April 2, 2025 • 47 mins
We’re back for Season 4 of Insights From the Couch: Mental Health at Midlife, and we’re kicking things off with a juicy deep dive into the twisted psychological underpinnings of HBO’s The White Lotus. As therapists and mega-fans of the show, we couldn’t resist unpacking the layers of sex, power, betrayal, and just downright messed-up family dynamics in this season. From the uncomfortably intimate Ratcliffe family to the passive-aggressive unraveling of a trio of longtime female friends, we’re peeling back the layers and asking—what’s really going on beneath the surface?
In this episode, we explore themes of toxic relationships, sibling incest, sociopathy, competitive female dynamics, and intergenerational trauma—all through a therapist’s lens. We’re talking character analysis, psychological patterns, and the emotional truth hiding beneath the satire.
Episode Highlights:
[0:02] - Kicking off Season 4 and diving into the dark psychology of The White Lotus.
[2:38] - Introducing the Ratcliffe family and the incest bombshell no one saw coming.
[6:25] - Power, rivalry, and the emerging sociopathic traits in Lachlan.
[11:15] - Southern charm, status obsession, and the mother’s fragile identity.
[14:21] - Over-the-top satire: suicide, wealth, and emotional unraveling.
[16:19] - Incest in pop culture and real-world psychological roots.
[19:58] - The intergenerational transmission of incest and suicidality.
[21:46] - Capitalism and class anxiety: when status is life-or-death.
[22:29] - The unraveling of female friendship: Lori, Kate, and Jacqueline.
[27:57] - Confrontation, gaslighting, and covert female aggression.
[30:58] - Who are these women now? Friendship vs. shared history.
[33:17] - Jacqueline’s betrayal: narcissism, jealousy, and dominance.
[36:53] - Competition, attention-seeking, and the hunger for power.
[38:16] - Amy Lou and Chelsea: emotional honesty and groundedness.
[40:56] - Does Gary have an agenda? The mysterious billionaire’s next move.
[43:07] - Frank’s dark monologue and Rick’s wake-up call.
[45:19] - Looking ahead to the finale and how it might all unfold.
[47:01] - A toast to The White Lotus and a possible finale viewing party.
Resources:
💻 Download our free guide: Toxic Relationships & Power Dynamics: How to Recognize, Manage & Break Free → insightsfromthecouch.org
📧 Got thoughts or theories? Email us at: info@insightsfromthecouch.org
Make sure to visit the “Resources” page on our website www.insightsfromthecouch.org to download the worksheet and take ways that accompany each episode. This is hugely important as we are now creating a download that is unique to each episode and working hard to create an email list to support our programming offerings moving forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:02):
Scott, welcome back everyone. To the first
episode of season four ofinsights from the couch, mental
health at midlife. We've got agreat episode today. We're going
to be talking about all the darkstuff and the White Lotus, the
psychological behind the scenes,sex, power and betrayal, the
twisted psychology of whitelotus, we could not resist
(00:24):
because Laura and I are bothaddicted to the show, so we're
going to dive in and talk aboutwhat's going on behind the
scenes with these characters, orat least our take as therapists.
And we want to hear from youtoo, your thoughts, your
questions, your comments, what'sgoing to happen in the show. So
please reach out to us at info,at insights from the couch.org.
(00:45):
I am so excited to dig into thisand talk about all the fucked up
stuff going on and the WhiteLotus. So let's get into it, and
you guys remember to go to ourwebsite, insights from the
couch.org. We are going to havea download for you on toxic
relationships and powerdynamics, how to recognize them,
(01:09):
how to manage them, and how toget out of that, out of them. So
don't forget to check that outafter we dish on the white the
White Lotus. All right, let'stalk about it, because there's a
lot to get into.
Laura Bowman (01:21):
I'm so into it. I just, I love Mike White's
writing. I love these people. Ilike become so obsessed on the
granular details of thesehumans, everyone we all know,
somebody like every one of them,yeah, well, most of them, I
guess. Well,
Colette Fehr (01:38):
okay, just before we get into the psychological
dynamics. I don't like thisseason as much as last season.
It's a slow
Laura Bowman (01:46):
build, right there, very it's an agonizingly
slow build, yeah, but I likesome I love the rat lift family,
Colette Fehr (01:54):
yes. So let's go there first, because they are so
complicated. And of course, thebrother incest thing. Well, I
want to dig into that a littlebit, but just even the dynamics
of the family. And you know, itwas modeled after like Mike
White told them to watchsouthern charm on Bravo, which
you've probably never seen, butI why I've seen it. I've seen
(02:15):
episodes of it. Okay, so he toldthe father to model this guy, T
Rav, who's just a completedouche bag, like this
politician, who has a string oflike, sexual assault allegations
and baby mamas, yeah, yeah. Sothat because the the main actor
(02:35):
is British, and I know
Laura Bowman (02:38):
that's he pulls him off really convincingly.
Colette Fehr (02:41):
Okay, so what do you what stands out to you about
the family, other than the factthat the brothers giving the
other brother a hand chop?
Laura Bowman (02:48):
I mean, that's actually like, that was so came
out of left field for me, alittle bit, even though, really
why it should have, because,like, it was foreshadowed quite
well. Just, I just, you knowwhat the Lachlan character who
ends up giving the hand job. Isaw him very much like, and I
don't know how many, I'massuming anybody listening to
this with any interest followshas seen all of the seasons, but
(03:12):
the first season, there was likea brother who was kind of like
the good guy who was, like,seemingly so innocent and like
outside the family drama. And Ithought that this kid was that
initially, and now I'm seeinghim as something quite
different. I
Colette Fehr (03:29):
agree. I think he's actually got the like
sexual deviance issues in thesense of incest, like
Laura Bowman (03:36):
some real deep pathos there. Absolutely what
Colette Fehr (03:40):
I thought at the beginning is that the daughter
was that character, the one whowas not corrupted by power and
money that she wanted to be, youknow, in the Buddhist monastery
and sort of issue all of thesocial bullshit her family
imposes on her. But I picked upon Lachlan seeming to be very
(04:02):
sexually interested, I thinkpotentially even in his sister
and his brother.
Laura Bowman (04:08):
I think you're right on that. I initially
thought that he looked at hisbrother like, Oh, you poor
unfortunate douche bag. But nowlike, that's all shifted.
Colette Fehr (04:20):
Yeah, yeah. But see, I didn't think that. Okay,
here's my take, and then yougive me your take. Yeah, I think
from the beginning and even inthe first episode, first of all,
I was like, this family is soweird, and not just the fact
that they're superficial andridiculous, which they're that
too, but I just thought they areso messed up, and there was so
much sexual overtone from thejump with the way the brother
(04:42):
was preoccupied. The Saxon waspreoccupied with what, what's
the sister's name? Again, Ican't believe I watched Piper.
Thank you. You know, preoccupiedwith whether or not Piper's had
sex, like picking her up. Imean, my brother and I don't
like touch each other. It's justweird. And then when. Saxon went
in to the bathroom that firstnaked scene, lachlan's gaze. I
(05:06):
got the feeling that for Saxon,it was just like, you know,
whatever. I don't give a shit.
I'm gonna walk around freely infront of my brother. But I felt
like Lachlan had a sexual gazeeven at his brother's body in
that first episode. And now whatI think is that Saxon is the,
you know, finance bra doucheyes, that everyone loves to
(05:29):
hate, right? He's the guy we allknow, one of those, yes, yes,
just totally detestable. But Idon't think he has the same real
sexual I think he wanted to,like, bond with the brother and
help it laid. But I thinkLachlan could turn out to be, I
don't know where this is gonnago. And the crazy thing is,
(05:51):
like, by the time this episodeairs on Wednesday, there will be
another episode out that wecan't talk about. I know
Laura Bowman (05:58):
we can't talk about. And you know, I think
that this just shows that Iwasn't even really paying
attention to Lachlan that much.
Yeah, I kind of saw him as likea non entity, till he started,
like, really throwing them backat, like, the Full Moon Party,
and looks at the brother andsaid, like, one day I'm gonna
own you. And I'm like, What thefuck? What do you like of that?
I was like, Oh, wow. Like, youwant to take this guy down. You
(06:21):
want to bring him down a peg.
Somehow,
Colette Fehr (06:25):
competition, yeah, rivalry,
Laura Bowman (06:28):
like, you know, you see yourself somehow as
stronger than this guy, like youhave his number, and somehow he
just seems more. Maybe it'spredatory, like a little
sociopathy, but he seems quitecomfortable with himself,
whereas Saxon is quiteuncomfortable with himself. And
(06:51):
like, when this whole thinghappens, he just, like,
unravels, like us, you know,right,
Colette Fehr (06:56):
which I found his portrayal of that whole aspect
very believable, just how, firstof all, I've never been on
ecstasy, but I can imagine ondrugs that, you know, we're
biological animals, I'm sure allsorts of things like you insert
another person, your body'sgonna respond. So I don't have
that much trouble seeing howthat could go. But I do think it
(07:19):
speaks to another possibilitywith Lachlan, like giving the
hand job, that maybe it's not somuch that he's sexually
attracted, although I reallydid, do feel like I've seen
those longing gazes, Althoughwho knows with Mike White's
writing, but maybe it's moreabout Lachlan saying, This is
How I can destroy this brother,he will never recover, and I
(07:43):
don't care. Maybe he does havesome sociopathy, and he just
doesn't care, or some deviance.
He's missing a chip, if youwill, and he knows that like the
one thing he could do that willdestroy this man's sense of self
is to have him live with thefact that his brother gave him
an orgasm.
Laura Bowman (08:02):
God, it's just yeah and, but, you know, then
with with his sister and I likemore to come there, because now
they're in the monasterytogether, yeah,
Colette Fehr (08:10):
I was like, is he gonna, like, make a move on her?
But, I mean, yeah, but if it'spower and, like, ruining,
because he does seem to reallycare about her, genuinely care,
yeah, then that would not apply.
But if it's more sexualattraction to one's siblings,
then it could. I know that wasmy first thought. I'm like,
you're gonna spend the night.
Oh, my God, what's he gonna doto you? Right? Put on a girdle,
Laura Bowman (08:36):
protect your genitals. I mean, like, I don't
know. I mean, yeah, so, sothere's, like, more questions
than answers there. Like, wasthat just a total one off? But
it doesn't, it doesn't seem tobother a lot of them at
Colette Fehr (08:49):
all. No. And I thought this was fascinating,
because, you know, you don'treally see a lot of sibling
incest in TV. I mean, I can'tthink of a time reason Flowers
in the Attic. How could I forgetthat? I mean, that was made into
a movie. Did you read thosebooks? I
Laura Bowman (09:10):
watched that movie. I don't remember incest
in the movie, though. Oh, myGod. Okay. Well, was it between
the older bro, the oldersiblings when they're stuck in
the attic? I think it's
Colette Fehr (09:19):
between the olders and the youngers. It's so funny.
I think it's VC Andrews. When Iwas young, dark, I read every
one of those books. And shocker,they were my favorites, not
because of incest, just becauseit was like, dark and power,
yeah. And that's my that's mything.
