Are you navigating the tricky world of dating after divorce? In this heartfelt and hilarious episode, we sit down with the incredible Andrea Baker, an actor, voiceover artist, and co-host of the pet-centric podcast Tales to Tell. Andrea opens up about her personal journey through divorce, the unexpected twists of dating midlife, and the surprising lessons learned along the way. Together, we explore the challenges of rediscovering yourself, setting boundaries, and embracing both independence and connection.
Andrea’s candid and relatable storytelling will leave you inspired and laughing, while her practical insights might just reshape how you think about love, self-worth, and new beginnings.
Episode Highlights:
[0:01] - Welcoming Andrea Baker and diving into her unique journey post-divorce.
[3:09] - The harsh realities of starting to date again after a major breakup.
[8:55] - Andrea’s wisdom on healing from infidelity and the importance of self-care.
[14:25] - The lessons learned from dating younger men and embracing new experiences.
[19:52] - Andrea’s “onboarding process” for dating—grammar checks included!
[28:31] - How Andrea turned her divorce into an empowering “freedom tour.”
[37:24] - The ultimate takeaway: love yourself first, and live your best life—partner or not.
Resources:
- Connect with Andrea on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@andreaebaker
- Listen to Andrea’s podcast: Tales to Tell (For pet lovers and professionals alike!): https://open.spotify.com/show/099CknEDl92F3ANh9HFSrz
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura Bowman (00:01):
Andrea, welcome back, everybody to another
episode of insights from thecouch. We are doing part two of
our dating at midlife. We have avery special guest today, Andrea
Baker, who is an actor andvoiceover artist best known for
her work in Pleasantville,90210, General Hospital.
(00:24):
Remember the Titans, totallyspies, Mad Men and The Sopranos.
She is currently co producingher first podcast called tales
to tell she's a friend of thepod and a generally hilarious
and vulnerable human who wewanted to have on to talk about
her journey dating a good life.
Unknown (00:46):
I can't wait. Welcome the
Andrea Baker (00:49):
journey for the capital J
Colette Fehr (00:50):
I was telling Laura right before you hopped
on, I was 11 years between mymarriages, so I did a lot of
dating, and right before I metmy husband, ironically, I got to
this place where I remembersaying I'm really happy on my
own, yeah, finally, it's legit.
I would love to have connectionand love in my life, and if that
ever comes my way, I willembrace it. But I can also see a
(01:11):
life where I have my connectionthrough my friendships and my
family relationships. So itsounds like you've gotten to
that same place, and it's abeautiful place to be, it's got
to be organic. I
Andrea Baker (01:23):
totally have tried to fake it, because you've, I've
heard this story before. Like,as soon as you're out looking
that's when it happens. I mean,the longer I'm single, I'm like,
the landscapers starting to lookkind of cute, like, I remember
it happening to me in my 20s. Iwas working in LA. I was dating
a little bit, but I was sofocused on my career, and I
didn't want to shit where youeat, right? Like, it's a camping
(01:47):
rule, and I and, you know, on aset in a movies, like everyone
it's the opportunities areendless. But I did not that was
like, I'm not doing it that way.
I'm not doing it that way. So Iwould never, I would keep
everyone I worked with at anarm's length distance, and then,
yeah, that's when I met my nowex, which, you know, hindsight,
so I do think there's somethingto it. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (02:08):
there is. And it's right, it's not like because I
was in the place too, of, oh,I'm not really looking, because
that's when I'll meet someone.
And it really is that sense ofbeing okay. And also, I think we
have to say it's not a place ofisolation, it's a place of
action, like, your life feelsfull, but you're not desperate
for our partner. And it soundsto me like even as the
(02:29):
landscaper might look cutebecause you're only around who
you're around, like, Oh, thatwould be a fun snack or
whatever. But it's also going totake somebody really, great,
maybe to be worth it, and that'sthe hardest part of dating that
I hear from friends and clients,and I went through myself, is
that, you know, if someone greatcame along, we're wired for
(02:51):
connection. We want to be withother people, but it's really
hard to find someone good. Socan you talk a little bit about,
first of all, how long you'vebeen divorced and maybe what
dating was like for you when youfirst got back out there?
Because I know a lot of ourlisteners are, yeah,
Andrea Baker (03:09):
it's awful. I would never, I wouldn't even
wish it on literally, my ex, whoyou know, is now married to the
person he got together with whenwe were still married, right? So
that's that's a really toughtransition to be. You know, have
a step parent who really crossedthe line with me on so many
levels. And did you know he didthat thing that men often do,
(03:32):
which is made me feel like itwas 100% my fault? And of
course, he's my person. We weretogether for 17 years. He's
telling me I'm this horriblecreature, and I believe him. So
then I, you know, I wentthrough, I did, like a
psychoanalysis. I did, like anintense neurological study,
because I was like, I think I'mokay. I must be so delusional,
(03:55):
you know? And so then I cameback with, like, actually,
you're pretty smart. You do havea little anxiety. You have some
add, but you're fine. And I waslike, Oh, okay. And then, you
know, then the the truth startscoming out as the time goes by,
and you, you know, realize thatwhat really happened and how
that was so much more painfulthan it had to be like you we
(04:17):
could have had a conversation.
You could have treated me withrespect, and you both could have
not trampled all over me to getwhat you wanted.
Colette Fehr (04:24):
This is such a human story that so many and
first of all, I'm so sorry youwent through that, because it's
so painful, but the betrayal ofit, and the experience of it,
it's it's really, really hard,and I relate a lot to what
you're saying. So what I wonder,though, is when you say, you
know, you could have been morehonest. You could have come to
(04:45):
me and like, in a way, and Ithink this is what people as a
couple of therapists, I work alot with infidelity, and it's
really you're not ever doing itfor the person to oh, I don't
want to hurt them. If you're inlove with someone else or you
want to. Be with someone else,right? Tell your partner, as
hard as that is, at least own upto it as an adult and say, Look,
(05:08):
I don't want to be in thisanymore, because that's the
like, bare minimum of respectfor someone else, and that's
what you're referring to, right?
Like, come to me and be honest,instead of really crazy, I'm
fucked up and flawed. Yeah, it'slike gaslighting on a as you're
Laura Bowman (05:23):
betraying but let's be honest about how hard
it is for people to grapple withtheir own shame around like they
have to make someone else be thebad guy in order to feel okay
about making decisions likethat. So like, right? You don't
have to, but that's what makespeople change the way, like,
people drive away from the sceneof an accident, you shouldn't do
(05:44):
that do but for some reason,people do it all the time. It's
so
Andrea Baker (05:48):
I think that too.
I mean, I, you know, hindsightnow, and I so, I, I've been
divorced nine years, so it'sbeen a minute. I think the the
scar tissue, you know, has,like, got my I've grown around
it, and it's fine, you know. Butat the beginning, I mean, so
eviscerated, like, just slicedopen, raw. And then, you know,
(06:08):
the one of the first people Idated, it was very slow. It was
great. It was so he was it wasvery gentle getting to know. But
then when we got to the physicalaspects. There were, you know,
there was STDs involved. Therewere, like, long term, like,
effects that could happen. And Ithat was like, what, you know, I
made it to 45 now I'm, this iswhat I'm grappling with, like,
(06:33):
what is happening. And ofcourse, that wasn't great for
him, for for that to be myreaction, I'm sure. But I was so
naive at the time, notrecognizing, like one in five
men and one in six women, orwhatever this is. And it's, you
know, it's very common. I mean,I think if I was deeply in love
with someone and knew that thiswas really going somewhere, I
(06:56):
would be 100% fine with riskingthat, yeah,
Colette Fehr (07:02):
because, like, every other person has an STD,
but to be like, if not every
Andrea Baker (07:06):
dating not sure where it's going, and then
risking that, like, I'm gonnahave this souvenir for the rest
of my life, because I tried thisthing, like, not for me, that's
not for me. So
Colette Fehr (07:17):
since your 20s, so you don't even really know
what's out there dating? Howwould you even know what people
have with us or what? Literally,had not thought
Andrea Baker (07:27):
about it. I did go and get myself checked out.
