This week on Her Time To Talk, we're joined by therapist, mother, and assistant practice manager at Her Time Therapy—Lauren Veazey—for an intimate and powerful conversation about the emotional reality of new motherhood.
Lauren shares her personal story of miscarriage, postpartum anxiety, intrusive thoughts, and identity loss alongside her clinical insight into the difference between the baby blues and postpartum depression. We talk openly about the cultural silence that keeps so many mothers suffering alone—and why healing starts with being witnessed, validated, and supported.
Whether you’re a new parent, someone navigating fertility, or simply trying to understand what support during the perinatal period should look like, this episode is for you.
In this episode, we explore:
- What distinguishes baby blues from clinical postpartum depression
- How intrusive thoughts show up—and why they’re more common than you think
- The grief and identity shift that can come with becoming a parent
- What therapy can offer for women in the perinatal and postpartum periods
- Why naming your experience and sharing your story can be a radical act of healing
RESOURCES & LINKS:
- Learn more about Lauren Veazey
- More from Lauren on PMADS
- More from Lauren on What Motherhood Awakens
- National Maternal Mental Health Hotline: 1-833-TLC-MAMA
- Postpartum Support International or 1-800-944-4773 (4PPD)
- The Birth Squad: Colorado Perinatal Mental Health Project
- Healthy Expectations Perinatal Intensive Outpatient Program
- Colorado Crisis Services: Call 1-844-493-TALK (8255) or text "TALK" to 38255 for 24/7 support.
- National Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: Dial 988 for immediate assistance.
Connect with us:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meagan (00:28):
Thank you so much for being here with us, Lauren.
I would love it if you wouldjust take a moment to introduce
yourself, explain who you areand what you do.
Lauren (00:36):
I am Lauren Veazey.
I am a therapist and theassistant practice manager at
her time therapy.
I do a lot there, but I have apassion for helping treat women
who are going through perinataland postpartum issues anxiety,
grief, and all those things.
Meagan (00:54):
It's such important work you do, and I know that a lot
of our listeners are thedemographic that you specialize
in working with.
mothers through every sense ofthe word and through the whole
mother journey, which is areally large one.
But there's definitely someareas around pregnancy,
prenatal, postnatal that youreally tend to dive into.
We're gonna talk about that aswell as just motherhood and
(01:15):
parenting today.
One of the big things we'relooking at is postpartum
depression and like the babyblues and all the different
terms we use for that concept.
So I'm wondering from yourperspective as a therapist who
meets with a lot of moms and youalso are a mom yourself and
have been through all of thispersonally.
Can you, explain a little bitabout the difference.
(01:35):
Between true postpartumdepression versus what we call
like the baby blues.
When is it just hormones versuswhen is it really not just
hormones.
Lauren (01:45):
Yeah, that's a great and really important question.
So postpartum depression, likeyou said, can be lumped in
together with baby blues butthey're actually really
different in terms of durationand severity.
The baby Blues is a reallytypical postpartum experience
that most mothers are going togo through 80% of the current
(02:05):
statistics.
So it usually occurs withinabout two weeks of the baby's
birth.
And it happens due to.
the hormonal shifts that occurafter delivery.
The combination of that withsleep deprivation, the physical
recovery after birth, theemotional weight of caring for a
newborn.
the big thing is that itresolves.
It resolves in hours, itresolves in days.
(02:28):
And some of the symptomsassociated with it are things
like weepiness, fatigue,anxiety.
Difficulty sleeping and feelingoff or feeling hormonal.
But like I said it resolvesusually with good self-care and
it doesn't require professionalintervention.
When I talk about self-carewith new moms, we're really
reducing the scope of whatself-care means.
(02:49):
So that might mean just alittle bit of extra sleep, a
little bit of extra support,maybe being able to go for a
walk to connect with people,make sure you're nourishing
yourself.
Again, baby Blues doesn'tgenerally require professional
intervention, but if a woman iscomplaining about these symptoms
or talking about these symptomsthat bear resemblance to baby
blues and she's beyond threeweeks postpartum, we can pretty
(03:10):
safely say that it's not babyblues.
And so that is a really limitedtime to be experiencing.
These kind of hormonalfluctuations and these feelings.
But if you are past three weekspostpartum and you are still
feeling this way, then like Isaid, pretty safe to say it's
not quote unquote just the babyblues, which are hard to go
through, but will eventuallyresolve.
(03:30):
postpartum depression, on theother hand, is more persistent
and severe, and it can developanytime in the first year.
After birth some clinicianswill even extend that to two
years.
After birth, and it affectsabout one in seven mothers.
So it is not the typicalexperience.
Unlike baby blues, postpartumdepression doesn't resolve after
(03:52):
some good solid self-care.
It's a clinical mood disorderand it can significantly impact
a mother's ability to function.
these symptoms include thingslike.
Intense sadness orhopelessness, this feeling of
emptiness, numbness difficultybonding with the baby.
Extreme fatigue, but alsodifficulty sleeping when the
baby sleeps.
it's not just this reaction toshifting hormones, it's
(04:16):
influenced by biological,psychological and social
factors.
And again, unlike the babyblues, it doesn't generally go
away on its own.
Typically requires some form ofintervention, whether that's
therapy, medication supportgroups, a combination of those
things.
One final note about that is animportant distinction for
postpartum depression that looksa little bit different than a
(04:37):
standard clinical depression.
Postpartum depression as areally agitated depression and a
high functioning depressionbecause there is an infant to
care for, and generally moms aregonna do Anything to make sure
that their baby is cared for andbe able to present themselves
as a good mom.
Who is able to take care oftheir child.
It looks a little bit differentthan standard clinical
(05:00):
depression.
Those are the really bigdifferences, and that is not
something that I knew about BabyBlues is that there's a time
limit audit and it's really usedto wish away women's
difficulties after birth.
It can be used as an excuse.
Ah, you're just experiencingthe baby blues.
We might tell ourselves that wemight be hearing that from
other people if we say thatwe're struggling.
(05:21):
But there's big differences.
Meagan (05:23):
Absolutely.
That's such a great conciseexplanation of, there is time
limits on these things from aclinical perspective, but
there's also a lot of societalpressures and expectations put
on women in general, butespecially new mothers too.
Get the baby blues quickly.
Recover quickly.
Get your body back quickly andbe the best mom you can while
(05:44):
also working and being a goodpartner and fill in the blanks.
And there's a lot of ands thatare all the things on us.
Yes.
All the things.
Yeah.
And, I wonder in your work withnew moms, just how much, while
they're in it, all, they're evenaware of and realizing that
maybe all of these societalpressures are making.
All of these symptoms, worse.
Lauren (06:06):
I find a lot with my clients, especially the new moms
or even, second time mothers,third time mothers, that there
is this downplaying of oursymptoms especially after we've
given birth and we have childrento take care of.
There is something very scaryabout admitting that you're not
doing okay, that you'restruggling.
And I know that it is of theutmost importance to moms to
(06:31):
present.
Everything is okay because thatmeans that they're a good mom.
And if things aren't okay, thenthey could be a bad mom.
so to really recognize validatewhat we are feeling to
ourselves is a big part of thejourney with my postpartum moms
in particular.
Meagan (06:47):
Yeah.
And that takes a lot of courageto come out and say, I'm not
doing okay as a mom in thisperiod of time.
That is very vulnerable.
It's very risky, especiallyliving in a society that has
reduced women's lives down totheir ability to be mothers.
That is the thing that often weare most highly regarded for
and celebrated for.
So if this is an area thatwe're realizing, oh, maybe I'm
(07:10):
struggling with this.
It's not all the pleasant,good, overwhelming love that I
was told it was.
Or maybe it's that alongside alot of bad.
Or maybe you don't wanna be amother at all.
There's so much judgment aroundeverything to do with
motherhood that is placed onwomen's shoulders and it becomes
really paralyzing.
And I'm assuming, reallydifficult for a lot of new moms
(07:32):
to even fathom reaching out forhelp and admitting that
something's not great here.
Lauren (07:36):
You're absolutely right.
And I think one of the bigchallenges is to distinguish
what is.
Quote, unquote, normal in termsof the struggles of new
motherhood and parenthoodoverall, and when does it become
something that you might needto seek out help for?
Because being a new mom is hardno matter what.
Being a parent is hard, nomatter what.
(07:56):
So when does it get to thislevel of Actually I do need to
reach out for support.
I need to be validated in myfeelings.
