Episode 34: Our Warhammer 40k 10th Edition Predictions

This week we discuss some of the new releases before diving into some of Games Workshop’s biggest scandals over the years. We then chat about our final predictions for 10th edition Warhammer 40k before jumping into how we strayed away from citadel paints and why you should too. We finish off with our lore topic where this week we go over some of our favourite black library novels.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I think Grey Knights are going to have an epic range refresh.

(00:03):
It's going to be interesting because do you think they're going to primaris them up?
Or do you think they're going to like?
No, I think in the lore primaris won't exist for the...
Do you think they'll just scale them up?
They'll just scale them up.
They'll just scale.
Make them look bigger.
Because at the end of the day, right, if the rumours are that it's the emperor's
gene seed anyway, it's the fucking emperor.

(00:24):
Was old Kristall and Kro actually made into primaris? He wasn't, was he?
No.
He's just scaled, right?
He's just scaled.
Yeah, he's just scaled up.
Just do that.
His model's sexy.
They all look like that.
It's one of the best models.
Yeah, this is it.
And the terminators as well.
Because don't get me wrong, I do like them.
I love their helmets.
They are probably the best knights factions out of all of the Space Marine factions.

(00:45):
You hold your fucking tongue.
You hold your fucking tongue.
That was such easy bait.
I was literally like...
You hold your fucking tongue, mate.
Nah, you can suck...
I saw your faces drop.
They are very knightly, though.
You've got to...
I'm pretty cool.
Yeah, but they're not the OGs, are they?
They're not the first.
They're not the first legion.

(01:05):
I love great knights, so fuck off.
Welcome to the In the Tank podcast.
Get ready for an hour of hot 40k goodness coming in your ears.
So you're in the tank now, baby.
We are live.
We are indeed live.

(01:25):
Welcome, everybody, to In the Tank.
How are you doing, my absolutely fabulous, gorgeous color host, Ed?
I'm great, mate.
How are you?
I'm doing all right.
I'm doing all right.
Struggling through winter blues, but hey, I've got a tawny on the horizon, so life is good.
Life is very, very good indeed.
What's been going on in the old chateau, Eddie, then, lad?

(01:47):
It looks like you're in a new place.
Right off the bat.
Indeed in the new studio, finally.
The equest room in Great Britain currently because it hasn't been sound treated yet.
Good job you're not going to be recording in there.
Do you know what I mean?
Right.
I've moved my computer over here, so I can't do it at home anymore because I'm setting all
the cameras up and stuff.
But yeah, so we're in here now.

(02:08):
So if it is a little bit echoey this episode, I do apologize.
I'll try and correct as much of it in post as possible.
But yeah, we're here finally.
It's exciting.
Looking good, mate.
Looking good.
It kind of looks like a prison's behind you.
You're going to have to escape.
Yeah, yeah.
A prison of the mind.
Awesome.
How are you?
What have you been up to?

(02:29):
I've been good.
I've been good.
Just kind of getting through life really.
Still painting and getting my stern guard finished and sending you babbly messages of
insanity as I'm kind of doing that.
That one that you sent me yesterday was hilarious because you were like,
I'm losing my fucking mind.
And I was like, you really just started painting them.
What's wrong with you?
I hate it.
I hate it.

(02:50):
What's bad about painting them?
Is it the robes or what?
What are you struggling with?
I just hate doing blocks of 10.
I'm just trying to do 10 in one go.
I'm trying to do 10 in one go.
And I'm like, why am I doing this to myself?
Like, why am I doing it to myself?
But it'd be fine.
I'll get it all done.
You'll get through.
It'll be fine.
You'll be fine.
I'll be fine.
It'll be all fine.
You're hard.

(03:10):
Yeah, I'm hard.
I'm a hard boy.
What have you been painting, palette cleanser boy?
So I've been painting a few Death Guard models.
I haven't actually really had much time this week to paint them
because I've been painting this battle barn.
So it's almost there, the studio room.
We've basically got one more coat on the main walls.
And then I've got to do all the ceilings.
So like sort of two thirds of the way through, really, which is good.

(03:32):
But the models I've been painting are a squad of five plague marines
with a malignant plague caster and a terminator, sorry, a sorcerer in terminator armor.
Because I was going to paint just the five man and the other guy.
And I was like, I've got to do the blessed number of models.
So I thought I do seven.
Seven.
Seven.
Has to be done.

(03:52):
Has to be done.
That's very cool.
That's very cool.
I need to talk to you about some hobby news because there's been some hobby news.
Have you seen the absolutely obscene Emperor's Children Codex limited edition one?
Yeah, with its little quarter of a coin.
I am gutted because in my year of chaos,
I could have thought of nothing better than to have that coin like framed and shit.

(04:14):
It would be really cool.
So one half of me is like, how much is that fucking thing going to be?
And then the other half of me is going, that's going to be like 200 pounds or something.
And I'm like, I'm good.
But I'm tempted.
I'm very, very tempted.
I think you and quite a lot of other people.
It does look a very sexy Codex.
Either way, I'm going to want the Death Guard one.
Oh, yeah, me too, for sure.
I think so one of my mates, males, he was messaging me the other day.

(04:37):
And he was like, you know, for sure that if I buy this Emperor's Children one
with the coin and everything, and then I'll buy all the other ones,
because he loves chaos, that he's just not going to be able to get one of them
for whatever reason, like it will just sell out.
And then you'll end up with like three quarters of a coin.
This is it.
This is it.
You've got to then contest with the horrendousness that is GW Limited Edition.
Yeah.
And then eBay scalpers and oh, no thank you.

(05:00):
Not fun.
Not fun.
I'll just get the regular old Death Guard Codex.
Thank you.
Oh, no, I'm going to get the Uber Death Guard Codex
because you still get the objective markers that are fun and stuff like that.
Well, I've made my own ones for, you know, for like how they get sticky objectives and stuff.
Yes.
So I've actually just, my sticky objective markers for my Death Guard are tiny little

(05:20):
nerdlings on 25 mil bases that are just sort of jumping around.
I've got loads of different ones.
Yeah, yeah, get them ass.
Is that good?
Yeah, they're nice.
Very cool.
And we've also had the preview of the frogs for Old World.
Yeah, you love those, don't you?
Transfrogification.
So I don't know if you know that there's the most OP magic item in the Old World ever that

(05:42):
you can take as a generic magical item for any wizard that basically allows you to wizard
jewel another wizard and turn them into a fucking frog.
Polymorph them, yeah.
Polymorph them into a frog so that 500 point level four wizard is now a frog for the rest
of the game because you can't roll four up at the beginning of your turn.
And they got the tokens for it and I'm like, yes, fucking let me have 10 of those.

(06:04):
Yes, please.
And of course, I might need one of those because I'm getting Beastman dreams, Ed.
I'm getting Beastman dreams.
I can't stop after our last episode.
Taylor's Oldest Time.
I went to a petting zoo with Leo and there was like loads of goats and they were whispering.
I'm worried about you, boss.
I'm worried about you.

(06:25):
Meh, play Beastman.
Was one of them stood up on two legs?
Did it have like a crucifix?
Not a crucifix, it's the pentagram in his head.
Yeah, exactly.
Either way, what I might do is by the start...
Just stop.
No, no, no.
What I might do, you see, what I might do is by the starting box, like when they do
the range refresh, like the box, the opening stuff that army was.

(06:48):
Have you seen that cool blind Bray Shaman with his little belly on the rock that's like,
ehh, and the little ehh, like Bray Shaman.
I'm like, oh my God, this is what I need.
I love how all the stupid models in our minds always make the ehh noise.
It's going to be cherubs or goats or whatever.
But yes, and I even thought of a color scheme, like a really deep sort of fleshy mustard

(07:11):
yellow with blue hair because they're a zeechy culty Beastman army.
Need it.
You need it.
You need to...
Need it.
I've said this to you over text as well.
You need to fucking paint your bloody chaos army.
Shut up.
You need to finish painting your fucking Dark Angels first.
So get them done.

(07:32):
Then you can do the chaos.
Then you can do the Beastman.
I don't need to paint anything.
I just need to collect things.
Stop.
It's my year of chaosness.
Yes, but even then, like, dude, look, and then I'll probably finish because then I've got
Death Guard, then I've got Wordbearers, and I've got Second-Ed Wordbearers,
and then I've got Beastman for old worlds.

(07:53):
You've got too much on your fucking plate already.
All the chaos systems.
Let me have them all.
Yeah, far too much.
I'm just turning you down a bit so that people can't hear you coming through my ears.
Oh, well.
Just say loud and proud.
Can our fans just send me some Beastman so I don't feel guilty about it?
Just send me some Beastman.
Stop trying to get shit out of people.
You're such a little scribbler.
Please, please, please, please.

