March 31, 2025 • 37 mins
In this powerful episode of Her Time To Talk, Meagan Clark sits down with licensed professional counselor Julie, who practices in Missouri and Colorado, to explore the complexities of trauma healing. Julie shares her insights on trauma treatment and the various therapeutic modalities available to support healing.
The conversation delves into the nuanced experiences of religious trauma, particularly within evangelical settings, and how deeply intertwined politics and religion can create lasting emotional harm. Julie courageously reflects on her personal journey of leaving evangelicalism and how it informed her passion for helping others navigate their own healing.
Listeners will gain valuable knowledge on:
- The most effective trauma treatment modalities, including EMDR and Somatic Experiencing
- How trauma is stored in the body and why traditional talk therapy may not be enough
- Recognizing the signs of trauma in clients who may feel “all talked out” from previous therapy
- Religious trauma as a form of intimate psychological harm
- The challenges of navigating family relationships and differing political beliefs
- How empathy can foster connection, even in the face of ideological divides
Julie also emphasizes the importance of building trust and safety with a therapist before beginning trauma work. Her compassionate approach encourages listeners to explore therapy in a way that honors their agency and healing journey.
If you or someone you know is struggling with trauma, religious trauma, or navigating difficult family dynamics, this episode provides valuable guidance and hope.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Jesus and John Wayne by Kristen CoEB Dume: Buy here
- The MEND Project (for recognizing and healing from emotional abuse): Learn more
- Power and Control Wheel (for understanding abusive dynamics): View here
- NPR Episode on Conspiracy Theories and Family Relationships: Listen here
- BITE Model of Cult Mind Control (to recognize manipulative religious or political influence): Download here
Stay Connected:
- Website: www.hertimetherapy.com
- Patreon: Support the Podcast
Join us in this heartfelt conversation as we explore the power of healing, self-discovery, and reclaiming autonomy in the face of trauma. Tune in and be inspired by Julie’s story and expertise.
Stay Connected + Support the Show
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- Visit our website to connect with a therapist or learn more
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If this episode moved you, empowered you, or taught you something new—be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share with someone who needs to hear it.
This is your time. Your story matters. Your voice is powerful. And your mental health is worth prioritizing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meagan (00:28):
thank you so much, Julie, for being here.
I'm really excited for ourconversation today.
I'm hoping we can start out byjust having you introduce
yourself and tell our listeners,who you are and what you do.
Julie (00:40):
Thanks Megan.
It's good to be here.
My name is Julie.
No, I'm a licensed professionalcounselor in Missouri and
Colorado.
I live in Missouri now, but seeclients in both states.
I love working with folks whostruggle a lot with anxiety.
PTSD, I'm trained in EMDR fromthe Mei Burger Institute, and I
(01:00):
really love using that modalitywith clients to help process
trauma.
Meagan (01:04):
Great.
It sounds like you have so muchto offer and a lot of training
as well as I'm sure, a lot ofpersonal experience informing
what you do.
So the main topic that we arediving into today is trauma.
And I'm wondering if you cangive our listeners just an
overview from your experience ofsome of the maybe most popular
and most effective traumatreatment modalities out there.
(01:27):
'cause when you know a client isreally realizing they're
struggling with traumaticevents, they jump onto Google
and they start Googling what isit that they should start
Googling and what is it thatthey're probably coming across?
Julie (01:40):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think a lot of people willcome across EMDR specifically
because it's a modality that'sbeen around for about 40 years.
Has a lot of studies behind it,is considered the.
Trauma treatment of choice by alot of organizations like the
American PsychologicalAssociation, the World Health
Organization veteransAssociations like EMDR for PTSD.
(02:03):
Somatic Experiencing is anotherone that I think clients will
come across and somaticexperiencing in EMD are similar
in really focusing on where youfeel sensations.
Your body.
And I think that's an importantpiece for trauma work because
one of the things that traumadoes is it disconnects us from
the felt sense of our emotionsand our sensations in our body.
(02:27):
Can be very disorienting andscary.
So I think that would probablybe the two things that come to
mind when people start talkingabout trauma work.
Because trauma is stored in ourbodies and in our emotions a
different way.
So these other modalities aredifferent than traditional talk
therapy, which, person on thecouch sort of thinking about
(02:48):
therapy, going to therapy, thenI'm just gonna have to talk.
And that's not necessarily howit will look.
Meagan (02:54):
I'm sure that comes as a big relief to a lot of people to
hear that there are forms ofcounseling out there where it's
not just, I have to go and spillall of the deepest, most painful
things that have happened to me.
Because that can be reallyintimidating and can even keep
people from seeking therapy inthe first place.
Julie (03:11):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And there is another school ofthought with trauma work called
Prolonged Exposure Therapy.
I don't use it.
It's a little controversialbecause it can be very
overwhelming to have to detailthe traumatic event.
What I love about EMDR is that.
You can get as deep into detailas you want to.
(03:32):
And oftentimes you don't evenreally have to.
I notice when people arehesitant to begin EMDR work,
they're afraid that they'regoing to be right back in that
experience.
But there is one foot in thepresent.
EMDR therapist and one foot inthe past, and you always are
holding this dual attention andit's important to have a sense
(03:52):
of safety with your therapisttoo before you even begin trauma
work.
Like that rapport that you arebuilding with your therapist and
you feeling safe is the mostimportant piece to moving
forward, I think with any traumatherapy.
Meagan (04:06):
Yeah, I agree with any therapy in general.
We wanna have that really greatrapport and that trust with your
therapist and we don't have to.
Expect clients to just dive inand tell us their deepest
secrets on day one.
It's often many sessions inbefore we get to that kind of
work.
And that maybe needs to benormalized a bit more.
Julie (04:25):
Yeah, I think, yeah, exactly.
Meagan (04:27):
Yeah.
So before we dive too much intoEMDR, since that's one of your
main modalities that youpractice for trauma and really
what that looks like and whatclients can expect out of an
EMDR session, I'm curious if youcan talk a little bit about some
of the presenting issues thatyou see your clients come in
with that help you realize, oh,you know what, this person is
(04:48):
suffering from trauma.
They may benefit from EMDR or,exposure or CPT or one of these
other many modalities that areout there.
You as a clinician, what do yousee that just helps you realize
oh, this is what they'reexperiencing?
Julie (05:02):
A lot of times I notice.
Clients who have been in therapyfor a while and they've been in
talk therapy, feel like they'reall talked out about their
trauma.
What more can I actually sayabout this that I haven't said
already?
Those folks I feel are reallygreat candidates for these more
specific modalities.
I know less about cognitiveprocessing therapy and less a
(05:24):
lot about prolonged exposure,but about EMDR and the more
somatic experiencing.
Modalities.
I know more about Getting intothe body and the feelings is the
missing piece really, becausethey've been so cognitive for so
long of I can't change the past.
I can't think differently aboutthe past.
How do I feel differently aboutthe past and what has happened
(05:47):
to me?
And there's some suggestion thatwhen people experience a
traumatic memory, their brain.
Thinks that it's in the presentmoment, that it's the posterior
cingulate cortex.
The PCC is being activated andthat's the part of our brain
that daydreams or is reallyintrospective.
So EMDR can put it where itneeds to go.
(06:08):
It's like a memory that is sadthat I remember and I'm not
really overwhelmed by in thehippocampus.
So I'm looking for clients whofeel like they're at the end of
their rope a little bit.
With therapy and also.
Usually we'll list a lot oftraumatic events.
And the definition of trauma is.
(06:29):
Has it caused you to stress?
So some clients might say mychildhood was pretty good.
It wasn't too bad, except for,and then they'll list things
that they don't think were bigdeals, but were emotionally
abusive or they were enmeshedwith a parent or any number of
things.
They were in a family with manychildren and their older
siblings sucked away a lot oftheir parents' time and
(06:49):
attention, and they didn't gettheir needs met.
Now they're very anxious.
So I think it's a long.
On ramp for getting to wherewe're gonna start EMDR therapy
of really focusing hard on whatthe clients presenting issues
are, and then following thatthread back to some earlier
woundings that maybe they didn'trealize were woundings.