I need to untangle.
How I got here and how I'mfeeling.
Because I don't recognizemyself.
I don't know how to reconcilewho I was with, who I am now.
And it can be, I.
(08:18):
A really difficult andintimidating journey, especially
because you're short on timeand you're short on brain space
and your body is different.
And society's telling you thatthis should be the happiest,
most joyful time in your life.
And for many moms that I know,it's just not.
And that's okay on a lot oflevels.
And are there things that wecan do to help?
(08:40):
Soothe this a little bit andmake it not such a deep pain and
not such a deep grief, to beable to really thrive as much as
you can.
Because like I said, it ishard, but there's different
levels of hard.
Meagan (08:54):
Absolutely.
And I think what I'm hearinghere too is the power of talking
about it.
And admitting to yourself,admitting to your friend groups,
your sisters publicly.
Definitely including our malepartners in this discussion.
this is so widespread and soprevalent that it should just be
a normal thing that we talkabout and seek out help for that
(09:14):
would make the world andmotherhood a lot better place to
be.
And yet we are in that space intime where we're actively
trying to normalize it and it'sreally important to do so.
I'm curious in yourperspective, what are some of
those tipping point symptomswhere we're seeing Okay.
Parenthood is hard and we'redealing with the waves of hard
as normal, but what's the tidalwave that's oof, okay, now it's
(09:38):
dangerous if we don't take thatstep, that courageous step of
seeking out help.
Lauren (09:43):
certainly I'm gonna start with a more severe
symptom, which is thoughts ofharming yourself or thoughts of
harming your baby.
That is a medical emergencythat needs immediate
intervention and there'shelplines out there.
For that or you go to the ERand things like that.
So that's on the more severe gawhen the tidal wave goes into
that direction.
But it is something thathappens and it's okay to
(10:05):
acknowledge that's somethingthat happens.
And it's okay to reach out forhelp when that happens.
in terms of distinguishing thetipping point.
It has to do a lot withduration of symptoms.
So if you're not just feelingthis like hopelessness and
fatigue and just the struggle ofthe relentlessness of parenting
(10:28):
and what it demands from you interms of time and energy,
physically, mentally,emotionally.
If it is persistent and you'refeeling that way more of the
time than you're not that is abig signal to me that it's time
to reach out for help.
If you are not functioning inthe way that you hoped you would
(10:48):
through motherhood orparenthood, then that is a
signal to reach out for somesupport and help too.
Meagan (10:55):
Yeah.
Those are all really good keyindicators.
And it sounds like a lot ofthem align with major depressive
disorder in, in general.
If you're having a hard timedoing those things for yourself
or your baby, that's a reallybig indicator.
Lauren (11:07):
Yes, like I said, it's hard, but it doesn't have to be
a constant struggle.
Meagan (11:12):
There should be those moments of joy.
Lauren (11:14):
Yes.
Meagan (11:14):
There should be a lot of them, in fact.
Lauren (11:16):
Yes.
Meagan (11:17):
I'm not a mother, so I can't speak to this personally,
but I've seen this with someclose friends and hearing
stories of my clients too.
It always surprises medifficult the postpartum period
is.
For many reasons, but one thatstands out to me too is that the
majority of the focus tends toshift to the baby.
Even in medical settings.
(11:37):
Certainly in family and publicsettings.
cause everyone of course wantsto celebrate and meet your baby.
This cute little infant that'snew in the world and that's
beautiful, but it tends to leavemoms.
Dealing with where they're aton their own without a lot of
attention or support.
Yeah.
Which is crazy to me.
After a woman goes throughwhat, for many of them, could be
(11:59):
the most physically traumaticexperience of their life.
The attention is turned awayfrom them.
if someone got in a terriblecar accident or went through a
major surgery and we're in aperiod of recovery immediately
after that event, all of theattention, the nursing staff,
all of that tends to focus onthe patient.
And it seems like birth andmotherhood is the one.
(12:20):
Physically traumatic eventwhere that happens and then very
minimal attention is given tothe mom as the patient.
It tends to shift to the duo ormostly to the baby.
I'm curious about yourperspective on that and how big
of a part that place in all ofit.
Lauren (12:36):
That's a really good point.
And it was an absolute shock tome how much the focus was on
the baby because that's where Iwas placing all of my focus when
I was pregnant.
So getting all the baby books,doing all this research, I was
approaching motherhood in thisvery academic way of I wanna
(12:57):
know everything about everythingand none of the baby books and
none of the research that I wasdoing was there.
Amir mention of what you as themother were going to go through
after giving birth.
It was all about thedevelopment of the baby and what
size it is in your womb andthat's all very exciting.
But what about us?
(13:18):
it was very shocking to berelegated to the role of the
birthing vessel.
In a way and okay, you've doneyour job, your body's done your
job, and now the focus is onthis new life, which is so
precious which is so expected.
And of course, as the mom isthere anything better than
seeing people like, coup in aweover your new baby, but you're
(13:41):
here as this person who's gonethrough this major medical event
and you're just expected tolike.
Be happy and take care ofthings like you always have and
now you are just mom and all ofthose previous parts of you that
you've spent your whole lifebeing no longer matter to
society.
even in friends and family, youget on the phone with them and
(14:03):
How's baby doing?
How's their sleeping?
How's their eating?
and it's like an oh and how areyou?
you always come last in theeyes of the world now because
you've done your job.
And that can feel really bad.
It can feel really bad.
Even if like myself, I havealways wanted to become a mom
(14:23):
and I always knew that I wantedchildren and I was very excited
for that time in my life.
Yet, man, the disappointmentand the recalibration of
understanding where societywanted me to stay and be now
that I had birth a child.
I know I've said it's shockinga couple times, but that really
was the primary emotion.
Meagan (14:44):
Absolutely.
It's a big shift to youridentity.
Suddenly in a minute you'retreated differently by the
entire world.
Lauren (14:52):
Yep.
Meagan (14:53):
You're regarded differently and you're having to
figure out how to navigate thatwhile also adjusting to a body
that feels totally different,that has gone through major
events where now you're havingto recover physically and
mentally and emotionally all atthe same time.
Very little energy andattention is directed that way.
Seems really isolating.
Lauren (15:13):
It very much can be and.
There's this beautiful termthat I've come across in this
field and, thinking about andtreating people with perinatal
and postpartum issues, and theterm is mires and it is this
term that encapsulates this timeof becoming a mother.
And so if we think of likeadolescence where.
(15:35):
Everything's changing aroundus.
We're trying to form thisidentity.
Our bodies are doinginteresting and odd things and
we are going through this majortransition.
some people, are gonna reallystruggle with that and some
people are gonna do okay.
And I find that is very similarwith this period of mince, this
becoming of a mother.
(15:55):
Some of us are gonna be allright.
Some of us are really gonnastruggle with it, but to not
even have that part of usacknowledged that, we're going
through a transition too can be,like you said, very isolating.
A little bit deflating.
Meagan (16:09):
Yeah.
I'm so glad that there's a termout there for it, and I'm also
so sad that it's not a morewidely known term.
That's a really powerful thingto share with people, but
especially mothers, that thereis a term for this transition
whether you're struggling withdepression or you had a really
traumatic birth, or everythingseems to be going smooth and
you're really happy with yourdecision.
(16:30):
no matter what, there is atransition that deserves
validation and acknowledgementand attention to, which is what
you specialize in.
With doing this particular typeof counseling?
Lauren (16:41):
Yes.
it is a term that I love tointroduce to my clients because
the vast majority have not heardabout it before, and there's
something really powerful aboutnaming the transition that we're
going through and acknowledgingthat it's about us too, and
it's about the dyad of us andour baby as well.
Meagan (17:02):
So you are a mom of two wonderful little boys.
And I'm wondering if you cantell us a bit about the choice
to have a second child and whatthe differences were, maybe from
your first pregnancy to yoursecond, and maybe the pros and
cons of even that whole decisionto be a mom of two.
Lauren (17:21):
Yeah, that's a big question because my motherhood
journey oh gosh, was a strugglefrom the beginning.
Currently just for somecontext, my boys are now seven
and nine, and it's sointeresting now doing the work
that I do to be aware of.
Some of the risk factors that,perinatal mood, anxiety
(17:41):
disorders have associated withthem because now I can think
about these risk factors andjust be like, check check,
check.
Because of my perinatalexperiences.
