Episode 37: Should Cheaters Be Given A Second Chance In Warhammer 40k?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I find it really interesting, like the psychology behind cheating, because at the end of the

(00:04):
day, you're kind of only really cheating yourself, which is a bit strange.
But I do get why a lot of these sort of bad sportsmanship like things start to creep in.
And I know that it's because they're coming from a place of pressure, whether that be
internal or external, the pressure is for you to win.
And then you start taking a little bit of a liberty, you go, I'll just shove it a little

(00:26):
bit loosey there, you know, he might point away notice.
But then that's the start of it.
It's like a gateway drug.
And then suddenly, you know, a few tournaments later, you're stacking your fucking secondary
deck, you know, and stuff like that.
So you've got to really be careful.
It's just so sad.
It's a slippery slope, I think.
I just find that so tragically sad.
It is sad.

(00:47):
It's a hobby of all hobbies, right?
It's like, you know, toilet guys and stuff, you know, it's all that sort of thing.
That's funny though.
That is funny.
Welcome to the In the Tank podcast.
Get ready for an hour of hot 40k goodness coming in your ears.
So you're in the tank now, baby.

(01:10):
We're live.
We are indeed live.
Welcome everybody to In the Tank episode 38.
I've stopped saying the numbers because it's sometimes a little bit...
And you've been getting it wrong for like the last two months as well.
Yeah, I was looking at my...
I was like episode 35, episode 36.
Episode 38.
Episode 38.
That's wild.
I keep having to change it in my notes, my show notes every week.
I'm like, f***ing down it down one again.
I know.
You're selling a short, mate.

(01:30):
I know.
Exactly.
Exactly.
How you been doing, my man?
You okay?
Doing most excellent, thank you.
How about yourself?
I'm struggling.
Yeah, you are struggling.
I've had a stream of bad luck this year.
A stream of bad luck or a stream of...
A stream of coming out of my body in various forms.
So I got infected with quite a delicious stomach pain.
I'm like, I'm going to go to the hospital.
I'm going to go to the hospital.

(01:58):
What am I saying?
Ever since you started this fall to chaos, you've just been infected by death guards
plagues, like no.
Like your household has been hit pretty hard this winter.
You go see the blessings.
We've just had the chicken box here as well.

(02:19):
So it's been brilliant.
Thanks.
You go see, you go see.
I believe you entirely.
My influence is spreading.
There you go.
There are people like, on the discord, John was talking about the fact that like I'd always
chaos faction because of my Dark Ages loyalty.
At this point I'm like, oh, I can't even argue.
The oldest memes are the best, aren't they?
Apparently so.
Although space wolves aren't chaos.
They are definitely loyal.

(02:43):
See, you're smelling weakness like a car.
I'm circling you today.
I've already been told off pre-recording.
You're going to be snippy with me today.
You can fucking back it in.
Look at this behind the curtain in the tank.
I try to talk into my microphone a bit better today because apparently last week, I don't

(03:04):
know what happened.
So apologies for my audio last week, but I sounded like I was talking through someone's
underpants.
Yeah, the entire time.
So yeah, apologies for that one.
Hopefully it's not in the operation.
So cool.
It is.
So I'm going to do the whole GW lean and the stance goes, what are you working?
What have you been working on?
So I have been doing a little bit of hobbying on my Death Watch, just trying to get my kill

(03:25):
teams updated because as I said, the last time I really worked on these was a couple
of years back and the kill teams have changed a wee bit since then.
So I've just been getting like some of my Inceptors done and I've got to do the new
jump pack assault intercessor guys for that squad.
So there's a few little added guys that I need to sort of update the squad.
So I've just been working my way through that, cutting shoulder pads up and trying to fit

(03:46):
them onto Death Watch shoulder pads onto everything.
So that's been fun.
And then the rest of the time, I've just been working in here in the barn.
We're getting really, really close now.
So one of my mates, Sam, the absolute legend came over last week and helped me for an entire
day in the barn.
And we got so much shit done here.
We've got like the TV up so you can see that from the stream.

(04:08):
So obviously, when you're actually live, you can see what everyone else is seeing and you
can see the chats and all that sort of stuff.
We got all these gigantic rubber mats out of the room because they were just stinking
of rubber for some reason.
So we're going to get carpet in here now, which would be better for the acoustics to
be honest.
Oh yeah, and also nice, nice.
It'll just feel nice.
It's a bit more professional.

(04:29):
I love a carpet and a rug because being my Lebowski years.
You're way around a few carpets in your time.
I set me up.
So then we got a couple of the cameras working.
Those of you in the discord will have seen a little bit of our test footage just coming
through with a bit of Africa playing in the background for some reason.
It was just playing on my computer.
So we've got a dice can work in and then top down and the main camera and I've got all

(04:53):
of the cables now to do the rest.
So we're really pushing on.
I think I'm obviously going to be going away for a week in about a week and a half's time.
And then I know we'll get another episode recorded before we go.
So you guys won't miss out.
But yeah, when I'm back, I think the plan is to basically finish it all off that weekend
and then go live at the beginning of April.
So I've been saying we're going to go live at the beginning of December.

(05:17):
We're going to be going live at the beginning of December.
Yeah, so it's been pushed back once again, but I do think that we are actually properly
there now.
To be honest, it'd rather be good to be honest, buddy.
Take your time.
Take your time.
It needs to be right.
And also, we finally got someone making the logo for the back wall, which is going to
be excellent.
Oh my God.

(05:38):
Backlit logo of the battle barn for the behind us in the shot.
Holy shit.
We built the dice box.
We've got everything working.
It's going well.
So yeah, that's what I've been up to.
Quite a busy week.
What about yourselves?
Pro day one.
Sorry, I'm just quite mesmerized by that.
Well, as I've been leaking out of various orifices and I'm here today because, you know,

(05:59):
I'm trying to keep calm and carry on.
I haven't really had that much sort of in my haze of delirium chance to model much.
However, I've been gunning my way through the inner circle companions because I've been
loving that.
However, I did have a naughty go, a possessed.
Oh, mate, he is beautiful by the way.

(06:20):
Is that Blanche paints the red?
Yeah, I was stunned by that.
You guys haven't seen it.
It's on your Instagram, right?
You put it on there?
Yeah, yeah.
No, I haven't put it on my Instagram.
Oh, it's not finished.
I know it's not finished, but the red alone is worth it just for like a midway through
shot.
So like such nice edge highlighting.
Really cool.
Oh, you're very cute.

(06:41):
Thank you very much.
That's all right.
No, and I just got bored and I was like, I need to do something just to just to palate
cleanse it.
And I was experimenting with the Blanche Blanche Sioux wall painter deliciousness.
And I loved it.
I had so much fun.
And I did that in an hour.
Wow.
No way.
That's really took me an hour.
That's good.

(07:02):
And I was like, wow, if I can replicate that across 10, I'm planning to do my three 10
blocks of possessed in three different colors palette.
Yeah, that means so I'm going to do one, which will be the classic word bearer scheme, which
is that with great shoulder pads, one that's gray with red shoulder pads and one that's
a slightly chalkier gray with red shoulder pads.
I had a lot of fun doing that.

(07:24):
That's wicked.
And just drowning in in fanatic paints and loving that really.
That's honestly like, did you but you like the reds, right?
Yeah, really, really gorgeous.
Honestly, loving it.
Pucker.
Thank you.
Very cool.
Good hobby, mate.
Thank you.
And yeah, just experimenting with some stuff, really getting ready to obviously get everything

(07:46):
done for the team event, working on my Gladius Dark Angels.
So all good.
All good.
I'm going to go bloody one and four again.
So you'd be fine.
Don't let it get to you.
I'll be right.
You can tell it's bothered me, right?
Yeah, it's all right, man.
Honestly, it happens to us all.
Literally.
It's happened to me.
It's happened to many people.
You know, sometimes you just have a bad weekend.
You get the tough matchups, you know, so good.

(08:09):
So good.
So good.
So good.
At least I wasn't playing baseball.
Seven years ago.
So me.
And half the bloody room apparently.
I like your space world.
Good work.
Speaking of good work, Pete, before we proceed, like, comment, subscribe.
Oh, you get earlier every week.

(08:31):
I'm just I'm done with being unprofessional now.
It's got ten posted notes now around his screen.
Just there.
They were all there staring at me.
Please get please.
If you enjoy the pod and we've had some really lovely feedback of late, actually, including
some really lovely people enter the discord as well.
Yeah.
Great comments.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lovely.

(08:52):
Actually, please subscribe.
It means a lot.
We're like slowly getting our way out there.
We'll channel how we get out eventually, but it'll take a while.
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(09:13):
We love that eternal doom scrolling to get get on Instagram and give us some love.
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(09:34):
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So just totally appreciate you genuinely.
And if you if you guys do want to support, there is a link to the Patreon down below.
So thank you.
Nice.
Nice.
There we go.
See, all of the business done.
Let's talk about our first very, very juicy topic.
Now, I must confess, I've got a lot to say on this subject, but you are the case study
guy in this instance because I'm quite naive to this.