(08:14):
Well, it's worked because I've got some little...
I've got some cool stuff.
I'm like, it's so good to see.
You guys might have noticed you can finally see more of my glorious face, by the way,
because I can actually finally attach the mic to the side of the desk instead of
the fucking back of it.
Because before I had to go right over the monitor.
And I also now have my camera right in the middle of the screen, which is great.

(08:36):
So I have to have it on one side before.
It's an upgrade.
It's great.
I'm feeling it.
It's so much better.
I just need to get the sound sorted and then we're all good.
Nice.
So what we've got to talk about today...
We've got some cool topics today.
Our first one is going to be quite a controversial one, but quite a fun one.
And you weren't aware of too many of these throughout the years, right?

(08:58):
So I'm going to be your guide.
No, I've got a few that I've known about, but none of the major ones, I think.
So I'd also like to ask the community if you've heard of any of these over the years.
And so that we could do potentially another one of these, because this is really fun.
If not a bit catty.
It is GW's biggest scandals.
Oh, over the years.

(09:20):
Over the years.
So I'm going to go through some, I'm going to come with the most recent one straight off the bat,
which is the...
And you didn't know about this until we have a little chat.
I still don't think you truly understand what's going on with this.
The Army's on Parade famous U-turn that's recently happened.
Yeah, so talk to me about that one.

(09:42):
So essentially, do you know what Army's of Parade is?
Ernst, do you have any idea?
So you put your army on parade.
You have no idea, do you?
No.
Isn't it the competition where you paint a whole army and you have it on a little tray that looks...
Yeah, okay.
You've kind of got it.
Yeah.
Okay, but essentially the premise of it is it's done on a very local GW scale.

(10:07):
Yeah, my mate Paul does it.
GW themselves as well.
And you go for it.
And I don't know if store managers give out prizes or whatever.
It's done at discretion of the thing, right?
But essentially people come and they put their army on parade with a big board that's obviously
themed around your army.
And then the best ones are obviously sent to pictures of to Warhammer HQ for Mike Dwarf

(10:31):
and for Articles and stuff like that.
So yeah, it's kind of cool.
It's kind of fun.
It just allows people to show off what they've been working on all year essentially or whatever.
But GW got into the shit with it this year because they recently did a policy change
in terms of the restrictions for entering your army on parade being that you were not

(10:54):
allowed this year to mix Age of Sigmar and 40k kits as part of your army on parade.
Oh, that's lame.
Well, so you couldn't do conversions.
No, not between the systems.
So Mike Catan would be out.
Your Catan would be out.
Both of your Catan would be out.
Yeah, they would actually.
Which had a massive backlash because people were like, look, Lady Olenna,

(11:15):
the thing was actually used in Codex Necro.
Yes, she was.
For example, right.
So this was the problem was that then it seemed like the creative devs at GW that can kind of
do that was not matching what you could then do from an entry perspective.
And I think they've now done a U-turn on it.
But essentially people were like, this is the most unnecessary policy change and just

(11:38):
completely kind of blank to the whole concept.
So they've U-turned on it.
Apparently.
Good.
But even so, silly, silly, very silly.
They do do stupid shit like this.
This is it.
This is the silly stuff, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's like, come on now.
Come on.
So first.
So, so, so, so the first one that is a little bit nasty was the only hand scandal.

(12:01):
Yes.
So the only hand scandal was during the sort of midpoint of Warhammer Plus, essentially,
where as a result of G dubs losing a lot of their painting cult of personality team,
which basically involved losing Duncan Rhodes first, then losing our friend Peach next.

(12:24):
And then of course, the trifecta was old Suggsos, the legendary Suggs, bless her Louise.
They freaked out about that because you've lost all of your kind of like big early painting talent.
And to try and combat that and to stop people from having a cult of personality outside

(12:45):
the umbrella of G dubs themselves, they started to do the only hands video series,
which is the quite shitty nickname where it's just hands.
You don't get to see the person.
They don't get to introduce him.
They didn't even do little puppets.
You know, they're just there talking with their hands and stuff.
And everyone just felt this weird disconnect to that concept where people don't like that.

(13:09):
People need a human connection.
That's one of the nice things about Duncan's videos is he always has that style and he has it
on his channel to this day, where he'll sort of talk at the camera for a second and then he'll
go back and you'll see what he's doing.
Then he'll talk to you again and then he goes back.
And it's kind of personable and it's nice because you feel like you've actually been taught
in the room by a real person, right?

(13:31):
It's also how humans learn to be a teacher myself, right?
And reading quite a lot of articles in terms of like eye contact, mega important.
Even if it's not a real person, it's a video like all of those subconscious clues like
all go into your brain and help your process, if that makes sense.
Sure.
So it wasn't good for actual like teaching painting at all.

(13:52):
Like it's not conducive to like that, right?
And just the whole reason behind it is the scumbagginess of like not giving your presenters
a cult of personality when the original guys left because they didn't have their own cult
of personality because G-Dubbbz was kind of squashing their creativity and, you know,

(14:12):
not helping them develop as individuals and stuff.
It's just so tone blank, if that makes sense.
And yeah, it's not, it doesn't, I have seen that shift away and it's like, it's not great.
To be honest.
Right.
I get why, because they don't want that to happen again.
They don't want to fall into that trap.
But the problem is with doing that is that it pushes people away even further, right?

(14:34):
Yeah.
Right.
If you're disgruntled.
I don't really watch their painted videos anymore, to be honest.
Do you not?
Not, not really.
I'll be honest.
Some of the Suggs ones for Warhammer Plus are some of my favourite tutorials.
But I don't really watch the Warhammer Plus stuff.
That's fair.
So like I don't, I don't watch the stuff on their YouTube channel.
I watch other people that like War Hipster is a really good one.
Yeah.

(14:54):
There's a few people that I watch that are just great, especially the contrast.
I love the old artist Opus guys.
They're great too.
Yeah, yeah, he's cool.
Yeah.
And who else is there?
Juan Kidaglo Miniatures or something like that.
I'm probably butchering his fucking name.
Pete the Wargamer, but Pete Action.
There are some amazing channels out there that will teach you some great stuff.
And obviously Duncan's great, Peachy's great, Suggs is great.

(15:16):
You know, there's loads of them.
I kind of miss Suggs' like tuition videos in a way.
Because obviously, to be honest, she's kind of moved on to past is new.
It's more about the concept of a video, right?
Where it's like check out this cool shit.
Check out this cool old video and stuff.
And all about that life, right?
But I loved her tuition videos.
Like the Black Armor one that she did for Warhammer Plus is my go-to recipe for Black Armor ever.

(15:41):
Right?
Yeah.
Some of those are actually quite tricky to get.
If that makes sense.
Sure.
But like, I just didn't like the tone deaf element of this, right?
So there we go.
Bless you, mate.
Bless you.
Of course, we've also had another similar theme of that.
The anti-Estatis text-to-speech lockdown concept stuff as well.
Well, obviously, G-Dubbs absorbed Estates and the whole creative team and didn't really give them a choice.

(16:07):
It was kind of the ultimatum of join us at Warhammer Plus or you're going to just get sued because they're oblivion.
And a lot of channels have vanished at the same time, right?
Well, Text-to-Speech did, right?
Because again, because of that and the fact that that concept was never going to make it onto Warhammer Plus.
Let's be real, right?
Estates kids, because it was kind of like a very sort of neutral thing.

(16:27):
But when you've got like the Emperor like, Azmodite, right?
And like, I too have a beard, right?
All of a sudden that humor is way too out there for your average.
And it also bastardizes their characters and stuff like that.
So there we go.
And of course, you know, the big one, which was the death of the Old World.
Yeah.

(16:49):
Now, do you have any knowledge?
I do know about Old World.
And obviously, I know that we are you talking about the general sort of shift from Old World to AOS, right?
Yes.
So they handled that.
So basically, they I think a lot of people got quite upset about that, obviously, because it was a big shift in the law.

(17:10):
It pissed off quite a lot of people.
And then obviously, they started cutting Rangers here and there as well.
So it's a difficult one.
Really, really difficult.
I think upset quite a lot of people that did.
But obviously, they brought it back now.
It's a bit different.

(17:30):
It's an interesting one.
I think Old World was always going to be a really hard game to keep going anyway.
And I understand.
But I think the thing that people got, I think, a little bit hurt about was how bad Sigma was right off the bat.
Right.
And like there was no points costs and stuff in the early days.
And the mechanics are really fucking goofy.

(17:51):
And you went from like the most hardcore of hardcore regiment games to essentially babies first skirmish game.
So like it was it was just a bit weird in that regard.
Yeah, definitely.
But there we go.
Who played Old World out there?
Did you get a bit stunned by that?
I've not actually played Old World yet.

