Part 1: Navigating Roadblocks on Your Keto and Carnivore Journey

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Lessons from the Keto-Verse.
Join Stephen and Graham as theyexplore the keto lifestyle with
tips, science and stories toboost your health.
This podcast isn't medicaladvice.
Consult your healthcare advisorfor any health-related issues.
Get ready to fuel your primalpower.

Graham (00:18):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
Lessons from the Keto-Verse.
Today we are talking about thebiggest roadblocks someone might
face in adopting a keto orcarnivore eating lifestyle.
So what are some of the thingsthat you may face, are likely to
face, and we've got someconversation around how you

(00:42):
might overcome those obstacles,because we have all been there
and it is a perfectly normalpart of changing your eating
lifestyle.
Stephen, welcome and say hello.

Stephen (00:55):
Hello everyone.
Good to see everyone outlistening to our podcast this
evening.
We've got some reallyinteresting items to speak about
around roadblocks that we faceas you're adopting the keto and
carnivore eating lifestyle.

Graham (01:11):
All right, perfect.
So let's start off with numberone, and this one is something
that I expected, something I'dheard from other people people
that I know that had gonethrough this and you know, let's
call them influencers that talkabout this and that is the flu
symptoms.
Some people call it keto flu.

(01:32):
So these flu symptoms that youmight experience during the
initial transition that caninclude things like fatigue and
headaches and irritability,flu-like symptoms as the body
adapts from burning glucose,from carbs, to burning fat and

(01:53):
being in a state of ketosisinstead of those carbs.
So one of the things that werecommend or at least I
recommend as trying to mitigatethis roadblock, because it is
likely to happen and what'shappening here.
There's a couple of things.

(02:14):
When your body is used to a lotof carbs and storing that carbs,
that turns into glucose gettingthat glucose into glucose, into
getting that glucose into cellsis you're also holding a lot of
water People talk about in thefirst couple of weeks of going
to a keto or carnivore diet,they lose a lot of weight.

(02:34):
A lot of the time, that weightis actually water.
It's your body saying, okay, Idon't need to hold onto this
anymore.
One of the things that alsohappens when your body's
flushing that water out, and itcan go out in all sorts of
different places.
I don't want to make it soundawful.
It's not that awful, but it ispart of the process.
One of the things that canhappen is you can also flush out

(02:57):
electrolytes that are veryimportant to the body.
When those electrolytes getflushed out from the body,
saying I guess we don't need tohold on to this unnecessary
water anymore, thoseelectrolytes can be flushed out.
At the same time, we recommendrestoring those electrolytes and

(03:20):
there's a lot of differentbrands out there.
There are ones with some kindof sweetener added to it and
there are also plain ones.
It's obviously up to you whichyou choose the sweetener ones
that may trigger people to wantto eat other sweet things.

(03:42):
So for those people who areworried about that, we recommend
going and looking for anon-sweetened, you know good
brand of electrolytes to be ableto restore those electrolytes
back in the body.
That's only going to happen fora couple of weeks, maybe one or
two or three weeks.
You can also get those throughbone broth.

(04:05):
A nice warm bone broth canreplace a tea and give your body
a lot of those good nutrients.
So, stephen, I want to hearyour experience in going through
, if you went through, this ketoflu at the beginning of your
new eating lifestyle.
Yeah, thank you.

Stephen (04:23):
I certainly did.
I recall the keto, the two-weekketo flu, keto-like flu that
affected me and made it verydifficult for me, in particular
because I already had IBS.
So all of the other symptomsthat go with it were just
exacerbated.
So were it constipation ordiarrhea?
It was just a factor or twothat much more severe.

(04:44):
So that can be discouraging forsomeone that's in a situation
like I was in, and I would saystick with it because really I
mean you touched on it.
Really what's happening is yourbody's moving away from let's
call it your addiction toglucose and feeling your body
that way, to moving towardsconsuming fat and processing the
fat that's in your system andthen shifting to ketosis, which

(05:06):
is a very, very efficient burn.
And I can tell you, when I wasat peak with my diabetes, these
symptoms would show up when Iexercise, when I tried to do
something, I would actually getflu symptoms, not from actually
fasting and not from switchingto keto carnivore, but because
my sugar would drop so radicallyfrom, say, cutting wood, which

(05:30):
I cut and collect my own wood,and I wouldn't be able to last
very long.
It'd be 90 minutes tops.
But yet when the body got usedto this and I was well past the
flu systems and used to being ina state of ketogenesis.
I could go out all day as longas I had water and I didn't feel
the need to even eat because mybody was actually consuming

(05:52):
that lunchbox that was around mybelly, instead of the one that
used to be full of starches andsugars and everything else.

Graham (06:00):
Yeah, and one thing that I should also mention is one of
the ways that people get aroundthis keto flu, or at least try
and reduce the symptoms, is toreduce the carbs in a day.
I'm just making up this number.
You may want to reduce thecarbs in the first week by 20%

(06:34):
and then reduce it a further 20%the second week and a further
20% the third week.
By the fifth week, you've allbut eliminated the carbs.
You can decide.
You know what your carb levelis going to be.
Keto is generally somewherebetween 30 and 50 milligrams of
carbs.
Carnivore is generally zerocarbs, and so reducing that carb

(06:56):
intake over time is another wayto get around some of those
flu-like symptoms.
But you're likely to experiencethem For the most part.
For most people, they do goaway and it's actually not as
bad as you think, and coming outon the other side, you start to
feel pretty amazing after goingthrough that process.

(07:16):
So we recommend sticking withit and if you need to do that
gradually over time, that'scertainly something that can be
a good strategy for some.
Stephen, what was on your list?

Stephen (07:28):
The next one I'd like to speak about we sort of almost
touched on and that's thedigestive issues.
And this can linger beyond justthe keto flu because, again to
your point, you're adjustingyour carbs down and that
adjustment period, due to lackof fiber from plants, can
sometimes lead to eitherconstipation, in my case, is

(07:48):
more likely going to lead todiarrhea and bloating, certainly
gas, and make you justgenerally feel uncomfortable.
I mean that's you know,candidly, that's because you're
changing your diet.
It's no different, like forthose of you who are
globetrotters out there.
You know, anytime you go to anew country there's's an
adjustment period.
There's, you know, differentthings that are in the foods
that you're used to spices, itcould be even just the tiny

(08:11):
bacteria that's in there.
That's not something that you'reused to.
So it's that same kind ofadjustment and, of course, in
the luxury of your own home andwhen you're adjusting your diet,
which I want to mention, it'sprobably not a horrible idea in
terms of recommendations also tonot eat in restaurants because
you can get cross contamination.

(08:32):
You could be accumulating carbswithout realizing it and some
of the foods, particularly likeFrench fries and things like
that, are highly inflammatorybecause they're done in
vegetable oils.
So you want to take care ofyourself in a way where you can
establish kind of boundaries ofwhat's acceptable, and the best
way to do that is manage ityourself and if you can I know

(08:54):
it's difficult for those who aretraveling but even if you can
and I've spent upwards to a yearat a time away from home for
work and where you know I've hada kitchenette and cooked for
myself so you have to be alittle bit more proactive and
probably stay away from thingsthat will have hidden sugars
that will just make that ketofluid we talked about and your

(09:15):
digestive issues, not somethingyou can overcome in a week or
two, but something that'lllinger for weeks because you're
still in that cycle of addictionor sugar.
How about yourself?
What do you think about that?

