February 25, 2025 • 46 mins
Alex and Tim are on a roll, uncovering the DNA of comedy’s greatest moments. This week, they’re joined by the brilliant writer and performer Matt Lucas! They’ll dive into his creative process, how he and David Walliams collaborate, and what it takes to craft a hit show.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to our podcast. It's funny because it's true. This is Alex McQueen, this is
(00:06):
Timothy Clyde and we're going to try to unpick what it is that makes stuff funny. What's
the DNA of comedy? The yolk. What's at the heart of the egg? Yeah. So we've got a
load of interesting guests we're going to meet. Directors, producers, writers, editors,
performers, stand-ups, halls. But today we've got a very, very fine guest who's famous in
(00:27):
front of the camera as well as behind it. The very, very famous and wonderful Matthew
Richard Lucas. Thank you very much. Is it Lucas or is it Matthew, is it Richard Lucas?
The full name. What's the middle? Yeah Matthew Richard Lucas. Nice. Willem has started. How
the hell do we know each other? We did Wind in the Willows. We did Wind in the Willows.
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We just met on set. We met on set in Wind in the Willows and we were in Bucharest and
I was playing Mr. Toad so I'd been there for a while. Because I played the court clar.
Yeah and I was just. They sentenced you to prison. You sentenced me to prison but I was
just struck by how brilliant you were and I just thought, yeah. And I just thought,
oh this guy's, this guy's good. This guy's. Well you were on it because you had some chunky
(01:14):
dialogue. I did. And you were on it. You knew it all. That's very good. And you were, yeah.
And I was just like. Yeah whereas me, I'd just be like, what line do I do? Can we, what?
I was doing scatterbrain. What was the first thing that ever made you laugh? Can you recall
that? Yeah I wrote a joke when I was three and a half. Which I used to tell everybody.
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And it has all the rhythms of a joke without the. Punctual? Yeah without the rewards. Okay.
Which is why did the car go into the water? Why did the car drive into the water? Because
it wanted to get itself wet. And I wrote that when I was three and a half. I remember just,
I would tell it to everyone. I would roar with laughter. Can I just ask, why is that
(02:02):
funny? Well it's not. There's no joke. I'm not missing something. You know a joke has
like a punch line. There's a hidden. Yeah. Second. There's no second. That's just. It's
an explanation. It missed the back bit. Yeah it's the rhythms of the joke. But then you
see it was a sort of my version of why did the chicken cross the road to get to the other
side. Yes. Three and a half you wrote your first. Yeah yeah yeah. Good joke that. Great.
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Good joke. And then my first proper joke that I wrote. Right. When you just sort of, it's
an actual sort of. Joke joke. Yeah I think probably was, well actually there's two that
I can remember. So I lost my hair when I was six. To alopecia. And my hair fell out. And.
It happened in an instant. It happened over just a few weeks. Oh really. It's dramatic
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in its effect. Yeah yeah yeah. And then it grew back. It started to grow back and then
fell out again a year later. So and people, you know and suddenly it's sort of in an age
before empathy. An age where children and adults were both kind of cruel and not shy
of asking questions, pointing, laughing, all that kind of stuff. So I had to develop a
(03:10):
sort of thick skin. And there was a popular figure called Duncan Goodhue who you'll both
remember was an Olympic swimmer who also had alopecia. And it was seen as a great bonus
for him because it. Well it was. The theory is that he could get, yeah it was more aerodynamic
(03:32):
through the water. So. But he often spoke on television and radio. People asked him
how did you lose your hair? How did you lose your hair? And he used to say, well I was
climbing and I fell out of a tree. And I think it was the shock. And I used to say, well
people used to say, you know Duncan Goodhue fell out of a tree. Said the shock. Made his
(04:00):
hair fall out. Well it was my fucking head he landed on. Got it. And the shock made my
hair fall. So I used to say that when I was about 10 or 11. I remember thinking that's
quite funny. Yeah. But people didn't really laugh. But people were just like, adults would
laugh. Kids wouldn't really get it. They'd sort of take it literally. But the first joke
I remember sort of just sort of writing, coming up with, was a joke that other people have
(04:23):
done. Because I think it's one of those jokes that I can't be the only person who's written
this joke. But I did write it. Which was when someone talks about astrology, having a conversation
and they say, you know, star signs. I always say, I don't really believe in star signs.
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But that's me, typical Pisces. So I remember writing that when I was about 14. And we'd
been quite happy with that. I think Joe Brand has told the sort of sayings that just independently
came up with it. We didn't see each other do the joke. We're just one of those things.
But who famous made you? When you were growing up, you were already the centre of comedy.
(05:07):
Who were you inspired by? I was definitely Laurel and Hardy. Really? Oh yeah. They're
like your friends. But there is something eerie about those films as well. There is
a real jeopardy about them. People get very angry with them. Oliver gets angry with, you
know, Stan. Things get really damaged. There's floods. They're violent. They are violent.
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And there's something, they're safe. But there's always a sense of danger about those films.
You know, if Stanley says the wrong thing, his wife will clobber him or punish him. Oliver
Hardy can, you know, will box Stan's ears if something goes wrong. It's quite punchy
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and judy. Yeah, it is quite. They'll throw a brick at someone's head or something like
that. But they're still my favourites. So Laurel and Hardy, would you describe that
as one of your key inspirations? Definitely. And Chaplin. I read his autobiography. I got
his autobiography out of the school library, which is called weirdly My Autobiography,
(06:17):
which is a weird title because you think, well, who else's autobiography could it be?
His autobiography is by definition the writers. But anyway, you know, and I read both parts
of that and I became a real Chaplin aficionado, absolute Chaplin geek. There's a brilliant
surrealism that's often overlooked in things like the gold rush when he's doing the little
(06:43):
routine with the bread rolls. And I think there's a sense that Laurel and Hardy, and
I don't mean this in a bad way, was slightly churning it out. They weren't really seen
as artists, Laurel and Hardy. They were just sort of funny.
Turns. Yeah, they were turns. It's almost like you
would watch their films like you'd watch a sitcom every week on TV. You'd be watching
it like that. Duty free or Tony.
(07:05):
Yeah, duty free or you must be the husband with Annette Newman. But Chaplin was sort
of, I think, an artist. Now, actually, Laurel and Hardy probably makes me laugh more than
Chaplin. And there's a more kishness to Chaplin now that hasn't a sentimentality that hasn't
dated very well. But I love those things. But I also loved Morkham and Wise and the Two
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Ronnies and I used to watch those shows. There's a warmth about Morkham and Wise. I think the
Two Ronnies were less warm and more clever. Yeah. But one of the, you know, I do remember
coming back from Cub Camp and being picked up and going straight to my grandmother's
house. And as I walked in, I said, did you remember to video the Two Ronnies? Because
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it was a Sunday and it would have been on the night before. And I said that before I
said hello to grandma. I've been in a lot of trouble. So, a lot of trouble.
So Morkham and Wise. Yes. What would you...
Everyone loves them. Yeah. But what do you think... If you... It's
probably very difficult to answer. But what would you say is there? What's their unique
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secret? You talk about the warmth there. They are warmth. Which others maybe don't have
so much. What do you think is going on there that makes us want to not stop watching you?
Well, I think they feel like... I mean, they reinvent themselves. They have motifs running
through, you know, like Ernie being the aspiring writer, being the short one, being more of
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a Lothario, you know, maybe being mean. Although they have various different sort of running
gags. But they used to have a star guest in each show or a couple. And they'd be laughing
with the celebrity, but they'd encourage the celebrity to sort of take the mick out of
(08:58):
themselves. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Which was really a good thing. And the more serious the guest, the better.
It's like a very prominent conductor or a very...
Yeah, Andre President or Glenda Jackson. People like that. Yeah. There's also this sense of
routine about it, which is, you know, they owned Christmas. That's the Christmas show
(09:20):
is Morecombe and Wise. And even... I mean, I was nine, I think, when Eric Morecombe died,
eight or nine. I remember when he died. But they carried on just repeating every Christmas,
regardless. There wasn't a break. They just...
I don't think it's probably the best thing on TV.
TV, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So good.
I think they're very warm. Eric Morecombe's like the funny uncle at A Family Do, isn't
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he? He's just got the tricks. He'll be able to wiggle his...
Well, he's naughty for 50, or however he wants.
Yeah, he's naughty, but he's actually never lecherous. I mean, is that the age of...
The carry on movies is the same era, and I love the carry ons. But there's nothing sexual
about Morecombe and Wise, is there? No.
And I used to love that they shared the bed together, though. It was just really sweet.
(10:13):
They were like brothers, you know. Yeah.
They're very charming and... It's innocent. It was beautifully in the six.
Innocent. Also playing a lot with that thing that in the 80s, and 70s and 80s was so prevalent,
in comedy double acts, that you don't really see anymore. It's not really a thing anymore,
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but growing up, which is... You'd have Ernie in the foreground trying to, quote, do something
serious and then Eric in the background ruining it.
Yeah. And Cannon and Ball always did that thing,
didn't they? Well, at least...
Little and Large did that thing, and it's the thing, isn't it?
To a degree, but they wrote some... To Ronnies. To a little degree.
To Ronnies to a degree, but I don't think that to Ronnies did that.
(10:59):
Consistently. No.
I think Smith and Jones did a little bit of it, but it's the idea of the more serious
member of the act. Being thought...
Coming on. Yes, exactly. And saying, good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'm going to
now be singing I Who Have Nothing. I, I who have nothing. And then somebody walking on
just in underpants, they're like, I've almost got nothing as well. It's that kind of...
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I've just made that up, but it's that sort of thing you would have seen, wouldn't you?
You'd see Eric Morecambe walking on in a sort of overcoat, sweeping up in the background
while Ernie was trying to...
Utterly undermining and thwarting. Yeah, yeah. And Cannon and Ball did all of
that as well in Little and Large and...
