January 15, 2025 • 42 mins
This week, we’re joined by the incredible Dr. Marnie Feuerman, a renowned couples therapist and author of Ghosted and Breadcrumbed. Together, we tackle the heart-wrenching question so many face: Should I stay in this relationship or should I leave? Dr. Marnie shares her wisdom on navigating divorce ambivalence, emotional disconnection, and the power of discernment counseling to find clarity and confidence. Are you in a “gray divorce” phase or just questioning your connection? The insights Dr. Marni Feuerman shares can help you move forward with intention.
We talk about the importance of emotional availability, how systemic understanding can transform relational dynamics, and why some relationships struggle during midlife transitions. Dr. Marnie also unpacks the nuances of attachment styles and how they shape the way couples connect or disconnect. Don’t miss this candid and compassionate conversation that may just help you find the clarity you’ve been searching for.
Episode Highlights:
[00:02] - Introducing Dr. Marnie Feuerman and her expertise in relationship counseling.
[01:56] - Dr. Marnie shares her perspective on why divorce ambivalence is so common and the complexities behind such a monumental decision.
[05:23] - Discussing "gray divorce" and how empty nest syndrome can magnify marital issues.
[08:05] - The impact of menopause and hormonal changes on intimacy and connection in relationships.
[11:39] - Emotional unavailability explained: What it looks like, how it affects relationships, and the role of attachment styles.
[15:55] - Colette reflects on her own experience with emotional disconnection in a marriage.
[20:23] - The "lottery test" question: A surprising way to explore how someone feels about staying in their marriage.
[26:34] - The difference between being “in love” versus experiencing a deeper, companionate love.
[30:48] - Dr. Marnie explains discernment counseling: What it is and how it helps couples clarify their next steps.
[36:30] - Why couples therapy requires at least one “cheerleader” for the relationship to succeed.
[41:22] - Final takeaways: Why seeking professional guidance with a systemic approach is essential when facing relationship crossroads.
Resources:
- Dr. Marni Feuerman’s Website: https://www.drmarnionline.com/
- Dr. Marni Feuerman’s Psychotherapy: https://thetalkingsolution.com/
- Dr. Marni Feuerman’s Book: Ghosted and Breadcrumbed: Stop Falling for Unavailable Men and Get Smart about Healthy Relationships
For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!
If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:02):
Marc, so welcome back, guys. We're here at
insights from the couch, mentalhealth at midlife, with an
amazing friend and therapisttoday that we have for you.
Marnie feuerman, am Ipronouncing it correctly?
Marnie, yes, Dr. Marniefeuerman, and we have a great
episode today, something that somany of us are dealing with.
(00:24):
We're going to be talking aboutthat very difficult question of,
should I stay or should I go?
You know, when you'reconsidering divorce and you are
ambivalent about it, maybe partof you wants it and part of you
doesn't, and how we can helpourselves come to a decision.
Marnie has so many valuableinsights to share. So first of
all, Marnie, before I do yourbio, I just want to say welcome
(00:48):
and thank you for
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (00:50):
being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Colette Fehr (00:54):
We're so excited for this episode. Topic. We need
this topic. Yes, we do. So letme just give you a little
insight. You guys all a littleinsight into Dr Marc practice
and her expertise. She is adistinguished psychotherapist
based in South Florida andrenowned particularly for her
expertise in relationships and alegendary couples therapist. I
(01:18):
feel confident saying that she'salso a clinical supervisor of
other therapists and an author.
So Marnie is frequently soughtafter by popular media for her
expertise. She writes forabout.com and contributes
content to platforms such asHuffington Post very well.com
and the Gottman Institute, andshe also has her own blog. Among
(01:39):
others, she is also the authorof the incredible book, ghosted
and breadcrumbs. I love thattitle. Stop failing for
unavailable men and get smartabout healthy relationships.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (01:56):
Yeah. So which is here? Yeah.
Colette Fehr (01:59):
Okay, great, great. And we will link to the
book in our show notes too, forsure, because it's really a
valuable read. This bookempowers women to break free
from unhealthy relationshippatterns. So for more
information, you can visitMarty's website, the talking
solution.com, and Dr Marnieonline.com, and we will post all
(02:22):
of this in the show notes aswell. But for now, let's dig in
to these juicy topics. And Marc,maybe you could start out by
sharing with us and ourlisteners some of what you often
hear from your clients when theycome in on the fence about
whether to stay married or get adivorce?
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (02:42):
Yeah, it's, um, it's unfortunately, pretty
common. And I think it's one ofthose problems people have when
they are contemplating somethinglike this, and it can leave
people feeling really paralyzed.
And of course, just as thedecision was made to get
married, which is one of themost important decisions you
(03:04):
make in your life, here'sanother extremely important and
gut often gut wrenching decisionif you are thinking about
divorce, and so it is definitelynot A decision that can be taken
lightly, and it really requirespeople to slow down and really
be thorough about what'shappening and what's going on,
(03:28):
and their attempts to resolvethe issues. And of course, reach
out to a professional. It'sprobably one of the best times
to reach out to a professional,and hopefully not when it's too
late, where you're so far gone.
And really that professional isjust being used as the
transitional person, as we callit, but maybe using a therapist
(03:51):
where it because you really arestruggling and you really don't
know what to do, and there isperhaps some room still in your
brain to, you know, to pivot,perhaps back into that
relationship. And that is apossibility so but, you know, we
go through, I'm sure you're, youboth are very familiar with it,
(04:13):
with the concept of cognitivedissonance, you know, which is
certainly what we see so much inthis particular circumstance,
with which just basically meanspeople have these very
conflicting thoughts or thesevery conflicting decisions to
make, or they're considering adecision that actually goes
against their value system. Andfor a lot of people, they got
(04:35):
married and they took bows. Andso what it affects morally,
ethically for people can't bediscounted, right? That people
are really struggling, andthey've got all of this stuff
going on, sometimes evenreligious considerations, and
they're racked with guiltbecause of, you know, the
particular way that they arecommitted to their religion,
(04:57):
children. I mean, there's somany things that. So many layers
to this choice that peoplesometimes get stuck around
making, right
Colette Fehr (05:06):
and I just was working on a little video around
Gray Divorce. And we know thatthe empty nest phase is a huge
time of divorce for so manycouples. Are you seeing a lot of
that in your practice, later inlife, divorces,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (05:24):
yes, you know, the kids leave, and if
people haven't really, you know,fostered their connection and
their romantic relationship, weknow that the microscope is
turned on right then when thekids leave, usually within,
like, a year after they leave,and the dust kind of settles
from that, and then people lookat each other and say, you know,
(05:46):
what are we doing here? And do Ihave something in common with
this person? And kids are afantastic distractor, and so
when that's gone and your rolesshift, it's either going to be a
nice, smooth transition forpeople and welcoming and it's
great, or we have the othergroup of people where they're
just saying, Oh no, like, thisis not what I expected, and it's
(06:08):
not going well,
Laura Bowman (06:10):
and it's, you know, one of the things I see
because I see individualsexclusively, I see the burnt out
pursuer partner very often, Whois very frustrated and stuck
because they have familyconsiderations, moral
considerations, but, but really,they feel like there is no
emotional connection. And it isthose family relationships that
(06:33):
hold them in for far longer thanthey would stay otherwise. And
it was so interesting. We wentto this menopause conference,
and one of these physicians weresaying that really, so much of
this Gray Divorce coincides withwomen's dip and desire, and then
when the sex falls apart, thatit begins to be like the death
(06:53):
now of the connection. I don'tknow if you see that as well.
Yeah, I
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (06:57):
do. I do.
I've definitely had some mencome in and they're really
struggling, because sex is stillimportant, but their bodies are
very different. Women, ourbodies can really betray us. You
know, in those menopause yearsand there's a significant amount
of change. And as you know, sexis one of the most difficult
topics for couples to talkabout, right? So it's really
(07:18):
hard to start up a conversationabout your sex life and your
dissatisfaction with it and whenand what's happening when
couples reach that. And I thinkalso, women can feel some sense
of shame too, because they mayactually want it so they have a
part of their brain that says, Ido want to be physically
intimate with my partner, but mybut my body is not allowing me
(07:41):
to because of those changes. Andthen that leads into which I'm
sure you heard at the menopauseconference, like how hard it is
to get really good help, andwhat the medical world has been
offering women at that phase oflife. And I think there's
definitely a lot to be desired.
So all of these things are, youknow, part of all those layers
(08:04):
that I know we're going to talk
Colette Fehr (08:05):
about, yeah, and also, you know, the
perimenopausal years that startso much earlier, when women
start to experience a shift inhormones as early as the late
30s even, and certainlythroughout the 40s. So all of
this is happening as kids aregetting older, if the kids leave
and you haven't been emotionallyconnected for a long time, all
(08:25):
of a sudden, you're feeling it.
