January 22, 2025 • 39 mins
In today’s episode of Insights from the Couch, we discuss the evolving conversation around work, family, and redefining what it means to take a career pause. Joined by Neha Ruch, founder of the platform Mother Untitled, we explore the insights from her upcoming book, The Power Pause, and how it encourages women to embrace career downshifts or pauses with confidence and purpose. Neha shares her journey of moving from corporate ambition to an intentional family-focused life, challenging outdated beliefs that staying at home and career ambitions are mutually exclusive.
Together, we explore the fluidity in women’s career choices, discuss the economic and social shifts that allow flexibility in work-family balance, and the importance of owning your unique journey without shame or fear.
Episode Highlights:
[0:00] – Introduction to the episode and welcoming Neha Ruch, founder of Mother Untitled.
[1:34] – Neha shares her journey from corporate life to embracing a career pause.
[4:47] – Discussing the cultural expectations and shifting narratives around motherhood and career.
[7:26] – The pandemic’s impact on work-life balance and caregiving in America.[11:16] – The real financial considerations in choosing to stay at home or pause a career.
[13:36] – Maximizing a career pause: Personal growth and keeping the door open for future work.
[18:15] – Why developing an “expansive identity” during family life stages can lead to a stronger career reentry.
[23:10] – Addressing fears about a “resume gap” and reframing it as a “career portfolio.”
[27:02] – What America can learn from other countries about family leave and healthcare.
[29:23] – The role of social media in supporting flexible work and women-owned businesses.
[32:08] – Tips for finding flexible work options that align with your family’s needs.
Resources:
- Neha's platform supporting women in family-focused career choices - https://www.motheruntitled.com/
- This is a game-changing strategic guide for mothers in career shifts Amazon or Bookshop.org
- Follow on Instagram: @motheruntitled
For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:03):
Welcome back, everyone, and thanks for joining
us for another great episode ofinsights from the couch mental
health at midlife, we have afantastic guest today, Neha Rus.
We are so excited to have youhere. Neha is the founder of
Mother Untitled, the leadingplatform for ambitious women,
(00:24):
leaning into family life, athought leader, influencer and
sought after speaker focusing onwomen, work, parenting and
identity. Nae has transformativeinsights and reframes resonate
with the hundreds of 1000s ofwomen in the mother untitled
community and beyond. Throughmother Untitled, she has sparked
(00:44):
meaningful, supportiveconversations, catalyzing a
shift in how society views stayat home motherhood. Her book The
Power pause, how to plan acareer break after kids and come
back stronger than ever. Yes,will be published by Putnam in
January of 2025 Welcome andthank you so much for being
(01:04):
here.
Neha Ruch (01:05):
Oh, thank you, Colette, that is so kind. I'm
thrilled. Yeah, we're
Colette Fehr (01:09):
thrilled to have you, and we have so many
questions for you, and just wantto dig into it all. You're
really re conceptualizing themodern view of the landscape for
women between career and familylife and balancing all of that.
Got this great book coming out,and you've built this beautiful
community take us into a littlebit of like, what set you off on
(01:31):
this journey, and why was this apassion for you?
Neha Ruch (01:34):
Well, you know, I spent the better part of my 20s
and early 30s really getting alot of worth and joy from what I
did for paid work, like so manywomen in this generation, right,
and so many parents in thiscountry, and when I first had my
(01:54):
child, I felt differently. Ithink it made me re examine what
I wanted in the moment, I reallyfound probably a level of sort
of inner peace that I'd beenlooking for for a while. I had
been climbing that ladder for awhile, and it sort of put that
into perspective. And I chose,initially, to downshift my
(02:15):
career, meaning I went intoconsulting two days a week, and
the rest of the week I was athome. And this was the height of
the lean in movement and thegirl boss era, right? So this
was around 2016 and I had justgraduated Stanford Business
School. I'd landed what on paperwas my dream job. And I started
hearing from everyone, my peers,family, friends, are you giving
(02:35):
up? Are you giving up on yourambition? Are you giving up on
your feminism? Are you giving upon your possibility, and I,
meanwhile, felt fairly clear, ain my choice for that moment,
but B in my potential down theline. I really did see this as
one chapter that I wanted toshift my focus, and I wanted to
(02:57):
see how I might be able to growalongside my kids. I did not see
this as a career ender, and Iwas meeting incredible women in
my neighborhood, which was atNomad New York. And I would meet
these other women in baby groupsand baby classes and on the
playground that were reflectingthat back to me in their own
ways. Right? They were eitherpausing their careers and
thinking about what might comenext, or they were down shifting
(03:19):
or shifting into more flexiblearrangements, and none of it
matched the stereotype of theJune Cleaver archetype that I
knew was fueling a lot of thestigmas that I was feeling. And
as I was looking around, therewas tremendous content elevating
the traditional working parent,but it was leaving behind women
like myself out of theconversation. So I eventually
(03:41):
paused in 2017 and startedmother untitled as initially a
project chronicling both my ownexperience, navigating the gray
area, featuring women I wasmeeting that were changing the
perception and and re examininga lot of and researching where
this all came from. It's
Laura Bowman (03:59):
so interesting because, I mean, I'm Colette,
and I are a little older, and Ifirmly grew up with, like, the
message of when you have kids,and I maybe this was just my
family, because I don't thinkthis was everybody in the 80s.
Of like, your kids are yourfirst priority. And it was very
much like a false choice. Youeither stayed home and, like,
(04:19):
really were a great parent, oryou went to work, but you really
sacrificed something, and whatit sounds like to me is like
you're completely rejectingthat, and that you're able to
like think very dialectically,you can hold space for your own
ambition and be the parent youwant to be, and that those are
not at odds with each other, isthat what your mission is here
(04:44):
kind of to give that vision towomen. That's right.
Neha Ruch (04:47):
I think we have a very black and white idea of
working family. Yeah. And a lotof that was sort of left over
from if you look back in time,right in the 1970s post World
War II. Women were starting togo back to, you know, to
recognize their capacity andpotential in the workforce. In
the 1970s we started to say,Wait a second, we have so much
(05:08):
opportunity there that we havecapacity for but what we did was
we sort of left The Stay At Homemother back in the 1970s
defending tradition, right? Andso in the 80s, we started to see
these sort of camps of thequote, unquote, stay at home and
working mother. We started tosee the rise the Mommy Wars,
which was something like, trulya fiction from media. But we
(05:31):
started pitting women againsteach other in these very polar
opposites. And what we didn'tcatch up to was the new
narrative, which is the realitythat we want to present right,
which is that we are more alikethan we are different. Now, more
of us are actually existing inbetween than ever before,
because we have access todigital technology that allows
us to be able to exist inbetween. We're looking at women
(05:54):
having children much later thanthey did prior. So they've
already accrued work andeducation experience before
entering into parenthood, themore equitable relationships
with their partners than everbefore, right? So these aren't
women teetering around in heelsand aprons like serving
cocktails at the end of the day.
Their husbands, in the case oftwo parent households, are
actually spending three timesthe amount of time with their
(06:16):
children than the generationprior, right? And so for all
these reasons, we're due for arebrand, yes, of the stay at
home mother, but I would argue,really rethinking this horrible
construct of stay at home andworking, really thinking about
us all sort of on a spectrumthat is constantly fluid, and
we're we're sort of dialing upand dialing down, making
positive shifts sprints, andknowing that it is ultimately A
(06:39):
long game, because among all ofthose other data data points,
the age of retirement haschanged, so we're looking at a
much longer career than before.
I
Colette Fehr (06:48):
love the way you're describing the fluidity
of it that this is not a fixedthing, because we have in modern
times, women. You know, justeven for our audience of women
at midlife. We have women whoare in their 40s, many of them
who are having their first kidsat 41 and 42 and beyond. Along
(07:11):
those lines, I'm curious, how doyou see the cultural zeitgeist
about motherhood and careerright now like, what do you
think the prevailing narrativesare, both the good ones and
maybe the limiting ones?
