June 2, 2025 • 14 mins
Episode Overview
The start of the partnership between Dr. Seuss and publisher Random House. CEO Bennett Cerf wooed little known children’s author Theodor “Ted” Geisel. Beginning with a lunch at the 21 Club in NYC, Cerf showed Ted unwavering publisher support despite early flops like The Seven Lady Godivas. Cerf’s long bet on Geisel illustrates the importance of recognizing creative talent and the economic value of a strong backlist.
What You’ll Hear:
Time | Topic
00:00 | Cold‑open
01:05 | Intro
02:30 | Geisel’s first book And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street, 1937
05:40 | Cerf promises to publish anything Geisel writes, including a book with “naked ladies”
07:15 | Early releases in 1939: The King’s Stilts & the spectacular flop The Seven Lady Godivas
10:05 | Long‑term contract and WWII
13:20 | Modest post‑war titles
15:05 | Breakthrough and backlist
19:30 | Random House buys Vanguard Press in 1989 because of Seuss
21:15 | Betting on talent
23:00 | Bibliography & sign‑off
(Timestamps are approximate)
People Discussed:
Bennett Cerf | Publisher & co‑founder / long‑time CEO of Random House | 00:24
Theodor “Ted” Geisel/Dr. Seuss | Children’s author and illustrator | 00:35
Robert Bernstein | Publisher; CEO of Random House (1970‑1989) | 12:31
Judith Morgan | Biographer, co‑author of Dr. Seuss and Mr. Geisel | 13:46
Neil Morgan | Biographer, co‑author of Dr. Seuss and Mr. Geisel | 13:46
Brian J. Jones | Biographer, author of Becoming Dr.Seuss | 14:00
Some Takeaways:
- Commitment: Cerf’s “I’ll print anything you do” pledge shows how decisive belief in an author can change careers—and companies.
- Flops Aren’t Fatal: Even a disaster selling fewer than 50 copies didn’t shake Cerf’s confidence in Seuss.
- Backlist matters: Once Seuss became successful, every prior title turned into a perpetual revenue stream, for him and for Random House.
- It Can Take Time: Geisel’s real breakout books came 20 years after his debut.
Recommended Reading
- Dr.Seuss & Mr.Geisel by Judith & Neil Morgan (Random House, 1995)
- Becoming Dr.Seuss by Brian Jay Jones (Dutton / Penguin Random House, 2019)
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Credits
Host, writer, & editor: Will Jauquet
Cover art: Designed by Wili Joel Productions
©2025 I’ll Probably Delete This. All rights reserved.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker (00:00):
Find someone who loves you the way Bennett Cerf loved
doctor Seuss.
Hello, listeners. Welcome toI'll Probably Delete This, where
I learn about the bookpublishing industry and
podcasting by telling storiesfrom successful authors and
(00:20):
other notable people from thehistory of trade publishing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
There are lots of stories to tell from the career
of Theodore Geisel. In thisepisode, we will focus on just
one. The CEO of Random Housefirst wooing and then offering
seemingly unwavering support toTed Geisel and his writing
persona, Dr. Seuss. Geiseltested that commitment early and
(00:49):
it took a very long time forBennett Cerf's commitment to pay
off, but boy did it ever. Infuture episodes, we will cover
more stories from othersuccessful authors and
storytellers. Join me for thisepisode as we learn more about
Dr. Seuss.
Speaker (01:09):
Ted Geisel was 33 years old when his first book gets
published. Vanguard Presspublished and to think that I
saw it on Mulberry Street inSeptember of nineteen thirty
seven. This was the firstchildren's book he had done. He
illustrated it and used his penname Doctor. Seuss as he would
(01:31):
for all of his children's books.
In Mulberry Street, Geisel toldthe story of kind of the
imaginative young boy namedMarco and what that boy wished
he had seen on a normal daywalking home on Mulberry Street.