Laura Bowman (09:34):
The grandmother poisoning the kids in the Yes,
yes.
Colette Fehr (09:37):
It was so good.
But, you know, it speaks to aninteresting point. I don't think
we often see two brothers. Ican't think of a time I've seen
two brothers in an incest caseon television or in literature.
How
Laura Bowman (09:50):
about the younger brother? Dominique? I hope I'm
not ruining this is a spoileralert episode. So like, if you
want to see all these things,don't listen. But there's. A
scene in the brutalist wherethis guy, who's the benefactor
of of the architect, he takesadvantage of him and, like,
sodomizes him while he's drunk.
And it's a and it's you get thesense that it's not entirely
(10:14):
sexual. You get the sense thatit's an act of dominance.
Exactly,
Colette Fehr (10:22):
yeah, exactly same
Laura Bowman (10:23):
sense, a little bit with Yeah.
Colette Fehr (10:26):
And, you know, another possibility along those
lines is that the brother, toyour point about you didn't even
really pay attention to Lachlan.
I think that's the dynamic inthe family. Yeah, everybody else
is so dominant in their own way,and he just sort of fades into
the wallpaper. So it's alsopossible that this kid's just
looking for ways to fit in, waysto be seen, ways to find
(10:49):
intimacy, and they've taken thisreally virulent pathological
form. And it wouldn't be totallyshocking, because sometimes when
incest arises in families. It'sa function of enmeshment of an
abusive family. And even thoughthey present and think of
themselves as this idealSouthern family, their dynamics,
(11:10):
all of them are extremely toxic.
Laura Bowman (11:16):
Yeah, you think the moms like swallowing, like
benzodiazepines. Well now, nowher husband is, I mean, the
family is about to implode, andthe biggest concern that the
mother seems to have is like,Will Lachlan go to like UNC
Chapel Hill or Duke,
Colette Fehr (11:31):
I know, I know, or will, will Piper stay in
Thailand and ruin her prospects?
It's such a throwback to like,the Bronte days, you know, Jane
Eyre and Sense and Sensibilityin a much more toxic form. This
mother's living out of an oldplaybook where, like, your
children have to be socially,strategically placed, and that's
(11:53):
all that messed
Laura Bowman (11:57):
with it. And, I mean, that's the thing you get,
is like how fragile her identityis like, when she contemplates,
like, not having money, she'slike, I'm not sure I'd want to
live and, I mean, she's that'shonest, like she thinks that is
that would be the absolute deathof her identity. Because, I
mean, she's constantly talkingabout, like, our values and
(12:18):
people like
Colette Fehr (12:20):
us, right? This is where I have to say. And I love
Mike White, because I'm a bigsurvivor fan, and he was on
survivor. And I do think there'sso much great stuff in these
shows. I've watched everyepisode of every season, and I
can't wait to dissect itafterwards, yeah, but I do have
a criticism of his writing.
Personally, I think a lot of itis very heavy handed and on the
(12:40):
nose.
Laura Bowman (12:43):
Well, it is, and I know what it kind of makes it
fun. Like, even the names, like,I don't know if you've caught
this, but like, the characternames are very like, like,
Dickens style. Like, yeah, youknow, Leslie Bibbs character is
named Kate bore like, she's theboring boar. And it's like, so I
just think it is very on thenose, and I, and I kind of think
(13:04):
that's the kind of fun about it.
And then it it jumps into thefact that Tim realizes the
husband, like, maybe I have topull off a murder suicide. Maybe
it's not even compassionate toleave this woman behind. Yeah,
yeah,
Colette Fehr (13:16):
no, I actually believed that that second
suicide I really bought into, Ithought for a minute, like, it
happened.
Laura Bowman (13:23):
I almost, I almost think that maybe he has to kill
his son too. Like, I'm not sureSaxon could take the ego death
of not being the, you know, theprotein shake heir to a big
like, you know, I don't knowwhat kind of fortune. I don't
know. I
Colette Fehr (13:40):
think he has time to rebound. I don't think Saxon
can take the ego death of havinggotten a hand job from his
brother.
Laura Bowman (13:47):
I think he's very
Colette Fehr (13:48):
fragile in lots of ways. Yeah, we might have to
kill him off for that alone. Butlet me just be clear, I like the
over the top and on the nosesatirical component of the
characters. Like there
Laura Bowman (13:59):
was another moment I think this was the first time
you said to me that you didn'tlove this was the moment that
Carrie Coon's character, whoplays Laurie, you know, sees her
friends and she knows they'retalking shit about her, and she
just like, has, like a primalscream and like weeps. And it's
like we didn't need to see thisto know how that impacted her,
Colette Fehr (14:21):
right, right? And not in that way. Yes, some of
it's just to let the charactersbe more subtle in their dialog,
because we've heard you've drawnthe character so well, but Okay,
so before we move on to becauseI'm dying to talk about the the
three female friends, yeah. Butanything else you want to say
(14:43):
about this tragic North Carolinafamily? And do you think, I
mean, I could care less whodies? I find that to be the
least interesting. I know it'sthe conceit of the show, but
it's like, who cares
Laura Bowman (14:54):
to me, I do. I do find it funny how the gun is
being passed around. Like weknow the gun is used. We. A gun
is used, like we don't know, tothe max, totally. I mean, I am
surprised, just from like ahuman level, that Tim is even,
like standing after drinking asmuch and like popping all these,
like benzos, that he can evenform a coherent sentence, yeah,
(15:17):
but who knows, or
Colette Fehr (15:18):
that she can go through withdrawal if she's
taking benzodiazepines daily.
You know, benzodiazepines andalcohol are the only two drugs
that can kill you. Yeah,seizures,
Laura Bowman (15:29):
yeah. She seems like not as annoyed as you would
expect, or as like panicstricken as you would expect a
person who really lost their
Colette Fehr (15:36):
pills. And so this is where it goes back into the
caricature, and we just sort ofhave to accept that. But it
seems like it can't be the dadwho dies by suicide, because
that's too obvious. It's tooobvious, right? And I feel like
it's gonna be, I don't I don'tknow anyone's name. Who's the
like sweet little Thai couple,the unrequited love. I could see
(15:59):
him dying. Yeah,
Laura Bowman (16:01):
he seems very like sacrificial lamb, right?
Colette Fehr (16:04):
Yes, yes, definitely. Like, he doesn't
Laura Bowman (16:07):
know he's surrounded by vipers. Like,
they're always like, you know,showing those two like, thug
bodyguards. And he's like, hewants to be a body. He's never
going to be a bodyguard, buthe's going to get offed by one
of them, probably.
Colette Fehr (16:19):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Oh, and you know, what
else I wanted to just say,because, just because I think
it's interesting, and we werechatting about this before,
before we get too away from theincest thing that that Wester
Marc effect, because I wastrying to understand, what are
these dynamics. I will say, Inall my years of therapy, doing
trauma therapy, so many clientswho have been through Sexual
(16:41):
Abuse Incest in their families,but not siblings. I've never had
a client, have you like brothersister?
Unknown (16:51):
I have, oh, my God. Oh, wait. I have, wait,
Colette Fehr (16:54):
I have two. I have, and I have what I haven't
had. Sorry, I have, you knowwhat I haven't had? That. I'm
thinking of two brothers. Ihaven't had a brother perpetrate
another brother. I've had lotsof brother sister.
Laura Bowman (17:09):
I've had that at like, I don't even want to talk
about it. It's too much. Yeah, Ican't talk about it. Okay, add
some wacky stuff.
Colette Fehr (17:16):
Okay, yeah, but I do think, again, it's not
something we see in pop culture.
Obviously, it goes on. It goeson right. But trying to
understand how that happens. Andobviously there are multiple
reasons, but this western Marceffect, this anthropologist in
the 1890s discovered thatthere's a genetic reason, an
(17:37):
evolutionary reason that kidswho grew up in the early years
together typically don't developa sexual attraction to one
another, even if they're notbiologically related. And it's
more than just I used to thinkit was the way You're
conditioned, like you learnedthis is my brother, right? So
(17:58):
you just don't think of theperson that way. But actually,
it's really a genetic thing thatwe just don't develop attraction
to people we grew up with whenwe're kids. Because if there's
incest among siblings, it canlead to major genetic problems,
and it's not as advantageous forprocreation. I Oh, no,
(18:19):
absolutely,
Laura Bowman (18:22):
you know. But I wanted to say that this is my
own gut feeling. I don't I'm notsaying that there's even
research behind this, but I dofeel like when there's incest in
like a way that's perpetratedover a long period of time, or
even when it's perpetrated inadulthood, which I've seen,
(18:42):
yeah, wow. I always feel likewith the individual perpetrating
there's like, a decent amount ofsociopathy at playing
interesting. There's justsomething off. It's, it is a
little bit of an act ofdominance. It's a little bit of,
like this sexual liability,where they can, they can, kind
(19:03):
of take advantage of anything,brother, sister, partner,
Colette Fehr (19:08):
I think that's a viable scenario. I just don't
know if I think that's the onlyscenario. Oh, I know it's not
the only I just Yeah. I mean, Ialso think that the if you're
abused by a parent or stepparent, then we know that kids
will then act out that areabuse, often on their siblings.
But I don't think that's thecase with Lachlan, and also it
(19:30):
may be a result of the fact,again, in a very pathological
way, but that he feels totallydisconnected, and he's trying to
find ways not only to get powerand dominance, but to be close
to these siblings, I suspectthat's not it. It's more
deviant. But I think sometimesthe incest can come from like a
very unhealthy enmeshment thatjust doesn't set the right
(19:53):
boundaries. Yeah, depending onwhat's going on at the executive
subsystem, I
Laura Bowman (19:58):
think you're absolutely right, and I. Also
want to say, because we'd beremiss not to, is that, you
know, incest is one of theseintergenerational transmission
processes. So like, if it's inyour family for multiple
generations, it tends to getpassed down like a bad yeah. And
Colette Fehr (20:14):
if it's in your family at all, it can get passed
down, right? Yeah, yeah. Andsame thing with suicidality, I
think sometimes people don'trealize that we're seeing this
father and the Ratcliffe familywho it's a situational crisis
that he doesn't know how to tellhis wife. Not only will his wife
(20:35):
not be okay, she will probablyhate him for it. I mean, he's
really shit the bed, and thatmay prompt him to take his life.
I don't think it will, but he'sdefinitely contemplating it. But
for a lot of people, suicidalityis more endogenous, meaning, you
know, it's genetically passed.
It's part of the brainstructure. And I think a lot of
people have troubleunderstanding that. Some
(20:57):
people's brains tell them allthe time like you should really
die, you're better if you're nothere. And people who don't have
that sometimes are very hard onpeople. How could you do this to
people in your life? And youjust really don't know what
people go through 100%
Laura Bowman (21:15):
and you know, the thing that we haven't talked
about is just the capitalisticgrind that this family is a part
of, and this class system where,you know, you do a ten million
deal for with a buddy, butthat's like, the, you know,
that's the price of being inthat class, yep. And, I mean,
I'm waiting for the credit cardto stop working. I know. I'm
(21:39):
waiting for somebody to go like,ma'am, we tried to process your
massage to work. Okay,
Colette Fehr (21:46):
so let's talk about the three female friends,
because love it. It'sfascinating. And I think this is
one so many of us women at ourage are really relating to, you
know, because they're a littlebit older. Even though they're
they're younger than we are.