Neha Ruch (07:26):
I think what it had been was a really challenging
trope that motherhood and workwere at odds with one another,
and to be in the workforce, wehad to suppress our motherhood
to exist fully in motherhood. Wehad to really rethink our
relationship to work. And thereality, I think, that we've
(07:46):
seen post pandemic, is that whenpeople could no longer hide
their family life, right, whenthey when everyone got on Zoom,
it really Challenged America tore examine caregiving and how
much work it actually is. And Ithink one of the best things
that came of it was that itignited a real conversation
(08:07):
about how to make work work forfamily, and not the other way
around. And so that's what I'mreally seeing, is just a
cultural re examination of ourvalue of work, how it takes away
from the real value aroundfamily and life and health. And
so I think it's, you know, whenculture is ripe for re
examination, it gives us a lotof opportunity to start getting
(08:30):
really vocal about what ourneeds are. And so what we're
seeing is women really take backthe power and say, Wait a
second, we do have needs. Andmotherhood is really a
tremendous work. And motherhood,by the way, does actually make
me a stronger leader. And whatare the various ways in which we
can start to make work supportus in that role more? And you
(08:51):
know, the goal with my work isto say there are so many
options, and we need to startvalidating one option, which is
to pause or downshift for achapter and be able to look at
that option with real respectand possibilities, so that women
can be supported and respectedduring that stage, and also
(09:11):
supported and respected whenthey decide they want to dial up
work on the other side. How
Laura Bowman (09:16):
much do you think the pandemic actually provided
so much space and like, talkabout a pause, a moment where
people are at home in theirfamily lives and realizing,
like, the traditional officetype life is just not what they
want. I mean, is that reallysomething that accelerated this
whole process? Yeah,
Neha Ruch (09:37):
100% I think it really challenged people to
assign real value to caregivingin a way that we never had
before, right? It was justsomething that happened, and
when you were actually theretaking care of the day to day of
family administration and takingcare of the health and education
of your kids, you start you cameface to face with. What parents
(10:00):
do? And I think, you know, thereused to be this question of
like, well, what do stay at homeparents do all day anyways? And
that no one could ask thatquestion anymore, because you
were looking at it. And thencombine that with, you know, the
rise of mental health issues,the rise of technology, and some
of the issues that we're comingup with between tech and teens,
(10:21):
a lot of these issues that tooka different level of
intellectual and emotional infamily life, that I think
started to shine a light onweight. We need more capacity
and head space for that as well.
And so a combination ofdifferent issues combined with
opportunities, right? I thinkflexible and remote work really
started to accelerate. I thinkwomen started to say, Wait, this
(10:41):
remote work thing is actuallyreally interesting, and it lets
me be an efficient worker andlets me be a pickup. I And I
would argue that men did too.
We're seeing the rates of menpausing their careers
accelerating. We right now, onein five stay at home parents are
actually dads. And I think Iremember, yeah, is ticking
(11:02):
upward. And I think when itstops being a gendered issue, I
think it becomes reallyinteresting as well, right? When
we start to see both men andwomen say, Wait, family life is
a value, and we really need toadvocate for this together,
right?
Colette Fehr (11:16):
It's about saying explicitly that family life is
valuable and worthy andimportant, and then making work
work for us, not that work isthe centerpiece that controls
your life, and you're, you know,swirling around in it with no
control, that you can reallychart your own course. So I'm
(11:37):
curious if you see this as Imean, obviously everybody's got
different circumstances andcertain limitations, but do you
see downshift in your careertaking a pause as something that
is accessible or realistic formost women?
Neha Ruch (11:53):
So it's so interesting. You asked that
because I think one of thetropes around stay at home
motherhood for so long was thatit's a luxury, and when we deem
one thing to be a luxury, Ithink we as a culture, just
write it off as something thatdoesn't really need a warrant
support or examination. And whatwe know now in the data is that
actually one in three stay athome parents are choosing to
(12:15):
pause because of the cost ofchildcare. 60% would say it's a
financial consideration combinedwith other needs and wants,
right? And so whether you'restaying at home, or whether
you're working out of the home,or whether you're existing in
between, the privilege is to getto choose. So if you get to
choose it, that is the inherentprivilege. If you are forced
(12:38):
into any of those decisionsbecause you can't offset the
cost of childcare, or you can'tforego that side of your
household income. That's whereit is. It is ultimately much
more, you know, challenging,because you're forced into a non
choice that said, you know, oneof the things that I think is
really interesting right now is,if a pause is not financially
(12:59):
accessible, what is the abilitywithin your industry or within
your company to figure out otherways in which to create
boundaries around your work,whether that's about
flexibility, whether that'sabout I've seen women and men
take not necessarily demotions,but lateral moves where they
don't have as much managerialresponsibility, so that they
don't have to afford As muchheadspace and stress. There's
(13:22):
lots of ways to make room forfamily life, right? For some
people, it's time, and for somepeople it's headspace, and for
some people it's flexibility.
And I think figuring out what isavailable to you isn't exactly
as black and white as pausing ornot pausing. So take
Laura Bowman (13:36):
us into like this traditional down shift slash
pause, where a woman may not seethe real opportunity she has to
make the most of that timeperiod.
Neha Ruch (13:48):
You know, a lot of this is the work of the power
pause is to help ignite women tothink, not only can I step into
this with a little bit moreconfidence, but also the knowing
that this is a career pause andit's not a life pause, right? We
are going to continue to growand learn, and that is a really
important mindset to have, notonly when you step into the
(14:08):
decision, but even how youresign when you're leaving the
workforce. Can you sort ofnurture your network on your way
out, so that you're actuallypreserving and nurturing those
relationships with the intentionto be able to drop on that
network. Ultimately, when youtransition back to the
workforce, or transition backinto work of meaning to you in a
different capacity, I thinksetting up your day to day,
(14:32):
giving yourself permission tohave goals of your own, is so
important, right? I think sooften we see, and we saw this in
our American mothers on pauseResearch survey that we
commissioned that women were toooften when they step into
chapters of stay at home,parenthood or down shifted
careers, they'll say, Well, nowthat my success metric is no
(14:52):
longer my salary or mypromotions, my success metric is
that my children's behavior,which is obviously like a true
trap. Or the success of mymarriage also challenging,
right? Well, how can weencourage women to actually hold
space for their own personal andprofessional goals during this
stage of life? Becauseultimately, we want to set up
their day to day. That not onlydoes it have to be about the
(15:15):
kids growing, but maybe, how canthey think about ways in which
to ask their family for help,their partners for help, their
neighbors for help. They'remaybe a paid babysitter or a
mother's helper or a drop offchild care, so that they're
investing some time back intothemselves. And that goal
doesn't have to be, oh, I wantto take, you know, online
certification classes and SEOMarketing. That goal could be,
(15:38):
you know, patience has been areal area of growth for me, and
maybe this is the time where Iinvest into therapy or invest
into meditation or invest intofiguring out where those
triggers come from. And it canbe personal development, and
huge personal development. Andthen ultimately, we want to use
this time when they're ready toalso figure out, how can I
explore and experiment in newways? There's nothing like time
(16:02):
at home where you've alreadychecked your ego of the
traditional workforce, you'vealready said, like, I'm leaving
that like, fancy title, well,maybe now is the time to say,
like, Oh, I've always wanted totinker with that idea. Now is my
time to use Instagram to dothat, or use Squarespace to do
that, or volunteer at my localschool to figure out, like maybe
(16:22):
events is really interesting tome. And so all to say, we want
to guide women to know that theyare getting to grow and explore
alongside their kids. And if wecan chart a course to do that,
by the time they do feel thatmotivation or interest in
returning to work in somecapacity, they have more of a
foundation of personaldevelopment, self discovery and
(16:44):
exploration to draw from. I
Colette Fehr (16:46):
love that, because developing yourself and raising
your kids should not and is notmutually exclusive, exactly
right. So you really continuingto grow and invest in yourself,
whether it's in your career insome new capacity at whatever
level works for you, or it'spersonal development that you
(17:06):
know you're continuing to growand feel engaged and alive and
invigorated, and so when and ifor how you choose to return, you
haven't stagnated, and you'renot stuck back where you were.
Because I think Laura and I astherapists, we see a lot of
women who, you know, whateverthe choice, I respect, all the
(17:27):
choices, whether it's to stayhome, to keep working, to take a
pause, but there are women whohave chosen to stop working, or
some never to work in the firstplace, and a lot of them, at The
point when they get to emptynest, would really like
something that brings meaningand purpose, and they just feel
(17:47):
feels overwhelming to start fromscratch, and many times it's
because they have investedeverything exclusively in their
children and their children'sdevelopment. And they will come
into therapy and sit and talkreally only about their
children, right? It's like theytheir lost self has been she,
(18:09):
you know, shelved off so longago. They're so cleaved from
their their true self and theirown growth.