The book sold decently well, butwas no smash hit. Vanguard
(01:54):
ordered an initial printing of15,000 books, a pretty
aggressive initial printing forthis small publishing house. The
book would go on to a secondprinting within two years, so
pretty successful. And after sixyears, it had sold more than
30,000 copies and earned Geiselmore than $3,000, around $3,500.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
In 2025 dollars, Ted had earned in the six years,
between sort of 70,000 and$80,000 for the book. Good
money, but obviously not enoughthat he could live off of.
Vanguard also published the nextDr. Seuss book a year later.
That one is The 500 Hats ofBartholomew Cubbins. It sold
(02:44):
fine, but not as well asMulberry Street.
But even before 500 hats cameout, Bennett Cerf reached out to
set up a meeting. Bennett Cerfwas the CEO of Random House. He
co founded Random House a littlemore than a decade before. They
end up meeting in New York atthe Twenty One Club for lunch.
(03:10):
Geisel, in that period, wasmoving back and forth between
San Diego where he was trying tomove permanently and New York
City.
The purpose of the meeting wasSurf wanted to lure Ted away
from Vanguard so that RandomHouse would be his book
publisher going forward. In thatmeeting, Surf quickly committed
(03:34):
to publishing any book thatGeisel wrote. And he asked while
they were eating theirhamburgers if Geisel had any
book ideas or was he working onany projects. And Ted's reply
was not especially, but he wenton to say, maybe an adult book
(03:56):
with naked ladies. To Cerf'scredit, he didn't hesitate.
His response was immediate andenthusiastic. He said, great.
I'll buy it. You come with meand I'll print anything you do.
And that essentially sealed thediscussion.
From then on out, Ted Geisel,Doctor. Seuss would publish all
(04:20):
of his books through RandomHouse for the rest of his
career. Geisel did write thatbook about naked ladies, and
Random House did in fact publishit. Thankfully though, for both
of them, he wrote another bookat the same time that came out
first. That book was The King'sStilts, came out in 1939.
(04:42):
It ended up selling fewer than5,000 copies over the first two
years that it was in print. Thenext book, the one he had
mentioned to surf at their lunchwas The Seven Lady Godivas. It
did even worse, which is anunderstatement. There's one book
that suggests that in sixmonths, it sold fewer than 50
(05:03):
copies. It was an unmitigatedfailure, and Random House had
done a relatively aggressiveprinting of 10,000 copies, the
majority of which it would laterhave to destroy.
Doctor Seuss did bounce back in1940 with Horton Hatches the
Egg, which sells 8,000 copies intwo years. And even though his
(05:28):
books are selling okay,excluding the Seven Lady
Godiva's, and despite the factthat Ted isn't making a living
off of the books that he'spublishing, Cerf is promoting
the books and sending Ted onbook signings to shopping
centers in various parts of thecountry sends him off on,
relatively plush train car toOhio at one point. So even after
(05:55):
the Seven Lady Godivas, Cerfalso pushes Ted to sign a long
term contract with Random House.Even after the failure, which
certainly was a financialfailure for the house, he is
really pushing Ted to sign onand to commit because he's he
wants to commit to Ted, wantsTed to understand that he's
(06:15):
supportive. But all of this workgets put on hold because of the
coming war.
Ted doesn't publish any otherchildren's books for seven
years. In the lead up to thewar, he's writing political
cartoons, and he's doing thatunder the name of doctor Seuss.
After Pearl Harbor in latenineteen forty one, he enlists
(06:39):
in the the army. He does that inearly nineteen forty two and
starts his commission, and heserves in the army signal corps
making movies for the army,training videos, promotional
videos, what have you. And hedoesn't return to book
publishing until 1947, and inthe interim he also has some
(07:02):
dabbling with Hollywood andlearns how to make films.