Yeah, and they were even, thatwas the craziest thing. Is they,
they kind of discouraged me. Mydoctor was like, Well, why do
you want to know? I'm like,well, I need to know. Like, I'm
not going to be, I'm not goingto be frivolous with other
people's health, and they'relike, Well, I'm like, what? Like
the fact that they're not evenencouraging people to find out,
(07:48):
because you might not know,
Laura Bowman (07:49):
but so, so interesting. You say that, like,
I had a client who, she dated aguy, and then he ended up being
unfaithful to her, and she wentto her doctor just to do one of
these, like, prevent, like,totally check it up on it, and
it was so good she did, becauseshe had, like, a form of HPV
that was like, stay superaggressive. Had she not done
that 100% had cervical cancer,make sure
Andrea Baker (08:12):
you're, you're healthy and what you're, you
know, offering and sharing. Ifyou have something, you can have
a adult conversation about it,which I have the utmost respect
for that guy, because he told meup front, so Thank God you know,
because, yeah, you know, Ididn't even know to ask those
questions at that point in mylife. And then,
Colette Fehr (08:31):
right? And you're still recovering from this
enormous betrayal, and thenafter the betrayal, it's also
this person, the affair partner,is now in your life so and was
immediately in your life,immediately, oh my gosh. Okay,
so just because we're on thisand it's so do you have any
(08:51):
words of wisdom for recoveringfrom right infidelity?
Andrea Baker (08:55):
I got really, really good at tennis because I
think it's so good to hitsomething as hard as you can.
And that's appropriate. That'slike, it's I my joke is I play
tennis so I don't run peopleover with my car, and I'm really
good at it, like releasinganger, release I don't know
that's how I manage that kind offeeling, because I don't want it
to come out in my nasty words orhold it in and get some illness
(09:18):
or get some lump in my wherever,because I do. That's my belief.
Like, those are those things youhave to expel them. I have
since, like, gone through allthe phases, the grief, stages of
grief, and all that you have togo through them. You can't deny
them, and you do. I also givemyself huge grace when the
energy fails me to stay strongand I go and I lay in my bed
(09:43):
and, you know, eat ice cream orwhatever, I do not beat myself
up for that. Not once have Ilike, I'm just like, Yep, this
is my body telling me it's whatit needs right now. And I
respect it and I trust it, and Ialso I'm very good and aware of
speaking well to myself, like Ibelieve myself. Hear me like,
when a cold is coming, I'm like,You got this, you get them white
(10:05):
blood cells. You can do it. I'mhere for you. Reinforcing your
own bio, you know, verse,whatever the words are, is just
reinforcing that positive andsurrounding your people with
your people, like I was socareful of the people that were.
I mean, I remember this onecouple being like, finding out
(10:28):
what had happened, and we hadbeen friends as a couple, and
they were continuing to befriends with him, which I didn't
know at the time when we werehaving this conversation. But
the way that she was like, Yeah,you know it happens like, oh
well, just exercising anyonelike, remove. Don't keep looking
at the pictures. Like, block anddelete. Don't it's, it's so
(10:52):
painful to have a picture youlook on your social media and
you've got their fabulousvacation photo and your face
that will ruin your freakingweek. Like, don't do that to
yourself. Delete, block, yeah,and then and find the people
that make you laugh and make youfeel good about yourself and and
like and comment and follow themand tell the algorithm to send
(11:13):
you more of that. I mean, itmight have been Laura. Someone
was like, anger is healthy ifyou use it properly. You know,
like, I never lived out any ofmy revenge fantasies, like I
never did any of the things, butthe thoughts were like, it's
okay to have those thoughts.
It's okay to imagine a fiery carcrash. It's okay. I didn't make
it happen, but it was okay toimagine that that like would
(11:34):
happen, and I'm not a bad personfor that. So giving yourself a
ton of grace. It's hard. It'sthere's no there's no quick fix,
there's no pill, there's nothere's no drink. It's
Colette Fehr (11:48):
a long road, it really is, and there's no way to
short circuit it. So then, asyou go into dating, is this also
part of it? I mean, I know itwas for me, having been cheated
on in the past as well, formany, many, many years, in some
of the most painful wayspossible, that it's just human,
it's going to shake your trustwell,
Andrea Baker (12:09):
like, then the next person that I really
thought, Oh, wow. Like, this iswhy I got divorced. I'm going to
be with this guy. Like, I'm soexcited, and I was so clingy,
like, I glommed onto him, like avirus. I mean, we're talking
about, I should, I need tochange the metaphor. But, like,
I just, I was like, Call me.
Call me when you get in theplane, call me when you land,
(12:31):
you know. Like, and I think itwas fun for a minute, but then
it was like, Whoa, you know. Andunder, like, I look back now and
I cringe at, you know, how I wasthen, so needy, yeah, but I was
so, yeah, I was, I was notstable. I was like, a, you know,
a wiggle, weeble wobble, right?
Like you you wobble, but youdon't fall down. Like I looked
(12:52):
okay on the outside. People werelike, you're, you know, you're
highly functioning. You seemgreat. But I was not on the
inside. I was a weeble wobble. Iwas like, trying to find solid
ground and I and looking for itin someone else is never the
answer, right you. We all knowthat,
Laura Bowman (13:06):
if you were to go back to that woman, would you
have, like, said you need, like,a timeout for a while? Like,
dating is not where to be rightnow. Or did you need all those
experiences to kind of show youthat stuff? I'm
Andrea Baker (13:20):
a big believer in, like, the harder thing you do,
the greater the reward. So Ifeel like it was, would have
been easier to hole up, youknow, it's, it's today. It's
like, it's always easier for meto say no and stay home. I mean,
this is I'm in my office, rightdown the street, you know,
hallway from my bedroom, like Icould never leave the house with
Instacart now, like, but theharder thing is to say yes to
(13:41):
the thing and go and then seewhat happens. And you either,
you know, in tennis, you eitherwin or you learn, right? So in
Dayton, you either, you know,get some or you learn something.
But when an opportunity, like,it was a friend from my past
that came back, he had gonethrough a divorce, or was in
the, you know, end stages of adivorce, so I was super like,
wow. Like, this is allhappening. It's meant to be I
(14:03):
thought I had manifested him,because I remember walking and
being like, I just want to meetsomeone that's that I can trust
from my past, like someone thatI have history with. That's all
I want. And literally, I don'tknow, three days later, he was
like, Hey, you want to meet forcoffee? I was like, Oh, my God,
I'm this. I am the most magicalcreature. Wow, manifested my
next relationship.
Colette Fehr (14:25):
So what did you learn from that relationship?
Andrea Baker (14:28):
I learned that men don't want too much difficulty,
especially like older, verysuccessful men, they prefer like
an easy relationship, which Iget like they're out there
fighting wars. And that was notthe only, you know, my age,
successful man that I havedated, but the one common thread
(14:51):
is they really their life iswhat their life is that they've
built from scratch, that they'resuper proud of, which kudos, but
they're. No sense of, like,what's you? What have you built?
How do we fit? It's more. Thisis where I'm at. And how are you
gonna cut? Fold in? Like you'regonna fold in, because
Colette Fehr (15:11):
that's not a real relationship, and that's not and
easy being easy. This is the ageold thing of, like, good girl,
itis right that that you wantthis perfect doll that has only
plastic parts. Obviously, I'mspeaking
Andrea Baker (15:28):
end up with,
Unknown (15:29):
I don't know they
Colette Fehr (15:32):
got plastic parts, right, right? Okay, okay,
literally and metaphorically,but I think beyond the looks,
it's the idea of like you'rehappy and you're positive and
you smile and you don't rock theboat too much, and you're not
seen as, God forbid, fuckingshutter, a difficult woman. And
(15:52):
really, what a difficult womanmeans is somebody who is
assertive about her own needsand willing to speak the truth
about her feelings, and is notjust going to swallow it when
something this fabulous man,successful man with his
organized life, does to upsetyou. I mean, it just it really
(16:14):
sparks an ember of outrage inme, because this is the
conundrum for women, is that wecan mistakenly think that to be
loved by the partner we want, weneed to fit into their world and
into their box.
Andrea Baker (16:28):
I think it came as like a bit of a shock, but then
also sort of common. It was socommon, it was so normalized
that that also made me go, Well,I that was probably the first
time I opted out. I was like, Ithink I'll just be alone then,
like, if that's how it's goingto be. And then then the younger
men were so easy. I mean,they're so easy, you know? I
(16:52):
mean,
Laura Bowman (16:53):
tell us about the younger men. Like, I'm
fascinated by this. Like, whatwas that? Like? I was like,
Andrea Baker (17:00):
I'm definitely not interested in any sort of who
I'm going to bring home to myfamily kind of person. I'm like,
exploring all the things I nevertried, you know, race, religion,
creed, like age, age, like it. Iwas open to see what might
happen. I mean, I'm veryselective. So it's not like I
was like, every week was adifferent person I would, I was,
(17:20):
like, I was with someone formonths. I mean, one was, like, a
year and a half, this young guywho, you know, if I had been the
man, I would have been dragginghim to all the parties to show
off, because he was gorgeous,like, model type, significant
age difference, yeah, but a fulladult, he was a full adult, but,
yeah, you know, and he had ajob, he traveled, he was a he, I
(17:43):
don't know, I'm not going to saymore about it, because he's a
professional person. But yeah,we had a great there was no, it
was just fun, you know, we thereweren't lots of deep we would
talk about things that weredeep, but it was just fun, but
Colette Fehr (18:02):
it's become such a thing now, and it is nice that
women you know that the cultureis shifting. When you see all
these movies now, there's allthese Netflix shows. There's a
new one right now, but a 60 yearold woman being with a younger
man, there was the Nicole Kidmanone, right, where it's the
daughter's love interest, butthen she's the one who will them
(18:24):
more. And at that time, that wasconsidered horribly, yeah,
whatever,
Andrea Baker (18:32):
because I, I do think it has its place. And like
men do, and men do it all thetime, it's so common for the new
divorce, a divorce guy to be atthe party with the young thing,
and the guys are like, but forsome reason it seems more
biological. So cool way to go.