I'm talking about things likehistory of thyroid dysfunction,
which I wasn't aware of before Istarted on the fertility
journey.
I'm talking about, having apredisposition towards anxiety.
(18:04):
I really didn't realize what ananxious person I was until my
mother had a journey.
Bereavement, which is a bigpart of my journey that I'll get
into in a little bit.
A history of loss.
So suffering miscarriage is arisk factor.
That's a big piece of it.
And then.
Difficult infant temperament ora mismatch of infant
(18:25):
temperament to your temperamentis a big risk factor.
And then overall unexpectedoutcomes, which is I think a big
theme of what we're hitting onhere there is tension and
difficulty you come to realizethat motherhood is not what you
thought it was gonna be.
And so those are all thingsthat are part of my story.
And, 10, 11 years ago when Istarted on this journey, like I
(18:48):
said, I had no idea, no conceptthat any of these things were
risk factors.
So it was a surprise to me toslowly come to the realization
that I was suffering beyond thetypical baby blues and the
typical difficult time of earlymotherhood.
My motherhood journey reallybegins with struggle.
My husband and I had beenmarried for a few years.
We were in our early thirties.
(19:08):
We wanted to start a family,and it just was not happening.
It felt like.
Everyone around us who eitheralready had kids or wanted kids,
could just get pregnant at thedrop of a hat and oh, it
happened on our first try or oursecond try, or within three
months.
And it's just oh, okay.
I'm so happy for you.
there's so much dissonancethere 'cause you really are
(19:28):
happy for anybody who wants achild and becomes pregnant.
But there's also this internalbattle of what's wrong with me
and why can't my body do this?
And so we started to come up onthis timeframe where it was
time to start consideringspeaking to a fertility
specialist, trying to dig alittle deeper.
So we were doing a lot ofresearch trying to get
acquainted with thispotentially.
(19:50):
Infertile world.
And during that time, mymother-in-law had died by
suicide.
so we entered a completelydifferent world at that time.
A world of deep grief lossconfusion and a lot of really
complicated feelings.
So that really shifted ourworld at that time.
But a few months later, I didbecome pregnant for the first
time and it felt.
(20:11):
Miraculous.
It was this beacon of hope andjoy in the midst of this very
dark time.
But unfortunately that didn'tlast, I ended up having a
miscarriage and after that I waswrecked.
I was wrecked emotionally,mentally, physically.
I was crying myself to sleepfor months and months and just
felt a shell of my former selfand I really tried to pull
(20:34):
myself out of this tide pool ofdarkness that I couldn't.
And along with the mentalanguish and the grief piece, I
could also tell that there wassomething off.
Biologically I couldn't getanywhere with my traditional
doctors.
So I eventually went to aholistic doctor and did some
testing and I have, some thyroidissues that I had no idea
about.
(20:55):
They were subclinical, soeverything was showing up
normal, but really wasn't normalfor me.
So I started, taking thyroidmedication and felt better
almost instantly.
And then within a few months Iwas pregnant with my now
9-year-old.
I wish I could say things wereeasy going from there on out,
but they weren't, we were stillvery much grieving my
mother-in-law and, continuallycoming to terms that she would
(21:18):
never meet her first grandchild.
So we were still in this griefspace and this celebration
space, which felt very hard.
And then, following Birth Man,I love that little guy, but he
did not sleep.
And we had breastfeeding issuesand feeding issues from the
very beginning, and he had avery difficult temperament that
just did not match mytemperament.
(21:39):
And me being me, a typicaloldest child type a high
unbeatable expectations formyself.
I now say I'm a recoveringperfectionist, but I certainly
wouldn't describe myself as thatat the time.
There's that piece and thisrunning narrative in my family
and even among my friends thatI'm really even keeled and I'm
(22:00):
really chill.
I'm the one that you come to ifyou have problems.
I don't have problems.
I'm good.
I'm fine.
Spoiler alert, I had a veryanxious internal life.
I'm not fine but I can't letanybody see that.
cause I'm supposed to be theOkay one.
So You can see how thatperception of myself, that
identity that I had for myselfreally conflicted heavily with
(22:22):
my experience of earlymotherhood.
There's this saying that allbabies do is eat, sleep and
poop.
And it's like, I'm failing it.
Two of those.
I was so determined to figureit out for myself again, going
into research mode because Icould not let anybody know that
I was failing and struggling.
So I didn't enlist help.
I didn't really tell anybodythat I was, feeling this way.
I felt extremely guilty for notenjoying every moment of
(22:45):
motherhood.
And everybody says enjoy thesemoments.
'cause it goes so fast and it'sjust I haven't slept more than
90 minutes in a row for weeks.
And when was my last shower?
I don't know, but okay, I'llenjoy it.
So I just felt so unpreparedfor the relentlessness.
Of motherhood and how thebaby's needs just don't stop.
(23:07):
when my son was a few monthsold, my mom, who was and is a
huge part of my support system,was diagnosed with a rare
cancer.
And again, my world flippedupside down.
That time is honestly still somuch of a blur, but I just
remember isolating myself evenmore and feeling like.
I can't let anybody know thatI'm struggling because she's
(23:29):
struggling and we need to putthe support towards her.
I felt buzz with anxietyconstantly.
But things really had to giveeventually.
And I finally sought out somehelp and I joined a group for
Moms and Infants, it was an opengroup where you could just
bring your baby.
You could talk or not talk.
There was an amazing therapistthere, and we just went around
(23:51):
the circle and talked aboutwhatever we needed to talk
about.
And I got to say out loud forthe first time that I was having
a hard time with motherhood andI was supported.
And I was believed, until then,I really did not know that I
was allowed to say that.
I didn't know that I wasallowed to say that motherhood
was hard and that I wasstruggling.
(24:12):
I thought that made me a badmom.
But in that circle of supportwhere I got to hear the
struggles of so many other womenand different ways that they
were struggling and, beingvalidated, that it was really as
hard as it felt.
We just got to exchange somemom knowledge on feeding and
sleeping it was also fun to bein a community of women as well.
I eventually was able to getconnected with, lactation
(24:34):
consultants.
I tweaked thyroid meds and thatmom group really made me feel
like, okay, things are gonna beokay.
I'm okay.
And they were.
And because of that, we decidedwe wanted to try for another
child.
Things had stabilized, thingswere okay.
I did get pregnant immediately,which was a shock with number
two.
And so my younger son was borntwo years and about three months
(24:56):
after my first, Again, wish Icould say that from there on
things were okay and smoothsailing, but they weren't.
From what I've been describing,as you might imagine, I had a
lot of unresolved things thatwere just festering beneath the
surface.
Early motherhood kept me sobusy that I had not fully
confronted my loss of identity,grief over who I used to be.
(25:17):
This existential crisis of notknowing if I was gonna lose my
mom.
Continued bereavement of mymother-in-law, going through
depression, heightened anxietysymptoms, and again, not
understanding how much anxiety Ipersonally was living with on a
daily basis and even before Ihad kids.
That ultimately manifested inepisodes of anxiety where I
(25:38):
would have very vivid,terrifying thoughts of bad
things happening to my kids.
Them getting hurt, them dyingand it got to the point where I
would just stand frozen.
In the kitchen and thesethoughts would replay over and
over again, 10 minutes, 20minutes, 30 minutes.
And my body was physiologicallyreacting as though my thoughts
(25:59):
were real.
my kids at that time were goingto a part-time at home daycare.
And I knew their outdoor playschedule and I knew their park
visiting schedule.
I was so close every day togetting in my car and going and
just watching them because I wasterrified of something bad
happening to them.
That was a clear disruption inmy daily functioning.
(26:20):
I thought I was going crazy.
It might be taboo to use as aterm as a therapist, but I
thought I was losing it.
And so I contacted thetherapist that led the mom and
baby group.
Nicole.
Shout out to Nicole.
Love you.
Started going to sessions withher and during my first session
I just explained to her all ofthese terrible thoughts that I
was thinking, and I was sonervous to tell her about it
(26:44):
because I thought it was soextreme and so terrible.
And she just said, do you knowthat there's a name for what
you're experiencing?
And I was like, no.
And she said.
Those are called intrusivethoughts the relief of knowing
that there was a name for what Iwas going through, that there
wasn't something terriblelocated within me.
(27:04):
I wasn't this broken personthat was having these terrible
images just that was sopowerful.
all moms have intrusivethoughts.
Many people.
Have intrusive thoughts.
But again, in my case, theywere disrupting my functioning.