Meagan (07:12):
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
And I think I see that with alot of my clients as well.
Especially women at her time.
We specialize in treating womenand I find that women tend to
downplay a lot of the traumathat they've experienced.
Julie (07:26):
Absolutely.
Meagan (07:27):
Yeah, unless it's something really overt like a
car accident or a rape orsomething very obviously
singularly traumatic like that,they tend to downplay all of the
little t traumas as a therapistlike to call it, throughout
their life.
And maybe that's the place that.
The more traditional talktherapy has to maybe start in
(07:48):
therapy and just explore yourlife, your beliefs, your
childhood, so that we can startnaming some things as being
traumatic or, the combination ofthem becoming traumatic so that
once you have a betterunderstanding of that, you can
then seek out this higher leveltrauma treatment like EMDR.
Because you're right, peopletend to get to this place of all
(08:09):
of this has happened to me andI'm struggling in these specific
ways, but now what?
Because I know it happened.
I get why I am like this, butnow what do I do about it?
Julie (08:18):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Which is why I love thesemodalities that really focus on
the body and the sensations inthe body.
Because before a feeling is afeeling that you can even name.
It's a sensation in your body.
So asking someone that andgetting them reconnected to
their body, slows them downwhere they realize, oh, I am in
(08:39):
the dentist chair and my handsare sweaty.
It's also a way to ground themin the present moment.
So we're using a lot of thesetools just from mindfulness
based stress reduction too, andwithin these trauma modalities,
so that.
While we're talking aboutdifficult things, we are
teaching lots and lots of copingskills and just skills that are
(09:00):
good to have to deal with.
The stresses of life right nowthat are used outside of
sessions too.
Meagan (09:06):
Yeah.
So it seems like you have areally solid understanding of
trauma and you're clearly verypassionate about helping women
to understand all the differentways that they experience it and
it pops up in their life, andultimately what we can do about
it.
But I wanted to invite you for aminute to share a little bit
about what called you to do thiswork.
(09:27):
What in particular was inspiringfrom your life or maybe from
your academic journey thathelped you land on trauma as a
specialty?
Julie (09:35):
Thank you for asking that.
I was late to graduate school,so I had been a stay-at-home mom
for a solid 20 years and hadlived in evangelicalism for the
bulk of that.
And I had always wanted to be atherapist.
Back when I graduated fromundergrad in 2000, I had hoped
(09:55):
to just paused my life a littlebit to raise my four beautiful
children.
And once I got into grad schooland started learning more about,
I.
The effects of trauma and reallyrealizing that the system that I
had been raised in and lived inand perpetuated myself for so
(10:15):
long was inherently a source ofmy own trauma of religious
trauma, which is an area that Ispecialize in with folks.
Particularly when it comes tothe ways that women are expected
to be very submissive and gentleand quiet, and gender roles are
(10:35):
very strictly.
Prescribed very traditional,very 1950s housewife, barefoot
and pregnant sorts ofsituations.
And that always I always chafedagainst that, like internally,
there was always this part of methat was just like, oh, I just
don't like this.
Like this doesn't feel like me.
So I had decided one way to copewith that was to professionalize
(10:58):
being a homemaker.
And I got really good in thekitchen and really good at
cleaning, and I really, read allthe child development books and
tried to really throw myselfinto it full bore.
But there's always that nigglingbit, in the back of my mind of
this doesn't, it doesn't feelright to be controlling people,
which is essentially what.
(11:18):
White Evangelicalism is aboutcontrol and hierarchy and
authority, and really is whatbrought us to this political
moment, essentially, of DonaldTrump being elected the
President.
One of my favorite books aboutthis is Jesus and John Wayne by
Kristen CoEB Dume.
She's a, an evangelicalChristian herself, actually at
Calvin College.
(11:39):
She's a history professor, andshe wrote this book in 2020.
And it goes all the way back tolike late forties, early fifties
when Richard Nixon first ran forpresident.
And the ways that whiteevangelicalism has needed to
have a cause.
So it hitch its wagon to racism.
And then in the sixties when thecivil rights movement, destroyed
(12:02):
essentially in theory it wassupposed to, right?
Freeing, marginalizedcommunities needed something
else.
And then.
Decided it would be abortion andthe way that religion and
politics have been sointertwined and it's really
something I didn't understandand realize for a very long
time.
But it's a very intimate thingto be given a message by someone
(12:22):
in authority who's usually a manwho says, God told me that you
need to live your life this way.
And if you don't.
Consequences are grave, you willgo to hell.
That is a very intimate trauma.
That in some of my clients is onpar with sexual trauma.
(12:44):
Like your very sense of self andyour safety and the desperation
that you feel to live accordingto the fundamentalist religion
and truly Megan, likefundamentalism can look in which
way, it can be veryleft-leaning, it can be very
right-leaning.
It can be any religion, anyguru, anyone who says, I have
the right way to prescribe yourlife and you need to do it my
(13:05):
way.
So that you're safe and happyand whole is a problem.
So I see a lot of overlapbetween coercive controlling
behaviors and intimaterelationships and the ways that
religion can take that sameauthority and press that
authority in on the lives ofwomen particularly and children
(13:27):
within that system.
So that's why I love healing.
From it myself and helping otherpeople to realize that they have
agency and choice.
Meagan (13:38):
That's incredibly profound.
And you're right, this is aparticularly apt and important
time to be having thisdiscussion and for people to
understand and even just hearthe term religious trauma.
I know the first time I heardit, I had never really thought
of those two words being puttogether in the same sentence,
let alone as one concept.
(13:59):
Religion is supposed to be this,spiritual, intimate, beautiful.
Thing that is guided by moralityand a sense of rightness, and it
can so easily be turned andcorrupted into a tool of
control.
With religion being soinherently patriarchal, it
definitely becomes a majoroppressive force for women.
(14:21):
And we are seeing that across.
Every news platform and it'sdefinitely the most extreme
situation I've seen in mylifetime of that being
weaponized.
Julie (14:30):
Agreed.
And so I think as clinicians, wehave to be so careful when we're
talking with folks aboutspirituality and religion to not
be, my job as a therapist is notto deconvert.
Every client who comes to me atall, and there are many
congregations, more progressivecongregations who are very much,
(14:51):
Advocating for marginalizedcommunities and for elevating
women to their rightful place.
So I don't, I wanna make itreally clear that I'm not
anti-religion, even though Idon't consider myself a person
of faith anymore.
I can understand that faith andspirituality serves a purpose.
It brings meaning, it givespeople a story, it gives
(15:12):
community that cannot be matchedin any other circumstance.
In our culture, there is nothinglike.
Being an LDS person, moving to anew town, getting connected with
that local LDS congregation whohelps unload your truck, who
helps unpack packages and bringsyou food and your kids have
friends and you have momfriends, and all of those things
(15:34):
and it's beautiful how a faithcommunity can create such a
community.
Oftentimes though, it's at acost.
You have to subscribe to thisvery specific.
Specific set of beliefs aboutsexuality, about gender, about
femininity and masculinity,about how you spend your money,
what you watch, what you read,all of that stuff.
(15:55):
It comes at a really high cost,and that's where I think it's
just unfortunate and difficult.
there's a lot of grief involvedin leaving that behind, and
that's been my experience forsure.
Meagan (16:06):
Absolutely.
That makes a lot of sense.
Why when those from the outsidelook in and see, oh, there,
these systems seem inherentlyoppressive, why not just leave?
You're leaving a lot of the goodparts that are part of it too.
It's never so black and white.
Julie (16:22):
Exactly.
Just like if a woman is in adomestic violence situation,
even one where he doesn't lay ahand on her.
There's emotional abuse andfinancial abuse and all the
things in the power and controlwe would talk about.
It's very easy to say, why don'tyou just leave?
She also has some financialstability.
She has her kids, she's a bufferfor them There's just so many
nuances and I think that's oneof the reasons I love therapy is
(16:44):
that it gives us a chance toexplore that and the client
really has the floor.
They decide where this is going.
What they need.
And for someone who has beenhistorically disempowered,
that's wonderful.