And we know that more than 70%of divorces are initiated by
women. Women, right? Men are notas likely to ask for a divorce.
But to the sex point, sex issuch an important part of our
relationship, and it's not justmany people misunderstand that
as men wanting to get off thisis a primary way that men feel
(08:48):
connected, and not that it's nottrue for women too, but we tend
to really prioritize theemotional connection and feel
most connected throughconversation. So I wonder if
what you see in your practicealso correlates with those
numbers and that trend that Isee in my office. Yeah,
definitely.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (09:10):
I see the same sort of thing reflected. I
also see where women sometimeswill even not even want to be
affectionate. So it bleeds intothat because they're thinking,
if their husbands come over,give them a hug, that you know
that is going to lead to thepressure of sex and and there
just is worried about it too. Soit's something that that's on
(09:33):
their minds, even if it's thepartner that's turning away from
sex, it's on both people'sminds. Just, again, nobody's
really having conversationsabout it, but I think I see more
men who feel more emotionallyconnected through the physical
channel, and so when it allshuts down, it's obviously
hugely problematic for themarriage, right?
Laura Bowman (09:55):
So yeah, I see that same thing, but I have men.
I have a few men right now whoare. Really exhausted in their
marriages, and they're younger,and sex has stopped a while
back. I mean, really, section ofstopped, but sex has stopped a
while ago, and they're burnedout. Is, can you define for us,
(10:16):
like, emotional unavailabilityand like, it can come in the
form of either partner, right?
This is not just men beingemotionally unavailable, okay?
Yes, 100%
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (10:26):
Yeah. So I would kind of broadly put it
into a few different categories.
So sometimes someone'semotionally unavailable because
of something that they're goingthrough in their life, some type
of other crisis. A parent justdied. They just lost their job,
you know, something like that,that maybe has them temporarily
unavailable. And then there'sthe category that I would say is
a more deeper level issue, whereit's more within somebody, where
(10:52):
they're putting up barriers tointimacy, or they turn away from
intimacy and connection. Theyuse a lot of protective
strategies that don't involveturning towards their pop, their
partner for comfort, helpsupport those sorts of things.
And so that would kind of bewhat we would call emotional
unavailability, which is a, youknow, certainly a very broad
(11:15):
term, but usually one personwould have some challenges with
connecting in some way withtheir partner.
Colette Fehr (11:25):
That makes a lot of sense. And so what happens in
a marriage when one partner isemotionally available or more
securely attached and does turnfor comfort and connection and
another partner isn't? Yeah,well,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (11:39):
these things do exist on a continuum.
So if you have somebody who,let's say, they've got some
challenges with being moreemotionally like available and
open, but they are, they're ableto lean into it. If they're with
a more securely attachedpartner, there's a good chance
they're going to gravitate morein that direction. But what we
(12:01):
see is really problematic iswhen one person is secure, we'll
say they're more securelyattached, but they're with a
very severely avoidant partner,and that avoidant partner just
doubles down and maybe doesn'thave insight, isn't willing to
get help, isn't really wantingto look at it, then the other,
(12:23):
the more secure partner, isgoing to become very burnt out,
because they're going to alwayshave that longing for the
connection. So that's what canhappen. But if somebody is more
secure, there's a there's a goodchance that they're going to,
like, pull their partner a bitin that direction. So that's
good news. But as we know, if wehave another, like, more
opposite attachment typestrategy where somebody is very
(12:46):
anxious, then that's another onethat could be super polarizing
as well, and then it's, youknow, it, they just get into
that anxious, avoided trap, soto speak. So Right? But those
things are often what you whatends up going to couples therapy
right? When they have thosesituations where they just they
know they're stuck, they don'treally know why. They know
(13:08):
something's wrong. They say wecan't communicate so they know
something's going on, but maybethey're not so understanding of,
you know, those deeper dynamicsthat certainly a couple's
therapists can see and try tohelp them with but if you've got
somebody who just is going tomaybe not be so open to the
(13:31):
process and not maybe curiousabout their contribution to the
dynamic, unfortunately, itdoesn't often bode well even
when they're in a therapist'soffice. So you do need someone
who at least has willingness.
That's a really good trait, ifat least they're willing and
they're open and they're notsuper defensive about it, you
know,
Colette Fehr (13:53):
yep, being willing is so important. And just to
ground this a little bit innarrative, Marnie, what you just
described is exactly my firstmarriage, and the reason that I
ended up getting divorced. And,you know, there were many issues
to point to, but it wasn'treally our issues. You know, we
had young kids, and the divisionof labor wasn't equal, and our
(14:17):
differences started to emerge.
But the real issue is that my exhusband was not emotionally
available, and I believe if hewere here, he would also
concede, because he has saidthis to me, that he wasn't
emotionally available at thattime. I think he's done a lot of
work and made changes in hiscurrent marriage, but I could
not reach him no matter what Idid, and I did try to pull him
(14:39):
along and engage, and I reallycould almost never get his
authentic self. He did not turnto Me for comfort. He had the
mindset of like, I handle thingson my own, and I'm strong and
silent. And when I would reachto him for comfort, it would be
met with logic. And rationalstrategies and problem solving,
(15:01):
which only made me feel feelmore alienated. And so going
through that for so long, you doget burned out. And if somebody
isn't willing to work on that,or even worse, they don't even
know that's an issue. They'rejust living life the way, I
mean, he was doing what he saw,modeled in his own family and
(15:22):
what he grew up with. So Icouldn't get anywhere, and we
didn't get anywhere even incouples therapy as a result. Oh,
wow, yeah. So I really relate towhat you're saying, and I think
it's so much of what we see youand I working with couples is
that it all comes down toemotional disconnection and
(15:43):
unavailability. It's not theissues, it's not money, it's not
kids, it's getting stuck becauseyou can't connect around the
differences in the issues,right?
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (15:56):
Or you try to talk about it and one person
shuts down, or one personescalates, or both people just
go at it and attack each other.
And we see all of thesedifferent types of patterns,
yeah, that all just result indisconnection.
Laura Bowman (16:12):
I mean, I don't work with couples. I am
wondering, I feel like I'veheard this that like the
anxious, avoidant sort ofsituation is easier to work with
in some ways, because it's sucha classic, you know, that that
has more hope. I mean, am Iright? Am I just, did I make
Colette Fehr (16:30):
that? Yeah, and that's the majority of people
who come in,
Laura Bowman (16:32):
right? But some of the stuff that is really tough,
like, what is where does it get?
Really tough, really tough
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (16:42):
when one or both has a history of trauma,
because then sometimes you couldbe seeing explosiveness, or
you're seeing the extreme endsof the continuum with the
strategy. So someone's not justshutting down, but they could be
stonewalling for days, theanxious person could be
screaming and cussing and all ofthat. So you could see just a
(17:04):
big, a big amount of energy, oron the other side of the
continuum, where we havecouples, where they are both
more avoidance. And so those arethe ones that often say, you
know, they feel like roommates,and there's like, no
conversations, yeah, and there'sno fun, there's there's no
energy, so, right? It's justflat lined. Those are really
(17:29):
challenging to work with aswell.
Colette Fehr (17:31):
So challenging.
And as the therapist in theroom, you know, we're working on
their interactional cycle, andthey come in and there's not
barely even a cycle, the cycleis all just nothing, right? We
sit there the dining dead. Wedon't talk, we don't fight, we
don't talk about anything. We'renot having sex. That is a really
tough dynamic to turn around,for sure.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (17:55):
And their conversations are superficial.
They're extremely superficial.
Colette Fehr (17:58):
Everything's at the surface, so there's no
connection, and there's littleto work with and grab onto. But
as you said, Marnie, there's somany complicated issues about
why people may stay in amarriage even when it's not very
connected or fulfilling,religion, family finances,
social pressure, all of thosethings. So what are some of the
(18:19):
things? Right? Safety, right?