Graham (09:29):
Yeah, so this is something that I experienced as
well, and there's in addition towhat Stephen talked about.
There is a process going onwhen you're switching from call
it a primarily carb or glucosereliance for energy over to
saturated fat from you know,whether it's avocado or butter

(09:54):
or eggs, or, you know, a ribeyesteak lots of ways, coconut oil
you can get saturated fat from alot of really good sources.
There's something called bile.
Your bile is primarily a fluidproduced by the liver, and that
bile aids in the digestion ofsaturated fat.

(10:17):
So it is used to break down thefats to be able to be used by
the body, and so the liversecretes the bile and then flows
to the gallbladder and thegallbladder then says okay,
we've got some saturated fatthat we need to break down and
get all of the goodness from it.
We're going to match the bileto the amount of fat that you've

(10:40):
eaten.
So let's say you've had someeggs and avocado and a really
nice steak.
Your body is going to use theamount of saturated fat that it
needs and it's going to meetthat with the bile in order to
break that down.
Once the body says you knowwhat, I'm good, I've got all the

(11:02):
saturated fat that I need therest of the saturated fat.
Let's say you ate more than youneeded.
Of course, how are you going toknow early on in the process?
Your body says, okay, we don'tneed the rest of the saturated
fat, and out goes the other end.
In my opinion, there's nohealth downside to that that's

(11:22):
my opinion.
Downside to that, that's myopinion the body is simply
saying I've been able to use theamount of saturated fat.
I've matched that with the bileto break it down, to give the
body all the goodness that itneeds.
The rest of it is going to goout.
The other end that can alsocontribute to things like
diarrhea.
Perfectly normal If you'refinding and I've had this advice

(11:47):
from people early on if you'refinding that your stools are too
solid up your fat saturated fat, if you're finding that your
stools are too runny, trydecreasing the amount of
saturated fat and hopefully youcan get into that equilibrium
where your body is getting justabout the right amount of

(12:07):
saturated fat, where it can meetthat need using bile and you're
not having too much of theremainder going at the other end
.
So sorry to be too graphic, butthere's a little bit of advice
on how to avoid things likediarrhea, which may actually be
caused by getting a little moresaturated fat than you need.

(12:28):
So let's talk about the next oneon our list nutrient
deficiencies.
And you know you've heardStephen and I talk on a number
of occasions on how, if you eata ketogenic or a carnivore diet,
that you're going to get all ofthe nutrients that you need.

(12:49):
One of the things that I didearly on when I was going
through this process and theprocess took a number, let's
call it six to nine months whereI was constantly adjusting what
I was eating, as I was learningwhat was good for me and what
was not good for me, as well aswhat's working and not working
in my own personal scenario, andI was tracking the foods every

(13:13):
single day and taking a look atwhether I was short in any
things like vitamins or minerals, and so where I would find if I
, if I was short in any of thosescenarios, I would add certain
things back.
I tried to get those uhvitamins and minerals from whole

(13:33):
foods.
So I would, you know, see thatI was low on calcium, for
example.
I would eat a little bit ofcheese, um, to up my calcium
level, and you can do that withany.
You know scenarios that you'regoing through If you're low in
vitamin C.
Stephen has some great advice onum, getting that through uh, a
drink that he makes in themorning.
Hopefully you can talk aboutthat, stephen, and um, you can

(13:57):
get that through other things.
You can add back some fruitsand vegetables and and and
relatively tiny amounts just toget the right amount of vitamins
and minerals that you need.
So I recommend using somethinglike MyFitnessPal.
There's a number of foodtracking apps out there.
I know it sounds like a lot ofwork.
Once you've done it for acouple of days, it doesn't feel

(14:21):
like a huge chore.
But what you get over time isthis historical glance at
whether you are giving your bodyeverything that it needs to
operate at the optimal level.
And if you get there over time,you're going to hopefully find
that your blood work, yourenergy, how you feel about

(14:41):
yourself, the confidence thatyou're going down the right path
, increases significantly.
Stephen, your thoughts onnutrient deficiencies.

Stephen (14:49):
Well, candidly, I've been under the care for years
with a naturopath and, as I'vetalked about in the past, when I
was a vegetarian, I'm prettyconfident that I was supporting
the quarterly earnings for anumber of dietary supplement
companies across North Americabecause they consume so many of
them.
I recall my mother at one pointsaying how many do you actually

(15:12):
take?
And I never actually counted,and one day I did and it was 38.
I sent the list to mynaturopath and she said you know
, you're taking way too manysupplements.
You've got very expensive pee,and so I had to reel that in a
little bit.
And what was interesting is itconverted back to a keto
carnivore diet and had bloodwork done.
I went down to just two, andone of them was magnesium and

(15:37):
the other one for me was zinc,because that has some suggested
benefits.
There is some researchsupporting that that will help
normalize sugar.
So a lot of the things thatI'll take like, for instance,
you were talking about my drinksthere's one I do in the evening
with Ceylon, cinnamon and chiaseeds because I'm more keto than
carnivore.
I allow it to float for about10 minutes and it gets really

(16:01):
big.
It starts to look like fisheggs and you consume that and
it'll help big.
It starts to look like fisheggs and uh, and you consume
that and it'll help reduce theand I see it again on my cgm.
It'll help reduce any potentialspikes that sometimes will
happen, um, leading to the dawnphenomena when it naturally
rises.
It helps with my biorhythmsagain.
Uh, since we last did our last,uh, our last podcast, I'm still

(16:23):
getting flatlined from doingthat.
And then in the mornings, as apreventative measure for me in
particular, because it's prettycommon with diabetics is to
avoid getting kidney stones.
So what I do is I put freshlemon in water.
Sometimes I use lime.
If I carbonate water with asoda stream, I'll add lemon

(16:46):
juice, which, unfortunately, ispasteurized.
It's not nearly as potent, it'sfreshly squeezed, but I put
enough in there for flavor.
That helped for those who areout there that are addicted to
sodas, or pop as we call it inCanada.
That's another way to do ithave the fizziness but put some
natural water in there and it'sactually helping your liver with

(17:06):
the lemon.
There's lots of good researchsuggesting that.
So the net effect is I amgetting my biotin, my folate, my
vitamin C.
I am having and consuming myyogurt to increase my fat.
I am using different chia seedsand other small seeds in there
that will help with fermentationprocess and to with my

(17:28):
digestion.
And I know, for somebody whohas ibs, usually it's diarrhea,
it's rarely constipation, uh.
So, uh, like for me I'm, youknow, like I say I'm now.
Uh, I was once pinocchio when Iwas a vegetarian.
I'm now a regular boy thatemphasis on the regular because
my body's got into anequilibrium.

(17:50):
I've had my microbiome studied,I've had my blood work done to
look for nutrient deficienciesand I was very low in vitamin B
when I was a vegetarian.
I had to have an IV done toboost my B levels and I don't
have to do that anymore.

