Is the Ketogenic Diet Sustainable?

Is the ketogenic lifestyle truly sustainable, or just another passing dietary trend? This question confronts many who are curious about low-carb eating but hesitant to commit due to perceived challenges. In this candid conversation, Stephen and Graham shatter common misconceptions through their lived experiences.

The financial aspect of keto often raises eyebrows. Many assume ribeye steaks will bankrupt them, but both hosts reveal surprising economic realities. Stephen shares how his previous vegetarian diet actually cost more, with $500 monthly supplement bills and persistent nutrient deficiencies. Graham explains how naturally reduced meal frequency on keto—eating twice daily without snacking—substantially lowers food expenses despite buying higher-quality ingredients. The math simply works differently when your body operates efficiently.

Social pressure presents another significant barrier. Both hosts navigated judgment from friends and family who believed they were endangering their health. Stephen, whose wife remains vegetarian while he follows a carnivore approach, demonstrates how diverse eating patterns can coexist harmoniously. Through improved biomarkers and visible health transformations, they gained the confidence to withstand criticism. Interestingly, many skeptics eventually began adopting similar approaches after witnessing their results.

Perhaps most compelling is their physical transformation. Stephen, approaching 58, recently matched his college bench press numbers. Graham transitioned from struggling with daily dog walks to enjoying multiple 3-kilometer treks daily. Their energy, mobility, and strength flourished on ketogenic patterns—contradicting fears about physical decline without carbohydrates.

For those concerned about the infamous "keto flu," both hosts offer perspective and practical solutions. This temporary discomfort pales in comparison to the chronic digestive issues, energy crashes, and health concerns many experience on standard diets. As Stephen poignantly states, "I don't worry about where public washrooms are anymore." Sometimes sustainability isn't just about maintaining a diet—it's about creating a life worth living.

Curious about transforming your relationship with food? This episode provides honest insights from two individuals who've walked the path and found sustainable health on the other side. Subscribe now and join us on this journey to metabolic freedom.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Lessons from the Keto-Verse.
Join Stephen and Graham as theyexplore the keto lifestyle with
tips, science and stories toboost your health.
This podcast isn't medicaladvice.
Consult your healthcare advisorfor any health-related issues.
Get ready to fuel your primalpower.

Graham (00:18):
And welcome to another episode of Lessons from the
Keto-Verse.
I'm with my friend, Stephen.
My name is Graham and we aretalking about the ketogenic diet
and whether it is sustainable.
Lots of ways to definesustainable.
That can be cost, that can bearound nutrient deficiency, that

(00:40):
can be around sociallimitations, variety and
monotony, long-term healthconcerns.
Lots of different ways toconsider what is sustainable,
and that is what we'rediscussing today.
Stephen, welcome to the episode.

Stepen (00:57):
Thanks very much, Graham .
Happy to be here.

Graham (01:00):
All right, so why don't we start off with the initial
high cost of the ketogenic dietor carnivore diet?
This is something that I hear alot from people.
Either it's too expensive forme or I don't know how you
afford it, or how much more isyour bill these days, because
they think of the ribeye steakor whatever as something that is

(01:25):
going to be in addition to whatthey're buying in their grocery
cart every week, and so thisjust means that their monthly
bills are going to go up byhundreds.
Stephen, I thought I'd startoff with you.
I'm certainly happy to give myperspective as well, because you
come to this from maybe not acompletely unique perspective,

(01:48):
but a unique perspective, andthat you started off with what
some might consider another typeof extreme diet.
Why don't you take it fromthere?

Stepen (01:59):
Yeah, sure, Thanks, Grant, yeah.
So when I was diagnosed withdiabetes approximately seven
years ago, I immediatelyembarked on a vegetarian-vegan
diet and thinking that perhapsthat that would normalize my
sugar and improve outcomes.
And at that time, because I wasfocusing primarily on

(02:24):
vegetarian slash vegan, tryingto address some of the symptoms
and issues I was having with mygeneral digestion and general
feeling, I did lose some weightgoing on the vegetarian vegan
diet, but the cost to it I wouldnot consider substantially less

(02:44):
than it would be on a ketocarnivore diet.
And let me explain why.
My supplementation orconsumption of high-end
supplements that I was gettingfrom a naturopath would cost me
over $500 a month.
And ironically, when I came offthe diet and switched to keto
carnivore gram, it was veryinteresting because I had a

(03:05):
blood test taken and I was foundto be very low in B12,
magnesium and other elements B1as well because I hadn't been
consuming meat and interestingly, that associated high cost is
understandable.
I mean, you gave a greatexample.
You know people look at steakand the price of steak.
So interestingly, there is anelement of that where I could

(03:29):
understand where people arecoming from, Because in North
America presently there is ashortage of beef.
That's a result of environmentalissues, which has ultimately
led to the classic demand supplyproblem the supply is lower to
the classic demand supplyproblem.
The supply is lower, the herdsare smaller because of weather
conditions, drought and so forthhas drastically reduced the

(03:52):
number of cattle that are beingherded right now by the typical
farms that feed into the supplychain for beef, for instance.
So there's certainly a realityto it, but from a supply chain
perspective, the same applies.
Obviously, if we have drought,that's going to affect the crops
that we would consume as avegan or vegetarian.
So I think generally, groceriesare more expensive.

(04:14):
It's not specific to meat.

Graham (04:19):
Yeah, I would completely agree with that.
I think you know the high costof a ketogenic or a carnivore
diet is something that Iprobably would have said would
have been a concern.
I backed into the diet.
It wasn't something that Isought initially, it was more an
elimination for me, ended upeliminating everything.

(04:42):
But you know, know very lowcarbs and high protein, fat.
And you know one of the thingsthat maybe people don't consider
, because when I was on thatstandard American diet, I was
eating breakfast, lunch anddinner.
I was also snacking throughoutthe day.
That's something that peopledon't necessarily remember.