Neha Ruch (18:16):
And I think one of the things I, you know, start
the book off with is this, somuch of our identity is tied to
what we do for work, right? Andwhen we part with our formal
title, it can feel like, oh, Inow. I'm a nobody. I don't fit,
or I'm just, quote, unquote,just a month. But what if you
use this stage of life to figureout a more expansive identity,
(18:36):
right? That actually includeswhat lights you up, what you
care about what doesn't lightyou up. You know when you when
you create that expansiveidentity, actually when you
return, you are stronger,because you have more to draw
upon feeling like a wholeperson, and you bring all of
those sides of you into theworkforce. I think it is a real
(18:57):
sort of untapped potential rightnow, because women are looking
for permission to allowthemselves that space. I think
the number one block for womenis feeling like they deserve
that space for themselves. Ifyou were to ask me, what is the
part that is the saddest orhardest part of this work, and I
think it's women pause work forpay. They believe they no longer
(19:19):
deserve help. No one shouldwork. 24/7, without breaks. A
lot of this work is to say towomen, look, here's not only
here's your value, here's howyou are actually continuing to
contribute to your households,your scripts to continue to feel
financially dignified. But thenlater on, as you're finding your
footing in this chapter,remember that it benefits your
(19:42):
entire household for you to behealthy and supported. So
investing in care or support, oroutsourcing Whatever it looks
like, or trading off withmorning wake ups with your
partner, whatever that thosebreaks look like for you, that
is actually an investment inthis whole household and not
just in your. And I think givingwomen that knowledge that they
(20:03):
are allowed to have that space,that they need to have that
space they're worthy of thatspace, then allows them to
think, Okay, well, what do I dowith that space once I have it,
and how can I can I use it tosort of grow in ways that will
continue to build my story andmy sense of sense of fullness,
yeah, and be creative
Colette Fehr (20:21):
with it and curious about yourself. And it
doesn't have to look oneparticular way along those lines
of giving yourself permission toget help, permission to down
shift. What other typical fearsdo you hear from women around
doing some of this, eitherbecause they're still stuck in a
culturally imposed should orjust fears about their own
(20:46):
finances or viability when theytry to return. And do you hear
much of that? Still? I
Neha Ruch (20:51):
do. I think chapter by chapter, I sort of bring up
the common tropes and thendismantle them, and then I sort
of your speech a number ofexperts who and real mothers on
how they navigated it. And thensort of end with a way in which
women can sort of rewrite thatnarrative. So the first one,
being around identity thatsomehow I'm giving up on my
ambition and feminism. Thesecond, being around being a
(21:14):
financial dependent, and Ichallenge that with actually
your household isinterdependent, right? The
parent working out of the homefor pay is equally dependent on
you. So what can we do toscaffold you so that you feel
supported? Is that writing out aformal contract, like a post
nup, or is it just making sureyou're having ongoing
conversations? And by the way,if it's a rocky marriage, maybe
(21:35):
now is not the time to pause.
But what might you want toconsider instead? I think a big
one is this idea that if you'reresigning, that you're giving up
on your career in entirety. Ithink shifting that mindset is
really empowering, and thenfiguring out like because I
think that sets you up to enjoythe chapter in a different way.
This myth that sort of yoursuccess is now your children's
(21:55):
success, I think, is reallyimportant. Permission to help,
get help is, is a big one. Ithink the last few I would say
is that, you know, there's thismyth that your network dries up
in motherhood. I would actuallychallenge that it can actually
expand in the most incrediblyauthentic of ways. And then it's
just about, how do youstrategically use that more
network in sort of differentways than, like, exchanging
(22:17):
strollers? I think this ideathat your creativity and your
hobbies dry up, like, actuallywe see in the data that they
expand in a big way. So how canyou use this time to explore
meaningfully? And ultimately, Ithink the biggest fear is, like,
I won't be able to get back inand, you know, with a resume,
quote, unquote gap, and I offerthe idea that actually, instead
of a resume, like linear resume,what if we think about it as a
(22:40):
career portfolio, right? Thatyou have your traditional
experience that you had in theworkforce, and now you're
building upon it all these nontraditional experiences, right?
And maybe that's advising yourpartner or me or a friend on
their business. Maybe it'snavigating really complicated
health circumstances for achild, or managing a relocation
(23:01):
or a family, or volunteering,but all of those things are sub
bullets to your career breakthat add to a really powerful
confidence story.
Laura Bowman (23:11):
I love that. I mean, I can see how
transformational your work willbe like for that woman that
Colette and I are talking about,that we see a lot in our
practice who have put theircareer down, put all their
energy into their kids, if theyhad had somebody along the way
saying, hey, look how you cangrow your network, and how
(23:31):
important this is right now, andhow much you can be doing, how
you can invest in your personalgrowth, how you can really get
confidence out of Some of these,like navigating a child with
health issues that's likeintense work that women don't
give themselves credit for howhard that is, but like reframing
that and giving the scaffoldingfor that, I think this is, this
(23:55):
is much needed for women. Laura,so I'm so happy you're doing
Neha Ruch (23:59):
this. I really appreciate that
Colette Fehr (24:01):
this is transformational, and it's where
society is now and needs to be.
You shouldn't have to sacrificeyour family the whole way
America works. You know, withlike not giving people paid
postpartum time, the healthcarechildcare. I mean, my brother's
10 years younger than I am. Sohe and his wife are like 41 they
(24:21):
live in California. She is a ICUnurse and can make a lot of
money and even have someflexibility. But even with that,
they decided, because she wouldlike to be working somewhat, but
the cost of childcare is soexpensive and impossible. She's
like, it's like, I'm gonna beusing basically my salary to pay
(24:45):
someone. And she's like, I'drather be with my kids, so I'm
gonna wait until she startsschool. Like, even, you know,
pre K kind of stuff, you know.
And why not, if it's gonna cost.
Me exactly what I earn, why I'drather be the one who's home
with my child, and that's somepeople don't feel that way, you
know, but we our culture, is sounfriendly to this whole
(25:10):
prospect, and it's not where weare as a society anymore. I
Neha Ruch (25:17):
really see a big shift in the next decade
happening, which is so exciting,and we've seen it. I mean, I say
it all the time, I don't think Iwould have been able to put this
book out there when I startedthis work in 2017 I don't think
we were ready. We were stillsort of on the lean in train.
And then we got to the I thinkwe all leaned in, and then the
(25:38):
pandemic happened, and everyonehad this, like, moment of
recalibration and, and I think,you know, it's a wonderful,
wonderful silver lining to tothat 2020, years that it really
called into question, like,what's really working or not
working for this country rightnow? And we have to, we have a
long way to go, but we have alot of models to draw from,
(26:00):
like, you know, Canada, say whatyou want about it, but they've
figured out the paid familyleave they have. What
Colette Fehr (26:07):
do they do there?
What do you see? I don't know.
They have a year.
Neha Ruch (26:12):
And then you Oh, wow, they can. You can extend a year
and a half. Now, I think thebest recommendation like, what
any family policy expert wouldsay, like, if we can get to six
months, that would be a realwin. Because six months, if you
can return to work and you'refully healed and you sort of
figured out a childcareinfrastructure, and that's
around the time when childrencan, like, enter a daycare
(26:34):
system with a little bit moreease. I mean, six months would
feel like a win in this country,but you're looking at a country
like Canada that, not only I, Ithink that, not to get too far
into policy, but it's not justabout paid family leave, but
it's the universal health care.
Because when you have universalhealth care, forcing a boom of
women building their ownbusinesses, and the reason
they're building their ownbusinesses is because they want
(26:56):
that flexibility, and so they'remore able to do that with
healthcare?
Colette Fehr (27:02):
No, that's huge, and I'm glad you're mentioning
this, because, you know, Lauraand I both run our own
businesses as therapists, and ifI were not married, and I
actually had a period of timebetween my two marriages as a
therapist where I had to pay formy own private healthcare and it
was outrageously expensive toget really shitty care, and it's
(27:24):
just something is so broken. Idon't know what the answers are,
but the fact that Canada givesthe universal health care and a
year off to me, that is somehowI wish we could find a way to
get there that made economicalsense and can be managed
properly. I don't know thatthat'll ever happen, but I
(27:45):
agree, six months would be awin. Your kids sitting up right
there, close to crawling, rightyou some of those hormones. For
many people have settled. When Ilook back at my first daughter,
she's 23 now, you know, I almostdied during delivery. We really
should have sued the hospital.