They're, you know, right, aren'tthey around 40 years old? I
think to me, this is the bestwriting of the show, really
(22:09):
showing the competitive natureof female relationships for some
people, and it's fascinating towatch this train coming off the
tracks with these three what,what's your take?
Laura Bowman (22:29):
Ah, so many takes.
Like, I mean, it's like, thisold friend group that, I mean,
everybody's trying. I mean,they're all trying to look
great, except for Lori'scharacter, who's, like,
obviously, been through a lot,and so she's not on the same in
the same league as her, like,rich Texas friend played, you
know, Kate, and then
Colette Fehr (22:52):
she's wealthy, she's successful, she's wealthy,
Laura Bowman (22:54):
but she's like, a New Yorker. And, you know, I
actually listened. And ifanybody, like, really wants to
go deep into the White Lotus.
They have a whole podcast, yeah?
And, like, I heard her talkabout her character, and they
said that they made, like,really intentional details like
that. She was always a shade offwith her clothes, yeah,
Colette Fehr (23:12):
yeah. She doesn't have the panache, but she's not,
like,
Laura Bowman (23:15):
even her nail color is wrong, yeah. Like, that
was the same amount of effort.
She doesn't dress as well. She'sfrumpy compared to the other
two. She's from, but she's notof a different socio economic
status. That's what I waspointing out, right? But I
right, but I think she all ofher inadequate and adequacies
come into sharp relief aroundthose two and and then even the
(23:37):
Texan feels her inadequacies insharp relief to Jacqueline,
who's like the famous person. Sothey're just nobody's feeling
good enough. You know, withhere, they are supposed to be
friends having this great, like,time together, nobody. I mean, I
don't even know if Jaclyn isfeeling good enough because her
(23:57):
boyfriend isn't tech her husbandisn't texting her.
Colette Fehr (24:02):
Well, I think Jacqueline is actually the one
who's most feeling not goodenough
Laura Bowman (24:07):
because she Yeah, like she's but she's constantly
she's the one that has thatpiece of like being constantly
on the take for male attention,right? And
Colette Fehr (24:16):
that is the biggest gaping hole sign of not
feeling good enough, if there'sever been one. I mean, you're in
your 40s, whatever age you are,and you're so desperate for male
attention that you have to sleepwith this, like Russian that
you've been pushing on your onyour friends,
Laura Bowman (24:34):
as if that she needs to get laid and have a
great time, and then you justswoop in at the last minute and,
like, grab him up. But
Colette Fehr (24:41):
that was the part that I found the least
surprising. Like, we've all hadsome version of that where,
like, a friend one ups you, andthis is what I thought was so
under interesting about thepsychology of it that we've
chatted about. You know thatwomen have more of an indirect
aggression. Right? And we knowthat we're all comparative,
(25:03):
right? We're always trying tojudge how well we're doing by
comparing ourselves to those inour social group, but that men
tend to be outright aggressive.
Like, if there's a problem, menwill, like, have a physical.
Laura Bowman (25:14):
Yeah, what the fuck you doing? Dude? Like, just
get right face called
Colette Fehr (25:18):
out, or it's enacted physically or verbally
aggressively. Women tend to beindirect and covert, and that
actually the way women try toexert like alpha status and
dominance, right, one uppingeach other, is through
backstabbing, backhandedcompliments, which we know are
insults, you know, taking theguy that you wanted to have, and
(25:42):
I don't even care about him, butI can have him like that, and
you can't even score him. And myneeds are right? It's this. So I
just see them power, playingeach other constantly, and that
also the triangulation of whichso many women do, let's be
honest. And it has variousdegrees of meanness to it that
(26:05):
you leave the table and it'slike, oh, Laura, you know that
outfit. I wonder if she's goingthrough a hard time. She doesn't
look like herself today. Did?
She came a little way.
Obviously, I would never shakingtoo much. Her eyes look puffy.
That engaging quickly? Yes, thatis all a way to exert dominance.
Laura Bowman (26:26):
This is why women don't want to be friends with
other women. Sometimes it's likethey just have been bitten by
this too many times. And yeah,there is no safety often
Colette Fehr (26:37):
of women, right?
But this also makes me reflecton how fortunate I've been,
because I just do not havefriends like this. For the most
part, I've, I've known peopleand I want, I don't want them in
my life, but like my closestfriends, like even growing up,
other than in middle school, Ihad an incident, and it was like
(26:58):
handled. But in high school,even I just don't feel like my
friends were like this, and Idon't have any friends who are
like this. Now, I know,
Laura Bowman (27:08):
I mean, I've, I've certainly had friends that were
like this, and have graduallypulled away, and I don't, I
don't tolerate that in my life,like, if I sniff that out, I'm
like out of there very quickly.
Me too. Me too. But in thissituation with these three
friends, like they've, they're,like, historical friends, yeah,
and I'm, I'm just reallycurious, too, what you thought
(27:31):
about the moment where they'resitting by the pool and, like,
Lori does her best to confrontJacqueline, like, hey, we
haven't changed. Like, thisstuff went on in the 10th grade,
like, you're still the same. Themoment that, like, just blew me
away, was that Jacqueline justabsolutely dismissed it, like,
that's not even you're like, sofar off base, like, the
(27:52):
gaslighting of like, you don'tsee what you see. You don't know
what you
Colette Fehr (27:57):
know. I know you know what's happening,
Laura Bowman (28:01):
what it just came over like nothing happened.
Yeah, bullshit. We don't knowwhat happened.
Colette Fehr (28:07):
And she also knows that nobody's gonna believe
that, and doesn't care. I mean,Jacqueline is that creature who
is so narcissistic, so egoic,she's gonna get what she wants,
no matter what, whatever makesher feel good and fills her up
she's gonna do no matter how itimpacts others. What I liked was
(28:28):
that I liked that Loriconfronted her. I loved that,
yeah, and that she called itout. And I was not surprised by
Jacqueline's reaction. And then,is it Kate? What's the other
friend? Okay, yeah, I alwayswant to call them by their
actress name. I know she waslike, you know, I think one of
(28:49):
the parts I love the most aboutKate, I feel like I've been this
person, but I found that to beso human and relatable. And then
they get back to the pool, andthey're splashing and throwing
up their tops and she's in herpajamas, like, with
Laura Bowman (29:03):
that guy, she's like, being held hostage by that
guy who's like, trying to tellher, like, the life story. Yeah,
okay, night's over. But
Colette Fehr (29:11):
I loved that. Also that was, like, exerting a
boundary, like they do havethese little moments of of
healthy behaviors. I also thinka component of it. I don't
relate to the mean girl thing,but I have definitely known
those people, and we certainlyhave clients who go through this
in their friendships. I mean,it's common, unfortunately, but
(29:32):
I also thought it wasinteresting the idea of friends
that are formed because I'msomeone who's friends with and
keeps in touch with people fromearly in my life and our
personality can be so the same,but some of your friends maybe
are people that you wouldn'tnecessarily become friends with
today. Yes, you know, it wasborn of the shared experience,
(29:53):
which is a huge part of howfriendships form. You're in the
same school, you live in thesame dorm, right? These shared.
Experiences, and now inadulthood, we really pick more.
Who do we connect with, at leastif you're not out for
superficial friendships. Like, Idon't want to be friends with
you because you go to the samecountry club. I want to be
(30:13):
friends and I don't even go to acountry club. I want to be
friends with you because youmight have nothing in common
with me, but like, I like howyou are. I like who you are. I
enjoy my conversation with you.
I feel connected to you. Thereare certain things we might be
interested in, we can talkabout. So to me, these
characters also are people whowould never form a friendship
now,
Laura Bowman (30:35):
right? And I love how like, Kate has gone to Texas
and become like, clearly, like aRepublican by the Republican
Country Club set, and herfriends are just like looking at
her sideways. Yeah, they do nothave relatable lives. No. Where
do you see these three headedWhat do you see? Like? Do you
see, like a climax moment inthis
Colette Fehr (30:58):
I think it's very possible they don't like each
other. They don't, it's not evenreally, oh, we're close friends,
and we have little competitivestreaks. They don't like each
other, and they're
Laura Bowman (31:11):
not, like, particularly relevant to each
other, like, especially like,you know, Lori's like, going
through this, you know, she's anattorney in New York City, she's
paying like what palimony to herex husband. I mean, she does not
relate to these women.
Colette Fehr (31:29):
No, yeah, no, she's developed herself in ways
that they haven't. She has moresubstance just as a character,
more gravitas. She might have analcohol use disorder. Yes, I
think so. I think she does havea drinking process. Yeah. I
mean, substance use may besituationally induced. I mean, I
had that during my divorce too,and I'm not, yeah, an alcoholic,
(31:51):
but I definitely acted like analcoholic and drank like an
alcoholic during my divorce atat phases. So I think that's
very relatable also. But I thinkeven before Jacqueline stole her
man, I think Lori doesn't haveany respect for either of the
other characters fundamentally,
Laura Bowman (32:10):
yeah, and it's a great point, but it doesn't stop
the two of them from making herfeel like shit, right, right?
Colette Fehr (32:18):
Because, at the end of the day, mean girl
behavior hurts, even when you'rein your 50s, your 40s, you're
saying it hurts being excluded.
Hurts being gossiped about. Imean, I have had things like
that happen where I wasn'tincluded or invited, or someone,
oh, I'm thinking of a couplethings where someone made
comments to me in front of otherpeople that like were very
(32:41):
thinly veiled put downs. Yeah,it was. It's really painful,
even if you know in your mind,who cares? I don't need this
person. I don't want a friendlike that. We're still human,
and it's painful. Do you think,
Laura Bowman (33:01):
on Jacqueline's part, that the whole thing is
conscious, like her, sort oflike throwing Valentine at
Laurie? Do you think that's aconscious realization, like at
the last, you know, really, I'mgonna bag him at some moment.
Colette Fehr (33:17):
I could see it going either way. My take on the
way it unfolded on the show wasthat, you know, Jacqueline
probably was, to some degree,fine with it if Laurie was with
Valentin. Valentin, I've heardhis name pronounced every which
way, but once her husband wasn'tcalling her back. And she knows
what that means. I mean, oh, myphone wasn't charged for a week.
(33:40):
You know, come on, and herhusband's younger. And of
course, anytime a couplepublicly proclaims out the wazoo
how in love and perfect theyare. You know, their
relationship sucks, right? It'sthat whole thou doth protest too
much. You know, my young husbandwill never get sick of each
(34:00):
other sexually, we're like, sointo each other, right? Which
was such a death now, right?