(05:05):
So maybe on the way to workthey're also grabbing, you know,
along with the beverage,they're grabbing something to
eat.
Well, that's food that you'vespent.
That could be 10 or 15 bucksright there.
You know that after dinnersnack, that late night snack.
I was terrible with the latenight snacks, not that they cost

(05:27):
a ton of money, but you'redoing it 30 days a month and all
that stuff can add up and I, asI, you know, started to learn
how to read ingredients on the,on the back of the box, not, not
, not on the label, and Istarted to put that stuff in the
middle of the grocery, not onthe label, and I started to put
that stuff in the middle of thegrocery store, back on the shelf

(05:48):
the bag of chips, the bread,all of these things that were
told are maybe healthy for us orhave that heart healthy symbol
on them.
I put them away and I startedto grab more protein, fat, and
if it was going to be carbs, itwas going to be whole food carbs

(06:09):
, whole vegetables, whole fruits, that kind of thing.
The amount of the number ofmeals I needed in the day went
from, you know, three meals aday, plus snacks let's call them
four or five meals a day downto two at the most.
And you know those.
Those two were highly saturated, highly nutrient, dense foods,

(06:34):
and so I wasn't hungry two hourslater.
I didn't need the snack.
I didn't need those snacks inthe house anymore.
I didn't need to buy thosesnacks.
And when I go to the grocerystore, in the past it would take
, you know, six boxes worth offood to bring home, to put in

(06:54):
the shelves, and I, you know, itmight cost me 350 bucks.
Today I'm filling two boxes.
That might cost me 300 bucks,but it's lasting me the same
amount of time because I'meating a lot less meals.
I'm getting the nutrients thatI need, because I did track my
nutrients for six months to makesure.
So I'm eating a lot less fromthe amount of time, I'm eating

(07:20):
about the same volume, but I'mgetting far more nutrients than
I have in the past.
So even though I would havesaid, yes, the ketogenic or
carnivore diet is going to bemore expensive, I have found in
the long run that it is not moreexpensive for me.
There's a couple of other thingsto consider.
I think the most importantthing is if you live with a

(07:44):
spouse, are they along for theride?
Because if you have a spousewho is, let's say, on a
completely different way ofeating than you are whether it's
the standard American diet orwhether it's a vegetarian diet
obviously you're going to haveto spend more money as a family
or as a couple to meet yournutrition needs or your food

(08:08):
needs.
If you're on the same way ofthinking and my wife and I are
very aligned in that and verysupportive of each other we're
having the same meals almostevery evening.
Often we'll have breakfast atdifferent times because we have
different schedules, but in theevening we try and eat together

(08:30):
and we'll have the same meal.
So that also helps cut down oncosts.
And I think the second thing toconsider is something that I
find really important is notjust sourcing nutrient-dense
foods like beef, for example,but coming up with creative ways
to cook that food so that youwant to eat at home.

(08:54):
One of the things that I foundwhen we were on the standard
American diet is I was so boredwith what I had that we want to
go out and eat more often thanwe do today, so we might eat out
a couple of three times, fourtimes, a month.
Well, each time we'd go outit'd be 75, 100 bucks.

(09:16):
That adds on to the bill.
A lot of people don't considerthat a grocery bill, but
actually, if you're not eatingout, that money stays in your
wallet, and so you do end upwith a lot more money at the end
of the month.
So if you can come up with waysto make your meals creatively
amazing and spend the time tolearn how to cook as best as

(09:37):
possible to make those mealsreally, really nutritious, you
don't look forward to going to arestaurant because you can cook
it better at home.
You know where the food hascome from.
You know how it was cooked, youknow what ingredients are going
into it, and there's a sense ofpride in making something for

(09:57):
yourself and knowing that you'renot only helping yourself but
your family as well.
What about things like sociallimitations, stephen?
So I imagine you have somestories of you know telling
people that you're on this crazyketogenic or carnivore diet and

(10:19):
there being a bit of a sort ofsocial impact what would you
call it sort of this immediatereaction of that must be bad for
you, because I've been told mywhole life that saturated fat is

(10:41):
going to kill you.
Is this something that can leadpeople astray, and how did you
overcome it?

Stepen (10:49):
Yeah, like there's a couple of things I wanted to
touch on.
I thought your comments aroundthe fact that we can prepare a
meal better from home than wecan in a restaurant.
I mean, I think you're right.
We become kind of food snobs alittle bit because I know, like
you just described, the steakthat I purchase at my local
butcher is so much moreexpensive in a restaurant and

(11:10):
because I'm in a small town, Ican't meet the quality of what I
can produce in my own home towhat I would be paying twice or
three times as much in arestaurant.
So I would say one of the socialfactors is the fact that it
takes a little bit more for meto be encouraged to go out and
eat out for dinner with friends,and usually it has to be some
sort of special occasion or arestaurant that specifically

(11:32):
caters to one of my favorites,which would be a roast beef meal
, and, unlike yourself and yourwife, my wife is a vegetarian,
has remained such for more than40 years, and so we respect each
other's choices.
But as a general rule, we donot go out that much, but when
we do, she eats what she wantsto eat and I eat what I want to

(11:52):
eat and we don't typically gettoo much pushback.
Occasionally, someone will notethat I'm the one with the meat
on the plate and she does not,and they'll query that a bit and
ask you know how we've managedto align as a couple, having
very different meal choices, aswell as whether it's ethically
driven or if there's a specificreason health-wise as to why

(12:16):
it's being done.
And that usually, graham, leadsme into discussing my diabetes
and discussing how I've reversedit and had great health
outcomes by finding a balancebetween a keto carnivore diet.
And I think it's important topoint out too that in these
social settings, you're likelynot going to get me to eat

(12:36):
something that I don't want toeat because, as I said in our
previous podcast, no one elsecan take on the flu that, I feel
, is the consequence of eatingfood that is clearly not good
for me, especially ultraprocessed foods, elevate sugar,
so I'm I'm a bit difficult toshift, but after they get over
the initial shock of you know,here's here's a couple of these,

(12:57):
completely different fordifferent reasons, and uh and
has a very good health.
Why is it that you continuedown this path?
And it comes back to what wediscussed before.
I have a CGM.
I monitor my sugar constantlyand in fact the last couple of
days have had a rush of cortisoljust due to work stress, just
like you.
And one of the ways I learnedto arrest that was actually

(13:22):
following the guidelines fromDavid Asbury, who talks about
biohacks.
And I had a strict carnivorediet last night of steak Graham
and if my glucose meter was atECG I'd be pronounced dead right
.
It was completely flat allnight, hovering in the high

(13:42):
fives and I'm perfectly finewith that.
And I did not have a bigmorning rise and I wasn't drawn
to need to have breakfaststraight away in the morning.
And when I did have a breakfastand break my fast, I had a
hearty breakfast of bacon andeggs.
And I haven't eaten since 10.30this morning and we're about

(14:04):
six, seven hours later and I'mnot even remotely hungry.

Graham (14:08):
And you didn't have to snack between those two times,
which means you didn't consumeany food that you'd had to buy
at the grocery store.