Feeling a sense of security inthe world, for sure. So what are
some of the things people shouldconsider and like, where do you
start if you're in one of theselike, I'm not happy, but I don't
know if I want to leave. Yeah,where
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (18:37):
you start is, you know, as a therapist,
I'll kind of say where I wouldstart, which just might kind of
help know people understand mewith the direction. So my
opening question might besomething like, just tell me
your story. Tell me what'shappened that's gotten you to
this place where you wereseriously thinking about
divorce. I kind of want to blankslate people a little bit with
(18:59):
that, and then I'm kind ofpoking around, because I want to
get an understanding of, youknow, maybe they've tried
something, maybe they've hadmaybe they didn't try couples
therapy, but I find out that thetherapist had zero training in
couples therapy. Maybe theytried therapy with an excellent
(19:19):
couples therapists, and I'mthinking, wow, they really gave
it a try, and they did it for ayear, you know? So I'm wanting
to know all of those things. I'mwanting to know if there are
specific things that havehappened that have been more
along the lines of what we wouldcall an attachment injuries,
meaning something happened like,it, like infidelity or some
(19:42):
other betrayal, or somebody'sabusing substances, something
like that, those sorts ofthings. I'm wanting to
understand. What's happened withthe parenting system. You know,
did they throw all of theirenergy into the kids and
completely. They disregard themarriage, how much are they
considering the kids in thisdecision? Like you said
(20:06):
finances, right? That that's abiggie, because I certainly hear
people that are like, if I ask aquestion, like, which is, which
probably isn't the most fairquestion, but I do ask it, I'll
say, if you won the lotterytoday, I'm gonna give you ten
million what are you doing? I'mgonna go. I'm
Colette Fehr (20:23):
gone. I love that very telling, very telling.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (20:27):
It doesn't mean yeah, they got to do it and
follow through, but at leastit's good information for me to
help them, yeah,
Colette Fehr (20:34):
to see where they are. Yeah, because it tells you,
if they felt totally financiallysecure, if somebody it's like a
no brainer, they'd be out atleast. It gives you a sense of,
like, what they're feelingemotionally about the marriage,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (20:48):
right, right? And then there's always
the love question, but it's muchmore nuanced, okay? Because
people will say, I don't think Ilove them anymore. Okay?
Laura Bowman (21:00):
I love them. I love them, but I not in love
with them. I love that.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (21:04):
I didn't love them. Oh my gosh. That,
like, means, like, nothing,right? Like, what the heck that
mean? Or I know, or sometimesyou'll hear which, I think they
rewrite history. I never didlove them. Yeah,
Laura Bowman (21:15):
I hear that too.
Colette Fehr (21:17):
Like, I don't know that. I've said that about
multiple people. So fulldisclosure, right? So
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (21:25):
I don't know how much like stock I'm
necessarily going to put inthat. I just, but I know I'm
going to be asking a lot morequestions to kind of get a sense
of, again, love what happened?
Are they rewriting history? Wasthere this spark at the
beginning? When was the sparklost? You know, was it right
away? Was it 10 years later? Wasit when the kids were born? So
(21:48):
there's, there's so many thingsthat you're kind of going with
this timeline too, to try toplot out, like, what has
impacted this marriage, and alsothe decisions that people have
made, millions of them along theway, that have all been choice
points. Are you turning towardseach other, or did you continue
(22:08):
to turn away and not necessarilyto find fault? Right? I don't
want, I wouldn't want anyone tocome in and think that there has
to be a good guy or a bad guy.
Because, again, there there's somany strata, strata,
stratifications of you know, thedecision that has led someone to
(22:29):
that particular point. So
Colette Fehr (22:32):
yeah, and Marc, what you're saying about these
questions in particular, I wantto ask if you can share more,
because I think this is reallyimportant for listeners, just
about why the love questionisn't as important as people
think it is. Becauseexperientially, when you're
feeling like I never loved youor I'm not in love with you
anymore, this feels so pivotalto people, but we know as
(22:56):
therapists that it's not reallythe heart of it. So can you shed
a little more light on that.
Yeah,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (23:02):
so I think the question is more about, you
know, what their friendship islike, and if they can count on
each other. I think that isreally, really important. I
think if someone can say yes, Ican really count on this person,
and they are my rock, andthey're the person I go to when
(23:22):
I'm not doing well, or when Iwhen I have a need. That, to me,
sounds like more the definitionof love. And so when I hear I'm
not in love often, what thatdoes mean is that they don't
feel like they can count ontheir partner, they don't feel
like they've been they could goto them and they feel like
(23:42):
they've been really let down,right? And it also, I think,
starts to make that change theway they feel about themselves,
yeah, you know, they feel like,am I not worthy? Am I not
important? Am I not seen in thisrelationship? And so those are
the things that I think arecomponents of that love. And I'm
definitely not looking for whatoften is there at the very
(24:05):
beginning of a relationship, thelust and the limerence and that,
you know, huge amount ofattraction and all that, because
we know that wears off. But whatI am looking for is just that
deeper companionate, love, thatfriendship, yeah, that, you
know, we hold hands through thedark times that we go through,
(24:27):
and sometimes people have let goof each other. And I would say
that's more what I look for
Laura Bowman (24:32):
when you say the thing about, you know, it's
really starting to affect how aperson feels about themselves or
their relationship withthemselves, is that the hinge
point where it's kind of likethis is starting to not be, you
know, the juice is not worth thesqueeze at a point where you are
just not feeling connected toyourself based on the stress of
(24:56):
the relationship.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (24:57):
Yeah, people are feeling that's what.
Then they start to say, I don'tfeel I don't feel loved, also,
not just I'm not sure I lovethis person, but that they don't
feel so loved either.
Colette Fehr (25:09):
And I think that's the most painful experience,
right? That we know. That corequestion from Dr Sue Johnson of
are you there for me? Right? Isthe heart of attachment science,
this is what relationships,mature, healthy relationships
are really about feeling thatyou can turn to your partner in
a time of need and that they'llbe there, and that if you don't
(25:32):
have that sense, you don't feelloved, and then this can start
to affect how much love you feelfor your partner eventually. And
so what you're really trying tohelp people do is suss out when
you say you don't feel in loveanymore or that you never have
what does that really mean?
Right? Let's dig beneath thehood and understand a more
granular definition of that,because it's certainly not about
(25:55):
not having the butterfliesanymore. Almost nobody has that
it's even nature's design forthat not to continue
indefinitely. So really tryingto help people get at what's
happened in the relationship upto this point, that's gotten you
here. Have you been turningtoward each other, and what have
(26:15):
you tried to work on therelationship, if anything,
right? That's really important.
So for listeners, you know, whatdo you want them to take away
or, like, what can be helpful tounderstand about that? Because I
think this is a big thing.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (26:34):
Yeah, so I'd say the most important thing
I could stress to people is, Ithink when they're trying to
figure this out, and they go toa professional they might be
thinking like we have the Madridformula, like they're gonna just
plug in some data and we churnit out. We say yes, divorce, no,
stay, and it's not like that atall. To also kind of quote Dr
(27:00):
Bill Doherty, who has done a lotof research on this and the
divorce question and divorceambivalence, and I've learned a
lot from him, it's more aboutclarity, and it's about
confidence in the decisionyou're going to make. And you
may never, ever feel you'rereaching that 100% certainty
level, but perhaps you've gottena lot more information, and
(27:21):
you've left no stone unturned inmaking the decision. So there
won't be a magic, specific thingwhere you'll get that answer,
but hopefully it will move youin the right direction of
making, again, just one of themost important decisions you're
going to make, and that you havesomebody also holding up a
(27:41):
mirror to you because you'vecontributed as well. And we know
the divorce rate for second andthird marriages is worse. And
people think if they just tradeout a partner, that that's going
to just be the answer, and thenthey're finding that they're
perhaps bringing their samebehavior or trait or something
(28:05):
within themselves into that nextrelationship. And so doing this
work also gives you anopportunity to work on yourself,
because if we're just focusingon your partner, we're not
getting that whole systemic 360degree view. And so that's a big
piece of that as well.
Laura Bowman (28:23):
Yeah, that the way you have work to do, even if you
feel as if you're the securepartner who's really like,
willing and open and it's theother person who's really
contaminated the dynamic, youstill have so much to learn. And
let me just ask both of you,because you do this all the
time. Can we debunk? Like,marriage therapists don't ever
(28:43):
tell couples. Like, hey guys,you should call this. This is a
mess. Like, you don't say it.
Like, how does it really
Colette Fehr (28:51):
someone says that to you, that is not a good
therapist, right? Yeah, right.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (28:57):
Should never tell you what to do with
that.
Colette Fehr (29:00):
Exactly. Never. I think
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (29:03):
people sometimes want that.
Colette Fehr (29:05):
Yes, you know, like that, yeah,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (29:07):
yes. Like they would want you to. And of
course, you're I'm very clearthat that's not what I do. And
some people, I think, aredisappointed by that, because,
again, they're thinking, I'mgoing to tell them, but I
thoroughly explain, like, whatmy job is and what I'm there to
do, but the ultimate decision tostay or go lies with them. And
(29:30):
then I also tell them, it reallylies kind of with one of you,
because it only takes one to,you know, to divorce. You know,
we live in no fault, divorcetimes and whatever. So it really
just takes one to decide thatthe marriage is over, so that
relationship is not going tocontinue if just one person is
wanting to do that. And sothat's also kind of the sad
(29:51):
reality of
Colette Fehr (29:52):
it, too, but it's so interesting because it takes
two people to decide to getmarried, but only one to decide
to get to divorce. And thereality is. When you have
couples where one or both peopleare ambivalent, but particularly
if one is ambivalent, thatperson inherently has more power
in the dynamic. And So Marc,what you're speaking to and with
(30:13):
this process of helping couplesget clarity and feel more
confident in making a decision.