Yeah. And also, it's such arubbing salt in the wound thing
to say to someone going througha divorce. It's so toned down
death. But I think when sherealizes, wow, my husband is
blowing me off. He's totallybagging some hot little young
actress. She's like, going toget mine right now exactly. And
(34:22):
then the needs of her ego Trumpfriendship, and she just doesn't
care. You know, I don't knowthat she went into if the
husband was paying attention toher, I don't know that she would
have interfered, but I stillthink she could have on the
dance floor if it was feelinggood. And
Laura Bowman (34:40):
did you notice the moment where Jacqueline's like,
grinding with the Russians andthe girls and looking at the
women, and that is just likegassing her up like she just is
loving. And I think this isreally important to talk about
in female friendships, or justfemale aggressive. Behavior,
(35:00):
yes, is that to get another girlor woman fixated on you, like
jealously in a jealous way, forsome women, is like the greatest
high of all highs. I
Colette Fehr (35:13):
am so happy that I don't have one ounce of that in
me. I am not competitive withother women. I know I have an
abundance mindset. Well, that'swhy we're friends, because I
don't, I literally cannot loserespect faster for someone than
when they're like that. Not onlydo I have an abundance mindset,
and it's part of it, I have suchwonderful female friends. I love
(35:37):
them. I want them to succeed.
I'm not mad at them when theyhave something i don't i don't
have, or that I even if it'ssomething I want, I can be
jealous or envious, but it'sthat whole way of saying, okay,
that shows me what I want inlife, right? I don't resent the
other person, so I just don'tlove the cattiness. But you're
right. There are women who arelike that. There are even women
(35:58):
who their whole thing they getoff on is taking other women's
men. I know I can think of twoexamples,
Laura Bowman (36:11):
which is, I mean, that's such a like,
underdeveloped woman who is,like, so hooked on male
attention for their ownvalidation and like, like we
were saying in the beginning,like that insecurity of like, I
just need to grab male attentionand I'll get it. I'll get it
from anywhere I can get it from,whether it's your man or her
man.
Colette Fehr (36:32):
Yep, exactly. And then on top of it, someone like
Jacqueline wanting to see thewomen jealous of her and to
dominate, to show these womenwho are younger, like, I'm the
one that these men want, notyou. That's her source, that's
her supply, that's her source ofpower.
Laura Bowman (36:53):
So, yeah, so just a note on these three friends,
like, I can see thisartistically, like them wheeling
their suitcase to the airportand like, being like, being
exhausted, and being like, neveragain, like, Oh,
Colette Fehr (37:06):
I think that's in real life. That's exactly what
would happen. We'll have to seewhat Mike White has decided. It
would be super interesting ifone of them ended up being the
one who dies. That wouldactually be interesting to me. I
don't know why. How aboutJacqueline? I could not abhor
(37:27):
her
Laura Bowman (37:27):
more. Well, she deserves, she if one of them
deserves to be off, yeah, itmight be her crimes against
other women. Yeah, and
Colette Fehr (37:36):
I just couldn't like I would have loved to see
more, a little more interactionwith them and the rat cliffs,
like the boys,
Laura Bowman (37:47):
yeah, yeah, maybe we will Saxon. Maybe Saxon will
regain his manhood with one ofthem, yeah,
Colette Fehr (37:55):
um, maybe Saxon will, like, sexually assault a
woman in, like, a really badattempt to a really horrible,
deviant attempt to, like,reassert his masculine
dominance. Let's hope it doesn'tgo down that, yeah, I know I'm
rewriting the show, but Okay, solet's touch on Amy Lou. Amy
Laura Bowman (38:17):
Lou would and I, I've got to say she might be my
favorite character. Her name isChelsea. I love her. Chloe,
yeah, yeah. I love them. I lovethem. Some of the conversations
they've had have been priceless,like, when, when, uh, Chloe
looks at Chelsea and says, like,you can't save your life.
(38:37):
Rescuing you can't write. Youknow, rescue a man, you're gonna
ruin your life. I was like, yes,yeah, I love Chelsea and those
tea, me too, me too. And she'sso like, like, emotionally
honest at points, yeah, she
Colette Fehr (38:53):
is the narrator, like, the the normal, healthy
view on the show. I think even
Laura Bowman (39:03):
though she's got her own, like, vulnerabilities,
obviously she's following Rickaround, and she's, like, gotten
bitten by a snake and the wholething, but she
Colette Fehr (39:11):
really, I think she really loves him. She does,
and I think she has agroundedness. I mean, to me, one
of the most powerful moments waswhen Saxon said, Why haven't I
been it? Why couldn't I get youto hook up with me? And she
said, because it would be empty.
You're soulless. You have nosoul. And he was shook. Now, of
course, there's more to it thanjust that, but, you know, I felt
(39:33):
like for a minute he didn't knowwhat to make of that. And it's
true, she speaks the
Laura Bowman (39:39):
truth, but and not in a mean way. I mean, she's not
overly aggressive about it.
She's just sort of, like,gentle, in a gentle honesty,
like even the scene where shepulls Rick to the front of the
boat and she's like, look like,I'm gonna leave if you don't
tell me what's going on, yeah.
Like, I can't do this. Yeah. Andthen he, like, opens up to her.
It's like, she's. She's she'sable to get to, like,
(40:02):
authenticity in a way that somany of the characters can't,
yeah,
Colette Fehr (40:06):
and I think even Chloe can do some of that,
although Chloe is morecalculated and she's like, look,
this is a good situation. I'mnot leaving you know, she's
somebody who's practical. She'sa hustler. She's gonna figure it
out. I thought it was a littlenaive and ridiculous that she
actually thinks the killer guyfrom last season, I It's so bad
(40:30):
that I don't know anyone's name,but that he actually wants Yes.
Is that it Greg who killed?
Okay, so Gary, it's Gary. Gary,yes, Gary, good call. I couldn't
believe she actually thinks Garythis like, you know, billionaire
murderer. Maybe she doesn't knowthe murderer, but that he wants
her to bring the guy she hookedup with back to the I mean, come
(40:52):
on.
Laura Bowman (40:56):
But do you think that's what makes that guy tick?
Colette Fehr (40:58):
No, I don't. I don't think, I don't think he
could give a crap. Oh, I do. Ido. Are we back to dominance?
Yeah, I think it's still, evenif I don't care about Chloe,
Chloe's still my possession, andyou just came and, like, used my
toy, you know, peed on my pole.
Like, I don't think he's gonnalike that, but I think he has
some, who knows what the motiveis, but he has some reason for
(41:22):
this. I could see him doingsomething to Saxon.
Laura Bowman (41:28):
I think it's all a bit of like subterfuge, just to
get Belinda, the character whoknows his identity, like back on
the boat, maybe you know, or tohouse. What's
Colette Fehr (41:39):
the necessity?
What's the necessity of beinglike, oh, bring the guy you
hooked up with, like, inviteother people, have the hotel
concierge. It just doesn't makesense to maybe he just wants a
group, I don't know, right? Butthen why have the guy that your
girlfriend's
Laura Bowman (41:54):
gonna He's gonna flex on him somehow? Yes,
Colette Fehr (41:57):
maybe it'll be subtle. Maybe it'll be extreme,
I don't know, but I don't thinkhe's just like, Oh, cool. No big
deal. That's high. Bring himover, and then do we think that
he's gonna harm Belinda, or isshe gonna continue on for
seasons to come or pop up again?
Is she like the JenniferCoolidge, and this is her second
hope
Laura Bowman (42:19):
he doesn't hurt Belinda. I love Belinda. I love
Belinda's son. I think thatthey're like, again, another,
like, healthy point on the show,another moral center, a moral
center. And I would like hate tosee her be collateral damage.
Out of all of the people thatcould be collateral damage,
Colette Fehr (42:37):
I agree, and I don't. I feel like she won't be
I think that would be soupsetting to the audience,
because she's one of the fewpeople, people like I
Laura Bowman (42:48):
do think there's going to be a twist we can't
fathom, and I don't know whatthat is, yeah,
Colette Fehr (42:54):
oh my gosh. If, for any of you who are
listening, if you have ideas ofwhat you think the twist, or
what you think about what we'resaying and you disagree. Let us
know. I'm dying to hear like Iwant to talk about this with
everyone. I want to
Laura Bowman (43:07):
talk about it with everyone too. I want to hear
everybody's thoughts. Myhusband, like loves Rick. Oh,
and we, you know, what we didn'teven talk about is Frank Sam
Rockwell's monolog. Oh, my God.
I loved it. I loved it. It wasso dark. But it was even more
exciting to see Rick's face andto see him finally, for one
(43:32):
moment, get out of his ownvictim naval gazing and go, Holy
shit. Maybe other people aremore fucked up than I
Colette Fehr (43:43):
am. His face was priceless, priceless.
Laura Bowman (43:46):
He's like, You're kidding, right? Like, you gotta
be kidding. And then he waslike, whoa. Like, it made some
space, because he's in tunnelvision with this idea that he's
gonna off the man, you know,that killed fire.
Colette Fehr (43:59):
So not believable.
Yeah, I find it so notbelievable. That whole
storyline, it feels contrived tome. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I just I'm not I'm not into it.
I loved the monolog scene to adegree. I think it went on a
little long for me. Andsometimes I feel like we're just
(44:20):
trying to do shock value, to doshock value,
Laura Bowman (44:25):
although I don't know. Man, I've heard stuff like
this, like, I've heard thingslike this. It's not like this
doesn't exist in the world.
Colette Fehr (44:33):
No, I'm not saying that, but I've heard that stuff
too. But when you pack it allinto one episode, and it's every
crazy thing. Just sometimes itfeels a little gratuitous.
Laura Bowman (44:43):
I'm here for it.
I'm here for the gratuitousnature of the show. Okay, I
Colette Fehr (44:48):
like the more character driven dynamics, like
I want to see more of the humaninterplay. I don't love the
four. Saying of this, like crimedrama part, or every character
has
Laura Bowman (45:05):
do a lot of things, yes, yeah. And that's, I
think, the nature of it, right,
Colette Fehr (45:09):
right? Some people probably like some parts better,
but I do think the characterdynamics are fascinating, and I
can't wait to see we have what,two more episodes. Two more
Laura Bowman (45:20):
episodes. They gotta fit some stuff in here.
Yeah, so this
Colette Fehr (45:24):
Sunday at nine will be the penultimate episode,
and that will have aired by thetime you guys are listening,
which is crazy.
Laura Bowman (45:33):
I wonder if we caught anything that might
happen. I know so far off base,
Colette Fehr (45:38):
I'll be so curious to know. So please give us some
feedback. Our email is info atinsights from the couch.org. And
again, Laura and I put togethera little download for you guys
on playing off of white lotuspower dynamics and toxic
relationships, how to managethose kind of relationships and
how to break free. So check outour website, insights from the
(46:02):
couch.org, and resourcessection, and you'll find that
and lots more stuff fromprevious episodes. So I just I
can't wait to see what happens.
And we're so grateful you guysjoined us to talk about this
today.
Laura Bowman (46:17):
We all need to get together and have a white lotus
viewing party. We
Colette Fehr (46:20):
should have a white lotus finale party.