Graham (18:08):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up For those that
are interested.
My staples for vitamins are D3.
Even though I do get a lot inthe summer, I double what I take
in the winter winter justbecause you can't get as much
from the sun in the winter.
Where we live, if you're in thesouthern parts near the equator

(18:31):
, you can probably get the rightamount of vitamin D3 all year
round and that's a fairly easything to check with your doctor
through blood results.
But I take vitamin D3.
I also take vitamin K2 andvitamin A.
The thing about I also takemagnesium glycinate, especially

(18:54):
an hour before I want to go tobed.
I found you know very recentlythat I find it much easier to
fall asleep quicker if I takemagnesium glycinate about an
hour before I'm ready to go tobed.
It's working for me, so I'mgoing to keep trying it.
But the importance with vitaminD3, dr Berg has some great

(19:16):
videos on this YouTube videos oreven his podcast that's B-E-R-G
.
He constantly talks about theimportance of vitamin D3.
The reason why vitamin K2 iscritically important is it
navigates the vitamin D3 intothe bones, which can actually

(19:37):
replenish and keep those boneshealthy.
So the vitamin D3 relies on theK2 in order to do that.
One important thing is theseare they require fats in order
to be activated, so you do needto make sure that you're getting
the most healthy for you.

(19:58):
Those saturated fats are alsoneeded in order to activate the
vitamin D3 and K2.
So for somebody that's notgetting enough saturated fat,
those vitamin D3 supplements andor the K2 supplements may not
actually be doing what you wantthem to be doing and therefore

(20:21):
you've got expensive P, asStephen so eloquently put it.
If you're getting enoughsaturated fat along with vitamin
D3 and K2, you may find thatyour bones are healthy over time
.
Stephen, next on your list.

Stephen (20:36):
Actually, before we move to those, I just wanted to
pick up on a couple of thingsthat you had said.
So you mentioned magnesium forsleep and it's funny I haven't
been taking it and I've beensuffering from some insomnia.
So that's definitely a one.
And for those of those outthere like me that are dealing
with mental issues like PTSD andwhen you're under stress and if

(20:58):
your cortisol levels are high,my doctor at the time my
naturopathic doctor hadrecommended ashwagandha and it
works just fine for me.
And there's another root extractcalled valerian that works
quite well, but I am in that 16%that gets wicked nightmares on

(21:22):
valerian, so I'll only use itduring the day.
If I think that for some reasonI'm getting amped up from my
environment, then I'll use that,and that's really helpful,
because the problem with thecortisol is when the cortisol
goes up, anything you'reconsuming at that point is just
going to get turned to fat.
It's like it becomes asecondary task for the body.

(21:42):
At that point, what's not goingto digest properly or or, worst
case scenario, you'll get anIBS reaction and you won't get
any nutritional value from whatyou just consumed, no matter how
wonderful it was.
It'll just go right through you, as those that have IBS know.

Graham (21:57):
And I, yeah, thank you for that, stephen.
I should also mention thereason I mentioned magnesium
glycinate specifically for me.
There are a number of versionsof magnesium.
I highly recommend doing someresearch on those different
versions and what each one ofthose different versions does.

(22:18):
So the reason I mentionedmagnesium glycinate specifically
is it seems to be the best forme for, um, helping with sleep.
I also, uh, take one in themorning, um, just to get me
ready for the day, and I foundthat that has helped a little
bit.
So generally, I'm, you know,three to four supplements, and

(22:42):
if I miss them for a couple ofdays I don't feel it much.
I just find that that's areally nice equilibrium for me
to keep going.
And so, to your point, peoplecan be on an excessive number of
supplements and that can getvery, very expensive without
necessarily the benefits inreturn.

(23:02):
So on your list even, yeah, forsure.

Stephen (23:06):
Thanks very much for passing it back over to me.
I'll go to the next one, whichis really around the high cost
of quality meat and sourcinggrass fed or organic animal
products can be expensive.
We both know that, especiallyfor larger households.
You know we're both emptynesters at this point, so it's a

(23:27):
little bit different for us butit's still like everything is
expensive.
I mean, I just noticed the otherday organic peanut butter went
from $8.99 to $13.99.
And I don't know if it wasbecause we just had a long
weekend and I live in cottagecountry, but I was shocked like
that's a 40 or 50% increase inthe price of organic peanut

(23:47):
butter.
And that's not even meat.
So I don't purchase my meat atthe grocery store.
I go to the butcher.
I haven't been there or neededto because I've stocked up
recently.
But yeah, I mean there's thetrend for anything that you're
purchasing is going to be higher.
But what's interesting is whenyou look at your overall grocery
bill and there's been somegreat shows I've seen on

(24:09):
television where people wereoverweight and they went through
their house and 95% of whatthey were consuming, or greater,
was ultra processed, clearlynot good for you.
So you could argue that you'reburning.
From a health perspective,you're burning your money in the
parking lot would probably be ahealthier alternative.
So you cut that out and all ofa sudden in your budget you have

(24:30):
more money available toactually eat.
Well, and when you're satiatedand you've had a good meal like
I had from the butcher today.
They call them, ironically,chicken eggs and they're not
chicken eggs.
What it is is a chicken breastand the inside has ricotta
cheese and it was wrapped inbacon and it had a jalapeno.

(24:52):
I was centered out and had ajalapeno pepper that was stuffed
with ricotta in the center andit was absolutely fantastic.
I didn't even need to put anyseasoning on it.
I could just the smell of itgoing through my kitchen tonight
I was like, oh man, I can't,you know, I can't wait to
consume that.
Tell me, you feel that way 20minutes after you you've hit
your local pizza joint andyou're sipping on a beer and you

(25:14):
feel awful, right.
And, um, if you're somebodylike like me with IBS, chances
are I was renting it anywaybecause I I don't.
I couldn't hold anything in, itwould just go through me.
And now I'm sitting hereprobably an hour and a half
after I ate and I still feelcompletely full.
I have no cravings, and maybewe should talk about that for a
sec too.
Is that when you switch the ketocarnivore diet, you don't feel

(25:38):
driven to the pantry to searchout and balance the combination
between salts and sugars.
You're not chasing the salt andchips because you don't consume
them, or an excessive amount ofnuts.
And the chocolates, if you'regoing to have it, it's a dark
chocolate.
Well, interestingly, anythingis 85%.
I tend to aim for 85% or higher.

(25:59):
No sugar added, and yes, theykind of rip you off because 100
grams at 85% added.
And yes, they kind of rip youoff because 100 grams at 85%, if
you move to 100%, you'regetting 50 grams.
But no one's going to sit downand eat an entire chocolate bar
of 100% organic, because, one,you'll end up with a sore tongue
because you'll end up havinglittle tiny tankers on your

(26:20):
tongue from it.
And two, don't really need itand there's some health benefits
to consuming it.
Um, I, I make what I call poorman's reeses and pal peanut
butter on that dark chocolate aswell.
So then I'm getting someadditional fat and some protein
and I know what I'm consuming isof high quality, which doesn't
disrupt the good meal that youhad.
Because if you eat, uh, good,high quality meats, chances are

(26:45):
like, in the order, you'reeating them.
So if you are keto, you're goingto do like me you'll have a
salad and then you have yourmeat and then have your yogurt,
maybe with a few bio-rich fruitslike, for instance, organic
blueberries, not the ones thatare grown in farms that are the
size of your thumb.
Those are not obviously goodexamples.