I felt like I couldn't functionproperly because they were
taking over my life.
once I got a handle on those, Iwas able to process a lot of
(27:24):
other things that I had gonethrough.
And it was going throughindividual and.
Group therapy that made me getserious about making a career
change and focusing a lot of mywork on the perinatal population
and working with grief andanxiety too.
it's so important for momsbirthing people, dads to have a
safe space to fall apart, to saythe scary things that maybe
they can't say to family orfriends.
(27:46):
For fear of judgment or.
Being perceived as a badparent.
I know what it's like.
I know what it's like to loveyour children with every cell in
your body, and to have thesemental health struggles
connected to the parentingjourney.
And just because you're okaywith one kid and you stabilize
and feel all right, doesn't meanthat things are gonna be okay
with the second child or thethird or the fourth or whatever
(28:07):
your family structure lookslike.
Meagan (28:09):
Wow.
Thank you first of all forbeing so vulnerable and sharing
that whole motherhood journeywith us here.
This is exactly the type ofstories that we need shared, and
there's so much power inputting words to it, and I know
it took a lot of bravery for youto summarize all of it in that
way, so I really appreciate thatyou showed up here, willing to
do that.
Lauren (28:30):
Certainly.
I don't think that it answeredyour original question about
knowing about it, but thestruggles were such an integral
part of my early motherhoodexperience that it's difficult
to separate knowing when to gofrom one to two, without
acknowledging there were thingsthat needed to happen, before we
could do that.
Meagan (28:48):
Absolutely through your story.
What I kept thinking too isthat, the motherhood journey and
pregnancies and having childrenand that whole shift, it
highlights a lot of thestruggles in life that happen
anyway.
whether you're naturally aperson that struggles with
anxiety or you're dealing with amother who is.
Battling cancer or you have aloss in the family, or you have
(29:10):
job struggles or any other fillin the blank stressor, all of
those parts of life don't stopjust because you happen to be
pregnant and have an infant therest of life doesn't stop.
But the fact that you are inthis particular place, in your
world and in your body makes allthe rest of it heightened.
All of it together makes it allexponentially more.
(29:30):
And when things are more, weneed more support.
We need more people around us.
for you, that women's group andhaving a circle of women that
you could be real with seemed tomake all the difference.
Lauren (29:44):
It really did.
And yes, that word heightened.
There is just such a sharpnessto everything after you have a
child, and we should all overourselves during this time.
I should be enjoying this.
This should be easier.
I should be able to get throughthis.
But when everything does feelheightened and sharper, like you
(30:04):
said, that's a call for moresupport, not self-judgment.
let's be compassionate withourselves in this major thing
that we are going through andask for more because we really
deserve it.
Meagan (30:16):
Absolutely.
And that starts even in thefertility journey in the
beginning.
And I'm so sorry that you hadto go through the grief of a
miscarriage we could do a wholeepisode on the grief that women
experience, especially inreproductive parts of their
lives, it's a disenfranchisedloss.
It's not one that we recognizenearly as much as we should in
the society.
(30:36):
as a woman myself, gettingolder, I'm a noun.
I'm 34, I'm in my mid, almostthirties, and I never recognized
in most of my twenties that wasso common.
I.
It wasn't until I had a lot ofmy friends go through, getting,
their own mother journey startedand seeing their sisters and
their friends go through it.
(30:57):
you hear about it throughstories and you realize as you
get older, boy, these storiesare becoming more and more
common.
And when you're a teenager andwhen you're in your twenties,
even.
A lot of women are so focusedon not getting pregnant.
That we never are really taughtto think about fertility and
we're never taught how common itis to struggle with these
things where do you hear it?
(31:18):
Other than by women justtalking behind closed doors.
And that's really part of whatwe're doing on this podcast is
taking those conversations andputting them out more publicly
so that it's not such a shockwhen you start to realize this
is way more of a prevalentproblem than anyone gave me any
inclination of.
Lauren (31:35):
Yes.
That's the big theme here,isn't it?
It is just I didn't know.
I didn't know this.
And it was exactly that.
That was exactly my experiencewith suffering.
The miscarriage is all of asudden you become part of this
club that you didn't wanna bepart of, but that there's a lot
of other people who are membersof that club and the healing
(31:57):
piece.
Is in connecting and sharingand grieving that
disenfranchised loss togetherand allowing yourself permission
to acknowledge that it is amajor loss and it's okay to feel
sad and it's okay to talk aboutit.
Meagan (32:12):
Absolutely.
So you are now a therapistspecializing in women's mental
health, pre and postpartum care,parenting care, motherhood
care.
And you've not onlyacademically learned what to do
about all of this, but you'vehealed from it yourself.
I'm wondering what you canshare with folks that are
struggling with this and maybeare realizing I am at that point
(32:33):
where I need to reach out forsome.
Support here.
What can they expect to happenin therapy session?
What works to heal thoseintrusive thoughts or some of
the other heightened symptomsthat we've talked about?
Lauren (32:47):
That's a great question.
I think one of the biggestthings to acknowledge is that
what can feel the most healingis being witnessed.
And seen and held in your pain,whether that's through other
women, through, joining part ofa group or in a therapy session
it is that relationship, thattherapeutic alliance that you
(33:09):
have that connection thatcommunity and a safeness where
you can feel.
Free to express what you needto express because again we're
taught that we are supposed tobe experiencing motherhood in a
specific way, and it feels veryshameful if we are not
experiencing it in that way.
so it's a huge goal for me toprovide a safe, non-judgmental,
(33:34):
compassionate space for women.
To say whatever they need tosay, the scary things, the bad
things, the things that theyfeel ashamed about.
so what you should be able toexpect when you go to seek help
in your perinatal, postpartumperiod or any other time in your
life, is that you will be metwith compassion and A genuine
(33:54):
interest and curiosity in whoyou are, what your experience
is, what your story is, and avalidation that what you're
experiencing makes sense.
And is okay and that there arethings that we can do to treat
it.
So postpartum depression,postpartum anxiety, these can be
really scary things toexperience and to acknowledge
(34:15):
that you have, but they'rehighly treatable.
So you can not just talk aboutwhere you've been and where you
are, but where you wanna be andcollaborate with your therapist
on your treatment.
thriving as much as you're ableto in the context you have
available to you in yourparenting and motherhood
journey.
Meagan (34:35):
Very well said.
And no therapeutic journeylooks the same.
So what works for one mom isnot gonna work for another.
Yeah.
But it's a combination ofworking in context of other
mothers.
Of other women, of yourtherapist to have connection.
And of course I can't not quoteBrene Brown here, but shame
can't live in the light.
(34:55):
So bringing a lot of it intothe light that in itself can be
healing.
Yeah.
Just to be witnessed.
Yes.
Lauren (35:02):
All of our stories are so precious and they really
deserve to be heard.
it can be really powerful toname what's happening to us.
And to be able to be an activeparticipant in the narrative of
our lives.
Meagan (35:15):
That's a really beautiful way to say it.
Be an active participant in thenarrative.
I imagine as we gatherlisteners to this episode, most
of them are gonna be mothers,but there's probably a good
demographic out there that arewhat we call fence sitters.
The women who are consideringmotherhood but aren't sure and
do a lot of that academicresearch that you talked about
(35:36):
to really figure out, is thisright for me or not?
What information do I need tohave to make the best decision I
can for myself?
And as one of those fencesitters, I wanna maybe selfishly
ask you, what would you sharewith those women that are
contemplating becoming mothersthrough pregnancy or through
adoption or to maybe decide notto?
(35:56):
What would you share with them?
Lauren (35:58):
I would share that no matter what your decision is you
have the right to make yourdecision free of cultural
influences, whether that'sfamily the wider culture that
you should have full controlover your reproductive
experience and that you deserveto trust yourself.
In the decisions that youultimately make about whether or
(36:21):
not you decide to bring a lifeinto the world women have
tremendous value outside of therole of mom.
And even though it is such ajoy in my life, I am also so
much more than a mom.
so no matter what way youchoose it is valid.
It is wonderful and the worldneeds your gifts, whether those
(36:43):
are steeped in motherhood ornot.
Meagan (36:45):
Thank you for saying that.
That is absolutely beautifuland so true.
I couldn't agree more.
That's such great advice forany women listening to this.
You are so much more than anyone of your roles.
Thank you for your time today,Lauren.
This was such a powerfulepisode and I know it's gonna
help so many people.