Totally, totally we should.
Let's do it. Let's do it. Let'shave a little viewing party that
would be so
Laura Bowman (46:32):
fun to our white lotus
Colette Fehr (46:34):
party. So it's not this Sunday, it's next Sunday,
right? Yeah. So perfect. AfterI've done my TEDx talk,
Laura Bowman (46:41):
you'll be quite loose and ready to enjoy
ultimately, I'll
Colette Fehr (46:46):
be ready to act like Jacqueline on the dance
floor or Lori
Laura Bowman (46:49):
in the pool.
Luckily, there's no pool around.
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. You havea pool. We'll come to your
house. Okay? We'll reenact theFull Moon Party. Oh,
Colette Fehr (47:01):
my God, no, please, please. I think I'll
settle for a glass of red wineand sitting on my couch. Yeah,
sounds awesome. Okay, you guys,thank you so much for listening.
And as always, if you liked whatyou heard, please take a moment
to leave us a five star review,or whatever review you think we
(47:22):
deserve. It helps us get ourword out to everybody else who
might benefit from theseepisodes and drop us a comment.
If there's something you want tohear more about on the show, a
topic you think would beinteresting, we love getting
those. And if you have aparticular question that you
want us to answer, reach out.
We're happy to do that, andotherwise we will see you next
(47:43):
week. Take care. You.
Scott, welcome back everyone. To the first
episode of season four ofinsights from the couch, mental
health at midlife. We've got agreat episode today. We're going
to be talking about all the darkstuff and the White Lotus, the
psychological behind the scenes,sex, power and betrayal, the
twisted psychology of whitelotus, we could not resist
(00:24):
because Laura and I are bothaddicted to the show, so we're
going to dive in and talk aboutwhat's going on behind the
scenes with these characters, orat least our take as therapists.
And we want to hear from youtoo, your thoughts, your
questions, your comments, what'sgoing to happen in the show. So
please reach out to us at info,at insights from the couch.org.
(00:45):
I am so excited to dig into thisand talk about all the fucked up
stuff going on and the WhiteLotus. So let's get into it, and
you guys remember to go to ourwebsite, insights from the
couch.org. We are going to havea download for you on toxic
relationships and powerdynamics, how to recognize them,
(01:09):
how to manage them, and how toget out of that, out of them. So
don't forget to check that outafter we dish on the white the
White Lotus. All right, let'stalk about it, because there's a
lot to get into.
Laura Bowman (01:21):
I'm so into it. I just, I love Mike White's
writing. I love these people. Ilike become so obsessed on the
granular details of thesehumans, everyone we all know,
somebody like every one of them,yeah, well, most of them, I
guess. Well,
Colette Fehr (01:38):
okay, just before we get into the psychological
dynamics. I don't like thisseason as much as last season.
It's a slow
Laura Bowman (01:46):
build, right there, very it's an agonizingly
slow build, yeah, but I likesome I love the rat lift family,
Colette Fehr (01:54):
yes. So let's go there first, because they are so
complicated. And of course, thebrother incest thing. Well, I
want to dig into that a littlebit, but just even the dynamics
of the family. And you know, itwas modeled after like Mike
White told them to watchsouthern charm on Bravo, which
you've probably never seen, butI why I've seen it. I've seen
(02:15):
episodes of it. Okay, so he toldthe father to model this guy, T
Rav, who's just a completedouche bag, like this
politician, who has a string oflike, sexual assault allegations
and baby mamas, yeah, yeah. Sothat because the the main actor
(02:35):
is British, and I know
Laura Bowman (02:38):
that's he pulls him off really convincingly.
Colette Fehr (02:41):
Okay, so what do you what stands out to you about
the family, other than the factthat the brothers giving the
other brother a hand chop?
Laura Bowman (02:48):
I mean, that's actually like, that was so came
out of left field for me, alittle bit, even though, really
why it should have, because,like, it was foreshadowed quite
well. Just, I just, you knowwhat the Lachlan character who
ends up giving the hand job. Isaw him very much like, and I
don't know how many, I'massuming anybody listening to
this with any interest followshas seen all of the seasons, but
(03:12):
the first season, there was likea brother who was kind of like
the good guy who was, like,seemingly so innocent and like
outside the family drama. And Ithought that this kid was that
initially, and now I'm seeinghim as something quite
different. I
Colette Fehr (03:29):
agree. I think he's actually got the like
sexual deviance issues in thesense of incest, like
Laura Bowman (03:36):
some real deep pathos there. Absolutely what
Colette Fehr (03:40):
I thought at the beginning is that the daughter
was that character, the one whowas not corrupted by power and
money that she wanted to be, youknow, in the Buddhist monastery
and sort of issue all of thesocial bullshit her family
imposes on her. But I picked upon Lachlan seeming to be very
(04:02):
sexually interested, I thinkpotentially even in his sister
and his brother.
Laura Bowman (04:08):
I think you're right on that. I initially
thought that he looked at hisbrother like, Oh, you poor
unfortunate douche bag. But nowlike, that's all shifted.
Colette Fehr (04:20):
Yeah, yeah. But see, I didn't think that. Okay,
here's my take, and then yougive me your take. Yeah, I think
from the beginning and even inthe first episode, first of all,
I was like, this family is soweird, and not just the fact
that they're superficial andridiculous, which they're that
too, but I just thought they areso messed up, and there was so
much sexual overtone from thejump with the way the brother
(04:42):
was preoccupied. The Saxon waspreoccupied with what, what's
the sister's name? Again, Ican't believe I watched Piper.
Thank you. You know, preoccupiedwith whether or not Piper's had
sex, like picking her up. Imean, my brother and I don't
like touch each other. It's justweird. And then when. Saxon went
in to the bathroom that firstnaked scene, lachlan's gaze. I
(05:06):
got the feeling that for Saxon,it was just like, you know,
whatever. I don't give a shit.
I'm gonna walk around freely infront of my brother. But I felt
like Lachlan had a sexual gazeeven at his brother's body in
that first episode. And now whatI think is that Saxon is the,
you know, finance bra doucheyes, that everyone loves to
(05:29):
hate, right? He's the guy we allknow, one of those, yes, yes,
just totally detestable. But Idon't think he has the same real
sexual I think he wanted to,like, bond with the brother and
help it laid. But I thinkLachlan could turn out to be, I
don't know where this is gonnago. And the crazy thing is,
(05:51):
like, by the time this episodeairs on Wednesday, there will be
another episode out that wecan't talk about. I know
Laura Bowman (05:58):
we can't talk about. And you know, I think
that this just shows that Iwasn't even really paying
attention to Lachlan that much.
Yeah, I kind of saw him as likea non entity, till he started,
like, really throwing them backat, like, the Full Moon Party,
and looks at the brother andsaid, like, one day I'm gonna
own you. And I'm like, What thefuck? What do you like of that?
I was like, Oh, wow. Like, youwant to take this guy down. You
(06:21):
want to bring him down a peg.
Somehow,
Colette Fehr (06:25):
competition, yeah, rivalry,
Laura Bowman (06:28):
like, you know, you see yourself somehow as
stronger than this guy, like youhave his number, and somehow he
just seems more. Maybe it'spredatory, like a little
sociopathy, but he seems quitecomfortable with himself,
whereas Saxon is quiteuncomfortable with himself. And
(06:51):
like, when this whole thinghappens, he just, like,
unravels, like us, you know,right,
Colette Fehr (06:56):
which I found his portrayal of that whole aspect
very believable, just how, firstof all, I've never been on
ecstasy, but I can imagine ondrugs that, you know, we're
biological animals, I'm sure allsorts of things like you insert
another person, your body'sgonna respond. So I don't have
that much trouble seeing howthat could go. But I do think it
(07:19):
speaks to another possibilitywith Lachlan, like giving the
hand job, that maybe it's not somuch that he's sexually
attracted, although I reallydid, do feel like I've seen
those longing gazes, Althoughwho knows with Mike White's
writing, but maybe it's moreabout Lachlan saying, This is
How I can destroy this brother,he will never recover, and I
(07:43):
don't care. Maybe he does havesome sociopathy, and he just
doesn't care, or some deviance.
He's missing a chip, if youwill, and he knows that like the
one thing he could do that willdestroy this man's sense of self
is to have him live with thefact that his brother gave him
an orgasm.
Laura Bowman (08:02):
God, it's just yeah and, but, you know, then
with with his sister and I likemore to come there, because now
they're in the monasterytogether, yeah,
Colette Fehr (08:10):
I was like, is he gonna, like, make a move on her?
But, I mean, yeah, but if it'spower and, like, ruining,
because he does seem to reallycare about her, genuinely care,
yeah, then that would not apply.
But if it's more sexualattraction to one's siblings,
then it could. I know that wasmy first thought. I'm like,
you're gonna spend the night.
Oh, my God, what's he gonna doto you? Right? Put on a girdle,
Laura Bowman (08:36):
protect your genitals. I mean, like, I don't
know. I mean, yeah, so, sothere's, like, more questions
than answers there. Like, wasthat just a total one off? But
it doesn't, it doesn't seem tobother a lot of them at
Colette Fehr (08:49):
all. No. And I thought this was fascinating,
because, you know, you don'treally see a lot of sibling
incest in TV. I mean, I can'tthink of a time reason Flowers
in the Attic. How could I forgetthat? I mean, that was made into
a movie. Did you read thosebooks? I
Laura Bowman (09:10):
watched that movie. I don't remember incest
in the movie, though. Oh, myGod. Okay. Well, was it between
the older bro, the oldersiblings when they're stuck in
the attic? I think it's
Colette Fehr (09:19):
between the olders and the youngers. It's so funny.
I think it's VC Andrews. When Iwas young, dark, I read every
one of those books. And shocker,they were my favorites, not
because of incest, just becauseit was like, dark and power,
yeah. And that's my that's mything.
Laura Bowman (09:34):
The grandmother poisoning the kids in the Yes,
yes.
Colette Fehr (09:37):
It was so good.
But, you know, it speaks to aninteresting point. I don't think
we often see two brothers. Ican't think of a time I've seen
two brothers in an incest caseon television or in literature.
How
Laura Bowman (09:50):
about the younger brother? Dominique? I hope I'm
not ruining this is a spoileralert episode. So like, if you
want to see all these things,don't listen. But there's. A
scene in the brutalist wherethis guy, who's the benefactor
of of the architect, he takesadvantage of him and, like,
sodomizes him while he's drunk.
And it's a and it's you get thesense that it's not entirely
(10:14):
sexual. You get the sense thatit's an act of dominance.
Exactly,
Colette Fehr (10:22):
yeah, exactly same
Laura Bowman (10:23):
sense, a little bit with Yeah.
Colette Fehr (10:26):
And, you know, another possibility along those
lines is that the brother, toyour point about you didn't even
really pay attention to Lachlan.