It feels so good.
Meagan (16:58):
Yeah.
Completely new.
We actually gave a talk lastweek to a group of women in
downtown Denver where we focusedon healthy relationships, and
one of the big things we talkedabout is all the different types
of abuse.
Julie (17:11):
Mm-hmm.
Meagan (17:11):
For some reason, we have gotten to a place in society
where.
We all know physical abuse isabuse.
And we're starting to get thesense of psychological abuse,
especially with movies like GoneGirl who have come out that
really highlight whatgaslighting looks like.
We're seeing gaslighting tacticsin the news.
We're seeing a lot of it becomevery prominent.
So that psychological and thatphysical abuse, we have our
(17:35):
heads wrapped around.
But it's really interesting interms of trauma work with women
that we also need to look atthese concepts of.
Emotional abuse, financialabuse, isolation, all of these
other elements that come up sostrongly for them that they may
have never even themselveslabeled as trauma.
Julie (17:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
And they're all marked bycoercive control, every one of
them.
So a lot of times what I seewith women is I pull up the
power and control wheel and Isay, listen.
These are all things thatproceed physical and sexual
violence.
They don't guarantee thatphysical and sexual violence are
gonna occur, but if it ever doesoccur, lots of these things have
(18:16):
been happening to variousdegrees, and I'll just, I won't
read it to them.
I'll just say, look at it.
What do you notice inevitably.
Multiple categories and peoplejust don't know.
A website I love for this whenit comes to emotional abuse is
the MEND project.
They have wonderful resourcesabout what this looks like and
the things that controllingpeople tend to say.
Meagan (18:38):
Once we have gone through that personal
exploration of the trauma thatyou've experienced, a next step
may be a higher level type ofmodality, like EMDR treatment.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout what a client can expect
in an EMDR session, then whatit's really all about, what the
focus of EMDR is versus maybeCBT.
Julie (18:59):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And there are aspects ofcognitive behavioral therapy
within EMDR because we aretrying to change negative
cognitions, negative beliefs andreplace them with positive
beliefs.
But we're not just doing that.
Like, Okay, just thinkdifferently.
Just do it.
Just do it.
You know, That feels veryinvalidating sometimes.
And oh, if only it were so easy.
(19:20):
I tell people when they wanna doEMDR.
As I say, first of all, there isa very long preparation period,
at least that's for me, with myclients, of getting you used to
feeling good in your body.
You know what anxiety feelslike, you know what depression
feels like.
You know what it feels like toping back and forth between
(19:41):
these two things.
What does it feel like to feelgood?
So we're really tapping into alot of visualization exercises,
a lot of breathing things, a lotof body things that doing with a
therapist.
Who is co-regulating yournervous system even virtually
with you can be very effective.
I give tons of tools in betweensessions.
(20:02):
I have recorded voice memos withspecific exercises that prompt a
client to tap bilaterally.
I haven't mentioned that part ofEMDR.
The big part of it is thisbilateral stimulation of your
brain where you're crossing themidline either through.
Sound tapping or eye movement.
Eye movement is traditionallywhat a lot of the studies are
(20:24):
around, but I've had goodoutcomes with both of these
other ways.
You can also use buzzers.
That's a little harder for thoseof us who do telehealth to have
buzzers, but I've used buzzersas a client before and they're
interesting.
But you're thinking about thismemory while you are doing the
bilateral stimulation, and itusually lasts about 30 to 60
seconds.
(20:44):
To be trained in EMDR often tellclients is like being taught a
flow chart.
If the client says this, you dothis.
If the client says this, you dothis.
So your most important job asthe EMDR client is to give me an
accurate read on your internalexperience.
And we've taken a long time toget you more oriented with your
internal experience through allof these, what I call EMDR
(21:07):
resourcing tools and voice memoswith guided meditations and
different things of when to tapso that you don't have to put a
lot of effort into, what did shetell me to do?
You can just turn on theexercise.
So we spend a lot of time doingthat, and we're always going at
the pace of the client.
They are always free to stop atany time.
It's following a very specificprotocol.
(21:28):
So it feels really differentthan talk therapy.
I ask a lot of very specificquestions.
That lights up the topic thatwe're working on, which could be
a memory an issue.
It really, the sky's the limitwith what you want to be working
on in that moment.
And I don't do a whole lot oftalking.
I'm not giving a whole lot ofdeep reflection or insight for
(21:49):
you.
I'm guiding you, but I'm settingup the situation so that your
brain can make the connections,and that's so much more
powerful.
We all know this.
We felt this when we're beingtaught something.
Someone can tell us.
But if we experience it or if wecome up with it on our own,
there's just so much moremeaning behind that.
So that's another thing I thinkthat especially clients who have
(22:12):
done a lot of talk therapy aresurprised by, they'll be doing
the tapping for the 45 seconds.
I'll say, take a deep breath.
I'll ask them, what are younoticing or what's coming up for
you?
And then they'll tell me somethings and sometimes I think
they expect me to say something.
And I'll just say, go with that.
Sometimes I do say something,but mostly I say, let's go with
(22:32):
that.
Go with that, see what comes upfor you.
And then we're just at it again.
During that time, a lot of timeswhat will happen is that folks
will start to cry.
They might feel a littleoverwhelmed.
In that case, as an EMDR trainedtherapist, I have interventions,
to help ground you and bring youback into the present moment and
feeling good.
(22:52):
We get to that processing pointafter a very long time.
I.
Of getting comfortable together.
Meagan (22:59):
That's a really great explanation of, we're not just
diving straight into the hardstuff, especially with EMDR, you
as a client and also as atherapist.
We don't really talk that muchduring the process.
We don't have to say muchs morelike creating the environment
for the body and the mind to dothe work that it's designed to
do.
I think with a lot of myclients, both those I've done
(23:21):
EMDR with and otherwise, I liketo remind them that,
approximately 70% of people gothrough these really traumatic
events and like collectivetraumas, like hurricanes and
really big things like that too,and get through it just fine
without developing PPSD symptomsbecause we're meant to adapt and
be able to handle.
(23:41):
Bad things that happen in life,we're meant to ride the waves.
So when that process doesn'twork right, and we get stuck and
we develop, P-T-S-D-E-M-D-R isone of many modalities that can
help you slow down and give thebody a process to reset and
actually heal and move thememories where they need to be.
It does not always take tellingthe whole trauma story to
(24:03):
actually do that work.
Julie (24:05):
Absolutely.
And it's funny, when I start toteach clients some of these
vagus nerve, we, I haven't evenmentioned polyvagal theory.
That's another modality I pullfrom a lot.
Lot.
Did you a pull up your episode?
I know you do a whole episode onthat, but that this tapping and
this humming and this bilateralstimulation, those are often
things that people have beendoing and they didn't realize
that they've been doing it.
All this time and I say, look atwhat your body already knows
(24:28):
that you need.
And that's very validating forthem too.
Meagan (24:31):
That's really powerful.
Yeah.
So to encapsulate EMDR, which bythe way we should have said
this, for those who don't knowwhat EMDR stands for, it stands
for I Movement desensitizationand reprocessing.
And even though it's, itliterally has it in the name eye
movement we reprocess memoriesthrough that bilateral
stimulation that.
(24:52):
Eye movement is just one of manytypes.
Like Julie mentioned, there'sthe tapping on your shoulders
that we call the butterfly tap.
You can hold buzzers in yourhand.
You can even do it through audiowhere you have one little beep
in one ear and then the otherany kind of stimulation that
crosses the center line of yourbody can help this system come
online and do the processing.
But in that whole process ofEMDR, we really do start with.
(25:16):
Coping skills, coping andregulating and feeling good in
your body and developing trustwith your therapist for many
sessions before we ever have todive into the actual trauma
memory.
I'm wondering how long that'swhat we call resourcing that
first phase where we're justlearning to feel good before we
dive into the hard stuff.
How long does that often lastfor you with the women that
(25:37):
you've treated?
Julie (25:38):
Depends.
I have some clients I've beenseeing for years and we already
really comfortable with eachother.
And so once they're able tostart really using the
resourcing.
Exercises.