So I really appreciate yourcourage and your vulnerability
and your expertise that youshared with us here today.
Lauren (37:07):
Thank you so much for allowing the space for my story.
I love to be in session with myclients and hearing them.
Talk about their stories and Iwelcome so much their
vulnerability that I only feelit's right to be able to model
that and to be able to tell mystory and be vulnerable in that.
(37:28):
So again, thank you forallowing the space for that and
allowing me to express mypassion for helping and
supporting the perinatal andpostpartum population.
Meagan (37:37):
Absolutely.
And if anyone has listened tothis and wants to meet and work
with Lauren, we'll put herprofile link with her contact
information in the show notes,as well as some of the crisis
resources that we mentioned forgeneral crisis support as well
as miscarriage support.
For potential moms who are inneed.
Thank you so much for being here with us, Lauren.
I would love it if you wouldjust take a moment to introduce
yourself, explain who you areand what you do.
Lauren (00:36):
I am Lauren Veazey.
I am a therapist and theassistant practice manager at
her time therapy.
I do a lot there, but I have apassion for helping treat women
who are going through perinataland postpartum issues anxiety,
grief, and all those things.
Meagan (00:54):
It's such important work you do, and I know that a lot
of our listeners are thedemographic that you specialize
in working with.
mothers through every sense ofthe word and through the whole
mother journey, which is areally large one.
But there's definitely someareas around pregnancy,
prenatal, postnatal that youreally tend to dive into.
We're gonna talk about that aswell as just motherhood and
(01:15):
parenting today.
One of the big things we'relooking at is postpartum
depression and like the babyblues and all the different
terms we use for that concept.
So I'm wondering from yourperspective as a therapist who
meets with a lot of moms and youalso are a mom yourself and
have been through all of thispersonally.
Can you, explain a little bitabout the difference.
(01:35):
Between true postpartumdepression versus what we call
like the baby blues.
When is it just hormones versuswhen is it really not just
hormones.
Lauren (01:45):
Yeah, that's a great and really important question.
So postpartum depression, likeyou said, can be lumped in
together with baby blues butthey're actually really
different in terms of durationand severity.
The baby Blues is a reallytypical postpartum experience
that most mothers are going togo through 80% of the current
(02:05):
statistics.
So it usually occurs withinabout two weeks of the baby's
birth.
And it happens due to.
the hormonal shifts that occurafter delivery.
The combination of that withsleep deprivation, the physical
recovery after birth, theemotional weight of caring for a
newborn.
the big thing is that itresolves.
It resolves in hours, itresolves in days.
(02:28):
And some of the symptomsassociated with it are things
like weepiness, fatigue,anxiety.
Difficulty sleeping and feelingoff or feeling hormonal.
But like I said it resolvesusually with good self-care and
it doesn't require professionalintervention.
When I talk about self-carewith new moms, we're really
reducing the scope of whatself-care means.
(02:49):
So that might mean just alittle bit of extra sleep, a
little bit of extra support,maybe being able to go for a
walk to connect with people,make sure you're nourishing
yourself.
Again, baby Blues doesn'tgenerally require professional
intervention, but if a woman iscomplaining about these symptoms
or talking about these symptomsthat bear resemblance to baby
blues and she's beyond threeweeks postpartum, we can pretty
(03:10):
safely say that it's not babyblues.
And so that is a really limitedtime to be experiencing.
These kind of hormonalfluctuations and these feelings.
But if you are past three weekspostpartum and you are still
feeling this way, then like Isaid, pretty safe to say it's
not quote unquote just the babyblues, which are hard to go
through, but will eventuallyresolve.
(03:30):
postpartum depression, on theother hand, is more persistent
and severe, and it can developanytime in the first year.
After birth some clinicianswill even extend that to two
years.
After birth, and it affectsabout one in seven mothers.
So it is not the typicalexperience.
Unlike baby blues, postpartumdepression doesn't resolve after
(03:52):
some good solid self-care.
It's a clinical mood disorderand it can significantly impact
a mother's ability to function.
these symptoms include thingslike.
Intense sadness orhopelessness, this feeling of
emptiness, numbness difficultybonding with the baby.
Extreme fatigue, but alsodifficulty sleeping when the
baby sleeps.
it's not just this reaction toshifting hormones, it's
(04:16):
influenced by biological,psychological and social
factors.
And again, unlike the babyblues, it doesn't generally go
away on its own.
Typically requires some form ofintervention, whether that's
therapy, medication supportgroups, a combination of those
things.
One final note about that is animportant distinction for
postpartum depression that looksa little bit different than a
(04:37):
standard clinical depression.
Postpartum depression as areally agitated depression and a
high functioning depressionbecause there is an infant to
care for, and generally moms aregonna do Anything to make sure
that their baby is cared for andbe able to present themselves
as a good mom.
Who is able to take care oftheir child.
It looks a little bit differentthan standard clinical
(05:00):
depression.
Those are the really bigdifferences, and that is not
something that I knew about BabyBlues is that there's a time
limit audit and it's really usedto wish away women's
difficulties after birth.
It can be used as an excuse.
Ah, you're just experiencingthe baby blues.
We might tell ourselves that wemight be hearing that from
other people if we say thatwe're struggling.
(05:21):
But there's big differences.
Meagan (05:23):
Absolutely.
That's such a great conciseexplanation of, there is time
limits on these things from aclinical perspective, but
there's also a lot of societalpressures and expectations put
on women in general, butespecially new mothers too.
Get the baby blues quickly.
Recover quickly.
Get your body back quickly andbe the best mom you can while
(05:44):
also working and being a goodpartner and fill in the blanks.
And there's a lot of ands thatare all the things on us.
Yes.
All the things.
Yeah.
And, I wonder in your work withnew moms, just how much, while
they're in it, all, they're evenaware of and realizing that
maybe all of these societalpressures are making.
All of these symptoms, worse.
Lauren (06:06):
I find a lot with my clients, especially the new moms
or even, second time mothers,third time mothers, that there
is this downplaying of oursymptoms especially after we've
given birth and we have childrento take care of.
There is something very scaryabout admitting that you're not
doing okay, that you'restruggling.
And I know that it is of theutmost importance to moms to
(06:31):
present.
Everything is okay because thatmeans that they're a good mom.
And if things aren't okay, thenthey could be a bad mom.
so to really recognize validatewhat we are feeling to
ourselves is a big part of thejourney with my postpartum moms
in particular.
Meagan (06:47):
Yeah.
And that takes a lot of courageto come out and say, I'm not
doing okay as a mom in thisperiod of time.
That is very vulnerable.
It's very risky, especiallyliving in a society that has
reduced women's lives down totheir ability to be mothers.
That is the thing that often weare most highly regarded for
and celebrated for.
So if this is an area thatwe're realizing, oh, maybe I'm
(07:10):
struggling with this.
It's not all the pleasant,good, overwhelming love that I
was told it was.
Or maybe it's that alongside alot of bad.
Or maybe you don't wanna be amother at all.
There's so much judgment aroundeverything to do with
motherhood that is placed onwomen's shoulders and it becomes
really paralyzing.
And I'm assuming, reallydifficult for a lot of new moms
(07:32):
to even fathom reaching out forhelp and admitting that
something's not great here.
Lauren (07:36):
You're absolutely right.
And I think one of the bigchallenges is to distinguish
what is.
Quote, unquote, normal in termsof the struggles of new
motherhood and parenthoodoverall, and when does it become
something that you might needto seek out help for?
Because being a new mom is hardno matter what.
Being a parent is hard, nomatter what.
(07:56):
So when does it get to thislevel of Actually I do need to
reach out for support.
I need to be validated in myfeelings.
I need to untangle.
How I got here and how I'mfeeling.
Because I don't recognizemyself.
I don't know how to reconcilewho I was with, who I am now.
And it can be, I.
(08:18):
A really difficult andintimidating journey, especially
because you're short on timeand you're short on brain space
and your body is different.
And society's telling you thatthis should be the happiest,
most joyful time in your life.
And for many moms that I know,it's just not.
And that's okay on a lot oflevels.
And are there things that wecan do to help?
(08:40):
Soothe this a little bit andmake it not such a deep pain and
not such a deep grief, to beable to really thrive as much as
you can.
Because like I said, it ishard, but there's different
levels of hard.
Meagan (08:54):
Absolutely.
And I think what I'm hearinghere too is the power of talking
about it.