Where if I did it, no one wouldhave high fived me. Women,
Laura Bowman (18:53):
very often are so like, you gotta tell me
everything about your exrelationships, every marriage
you've been in, why you got outof them. Who are you? Now, can I
trust you? I mean, do you findthat you when you, especially as
you start to feel close tosomeone that that comes up a lot
of like, Can I really trust thishuman,
Andrea Baker (19:14):
you know, yeah, like, the trauma response, the
triggering, all those things areabsolutely real, and I think,
you know, way more intense inthe early years than now, like
it's all sort of more dullednow, but, I mean, I definitely
had to find my boundaries, whichis like, I'm gonna do a
(19:35):
background check on you. That'sit. Like, there's no, I'm not
gonna negotiate that with you,sir, I always say I have an
onboarding process. So myonboarding process is the text,
okay, like it's initially atext. Do you say it like that?
Again, I'm still single, sodon't do what I do.
Colette Fehr (19:53):
But what's your onboarding process? I love this
idea. How
Andrea Baker (19:56):
many grammatical errors are we making, and do
they? Know? There, there, there.
Your your big if they say, youknow, thank thank you, or you're
welcome, you know, if that, ifyou can't do your welcome, I'm
probably, we're probably notgonna,
Colette Fehr (20:14):
how much effort will you make?
Andrea Baker (20:16):
I mean, so that's easy. That's those are easy to
just like swipe what's the, youknow, when you don't like them
left, like, right, swipe left,if you like your we're done
here. So then, but if all thatgoes well, then we're gonna have
a phone interview. And, like, Iremember calling one guy with,
you know, it was a, it was aspecific time we're gonna have a
call. And I called, and youcould tell he was, like, laying
(20:38):
down, you know, like napping.
And he's just very like, yeah.
And I think within 30 seconds or15 seconds, I was like, You know
what? This isn't gonna work out.
You know, bye, bye. And I justlike, hung up. Because why?
Amanda was five more minuteswith just to be polite to
someone who clearly is not thatinto what's happening here,
(20:58):
which is fine. Like, maybe hewould have worked all night,
and, like, maybe I really missedmy chance on that one. But these
apps and these strangers, likethey don't there's no value till
there's value, right? And youhave to be protecting yourself
until you feel safe enough toopen up to be vulnerable. And
it's not, it's self preservationfirst, because no one else is
(21:21):
coming. I mean, that's, I mean,when I had a chicken coop and
the snake was in the chickencoop, and I was like, Oh, my
God, oh, no one's coming. It's,I have to deal with the snake
and the chicken no one's coming.
There's no one to screen, helpto and that's, I mean, so I'm
gonna look out for me all theway until someone is proven,
(21:45):
entity, proven over again,entity that is safe, secure and
understanding of your bear.
You're scared to be embarrassed.
I'm scared to die. That's it.
Like you have to adjustyourself. I'm not adjusting my
fear of death because it I can'tI will die because then I'll be
down.
Colette Fehr (22:05):
And that's just a certain level of safety and
practicality that is the realityfor women. We really have to
look out for ourselves. And thenthere's also the second layer
you're pointing to, which is,you know, identifying certain
little, tiny behaviors that tellyou, you know, this is early,
right? And it reminds me, as Ilisten to you, I got to this
(22:29):
place because I was like an Uberdater for a while. Like, I mean,
I, you know, I approach thingsusually with Augusto, so if I'm
doing it, I'm all in. And Ialmost became like a
professional dater for a while.
One day I went, Wow, four datesin one day,
Andrea Baker (22:45):
I'm exhausted.
That was my Matthew about it. Ohmy gosh, right. It was
literally, like, if you have youknow how to do the grammar, you
can have a reasonableconversation lets me and you're
not scared to tell me your lastname, or maybe, I mean, you
don't show your drivers, like,your full name, and like, do
you? Are you? Are you residentof the state, and maybe how old
(23:06):
you are? Because then I candefinitely get, yeah, you know,
any criminal records. But like,if they're willing to do all
that, then, yeah, I want to meetyou before we start talking. And
if they're like, Oh, I can'tmeet for two weeks, I'm like,
that's fine, let me know, andwe'll set up a time in two
weeks. But don't text me andtalk to me between that, because
I'm not interested. Don't useall my time. Yes, they wanted to
(23:28):
do that whole game withoutmeeting, and I that was a
boundary, like so I have, youknow that was about, no, I'm not
doing that
Colette Fehr (23:39):
exactly. And you know what? A lot of people like
that because they want to feelpsychologically like there are
people out there and they haveirons in the fire, but they
don't actually want to divest ofthemselves and put any energy in
a real, authentic way into you.
And so it's a total waste oftime. Save it. Save it. Save
Andrea Baker (23:56):
it till it means something to me.
Laura Bowman (23:58):
I would be so bad at all of this. I mean, you guys
know me, like, I've been marriedfor 24 years and like I every
guy I ever dated, even myhusband, falls into this
category. Like was a really goodfriend first, like, you have to
be my friend. I have no interestin being sexually sized up. It's
(24:20):
by some middle aged dude who,yeah, I can't handle that. My
nervous system can't handlethat, and I know it is
successful.
Andrea Baker (24:28):
I mean, like Colette, how did you meet your
husband? Did you meet him on oneof those 15 minute
Colette Fehr (24:32):
dates? No, I met him organically in a restaurant.
But I met him because, and thisis my and I'm not going to tell
the whole long, boring story,because I've already probably
told already probably told it onthe podcast, but what I love
about you either lose or youeither win or you learn. I had
the most heartbreakingrelationship of my life was the
(24:55):
guy I dated after my divorce. Itabsolutely. It was the most
intense connection I ever had,and my heart was broken in a way
that it took me over a year andI did every embarrassing,
cliched thing, like not beingable to let go, sobbing
uncontrollably in public, chainsmoking cigarettes, calling him
(25:16):
when I shouldn't be calling,like all the all the
embarrassing thing, like I wasjust absolutely ripped to shreds
emotionally by the breakup. AndI remember at points thinking,
there is nothing good that willcome of this. This is just too
much pain to ever have ajustifiable reason. And of
course, eventually I healed andI got past it, and I was like,
(25:39):
holy shit. Talk about having tohave compassion for your younger
self. I had to give myself a lotof grace that, you know, until I
got divorced, I was with the guyI met at a at a like dark wasted
bar in college when I was 18. SoI had no real world experience
whatsoever with dating. I hadn'tgiven my heart to anybody as an
(26:01):
adult, ever other than my exhusband, and that really formed
as as children. So the point ofthis is that I met my husband
ironically because of thatrelationship, because he had she
that other guy had cheated on mewith a woman who went to a
certain school, and I walked bymy husband and his friends at a
table watching a game of thatschool, and I said something out
(26:26):
loud disparaging about theschool that my husband went to
the same school. And so when Icame and I was a little tipsy,
and, you know, I say way morethan I should. And so when I
came back out, my husband hadheard my voice, and he was like,
God, that's some other bitchyNew Yorker, you know, bashing my
rural school. And I came out,and he, like, pointed at the
(26:46):
little logo on his shirt andgave me a nasty look. And I went
over to my friends and said,Wow, that is a group of Grumpy
Old Men who seriously need toget laid. And I thought, because
he's 10 years older than I was,and we ended up, the night went
on, we ended up talking becausewe were the only people in the
restaurant. And I explained tohim that my reaction was a
(27:09):
result of being cheated on. Andso the irony, you know, so many
years later, this was five yearsafter that relationship ended,
and had I never dated that otherguy who broke my heart, I would
have never met my husband. So ithad a really beautiful outcome.
And I do think even these badexperiences are all grist for
(27:31):
the mill, and like, prepare usfor the best relationship with
ourselves and to meet a goodpartner well. And
Andrea Baker (27:38):
honestly, I was telling Laura I listened to the
guys, you know, your two partguy version. And I just felt
like, wow, their goal ismarriage. Their goal is, is
marriage, right? And, and Idon't want to get married again.
Like, I'm not gonna have kids.