It doesn't last very long.
I would say with a new clientwho says EMDR protocol, I want
it right now.
I would probably spend three orfour sessions.
And with EMDR too.
(25:59):
I like to have regular weeklysessions where I've even had
good results, doing a session aday over three days.
So we get this momentum going.
That's really been useful ifsomeone can handle that with
their time and their moneysituation.
But starting EMDR aroundsomething is like Barb Berger,
the person who trained both ofus, I think.
(26:20):
Says that starting in EMDR.
Therapy is like you need tofinish your antibiotics.
You need to take your 10 days ofamoxicillin uhhuh if you don't
want the infection to come back.
So really, once you're in itit's good to stay in it until
you really do get to a suds ofzero.
SUDS stands for Subjective Unitof Distress.
It's a zero to 10 scale that youuse to say.
(26:44):
This is how much distress thisis causing me.
10 is the worst.
Zero is no distress or neutral.
So there's also, during theresourcing time there's time to
learn the lingo.
EMDR has a lot of lingo that youlearn that I'm just throwing
around, Everyone who's listeningshould know this.
So there's a lot of educating, Iguess that comes with it.
And I think a good, the EMDRtherapist is going to educate
you.
The times that I have hadclients who say, I tried it, but
(27:07):
it didn't work for me, or Ididn't understand it, the
therapist really just jumped inand didn't give a whole lot of
education around it.
And so that's a really importantpiece for me is that you know
exactly what you're doing andwhy we're doing it, and I think
that's when you have betteroutcomes too.
Meagan (27:23):
Absolutely.
I love what you said there aboutthe consistency piece and the
antibiotic metaphor is perfectfor that.
No matter really what type ofmodality you're using and what
type of counseling style you'rein, it is good to stay
consistent and give it a chancebefore giving feedback to your
therapist that this.
Really isn't feeling like it'sworking and what do we need to
shift here?
(27:43):
So I know we're getting close toour time here, but I'm wanting
to explore a little bit aroundreligious trauma and why EMDR
therapy may be particularly goodfor women who've experienced
religious trauma since it'sbecoming so prevalent.
Is there maybe some othercounseling that you would
recommend first before EMDR?
Or can this be something that ishelpful for people that are
(28:06):
realizing they are in thatreligious trauma space or
struggling with our exposure toit through the media right now?
Julie (28:13):
I think starting with EMDR would be perfectly okay.
There are a lot of.
Therapists who are specializingin this now besides just me in
the world, reclamationCollective has a lot of
resources around this.
There's a therapist directory ontheir website where you can find
someone who's in your area.
I used to be on that directory,I don't think I am anymore.
But they also have supportgroups you can find.
(28:34):
A lot of this can be healingdone in community, which is
helpful.
So a quick Google search you canfind.
Lots of online things.
I wish that there were more inperson opportunities for people
because churches are you're justthere in person every week.
It's very ritualistic.
You're making connections andrelationships, and it's very
(28:54):
hard to lose those.
But E-M-G-R-I think is a greatplace to start because a lot of
times people are raised in thesefaiths and it's such a part of
their family history.
How they make sense of theirchildhood was through this lens
of faith.
And so when someone comes to meand they're very anxious and
they don't know why, becausetheir childhood was fine, and
(29:15):
then we're digging into thingsand realize that I was really
scared of hell.
Growing up, the preacher wouldtalk about hell and I didn't
wanna go there, and so I raisedmy hand and accepted Jesus into
my heart, but I didn't know whatI was doing.
I just knew I didn't wanna go tohell.
That can be something we processin EMDR.
Meagan (29:34):
That's a really powerful example that even through the
adult lens of looking back onwhat you've been conditioned to
believe and what you are justnaturally participating in,
because your whole family unitdid now, if we sit and look at
it and you're asking questionsthat maybe family is.
Not comfortable with you askingor preachers are not comfortable
with you asking.
Therapy can be a good space thatis actually safe to explore
(29:57):
those things through EMDR andmultiple different modalities.
So from your perspective and thehistory that you have had
getting out of an evangelicalchurch situation, what kind of
advice would you give to thoseof us now who are maybe
struggling with our faith orstruggling in even our family
units because of the waypolitics and religion is being
(30:19):
so intertwined right now and theway it's causing a lot of
division, what advice can youput out there?
Julie (30:24):
I think finding people who are willing to hold that
space for you to ask those hardquestions without being
offended.
And there are plenty of peoplewho are willing to do that.
Meagan (30:41):
This is something coming up in my sessions, a lot of I
can't believe my.
Father thinks this way and Idon't know how to continue a
relationship with a person who'stelling me I should, not be able
to have access to birth controlor a job, or, a lot of these
things are being put on thequestion or on the table now
that is really causing a lot ofinternal turmoil and turmoil in
(31:03):
families and as clients.
Bring that up to me.
None of us have a great answer.
Even the therapists arestruggling with this too.
It's true.
No, I think I was listening toNPR one morning and I wish I
could remember who they wereinterviewing, but they were
talking about how the only wayto bridge this divide between
(31:26):
family members who really are inthe mega cult, it's a cult.
The bite model of cult mindcontrol of how information and
expectations are pressed in onsomeone To stay in the cult is
to have empathy.
For the person who is in thecult.
So you could throw facts at themall day.
You could get angry with themall day.
(31:47):
But that gentleness and thatempathy, which I define empathy
as the ability to understandanother person's perspective,
even if you don't agree withthem, that you can say, I can
see why you as a white.
50, 60-year-old man would feelthe way that you do about this
situation, that it would feellike the government is too big
(32:09):
and it's bloated and it'swasteful, and we need to cut
things.
Like I can understand why youwould feel that way.
That makes sense to me.
That is not me saying, and Iagree with you.
And you're right.
It is that's not empathy.
So that I think is probably thechallenge for us.
And it feels like a big askbecause the other side is
(32:30):
antipathy.
In fact, there are people withinEvangelicalism.
I.
Namely this comes out of Moscow,Idaho, with Doug Wilson
specifically, and another guywho wrote this book, I can't
remember, but it was called TheSin of Empathy.
Like empathy is a sin Wow.
To these people that we are crethey think that men are being
soft and women need to be putback in their place.
(32:51):
And it's like handmade talestuff.
To the max.
So we have to be the, when italways feels like we are the
bigger people.
And it's really exhausting.
It really is, and I thinkespecially in the therapy space,
it's important that clients knowthey can come into that space
and express This is so hard.
Yeah.
I wanna be the quote unquotebigger person and show empathy
(33:16):
towards the 60, 70-year-oldwhite male who is voting in
favor of what he thinks is gonnabe the best for the economy
because he's facing retirement.
And that makes sense, and I getthat.
And it's really damaging andhurtful that they also voted
against my reproductive autonomyin healthcare.
Both things can be true at once,and that is another thing we
(33:38):
teach a lot in therapy.
Yes.
Is two things can be true atonce.
So just knowing that we can saytherapy is a space to come and
grapple with these seeminglyopposing ideals and recognize
just the toughness of how tonavigate all of this and that
we're all in it together rightnow.
Julie (33:54):
And that's another thing I think is finding your
community of people.
Who feel the same way and peoplewho can let you vent, Because
venting to your dad who is aTrump supporter is not really an
option.
So how do you continue to buildthat community and even hold
those boundaries too?
If there are people that youcannot discuss this with, then
say, so I just don't, that's notwhere I want our relationship to
(34:16):
go, which is another thing Ilove about therapy is we have
lots and lots of ideas aboutkeeping and setting good
boundaries.
Meagan (34:22):
And being able to maintain relationships, even
though there's gonna be an areathat's maybe off limits, right?
Yeah.
But it seems like a lot of thiskind of comes down to, with our
main topic and focus here beingtrauma, that trauma tends to
push us to isolate.
And one of the best things wecan do to heal and combat it is
to find community, whetherthat's in therapy.
(34:43):
And spiritual organizations andfriendships, colleagues.
And the list goes on.
Thank you so much for coming andsharing a bit of your story and
your wisdom with us today,Julie.