And admitting to yourself,admitting to your friend groups,
your sisters publicly.
Definitely including our malepartners in this discussion.
this is so widespread and soprevalent that it should just be
a normal thing that we talkabout and seek out help for that
(09:14):
would make the world andmotherhood a lot better place to
be.
And yet we are in that space intime where we're actively
trying to normalize it and it'sreally important to do so.
I'm curious in yourperspective, what are some of
those tipping point symptomswhere we're seeing Okay.
Parenthood is hard and we'redealing with the waves of hard
as normal, but what's the tidalwave that's oof, okay, now it's
(09:38):
dangerous if we don't take thatstep, that courageous step of
seeking out help.
Lauren (09:43):
certainly I'm gonna start with a more severe
symptom, which is thoughts ofharming yourself or thoughts of
harming your baby.
That is a medical emergencythat needs immediate
intervention and there'shelplines out there.
For that or you go to the ERand things like that.
So that's on the more severe gawhen the tidal wave goes into
that direction.
But it is something thathappens and it's okay to
(10:05):
acknowledge that's somethingthat happens.
And it's okay to reach out forhelp when that happens.
in terms of distinguishing thetipping point.
It has to do a lot withduration of symptoms.
So if you're not just feelingthis like hopelessness and
fatigue and just the struggle ofthe relentlessness of parenting
(10:28):
and what it demands from you interms of time and energy,
physically, mentally,emotionally.
If it is persistent and you'refeeling that way more of the
time than you're not that is abig signal to me that it's time
to reach out for help.
If you are not functioning inthe way that you hoped you would
(10:48):
through motherhood orparenthood, then that is a
signal to reach out for somesupport and help too.
Meagan (10:55):
Yeah.
Those are all really good keyindicators.
And it sounds like a lot ofthem align with major depressive
disorder in, in general.
If you're having a hard timedoing those things for yourself
or your baby, that's a reallybig indicator.
Lauren (11:07):
Yes, like I said, it's hard, but it doesn't have to be
a constant struggle.
Meagan (11:12):
There should be those moments of joy.
Lauren (11:14):
Yes.
Meagan (11:14):
There should be a lot of them, in fact.
Lauren (11:16):
Yes.
Meagan (11:17):
I'm not a mother, so I can't speak to this personally,
but I've seen this with someclose friends and hearing
stories of my clients too.
It always surprises medifficult the postpartum period
is.
For many reasons, but one thatstands out to me too is that the
majority of the focus tends toshift to the baby.
Even in medical settings.
(11:37):
Certainly in family and publicsettings.
cause everyone of course wantsto celebrate and meet your baby.
This cute little infant that'snew in the world and that's
beautiful, but it tends to leavemoms.
Dealing with where they're aton their own without a lot of
attention or support.
Yeah.
Which is crazy to me.
After a woman goes throughwhat, for many of them, could be
(11:59):
the most physically traumaticexperience of their life.
The attention is turned awayfrom them.
if someone got in a terriblecar accident or went through a
major surgery and we're in aperiod of recovery immediately
after that event, all of theattention, the nursing staff,
all of that tends to focus onthe patient.
And it seems like birth andmotherhood is the one.
(12:20):
Physically traumatic eventwhere that happens and then very
minimal attention is given tothe mom as the patient.
It tends to shift to the duo ormostly to the baby.
I'm curious about yourperspective on that and how big
of a part that place in all ofit.
Lauren (12:36):
That's a really good point.
And it was an absolute shock tome how much the focus was on
the baby because that's where Iwas placing all of my focus when
I was pregnant.
So getting all the baby books,doing all this research, I was
approaching motherhood in thisvery academic way of I wanna
(12:57):
know everything about everythingand none of the baby books and
none of the research that I wasdoing was there.
Amir mention of what you as themother were going to go through
after giving birth.
It was all about thedevelopment of the baby and what
size it is in your womb andthat's all very exciting.
But what about us?
(13:18):
it was very shocking to berelegated to the role of the
birthing vessel.
In a way and okay, you've doneyour job, your body's done your
job, and now the focus is onthis new life, which is so
precious which is so expected.
And of course, as the mom isthere anything better than
seeing people like, coup in aweover your new baby, but you're
(13:41):
here as this person who's gonethrough this major medical event
and you're just expected tolike.
Be happy and take care ofthings like you always have and
now you are just mom and all ofthose previous parts of you that
you've spent your whole lifebeing no longer matter to
society.
even in friends and family, youget on the phone with them and
(14:03):
How's baby doing?
How's their sleeping?
How's their eating?
and it's like an oh and how areyou?
you always come last in theeyes of the world now because
you've done your job.
And that can feel really bad.
It can feel really bad.
Even if like myself, I havealways wanted to become a mom
(14:23):
and I always knew that I wantedchildren and I was very excited
for that time in my life.
Yet, man, the disappointmentand the recalibration of
understanding where societywanted me to stay and be now
that I had birth a child.
I know I've said it's shockinga couple times, but that really
was the primary emotion.
Meagan (14:44):
Absolutely.
It's a big shift to youridentity.
Suddenly in a minute you'retreated differently by the
entire world.
Lauren (14:52):
Yep.
Meagan (14:53):
You're regarded differently and you're having to
figure out how to navigate thatwhile also adjusting to a body
that feels totally different,that has gone through major
events where now you're havingto recover physically and
mentally and emotionally all atthe same time.
Very little energy andattention is directed that way.
Seems really isolating.
Lauren (15:13):
It very much can be and.
There's this beautiful termthat I've come across in this
field and, thinking about andtreating people with perinatal
and postpartum issues, and theterm is mires and it is this
term that encapsulates this timeof becoming a mother.
And so if we think of likeadolescence where.
(15:35):
Everything's changing aroundus.
We're trying to form thisidentity.
Our bodies are doinginteresting and odd things and
we are going through this majortransition.
some people, are gonna reallystruggle with that and some
people are gonna do okay.
And I find that is very similarwith this period of mince, this
becoming of a mother.
(15:55):
Some of us are gonna be allright.
Some of us are really gonnastruggle with it, but to not
even have that part of usacknowledged that, we're going
through a transition too can be,like you said, very isolating.
A little bit deflating.
Meagan (16:09):
Yeah.
I'm so glad that there's a termout there for it, and I'm also
so sad that it's not a morewidely known term.
That's a really powerful thingto share with people, but
especially mothers, that thereis a term for this transition
whether you're struggling withdepression or you had a really
traumatic birth, or everythingseems to be going smooth and
you're really happy with yourdecision.
(16:30):
no matter what, there is atransition that deserves
validation and acknowledgementand attention to, which is what
you specialize in.
With doing this particular typeof counseling?
Lauren (16:41):
Yes.
it is a term that I love tointroduce to my clients because
the vast majority have not heardabout it before, and there's
something really powerful aboutnaming the transition that we're
going through and acknowledgingthat it's about us too, and
it's about the dyad of us andour baby as well.
Meagan (17:02):
So you are a mom of two wonderful little boys.
And I'm wondering if you cantell us a bit about the choice
to have a second child and whatthe differences were, maybe from
your first pregnancy to yoursecond, and maybe the pros and
cons of even that whole decisionto be a mom of two.
Lauren (17:21):
Yeah, that's a big question because my motherhood
journey oh gosh, was a strugglefrom the beginning.
Currently just for somecontext, my boys are now seven
and nine, and it's sointeresting now doing the work
that I do to be aware of.
Some of the risk factors that,perinatal mood, anxiety
(17:41):
disorders have associated withthem because now I can think
about these risk factors andjust be like, check check,
check.
Because of my perinatalexperiences.
I'm talking about things likehistory of thyroid dysfunction,
which I wasn't aware of before Istarted on the fertility
journey.
I'm talking about, having apredisposition towards anxiety.
(18:04):
I really didn't realize what ananxious person I was until my
mother had a journey.
Bereavement, which is a bigpart of my journey that I'll get
into in a little bit.
A history of loss.
So suffering miscarriage is arisk factor.
That's a big piece of it.
And then.
Difficult infant temperament ora mismatch of infant
(18:25):
temperament to your temperamentis a big risk factor.
And then overall unexpectedoutcomes, which is I think a big
theme of what we're hitting onhere there is tension and
difficulty you come to realizethat motherhood is not what you
thought it was gonna be.
And so those are all thingsthat are part of my story.
And, 10, 11 years ago when Istarted on this journey, like I
(18:48):
said, I had no idea, no conceptthat any of these things were
risk factors.