(18:12):
Oh, my God.
So I never played.
So I wasn't into AOS back when it was pre AOS.
That's the problem.
So I never really got into Old World style of stuff.
So I can't.
Mad mechanics.
But like really cool.

(18:32):
I've heard they had quite cool magic system.
And magic system was immense.
Absolutely immense.
Like one of the best magic systems ever.
The point of it being quite overpowered.
But then magic's magic.
So what do you think?
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
Very quick.
Some other honorable mentions.
Ignoring store results of campaigns.

(18:53):
And like whether it was like the storm.
Yeah, because we were talking about this in the Discord the other day that someone was mentioning.
So a comment.
I can't remember.
I'm kind of blurring the lines there.
That was for Storm of Chaos.
Yeah, so they started obviously doing that.
They obviously used to do the campaigns that actually used to tilt the plot a little bit.
Yeah.
And then they said that then they asked the wrong side started winning and they were like,

(19:14):
oh, we don't.
Yeah, it was because Empire won the Storm of Chaos.
Right.
They wanted Archean to win and put threat on the board.
But yeah, no, it didn't happen.
Empire just fucking absolutely wrecks chaos in that campaign.
But yeah, it is quite funny.
I mean, I still they did do it at the beginning of 10th edition, if you remember.
But I don't think it was really that relevant to the story.

(19:35):
But they did have a Tyranids versus Space Marines little thing that they did.
I do remember.
Do you remember that?
I do remember that.
I think it was more to do with who was winning.
But I think when you look at the balance of the box that we had originally,
it was quite one way.
And like, I think, was it the Marines that were really good against the Tyranids?
The Marines were busted.
Marines had all speciality units and the Tyranids just had like.

(19:57):
So they had like flamers against all of their shitty stuff.
And then they had like the ballista to just blow up the old big carnage.
Yeah, so so so badly.
And again, I think it's because GDW was scraping the barrel in terms of what
Marines don't have as best fits, right?
So it's like giving them all this elite stuff.
So the stern guard, like terminators and stuff like fucking hell.

(20:18):
Like, all right, like balance.
And then, of course, the James Workshop apology, Votan.
Yeah, that was an interesting one.
A video when he was like, we're sorry, we're so sorry.
Because Votan came out completely and utterly busted.
Yeah, that night.
So was that?
Yes, it was.
The tail end of ninth, right?

(20:39):
They came out and they were just they had such powerful shooting and such incredible
rules, they were just flattening everyone.
And then they were like, OK, we've got to turn this back.
And it was a weird one because they obviously just dumped massive points
heights on Votan and did some changes here and there.
So the army went from almost this like quite sort of spammy army.
So like a really elite army army.

(20:59):
And then it went back a bit towards the middle again.
Because I know my mate Paul, he was playing Votan at the time.
He didn't really want to play them at the start because they were too busted.
And then he was like, well, now I've got all these fucking models and I can't use half of them
because it's so elite.
And now he's like, gone back the other way again.
I feel really sorry for Votan players because actually, to be fair, the miniatures are
stunning, right?
Oh, they're cool.

(21:20):
Especially the old long, long coated motherfuckers.
Oh, they're so cool.
And the bikes are cool.
The bikes are fucking fantastic.
But like, I think that's an army that's trying to find its like mechanic identity.
The Grudge token thing is very cool.
I mean, they need to balance that.
But like, they seem very shooty with some occasional combat.

(21:43):
And like, I don't know, they're just a bit of a weird, weird army to kind of figure out.
They play an honest game of Warhammer.
And I think that they, in teams as well, they seem to be played quite a lot in a team's
environment because they are quite a good one to sort of get drawish matches.
Like, they can get quite a lot of like, 10 10s because you never really win hard or lose
hard unless you're a pro-narrative makes a cock up or you just roll.

(22:04):
Solid, solidly go through it, right?
Exactly.
No one's really going to have like a 20-year-old to Votan most of the time.
I guess that the only weakness that the army has is the lack of diversity internally from
their data sheets, right?
Where like, their units do one thing very well, right?
Whether it's very good at shooting or very good at combat, but then not the other end

(22:25):
of that.
Where a space marine can kind of do everything.
I'm interested to see their codex when they get one because they had their Grotmas Detachment,
which was just a bit shit, unfortunately.
It was one of the ones that were as a real mess.
A bit like, you know, there was a couple of them, wasn't there?
They were just a bit like, you know.
Not like my favourite Bile one.
Yeah, that was so, so good.

(22:46):
But yeah, so I'm hoping to see some interesting things for them because I think that would
be cool.
But yeah, that was a bit of a hoo-ha.
At least they addressed it though, right?
You know?
We're sorry, we're sorry.
Yeah, it was a real upset.
A lot of people, that.
Yeah, well, people were really hyped about squads coming back and then for them to have

(23:06):
that feel bad was...
Wasn't this the drama where there was a tournament in Germany that banned Votan or something?
Didn't they?
And that was sort of what tipped the final dominant.
Yeah, well, actually a lot of tournaments then started banning Votan.
So it was like all factions but Votan, which has never really happened in like 40K's history.
And that happens with busted-ass factions like Jokarion 9th.

(23:28):
Tau, Tau and 9th.
It was ridiculous.
Tau and 9th, Jokarion 9th.
AdMec when they first came out.
Yeah, oh God, they were just...
Yeah, so balancing stuff in general, but that was egregious.
They got so much better at that.
We touched on this before.
Oh yeah.
So it's like, like their balancing team now is doing such a great job.
Yeah.
Although Adari at the beginning of the edition made me want to cough up blood.

(23:50):
But that was the beginning of the edition.
They've done, I think they didn't get Josh on until a little bit into the edition really.
Did they, Josh Roberts?
Yeah, I hope they preserve what they've got now and make that going forward.
The fact that he's such a good player as well is one of the best players in the world.
There you go.
Speaking of moving forward ahead, wet blend time.

(24:11):
Slip it in there.
Ooh, slip it in. Basically what we're going to think about the old 10th edition predictions,
the final 10th edition predictions.
It's weird because in my gut, I was like 10th is going to go on for like another year or so,
at least. But then I was, then there's a lot of talk from people that it's like,

(24:33):
oh, we're going to be moving into 11th edition near the end of this year or like
something like that, which is crazy fast.
I think we're going to have a 10.5.
Yeah, I mean, I feel like we almost did already a little bit.
But there's a definite chance that we might, but if we do get 11th edition at the end of the year,
it's going to have to be the kind of thing where it's like people's existing codex is just rolled

(24:56):
through. We're not going to get re-induced.
Yes, no, no, thank you.
I don't think that that will be the case.
Because that happened obviously going into 10th edition, but I think it warranted it.
But I think they will move forwards a bit more streamlined. I don't think we'll see such huge
sweeping changes to things like data cards and all that sort of stuff.
Well, yeah, one of my favourite editions was third. And what happened with third was third

(25:19):
went on a long time. I think third edition went on for about seven years, right?
But all throughout third, you had multiple different codices released from third.
Which is fine.
KL's especially has had two or whatever. And essentially the rule was that when your rules
get updated, then you just get updated. And that's what you're going to do with it.
Obviously, you've got to make sure that everyone gets their time in the sun in terms of rotation

(25:41):
and stuff. But what I hope will happen is the 10.5 won't even feel like a step up. It would just be
like, OK, we've just like readjusted some elements or the keywords stay the same or the rough
mechanics, K, that stay the same. We've just altered a few things that would have been a chapter
of proof. The reason why I'm saying that there might be like a launch box for 10.5, so to speak,

(26:05):
is that we're potentially getting another codex space.
Yeah, I know.
I'll say this. But as far as space, you haven't heard of this.
Have you?
Yeah, no, I have. But it's like it's a weird one, isn't it? Because they did this with
when did they do this? Marines, they usually at the beginning of an edition, right?
Yeah.

(26:26):
Weirdly, Necrons seem to ride a lot with them a lot of the time as well.
Didn't eighth slash ninth edition have a second codex?
Something like that.
OK.
Yeah, I feel like I feel like they did. I don't know. I'm getting too old for this shit.
I'm about to turn 36 this weekend.
So yeah, I know. Bless you. Oh, yes. It's your birthday.
Yeah. Coming out to see me on my birthday meal.

(26:46):
That's great. Great.
You have to post a picture of my card because it's the best.
I will do. I'll go in the discord.
But like, yeah, I don't know what's going to happen with that because I think there's
going to be rules for like salamanders, ultramarines, all of your like.
That's great.
Other things.
Sally's need more love, right? There's some diehard Sally players.