Obviously, the oven is closed. Idon't I'm not interested in in
getting legally like I I'mcontent with my financial
(28:03):
situation. I don't want to giveor take from anyone like I would
like to meet an equal and have aequal partnership that has
nothing to do with entanglingeach other's assets or whatever
I'm thinking.
Laura Bowman (28:22):
Of our listeners who maybe they're single for the
first time, or maybe they'vebeen single for a long time.
What's our best advice?
Andrea Baker (28:31):
I did the divorce tour. I said I should make T
shirts I have bag will travel.
And I went every time, becausethe hardest part when your kids
are still live with you is I hadto go, and I've listened to your
empty nest one, and I've sharedit a bunch, because I had to do
that with eight and 10 year oldkids gone for a week at a time.
(28:52):
It is the most unnatural,uncomfortable thing to have
happen and, and, and it's justdoesn't feel like, who am I?
What is my value in this worldif I'm not taking care of my own
children like I don't, Icouldn't see straight. It was so
hard. And so being alone in myhouse was not good for my mental
(29:15):
health at that point. And I justwent and visited all my friends
from college, anyone that wasgoing anywhere or would want me
around third wheeled, it allover the world. Literally did
trips that I would have neverdone. Married, did things that I
would have never done if I wasmarried with kids like I had
(29:36):
this freedom that I decided toinvest in and and find pleasure
for myself, because thealternative was just misery,
misery. And I refused. I refusedto have that be like Pull Me
Under, because it would have, Ithink, if I hadn't had my
divorce tour 2015 which I shouldhave made t shirt. Words,
Colette Fehr (30:00):
that's great advice, and I want to echo that,
that live your best life, right?
Really, go and find what fillsyou up, and don't focus all your
energy on meeting someone,either to just have connection
or to like, meet the needs thatyou can find in other
relationships and experiencesand within yourself, be busy
(30:21):
living your great life, but Iwant to add to that, and at the
same time, be open. And I dothink, because I have many
friends and I've had manyclients who can get stuck in the
well, I'm not ready to date, andthen that becomes life. And
people, when we're hurt, andwe've all been hurt. Most people
don't get to our age, and theyhaven't ever been abandoned or
(30:45):
rejected by someone part of thehuman experience. Don't close
yourself off because somethinghappened to you, and I know
that's easier said than done,but I think that's an active
process. You can be in aconversation with yourself about
every day, go on dates, putyourself out there, risk another
disappointment, and also liveyour best life. I think
Andrea Baker (31:09):
a lot of people get into competition with their
ex. So their ex is now, youknow, getting married, you know,
engaged, getting married andliving with that person,
whatever it is. And you think,Oh, my God, I'm, you know, I'm
getting I've gotten left behind.
I totally got left behind inthat. And I could have been,
like, just glommed on to someoneor, you know, and I just
thought, no, like, I found agreat therapist. I found someone
(31:32):
to make me recognize, like, whatI my values are, what like folk
don't like I said, Turn off allthose social medias. Remove
yourself from the friends thatare gonna like. Some people love
to show up and give me the fillme in on what's going on over
there.
Colette Fehr (31:52):
Oh, everyone wanted to do that with me, and
everyone wanted to bring it up.
People still bring it up. I'vebeen divorced for 20 years. I'm
like, I don't know what my exhusband and his wife do with
their life, and I don't care. Imean, part
Andrea Baker (32:03):
like, it's hard to when those kids evolve. So like,
I get, like, I do want to knowto us to an extent now they're
old enough that I have therelationship with them directly.
So I don't, I'm not questioning,right, me too, that stuff
anymore, but I get theinclination I don't think anyone
was doing it maliciously. Ithink they're thinking, you
(32:24):
know, they're giving me intelthat might be helpful in some
way, but if it's not helpful,you should yeah, no, thank you.
No, thank you and not Yeah.
Surround yourself with yourtribe, find your people, do what
you love and and be your bestself and and keep showing up in
the same way, like be the sameperson. So when, when the new
(32:47):
mom or whatever is buying theiraffection, and they're and
they're saying things you know,because hopefully you're mature,
and you edify each other asparents and as as humans to
their your children, because thebest advice I got from my
lifelong friend, she had me, shehad me talking about my dad,
who's he just passed last year,but just the greatest man on the
(33:10):
planet, and that's and she hadme talking about him for 20
minutes, and she said, Yeah,that's so amazing. You need to
do that for your children, like,give your children that it was
the best advice, because all Iwanted to do was be like, Oh
yeah, careful. He's a lying,cheating son of a bitch, and
she's so awful. Don't trust aword they say. But I never let
(33:32):
myself do that, because they arehalf him. So if I'm talking ill
of him, I'm speaking ill ofthem. And that is not okay,
Colette Fehr (33:45):
right? It only damages the children. Give your
kids the
Andrea Baker (33:49):
opportunity to love their parent and have,
like, great experiences withtheir parent and be happy for
them for doing it like I wouldsay, like you're so lucky you
have, you know, three people nowthat love you, and you know, I
don't even like to shop. You'reso lucky. She loves to shop and
wants to, you know, she, youknow, is giving you gifts you
love, that that's how great.
Meanwhile, you know, I'm in theother room going, you mother
(34:10):
fucking bitch, like,
Unknown (34:12):
stop by my
Andrea Baker (34:13):
kitchen. But I didn't ever do that. I just did
it in the shower and hit thetennis ball super fucking hard,
and
Colette Fehr (34:20):
I made a choice to really just detach from the
whole thing that my happinesswasn't tied to them. I had
divorced parents, and I knew theimportance, even before I became
a therapist, of speaking highlyof your parent, and I knew how
it felt when I heard my parentssay things about each other at
(34:42):
times of emotion, and I wasdetermined to rise above all of
that and to just realize that,you know, their life is their
life, and my life is my life,and I'm going to focus on me,
and what they do or don't do isjust going to have no impact on
me, because. It's not, first ofall, it's out of my control, and
second of all, it's my life tofill with what I want to fill it
(35:05):
with. It takes being reallyintentional about it. But I did
not want to be that person,because I've had these clients,
and I've seen it in my personallife, who, 20 years later,
they're still bitter and angryabout the situation, and that is
a choice to not move on. Oh, youcan get stuck in anger and
resentment and grief and woe isme and that at that point, you
(35:30):
can't control who betrays you,but you can control how long you
and I think
Andrea Baker (35:34):
generationally, like my, my aunt, her husband
left her, and, yeah, she's beenalone 30 years, still angry at
him, you know, and you justthink I so I had, I saw what
that could be, and I have nointerest in living my life like
that. Burn in daylight. I'm alover like I want to love and
(35:54):
have joy and make people laugh,and I I'm not. That's not for
me, and there's so much, so manythings outside of their
personal, sexual, intimaterelationship, that you can enjoy
and focus your energy. I mean,I'm 54 I just got my 200 hour
yoga teacher training like, youknow, like, just keep growing.
(36:18):
Andrea, nothing new to learn.
There's something new to investyour time and energy on. I mean,
podcasting, like, I, you know,I'm going to be a Podcast
Producer, that's what I'm into.
Like, I love it. It's all new.
It's so fun for me. I mean, Iknow it's not new, but it's new
for me. Find a new passion, Findit. Find something that draws
you in positively. And yeah,these men, they can't be alone
(36:40):
for five minutes. Hopefullyyou'll have me on here in five
years, and I'll be like, here heis. Like, he's amazing, but if
Yeah, I'm not, I literally don'tsee it anymore. Like, I don't
see it. So it's okay. Would itbe great to have an equal
partner that actually we foldedinto each other, versus having
to fold into someone else's lifelike that would be amazing,
Laura Bowman (37:06):
and it could be love, but it could just be a
really great quality. Nothingbetter than being
Andrea Baker (37:11):
like in Spain and going I would have never done
this if I was married, and hereI am on this adventure in Spain
like that's a benefit. Plus, Ihave no in laws, no in laws,
winning. And I
Colette Fehr (37:24):
think, like, just as a final takeaway before we
wrap up, is really that it canbe great either way, right?
Don't compromise yourself. Beopen, live your best life, and
like you're gonna find a lifethat fulfills you, and it
doesn't have to be with apartner, and it doesn't have to
be without a partner. Thereisn't one way to do
Laura Bowman (37:43):
it. Grow together.
Yeah, develop yourself. Yeah.
Colette Fehr (37:48):
So that is the message. And you were tell us
before we sign off, how tell ouraudience how they can find you
your new podcast. Oh, well,
Andrea Baker (37:57):
I so tales to tell, spelled like a dog tail,
because it's with the DR Jackie,who's a local vet. It's really a
podcast for pet owners, for petprofessionals, for anyone that's
involved and loves animals. Andit's so informative and fun, and
I love it. So yeah, tales totell with Jackie Burt, and then,
(38:19):
yeah, I'm Andrea e Baker oneverything I think Andrea e
Baker on like, tick tock, I havea private Instagram. I I got
some, I had some wacky Instagramso tick tock. I just make silly,
funny videos, like that one Iwas telling you about Laura.