I think that's the dynamic inthe family. Yeah, everybody else
is so dominant in their own way,and he just sort of fades into
the wallpaper. So it's alsopossible that this kid's just
looking for ways to fit in, waysto be seen, ways to find
(10:49):
intimacy, and they've taken thisreally virulent pathological
form. And it wouldn't be totallyshocking, because sometimes when
incest arises in families. It'sa function of enmeshment of an
abusive family. And even thoughthey present and think of
themselves as this idealSouthern family, their dynamics,
(11:10):
all of them are extremely toxic.
Laura Bowman (11:16):
Yeah, you think the moms like swallowing, like
benzodiazepines. Well now, nowher husband is, I mean, the
family is about to implode, andthe biggest concern that the
mother seems to have is like,Will Lachlan go to like UNC
Chapel Hill or Duke,
Colette Fehr (11:31):
I know, I know, or will, will Piper stay in
Thailand and ruin her prospects?
It's such a throwback to like,the Bronte days, you know, Jane
Eyre and Sense and Sensibilityin a much more toxic form. This
mother's living out of an oldplaybook where, like, your
children have to be socially,strategically placed, and that's
(11:53):
all that messed
Laura Bowman (11:57):
with it. And, I mean, that's the thing you get,
is like how fragile her identityis like, when she contemplates,
like, not having money, she'slike, I'm not sure I'd want to
live and, I mean, she's that'shonest, like she thinks that is
that would be the absolute deathof her identity. Because, I
mean, she's constantly talkingabout, like, our values and
(12:18):
people like
Colette Fehr (12:20):
us, right? This is where I have to say. And I love
Mike White, because I'm a bigsurvivor fan, and he was on
survivor. And I do think there'sso much great stuff in these
shows. I've watched everyepisode of every season, and I
can't wait to dissect itafterwards, yeah, but I do have
a criticism of his writing.
Personally, I think a lot of itis very heavy handed and on the
(12:40):
nose.
Laura Bowman (12:43):
Well, it is, and I know what it kind of makes it
fun. Like, even the names, like,I don't know if you've caught
this, but like, the characternames are very like, like,
Dickens style. Like, yeah, youknow, Leslie Bibbs character is
named Kate bore like, she's theboring boar. And it's like, so I
just think it is very on thenose, and I, and I kind of think
(13:04):
that's the kind of fun about it.
And then it it jumps into thefact that Tim realizes the
husband, like, maybe I have topull off a murder suicide. Maybe
it's not even compassionate toleave this woman behind. Yeah,
yeah,
Colette Fehr (13:16):
no, I actually believed that that second
suicide I really bought into, Ithought for a minute, like, it
happened.
Laura Bowman (13:23):
I almost, I almost think that maybe he has to kill
his son too. Like, I'm not sureSaxon could take the ego death
of not being the, you know, theprotein shake heir to a big
like, you know, I don't knowwhat kind of fortune. I don't
know. I
Colette Fehr (13:40):
think he has time to rebound. I don't think Saxon
can take the ego death of havinggotten a hand job from his
brother.
Laura Bowman (13:47):
I think he's very
Colette Fehr (13:48):
fragile in lots of ways. Yeah, we might have to
kill him off for that alone. Butlet me just be clear, I like the
over the top and on the nosesatirical component of the
characters. Like there
Laura Bowman (13:59):
was another moment I think this was the first time
you said to me that you didn'tlove this was the moment that
Carrie Coon's character, whoplays Laurie, you know, sees her
friends and she knows they'retalking shit about her, and she
just like, has, like a primalscream and like weeps. And it's
like we didn't need to see thisto know how that impacted her,
Colette Fehr (14:21):
right, right? And not in that way. Yes, some of
it's just to let the charactersbe more subtle in their dialog,
because we've heard you've drawnthe character so well, but Okay,
so before we move on to becauseI'm dying to talk about the the
three female friends, yeah. Butanything else you want to say
(14:43):
about this tragic North Carolinafamily? And do you think, I
mean, I could care less whodies? I find that to be the
least interesting. I know it'sthe conceit of the show, but
it's like, who cares
Laura Bowman (14:54):
to me, I do. I do find it funny how the gun is
being passed around. Like weknow the gun is used. We. A gun
is used, like we don't know, tothe max, totally. I mean, I am
surprised, just from like ahuman level, that Tim is even,
like standing after drinking asmuch and like popping all these,
like benzos, that he can evenform a coherent sentence, yeah,
(15:17):
but who knows, or
Colette Fehr (15:18):
that she can go through withdrawal if she's
taking benzodiazepines daily.
You know, benzodiazepines andalcohol are the only two drugs
that can kill you. Yeah,seizures,
Laura Bowman (15:29):
yeah. She seems like not as annoyed as you would
expect, or as like panicstricken as you would expect a
person who really lost their
Colette Fehr (15:36):
pills. And so this is where it goes back into the
caricature, and we just sort ofhave to accept that. But it
seems like it can't be the dadwho dies by suicide, because
that's too obvious. It's tooobvious, right? And I feel like
it's gonna be, I don't I don'tknow anyone's name. Who's the
like sweet little Thai couple,the unrequited love. I could see
(15:59):
him dying. Yeah,
Laura Bowman (16:01):
he seems very like sacrificial lamb, right?
Colette Fehr (16:04):
Yes, yes, definitely. Like, he doesn't
Laura Bowman (16:07):
know he's surrounded by vipers. Like,
they're always like, you know,showing those two like, thug
bodyguards. And he's like, hewants to be a body. He's never
going to be a bodyguard, buthe's going to get offed by one
of them, probably.
Colette Fehr (16:19):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Oh, and you know, what
else I wanted to just say,because, just because I think
it's interesting, and we werechatting about this before,
before we get too away from theincest thing that that Wester
Marc effect, because I wastrying to understand, what are
these dynamics. I will say, Inall my years of therapy, doing
trauma therapy, so many clientswho have been through Sexual
(16:41):
Abuse Incest in their families,but not siblings. I've never had
a client, have you like brothersister?
Unknown (16:51):
I have, oh, my God. Oh, wait. I have, wait,
Colette Fehr (16:54):
I have two. I have, and I have what I haven't
had. Sorry, I have, you knowwhat I haven't had? That. I'm
thinking of two brothers. Ihaven't had a brother perpetrate
another brother. I've had lotsof brother sister.
Laura Bowman (17:09):
I've had that at like, I don't even want to talk
about it. It's too much. Yeah, Ican't talk about it. Okay, add
some wacky stuff.
Colette Fehr (17:16):
Okay, yeah, but I do think, again, it's not
something we see in pop culture.
Obviously, it goes on. It goeson right. But trying to
understand how that happens. Andobviously there are multiple
reasons, but this western Marceffect, this anthropologist in
the 1890s discovered thatthere's a genetic reason, an
(17:37):
evolutionary reason that kidswho grew up in the early years
together typically don't developa sexual attraction to one
another, even if they're notbiologically related. And it's
more than just I used to thinkit was the way You're
conditioned, like you learnedthis is my brother, right? So
(17:58):
you just don't think of theperson that way. But actually,
it's really a genetic thing thatwe just don't develop attraction
to people we grew up with whenwe're kids. Because if there's
incest among siblings, it canlead to major genetic problems,
and it's not as advantageous forprocreation. I Oh, no,
(18:19):
absolutely,
Laura Bowman (18:22):
you know. But I wanted to say that this is my
own gut feeling. I don't I'm notsaying that there's even
research behind this, but I dofeel like when there's incest in
like a way that's perpetratedover a long period of time, or
even when it's perpetrated inadulthood, which I've seen,
(18:42):
yeah, wow. I always feel likewith the individual perpetrating
there's like, a decent amount ofsociopathy at playing
interesting. There's justsomething off. It's, it is a
little bit of an act ofdominance. It's a little bit of,
like this sexual liability,where they can, they can, kind
(19:03):
of take advantage of anything,brother, sister, partner,
Colette Fehr (19:08):
I think that's a viable scenario. I just don't
know if I think that's the onlyscenario. Oh, I know it's not
the only I just Yeah. I mean, Ialso think that the if you're
abused by a parent or stepparent, then we know that kids
will then act out that areabuse, often on their siblings.
But I don't think that's thecase with Lachlan, and also it
(19:30):
may be a result of the fact,again, in a very pathological
way, but that he feels totallydisconnected, and he's trying to
find ways not only to get powerand dominance, but to be close
to these siblings, I suspectthat's not it. It's more
deviant. But I think sometimesthe incest can come from like a
very unhealthy enmeshment thatjust doesn't set the right
(19:53):
boundaries. Yeah, depending onwhat's going on at the executive
subsystem, I
Laura Bowman (19:58):
think you're absolutely right, and I. Also
want to say, because we'd beremiss not to, is that, you
know, incest is one of theseintergenerational transmission
processes. So like, if it's inyour family for multiple
generations, it tends to getpassed down like a bad yeah. And
Colette Fehr (20:14):
if it's in your family at all, it can get passed
down, right? Yeah, yeah. Andsame thing with suicidality, I
think sometimes people don'trealize that we're seeing this
father and the Ratcliffe familywho it's a situational crisis
that he doesn't know how to tellhis wife. Not only will his wife
(20:35):
not be okay, she will probablyhate him for it. I mean, he's
really shit the bed, and thatmay prompt him to take his life.
I don't think it will, but he'sdefinitely contemplating it. But
for a lot of people, suicidalityis more endogenous, meaning, you
know, it's genetically passed.
It's part of the brainstructure. And I think a lot of
people have troubleunderstanding that. Some
(20:57):
people's brains tell them allthe time like you should really
die, you're better if you're nothere. And people who don't have
that sometimes are very hard onpeople. How could you do this to
people in your life? And youjust really don't know what
people go through 100%
Laura Bowman (21:15):
and you know, the thing that we haven't talked
about is just the capitalisticgrind that this family is a part
of, and this class system where,you know, you do a ten million
deal for with a buddy, butthat's like, the, you know,
that's the price of being inthat class, yep. And, I mean,
I'm waiting for the credit cardto stop working. I know. I'm
(21:39):
waiting for somebody to go like,ma'am, we tried to process your
massage to work. Okay,
Colette Fehr (21:46):
so let's talk about the three female friends,
because love it. It'sfascinating. And I think this is
one so many of us women at ourage are really relating to, you
know, because they're a littlebit older. Even though they're
they're younger than we are.
They're, you know, right, aren'tthey around 40 years old? I
think to me, this is the bestwriting of the show, really
(22:09):
showing the competitive natureof female relationships for some
people, and it's fascinating towatch this train coming off the
tracks with these three what,what's your take?
Laura Bowman (22:29):
Ah, so many takes.
Like, I mean, it's like, thisold friend group that, I mean,
everybody's trying. I mean,they're all trying to look
great, except for Lori'scharacter, who's, like,
obviously, been through a lot,and so she's not on the same in
the same league as her, like,rich Texas friend played, you
know, Kate, and then
Colette Fehr (22:52):
she's wealthy, she's successful, she's wealthy,
Laura Bowman (22:54):
but she's like, a New Yorker. And, you know, I
actually listened. And ifanybody, like, really wants to
go deep into the White Lotus.
They have a whole podcast, yeah?