(27:08):
Exactly. Exactly. But then, of course, the argument is then
what will happen with the old codex attachments?
You know, I think they then be restricted to like the the proper chapters having their own.
I think you'll probably end up having some. It depends on how they do it.
That either it'll be in an addition to or it'll just be a whole new book with all of the

(27:31):
either reshuffled around of new ones added, probably most likely.
I imagine that's what they'll do going forward.
Because like if we were to get a new Necron's book, right?
Let's say in six months time they get a new Necron's book.
Is it going to be like refined versions of the current detachment?
Or is it more likely to be acts a few, change a few, add a couple?

(27:53):
Because that's what they're probably going to do,
because they need to add something fresh.
I don't think it will get bored if it just redid them and they were like, oh, here you go.
I think Space Marines has to happen because I think there is a core balance
and issue with Space Marines in regards to how the attachments work for Space Marines.
Sure.
And also they have such a massive data sheet index and there's so much stuff going on there that,

(28:17):
you know, they may need to refine it or whatever.
Yeah.
Maybe give each of the sub chapters that own very specific detachment rule.
So Salamanders gets one, Ultraman is getting one, Imperial Fist get one, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And they have like three generic ones that any of them can use them.
But it's weird that because in 10th edition they've moved away from named chapters and stuff.

(28:40):
Like they've said that Anvil Siege Force, which is basically Imperial Fist,
because it's got a picture of them and it's like, this is Imperial Fist,
but it's definitely not Imperial Fist.
Like they've moved away from that in 10th.
So it seems strange to then be like, oh, we're going to do that now.
A little bit.
Yeah.
But then you've got a severe game balance issue.
Sure.
Where like people's chapters aren't actually played by their chapters, right?

(29:05):
They just dip in and out of like, and therefore like you don't really,
then Space Marines, the only distinguishing factor between all the sub factions are epic heroes.
Sure.
Yeah.
And that's lame as fuck.
That's not cool.
That's your whole identity as a faction is completely lost.
And theoretically you can have like a painted up Space Wolves Army and play it like fucking

(29:27):
Iron Hands or something.
What we need to do is like, we should release like a completely modified version of every
data sheet that's just got like wolves in it.
So we'll do like sort of wolf terminators, like wolf scouts.
We could do, what we could do, like wolf veterans.

(29:48):
Some sort of wolf bikers with wolves instead of bikes.
We could do...
Cool.
That's literally what they fucking did.
That's literally what they did.
Terrible.
Yeah, so funny.
I don't think we'll see that again.
I do think we're actually more likely to get like a character and maybe like a specific

(30:09):
unit for a sub faction.
So maybe we would get like, you know, you've got Tor Garadon or whatever his name is,
Tor Garadon for the Imperial Fists.
And then you'll probably have Lysander as well.
He'll probably get a new model.
And then yeah, you'll have like maybe some special sprue or something for the terminators
to just sex them up.

(30:30):
I don't know.
Again though, there has to be something mechanically to match that though, because again, like
the differentiation between Imperial Fists and Salamanders now will just essentially
be characters.
Yeah, but they do do something.
Lysander now will give your, what does he give your terminators an extra OC or something?
Yeah, but like, yeah, but then it all comes down to what Epic Heroes are best.

(30:54):
Yeah, no, it does.
And that's what everyone will run because they'll be Imperial Fists is the best or it'll
be Sally's is the best.
Rather than lock one detachment behind a faction.
I don't like that though, because then what if I collect Iron Hands as an army in terms
of color scheme and then like they bring out an Imperial Fists thing and then they're
like, oh, they're not yellow.
We're going back to those days.

(31:15):
Like I want to be able to play my, I don't want to have to buy a whole second fucking
Space Marine Army just to play Imperial Fists.
I think that those days are dead now with how much this game costs.
Like I don't think they're going to faction lock you in that way.
I think, you know, Imperial Fist players, if they want to play Salamanders heroes, they'll
just paint them in yellow and play them in the same respect.

(31:38):
No, that's fine.
I don't mean it from a hobby perspective, but I purely mean it from a mechanic perspective.
Yeah, so soupy.
At least if you lock a detachment behind a faction, then that their epic heroes associated
with that detachment detachment are also locked behind that.
Yeah.
So you don't get situations where you've got like Lionel Johnson in a fucking Iron Hands

(31:58):
army.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, I get that.
If you, I mean, they've been pretty good at locking that out in the codexes and stuff
already, haven't they?
No, because they, well, they said if you take Dark Angels units, you can't
take units from another faction.
So you can't take Lysander and the Lion.
You can still take the fucking detachment.
No, exactly.
But if you lock the characters and the detachment behind the faction, then you can't soup it.

(32:24):
Yeah, that makes more sense.
Right.
If you want to paint your fucking Iron Hands green and like have them like a subject, that's
fine.
I think that's a healthy middle ground.
Fine.
But just lock the fucking detachments with the epic heroes.
There's been some weird shit with this recently where...
Exactly.
Was it Innis Wilson went to the LVO and he bought Blood Angels, not Blood Angels.

(32:45):
Yes, absolutely.
It was basically, he didn't take any actual Blood Angels units or something, but ran the
detachment all the other way around.
Yeah, I can't remember what it was, but he basically, he did something like that.
And it's, you can do that.
It's completely in the rules at the minute, but it should probably die.
Yeah, absolutely.
But we'll see.

(33:06):
I think Space Queen is quite a big thing to balance.
Of course, other things on the horizon, Grey Knights.
I think Grey Knights are going to have an epic range refresh.
It's going to be interesting because do you think they're going to primaris them up or
do you think they're going to like...
I think in the lore, primaris won't exist for the...
Do you think they'll just scale them up?

(33:26):
They'll just scale them up.
Make them look bigger.
Because at the end of the day, if the rumours are that it's the Emperor's gene seed anyway,
it's the fucking Emperor.
Was old Kestrel and Crow actually made into primaris?
He wasn't, was he?
He's just scaled, right?
He's just scaled up.
Just do that.
His model's sexy.
They all look like that.
The best model.
Yeah, this is it.

(33:47):
And the Terminators as well.
Because don't get me wrong, I do like them.
I love their helmets.
They are probably the best Knights factions out of all of the Space Marine factions.
But you hold your fucking tongue.
You hold your fucking tongue.
That was such easy bait.
I was literally like...
You hold your fucking tongue, mate.
Nah, you can suck...

(34:08):
I saw your faces drop.
They are very knightly though.
You've got to...
They're pretty cool.
Yeah, but they're not the OGs, are they?
They're not the first legion.
I love great Knights, so fuck off.
But we do need them scaled up.
We do need them...
They do need them scaled up.
Because otherwise at the moment, when you put Castle Land Crow in with a unit of Stripe Marines
or Purifiers or whatever, it looks like Puppa's Day Out.

(34:31):
But it's like big, big Castle Land with tiny Stripe Marines.
The Nemesis Dread Knights, right?
I love them.
Don't get me wrong.
Oh, no, shut up.
They've always got a special place in my heart.
But it doesn't make much sense to have the dude on the front.
Kind of like, you know, what are those sisters things called?
Where the dude's just strapped to the front.

(34:51):
I can't remember.
You know the ones I mean.
Penitent Engines.
It's a bit like that kind of thing where he's like, just shoot me.
Like, he is the obvious weak point in that point.
He should have a bit of fucking armour from the thing.
He's a Space Marine.
Not only is he a Space Marine, but he's a Grey Knight.
A bit more armour doesn't hurt.
Okay, no, no, no, no.
If you're going up against a Greater Demon, Russ, what would you rather do?
No, no, no.
A bit more armour?

(35:12):
You're asking...
No, no, no, no, no.
See, you are opening a very controversial topic that we're going to have to talk about in the future.
But I'm going to have to just nip that shit in the bud right now.
You are sounding like those fucks, those helmet fucks that are like,
oh Space Marines always wear helmets because they need to wear helmets.
And it's like, shut up.

(35:32):
Let them have bare heads.
When people are like, it doesn't make sense.
There was a guy from the Bloodbathers chapter.
He was walking up a hill.
Let's put a banner on it, right?
Right.
Got up to the top and he caught a little bit of fire under the old neck from an Orc shooter.
Right?
Yeah.
Killed him.
If he'd have worn his fucking helmet, Russ, and that's from the Dawn of War 1 cinematic, by the way.

(35:54):
It's such bollocks.
It's such bollocks because the Space Marines fucking head is as hard as a fucking Ceramite helmet.
Yeah, but you shot him under the ear.
That's bollocks.
It's absolute bollocks.
Why risk getting injured?
It's so annoying.
You're talking bollocks.
It annoys me.
Look, put your fucking helmet on.
They exist for a fucking reason, Russ.
No, fuck off.
No, fuck off.
Okay, comment down below.
Helmet or no helmet?