You're describing something veryspecial called discernment
therapy, or discernmentcounseling. And this is sort of
the ambivalence therapy, whenpeople are not sure, because
until both people are willing toroll up their sleeves and lean
(30:36):
in and do the work looking atthemselves, you can't do
traditional couples therapy. Socan you give our listeners a
little insight into discernmentcounseling?
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (30:48):
Sure, so it's for what's called mixed
agenda couples, meaning theirtheir goal for coming in to see
the marriage therapist isperhaps not in alignment,
because one person is stronglyconsidering divorce, or leaning
out, or they both are, and soit's just a short term process
to help them work both togetherand separately. So there's some
(31:10):
one on one time, and thenthere's some time with them
together to make sure they'reexploring all of these, some of
these things that we've touchedon, and a lot of other things,
so that they can make the bestdecision possible. And so it's
just, it's just a process, sothat it just is more refined to
focus on that circumstance.
Because most couples, when theycome to us, that come to couples
(31:32):
therapy, we assume, or we haveto specifically ask, do you both
want to work on this marriage?
Are you both motivated to workon the marriage. And if you get
some hesitancy, or you get I'mnot sure, or you get somebody
maybe reluctant to answer, orthere are certain things that
that are going to signal to you,I've got to back up a bit. I
(31:55):
have to assess much more, and Iperhaps have to bring some
discernment, counseling skillsand some of that process into
this. So it's really juststarting with exactly where
they're at, because if you justlaunch into couples therapy,
you're going to not gaintraction, and it's going to be
really frustrating. So for thetherapist and and for the couple
(32:17):
so you want the truth. What Itell people is I just really
need as much honesty from youboth as possible, and so we'll
have some one on one time, sothat you can really tell me your
thoughts without worrying aboutlike retribution. We can kind of
even keep that confidential forshort term. I get both of their
consent for that, because thisway I'm getting all the details
(32:39):
that I need to then try to offersome kind of plan for them and
some direction to go.
Colette Fehr (32:46):
Yeah, so it's really a focused process. You
and I both do discernmentcounseling. It's it can be a
very helpful and reallynecessary thing, because it's
typically one to five sessionswhere we're just focused on that
clarity and confidence about adecision to either stay together
(33:07):
and give it an all out effort,and, you know, maybe at least
six months of couples therapy,or to call it, because sometimes
we know somebody's already done.
I mean, I joke that a lot oftimes, some one comes to me to
donate their spouse to Goodwill,like, I'm good well, and they're
like, Yeah, this thing out of mycloset. I don't wear it. I don't
(33:29):
want it, right? Like, I'm hereto make a donation, and I want
you to help me make this lesspainful. Yeah? And if we try to
start doing couples therapy withsomebody who's already out and
is just afraid to say it'sactually more damaging to the
other partner and will wasteeveryone's time money and cause
more emotional wounding. So it'sreally an important and it can
(33:53):
be a very valuable thing to do,and a lot of people don't know
about it. So if you're listeningand you're someone who's
struggling in your marriage, youknow you may want to find
somebody who does discernmentcounseling in your area and
really try to get some clarity.
Because I have to also say thatthis is the thing I wish had
(34:14):
been available to me, or that Ihad known about in my first
marriage, because I felt that Imade a rushed, emotional
decision, kind of under duress,and whatever you decide, there's
right. There's no one way to go.
Sometimes relationships need toend, but you want to really walk
around in it and have someonehelp you process it, and know
that, like you said, there's nostone unturned, so that when you
(34:38):
do decide to do this, you feellike you've really examined all
the angles, and even if it'sstill painful, you're sure about
your decision. So things veryvaluable. It is valuable.
Laura Bowman (34:52):
Can I ask about this? Like this? If say, you're
doing, you know, couplesalready, and you're hitting that
roadblock, and you're like, Ithink. One or more of us might
want to be done with this. Sothen when you go into I have a
couple that's actuallyconsidering this right now, and
they want to go intodiscernment. What's the decision
tree after that? It's eithermaybe we don't want to be
(35:14):
together anymore and now we'regoing to begin to wind the
marriage down, or what happens?
They can decide we're going togo full tilt into another course
of marriage therapy or anintensive. What do you recommend
after a discernment process?
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (35:31):
Oh, that's a really good question. So
depending on the outcome, youknow, the three paths are. They
do have an option to not doanything. So there's kind of go
back status quo. Path to wouldbe moving towards separation, or
separation and divorce. And youkind of spend a lot of time
talking about that and what thatlooks like. And because
separation could be half a stepto divorce, separation is
(35:53):
sometimes just to get space andnot be like right on top of each
other and see if you misssomebody. And sometimes that
loosens things up in a way thatalso helps them turn back into
the marriage. So separationcould be different directions.
And then the third path istrying a course of couples
therapy where you're going tostay in it for at least six
(36:15):
months, because we want enoughtime to really see that we can
affect some change. And ifsomebody just does two months
has that same old fight over andover, which, of course, they're
gonna have that same fight, Ican guarantee it. And then they
say, Okay, we're done. And sowe're really trying to prevent
that. We're saying, give us achance, as the therapist, to
work through that fight that youare gonna have for sure. So one
(36:35):
interesting thing that DrDougherty found that I think
makes sense, and I kind of seethis in my practice. If you
don't have at least one leaningin, there's a good chance the
couple therapy really isn'tgoing to take off. You kind of
need that one person who hecalls like, the cheerleader for
the US, you know, thecheerleader for the
relationship. And so if you havetwo that just, you know, still
(37:00):
very ambivalent, both leaningout. There's nobody who's going
to be like, hey, yeah, let's dothis. Let's stick this. Let's
stick with this. Let's see wherewe get. And so that's an
interesting finding. So you doneed at least one person who's
really motivated, and maybe theother one not completely like
detached and out if there's alittle bit of energy that's
(37:23):
workable, but you definitelyneed at least one partner with
enough emotional energy to rollup their sleeves and get in the
trenches and do the work.
Colette Fehr (37:30):
So true. And I think he also found that with
those three paths that onlyabout 10% of people end up
opting to go with the statusquo. We're not going to do
couples therapy, we're not goingto get divorced. Get divorced,
we're just going to, like, leavethings as they are, you know? So
it's so interesting, right,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (37:49):
right? Most people want to do something,
yeah, because
Laura Bowman (37:53):
they're ready. By the time you're getting to
discernment, you're really readyto take a look at what to do,
the status quo doesn't feel good
Colette Fehr (37:59):
anymore. Yeah, and I think the couples therapy
piece is just helping people getinto the right mindset that if
they're gonna do that work, theyare just like you said, Marc,
they're gonna have to be willingto come ready to look at
themselves and work onthemselves, and not just point
the finger at a partner, becausecouples therapy will not be
(38:20):
helpful if you double down onthat stance, and really that
doesn't help anything in lifeperiod, actually,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (38:27):
completely, yes.
Colette Fehr (38:29):
So this is great.
Okay, so we're about to be outof time here, but I want to ask
you before we sign off any kindof final takeaways for our
listeners, if they're in thisposition, or they have friends
in this position that you wanteveryone to take away? Yeah,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (38:45):
first of all, I really have a lot of
compassion for those people,because it's, it is an awful
place to be, you know. So I justwant to validate that, that if
you are in that circumstance,and if you're the kind of person
who is watching even orlistening to a podcast like
this, you're conscientious, andyou're wanting to really explore
(39:08):
this, and you're wanting to getanswers. You're not wanting to
make a rash decision, and so allthat's really good. And I would
say we have a lot moreinformation out there than maybe
we did 510, even 20 years ago,we have a lot more information
about what works in couplestherapy, what makes marriage,
marriages succeed and fail. Wehave a lot more hard science.
(39:30):
And so I would say, don'thesitate to go out and, you
know, educate yourself and workwith a professional that really
understands systems. And bythat, I mean that they
understand relationalinteractions and relationship
dynamics, because that is it'sjust different than individual,
than just working one on onewith somebody who maybe that's
(39:53):
all they've ever done, and theydon't have as much of the
relationship training. So thattraining is important, and you.