She didn't breathe. It was verytraumatic. I was really young, I
(28:06):
think, like, 26 years old, whichis insane on so many levels,
especially that I have a 23 yearold daughter. I'm like, don't do
what I did. Yeah, yeah, eventhough you're so great and I
love you. But I was not okay fora long time, and I didn't even
really realize how not okay Iwas. And we all react so
differently, even if you haveall the resources and support in
(28:28):
the world, it's a huge change inyour body and a huge adjustment,
especially as a first timeparent. So I really hope we
gravitate toward more support,not only for career, but just
like launching into motherhood,it's hard,
Laura Bowman (28:45):
absolutely, to all those points. And I think you're
right. As a culture, we'reshifting, and hopefully it's
going to look really differentin the next decade. But let's
shift, give gears into, like,what is the whole social media
doing for like, women'sentrepreneurial journeys? I
mean, even Colette and I, youknow, at this phase of life,
we've had, like brick and mortarbusinesses, but like the whole
(29:07):
idea of wanting a more flexiblework world through the internet
and doing podcasts and owningyour own business, or being an
influence this, women arestarting to get creative and
having a Bigger imagination forwhat their work life could look
like.
Neha Ruch (29:23):
You know, I really think this concept of women sort
of building our own economy atthis point, because not only are
those women starting smallbusinesses or remote businesses
or virtual businesses, they'rethen hiring other women in
freelance and contract roles,right? And so we're creating a
flexible workplace. And so Iactually think one of the gifts
(29:45):
of social media, obviously,there's a lot going on right now
in figuring out the impact ofsocial media on young people,
but I think the impact it's hadon women has been tremendous,
right? I think it's allowedwomen to be able to build a new
and create. Of ways. It'sallowed ease of access to
ongoing learning andexploration. And so, you know,
(30:06):
one of the tips I often givewomen when they're like, Well,
what do I do next? Or like, Idon't have a hobby, is look at
your social media. Look at thecontent you're consuming. It
leaves clues for what you'reinterested in. Are you following
a lot of family policy accounts?
Are you following a lot ofinterior design accounts? Or,
you know, there's so many waysjust use social media to learn
about yourself, to experimentand explore the shift towards
(30:27):
the boom of women owned smallbusinesses and entrepreneurship
and the freelance gig economy issignificant. I think it's not
going anywhere. And I also thinkjust going back to sort of the
premise of this conversation. Itis a huge deal for the women and
work movement, because what itdoes is it expands what I call
the Vasque area between stay athome and working. It allows
(30:49):
women to exist in between anddial up and dial down without
shame or penalty, because we'reactually all sort of in
navigating and in between. Andit gives us more autonomy to do
that. Yes,
Colette Fehr (31:01):
it's amazing, actually, because there are
things available to us now thatweren't in the past. This is the
positive of all this onlinestuff. So are there any tips you
have in general for somebody,let's say, and maybe there
aren't. Maybe everything's justvery, very niche. But what if
somebody has a career thatthey're they think, all right, I
(31:23):
don't want to be completely outof the workforce. I do want to
do I want to downshift, but Iwant to keep working in some
capacity, because that'simportant for me. Like, I
realize I was not supposed to bea stay at home mom for many
reasons. Like, it was a mistake.
I was a stay at home mom for aperiod, but it wasn't really
good for me. I need to keepmyself doing challenging things,
(31:45):
or I don't I'm not my highest,best self. But what about
somebody who says I want to dothat, but I need something more
flexible, and my job or mycareer doesn't allow me to like
work part time. Are there waysor tips to look for flexible
work? You know, if it's maybesomething different than you've
done before? A few
Neha Ruch (32:08):
things, I think industries are broadening their
sense of what's possible from apart time and flexible basis. I
would say, before you throw inthe towel on flexibility, look
outside of your company forother parents at other like
minded organizations or similarindustries, and see if you can
(32:28):
find anyone who does have aflexible role, and gain insight
from the you know. Call them up,ask them how it's worked.
Ideally, talk to more than oneperson, figure out what worked,
and create a plan that you canpresent to your manager. It's a
great suggestion. I have nowtalked to, obviously, hundreds
of women, but what I'm alwaysstruck by is the women at
(32:49):
historically very rigidindustries like finance, who did
actually go to their managerwith, like, a written down plan,
and it is on off in often inthose settings, they're not
going to, like, put it up on asilver plate and say here like
you can come back two days aweek, or you can work. You know
you can work remotelycompletely, but you may be able
(33:10):
to craft plans yourself. Lookonline, look on LinkedIn, look
in your parent community andgroup and ask for those
connections and suggestions. Sothat's number one. Number two is
to then think about other arenaswhere you may be able to lend
your expertise. So say you're inlaw or finance. I'm just picking
really, like, historically, moretraditional work environments.
(33:33):
You might then look atnonprofits and see, like, Would
I be able to transition into amore or small business, by the
way. So like we were talkingabout oftentimes, what we're
seeing now is small businessesemploy a lot of fractional
workers where they may havepreviously been stuck to full
time workers. Now they'rerealizing, Wait a second, it's
(33:54):
actually cost sensitive for usto only hire like really good
talent two days a week. So ifyou cannot find the role that
you're looking for within theexisting company or a similar
environment, then look at someof these non traditional
environments, like a nonprofitor a small business to seek out
fractional opportunities. Andthen there's this other side,
(34:15):
which is okay if we do choose todownshift and we really want
flexible work to PA either keepincome or keep ourselves
relevant and connected. Can Ilook outside to related
industries so something that,like, say, I was a lawyer, could
I then step into more policyadvocacy, right, and so that I'm
building my story strategically,and it's on my own terms, but
(34:40):
I'm not taking my foot off thegas and then, like, bottom line,
one last thing is, if you are inlaw, keep up your bar. Like,
even if you're planning ontaking a two year, five year
break, like, just keep your barup. The same applies to nursing
or medicine, teaching your
Colette Fehr (34:55):
license, whatever
Laura Bowman (34:56):
licenses you get, keep them well, you're
Neha Ruch (34:59):
one. To do is keep your optionality available to
you, even in a full pause. Thereare ways to continue to do that
in really strategic ways. And Ithink that option was just ever
expanding, but it is, you know,as much as we're talking about
how so much is changing in apositive way, I think it's still
on us to own our stories,advocate for what might be
(35:22):
possible and look for the waysto tell our story moving
forward,
Laura Bowman (35:26):
I love it. I love that you're giving so much
permission for creativity and,you know, imaginative ways
forward, and that's what wereally need to encourage.
There's a way to do everythingright so and women need support
and help and sometimes a littleguidance with that, but it pays
huge dividends. And
Colette Fehr (35:45):
permission.
Permission. We're now finallygiving people permission that it
doesn't have to look the oldway, and you don't have to make
this, you know, very rigid, allin all, out choice anymore. So
exciting.
Neha Ruch (36:03):
I think it is true, yeah,
Colette Fehr (36:06):
and it's exciting.
I'm a mom of two daughters. Itmakes me excited for my kids
that they're both in college andfinishing up this year, and, you
know, in their early 20s, andit's just exciting to think
about the way they can develop afamily and a career path that
wasn't an option. You know, afew decades ago, I love that. I
Neha Ruch (36:30):
you know, I say that all the time, whenever I think
about like, what's my why? Ithink for my daughter and my
son, they will grow up, and thisidea of stay at home and working
mother will seem so antiquatedto them, like they will. They'll
just know that they can makesort of the right choices for
right now and continue to shiftand evolve. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (36:53):
and I, and that's the goal for all of us. Whatever
career path you're on is alwaysto keep growing, and you never
know where you're going to go. Imean, Laura and I a couple years
ago, I don't think we knew wewere going to have a podcast,
you know. So there's all thisstuff that can pop up at any
stage of life, which is alsoexciting. You can have a whole
(37:14):
new career plan at 60, if youwant to. That is possible now.
Neha Ruch (37:18):
Very much. So, so
Colette Fehr (37:19):
cool. It's so cool. Thank you so much for all
of this, and I want to, beforewe let you go, give us an idea
of how we can connect with you.
Of course, everything will be inthe show notes, but what do you
want people to know aboutgetting in touch with you? The
book, all that good stuff.
Neha Ruch (37:35):
Oh, thank you for all your support and your
enthusiasm. It really means theworld. If this work resonates
with you, if there's someone inyour life for whom it might
resonate, I really ask anyone topre order you can go to mother
on title.com/the, power pause.