And, like, I heard her talkabout her character, and they
said that they made, like,really intentional details like
that. She was always a shade offwith her clothes, yeah,
Colette Fehr (23:12):
yeah. She doesn't have the panache, but she's not,
like,
Laura Bowman (23:15):
even her nail color is wrong, yeah. Like, that
was the same amount of effort.
She doesn't dress as well. She'sfrumpy compared to the other
two. She's from, but she's notof a different socio economic
status. That's what I waspointing out, right? But I
right, but I think she all ofher inadequate and adequacies
come into sharp relief aroundthose two and and then even the
(23:37):
Texan feels her inadequacies insharp relief to Jacqueline,
who's like the famous person. Sothey're just nobody's feeling
good enough. You know, withhere, they are supposed to be
friends having this great, like,time together, nobody. I mean, I
don't even know if Jaclyn isfeeling good enough because her
(23:57):
boyfriend isn't tech her husbandisn't texting her.
Colette Fehr (24:02):
Well, I think Jacqueline is actually the one
who's most feeling not goodenough
Laura Bowman (24:07):
because she Yeah, like she's but she's constantly
she's the one that has thatpiece of like being constantly
on the take for male attention,right? And
Colette Fehr (24:16):
that is the biggest gaping hole sign of not
feeling good enough, if there'sever been one. I mean, you're in
your 40s, whatever age you are,and you're so desperate for male
attention that you have to sleepwith this, like Russian that
you've been pushing on your onyour friends,
Laura Bowman (24:34):
as if that she needs to get laid and have a
great time, and then you justswoop in at the last minute and,
like, grab him up. But
Colette Fehr (24:41):
that was the part that I found the least
surprising. Like, we've all hadsome version of that where,
like, a friend one ups you, andthis is what I thought was so
under interesting about thepsychology of it that we've
chatted about. You know thatwomen have more of an indirect
aggression. Right? And we knowthat we're all comparative,
(25:03):
right? We're always trying tojudge how well we're doing by
comparing ourselves to those inour social group, but that men
tend to be outright aggressive.
Like, if there's a problem, menwill, like, have a physical.
Laura Bowman (25:14):
Yeah, what the fuck you doing? Dude? Like, just
get right face called
Colette Fehr (25:18):
out, or it's enacted physically or verbally
aggressively. Women tend to beindirect and covert, and that
actually the way women try toexert like alpha status and
dominance, right, one uppingeach other, is through
backstabbing, backhandedcompliments, which we know are
insults, you know, taking theguy that you wanted to have, and
(25:42):
I don't even care about him, butI can have him like that, and
you can't even score him. And myneeds are right? It's this. So I
just see them power, playingeach other constantly, and that
also the triangulation of whichso many women do, let's be
honest. And it has variousdegrees of meanness to it that
(26:05):
you leave the table and it'slike, oh, Laura, you know that
outfit. I wonder if she's goingthrough a hard time. She doesn't
look like herself today. Did?
She came a little way.
Obviously, I would never shakingtoo much. Her eyes look puffy.
That engaging quickly? Yes, thatis all a way to exert dominance.
Laura Bowman (26:26):
This is why women don't want to be friends with
other women. Sometimes it's likethey just have been bitten by
this too many times. And yeah,there is no safety often
Colette Fehr (26:37):
of women, right?
But this also makes me reflecton how fortunate I've been,
because I just do not havefriends like this. For the most
part, I've, I've known peopleand I want, I don't want them in
my life, but like my closestfriends, like even growing up,
other than in middle school, Ihad an incident, and it was like
(26:58):
handled. But in high school,even I just don't feel like my
friends were like this, and Idon't have any friends who are
like this. Now, I know,
Laura Bowman (27:08):
I mean, I've, I've certainly had friends that were
like this, and have graduallypulled away, and I don't, I
don't tolerate that in my life,like, if I sniff that out, I'm
like out of there very quickly.
Me too. Me too. But in thissituation with these three
friends, like they've, they're,like, historical friends, yeah,
and I'm, I'm just reallycurious, too, what you thought
(27:31):
about the moment where they'resitting by the pool and, like,
Lori does her best to confrontJacqueline, like, hey, we
haven't changed. Like, thisstuff went on in the 10th grade,
like, you're still the same. Themoment that, like, just blew me
away, was that Jacqueline justabsolutely dismissed it, like,
that's not even you're like, sofar off base, like, the
(27:52):
gaslighting of like, you don'tsee what you see. You don't know
what you
Colette Fehr (27:57):
know. I know you know what's happening,
Laura Bowman (28:01):
what it just came over like nothing happened.
Yeah, bullshit. We don't knowwhat happened.
Colette Fehr (28:07):
And she also knows that nobody's gonna believe
that, and doesn't care. I mean,Jacqueline is that creature who
is so narcissistic, so egoic,she's gonna get what she wants,
no matter what, whatever makesher feel good and fills her up
she's gonna do no matter how itimpacts others. What I liked was
(28:28):
that I liked that Loriconfronted her. I loved that,
yeah, and that she called itout. And I was not surprised by
Jacqueline's reaction. And then,is it Kate? What's the other
friend? Okay, yeah, I alwayswant to call them by their
actress name. I know she waslike, you know, I think one of
(28:49):
the parts I love the most aboutKate, I feel like I've been this
person, but I found that to beso human and relatable. And then
they get back to the pool, andthey're splashing and throwing
up their tops and she's in herpajamas, like, with
Laura Bowman (29:03):
that guy, she's like, being held hostage by that
guy who's like, trying to tellher, like, the life story. Yeah,
okay, night's over. But
Colette Fehr (29:11):
I loved that. Also that was, like, exerting a
boundary, like they do havethese little moments of of
healthy behaviors. I also thinka component of it. I don't
relate to the mean girl thing,but I have definitely known
those people, and we certainlyhave clients who go through this
in their friendships. I mean,it's common, unfortunately, but
(29:32):
I also thought it wasinteresting the idea of friends
that are formed because I'msomeone who's friends with and
keeps in touch with people fromearly in my life and our
personality can be so the same,but some of your friends maybe
are people that you wouldn'tnecessarily become friends with
today. Yes, you know, it wasborn of the shared experience,
(29:53):
which is a huge part of howfriendships form. You're in the
same school, you live in thesame dorm, right? These shared.
Experiences, and now inadulthood, we really pick more.
Who do we connect with, at leastif you're not out for
superficial friendships. Like, Idon't want to be friends with
you because you go to the samecountry club. I want to be
(30:13):
friends and I don't even go to acountry club. I want to be
friends with you because youmight have nothing in common
with me, but like, I like howyou are. I like who you are. I
enjoy my conversation with you.
I feel connected to you. Thereare certain things we might be
interested in, we can talkabout. So to me, these
characters also are people whowould never form a friendship
now,
Laura Bowman (30:35):
right? And I love how like, Kate has gone to Texas
and become like, clearly, like aRepublican by the Republican
Country Club set, and herfriends are just like looking at
her sideways. Yeah, they do nothave relatable lives. No. Where
do you see these three headedWhat do you see? Like? Do you
see, like a climax moment inthis
Colette Fehr (30:58):
I think it's very possible they don't like each
other. They don't, it's not evenreally, oh, we're close friends,
and we have little competitivestreaks. They don't like each
other, and they're
Laura Bowman (31:11):
not, like, particularly relevant to each
other, like, especially like,you know, Lori's like, going
through this, you know, she's anattorney in New York City, she's
paying like what palimony to herex husband. I mean, she does not
relate to these women.
Colette Fehr (31:29):
No, yeah, no, she's developed herself in ways
that they haven't. She has moresubstance just as a character,
more gravitas. She might have analcohol use disorder. Yes, I
think so. I think she does havea drinking process. Yeah. I
mean, substance use may besituationally induced. I mean, I
had that during my divorce too,and I'm not, yeah, an alcoholic,
(31:51):
but I definitely acted like analcoholic and drank like an
alcoholic during my divorce atat phases. So I think that's
very relatable also. But I thinkeven before Jacqueline stole her
man, I think Lori doesn't haveany respect for either of the
other characters fundamentally,
Laura Bowman (32:10):
yeah, and it's a great point, but it doesn't stop
the two of them from making herfeel like shit, right, right?
Colette Fehr (32:18):
Because, at the end of the day, mean girl
behavior hurts, even when you'rein your 50s, your 40s, you're
saying it hurts being excluded.
Hurts being gossiped about. Imean, I have had things like
that happen where I wasn'tincluded or invited, or someone,
oh, I'm thinking of a couplethings where someone made
comments to me in front of otherpeople that like were very
(32:41):
thinly veiled put downs. Yeah,it was. It's really painful,
even if you know in your mind,who cares? I don't need this
person. I don't want a friendlike that. We're still human,
and it's painful. Do you think,
Laura Bowman (33:01):
on Jacqueline's part, that the whole thing is
conscious, like her, sort oflike throwing Valentine at
Laurie? Do you think that's aconscious realization, like at
the last, you know, really, I'mgonna bag him at some moment.
Colette Fehr (33:17):
I could see it going either way. My take on the
way it unfolded on the show wasthat, you know, Jacqueline
probably was, to some degree,fine with it if Laurie was with
Valentin. Valentin, I've heardhis name pronounced every which
way, but once her husband wasn'tcalling her back. And she knows
what that means. I mean, oh, myphone wasn't charged for a week.
(33:40):
You know, come on, and herhusband's younger. And of
course, anytime a couplepublicly proclaims out the wazoo
how in love and perfect theyare. You know, their
relationship sucks, right? It'sthat whole thou doth protest too
much. You know, my young husbandwill never get sick of each
(34:00):
other sexually, we're like, sointo each other, right? Which
was such a death now, right?
Yeah. And also, it's such arubbing salt in the wound thing
to say to someone going througha divorce. It's so toned down
death. But I think when sherealizes, wow, my husband is
blowing me off. He's totallybagging some hot little young
actress. She's like, going toget mine right now exactly. And
(34:22):
then the needs of her ego Trumpfriendship, and she just doesn't
care. You know, I don't knowthat she went into if the
husband was paying attention toher, I don't know that she would
have interfered, but I stillthink she could have on the
dance floor if it was feelinggood. And
Laura Bowman (34:40):
did you notice the moment where Jacqueline's like,
grinding with the Russians andthe girls and looking at the
women, and that is just likegassing her up like she just is
loving. And I think this isreally important to talk about
in female friendships, or justfemale aggressive. Behavior,
(35:00):
yes, is that to get another girlor woman fixated on you, like
jealously in a jealous way, forsome women, is like the greatest
high of all highs. I
Colette Fehr (35:13):
am so happy that I don't have one ounce of that in
me. I am not competitive withother women. I know I have an
abundance mindset. Well, that'swhy we're friends, because I
don't, I literally cannot loserespect faster for someone than
when they're like that. Not onlydo I have an abundance mindset,
and it's part of it, I have suchwonderful female friends. I love
(35:37):
them. I want them to succeed.
