February 5, 2025 • 39 mins
Today we sit down with the incredible Cait Flanders to explore what it really means to live an intentional life. Cait, author of The Year of Less and Adventures in Opting Out, shares her journey of opting out of societal norms, creating life on her own terms, and learning how to navigate her way through sobriety, minimalism, and self-compassion. Cait opens up about her decision to quit drinking, her shopping ban that led to a massive decluttering of her life—both physically and emotionally—and the tough but necessary journey of finding clarity through less. This is an episode about finding peace in simplicity, courage in self-awareness, and learning how to let go of what no longer serves us.
Episode Highlights:
[02:27] - Letting go of relationships and finding peace with personal boundaries.[06:12] - Societal pressure and opting out of the social “noise”.
[06:30] - Welcoming Cait as she joins us to share her story firsthand.
[07:55] - Cait’s shopping ban: how decluttering and minimalism started her journey.
[11:34] - Evolving from financial goals to a deeper emotional transformation.
[15:37] - Navigating sobriety and finding healthy coping mechanisms.
[18:26] - Facing raw emotions during the year of less and embracing vulnerability.
[24:15] - Cait’s dad on sobriety: “It’s so much better on this side”.
[26:35] - Self-compassion and letting go of shame for past choices.
[31:20] - Cultivating resilience and self-trust through intentional change.
[35:49] - Embracing emotional growth and self-connection to enrich relationships.
Connect with Cait Flanders:
- Website: https://www.caitflanders.com/
- Newsletter: https://caitflanders.substack.com/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/caitflanders
For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura Bowman (00:03):
Kate, welcome back to insights from the couch.
Today we're going to talk toKate Flanders, who is this
really cool young writer whowrote the book The Year of less
and adventures and opting out afield guide to leading an
intentional life. This is awoman who has sidestepped
culture all over the place onher own terms. She stopped
(00:26):
drinking. She's been sober for,I think, seven plus years. She
did an entire experiment with ashopping ban where she just
didn't shop for a year and gotrid of a lot of the extraneous
crap in her house and worked onher own terms as a self
supporting writer, and fromthere, has done multiple solo
(00:50):
travel trips and has livedabroad for, I think, well, over
a year now. So she's going to bepopping on at some point, but
Colette Fehr (00:58):
so cool. I can't wait to talk to her. First of
all, I'm jealous in like, ahealthy way. I don't begrudge
her. I just sort of wish I hadthat life. But I really love
this topic, because we'retalking about creating,
cultivating an intentional lifeon your own terms, according to
your values, and that'll lookdifferent to everybody, but I
(01:21):
love the idea of weeding out,or, as she says, opting out and
getting rid of what'sextraneous, both the material
and physical the emotional, sothat you're really homing down
on, like, what you want. So wewere just chatting before we
started recording on like, howwhen you do this, you lose
(01:42):
people along the way.
Laura Bowman (01:44):
Yeah, when you live in accordance with your
values, certain relationshipswill fall away. And you know, I
was talking about in my own lifethat I have a really close
family member who I alwaysthought I would be super close
with and and I do not have thisperson in my life anymore. It's
my brother, and I was grew up soclose with him, but I was
(02:08):
telling Colette like just to bein relationship with him is a
real compromising of my ownvalues, and it's just too hard.
So you have to be okay withlosses along the way, even
though you're really not okaywith them, you wouldn't choose
them.
Colette Fehr (02:27):
You miss that person, and you there's grief
for that loss. But at the sametime, your relationship with
yourself matters more, and ifsomebody makes you compromise or
abandon yourself in order to bein a relationship with them, you
get to a point where you're notwilling to do that anymore,
amen. So part of the opting outis people, right? Is people, and
(02:48):
I've seen other friends have togo through letting go
friendships. It can be quiteexcruciatingly painful, but what
that point is is where it's morepainful to compromise yourself
and choosing ourselves can bereally hard. It can be and
especially if you have a historyof being a people pleaser. I
(03:08):
can't even say it makes me sickactually. Yeah, I do too, but I
was a massive people pleaser,and still consider myself one in
recovery. But I haven't lostfamily members. I have lost
friends or let go of friends.
Maybe it just happened sort ofnaturally in some cases, and in
other cases, there's been a hardstop. And then, Laura, you were
(03:31):
saying to me when we decided tojust hop on and get started. I
love the term you use that Ilive this sort of monk like
existence, which I feel likeanyone who knows me will find
very hard to believe, yes, buttell me your perspective on
that, because I'm curious howyou saw me during that time, or
what you saw
Laura Bowman (03:53):
you never surprised. Like I've never
ceased to be amazed by you.
Because, like, as soon assomebody thinks they have your
personality nailed. You always,like, you always have a twist.
So I guess I wasn't surprised tosee you. I mean, I think what
were you like, coloring your ownhair and kind of like you did,
like, no nails, and you werelike, walking, ever, running
(04:15):
every day and working out, andyou were like, no out drinking,
yeah, like, which, I mean, Ididn't drink for a year, and you
were super comfortable in thatchoice, like I was. It didn't
bother it didn't seem to botheryou at all, to just choose
yourself there. And you told methere were certain people you
hadn't seen or weren't connectedwith, and you were kind of okay
(04:38):
with it, yeah, I thought it wasa very productive time for you.
Colette Fehr (04:45):
I know, as you say it, I'm like, God, I kind of
missed that time. No, I have tosay it was also during COVID,
yeah, you know, I think I usedCOVID as like a cocooning
because I thought, you know, notreally going anywhere, at least
for. A little while and seeinganyone, that's when I went back
to being brunette, which Idecided isn't really great for
(05:05):
me the way I look, but it savedme money and time. And you're
right, my life got smaller. Ithink. What was good about it, I
wasn't spending money. I wasn'tdrinking. It was a quieter time.
I'm normally pretty social. Ididn't do much socially, but I
felt very connected to myself,to my values, and I was really
(05:28):
at peace. You know, maybe
Laura Bowman (05:30):
I'm not fully neurotypical, I don't know, but
I just I it's hard on me, so Ithe way you're describing life
is like the way I choose tolive. I would choose to live all
the time, although there'salways a tension of like, are
you not engaged enough?
Colette Fehr (05:47):
Are you not in the world enough? And so that that's
my own conversation that I havewith myself. I really wonder for
our listeners, how many of youguys feel pressure to be out in
the world and on andsocializing, or more people at
this age, they have, theyalready opted out of that, and
(06:08):
they're just kind of quiet athome, doing their own thing.
Laura Bowman (06:12):
Let's be honest. I think there's just a push, if
you know, to be relevant, to notmiss out even, you know, I even
have that voice and yeah, alittle FOMO of like, oh, I guess
everybody's sort of doing stuff.
Why aren't I there? Even if youdon't really want to be there,
here she
Cait Flanders (06:30):
is. Yay, hi, yeah, yeah. So
Colette Fehr (06:34):
we're gonna just jump right in, because we
already started chatting. Laura,I'll let you kind of take it
away from here. And Kate, we'reso excited to have you here.
You're a beautiful writer, andyou have a wonderful message to
share with our listeners. Thank
Laura Bowman (06:52):
you so much. Yes, I read your books. I'm almost
through your second book, whichis adventures and opting out,
but I read the year of last inlike, a day, and I was just, I
was so, like, moved andinspired. First of all, it's
like, completely in my languageof I'm always talking to Colette
about, like, the need to, like,really sidestep the current of
(07:14):
culture. Like, I feel like it'sa very fast moving current, and
it will swallow you if you don'tmake some really intentional
choices about where you want toput yourself, but I'm also just
for, like, personal disclosure,a little bit of, like, a just
right OCD type. So, like, thewhole idea of getting rid of
things really appeals to me.
Like, that's my safe space.
(07:35):
Like, when life gets reallyoverwhelming, I'll just start
throwing things out and cleaningmy house. So I was like, Yes, I
want to live in this simple,intentional space. Will you tell
our listeners, like, what washappening in your life that
began the book, the year of lastand what you did with that book?
(07:55):
Yeah.
Cait Flanders (07:56):
Okay, so gosh, at the beginning, it's so
interesting to be reflecting onthis now, because it's been 10
years since I did that, which isalways just interesting,
because, like, the book, someonereads it for the first time,
it's new to them, and you'relike, I did that experience.
Like I started it in July of2014
Laura Bowman (08:12):
How old were you then? By the way, 29
Cait Flanders (08:15):
like, I was a baby. I'm
Laura Bowman (08:16):
so impressed at how young you were at, like,
tackling these things. Yeah, Iwas a baby.