(09:57):
Right.
And I want to obviously voice my opinion because I'm an opinionated bastard.
And I like to throw my weight around in terms of my opinions and stuff.
But this is not my area of expertise.
It's your area of expertise.
Yeah.
So we're going to be talking about famous cheaters in 40K.
Right.
And is redemption possible should the community give certain members a second chance?

(10:19):
Does cheating belong in the hobby at all?
Right.
So we're going to have a frank and open discussion surrounding the taboo subject of cheating
in 40K.
Exactly.
And we don't want any witch hunting or any of that crap in the comments or anything.
So just keep it civil because this is all this is a sort of topic where everyone's going
to have an opinion on it and whether it's one way or the other.

(10:42):
So, you know, that's absolutely fine.
We are just taking a neutral stance on this and just sort of having a look at it as an
interesting subject to debate because I think it genuinely is.
And when we say cheating, I don't just mean cheating.
I also think we're talking about like bad sportsmanship at the table and that sort of
stuff.
So like what spurred this on is that there has been a recent controversy in the wider

(11:06):
sort of competitive 40K community.
I'm sure many of you will have seen it already or watch the video, etc, etc.
But if you haven't, I will fill you in on it.
So basically there is a chap called Innis Wilson who plays for Team Scotland and he
is one of the guys from StatCheck.
And he was live streaming the other day with his mate where they were talking about some

(11:27):
of the stats from tournaments over the weekend.
And Innis had recently gone to the Manchester GT where he had faced Alex Harrison.
Now Alex Harrison has got a bit of a reputation as a player who doesn't necessarily have
the best sportsmanship.
And I think he has I believe he's had a ban from UKTC in the past, whether it was for

(11:48):
direct cheating or not.
I can't remember off the top of my head, but he's since obviously come back off of that
ban.
And from what I've heard generally from the wider community, he's not a great opponent
to play.
And Innis basically just said, I had a terrible experience playing Alex at this event and
he just called him out on it.
And Innis' point was that he felt that you should be able to call these people out for

(12:13):
it at events and talk to your TO about it and try and move forward with it because otherwise
it just flies under the radar.
And now Innis is obviously a well-known competitive player.
He's like one of the top GSC players in the world and he's an incredible player and a
really well-respected guy.
And I think he was basically trying to say that if Alex is doing this to him, what's

(12:39):
he doing to other players, those of us out there that aren't as experienced as Innis
or that are new to the game or coming back.
This is our first tournament, etc.
You could come in and have a horrific experience playing someone like that and then be put
off of it for life.
And basically he was saying, I feel like this kind of thing doesn't belong in competitive
40k and that's why he called him out on it.

(13:01):
It's not the first time this has happened.
Other people have had previous bands and we'll go into that.
But that's what spurred this conversation on because I just thought it was a really
interesting debate point to sort of talk about how do you address it?
What can we do as a community, etc.?
So, Russ, give me your thoughts.
What do you think about the whole thing?
I mean, that's really interesting to bring that to the table.

(13:23):
I actually hadn't heard of this event and this issue at all.
And I think it takes quite a lot of bravery to potentially call someone out on their misconduct.
It's like you automatically at that point almost put yourself in the situation where
you're potentially quite vulnerable to cliques or people having to go back and return.

(13:45):
But I feel that you kind of have to do this kind of thing with T.O.s and stuff like that
in order to keep your space healthy, to keep your events healthy and stuff like that.
And this game is a weird kind of game, right?
We've talked about this on the pod before where it's such a community based game
and everything involved in it from the ground up is so grassroots and it takes you so long

(14:11):
to make an army, put an army together or whatever and yet having a really bad event
or having a really bad opponent if you're a new player could be the death of your 40k experience in general.
And that's not right, man. It's just not. It's really harsh.
And you're all there to have fun and you're all there, I presume, you're all there to have fun

(14:33):
and have a great time. At least that's why I go to events.
Maybe I'm the weird one.
My point is that it's not a normal gaming sort of thing where it's so community based
that that kind of behavior has no place in the hobby.
I'm taking quite a hardline stance on this in as much as I cannot abide it, really.

(14:55):
I can't abide rudeness in that form and stuff like that.
If you're a bit salty, if they're having a rough weekend or whatever, then within reason
you can try and elevate each other's spirits and kind of move past it or whatever.
But if someone's been quite aggro or confrontational or coming for blood at all costs,
then that's an issue and opens up the wider discussion of is that person redeemable in the future?

(15:24):
Because it's hard because you become a little bit like Batman where it's like
you're this vigilante character in the community and it's like
it's a slippery, slippery slope and you've got to be careful as well by that same token as well.
Because they might not be aware of the fact that they have issues or whatever.
There might be so much going on there that they might need to be checked and stuff like that.

(15:49):
So there's a lot going on there.
They might have no idea that their behavior is so destructive.
Yeah. And I think we've touched on this before where we've said that this is, at the end of the day,
a social interaction between two people and it's a long one.
It's a three hour social interaction generally at least.
That's something where I find you wouldn't want to have an awkward three hour social interaction with anybody.

(16:16):
Whenever I go to the table, I'd love to, in the ideal way, obviously, winning or losing a side,
I'd love to come away from that game with my opponent either on the verge of being a friend
or somebody that's saying they want to talk, reach out to me in the future and be like,
hey, man, great game, etc.
And that's the kind of thing I want to leave my opponents with.

(16:37):
I don't want to leave them thinking, what a cock, I never want to play him again.
Because if that's what's happened, regardless as to the outcome of the game,
then you've kind of lost really.
Because if you keep doing that, then eventually you're going to get this reputation
and people are going to not want to play you.
And I've had this before with my local scenes where we've had players who are that guy kind of players

(17:01):
and they get to a point where they just can't get any games because nobody wants to play them
because they're fed up with their shit and they're getting to a stage where it's like,
the only way that these people are getting games is by signing up to events that will actually let them play there
because these people have been banned from certain local events and stuff.
So it's just not a good road to start to go down.

(17:22):
And I think the interesting thing about it is like certain other places like Magic the Gathering
and all of those sort of scenes are very hard on bad sportsmanship and cheating.
They will come down on that shit real fast and you're out.
Whereas with Warhammer, we kind of, I think, I don't know what it is,
we're all there to have a good time, I think, generally speaking.

(17:45):
And I think that a lot of people, if they come out of a game like that,
they don't necessarily go and report it.
They won't necessarily make a big thing out of it.
They'll kind of brush it under the rug and go, oh yeah, that was shit.
Sorry, go on.
No, I think it's because as well, I don't think you're wrong in the personality front, by the way.

(18:06):
I think that you're absolutely right.
We tend to be a bit meeker when it comes.
We tend to be non-confrontational, right?
Yeah, exactly.
I'm a little bit pissed and vinegary, where you'll know my opinion halfway across the room.
So I'm not like that.
But I don't think you're wrong in that opinion at all.
But I think the difference between Magic the Gathering or TCG or even a bit e-sporty,

(18:29):
is a lot of card games are predominantly,
don't get me wrong, the collecting element of the game is there,
but predominantly it is a game first, right?
Yes.
Whether with Warhammer and stuff like that, competitive Warhammer actually makes up a very small percentage of people that buy Warhammer, right?
Don't get me wrong.
It's growing, but it's not as big as narrative.

(18:51):
It's growing all the time, but nowhere near.
Or even like Kitchen Table or whatever, right?
So that infrastructure of expectation of what behaviour should be like,
I just don't think is necessarily there compared to more competitive games that have been there forever.
Do you know what I mean?
And I think predominantly it is more of a hobby than is also a competitive game.

(19:17):
Because there is that hobby lag.
To go and play a game of Magic the Gathering, you just need to go and buy a load of cards.
Shuffle up and play.
That's it. Off you go.
Cards are already printed. They're already done. You don't need to paint them.
God, imagine if you needed to paint every Magic the Gathering artwork.
It's that kind of thing.
And I think you bang on with that.
It's a different kind of game.
And I think that also it's not as easy to spot cheating outright in this game as it is with a Magic the Gathering tournament or something.

(19:45):
Where someone's slipping cards into their deck.
You can count those out. You can check someone down.
If someone's adding an extra inch of movement here or there and being a bit loosey goosey.
Subtle.
Yeah, exactly.
Because a lot of the time, this is what I find really fascinating about cheating as well.
Whether it's micro-cheating like that or whether it's bad sportsmanship or whether it's just full-blown cheating.
We've seen video evidence of people on stream saying that dice are five or six and they're just like a one or two.

(20:13):
I mean, they're idiots.
Why would you?
It's on a fucking dice cam.
Literally ridiculous.
But anyway, we'll go into that now.
Oh baby, baby.
So I find it really interesting the psychology behind cheating.
Because at the end of the day, you can't have any really cheating yourself.
Which is a bit strange.
But I do get why a lot of these sort of bad sportsmanship like things start to creep in.