Not only is it sort of a firstof its kind guide for women to
walk through this stage of lifewith confidence, but it also is
a call to action to validatethis choice and open up more
(37:59):
choices for women. So that's onething. If you do pre order, you
can access the first chapter,which is all about identity, and
so that's a fun one, and thehistory of how we got here and
why it looks a lot differentmoving forward. AND you can
subscribe on motherontitle.comto the our weekly newsletter or
(38:20):
follow on mother on title thaton Instagram. Wonderful.
Colette Fehr (38:25):
Well, I'm sure our listeners are going to want to
grab this book and join thecommunity. I'm excited to read
it. I can't wait. And we're sograteful that you were here and
for this really importantconversation. It makes me
excited for all of us, women andour children. So thank you
definitely. Thanks so much, andthanks everyone for listening.
(38:48):
If you like what you heardtoday, and we hope you do.
Please don't forget to sharewith your friends. Leave us a
review, and we'll see you nexttime on insights from the couch.
Bye, everyone you
Welcome back, everyone, and thanks for joining
us for another great episode ofinsights from the couch mental
health at midlife, we have afantastic guest today, Neha Rus.
We are so excited to have youhere. Neha is the founder of
Mother Untitled, the leadingplatform for ambitious women,
(00:24):
leaning into family life, athought leader, influencer and
sought after speaker focusing onwomen, work, parenting and
identity. Nae has transformativeinsights and reframes resonate
with the hundreds of 1000s ofwomen in the mother untitled
community and beyond. Throughmother Untitled, she has sparked
(00:44):
meaningful, supportiveconversations, catalyzing a
shift in how society views stayat home motherhood. Her book The
Power pause, how to plan acareer break after kids and come
back stronger than ever. Yes,will be published by Putnam in
January of 2025 Welcome andthank you so much for being
(01:04):
here.
Neha Ruch (01:05):
Oh, thank you, Colette, that is so kind. I'm
thrilled. Yeah, we're
Colette Fehr (01:09):
thrilled to have you, and we have so many
questions for you, and just wantto dig into it all. You're
really re conceptualizing themodern view of the landscape for
women between career and familylife and balancing all of that.
Got this great book coming out,and you've built this beautiful
community take us into a littlebit of like, what set you off on
(01:31):
this journey, and why was this apassion for you?
Neha Ruch (01:34):
Well, you know, I spent the better part of my 20s
and early 30s really getting alot of worth and joy from what I
did for paid work, like so manywomen in this generation, right,
and so many parents in thiscountry, and when I first had my
(01:54):
child, I felt differently. Ithink it made me re examine what
I wanted in the moment, I reallyfound probably a level of sort
of inner peace that I'd beenlooking for for a while. I had
been climbing that ladder for awhile, and it sort of put that
into perspective. And I chose,initially, to downshift my
(02:15):
career, meaning I went intoconsulting two days a week, and
the rest of the week I was athome. And this was the height of
the lean in movement and thegirl boss era, right? So this
was around 2016 and I had justgraduated Stanford Business
School. I'd landed what on paperwas my dream job. And I started
hearing from everyone, my peers,family, friends, are you giving
(02:35):
up? Are you giving up on yourambition? Are you giving up on
your feminism? Are you giving upon your possibility, and I,
meanwhile, felt fairly clear, ain my choice for that moment,
but B in my potential down theline. I really did see this as
one chapter that I wanted toshift my focus, and I wanted to
(02:57):
see how I might be able to growalongside my kids. I did not see
this as a career ender, and Iwas meeting incredible women in
my neighborhood, which was atNomad New York. And I would meet
these other women in baby groupsand baby classes and on the
playground that were reflectingthat back to me in their own
ways. Right? They were eitherpausing their careers and
thinking about what might comenext, or they were down shifting
(03:19):
or shifting into more flexiblearrangements, and none of it
matched the stereotype of theJune Cleaver archetype that I
knew was fueling a lot of thestigmas that I was feeling. And
as I was looking around, therewas tremendous content elevating
the traditional working parent,but it was leaving behind women
like myself out of theconversation. So I eventually
(03:41):
paused in 2017 and startedmother untitled as initially a
project chronicling both my ownexperience, navigating the gray
area, featuring women I wasmeeting that were changing the
perception and and re examininga lot of and researching where
this all came from. It's
Laura Bowman (03:59):
so interesting because, I mean, I'm Colette,
and I are a little older, and Ifirmly grew up with, like, the
message of when you have kids,and I maybe this was just my
family, because I don't thinkthis was everybody in the 80s.
Of like, your kids are yourfirst priority. And it was very
much like a false choice. Youeither stayed home and, like,
(04:19):
really were a great parent, oryou went to work, but you really
sacrificed something, and whatit sounds like to me is like
you're completely rejectingthat, and that you're able to
like think very dialectically,you can hold space for your own
ambition and be the parent youwant to be, and that those are
not at odds with each other, isthat what your mission is here
(04:44):
kind of to give that vision towomen. That's right.
Neha Ruch (04:47):
I think we have a very black and white idea of
working family. Yeah. And a lotof that was sort of left over
from if you look back in time,right in the 1970s post World
War II. Women were starting togo back to, you know, to
recognize their capacity andpotential in the workforce. In
the 1970s we started to say,Wait a second, we have so much
(05:08):
opportunity there that we havecapacity for but what we did was
we sort of left The Stay At Homemother back in the 1970s
defending tradition, right? Andso in the 80s, we started to see
these sort of camps of thequote, unquote, stay at home and
working mother. We started tosee the rise the Mommy Wars,
which was something like, trulya fiction from media. But we
(05:31):
started pitting women againsteach other in these very polar
opposites. And what we didn'tcatch up to was the new
narrative, which is the realitythat we want to present right,
which is that we are more alikethan we are different. Now, more
of us are actually existing inbetween than ever before,
because we have access todigital technology that allows
us to be able to exist inbetween. We're looking at women
(05:54):
having children much later thanthey did prior. So they've
already accrued work andeducation experience before
entering into parenthood, themore equitable relationships
with their partners than everbefore, right? So these aren't
women teetering around in heelsand aprons like serving
cocktails at the end of the day.
Their husbands, in the case oftwo parent households, are
actually spending three timesthe amount of time with their
(06:16):
children than the generationprior, right? And so for all
these reasons, we're due for arebrand, yes, of the stay at
home mother, but I would argue,really rethinking this horrible
construct of stay at home andworking, really thinking about
us all sort of on a spectrumthat is constantly fluid, and
we're we're sort of dialing upand dialing down, making
positive shifts sprints, andknowing that it is ultimately A
(06:39):
long game, because among all ofthose other data data points,
the age of retirement haschanged, so we're looking at a
much longer career than before.
I
Colette Fehr (06:48):
love the way you're describing the fluidity
of it that this is not a fixedthing, because we have in modern
times, women. You know, justeven for our audience of women
at midlife. We have women whoare in their 40s, many of them
who are having their first kidsat 41 and 42 and beyond. Along
(07:11):
those lines, I'm curious, how doyou see the cultural zeitgeist
about motherhood and careerright now like, what do you
think the prevailing narrativesare, both the good ones and
maybe the limiting ones?
Neha Ruch (07:26):
I think what it had been was a really challenging
trope that motherhood and workwere at odds with one another,
and to be in the workforce, wehad to suppress our motherhood
to exist fully in motherhood. Wehad to really rethink our
relationship to work. And thereality, I think, that we've
(07:46):
seen post pandemic, is that whenpeople could no longer hide
their family life, right, whenthey when everyone got on Zoom,
it really Challenged America tore examine caregiving and how
much work it actually is. And Ithink one of the best things
that came of it was that itignited a real conversation
(08:07):
about how to make work work forfamily, and not the other way
around. And so that's what I'mreally seeing, is just a
cultural re examination of ourvalue of work, how it takes away
from the real value aroundfamily and life and health. And
so I think it's, you know, whenculture is ripe for re
examination, it gives us a lotof opportunity to start getting
(08:30):
really vocal about what ourneeds are. And so what we're
seeing is women really take backthe power and say, Wait a
second, we do have needs. Andmotherhood is really a
tremendous work. And motherhood,by the way, does actually make
me a stronger leader. And whatare the various ways in which we
can start to make work supportus in that role more? And you
(08:51):
know, the goal with my work isto say there are so many
options, and we need to startvalidating one option, which is
to pause or downshift for achapter and be able to look at
that option with real respectand possibilities, so that women
can be supported and respectedduring that stage, and also
(09:11):
supported and respected whenthey decide they want to dial up
work on the other side. How
Laura Bowman (09:16):
much do you think the pandemic actually provided
so much space and like, talkabout a pause, a moment where
people are at home in theirfamily lives and realizing,
like, the traditional officetype life is just not what they
want. I mean, is that reallysomething that accelerated this
whole process? Yeah,
Neha Ruch (09:37):
100% I think it really challenged people to
assign real value to caregivingin a way that we never had
before, right? It was justsomething that happened, and
when you were actually theretaking care of the day to day of
family administration and takingcare of the health and education
of your kids, you start you cameface to face with. What parents
(10:00):
do? And I think, you know, thereused to be this question of
like, well, what do stay at homeparents do all day anyways? And
that no one could ask thatquestion anymore, because you
were looking at it. And thencombine that with, you know, the
rise of mental health issues,the rise of technology, and some
of the issues that we're comingup with between tech and teens,
(10:21):
a lot of these issues that tooka different level of
intellectual and emotional infamily life, that I think
started to shine a light onweight. We need more capacity
and head space for that as well.