When he comes back to writingand drawing kids books, which he
affectionately called bratbooks, as he does in 1947, he
would have real but somewhatmodest success with them over
the next ten years. And thebooks he published included
(07:25):
Thidwick, The Big Hearted Moose,Horton Hears a Who, which is in
a way kind of a follow-up toHorton Hatches the Egg, and then
If I Ran the Zoo are are notableamong the books that he's
publishing. And essentially from'47 forward almost till the end
of his life, he's publishingalmost a new book a year. And in
(07:46):
terms of his success, all ofthat changes in 1957 when Ted
ends up writing two books thatyear that have huge sales, and
in a way, changed the publishingindustry in in significant
respects. But that's a storywe'll save for another time and
(08:06):
another episode.
So Cerf's bet on Dr. Seuss didpay off, and it paid off in a
huge way. So once Dr. Seuss andthe Dr. Seuss books have a hit,
and he ended up writing severalhits over his career, every
other book in the catalogbecomes more valuable.
(08:27):
He published more than 50 bookswith Random House before he was
through. And so in an industrywhere most of the profit for
publishing is driven by sales ofthe back catalog, sort of
already published books thatwere no longer being actively
promoted. Ted's back catalogends up being a huge boon for
(08:51):
Random House. So Random House,even today, continues to make
really significant profits offof Doctor Seuss books and sort
of as an aside, just a few weeksback, I was walking through a
local Target and they had a bigdisplay of Doctor Seuss books
for sale. They're still selling,still making a lot of profit off
(09:12):
of Dr.
Seuss even thirty years afterhis death. But one of the things
I hope you're asking or shouldbe asking is why did Bennett
Cerf, the CEO of Random House,commit and commit so early to
Doctor. Seuss, to Ted Geisel? Ifyou think about it, Ted had
published one children's book.He hadn't published any adult
(09:33):
books and really doesn't haveany success publishing adult
books.
And that book, Mulberry Streethad done relatively well, but
wasn't a huge hit. Hissubsequent books weren't all
that successful and he had oneone really significant flop, but
Cerf's commitment to him reallydoesn't waver from that first
(09:54):
lunch that that he has. And onething you should wonder is like
why? Like, what was it that madeSurf commit and and why did he
stick with it? And he reallytried to show Ted over time that
he continued to be committed,continued to be excited about
the work, continued to give giveTed authority to decide what he
(10:16):
was gonna write, how he wasgonna write it, when he would
write it.
And I think sort of the simpleanswer is probably the right one
here. That surf thought TedGeisel was a really unique and
special talent and wanted to beton him and bet on him big. One
(10:40):
thing that Cerf was known forsaying, and if you read a
biography of doctor Seuss, youwill surely come across this, is
he would say, and Random Househad a number of really
successful authors, reallynotable authors who won lots of
awards and prizes. So WilliamFaulkner, John Updike after an
(11:03):
acquisition, Truman Capote, anda number of others. And Cerf was
known to say that they had lotsof very very successful, very
talented, very bright authors.
But in Random House, there wasonly one true genius, and that
(11:23):
was Ted Geisel. And his faithand commitment in Ted Geisel,
Doctor. Seuss, really did payoff. I mean, it has been a huge
moneymaker for Random House.They got out really interesting
books.
The the artwork and thechildren's books and the rhyme
scheme are things that nobodyelse was doing, and it
(11:44):
fundamentally changed children'sliterature. So the the bet that
SURF made certainly did pay offand paid off big for both of
them. Ted Geisel ended up makinglots of money and lots of money
personally and also made lots ofmoney for Random House. It was a
good deal for both of them, andTed was able to live very
(12:06):
comfortably and continue topursue what became sort of his
life's work and his obsession. Anice addendum to this part of
the Doctor.
Seuss and and Bennett Cerf storyis the acquisition of Vanguard
Press. Cerf retired as CEO fromRandom House in 1970. Robert
(12:31):
Bernstein succeeded him, andBernstein had a a pretty good
relationship with Geisel and methim regularly, and I think it
was his editor at one point.Bernstein served as CEO from
1970 up through 1989. And one ofthe last sort of major decisions
(12:52):
and acts that Bernstein did washe had Random House acquire
Vanguard Press.