(20:38):
And I know that it's because they're coming from a place of pressure.
Whether that be internal or external, the pressure is for you to win.
And then you start taking a little bit of a liberty.
You go, I'll just shove it a little bit loosey there.
You know, he might point away, notice.
But then that's the start of it.
It's like a gateway drug.
And then suddenly, a few tournaments later, you're stacking your fucking secondary deck.

(21:02):
And stuff like that.
So you've got to really be careful.
It's just so sad.
It's a slippery slope, I think.
I just find that so tragically sad.
It is sad.
It's a hobby of all hobbies.
Yeah.
It's like, you know.
Toilet dies and stuff, you know.
It's all that sort of thing.
That's funny though.
That is funny.
But yeah, I just find it all a little bit tragic really.

(21:24):
And it's like, you know.
And you know, like what happens to me recently, events, sometimes you just get your ass whipped.
You just got to deal with it.
And you know what?
You get better.
You just get better.
You just get better.
You grind it.
You get a bit better.
You grind it.
You get a bit better.
So, you know, as you say, you're only cheating yourself and your own development as a player.
If you do that and you don't relish those learning opportunities that life gives you.

(21:48):
Let's say that, you know, you find yourself on this slippery slope and you start getting
a bit loosey-goosey with your movement.
You're adding an inch here or there.
You start, you know, flubbing dice rolls behind buildings and, you know, just these sort of
small little things that are cheating.
But yeah, exactly.
They're just sort of adding up over the course of a game.
Adds up to a significant advantage, that sort of stuff.

(22:10):
So, let's say you're finding yourself on that road and you get caught by an opponent or
a TO, walks past and sees it or something like that.
What do you think?
Like, as, and we'd love to know your thoughts in the comments below on this one, because
I think this is really interesting.
Do you think that person should be given, you know, a warning?
Do you think they should be banned either temporarily or permanently from that said

(22:33):
tournament circuit?
Or do you think, you know, they should be given a second chance?
How, like, because that's what I find really interesting, because obviously we've had this
before.
Alex Harrison himself has had a previous ban and come back.
And we also had other people like Manny Chima, who is a really good guy, by the way, like
lovely chap.
I met him a couple of times now.

(22:54):
He was getting a bit of a reputation at one point for this kind of like sportsmanship
kind of stuff rather than the hard cheating.
But like, I think people were starting to have a few bad games against him here and
there.
He had a little bit of a temporary ban, came back, completely cleaned his act up.
And I've had like reports from people that I know who have played him since.
And they said they've had excellent games, really good fun.

(23:15):
And he's still playing really fucking hard and doing really well at tournaments.
So clearly this isn't a necessity.
He didn't need it.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, he just needs his skill at the end of the day.
But like, should these people be given a second chance?
Manny's a great example of somebody who's been given that second chance.
Little ban and he's come back and turned his act around.
Alex, not so much, apparently.
So, you know, what do you do?

(23:37):
Interesting case studies.
I find this fascinating because I'm not down with this.
This is really interesting to me.
See, I find it fascinating, right, that we have a game where we have such like
specific detailed rules concerning like loads, loads, loads of elements of
gameplay of our game, like everything from like, you know, all of what's going

(23:58):
on with our updates to terrain, like, you know, and the uniformity of terrain
and how that goes.
Yet we do not have a universal tournament sort of like thing on cheating, right?
And I think that's a problem.
And I think that needs to be addressed.
And for me, it's dead simple.
It's a three strikes warning to situation.

(24:21):
Sure.
And if you get banned from one event, ban them for a selected event of that
umbrella of events for an extended period of time.
And, you know, potentially if you are a to, it should be at your discretion
whether you allow that player into your event or not.
It's your gatekeep, man.
Like, you know, it's a privilege to come to like a local event.

(24:42):
That's great and awesome.
Like obviously the Oxford Onslaught and we have Michael or whatever, right?
It's a privilege and an honor to go to an event like that.
If the TO decides that actually, hold on, you might be quite horrible and, you
know, dare I say cancerous to this event, would you mind not?
I know that's well within their rights to say that.

(25:04):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that's totally fair.
I think it should be a three strikes at an event you're out vibe, right?
And like, you know, if it was, you know, the UKTC kind of vibe, right?
Like if you're banned from one event, you're banned from all of them.
And that's just the way it goes.
I think that's how it goes.
And I think you're pretty bang on.
Like I think, you know, clearly people can turn their act around.

(25:26):
You know, that's evidenced.
And I think that I don't think it's fair to just be like, you did, you know, you
found yourself on that dark path.
Fuck you forever.
You can never play for a day again.
Because it's a game they love clearly whether or not, you know, they've
fallen down that bad road, regardless of that.
Like I think, you know, the giving people short bands, you know, to begin
with that maybe get longer.

(25:48):
So let's say that the first offense you get like a month, but this then or
like the next tournament sort of you can't come to whatever the next one.
It's a three month ban.
And then the third one is a ban for the entire season.
And then once that's gone through, if you do it again, then you're just banned.
And I think at that point, that's on you.
Yeah, because if at that point you are then, you know what I mean?

(26:10):
You're then putting a middle finger up to authority at that point and going
like, I'm going to still treat anyway.
Then dude, that is so on you at that point, right?
And like you said, I think I and by that same token, I do think that
redemption is possible.
For sure.
Of course it is.
It's like, you know, you look at how silly we were as younger people or

(26:33):
whatever, and like how you can evolve and change over time, or even just a
different psychological state or whatever, right?
Yeah.
There's potential in this all to make great changes in our lives, right?
Not being hippie about it, but it's true.
But like, you know, if you're deliberately being a horrible member of
your community by pushing that all the time, no one wants you there.
And like the problem is, is it's not so much the fact that you're going to

(26:57):
be bashing heads at the top tables and causing a ruckus there, which is
already bad, but on your way to get there, you might be putting off
people for life is a problem.
Yeah.
And you know, this game, this entire crux of this game, whether it's
waxed or waned with popularity over the years is a result of your
community and it will live and die by the strength of its community.

(27:20):
And if you're fucking over the community, just to like get around
in, that's a problem.
And you kind of need to get spanked for that because that's just not
fucking on.
Because all it takes is for Sean the seal to be at his first event.
And he's like, you know, he's coming in there.
He wants to just do his three or five games, depending on whether it's
an RTT or GT is not looking to win any.
He just wants to come away.

(27:42):
Having tried it.
Good experience, which I think a lot of people, including some of the
listeners of the show will be in this situation, whether they've already
just done their first tournament, they're going to one later this year,
et cetera, et cetera.
That's a really exciting thing.
And then if you draw into one of these guys round one and have your shit
pushed in in the nastiest way possible, it's not about losing.
It's just about having a bad social interaction where you come out of it

(28:04):
going, that was really hard work.
And I felt like that was a miserable three hours of my life that I'll
never get back.
That's not what we want at all.
I don't think anyone wants that.
And if that's you, you need to have a good look at yourself and think about
why you do this hobby.
If it's to win, clearly you don't need to push these increments of like

(28:25):
cheating to win.
I know that there's the top tables.
It's a very fine line between who wins a big event.
I get that.
But that's just not the way to do it.
And you're also, even if you won like that, you're not really winning.
You know in your heart you've cheated.
Who's this for at the end of the day?
Look at the monster you became along the way.

(28:47):
If you look at yourself when you started the hobby, is that really why you
started the hobby in your first place?
And if it is, get a life.
Get a fucking life.
It's just not fucking on.
When I play a game, I always make sure that my opponent is in for the ride on
everything that I do where it's like, I'm advancing here, I'm doing this.
You work with each other.

(29:09):
Do you reckon this charge is six inches?
Do you reckon this charge is seven inches?
What do you reckon?
And you could potentially debate something and kind of go, well, that's
fair enough.
All right then.
And that's what TOs are for, right?
Because if you really get to a point where you're massively disagreeing on
like a line of sight issue and your laser pen batteries have run out, then
you can get the TO over and he can have a look and figure it out for you and

(29:32):
come down on one side or the other.
And that's what it's for.
And that's the fashion of the law, right?
Where you know what your opponent's intention is when they're doing such and
such a thing.
And it's like, you know, I've said to my opponents in the past, like in case
I forget, I'm picking the calendar stuff at the end of the turn or something.
Right?
And it's obvious.
Unless I say otherwise, it's always going in this direction.

(29:53):
I'm doing this.
This is what I'm going to do.
And like, it's very clear then what intentions for rules are.
Yeah.
Right.
Someone could still be a prick and go like, you didn't pick the calendar stuff.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
And then they'll go, I'm picking it up.
And then they'll pick a secondary where they want to leave it down.
And then they'll go, well, I didn't pick it up deliberately or something.
And then you're like, well, you said you would pick it up.

(30:14):
And then it's those sort of things.
That's again, one of those really awkward interactions where a lot of people
will be like, okay, then, and they just let it slide.
But that is a cheat really.
If you've, you've.
You wouldn't have known that.
And you wouldn't have known that either.
I mean, like it takes stuff out of a thing.
I mean, I think it's a lot of people who are like, you know, don't push your
opponent's nicety either.