So if they're your influences or they had an impact...
(11:43):
Well, there's the big influence I haven't mentioned.
Why? Well, let's do that.
Yeah.
It was Vic and Bob.
Right.
Yeah, yeah. And they were, if I had to pick one... I mean, I loved Harry Enfield as well.
I was a huge Harry Enfield fan, spitting image. Smith and Jones. I really devoured comedy.
I liked Helen Pace as well.
Well, you loved Helen Pace.
(12:03):
Yeah, they don't get a lot of credit, but they did some brilliant comedy songs. They
were great. They were great. But I think Reeves and Mortimer were just like aliens. They're
amazing. And I think it must have been like, if I'd been 20 years younger and discovered
The Mighty Boosh, it would have been the same thing. Which was with Reeves and Mortimer,
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you're in a gang.
Yeah.
If you watch their thing, you're either in the gang or out the gang. And it was very
much like that. And just peculiarly British and the heritage of Python and the Goons and
Hoffnan and stuff like that. But...
Who?
Oh, Gerard Hoffnan.
Who, why?
Oh, Gerard Hoffnan. Do you know?
I don't know who they are.
We're in with a treat.
Oh, really?
(12:47):
Gerard Hoffnan is another huge influence.
Gerard Hoffnan was a humorist and a classical musician, really. And an amazing, amazing
cartoonist.
Oh, great.
And he died very young. He was an immigrant from, I think, Germany.
(13:07):
He was a young 30?
Yes, in his thirties.
Oh, okay.
And was operating in the forties and fifties and then gone. So sad. And anybody who's watching
this, try and find Gerard Hoffnan conversations that he had. Gerard Hoffnan in conversation,
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these improvised...
Oh, great.
You will love that.
I don't know.
He had these two most diverse dialogues with an American guy. And Hoffnan is this old sort
of chap like that. And the weird thing is I had this character called Sir Bernard Jung.
And I'd thought of Sir Bernard before I'd heard of Hoffnan. And I was performing Sir
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Bernard before I encountered Hoffnan. But when I encountered Hoffnan, I was like, oh,
this is the same thing, but a lot better.
So Hoffnan, Vic and Bob, they were so surreal and unapologetic and exotic and strange.
So yeah, I loved all of that stuff.
Well, we're going to move on shortly to the pros and et cetera. But before we do that,
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that segues, the Vic and Bob thing is quite a useful segue into how did you... What was
your first entree...
I'll have a biscuit.
Yeah, have a biscuit time. What was your first entree...
I can see you.
Into comedy. How did you get into it? What was your lucky moment or break or...
Well, like a school play or actually sort of doing it professionally.
I would say professionally. Yeah. How did you get into it professionally?
(14:36):
I haven't got a saucer or a plate. I'm going to...
You put it on there. That'll do it fine.
I started... I saw an advert in a magazine to go on a standup comedy course. I wanted
to do standup comedy in my year off. I'd been in the National Youth Theatre where I'd met
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David Williams, who people don't really know he is anymore, but he was a comic writer and
actor of this sort of early noughties.
Oh, the tall one in Little Britain is not very funny.
Yeah, yeah.
The other guy. He gave it up.
He is a guy, but he had a moment. And I was in the National Youth Theatre where I met
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him. We were introduced to each other. He's three years older than me and he was already
in a play. I was on the introductory sort of...
Course.
The course, yeah. It was in the halls of residence.
Tuffnell Park.
Yeah, in Huddleston Road in Tuffnell Park, University Halls of Residence, which the National
Youth Theatre used during the summer holidays to base their actors who were on courses or
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actually in the plays. Because with the National Youth Theatre, you'd have to be on a course
in your first year that was two or three weeks and then you'd be eligible to audition for
part in a play. David was in a play called Surrender Dorothy in the summer of 1990 that
I think went to the Edinburgh Festival. But they were rehearsing in London. They may have
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had a short run in London as well, I'm not sure, but they were doing some rehearsals
in London. And I was on the junior course because I was 16. So I was one of the youngest
members. And I used to do an impression, which I won't do, of Jimmy Savile.
Okay.
And David...
I was about to make it, but no.
(16:28):
Yeah, that's not...
That's not doing it.
And David did a much better impression of Frankie Howard. Of course, he ended up playing
Frankie Howard in a drama.
Oh, did he?
In BBC Four, yeah. And I used to do my impression, people just used to call me Jimmy. People
thought that was my name and they thought his name was Frankie, they just called him
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Frankie.
Okay, so first of all, you were known as Jimmy and Frankie.
And people kept telling me, have you met the guy who does Frankie Howard? Have you met
the guy? He's so funny. So I just heard about him. And then...
That's great.
In the bar at the halls of residence where the snooker table was.
Yes.
In the jukebox that used to play Ruby Tuesday by the Rolling Stones. In that room, I remember
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by the snooker table, we were introduced to each other.
Who by? Who introduced you?
It was a guy actually called Jimmy, who was a Geordie, who was there on one of the courses.
He had no idea what he was doing.
And he...
That's extraordinary.
That's my memory of it. He kept saying, you're going to meet Frankie, you're so funny. Like
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that.
And when you did meet him, did you say...
I just thought, oh my God. Well, he towered over me. Because I'm five foot six and a half,
he's six foot three. So he towered over me. And of course, when you're 16 and someone's
19...
It's a massive difference.
...there might as well be 50 years old. And he had a confidence and an authority. And
yeah, I just thought he was... The impression was amazing. And every time I saw him, I'd
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go, go on, do it, do it, do it. And he'd be very annoyed that I was sort of making him
do it. But then he'd...
Kind of like it.
Kind of like it. But in the end, sometimes he'd go, no. And other times he'd go, all
right.
Well, I think we should put that down as your... That's the moment where your professional
career really began. So we can now... I think we can... Yeah, we can probably meet...
(18:16):
Well, so the next year, the next summer, when I was 17, in the summer of 1991, the National
Youth Theatre did a production of The Tempest. And David was in it, as Stefano or Trinca La,
I can't remember which one. And he was hilarious. And I was bringing props on and off stage.
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But it was really weird. It was done in a Japanese style. So we were called Koken. So
we were covered head to toe in black, with black masks. And the set was sort of... The
props were fluorescent and they had the ultraviolet light. And then we would move the props like
this, and we'd be the sorcerer's apprentice and things like that. So I would watch David
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in rehearsals every day. And we swapped addresses at the end. And we stayed in touch. And I
used to go and watch him do stand-up comedy. He was in a double act with a guy called Jason
Bradbury, who used to host The Gadget Show on Channel 5 quite recently. And... Sorry.
Yeah, quite recently. And I used to go and watch them. Where? They used to do open spots
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in the London circuit. I used to watch them at the comedy stores. And they'd often bath...
They were sort of Vic and Bob light, basically. But they had some really great lines. But
I quoted some the other day and David was not happy about it because he's very embarrassed.
But I used to think they were really hilarious. And I'd go and watch them and sometimes they'd
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die a death. But I would be in... I'd split my sides. Yeah. I just remember thinking it
was the funniest thing in the world, even though I'd see him sometimes just absolute
tank. Sometimes I'd see them do really well. But Jason didn't really want to be in a double
act that much. So... But I used to... I was really inspired by them. And that was the
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bridge to me, knowing some people that actually performed. Because I used to go to comedy
clubs and watch people. I lived... I used to go to a comedy club called Punchlines, which
was in West Hampstead. And I'd go and see everyone. They're Harry Hill and Alan Davis
and Joe Brand. And this is in like 1991, 1992. And I was 18 years old. And I used to go with
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friends and I'd be first in the queue. And I absolutely love it. Mark Thomas and Kevin
Day and Kevin Elden and see really great comedians. And then I decided to do it myself. So I saw
an advert in a magazine and I went on a stand up comedy course that was run by a comedian
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called Ivor D'Embina. And it was like a night school for about six or eight weeks.
Once a week.
Once a week, Thursday nights in 1992. And I said to my mum, I really want to do... I
want to take a year off before going to university after A levels and do stand up. My mum said,
well, you have to get a job. I mean, I can't... It's just me and my mum. I can't afford
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to just have you living here. So I got a job working in the day at Chelsea Football Club
in the club shop. I'm a big Arsenal fan. But I used to help run youth clubs at the local
synagogue and our family synagogue in Northwest London. And I used to sometimes babysit for
some of those kids that used to come to youth club. And one family, I used to babysit for
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them regularly. And he had the franchise to run the shop at Chelsea Football Club. So
I went to work for him full time. Their surname was Pollard, which of course ended up Vicky
Pollard.
Oh, really? That was great.
Yeah. But they... So I started doing stand up at the age of 18 after Ivor Dembina's comedy
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course.
And that's when Vic and Bob came to see you. And that's when they went, we'll have you.
I've been doing it for open spots for five weeks. I mean, really...
Quite novice.
Really, very novice. I had a... I mean, I don't know what my act was, but I went to
play the white horse in Belsize Park. There was a small comedy club below it called the
(22:21):
VD Clinic, which was short for the Valdunican Clinic. And it was for new act.
Right.
And so I'd done a couple of shows there. And well, I say shows like a sort of 10 minute
team that I'd written as this character, Sir Bernard Chumbly, who ended up in Little Britain.
I remember it. I remember it being at the festival and hearing about it. Who's to heckle
(22:45):
yourself? Shut up! What? Who's it? What?
Oh, you genius, you bastard. How dare you be so good?
Yeah. One of my favourite heckle put downs, which I did later on, which was somebody heckled
me and I went... I was doing... I don't know what I did it, but I just went, look, I'm
really trying my best up here. This is actually extremely hurtful. You know, I'm giving my
(23:09):
best. I'm trying to tell jokes. And you're just sort of shouting at me and think about
what that does to me. And then I just went back into the room. Which is such a weird
thing to do. But I remember being really... Remember, there was that delay and then it
got a big roar of laughter because I'd been heckling myself nonstop and then just suddenly
just did that and then went back into heckling.