I think this topic wasabsolutely so timely and so
needed, and I just wanted toinvite you to share any final
reflections or things that youwould like women to know out
(35:03):
there that are struggling withtrauma and looking to maybe seek
help through therapy.
Julie (35:08):
Yeah, I think the hardest part sometimes is trying to find
it, having the courage to makethe call, send the email, try
different therapists, haveconsultation calls, see who's a
good fit for you across all themodalities, no matter what you
choose, you feeling connectedand heard and seen by your
therapist is the number onepredictor of success in therapy.
So you can be choosy with whoyou spend time with and who you
(35:30):
wanna talk to.
And that's a really wonderfulthing because women so often
just feel so disempowered.
Meagan (35:37):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that so much.
Be choosy.
Get all kinds of consultationsbefore making your choice on who
you're gonna spend your timewith and your heart with, and
your vulnerable side.
Julie (35:48):
Absolutely.
And if it's not working, change,and that's okay.
You have more choices than yourealize right now.
Meagan (35:54):
Yeah, and what a good cornerstone of especially
feminist therapy where we're sofocused on women's empowerment
and choice, even in the therapyspace is a key part.
thank you so much, Julie, for being here.
I'm really excited for ourconversation today.
I'm hoping we can start out byjust having you introduce
yourself and tell our listeners,who you are and what you do.
Julie (00:40):
Thanks Megan.
It's good to be here.
My name is Julie.
No, I'm a licensed professionalcounselor in Missouri and
Colorado.
I live in Missouri now, but seeclients in both states.
I love working with folks whostruggle a lot with anxiety.
PTSD, I'm trained in EMDR fromthe Mei Burger Institute, and I
(01:00):
really love using that modalitywith clients to help process
trauma.
Meagan (01:04):
Great.
It sounds like you have so muchto offer and a lot of training
as well as I'm sure, a lot ofpersonal experience informing
what you do.
So the main topic that we arediving into today is trauma.
And I'm wondering if you cangive our listeners just an
overview from your experience ofsome of the maybe most popular
and most effective traumatreatment modalities out there.
(01:27):
'cause when you know a client isreally realizing they're
struggling with traumaticevents, they jump onto Google
and they start Googling what isit that they should start
Googling and what is it thatthey're probably coming across?
Julie (01:40):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think a lot of people willcome across EMDR specifically
because it's a modality that'sbeen around for about 40 years.
Has a lot of studies behind it,is considered the.
Trauma treatment of choice by alot of organizations like the
American PsychologicalAssociation, the World Health
Organization veteransAssociations like EMDR for PTSD.
(02:03):
Somatic Experiencing is anotherone that I think clients will
come across and somaticexperiencing in EMD are similar
in really focusing on where youfeel sensations.
Your body.
And I think that's an importantpiece for trauma work because
one of the things that traumadoes is it disconnects us from
the felt sense of our emotionsand our sensations in our body.
(02:27):
Can be very disorienting andscary.
So I think that would probablybe the two things that come to
mind when people start talkingabout trauma work.
Because trauma is stored in ourbodies and in our emotions a
different way.
So these other modalities aredifferent than traditional talk
therapy, which, person on thecouch sort of thinking about
(02:48):
therapy, going to therapy, thenI'm just gonna have to talk.
And that's not necessarily howit will look.
Meagan (02:54):
I'm sure that comes as a big relief to a lot of people to
hear that there are forms ofcounseling out there where it's
not just, I have to go and spillall of the deepest, most painful
things that have happened to me.
Because that can be reallyintimidating and can even keep
people from seeking therapy inthe first place.
Julie (03:11):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And there is another school ofthought with trauma work called
Prolonged Exposure Therapy.
I don't use it.
It's a little controversialbecause it can be very
overwhelming to have to detailthe traumatic event.
What I love about EMDR is that.
You can get as deep into detailas you want to.
(03:32):
And oftentimes you don't evenreally have to.
I notice when people arehesitant to begin EMDR work,
they're afraid that they'regoing to be right back in that
experience.
But there is one foot in thepresent.
EMDR therapist and one foot inthe past, and you always are
holding this dual attention andit's important to have a sense
(03:52):
of safety with your therapisttoo before you even begin trauma
work.
Like that rapport that you arebuilding with your therapist and
you feeling safe is the mostimportant piece to moving
forward, I think with any traumatherapy.
Meagan (04:06):
Yeah, I agree with any therapy in general.
We wanna have that really greatrapport and that trust with your
therapist and we don't have to.
Expect clients to just dive inand tell us their deepest
secrets on day one.
It's often many sessions inbefore we get to that kind of
work.
And that maybe needs to benormalized a bit more.
Julie (04:25):
Yeah, I think, yeah, exactly.
Meagan (04:27):
Yeah.
So before we dive too much intoEMDR, since that's one of your
main modalities that youpractice for trauma and really
what that looks like and whatclients can expect out of an
EMDR session, I'm curious if youcan talk a little bit about some
of the presenting issues thatyou see your clients come in
with that help you realize, oh,you know what, this person is
(04:48):
suffering from trauma.
They may benefit from EMDR or,exposure or CPT or one of these
other many modalities that areout there.
You as a clinician, what do yousee that just helps you realize
oh, this is what they'reexperiencing?
Julie (05:02):
A lot of times I notice.
Clients who have been in therapyfor a while and they've been in
talk therapy, feel like they'reall talked out about their
trauma.
What more can I actually sayabout this that I haven't said
already?
Those folks I feel are reallygreat candidates for these more
specific modalities.
I know less about cognitiveprocessing therapy and less a
(05:24):
lot about prolonged exposure,but about EMDR and the more
somatic experiencing.
Modalities.
I know more about Getting intothe body and the feelings is the
missing piece really, becausethey've been so cognitive for so
long of I can't change the past.
I can't think differently aboutthe past.
How do I feel differently aboutthe past and what has happened
(05:47):
to me?
And there's some suggestion thatwhen people experience a
traumatic memory, their brain.
Thinks that it's in the presentmoment, that it's the posterior
cingulate cortex.
The PCC is being activated andthat's the part of our brain
that daydreams or is reallyintrospective.
So EMDR can put it where itneeds to go.
(06:08):
It's like a memory that is sadthat I remember and I'm not
really overwhelmed by in thehippocampus.
So I'm looking for clients whofeel like they're at the end of
their rope a little bit.
With therapy and also.
Usually we'll list a lot oftraumatic events.
And the definition of trauma is.
(06:29):
Has it caused you to stress?
So some clients might say mychildhood was pretty good.
It wasn't too bad, except for,and then they'll list things
that they don't think were bigdeals, but were emotionally
abusive or they were enmeshedwith a parent or any number of
things.
They were in a family with manychildren and their older
siblings sucked away a lot oftheir parents' time and
(06:49):
attention, and they didn't gettheir needs met.
Now they're very anxious.
So I think it's a long.
On ramp for getting to wherewe're gonna start EMDR therapy
of really focusing hard on whatthe clients presenting issues
are, and then following thatthread back to some earlier
woundings that maybe they didn'trealize were woundings.
Meagan (07:12):
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
And I think I see that with alot of my clients as well.
Especially women at her time.
We specialize in treating womenand I find that women tend to
downplay a lot of the traumathat they've experienced.
Julie (07:26):
Absolutely.
Meagan (07:27):
Yeah, unless it's something really overt like a
car accident or a rape orsomething very obviously
singularly traumatic like that,they tend to downplay all of the
little t traumas as a therapistlike to call it, throughout
their life.
And maybe that's the place that.
The more traditional talktherapy has to maybe start in
(07:48):
therapy and just explore yourlife, your beliefs, your
childhood, so that we can startnaming some things as being
traumatic or, the combination ofthem becoming traumatic so that
once you have a betterunderstanding of that, you can
then seek out this higher leveltrauma treatment like EMDR.
Because you're right, peopletend to get to this place of all
(08:09):
of this has happened to me andI'm struggling in these specific
ways, but now what?
Because I know it happened.
I get why I am like this, butnow what do I do about it?
Julie (08:18):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Which is why I love thesemodalities that really focus on
the body and the sensations inthe body.