Yeah, she's
Laura Bowman (38:33):
very funny. You
Colette Fehr (38:35):
guys can connect with Andrea there. Check out her
podcast. It sounds wonderful.
Animals are even better thanpeople, sometimes. And thank you
so much for being on and thankyou everyone for listening. We
will be back soon, and hope yougot lots of great insights from
our couch.
Laura Bowman (38:54):
Bye, guys, bye, bye.
Andrea, welcome back, everybody to another
episode of insights from thecouch. We are doing part two of
our dating at midlife. We have avery special guest today, Andrea
Baker, who is an actor andvoiceover artist best known for
her work in Pleasantville,90210, General Hospital.
(00:24):
Remember the Titans, totallyspies, Mad Men and The Sopranos.
She is currently co producingher first podcast called tales
to tell she's a friend of thepod and a generally hilarious
and vulnerable human who wewanted to have on to talk about
her journey dating a good life.
Unknown (00:46):
I can't wait. Welcome the
Andrea Baker (00:49):
journey for the capital J
Colette Fehr (00:50):
I was telling Laura right before you hopped
on, I was 11 years between mymarriages, so I did a lot of
dating, and right before I metmy husband, ironically, I got to
this place where I remembersaying I'm really happy on my
own, yeah, finally, it's legit.
I would love to have connectionand love in my life, and if that
ever comes my way, I willembrace it. But I can also see a
(01:11):
life where I have my connectionthrough my friendships and my
family relationships. So itsounds like you've gotten to
that same place, and it's abeautiful place to be, it's got
to be organic. I
Andrea Baker (01:23):
totally have tried to fake it, because you've, I've
heard this story before. Like,as soon as you're out looking
that's when it happens. I mean,the longer I'm single, I'm like,
the landscapers starting to lookkind of cute, like, I remember
it happening to me in my 20s. Iwas working in LA. I was dating
a little bit, but I was sofocused on my career, and I
didn't want to shit where youeat, right? Like, it's a camping
(01:47):
rule, and I and, you know, on aset in a movies, like everyone
it's the opportunities areendless. But I did not that was
like, I'm not doing it that way.
I'm not doing it that way. So Iwould never, I would keep
everyone I worked with at anarm's length distance, and then,
yeah, that's when I met my nowex, which, you know, hindsight,
so I do think there's somethingto it. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (02:08):
there is. And it's right, it's not like because I
was in the place too, of, oh,I'm not really looking, because
that's when I'll meet someone.
And it really is that sense ofbeing okay. And also, I think we
have to say it's not a place ofisolation, it's a place of
action, like, your life feelsfull, but you're not desperate
for our partner. And it soundsto me like even as the
(02:29):
landscaper might look cutebecause you're only around who
you're around, like, Oh, thatwould be a fun snack or
whatever. But it's also going totake somebody really, great,
maybe to be worth it, and that'sthe hardest part of dating that
I hear from friends and clients,and I went through myself, is
that, you know, if someone greatcame along, we're wired for
(02:51):
connection. We want to be withother people, but it's really
hard to find someone good. Socan you talk a little bit about,
first of all, how long you'vebeen divorced and maybe what
dating was like for you when youfirst got back out there?
Because I know a lot of ourlisteners are, yeah,
Andrea Baker (03:09):
it's awful. I would never, I wouldn't even
wish it on literally, my ex, whoyou know, is now married to the
person he got together with whenwe were still married, right? So
that's that's a really toughtransition to be. You know, have
a step parent who really crossedthe line with me on so many
levels. And did you know he didthat thing that men often do,
(03:32):
which is made me feel like itwas 100% my fault? And of
course, he's my person. We weretogether for 17 years. He's
telling me I'm this horriblecreature, and I believe him. So
then I, you know, I wentthrough, I did, like a
psychoanalysis. I did, like anintense neurological study,
because I was like, I think I'mokay. I must be so delusional,
(03:55):
you know? And so then I cameback with, like, actually,
you're pretty smart. You do havea little anxiety. You have some
add, but you're fine. And I waslike, Oh, okay. And then, you
know, then the the truth startscoming out as the time goes by,
and you, you know, realize thatwhat really happened and how
that was so much more painfulthan it had to be like you we
(04:17):
could have had a conversation.
You could have treated me withrespect, and you both could have
not trampled all over me to getwhat you wanted.
Colette Fehr (04:24):
This is such a human story that so many and
first of all, I'm so sorry youwent through that, because it's
so painful, but the betrayal ofit, and the experience of it,
it's it's really, really hard,and I relate a lot to what
you're saying. So what I wonder,though, is when you say, you
know, you could have been morehonest. You could have come to
(04:45):
me and like, in a way, and Ithink this is what people as a
couple of therapists, I work alot with infidelity, and it's
really you're not ever doing itfor the person to oh, I don't
want to hurt them. If you're inlove with someone else or you
want to. Be with someone else,right? Tell your partner, as
hard as that is, at least own upto it as an adult and say, Look,
(05:08):
I don't want to be in thisanymore, because that's the
like, bare minimum of respectfor someone else, and that's
what you're referring to, right?
Like, come to me and be honest,instead of really crazy, I'm
fucked up and flawed. Yeah, it'slike gaslighting on a as you're
Laura Bowman (05:23):
betraying but let's be honest about how hard
it is for people to grapple withtheir own shame around like they
have to make someone else be thebad guy in order to feel okay
about making decisions likethat. So like, right? You don't
have to, but that's what makespeople change the way, like,
people drive away from the sceneof an accident, you shouldn't do
(05:44):
that do but for some reason,people do it all the time. It's
so
Andrea Baker (05:48):
I think that too.
I mean, I, you know, hindsightnow, and I so, I, I've been
divorced nine years, so it'sbeen a minute. I think the the
scar tissue, you know, has,like, got my I've grown around
it, and it's fine, you know. Butat the beginning, I mean, so
eviscerated, like, just slicedopen, raw. And then, you know,
(06:08):
the one of the first people Idated, it was very slow. It was
great. It was so he was it wasvery gentle getting to know. But
then when we got to the physicalaspects. There were, you know,
there was STDs involved. Therewere, like, long term, like,
effects that could happen. And Ithat was like, what, you know, I
made it to 45 now I'm, this iswhat I'm grappling with, like,
(06:33):
what is happening. And ofcourse, that wasn't great for
him, for for that to be myreaction, I'm sure. But I was so
naive at the time, notrecognizing, like one in five
men and one in six women, orwhatever this is. And it's, you
know, it's very common. I mean,I think if I was deeply in love
with someone and knew that thiswas really going somewhere, I
(06:56):
would be 100% fine with riskingthat, yeah,
Colette Fehr (07:02):
because, like, every other person has an STD,
but to be like, if not every
Andrea Baker (07:06):
dating not sure where it's going, and then
risking that, like, I'm gonnahave this souvenir for the rest
of my life, because I tried thisthing, like, not for me, that's
not for me. So
Colette Fehr (07:17):
since your 20s, so you don't even really know
what's out there dating? Howwould you even know what people
have with us or what? Literally,had not thought
Andrea Baker (07:27):
about it. I did go and get myself checked out.
Yeah, and they were even, thatwas the craziest thing. Is they,
they kind of discouraged me. Mydoctor was like, Well, why do
you want to know? I'm like,well, I need to know. Like, I'm
not going to be, I'm not goingto be frivolous with other
people's health, and they'relike, Well, I'm like, what? Like
the fact that they're not evenencouraging people to find out,
(07:48):
because you might not know,
Laura Bowman (07:49):
but so, so interesting. You say that, like,
I had a client who, she dated aguy, and then he ended up being
unfaithful to her, and she wentto her doctor just to do one of
these, like, prevent, like,totally check it up on it, and
it was so good she did, becauseshe had, like, a form of HPV
that was like, stay superaggressive. Had she not done
that 100% had cervical cancer,make sure
Andrea Baker (08:12):
you're, you're healthy and what you're, you
know, offering and sharing. Ifyou have something, you can have
a adult conversation about it,which I have the utmost respect
for that guy, because he told meup front, so Thank God you know,
because, yeah, you know, Ididn't even know to ask those
questions at that point in mylife. And then,
Colette Fehr (08:31):
right? And you're still recovering from this
enormous betrayal, and thenafter the betrayal, it's also
this person, the affair partner,is now in your life so and was
immediately in your life,immediately, oh my gosh. Okay,
so just because we're on thisand it's so do you have any
(08:51):
words of wisdom for recoveringfrom right infidelity?