(30:36):
Right.
Where it's like, you know, a tabletop, even, even, you know, a games club or
whatever, if you're doing something out of sequence or you should get to do
something like bloody an entire phase ago or something like, you know, okay,
you could retrospectively go back and do it, but like in a tournament, like
don't be that guy to like, go like, do you know what I mean?
Just, just lick it off and go, ah, shit.

(30:57):
And that's on you as well.
And then it's up to your opponent.
They give you a take back or whether they don't put them in that, like,
don't try to not put your opponent in that situation where they feel like the
bad guy for not allowing you a play when actually, you know, I don't know.
It's really complicated.
I guess that's the other thing that this game is it's so complicated that

(31:19):
it's easy to miss detail.
It's easy.
Everyone makes mistakes.
Right.
And like even the top players after bloody eight games over a weekend or
whatever, there's a shadow rounds and you know, semi-finals and stuff.
They're going to make mistakes.
Like even if they're one of the best players in the world, cause they're
tired and like the regular Joe is going to be knackered after three games.
Like in his third game and his first tournament ever, you will realize how

(31:42):
much that fucking hurts your legs and your back and stuff.
And you will be mentally drained and physically drained.
So, you know, you've got to kind of expect mistakes to happen.
It's when people try and pass off cheating as a mistake or, you know, this
sort of stuff and that's what we've got to be careful of.
It's a fine line to draw.
Right.
And then before, you know, you've got loaded dice down the fucking
bogger.

(32:03):
Yeah.
You're like, Oh Christ.
But by that same instance, I do think redemption is possible and like, and,
and, you know, you can learn a lot.
And I think, you know, this is one thing that I do love this hobby for, like
getting all like woo is like not only from that perspective, but like you
really dig deep with so many elements of yourself that you don't realize that
you had, whether it's your artistic element of what you do, because we all

(32:26):
have imposter syndrome, right?
Or whether it's, you know, your autistic.
Maybe, you know, there's a lot of us on the spectrum.
Yes.
Neurodivergency to the max.
But like, you know, a whole manner of things that you discover about yourself
and you kind of find your tribe.
And it's like, look at us, man.

(32:48):
Like this whole pods was founded on the friendship of two people having a game
at a tournament.
And that's how this pod was founded.
And we've never looked back and I love you to bits.
Likewise.
If we would have had a shit game there, that would have been it.
It's been like, fuck you, Ed.
Like how dare you.
Yeah.
Imagine if I'd have just been like, you know, a little, little goblin.
I know it looked like one, but if I'd actually been one and just been a twat to

(33:11):
play against you to come out and go, no, fuck that guy.
I was playing, I was playing a meta, a meta unit.
I was playing desolation marines, apothecary, right?
Like the thing, you know, you could have been like, fuck that unit.
You're such a dick for taking that unit.
Well, the whole game through it and you won and you won convincingly.
So, you know, it was great.
Yeah.

(33:32):
I mean, I think like people, people grow as players and you know, when you're
you, as you said, you will find things out about yourself.
A lot of people I find early on in this game, they'll sort of take it quite
casually, then they'll start to get better.
They'll go to an event or two.
They'll start to put the pressure on themselves to perform.
And that is a very dangerous turning point because at that stage, you can

(33:54):
really easily get into the phase of that dark road where you're slipping
down the cheating or even the other way, which is another one we talked about
in the past, which is things like if the dice don't go your way, like dice
can, dice blaming or like getting really salty events because, you know, you're
rolling badly or whatever it is or beating yourself up for mistakes.
Like those sort of things aren't cheating and they're not bad sportsmanship,

(34:18):
but they do affect you as a player.
And they also affect the way you act at the table.
And obviously, like that will start to mount up during a game.
If I'm just being a salty grumpy bastard the entire game because I'm
rolling badly, then my opponent is going to think this isn't much fun.
You know, I feel bad enough already.
And now he's making this more miserable.
Like whenever I get diced at a table and it does happen occasionally, not

(34:42):
that much.
It's generally even out, but sometimes I'll get diced.
It's just the odd game.
And when it happens, you just got to roll with it.
You got to do the best you can and have a laugh at it.
Like my opponent and I, my last game at the ITT recently, we were having a
good laugh about the fact that I just couldn't roll a fucking charge to save
my life.
It was funny.
Like we were just like this is becoming like a meme at this point.

(35:05):
And that's what it should be like.
You should take that interpretation because, again, we're just trying to have
a story and enjoy the game, regardless as to whether it's in your, you know,
your garage or in a competitive arena.
So it's important to write.
You said, remember why you got into this, right?
And also at the end of the day, it's a game of fucking toy soldiers.

(35:26):
It is fucking serious.
Don't we really do?
You're wrong.
It's a very spenny game of toys.
And it has arguably the greatest law of any fictitious world ever.
Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's still a game of fucking toys.

(35:47):
It is.
And if you're attaching your ego to the outcome of a game of moving fucking
toy soldiers around the board, you need to check your reality a little bit.
Yeah.
Ego in 40K is a really difficult one.
We talked about this again when we were talking about that sort of sportsmanship
and stuff in the past.
And I think it is a hard one.
A lot of people have a big ego and it's fine, you know, but you've got to work

(36:12):
around that and you need to kind of learn and get to know thyself.
And yeah, exactly.
Just take it easy.
We're all here to have fun.
Make it a lovely experience for your opponent.
It's like, you know, I always think it's like that sort of mantra of treat
someone how you want to be treated.
Yeah, that's a great one.
If I was to have a game of 40K against somebody, how would I want my opponent

(36:36):
to be acting throughout that game, whether it went well or bad for them?
You know, that's what I'm trying to put out the whole time.
Just be yourself and have fun.
Right?
And don't cheat.
See, coming from a musical background, though, even then at the height of
egos in 40K, that's nothing compared to the music world.
Oh, mate, I'm sure.
I'm sure.
Oh my God.
Dude, it's horrifying.
Yeah, I bet it is.

(36:57):
It's not connected to reality in any way, shape or form.
And it's just like, oh my fucking God, how have you survived?
Mental.
But, you know, whatever.
It is what it is.
But let us know your thoughts on this.
We would love to know because this has been a really, like you proved this topic
and I was like, oh, yeah, it's just because it came up on my radar.
And I just thought it was a really interesting one to talk about because I think,

(37:18):
you know, we haven't seen what UKTC's stance is on this.
Innis has said that he's not going to play another UKTC event until they deal with it.
And, you know, whether or not that's going to happen.
It's quite a stance.
It is, especially for such a top player, you know, and I think we're going to have to see
how they come down on it because it's up to Zach and his team at the end of the day.

(37:40):
But I do think this is a topic that needs to be talked about.
I think that's the biggest takeaway for me is that Innis is bang on.
I think you should be able to call people out.
Yeah, exactly.
We're all too polite here and we're all like, you know, we don't like that.
Like you said, we don't like confrontation.
And I think that's fine.
But when it comes to a shit experience for yourself, you need to be able to take that

(38:04):
and go, actually, I don't want this shit experience that I've had to be passed forward
to my next opponent and then, you know, et cetera, et cetera down the line
and actually stand up and say, you know, this was bad because of X and Y, you know,
and then at least the T.O. can deal with how they see fit.
And at that point, it's on them and not you.
But I do think as a wider community, we should be calling out cheating

(38:28):
and we should be calling out shit sportsmanship and just general douchebaggery at the table
because there's no place for it.
This is a fun hobby and we all love it.
And we want to, you know, we want to have fun with our toy soldiers that we fucking
spent millions of pounds on.
Yes, I've bankrupted ourselves.
At the end of the day, right, when Warhammer is so weird because when everything's going
well and everything's great, it is literally the ultimate hobby.

(38:52):
It is. I fucking love it.
I've played a lot of games over the years.
I've been a little bit into e-sports at one point.
I've been really into TCGs.
I was a really good magic player at one point.
That was in the previous life.
You look like a magic player.
I do, of course.
Like, shut the fuck up.
I'm going to come and beat you up.
Right.
And like, you know, but I can safely say hand on heart that like out of all the games I've

(39:15):
played, the ups that I've had in this hobby have been the greatest ups.
Equally, some of the lows have been quite low.
And it's like, you know, try and try and find that median of like calling people out, but
also, you know, trying to keep your hobby as healthy as possible.
Exactly.

(39:36):
And it's hard.
Like, if I had a shit opponent, I know personally that I would find it hard to confront them
about it and say, look, mate, you're a bit of a dick in this game.
And I feel like you should take that away and sort of have a think on it.
That's not an easy thing to say.
No, it's really not.
That really isn't.
Like, some people will have the balls and they'll just say it, you know.