Vanguard had back catalog, theyhad active authors, but one
thing that Bernstein would saywas he did it because he wanted
those two Doctor Seuss booksthat Random House didn't have.
(13:15):
Essentially, that was hisdriving reason to buy a
competing publishing house wasbecause he wanted the two
Doctor. Seuss books that RandomHouse didn't have. It's time for
the bibliography. If you likethis story, if you wanna learn
(13:36):
more, I have two bookrecommendations for you.
The first is Dr. Seuss and Mr.Geisel by Judith and Neil
Morgan, published by, nosurprise, Random House in 1995.
So they published the book justa few years after Geisel's
death. And the second isBecoming Doctor.
(14:00):
Seuss by Brian J. Jones,published by Dutton, which is an
imprint of Penguin Random Housein 2019, so more recent. Both of
them are really interesting,compelling books, and Geisel had
a pretty interesting life. Ifyou can, find someone to love
(14:20):
you as much as Bennett Cerf didDr. Seuss and can commit to you
in the same way.
Thanks for joining me. I hopeyou join me next time for
another episode of I'll ProbablyDelete This, where we'll explore
more stories of authors,storytellers, great books, and
(14:40):
publishing.
Find someone who loves you the way Bennett Cerf loved
doctor Seuss.
Hello, listeners. Welcome toI'll Probably Delete This, where
I learn about the bookpublishing industry and
podcasting by telling storiesfrom successful authors and
(00:20):
other notable people from thehistory of trade publishing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
There are lots of stories to tell from the career
of Theodore Geisel. In thisepisode, we will focus on just
one. The CEO of Random Housefirst wooing and then offering
seemingly unwavering support toTed Geisel and his writing
persona, Dr. Seuss. Geiseltested that commitment early and
(00:49):
it took a very long time forBennett Cerf's commitment to pay
off, but boy did it ever. Infuture episodes, we will cover
more stories from othersuccessful authors and
storytellers. Join me for thisepisode as we learn more about
Dr. Seuss.
Speaker (01:09):
Ted Geisel was 33 years old when his first book gets
published. Vanguard Presspublished and to think that I
saw it on Mulberry Street inSeptember of nineteen thirty
seven. This was the firstchildren's book he had done. He
illustrated it and used his penname Doctor. Seuss as he would
(01:31):
for all of his children's books.
In Mulberry Street, Geisel toldthe story of kind of the
imaginative young boy namedMarco and what that boy wished
he had seen on a normal daywalking home on Mulberry Street.
The book sold decently well, butwas no smash hit. Vanguard
(01:54):
ordered an initial printing of15,000 books, a pretty
aggressive initial printing forthis small publishing house. The
book would go on to a secondprinting within two years, so
pretty successful. And after sixyears, it had sold more than
30,000 copies and earned Geiselmore than $3,000, around $3,500.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
In 2025 dollars, Ted had earned in the six years,
between sort of 70,000 and$80,000 for the book. Good
money, but obviously not enoughthat he could live off of.
Vanguard also published the nextDr. Seuss book a year later.
That one is The 500 Hats ofBartholomew Cubbins. It sold
(02:44):
fine, but not as well asMulberry Street.
But even before 500 hats cameout, Bennett Cerf reached out to
set up a meeting. Bennett Cerfwas the CEO of Random House. He
co founded Random House a littlemore than a decade before. They
end up meeting in New York atthe Twenty One Club for lunch.
(03:10):
Geisel, in that period, wasmoving back and forth between
San Diego where he was trying tomove permanently and New York
City.
The purpose of the meeting wasSurf wanted to lure Ted away
from Vanguard so that RandomHouse would be his book
publisher going forward. In thatmeeting, Surf quickly committed
(03:34):
to publishing any book thatGeisel wrote. And he asked while
they were eating theirhamburgers if Geisel had any
book ideas or was he working onany projects. And Ted's reply
was not especially, but he wenton to say, maybe an adult book
(03:56):
with naked ladies. To Cerf'scredit, he didn't hesitate.