(27:08):
Or even just your localstrawberries that are kind of a
little.
They're not too too sweet,they're a little bit tart.
That's usually a sign that haslower sugar and you add a little
bit of fiber to that, whichwill help blunt the sugar,
because that's what I'm aimingfor.
You know, you'll feel fantasticbecause everything you just
consumed is definitely going tocarry you into the next day and
the way you and I work is youcan call dinner packing lunch

(27:32):
for tomorrow, because in essence, we don't eat again, usually
until 12 or one o'clock, becausewe don't feel like it.
Last two days I haven't eatenbefore 2 pm because I didn't eat
to.
I didn't want to.
The day before that I didn'teat all day until the evening
because it was super hot.
I was outside working, cuttingwood and doing that sort of
thing, and so I didn't feel Ineeded to, because the night
before I had a massive steak andlike probably almost too much.

(27:55):
You know I had a hard timefinishing it, but I wasn't going
to waste a New York strip, so Iconsumed it and I didn't feel
the need to even eat the nextday.

Graham (28:06):
Yeah, interesting.
You say that because you knowour local butcher sources has
some really good sources ofregenerative farm grass fed beef
, and their ribeyes are the bestI've ever had.

(28:28):
They're call it twenty sevenbucks plus tax.
Let's call it 30 bucks.
For easy math, that 30 buckswill last me 24 hours Because if
I eat that giant ribeye steakif I want to throw some butter
on top I will, but generally Idon't need to the ribeye with
absolutely nothing else.

(28:48):
I might have some you knowbubbly water or something, but
that will I will likely not eatuntil dinnertime the next day.
So when it comes to the cost ofyou know the cost of carnivore,
no, you don't need to besourcing grass fed or organic

(29:09):
animal products.
It can be expensive, especiallydepending on where you are in
the country or around the world.
Things like you know groundbeef, pork, shoulder eggs in
bulk, where you can get themCostco is a great example of
that that the opportunity toactually cut down on the cost

(29:33):
and we've talked about this alot of times, but maybe we'll
approach this a different way.
The first exercise is add upyour total grocery cost for a
month.
You don't need to tell anybodyabout it, just keep track of it
for a month or two.
Add on the fast food, as we'vetalked about before, because a
lot of people don't include thatin their food bill, but it is

(29:54):
part of your food bill and oftensignificantly more expensive
than you can imagine.
Add on any restaurant visits.
I know when we go out with ourfamily we used to be able to eat
for under a hundred bucks.
There's no way now.
It's impossible.
It's like 125, $145.
And of course, they now wantthe 25% tip.
Add on the supplements to thatbill.

(30:16):
Add all that up for a couple ofmonths and take a look at that
total bill.
Well, that's your startingpoint for buying the best of a
selection of keto and carnivorefriendly foods and you'll
probably find that you can buysignificantly more nutritious

(30:37):
meals for about the same priceor possibly less.
A second tip when it comes tothis hurdle of the high cost or
the roadblock of high cost ofgoing keto or carnivore.
High cost or the roadblock ofhigh cost of going keto or
carnivore connect with farmerswhere you can.
If you're right in the middleof the city, yes, this is going
to be harder, but for a lot ofpeople who live out in suburbs.

(30:59):
There are likely farmers inyour area.
Might be a half hour drive,might be an hour drive, but you
can buy in bulk.
You can take a look at the costbenefit of buying a freezer,
which is what we did.
It made sense because we weresaving so much money by buying
in bulk directly from the farmer, cutting out all of the

(31:22):
distributors, cutting out theretailer costs, we were getting
that beef for significantlycheaper.
Go to farmer's markets wherepossible.
Your money is going to thepeople who are, you know, the
individuals that are growingyour food.
Get to know them.
They are some of the bestpeople I've ever met.
There's nothing better thanwalking up to your farmer and

(31:45):
then telling you about the week,how things are going, what kind
of challenges they're goingthrough, and they're always
putting aside some goodies foryou and maybe even the dog if
you're friendly enough with them.
These are ways to reduce yourcosts.
And so also, get on your mailerlist at your grocery store, if

(32:05):
they have one.
I'm on it.
I'm surprised every now, andthen I'll get a mailer out that
says hey, uh, this, uh, mediumground beef.
Uh, so, not lean ground beef,but a more fatty version of
ground beef, which is what Iprefer and what I will always
buy.
It was half price.
Um, you know, every now andthen it's half price of the lean

(32:26):
ground beef.
I go to the grocery store and Ibuy every single one that they
have there.
I clean them out, I put it inthe freezer and now I'm eating
for a lot cheaper than Inormally would.
So for me it's a better meat athalf the cost.
Those are all tips and tricksto be able to control the cost
of this perceived cost, or highcost, of going to a keto or

(32:49):
carnivore diet, this perceivedcost or high cost of going to a
keto or carnivore diet.
And you may find, in getting toknow these people, that there
are sources of food available toyou that you had no idea were
available.
And you start to make somefriends with some pretty awesome
people that are doing thedifficult work to get good food
on the table.
Anything to add, stephen?

(33:09):
Before I go on to the next one,yeah, just real quick.

Stephen (33:13):
One of the things you can do too, if you're like well,
listen, I kind of live in thecity or in the suburbs, I don't
really know any farmers.
Look for a co-op in your area,because often those farmers are
coming to the co-op and gettingtheir chicken feed.
And I go to my local co-op andI'm often will hang out and just
listen to the conversations,because you can learn so much

(33:34):
from the farmers.
You know, yeah, our yields aredown on spinach or our yields
are up on you know, nobody'sgetting fruit this year because
you know it's too dry, uh thatsort of thing.
So it kind of dials you intothe reality of what you're
experiencing.
And they can often give youguidance too and say this
butcher's really good, if you'relooking for X or I can put you

(33:55):
in touch with them, or sometimesthey'll even have bulletin
boards and they'll have thenames from them.
I know in my particular co-optoo, is if you're like like in
my case, my wife is a vegetarianso me purchasing a cow and
putting it in the freezer isjust not practical.
First of all, it would take metwo years to get through all

(34:16):
that meat.
But teaming up with someonethat's in the local area and
perhaps sharing is potentially agood thing.
But I generally like I don'tmind if I'm spending a little
bit more, because I'll tell youwhat I'm going to share this
with you right now.
Graham, I went to my localgrocery store I won't name it

(34:36):
and I went oh wow, you know,there was horrendous traffic
because it's cottage country andI wasn't going to make the
extra 30 minute trek to go sixkilometers to see my butcher
because I had to get yogurt,some other things which he
doesn't sell.
And I thought, well, maybe I'lljust look to see what they have
in terms of meat.
And I went oh wow, you know,new York strips are on sale.