Millions of excellent individualcouples therapists. So please
don't misunderstand what I'msaying. But I think even if you
have an individual therapist,you'll want to know that they
have some training in systemstheory and in relationships and
(40:14):
those types of dynamics. Sothat's just going to be
important. Because when, when Ihave a someone coming in, and
let's say, they don't want tocome in with their partner, but
they're contemplating thisquestion. They're thinking about
divorce. I'm going to work withthem one on one, but I'm always
keeping in my head the partner,and you know, what could be
(40:35):
their perspective? And I'mtrying to even ask questions to
elicit that from that individualperson. And of course, I'm
always asking, like, would yourpartner be willing to see a
therapist with you, so this wayyou can get the app the, you
know, the best look ateverything that's going on. And
of course, for understandablereasons, sometimes they say no,
(40:56):
because the partner has no ideaat all that this is what they're
thinking of. So that I, youknow, I totally understand that
side of it. But if you're in thecircumstance where you can
actually go visit a, you know,someone who works with couples,
and in particular, if they dodiscernment work, then I would
say it would it's reallyworthwhile so that you make this
(41:18):
decision, and, you know, withthat confidence and with that
clarity,
Colette Fehr (41:23):
absolutely perfectly said. Thank you so
much, Marnie. This is sohelpful, and we're going to link
to all of these resources andhow you can reach Dr Marnie and
even work with her if you're inthe state of Florida, and we're
just so grateful that you cameon and lent us your time,
(41:43):
because this is something somany people are dealing with. So
thank you to you, and thank youeveryone for listening. We hope
you got some good insights fromthe couch today. Yes, and we
will see you all next time.
Unknown (41:57):
Bye, guys. You
Marc, so welcome back, guys. We're here at
insights from the couch, mentalhealth at midlife, with an
amazing friend and therapisttoday that we have for you.
Marnie feuerman, am Ipronouncing it correctly?
Marnie, yes, Dr. Marniefeuerman, and we have a great
episode today, something that somany of us are dealing with.
(00:24):
We're going to be talking aboutthat very difficult question of,
should I stay or should I go?
You know, when you'reconsidering divorce and you are
ambivalent about it, maybe partof you wants it and part of you
doesn't, and how we can helpourselves come to a decision.
Marnie has so many valuableinsights to share. So first of
all, Marnie, before I do yourbio, I just want to say welcome
(00:48):
and thank you for
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (00:50):
being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Colette Fehr (00:54):
We're so excited for this episode. Topic. We need
this topic. Yes, we do. So letme just give you a little
insight. You guys all a littleinsight into Dr Marc practice
and her expertise. She is adistinguished psychotherapist
based in South Florida andrenowned particularly for her
expertise in relationships and alegendary couples therapist. I
(01:18):
feel confident saying that she'salso a clinical supervisor of
other therapists and an author.
So Marnie is frequently soughtafter by popular media for her
expertise. She writes forabout.com and contributes
content to platforms such asHuffington Post very well.com
and the Gottman Institute, andshe also has her own blog. Among
(01:39):
others, she is also the authorof the incredible book, ghosted
and breadcrumbs. I love thattitle. Stop failing for
unavailable men and get smartabout healthy relationships.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (01:56):
Yeah. So which is here? Yeah.
Colette Fehr (01:59):
Okay, great, great. And we will link to the
book in our show notes too, forsure, because it's really a
valuable read. This bookempowers women to break free
from unhealthy relationshippatterns. So for more
information, you can visitMarty's website, the talking
solution.com, and Dr Marnieonline.com, and we will post all
(02:22):
of this in the show notes aswell. But for now, let's dig in
to these juicy topics. And Marc,maybe you could start out by
sharing with us and ourlisteners some of what you often
hear from your clients when theycome in on the fence about
whether to stay married or get adivorce?
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (02:42):
Yeah, it's, um, it's unfortunately, pretty
common. And I think it's one ofthose problems people have when
they are contemplating somethinglike this, and it can leave
people feeling really paralyzed.
And of course, just as thedecision was made to get
married, which is one of themost important decisions you
(03:04):
make in your life, here'sanother extremely important and
gut often gut wrenching decisionif you are thinking about
divorce, and so it is definitelynot A decision that can be taken
lightly, and it really requirespeople to slow down and really
be thorough about what'shappening and what's going on,
(03:28):
and their attempts to resolvethe issues. And of course, reach
out to a professional. It'sprobably one of the best times
to reach out to a professional,and hopefully not when it's too
late, where you're so far gone.
And really that professional isjust being used as the
transitional person, as we callit, but maybe using a therapist
(03:51):
where it because you really arestruggling and you really don't
know what to do, and there isperhaps some room still in your
brain to, you know, to pivot,perhaps back into that
relationship. And that is apossibility so but, you know, we
go through, I'm sure you're, youboth are very familiar with it,
(04:13):
with the concept of cognitivedissonance, you know, which is
certainly what we see so much inthis particular circumstance,
with which just basically meanspeople have these very
conflicting thoughts or thesevery conflicting decisions to
make, or they're considering adecision that actually goes
against their value system. Andfor a lot of people, they got
(04:35):
married and they took bows. Andso what it affects morally,
ethically for people can't bediscounted, right? That people
are really struggling, andthey've got all of this stuff
going on, sometimes evenreligious considerations, and
they're racked with guiltbecause of, you know, the
particular way that they arecommitted to their religion,
(04:57):
children. I mean, there's somany things that. So many layers
to this choice that peoplesometimes get stuck around
making, right
Colette Fehr (05:06):
and I just was working on a little video around
Gray Divorce. And we know thatthe empty nest phase is a huge
time of divorce for so manycouples. Are you seeing a lot of
that in your practice, later inlife, divorces,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (05:24):
yes, you know, the kids leave, and if
people haven't really, you know,fostered their connection and
their romantic relationship, weknow that the microscope is
turned on right then when thekids leave, usually within,
like, a year after they leave,and the dust kind of settles
from that, and then people lookat each other and say, you know,
(05:46):
what are we doing here? And do Ihave something in common with
this person? And kids are afantastic distractor, and so
when that's gone and your rolesshift, it's either going to be a
nice, smooth transition forpeople and welcoming and it's
great, or we have the othergroup of people where they're
just saying, Oh no, like, thisis not what I expected, and it's
(06:08):
not going well,
Laura Bowman (06:10):
and it's, you know, one of the things I see
because I see individualsexclusively, I see the burnt out
pursuer partner very often, Whois very frustrated and stuck
because they have familyconsiderations, moral
considerations, but, but really,they feel like there is no
emotional connection. And it isthose family relationships that
(06:33):
hold them in for far longer thanthey would stay otherwise. And
it was so interesting. We wentto this menopause conference,
and one of these physicians weresaying that really, so much of
this Gray Divorce coincides withwomen's dip and desire, and then
when the sex falls apart, thatit begins to be like the death
(06:53):
now of the connection. I don'tknow if you see that as well.
Yeah, I
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (06:57):
do. I do.
I've definitely had some mencome in and they're really
struggling, because sex is stillimportant, but their bodies are
very different. Women, ourbodies can really betray us. You
know, in those menopause yearsand there's a significant amount
of change. And as you know, sexis one of the most difficult
topics for couples to talkabout, right? So it's really
(07:18):
hard to start up a conversationabout your sex life and your
dissatisfaction with it and whenand what's happening when
couples reach that. And I thinkalso, women can feel some sense
of shame too, because they mayactually want it so they have a
part of their brain that says, Ido want to be physically
intimate with my partner, but mybut my body is not allowing me
(07:41):
to because of those changes. Andthen that leads into which I'm
sure you heard at the menopauseconference, like how hard it is
to get really good help, andwhat the medical world has been
offering women at that phase oflife. And I think there's
definitely a lot to be desired.
So all of these things are, youknow, part of all those layers
(08:04):
that I know we're going to talk
Colette Fehr (08:05):
about, yeah, and also, you know, the
perimenopausal years that startso much earlier, when women
start to experience a shift inhormones as early as the late
30s even, and certainlythroughout the 40s. So all of
this is happening as kids aregetting older, if the kids leave
and you haven't been emotionallyconnected for a long time, all
(08:25):
of a sudden, you're feeling it.
And we know that more than 70%of divorces are initiated by
women. Women, right? Men are notas likely to ask for a divorce.
But to the sex point, sex issuch an important part of our
relationship, and it's not justmany people misunderstand that
as men wanting to get off thisis a primary way that men feel
(08:48):
connected, and not that it's nottrue for women too, but we tend
to really prioritize theemotional connection and feel
most connected throughconversation. So I wonder if
what you see in your practicealso correlates with those
numbers and that trend that Isee in my office. Yeah,
definitely.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (09:10):
I see the same sort of thing reflected. I
also see where women sometimeswill even not even want to be
affectionate. So it bleeds intothat because they're thinking,
if their husbands come over,give them a hug, that you know
that is going to lead to thepressure of sex and and there
just is worried about it too. Soit's something that that's on
(09:33):
their minds, even if it's thepartner that's turning away from
sex, it's on both people'sminds. Just, again, nobody's
really having conversationsabout it, but I think I see more
men who feel more emotionallyconnected through the physical
channel, and so when it allshuts down, it's obviously
hugely problematic for themarriage, right?
Laura Bowman (09:55):
So yeah, I see that same thing, but I have men.