Cait Flanders (08:21):
You know, one of the things that was true was
that, unfortunately, for a bunchof different reasons, I had had
to move, I think it was fivetimes. And in moving so many
times, I mean, I You can't helpbut notice the fact that you're
basically just moving things,like from closet to closet. You
know, you're not even unpackingso much stuff. There's so many
(08:43):
boxes of things that you justseem to own and keep in storage,
but like, you never actually usethem. And I think if you just
lived in one place for a longtime, it's easy to kind of
ignore that, or just feel likethat's kind of like, for lack of
better terms, quote, unquote,normal, like it's just a thing
you do. You know, you just keepsome stuff in storage. But I
think when you move it so manytimes, you really start to see,
(09:06):
I don't even know what some ofthis stuff is. Like, I don't
even know what's in some ofthese boxes. Yeah, and I keep
paying, I mean, I was doing themoving, but you're still paying
to, like, rent a moving truck,to, like, move things around.
And I'm like, What even is allof this stuff? I think, like,
there was also probably justregular kind of life, stress,
work stress, like there weresome different things happening.
(09:27):
The moves were a big part of it.
And then the other thing thatwas true is that a big part of
the decision at first wasactually financial. And it was
that, like, at the time I waswriting a personal finance blog,
and on the blog, I would sharemy budgets. So I would share
them at the start of the month,like, what I kind of thought my
numbers would look like, andthen I would share an updated
budget at the end, and I would,I would say, like, you know, I'm
(09:51):
gonna save 20% of my income. Andactually that that should have
been doable for sort of theamount I was earning where I was
living. Saying, like, I itshould have been doable, but at
the end of every single month, Iwould write, like, basically all
the reasons why I couldn't hitthat and why I was only saving,
like, Max, like, you know, five,810, like, sometimes I get 10 or
(10:13):
so percent, but like, it wasn'tvery much. And I I did that for
12 months in a row. And when youare documenting things and
sharing it for like, you startto notice, hey, like things
about like, what am I writingevery single month? Like, what
is this thing that I'm sharingevery single month? They're not
excuses. But like, yourreasoning, your thoughts, like
(10:35):
that, you see the pattern,right? And so, like, once you
see the pattern, you're like,something isn't right here, like
something doesn't feel quiteright here, like, actually this.
Like, saving more should bedoable. I should be able to do
this. So I think I'm going totry something different. So at
first it was strictly financial.
And the thought was it actuallyhad nothing to do with stuff. At
(10:57):
first it was like, I'm justgoing to try to not shop, like,
I'm gonna try to not buy newthings and see if that helps me
save. So it started, like,purely financial, and then sort
of, I don't know, I got, like,the idea to declutter, I think,
from all the moves, and thenthat just kind of spiraled into
something totally different.
Colette Fehr (11:17):
What did it spiral into? Like, tell us about that
part, because this is such abold, brave thing to do at 20. I
mean, at any age, butparticularly so young. So how
did it evolve and what motivatedyou to turn it into something
deeper?
Cait Flanders (11:34):
My first thought was like, you know, yeah, I'll
do a little Declutter. But Ididn't really know what that
meant. And this was like, Ithink it was actually maybe four
or five months, like, beforeMarie Kondos books had come to
North America. I feel like theycame out, like october 2014 and
so I started this just a fewmonths so it's like I wasn't
following sort of anyone'sguidance. And it's very obvious,
(11:57):
like, when I tell you, what Idid was basically, like, room by
room, I would empty the drawersor the closet or whatever onto
the floor, and I made a hugemess, and then I had to clean it
up. So, like, I don't think, Idon't know if there's a lot of
decluttering experts that say,like, that's what maybe they do.
I don't, I don't really know,but
Colette Fehr (12:17):
I like it. I think it's a great
Laura Bowman (12:18):
strategy forces you to, I mean,
Cait Flanders (12:20):
for some people, it could be that could be just
really overwhelming, and justleave a lot of mess, right? But,
yeah, I was motivated by it. Sowhen I would see the mess, like
I was someone who I wanted andcleaned up, and I don't know, I
was just like, ruthless, like, II started room by room and,
like, it was kind of like, oh,like, the kitchen, there weren't
that that many things. Like,actually, that was a pretty
(12:41):
practical room. You know, Ididn't have a lot of extra. But
then it was things like, likeclothes. Like, there were so
many items of clothing that Iheld on to, but I never wore.
And there's so many stories Irealized that I was telling
myself about why I was holdingon to everything, or, like, what
when I'll wear it one day? Or,like, this dress I used to love,
(13:02):
and it fit me so well, like, allyou know, it'll fit well again
one day, or something, like, itwas all kinds of things. And
eventually, like, I just gotreally, really serious with
myself, and was like, no, like,it was, it was kind of
cutthroat, like it, but it wasvery like, Have I used this? Am
I actually going to use this?
Like, if the answer was no, itgot bagged up and was donated.
So I think, like, you know, Ithought I'll just declutter, but
(13:26):
in the first month, if Iremember correctly, I like, I
donated something like 43% of mybelongings and and so I think,
like, looking at a number likethat, and even just like, how
many times I, like, literallyfilled my car from, like, the
floor to ceiling, all, allsquare inches that you could
find. Like, I think when you seethat, you're like, oh,
(13:46):
something's happening here.
Actually, this is and it's onlyone month, and I'm like, I'm
gonna do this for a year. Oflike, what? What is happening
here? Did
Laura Bowman (13:56):
you miss any of those items? If we're being
absolutely none, to be honest,
Cait Flanders (13:59):
I I don't remember so much of whatever I
got rid of, I hold on to, like,not very much. I have, like, one
box left at my dad's house, butit's just one of those, like,
kind of a U haul, small size.
So, like, it's not very big. Andthat's like, sentimental things.
So like, photos, my high schoolyearbooks, like, I didn't get
(14:20):
rid of things like that. Like, Iliterally was just getting rid
of the things I'm never gonnawear it. I've never used this.
Like, why do I ask this? Why doI Yeah, but no, I've never
missed anything. I remember too.
Like, I didn't do it then, butit's something I've done, like,
over the years, is I've gottenrid of journals that I used to
write in, and I remember afriend being like, Oh, you're,
(14:42):
you're gonna regret that. Don'tdo that. And I'm like, I've
never even regretted that. Yeah,because when I looked at them,
they made me feel anxious, and Ilike, felt sad for my younger
self. I'm like, I don't, I don'tmean this, like nobody. So I
discovered I and I've neverregretted it.
Laura Bowman (14:56):
So one of the things, like Colette and I talk
about and we did it in a. Otherepisode is, I think it was like
a Phil Stutz thing, where hesays that one of the strat one
of the things we do in life iswe rely on all of these like low
level things like consuming foodor shopping or alcohol. And I
know you have your ownrelationship with sobriety, and
(15:19):
we do that to sort of cut theemotional tension in our lives
all the time. You know, we'rewicking away all the stress from
daily life, and so when youstart peeling back these coping
mechanisms, like, what was thatlike to not rely on shopping or
alcohol? Yeah.
Cait Flanders (15:37):
So in that sense, it probably makes like to talk
about the sobriety aspect first,because I stopped drinking
before this. So actually, it'salmost like I'd sort of been on
this journey that I didn't evenreally understand until the
shopping ban. But I think, likeover the years, I had slowly
(15:57):
been getting rid of thosethings, and even earlier than
that, like, the reason I startedwriting about personal finance
was I was documenting paying offa bunch of debt, and so it was
like I was debt free. So thatthat kind of changed, you know,
some of my relationship withmoney, then I well, actually, I
guess I stopped. I, like,recreationally used, like,
certain drugs when I wasyounger. I stopped doing that
(16:19):
when I was, like, 25 I thinkit's been like a so long, like
25 and then I stopped drinkingwhen I was 27 and so I do think,
above all else, like living asober life has changed me more
than anything. Like there areobviously other things that you
can numb yourself with, but Ithink, like alcohol, if you're
(16:40):
drinking the way that I was, is,like, very quickly leads into
just a dissociation, right? Likeit was to be completely
disconnected, like, from my bodyand what was true for me. So I
think, like that has changed me,above all else. Then, yeah, my
spending probably did pick up alittle bit, so I wasn't going
back into debt. But there wereprobably more, I'd say, like
(17:02):
emotional purchases, like, Ididn't actually identify with,
like, retail therapy. From thisthe angle, I guess, of like
treating myself like, I don'tthink treating myself has ever
been something I've really done.
I was more the kind of personwho, like, if I was having a
hard time bad day, would, yeah,buy myself the thing or and kind
of impulsively buy the thing,just, yeah, it's almost
Colette Fehr (17:24):
like a pick me up little pick me up exactly. It's
a little hit of dopamine. So Ithink I did like more
Cait Flanders (17:29):
of that. And then, yeah, the shopping ban
obviously forced me to recognizethat I couldn't do that anymore.
And so it's interesting,because, like, one of the
questions I've been asked beforeis like, okay, like, okay, like,
you know, if you can't drink, ifyou can't shop, like, what do
you do? And I'm like, I cried alot that year. Like, I actually
think the year of less or, like,that year was one of the hardest
(17:50):
years that I've emotionally evergone through. And that's, you
know, there's more that I knowabout myself even now. Like,
because I hadn't even done anytherapy at that point, now I
have. So there's, like, a lotmore I understand about myself
now, but it's like I just had tofeel my feelings, and some of
them were really, really hard,and I had no strategy. So it was
(18:12):
just like, I have to be sad.