(23:31):
And also it's basically no one else can play this game. I can, you can't.
Yeah, exactly. So I was performing at the White Horse and I saw Bob Mortimer in the
bar before the show and I was like...
Bloody hell.
Oh my God, because I was Reeves and Mortimer fanatic. Fanatic. And they kind of influenced
(23:55):
the act I was doing. It was very sub Reeves and Mortimer, what I was doing. And I went
and just very briefly introduced myself.
So you took the initiative to go up with...
Yeah, but just really like, are you... Bob, Bob, are you a veteran of the show tonight?
He went, yeah, yeah. I went, okay, I'm performing. He went, oh, cool, cool. And that was it.
(24:15):
There was no other... I'm just a really big fan. Okay, thank you. And I don't think it
necessarily registered because probably everywhere he went that happened.
Yeah.
But I was... But his friend was a man called Dorian Crook.
I love Dorian Crook. He's an air traffic controller. Isn't he? Well, I think he may have stopped
now, but he's a great guy. Marvelous human. Come on, Simon.
(24:37):
You met at my birthday.
I did, yeah.
And so I'm still friendly with Dorian. Dorian was comparing that night. And so Bob had been
at art school with... Sorry, Dorian had been at art school with Vic Reeves. And Dorian
had become a friend of Bob's and had actually performed in their Big Not Out shows. And
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Bob was in the audience. And while I was performing, my memory is of Bob coming closer to the
front and while I was on stage. That's my memory of it. And then after the show... And
they went down really well. I stormed in.
It was chumbly.
It was a journey.
Yeah. And I absolutely... I was like, Bob Morton is in the audience.
(25:20):
I don't know if I'm going to go... I don't know if anyone's going to laugh, but I need
to...
Make this work.
I need to make this work because this is a... Shit just got real. You know what I mean?
This is a whole other thing. I'm 18 years old. I'm working in a job I'm really... It
wasn't for me. And I'd had a tough life and I started doing stand up and my hero is in
(25:41):
the audience. And I'm 18 and I've been doing this for five weeks. And it hasn't been going
that well. And so I go on stage and somehow they all laugh and Bob really laughs and I'm
looking at him and he's really, really laughing.
And then afterwards comes up to me in the pub upstairs above and introduces himself.
(26:05):
So I don't think he remembered that I'd met him before the gig because I'd ambushed him.
And also I think I'd had the wig on and now I didn't have the wig on. I used to wear a
wig. So I think maybe it just hadn't quite registered.
The character.
Yeah. He introduced the character and he introduced... Because I lost my hair when I was six. I actually
(26:29):
had a wig at school and it's that wig I used to wear.
Oh, I see. So you... Why? So it wasn't a character wig. This was actually...
Well, it was a... No.
At this point it was.
By this point it was a character wig.
But it had previously been...
So I'd go on stage and it was the biggest laugh I'd get, which is to sometimes just
be on stage and like with three minutes to go I just do that and carry on. And my whole
(26:51):
hair would just go and I just carry on.
You did that in Amphibious Spangularis.
Probably.
Because it had us... It gave people a bit of a shock.
You did. Because I now remember.
Right. Well...
You've saved that to the end because you did. You sort of... Yeah.
Just did that and then no... Just carried on.
Carried on as if nothing.
Yeah. So I do that. Or sometimes I go... And then put it back on. I mean, depending on
(27:15):
what I fancy. Sometimes I heckle me. Oh, shut up. I throw it in and just carry on. Yeah.
So... And Bob said...
So yeah. And he said, I really enjoyed what you did. He said, I work at a company called
Channel X and I'd love to help you get seen and help you get some work. So he sort of...
He didn't say I'm a comedian. He just said, I work with a company called Channel X. And
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it was very... And I gave him my phone number. And I couldn't believe it.
He was a landline, I presume.
Yeah. It was a landline. And then he called me. Yeah.
Brilliant.
About three weeks later.
What does nine to five at St Matthew Lucas's look like when you're building...
If I was working with Wallyons.
Yeah.
I was working on my own.
(27:58):
Let's start with Wallyons. When you're working as a duo and then maybe when you're on your
own. That'd be very interesting to compare and contrast. But what would a day look like
when you're working with Wallyons?
Well, we've got another episode of Little Britain to write. Where the hell do you start?
Well, we used to write Little Britain or Come Fly With Me at his house or mine. Obviously,
(28:24):
his flat or mine at the same. Well, then as we did well, his house or mine. And then eventually,
you know, I go there sometimes it might be a member of staff over the door.
He's not joking.
I'm not joking. And we were pretty good. We were pretty good. We would aim to start ten.
(28:47):
I would always arrive at 10.04 because I can't seem to get mine.
Really? Okay. Is it right?
Yeah. Or 10.06.
Or something.
10.10.
Maybe on a really good day 9.59.
If he owes people money, let's say it's five pounds, he'll always send 4.99. Like a penny
off. Yeah, just a tease vehicle. Anyway. So you get there, you wouldn't get there long
(29:10):
time.
Yeah, but not terribly.
Not deliberately.
I'd always be there. Yeah.
And we'd chat. Just what did you see last night? Which TV show did you watch? Did you
went to the theatre or you saw a film or you saw a friend? But 10 minutes.
Okay.
Eight minutes.
Not an hour.
(29:31):
No, I'd like to.
I would have done two hours. But he's more...
Yeah. I once wrote a thing with Reece Thomas once. You know Reece?
Yeah, I do.
Who I'm very, very fond of. I think we wrote a line a day because we were just having too
much fun just chatting. But no, we were pretty good. And then he's very disciplined. And
then we work until one o'clock and then half an hour for lunch. But we're often working
(29:59):
over, still talking about the work during lunch. And then working till 4.30-ish, I would
say. So 10 to 4.30, which is a short working day. But then you've got to go home and do
a ton of emails and do other things or sometimes have meetings as well. But we try and do 10
to 4.30, sometimes 10 to 5. At very least six hours of writing. And how we would write...
(30:23):
Each day you try and write a sketch or two before lunch and a sketch or two after. So
two to three sketches a day, I would say. Sometimes four and a really good day.
Would you have a method to that? Like, okay, so you start with the beginning, middle and
then the end?
Yeah. You do. You plot the sketch before you write the sketch. Because otherwise you're
just going to be writing it and there's no ending and you don't know what to do. So you'd
(30:43):
have a... You'd talk about the idea and try and come in with an idea. And we'd have a
list anyway of what we need to write.
That you'd build up perhaps on an earlier session.
Yeah. But generally, oh, you know, I saw this thing last night, you know, and I was thinking,
I wonder if there's something, I need to talk about it. And you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
(31:05):
it's usually the kernel of something that then becomes the defining characteristic of
that character, which is disproportionate. So, you know, you take something really small,
but that becomes very...
(31:26):
It's really interesting, yeah.
Often it's that. And I mean, different characters exist in different ways because, you know,
the bitty sketches where a man is still being breastfed as an adult are very different sketches
to Vicky Pollard are very different sketches to Sebastian and the Prime Minister. Yeah,
(31:49):
sketches work in different ways. But we were...
Would you say there's a defining link between all of them or not? Not thematically, but
just is there something at the heart of each of your sketches that is, that's the angel
of it?
There's got to be something in each sketch where you recognise the truth. So for us,
(32:10):
so Little Britain had rules, for instance, which was, you know, I was a bit reticent
about doing a, trying to do a sketch show because at that time there were a lot of sketch
shows on TV. And I just thought, and there'd been some really brilliant ones, you know,
in the Day to Day, The League of Gentlemen, even things like The Two Runners, Not the
(32:32):
Nine O'Clock News. There'd been some such brilliant sketch shows that I just thought,
can we compete? Should we even try? But when we came up with this concept of Little Britain,
which was, which had rules, like, well, look, it's a look at Britain today. So having the
(32:55):
rules like no character is aware of the camera, so there's nothing that's done down the lens.
You know, you'd go and see a sketch show and they'd go into monologues.
Got it. Okay.
And you would never see the studio audience. There's no historical parodies. There's no
(33:21):
TV and film parodies. There's no spoof adverts. There's no, it wasn't one of those sketch
shows. It was, it was...
Did you put those down on paper?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had the rules. Yeah. So it was, characters do not break the fourth
wall so they don't look at a camera. They're not suddenly breaking into song or we weren't
really playing with form too much. And to a greater extent, the characters lived in
(33:52):
a world that had, the world itself had some believability. So if a character was being
wild, so when Vicki Pollard is going into a pub and she's done a dreadful fake ID, which
she's just drawn herself as a scroll and she's handing it over, the barman will say, well,
obviously you've drawn that. So it's not like, oh, thank you very much. Yes, of course you've
(34:16):
been up a pipe. Like that when a character was misbehaving, that there was, it was acknowledged
that you can't just do that. The rules are the rules. And because without those rules,
there's no, it can just be anything and then there's nothing at stake. I mean, this is
(34:36):
not a criticism of Monty Python. It's more of an observation because Monty Python is
up there with Alice in Wonderland. It's up there with Edward Lear. I mean, it's that
tradition, rich tradition of surreal, brilliant surreal art, isn't it? But they'll do things
(34:57):
at the end of their sketches, which was maverick and groundbreaking in its day. I think we've
had enough of this sketch. I think I'm going to go and take a walk in the ocean or something
like that, wouldn't they? And then walk out into another sketch, which is amazing. And
I loved it, but we, we didn't do, we couldn't, we, we, we weren't allowed to do things like
(35:18):
that in our show. We, we absolutely know. And generally it was interesting because Little
Britain began on radio and we did some sketches, which I really loved on radio that never could
have existed in the TV show for that reason. And also because they would have been far
(35:39):
too expensive to film, which was, we, we, we did these sketches. I think they may have
even been in the very first ever episode where we, it was the witch from Hansel and Gretel
having her house built. So you had looked like a contractor and he's just giving her
an appraisal say, yeah, I wouldn't advise for the, for the toffee roof love, because
(36:02):
that's going to melt in, that'll melt in summer. I'm trying to get you a, a, a glacier mince
for the windows. Obviously I'm trying to get you, you know, it was all of that.