So it was a surprise to me toslowly come to the realization
that I was suffering beyond thetypical baby blues and the
typical difficult time of earlymotherhood.
My motherhood journey reallybegins with struggle.
My husband and I had beenmarried for a few years.
We were in our early thirties.
(19:08):
We wanted to start a family,and it just was not happening.
It felt like.
Everyone around us who eitheralready had kids or wanted kids,
could just get pregnant at thedrop of a hat and oh, it
happened on our first try or oursecond try, or within three
months.
And it's just oh, okay.
I'm so happy for you.
there's so much dissonancethere 'cause you really are
(19:28):
happy for anybody who wants achild and becomes pregnant.
But there's also this internalbattle of what's wrong with me
and why can't my body do this?
And so we started to come up onthis timeframe where it was
time to start consideringspeaking to a fertility
specialist, trying to dig alittle deeper.
So we were doing a lot ofresearch trying to get
acquainted with thispotentially.
(19:50):
Infertile world.
And during that time, mymother-in-law had died by
suicide.
so we entered a completelydifferent world at that time.
A world of deep grief lossconfusion and a lot of really
complicated feelings.
So that really shifted ourworld at that time.
But a few months later, I didbecome pregnant for the first
time and it felt.
(20:11):
Miraculous.
It was this beacon of hope andjoy in the midst of this very
dark time.
But unfortunately that didn'tlast, I ended up having a
miscarriage and after that I waswrecked.
I was wrecked emotionally,mentally, physically.
I was crying myself to sleepfor months and months and just
felt a shell of my former selfand I really tried to pull
(20:34):
myself out of this tide pool ofdarkness that I couldn't.
And along with the mentalanguish and the grief piece, I
could also tell that there wassomething off.
Biologically I couldn't getanywhere with my traditional
doctors.
So I eventually went to aholistic doctor and did some
testing and I have, some thyroidissues that I had no idea
about.
(20:55):
They were subclinical, soeverything was showing up
normal, but really wasn't normalfor me.
So I started, taking thyroidmedication and felt better
almost instantly.
And then within a few months Iwas pregnant with my now
9-year-old.
I wish I could say things wereeasy going from there on out,
but they weren't, we were stillvery much grieving my
mother-in-law and, continuallycoming to terms that she would
(21:18):
never meet her first grandchild.
So we were still in this griefspace and this celebration
space, which felt very hard.
And then, following Birth Man,I love that little guy, but he
did not sleep.
And we had breastfeeding issuesand feeding issues from the
very beginning, and he had avery difficult temperament that
just did not match mytemperament.
(21:39):
And me being me, a typicaloldest child type a high
unbeatable expectations formyself.
I now say I'm a recoveringperfectionist, but I certainly
wouldn't describe myself as thatat the time.
There's that piece and thisrunning narrative in my family
and even among my friends thatI'm really even keeled and I'm
(22:00):
really chill.
I'm the one that you come to ifyou have problems.
I don't have problems.
I'm good.
I'm fine.
Spoiler alert, I had a veryanxious internal life.
I'm not fine but I can't letanybody see that.
cause I'm supposed to be theOkay one.
So You can see how thatperception of myself, that
identity that I had for myselfreally conflicted heavily with
(22:22):
my experience of earlymotherhood.
There's this saying that allbabies do is eat, sleep and
poop.
And it's like, I'm failing it.
Two of those.
I was so determined to figureit out for myself again, going
into research mode because Icould not let anybody know that
I was failing and struggling.
So I didn't enlist help.
I didn't really tell anybodythat I was, feeling this way.
I felt extremely guilty for notenjoying every moment of
(22:45):
motherhood.
And everybody says enjoy thesemoments.
'cause it goes so fast and it'sjust I haven't slept more than
90 minutes in a row for weeks.
And when was my last shower?
I don't know, but okay, I'llenjoy it.
So I just felt so unpreparedfor the relentlessness.
Of motherhood and how thebaby's needs just don't stop.
(23:07):
when my son was a few monthsold, my mom, who was and is a
huge part of my support system,was diagnosed with a rare
cancer.
And again, my world flippedupside down.
That time is honestly still somuch of a blur, but I just
remember isolating myself evenmore and feeling like.
I can't let anybody know thatI'm struggling because she's
(23:29):
struggling and we need to putthe support towards her.
I felt buzz with anxietyconstantly.
But things really had to giveeventually.
And I finally sought out somehelp and I joined a group for
Moms and Infants, it was an opengroup where you could just
bring your baby.
You could talk or not talk.
There was an amazing therapistthere, and we just went around
(23:51):
the circle and talked aboutwhatever we needed to talk
about.
And I got to say out loud forthe first time that I was having
a hard time with motherhood andI was supported.
And I was believed, until then,I really did not know that I
was allowed to say that.
I didn't know that I wasallowed to say that motherhood
was hard and that I wasstruggling.
(24:12):
I thought that made me a badmom.
But in that circle of supportwhere I got to hear the
struggles of so many other womenand different ways that they
were struggling and, beingvalidated, that it was really as
hard as it felt.
We just got to exchange somemom knowledge on feeding and
sleeping it was also fun to bein a community of women as well.
I eventually was able to getconnected with, lactation
(24:34):
consultants.
I tweaked thyroid meds and thatmom group really made me feel
like, okay, things are gonna beokay.
I'm okay.
And they were.
And because of that, we decidedwe wanted to try for another
child.
Things had stabilized, thingswere okay.
I did get pregnant immediately,which was a shock with number
two.
And so my younger son was borntwo years and about three months
(24:56):
after my first, Again, wish Icould say that from there on
things were okay and smoothsailing, but they weren't.
From what I've been describing,as you might imagine, I had a
lot of unresolved things thatwere just festering beneath the
surface.
Early motherhood kept me sobusy that I had not fully
confronted my loss of identity,grief over who I used to be.
(25:17):
This existential crisis of notknowing if I was gonna lose my
mom.
Continued bereavement of mymother-in-law, going through
depression, heightened anxietysymptoms, and again, not
understanding how much anxiety Ipersonally was living with on a
daily basis and even before Ihad kids.
That ultimately manifested inepisodes of anxiety where I
(25:38):
would have very vivid,terrifying thoughts of bad
things happening to my kids.
Them getting hurt, them dyingand it got to the point where I
would just stand frozen.
In the kitchen and thesethoughts would replay over and
over again, 10 minutes, 20minutes, 30 minutes.
And my body was physiologicallyreacting as though my thoughts
(25:59):
were real.
my kids at that time were goingto a part-time at home daycare.
And I knew their outdoor playschedule and I knew their park
visiting schedule.
I was so close every day togetting in my car and going and
just watching them because I wasterrified of something bad
happening to them.
That was a clear disruption inmy daily functioning.
(26:20):
I thought I was going crazy.
It might be taboo to use as aterm as a therapist, but I
thought I was losing it.
And so I contacted thetherapist that led the mom and
baby group.
Nicole.
Shout out to Nicole.
Love you.
Started going to sessions withher and during my first session
I just explained to her all ofthese terrible thoughts that I
was thinking, and I was sonervous to tell her about it
(26:44):
because I thought it was soextreme and so terrible.
And she just said, do you knowthat there's a name for what
you're experiencing?
And I was like, no.
And she said.
Those are called intrusivethoughts the relief of knowing
that there was a name for what Iwas going through, that there
wasn't something terriblelocated within me.
(27:04):
I wasn't this broken personthat was having these terrible
images just that was sopowerful.
all moms have intrusivethoughts.
Many people.
Have intrusive thoughts.
But again, in my case, theywere disrupting my functioning.
I felt like I couldn't functionproperly because they were
taking over my life.
once I got a handle on those, Iwas able to process a lot of
(27:24):
other things that I had gonethrough.
And it was going throughindividual and.
Group therapy that made me getserious about making a career
change and focusing a lot of mywork on the perinatal population
and working with grief andanxiety too.
it's so important for momsbirthing people, dads to have a
safe space to fall apart, to saythe scary things that maybe
they can't say to family orfriends.
(27:46):
For fear of judgment or.
Being perceived as a badparent.
I know what it's like.
I know what it's like to loveyour children with every cell in
your body, and to have thesemental health struggles
connected to the parentingjourney.
And just because you're okaywith one kid and you stabilize
and feel all right, doesn't meanthat things are gonna be okay
with the second child or thethird or the fourth or whatever
(28:07):
your family structure lookslike.