There was a lot more selfsoothing. There was a lot more
call a friend or just like, havea hot bath or cry in bed like
you just yeah, get it outemotionally.
Colette Fehr (18:26):
So when you let go of alcohol and shopping things
that you were doing, not so muchas a treat, but kind of a coping
mechanism, not to feel feelings,then all the feelings are there,
and you have to sit withyourself. And so all that stored
up unprocessed emotion thencomes to the surface for you,
(18:48):
and you find yourself crying andfeeling, and you know, maybe in
that really engaged way, for thefirst time, without any true
escapes, or at least the escapesthat you were accustomed to. But
it sounds like even though itwas a very intense year, it led
to a true metamorphosis and abeginning of really knowing and
(19:11):
understanding yourself. Did youfind that that was the pivotal
time that you really metyourself for the first time?
Yeah,
Cait Flanders (19:20):
I do think so. I also really like that you use
the word beginning, because,like, it does sort of feel like
the beginning, right? Like itwas a challenge, an experiment
that I just did for myself, andI learned some things. But yeah,
I think, like it was thebeginning. I think especially if
we, if we just kind of used itfrom the angle, or the aspect of
the fact, like I had to feel myfeelings for the first time.
(19:42):
Like, truly, right? That wasjust the beginning of that. And
I honestly think, like, this isstill, like, probably a lifelong
journey for me, of like, how doyou actually understand yourself
and let yourself feel things,validate yourself, validate the
feelings that you're having, butsomething I did not know. About
myself at 29 is that I couldprobably have complex PTSD and
(20:05):
so like, that's something I'veonly really understood for the
last couple of years. Andthey're like it. It opens my
eyes up so much to like variousthings that I've done in life. I
do think it was just thebeginning. Yeah, and
Colette Fehr (20:16):
you're now, what, almost 40 Yeah, 39 so you're in
a very different phase of lifeand space in life, and maybe
just now, understanding that youprobably have complex PTSD and
everything is a lifelong journeyto work through, right including
that. What would you telllisteners, if you know, if it
(20:37):
were like imagine it was yourbest friend looking to you for
advice. What would you say thatyou've learned that you would
want somebody else to maybeconsider for their own life?
Cait Flanders (20:50):
I mean, I do think a big one, and probably
the thing I will have to work onfor my whole life is to not feel
ashamed of things I've done, or,you know, money I've spent, or
just decisions that I've made,because there's so much stuff
(21:12):
that we we don't understandabout ourselves and and the
reasons behind why we do things,I then think it's like An
interesting journey when youstart to figure out maybe some
of the whys that can lead to awhole bunch of new emotions.
Like, maybe you're angry, ormaybe, like, there's all kinds
of stuff you kind of have tothen reckon with once you start
(21:32):
to understand some of thereasons behind, like, why you
are the way you are. But like,shame has to be taken out of it.
I like that you use the wordcompassion there, I feel like
self compassion and trying toreduce shame, they will be the
skills of my life that I yeah,like, because I just think that
that is what keeps us trapped.
It's what keeps us from takingaction, action, not meaning,
(21:55):
like, you know, I don't know,kind of intense, like,
productivity type things. Justlike, yeah, taking some kind of
action towards changing yourlife. I also like, this is
something that came up more inadventures than it did in the
year of loss. But I think a bigthing that I still have to
remind myself of is that ifsomeone is wanting to change
(22:18):
your life. That does mean yourlife is going to change. And
that that that might sound likea really silly thing to say, but
I don't think that people reallygrapple with that enough. And I
think because, you know, youmake a change, and all kinds of
things change, it's not just,Oh, I've changed this habit.
It's like that could change howyou show up, then how other
(22:40):
people relate to you. It couldchange your relationships. It
could change, you know, allkinds of things. And I also
think it's probably one of thereasons we don't change is
because it does have a rippleeffect, and so many other areas
of your life will be touched on,or, like, impacted. And that's
that's hard, but it's like, Ithink if we don't tell each
(23:00):
other that, then we're not It'snot like a warning, but like
we're doing a disservice by nottalking about the fact that it
will be all encompassing. Youcan just say, like, I would like
to stop, you know, doing thiscoping mechanism, or I would
like to stop dissociating andbeing a be a person who feels
her feelings and has, you know,hard conversations and stuff
like that. It's like, well, thathas a big impact on your life.
(23:23):
It sure does, yeah, and that'sthe way that I live now, and the
relationships I have now, all ofit is so much healthier than
anything I've experiencedbefore. And like, is completely
out of the realm of what I everthought was possible. Like, you
know, thinking about friendshipsor, like, romantic partnership,
like, the connections I have noware so different than anything I
(23:46):
could have even imagined
Laura Bowman (23:51):
I love, that you say that because, like, what,
before you got on the call wewere talking about, you do lose
people. You will lose people.
And that's the thing that Ithink people stay stuck around
is like, well, if I don't go outand drink with these people, I'm
not going to have any friends.
But what I'm hearing you say isthat on the other side of that
(24:11):
is really good stuff, if youcan, like, stay the course.
Cait Flanders (24:15):
That's something my dad always says. My dad is
someone who's sober as well. AndI mean, he's been sober like
forever at this point. Yeah, mydad is someone who's sober, and
I remember him saying to me,it's so much better on this
side. Like it can take a longtime to feel that, or to, like,
really understand what thatmeans for you, you know, but
(24:38):
it's like after years of makingthese decisions that are right
for you, like you know you, notonly you learn so much about
your own values, like what'simportant to you, like you know,
boundaries you might have thatcould be totally different, but
also will create really healthyrelationships to come in
Colette Fehr (24:58):
that is lifelong work. Right to constantly meet
yourself, be with yourself,validate, offer yourself
compassion and grace. And Iparticularly love what you're
saying about letting go of shamefor our younger selves, because
that really keeps us stuck. Ifwe can look back on mistakes we
(25:19):
made and there might be regret.
I really like to tease thatpart. I don't think that you
celebrate every single decisionyou made. I mean, I've done some
stupid, fucked up things thatbrought about some really crappy
consequences. And I look backand part of me goes, oh, like, I
just want to cringe, and italmost feels humiliating, even
(25:40):
just to re witness it in my ownmind. And yet I try to bring
that loving parent, internalparent, part of me there to say,
you know that young Colette didthe best she could with what she
knew at the time, and I learnedfrom those mistakes, and I feel
tenderness toward her, notjudgment and contempt. And I
(26:03):
think when we begin to do that,even though it's not easy, it's
a conscious choice, we begin tofree ourselves to move forward
in the future and cultivate thelife we want, and we give
ourselves permission to continueto make mistakes and learn from
them. And it sounds like this isthe way you're living your life,
that you're on a beautifuljourney of really being alive
(26:25):
and loving toward yourself, andthat it's bringing loving,
healthy people into your life.
Thank
Cait Flanders (26:35):
you for saying that. That definitely feels
true. It feels like like,Actually, I haven't done therapy
in a couple of years now, but itfeels like that's like one of
the last things my therapistsaid to me was she was just
like, I think you don'tunderstand this, or didn't
understand this, but like, Yourjourney has been learning how to
love yourself and and justtreating yourself like with love
(26:55):
and respect. And it's like,yeah,
Colette Fehr (27:00):
I I have goosebumps everywhere when you
say, Yeah, because that's it,right? You can create whatever
life you want, but you've got tohave that foundation and some
self love. And self love doesn'tmean that you have all this self
confidence, right? It just meansthat we, we show up for
ourselves, and we're we'recaring toward ourselves the way
(27:21):
we would be toward anyone elsewe love. People talk about
having courage, but most of usdon't feel very brave when we're
standing there in the face ofour fear and we want the thing.