Stepen (14:15):
No, and in fact I didn't eat until I came back from the
gym.
I also went to the gym, fastedagain, following the guidelines
of David Asbury and others.
So it's worth noting that.
You know it's almost a medicinefor me, at least in what I've
served with my sugar, and Iavoid ultra-processed and

(14:38):
high-carb foods anyway.
But there's still instanceswhere, you know, through illness
or through stress or otherfactors, your cortisol rise and
your body when it's under stresswill release cortisol which
will cause your sugar to rise.
So it takes a little bit more toeither apply some intermittent
fasting or maybe extend it anhour or two until your sugar

(15:01):
stabilizes and then consume avery satiating meal of meat,
high quality meat and Graham, Iwas going to ask you about that
what are your thoughts onpeople's comments about meat and
defining meat in terms of thequality that you're consuming?
Yeah, do you mean specificallythe source of the meat or the

(15:36):
fact that we all quote unquotehave believed that meat is bad
for us in general.
Unless it's a high-endrestaurant, it's still an
industrial farm with lower-costmeat than what you and I can
purchase retail.
They're getting it wholesale.
But yeah, I would say pleasecomment on both of those.
I think it's important that wediscuss that.

Graham (15:56):
Yeah, I think that is a really critical point.
What I'd like to sort ofplatform that or at least apply
some basic learnings to thatwhich is in getting to this,

(16:22):
getting to the point whereyou've got to a ketogenic or a
carnivore diet, you've decidedthis is what you want to do and
you know there are going to bestages of getting there.
There's sort of going to bethis preliminary, you know idea
that maybe I need a change.
There's going to be this nextphase, which is more of a you

(16:45):
know, I'm starting to recognizethat I do need to change.
That can either be an externalforce, like a doctor in my case,
saying your blood work is goingthe wrong direction and if you
keep going down this road,you're going to be on medication
and that means you're going tobe on this medication for the
rest of your life or it could beinternal, something that you

(17:07):
know.
You look at yourself and saythat I just can't live this way
anymore.
It may be overweight, it may beirritable bowel syndrome, maybe
arthritis, it may be a numberof things that you don't even
know are related to food and youstart to do the research and
you realize maybe it is related,and so I think one of the
things that helped me in beingconfident about my decision

(17:28):
because I was, you know, Ididn't know anybody else that
was doing this you and I weredoing this at the same time, we
weren't staying in contact on adaily basis and so I didn't have
the support that I probably Icould have used from you, just
because we were doing our ownseparate things.
Every time we speak we pick uplike no time has been lost, but

(17:52):
we just hadn't spoken a whileand so, feeling like a bit of a
pioneer, and a scared pioneer,but still going to push through,
I ended up getting my own bloodwork and I've talked about this
before and over the time that Imade the changes that I made
and, like I said, I backed intothis sort of ketogenic diet

(18:16):
where I ended up going back tothat doctor 14 months later
dropped 50 pounds, felt great,felt actually 30 years younger,
could fit in clothes that Icould wear 30 years before.
Arthritis was gone, my tornrotator cuff was significantly

(18:37):
improved, no irritable bowelsyndrome Basically every health
concern I had was gone and I waspretty confident my blood work
was going to be good.
But obviously you don't knowuntil, you know, got the blood
work back and that ended upbuilding the confidence that I
needed to stand up to anybodywho was questioning my diet.

(18:57):
Because, at the end of the day,I was getting a lot of peer
pressure, a lot of familypressure, that this was the
wrong thing to do.
And I think you start torealize who your friends are in
these situations, because I hadfriends that were, you know, I'm
lucky to have a big group ofvery close friends that I've

(19:18):
known for a long time and Iinvest in those relationships
because they are criticallyimportant.
And you know, some were I wouldsay a small percentage were
very supportive and veryinterested.
A percentage were concerned andthis is a weird way of eating
and I've never heard of thisbefore, but they certainly

(19:41):
weren't judgmental about it.
And then, I would say, morefamily members were judgmental,
thinking that I'm going to killmyself because obviously, you
know saturated fat and meat arethe root of all evil and they're
going to kill everybody.
But they had done absolutely noinvestigation into the source

(20:02):
of, you know, metabolic diseaseand whether meat actually is bad
for you.
And so, having that confidenceand having that knowledge and
knowing where the informationabout saturated fat came from,
and the fact that it was notbased on any scientific

(20:23):
methodology that is worthconsideration allows you to then
stand up and say no, I actuallyfeel that I'm, you know, doing
the right thing.
It's working for me.
Everything has been reversed andyou start to see a change, and
this is what I found.
So, when it comes to thesesocial limitations, you start to

(20:43):
see a change in your friendsover a couple of years, those
friends at the beginning whowere saying that's interesting,
let me hear more about it.
All of a sudden, you know, thenext time you talk to them, they
say, yeah, I've actually made acouple of changes.
The next time you talk to them,I've made a few more changes.
The next time you talk to them,they say, well, I'm down 22
pounds.
This is fantastic, I've neverfelt better.

(21:04):
And and you know the friendsthat were a little bit concerned
, thinking this is a weird wayof eating, they take a little
longer.
But all of a sudden they'recoming back saying, yeah, I've
actually cut this out, cut thatout, and never felt better.
And so there's a bit of a, Iguess, an absolution, saying you

(21:31):
know what, maybe your way ofeating wasn't the weird way all
along and it just took somepeople some time to give it some
consideration and the fact isthey didn't have any judgment
all the way through.
The people that showed majorjudgment still haven't done
anything about it and aregetting sicker and sicker and
sicker.
And there's not much you can do.
You can't save everybody, butif you walk the walk and talk
the talk and you can actuallydemonstrate results, you know

(21:57):
over time you're going to seepeople actually turn themselves
around using you as some of theinspiration, as some of the
inspiration.

Stepen (22:06):
I'm not sure if that answered your initial question,
stephen, but I wanted to justsort of set that stage for some
of the social limitations thatI've experienced.
Yeah, I think those limitationsare valid and I think people
generally share their views ortheir viewpoint.
Because, fundamentally and Idon't want to get deep into the

(22:27):
psychology of it but a belief isnot a truth.
A belief is a conceived ideathat's formulated over time and
reinforced by judgment.
So a belief system that saysand you touched on it saturated
fats are bad and meat is bad, orconsuming a carnivore keto diet
let's call it that is bad.