I'm not mad at them when theyhave something i don't i don't
have, or that I even if it'ssomething I want, I can be
jealous or envious, but it'sthat whole way of saying, okay,
that shows me what I want inlife, right? I don't resent the
other person, so I just don'tlove the cattiness. But you're
right. There are women who arelike that. There are even women
(35:58):
who their whole thing they getoff on is taking other women's
men. I know I can think of twoexamples,
Laura Bowman (36:11):
which is, I mean, that's such a like,
underdeveloped woman who is,like, so hooked on male
attention for their ownvalidation and like, like we
were saying in the beginning,like that insecurity of like, I
just need to grab male attentionand I'll get it. I'll get it
from anywhere I can get it from,whether it's your man or her
man.
Colette Fehr (36:32):
Yep, exactly. And then on top of it, someone like
Jacqueline wanting to see thewomen jealous of her and to
dominate, to show these womenwho are younger, like, I'm the
one that these men want, notyou. That's her source, that's
her supply, that's her source ofpower.
Laura Bowman (36:53):
So, yeah, so just a note on these three friends,
like, I can see thisartistically, like them wheeling
their suitcase to the airportand like, being like, being
exhausted, and being like, neveragain, like, Oh,
Colette Fehr (37:06):
I think that's in real life. That's exactly what
would happen. We'll have to seewhat Mike White has decided. It
would be super interesting ifone of them ended up being the
one who dies. That wouldactually be interesting to me. I
don't know why. How aboutJacqueline? I could not abhor
(37:27):
her
Laura Bowman (37:27):
more. Well, she deserves, she if one of them
deserves to be off, yeah, itmight be her crimes against
other women. Yeah, and
Colette Fehr (37:36):
I just couldn't like I would have loved to see
more, a little more interactionwith them and the rat cliffs,
like the boys,
Laura Bowman (37:47):
yeah, yeah, maybe we will Saxon. Maybe Saxon will
regain his manhood with one ofthem, yeah,
Colette Fehr (37:55):
um, maybe Saxon will, like, sexually assault a
woman in, like, a really badattempt to a really horrible,
deviant attempt to, like,reassert his masculine
dominance. Let's hope it doesn'tgo down that, yeah, I know I'm
rewriting the show, but Okay, solet's touch on Amy Lou. Amy
Laura Bowman (38:17):
Lou would and I, I've got to say she might be my
favorite character. Her name isChelsea. I love her. Chloe,
yeah, yeah. I love them. I lovethem. Some of the conversations
they've had have been priceless,like, when, when, uh, Chloe
looks at Chelsea and says, like,you can't save your life.
(38:37):
Rescuing you can't write. Youknow, rescue a man, you're gonna
ruin your life. I was like, yes,yeah, I love Chelsea and those
tea, me too, me too. And she'sso like, like, emotionally
honest at points, yeah, she
Colette Fehr (38:53):
is the narrator, like, the the normal, healthy
view on the show. I think even
Laura Bowman (39:03):
though she's got her own, like, vulnerabilities,
obviously she's following Rickaround, and she's, like, gotten
bitten by a snake and the wholething, but she
Colette Fehr (39:11):
really, I think she really loves him. She does,
and I think she has agroundedness. I mean, to me, one
of the most powerful moments waswhen Saxon said, Why haven't I
been it? Why couldn't I get youto hook up with me? And she
said, because it would be empty.
You're soulless. You have nosoul. And he was shook. Now, of
course, there's more to it thanjust that, but, you know, I felt
(39:33):
like for a minute he didn't knowwhat to make of that. And it's
true, she speaks the
Laura Bowman (39:39):
truth, but and not in a mean way. I mean, she's not
overly aggressive about it.
She's just sort of, like,gentle, in a gentle honesty,
like even the scene where shepulls Rick to the front of the
boat and she's like, look like,I'm gonna leave if you don't
tell me what's going on, yeah.
Like, I can't do this. Yeah. Andthen he, like, opens up to her.
It's like, she's. She's she'sable to get to, like,
(40:02):
authenticity in a way that somany of the characters can't,
yeah,
Colette Fehr (40:06):
and I think even Chloe can do some of that,
although Chloe is morecalculated and she's like, look,
this is a good situation. I'mnot leaving you know, she's
somebody who's practical. She'sa hustler. She's gonna figure it
out. I thought it was a littlenaive and ridiculous that she
actually thinks the killer guyfrom last season, I It's so bad
(40:30):
that I don't know anyone's name,but that he actually wants Yes.
Is that it Greg who killed?
Okay, so Gary, it's Gary. Gary,yes, Gary, good call. I couldn't
believe she actually thinks Garythis like, you know, billionaire
murderer. Maybe she doesn't knowthe murderer, but that he wants
her to bring the guy she hookedup with back to the I mean, come
(40:52):
on.
Laura Bowman (40:56):
But do you think that's what makes that guy tick?
Colette Fehr (40:58):
No, I don't. I don't think, I don't think he
could give a crap. Oh, I do. Ido. Are we back to dominance?
Yeah, I think it's still, evenif I don't care about Chloe,
Chloe's still my possession, andyou just came and, like, used my
toy, you know, peed on my pole.
Like, I don't think he's gonnalike that, but I think he has
some, who knows what the motiveis, but he has some reason for
(41:22):
this. I could see him doingsomething to Saxon.
Laura Bowman (41:28):
I think it's all a bit of like subterfuge, just to
get Belinda, the character whoknows his identity, like back on
the boat, maybe you know, or tohouse. What's
Colette Fehr (41:39):
the necessity?
What's the necessity of beinglike, oh, bring the guy you
hooked up with, like, inviteother people, have the hotel
concierge. It just doesn't makesense to maybe he just wants a
group, I don't know, right? Butthen why have the guy that your
girlfriend's
Laura Bowman (41:54):
gonna He's gonna flex on him somehow? Yes,
Colette Fehr (41:57):
maybe it'll be subtle. Maybe it'll be extreme,
I don't know, but I don't thinkhe's just like, Oh, cool. No big
deal. That's high. Bring himover, and then do we think that
he's gonna harm Belinda, or isshe gonna continue on for
seasons to come or pop up again?
Is she like the JenniferCoolidge, and this is her second
hope
Laura Bowman (42:19):
he doesn't hurt Belinda. I love Belinda. I love
Belinda's son. I think thatthey're like, again, another,
like, healthy point on the show,another moral center, a moral
center. And I would like hate tosee her be collateral damage.
Out of all of the people thatcould be collateral damage,
Colette Fehr (42:37):
I agree, and I don't. I feel like she won't be
I think that would be soupsetting to the audience,
because she's one of the fewpeople, people like I
Laura Bowman (42:48):
do think there's going to be a twist we can't
fathom, and I don't know whatthat is, yeah,
Colette Fehr (42:54):
oh my gosh. If, for any of you who are
listening, if you have ideas ofwhat you think the twist, or
what you think about what we'resaying and you disagree. Let us
know. I'm dying to hear like Iwant to talk about this with
everyone. I want to
Laura Bowman (43:07):
talk about it with everyone too. I want to hear
everybody's thoughts. Myhusband, like loves Rick. Oh,
and we, you know, what we didn'teven talk about is Frank Sam
Rockwell's monolog. Oh, my God.
I loved it. I loved it. It wasso dark. But it was even more
exciting to see Rick's face andto see him finally, for one
(43:32):
moment, get out of his ownvictim naval gazing and go, Holy
shit. Maybe other people aremore fucked up than I
Colette Fehr (43:43):
am. His face was priceless, priceless.
Laura Bowman (43:46):
He's like, You're kidding, right? Like, you gotta
be kidding. And then he waslike, whoa. Like, it made some
space, because he's in tunnelvision with this idea that he's
gonna off the man, you know,that killed fire.
Colette Fehr (43:59):
So not believable.
Yeah, I find it so notbelievable. That whole
storyline, it feels contrived tome. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I just I'm not I'm not into it.
I loved the monolog scene to adegree. I think it went on a
little long for me. Andsometimes I feel like we're just
(44:20):
trying to do shock value, to doshock value,
Laura Bowman (44:25):
although I don't know. Man, I've heard stuff like
this, like, I've heard thingslike this. It's not like this
doesn't exist in the world.
Colette Fehr (44:33):
No, I'm not saying that, but I've heard that stuff
too. But when you pack it allinto one episode, and it's every
crazy thing. Just sometimes itfeels a little gratuitous.
Laura Bowman (44:43):
I'm here for it.
I'm here for the gratuitousnature of the show. Okay, I
Colette Fehr (44:48):
like the more character driven dynamics, like
I want to see more of the humaninterplay. I don't love the
four. Saying of this, like crimedrama part, or every character
has
Laura Bowman (45:05):
do a lot of things, yes, yeah. And that's, I
think, the nature of it, right,
Colette Fehr (45:09):
right? Some people probably like some parts better,
but I do think the characterdynamics are fascinating, and I
can't wait to see we have what,two more episodes. Two more
Laura Bowman (45:20):
episodes. They gotta fit some stuff in here.
Yeah, so this
Colette Fehr (45:24):
Sunday at nine will be the penultimate episode,
and that will have aired by thetime you guys are listening,
which is crazy.
Laura Bowman (45:33):
I wonder if we caught anything that might
happen. I know so far off base,
Colette Fehr (45:38):
I'll be so curious to know. So please give us some
feedback. Our email is info atinsights from the couch.org. And
again, Laura and I put togethera little download for you guys
on playing off of white lotuspower dynamics and toxic
relationships, how to managethose kind of relationships and
how to break free. So check outour website, insights from the
(46:02):
couch.org, and resourcessection, and you'll find that
and lots more stuff fromprevious episodes. So I just I
can't wait to see what happens.
And we're so grateful you guysjoined us to talk about this
today.
Laura Bowman (46:17):
We all need to get together and have a white lotus
viewing party. We
Colette Fehr (46:20):
should have a white lotus finale party.
Totally, totally we should.
Let's do it. Let's do it. Let'shave a little viewing party that
would be so
Laura Bowman (46:32):
fun to our white lotus
Colette Fehr (46:34):
party. So it's not this Sunday, it's next Sunday,
right? Yeah. So perfect. AfterI've done my TEDx talk,
Laura Bowman (46:41):
you'll be quite loose and ready to enjoy
ultimately, I'll
Colette Fehr (46:46):
be ready to act like Jacqueline on the dance
floor or Lori
Laura Bowman (46:49):
in the pool.
Luckily, there's no pool around.
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. You havea pool. We'll come to your
house. Okay? We'll reenact theFull Moon Party. Oh,
Colette Fehr (47:01):
my God, no, please, please. I think I'll
settle for a glass of red wineand sitting on my couch. Yeah,
sounds awesome. Okay, you guys,thank you so much for listening.
And as always, if you liked whatyou heard, please take a moment
to leave us a five star review,or whatever review you think we
(47:22):
deserve. It helps us get ourword out to everybody else who
might benefit from theseepisodes and drop us a comment.
If there's something you want tohear more about on the show, a
topic you think would beinteresting, we love getting
those. And if you have aparticular question that you
want us to answer, reach out.
We're happy to do that, andotherwise we will see you next
(47:43):
week. Take care. You.
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