Perhaps, maybe we don't evenknow what it is. It's on the
other side of the fear. So howdo you see that? What steps do
you take to go on that journeywhen you're scared, but you've
(27:42):
got to act anyway. Yeah,
Cait Flanders (27:44):
one of the first things, and I've really had to
practice this, but it issomething that I probably now
try to remind myself near thestart of this, like, if I'm
trying to make a change now, isI do try to live in a way where
it's all an experiment. Like, Itry not to focus on, you know,
(28:05):
like, if I make this decisionand it's wrong or I decide I
don't like it, I try not to, Iguess, stress too much about
that. Like, it's likeunderstanding you can reverse
out, you know, like you candecide, actually, this wasn't
the right one for me, I canactually just change my mind
again. Like, that's allowed. Solike, if you're curious about
(28:27):
something, just try it. Andlike, if it's not working, you
know, either reverse or changedirection, like it's and like,
you won't actually know how youfeel about the thing until you
start it. So that permission, Iguess, of just like, it's just
an experiment, like you're notmaking decision for the rest of
your life, and you have to holdon to this decision forever and
(28:50):
ever,
Laura Bowman (28:50):
reducing the stakes and, like, really relying
on the process, I know, even inthe book adventures, and opting
out, it's like this extendedmetaphor of the hike, right? Or
the climb, and you're like, youknow, it's not all about the
summit. It's not all about like,this outcome. It's all about,
like, the process of showing upand playing with things and
reworking things when you needto. I love
Colette Fehr (29:13):
it. That's, in fact, really the only way we can
do it. But I think people do getstuck on this, so I'm glad
you're saying it, first of allanalysis paralysis, right? We
want to, like, figure it all outfirst and what's the right
choice. And a favorite phrase ofmine, as I always like to say,
because I approach it much thesame that you do. I'm not
outcome dependent, right? Thatthat is my favorite thing to
(29:36):
remind myself of, because itgives myself permission to fail,
to mess up, to be wrong aboutwhat I thought was going to be
good for me or fulfilling, andto pivot. Not only can you
change your mind, but you canredirect. Few decisions are
really going to wreck your life.
Now, some can, and I've madesome of those too, but even
those, I managed to you. Youknow, make something beautiful
(30:00):
out of so if we can stopthinking about everything, we're
going to try as, Oh my gosh, Ihave to be good enough for it,
and I have to know what it'sgoing to do, and I have to know
how it's going to change. Andwhat if I make a mistake? Who
cares? Maybe you do make amistake, but maybe that mistake
leads to this beautiful newpathway up the mountain that you
never would have discovered. Theother
Cait Flanders (30:23):
thing that's become true over the years is
that, like, one of the ways,like, one of the other ways that
I, I guess, like, can feelconfident in making changes is
I've done it enough to know thatI can handle things, yes, you
know. So it's like, I've madeenough changes and also pivots.
There are ones I've completelyreversed out of. There are ones
(30:45):
that I've just had to sidestepsomewhere, like, there. There's
so many things that that I nowhave almost like this in my
body. There is now memory of,like, I know how to handle it
so, like, even if I'm stillterrified to start, I do have
enough history in my body thattells me I can handle it. So,
like, kind of no matter whatcomes up, like, I don't want to
(31:08):
put myself into like, the dangerzone of, like, way outside my
comfort zone, but I'm like, butlike I can handle being pushed.
Like I can handle Yeah, if thisdoesn't work, if I need to do
something else, like I canhandle that.
Colette Fehr (31:20):
This is why people are stuck, because change is
scary and because we don't havewhat you describe, you have to
build a muscle for it. It's likethe paradox of fear, right?
Which is that the more you dothe thing you're afraid of, the
less afraid you become. But inorder to get to that place, you
have to do the thing you'reafraid of and as so much as
(31:42):
possible for all of us, if we'rewilling to collaborate with fear
and move with fear, instead offeeling like we have to overcome
it and then we'll act
Cait Flanders (31:52):
it's interesting how like listening to you say
that it it brought me back to,I'd say, like, the first six
months of quitting drinking,which because, like, you, I
think it was the word to use.
They're like, willing, notcourageous. It's like, nothing
about that felt courageous. Andactually, sometimes I think it
(32:13):
feels important, almost to,like, share some of these
stories, which is, like, thefirst time you make a big
change, you're probably actuallynot gonna do it, like, with full
honesty and integrity. I foundit so scary to tell my friends
that I was thinking aboutquitting drinking, so I kind of
just lied and said I hadhomework all the time. Like,
honestly, but I'm like, but thatis, like, a thing it took, and
(32:35):
it's like, now if I was gonna dosomething, I have many years of
like, sobriety behind me thatI'm like, Oh, I could easily
talk about the thing, and it's,it's not as scary, but it's like
27 years old thinking aboutquitting drinking, which
definitely affected my entiresocial life, and like all of my
relationships, I didn't feelcourageous with it in the
beginning, honestly, I probablydidn't feel courageous with
(32:58):
sobriety for like, five plusyears. You
Colette Fehr (33:02):
know that's so glad you're saying this. I'm so
glad you're saying this, becausethis is the hardest part of it,
is that we don't feelcourageous, we don't feel brave,
and we don't do it with honestyand integrity at the beginning,
because we're unsure. We'reracked with fear and self doubt,
and we don't even know if we'retaking the right steps. But this
(33:23):
is why action is so important.
Had you never been willing to gothrough that period of
discomfort and self doubt andtaking action without knowing
where it would lead you, youwouldn't be living the kind of
intentional life you
Cait Flanders (33:37):
are. No, it's true, and it's like, that's I'm
like, I'm not necessarilysharing that as advice. It's
more just like, if you're notcomfortable telling everyone
what new thing you're doing youdon't have to like, and with all
changes, that's definitelysomething I've learned. Is like
you learn over time, who are thepeople that you can talk to
(33:58):
about these kinds of thingswith, and who are the people you
can't like, who are the peoplewho are, to be blunt, just gonna
like shit all over it likeyou're gonna learn that and but
then you also learn who thepeople are who are just going to
support you unconditionally andare just going to be happy with
you doing whatever's right foryou.
Laura Bowman (34:15):
I love what you write. I love it. And I wanted
this for the listeners, becauseI want to, like, talk to them a
little bit about when you said,signs of being on the wrong
path. This is from youradventures book I love that that
part and you write, you complainabout the same thing over and
over, for weeks, months, ormaybe even years. You feel
bored, ambivalent or numb abouta job, relationship or
(34:39):
situation. You have troublefalling asleep or staying
asleep. You feel defensive aboutyour choices. You don't like
yourself very much, but youaren't sure why. You don't like
to think about where your moneyis going or being used for. You
feel jealous when you see otherpeople doing things you want to
do. You see the direction youare heading in. And you don't
(35:01):
like it. I was like, Yeah, micdrop, right? Like, so this is
time to, like, look at yourselfand go. Maybe it's time for an
experiment.
Colette Fehr (35:13):
When somebody dares to take the risk, they're
willing to take the risk, to behonest, to be vulnerable, to be
assertive about what they need,and they're witnessed, and space
is held for them, and thatperson gives a loving, accepting
response. There is nothing morehealing and satisfying and soul
(35:35):
enriching than those momentslike I could cry just even
thinking about it. That's likethe sense of what we get to do
as therapists and as people, ifwe can create that kind of
connection with somebody likeeverything else in life is
Laura Bowman (35:49):
gravy. I totally agree with what you guys are
saying, but I want to take usback to like the beginning of
this conversation, where youtake the alcohol out of the
story, you take the shopping outof the story, you get quiet. And
you cried more in that year thanyou probably ever cried in your
whole life. There is a partwhere you have to get connected
with self, you have to releaseemotion, or you are not worth
(36:12):
anything in relationship. You'reso constipated, you're so you're
just like so shut down. Youcan't get there. So there has to
be a time in life where you'regetting really real with self
before you know, and not thatthese things can't happen
simultaneously, but thatemotional growth is like, it's,
(36:33):
there's got to be a phase. It's,
Cait Flanders (36:34):
yeah, it's very true. I also think, like that's
something I appreciate in mypartnership so much as we talk
about how our relationships withourselves is like number one. So
like, if one of us is feelingdisconnected from ourselves,
it's not, we're not going tohave a good relationship. I'm
Colette Fehr (36:50):
so glad you circled back to that, Laura,
before we wrapped up and Irealized we're out of time. But
I mean, Kate, I could just talkto you all day, yes and savor
every moment. You are walkingthe walk and living it and
writing beautifully about it,and you just exude this sense of
(37:13):
warmth and peace. And I hopeeveryone who's listening will
check us out on youtube so thatthey can see what this looks
like, and also hear that itdoesn't start out so pretty and
perfect. It's messy, it's messy,but this is something we can all
do. So thank you for being aninspiration to everyone, and
(37:33):
before we let you go, can youtell us? Tell the listeners how
they can find you and connectwith you. Well, first,
Cait Flanders (37:40):
like and your books first. Thank you for that.
That's such a nice and, like,generous reflection. I would
say, like the number one place,because I am a writer, is like,
I write. I read a newsletter onsub stack. So it's just like,
Kate Flanders, dot, substack.com, I think is the link.
So I'm on some stack, and
Colette Fehr (37:57):
Kate is C, A, I T, just for everyone. Yes. Okay,
Cait Flanders (38:01):
yeah. So Kate Flanders sub stack, I am on
Instagram a little bit again,just Kate Flanders across the
board. I do share pictures of,like, my hikes and places that I
go outside. So if nothing else,maybe you'll enjoy the pictures.
And
Laura Bowman (38:15):
Kate, what are you working on next like, what's
what's the next thing? Yeah. So
Cait Flanders (38:19):
it's interesting now, because I think when people
have asked that question, forthat question over the last few
years, I almost felt like, oh,the answer was, like, nothing.