(34:57):
So I thought, wow, that's three, four.
And I looked at the price andit was $34 for three and I
thought, well, that's not so bad.
They're smaller than what Inormally get, but I'm probably
paying $28 for one.
But of course mine is grass-fedgrain finish, so it's much
higher quality.
I did not buy it because my eyescan see that that's not red

(35:20):
meat, that's pink meat.
I don't eat pink meat, I onlyeat red meat.
So it's not even close to thesame quality.
So I look at my body and gookay, I don't describe that as a
treat.
It's the right thing to do.
People talk about oh, I puthigh octane in my car, even
though it doesn't ask for it,and give it a treat.

(35:41):
No, we're not talking aboutthat.
We're talking about instanceswhere, yeah, certainly, if
you're on a budget, that beatseating licorice, walking out of
the store for sure, all day long, but if you can afford it and
you manage your portionsaccordingly, I would always
reach for the best meat you canafford.
Because if you buy a roast atthe butcher and pay $150 for

(36:02):
this roast which sounds insane,it's probably a six or seven
pound roast You're going to as asingle person.
You're going to have that thing, single person you're going to.
You're going to have that thingfor probably four or five meals
.
So compare that to what I paidthis weekend.
My wife had nachos they're notreally hard to make and I had
roast beef and she drank a sodaand I drank drank a club soda

(36:28):
with lime in it and the bill was150 bucks with the tip.
Drink a soda and I drink, drinka club soda with lime in it and
the bill was 150 bucks with thetip you know, for two.
So how many, how many roastbeefs could, and and those
chicken egg things that I had,can I buy with 150 bucks?
I can, I can probably get twoweeks supply with that amount of
money.

Graham (36:44):
Yeah, great point.
I love your tip about the co-op.
When we recently moved and soof course, we had all our
connections in our oldneighborhood Big challenge in
moving to a new place and mywife jumped on Facebook, found
local groups, just put out acouple of questions.
We're looking for some healthyeggs from a farmer.

(37:07):
We're looking for the bestbutchers.
It was unbelievable the amountof information we received over
the next couple a farmer.
We're looking for the bestbutchers.
It was unbelievable the amountof information we received over
the next couple of days.
We've made, you know, if I thinkabout sort of four years ago,
when I wasn't even thinkingabout this eating lifestyle,
compared to now, the number offriends that I've made that are
you know in this space, whetherthey're the farmer, whether

(37:27):
they're the butcher, I've metsome really amazing people and
it's you know, it's one of thoseyou know.
Put that in your book ofawesome.
Of the fun parts of thisjourney is you're actually
meeting some fantastic peoplethat are like-minded and it
makes a huge difference in, youknow, the support kind of

(37:48):
network that you put together infeeling like not only is your
money going to the right place,it's going to great people and
you're benefiting greatly as aresult.
Let's jump to our next one.
So this one is something thatprobably everybody who goes down
the keto or carnivore eatinglifestyle will face, and that is

(38:11):
social challenges.
And what do we mean by that?
Difficulty navigatingrestaurants.
What should I order?
Because, uh, let's face it,restaurants always have
vegetarian choices.
Uh, they may even have veganchoices.
Uh, I have never been to arestaurant that has carnivore
choices.
I'm hoping that changes in thefuture.

(38:31):
But and I want to hear your,your experience in this as well,
stephen but it's the difficultynavigating restaurants and
parties, family meals wherenon-meat options dominate.
You know the pastas and thepizzas and the chicken nuggets

(38:52):
and you know a lot of non-fooditems.
In my opinion, those are goingto dominate these meals.
I'm always amazed when there'sactually events that I've gone
to, where I've gotten there, andliterally the only thing that I

(39:38):
wanted to, the only thing thatfit my my sort of food test,
were carrots and celery, and Idon't care how much I eat.
I am never going to actuallyfeel full with the carrots and
celery, and so I was hungry allnight.
I ate carrots and celery and itjust wasn't doing anything for
me.
One of the things that Iadjusted is when I know I'm
going to a social event and I'mnot sure what the food's gonna
be, and I'll usually eitherinquire or see if there's a menu

(39:59):
or whatever.
If I'm going to a restaurant,if I'm going to a party, if I'm
going to a family event, if I'mnot sure that there's going to
be something that's gonna fillme up, I'm going to eat some,
you know, half pound of groundbeef before I go, because the

(40:19):
worst thing that's going tohappen is I'm not going to eat,
there's not going to be anythingto eat, but I'm also not going
to need to eat anything.
I, you know, if there's alittle bit of beef there, if
there's scrambled eggs, ifthere's even deviled eggs,
sometimes I might even eventhough I know in the middle
isn't the best for you I mightdabble in those things, but I've
already satiated myself, mybody doesn't need to eat, and so

(40:41):
that would be one of myrecommendations in going there.
The second recommendation is alittle less about the difficulty
in navigating, but thedifficulty in navigating
conversations, and we haven'treally talked about this before,
and I heard this tip from oneof the influencers that I
listened to early on and Ithought this made a lot of sense

(41:02):
.
Some people are going to reactlike you have three heads.
If you tell them you'recarnivore or they're going to
have no idea what you're talkingabout.
They've never heard of keto.
They don't know what you'retalking about.
All they know is the standardAmerican diet and, of course,
that's got to be the best thingfor you, because that's the one
that's recommended For thosepeople who don't really want to

(41:25):
share that information if theyjust want to.
You know, if people are saying,oh, I noticed you're a bit of a
picky eater and you might hearthat from time to time and you
don't really want to get into it, one of the things you can do
is let people know that you'veadjusted to a modified
Mediterranean diet.

(41:48):
And as soon as you talk about amodified Mediterranean diet,
people go, oh, I hear that'svery healthy, that's very good
for you, and you go from havingthree heads to, oh, you're doing
a great job, congratulations.
So that's one of the ways tonavigate those social challenges
If you just want to keep peopleat bay as far as what you're
doing, because at the end of theday, it's none of their advice

(42:09):
or, sorry, none of theirbusiness what you're doing,
because at the end of the day,it's none of their advice or,
sorry, none of their business.
What you're doing.
That's one way to push themback.
You can tell your doctor that,if you want, and your doctor
will say, oh, that's wonderful.
But if you tell them you'reeating a lot of red meat,
they're going to tell you you'recrazy and you're.
You know you're.
It's not going to end well,stephen, what do you say about

(42:29):
social challenges, because Iknow you've experienced these as
well.

Stephen (42:33):
Yeah.
So my personality type's alittle more blunt, I think, than
yours.
So if someone says, you know,listen, I can eat anything in
moderation, I say, yeah, itshows, because they'll be
overweight, they'll be suckingon an inhaler, they'll be doing
whatever it is that they'redoing, and you and I have talked
offline about that before andI'll just say, look, I used to

(42:55):
look like you, you know, thelast time I was at my peak
weight, my kids were younger andmy son took a picture of me and
I think I burst a button on thetuxedo I was wearing because it
didn't fit me anymore, and thetails of the shirt were sticking
at the bottom, so you could seebare skin.
And you know, and when I sawthe picture after a couple of

(43:16):
minutes after on my phone, I wasreally embarrassed by that.
So and that was because, youknow, we've talked about this
before as my diet reflected mylifestyle, I considered what I
ate was secondary, because I wasin the gym and I made, you know
, all of these assumptions in mymind which didn't correlate
with my blood results, and Iultimately ended up becoming a
diabetic.
That was entirely preventable.