(22:50):
What's interesting, mycholesterol was higher as a
vegetarian than it was as acarnivore keto, essentially
being on a carnivore keto diet.
That would surprise a lot ofpeople.
Yeah, and it's when you, whenyou start looking, peeling back

(23:10):
the onion, asking well, how canthat possibly be well when
you're consuming inflammatoryfoods?
A lot of the the grains, forinstance, that are are um, are
gmo, and you have dysbioticbacterias result in your system.
So you're not metabolizing orleveraging the hormone insulin

(23:31):
in your body effectively.
There's all these criticalknockdown effects and it's kind
of like it's like a simpleanalogy.
You can say, okay, well, whatis it that you eat then?
Well, I would put it back ontoyou and say are you paying
attention to what you're eating?
Because you think you'reconsuming a good blend of a meal

(23:51):
, because it's got meat in it,it's got protein, it's got some
vegetables, it's got some wholegrains, but that's a description
for an entire plate of nachosgraham that are 2,500 calories.
So whether the beef on it wasgrass-fed and free range is

(24:13):
likely not going to have much ofan effect.
If everything else around it ishighly ultra-processed and
included in that meal, you'll bedrawn to the lowest common
denominator.
I find it interesting thatpeople will fixate on one
specific area on their plate.
In reality, they're consumingpossibly one item on that plate

(24:33):
that could be described asreasonably healthy and
everything else is ultraprocessed.
So they come to the wrongconclusion and say well, when I
was eating meat, when I wasconsuming meat, I was on a
Lipitor or some othercholesterol drugs.
My cholesterol was high fromthe meat.
Well, was on a Lipitor or someother cholesterol drug because
my cholesterol was high from themeat?
Well, really, are you sure itwas from the meat?

(24:54):
It's possible if you wereconsuming very low quality meat
and you were consuming fast food, but it wouldn't be.
There's not too many peoplethat are walking into the fast
food restaurants and asking forjust the meat.
So there's no way really toassess, considering that you're
adding a bun and we know thatstarches turn almost immediately
for sugar into sugar.

(25:14):
I've seen it in my own CGMblood results on the very, very
rare occasions where I probablyshould have just fasted but I
ended up consuming somethingthat I probably shouldn't have.
And then next thing, you knowmy numbers are in the 15s and
the ketchup that the ketchupthat's I don't know what 40
percent sugar.
Yes, yes, exactly.
I mean, that's a great example.

(25:34):
So it doesn't matter, like ifyou're going to put, you know,
if you're going to put a platetogether and you've got to call
it an expensive, high quality,british grade steak, and then
you're, you're throwing, youknow, your, your I'm not going
to use the name here, but sayyour local typical French fries
that are found in the frozensection.

(25:55):
Those fries are full of allkinds of inflammatory seed oils
and you know, again, as a formervegetarian, you can say well,
you know, there's nothing wrongwith that, it's just potatoes.
Well, it's not the potatoesthat's the problem, it's what's
done to them when you'reconsuming them.
That then creates a problem andcauses inflammation.
So you could literally walk outof a restaurant having eaten

(26:17):
steak and say, see, I've justhad an IBS reaction.
I'm very much in touch withthat.
It's got to be that steak orit's got to be that chicken.
Well, no, it's probably becauseyour food is coming from a
restaurant that's predominantlyputting ultra-processed items on
top of it, including increasingthe amount of sodium, and

(26:37):
you've probably consumed breadwhich has elevated your sugar
and you may have had a reactionas a consequence to how high
your sugar was.
And if you're chasing it downwith beer and I'm not here to
preach against drinking alcohol,but certainly it's going to put
a load on your system, soyou're going to pile.
Let's use a nachos example and abeer again, you're going to put
all those calories in there allat once and add alcohol.

(27:00):
And if you do the research andI know you know this, graham,
you do the research the liverbecomes very occupied with the
consumption of alcohol andsingularity when it's in the
system, which means it can'tfocus on anything else.
It can't work on anything elsebecause it treats the alcohol
like a neurotoxin and so,consequently, you're not
efficiently processing that food, which means it's going to sit

(27:22):
in your system longer, whichmeans if there's bad stuff
that's in it now, you'vereintroduced more toxins that
may be harmful to your entiresystem.

Graham (27:30):
Yeah, I think, and just to touch on your previous point
about the quality of meat.
So when people think about whatwe talked about at the
beginning, is it sustainablefrom a cost perspective?
People think, well, I can't eata ribeye every single meal, so

(27:52):
you know I don't have $25 a mealto spend, and it is my opinion
that you know the cheapestground beef and the cheapest
eggs are better from a nutritionand health point of view,
better for you than almostanything in the middle of the

(28:13):
grocery store, and so you don'thave to spend a ton of money to
realize the quality improvementsfrom a ketogenic diet.
From a ketogenic diet, if thebest you can afford are all beef

(28:35):
, hot dogs and whatever eggs youcan get your hands on and
whatever ground beef you can getyour hands on.
If that's where you need tostart, that's where you should
start.
It goes back to better than um,and you know, is beef from a
regenerative farm uh, where theanimals are well uh taken care
of Um.

(28:55):
They get to uh roam the fieldsuh when the weather's
appropriate and they get to eatwhat they want and, you know,
live generally happy lives uh ona farm.
That's uh regenerating the soil.
Yes, that is the ultimate wayto go about it, and I believe
that you know finding a farmerwhether it's someone a farmer

(29:18):
that has to, you know, deliverthe stuff to you through the
mail, or whether it's a farmerthat you can go and visit some.
In some cases, that'simpossible.
You know, it's all aboutstriving for the best you can do
at the time that you can do it,and so I believe, at the end of

(29:39):
the day, getting the bestsource of beef is critical, but
it is not a game changer when itcomes to trying out this way of
eating.
I think it's something that um,people can strive to, but they
don't necessarily need to startthere.
I wanted to get into somethingthat um, I get a lot of reaction

(30:00):
about steven and I wondered ifyou do, um, when you know people
are interested in this idea ofthe ketogenic diet or the
carnivore diet, something that Iget not pushback or maybe it's
a pushback inquiry about is theketo flu, this scary, dangerous

(30:24):
thing that's going to happen toyou when you go from the
standard American diet to youknow closer to or to a ketogenic
or carnivore diet.
Talk to me about yourexperience, because you've gone
the full gamut from veganvegetarian all the way to keto
carnivore.
Tell me about your experiencewith the keto flu.

(30:47):
How did you deal with it?
How bad was it and what did itlook like on the other side?

Stepen (30:52):
Yeah, I would say the first time I ever experienced it
call it the keto flu as aconsequence of fasting actually
came as a result of the need fora colonoscopy, and that was an
interesting period.
When I turned 50, I found outit was a diabetic full diabetic

(31:13):
and then I was scheduled for anumber of tests, including a
colonoscopy, and I had to fastfor basically 24 hours.
I thought I was going to die.
I had an incredible headache, Ifelt like I had the flu and I
was just in absolutely terribleshape.
In fact, the colonoscopy was abreeze, but the preparation, as

(31:36):
many people say, that you gothrough, I mean I really
struggled because my diabeteswas a reflection of my addiction
to sugar-laden foods and so,coming off of that, my body was
in massive alarm and I had sortof forgotten about that feeling.
Thankfully, we don't have tohave them, but once every five

(31:58):
years at our present age and, Iwould highlight, I've since had
one, since being on thecarnivore diet, and I had a
clean bill of health the firsttime.
There was a couple of worrisomethings that they wanted
corrected, which includedincreasing fiber, so I
incorporated diet into my ketodiet, so I already saw the

(32:20):
benefit which is arguablydifficult to misrepresent, given
that I had made a massivechange in diet.