Andrea Baker (08:55):
I got really, really good at tennis because I
think it's so good to hitsomething as hard as you can.
And that's appropriate. That'slike, it's I my joke is I play
tennis so I don't run peopleover with my car, and I'm really
good at it, like releasinganger, release I don't know
that's how I manage that kind offeeling, because I don't want it
to come out in my nasty words orhold it in and get some illness
(09:18):
or get some lump in my wherever,because I do. That's my belief.
Like, those are those things youhave to expel them. I have
since, like, gone through allthe phases, the grief, stages of
grief, and all that you have togo through them. You can't deny
them, and you do. I also givemyself huge grace when the
energy fails me to stay strongand I go and I lay in my bed
(09:43):
and, you know, eat ice cream orwhatever, I do not beat myself
up for that. Not once have Ilike, I'm just like, Yep, this
is my body telling me it's whatit needs right now. And I
respect it and I trust it, and Ialso I'm very good and aware of
speaking well to myself, like Ibelieve myself. Hear me like,
when a cold is coming, I'm like,You got this, you get them white
(10:05):
blood cells. You can do it. I'mhere for you. Reinforcing your
own bio, you know, verse,whatever the words are, is just
reinforcing that positive andsurrounding your people with
your people, like I was socareful of the people that were.
I mean, I remember this onecouple being like, finding out
(10:28):
what had happened, and we hadbeen friends as a couple, and
they were continuing to befriends with him, which I didn't
know at the time when we werehaving this conversation. But
the way that she was like, Yeah,you know it happens like, oh
well, just exercising anyonelike, remove. Don't keep looking
at the pictures. Like, block anddelete. Don't it's, it's so
(10:52):
painful to have a picture youlook on your social media and
you've got their fabulousvacation photo and your face
that will ruin your freakingweek. Like, don't do that to
yourself. Delete, block, yeah,and then and find the people
that make you laugh and make youfeel good about yourself and and
like and comment and follow themand tell the algorithm to send
(11:13):
you more of that. I mean, itmight have been Laura. Someone
was like, anger is healthy ifyou use it properly. You know,
like, I never lived out any ofmy revenge fantasies, like I
never did any of the things, butthe thoughts were like, it's
okay to have those thoughts.
It's okay to imagine a fiery carcrash. It's okay. I didn't make
it happen, but it was okay toimagine that that like would
(11:34):
happen, and I'm not a bad personfor that. So giving yourself a
ton of grace. It's hard. It'sthere's no there's no quick fix,
there's no pill, there's nothere's no drink. It's
Colette Fehr (11:48):
a long road, it really is, and there's no way to
short circuit it. So then, asyou go into dating, is this also
part of it? I mean, I know itwas for me, having been cheated
on in the past as well, formany, many, many years, in some
of the most painful wayspossible, that it's just human,
it's going to shake your trustwell,
Andrea Baker (12:09):
like, then the next person that I really
thought, Oh, wow. Like, this iswhy I got divorced. I'm going to
be with this guy. Like, I'm soexcited, and I was so clingy,
like, I glommed onto him, like avirus. I mean, we're talking
about, I should, I need tochange the metaphor. But, like,
I just, I was like, Call me.
Call me when you get in theplane, call me when you land,
(12:31):
you know. Like, and I think itwas fun for a minute, but then
it was like, Whoa, you know. Andunder, like, I look back now and
I cringe at, you know, how I wasthen, so needy, yeah, but I was
so, yeah, I was, I was notstable. I was like, a, you know,
a wiggle, weeble wobble, right?
Like you you wobble, but youdon't fall down. Like I looked
(12:52):
okay on the outside. People werelike, you're, you know, you're
highly functioning. You seemgreat. But I was not on the
inside. I was a weeble wobble. Iwas like, trying to find solid
ground and I and looking for itin someone else is never the
answer, right you. We all knowthat,
Laura Bowman (13:06):
if you were to go back to that woman, would you
have, like, said you need, like,a timeout for a while? Like,
dating is not where to be rightnow. Or did you need all those
experiences to kind of show youthat stuff? I'm
Andrea Baker (13:20):
a big believer in, like, the harder thing you do,
the greater the reward. So Ifeel like it was, would have
been easier to hole up, youknow, it's, it's today. It's
like, it's always easier for meto say no and stay home. I mean,
this is I'm in my office, rightdown the street, you know,
hallway from my bedroom, like Icould never leave the house with
Instacart now, like, but theharder thing is to say yes to
(13:41):
the thing and go and then seewhat happens. And you either,
you know, in tennis, you eitherwin or you learn, right? So in
Dayton, you either, you know,get some or you learn something.
But when an opportunity, like,it was a friend from my past
that came back, he had gonethrough a divorce, or was in
the, you know, end stages of adivorce, so I was super like,
wow. Like, this is allhappening. It's meant to be I
(14:03):
thought I had manifested him,because I remember walking and
being like, I just want to meetsomeone that's that I can trust
from my past, like someone thatI have history with. That's all
I want. And literally, I don'tknow, three days later, he was
like, Hey, you want to meet forcoffee? I was like, Oh, my God,
I'm this. I am the most magicalcreature. Wow, manifested my
next relationship.
Colette Fehr (14:25):
So what did you learn from that relationship?
Andrea Baker (14:28):
I learned that men don't want too much difficulty,
especially like older, verysuccessful men, they prefer like
an easy relationship, which Iget like they're out there
fighting wars. And that was notthe only, you know, my age,
successful man that I havedated, but the one common thread
(14:51):
is they really their life iswhat their life is that they've
built from scratch, that they'resuper proud of, which kudos, but
they're. No sense of, like,what's you? What have you built?
How do we fit? It's more. Thisis where I'm at. And how are you
gonna cut? Fold in? Like you'regonna fold in, because
Colette Fehr (15:11):
that's not a real relationship, and that's not and
easy being easy. This is the ageold thing of, like, good girl,
itis right that that you wantthis perfect doll that has only
plastic parts. Obviously, I'mspeaking
Andrea Baker (15:28):
end up with,
Unknown (15:29):
I don't know they
Colette Fehr (15:32):
got plastic parts, right, right? Okay, okay,
literally and metaphorically,but I think beyond the looks,
it's the idea of like you'rehappy and you're positive and
you smile and you don't rock theboat too much, and you're not
seen as, God forbid, fuckingshutter, a difficult woman. And
(15:52):
really, what a difficult womanmeans is somebody who is
assertive about her own needsand willing to speak the truth
about her feelings, and is notjust going to swallow it when
something this fabulous man,successful man with his
organized life, does to upsetyou. I mean, it just it really
(16:14):
sparks an ember of outrage inme, because this is the
conundrum for women, is that wecan mistakenly think that to be
loved by the partner we want, weneed to fit into their world and
into their box.
Andrea Baker (16:28):
I think it came as like a bit of a shock, but then
also sort of common. It was socommon, it was so normalized
that that also made me go, Well,I that was probably the first
time I opted out. I was like, Ithink I'll just be alone then,
like, if that's how it's goingto be. And then then the younger
men were so easy. I mean,they're so easy, you know? I
(16:52):
mean,
Laura Bowman (16:53):
tell us about the younger men. Like, I'm
fascinated by this. Like, whatwas that? Like? I was like,
Andrea Baker (17:00):
I'm definitely not interested in any sort of who
I'm going to bring home to myfamily kind of person. I'm like,
exploring all the things I nevertried, you know, race, religion,
creed, like age, age, like it. Iwas open to see what might
happen. I mean, I'm veryselective. So it's not like I
was like, every week was adifferent person I would, I was,
(17:20):
like, I was with someone formonths. I mean, one was, like, a
year and a half, this young guywho, you know, if I had been the
man, I would have been dragginghim to all the parties to show
off, because he was gorgeous,like, model type, significant
age difference, yeah, but a fulladult, he was a full adult, but,
yeah, you know, and he had ajob, he traveled, he was a he, I
(17:43):
don't know, I'm not going to saymore about it, because he's a
professional person. But yeah,we had a great there was no, it
was just fun, you know, we thereweren't lots of deep we would
talk about things that weredeep, but it was just fun, but
Colette Fehr (18:02):
it's become such a thing now, and it is nice that
women you know that the cultureis shifting. When you see all
these movies now, there's allthese Netflix shows. There's a
new one right now, but a 60 yearold woman being with a younger
man, there was the Nicole Kidmanone, right, where it's the
daughter's love interest, butthen she's the one who will them
(18:24):
more. And at that time, that wasconsidered horribly, yeah,
whatever,
Andrea Baker (18:32):
because I, I do think it has its place. And like
men do, and men do it all thetime, it's so common for the new
divorce, a divorce guy to be atthe party with the young thing,
and the guys are like, but forsome reason it seems more
biological. So cool way to go.