And so a combination ofdifferent issues combined with
opportunities, right? I thinkflexible and remote work really
started to accelerate. I thinkwomen started to say, Wait, this
(10:41):
remote work thing is actuallyreally interesting, and it lets
me be an efficient worker andlets me be a pickup. I And I
would argue that men did too.
We're seeing the rates of menpausing their careers
accelerating. We right now, onein five stay at home parents are
actually dads. And I think Iremember, yeah, is ticking
(11:02):
upward. And I think when itstops being a gendered issue, I
think it becomes reallyinteresting as well, right? When
we start to see both men andwomen say, Wait, family life is
a value, and we really need toadvocate for this together,
right?
Colette Fehr (11:16):
It's about saying explicitly that family life is
valuable and worthy andimportant, and then making work
work for us, not that work isthe centerpiece that controls
your life, and you're, you know,swirling around in it with no
control, that you can reallychart your own course. So I'm
(11:37):
curious if you see this as Imean, obviously everybody's got
different circumstances andcertain limitations, but do you
see downshift in your careertaking a pause as something that
is accessible or realistic formost women?
Neha Ruch (11:53):
So it's so interesting. You asked that
because I think one of thetropes around stay at home
motherhood for so long was thatit's a luxury, and when we deem
one thing to be a luxury, Ithink we as a culture, just
write it off as something thatdoesn't really need a warrant
support or examination. And whatwe know now in the data is that
actually one in three stay athome parents are choosing to
(12:15):
pause because of the cost ofchildcare. 60% would say it's a
financial consideration combinedwith other needs and wants,
right? And so whether you'restaying at home, or whether
you're working out of the home,or whether you're existing in
between, the privilege is to getto choose. So if you get to
choose it, that is the inherentprivilege. If you are forced
(12:38):
into any of those decisionsbecause you can't offset the
cost of childcare, or you can'tforego that side of your
household income. That's whereit is. It is ultimately much
more, you know, challenging,because you're forced into a non
choice that said, you know, oneof the things that I think is
really interesting right now is,if a pause is not financially
(12:59):
accessible, what is the abilitywithin your industry or within
your company to figure out otherways in which to create
boundaries around your work,whether that's about
flexibility, whether that'sabout I've seen women and men
take not necessarily demotions,but lateral moves where they
don't have as much managerialresponsibility, so that they
don't have to afford As muchheadspace and stress. There's
(13:22):
lots of ways to make room forfamily life, right? For some
people, it's time, and for somepeople it's headspace, and for
some people it's flexibility.
And I think figuring out what isavailable to you isn't exactly
as black and white as pausing ornot pausing. So take
Laura Bowman (13:36):
us into like this traditional down shift slash
pause, where a woman may not seethe real opportunity she has to
make the most of that timeperiod.
Neha Ruch (13:48):
You know, a lot of this is the work of the power
pause is to help ignite women tothink, not only can I step into
this with a little bit moreconfidence, but also the knowing
that this is a career pause andit's not a life pause, right? We
are going to continue to growand learn, and that is a really
important mindset to have, notonly when you step into the
(14:08):
decision, but even how youresign when you're leaving the
workforce. Can you sort ofnurture your network on your way
out, so that you're actuallypreserving and nurturing those
relationships with the intentionto be able to drop on that
network. Ultimately, when youtransition back to the
workforce, or transition backinto work of meaning to you in a
different capacity, I thinksetting up your day to day,
(14:32):
giving yourself permission tohave goals of your own, is so
important, right? I think sooften we see, and we saw this in
our American mothers on pauseResearch survey that we
commissioned that women were toooften when they step into
chapters of stay at home,parenthood or down shifted
careers, they'll say, Well, nowthat my success metric is no
(14:52):
longer my salary or mypromotions, my success metric is
that my children's behavior,which is obviously like a true
trap. Or the success of mymarriage also challenging,
right? Well, how can weencourage women to actually hold
space for their own personal andprofessional goals during this
stage of life? Becauseultimately, we want to set up
their day to day. That not onlydoes it have to be about the
(15:15):
kids growing, but maybe, how canthey think about ways in which
to ask their family for help,their partners for help, their
neighbors for help. They'remaybe a paid babysitter or a
mother's helper or a drop offchild care, so that they're
investing some time back intothemselves. And that goal
doesn't have to be, oh, I wantto take, you know, online
certification classes and SEOMarketing. That goal could be,
(15:38):
you know, patience has been areal area of growth for me, and
maybe this is the time where Iinvest into therapy or invest
into meditation or invest intofiguring out where those
triggers come from. And it canbe personal development, and
huge personal development. Andthen ultimately, we want to use
this time when they're ready toalso figure out, how can I
explore and experiment in newways? There's nothing like time
(16:02):
at home where you've alreadychecked your ego of the
traditional workforce, you'vealready said, like, I'm leaving
that like, fancy title, well,maybe now is the time to say,
like, Oh, I've always wanted totinker with that idea. Now is my
time to use Instagram to dothat, or use Squarespace to do
that, or volunteer at my localschool to figure out, like maybe
(16:22):
events is really interesting tome. And so all to say, we want
to guide women to know that theyare getting to grow and explore
alongside their kids. And if wecan chart a course to do that,
by the time they do feel thatmotivation or interest in
returning to work in somecapacity, they have more of a
foundation of personaldevelopment, self discovery and
(16:44):
exploration to draw from. I
Colette Fehr (16:46):
love that, because developing yourself and raising
your kids should not and is notmutually exclusive, exactly
right. So you really continuingto grow and invest in yourself,
whether it's in your career insome new capacity at whatever
level works for you, or it'spersonal development that you
(17:06):
know you're continuing to growand feel engaged and alive and
invigorated, and so when and ifor how you choose to return, you
haven't stagnated, and you'renot stuck back where you were.
Because I think Laura and I astherapists, we see a lot of
women who, you know, whateverthe choice, I respect, all the
(17:27):
choices, whether it's to stayhome, to keep working, to take a
pause, but there are women whohave chosen to stop working, or
some never to work in the firstplace, and a lot of them, at The
point when they get to emptynest, would really like
something that brings meaningand purpose, and they just feel
(17:47):
feels overwhelming to start fromscratch, and many times it's
because they have investedeverything exclusively in their
children and their children'sdevelopment. And they will come
into therapy and sit and talkreally only about their
children, right? It's like theytheir lost self has been she,
(18:09):
you know, shelved off so longago. They're so cleaved from
their their true self and theirown growth.