Graham (32:28):
And this is something that people have a huge concern
about, right Is this is going tocause major colon problems,
colon cancer.
This is what's going to destroymy life, and you found the
exact opposite.

Stepen (32:39):
Yeah, I had polyps at first you know not to get off
track and then all of a sudden Ididn't have any and you know,
and I'd I'd recommend thatpeople do their research with
respect to that.
But that's a really, reallygood point.
So, because you know now, mybody was processing what it was
consuming saturated fats muchlike we did when we were

(33:00):
children.
None of the because actually Ishould probably point out, as
we're talking about that, pleasetake a look at the foods you're
consuming and note thatanything that says light, light
fat, look at the sugar contentin those compared to the ones
that have just regular fat inthem, and you'll note that the
way that have just regular fatin them, and you'll note that

(33:21):
the way that they make a lightversion of yogurt is by adding
more sugar to it.
Cottage cheese the same thing.
Ask yourself the question whydo we need sugar in our cottage
cheese?
And clearly the answer is wedon't.
And if you look at the amountof sugar that is in some yogurts
, it's more than you'll find ina can of coke.
So it's startling how muchwe're adulterated with sugars
and that's part of the problem.
So where that flu tends to goaway is as you begin to move

(33:44):
your diet away from high starch,high carb, you will naturally
find that the the flu will gofrom a day or two of not feeling
very well and, in my particularcase and, by the way, even
though my wife is a vegetarianvegan, she practices the flu
will go from a day or two of notfeeling very well and, in my
particular case, and by the way,even though my wife is a
vegetarian vegan, she practicesintermittent fasting as well,

(34:05):
and we'll call it the 11 amqueasies.
So there'll be about a five or10 minute period literally not
more than 10 minutes where we'llstill sometimes feel a little
bit nauseous.
But I have to compare that,graham, to how I felt with IBS,
fully consuming a standardAmerican diet, being sick all
the time.
Sometimes my body wouldautomatically process the food I

(34:28):
just consumed, sometimes withinminutes after consuming it, so
I was getting a full IBSreaction.
How could that possibly behealthy?
So this keto flu, or howevermany people describe it, is very
, very short in duration and asyou continue to practice it.
We're not talking aboutprolonged fasts here.
We're talking about 24 hours orless.

(34:49):
We're just talking aboutintermittent fasting, not a
prolonged fast, prolonged fast,is a different discussion and
requires different protocolslike sodium and potassium and
other supplementation.
But just for skipping a meal,going to one meal a day or two
meals a day, as you and I havedone, I candidly can't recall
the last time that it lastedmore than five minutes.

Graham (35:10):
Yeah, I think you just made a profound point there
about comparing something likethe keto flu to having irritable
bowel syndrome.
You know having to be on somekind of GLP-1,.
You know eating suppressant ordigestive suppressant.

(35:33):
You know being potentiallyoverweight and all of the
potential health issues aroundthat the serious potential
health issues around diabetesand worrying about something
like the keto flu.
Maybe you don't have yourpriorities straight at that

(35:56):
point and maybe you don'tunderstand how to compare the
two.
I liken this a lot because Iget this question all the time
about the keto flu and this ispotentially what's stopping
somebody from giving this a try,and I think one of the
challenges is we don't know whatfeeling good feels like until

(36:23):
we feel good again.

Stepen (36:25):
And I think that's very good.
My friend.

Graham (36:28):
Yeah, I think we remember sorry, I think we know
we didn't have a care in theworld when we were in our early
20s and we could down a box ofKraft dinner and maybe another
one and go out and run amarathon or whatever.
We could just do whatever wewanted.
I think a lot of people whodecide to get into the ketogenic

(36:54):
world are well into their 30s,40s, 50s, even 60s, 70s, and so
it has been so long since we'veactually felt good that we worry
about things like the keto fluversus how we're actually
feeling today.
No-transcript.

(37:38):
And so you, you do see aninitial weight loss which has
more to do with water than itdoes, um, you know, fat, and so
with that dumping of um, of, of,uh, of of liquid, uh, or losing
a lot of water in the body,it's also going to flush a lot

(37:59):
of nutrients out of the body aswell.
So one of the things that Ialways recommend is up your
electrolytes.
Electrolytes are something thatprobably not a lot of people
even consider on the standardAmerican diet.
Electrolytes are absolutelycritical for our body to run
optimally, and so there areelectrolytes out there.

(38:21):
I recommend looking at theunflavored ones.
They don't have.
For the most part.
They don't have maltodextrin.
The flavored ones do havemaltodextrin.
That is something that you'llwant to check and see if that's
for you.
Obviously, the flavored onestaste better, but they may also
trigger your interest in othersweet things that contain sugar.

(38:41):
So the unflavored electrolytesare going to give you exactly
what you need.
You can dump those unflavoredelectrolytes into any drink you
want.
I have them first thing in themorning and then I go for a long
walk, and the keto flu for mewas probably a couple of days.
And then, getting to the otherside, I realized at that point

(39:05):
what good feels like, and Irealized, you know, a couple of
months ago I didn't realize howbad I actually felt because I
didn't have much to compare itto.
I had the day before to compareit to and that I had the day
before that to compare it to.
And every day, as you'regetting sicker and sicker and
sicker, by a small percentagepoint, you lose perspective as
to how sick you get when you hitrock bottom.

(39:28):
And, like I said, rock bottom'sdifferent for everybody,
different for everybody, and somy suggestion is don't worry
about the keto flu.
There are ways to try andreduce the impact of that keto
flu.
But if you're really interestedin experiencing what good feels

(39:50):
like, you're going to have toget through something like that,
and when you come out the otherside, I'm confident that you're
going to have to get throughsomething like that and when you
come out the other side, I'mconfident that you're going to
feel that that was well wellworth it.
Stephen, I wanted to talk to youabout variety and monotony.
So I hear this a lot.
I can't eat steak every day.
That's gross.

(40:10):
I need my variety, I need myice cream, I need this and that.
How have you overcome thischallenge of the ketogenic diet,
really reducing the amount offood that you can eat in the
store?
I know I probably eat 100things two years ago.
I probably eat 25 things today.