Where did that come from?
Well, it was just like-
Was that just the accident of you just being playful in the room?
Yeah, I can't remember. It might have been David's idea. It was, but it was just a what
(36:24):
if, you know, what if the witch was-
Yeah, that's a great-
In the trial to have that house built. Like you were trying to build a house made out
of sweets. It was just, it was sort of melt. It would crumble. The biscuits would go stale.
I mean, it just wouldn't, no one's really given it much thought.
It was a very useful device though. What if-
Yeah, yeah. What if? So it was a funny sketch and, and she's like, oh yeah, like the toffee
(36:49):
roof, that's that. Oh God, that'll give you a jip in the summer. And I'm just worried
about this and that. And it's quite, it's quite a sweet, you know, yeah, what I've done
is you could sort of hear the sounds of the building site, I think. And it was, it was
a fun sketch. And so just one thing, why are you, why are you making a house out of sweets?
(37:12):
And she just says, oh, it's a little children here and kill them. And then that's just the
end of the sketch.
Yeah, take your routine.
Yeah, take your routine as they're like, no, of course.
Yeah. And I loved that sketch. I was, I was really proud of it. And I really campaigned
to have it in the TV pilot. And of course people said, well, it's going to cost you
30 or 40,000 pounds to build that house. So we can't, you know, we can't afford to do
(37:34):
that. And I was like, oh, maybe in the series. But actually, of course, when I tell you that
sketch now, you go, well, that sketch will, wouldn't go in little Britain because it's
set in a fairy land and little Britain isn't. I think probably one of the few concessions
where we just said, you know what, we really like it. We're going to do it. Is the Dennis
Waterman sketches where he's tiny. And, and, and we,
(37:58):
Yeah, because that is fantastical.
That is fantastical. And we don't have very many, but I think, you know, if you look at
it, like often your favourite American comedies, particularly that they were doing in the sort
of eighties and nineties where it's like big, you know, where, where you have a sort of
realish world, but one rule can be broken. You know, and if you keep breaking lots of
(38:19):
rules, it's just a mess. But in big, it's like, oh, they've, you know, he's in the body of
a, he's a 12 year old in the body of an adult little Britain. We tried not to break that
rule. I think Dennis Waterman was probably the rule you can break. But just generally,
yeah, we, we tried to stick to those rules and we had Tom Baker's narration, which was
(38:41):
really useful because it meant we could start a sketch at the last minute possible. And
we didn't have to have loads of exposition and explanatory explaining stuff. Is it right
there? Cause he can tell you and make you laugh at the same time, everything you need
to know so that you can just get on with the business of the sketch.
Yeah, it was a very, it was a good idea. And that, that only came, that only came because
(39:02):
it was on radio. Right. We needed to do something on radio. And then it worked. Yeah. And then,
and then when we were talking about doing the TV pilot, there was like, well, we, we
don't need it for TV. Maybe we shouldn't have it. But then we're like, that's really funny.
And it's really useful. And it's really useful. But originally we were talking, well, maybe,
maybe we don't, cause you can see it. Yeah. You know, but I'm really glad we kept it.
(39:25):
We were talking about trying to understand one of the obvious things with being funny
is being close to a line or being, you know, how far, I watching it and I loved Little
Britain so much, but I thought one thing you did so brilliantly was kind of kiss the line.
But it felt like, and the beauty of it was all your characters sort of were really close
to being, Oh, can you do, can you get away with that? Yeah. You know why? Cause people
(39:49):
like that stuff. They're watching that stuff. It's a bit of a myth at the moment that people
don't like watching that stuff. They actually enjoy it. They like, they love being offended.
That's why the show did well. Comedy has to be unkind, unpleasant, naughty, rude. Yeah.
Cause it has to speak the truth. And you know, if you look, if you go back to, you know,
medieval times with, with the jester was the only one who could say those things about
(40:10):
the king. Nobody else could. They'd say they'd lose their heads, but the jester could. And
you need a jester. You need somebody with free reign to say, to speak, you know, true
come to power and to tell people truths that they know, but dare and, dare and speak. Yeah.
Was that part of the rule book? Were you consciously doing that or was it just part of it? We're
just trying to make ourselves laugh. But of course, you know, we, we, our first shows
(40:32):
that we did, me and David together, we're at the Edinburgh festival and we were on at
midnight and we were playing a sweat box of a room to an audience that might have already
seen three or four shows that day and they're already drunk and it's midnight. And so we
used to have to terrorise that room ourselves or we would, or we would get terrorised. For
us, Little Britain was really reigned in from what we were doing on stage. It was a very,
(40:56):
a very demure sort of version of it. You know, no, Little Britain was very vanilla for us.
I should just say another thing about the Little Britain writing process, cause, cause,
cause I would recommend this to anybody if they were ever doing a sketch show again.
And of course there's not many sketch shows on TV. I think there's zero. Yeah. But even,
(41:18):
even if you're doing stuff for Tik Tok and YouTube and Insta and other platforms, which
was, we made a kind of mistake early on or something we just learned, which is about
every sort of month or six weeks, we try and get in a room with whoever was producing that
series. Cause the producer was originally my family more. And then she was, she was
(41:40):
expecting twins. So Jeff Posner then produced the show from then on. And then we'd have,
we had a different director each time because we, we picked great directors, but they were
always in demand. And we actually had, again, different, we had Mark Gatiss scripted at
the first series and Rob Brydon and Richard Herring. We had good, good people, but they
were always busy. So we'd have to get new people in, but every sort of six weeks or
(42:03):
so we'd get a little office somewhere, a higher room in, sometimes it was at Soho House because
they could bring lunch and cups of tea in, which was quite useful. But we'd, we'd sit,
I know it was bougie. We'd sit around a table and read everything we'd written so far. And
every, after every sketch we'd get notes about, oh, that's what-
(42:23):
Who would you read it to?
To Jeff.
To Jeff. Oh.
And Rob Brydon, say, and Mark Gatiss or whoever was in the room. There'd only be two or three
of them, sometimes the director, but they might not come aboard till later. But just
reading out loud and then just talking about each sketch and going, I think that'll work
or that should be good or I don't think that's quite working. One of the things we did was,
(42:43):
because we'd have, first series we had eight episodes and after that it was six episodes
per series. We would, you know, often try and write six sketches because it's for economy
of scale, which is if you're going to spend 30 grand on a, on a bubbles body suit, you
can't only do one sketch. You know, you're going to, you have to do more. And if you're
(43:04):
going to that location for Marjorie and hiring all those actors and setting it up, you need
to have more sketches. And also some characters, their impact grows when you see them again
and you learn more about them and you, you know. And, and sometimes I think, oh, that
we've seen them already while we've seen them again, but it's to do with, we'd get criticised
(43:25):
for that sometimes, but it's just to do with what you can afford to do, which is you can
only justify doing that if you can get 18 minutes out of it. If you can only get six
minutes out of it, we can't afford to do it in the series. So you have to film a number
of sketches and if you film them, you've got to use the least worst ones. So they end up
(43:47):
in the show. But the thing I was going to say is when we first started writing the show,
we might write six sketches of a new character we'd be really excited about. And we'd sit
in the room and read it out and the first sketch went down all right and the second
sketch nah. And then we'd go, oh, we don't even need to read the other ones out loud
(44:07):
because this character is just a dead duck. Yeah. And, and we were pretty good, me and
David, I mean, David in particular, we're pretty good going, that's not working. Let's
just leave it. Let's just leave it. If we just can't get it working, let's just, we
don't have time. But we just became a bit more strategic. And so by the time we were
working on our second and third series, if we came up with an idea, even if we loved
(44:30):
it, even if we were absolutely sure that you could get six or more sketches out of it,
one for each episode, we still probably would only write two of them first time and read
them out before we went to write the others. Even if we might write down the idea we have
for that other sketch, but it was, it was very, we stopped writing six sketches for
a character. Piloty, yeah, you'd be mini pilot. Mini pilot in that room before committing,
(44:56):
because that's still two or three days work, maybe, right, in those other sketches. And
it's not, it's just not good use of your time, you know, because we were having to also do
a series every year. And that's a lot, you know, to write that and hone it down and rewrite
and rewrite. And you didn't have a writer's room. No, no, no. You would be ourselves
Yeah, I think in later series, a couple of people wrote, I think there are about six
(45:18):
sketches that appeared in Little Britain that were written by other people that we
rewrote, which were existing characters that they would come in and generate some ideas
for. But I would say genuinely 99% of Little Britain was written by the two of us. Yeah.
Is there anything you've stolen from working with someone else? Something that a little
technique or a little charm or ability or skill where you've gone, oh, or someone's
(45:40):
given you advice, you've got to take that. Yeah. The other thing I learned, which I think
is really good, is from Reeves and Mortimer. When I was writing comic songs for Shooting
Stars, Bob said, take that song, cut it in half, and then cut it in half again. And so
my songs were 45 seconds, 50 seconds, right? It looks great as a yes, I had to do comedy
brilliantly. Yeah. And Ivor Dembina, one of the going full circle to when I was 18, and
(46:03):
I was doing a stand up comedy. And his advice to stand ups is great. And I'll finish with
this. It says, if it's going badly, get off. If it's going well, get off.
Well that's it for this episode. A colossal thank you to Matt Lucas. And don't forget
to subscribe and like, and we'll see you next time.