Because I didn't, I just didn'tknow. I think I was doing a lot
of healing work for the last fewyears, and it's like really hard
to write, especially anythingpersonal, when you're in the
thick of that. But yeah, I'mworking on a book proposal right
(38:40):
now. So it's one of those thingswhere you're like, you can't say
can't say too much, because youneed to find out if a publisher
is even interested. And youknow, maybe they will be, and if
they're not, I do actuallybelieve in it enough. I think I
would even go the selfpublishing route. So we'll,
we'll just see what happens. Buthopefully book number three,
Laura Bowman (38:57):
well, I'm here for it, so me
Colette Fehr (39:00):
too. Thank you so much for being with us and
everyone, all of our listeners,thank you for your support.
Check out Kate's amazing books,and we're going to link to
everything in our show notes andalso her sub stack. And we hope
you got some great insights fromthe couch today. We'll see you
next time you
Kate, welcome back to insights from the couch.
Today we're going to talk toKate Flanders, who is this
really cool young writer whowrote the book The Year of less
and adventures and opting out afield guide to leading an
intentional life. This is awoman who has sidestepped
culture all over the place onher own terms. She stopped
(00:26):
drinking. She's been sober for,I think, seven plus years. She
did an entire experiment with ashopping ban where she just
didn't shop for a year and gotrid of a lot of the extraneous
crap in her house and worked onher own terms as a self
supporting writer, and fromthere, has done multiple solo
(00:50):
travel trips and has livedabroad for, I think, well, over
a year now. So she's going to bepopping on at some point, but
Colette Fehr (00:58):
so cool. I can't wait to talk to her. First of
all, I'm jealous in like, ahealthy way. I don't begrudge
her. I just sort of wish I hadthat life. But I really love
this topic, because we'retalking about creating,
cultivating an intentional lifeon your own terms, according to
your values, and that'll lookdifferent to everybody, but I
(01:21):
love the idea of weeding out,or, as she says, opting out and
getting rid of what'sextraneous, both the material
and physical the emotional, sothat you're really homing down
on, like, what you want. So wewere just chatting before we
started recording on like, howwhen you do this, you lose
(01:42):
people along the way.
Laura Bowman (01:44):
Yeah, when you live in accordance with your
values, certain relationshipswill fall away. And you know, I
was talking about in my own lifethat I have a really close
family member who I alwaysthought I would be super close
with and and I do not have thisperson in my life anymore. It's
my brother, and I was grew up soclose with him, but I was
(02:08):
telling Colette like just to bein relationship with him is a
real compromising of my ownvalues, and it's just too hard.
So you have to be okay withlosses along the way, even
though you're really not okaywith them, you wouldn't choose
them.
Colette Fehr (02:27):
You miss that person, and you there's grief
for that loss. But at the sametime, your relationship with
yourself matters more, and ifsomebody makes you compromise or
abandon yourself in order to bein a relationship with them, you
get to a point where you're notwilling to do that anymore,
amen. So part of the opting outis people, right? Is people, and
(02:48):
I've seen other friends have togo through letting go
friendships. It can be quiteexcruciatingly painful, but what
that point is is where it's morepainful to compromise yourself
and choosing ourselves can bereally hard. It can be and
especially if you have a historyof being a people pleaser. I
(03:08):
can't even say it makes me sickactually. Yeah, I do too, but I
was a massive people pleaser,and still consider myself one in
recovery. But I haven't lostfamily members. I have lost
friends or let go of friends.
Maybe it just happened sort ofnaturally in some cases, and in
other cases, there's been a hardstop. And then, Laura, you were
(03:31):
saying to me when we decided tojust hop on and get started. I
love the term you use that Ilive this sort of monk like
existence, which I feel likeanyone who knows me will find
very hard to believe, yes, buttell me your perspective on
that, because I'm curious howyou saw me during that time, or
what you saw
Laura Bowman (03:53):
you never surprised. Like I've never
ceased to be amazed by you.
Because, like, as soon assomebody thinks they have your
personality nailed. You always,like, you always have a twist.
So I guess I wasn't surprised tosee you. I mean, I think what
were you like, coloring your ownhair and kind of like you did,
like, no nails, and you werelike, walking, ever, running
(04:15):
every day and working out, andyou were like, no out drinking,
yeah, like, which, I mean, Ididn't drink for a year, and you
were super comfortable in thatchoice, like I was. It didn't
bother it didn't seem to botheryou at all, to just choose
yourself there. And you told methere were certain people you
hadn't seen or weren't connectedwith, and you were kind of okay
(04:38):
with it, yeah, I thought it wasa very productive time for you.
Colette Fehr (04:45):
I know, as you say it, I'm like, God, I kind of
missed that time. No, I have tosay it was also during COVID,
yeah, you know, I think I usedCOVID as like a cocooning
because I thought, you know, notreally going anywhere, at least
for. A little while and seeinganyone, that's when I went back
to being brunette, which Idecided isn't really great for
(05:05):
me the way I look, but it savedme money and time. And you're
right, my life got smaller. Ithink. What was good about it, I
wasn't spending money. I wasn'tdrinking. It was a quieter time.
I'm normally pretty social. Ididn't do much socially, but I
felt very connected to myself,to my values, and I was really
(05:28):
at peace. You know, maybe
Laura Bowman (05:30):
I'm not fully neurotypical, I don't know, but
I just I it's hard on me, so Ithe way you're describing life
is like the way I choose tolive. I would choose to live all
the time, although there'salways a tension of like, are
you not engaged enough?
Colette Fehr (05:47):
Are you not in the world enough? And so that that's
my own conversation that I havewith myself. I really wonder for
our listeners, how many of youguys feel pressure to be out in
the world and on andsocializing, or more people at
this age, they have, theyalready opted out of that, and
(06:08):
they're just kind of quiet athome, doing their own thing.
Laura Bowman (06:12):
Let's be honest. I think there's just a push, if
you know, to be relevant, to notmiss out even, you know, I even
have that voice and yeah, alittle FOMO of like, oh, I guess
everybody's sort of doing stuff.
Why aren't I there? Even if youdon't really want to be there,
here she
Cait Flanders (06:30):
is. Yay, hi, yeah, yeah. So
Colette Fehr (06:34):
we're gonna just jump right in, because we
already started chatting. Laura,I'll let you kind of take it
away from here. And Kate, we'reso excited to have you here.
You're a beautiful writer, andyou have a wonderful message to
share with our listeners. Thank
Laura Bowman (06:52):
you so much. Yes, I read your books. I'm almost
through your second book, whichis adventures and opting out,
but I read the year of last inlike, a day, and I was just, I
was so, like, moved andinspired. First of all, it's
like, completely in my languageof I'm always talking to Colette
about, like, the need to, like,really sidestep the current of
(07:14):
culture. Like, I feel like it'sa very fast moving current, and
it will swallow you if you don'tmake some really intentional
choices about where you want toput yourself, but I'm also just
for, like, personal disclosure,a little bit of, like, a just
right OCD type. So, like, thewhole idea of getting rid of
things really appeals to me.
Like, that's my safe space.
(07:35):
Like, when life gets reallyoverwhelming, I'll just start
throwing things out and cleaningmy house. So I was like, Yes, I
want to live in this simple,intentional space. Will you tell
our listeners, like, what washappening in your life that
began the book, the year of lastand what you did with that book?
(07:55):
Yeah.
Cait Flanders (07:56):
Okay, so gosh, at the beginning, it's so
interesting to be reflecting onthis now, because it's been 10
years since I did that, which isalways just interesting,
because, like, the book, someonereads it for the first time,
it's new to them, and you'relike, I did that experience.
Like I started it in July of2014
Laura Bowman (08:12):
How old were you then? By the way, 29
Cait Flanders (08:15):
like, I was a baby. I'm
Laura Bowman (08:16):
so impressed at how young you were at, like,
tackling these things. Yeah, Iwas a baby.
Cait Flanders (08:21):
You know, one of the things that was true was
that, unfortunately, for a bunchof different reasons, I had had
to move, I think it was fivetimes. And in moving so many
times, I mean, I You can't helpbut notice the fact that you're
basically just moving things,like from closet to closet. You
know, you're not even unpackingso much stuff. There's so many
(08:43):
boxes of things that you justseem to own and keep in storage,
but like, you never actually usethem. And I think if you just
lived in one place for a longtime, it's easy to kind of
ignore that, or just feel likethat's kind of like, for lack of
better terms, quote, unquote,normal, like it's just a thing
you do. You know, you just keepsome stuff in storage. But I
think when you move it so manytimes, you really start to see,
(09:06):
I don't even know what some ofthis stuff is. Like, I don't
even know what's in some ofthese boxes. Yeah, and I keep
paying, I mean, I was doing themoving, but you're still paying
to, like, rent a moving truck,to, like, move things around.
And I'm like, What even is allof this stuff? I think, like,
there was also probably justregular kind of life, stress,
work stress, like there weresome different things happening.
(09:27):
The moves were a big part of it.