(40:33):
I probably eat 25 things today,so it's a huge reduction in
what I'm actually consuming.
Some people feel that that is ahill they can't overcome.
What say you?

Stepen (40:44):
Yeah, that's a really great point, and I guess my
first comment would be definefood, because a lot of times

(41:15):
when people are talking aboutvariety, what they're really
saying and you touched on icecream and other immune system
and metabolic reactions so whenyou start cutting those things
out, and if your baseline toyour earlier point is, I want to
be healthy, I want to have fullflexibility, notwithstanding,
maybe the first couple of weeksyou might have the keto flu.

(41:36):
I want to be able to go toevents and not worry about
having to figure out where apublic washroom is, because I
know I'm going to be eating foodand I'm not sure I can get home
.
There are going to be a ton ofpeople out there that resonate
with what I'm saying.
I could tell you where everywashroom was within a radius of
friends and family, on the wayto friends and family, and I

(41:56):
could tell you how many times Iabstained before I knew anything
about intermittent fasting fromeating, because I simply did
not want to risk having asituation where I could not get
to a washroom, public orotherwise.
So that's just the hardcorereality that food has caused.
So when you go to a keto dietand I'm happy to say I have not

(42:19):
had to do that for a very longtime.
And one of the interestingthings is and I know you're
feeling a little unwell rightnow if there was any kind of
stomach bug that was goingaround, I got it so clearly I
was immunocompromised.
Again, for those who are typetwo diabetics, your doctors will
tell you that we're sort ofimmune compromised.

(42:40):
It's not an immune disease Typeone is, but not type two.
It's a lifestyle disease.
So when your lifestyle iskilling you literally and
shortening your life literally,what is it that's actually doing
it?
And that is the food.
So I've come full circle backto saying that if you cut out
the junk and you eat a healthydiet and now you can enjoy

(43:00):
yourself in social settings andnot worry about all the things I
just listed, isn't that abetter quality of life?
Because, graham, I had a pointwhere I could not and this was
around the COVID period, wherepeople weren't traveling anyway
I could not go out, and the onlytime I did go out was late at
night when the grocery store inour small town was open, because

(43:22):
I didn't want to run into otherpeople for health reasons,
because I was concerned I wasgoing to catch everything and I
didn't want to be around a tonof people and I certainly didn't
want to be out and needingaccess to a washroom where I
might not find one that wasavailable, especially during
COVID.
So that's a hard reality ofwhat my life was like.

(43:43):
So back to your comment aboutnot enough variety.
Again, I'll give you a perfectexample.
You can go and get an Instapotand find 2 million recipes
online and there's probably, Iwould estimate, 300,000 of them
have meat in them.
So it's a question ofimagination and if you use your

(44:04):
imagination and look atdifferent ways, then you're
going to find alternatives.
And I think to your earlierpoint you already touched on
that is the way that you dealtwith that in the past was to go
to a restaurant with your wifethree, four times a month.
You can save the cost of thatand possible risk to your system
and having setbacks by eatingeating from home.
I'm not saying don't ever go toa restaurant it was that one on

(44:26):
sunday but what I am saying isit's find the ones that suit you
.
That, uh, provides you accessto some variety for what it is
you eat, whether you're a ketocarnivore or, like me, a hybrid
where I do both.

Graham (44:41):
Yeah, I think you bring up a really, really important
point is there's no easy fixwhen it comes to our health, and
one of the things that I'vefound is you know, people used
to say, hey, you're good atputting a meal together, and

(45:01):
what I tell them is I'm actuallypretty good at just reading
instructions and hitting thebutton on the oven because the
food came in a box or whatever.
It came in a can and I can warmit up.
I was really good at warmingstuff up.
That was about the extent of mycooking expertise.
I have become a much bettercook because I forced myself to

(45:25):
learn how to do it and itactually turned out to be really
mindful, turned out to be fun,turned out to be something that
I enjoy with my wife.
Sometimes I'll cook for her,sometimes she'll cook for me,
sometimes we'll cook together.
We just, you know, when I knowshe needs a break, she's had a
long day, or vice versa, or wejust want to hang out together
and have a chat and and makesomething together.

(45:47):
We just make it fun and, yes,it helps that we're eating the
same thing, but that doesn't inyour case.
You.
You've shown that that isn't arequirement either, and I think
there are no easy fixes when itcomes to this.
And so if today you are, thefood that you're eating comes
from a box and it has the, youknow, beautiful looking label on

(46:12):
the front that makes you feelgood about what you're eating
looking label on the front thatmakes you feel good about what
you're eating.
But if you, you know, learn howto read the ingredients and you
look on the back and yourealize, oh my God, I can't
believe I've been eating thisfor this long.
And you put that back on theshelf.
You're going to have to picksomething up and maybe cook it
from scratch, and that is goingto take longer.
But you know that's aninvestment in your health, and I

(46:36):
think that's an investment inyour health, that's an
investment in your family.
And you know the variety offood, or this fear of monotony I
think a lot of it comes from,maybe, a place of laziness, and
I don't mean that in a bad way,because I've gone through it as

(46:57):
well.
I don't mean that in ajudgmental way.
I remember, you know, looking atthe ingredients of a spaghetti
that we were making because myfamily was, you know, a couple
of months behind me, and sothey'd make something and I'd
read the ingredients and Ididn't want that and I'd make my
own thing.
They've come a long way since,and so that isn't something that

(47:20):
we have to deal with as much.
And one day I decided you knowwhat?
I'm going to make a spaghettifor you guys, because what they
were eating was North Americanpasta that has glyphosates in it
.
I couldn't recognize threequarters of the ingredients in
the pasta sauce that came in ajar.
We were using the greenParmesan cheese that you buy in

(47:47):
the middle of the grocery store.
I don't think I could findanything that actually reminded
me that it was cheese in theingredient list, but of course
it, you know, said it was cheeseon the front, so it must be
cheese.
And so one day I decided youknow what I'm going to try this?
I'm going to go and I'm goingto buy some pasta that was made

(48:11):
in Italy.
They don't have glyphosatesthere.
The pasta was $1 more for apackage.
I ended up buying some pastasauce In my case it was rails,
but there's a few choices outthere because I could understand
every single ingredient in thatpasta sauce.
I then bought some, uh, fattyground beef, uh, and that I it

(48:37):
was from a farmer.
I knew exactly where it camefrom.
I could see the cows.
They were free range,regenerative farm.
They were treated well.
Uh, the the farmer was afantastic individual, had a
fantastic family and I was veryhappy that my money was going to
him.
And then I, I got some bonebroth.
Uh, because broth?
Because my kids are, you know,in varying stages of eating

(49:01):
nutrition.
But you know they are moretowards the standard American
diet and I know that wasaffecting them, and so I put
this together.
I also ended up buying someEuropean Parmesan cheese,
because they don't pasteurizethe cheese there and that can
help with, you know, promotingthe right kind of gut biomes.