(43:37):
If I had to just listen to it,my body was screaming, you know,
five, 10 years earlier.
So I'm grateful that the body'san amazing thing and, kind of
like your dogs, they'll forgiveyou for whatever silliness
you've committed to, that theyhave to bear witness to, and
they'll still love you to death.
And it's amazing what the bodywill do to bounce back from
something like that.

(43:57):
But the point is you and I arein the same place.
We're not going to continue tobend the metal back and forth,
back and forth, even under thesocial pressure, because there's
nothing worse.
And again, you know this is acall out to my fellow IBS
sufferers.
And again, you know this is acall out to my fellow IBS
sufferers there's nothing worsethan, you know, having to use
someone's washroom at theirhouse four times because 10
minutes after you ate you're inexcruciating pain, abdominal

(44:19):
pain.
You're not sure you're going tobe able to make it home.
So what do you end up doing?
Is you start cutting out socialactivities?
You're right nasty when peoplewant you to eat, because you
know the only way that you canavoid this happening especially
if you're right nasty whenpeople want you to eat, because
you know the only way that youcan avoid this happening,
especially if you're triggeredis by not eating anything, and
that's still not a guarantee,you know you still might end up
having to to visit theirwashroom.

(44:41):
So you know these are.
I consider that a far moreawkward social consequence than
saying hey, man, I don't dodouble eggs or, um, yeah, I
understand everything inmoderation.
Have you eaten a poinsettia inmoderation lately?
It'll kill you dead, right,like it's just a silly statement
and we're not condoning eatingpoinsettias.
They're for Christmasornamentation, not for

(45:02):
consumption.
But, all jokes aside, I mean Ithink at this stage of my life,
I really honestly don't care,because it's my inner voice, is
my coach, not someone else'sutter voice.
So I listen to what my body isdoing, not what someone is
trying to tell me, and I'mperfectly happy if they have a
different opinion.

(45:23):
I've even clashed withnaturopaths, you know, because
they'll say something like yeah,I don't think carnivore is um
healthy and like have you seenmy, my podcast buddy's um blood
results because I'm more keto?
Um, and it works for me, andhe's full carnivore and he's had
similar, better outcomes, youknow.
But again, I don't.
You know what works works andI'm I'm happy to take some

(45:45):
guidance, whether it's from them, my plumber or my electrician,
but at the the end of the day,the ultimate decisions are my
own.

Graham (45:53):
Yeah, and I'm so glad you said that.
People will certainly accuse meof speaking my mind when it
comes to this topic as well.
I'm not shy about it.
Some might be more shy about it, especially at the beginning.
It's such a wonderful thingwhen you get to the point where
you're feeling great, your bloodworks in the right place.
It gives you the confidence tosay this is what I'm doing and

(46:15):
it's working.
And some people will takenotice.
Some people will tell you thatyou're crazy, but who cares at
the end of the day?
One of the things I wanted tomention about navigating
restaurants just before we moveon is I found, you know, three
years ago, when I started onthis journey, when I went to a
restaurant and I asked about youknow, we'll call it hamburger

(46:38):
patties, with nothing else onthe plate, there were a couple
of things that happened.
They'd look at me strangely.
They'd say, oh, I got to figureout what that's going to cost.
And they'd come back and sayI'm being told that I've got to
charge you for three hamburgers.
So now I'm eating $50 meal withthree patties, which is
absolutely ridiculous.

(47:00):
What's interesting in call itthe last six months or so, on
the rare occasion when I go to arestaurant.
I'm certainly not going to goto that restaurant again, but
occasionally, when I go to arestaurant or even a breakfast
place that my wife and I go tooccasionally, I'll say this is
what I want, just the proteinand the fat.
And not only will they now havevery reasonable prices for

(47:25):
those things, but often I willget the waitress who now is no
longer surprised about what I'mordering saying, oh, are you on
the keto or are you doingcarnivore, um?
And I'll say yes and they'll gooh, that's so interesting.
I'm trying the same thing.
It's amazing the number of timesthat I've seen that, and I
wonder if it's because and Idon't know this for a fact, but

(47:46):
I wonder if it's because thepeople that go into the
restaurant and order this wayare all looking pretty chiseled
and looking pretty thin andfeeling pretty confident.
And the waitress goes there's atheme here and maybe I should
pay attention to what thesepeople are doing.
No idea if that's true, but inmy mind that's a reality.
Stephen, what's next on yourlist?

Stephen (48:09):
Yeah, I got to jump down the list a little bit
because I want to talk aboutperceived health risks and we're
not doctors folks, so I want tounderline that before I mention
these things.
But there's a fear for highcholesterol.
Do your research and focus ontriglycerides, certainly, but
the LDLs and HDL factors, youknow they're actually naturally

(48:32):
produced by the liver anyway.
So there's a lot of conflictinginformation around that.
I know it gets very confusing.
Graham and I spend a lot oftime between the weeks doing
research and we'll send annoyingemails back to one another,
usually with colorful language,talking about how ridiculous a
particular study is, because youknow they countermand one thing

(48:52):
in the first two paragraphs ofsomething they say later.
But yeah, it's okay to havelemon meringue every once in a
while.
It just isn't.
It isn't, unfortunately.
I wished it was.
You know, my old nickname ofcake face is one I quite enjoyed
, you know, or so I thought backin the day, and it no longer
applies.
So I think you know thesehealth risks that people think

(49:12):
are going to exist.
Honestly, just baseline whereyou are now and ask yourself the
same questions that Graham andI ask ourselves each day, and
that is, you know, do I feelbetter, do I see improvements?
And you're going to have baddays.
I mean, I got up this morningand I was flatlined, like I said
, if my CGM was my heartbeat Iwould have been dead because it
was dead flat all night.
And I was flatlined, like Isaid, if my CGM was my heartbeat
I would have been dead becauseit was dead flat all night and
it was like under five.

(49:33):
And you know, I woke up thismorning and there was a few
things going on in my personallife.
My sugar immediately went, youknow.
Oh, thank you cortisol, nice tosee you.
Here's a nice big, you know,serotonin rush.
And next thing, you know, I'mat 7.9.
But it didn't stay there forvery long and, and obviously the

(49:58):
caffeine in the coffee is goingto increase that as well.
So being dialed in all thethings I just described takes
time to learn about your ownbody.
People react differently when itcomes to stimulants, when it
comes to consequences, andobviously there's there's
there's a number of differentsources for whether it's heart
disease or cancer.
You can read about, but I knowone that I gravitated to was the
Truth About Cancer.

(50:18):
It was written by a gentlemanout of Texas and I won't say
much more about it than that.
Just go do your research.
And there was in fact a study Iread today to the UK talking
about increased incidences ofcolon cancer somehow associated
to the COVID period.
I'm not sure, when I read thestudy that, why that correlation

(50:41):
was indicated.
It wasn't causality butcorrelation, perhaps because
people had a more sedentarylifestyle.
But they started to check forcancer, colon cancer in
particular, at 45 instead of 50in the UK so that people can
catch it sooner.
And I know from having hadpolyps which are a precursor to
cancer.
I've had three colonoscopies.