(36:15):
No, I don't want to start this bullshit commentary.
Helmet or no helmet?
No.
I'm going to make that the pin comment on this video.
No helmet.
I'll tell you why very quickly.
Okay, we're going to have to...
No.
I'll tell you what.
We'll save it for the future.
Yeah, save it for the future.
No, I want to have it out now.
No, fuck off.
You're going to come at me with all this Iron Halo bullshit.
No.
Not all of them are wearing an Iron.
I was going to say it.

(36:36):
No, not all of them are wearing an Iron Halo.
We're going to talk about this in the future, but this is not over.
This is not fucking over.
This is not over.
It just annoys me because the same fucks that talk about this are the same
douchebags that paint their army red, white and blue and are in the military.
That's not true.
And they're like, in the military, you're right, right?
What do you do?

(36:56):
Because it fucking protects your head.
Okay.
Russ, okay, right.
But we don't believe that as God's Emperor.
Just listen, right?
Okay, so if...
Okay, hear me out, right?
Let's say you're stood at the back.
It's a little space ring.
You peek your head out, right?
You catch a little bit of gorse fire to the noggin, okay?

(37:16):
That shit is starting to disintegrate that thick old skull of yours.
And then you're dead two seconds later.
No, you're not.
Hear me out.
You know why you're not?
What happens is you stick your head out, your helmet catches the gorse blast
and you go, oh shit, that gorse has eaten that helmet.
I will take that bad boy off.
Do you know why you're wrong?
Because the faith in the Emperor will stop your bloodshed from being burnt off.
That's from the cinematic, the 10th edition cinematic with the sisters.

(37:39):
It is!
When she's like, oh, Emperor.
And this is my point.
And this is my fucking point that we're not living in our reality.
We're living in 40k reality with space magic and fucking faith in the Emperor.
Okay, all right.
Russ, in that fucking logic, why are the custodians not still just rocking around
in their Y-Fronts then, you dickhead?
Why are they wearing any armor at all if their bones are so strong?

(38:01):
Because they're too sexy that it would make all humans drool.
Talk a load of shit.
End it.
Argument over.
Hellbent.
We'll talk about this in the future.
We'll do a trial of space marine spray.
It makes no fucking sense.
You don't make any sense.
So, yeah, that was a tangent.

(38:22):
I enjoyed that.
That was a tangent.
That was a ripe tangent.
That was a fucking good tangent.
Ready to be had.
So, as someone who is a little bit too addicted to the Citadel paints yourself, Ed,
we need to talk about how we can lead you astray down other manufacturers' thing, right?
Okay. How do you feel about non-Citadel paint systems?

(38:43):
And how do we recommend people indulge in other companies?
I think your first non-Citadel paint ever you should buy,
if you're thinking of buying one, is bold titanium white.
I've heard about this.
It's probably the best white.
I think you think he was talking about it in our video with him.

(39:03):
I need to check who actually makes it.
Can you Google it for me, Russ, while I talk a load of shit?
Yeah, of course.
I think it's Vallejo or something, but I'm not 100%.
I think it is.
So, that paint is really good.
It thins down really well.
I've found that a lot of whites that I've bought in dropper bottles
and even the Citadel ones and stuff, they get very chalky
and they bung up their dropper bottles a lot and you get bits in them

(39:24):
where they've just dried either round the nib or underneath.
The bold titanium white has quite a cool cap on it where basically sort of,
when you turn it, it pushes the paint up and a little bit comes out
and it stops it.
If you just wipe that off, it stops it drying in the lid.
It's pro acryl.
Pro acryl.
There you go.
So, pro acryl, bold titanium white.

(39:45):
If you've ever had problems with white as a painter,
either through an airbrush or by brush, sorry,
that shit will change your life forever.
Thin it down.
So, what I do personally is I use a couple of drops of airbrush thinner.
I don't use water with it.
I just use a tiny little bit of airbrush thinner
in my little dropper pot thing when I'm painting with it.

(40:07):
Sort of one-to-one maybe.
You just get the usual consistency.
But that shit will not dry out very quick if you put airbrush thinner with it.
And it's just so good.
Covers really well.
Yeah.
It's cool.
Like no other paint.
So, yeah, I mean, I think that was one of my first ones that I tried.
And as I've said to Peachy, I have been a citadel boy for a long time

(40:28):
with my ogre balls brown and all that sort of shit.
It's taken me a long time to sort of start stepping out into the light.
I really want to try the new army paint that Peachy was on about, actually.
Fanatic.
Yeah.
I must confess, I am going that way.
Yeah.
What do you think?
If you had to recommend a paint from another range

(40:51):
that will change people's lives, what would you say?
I would say a range more so than a specific paint, right?
Yeah, the army paint of Fanatic range is absolutely ridiculous.
Sure.
Absolutely ridiculous.
They're really good for new painters because they cover really, really well.
Yeah.
Do they need thinning?
Yeah, a little bit.
But they're dropper bottles, so it's easiest to do.

(41:13):
Yeah.
But the reason why I love them is just because, and we talked,
Spork talked about this on the Peachy pod, was how their triadic system works.
Yeah.
Where it's almost like a sextuplet.
So there's like six, six, six paints.
Six paints of a triadic sort of six paints thing, right?
So you can either choose to get all six paints of a specific color

(41:35):
and then go for a crazy highlight spectrum,
or just get a couple or three or whatever within that,
and then highlight from there, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
So in terms of like the logic, the logic is strong,
and the John Blanche I'm so looking forward to,
and I'm going to jizz it when I get the John Blanche Mascara set,

(41:55):
because there are some such cool, fundamentally important colors in it.
Yeah.
There's like a wicked new gold, which is like Retributor Armor,
but darker, called Emperor Gold.
There's also a Ironclad Grey, which is like the Eschen Grey, Banshee Brown,

(42:16):
and their washes seem really good as well, like really, really nice.
If you want to be a bit spenny, then obviously take a look at the two things,
the two thin coats range, because again, they do a very similar thing,
where they've got very triadic sort of paint ranges,
where the one thing that I don't like about the GW system

(42:38):
is that everything's kind of up in the air,
and you kind of need to research a very specific triad that you're going to use,
and it might not be the most harmonious triad in the world,
where they might be quite extreme,
but the two thin coats, again, they're all designed to be triadic assigned paint.
The only thing that I'm not a massive fan about the two thin coats range
is the washes aren't great, although they're just not to my taste,

(43:01):
and it's not necessarily that they're not great,
I just don't like them as much as like their competitors,
but some of their colors are bold and really, really nice,
especially their greens and their reds I really like in the two thin coats range,
which are quite hard paints to kind of get right.
That's the one thing that apparently the Fanatic paints aren't particularly good at,
is the greens and the reds, which is interesting.

(43:21):
So you might need to mix and match your thing, but again, like try them.
Don't be afraid to try them.
What you may find with paint systems that aren't Citadel is that they're a bit cheaper.
Yeah, for sure.
Like you can get a six triadic range or sextuplet range for the Army paint,
and for like 20 quid for the six paints at least.
So touching on that as there's actually a really good point is the cost of paints.

(43:46):
Two things I want to mention that are sort of side on the side of this,
is one of them is obviously rattle cams.
And we've talked about this.
There's only one choice now.
Yeah.
So I used to do the Games Workshop Chaos Black and all that sort of stuff.
And I've recently moved away to, what's it called again?
Color Forge.
Color Forge.
You're brave.

(44:07):
You really are a proper Necron.
You're going to have to re-download your memory.
It's because I've been so busy and I'm just all over the place at the minute.
So yeah, Color Forge is great.
That stuff is cheaper.
Oh no, it's the same sort of price, but you get more bank you fuck.
I think it is a bit cheaper.
It's about 12 quid or something like that for a bottle, for a can, sorry.
And you get a decent amount.
You get like another sort of quarter or third again of what you get in a Games Workshop can.

(44:30):
So that stuff is color matched as well.
So if you're worried about spraying your army and you've been using,
I don't know, Wraith Bone, I think they've got like White Bone or something.
It's the same color basically.
They even have a morgasse bone paint that I did and found out after I had done all my fucking terminators.
Fuck!
Yeah.
So that's a really good one.
And then the other one I would say is one that will save you shit loads of money is

(44:52):
don't buy the earth texture paints from Games Workshop.
Buy them from elsewhere because you can get.
So there is a Vallejo do this earth texture acrylic.
I've been using this.
They do all different colors.
I've been using the brown one and like the sandy one and that shit.
Well, it's like a proper big old tub of it and it'll just last forever.

(45:16):
You could do like a whole army with that one tub.
And I think they're like maybe sort of like tenor or something around that kind of range.
Whereas if you buy one from Games Workshop,
you basically just get like a slightly bigger pot of like a normal paint range.
And it's like four quid or five quid or something.
You don't get anything.
And this stuff is honestly just better to work with and you can layer it up better.