And then the other thing thatwas true is that a big part of
the decision at first wasactually financial. And it was
that, like, at the time I waswriting a personal finance blog,
and on the blog, I would sharemy budgets. So I would share
them at the start of the month,like, what I kind of thought my
numbers would look like, andthen I would share an updated
budget at the end, and I would,I would say, like, you know, I'm
(09:51):
gonna save 20% of my income. Andactually that that should have
been doable for sort of theamount I was earning where I was
living. Saying, like, I itshould have been doable, but at
the end of every single month, Iwould write, like, basically all
the reasons why I couldn't hitthat and why I was only saving,
like, Max, like, you know, five,810, like, sometimes I get 10 or
(10:13):
so percent, but like, it wasn'tvery much. And I I did that for
12 months in a row. And when youare documenting things and
sharing it for like, you startto notice, hey, like things
about like, what am I writingevery single month? Like, what
is this thing that I'm sharingevery single month? They're not
excuses. But like, yourreasoning, your thoughts, like
(10:35):
that, you see the pattern,right? And so, like, once you
see the pattern, you're like,something isn't right here, like
something doesn't feel quiteright here, like, actually this.
Like, saving more should bedoable. I should be able to do
this. So I think I'm going totry something different. So at
first it was strictly financial.
And the thought was it actuallyhad nothing to do with stuff. At
(10:57):
first it was like, I'm justgoing to try to not shop, like,
I'm gonna try to not buy newthings and see if that helps me
save. So it started, like,purely financial, and then sort
of, I don't know, I got, like,the idea to declutter, I think,
from all the moves, and thenthat just kind of spiraled into
something totally different.
Colette Fehr (11:17):
What did it spiral into? Like, tell us about that
part, because this is such abold, brave thing to do at 20. I
mean, at any age, butparticularly so young. So how
did it evolve and what motivatedyou to turn it into something
deeper?
Cait Flanders (11:34):
My first thought was like, you know, yeah, I'll
do a little Declutter. But Ididn't really know what that
meant. And this was like, Ithink it was actually maybe four
or five months, like, beforeMarie Kondos books had come to
North America. I feel like theycame out, like october 2014 and
so I started this just a fewmonths so it's like I wasn't
following sort of anyone'sguidance. And it's very obvious,
(11:57):
like, when I tell you, what Idid was basically, like, room by
room, I would empty the drawersor the closet or whatever onto
the floor, and I made a hugemess, and then I had to clean it
up. So, like, I don't think, Idon't know if there's a lot of
decluttering experts that say,like, that's what maybe they do.
I don't, I don't really know,but
Colette Fehr (12:17):
I like it. I think it's a great
Laura Bowman (12:18):
strategy forces you to, I mean,
Cait Flanders (12:20):
for some people, it could be that could be just
really overwhelming, and justleave a lot of mess, right? But,
yeah, I was motivated by it. Sowhen I would see the mess, like
I was someone who I wanted andcleaned up, and I don't know, I
was just like, ruthless, like, II started room by room and,
like, it was kind of like, oh,like, the kitchen, there weren't
that that many things. Like,actually, that was a pretty
(12:41):
practical room. You know, Ididn't have a lot of extra. But
then it was things like, likeclothes. Like, there were so
many items of clothing that Iheld on to, but I never wore.
And there's so many stories Irealized that I was telling
myself about why I was holdingon to everything, or, like, what
when I'll wear it one day? Or,like, this dress I used to love,
(13:02):
and it fit me so well, like, allyou know, it'll fit well again
one day, or something, like, itwas all kinds of things. And
eventually, like, I just gotreally, really serious with
myself, and was like, no, like,it was, it was kind of
cutthroat, like it, but it wasvery like, Have I used this? Am
I actually going to use this?
Like, if the answer was no, itgot bagged up and was donated.
So I think, like, you know, Ithought I'll just declutter, but
(13:26):
in the first month, if Iremember correctly, I like, I
donated something like 43% of mybelongings and and so I think,
like, looking at a number likethat, and even just like, how
many times I, like, literallyfilled my car from, like, the
floor to ceiling, all, allsquare inches that you could
find. Like, I think when you seethat, you're like, oh,
(13:46):
something's happening here.
Actually, this is and it's onlyone month, and I'm like, I'm
gonna do this for a year. Oflike, what? What is happening
here? Did
Laura Bowman (13:56):
you miss any of those items? If we're being
absolutely none, to be honest,
Cait Flanders (13:59):
I I don't remember so much of whatever I
got rid of, I hold on to, like,not very much. I have, like, one
box left at my dad's house, butit's just one of those, like,
kind of a U haul, small size.
So, like, it's not very big. Andthat's like, sentimental things.
So like, photos, my high schoolyearbooks, like, I didn't get
(14:20):
rid of things like that. Like, Iliterally was just getting rid
of the things I'm never gonnawear it. I've never used this.
Like, why do I ask this? Why doI Yeah, but no, I've never
missed anything. I remember too.
Like, I didn't do it then, butit's something I've done, like,
over the years, is I've gottenrid of journals that I used to
write in, and I remember afriend being like, Oh, you're,
(14:42):
you're gonna regret that. Don'tdo that. And I'm like, I've
never even regretted that. Yeah,because when I looked at them,
they made me feel anxious, and Ilike, felt sad for my younger
self. I'm like, I don't, I don'tmean this, like nobody. So I
discovered I and I've neverregretted it.
Laura Bowman (14:56):
So one of the things, like Colette and I talk
about and we did it in a. Otherepisode is, I think it was like
a Phil Stutz thing, where hesays that one of the strat one
of the things we do in life iswe rely on all of these like low
level things like consuming foodor shopping or alcohol. And I
know you have your ownrelationship with sobriety, and
(15:19):
we do that to sort of cut theemotional tension in our lives
all the time. You know, we'rewicking away all the stress from
daily life, and so when youstart peeling back these coping
mechanisms, like, what was thatlike to not rely on shopping or
alcohol? Yeah.
Cait Flanders (15:37):
So in that sense, it probably makes like to talk
about the sobriety aspect first,because I stopped drinking
before this. So actually, it'salmost like I'd sort of been on
this journey that I didn't evenreally understand until the
shopping ban. But I think, likeover the years, I had slowly
(15:57):
been getting rid of thosethings, and even earlier than
that, like, the reason I startedwriting about personal finance
was I was documenting paying offa bunch of debt, and so it was
like I was debt free. So thatthat kind of changed, you know,
some of my relationship withmoney, then I well, actually, I
guess I stopped. I, like,recreationally used, like,
certain drugs when I wasyounger. I stopped doing that
(16:19):
when I was, like, 25 I thinkit's been like a so long, like
25 and then I stopped drinkingwhen I was 27 and so I do think,
above all else, like living asober life has changed me more
than anything. Like there areobviously other things that you
can numb yourself with, but Ithink, like alcohol, if you're
(16:40):
drinking the way that I was, is,like, very quickly leads into
just a dissociation, right? Likeit was to be completely
disconnected, like, from my bodyand what was true for me. So I
think, like that has changed me,above all else. Then, yeah, my
spending probably did pick up alittle bit, so I wasn't going
back into debt. But there wereprobably more, I'd say, like
(17:02):
emotional purchases, like, Ididn't actually identify with,
like, retail therapy. From thisthe angle, I guess, of like
treating myself like, I don'tthink treating myself has ever
been something I've really done.
I was more the kind of personwho, like, if I was having a
hard time bad day, would, yeah,buy myself the thing or and kind
of impulsively buy the thing,just, yeah, it's almost
Colette Fehr (17:24):
like a pick me up little pick me up exactly. It's
a little hit of dopamine. So Ithink I did like more
Cait Flanders (17:29):
of that. And then, yeah, the shopping ban
obviously forced me to recognizethat I couldn't do that anymore.
And so it's interesting,because, like, one of the
questions I've been asked beforeis like, okay, like, okay, like,
you know, if you can't drink, ifyou can't shop, like, what do
you do? And I'm like, I cried alot that year. Like, I actually
think the year of less or, like,that year was one of the hardest
(17:50):
years that I've emotionally evergone through. And that's, you
know, there's more that I knowabout myself even now. Like,
because I hadn't even done anytherapy at that point, now I
have. So there's, like, a lotmore I understand about myself
now, but it's like I just had tofeel my feelings, and some of
them were really, really hard,and I had no strategy. So it was
(18:12):
just like, I have to be sad.
There was a lot more selfsoothing. There was a lot more
call a friend or just like, havea hot bath or cry in bed like
you just yeah, get it outemotionally.
Colette Fehr (18:26):
So when you let go of alcohol and shopping things
that you were doing, not so muchas a treat, but kind of a coping
mechanism, not to feel feelings,then all the feelings are there,
and you have to sit withyourself. And so all that stored
up unprocessed emotion thencomes to the surface for you,
(18:48):
and you find yourself crying andfeeling, and you know, maybe in
that really engaged way, for thefirst time, without any true
escapes, or at least the escapesthat you were accustomed to. But
it sounds like even though itwas a very intense year, it led
to a true metamorphosis and abeginning of really knowing and
(19:11):
understanding yourself. Did youfind that that was the pivotal
time that you really metyourself for the first time?