Neha Ruch (18:16):
And I think one of the things I, you know, start
the book off with is this, somuch of our identity is tied to
what we do for work, right? Andwhen we part with our formal
title, it can feel like, oh, Inow. I'm a nobody. I don't fit,
or I'm just, quote, unquote,just a month. But what if you
use this stage of life to figureout a more expansive identity,
(18:36):
right? That actually includeswhat lights you up, what you
care about what doesn't lightyou up. You know when you when
you create that expansiveidentity, actually when you
return, you are stronger,because you have more to draw
upon feeling like a wholeperson, and you bring all of
those sides of you into theworkforce. I think it is a real
(18:57):
sort of untapped potential rightnow, because women are looking
for permission to allowthemselves that space. I think
the number one block for womenis feeling like they deserve
that space for themselves. Ifyou were to ask me, what is the
part that is the saddest orhardest part of this work, and I
think it's women pause work forpay. They believe they no longer
(19:19):
deserve help. No one shouldwork. 24/7, without breaks. A
lot of this work is to say towomen, look, here's not only
here's your value, here's howyou are actually continuing to
contribute to your households,your scripts to continue to feel
financially dignified. But thenlater on, as you're finding your
footing in this chapter,remember that it benefits your
(19:42):
entire household for you to behealthy and supported. So
investing in care or support, oroutsourcing Whatever it looks
like, or trading off withmorning wake ups with your
partner, whatever that thosebreaks look like for you, that
is actually an investment inthis whole household and not
just in your. And I think givingwomen that knowledge that they
(20:03):
are allowed to have that space,that they need to have that
space they're worthy of thatspace, then allows them to
think, Okay, well, what do I dowith that space once I have it,
and how can I can I use it tosort of grow in ways that will
continue to build my story andmy sense of sense of fullness,
yeah, and be creative
Colette Fehr (20:21):
with it and curious about yourself. And it
doesn't have to look oneparticular way along those lines
of giving yourself permission toget help, permission to down
shift. What other typical fearsdo you hear from women around
doing some of this, eitherbecause they're still stuck in a
culturally imposed should orjust fears about their own
(20:46):
finances or viability when theytry to return. And do you hear
much of that? Still? I
Neha Ruch (20:51):
do. I think chapter by chapter, I sort of bring up
the common tropes and thendismantle them, and then I sort
of your speech a number ofexperts who and real mothers on
how they navigated it. And thensort of end with a way in which
women can sort of rewrite thatnarrative. So the first one,
being around identity thatsomehow I'm giving up on my
ambition and feminism. Thesecond, being around being a
(21:14):
financial dependent, and Ichallenge that with actually
your household isinterdependent, right? The
parent working out of the homefor pay is equally dependent on
you. So what can we do toscaffold you so that you feel
supported? Is that writing out aformal contract, like a post
nup, or is it just making sureyou're having ongoing
conversations? And by the way,if it's a rocky marriage, maybe
(21:35):
now is not the time to pause.
But what might you want toconsider instead? I think a big
one is this idea that if you'reresigning, that you're giving up
on your career in entirety. Ithink shifting that mindset is
really empowering, and thenfiguring out like because I
think that sets you up to enjoythe chapter in a different way.
This myth that sort of yoursuccess is now your children's
(21:55):
success, I think, is reallyimportant. Permission to help,
get help is, is a big one. Ithink the last few I would say
is that, you know, there's thismyth that your network dries up
in motherhood. I would actuallychallenge that it can actually
expand in the most incrediblyauthentic of ways. And then it's
just about, how do youstrategically use that more
network in sort of differentways than, like, exchanging
(22:17):
strollers? I think this ideathat your creativity and your
hobbies dry up, like, actuallywe see in the data that they
expand in a big way. So how canyou use this time to explore
meaningfully? And ultimately, Ithink the biggest fear is, like,
I won't be able to get back inand, you know, with a resume,
quote, unquote gap, and I offerthe idea that actually, instead
of a resume, like linear resume,what if we think about it as a
(22:40):
career portfolio, right? Thatyou have your traditional
experience that you had in theworkforce, and now you're
building upon it all these nontraditional experiences, right?
And maybe that's advising yourpartner or me or a friend on
their business. Maybe it'snavigating really complicated
health circumstances for achild, or managing a relocation
(23:01):
or a family, or volunteering,but all of those things are sub
bullets to your career breakthat add to a really powerful
confidence story.
Laura Bowman (23:11):
I love that. I mean, I can see how
transformational your work willbe like for that woman that
Colette and I are talking about,that we see a lot in our
practice who have put theircareer down, put all their
energy into their kids, if theyhad had somebody along the way
saying, hey, look how you cangrow your network, and how
(23:31):
important this is right now, andhow much you can be doing, how
you can invest in your personalgrowth, how you can really get
confidence out of Some of these,like navigating a child with
health issues that's likeintense work that women don't
give themselves credit for howhard that is, but like reframing
that and giving the scaffoldingfor that, I think this is, this
(23:55):
is much needed for women. Laura,so I'm so happy you're doing
Neha Ruch (23:59):
this. I really appreciate that
Colette Fehr (24:01):
this is transformational, and it's where
society is now and needs to be.
You shouldn't have to sacrificeyour family the whole way
America works. You know, withlike not giving people paid
postpartum time, the healthcarechildcare. I mean, my brother's
10 years younger than I am. Sohe and his wife are like 41 they
(24:21):
live in California. She is a ICUnurse and can make a lot of
money and even have someflexibility. But even with that,
they decided, because she wouldlike to be working somewhat, but
the cost of childcare is soexpensive and impossible. She's
like, it's like, I'm gonna beusing basically my salary to pay
(24:45):
someone. And she's like, I'drather be with my kids, so I'm
gonna wait until she startsschool. Like, even, you know,
pre K kind of stuff, you know.
And why not, if it's gonna cost.
Me exactly what I earn, why I'drather be the one who's home
with my child, and that's somepeople don't feel that way, you
know, but we our culture, is sounfriendly to this whole
(25:10):
prospect, and it's not where weare as a society anymore. I
Neha Ruch (25:17):
really see a big shift in the next decade
happening, which is so exciting,and we've seen it. I mean, I say
it all the time, I don't think Iwould have been able to put this
book out there when I startedthis work in 2017 I don't think
we were ready. We were stillsort of on the lean in train.
And then we got to the I thinkwe all leaned in, and then the
(25:38):
pandemic happened, and everyonehad this, like, moment of
recalibration and, and I think,you know, it's a wonderful,
wonderful silver lining to tothat 2020, years that it really
called into question, like,what's really working or not
working for this country rightnow? And we have to, we have a
long way to go, but we have alot of models to draw from,
(26:00):
like, you know, Canada, say whatyou want about it, but they've
figured out the paid familyleave they have. What
Colette Fehr (26:07):
do they do there?
What do you see? I don't know.
They have a year.
Neha Ruch (26:12):
And then you Oh, wow, they can. You can extend a year
and a half. Now, I think thebest recommendation like, what
any family policy expert wouldsay, like, if we can get to six
months, that would be a realwin. Because six months, if you
can return to work and you'refully healed and you sort of
figured out a childcareinfrastructure, and that's
around the time when childrencan, like, enter a daycare
(26:34):
system with a little bit moreease. I mean, six months would
feel like a win in this country,but you're looking at a country
like Canada that, not only I, Ithink that, not to get too far
into policy, but it's not justabout paid family leave, but
it's the universal health care.
Because when you have universalhealth care, forcing a boom of
women building their ownbusinesses, and the reason
they're building their ownbusinesses is because they want
(26:56):
that flexibility, and so they'remore able to do that with
healthcare?
Colette Fehr (27:02):
No, that's huge, and I'm glad you're mentioning
this, because, you know, Lauraand I both run our own
businesses as therapists, and ifI were not married, and I
actually had a period of timebetween my two marriages as a
therapist where I had to pay formy own private healthcare and it
was outrageously expensive toget really shitty care, and it's
(27:24):
just something is so broken. Idon't know what the answers are,
but the fact that Canada givesthe universal health care and a
year off to me, that is somehowI wish we could find a way to
get there that made economicalsense and can be managed
properly. I don't know thatthat'll ever happen, but I
(27:45):
agree, six months would be awin. Your kids sitting up right
there, close to crawling, rightyou some of those hormones. For
many people have settled. When Ilook back at my first daughter,
she's 23 now, you know, I almostdied during delivery. We really
should have sued the hospital.
She didn't breathe. It was verytraumatic. I was really young, I
(28:06):
think, like, 26 years old, whichis insane on so many levels,
especially that I have a 23 yearold daughter. I'm like, don't do
what I did. Yeah, yeah, eventhough you're so great and I
love you. But I was not okay fora long time, and I didn't even
really realize how not okay Iwas. And we all react so
differently, even if you haveall the resources and support in
(28:28):
the world, it's a huge change inyour body and a huge adjustment,
especially as a first timeparent. So I really hope we
gravitate toward more support,not only for career, but just
like launching into motherhood,it's hard,
Laura Bowman (28:45):
absolutely, to all those points. And I think you're
right. As a culture, we'reshifting, and hopefully it's
going to look really differentin the next decade. But let's
shift, give gears into, like,what is the whole social media
doing for like, women'sentrepreneurial journeys? I
mean, even Colette and I, youknow, at this phase of life,
we've had, like brick and mortarbusinesses, but like the whole
(29:07):
idea of wanting a more flexiblework world through the internet
and doing podcasts and owningyour own business, or being an
influence this, women arestarting to get creative and
having a Bigger imagination forwhat their work life could look
like.