His response was immediate andenthusiastic. He said, great.
I'll buy it. You come with meand I'll print anything you do.
And that essentially sealed thediscussion.
From then on out, Ted Geisel,Doctor. Seuss would publish all
(04:20):
of his books through RandomHouse for the rest of his
career. Geisel did write thatbook about naked ladies, and
Random House did in fact publishit. Thankfully though, for both
of them, he wrote another bookat the same time that came out
first. That book was The King'sStilts, came out in 1939.
(04:42):
It ended up selling fewer than5,000 copies over the first two
years that it was in print. Thenext book, the one he had
mentioned to surf at their lunchwas The Seven Lady Godivas. It
did even worse, which is anunderstatement. There's one book
that suggests that in sixmonths, it sold fewer than 50
(05:03):
copies. It was an unmitigatedfailure, and Random House had
done a relatively aggressiveprinting of 10,000 copies, the
majority of which it would laterhave to destroy.
Doctor Seuss did bounce back in1940 with Horton Hatches the
Egg, which sells 8,000 copies intwo years. And even though his
(05:28):
books are selling okay,excluding the Seven Lady
Godiva's, and despite the factthat Ted isn't making a living
off of the books that he'spublishing, Cerf is promoting
the books and sending Ted onbook signings to shopping
centers in various parts of thecountry sends him off on,
relatively plush train car toOhio at one point. So even after
(05:55):
the Seven Lady Godivas, Cerfalso pushes Ted to sign a long
term contract with Random House.Even after the failure, which
certainly was a financialfailure for the house, he is
really pushing Ted to sign onand to commit because he's he
wants to commit to Ted, wantsTed to understand that he's
(06:15):
supportive. But all of this workgets put on hold because of the
coming war.
Ted doesn't publish any otherchildren's books for seven
years. In the lead up to thewar, he's writing political
cartoons, and he's doing thatunder the name of doctor Seuss.
After Pearl Harbor in latenineteen forty one, he enlists
(06:39):
in the the army. He does that inearly nineteen forty two and
starts his commission, and heserves in the army signal corps
making movies for the army,training videos, promotional
videos, what have you. And hedoesn't return to book
publishing until 1947, and inthe interim he also has some
(07:02):
dabbling with Hollywood andlearns how to make films.
When he comes back to writingand drawing kids books, which he
affectionately called bratbooks, as he does in 1947, he
would have real but somewhatmodest success with them over
the next ten years. And thebooks he published included
(07:25):
Thidwick, The Big Hearted Moose,Horton Hears a Who, which is in
a way kind of a follow-up toHorton Hatches the Egg, and then
If I Ran the Zoo are are notableamong the books that he's
publishing. And essentially from'47 forward almost till the end
of his life, he's publishingalmost a new book a year. And in
(07:46):
terms of his success, all ofthat changes in 1957 when Ted
ends up writing two books thatyear that have huge sales, and
in a way, changed the publishingindustry in in significant
respects. But that's a storywe'll save for another time and
(08:06):
another episode.
So Cerf's bet on Dr. Seuss didpay off, and it paid off in a
huge way. So once Dr. Seuss andthe Dr. Seuss books have a hit,
and he ended up writing severalhits over his career, every
other book in the catalogbecomes more valuable.
(08:27):
He published more than 50 bookswith Random House before he was
through. And so in an industrywhere most of the profit for
publishing is driven by sales ofthe back catalog, sort of
already published books thatwere no longer being actively
promoted. Ted's back catalogends up being a huge boon for
(08:51):
Random House. So Random House,even today, continues to make
really significant profits offof Doctor Seuss books and sort
of as an aside, just a few weeksback, I was walking through a
local Target and they had a bigdisplay of Doctor Seuss books
for sale. They're still selling,still making a lot of profit off
(09:12):
of Dr.