I have a few men right now whoare. Really exhausted in their
marriages, and they're younger,and sex has stopped a while
back. I mean, really, section ofstopped, but sex has stopped a
while ago, and they're burnedout. Is, can you define for us,
(10:16):
like, emotional unavailabilityand like, it can come in the
form of either partner, right?
This is not just men beingemotionally unavailable, okay?
Yes, 100%
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (10:26):
Yeah. So I would kind of broadly put it
into a few different categories.
So sometimes someone'semotionally unavailable because
of something that they're goingthrough in their life, some type
of other crisis. A parent justdied. They just lost their job,
you know, something like that,that maybe has them temporarily
unavailable. And then there'sthe category that I would say is
a more deeper level issue, whereit's more within somebody, where
(10:52):
they're putting up barriers tointimacy, or they turn away from
intimacy and connection. Theyuse a lot of protective
strategies that don't involveturning towards their pop, their
partner for comfort, helpsupport those sorts of things.
And so that would kind of bewhat we would call emotional
unavailability, which is a, youknow, certainly a very broad
(11:15):
term, but usually one personwould have some challenges with
connecting in some way withtheir partner.
Colette Fehr (11:25):
That makes a lot of sense. And so what happens in
a marriage when one partner isemotionally available or more
securely attached and does turnfor comfort and connection and
another partner isn't? Yeah,well,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (11:39):
these things do exist on a continuum.
So if you have somebody who,let's say, they've got some
challenges with being moreemotionally like available and
open, but they are, they're ableto lean into it. If they're with
a more securely attachedpartner, there's a good chance
they're going to gravitate morein that direction. But what we
(12:01):
see is really problematic iswhen one person is secure, we'll
say they're more securelyattached, but they're with a
very severely avoidant partner,and that avoidant partner just
doubles down and maybe doesn'thave insight, isn't willing to
get help, isn't really wantingto look at it, then the other,
(12:23):
the more secure partner, isgoing to become very burnt out,
because they're going to alwayshave that longing for the
connection. So that's what canhappen. But if somebody is more
secure, there's a there's a goodchance that they're going to,
like, pull their partner a bitin that direction. So that's
good news. But as we know, if wehave another, like, more
opposite attachment typestrategy where somebody is very
(12:46):
anxious, then that's another onethat could be super polarizing
as well, and then it's, youknow, it, they just get into
that anxious, avoided trap, soto speak. So Right? But those
things are often what you whatends up going to couples therapy
right? When they have thosesituations where they just they
know they're stuck, they don'treally know why. They know
(13:08):
something's wrong. They say wecan't communicate so they know
something's going on, but maybethey're not so understanding of,
you know, those deeper dynamicsthat certainly a couple's
therapists can see and try tohelp them with but if you've got
somebody who just is going tomaybe not be so open to the
(13:31):
process and not maybe curiousabout their contribution to the
dynamic, unfortunately, itdoesn't often bode well even
when they're in a therapist'soffice. So you do need someone
who at least has willingness.
That's a really good trait, ifat least they're willing and
they're open and they're notsuper defensive about it, you
know,
Colette Fehr (13:53):
yep, being willing is so important. And just to
ground this a little bit innarrative, Marnie, what you just
described is exactly my firstmarriage, and the reason that I
ended up getting divorced. And,you know, there were many issues
to point to, but it wasn'treally our issues. You know, we
had young kids, and the divisionof labor wasn't equal, and our
(14:17):
differences started to emerge.
But the real issue is that my exhusband was not emotionally
available, and I believe if hewere here, he would also
concede, because he has saidthis to me, that he wasn't
emotionally available at thattime. I think he's done a lot of
work and made changes in hiscurrent marriage, but I could
not reach him no matter what Idid, and I did try to pull him
(14:39):
along and engage, and I reallycould almost never get his
authentic self. He did not turnto Me for comfort. He had the
mindset of like, I handle thingson my own, and I'm strong and
silent. And when I would reachto him for comfort, it would be
met with logic. And rationalstrategies and problem solving,
(15:01):
which only made me feel feelmore alienated. And so going
through that for so long, you doget burned out. And if somebody
isn't willing to work on that,or even worse, they don't even
know that's an issue. They'rejust living life the way, I
mean, he was doing what he saw,modeled in his own family and
(15:22):
what he grew up with. So Icouldn't get anywhere, and we
didn't get anywhere even incouples therapy as a result. Oh,
wow, yeah. So I really relate towhat you're saying, and I think
it's so much of what we see youand I working with couples is
that it all comes down toemotional disconnection and
(15:43):
unavailability. It's not theissues, it's not money, it's not
kids, it's getting stuck becauseyou can't connect around the
differences in the issues,right?
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (15:56):
Or you try to talk about it and one person
shuts down, or one personescalates, or both people just
go at it and attack each other.
And we see all of thesedifferent types of patterns,
yeah, that all just result indisconnection.
Laura Bowman (16:12):
I mean, I don't work with couples. I am
wondering, I feel like I'veheard this that like the
anxious, avoidant sort ofsituation is easier to work with
in some ways, because it's sucha classic, you know, that that
has more hope. I mean, am Iright? Am I just, did I make
Colette Fehr (16:30):
that? Yeah, and that's the majority of people
who come in,
Laura Bowman (16:32):
right? But some of the stuff that is really tough,
like, what is where does it get?
Really tough, really tough
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (16:42):
when one or both has a history of trauma,
because then sometimes you couldbe seeing explosiveness, or
you're seeing the extreme endsof the continuum with the
strategy. So someone's not justshutting down, but they could be
stonewalling for days, theanxious person could be
screaming and cussing and all ofthat. So you could see just a
(17:04):
big, a big amount of energy, oron the other side of the
continuum, where we havecouples, where they are both
more avoidance. And so those arethe ones that often say, you
know, they feel like roommates,and there's like, no
conversations, yeah, and there'sno fun, there's there's no
energy, so, right? It's justflat lined. Those are really
(17:29):
challenging to work with aswell.
Colette Fehr (17:31):
So challenging.
And as the therapist in theroom, you know, we're working on
their interactional cycle, andthey come in and there's not
barely even a cycle, the cycleis all just nothing, right? We
sit there the dining dead. Wedon't talk, we don't fight, we
don't talk about anything. We'renot having sex. That is a really
tough dynamic to turn around,for sure.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (17:55):
And their conversations are superficial.
They're extremely superficial.
Colette Fehr (17:58):
Everything's at the surface, so there's no
connection, and there's littleto work with and grab onto. But
as you said, Marnie, there's somany complicated issues about
why people may stay in amarriage even when it's not very
connected or fulfilling,religion, family finances,
social pressure, all of thosethings. So what are some of the
(18:19):
things? Right? Safety, right?
Feeling a sense of security inthe world, for sure. So what are
some of the things people shouldconsider and like, where do you
start if you're in one of theselike, I'm not happy, but I don't
know if I want to leave. Yeah,where
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (18:37):
you start is, you know, as a therapist,
I'll kind of say where I wouldstart, which just might kind of
help know people understand mewith the direction. So my
opening question might besomething like, just tell me
your story. Tell me what'shappened that's gotten you to
this place where you wereseriously thinking about
divorce. I kind of want to blankslate people a little bit with
(18:59):
that, and then I'm kind ofpoking around, because I want to
get an understanding of, youknow, maybe they've tried
something, maybe they've hadmaybe they didn't try couples
therapy, but I find out that thetherapist had zero training in
couples therapy. Maybe theytried therapy with an excellent
(19:19):
couples therapists, and I'mthinking, wow, they really gave
it a try, and they did it for ayear, you know? So I'm wanting
to know all of those things. I'mwanting to know if there are
specific things that havehappened that have been more
along the lines of what we wouldcall an attachment injuries,
meaning something happened like,it, like infidelity or some
(19:42):
other betrayal, or somebody'sabusing substances, something
like that, those sorts ofthings. I'm wanting to
understand. What's happened withthe parenting system. You know,
did they throw all of theirenergy into the kids and
completely. They disregard themarriage, how much are they
considering the kids in thisdecision? Like you said
(20:06):
finances, right? That that's abiggie, because I certainly hear
people that are like, if I ask aquestion, like, which is, which
probably isn't the most fairquestion, but I do ask it, I'll
say, if you won the lotterytoday, I'm gonna give you ten
million what are you doing? I'mgonna go. I'm
Colette Fehr (20:23):
gone. I love that very telling, very telling.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (20:27):
It doesn't mean yeah, they got to do it and
follow through, but at leastit's good information for me to
help them, yeah,
Colette Fehr (20:34):
to see where they are. Yeah, because it tells you,
if they felt totally financiallysecure, if somebody it's like a
no brainer, they'd be out atleast. It gives you a sense of,
like, what they're feelingemotionally about the marriage,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (20:48):
right, right? And then there's always
the love question, but it's muchmore nuanced, okay? Because
people will say, I don't think Ilove them anymore. Okay?