Welcome to our podcast. It's funny because it's true. This is Alex McQueen, this is
(00:06):
Timothy Clyde and we're going to try to unpick what it is that makes stuff funny. What's
the DNA of comedy? The yolk. What's at the heart of the egg? Yeah. So we've got a
load of interesting guests we're going to meet. Directors, producers, writers, editors,
performers, stand-ups, halls. But today we've got a very, very fine guest who's famous in
(00:27):
front of the camera as well as behind it. The very, very famous and wonderful Matthew
Richard Lucas. Thank you very much. Is it Lucas or is it Matthew, is it Richard Lucas?
The full name. What's the middle? Yeah Matthew Richard Lucas. Nice. Willem has started. How
the hell do we know each other? We did Wind in the Willows. We did Wind in the Willows.
(00:49):
We just met on set. We met on set in Wind in the Willows and we were in Bucharest and
I was playing Mr. Toad so I'd been there for a while. Because I played the court clar.
Yeah and I was just. They sentenced you to prison. You sentenced me to prison but I was
just struck by how brilliant you were and I just thought, yeah. And I just thought,
oh this guy's, this guy's good. This guy's. Well you were on it because you had some chunky
(01:14):
dialogue. I did. And you were on it. You knew it all. That's very good. And you were, yeah.
And I was just like. Yeah whereas me, I'd just be like, what line do I do? Can we, what?
I was doing scatterbrain. What was the first thing that ever made you laugh? Can you recall
that? Yeah I wrote a joke when I was three and a half. Which I used to tell everybody.
(01:41):
And it has all the rhythms of a joke without the. Punctual? Yeah without the rewards. Okay.
Which is why did the car go into the water? Why did the car drive into the water? Because
it wanted to get itself wet. And I wrote that when I was three and a half. I remember just,
I would tell it to everyone. I would roar with laughter. Can I just ask, why is that
(02:02):
funny? Well it's not. There's no joke. I'm not missing something. You know a joke has
like a punch line. There's a hidden. Yeah. Second. There's no second. That's just. It's
an explanation. It missed the back bit. Yeah it's the rhythms of the joke. But then you
see it was a sort of my version of why did the chicken cross the road to get to the other
side. Yes. Three and a half you wrote your first. Yeah yeah yeah. Good joke that. Great.
(02:24):
Good joke. And then my first proper joke that I wrote. Right. When you just sort of, it's
an actual sort of. Joke joke. Yeah I think probably was, well actually there's two that
I can remember. So I lost my hair when I was six. To alopecia. And my hair fell out. And.
It happened in an instant. It happened over just a few weeks. Oh really. It's dramatic
(02:48):
in its effect. Yeah yeah yeah. And then it grew back. It started to grow back and then
fell out again a year later. So and people, you know and suddenly it's sort of in an age
before empathy. An age where children and adults were both kind of cruel and not shy
of asking questions, pointing, laughing, all that kind of stuff. So I had to develop a
(03:10):
sort of thick skin. And there was a popular figure called Duncan Goodhue who you'll both
remember was an Olympic swimmer who also had alopecia. And it was seen as a great bonus
for him because it. Well it was. The theory is that he could get, yeah it was more aerodynamic
(03:32):
through the water. So. But he often spoke on television and radio. People asked him
how did you lose your hair? How did you lose your hair? And he used to say, well I was
climbing and I fell out of a tree. And I think it was the shock. And I used to say, well
people used to say, you know Duncan Goodhue fell out of a tree. Said the shock. Made his
(04:00):
hair fall out. Well it was my fucking head he landed on. Got it. And the shock made my
hair fall. So I used to say that when I was about 10 or 11. I remember thinking that's
quite funny. Yeah. But people didn't really laugh. But people were just like, adults would
laugh. Kids wouldn't really get it. They'd sort of take it literally. But the first joke
I remember sort of just sort of writing, coming up with, was a joke that other people have
(04:23):
done. Because I think it's one of those jokes that I can't be the only person who's written
this joke. But I did write it. Which was when someone talks about astrology, having a conversation
and they say, you know, star signs. I always say, I don't really believe in star signs.
(04:45):
But that's me, typical Pisces. So I remember writing that when I was about 14. And we'd
been quite happy with that. I think Joe Brand has told the sort of sayings that just independently
came up with it. We didn't see each other do the joke. We're just one of those things.
But who famous made you? When you were growing up, you were already the centre of comedy.
(05:07):
Who were you inspired by? I was definitely Laurel and Hardy. Really? Oh yeah. They're
like your friends. But there is something eerie about those films as well. There is
a real jeopardy about them. People get very angry with them. Oliver gets angry with, you
know, Stan. Things get really damaged. There's floods. They're violent. They are violent.
(05:33):
And there's something, they're safe. But there's always a sense of danger about those films.
You know, if Stanley says the wrong thing, his wife will clobber him or punish him. Oliver
Hardy can, you know, will box Stan's ears if something goes wrong. It's quite punchy
(05:53):
and judy. Yeah, it is quite. They'll throw a brick at someone's head or something like
that. But they're still my favourites. So Laurel and Hardy, would you describe that
as one of your key inspirations? Definitely. And Chaplin. I read his autobiography. I got
his autobiography out of the school library, which is called weirdly My Autobiography,
(06:17):
which is a weird title because you think, well, who else's autobiography could it be?
His autobiography is by definition the writers. But anyway, you know, and I read both parts
of that and I became a real Chaplin aficionado, absolute Chaplin geek. There's a brilliant
surrealism that's often overlooked in things like the gold rush when he's doing the little
(06:43):
routine with the bread rolls. And I think there's a sense that Laurel and Hardy, and
I don't mean this in a bad way, was slightly churning it out. They weren't really seen
as artists, Laurel and Hardy. They were just sort of funny.
Turns. Yeah, they were turns. It's almost like you
would watch their films like you'd watch a sitcom every week on TV. You'd be watching
it like that. Duty free or Tony.
(07:05):
Yeah, duty free or you must be the husband with Annette Newman. But Chaplin was sort
of, I think, an artist. Now, actually, Laurel and Hardy probably makes me laugh more than
Chaplin. And there's a more kishness to Chaplin now that hasn't a sentimentality that hasn't
dated very well. But I love those things. But I also loved Morkham and Wise and the Two
(07:29):
Ronnies and I used to watch those shows. There's a warmth about Morkham and Wise. I think the
Two Ronnies were less warm and more clever. Yeah. But one of the, you know, I do remember
coming back from Cub Camp and being picked up and going straight to my grandmother's
house. And as I walked in, I said, did you remember to video the Two Ronnies? Because
(07:50):
it was a Sunday and it would have been on the night before. And I said that before I
said hello to grandma. I've been in a lot of trouble. So, a lot of trouble.
So Morkham and Wise. Yes. What would you...
Everyone loves them. Yeah. But what do you think... If you... It's
probably very difficult to answer. But what would you say is there? What's their unique
(08:10):
secret? You talk about the warmth there. They are warmth. Which others maybe don't have
so much. What do you think is going on there that makes us want to not stop watching you?
Well, I think they feel like... I mean, they reinvent themselves. They have motifs running
through, you know, like Ernie being the aspiring writer, being the short one, being more of
(08:36):
a Lothario, you know, maybe being mean. Although they have various different sort of running
gags. But they used to have a star guest in each show or a couple. And they'd be laughing
with the celebrity, but they'd encourage the celebrity to sort of take the mick out of
(08:58):
themselves. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Which was really a good thing. And the more serious the guest, the better.
It's like a very prominent conductor or a very...
Yeah, Andre President or Glenda Jackson. People like that. Yeah. There's also this sense of
routine about it, which is, you know, they owned Christmas. That's the Christmas show
(09:20):
is Morecombe and Wise. And even... I mean, I was nine, I think, when Eric Morecombe died,
eight or nine. I remember when he died. But they carried on just repeating every Christmas,
regardless. There wasn't a break. They just...
I don't think it's probably the best thing on TV.
TV, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So good.
I think they're very warm. Eric Morecombe's like the funny uncle at A Family Do, isn't
(09:50):
he? He's just got the tricks. He'll be able to wiggle his...
Well, he's naughty for 50, or however he wants.
Yeah, he's naughty, but he's actually never lecherous. I mean, is that the age of...
The carry on movies is the same era, and I love the carry ons. But there's nothing sexual
about Morecombe and Wise, is there? No.
And I used to love that they shared the bed together, though. It was just really sweet.
(10:13):
They were like brothers, you know. Yeah.
They're very charming and... It's innocent. It was beautifully in the six.
Innocent. Also playing a lot with that thing that in the 80s, and 70s and 80s was so prevalent,
in comedy double acts, that you don't really see anymore. It's not really a thing anymore,
(10:36):
but growing up, which is... You'd have Ernie in the foreground trying to, quote, do something
serious and then Eric in the background ruining it.
Yeah. And Cannon and Ball always did that thing,
didn't they? Well, at least...
Little and Large did that thing, and it's the thing, isn't it?
To a degree, but they wrote some... To Ronnies. To a little degree.
To Ronnies to a degree, but I don't think that to Ronnies did that.
(10:59):
Consistently. No.
I think Smith and Jones did a little bit of it, but it's the idea of the more serious
member of the act. Being thought...
Coming on. Yes, exactly. And saying, good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'm going to
now be singing I Who Have Nothing. I, I who have nothing. And then somebody walking on
just in underpants, they're like, I've almost got nothing as well. It's that kind of...
(11:23):
I've just made that up, but it's that sort of thing you would have seen, wouldn't you?
You'd see Eric Morecambe walking on in a sort of overcoat, sweeping up in the background
while Ernie was trying to...
Utterly undermining and thwarting. Yeah, yeah. And Cannon and Ball did all of
that as well in Little and Large and...
So if they're your influences or they had an impact...
(11:43):
Well, there's the big influence I haven't mentioned.
Why? Well, let's do that.
Yeah.
It was Vic and Bob.
Right.