(51:04):
I had polyps the first time.
Second time nothing.
Third time, absolutely nothing.
She just said for you inparticular, I need you to have
more fiber.
Hence I started including hempseed, flax, two varieties of
chia on top of the drink atnight and really bolstered my

(51:26):
gut.
I also had my gut biome checkedto see if I had any dysbiotic
bacteria and we talked aboutthis on a previous episode.
I found out I did because Iused to travel a lot to
different countries.
That probably caused someissues.
The one with antibiotics arebasically a grass fire for your
microbiome.
So it's restoring that balanceby looking at okay, what foods

(51:49):
am I consuming today that aregoing to boost my, my uh
microbiome?
And you can, you'll usually know, and what?
How do you?
How can you tell if thosethings are out of whack?
You'll get sick, and so so, ifthere's something going around
like we had a virus go aroundrecently and I think I shared
this with you, graham Um, I hadit for about four and a half
hours.
I could feel it coming on going.
It feels so good because Iworked out at the gym and I was

(52:10):
not as strong as normal and Ithought, okay, well, I'm going
to have a nap, I'm going tochill, and ironically, I didn't
get the chills, but my wife didthe next day and had it for two.
And I'm not.
I'm not picking on vegetarians,I'm just saying that I had my
zinc in me, I had my magnesium,I've been eating my meats,

(52:33):
controlling my mental state andyou know, I'd love to find out
what my actual body's biologicalage is, rather than how many
birthdays I've accumulated,because I really think you and I
are rewinding the clock.

Graham (52:41):
Yeah, or at least hitting pause.
I totally agree and I'm notsure I can add anything.
That was an excellent summary,one of the things that I think
can help people, and I recommendlistening to our podcast a few
episodes back on the influencersthat had the biggest impact on

(53:05):
our lives.
Each one of those people is anabsolute goldmine of information
and you know, stephen and Ihave probably combined for many,
many, many thousands of hoursof listening, reading research
papers we're not suggesting youhave to do that, but those

(53:25):
influencers it's actually prettyeasy to jump down that rabbit
hole and start to be reallyinterested in that information.
There's a documentary on YouTubecalled fat exclamation mark FAT
exclamation mark which is agreat eye opener for people that
we recommend taking a look at.
And you know, it really comesdown to building confidence in

(53:50):
yourself, in the fact that thislifestyle is healthy for you,
Because if you have a constantfear of people saying, oh you're
, you know you're going to havea heart attack, you're going to
get cancer, all of these things,if you're in fear of that,
that's not a great way to gothrough life.
If you do get to the point whereStephen and I are, where we are

(54:10):
100% comfortable that we'reeating in a healthy manner and
the outcomes are going to bebeneficial.
It creates a real sense ofresilience, I think, for anybody
who kind of has a differentopinion.
I now know that the you know,thousands of hours of research
that I've done is more than the10 hours of training that a

(54:33):
doctor will get on nutrition, um, and so I don't know anywhere
near as much as they do when itcomes to the overall um sort of
way the body operates, and I'llnever pretend to Um, but I am
going to uh, I, I, I amconfident that I have a in-depth

(54:56):
sense of, you know, the effectthat food has on the body, and I
think it's really important tobuild up that confidence, and it
does take time, and so werecommend taking that time.

Stephen (55:06):
Yeah, I was just going to add, if I may, for one sec,
so, that one of the keydistinctions I want to sort of
build on what you just describedis and I want to stress this
for our listeners we're notsaying that doctors are bad
because the sources we're goingto happen to be endocrinologists
, epidemiologists, respectedresearchers.
We're looking at longitudinalstudies with a good group,

(55:30):
because when you do a metaanalysis, a meta analysis means
you're putting a loop around awhole bunch of studies of which
it's only as good as the studiesin which you last sued.
So meta-analysis doesn't meanmore of a good thing, it could
be more of a bad thing.
And, like we talked about in aprevious episode that we did, we
talked about the fact thatthere are many instances where

(55:52):
you know entities out there thatare promoting a particular
slant to this are spending moremoney than NIH on the research
which is, you know, you wouldn'task the assailant in a crime to
, you know, be the judge totheir own prosecution.
It doesn't make sense.

(56:13):
So I have to have, for those ofyou that have a research-centric
bent, what I would akin this tomore is a personalized
analytical analysis.
So personalize it, do yourbaseline analysis against okay,
here's where I am today.
The same ways you would ifyou're going to the gym saying,
okay, I currently weigh 178pounds, I can bench press 150.

(56:36):
Okay, we'll put all those KPIsin there, those key performance
indicators, and this is whereI'm at right now and this is
what I'm doing.
So that's personalized.
You don't need a coach for that, you can do that yourself.
You just have to be somewhatregimented in your approach to
your well being.
So, all factor in all thethings that you do, see what
happens to your body when youwork out just before you go to

(56:56):
bed on a treadmill or somethingto that effect, you'll notice.
If you're wearing a CGM, likeme, your sugar will drop.
You'll have a nice smooth night, especially when you introduce
Ceylon, cinnamon and some chiaand your magnesium and so forth,
and you'll sleep very well.
So if you look at each of thoseparts of your life as segments
that you're intending for aspecific outcome, then you're

(57:19):
going to be.
You're going to be your own 24and seven doctor slash, chemist
slash, botanist slash, butcher,slash everything you know.
So become that Renaissanceperson that takes interest in
self and determine what it isthat's triggering you.
Because, for those of you withPTSD.
If you get triggered, all ofthe magnesium and zinc and

(57:40):
everything else you've takengoes out the window.
We all know that, because yourstress hormone will be so high,
your body is in a fight orflight state.
That's not going to work.
So, incidentally, when thathappens, probably best you don't
eat anything.
Drink some water, keep hydrated, make sure you're getting
enough sodium, potassium, thatsort of thing like your trace
minerals.
But there are times when you'reactually doing your body a

(58:01):
favor by not asking it to rowthe boat and repair it at the
same time, right.
And the other thing I wanted toadd to that, if I may, is keep
in mind so go back to firstprinciples and say why am I
doing this?
I'm doing this to lose weight.
Okay, then you need to focusmore on the methods to losing
weight in a healthy way, at arate that's appropriate, and you

(58:23):
would use your blood levels andother things to test to see if
you're normalizing to ametabolic outcome that you're
aiming towards.
That's very different thansomeone that's going hey, listen
, I'm only interested inantophagy at this stage because
I've had some past illnesses.
I'm really concerned aboutcancer.

(58:45):
I'm concerned about these otherthings.
They may already be at ahealthy weight.
So they'd have to look at rootcause and analyze okay, how can
I eat better, what do I need,what does my body like and how
does it react to it?
Because in some cases you couldbe some kind of a variant
around what myself and Grahamare doing.
Graham's more carnivore, I'mmore keto.
You might find that carnivoreworks better for you.

(59:06):
You may find under certainconditions, as I do, carnivore
works better for me.
When I'm not feeling that greatbut I'm still hungry, I dump
everything and I just eat meatand then I find, for whatever
reason, my body will take moretime to digest that and, yes, my
sugar will rise over the nightbecause it's slowly working
through it, but I'm not gettinga spike.