Because before a feeling is afeeling that you can even name.
It's a sensation in your body.
So asking someone that andgetting them reconnected to
their body, slows them downwhere they realize, oh, I am in
(08:39):
the dentist chair and my handsare sweaty.
It's also a way to ground themin the present moment.
So we're using a lot of thesetools just from mindfulness
based stress reduction too, andwithin these trauma modalities,
so that.
While we're talking aboutdifficult things, we are
teaching lots and lots of copingskills and just skills that are
(09:00):
good to have to deal with.
The stresses of life right nowthat are used outside of
sessions too.
Meagan (09:06):
Yeah.
So it seems like you have areally solid understanding of
trauma and you're clearly verypassionate about helping women
to understand all the differentways that they experience it and
it pops up in their life, andultimately what we can do about
it.
But I wanted to invite you for aminute to share a little bit
about what called you to do thiswork.
(09:27):
What in particular was inspiringfrom your life or maybe from
your academic journey thathelped you land on trauma as a
specialty?
Julie (09:35):
Thank you for asking that.
I was late to graduate school,so I had been a stay-at-home mom
for a solid 20 years and hadlived in evangelicalism for the
bulk of that.
And I had always wanted to be atherapist.
Back when I graduated fromundergrad in 2000, I had hoped
(09:55):
to just paused my life a littlebit to raise my four beautiful
children.
And once I got into grad schooland started learning more about,
I.
The effects of trauma and reallyrealizing that the system that I
had been raised in and lived inand perpetuated myself for so
(10:15):
long was inherently a source ofmy own trauma of religious
trauma, which is an area that Ispecialize in with folks.
Particularly when it comes tothe ways that women are expected
to be very submissive and gentleand quiet, and gender roles are
(10:35):
very strictly.
Prescribed very traditional,very 1950s housewife, barefoot
and pregnant sorts ofsituations.
And that always I always chafedagainst that, like internally,
there was always this part of methat was just like, oh, I just
don't like this.
Like this doesn't feel like me.
So I had decided one way to copewith that was to professionalize
(10:58):
being a homemaker.
And I got really good in thekitchen and really good at
cleaning, and I really, read allthe child development books and
tried to really throw myselfinto it full bore.
But there's always that nigglingbit, in the back of my mind of
this doesn't, it doesn't feelright to be controlling people,
which is essentially what.
(11:18):
White Evangelicalism is aboutcontrol and hierarchy and
authority, and really is whatbrought us to this political
moment, essentially, of DonaldTrump being elected the
President.
One of my favorite books aboutthis is Jesus and John Wayne by
Kristen CoEB Dume.
She's a, an evangelicalChristian herself, actually at
Calvin College.
(11:39):
She's a history professor, andshe wrote this book in 2020.
And it goes all the way back tolike late forties, early fifties
when Richard Nixon first ran forpresident.
And the ways that whiteevangelicalism has needed to
have a cause.
So it hitch its wagon to racism.
And then in the sixties when thecivil rights movement, destroyed
(12:02):
essentially in theory it wassupposed to, right?
Freeing, marginalizedcommunities needed something
else.
And then.
Decided it would be abortion andthe way that religion and
politics have been sointertwined and it's really
something I didn't understandand realize for a very long
time.
But it's a very intimate thingto be given a message by someone
(12:22):
in authority who's usually a manwho says, God told me that you
need to live your life this way.
And if you don't.
Consequences are grave, you willgo to hell.
That is a very intimate trauma.
That in some of my clients is onpar with sexual trauma.
(12:44):
Like your very sense of self andyour safety and the desperation
that you feel to live accordingto the fundamentalist religion
and truly Megan, likefundamentalism can look in which
way, it can be veryleft-leaning, it can be very
right-leaning.
It can be any religion, anyguru, anyone who says, I have
the right way to prescribe yourlife and you need to do it my
(13:05):
way.
So that you're safe and happyand whole is a problem.
So I see a lot of overlapbetween coercive controlling
behaviors and intimaterelationships and the ways that
religion can take that sameauthority and press that
authority in on the lives ofwomen particularly and children
(13:27):
within that system.
So that's why I love healing.
From it myself and helping otherpeople to realize that they have
agency and choice.
Meagan (13:38):
That's incredibly profound.
And you're right, this is aparticularly apt and important
time to be having thisdiscussion and for people to
understand and even just hearthe term religious trauma.
I know the first time I heardit, I had never really thought
of those two words being puttogether in the same sentence,
let alone as one concept.
(13:59):
Religion is supposed to be this,spiritual, intimate, beautiful.
Thing that is guided by moralityand a sense of rightness, and it
can so easily be turned andcorrupted into a tool of
control.
With religion being soinherently patriarchal, it
definitely becomes a majoroppressive force for women.
(14:21):
And we are seeing that across.
Every news platform and it'sdefinitely the most extreme
situation I've seen in mylifetime of that being
weaponized.
Julie (14:30):
Agreed.
And so I think as clinicians, wehave to be so careful when we're
talking with folks aboutspirituality and religion to not
be, my job as a therapist is notto deconvert.
Every client who comes to me atall, and there are many
congregations, more progressivecongregations who are very much,
(14:51):
Advocating for marginalizedcommunities and for elevating
women to their rightful place.
So I don't, I wanna make itreally clear that I'm not
anti-religion, even though Idon't consider myself a person
of faith anymore.
I can understand that faith andspirituality serves a purpose.
It brings meaning, it givespeople a story, it gives
(15:12):
community that cannot be matchedin any other circumstance.
In our culture, there is nothinglike.
Being an LDS person, moving to anew town, getting connected with
that local LDS congregation whohelps unload your truck, who
helps unpack packages and bringsyou food and your kids have
friends and you have momfriends, and all of those things
(15:34):
and it's beautiful how a faithcommunity can create such a
community.
Oftentimes though, it's at acost.
You have to subscribe to thisvery specific.
Specific set of beliefs aboutsexuality, about gender, about
femininity and masculinity,about how you spend your money,
what you watch, what you read,all of that stuff.
(15:55):
It comes at a really high cost,and that's where I think it's
just unfortunate and difficult.
there's a lot of grief involvedin leaving that behind, and
that's been my experience forsure.
Meagan (16:06):
Absolutely.
That makes a lot of sense.
Why when those from the outsidelook in and see, oh, there,
these systems seem inherentlyoppressive, why not just leave?
You're leaving a lot of the goodparts that are part of it too.
It's never so black and white.
Julie (16:22):
Exactly.
Just like if a woman is in adomestic violence situation,
even one where he doesn't lay ahand on her.
There's emotional abuse andfinancial abuse and all the
things in the power and controlwe would talk about.
It's very easy to say, why don'tyou just leave?
She also has some financialstability.
She has her kids, she's a bufferfor them There's just so many
nuances and I think that's oneof the reasons I love therapy is
(16:44):
that it gives us a chance toexplore that and the client
really has the floor.
They decide where this is going.
What they need.
And for someone who has beenhistorically disempowered,
that's wonderful.
It feels so good.
Meagan (16:58):
Yeah.
Completely new.
We actually gave a talk lastweek to a group of women in
downtown Denver where we focusedon healthy relationships, and
one of the big things we talkedabout is all the different types
of abuse.
Julie (17:11):
Mm-hmm.
Meagan (17:11):
For some reason, we have gotten to a place in society
where.
We all know physical abuse isabuse.
And we're starting to get thesense of psychological abuse,
especially with movies like GoneGirl who have come out that
really highlight whatgaslighting looks like.
We're seeing gaslighting tacticsin the news.
We're seeing a lot of it becomevery prominent.
So that psychological and thatphysical abuse, we have our
(17:35):
heads wrapped around.
But it's really interesting interms of trauma work with women
that we also need to look atthese concepts of.
Emotional abuse, financialabuse, isolation, all of these
other elements that come up sostrongly for them that they may
have never even themselveslabeled as trauma.
Julie (17:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
And they're all marked bycoercive control, every one of
them.
So a lot of times what I seewith women is I pull up the
power and control wheel and Isay, listen.
These are all things thatproceed physical and sexual
violence.