Yeah, yeah. And they were, if I had to pick one... I mean, I loved Harry Enfield as well.
I was a huge Harry Enfield fan, spitting image. Smith and Jones. I really devoured comedy.
I liked Helen Pace as well.
Well, you loved Helen Pace.
(12:03):
Yeah, they don't get a lot of credit, but they did some brilliant comedy songs. They
were great. They were great. But I think Reeves and Mortimer were just like aliens. They're
amazing. And I think it must have been like, if I'd been 20 years younger and discovered
The Mighty Boosh, it would have been the same thing. Which was with Reeves and Mortimer,
(12:26):
you're in a gang.
Yeah.
If you watch their thing, you're either in the gang or out the gang. And it was very
much like that. And just peculiarly British and the heritage of Python and the Goons and
Hoffnan and stuff like that. But...
Who?
Oh, Gerard Hoffnan.
Who, why?
Oh, Gerard Hoffnan. Do you know?
I don't know who they are.
We're in with a treat.
Oh, really?
(12:47):
Gerard Hoffnan is another huge influence.
Gerard Hoffnan was a humorist and a classical musician, really. And an amazing, amazing
cartoonist.
Oh, great.
And he died very young. He was an immigrant from, I think, Germany.
(13:07):
He was a young 30?
Yes, in his thirties.
Oh, okay.
And was operating in the forties and fifties and then gone. So sad. And anybody who's watching
this, try and find Gerard Hoffnan conversations that he had. Gerard Hoffnan in conversation,
(13:30):
these improvised...
Oh, great.
You will love that.
I don't know.
He had these two most diverse dialogues with an American guy. And Hoffnan is this old sort
of chap like that. And the weird thing is I had this character called Sir Bernard Jung.
And I'd thought of Sir Bernard before I'd heard of Hoffnan. And I was performing Sir
(13:51):
Bernard before I encountered Hoffnan. But when I encountered Hoffnan, I was like, oh,
this is the same thing, but a lot better.
So Hoffnan, Vic and Bob, they were so surreal and unapologetic and exotic and strange.
So yeah, I loved all of that stuff.
Well, we're going to move on shortly to the pros and et cetera. But before we do that,
(14:14):
that segues, the Vic and Bob thing is quite a useful segue into how did you... What was
your first entree...
I'll have a biscuit.
Yeah, have a biscuit time. What was your first entree...
I can see you.
Into comedy. How did you get into it? What was your lucky moment or break or...
Well, like a school play or actually sort of doing it professionally.
I would say professionally. Yeah. How did you get into it professionally?
(14:36):
I haven't got a saucer or a plate. I'm going to...
You put it on there. That'll do it fine.
I started... I saw an advert in a magazine to go on a standup comedy course. I wanted
to do standup comedy in my year off. I'd been in the National Youth Theatre where I'd met
(14:58):
David Williams, who people don't really know he is anymore, but he was a comic writer and
actor of this sort of early noughties.
Oh, the tall one in Little Britain is not very funny.
Yeah, yeah.
The other guy. He gave it up.
He is a guy, but he had a moment. And I was in the National Youth Theatre where I met
(15:20):
him. We were introduced to each other. He's three years older than me and he was already
in a play. I was on the introductory sort of...
Course.
The course, yeah. It was in the halls of residence.
Tuffnell Park.
Yeah, in Huddleston Road in Tuffnell Park, University Halls of Residence, which the National
Youth Theatre used during the summer holidays to base their actors who were on courses or
(15:46):
actually in the plays. Because with the National Youth Theatre, you'd have to be on a course
in your first year that was two or three weeks and then you'd be eligible to audition for
part in a play. David was in a play called Surrender Dorothy in the summer of 1990 that
I think went to the Edinburgh Festival. But they were rehearsing in London. They may have
(16:07):
had a short run in London as well, I'm not sure, but they were doing some rehearsals
in London. And I was on the junior course because I was 16. So I was one of the youngest
members. And I used to do an impression, which I won't do, of Jimmy Savile.
Okay.
And David...
I was about to make it, but no.
(16:28):
Yeah, that's not...
That's not doing it.
And David did a much better impression of Frankie Howard. Of course, he ended up playing
Frankie Howard in a drama.
Oh, did he?
In BBC Four, yeah. And I used to do my impression, people just used to call me Jimmy. People
thought that was my name and they thought his name was Frankie, they just called him
(16:48):
Frankie.
Okay, so first of all, you were known as Jimmy and Frankie.
And people kept telling me, have you met the guy who does Frankie Howard? Have you met
the guy? He's so funny. So I just heard about him. And then...
That's great.
In the bar at the halls of residence where the snooker table was.
Yes.
In the jukebox that used to play Ruby Tuesday by the Rolling Stones. In that room, I remember
(17:10):
by the snooker table, we were introduced to each other.
Who by? Who introduced you?
It was a guy actually called Jimmy, who was a Geordie, who was there on one of the courses.
He had no idea what he was doing.
And he...
That's extraordinary.
That's my memory of it. He kept saying, you're going to meet Frankie, you're so funny. Like
(17:30):
that.
And when you did meet him, did you say...
I just thought, oh my God. Well, he towered over me. Because I'm five foot six and a half,
he's six foot three. So he towered over me. And of course, when you're 16 and someone's
19...
It's a massive difference.
...there might as well be 50 years old. And he had a confidence and an authority. And
yeah, I just thought he was... The impression was amazing. And every time I saw him, I'd
(17:55):
go, go on, do it, do it, do it. And he'd be very annoyed that I was sort of making him
do it. But then he'd...
Kind of like it.
Kind of like it. But in the end, sometimes he'd go, no. And other times he'd go, all
right.
Well, I think we should put that down as your... That's the moment where your professional
career really began. So we can now... I think we can... Yeah, we can probably meet...
(18:16):
Well, so the next year, the next summer, when I was 17, in the summer of 1991, the National
Youth Theatre did a production of The Tempest. And David was in it, as Stefano or Trinca La,
I can't remember which one. And he was hilarious. And I was bringing props on and off stage.
(18:37):
But it was really weird. It was done in a Japanese style. So we were called Koken. So
we were covered head to toe in black, with black masks. And the set was sort of... The
props were fluorescent and they had the ultraviolet light. And then we would move the props like
this, and we'd be the sorcerer's apprentice and things like that. So I would watch David
(19:00):
in rehearsals every day. And we swapped addresses at the end. And we stayed in touch. And I
used to go and watch him do stand-up comedy. He was in a double act with a guy called Jason
Bradbury, who used to host The Gadget Show on Channel 5 quite recently. And... Sorry.
Yeah, quite recently. And I used to go and watch them. Where? They used to do open spots
(19:25):
in the London circuit. I used to watch them at the comedy stores. And they'd often bath...
They were sort of Vic and Bob light, basically. But they had some really great lines. But
I quoted some the other day and David was not happy about it because he's very embarrassed.
But I used to think they were really hilarious. And I'd go and watch them and sometimes they'd
(19:46):
die a death. But I would be in... I'd split my sides. Yeah. I just remember thinking it
was the funniest thing in the world, even though I'd see him sometimes just absolute
tank. Sometimes I'd see them do really well. But Jason didn't really want to be in a double
act that much. So... But I used to... I was really inspired by them. And that was the
(20:07):
bridge to me, knowing some people that actually performed. Because I used to go to comedy
clubs and watch people. I lived... I used to go to a comedy club called Punchlines, which
was in West Hampstead. And I'd go and see everyone. They're Harry Hill and Alan Davis
and Joe Brand. And this is in like 1991, 1992. And I was 18 years old. And I used to go with
(20:27):
friends and I'd be first in the queue. And I absolutely love it. Mark Thomas and Kevin
Day and Kevin Elden and see really great comedians. And then I decided to do it myself. So I saw
an advert in a magazine and I went on a stand up comedy course that was run by a comedian
(20:50):
called Ivor D'Embina. And it was like a night school for about six or eight weeks.
Once a week.
Once a week, Thursday nights in 1992. And I said to my mum, I really want to do... I
want to take a year off before going to university after A levels and do stand up. My mum said,
well, you have to get a job. I mean, I can't... It's just me and my mum. I can't afford
(21:11):
to just have you living here. So I got a job working in the day at Chelsea Football Club
in the club shop. I'm a big Arsenal fan. But I used to help run youth clubs at the local
synagogue and our family synagogue in Northwest London. And I used to sometimes babysit for
some of those kids that used to come to youth club. And one family, I used to babysit for
(21:35):
them regularly. And he had the franchise to run the shop at Chelsea Football Club. So
I went to work for him full time. Their surname was Pollard, which of course ended up Vicky
Pollard.
Oh, really? That was great.
Yeah. But they... So I started doing stand up at the age of 18 after Ivor Dembina's comedy
(21:57):
course.
And that's when Vic and Bob came to see you. And that's when they went, we'll have you.
I've been doing it for open spots for five weeks. I mean, really...
Quite novice.
Really, very novice. I had a... I mean, I don't know what my act was, but I went to
play the white horse in Belsize Park. There was a small comedy club below it called the
(22:21):
VD Clinic, which was short for the Valdunican Clinic. And it was for new act.
Right.
And so I'd done a couple of shows there. And well, I say shows like a sort of 10 minute
team that I'd written as this character, Sir Bernard Chumbly, who ended up in Little Britain.
I remember it. I remember it being at the festival and hearing about it. Who's to heckle
(22:45):
yourself? Shut up! What? Who's it? What?
Oh, you genius, you bastard. How dare you be so good?
Yeah. One of my favourite heckle put downs, which I did later on, which was somebody heckled
me and I went... I was doing... I don't know what I did it, but I just went, look, I'm
really trying my best up here. This is actually extremely hurtful. You know, I'm giving my
(23:09):
best. I'm trying to tell jokes. And you're just sort of shouting at me and think about
what that does to me. And then I just went back into the room. Which is such a weird
thing to do. But I remember being really... Remember, there was that delay and then it
got a big roar of laughter because I'd been heckling myself nonstop and then just suddenly
just did that and then went back into heckling.