Meagan (28:09):
Wow.
Thank you first of all forbeing so vulnerable and sharing
that whole motherhood journeywith us here.
This is exactly the type ofstories that we need shared, and
there's so much power inputting words to it, and I know
it took a lot of bravery for youto summarize all of it in that
way, so I really appreciate thatyou showed up here, willing to
do that.
Lauren (28:30):
Certainly.
I don't think that it answeredyour original question about
knowing about it, but thestruggles were such an integral
part of my early motherhoodexperience that it's difficult
to separate knowing when to gofrom one to two, without
acknowledging there were thingsthat needed to happen, before we
could do that.
Meagan (28:48):
Absolutely through your story.
What I kept thinking too isthat, the motherhood journey and
pregnancies and having childrenand that whole shift, it
highlights a lot of thestruggles in life that happen
anyway.
whether you're naturally aperson that struggles with
anxiety or you're dealing with amother who is.
Battling cancer or you have aloss in the family, or you have
(29:10):
job struggles or any other fillin the blank stressor, all of
those parts of life don't stopjust because you happen to be
pregnant and have an infant therest of life doesn't stop.
But the fact that you are inthis particular place, in your
world and in your body makes allthe rest of it heightened.
All of it together makes it allexponentially more.
(29:30):
And when things are more, weneed more support.
We need more people around us.
for you, that women's group andhaving a circle of women that
you could be real with seemed tomake all the difference.
Lauren (29:44):
It really did.
And yes, that word heightened.
There is just such a sharpnessto everything after you have a
child, and we should all overourselves during this time.
I should be enjoying this.
This should be easier.
I should be able to get throughthis.
But when everything does feelheightened and sharper, like you
(30:04):
said, that's a call for moresupport, not self-judgment.
let's be compassionate withourselves in this major thing
that we are going through andask for more because we really
deserve it.
Meagan (30:16):
Absolutely.
And that starts even in thefertility journey in the
beginning.
And I'm so sorry that you hadto go through the grief of a
miscarriage we could do a wholeepisode on the grief that women
experience, especially inreproductive parts of their
lives, it's a disenfranchisedloss.
It's not one that we recognizenearly as much as we should in
the society.
(30:36):
as a woman myself, gettingolder, I'm a noun.
I'm 34, I'm in my mid, almostthirties, and I never recognized
in most of my twenties that wasso common.
I.
It wasn't until I had a lot ofmy friends go through, getting,
their own mother journey startedand seeing their sisters and
their friends go through it.
(30:57):
you hear about it throughstories and you realize as you
get older, boy, these storiesare becoming more and more
common.
And when you're a teenager andwhen you're in your twenties,
even.
A lot of women are so focusedon not getting pregnant.
That we never are really taughtto think about fertility and
we're never taught how common itis to struggle with these
things where do you hear it?
(31:18):
Other than by women justtalking behind closed doors.
And that's really part of whatwe're doing on this podcast is
taking those conversations andputting them out more publicly
so that it's not such a shockwhen you start to realize this
is way more of a prevalentproblem than anyone gave me any
inclination of.
Lauren (31:35):
Yes.
That's the big theme here,isn't it?
It is just I didn't know.
I didn't know this.
And it was exactly that.
That was exactly my experiencewith suffering.
The miscarriage is all of asudden you become part of this
club that you didn't wanna bepart of, but that there's a lot
of other people who are membersof that club and the healing
(31:57):
piece.
Is in connecting and sharingand grieving that
disenfranchised loss togetherand allowing yourself permission
to acknowledge that it is amajor loss and it's okay to feel
sad and it's okay to talk aboutit.
Meagan (32:12):
Absolutely.
So you are now a therapistspecializing in women's mental
health, pre and postpartum care,parenting care, motherhood
care.
And you've not onlyacademically learned what to do
about all of this, but you'vehealed from it yourself.
I'm wondering what you canshare with folks that are
struggling with this and maybeare realizing I am at that point
(32:33):
where I need to reach out forsome.
Support here.
What can they expect to happenin therapy session?
What works to heal thoseintrusive thoughts or some of
the other heightened symptomsthat we've talked about?
Lauren (32:47):
That's a great question.
I think one of the biggestthings to acknowledge is that
what can feel the most healingis being witnessed.
And seen and held in your pain,whether that's through other
women, through, joining part ofa group or in a therapy session
it is that relationship, thattherapeutic alliance that you
(33:09):
have that connection thatcommunity and a safeness where
you can feel.
Free to express what you needto express because again we're
taught that we are supposed tobe experiencing motherhood in a
specific way, and it feels veryshameful if we are not
experiencing it in that way.
so it's a huge goal for me toprovide a safe, non-judgmental,
(33:34):
compassionate space for women.
To say whatever they need tosay, the scary things, the bad
things, the things that theyfeel ashamed about.
so what you should be able toexpect when you go to seek help
in your perinatal, postpartumperiod or any other time in your
life, is that you will be metwith compassion and A genuine
(33:54):
interest and curiosity in whoyou are, what your experience
is, what your story is, and avalidation that what you're
experiencing makes sense.
And is okay and that there arethings that we can do to treat
it.
So postpartum depression,postpartum anxiety, these can be
really scary things toexperience and to acknowledge
(34:15):
that you have, but they'rehighly treatable.
So you can not just talk aboutwhere you've been and where you
are, but where you wanna be andcollaborate with your therapist
on your treatment.
thriving as much as you're ableto in the context you have
available to you in yourparenting and motherhood
journey.
Meagan (34:35):
Very well said.
And no therapeutic journeylooks the same.
So what works for one mom isnot gonna work for another.
Yeah.
But it's a combination ofworking in context of other
mothers.
Of other women, of yourtherapist to have connection.
And of course I can't not quoteBrene Brown here, but shame
can't live in the light.
(34:55):
So bringing a lot of it intothe light that in itself can be
healing.
Yeah.
Just to be witnessed.
Yes.
Lauren (35:02):
All of our stories are so precious and they really
deserve to be heard.
it can be really powerful toname what's happening to us.
And to be able to be an activeparticipant in the narrative of
our lives.
Meagan (35:15):
That's a really beautiful way to say it.
Be an active participant in thenarrative.
I imagine as we gatherlisteners to this episode, most
of them are gonna be mothers,but there's probably a good
demographic out there that arewhat we call fence sitters.
The women who are consideringmotherhood but aren't sure and
do a lot of that academicresearch that you talked about
(35:36):
to really figure out, is thisright for me or not?
What information do I need tohave to make the best decision I
can for myself?
And as one of those fencesitters, I wanna maybe selfishly
ask you, what would you sharewith those women that are
contemplating becoming mothersthrough pregnancy or through
adoption or to maybe decide notto?
(35:56):
What would you share with them?
Lauren (35:58):
I would share that no matter what your decision is you
have the right to make yourdecision free of cultural
influences, whether that'sfamily the wider culture that
you should have full controlover your reproductive
experience and that you deserveto trust yourself.
In the decisions that youultimately make about whether or
(36:21):
not you decide to bring a lifeinto the world women have
tremendous value outside of therole of mom.
And even though it is such ajoy in my life, I am also so
much more than a mom.
so no matter what way youchoose it is valid.
It is wonderful and the worldneeds your gifts, whether those
(36:43):
are steeped in motherhood ornot.
Meagan (36:45):
Thank you for saying that.
That is absolutely beautifuland so true.
I couldn't agree more.
That's such great advice forany women listening to this.
You are so much more than anyone of your roles.
Thank you for your time today,Lauren.
This was such a powerfulepisode and I know it's gonna
help so many people.
So I really appreciate yourcourage and your vulnerability
and your expertise that youshared with us here today.
Lauren (37:07):
Thank you so much for allowing the space for my story.
I love to be in session with myclients and hearing them.
Talk about their stories and Iwelcome so much their
vulnerability that I only feelit's right to be able to model
that and to be able to tell mystory and be vulnerable in that.
(37:28):
So again, thank you forallowing the space for that and
allowing me to express mypassion for helping and
supporting the perinatal andpostpartum population.
Meagan (37:37):
Absolutely.
And if anyone has listened tothis and wants to meet and work
with Lauren, we'll put herprofile link with her contact
information in the show notes,as well as some of the crisis
resources that we mentioned forgeneral crisis support as well
as miscarriage support.
For potential moms who are inneed.
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