They don't guarantee thatphysical and sexual violence are
gonna occur, but if it ever doesoccur, lots of these things have
(18:16):
been happening to variousdegrees, and I'll just, I won't
read it to them.
I'll just say, look at it.
What do you notice inevitably.
Multiple categories and peoplejust don't know.
A website I love for this whenit comes to emotional abuse is
the MEND project.
They have wonderful resourcesabout what this looks like and
the things that controllingpeople tend to say.
Meagan (18:38):
Once we have gone through that personal
exploration of the trauma thatyou've experienced, a next step
may be a higher level type ofmodality, like EMDR treatment.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout what a client can expect
in an EMDR session, then whatit's really all about, what the
focus of EMDR is versus maybeCBT.
Julie (18:59):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And there are aspects ofcognitive behavioral therapy
within EMDR because we aretrying to change negative
cognitions, negative beliefs andreplace them with positive
beliefs.
But we're not just doing that.
Like, Okay, just thinkdifferently.
Just do it.
Just do it.
You know, That feels veryinvalidating sometimes.
And oh, if only it were so easy.
(19:20):
I tell people when they wanna doEMDR.
As I say, first of all, there isa very long preparation period,
at least that's for me, with myclients, of getting you used to
feeling good in your body.
You know what anxiety feelslike, you know what depression
feels like.
You know what it feels like toping back and forth between
(19:41):
these two things.
What does it feel like to feelgood?
So we're really tapping into alot of visualization exercises,
a lot of breathing things, a lotof body things that doing with a
therapist.
Who is co-regulating yournervous system even virtually
with you can be very effective.
I give tons of tools in betweensessions.
(20:02):
I have recorded voice memos withspecific exercises that prompt a
client to tap bilaterally.
I haven't mentioned that part ofEMDR.
The big part of it is thisbilateral stimulation of your
brain where you're crossing themidline either through.
Sound tapping or eye movement.
Eye movement is traditionallywhat a lot of the studies are
(20:24):
around, but I've had goodoutcomes with both of these
other ways.
You can also use buzzers.
That's a little harder for thoseof us who do telehealth to have
buzzers, but I've used buzzersas a client before and they're
interesting.
But you're thinking about thismemory while you are doing the
bilateral stimulation, and itusually lasts about 30 to 60
seconds.
(20:44):
To be trained in EMDR often tellclients is like being taught a
flow chart.
If the client says this, you dothis.
If the client says this, you dothis.
So your most important job asthe EMDR client is to give me an
accurate read on your internalexperience.
And we've taken a long time toget you more oriented with your
internal experience through allof these, what I call EMDR
(21:07):
resourcing tools and voice memoswith guided meditations and
different things of when to tapso that you don't have to put a
lot of effort into, what did shetell me to do?
You can just turn on theexercise.
So we spend a lot of time doingthat, and we're always going at
the pace of the client.
They are always free to stop atany time.
It's following a very specificprotocol.
(21:28):
So it feels really differentthan talk therapy.
I ask a lot of very specificquestions.
That lights up the topic thatwe're working on, which could be
a memory an issue.
It really, the sky's the limitwith what you want to be working
on in that moment.
And I don't do a whole lot oftalking.
I'm not giving a whole lot ofdeep reflection or insight for
(21:49):
you.
I'm guiding you, but I'm settingup the situation so that your
brain can make the connections,and that's so much more
powerful.
We all know this.
We felt this when we're beingtaught something.
Someone can tell us.
But if we experience it or if wecome up with it on our own,
there's just so much moremeaning behind that.
So that's another thing I thinkthat especially clients who have
(22:12):
done a lot of talk therapy aresurprised by, they'll be doing
the tapping for the 45 seconds.
I'll say, take a deep breath.
I'll ask them, what are younoticing or what's coming up for
you?
And then they'll tell me somethings and sometimes I think
they expect me to say something.
And I'll just say, go with that.
Sometimes I do say something,but mostly I say, let's go with
(22:32):
that.
Go with that, see what comes upfor you.
And then we're just at it again.
During that time, a lot of timeswhat will happen is that folks
will start to cry.
They might feel a littleoverwhelmed.
In that case, as an EMDR trainedtherapist, I have interventions,
to help ground you and bring youback into the present moment and
feeling good.
(22:52):
We get to that processing pointafter a very long time.
I.
Of getting comfortable together.
Meagan (22:59):
That's a really great explanation of, we're not just
diving straight into the hardstuff, especially with EMDR, you
as a client and also as atherapist.
We don't really talk that muchduring the process.
We don't have to say muchs morelike creating the environment
for the body and the mind to dothe work that it's designed to
do.
I think with a lot of myclients, both those I've done
(23:21):
EMDR with and otherwise, I liketo remind them that,
approximately 70% of people gothrough these really traumatic
events and like collectivetraumas, like hurricanes and
really big things like that too,and get through it just fine
without developing PPSD symptomsbecause we're meant to adapt and
be able to handle.
(23:41):
Bad things that happen in life,we're meant to ride the waves.
So when that process doesn'twork right, and we get stuck and
we develop, P-T-S-D-E-M-D-R isone of many modalities that can
help you slow down and give thebody a process to reset and
actually heal and move thememories where they need to be.
It does not always take tellingthe whole trauma story to
(24:03):
actually do that work.
Julie (24:05):
Absolutely.
And it's funny, when I start toteach clients some of these
vagus nerve, we, I haven't evenmentioned polyvagal theory.
That's another modality I pullfrom a lot.
Lot.
Did you a pull up your episode?
I know you do a whole episode onthat, but that this tapping and
this humming and this bilateralstimulation, those are often
things that people have beendoing and they didn't realize
that they've been doing it.
All this time and I say, look atwhat your body already knows
(24:28):
that you need.
And that's very validating forthem too.
Meagan (24:31):
That's really powerful.
Yeah.
So to encapsulate EMDR, which bythe way we should have said
this, for those who don't knowwhat EMDR stands for, it stands
for I Movement desensitizationand reprocessing.
And even though it's, itliterally has it in the name eye
movement we reprocess memoriesthrough that bilateral
stimulation that.
(24:52):
Eye movement is just one of manytypes.
Like Julie mentioned, there'sthe tapping on your shoulders
that we call the butterfly tap.
You can hold buzzers in yourhand.
You can even do it through audiowhere you have one little beep
in one ear and then the otherany kind of stimulation that
crosses the center line of yourbody can help this system come
online and do the processing.
But in that whole process ofEMDR, we really do start with.
(25:16):
Coping skills, coping andregulating and feeling good in
your body and developing trustwith your therapist for many
sessions before we ever have todive into the actual trauma
memory.
I'm wondering how long that'swhat we call resourcing that
first phase where we're justlearning to feel good before we
dive into the hard stuff.
How long does that often lastfor you with the women that
(25:37):
you've treated?
Julie (25:38):
Depends.
I have some clients I've beenseeing for years and we already
really comfortable with eachother.
And so once they're able tostart really using the
resourcing.
Exercises.
It doesn't last very long.
I would say with a new clientwho says EMDR protocol, I want
it right now.
I would probably spend three orfour sessions.
And with EMDR too.
(25:59):
I like to have regular weeklysessions where I've even had
good results, doing a session aday over three days.
So we get this momentum going.
That's really been useful ifsomeone can handle that with
their time and their moneysituation.
But starting EMDR aroundsomething is like Barb Berger,
the person who trained both ofus, I think.
(26:20):
Says that starting in EMDR.
Therapy is like you need tofinish your antibiotics.
You need to take your 10 days ofamoxicillin uhhuh if you don't
want the infection to come back.
So really, once you're in itit's good to stay in it until
you really do get to a suds ofzero.
SUDS stands for Subjective Unitof Distress.
It's a zero to 10 scale that youuse to say.
(26:44):
This is how much distress thisis causing me.
10 is the worst.
Zero is no distress or neutral.
So there's also, during theresourcing time there's time to
learn the lingo.
EMDR has a lot of lingo that youlearn that I'm just throwing
around, Everyone who's listeningshould know this.