(23:31):
And also it's basically no one else can play this game. I can, you can't.
Yeah, exactly. So I was performing at the White Horse and I saw Bob Mortimer in the
bar before the show and I was like...
Bloody hell.
Oh my God, because I was Reeves and Mortimer fanatic. Fanatic. And they kind of influenced
(23:55):
the act I was doing. It was very sub Reeves and Mortimer, what I was doing. And I went
and just very briefly introduced myself.
So you took the initiative to go up with...
Yeah, but just really like, are you... Bob, Bob, are you a veteran of the show tonight?
He went, yeah, yeah. I went, okay, I'm performing. He went, oh, cool, cool. And that was it.
(24:15):
There was no other... I'm just a really big fan. Okay, thank you. And I don't think it
necessarily registered because probably everywhere he went that happened.
Yeah.
But I was... But his friend was a man called Dorian Crook.
I love Dorian Crook. He's an air traffic controller. Isn't he? Well, I think he may have stopped
now, but he's a great guy. Marvelous human. Come on, Simon.
(24:37):
You met at my birthday.
I did, yeah.
And so I'm still friendly with Dorian. Dorian was comparing that night. And so Bob had been
at art school with... Sorry, Dorian had been at art school with Vic Reeves. And Dorian
had become a friend of Bob's and had actually performed in their Big Not Out shows. And
(24:59):
Bob was in the audience. And while I was performing, my memory is of Bob coming closer to the
front and while I was on stage. That's my memory of it. And then after the show... And
they went down really well. I stormed in.
It was chumbly.
It was a journey.
Yeah. And I absolutely... I was like, Bob Morton is in the audience.
(25:20):
I don't know if I'm going to go... I don't know if anyone's going to laugh, but I need
to...
Make this work.
I need to make this work because this is a... Shit just got real. You know what I mean?
This is a whole other thing. I'm 18 years old. I'm working in a job I'm really... It
wasn't for me. And I'd had a tough life and I started doing stand up and my hero is in
(25:41):
the audience. And I'm 18 and I've been doing this for five weeks. And it hasn't been going
that well. And so I go on stage and somehow they all laugh and Bob really laughs and I'm
looking at him and he's really, really laughing.
And then afterwards comes up to me in the pub upstairs above and introduces himself.
(26:05):
So I don't think he remembered that I'd met him before the gig because I'd ambushed him.
And also I think I'd had the wig on and now I didn't have the wig on. I used to wear a
wig. So I think maybe it just hadn't quite registered.
The character.
Yeah. He introduced the character and he introduced... Because I lost my hair when I was six. I actually
(26:29):
had a wig at school and it's that wig I used to wear.
Oh, I see. So you... Why? So it wasn't a character wig. This was actually...
Well, it was a... No.
At this point it was.
By this point it was a character wig.
But it had previously been...
So I'd go on stage and it was the biggest laugh I'd get, which is to sometimes just
be on stage and like with three minutes to go I just do that and carry on. And my whole
(26:51):
hair would just go and I just carry on.
You did that in Amphibious Spangularis.
Probably.
Because it had us... It gave people a bit of a shock.
You did. Because I now remember.
Right. Well...
You've saved that to the end because you did. You sort of... Yeah.
Just did that and then no... Just carried on.
Carried on as if nothing.
Yeah. So I do that. Or sometimes I go... And then put it back on. I mean, depending on
(27:15):
what I fancy. Sometimes I heckle me. Oh, shut up. I throw it in and just carry on. Yeah.
So... And Bob said...
So yeah. And he said, I really enjoyed what you did. He said, I work at a company called
Channel X and I'd love to help you get seen and help you get some work. So he sort of...
He didn't say I'm a comedian. He just said, I work with a company called Channel X. And
(27:38):
it was very... And I gave him my phone number. And I couldn't believe it.
He was a landline, I presume.
Yeah. It was a landline. And then he called me. Yeah.
Brilliant.
About three weeks later.
What does nine to five at St Matthew Lucas's look like when you're building...
If I was working with Wallyons.
Yeah.
I was working on my own.
(27:58):
Let's start with Wallyons. When you're working as a duo and then maybe when you're on your
own. That'd be very interesting to compare and contrast. But what would a day look like
when you're working with Wallyons?
Well, we've got another episode of Little Britain to write. Where the hell do you start?
Well, we used to write Little Britain or Come Fly With Me at his house or mine. Obviously,
(28:24):
his flat or mine at the same. Well, then as we did well, his house or mine. And then eventually,
you know, I go there sometimes it might be a member of staff over the door.
He's not joking.
I'm not joking. And we were pretty good. We were pretty good. We would aim to start ten.
(28:47):
I would always arrive at 10.04 because I can't seem to get mine.
Really? Okay. Is it right?
Yeah. Or 10.06.
Or something.
10.10.
Maybe on a really good day 9.59.
If he owes people money, let's say it's five pounds, he'll always send 4.99. Like a penny
off. Yeah, just a tease vehicle. Anyway. So you get there, you wouldn't get there long
(29:10):
time.
Yeah, but not terribly.
Not deliberately.
I'd always be there. Yeah.
And we'd chat. Just what did you see last night? Which TV show did you watch? Did you
went to the theatre or you saw a film or you saw a friend? But 10 minutes.
Okay.
Eight minutes.
Not an hour.
(29:31):
No, I'd like to.
I would have done two hours. But he's more...
Yeah. I once wrote a thing with Reece Thomas once. You know Reece?
Yeah, I do.
Who I'm very, very fond of. I think we wrote a line a day because we were just having too
much fun just chatting. But no, we were pretty good. And then he's very disciplined. And
then we work until one o'clock and then half an hour for lunch. But we're often working
(29:59):
over, still talking about the work during lunch. And then working till 4.30-ish, I would
say. So 10 to 4.30, which is a short working day. But then you've got to go home and do
a ton of emails and do other things or sometimes have meetings as well. But we try and do 10
to 4.30, sometimes 10 to 5. At very least six hours of writing. And how we would write...
(30:23):
Each day you try and write a sketch or two before lunch and a sketch or two after. So
two to three sketches a day, I would say. Sometimes four and a really good day.
Would you have a method to that? Like, okay, so you start with the beginning, middle and
then the end?
Yeah. You do. You plot the sketch before you write the sketch. Because otherwise you're
just going to be writing it and there's no ending and you don't know what to do. So you'd
(30:43):
have a... You'd talk about the idea and try and come in with an idea. And we'd have a
list anyway of what we need to write.
That you'd build up perhaps on an earlier session.
Yeah. But generally, oh, you know, I saw this thing last night, you know, and I was thinking,
I wonder if there's something, I need to talk about it. And you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
(31:05):
it's usually the kernel of something that then becomes the defining characteristic of
that character, which is disproportionate. So, you know, you take something really small,
but that becomes very...
(31:26):
It's really interesting, yeah.
Often it's that. And I mean, different characters exist in different ways because, you know,
the bitty sketches where a man is still being breastfed as an adult are very different sketches
to Vicky Pollard are very different sketches to Sebastian and the Prime Minister. Yeah,
(31:49):
sketches work in different ways. But we were...
Would you say there's a defining link between all of them or not? Not thematically, but
just is there something at the heart of each of your sketches that is, that's the angel
of it?
There's got to be something in each sketch where you recognise the truth. So for us,
(32:10):
so Little Britain had rules, for instance, which was, you know, I was a bit reticent
about doing a, trying to do a sketch show because at that time there were a lot of sketch
shows on TV. And I just thought, and there'd been some really brilliant ones, you know,
in the Day to Day, The League of Gentlemen, even things like The Two Runners, Not the
(32:32):
Nine O'Clock News. There'd been some such brilliant sketch shows that I just thought,
can we compete? Should we even try? But when we came up with this concept of Little Britain,
which was, which had rules, like, well, look, it's a look at Britain today. So having the
(32:55):
rules like no character is aware of the camera, so there's nothing that's done down the lens.
You know, you'd go and see a sketch show and they'd go into monologues.
Got it. Okay.
And you would never see the studio audience. There's no historical parodies. There's no
(33:21):
TV and film parodies. There's no spoof adverts. There's no, it wasn't one of those sketch
shows. It was, it was...
Did you put those down on paper?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had the rules. Yeah. So it was, characters do not break the fourth
wall so they don't look at a camera. They're not suddenly breaking into song or we weren't
really playing with form too much. And to a greater extent, the characters lived in
(33:52):
a world that had, the world itself had some believability. So if a character was being
wild, so when Vicki Pollard is going into a pub and she's done a dreadful fake ID, which
she's just drawn herself as a scroll and she's handing it over, the barman will say, well,
obviously you've drawn that. So it's not like, oh, thank you very much. Yes, of course you've
(34:16):
been up a pipe. Like that when a character was misbehaving, that there was, it was acknowledged
that you can't just do that. The rules are the rules. And because without those rules,
there's no, it can just be anything and then there's nothing at stake. I mean, this is
(34:36):
not a criticism of Monty Python. It's more of an observation because Monty Python is
up there with Alice in Wonderland. It's up there with Edward Lear. I mean, it's that
tradition, rich tradition of surreal, brilliant surreal art, isn't it? But they'll do things
(34:57):
at the end of their sketches, which was maverick and groundbreaking in its day. I think we've
had enough of this sketch. I think I'm going to go and take a walk in the ocean or something
like that, wouldn't they? And then walk out into another sketch, which is amazing. And
I loved it, but we, we didn't do, we couldn't, we, we, we weren't allowed to do things like
(35:18):
that in our show. We, we absolutely know. And generally it was interesting because Little
Britain began on radio and we did some sketches, which I really loved on radio that never could
have existed in the TV show for that reason. And also because they would have been far
(35:39):
too expensive to film, which was, we, we, we did these sketches. I think they may have
even been in the very first ever episode where we, it was the witch from Hansel and Gretel
having her house built. So you had looked like a contractor and he's just giving her
an appraisal say, yeah, I wouldn't advise for the, for the toffee roof love, because
(36:02):
that's going to melt in, that'll melt in summer. I'm trying to get you a, a, a glacier mince
for the windows. Obviously I'm trying to get you, you know, it was all of that.