(49:26):
And so I put all of thistogether.
You know, freshly groundParmesan on top the bone broth
was hidden.
They didn't even know it was inthere.
And they all, at the end of themeal, said that is the best
spaghetti I've ever had in mylife.
And yeah, it took more effort,not a lot of effort.
I was still opening a packageof pasta and boiling it.

(49:48):
I was still opening a jar ofpasta sauce.
So not a lot of effort of pastasauce.
So not a lot of effort, but Iwas just finding better sources
of that food.
Was it more expensive?
Sure, it was a couple of bucksmore expensive per person in the
family, but we've never goneback since, and now we have a

(50:09):
staple in the family.
Yes, pasta is not carnivore,it's, you know.
You could argue it's not evenketo, but I wasn't going to get
my family all the way to thatside, and nor am I going to pull
them that way.
I'm just going to show themwhat good looks like, and if
they want to come along, theycan, and they decided that was
the best pasta they've ever had.
And now they want me to make itwhen friends come over, at

(50:30):
family events, that kind ofthing, and so you can actually
have fun with this, and I thinkvariety or lack of monotony is
something that you just have towork hard for, but at the end of
the day, it is achievable.
Go ahead, stephen.

Stepen (50:45):
Yeah, I was just going to say.
I mean, you raised a few goodpoints.
I would say that there's also abenefit to preparing your own
food that way.
I was the kind of guy I grew upin a traditional family where,
you know, mom prepared all ourmeals and that was part of her
love language, it's part of howshe communicated.
So I've always had a soft spotfor, you know, my partner

(51:09):
preparing meals and doing thatsort of thing.
But what I discovered in thecourse of my wife continuing
down the path of vegetarian, Istarted to.
We initially, we actuallyinitially tried a number of
these organizations that willbasically provide a meal in a
box and it's all fresh, and Iwon't name any of the names of

(51:32):
them, but I think most peopleknow what I'm talking about and
they were pretty good for awhile because there was lots of
variety and so forth.
But then we started to noticethat a number of the meals
didn't actually appeal to us.
So now you've got this outlay,this cost, and you're still
putting it together.
Sure, it's not the same asgoing to your local farmer, as

(51:55):
you said, or going to to youryour local grocer and and
picking out the items andshowing a little bit of
creativity and, as you said, youcan have somewhat fun with it,
even if you're doing it byyourself.
There's there's an interestingperspective that we touched on
in a previous podcast aboutemoto.
That's e-m-o-t-o, and he wasthe pioneer behind understanding
how not going to woo, but howpeople's emotions could be

(52:19):
imprinted on water, and theywere able to show that by flash
freezing the water.
And you may say well, you know,what does that have to do with
what we're talking about?
The vast majority, whether it'smeat or vegetables that you're
consuming, has water in it.
So I think one of the importantthings that we've missed over
the years or the decadescertainly from the way I was
brought up as a young child,still with my grandparents
coming from the old country isthat when they prepared their

(52:42):
own bread and what's interesting, in contrast to the bread we
get today, is, you know, whenyou go to the back of your
fridge and find a loaf of bread,it's like a treasure hunt.
It's been there for three weeksand it looks just perfectly
fine, like it did on the shelf.
That's not a good thing.
When we were eating unprocessedbreads, that stuff would go bad
in three days.

(53:02):
You would have a small plantgrowing on it because they
didn't have all thepreservatives in the food.
So this is just our reality now.
The reality is that we're noteating the same way, we're not
cooking as much, and you know, Iwas a single father for a long
time, so I can hear the peopleout there going listen, you guys
have missed an important thing.

(53:23):
I'm way too busy to come homeand prepare a big meal.
Well, I got this to say to youthis morning.
I had eggs and bacon.
It took I timed it for this forthis podcast.
It took me just under sevenminutes to prepare very thinly
sliced bacon and three eggs andI finished them in under five
minutes.
So I had a 12-minute lunch.

Graham (53:47):
Amazing.
It's so interesting around thelead-in from ketogenic diets to
our sort of day-to-day you'vetalked about this.
You know knowing where everywashroom is along the way

(54:08):
there's a lot of people that canrelate to these things even in
your own building knowing wherethe washroom is at work or
whatever.
Or you know being happy to beat home because your washroom is
not only your own but it's veryclose by and it's private.
Stephen, you're a very physicalguy.

(54:29):
You're at the gym all the time.
What have you found in yourjourney around basically
eliminating carbs for the mostpart and people's concern around
?
Listen, I'm physically active.
I can't afford to give up carbs.
It's going to ruin my trainingregimen.

(54:52):
How have you found thatchanging, like I said, from a
variety of different ways ofeating has affected your ability
to be physically active?

Stepen (55:05):
Yeah, it's a great point and a very good question.
I think it depends mostly onthe type of food you're
consuming, the quality of foodyou're consuming and the type of
exercise you are doing.
So I'm doing a combination oflow impact.
I live in a small town withaccess to trails on my property,

(55:26):
so walking the dogs is lowimpact.
I don't need a lot of carbs forthat kind of an activity.
Same with the gym.
I'm more interested in theprotein and if I am consuming
carbs, they're going to be carbsthat are associated with
saturated fats, like, forinstance, greek yogurt and what
have you.
And I provide that sort of as abaseline.

(55:47):
And today, just as a matter offact, you know, here I am
encroaching on my 58th birthdayand I just bench press the same
weight that I used to benchpress in college, which was just
under 225 pounds.
So there's and it's fair to askyou know, were you able to do
that when you're a vegetarian?
I was quite a bit more sickwith my diabetes, so I don't

(56:08):
think it's a fair comparison andI want to suggest you can't
lift weights and still be strongas a vegetarian, because I
believe it's worth checking.
But I believe one of thestrongest men in the world is a
pure vegetarian.
You know, gorillas are veganand they're the strongest land
animals on the planet, and soforth, and our anatomy is pretty

(56:30):
close to theirs.
But, all that being said, I'vehad no negative effects.
Now, if you're going to and I goback to Dr Berg and David
Asbury again for this if you'redoing marathons, you do need
carbs and you will need carbs.
And if you're doing a prolongedfast, you're going to need
probably some professionalassistance, whether it's a

(56:53):
medical doctor or a naturopath,and I would make sure my medical
doctor was more trained innutrition than both you and I
are in terms of what we know andwhat we understand.
But you definitely need to keepan eye on your sodium, your
potassium, when you're doingextended fast, because what
you're doing when you're doing afast, you're putting the body
under stress and then you layeron top doing a marathon.
It's not very wise to go outand run a marathon on an