(45:39):
So I think that is another one that I would really recommend as a basic thing.
Yeah.
You can stick stuff into it.
You don't need to superglue.
Especially as I paint mine afterwards anyway.
So yeah, you know, it's all good.
The Vallejo are interesting, though, because the actual paints I feel like have gone downhill
a little bit in as much as like they used to be like the number one competitor of an army

(46:06):
paint that were kind of the cheap nasty.
We're not nasty, but not wank.
It was a lot of the time.
No, it was wank.
They were not wank, not wank paints.
But now they're not wank now.
They were wank then.
And I feel like also Vallejo has got a bit into trouble recently with their paint team.
Yeah, they've been not paying their staff enough.
They haven't been paying people, right?
And people have been going on strikes and stuff and it's all a bit...

(46:29):
Right.
And now the endorsement of John Blanche for the army painter is massive.
So like now the army painter feels like they're having a renaissance.
The army painter seems to be coming into the light.
Yeah, really, very much so.
Very, very much so.
So and I actually must confess I've never really enjoyed working with Vallejo paints.
They leave a bit of a glossy finish.
They don't have great coverage and they're just a bit gloopy.

(46:50):
What's the oldest paint you've got?
Have you got...
Dark Angel's Green from the 90s.
I've got my original Chaos black little, you know, the old pots that they used to do.
Yeah, well that's what I've got, but Dark Angel's Green.
I've got one somewhere.
Knocking about.
Do you know what happened the other day?
A little aside.
So I went into a games workshop with the boy and the guy gave us a little Flamer Marine.

(47:15):
I can't remember what they're called.
Infernus.
Infernus.
I should have said Flamerus Marines because they just put an us on the end of every fucking name.
Flamerus.
They gave me a little Infernus Marine for him.
So we built it together, which was really good fun.
And then I sprayed it up for him and sat down and I said, what would you like to paint it?
Can you guess what color you reached for?

(47:36):
Pink.
No.
No fucking Caliban Green.
Little man.
He's got taste.
I know.
He's got taste.
Fuck.
I don't want to tell Russ this.
He's going to give me no under shit.
Yes.
It's because your boy has taste unlike you.
It's okay.
He's painted over it with a copper color now.

(48:00):
Leo, Leo painted his Infernus because he did the same thing.
We did the same thing.
Mint Green.
Oh nice.
Minty green.
Like Gauss Blast Green colored.
Well, he's got more Minotaur's color scheme now, which I like.
So I'm into that.
Oh nice.
The sons of Medusa for Leo.
But there we go.
Very cool.
That makes me proud of you, lad.
I was like, damn it.

(48:22):
I should have painted it yellow.
I gave him more choice of everything.
He was like, fuck.
It's because green is the best color, lad.
That's it.
It's facts.
So there we go.
So let us know how you strayed away from Citadel.
And it's the right thing to do.
Yeah. And if you've got any recommendations of ranges that people try,
or at first paints that people should try, if they are thinking of branching out, let us know.

(48:43):
I'm seriously thinking about replacing when I run out of color for my Citadel.
I was just replacing with Fanatics.
Yeah, I think I probably will.
I probably will eventually.
It's mad.
Yeah.
It's mad.
But there we go.
See?
There we go.
Right.
Lore topic to finish on.
Our favorite ever black library novels and why.
So this will be quite fun.

(49:04):
I've got a thought.
You go first this time.
Yes. Well, I think I've got one more than you anyway.
So I've got a few I haven't mentioned in my list.
So I'll go.
Okay.
So I'm going to mention one of my most recent ones on my list,
which completely changed my opinion on this character because beforehand I was a Singersman fanboy
and I was really annoyed that this character killed this character.

(49:27):
And it's actually an Abaddon slash Abaddon book called or bad and called The Talon of Horus
by Aaron Dempsky Bowden.
I genuinely think this is one of the best black library books ever created.
And it's part of a two book series called The Talon of Horus and also Black Legion.

(49:51):
This is the second.
Yeah.
Do you know anything about it?
Yeah.
So only from what you've told me.
I'm not actually reading myself, but I've heard it's great.
So I would definitely like to give it a go.
So don't tell me regale me.
Right.
I had no idea about this history in the whole of 40k,
but it was based on an event that happened called the Legion Wars.

(50:12):
Now, Legion Wars is what happened when basically all of the chaos factions that fought in the
Horus heresy and lost got their asses kicked during the scouring back into the warp.
Now throughout the history between then and like 8,000 years later,
when chaos didn't really exist in the universe,
the Imperial history around that time is quite not boring, but quite limited in scope.

(50:36):
Right.
It's all about the Ecclesiastes getting too big for its belly and being a dickhead
and eventually the war of the beast and stuff like that.
But chaos wasn't really a massive like enemy during that time.
It only really appeared towards the tail end.
So the year 40,000, you know, the 40,000 and stuff like that and became an enemy again.
But what was going on was the Legion Wars and the Legion Wars was essentially how

(51:01):
the traitor legions survived in the Eye of Terror on a day-to-day basis.
Right.
And they're struggling to survive where in the warp, they all kind of like gather
and form their own sort of like bases of operations and how they function as like a sort of
an actual faction, a day-to-day faction.

(51:21):
Because obviously in the warp time moves really weird as well, where
the time dilation, it could be longer, it could be shorter than the amount of time
that you've got on the outside, right? It could be months or, you know,
thousands and thousands of years, right?
And how the hierarchy of the evil legions kind of work.
And it's fascinating because like, you know, they obviously deal with slaves,

(51:44):
they deal with weapons, like how all of the factions survive by like lending themselves
out to each other or facilitating different jobs.
So like the Iron Warriors are like the Forgemasters and they make weapons for everybody else.
So they're quite in with everybody and quite safe, if that makes sense.
But how like the Black Legion, for example, what would become the Black Legion,

(52:05):
they're the sons of Horus, are being hunted to extinction.
Because all of the traitors blame them for Horus' loss and them getting
kicked into the Iotera in the first place, right?
And the main antagonists are the Emperor's children.
That's an interesting one.
That's quite cool.
And they're the bastards.
And they're the bastards that everyone hates in the setting, right?

(52:27):
Yep.
And they nick Horus' body and try and clone him.
And it's amazing.
Is that Fabius that tries to clone him?
It is, yeah.
But it's brilliant.
And it takes the unification of all the other legions to stop him.
Is this just one novel or is this several?
Two novels.
Two novels.
As I said, it's Tana Horus and it's the Black Legion and it's how Abaddon has his rise to power.

(52:50):
And the narrative is based around a thousand suns, Marine.
And it made me really like the thousand suns.
And he's the Black Legion thousand suns guy who has all of the memories of Frostboro and stuff.
And he has a space wolf axe that he uses as a weapon because he stole it from a space wolf.
And he has a demon wolf that hangs out with him and stuff, which is kind of ironic.

(53:12):
But it's great.
Go and read it.
It's wicked.
And it made me understand Abaddon a bit more and also how unbelievably horrible living in the walk must have been.
Yeah.
And the veterans.
It's an interesting one, the whole being in the walk, right?
Because you just go, oh yeah, no, fine.
But then to actually think about that.
The time violation and stuff.

(53:33):
Some of these legions in a weird kind of way must have been around a lot longer than 10,000 years.
You know?
So it feels like they've been around for even longer, right?
And the fact that time happens in the walk, that's why they are veterans of the old war.
Because the old war to them has been feeling like it's been going on for millennia.

(53:55):
Exactly.
And they must have even more experience fighting and training and stuff because they've been there.
And fighting each other.
And that's why they're all rough and all fucked up and all storted and stuff, right?
Makes sense.
But you just never think about it.
That's a hostile work environment, if I may add to that.
Right.
But you just never think about the rough day to day of it, right?
You just kind of presume that it's all okay and it's cool.

(54:18):
But I love it.
I absolutely love it.
And it tickles my pickle from the old year of chaos.
Tickles my pickle.
The old year of chaos.
It made me really fall to chaos.
I think that book is responsible for my now year of chaos that I'm having.
I'll read it at some point.
That sounds like a good recommendation.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
What was your first choice?
First one that I've got is Titanicus.

(54:42):
This was back when I was painting my knights.
I needed a little bit of...
I don't know if you guys do this, but I do this.
When I'm painting an army, I start to have a few books on the go.
Yes.
For that army.
For that army, yes.
Absolutely.
Titanicus is a really cool novel that's following a load of literal titans, obviously.
That are just having big wars and battles.