Where did that come from?
Well, it was just like-
Was that just the accident of you just being playful in the room?
Yeah, I can't remember. It might have been David's idea. It was, but it was just a what
(36:24):
if, you know, what if the witch was-
Yeah, that's a great-
In the trial to have that house built. Like you were trying to build a house made out
of sweets. It was just, it was sort of melt. It would crumble. The biscuits would go stale.
I mean, it just wouldn't, no one's really given it much thought.
It was a very useful device though. What if-
Yeah, yeah. What if? So it was a funny sketch and, and she's like, oh yeah, like the toffee
(36:49):
roof, that's that. Oh God, that'll give you a jip in the summer. And I'm just worried
about this and that. And it's quite, it's quite a sweet, you know, yeah, what I've done
is you could sort of hear the sounds of the building site, I think. And it was, it was
a fun sketch. And so just one thing, why are you, why are you making a house out of sweets?
(37:12):
And she just says, oh, it's a little children here and kill them. And then that's just the
end of the sketch.
Yeah, take your routine.
Yeah, take your routine as they're like, no, of course.
Yeah. And I loved that sketch. I was, I was really proud of it. And I really campaigned
to have it in the TV pilot. And of course people said, well, it's going to cost you
30 or 40,000 pounds to build that house. So we can't, you know, we can't afford to do
(37:34):
that. And I was like, oh, maybe in the series. But actually, of course, when I tell you that
sketch now, you go, well, that sketch will, wouldn't go in little Britain because it's
set in a fairy land and little Britain isn't. I think probably one of the few concessions
where we just said, you know what, we really like it. We're going to do it. Is the Dennis
Waterman sketches where he's tiny. And, and, and we,
(37:58):
Yeah, because that is fantastical.
That is fantastical. And we don't have very many, but I think, you know, if you look at
it, like often your favourite American comedies, particularly that they were doing in the sort
of eighties and nineties where it's like big, you know, where, where you have a sort of
realish world, but one rule can be broken. You know, and if you keep breaking lots of
(38:19):
rules, it's just a mess. But in big, it's like, oh, they've, you know, he's in the body of
a, he's a 12 year old in the body of an adult little Britain. We tried not to break that
rule. I think Dennis Waterman was probably the rule you can break. But just generally,
yeah, we, we tried to stick to those rules and we had Tom Baker's narration, which was
(38:41):
really useful because it meant we could start a sketch at the last minute possible. And
we didn't have to have loads of exposition and explanatory explaining stuff. Is it right
there? Cause he can tell you and make you laugh at the same time, everything you need
to know so that you can just get on with the business of the sketch.
Yeah, it was a very, it was a good idea. And that, that only came, that only came because
(39:02):
it was on radio. Right. We needed to do something on radio. And then it worked. Yeah. And then,
and then when we were talking about doing the TV pilot, there was like, well, we, we
don't need it for TV. Maybe we shouldn't have it. But then we're like, that's really funny.
And it's really useful. And it's really useful. But originally we were talking, well, maybe,
maybe we don't, cause you can see it. Yeah. You know, but I'm really glad we kept it.
(39:25):
We were talking about trying to understand one of the obvious things with being funny
is being close to a line or being, you know, how far, I watching it and I loved Little
Britain so much, but I thought one thing you did so brilliantly was kind of kiss the line.
But it felt like, and the beauty of it was all your characters sort of were really close
to being, Oh, can you do, can you get away with that? Yeah. You know why? Cause people
(39:49):
like that stuff. They're watching that stuff. It's a bit of a myth at the moment that people
don't like watching that stuff. They actually enjoy it. They like, they love being offended.
That's why the show did well. Comedy has to be unkind, unpleasant, naughty, rude. Yeah.
Cause it has to speak the truth. And you know, if you look, if you go back to, you know,
medieval times with, with the jester was the only one who could say those things about
(40:10):
the king. Nobody else could. They'd say they'd lose their heads, but the jester could. And
you need a jester. You need somebody with free reign to say, to speak, you know, true
come to power and to tell people truths that they know, but dare and, dare and speak. Yeah.
Was that part of the rule book? Were you consciously doing that or was it just part of it? We're
just trying to make ourselves laugh. But of course, you know, we, we, our first shows
(40:32):
that we did, me and David together, we're at the Edinburgh festival and we were on at
midnight and we were playing a sweat box of a room to an audience that might have already
seen three or four shows that day and they're already drunk and it's midnight. And so we
used to have to terrorise that room ourselves or we would, or we would get terrorised. For
us, Little Britain was really reigned in from what we were doing on stage. It was a very,
(40:56):
a very demure sort of version of it. You know, no, Little Britain was very vanilla for us.
I should just say another thing about the Little Britain writing process, cause, cause,
cause I would recommend this to anybody if they were ever doing a sketch show again.
And of course there's not many sketch shows on TV. I think there's zero. Yeah. But even,
(41:18):
even if you're doing stuff for Tik Tok and YouTube and Insta and other platforms, which
was, we made a kind of mistake early on or something we just learned, which is about
every sort of month or six weeks, we try and get in a room with whoever was producing that
series. Cause the producer was originally my family more. And then she was, she was
(41:40):
expecting twins. So Jeff Posner then produced the show from then on. And then we'd have,
we had a different director each time because we, we picked great directors, but they were
always in demand. And we actually had, again, different, we had Mark Gatiss scripted at
the first series and Rob Brydon and Richard Herring. We had good, good people, but they
were always busy. So we'd have to get new people in, but every sort of six weeks or
(42:03):
so we'd get a little office somewhere, a higher room in, sometimes it was at Soho House because
they could bring lunch and cups of tea in, which was quite useful. But we'd, we'd sit,
I know it was bougie. We'd sit around a table and read everything we'd written so far. And
every, after every sketch we'd get notes about, oh, that's what-
(42:23):
Who would you read it to?
To Jeff.
To Jeff. Oh.
And Rob Brydon, say, and Mark Gatiss or whoever was in the room. There'd only be two or three
of them, sometimes the director, but they might not come aboard till later. But just
reading out loud and then just talking about each sketch and going, I think that'll work
or that should be good or I don't think that's quite working. One of the things we did was,
(42:43):
because we'd have, first series we had eight episodes and after that it was six episodes
per series. We would, you know, often try and write six sketches because it's for economy
of scale, which is if you're going to spend 30 grand on a, on a bubbles body suit, you
can't only do one sketch. You know, you're going to, you have to do more. And if you're
(43:04):
going to that location for Marjorie and hiring all those actors and setting it up, you need
to have more sketches. And also some characters, their impact grows when you see them again
and you learn more about them and you, you know. And, and sometimes I think, oh, that
we've seen them already while we've seen them again, but it's to do with, we'd get criticised
(43:25):
for that sometimes, but it's just to do with what you can afford to do, which is you can
only justify doing that if you can get 18 minutes out of it. If you can only get six
minutes out of it, we can't afford to do it in the series. So you have to film a number
of sketches and if you film them, you've got to use the least worst ones. So they end up
(43:47):
in the show. But the thing I was going to say is when we first started writing the show,
we might write six sketches of a new character we'd be really excited about. And we'd sit
in the room and read it out and the first sketch went down all right and the second
sketch nah. And then we'd go, oh, we don't even need to read the other ones out loud
(44:07):
because this character is just a dead duck. Yeah. And, and we were pretty good, me and
David, I mean, David in particular, we're pretty good going, that's not working. Let's
just leave it. Let's just leave it. If we just can't get it working, let's just, we
don't have time. But we just became a bit more strategic. And so by the time we were
working on our second and third series, if we came up with an idea, even if we loved
(44:30):
it, even if we were absolutely sure that you could get six or more sketches out of it,
one for each episode, we still probably would only write two of them first time and read
them out before we went to write the others. Even if we might write down the idea we have
for that other sketch, but it was, it was very, we stopped writing six sketches for
a character. Piloty, yeah, you'd be mini pilot. Mini pilot in that room before committing,
(44:56):
because that's still two or three days work, maybe, right, in those other sketches. And
it's not, it's just not good use of your time, you know, because we were having to also do
a series every year. And that's a lot, you know, to write that and hone it down and rewrite
and rewrite. And you didn't have a writer's room. No, no, no. You would be ourselves
Yeah, I think in later series, a couple of people wrote, I think there are about six
(45:18):
sketches that appeared in Little Britain that were written by other people that we
rewrote, which were existing characters that they would come in and generate some ideas
for. But I would say genuinely 99% of Little Britain was written by the two of us. Yeah.
Is there anything you've stolen from working with someone else? Something that a little
technique or a little charm or ability or skill where you've gone, oh, or someone's
(45:40):
given you advice, you've got to take that. Yeah. The other thing I learned, which I think
is really good, is from Reeves and Mortimer. When I was writing comic songs for Shooting
Stars, Bob said, take that song, cut it in half, and then cut it in half again. And so
my songs were 45 seconds, 50 seconds, right? It looks great as a yes, I had to do comedy
brilliantly. Yeah. And Ivor Dembina, one of the going full circle to when I was 18, and
(46:03):
I was doing a stand up comedy. And his advice to stand ups is great. And I'll finish with
this. It says, if it's going badly, get off. If it's going well, get off.
Well that's it for this episode. A colossal thank you to Matt Lucas. And don't forget
to subscribe and like, and we'll see you next time.
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