Laura Bowman (21:00):
I love them. I love them, but I not in love
with them. I love that.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (21:04):
I didn't love them. Oh my gosh. That,
like, means, like, nothing,right? Like, what the heck that
mean? Or I know, or sometimesyou'll hear which, I think they
rewrite history. I never didlove them. Yeah,
Laura Bowman (21:15):
I hear that too.
Colette Fehr (21:17):
Like, I don't know that. I've said that about
multiple people. So fulldisclosure, right? So
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (21:25):
I don't know how much like stock I'm
necessarily going to put inthat. I just, but I know I'm
going to be asking a lot morequestions to kind of get a sense
of, again, love what happened?
Are they rewriting history? Wasthere this spark at the
beginning? When was the sparklost? You know, was it right
away? Was it 10 years later? Wasit when the kids were born? So
(21:48):
there's, there's so many thingsthat you're kind of going with
this timeline too, to try toplot out, like, what has
impacted this marriage, and alsothe decisions that people have
made, millions of them along theway, that have all been choice
points. Are you turning towardseach other, or did you continue
(22:08):
to turn away and not necessarilyto find fault? Right? I don't
want, I wouldn't want anyone tocome in and think that there has
to be a good guy or a bad guy.
Because, again, there there's somany strata, strata,
stratifications of you know, thedecision that has led someone to
(22:29):
that particular point. So
Colette Fehr (22:32):
yeah, and Marc, what you're saying about these
questions in particular, I wantto ask if you can share more,
because I think this is reallyimportant for listeners, just
about why the love questionisn't as important as people
think it is. Becauseexperientially, when you're
feeling like I never loved youor I'm not in love with you
anymore, this feels so pivotalto people, but we know as
(22:56):
therapists that it's not reallythe heart of it. So can you shed
a little more light on that.
Yeah,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (23:02):
so I think the question is more about, you
know, what their friendship islike, and if they can count on
each other. I think that isreally, really important. I
think if someone can say yes, Ican really count on this person,
and they are my rock, andthey're the person I go to when
(23:22):
I'm not doing well, or when Iwhen I have a need. That, to me,
sounds like more the definitionof love. And so when I hear I'm
not in love often, what thatdoes mean is that they don't
feel like they can count ontheir partner, they don't feel
like they've been they could goto them and they feel like
(23:42):
they've been really let down,right? And it also, I think,
starts to make that change theway they feel about themselves,
yeah, you know, they feel like,am I not worthy? Am I not
important? Am I not seen in thisrelationship? And so those are
the things that I think arecomponents of that love. And I'm
definitely not looking for whatoften is there at the very
(24:05):
beginning of a relationship, thelust and the limerence and that,
you know, huge amount ofattraction and all that, because
we know that wears off. But whatI am looking for is just that
deeper companionate, love, thatfriendship, yeah, that, you
know, we hold hands through thedark times that we go through,
(24:27):
and sometimes people have let goof each other. And I would say
that's more what I look for
Laura Bowman (24:32):
when you say the thing about, you know, it's
really starting to affect how aperson feels about themselves or
their relationship withthemselves, is that the hinge
point where it's kind of likethis is starting to not be, you
know, the juice is not worth thesqueeze at a point where you are
just not feeling connected toyourself based on the stress of
(24:56):
the relationship.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (24:57):
Yeah, people are feeling that's what.
Then they start to say, I don'tfeel I don't feel loved, also,
not just I'm not sure I lovethis person, but that they don't
feel so loved either.
Colette Fehr (25:09):
And I think that's the most painful experience,
right? That we know. That corequestion from Dr Sue Johnson of
are you there for me? Right? Isthe heart of attachment science,
this is what relationships,mature, healthy relationships
are really about feeling thatyou can turn to your partner in
a time of need and that they'llbe there, and that if you don't
(25:32):
have that sense, you don't feelloved, and then this can start
to affect how much love you feelfor your partner eventually. And
so what you're really trying tohelp people do is suss out when
you say you don't feel in loveanymore or that you never have
what does that really mean?
Right? Let's dig beneath thehood and understand a more
granular definition of that,because it's certainly not about
(25:55):
not having the butterfliesanymore. Almost nobody has that
it's even nature's design forthat not to continue
indefinitely. So really tryingto help people get at what's
happened in the relationship upto this point, that's gotten you
here. Have you been turningtoward each other, and what have
(26:15):
you tried to work on therelationship, if anything,
right? That's really important.
So for listeners, you know, whatdo you want them to take away
or, like, what can be helpful tounderstand about that? Because I
think this is a big thing.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (26:34):
Yeah, so I'd say the most important thing
I could stress to people is, Ithink when they're trying to
figure this out, and they go toa professional they might be
thinking like we have the Madridformula, like they're gonna just
plug in some data and we churnit out. We say yes, divorce, no,
stay, and it's not like that atall. To also kind of quote Dr
(27:00):
Bill Doherty, who has done a lotof research on this and the
divorce question and divorceambivalence, and I've learned a
lot from him, it's more aboutclarity, and it's about
confidence in the decisionyou're going to make. And you
may never, ever feel you'rereaching that 100% certainty
level, but perhaps you've gottena lot more information, and
(27:21):
you've left no stone unturned inmaking the decision. So there
won't be a magic, specific thingwhere you'll get that answer,
but hopefully it will move youin the right direction of
making, again, just one of themost important decisions you're
going to make, and that you havesomebody also holding up a
(27:41):
mirror to you because you'vecontributed as well. And we know
the divorce rate for second andthird marriages is worse. And
people think if they just tradeout a partner, that that's going
to just be the answer, and thenthey're finding that they're
perhaps bringing their samebehavior or trait or something
(28:05):
within themselves into that nextrelationship. And so doing this
work also gives you anopportunity to work on yourself,
because if we're just focusingon your partner, we're not
getting that whole systemic 360degree view. And so that's a big
piece of that as well.
Laura Bowman (28:23):
Yeah, that the way you have work to do, even if you
feel as if you're the securepartner who's really like,
willing and open and it's theother person who's really
contaminated the dynamic, youstill have so much to learn. And
let me just ask both of you,because you do this all the
time. Can we debunk? Like,marriage therapists don't ever
(28:43):
tell couples. Like, hey guys,you should call this. This is a
mess. Like, you don't say it.
Like, how does it really
Colette Fehr (28:51):
someone says that to you, that is not a good
therapist, right? Yeah, right.
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (28:57):
Should never tell you what to do with
that.
Colette Fehr (29:00):
Exactly. Never. I think
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (29:03):
people sometimes want that.
Colette Fehr (29:05):
Yes, you know, like that, yeah,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (29:07):
yes. Like they would want you to. And of
course, you're I'm very clearthat that's not what I do. And
some people, I think, aredisappointed by that, because,
again, they're thinking, I'mgoing to tell them, but I
thoroughly explain, like, whatmy job is and what I'm there to
do, but the ultimate decision tostay or go lies with them. And
(29:30):
then I also tell them, it reallylies kind of with one of you,
because it only takes one to,you know, to divorce. You know,
we live in no fault, divorcetimes and whatever. So it really
just takes one to decide thatthe marriage is over, so that
relationship is not going tocontinue if just one person is
wanting to do that. And sothat's also kind of the sad
(29:51):
reality of
Colette Fehr (29:52):
it, too, but it's so interesting because it takes
two people to decide to getmarried, but only one to decide
to get to divorce. And thereality is. When you have
couples where one or both peopleare ambivalent, but particularly
if one is ambivalent, thatperson inherently has more power
in the dynamic. And So Marc,what you're speaking to and with
(30:13):
this process of helping couplesget clarity and feel more
confident in making a decision.
You're describing something veryspecial called discernment
therapy, or discernmentcounseling. And this is sort of
the ambivalence therapy, whenpeople are not sure, because
until both people are willing toroll up their sleeves and lean
(30:36):
in and do the work looking atthemselves, you can't do
traditional couples therapy. Socan you give our listeners a
little insight into discernmentcounseling?
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (30:48):
Sure, so it's for what's called mixed
agenda couples, meaning theirtheir goal for coming in to see
the marriage therapist isperhaps not in alignment,
because one person is stronglyconsidering divorce, or leaning
out, or they both are, and soit's just a short term process
to help them work both togetherand separately. So there's some
(31:10):
one on one time, and thenthere's some time with them
together to make sure they'reexploring all of these, some of
these things that we've touchedon, and a lot of other things,
so that they can make the bestdecision possible. And so it's
just, it's just a process, sothat it just is more refined to
focus on that circumstance.
Because most couples, when theycome to us, that come to couples
(31:32):
therapy, we assume, or we haveto specifically ask, do you both
want to work on this marriage?