Neha Ruch (29:23):
You know, I really think this concept of women sort
of building our own economy atthis point, because not only are
those women starting smallbusinesses or remote businesses
or virtual businesses, they'rethen hiring other women in
freelance and contract roles,right? And so we're creating a
flexible workplace. And so Iactually think one of the gifts
(29:45):
of social media, obviously,there's a lot going on right now
in figuring out the impact ofsocial media on young people,
but I think the impact it's hadon women has been tremendous,
right? I think it's allowedwomen to be able to build a new
and create. Of ways. It'sallowed ease of access to
ongoing learning andexploration. And so, you know,
(30:06):
one of the tips I often givewomen when they're like, Well,
what do I do next? Or like, Idon't have a hobby, is look at
your social media. Look at thecontent you're consuming. It
leaves clues for what you'reinterested in. Are you following
a lot of family policy accounts?
Are you following a lot ofinterior design accounts? Or,
you know, there's so many waysjust use social media to learn
about yourself, to experimentand explore the shift towards
(30:27):
the boom of women owned smallbusinesses and entrepreneurship
and the freelance gig economy issignificant. I think it's not
going anywhere. And I also thinkjust going back to sort of the
premise of this conversation. Itis a huge deal for the women and
work movement, because what itdoes is it expands what I call
the Vasque area between stay athome and working. It allows
(30:49):
women to exist in between anddial up and dial down without
shame or penalty, because we'reactually all sort of in
navigating and in between. Andit gives us more autonomy to do
that. Yes,
Colette Fehr (31:01):
it's amazing, actually, because there are
things available to us now thatweren't in the past. This is the
positive of all this onlinestuff. So are there any tips you
have in general for somebody,let's say, and maybe there
aren't. Maybe everything's justvery, very niche. But what if
somebody has a career thatthey're they think, all right, I
(31:23):
don't want to be completely outof the workforce. I do want to
do I want to downshift, but Iwant to keep working in some
capacity, because that'simportant for me. Like, I
realize I was not supposed to bea stay at home mom for many
reasons. Like, it was a mistake.
I was a stay at home mom for aperiod, but it wasn't really
good for me. I need to keepmyself doing challenging things,
(31:45):
or I don't I'm not my highest,best self. But what about
somebody who says I want to dothat, but I need something more
flexible, and my job or mycareer doesn't allow me to like
work part time. Are there waysor tips to look for flexible
work? You know, if it's maybesomething different than you've
done before? A few
Neha Ruch (32:08):
things, I think industries are broadening their
sense of what's possible from apart time and flexible basis. I
would say, before you throw inthe towel on flexibility, look
outside of your company forother parents at other like
minded organizations or similarindustries, and see if you can
(32:28):
find anyone who does have aflexible role, and gain insight
from the you know. Call them up,ask them how it's worked.
Ideally, talk to more than oneperson, figure out what worked,
and create a plan that you canpresent to your manager. It's a
great suggestion. I have nowtalked to, obviously, hundreds
of women, but what I'm alwaysstruck by is the women at
(32:49):
historically very rigidindustries like finance, who did
actually go to their managerwith, like, a written down plan,
and it is on off in often inthose settings, they're not
going to, like, put it up on asilver plate and say here like
you can come back two days aweek, or you can work. You know
you can work remotelycompletely, but you may be able
(33:10):
to craft plans yourself. Lookonline, look on LinkedIn, look
in your parent community andgroup and ask for those
connections and suggestions. Sothat's number one. Number two is
to then think about other arenaswhere you may be able to lend
your expertise. So say you're inlaw or finance. I'm just picking
really, like, historically, moretraditional work environments.
(33:33):
You might then look atnonprofits and see, like, Would
I be able to transition into amore or small business, by the
way. So like we were talkingabout oftentimes, what we're
seeing now is small businessesemploy a lot of fractional
workers where they may havepreviously been stuck to full
time workers. Now they'rerealizing, Wait a second, it's
(33:54):
actually cost sensitive for usto only hire like really good
talent two days a week. So ifyou cannot find the role that
you're looking for within theexisting company or a similar
environment, then look at someof these non traditional
environments, like a nonprofitor a small business to seek out
fractional opportunities. Andthen there's this other side,
(34:15):
which is okay if we do choose todownshift and we really want
flexible work to PA either keepincome or keep ourselves
relevant and connected. Can Ilook outside to related
industries so something that,like, say, I was a lawyer, could
I then step into more policyadvocacy, right, and so that I'm
building my story strategically,and it's on my own terms, but
(34:40):
I'm not taking my foot off thegas and then, like, bottom line,
one last thing is, if you are inlaw, keep up your bar. Like,
even if you're planning ontaking a two year, five year
break, like, just keep your barup. The same applies to nursing
or medicine, teaching your
Colette Fehr (34:55):
license, whatever
Laura Bowman (34:56):
licenses you get, keep them well, you're
Neha Ruch (34:59):
one. To do is keep your optionality available to
you, even in a full pause. Thereare ways to continue to do that
in really strategic ways. And Ithink that option was just ever
expanding, but it is, you know,as much as we're talking about
how so much is changing in apositive way, I think it's still
on us to own our stories,advocate for what might be
(35:22):
possible and look for the waysto tell our story moving
forward,
Laura Bowman (35:26):
I love it. I love that you're giving so much
permission for creativity and,you know, imaginative ways
forward, and that's what wereally need to encourage.
There's a way to do everythingright so and women need support
and help and sometimes a littleguidance with that, but it pays
huge dividends. And
Colette Fehr (35:45):
permission.
Permission. We're now finallygiving people permission that it
doesn't have to look the oldway, and you don't have to make
this, you know, very rigid, allin all, out choice anymore. So
exciting.
Neha Ruch (36:03):
I think it is true, yeah,
Colette Fehr (36:06):
and it's exciting.
I'm a mom of two daughters. Itmakes me excited for my kids
that they're both in college andfinishing up this year, and, you
know, in their early 20s, andit's just exciting to think
about the way they can develop afamily and a career path that
wasn't an option. You know, afew decades ago, I love that. I
Neha Ruch (36:30):
you know, I say that all the time, whenever I think
about like, what's my why? Ithink for my daughter and my
son, they will grow up, and thisidea of stay at home and working
mother will seem so antiquatedto them, like they will. They'll
just know that they can makesort of the right choices for
right now and continue to shiftand evolve. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (36:53):
and I, and that's the goal for all of us. Whatever
career path you're on is alwaysto keep growing, and you never
know where you're going to go. Imean, Laura and I a couple years
ago, I don't think we knew wewere going to have a podcast,
you know. So there's all thisstuff that can pop up at any
stage of life, which is alsoexciting. You can have a whole
(37:14):
new career plan at 60, if youwant to. That is possible now.
Neha Ruch (37:18):
Very much. So, so
Colette Fehr (37:19):
cool. It's so cool. Thank you so much for all
of this, and I want to, beforewe let you go, give us an idea
of how we can connect with you.
Of course, everything will be inthe show notes, but what do you
want people to know aboutgetting in touch with you? The
book, all that good stuff.
Neha Ruch (37:35):
Oh, thank you for all your support and your
enthusiasm. It really means theworld. If this work resonates
with you, if there's someone inyour life for whom it might
resonate, I really ask anyone topre order you can go to mother
on title.com/the, power pause.
Not only is it sort of a firstof its kind guide for women to
walk through this stage of lifewith confidence, but it also is
a call to action to validatethis choice and open up more
(37:59):
choices for women. So that's onething. If you do pre order, you
can access the first chapter,which is all about identity, and
so that's a fun one, and thehistory of how we got here and
why it looks a lot differentmoving forward. AND you can
subscribe on motherontitle.comto the our weekly newsletter or
(38:20):
follow on mother on title thaton Instagram. Wonderful.
Colette Fehr (38:25):
Well, I'm sure our listeners are going to want to
grab this book and join thecommunity. I'm excited to read
it. I can't wait. And we're sograteful that you were here and
for this really importantconversation. It makes me
excited for all of us, women andour children. So thank you
definitely. Thanks so much, andthanks everyone for listening.
(38:48):
If you like what you heardtoday, and we hope you do.
Please don't forget to sharewith your friends. Leave us a
review, and we'll see you nexttime on insights from the couch.
Bye, everyone you
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