Where if I did it, no one wouldhave high fived me. Women,
Laura Bowman (18:53):
very often are so like, you gotta tell me
everything about your exrelationships, every marriage
you've been in, why you got outof them. Who are you? Now, can I
trust you? I mean, do you findthat you when you, especially as
you start to feel close tosomeone that that comes up a lot
of like, Can I really trust thishuman,
Andrea Baker (19:14):
you know, yeah, like, the trauma response, the
triggering, all those things areabsolutely real, and I think,
you know, way more intense inthe early years than now, like
it's all sort of more dullednow, but, I mean, I definitely
had to find my boundaries, whichis like, I'm gonna do a
(19:35):
background check on you. That'sit. Like, there's no, I'm not
gonna negotiate that with you,sir, I always say I have an
onboarding process. So myonboarding process is the text,
okay, like it's initially atext. Do you say it like that?
Again, I'm still single, sodon't do what I do.
Colette Fehr (19:53):
But what's your onboarding process? I love this
idea. How
Andrea Baker (19:56):
many grammatical errors are we making, and do
they? Know? There, there, there.
Your your big if they say, youknow, thank thank you, or you're
welcome, you know, if that, ifyou can't do your welcome, I'm
probably, we're probably notgonna,
Colette Fehr (20:14):
how much effort will you make?
Andrea Baker (20:16):
I mean, so that's easy. That's those are easy to
just like swipe what's the, youknow, when you don't like them
left, like, right, swipe left,if you like your we're done
here. So then, but if all thatgoes well, then we're gonna have
a phone interview. And, like, Iremember calling one guy with,
you know, it was a, it was aspecific time we're gonna have a
call. And I called, and youcould tell he was, like, laying
(20:38):
down, you know, like napping.
And he's just very like, yeah.
And I think within 30 seconds or15 seconds, I was like, You know
what? This isn't gonna work out.
You know, bye, bye. And I justlike, hung up. Because why?
Amanda was five more minuteswith just to be polite to
someone who clearly is not thatinto what's happening here,
(20:58):
which is fine. Like, maybe hewould have worked all night,
and, like, maybe I really missedmy chance on that one. But these
apps and these strangers, likethey don't there's no value till
there's value, right? And youhave to be protecting yourself
until you feel safe enough toopen up to be vulnerable. And
it's not, it's self preservationfirst, because no one else is
(21:21):
coming. I mean, that's, I mean,when I had a chicken coop and
the snake was in the chickencoop, and I was like, Oh, my
God, oh, no one's coming. It's,I have to deal with the snake
and the chicken no one's coming.
There's no one to screen, helpto and that's, I mean, so I'm
gonna look out for me all theway until someone is proven,
(21:45):
entity, proven over again,entity that is safe, secure and
understanding of your bear.
You're scared to be embarrassed.
I'm scared to die. That's it.
Like you have to adjustyourself. I'm not adjusting my
fear of death because it I can'tI will die because then I'll be
down.
Colette Fehr (22:05):
And that's just a certain level of safety and
practicality that is the realityfor women. We really have to
look out for ourselves. And thenthere's also the second layer
you're pointing to, which is,you know, identifying certain
little, tiny behaviors that tellyou, you know, this is early,
right? And it reminds me, as Ilisten to you, I got to this
(22:29):
place because I was like an Uberdater for a while. Like, I mean,
I, you know, I approach thingsusually with Augusto, so if I'm
doing it, I'm all in. And Ialmost became like a
professional dater for a while.
One day I went, Wow, four datesin one day,
Andrea Baker (22:45):
I'm exhausted.
That was my Matthew about it. Ohmy gosh, right. It was
literally, like, if you have youknow how to do the grammar, you
can have a reasonableconversation lets me and you're
not scared to tell me your lastname, or maybe, I mean, you
don't show your drivers, like,your full name, and like, do
you? Are you? Are you residentof the state, and maybe how old
(23:06):
you are? Because then I candefinitely get, yeah, you know,
any criminal records. But like,if they're willing to do all
that, then, yeah, I want to meetyou before we start talking. And
if they're like, Oh, I can'tmeet for two weeks, I'm like,
that's fine, let me know, andwe'll set up a time in two
weeks. But don't text me andtalk to me between that, because
I'm not interested. Don't useall my time. Yes, they wanted to
(23:28):
do that whole game withoutmeeting, and I that was a
boundary, like so I have, youknow that was about, no, I'm not
doing that
Colette Fehr (23:39):
exactly. And you know what? A lot of people like
that because they want to feelpsychologically like there are
people out there and they haveirons in the fire, but they
don't actually want to divest ofthemselves and put any energy in
a real, authentic way into you.
And so it's a total waste oftime. Save it. Save it. Save
Andrea Baker (23:56):
it till it means something to me.
Laura Bowman (23:58):
I would be so bad at all of this. I mean, you guys
know me, like, I've been marriedfor 24 years and like I every
guy I ever dated, even myhusband, falls into this
category. Like was a really goodfriend first, like, you have to
be my friend. I have no interestin being sexually sized up. It's
(24:20):
by some middle aged dude who,yeah, I can't handle that. My
nervous system can't handlethat, and I know it is
successful.
Andrea Baker (24:28):
I mean, like Colette, how did you meet your
husband? Did you meet him on oneof those 15 minute
Colette Fehr (24:32):
dates? No, I met him organically in a restaurant.
But I met him because, and thisis my and I'm not going to tell
the whole long, boring story,because I've already probably
told already probably told it onthe podcast, but what I love
about you either lose or youeither win or you learn. I had
the most heartbreakingrelationship of my life was the
(24:55):
guy I dated after my divorce. Itabsolutely. It was the most
intense connection I ever had,and my heart was broken in a way
that it took me over a year andI did every embarrassing,
cliched thing, like not beingable to let go, sobbing
uncontrollably in public, chainsmoking cigarettes, calling him
(25:16):
when I shouldn't be calling,like all the all the
embarrassing thing, like I wasjust absolutely ripped to shreds
emotionally by the breakup. AndI remember at points thinking,
there is nothing good that willcome of this. This is just too
much pain to ever have ajustifiable reason. And of
course, eventually I healed andI got past it, and I was like,
(25:39):
holy shit. Talk about having tohave compassion for your younger
self. I had to give myself a lotof grace that, you know, until I
got divorced, I was with the guyI met at a at a like dark wasted
bar in college when I was 18. SoI had no real world experience
whatsoever with dating. I hadn'tgiven my heart to anybody as an
(26:01):
adult, ever other than my exhusband, and that really formed
as as children. So the point ofthis is that I met my husband
ironically because of thatrelationship, because he had she
that other guy had cheated on mewith a woman who went to a
certain school, and I walked bymy husband and his friends at a
table watching a game of thatschool, and I said something out
(26:26):
loud disparaging about theschool that my husband went to
the same school. And so when Icame and I was a little tipsy,
and, you know, I say way morethan I should. And so when I
came back out, my husband hadheard my voice, and he was like,
God, that's some other bitchyNew Yorker, you know, bashing my
rural school. And I came out,and he, like, pointed at the
(26:46):
little logo on his shirt andgave me a nasty look. And I went
over to my friends and said,Wow, that is a group of Grumpy
Old Men who seriously need toget laid. And I thought, because
he's 10 years older than I was,and we ended up, the night went
on, we ended up talking becausewe were the only people in the
restaurant. And I explained tohim that my reaction was a
(27:09):
result of being cheated on. Andso the irony, you know, so many
years later, this was five yearsafter that relationship ended,
and had I never dated that otherguy who broke my heart, I would
have never met my husband. So ithad a really beautiful outcome.
And I do think even these badexperiences are all grist for
(27:31):
the mill, and like, prepare usfor the best relationship with
ourselves and to meet a goodpartner well. And
Andrea Baker (27:38):
honestly, I was telling Laura I listened to the
guys, you know, your two partguy version. And I just felt
like, wow, their goal ismarriage. Their goal is, is
marriage, right? And, and Idon't want to get married again.
Like, I'm not gonna have kids.
Obviously, the oven is closed. Idon't I'm not interested in in
getting legally like I I'mcontent with my financial
(28:03):
situation. I don't want to giveor take from anyone like I would
like to meet an equal and have aequal partnership that has
nothing to do with entanglingeach other's assets or whatever
I'm thinking.
Laura Bowman (28:22):
Of our listeners who maybe they're single for the
first time, or maybe they'vebeen single for a long time.
What's our best advice?
Andrea Baker (28:31):
I did the divorce tour. I said I should make T
shirts I have bag will travel.
And I went every time, becausethe hardest part when your kids
are still live with you is I hadto go, and I've listened to your
empty nest one, and I've sharedit a bunch, because I had to do
that with eight and 10 year oldkids gone for a week at a time.