(57:18):
extremely low carb diet at thatpoint, because you need those
carbs, you need to be able toprocess them.
But we're talking about peoplethat will burn, you know, four
or five, 10,000 calories a day,and that's not most of us.
The same applies, I think, towomen, whether pre-menopause or
post-menopause.
It's worth doing the researchto find out what their body does

(57:38):
and then monitor it accordingly, because some women certainly
if you're pregnant, you know Iwouldn't recommend any kind of
intermittent fasting, but thefasting process itself and then
going to the gym and then eatingwithin 30 minutes causes your
T-MOR.
It's capital.
T-m-o-r causes it to absolutelyballoon, and that's one of the

(58:00):
elements that helps increasemuscle mass, and muscle mass is
created from proteins.
So the combination of the righttime, the timing of what you
eat, stacking which is a biohackwhere you eat Perhaps if you're
on keto, you would eatsomething that is perhaps like a

(58:21):
salad.
It will coat your stomach andreduce the absorption or slow
the rate of sugar absorbed intothe bloodstream, so you don't
get the sugar spikes All ofthose things help remarkably
when it comes to the gym,because if you're in a sugar
spike, what does that mean?
Is you're going to be in a sugar, your sugar is going to drop

(58:42):
rapidly, and if you're in thegym working out and your sugar
drops dramatically, it can evenbe dangerous.
So these are things,particularly if you're a
diabetic and if you're takingany kind of drugs like metformin
.
Those are things that you needto monitor, and I was for a time
on metformin.
I had huge digestive issueswith it, so I got off it, but I
definitely could not performvery well in the gym at all on

(59:04):
that drug, and so my belief isfrom my own experience is
there's nothing wrong withfasting before a meal if it's
weight training or or just goingfor a light walk.
But if you're doing an extendedfast, you should probably stay
to just a walk and not do theheavy weight training, because
it's just putting more stress inyour body.

Graham (59:21):
That's probably not required heavy weight training
because it's just putting morestress in your body that's
probably not required.
Yeah, really well said.
And I'll take the other side ofthat, which is my experience
around.
Let's call it two years ago,sitting on the couch wanting to
go for a walk with the dog, andjust struggling to get off the
couch and get the boots on andthe winter jacket or whatever,

(59:45):
depending on what season it is,and as I reduced the carbs and
the junk food and increased theprotein and the fats, I just had
more energy and so I went from.
And so I went from strugglingto do a couple of walks with the
dog a week to getting up everyday with the dog, to multiple

(01:00:14):
times a day with the dog, to,you know, three or four, three
kilometer walks a day, andsometimes the dog would just
look at me like, are you crazy?
I'm not going to gain, and thedog would stay home and I'd go
out and and I'd use that time tolisten to podcasts or listen to

(01:00:36):
books.
Um, you know, sometimes it wasnon-food related, but a lot of
times it was food related,because I wanted to do some
studying while I was walking andit allowed me to kind of, you
know, get into this mindfulexercise, enjoy my surroundings,
but at the same time, I'mlearning something, and so, for

(01:00:58):
the vast majority of people youknow, the vast majority of
people are not running marathons.
The vast majority of peoplehave aches and pains, especially
as they get into their 40s, 50s, 60s.
They have aches and pains thatstop them from any sort of
physical exercise.
Getting into a ketogenic dietcan potentially relieve those

(01:01:18):
symptoms, and it's the only wayyou're going to find out whether
it works for you is to try it.
It worked for me and it's goingto potentially give you more
energy.
And at some point you're goingto want to information that was
actually allowing me to makemore and more improvements to.

(01:01:47):
You know my journey and so mytake on physical activity as it
relates to the ketogenic diet isit's going to have a materially
beneficial impact.
Again, my experience on yourability to be physically active

(01:02:08):
and if being physically activejust means getting out and doing
a few thousand steps a day inaddition, or getting a few
thousand steps a day whereyou're not getting any today, is
a significant improvement andis going to have a potentially a

(01:02:29):
significant impact on your long.
That's one thing we should talkabout about keto.

Stepen (01:02:46):
I mean I'd recommend that you again look at Dr Fung's
work.
The nephrologist from TorontoCanada that pioneered
intermittent fasting and hadpatients who were very, very
sick on dialysis applyintermittent fasting and they
had to go through, I'm sure, anasty keto flu because they had
other contributing symptoms thatwould have made their lives

(01:03:08):
miserable and that was one ofthe only ways that he could
prevent them from even worseoutcomes was applying
intermittent fasting.
So if it can work for a reallysick person that needs dialysis
and is waiting for a kidneytransplant, imagine what it can
do for you.

Graham (01:03:31):
Yeah, 100%.
Well said.
Thank you, Stephen.
I think we've covered a lottoday on whether the carnivore
or ketogenic diet is sustainable.
Did we miss anything, Stephen?

Stepen (01:03:36):
No, I think we covered all the bases for sure.
I think it's probably thegeneral questions that people
are asking Is it too expensive?
Is there any nutrientdeficiency?
We already highlighted the factthat I was low in B12 and
magnesium when I was on avegetarian diet, and I should
just mention too, thesupplements I was taking
certainly included B12 andmagnesium, but I wasn't

(01:03:57):
absorbing it, so absorption isdefinitely a factor and I would
highlight that, like you said,this is the individualized
health care it's not generalizedhealth care that you and I
applied.
We both did the research, we gotthe blood tests and we focused
on what our bodies needed notwhat Jerry's and Mike's and
Tony's and Sally's needed, butwhat our bodies needed.

(01:04:18):
As it turned out, you and Ialigned and came to the same
conclusions, as you said,independently, and got great
results.
I don't worry about wherepublic washrooms are anymore,
you're not worried about thebiomarkers in your blood tests
anymore and we're both at a veryhealthy weight.
We exercise, we have lots ofenergy and the minor
inconvenience of the occasionalketo flu the fact that you know

(01:04:42):
the costs at the grocery storeare going up anyway don't
compare to the quality, at leastfor me.
The quality of my life was whenI was really sick.

Graham (01:04:51):
Yeah, I think that's a perfect place to end the podcast
.
On that note.
Thank you, stephen, as always,and thanks everybody for joining
us for this episode of Lessonsfrom the Keto-Verse.
Is the ketogenic dietsustainable?
We'll see you next time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Thanks for tuning into Lessons from the Keto-Verse
.
Join Stephen and Graham nexttime for more keto tips and
stories to fuel your health.
Subscribe, share and let's keepthe keto vibes going.