Seuss even thirty years afterhis death. But one of the things
I hope you're asking or shouldbe asking is why did Bennett
Cerf, the CEO of Random House,commit and commit so early to
Doctor. Seuss, to Ted Geisel? Ifyou think about it, Ted had
published one children's book.He hadn't published any adult
(09:33):
books and really doesn't haveany success publishing adult
books.
And that book, Mulberry Streethad done relatively well, but
wasn't a huge hit. Hissubsequent books weren't all
that successful and he had oneone really significant flop, but
Cerf's commitment to him reallydoesn't waver from that first
(09:54):
lunch that that he has. And onething you should wonder is like
why? Like, what was it that madeSurf commit and and why did he
stick with it? And he reallytried to show Ted over time that
he continued to be committed,continued to be excited about
the work, continued to give giveTed authority to decide what he
(10:16):
was gonna write, how he wasgonna write it, when he would
write it.
And I think sort of the simpleanswer is probably the right one
here. That surf thought TedGeisel was a really unique and
special talent and wanted to beton him and bet on him big. One
(10:40):
thing that Cerf was known forsaying, and if you read a
biography of doctor Seuss, youwill surely come across this, is
he would say, and Random Househad a number of really
successful authors, reallynotable authors who won lots of
awards and prizes. So WilliamFaulkner, John Updike after an
(11:03):
acquisition, Truman Capote, anda number of others. And Cerf was
known to say that they had lotsof very very successful, very
talented, very bright authors.
But in Random House, there wasonly one true genius, and that
(11:23):
was Ted Geisel. And his faithand commitment in Ted Geisel,
Doctor. Seuss, really did payoff. I mean, it has been a huge
moneymaker for Random House.They got out really interesting
books.
The the artwork and thechildren's books and the rhyme
scheme are things that nobodyelse was doing, and it
(11:44):
fundamentally changed children'sliterature. So the the bet that
SURF made certainly did pay offand paid off big for both of
them. Ted Geisel ended up makinglots of money and lots of money
personally and also made lots ofmoney for Random House. It was a
good deal for both of them, andTed was able to live very
(12:06):
comfortably and continue topursue what became sort of his
life's work and his obsession. Anice addendum to this part of
the Doctor.
Seuss and and Bennett Cerf storyis the acquisition of Vanguard
Press. Cerf retired as CEO fromRandom House in 1970. Robert
(12:31):
Bernstein succeeded him, andBernstein had a a pretty good
relationship with Geisel and methim regularly, and I think it
was his editor at one point.Bernstein served as CEO from
1970 up through 1989. And one ofthe last sort of major decisions
(12:52):
and acts that Bernstein did washe had Random House acquire
Vanguard Press.
Vanguard had back catalog, theyhad active authors, but one
thing that Bernstein would saywas he did it because he wanted
those two Doctor Seuss booksthat Random House didn't have.
(13:15):
Essentially, that was hisdriving reason to buy a
competing publishing house wasbecause he wanted the two
Doctor. Seuss books that RandomHouse didn't have. It's time for
the bibliography. If you likethis story, if you wanna learn
(13:36):
more, I have two bookrecommendations for you.
The first is Dr. Seuss and Mr.Geisel by Judith and Neil
Morgan, published by, nosurprise, Random House in 1995.
So they published the book justa few years after Geisel's
death. And the second isBecoming Doctor.
(14:00):
Seuss by Brian J. Jones,published by Dutton, which is an
imprint of Penguin Random Housein 2019, so more recent. Both of
them are really interesting,compelling books, and Geisel had
a pretty interesting life. Ifyou can, find someone to love
(14:20):
you as much as Bennett Cerf didDr. Seuss and can commit to you
in the same way.
Thanks for joining me. I hopeyou join me next time for
another episode of I'll ProbablyDelete This, where we'll explore
more stories of authors,storytellers, great books, and
(14:40):
publishing.
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