(28:52):
It is the most unnatural,uncomfortable thing to have
happen and, and, and it's justdoesn't feel like, who am I?
What is my value in this worldif I'm not taking care of my own
children like I don't, Icouldn't see straight. It was so
hard. And so being alone in myhouse was not good for my mental
(29:15):
health at that point. And I justwent and visited all my friends
from college, anyone that wasgoing anywhere or would want me
around third wheeled, it allover the world. Literally did
trips that I would have neverdone. Married, did things that I
would have never done if I wasmarried with kids like I had
(29:36):
this freedom that I decided toinvest in and and find pleasure
for myself, because thealternative was just misery,
misery. And I refused. I refusedto have that be like Pull Me
Under, because it would have, Ithink, if I hadn't had my
divorce tour 2015 which I shouldhave made t shirt. Words,
Colette Fehr (30:00):
that's great advice, and I want to echo that,
that live your best life, right?
Really, go and find what fillsyou up, and don't focus all your
energy on meeting someone,either to just have connection
or to like, meet the needs thatyou can find in other
relationships and experiencesand within yourself, be busy
(30:21):
living your great life, but Iwant to add to that, and at the
same time, be open. And I dothink, because I have many
friends and I've had manyclients who can get stuck in the
well, I'm not ready to date, andthen that becomes life. And
people, when we're hurt, andwe've all been hurt. Most people
don't get to our age, and theyhaven't ever been abandoned or
(30:45):
rejected by someone part of thehuman experience. Don't close
yourself off because somethinghappened to you, and I know
that's easier said than done,but I think that's an active
process. You can be in aconversation with yourself about
every day, go on dates, putyourself out there, risk another
disappointment, and also liveyour best life. I think
Andrea Baker (31:09):
a lot of people get into competition with their
ex. So their ex is now, youknow, getting married, you know,
engaged, getting married andliving with that person,
whatever it is. And you think,Oh, my God, I'm, you know, I'm
getting I've gotten left behind.
I totally got left behind inthat. And I could have been,
like, just glommed on to someoneor, you know, and I just
thought, no, like, I found agreat therapist. I found someone
(31:32):
to make me recognize, like, whatI my values are, what like folk
don't like I said, Turn off allthose social medias. Remove
yourself from the friends thatare gonna like. Some people love
to show up and give me the fillme in on what's going on over
there.
Colette Fehr (31:52):
Oh, everyone wanted to do that with me, and
everyone wanted to bring it up.
People still bring it up. I'vebeen divorced for 20 years. I'm
like, I don't know what my exhusband and his wife do with
their life, and I don't care. Imean, part
Andrea Baker (32:03):
like, it's hard to when those kids evolve. So like,
I get, like, I do want to knowto us to an extent now they're
old enough that I have therelationship with them directly.
So I don't, I'm not questioning,right, me too, that stuff
anymore, but I get theinclination I don't think anyone
was doing it maliciously. Ithink they're thinking, you
(32:24):
know, they're giving me intelthat might be helpful in some
way, but if it's not helpful,you should yeah, no, thank you.
No, thank you and not Yeah.
Surround yourself with yourtribe, find your people, do what
you love and and be your bestself and and keep showing up in
the same way, like be the sameperson. So when, when the new
(32:47):
mom or whatever is buying theiraffection, and they're and
they're saying things you know,because hopefully you're mature,
and you edify each other asparents and as as humans to
their your children, because thebest advice I got from my
lifelong friend, she had me, shehad me talking about my dad,
who's he just passed last year,but just the greatest man on the
(33:10):
planet, and that's and she hadme talking about him for 20
minutes, and she said, Yeah,that's so amazing. You need to
do that for your children, like,give your children that it was
the best advice, because all Iwanted to do was be like, Oh
yeah, careful. He's a lying,cheating son of a bitch, and
she's so awful. Don't trust aword they say. But I never let
(33:32):
myself do that, because they arehalf him. So if I'm talking ill
of him, I'm speaking ill ofthem. And that is not okay,
Colette Fehr (33:45):
right? It only damages the children. Give your
kids the
Andrea Baker (33:49):
opportunity to love their parent and have,
like, great experiences withtheir parent and be happy for
them for doing it like I wouldsay, like you're so lucky you
have, you know, three people nowthat love you, and you know, I
don't even like to shop. You'reso lucky. She loves to shop and
wants to, you know, she, youknow, is giving you gifts you
love, that that's how great.
Meanwhile, you know, I'm in theother room going, you mother
(34:10):
fucking bitch, like,
Unknown (34:12):
stop by my
Andrea Baker (34:13):
kitchen. But I didn't ever do that. I just did
it in the shower and hit thetennis ball super fucking hard,
and
Colette Fehr (34:20):
I made a choice to really just detach from the
whole thing that my happinesswasn't tied to them. I had
divorced parents, and I knew theimportance, even before I became
a therapist, of speaking highlyof your parent, and I knew how
it felt when I heard my parentssay things about each other at
(34:42):
times of emotion, and I wasdetermined to rise above all of
that and to just realize that,you know, their life is their
life, and my life is my life,and I'm going to focus on me,
and what they do or don't do isjust going to have no impact on
me, because. It's not, first ofall, it's out of my control, and
second of all, it's my life tofill with what I want to fill it
(35:05):
with. It takes being reallyintentional about it. But I did
not want to be that person,because I've had these clients,
and I've seen it in my personallife, who, 20 years later,
they're still bitter and angryabout the situation, and that is
a choice to not move on. Oh, youcan get stuck in anger and
resentment and grief and woe isme and that at that point, you
(35:30):
can't control who betrays you,but you can control how long you
and I think
Andrea Baker (35:34):
generationally, like my, my aunt, her husband
left her, and, yeah, she's beenalone 30 years, still angry at
him, you know, and you justthink I so I had, I saw what
that could be, and I have nointerest in living my life like
that. Burn in daylight. I'm alover like I want to love and
(35:54):
have joy and make people laugh,and I I'm not. That's not for
me, and there's so much, so manythings outside of their
personal, sexual, intimaterelationship, that you can enjoy
and focus your energy. I mean,I'm 54 I just got my 200 hour
yoga teacher training like, youknow, like, just keep growing.
(36:18):
Andrea, nothing new to learn.
There's something new to investyour time and energy on. I mean,
podcasting, like, I, you know,I'm going to be a Podcast
Producer, that's what I'm into.
Like, I love it. It's all new.
It's so fun for me. I mean, Iknow it's not new, but it's new
for me. Find a new passion, Findit. Find something that draws
you in positively. And yeah,these men, they can't be alone
(36:40):
for five minutes. Hopefullyyou'll have me on here in five
years, and I'll be like, here heis. Like, he's amazing, but if
Yeah, I'm not, I literally don'tsee it anymore. Like, I don't
see it. So it's okay. Would itbe great to have an equal
partner that actually we foldedinto each other, versus having
to fold into someone else's lifelike that would be amazing,
Laura Bowman (37:06):
and it could be love, but it could just be a
really great quality. Nothingbetter than being
Andrea Baker (37:11):
like in Spain and going I would have never done
this if I was married, and hereI am on this adventure in Spain
like that's a benefit. Plus, Ihave no in laws, no in laws,
winning. And I
Colette Fehr (37:24):
think, like, just as a final takeaway before we
wrap up, is really that it canbe great either way, right?
Don't compromise yourself. Beopen, live your best life, and
like you're gonna find a lifethat fulfills you, and it
doesn't have to be with apartner, and it doesn't have to
be without a partner. Thereisn't one way to do
Laura Bowman (37:43):
it. Grow together.
Yeah, develop yourself. Yeah.
Colette Fehr (37:48):
So that is the message. And you were tell us
before we sign off, how tell ouraudience how they can find you
your new podcast. Oh, well,
Andrea Baker (37:57):
I so tales to tell, spelled like a dog tail,
because it's with the DR Jackie,who's a local vet. It's really a
podcast for pet owners, for petprofessionals, for anyone that's
involved and loves animals. Andit's so informative and fun, and
I love it. So yeah, tales totell with Jackie Burt, and then,
(38:19):
yeah, I'm Andrea e Baker oneverything I think Andrea e
Baker on like, tick tock, I havea private Instagram. I I got
some, I had some wacky Instagramso tick tock. I just make silly,
funny videos, like that one Iwas telling you about Laura.
Yeah, she's
Laura Bowman (38:33):
very funny. You
Colette Fehr (38:35):
guys can connect with Andrea there. Check out her
podcast. It sounds wonderful.
Animals are even better thanpeople, sometimes. And thank you
so much for being on and thankyou everyone for listening. We
will be back soon, and hope yougot lots of great insights from
our couch.
Laura Bowman (38:54):
Bye, guys, bye, bye.
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