(39:59):
Like, that's fine.
That's cool.
If you can do it, then do it.
But again, I do think the point that you touched on earlier is there should be a mechanism
for those of us that don't like confrontation to take the TO aside and have a little word
and sort of, you know, just move it forward so that they're on their radar, whatever it
is, you know, that needs to happen a bit more.

(40:21):
And I think it's almost feels like that's frowned upon behavior, but it shouldn't be.
It should be the norm.
You should be able to talk to your TO about bad opponents.
You really should.
I 100% agree.
Nice.
So let us know.
Yeah, please.
Yeah, let's say wow, we went on a ramp.
It's a big one.
I think it's a meaty choppy.

(40:42):
You can't just gloss that one.
So moving on.
So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, I don't think we can.
I don't know.
It's a dry blend.
That's why it's hot, hard.
Going in the land.
Yes.
Hard blend.
I don't know about that, actually.
So our favorite play styles on the old tabletop.

(41:03):
Fuck.
This is taking a turn for the light.
I know.
That's da da da da da da.
We are actually quite good fun normally.
Yeah.
We're not super serial.
So, so, would you like to start?
No, you go.
Okay.
I've just got agro beefcakes.
That should be your fucking number plate.
Agro beefcakes.

(41:24):
So I love, I love a tough boy.
I have learned, I have learned that like, like I dwell best when I've got a really hard unit that like doesn't want to die.
I like quite like weirdly getting in my opponent's grill.
Space Wolf jokes aside.
Shut the fuck up.
Everyone shut the fuck up.
Yes.

(41:45):
Apparently so.
Apparently I should just be playing Wolf Day all the time.
Can you give us a little ah-roo?
Absolutely not.
No, because it already exists anyway.
So I'm sure my mother-in-law should.
No, absolutely not.
Not with my current headspace.
But yeah, no, beefcakes.
I love it.
I love it.
I love a strong beefcake.
I kind of run elitish armies.

(42:06):
Not as elite as I could, obviously.
Yeah.
You could go custodies or knights if you really want to.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I used to be an Imperial whore, but now I have truly, truly got on my knees for the eight star, eight pointed star.
And I love it, apparently.
Yeah, talking that salty cool lane.

(42:28):
Very salty.
But I am really getting into getting in my opponent's grill early now.
Yeah.
That is coming to your thing.
If there's not a ten block of Assault Terminators in your deployment zone by turn three, Russ isn't playing this game right, basically.
Apparently not.
Apparently not.
So yeah, looking forward to playing a bit of Gladius.
And of course, when I play CSM, I think weirdly, and please forgive me,

(42:53):
Father Emperor, but I think Chaos may weirdly suit my playstyle better.
I think you're right.
Yeah.
Which is really horrible to admit.
And I'm going to be like, oh, God, no.
What's happened to you, Russ?
What's happened to me?
What's happened to me?
Although I'm looking forward to a bit of Trixie with Old World and playing some Bushman, Bushman, because of the old skirmishing rules when you can deploy it on the side of your opponent.

(43:15):
You're a bit of a flanker.
Flank into your opponent with Minotaurs.
Like, so there we go.
What noise is that?
I don't know, but I quite like it.
It sounded like half horse, half man.
If you haven't seen that video, by the way, Google it.
I have. It's funny.
It's great.
So yeah, so beefcakes to me, lad.
Beefy, beefy, beefy, all the beef and quite literal beef in the form of Beastman as well.

(43:38):
God, imagine a Beastman steak.
I think if I had to summarize my army choice, like my playstyle choice, it's annoying pricks.
It is. It's just annoying pricks.
I can't, I was going to go and be like, oh, I really like fast and like whatever, but it's not necessarily that.
It's just annoying pricks like Necron's annoying pricks.
They all get back up again.

(43:59):
They're annoying to kill, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
Then you've got like Gene Steeler Colts.
They're coming back.
They're the very definition of annoying pricks.
Yeah, they're annoying pricks.
You know, it's all that sort of thing.
I do like Trixie armies.
I do like fast.
I think guerrilla warfare kind of hard hitting, you know, that sort of stuff is what I'm into.
You're the Viet Cong to my America.

(44:23):
Fuck yeah.
Who won that war?
I know that's kind of like not getting political, but that's kind of a weird thing to say right now.
Oh my God.
It is.
But yeah, so that's what I like.
Just being an annoying bastard, basically.
No, it's almost like you should be playing Jakari yet.
I will one day.

(44:44):
I'm sure I will.
When they get their refresh, their range refresh.
That's true.
You did say that.
You did say that.
When you've been the range refresh app.
Yeah, I will do it.
See, in the same way that I should probably be playing like Korn Berserkers or something.
Yeah, you'd love, I mean, apart from the fact that the eight bounce sort of models are a bit sort of, you know, I'm not.

(45:06):
I think I love playing World Ears.
I think you would enjoy them.
Yeah.
There you go.
See, you go see.
Yes, you do strike me as a Trixie lad in every way, shape or form.
You quite like having an ace in your hole.
I, you know, I've always got an ace in my hole.
I know you do.
I know you do.
Look at how sombre our first topic was.
Leave one in the toilet with the toilet dice.
We were super serial for our cheating partners and now we're just like dick jokes at home.

(45:31):
All the dick jokes.
Let's have all the dick jokes.
Back to normal.
Regular scheduling has resumed.
I think one time in the tank we should swap play styles.
I should play something Trixie and you should play something like Beefy.
Yeah.
That'd be quite fun.
Actually.
I'll be up for that.
I'll be up for that.
But so just as a very thing, what would be a faction that you would never play to play

(45:58):
style just just off the bat, like straight away?
Like what would be a play style that you would least want to play?
That's a very good question.
I think it's a hard one.
I don't think I would necessarily particularly enjoy Tao.
I feel like they might be slightly too shooty for me.

(46:19):
Like I know that they've got the crude and stuff like that, but I feel like for me personally,
I quite enjoy melee trading.
Sure.
I quite enjoy that sort of gameplay where I'm like ducking and out of ruins and rushing
across the table and all that sort of stuff.
And I don't mind a bit of shooting.
I like a bit of shooting my list because it's nice to be able to deal with like fights first
units and various things.

(46:40):
But it's not like something I'd want all of, I think.
No, just I like to get a bit of crunch on the go.
So maybe that.
Yeah.
For me, it would be one of your favorite factions.
Genes see the cults is the anti me.
Genes see the cults is the anti me.
It's a horde army.
It's Trixie up the wazoo.

(47:01):
Nothing like it.
Just give me such a headache.
Like I'd have to think so far in advance.
Yeah.
It just it just it just killed my brain.
I wouldn't be generations in the making.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I'm for the here and now.
You just want to lick the stamp and send it get straight down the middle.
Apparently.
Apparently I do.
So who knows?
Maybe it will be blood.
Sometimes I'll leave one day.
Sometimes.

(47:22):
Yeah.
Apparently apparently apparently.
But let's know your favorite play styles down below.
Yeah.
Interesting.
It's interesting.
I do think you're right.
And to be honest, I think I think now and again, I think you should play out a play style
just to see what it's like.
And maybe you know, maybe you're surprised yourself and go, actually, I did enjoy this
more than I thought.
Swap armies with your mate or go and play a game on TTS, you know, because you don't

(47:45):
need any models for that.
Great idea.
Or when the app was, you know, free and you didn't need codex codes, you could have just
done it.
Imperial agents is really annoying me in the app at the minute.
So so annoying.
So annoying.
Yeah.
Like when you want a cheeky assassin.
Yeah.
And you're like, oh, opening new recruits and stuff like that.
It's just sort of out.
Sort of out, please for a 10.5 or 11.

(48:08):
Yeah.
So.
I'm speaking of that habitual process.
Our hobbyists at their fundamental level creatures a habit.
I would say so.
But I think that a lot of us are slowly changing as we grow as hobbyists, because I for the

(48:29):
longest time, and we talked about this in our painting episode recently, I think it
was all in that long ago.
I for the longest time.
Yeah, yeah, I only ever used games workshop paints, Citadel paints.
And it took me a while to sort of break down that sort of fear barrier of like the unknown
to try other points.
And I'm really glad that I have.

(48:51):
And we talked about that with Peach and we talked about it before as well.
I think it's a great thing to do.
Just break out of that comfort zone.
And also the same with the hobbying side of things and converting and all that sort of
stuff.
I think it's one of those things where you start off doing little bits and bobs, but
then you can really throw things to the wind and see what sticks and have a lot of fun
with it.
But yeah, I think I do think we are quite habitual.

(49:15):
I think like a lot of people are habitual in that they want to stick to their army as
well.
Like I think a lot of people like myself with the Necrons, you know, you stick to it for
like ages.
Me.
You and the Dark Angels.
Yeah.
Like real diehard fans of that faction and then it's quite nice to actually take a breath
of fresh air, pick an army that's completely different and just try it.