Yeah,
Cait Flanders (19:20):
I do think so. I also really like that you use
the word beginning, because,like, it does sort of feel like
the beginning, right? Like itwas a challenge, an experiment
that I just did for myself, andI learned some things. But yeah,
I think, like it was thebeginning. I think especially if
we, if we just kind of used itfrom the angle, or the aspect of
the fact, like I had to feel myfeelings for the first time.
(19:42):
Like, truly, right? That wasjust the beginning of that. And
I honestly think, like, this isstill, like, probably a lifelong
journey for me, of like, how doyou actually understand yourself
and let yourself feel things,validate yourself, validate the
feelings that you're having, butsomething I did not know. About
myself at 29 is that I couldprobably have complex PTSD and
(20:05):
so like, that's something I'veonly really understood for the
last couple of years. Andthey're like it. It opens my
eyes up so much to like variousthings that I've done in life. I
do think it was just thebeginning. Yeah, and
Colette Fehr (20:16):
you're now, what, almost 40 Yeah, 39 so you're in
a very different phase of lifeand space in life, and maybe
just now, understanding that youprobably have complex PTSD and
everything is a lifelong journeyto work through, right including
that. What would you telllisteners, if you know, if it
(20:37):
were like imagine it was yourbest friend looking to you for
advice. What would you say thatyou've learned that you would
want somebody else to maybeconsider for their own life?
Cait Flanders (20:50):
I mean, I do think a big one, and probably
the thing I will have to work onfor my whole life is to not feel
ashamed of things I've done, or,you know, money I've spent, or
just decisions that I've made,because there's so much stuff
(21:12):
that we we don't understandabout ourselves and and the
reasons behind why we do things,I then think it's like An
interesting journey when youstart to figure out maybe some
of the whys that can lead to awhole bunch of new emotions.
Like, maybe you're angry, ormaybe, like, there's all kinds
of stuff you kind of have tothen reckon with once you start
(21:32):
to understand some of thereasons behind, like, why you
are the way you are. But like,shame has to be taken out of it.
I like that you use the wordcompassion there, I feel like
self compassion and trying toreduce shame, they will be the
skills of my life that I yeah,like, because I just think that
that is what keeps us trapped.
It's what keeps us from takingaction, action, not meaning,
(21:55):
like, you know, I don't know,kind of intense, like,
productivity type things. Justlike, yeah, taking some kind of
action towards changing yourlife. I also like, this is
something that came up more inadventures than it did in the
year of loss. But I think a bigthing that I still have to
remind myself of is that ifsomeone is wanting to change
(22:18):
your life. That does mean yourlife is going to change. And
that that that might sound likea really silly thing to say, but
I don't think that people reallygrapple with that enough. And I
think because, you know, youmake a change, and all kinds of
things change, it's not just,Oh, I've changed this habit.
It's like that could change howyou show up, then how other
(22:40):
people relate to you. It couldchange your relationships. It
could change, you know, allkinds of things. And I also
think it's probably one of thereasons we don't change is
because it does have a rippleeffect, and so many other areas
of your life will be touched on,or, like, impacted. And that's
that's hard, but it's like, Ithink if we don't tell each
(23:00):
other that, then we're not It'snot like a warning, but like
we're doing a disservice by nottalking about the fact that it
will be all encompassing. Youcan just say, like, I would like
to stop, you know, doing thiscoping mechanism, or I would
like to stop dissociating andbeing a be a person who feels
her feelings and has, you know,hard conversations and stuff
like that. It's like, well, thathas a big impact on your life.
(23:23):
It sure does, yeah, and that'sthe way that I live now, and the
relationships I have now, all ofit is so much healthier than
anything I've experiencedbefore. And like, is completely
out of the realm of what I everthought was possible. Like, you
know, thinking about friendshipsor, like, romantic partnership,
like, the connections I have noware so different than anything I
(23:46):
could have even imagined
Laura Bowman (23:51):
I love, that you say that because, like, what,
before you got on the call wewere talking about, you do lose
people. You will lose people.
And that's the thing that Ithink people stay stuck around
is like, well, if I don't go outand drink with these people, I'm
not going to have any friends.
But what I'm hearing you say isthat on the other side of that
(24:11):
is really good stuff, if youcan, like, stay the course.
Cait Flanders (24:15):
That's something my dad always says. My dad is
someone who's sober as well. AndI mean, he's been sober like
forever at this point. Yeah, mydad is someone who's sober, and
I remember him saying to me,it's so much better on this
side. Like it can take a longtime to feel that, or to, like,
really understand what thatmeans for you, you know, but
(24:38):
it's like after years of makingthese decisions that are right
for you, like you know you, notonly you learn so much about
your own values, like what'simportant to you, like you know,
boundaries you might have thatcould be totally different, but
also will create really healthyrelationships to come in
Colette Fehr (24:58):
that is lifelong work. Right to constantly meet
yourself, be with yourself,validate, offer yourself
compassion and grace. And Iparticularly love what you're
saying about letting go of shamefor our younger selves, because
that really keeps us stuck. Ifwe can look back on mistakes we
(25:19):
made and there might be regret.
I really like to tease thatpart. I don't think that you
celebrate every single decisionyou made. I mean, I've done some
stupid, fucked up things thatbrought about some really crappy
consequences. And I look backand part of me goes, oh, like, I
just want to cringe, and italmost feels humiliating, even
(25:40):
just to re witness it in my ownmind. And yet I try to bring
that loving parent, internalparent, part of me there to say,
you know that young Colette didthe best she could with what she
knew at the time, and I learnedfrom those mistakes, and I feel
tenderness toward her, notjudgment and contempt. And I
(26:03):
think when we begin to do that,even though it's not easy, it's
a conscious choice, we begin tofree ourselves to move forward
in the future and cultivate thelife we want, and we give
ourselves permission to continueto make mistakes and learn from
them. And it sounds like this isthe way you're living your life,
that you're on a beautifuljourney of really being alive
(26:25):
and loving toward yourself, andthat it's bringing loving,
healthy people into your life.
Thank
Cait Flanders (26:35):
you for saying that. That definitely feels
true. It feels like like,Actually, I haven't done therapy
in a couple of years now, but itfeels like that's like one of
the last things my therapistsaid to me was she was just
like, I think you don'tunderstand this, or didn't
understand this, but like, Yourjourney has been learning how to
love yourself and and justtreating yourself like with love
(26:55):
and respect. And it's like,yeah,
Colette Fehr (27:00):
I I have goosebumps everywhere when you
say, Yeah, because that's it,right? You can create whatever
life you want, but you've got tohave that foundation and some
self love. And self love doesn'tmean that you have all this self
confidence, right? It just meansthat we, we show up for
ourselves, and we're we'recaring toward ourselves the way
(27:21):
we would be toward anyone elsewe love. People talk about
having courage, but most of usdon't feel very brave when we're
standing there in the face ofour fear and we want the thing.
Perhaps, maybe we don't evenknow what it is. It's on the
other side of the fear. So howdo you see that? What steps do
you take to go on that journeywhen you're scared, but you've
(27:42):
got to act anyway. Yeah,
Cait Flanders (27:44):
one of the first things, and I've really had to
practice this, but it issomething that I probably now
try to remind myself near thestart of this, like, if I'm
trying to make a change now, isI do try to live in a way where
it's all an experiment. Like, Itry not to focus on, you know,
(28:05):
like, if I make this decisionand it's wrong or I decide I
don't like it, I try not to, Iguess, stress too much about
that. Like, it's likeunderstanding you can reverse
out, you know, like you candecide, actually, this wasn't
the right one for me, I canactually just change my mind
again. Like, that's allowed. Solike, if you're curious about
(28:27):
something, just try it. Andlike, if it's not working, you
know, either reverse or changedirection, like it's and like,
you won't actually know how youfeel about the thing until you
start it. So that permission, Iguess, of just like, it's just
an experiment, like you're notmaking decision for the rest of
your life, and you have to holdon to this decision forever and
(28:50):
ever,
Laura Bowman (28:50):
reducing the stakes and, like, really relying
on the process, I know, even inthe book adventures, and opting
out, it's like this extendedmetaphor of the hike, right? Or
the climb, and you're like, youknow, it's not all about the
summit. It's not all about like,this outcome. It's all about,
like, the process of showing upand playing with things and
reworking things when you needto. I love
Colette Fehr (29:13):
it. That's, in fact, really the only way we can
do it. But I think people do getstuck on this, so I'm glad
you're saying it, first of allanalysis paralysis, right? We
want to, like, figure it all outfirst and what's the right
choice. And a favorite phrase ofmine, as I always like to say,
because I approach it much thesame that you do. I'm not
outcome dependent, right? Thatthat is my favorite thing to
(29:36):
remind myself of, because itgives myself permission to fail,
to mess up, to be wrong aboutwhat I thought was going to be
good for me or fulfilling, andto pivot. Not only can you
change your mind, but you canredirect. Few decisions are
really going to wreck your life.