So there's a lot of educating, Iguess that comes with it.
And I think a good, the EMDRtherapist is going to educate
you.
The times that I have hadclients who say, I tried it, but
(27:07):
it didn't work for me, or Ididn't understand it, the
therapist really just jumped inand didn't give a whole lot of
education around it.
And so that's a really importantpiece for me is that you know
exactly what you're doing andwhy we're doing it, and I think
that's when you have betteroutcomes too.
Meagan (27:23):
Absolutely.
I love what you said there aboutthe consistency piece and the
antibiotic metaphor is perfectfor that.
No matter really what type ofmodality you're using and what
type of counseling style you'rein, it is good to stay
consistent and give it a chancebefore giving feedback to your
therapist that this.
Really isn't feeling like it'sworking and what do we need to
shift here?
(27:43):
So I know we're getting close toour time here, but I'm wanting
to explore a little bit aroundreligious trauma and why EMDR
therapy may be particularly goodfor women who've experienced
religious trauma since it'sbecoming so prevalent.
Is there maybe some othercounseling that you would
recommend first before EMDR?
Or can this be something that ishelpful for people that are
(28:06):
realizing they are in thatreligious trauma space or
struggling with our exposure toit through the media right now?
Julie (28:13):
I think starting with EMDR would be perfectly okay.
There are a lot of.
Therapists who are specializingin this now besides just me in
the world, reclamationCollective has a lot of
resources around this.
There's a therapist directory ontheir website where you can find
someone who's in your area.
I used to be on that directory,I don't think I am anymore.
But they also have supportgroups you can find.
(28:34):
A lot of this can be healingdone in community, which is
helpful.
So a quick Google search you canfind.
Lots of online things.
I wish that there were more inperson opportunities for people
because churches are you're justthere in person every week.
It's very ritualistic.
You're making connections andrelationships, and it's very
(28:54):
hard to lose those.
But E-M-G-R-I think is a greatplace to start because a lot of
times people are raised in thesefaiths and it's such a part of
their family history.
How they make sense of theirchildhood was through this lens
of faith.
And so when someone comes to meand they're very anxious and
they don't know why, becausetheir childhood was fine, and
(29:15):
then we're digging into thingsand realize that I was really
scared of hell.
Growing up, the preacher wouldtalk about hell and I didn't
wanna go there, and so I raisedmy hand and accepted Jesus into
my heart, but I didn't know whatI was doing.
I just knew I didn't wanna go tohell.
That can be something we processin EMDR.
Meagan (29:34):
That's a really powerful example that even through the
adult lens of looking back onwhat you've been conditioned to
believe and what you are justnaturally participating in,
because your whole family unitdid now, if we sit and look at
it and you're asking questionsthat maybe family is.
Not comfortable with you askingor preachers are not comfortable
with you asking.
Therapy can be a good space thatis actually safe to explore
(29:57):
those things through EMDR andmultiple different modalities.
So from your perspective and thehistory that you have had
getting out of an evangelicalchurch situation, what kind of
advice would you give to thoseof us now who are maybe
struggling with our faith orstruggling in even our family
units because of the waypolitics and religion is being
(30:19):
so intertwined right now and theway it's causing a lot of
division, what advice can youput out there?
Julie (30:24):
I think finding people who are willing to hold that
space for you to ask those hardquestions without being
offended.
And there are plenty of peoplewho are willing to do that.
Meagan (30:41):
This is something coming up in my sessions, a lot of I
can't believe my.
Father thinks this way and Idon't know how to continue a
relationship with a person who'stelling me I should, not be able
to have access to birth controlor a job, or, a lot of these
things are being put on thequestion or on the table now
that is really causing a lot ofinternal turmoil and turmoil in
(31:03):
families and as clients.
Bring that up to me.
None of us have a great answer.
Even the therapists arestruggling with this too.
It's true.
No, I think I was listening toNPR one morning and I wish I
could remember who they wereinterviewing, but they were
talking about how the only wayto bridge this divide between
(31:26):
family members who really are inthe mega cult, it's a cult.
The bite model of cult mindcontrol of how information and
expectations are pressed in onsomeone To stay in the cult is
to have empathy.
For the person who is in thecult.
So you could throw facts at themall day.
You could get angry with themall day.
(31:47):
But that gentleness and thatempathy, which I define empathy
as the ability to understandanother person's perspective,
even if you don't agree withthem, that you can say, I can
see why you as a white.
50, 60-year-old man would feelthe way that you do about this
situation, that it would feellike the government is too big
(32:09):
and it's bloated and it'swasteful, and we need to cut
things.
Like I can understand why youwould feel that way.
That makes sense to me.
That is not me saying, and Iagree with you.
And you're right.
It is that's not empathy.
So that I think is probably thechallenge for us.
And it feels like a big askbecause the other side is
(32:30):
antipathy.
In fact, there are people withinEvangelicalism.
I.
Namely this comes out of Moscow,Idaho, with Doug Wilson
specifically, and another guywho wrote this book, I can't
remember, but it was called TheSin of Empathy.
Like empathy is a sin Wow.
To these people that we are crethey think that men are being
soft and women need to be putback in their place.
(32:51):
And it's like handmade talestuff.
To the max.
So we have to be the, when italways feels like we are the
bigger people.
And it's really exhausting.
It really is, and I thinkespecially in the therapy space,
it's important that clients knowthey can come into that space
and express This is so hard.
Yeah.
I wanna be the quote unquotebigger person and show empathy
(33:16):
towards the 60, 70-year-oldwhite male who is voting in
favor of what he thinks is gonnabe the best for the economy
because he's facing retirement.
And that makes sense, and I getthat.
And it's really damaging andhurtful that they also voted
against my reproductive autonomyin healthcare.
Both things can be true at once,and that is another thing we
(33:38):
teach a lot in therapy.
Yes.
Is two things can be true atonce.
So just knowing that we can saytherapy is a space to come and
grapple with these seeminglyopposing ideals and recognize
just the toughness of how tonavigate all of this and that
we're all in it together rightnow.
Julie (33:54):
And that's another thing I think is finding your
community of people.
Who feel the same way and peoplewho can let you vent, Because
venting to your dad who is aTrump supporter is not really an
option.
So how do you continue to buildthat community and even hold
those boundaries too?
If there are people that youcannot discuss this with, then
say, so I just don't, that's notwhere I want our relationship to
(34:16):
go, which is another thing Ilove about therapy is we have
lots and lots of ideas aboutkeeping and setting good
boundaries.
Meagan (34:22):
And being able to maintain relationships, even
though there's gonna be an areathat's maybe off limits, right?
Yeah.
But it seems like a lot of thiskind of comes down to, with our
main topic and focus here beingtrauma, that trauma tends to
push us to isolate.
And one of the best things wecan do to heal and combat it is
to find community, whetherthat's in therapy.
(34:43):
And spiritual organizations andfriendships, colleagues.
And the list goes on.
Thank you so much for coming andsharing a bit of your story and
your wisdom with us today,Julie.
I think this topic wasabsolutely so timely and so
needed, and I just wanted toinvite you to share any final
reflections or things that youwould like women to know out
(35:03):
there that are struggling withtrauma and looking to maybe seek
help through therapy.
Julie (35:08):
Yeah, I think the hardest part sometimes is trying to find
it, having the courage to makethe call, send the email, try
different therapists, haveconsultation calls, see who's a
good fit for you across all themodalities, no matter what you
choose, you feeling connectedand heard and seen by your
therapist is the number onepredictor of success in therapy.
So you can be choosy with whoyou spend time with and who you
(35:30):
wanna talk to.
And that's a really wonderfulthing because women so often
just feel so disempowered.
Meagan (35:37):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that so much.
Be choosy.
Get all kinds of consultationsbefore making your choice on who
you're gonna spend your timewith and your heart with, and
your vulnerable side.
Julie (35:48):
Absolutely.
And if it's not working, change,and that's okay.
You have more choices than yourealize right now.
Meagan (35:54):
Yeah, and what a good cornerstone of especially
feminist therapy where we're sofocused on women's empowerment
and choice, even in the therapyspace is a key part.
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