(49:37):
It's so much fun.
That's what I've done with the GSC.
It's so great.
Love it.
Another form of chaos for me.
So what do you say?
Are you habitual?
Do you say?
See, it's interesting because I am and I'm not right.
Like where from a factional base choice, I totally am.
Yeah.
Despite the fact that I am actually quite a few armies and stuff like that.
Right.
I'm now going wild with my armies and especially with my chaos, my for the chaos and stuff,

(50:02):
which has been really cool.
I've only ever played Dark Angels at event because that's my comfort blanket.
That's like, yeah, that's like, and that's from three editions now, eighth edition, ninth
edition and 10th edition.
Right.
Yeah.
I've only ever played Dark Angels at events and the first event I ever went to was at
the trail end of eight edition.
And I'm starting to like shake myself off from that now.

(50:24):
This year will be a big one for me because obviously I may even play Death Guard at the
LGT.
Yeah.
That would be massive for me.
That would be massive for me.
That would be really fun.
Especially with their new decks.
Ooh, spicy.
I've got a funny feeling they're going to be very good.
But regardless, right, like from a play perspective, and yet I am weirdly very much a creature

(50:46):
habit.
From a hobby perspective, not at all.
I don't know if that's my like creative part of me in a different part of my life.
Probably.
But like, but like I'm weirdly left field when it comes to like conversions and modeling
and stuff like that.
Well, I go fucking nuts.
Like if anyone's seen my gladiator tank, for example, with like chunks of lions and stuff
all over it or like the pretty much all of my Dark Angel army is all converted in some

(51:12):
way, shape or another.
Like nothing is standard.
Nothing is stopped.
All the heads are weird, all of the shoulder pads are weird, all of like the like, and
it's kind of a unique army.
Like the whole fucking army is completely like.
And you've got your name plates.
Exactly.
Right?
Like exactly.
As weird as it may sound, like it's all very unique.
Right.
And whenever I go into an army project, that's kind of like my head space of like, how do

(51:35):
I make this kind of at least a little bit me?
Yeah.
You are not reflected, I think.
So the conversion part of it has always been there, if that makes sense.
The paint stuff really kicked off with when and what made me really think was Two Thin
Coats when that started about two or three years ago, when Duncan obviously formed it.

(51:55):
And just having Duncan's name on it is like as basic as that may seem, made me really
think about like life outside of Citadel painting, where I was like, interesting.
Like, this is really cool.
And for the record, I really like Two Thin Coats paint.
They look gorgeous and stuff.
But what I've found is the viscosity and like the way that paint moves is so different between

(52:21):
brands.
For sure.
Yeah.
Where I've loved Citadel as like a basic like sort of thing in terms of like, they're kind
of like the middle of the road Tesco's of like miniature paints for me.
Right.
And then like Vallejo just don't-
Vallejo?
Vallejo.
Vallejo.
That well-known Spanish organization.

(52:42):
Vallejo.
Vallejo.
Are they Spanish?
Yeah, I think Vallejo is Spanish.
They've had some issues recently.
They have, yeah.
Vallejo.
At least they've got a load of their stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
Their viscosity never worked for me.
Like I just didn't like the way that that shit moved on my palette.
I never liked it.
The old Army painter stuff was mediocre.

(53:04):
I quite liked the Two Thin Coats stuff, but where I've really gone into it, and I've talked
about this before and I'm sorry, but the fanatic Army painter paints, for whatever reason,
and it goes on my palette, I'm like, this is really easy to work with.
And my painting has got way better.
Do you use a wet palette or a dry palette?
No, no, no.
I'm a basic bitch.
I use my Cerver skull like thing there.

(53:29):
So I love it.
I actually think that's the best thing to do.
I've just got loads of the plastic ones, the shit ones.
Yeah.
I've just bought like 12 of them off Amazon.
I think there are strengths and weaknesses with wet palettes in general, right?
And I think the upkeep would drive me mad on one, right?
I do need to learn how to use them.
That's my problem.
Because of my ADHD, I'll paint for a day and then I'll leave it for two weeks and then
it's mouldy by the time I get to it.

(53:52):
And also with dads, right?
So like something can happen on the fly and then you've left it all out and it's awful
and it's all fucked, right?
Yeah, no, dude, I'm sure there are massive advantages to wet palettes and whatever, but
you can get similar effects on regular palettes, it's fine.
Yeah, if I'm doing a serious session, I'll use the wet palette.
But as you said, dads, it's difficult.

(54:13):
Exactly.
But weirdly with the fanatic range, I've just recently put an order in for a few fanatic
panellists to see what they're like of different colours and vibes.
And I have a funny feeling that that viscosity and the way that it moves on my palette and
stuff is going to be perfect for me.
So I might have found my perfect range.
And I think, you know, and that's taken me years.

(54:36):
So it's like, and you know, a new range of paints that literally came out like six months
ago.
So, you know, be brave people get out of your comfort zone, try the fanatic range.
Let us know what you think.
I know that it takes a little bit of investment in terms of like time and also like actual
investment as well.
But I think it's worth it because I think just swallowing it kind of lends to you not

(54:59):
growing as much as a hobbyist.
And also fuck GW pots.
Oh, I'm sorry.
But like, dude, I much prefer dropper bottles.
I'm getting to the point where like that alone is starting to really put me off where I'm
like, I don't mind it with their contrast once because they don't dry.
Yeah, they don't dry in the same way.

(55:20):
But I agree with you.
The fucking normal paints are just so crusty and like, and then it kills your paint.
Yeah, yeah.
It kills your paint.
You can heat it all off and it's just a nightmare.
The dropper bottles like again with the fanatic ones as well.
I don't know if you know this, I'm just selling like ARMY.
I do want to actually get a dose of ARMY paint now because I love it.
I'd love to suck all that pop of tea.

(55:43):
But they've got two mixing balls in every pot.
Well, that's perfect.
Yeah, I like two balls.
I do too.
I mean, I generally only put one in, just dip it in.
Oh no, you need to put two in.
Do you put two?
I'm a one ball man.
Well, normally I can't fix.
I just get clips.
But bollocks.
For fuck's sake.
I set myself up for these.
Normally I'm a one ball man.
Probably the discord like that.

(56:03):
Right, yeah.
I'm a one agitator ball man.
See, I thought that was part of your joke anyway.
And then you're like, oh bollocks.
No, it wasn't literally in this case.
You'll never know.
Never know.
But you know, and I'm just learning that actually like, wow, there is so much out there and

(56:27):
you owe it to yourself to spend a little bit of time researching and don't be pressured
to just buy Citadel paints because it's there.
This is there staring at you.
Right.
And I know that people online tend to use Citadel paints, but just use a conversion
chart.
There's loads of conversion charts out there.
Same with the rattle cans for old thingy.
That's a great example.
That's a colour forge.

(56:48):
Colour forge is a great example of the thing that we always presumed, which was like you're
in a GW, you got a thing and it's the classic.
Chaos Blank.
So do you need some paints?
You did that on the Poblet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I went there and I went there straight away.
But it's like the truth of the matter is it's like, like actually thinking about it and

(57:09):
taking your time and going like, wow, you know, this is a better paint than what GW
makes and you get more for less.
And for a billion colours, for all of these colours, like 50 different colours or something
ridiculous.
Really helps.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(57:30):
Yeah.
So in terms of like coming out your comfort zone there, like that's a massive one.
So like, you know, has there been any revelation for any of you?
Like have you tried?
What do you think?
Am I going mad?
Am I just dying due to the hype of the old Fanatic range?
Because I just think I feel like I'm a town crier at this point that's gone mad and is
just like Fanatic, Fanatic, like ringing the bell like, like shame, shame, right?

(57:52):
And I'm just like doing it.
It's not like the army painter series one, which was wank according to peachy.
It's not.
So I mean, look at, look at my Gal Vorbach, right?
Like, like that shit was real.
And I was like, Oh my God, can I paint like that?
And it was like apparently I can.
So you know, let us know.
Let us know.
Let us know.
Well, your favourite paints as well.

(58:13):
I'm curious.
I'm curious.
Yeah.
I'd love to get the seed studio lads on at some point.
This is something I really annoyed that I didn't ask peachy.
Oh, maybe I did, but I forgot, which was about the dry brushes.
Like I can't find good dry brushes at the minute.
I don't want to spend loads, an arm and a leg on old what's his name's dry brushes.
What are they called?
The white ones.

(58:33):
Artisopas.
I've got some.
I didn't find them incredible.
The hair came out on them really easily.
I was finding, I don't know why, like they're good, but I don't know.
I just didn't find them.
They didn't blow me away for the price, right?
And then the problem with makeup brushes is yeah, they're fine, but I can never find the
right fucking size.
Can I give you, can I give you a recommendation?
Orange brushes.

(58:54):
Do they do dry brushes?
Yeah, they just definitely.
Because I looked and I couldn't find any, but maybe I was just being an idiot.
Orange brushes, they now do dry brushes.
Okay, great.
I'm going to check them out because I'm just looking for something that's, because dry
brushes kind of get annihilated a little bit, right?
Because you really do give them some wellies sometimes.
And you want something like a price point of one that's going to last you long enough.