Now, some can, and I've madesome of those too, but even
those, I managed to you. Youknow, make something beautiful
(30:00):
out of so if we can stopthinking about everything, we're
going to try as, Oh my gosh, Ihave to be good enough for it,
and I have to know what it'sgoing to do, and I have to know
how it's going to change. Andwhat if I make a mistake? Who
cares? Maybe you do make amistake, but maybe that mistake
leads to this beautiful newpathway up the mountain that you
never would have discovered. Theother
Cait Flanders (30:23):
thing that's become true over the years is
that, like, one of the ways,like, one of the other ways that
I, I guess, like, can feelconfident in making changes is
I've done it enough to know thatI can handle things, yes, you
know. So it's like, I've madeenough changes and also pivots.
There are ones I've completelyreversed out of. There are ones
(30:45):
that I've just had to sidestepsomewhere, like, there. There's
so many things that that I nowhave almost like this in my
body. There is now memory of,like, I know how to handle it
so, like, even if I'm stillterrified to start, I do have
enough history in my body thattells me I can handle it. So,
like, kind of no matter whatcomes up, like, I don't want to
(31:08):
put myself into like, the dangerzone of, like, way outside my
comfort zone, but I'm like, butlike I can handle being pushed.
Like I can handle Yeah, if thisdoesn't work, if I need to do
something else, like I canhandle that.
Colette Fehr (31:20):
This is why people are stuck, because change is
scary and because we don't havewhat you describe, you have to
build a muscle for it. It's likethe paradox of fear, right?
Which is that the more you dothe thing you're afraid of, the
less afraid you become. But inorder to get to that place, you
have to do the thing you'reafraid of and as so much as
(31:42):
possible for all of us, if we'rewilling to collaborate with fear
and move with fear, instead offeeling like we have to overcome
it and then we'll act
Cait Flanders (31:52):
it's interesting how like listening to you say
that it it brought me back to,I'd say, like, the first six
months of quitting drinking,which because, like, you, I
think it was the word to use.
They're like, willing, notcourageous. It's like, nothing
about that felt courageous. Andactually, sometimes I think it
(32:13):
feels important, almost to,like, share some of these
stories, which is, like, thefirst time you make a big
change, you're probably actuallynot gonna do it, like, with full
honesty and integrity. I foundit so scary to tell my friends
that I was thinking aboutquitting drinking, so I kind of
just lied and said I hadhomework all the time. Like,
honestly, but I'm like, but thatis, like, a thing it took, and
(32:35):
it's like, now if I was gonna dosomething, I have many years of
like, sobriety behind me thatI'm like, Oh, I could easily
talk about the thing, and it's,it's not as scary, but it's like
27 years old thinking aboutquitting drinking, which
definitely affected my entiresocial life, and like all of my
relationships, I didn't feelcourageous with it in the
beginning, honestly, I probablydidn't feel courageous with
(32:58):
sobriety for like, five plusyears. You
Colette Fehr (33:02):
know that's so glad you're saying this. I'm so
glad you're saying this, becausethis is the hardest part of it,
is that we don't feelcourageous, we don't feel brave,
and we don't do it with honestyand integrity at the beginning,
because we're unsure. We'reracked with fear and self doubt,
and we don't even know if we'retaking the right steps. But this
(33:23):
is why action is so important.
Had you never been willing to gothrough that period of
discomfort and self doubt andtaking action without knowing
where it would lead you, youwouldn't be living the kind of
intentional life you
Cait Flanders (33:37):
are. No, it's true, and it's like, that's I'm
like, I'm not necessarilysharing that as advice. It's
more just like, if you're notcomfortable telling everyone
what new thing you're doing youdon't have to like, and with all
changes, that's definitelysomething I've learned. Is like
you learn over time, who are thepeople that you can talk to
(33:58):
about these kinds of thingswith, and who are the people you
can't like, who are the peoplewho are, to be blunt, just gonna
like shit all over it likeyou're gonna learn that and but
then you also learn who thepeople are who are just going to
support you unconditionally andare just going to be happy with
you doing whatever's right foryou.
Laura Bowman (34:15):
I love what you write. I love it. And I wanted
this for the listeners, becauseI want to, like, talk to them a
little bit about when you said,signs of being on the wrong
path. This is from youradventures book I love that that
part and you write, you complainabout the same thing over and
over, for weeks, months, ormaybe even years. You feel
bored, ambivalent or numb abouta job, relationship or
(34:39):
situation. You have troublefalling asleep or staying
asleep. You feel defensive aboutyour choices. You don't like
yourself very much, but youaren't sure why. You don't like
to think about where your moneyis going or being used for. You
feel jealous when you see otherpeople doing things you want to
do. You see the direction youare heading in. And you don't
(35:01):
like it. I was like, Yeah, micdrop, right? Like, so this is
time to, like, look at yourselfand go. Maybe it's time for an
experiment.
Colette Fehr (35:13):
When somebody dares to take the risk, they're
willing to take the risk, to behonest, to be vulnerable, to be
assertive about what they need,and they're witnessed, and space
is held for them, and thatperson gives a loving, accepting
response. There is nothing morehealing and satisfying and soul
(35:35):
enriching than those momentslike I could cry just even
thinking about it. That's likethe sense of what we get to do
as therapists and as people, ifwe can create that kind of
connection with somebody likeeverything else in life is
Laura Bowman (35:49):
gravy. I totally agree with what you guys are
saying, but I want to take usback to like the beginning of
this conversation, where youtake the alcohol out of the
story, you take the shopping outof the story, you get quiet. And
you cried more in that year thanyou probably ever cried in your
whole life. There is a partwhere you have to get connected
with self, you have to releaseemotion, or you are not worth
(36:12):
anything in relationship. You'reso constipated, you're so you're
just like so shut down. Youcan't get there. So there has to
be a time in life where you'regetting really real with self
before you know, and not thatthese things can't happen
simultaneously, but thatemotional growth is like, it's,
(36:33):
there's got to be a phase. It's,
Cait Flanders (36:34):
yeah, it's very true. I also think, like that's
something I appreciate in mypartnership so much as we talk
about how our relationships withourselves is like number one. So
like, if one of us is feelingdisconnected from ourselves,
it's not, we're not going tohave a good relationship. I'm
Colette Fehr (36:50):
so glad you circled back to that, Laura,
before we wrapped up and Irealized we're out of time. But
I mean, Kate, I could just talkto you all day, yes and savor
every moment. You are walkingthe walk and living it and
writing beautifully about it,and you just exude this sense of
(37:13):
warmth and peace. And I hopeeveryone who's listening will
check us out on youtube so thatthey can see what this looks
like, and also hear that itdoesn't start out so pretty and
perfect. It's messy, it's messy,but this is something we can all
do. So thank you for being aninspiration to everyone, and
(37:33):
before we let you go, can youtell us? Tell the listeners how
they can find you and connectwith you. Well, first,
Cait Flanders (37:40):
like and your books first. Thank you for that.
That's such a nice and, like,generous reflection. I would
say, like the number one place,because I am a writer, is like,
I write. I read a newsletter onsub stack. So it's just like,
Kate Flanders, dot, substack.com, I think is the link.
So I'm on some stack, and
Colette Fehr (37:57):
Kate is C, A, I T, just for everyone. Yes. Okay,
Cait Flanders (38:01):
yeah. So Kate Flanders sub stack, I am on
Instagram a little bit again,just Kate Flanders across the
board. I do share pictures of,like, my hikes and places that I
go outside. So if nothing else,maybe you'll enjoy the pictures.
And
Laura Bowman (38:15):
Kate, what are you working on next like, what's
what's the next thing? Yeah. So
Cait Flanders (38:19):
it's interesting now, because I think when people
have asked that question, forthat question over the last few
years, I almost felt like, oh,the answer was, like, nothing.
Because I didn't, I just didn'tknow. I think I was doing a lot
of healing work for the last fewyears, and it's like really hard
to write, especially anythingpersonal, when you're in the
thick of that. But yeah, I'mworking on a book proposal right
(38:40):
now. So it's one of those thingswhere you're like, you can't say
can't say too much, because youneed to find out if a publisher
is even interested. And youknow, maybe they will be, and if
they're not, I do actuallybelieve in it enough. I think I
would even go the selfpublishing route. So we'll,
we'll just see what happens. Buthopefully book number three,
Laura Bowman (38:57):
well, I'm here for it, so me
Colette Fehr (39:00):
too. Thank you so much for being with us and
everyone, all of our listeners,thank you for your support.
Check out Kate's amazing books,and we're going to link to
everything in our show notes andalso her sub stack. And we hope
you got some great insights fromthe couch today. We'll see you
next time you
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