Are you both motivated to workon the marriage. And if you get
some hesitancy, or you get I'mnot sure, or you get somebody
maybe reluctant to answer, orthere are certain things that
that are going to signal to you,I've got to back up a bit. I
(31:55):
have to assess much more, and Iperhaps have to bring some
discernment, counseling skillsand some of that process into
this. So it's really juststarting with exactly where
they're at, because if you justlaunch into couples therapy,
you're going to not gaintraction, and it's going to be
really frustrating. So for thetherapist and and for the couple
(32:17):
so you want the truth. What Itell people is I just really
need as much honesty from youboth as possible, and so we'll
have some one on one time, sothat you can really tell me your
thoughts without worrying aboutlike retribution. We can kind of
even keep that confidential forshort term. I get both of their
consent for that, because thisway I'm getting all the details
(32:39):
that I need to then try to offersome kind of plan for them and
some direction to go.
Colette Fehr (32:46):
Yeah, so it's really a focused process. You
and I both do discernmentcounseling. It's it can be a
very helpful and reallynecessary thing, because it's
typically one to five sessionswhere we're just focused on that
clarity and confidence about adecision to either stay together
(33:07):
and give it an all out effort,and, you know, maybe at least
six months of couples therapy,or to call it, because sometimes
we know somebody's already done.
I mean, I joke that a lot oftimes, some one comes to me to
donate their spouse to Goodwill,like, I'm good well, and they're
like, Yeah, this thing out of mycloset. I don't wear it. I don't
(33:29):
want it, right? Like, I'm hereto make a donation, and I want
you to help me make this lesspainful. Yeah? And if we try to
start doing couples therapy withsomebody who's already out and
is just afraid to say it'sactually more damaging to the
other partner and will wasteeveryone's time money and cause
more emotional wounding. So it'sreally an important and it can
(33:53):
be a very valuable thing to do,and a lot of people don't know
about it. So if you're listeningand you're someone who's
struggling in your marriage, youknow you may want to find
somebody who does discernmentcounseling in your area and
really try to get some clarity.
Because I have to also say thatthis is the thing I wish had
(34:14):
been available to me, or that Ihad known about in my first
marriage, because I felt that Imade a rushed, emotional
decision, kind of under duress,and whatever you decide, there's
right. There's no one way to go.
Sometimes relationships need toend, but you want to really walk
around in it and have someonehelp you process it, and know
that, like you said, there's nostone unturned, so that when you
(34:38):
do decide to do this, you feellike you've really examined all
the angles, and even if it'sstill painful, you're sure about
your decision. So things veryvaluable. It is valuable.
Laura Bowman (34:52):
Can I ask about this? Like this? If say, you're
doing, you know, couplesalready, and you're hitting that
roadblock, and you're like, Ithink. One or more of us might
want to be done with this. Sothen when you go into I have a
couple that's actuallyconsidering this right now, and
they want to go intodiscernment. What's the decision
tree after that? It's eithermaybe we don't want to be
(35:14):
together anymore and now we'regoing to begin to wind the
marriage down, or what happens?
They can decide we're going togo full tilt into another course
of marriage therapy or anintensive. What do you recommend
after a discernment process?
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (35:31):
Oh, that's a really good question. So
depending on the outcome, youknow, the three paths are. They
do have an option to not doanything. So there's kind of go
back status quo. Path to wouldbe moving towards separation, or
separation and divorce. And youkind of spend a lot of time
talking about that and what thatlooks like. And because
separation could be half a stepto divorce, separation is
(35:53):
sometimes just to get space andnot be like right on top of each
other and see if you misssomebody. And sometimes that
loosens things up in a way thatalso helps them turn back into
the marriage. So separationcould be different directions.
And then the third path istrying a course of couples
therapy where you're going tostay in it for at least six
(36:15):
months, because we want enoughtime to really see that we can
affect some change. And ifsomebody just does two months
has that same old fight over andover, which, of course, they're
gonna have that same fight, Ican guarantee it. And then they
say, Okay, we're done. And sowe're really trying to prevent
that. We're saying, give us achance, as the therapist, to
work through that fight that youare gonna have for sure. So one
(36:35):
interesting thing that DrDougherty found that I think
makes sense, and I kind of seethis in my practice. If you
don't have at least one leaningin, there's a good chance the
couple therapy really isn'tgoing to take off. You kind of
need that one person who hecalls like, the cheerleader for
the US, you know, thecheerleader for the
relationship. And so if you havetwo that just, you know, still
(37:00):
very ambivalent, both leaningout. There's nobody who's going
to be like, hey, yeah, let's dothis. Let's stick this. Let's
stick with this. Let's see wherewe get. And so that's an
interesting finding. So you doneed at least one person who's
really motivated, and maybe theother one not completely like
detached and out if there's alittle bit of energy that's
(37:23):
workable, but you definitelyneed at least one partner with
enough emotional energy to rollup their sleeves and get in the
trenches and do the work.
Colette Fehr (37:30):
So true. And I think he also found that with
those three paths that onlyabout 10% of people end up
opting to go with the statusquo. We're not going to do
couples therapy, we're not goingto get divorced. Get divorced,
we're just going to, like, leavethings as they are, you know? So
it's so interesting, right,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (37:49):
right? Most people want to do something,
yeah, because
Laura Bowman (37:53):
they're ready. By the time you're getting to
discernment, you're really readyto take a look at what to do,
the status quo doesn't feel good
Colette Fehr (37:59):
anymore. Yeah, and I think the couples therapy
piece is just helping people getinto the right mindset that if
they're gonna do that work, theyare just like you said, Marc,
they're gonna have to be willingto come ready to look at
themselves and work onthemselves, and not just point
the finger at a partner, becausecouples therapy will not be
(38:20):
helpful if you double down onthat stance, and really that
doesn't help anything in lifeperiod, actually,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (38:27):
completely, yes.
Colette Fehr (38:29):
So this is great.
Okay, so we're about to be outof time here, but I want to ask
you before we sign off any kindof final takeaways for our
listeners, if they're in thisposition, or they have friends
in this position that you wanteveryone to take away? Yeah,
Dr. Marnie Feuerman (38:45):
first of all, I really have a lot of
compassion for those people,because it's, it is an awful
place to be, you know. So I justwant to validate that, that if
you are in that circumstance,and if you're the kind of person
who is watching even orlistening to a podcast like
this, you're conscientious, andyou're wanting to really explore
(39:08):
this, and you're wanting to getanswers. You're not wanting to
make a rash decision, and so allthat's really good. And I would
say we have a lot moreinformation out there than maybe
we did 510, even 20 years ago,we have a lot more information
about what works in couplestherapy, what makes marriage,
marriages succeed and fail. Wehave a lot more hard science.
(39:30):
And so I would say, don'thesitate to go out and, you
know, educate yourself and workwith a professional that really
understands systems. And bythat, I mean that they
understand relationalinteractions and relationship
dynamics, because that is it'sjust different than individual,
than just working one on onewith somebody who maybe that's
(39:53):
all they've ever done, and theydon't have as much of the
relationship training. So thattraining is important, and you.
Millions of excellent individualcouples therapists. So please
don't misunderstand what I'msaying. But I think even if you
have an individual therapist,you'll want to know that they
have some training in systemstheory and in relationships and
(40:14):
those types of dynamics. Sothat's just going to be
important. Because when, when Ihave a someone coming in, and
let's say, they don't want tocome in with their partner, but
they're contemplating thisquestion. They're thinking about
divorce. I'm going to work withthem one on one, but I'm always
keeping in my head the partner,and you know, what could be
(40:35):
their perspective? And I'mtrying to even ask questions to
elicit that from that individualperson. And of course, I'm
always asking, like, would yourpartner be willing to see a
therapist with you, so this wayyou can get the app the, you
know, the best look ateverything that's going on. And
of course, for understandablereasons, sometimes they say no,
(40:56):
because the partner has no ideaat all that this is what they're
thinking of. So that I, youknow, I totally understand that
side of it. But if you're in thecircumstance where you can
actually go visit a, you know,someone who works with couples,
and in particular, if they dodiscernment work, then I would
say it would it's reallyworthwhile so that you make this
(41:18):
decision, and, you know, withthat confidence and with that
clarity,
Colette Fehr (41:23):
absolutely perfectly said. Thank you so
much, Marnie. This is sohelpful, and we're going to link
to all of these resources andhow you can reach Dr Marnie and
even work with her if you're inthe state of Florida, and we're
just so grateful that you cameon and lent us your time,
(41:43):
because this is something somany people are dealing with. So
thank you to you, and thank youeveryone for listening. We hope
you got some good insights fromthe couch today. Yes, and we
will see you all next time.
Unknown (41:57):
Bye, guys. You
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.