(59:15):
And then when you throw it away, you're not going to feel like you've basically burned
your mortgage.
I'm curious.
I'm actually curious about this because I'm going to, I'm going to Google the price.
How much would you spend for a decent dry brush?
For a decent dry brush?
I don't know.
Probably a tenner.
Ooh, let's just see then.
So orange brushes.
I'm curious.
I think I know how much they are.
Dude.
So for £13.50, you get three of their dry brushes.

(59:39):
Great.
I'll have a look.
I'll probably go for them next.
When I've absolutely destroyed these poor makeup brushes I've got from Boots, I will
give that a go.
You know that again, they're very grassroots and they're getting massive.
Yeah.
I've heard that you've mentioned them before, but I love to look on them.
They're my favourite brushes.
They're my favourite brushes.
I'll give them a go.
For sure.
There you go.
See, there you go.

(01:00:00):
See.
And they're colour coded for different tips for like how to figure out what tips.
Nobody expects the Inquisition.
No, what a great blend.
Talking about.
No one expects the Imperial Inquisition.
Exactly.
Wow.
So the epicness of the Inquisition is our final topic for today.
Wow.

(01:00:20):
What a way to like bring this back to...
I thought you liked that.
I loved it.
I loved it.
That was great.
It kind of shat me up actually.
It shat me up.
I was like, I was like, fucking hell, I was looking at the Orange Brush website and then
it just got shot.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't check my handy.
So wow.
Wow.
I mean, we could, we could talk about this for hours, but dude, I mean, what an incredible

(01:00:43):
part of the lore, the old Inquisition, right?
And like, dude, it's one of the most terrifying epic and just awesome parts of the Imperial
history is like the Inquisition and like how powerful this one organisation is in the grand
scheme of things, right?

(01:01:04):
What are your, what are your opening thoughts on the Inquisition?
Fucking cool.
I mean, Eisenhorn trilogy of books is probably one of the peak trilogies of books, if not
the peak trilogy of books, 440k.
Whenever anybody recommends books, it's even if they're not playing the game, it's usually
Eisenhorn.
Raven is really good as well.
And that's another one.

(01:01:24):
And then there's, there's a few others.
Or the Beckwins.
Beckwins ones.
And then you've got some Death Watch ones and some Grey Knights ones.
And obviously, you know, various, various Ordos and all this sort of stuff.
I think it's a really interesting one in the lore because they are lore unto themselves,
basically.
And they sort of exist on this upper echelon, like above the normal hierarchy of the Imperium.

(01:01:50):
And they basically just got free reign to do what the fuck they like to an extent.
And it's what I love, and I know you're a huge fan of this as well, is just the sheer
fear that they put in the heart of Imperial citizens and probably other people like Xenos
and Chaos, etc.
But like they, if people see an Inquisitorial Rosette, they probably shit their pants.

(01:02:15):
You know for a fact that you are probably going to be, you know, absolutely tortured
to death or turn into a servitor or just, you know, sent on the black ships or theosite
or whatever it is, you know.
Or, you know, your world may be eradicated from the face of the map.
What I find fascinating is they're actually rarer than Space Marines in the galaxy, right?

(01:02:37):
Like they're incredibly rare, yet they have this almost like SS-like reputation of being
everywhere at once.
You know, they've got Inquisitorial agents everywhere that can relay information to all
of the Ordos.
And what's so interesting is like, the lore of the 40k setting has so much detail about
everything, right?

(01:02:58):
But the foundation of the Inquisition is shrouded in mystery.
No one knows where they came from.
The rumors are that they were obviously Malkador's sort of project, which makes sense considering
like a lot of Malkador's sticky fingers in pies and what he was all about, which was
the sneaky underhand of the Emperor, you know, to achieve the Emperor's goals without becoming

(01:03:21):
aversive, if that makes sense, right?
But the origin story of the actual Inquisition itself is kind of shrouded in mystery, but
all we know now from a modern perspective is what they are capable of today.
And being an Imperial agent in that regard would probably be the most power trip thing
ever.
To have to have all of that resource at your disposal, right?

(01:03:44):
And to be able to like be judge, jury and executioner to entire sections of space.
I'm not Judge, Judy and Executioner.
Executioner?
He's a chunky monkey.
But like, you know, dude, like, I just cannot imagine if absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I think that's why Inquisitors go off the deep end big time.
There's a lot that have.
There are a lot that have.

(01:04:06):
Well, in particular, the old Inquisitor Kripman that decided to like, you know, eradicate,
I think it was him that decided to eradicate worlds in order to stop Tyrannids advances
and stuff like that, right?
Or to, you know, watch Tyrannids versus Orcs smash each other up and then create like an
infinite loop of death.
That was a cool idea though, to be fair.
It's also things like, you know, the Inquisitors sort of like gained a powerful chaotic artifact

(01:04:33):
and they know the dangers of using it, but they also know the good they can do by using
it.
So you kind of get into that dangerous territory of like, do we use it?
It's classic One Ring Syndrome.
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It's classic One Ring Syndrome.
Do I use it?
Yeah, yeah.
Forgotten all.
Within your puritanical Inquisitor versus your heretical Inquisitors, right?

(01:04:56):
And like, you know, and what is so interesting is the division internally, right?
Where it's this big political power structure between all of these hypo-ego maniacs, like
running the galaxy behind closed doors, where it's not really the Council of Terror at all.
It's these fucking Inquisitor fucks that are running everything and like, you know, the
amount of power and clout that they have at their disposal is wild.

(01:05:19):
Yeah, it is.
Absolutely wild.
There we go.
Also, the fact you've got the three subsections of Malleus, Hereticus and...
Xenos.
Xenos.
Yeah.
What is your favourite security?
Xenos.
Is it?
I like the Death Watch because I just love Death Watch.
I just think they're very much a Game of Thrones sort of like, you know, up at the wall kind

(01:05:42):
of thing for me, where like the long vigil...
Because obviously in Game of Thrones that used to be a lot more seen as like an honourable
thing and people used to send a lot more people to the wall.
Whereas nowadays it's all like criminals and rapists and random shit like that and it's
just sort of the dregs of society.
The Death Watch is an interesting one.
They're the elite of the elite, right?

(01:06:03):
They're like the best space marines from whichever chapters they're drawn from and they go there
for whatever reason and they just are awesome and a lot of unique personalities and that
sort of stuff to them, which I like.
And yet depending on the chapter of origin can be wildly viewed in completely different

(01:06:24):
ways.
Like the Death Watch can take its tide on all of the chapters of space marines at any
point in time, right?
Where you've got to answer the call, right?
But like, depending on your chapter will depend on how that is like responded to in as much
as like, you know, your classic Codex, you know, compliant chapters like your ultramarines

(01:06:44):
and Imperial Fists or your straight bowlers.
Maybe like, this is great honour, let's go.
But then your more secretive or shameful chapters like your Dark Angels, your Flesh Terrors,
your Space Wolves to some degree would be a bit more like, do you know what I mean?
Like this is going to be hard.
It's interesting that they have to work together and like, if you've ever read any of the Death

(01:07:07):
Watch books, it's really interesting like how they work together and how there is like
sometimes this like underlying animosity between the chapters, etc.
Where they're a little bit like, you know, yeah, but they kind of have to put that aside
and work together for the greater good and for the cause, you know, but it's interesting

(01:07:28):
to see that.
And it's also interesting to see that adaptation of fighting styles, because obviously they
did it really well in 9th edition and I really wish they'd fucking do it back to how it was.
You used obviously when we had like chapter, what were they chapter tactics or whatever
they were called, like the actual sort of each chapter had its own bonus rather than

(01:07:49):
necessarily where we are now where you've got Gladius that can be applied to whatever.
Obviously, that's fine.
I know we've moved on from that, but it was really cool because what you could do was
you could be running a Death Watch force and then you could suddenly just give a unit like
the Army rule for ultramarines or Imperial Fists or Space Wolves or Blood Angels, whatever.
And it was super cool how you could just be like, right, we're going to suddenly be like

(01:08:11):
advancing and charging this turn.
In many ways, it was quite glad you see in the way it played, but very fun.
So I kind of missed it.
It gave you quite a diversity as well, right?
Yeah.
I mean, the reason I got into them is because I couldn't make my fucking mind up as to which
chapter I wanted to play.
And then I was like, why don't I just play all of them?
No, that's fair.
I mean, coming from a Dark Angel perspective, it's fascinating when you get a Dark Angel

(01:08:33):
and a Space Wolf on the same kill team, right?
Because they want to duel each other the same way, like they always do.
And it's just like, lol, like, get that together.
The Grey Knights as well.
What do you think?
Ah, see, I'm a Malius boy.
I'm a Malus boy, like Malius, Malus.
They're my favourite.
I love the Grey Knights.
And of course I love the Sisters for Hereticus as well.

(01:08:53):
But I love how the Inquisition is so broad that you don't have to be one of these just
rare Inquisitors to have a dip into that world, because you've got three factions there.
You've got the Grey Knights, the Sisters of Battle and the Death Watch, right?
As well as all the other elements of Imperial Citizenry and being like...