(55:04):
And it just gets right into the minds of the crew and the pilots and all these...
The people involved.
And you've got the skitarii there, which are terrifying in this.
And you've also got the dark ad-mech as well that show up at various points

(55:24):
with all of their scrap code and all this sort of stuff.
And it's just...
Oh, scrap code's evil.
Yeah, it's really cool.
It's just got some really interesting little snippets of lore.
And there are just some fucking epic fight scenes where you've just got these titans
just barging through buildings and just ripping each other to shreds.
It's just really cool.
So I can't recommend that one enough.
If you're into titans, if you love knights at all, you'll love that book.

(55:46):
I'd say that's a bad book.
Yeah, I haven't read that book, but I imagine the scale of that is mind-bending.
It's awesome.
And the toll it takes on the princeps and the pilots and all these...
They're on the verge.
And they're trying...
Because obviously the machine spirits are so powerful in these things.
They just absorb them.

(56:06):
Yeah, they almost become one sometimes.
Or they're having to fight against its natural urge for violence.
They're trying to keep their cool.
It's really fun.
It's really interesting as a book.
And trying to stave off the call of chaos and all this.
It's interesting.
Oh, very good.
Keeping off, staving off the call of chaos.

(56:28):
This is my favorite Black Library book of all time.
I love this book.
It's Luther by Gav Thorpe.
So Luther was part of a series of Horace Heresy era books
that are focused around secondary characters that live within the Horace Heresy books.
And they're all faction specific.
There's an Eidolon one.
There's a Sigismund one.
There's a Val'dor one.

(56:48):
But my absolute favorite is Luther.
It has a wicked cover.
Luther looks really cool on the front cover.
And I have the limited edition of it.
And it is my favorite book in my entire collection.
And I love it because it's all about Luther's climb to power
within the order of the Knights of Caliban.
Right. And how spooky and freaky and fucked up Caliban is.

(57:13):
And he talks about fighting mythical beasts like the Horn of Ruin.
And the Horn of Ruin is a massive fucking three double decker bus sized chaos fucking beastie
that is just wiping out settlements in Caliban.
It's so Dark Souls.
It's so Dark Souls.

(57:35):
It's unreal.
And how he's a young initiate.
And how towns are calling for aid.
God knows of course for aid but they're just getting wiped out.
They go to him and the Horn of Ruin's fucked up.
And how they kill the Horn of Ruin.
There's later a scene where he's hanging out with a daughter of one of the lords.
And they go on a pilgrimage to find this old sort of settlement.

(57:58):
And it's all haunted and there's ghosts.
Oh wow.
It's so fucking cool.
And of course he bumps into an old watch in the dark every now and again.
Right.
And just it's so cool.
It's not really that much about Space Marines.
It's about Luthor.
Oh no.
Okay.
And the other cool thing about it is that it has a time dilation effect because it's all about Luthor

(58:20):
in his prison cell in the rock.
And he gets every single chapter master over the centuries visit him and talk about why.
And then he reminisces about his time on Caliban as like going back in time.
Sure.
And it's so cool.
It's pretty cool.
Until we get to Azrael at the end.

(58:41):
And like he just literally goes through all of the all of these kind of...
He probably knows it all already right because he's got the helmet.
Yes but even so like yeah but like the motivations for why and getting into the psychology of Luthor.
Right.
It is fucking fantastic.
It's so edgy and edgelordy and everything that you want from a Dark Angels book.

(59:04):
Yeah.
Like all the Dark Angels are stereotypical knobheads.
It's all edgy as fuck.
Stubborn bastards.
Caliban is the greatest greatest world in the history of 40k.
Fight me.
I love Caliban.
Anytime that I get to spend on Caliban as this haunted horrible fucking planet that's woody
and all cursed and all awesome.

(59:26):
I do.
I love I love Luthor and if you haven't and if any of you that are slightly interested in the Dark
and Dark Angels or as you say Dark Souls S mythology go and listen to Luthor.
It's my absolute favorite.
I love it so much.
It's not very long.
It's it's only like it's the audiobooks only like eight hours or something.
Yeah.

(59:47):
But it's it's genius and Gav Thorpe like him or loathe him is just a fucking genius for
understanding the space of the Dark Angel.
So there you go.
Awesome.
So my next one is Brutal Cunning.
I don't know if you've read that.
I know about this.
So it's a really fun book like and the audible version of it's really cool as well.

(01:00:08):
So it's it's basically the story of an orc sort of rising his way up through the ranks.
He's like a knob or something and it's just chaotic.
It's so much fun.
There's like some really fun little sub stories and like story beats in there to do with like
you know, some other factions turning up.
I'm not going to spoil it, but like it's just it's just got some incredible moments in like

(01:00:31):
from all of the books I've read.
I'm not going to spoil them because again, they're just those sort of moments where you're
listening to it and you're like, what the fuck?
But just so cool.
And it's mostly to do with basically orcs versus like the Adeptus Mechanicus where they're
just attacking this planet and the AdMaker just losing their shit trying to figure out
how all technology works.
What the fuck is going on here?

(01:00:53):
Because there's some seriously mental shit going on and they're like they're just like,
it doesn't make sense.
You can't do this from a physical standpoint.
Like it's just so funny and all the orcs are just mental and they're just like their whole
sort of unshakable belief in things to make them happen.
It's just so great how it pans out and it's just fun.

(01:01:16):
If you want a fun 40k book, get that read.
I guess it's really cool to also come from the perspective of orcs as well, right?
It is.
You get like a look inside their society and the way that they tick and stuff and they're
endearing in a very orky way and it's nice that they have books, right?
Yeah, it's really different.

(01:01:37):
That's cool.
We go through a lot of books from a marine's perspective and they're all a bit more serious
and like, oh brother, there's a brother.
I wish we loved, you know, it's all cool.
But it's nice to, as you say, see a different sort of perspective and a different faction
come into the limelight a bit and see how they think and fight and interact with each
other and see how their society works.

(01:01:58):
So it's so cool.
You can't do that with our orcs, right?
It's got to be fun or nothing.
Yeah.
And don't get me wrong, it's not silly.
Like it's still grounded, but it's just fucking great.
So you go give that a go if you're interested in orcs at all or if you like ad-mech or,
you know, just give it a go.
It's a really fun book.
Orcs, you like a bit of orcs?
Yeah.
I'm actually quite intrigued by that.
That does actually really intrigue me.

(01:02:19):
Honestly, you've had such a great time.
All the things you've mentioned today, that's the thing that tempts me the most weirdly.
It is fun.
Because I kind of like the idea of it.
I think that's actually quite fun.
So because I'm old man Warhammer and I am old, one of my favorite series of Warhammer
books is the Slayer series.
Yeah, nice.

(01:02:39):
Have you read any Slayers?
No, I haven't.
I know you would love Slayers.
So obviously, if no one knows who the Slayers are, the Slayers are Gottrek and Fenix,
aka a troll Slayer, so that's a troll Slayer, that saves a Empire nobleman's son called

(01:02:59):
Fenix from getting run over by Karl Franz's chariot and in a drunken stupor vows to be
basically the bars of the troll Slayer and to go on near suicidal missions and basically
write songs and tales of the Slayers name.
It sounds very The Witcher with old Dandelion.

(01:03:20):
It is.
It's Total Witcher.
It's Total Witcher.
Right.
And inevitably, they go through these hellish adventures and the Slayer doesn't die.
He just survives.
He's a beast.
He's hard as fuck.
He's got to trick his heart as fuck.
And Fenix is obviously trying to maintain a normal life whilst living as a Slayer's mate.
And they all have books associated with the stages of a Slayer's journey.

(01:03:43):
So you've got like troll Slayer, Skaven Slayer, Dragon Slayer, Demon Slayer,
Vampire Slayer, fucking Elf Slayer, even stuff like Kinn Slayer or Orc Slayer.
Oh wow.
Loads of them.
There's 20 of them.
20 books?
Fucking hell, that's like a Horus Heresy level, so we're not quite.
Oh yeah.
And they still exist in the modern era as well, but without Fenix.

(01:04:06):
But like so cool, so funny.
Yeah.
And of course, the Slayer being so hilariously funny about how bad humans are at building
stuff for he's just like, it's shoddy, man.
It's fucking shoddy.
And like, Felix is like, oh God, like my favorite one and the one that you would love is Skaven

(01:04:27):
Slayer.
Yeah.
And I think which is which is based in Nuln.
It's kind of where the I talked about my idea for a decent Warhammer Quest box game.
It's basically that where they're like underground in Nuln, hunting Skaven.
And it's the first appearance of Gracia Thanquil and Bone Ripper.
Oh, OK.
Great.
And they have a really cool invention called the like Squeaker, Squeakerphone or something.

(01:04:52):
You're the Skaven of invented phones.
And they're like, yeah, yeah, but it's like powered by Warp Solar, like a fucking massive
wheel.
It's so bad because occasionally it blows up.
Of course it does.
It blows up.
They always blow shit up.
But they're not blowing it up.
It's not working right.
It's really funny.
So yes, Skaven Slayer I love is great.
It's all great.

(01:05:13):
It's all great.
And then there's Felix gets off with a wench and fucks her and there's always that as like
a thing.
And Godric's like toss a coin to your Slayer.
And Godric's always like keep it in your pants, manling.
Keep it in your pants.
Great.
That sounds good.
I have to give one of them a go.
Any more from you, lads?
Yeah, I can't mention my favorite Black Library novels without mentioning The Infinite and

(01:05:36):
The Divine because obviously it has to be said.
So that is Trazen, The Infinite versus Oricon, The Divine.
It's not versus.
They kind of basically have to work together even though they're like mortal enemies,
which is just so funny.
Like they are.
They couldn't be more different.
Trazen is just like grumpy Ultron and Oricon just like takes himself so fucking seriously.

(01:05:57):
And it's just like he's just on a mission and it's just great.
They basically they butt heads continuously.
They're trying to like underhand each other and fucking screw each other over continuously
whilst also having to work together on some great thing.
And because they're necrons, the fun thing about this book is it takes place over like
thousands of years because obviously they don't really see time like we do where it's

(01:06:22):
like our life is, you know, like 70, 80 years or something.
They see time as like an infinite thing almost.
So they are literally just sort of, you know, like Oricon will just be like sat there meditating
for like, I don't know, 800 years or something casual as you do.
And that's just like nothing for him.
And there's just some really, really fun moments and some really cool battles.

(01:06:45):
I'm pretty sure the Exodus turn up in it at one point.
Oh, wow.
They basically Exodus and it's just so cool.
They are amazingly well written characters.
They really flesh them out and they're just a lot of fun and you get to see a bit of solemnness
as well, which is where it's Trazen's massive like, you know, his museum basically where
he's got everyone stowed away in there.

(01:07:06):
And it's just, it's just really interesting.
I just love the idea of two old men bickering.
Oh, it's exactly that.
Yeah, that's the best.
Like fucking each other over continuously at every turn.
I know it's well thought of because one of my presents that I was going to go to was
I was going to get you, but unfortunately my bloody internet died was to get you the

(01:07:28):
limited edition.
Yeah.
And I was like, I was like, right, if I can get this for you, it'd be great.
And it literally had it sold out in like, oh yeah, it was like gone in a flash.
So I think despite the fact that it's like a Xenos book and Xenos books don't sell as
well and stuff like that, it's a very well thought of Xenos book where people are like,
it's one of the amazing books.
Amazing.
I think, I think if you're just a general 40 K fan, you should probably listen to it.

(01:07:51):
It's got so many like crossovers with different factions and stuff in it as well.
And the story is just really cool.
And there are some absolutely unforgettable epic moments in it that will leave you walking
away from it.
Like, shit, that was so cool.
And the most upsetting thing about this book is that Shrazin in the game is like

(01:08:11):
fucking one billionth of his power level, coolness, ability and all that sort of shit.
Always the case though.
It's just Rubik's Cube.
Yeah, it's the same with Primax.
He's got some interesting fucking rules at least, but like Shrazin's just, he needs a
re-sculpt and some new fucking rules for his game.
Well, yeah, there we go.
So I think that's your number one mark.
Sorry, what were you going to say?

(01:08:31):
No, no, same with Primax though.
Primax die easy.
I know, but like there's die easy and then there's just basically be crap.
And like his weapon, he can't shoot with it.
And he's got like four attacks, strength seven, zero AP, D3 damage, a sustained D3.
Such a random profile.
No, that's not good.
It's just crap.
Yeah.
So, but hopefully they'll give him some love at some point because I would absolutely drop

(01:08:57):
my yoggeth for a new Shrazin model.
Yoggeth, dropeth my yoggeth.
I've only got one final one that I'm going to just say before I leave.
And it has to be because I'm entering my year of chaos and it has to be again,
a book that really helped my fall to chaos.

(01:09:20):
And it was the first heretic by Aaron Dersley Bowden, all about the word bearers.
And again, if you want to understand why the word barriers are why they are,
the first heretic is great.
Yeah.
And it's obviously-
Is it in the omnibus?
Because there's a world eaters omnibus that you can buy.
You mean word bearers?
No, it's not.
No, it's not.

(01:09:41):
No, there's a word bearer.
No, it's not in it.
Oh, okay.
That's a shame.
That's the modern ones.
That's the dark apostle.
Yeah, they're cool.
They are brilliant.
No, it is a Horace Ossi book.
And it's all about the raising of Monarchia.
Yeah.
And how pissed off Lohgar was and how slimy Giliman was when

(01:10:03):
Monarchia got raised to the ground.
And also the pilgrimage that Lohgar goes on to find chaos.
Yeah.
And sending Agultal off into the warp and stuff.
And it's just really fascinating.
Magnus makes an appearance.
And Magnus and Lohgar go through philosophy with each other

(01:10:23):
about it and the Imperial truth and stuff.
It's just really interesting.
If you want to know the seed of where traitors came from
in the 40k universe, that's it.
And also it lets you understand where Lohgar's coming from.
Although he is a whiny dickhead, he has every reason to be a bit
of a whiny dickhead and that explains it really.

(01:10:46):
I mean, people are going to be screaming in the comments,
why have you not mentioned Eisenhorn and Gwonskos?
Yeah, we will.
We have mentioned those previously.
These are more our subjective favorites.
So we do know, and obviously the Horace Heresy series,
there's some incredible books out there,
but we just wanted to mention some other ones
that aren't so mainstream today.
And we may do Where to Start with the Black Library topic in the future.

(01:11:07):
We were talking about that with Quitser in our first guest special,
which was a good one.
So if you want to go back and watch that one,
he actually has like a whole spreadsheet
of how to read the Horace Heresy that he thinks is the best way around.
Which is cool.
For our next Christian appearance, I'm going to need the old Quitser Horn.
Yes, you will.

(01:11:29):
There we go.
Now, let us know your favorite books, please.
Because it'll be interesting to see.
And yeah, all good.
You've forgotten something this whole episode, right?
Oh, no.
Is this the worst example of this?
I think this is actually a win.
I think you have, I don't think you've ever not done it.

(01:11:49):
This is the best one.
I've been grinning the whole time about waiting for you to say it.
And I was like, is he going to say it now?
Is he going to say it?
Yeah.
Wow.
This is the worst one.
Well, you could have stepped in at any point, you do realize.
Okay, after this moment, Ed, you have to now step in
because this is the worst it's ever been to get all the way through an episode.

(01:12:12):
So like, comment, subscribe.
And thank you to our patrons.
Oh, God.
What an asshole.
I haven't actually talked to Russ about this, but I'm going to do it live.
So one of our members in Discord the other night that I was chatting to
had a great suggestion for some extra content for our patrons,
which we will discuss properly whether we can actually do it.

(01:12:36):
But it's a monthly live stream where we basically do an hour long
or half an hour long maybe hour sort of like a live version of this
where people can tune in, where the patrons can tune in
and chat directly to us.
If you guys are interested in that and you think it'd be good fun,
then let us know in the comment down below
because it's something we definitely could consider doing.

(01:12:57):
I'm totally down with that.
We can do that.
Likewise.
Absolutely do that.
Absolutely do that.
That sounds fun.
And keep an eye on the Battle Barn.
We are very close to launching.
As you can see, I'm now in here at the very least, which is good.
So once decoration is complete and the final bits and bobs are done,
we should be going live soon or get Russ over for a game.
So that'd be great fun.

(01:13:19):
I'm just so excited to play some fucking 40K on stream.
It's going to be absolutely carnage.
It's going to be crazy.
It's going to be crazy.
Especially us unbound.
There'll be links to that.
I don't know, Russ unbound.
Absolutely.
But please like, comment, subscribe.
Follow me at countruskillerminis on Instagram.

(01:13:40):
Follow Ed at eddiesportsgame.com.
I'll put links to these down below from now on as well.
Please do.
I'll update them to the Instagrams.
And you need to now step in and take responsibility, please.
I'm not going to do it.
I'm just going to keep playing this game.
I'm going to have to write it then at the beginning of every...
It's all right.
I've got a little button that will pop up at some point.
So don't worry.

(01:14:03):
There we go.
Love you. Long time, guys.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you very much.
Have a good week.
Thank you, Ed.
I'll see you around.
See you next week, guys.
Ciao.
I hate you so much.
Such a fucking villain.
Oh, fuck.
I did press record.

(01:14:25):
I did really.
I got you so good.