(01:09:18):
Because it's more of agents and stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
It's so diverse and like, oh shit, a brick, man.
And I do love, again, the Eurocentric influence that obviously this hobby has.
Witch hunters and all this sort of stuff.
Well, yeah, but also World War II reference, right?

(01:09:40):
And the fact that it is all about that SS Gestapo-y vibe.
Yeah.
I mean, if you see a Grey Knight, you're basically, as an Imperial Citizen, good luck, because
you basically get termed an artist.
Months of shame, as we've previously discussed.
And it's horrifying.

(01:10:01):
It's genuinely, genuinely horrifying.
And it's one of the things, and I'd say this all the time, as an Imperial apologist.
I find it really hard to justify the Inquisition out of everything, where on one hand, I kind
of get it, because chaos is internally corruptible and quite a cool aid, as I've personally found

(01:10:26):
out over the last...
Bad boy.
I know, I feel terrible.
I need to repent.
But like...
A bit of slob flagellation.
You kind of need a secret police kind of thing to keep the Imperial Citizen industry in line
across millions of worlds.
Of course you do, yeah.
And trillions of human beings, right?

(01:10:48):
You kind of need that in a fucked up kind of way, but it doesn't give humanity the best
look in the world, right?
No.
And it's interesting, because it's like, a lot of the time, there's a huge amount of
crime that goes on in the 41st millennium, and it's really hard to get on top of that.
Obviously, they've got their own sort of RBT's and police, etc. that are on the world.

(01:11:09):
And they...
You've judged dreads.
Yeah, they fucking judged dreads.
That's so cool, aren't they?
So cool.
That sort of thing exists, but the Inquisit is just right above that.
They're only interested in the really spicy shit.
They're only interested in like a gene stealer uprising for the Xenos, or like a heretical
cult that's gathering in the underworld.
Or an artifact that could end worlds.

(01:11:33):
Yeah, exactly.
This sort of shit.
They're in for the big money, you know?
And it's just great that the Imperium has that arm to flex, and that it is just this
sort of untouchable monster that's just lurking in the shadows of the Imperium.
I just love that aspect of it.
They are the most badass motherfuckers ever.
They're kind of like James Bond times a thousand.

(01:11:54):
They have that strutty, enter a room, like a peacock vibe.
Yeah.
It's like, don't fuck with me.
You can walk in as an Inquisitor to the room, and there's a custodian and a space marine,
and you're the biggest motherfucker in that room.
Oh yeah.
Even though you're the tiniest.
You're human.
You're human, but your theory is absolute.

(01:12:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, when you can order Grey Knights around.
Yeah, yeah.
Interesting.
You know what I mean?
Like, old custodias.
Like, that's it now.
That's it now.
Yeah.
But like, I don't know, man.
It's fascinating.
It is a really interesting one.
I love them.
I do.
I think they...
They've got some cool models as well over the years.
I think, obviously, we just had that one for Warhammer Plus, which I just got the other

(01:12:37):
day actually.
Oh, nice.
Which is cool.
And then they had the one that I really love is the guy...
I can't remember where we got him from.
He was like a special one, but it's the dude stabbing the book.
Oh, he was great.
Flames coming out.
He was the star.
I've got him.
I've got him.
I've got all these fucking models in this game.
Sorry.
My Inquisit is called Inquisit Harkonnen.
Like, because of the old Harkonnen family from June.

(01:12:58):
But yeah, when he's like stabbing the book.
Yeah.
So cool.
So nice.
That's one of the best Gw's.
More of that, please.
Oh, you've just made me think I want to paint him with my Blanche set.
Oh my gosh.
Oh, you should.
And you should do his fire the same as the one you do on your World Eaters.
So it's like their book.
Yeah, there you go.
That's the money shot right there.
Wow.
Definitely leaking now.

(01:13:19):
I've also got a Jokero for his retinue and everything.
Yeah.
Do you know, I'm a bit pissed off with Games Workshop that they've kind of shat on the
Inquisitorial Agents retinue because you used to be able to take things like Jokeros.
You used to take old, what was his name?

(01:13:40):
The one in Eisenhall, the like demonifuge thing.
What was it called?
Oh, the demon hosts.
Yeah, the demon hosts and stuff.
And they've got their shit canned it all now and it's rubbish.
I'm just like, like, it's cool.
I love the Inquisitorial Agents.
Make a proper narrative book.
Yeah, I like the Kill Team.
Don't get me wrong.
It's cool that they've got like a servitor and they've got these different guys.

(01:14:01):
They've got like the lunatic with a massive two handed chainsword and all that sort of
shit.
Really cool.
We need another one of those with all the spicy shit in it.
Make us a new Jokero.
Make us a new...
I love that Jokero mini.
Literally, the demonifuge thing.
Yeah, those things.
That's the sort of stuff that I see when I'm thinking about Inquisitors.
I want all that like...
True Braille.
Yeah, he's so cool.

(01:14:21):
He is cool.
He's the best battler.
He is.
Yeah, very much so.
But like, let us know your favourite Inquisitors.
Yes, let us know.
I mean, I would be so corrupted by power if I was an Inquisitor.
You would, wouldn't you?
I feel like you'd be like, you'd come out and you'd be like, really, you're a good boy
for about 10 minutes and then you'd just be like falling into heresy.

(01:14:43):
Yeah, oh God.
And then you'd be like, especially me with how you've seen me at an axe now.
Now, the old world, I'm now like clawing to the eight-pointed star in the sky being a
beastman.
It's like, it's madness.
I could see myself as like a Xenos Inquisitor and have like, I'd be like a little...
You'd be so cruel.
You'd have like your specimens in jazz.

(01:15:03):
Yeah, 100%.
You'd be like, this like cute towel and like a thing and you'd be like, and he's just like,
kill me.
And you'd be like, look at this.
The Death Watch have access to an enhancement called the Thief of Secrets and the lore for
it is super cool.
It's basically like a power sword that like absorbs the sort of new, the vital essence

(01:15:24):
of whatever it's...
Juices.
Yeah, of whatever, like DNA level stuff of whatever it's like hitting.
And basically it sort of like takes it in and analyzes it all and basically figures
out weaknesses.
So like it can, it can, you know, poison them next time it hits them or it can like, you
know, bring up a chemical that's going to like arsenic for humans.
It's that sort of level of stuff where it will sort of figure it out and then you can

(01:15:47):
just turn it against them and absolutely destroy them.
And in the game, it works in exactly the same way, which is super fucking cool.
So it gives you like plus one strength, plus one AP, plus one damage or something like
that.
And then once you've killed a model, you get plus two for all of those.
So it actually makes sense from a lore perspective as well.
So it's fucking cool.
I just love how they look as well.
They all tend to have like edge lordy long coats and just, and the women in Chris is

(01:16:13):
so cool.
Yeah.
So they just look like fucking bad bitches.
Yeah, they do.
Gray Facts looks like the demon hunter from Diablo 3, like the female version.
Yeah.
She's got the crossbows and stuff.
Super cool.
Very like witch huntery and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah.

(01:16:33):
Chris is a shit.
They are.
They are one of the coolest things about 40K.
I would go on record.
I would say, say I would agree.
I just want more more Eisen horny style books.
I'm Eisen horny for that shit.
Eisen horny for Eisen Horny.
Well, you need to read the Beckwins as well.
I will.
That's on my agenda.
I need to.
I've read the others.
I've read Ravenna and I've read Eisenhorn.

(01:16:55):
So that's next.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
That was cool.
That was interesting today.
Yeah.
It's been a fun episode.
We've had a lot to talk about.
We went to some interesting places.
We did.
But yeah, let us know your thoughts on anything that we discussed today.
Fascinating.
And obviously, don't be a dick to any of the people that we may have mentioned and the whole
like cheating thing is.

(01:17:15):
Keep it civil.
Keep it civil, please.
It's just nice to have open and frank conversations about the community and about like not being
a twat in the lobby and stuff like that.
But please join our Discord.
We get new members every day, which is lush.
We do.
And you know, all the space with jokes aside, it's great to be on there.
Yeah, we're slowly growing.
It's nice to be building this wonderful little community with you all.

(01:17:36):
It's been good fun.
Absolutely.
Genuinely lovely.
Enjoying it.
And you know, I braved the leaky assholes of EHIT.
You did.
You haven't shit yourself that I've known about.
At least I didn't hear any cheating.
So that's really good.
You've done well, Russ.
You've held it in.
Brilliant.
Go see.
Well, thanks all of you for listening.
And thank you, my wonderful co-host.

(01:17:56):
Yeah.
Thank you, my wonderful co-host.
Indeed.
See you next time, everybody.
Ciao.
Ciao.
Ciao.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 37: Should Cheaters Be Given A Second Chance In Warhammer 40k?

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Episode 37: Should Cheaters Be Given A Second Chance In Warhammer 40k?

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