(59:28):
You know that's over the topbecause there's no fats, there's
no fruits.
Like most of us are quitesensitive if you're a diabetic
to fruits anyway, so they'reusually in small quantities.
So I'll cut all that out andgive my body a chance.
But if you're not doing it forsomething specific and you say
and this kind of leads into oneof our other questions here,

(59:49):
graham, where you know, can Ihave cream in my coffee in the
morning.
Yeah, and you're trying to, asDr Fung and others have
suggested, do a 16-8 or an 18-6,that's certainly going to help
with your weight loss and it'scertainly going to provide other
indicators.
But if you're stressed outfirst thing in the morning with

(01:00:12):
the Don phenomena, just bynature, and then you decide to
not consume food because I'vetried that too, your cortisol
will be even higher and now yourbody's in a state of
inflammation.
I found, interestingly, whenthe days when I was stressed, if
I started with a breakfastwhich I don't typically do of
eggs and bacon, my sugar wasfantastic.

(01:00:34):
Five hours after that, becauseI took one stressor out of the
equation, my body wasn't goinghey, I think there might be
dinosaurs around here and we'realso hungry.
I took one of those equationsaway.

Graham (01:00:46):
Yeah, and I should mention Stephen and I both know
that dinosaurs lived on theplanet Earth way before humans
did.
It's a term of reference thatwe always find funny Call it the
saber-toothed tiger, whateveryou want to call it and I'm glad
you brought up the topic arounddoctors.
Every single doctor that I'veever met I know some personally

(01:01:08):
and obviously have had manydoctors over my lifetime Every
single one of them is superintelligent, wants to do the
right thing.
Super intelligent, wants to dothe right thing, and a lot of
times they are required tofollow certain guidelines, and
you know that's certainlyunderstandable, that that's the
position that they're in.
Stephen and I have, you know,got a second opinion from other

(01:01:33):
doctors, and the vast majorityof the influencers that have
guided us are medical doctorsand PhDs with excellent
reputations.
So it's simply getting a secondopinion, and doctors are an
incredibly important part of oursociety, so we always want to
make sure that people understandthat.
One of the things, stephen, Iwanted to bring up and I want to

(01:01:58):
hear more I'll tell my briefstory and then I want to hear
much more from you and that'saround family and household
resistance.
So now we're talking about,within the four walls of your
house.
This could be kids, but maybeto a lesser extent.
It could be more to do withyour spouse, and there can be

(01:02:20):
additional challenges if thefather and mother are not living
in the same home.
So obviously they're going to,you know, maybe be resistant to
the changes that the otherspouse is making when it comes
to food, but let's focus onpartners your spouse, for
example.

(01:02:42):
During our journey as I waswalking down this path, my wife
was very encouraging.
She knew about the blood workresults and she was very
supportive of the journey that.
She knows that I generally godown, which is a really deep
rabbit hole, doing way moreresearch than anyone would deem

(01:03:05):
necessary and coming out theother side with a pretty good
hopefully confidentunderstanding of what's going on
and how to fix it.
And so what I found myselfdoing is never in a million
years would I want to tell mywife how to eat.
Um, what I would end up doingis I would watch call it 20 or

(01:03:28):
30 videos, and then I would pickthe one or two that I thought
were really on point, reallyintelligent, and we'd watch it
together, and we'd watch ittogether, and we'd watch it
together so I could get heropinion on it, because I wanted
a second opinion from somebodywho cares about me and is only
looking out for what's best forme not to convince her to change

(01:03:54):
.
It was more to say hey, doesthis make sense to you?
She's a medical professional,she has a lot of training when
it comes to people's physicaland mental health, and so I
wanted her opinion, not toconvince her to change, but I
wanted her opinion.
Inadvertently, what happenedover time is she started to

(01:04:15):
learn the things that I waslearning.
I would give her the sort ofthe Cole's Notes version
whatever you want, the Cliff'sNotes, whatever you want to call
it the sort of condensedversion of what I was finding
along the journey.
And again, not to convince herto change, but to be a second
check to somebody that you knownot only do I care about her

(01:04:38):
opinion, but I respect it agreat deal.
And so she was probably in thisjourney just sort of making her
own changes, maybe a couple ofmonths behind me, and again, I
was not convincing her to dothis, she was making the changes
all by herself.
At some point she very quicklycaught up to me because she was

(01:04:58):
starting to see the benefits,like I was, and so for me it was
the perfect scenario, because Ihad a lot of support at home.
You, steven, are in a differentscenario, where your wife and
yourself, I believe, started outas vegetarians.
You ended up moving over to theketogenic, slash, carnivore way

(01:05:22):
of eating, whereas your wiferemained a vegetarian.
I want to hear a little bitabout from you on.
What is it like to go throughthat journey?
What is it like to preparemeals in a house that has those
challenges, because you've madeit work.

Stephen (01:05:38):
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks for that.
It's a good question and I'mnot going to do a play on words,
but I think the important wordthat you kept repeating is
journey, and journey is singular, it's not plural.
So my wife has her journey, Ihave my journey and we're
respective of each other'sjourney.
I've used this analogy in otherapplications to say that we're

(01:06:00):
all trying to reach a certainparticular outcome.
If you're a mountain climber wetalk about hitting the peak and
there are many paths to thatand if you're mindful of that
path and you do your researchand you see the results that
goes back to individualizedaccountability for your care
then you'll make the appropriatedecisions For ethical reasons.

(01:06:23):
My wife won't consume meat and Ihighly respect that and that's
her choice, and we live in anarea with lots of wild animals
and I used to hunt and I stillfish and that sort of thing.
I don't do that on our property.
I don't hunt at all, actually,unless, of course, you're in
orange clay.
Then you're probably in trouble.
But beyond that, theseadjustments are just natural.

(01:06:45):
If you love the person thatyou're with, you're going to
make some adjustments.
I'll sometimes tease her and say, okay, this is for sure the
best piece of roast beef in thewhole wide world and if there's
one tiny piece left in the backof the kitchen, I need you to
cover me because I'm going forit.
So we joke about you know whatwe both eat.

(01:07:06):
I even saw a t-shirt once thatwas a deer.
It said John Deere and it waspeeing on the grass and the
moniker said my food pees onyour food, which I thought was
hilarious.
She wouldn't let me buy it.
I would have walked around withtown with it, but that's kind
of where we're at.
So, for instance, in allseriousness, tonight I had the

(01:07:27):
chicken that I had mentionedfrom my butcher and you know she
made me a salad and she didn'tactually at that point want to
eat, but she said you know, Iknow you'd enjoy the salad.
I went and bought some stufflocally and she put it together
for me, which I thought wasreally nice.
And she isn't picking on mebecause I'm consuming something
that was alive, you know, amonth ago, and I'm not upset

(01:07:52):
that she's relatively healthy,more so than me.
She's not a diabetic, her sugarisn't elevated.
If she had serious healthconcerns and I saw that she
wasn't taking care of herself,then I would certainly step in
to save her from herself, so tospeak.
But again, there are reasonswhy she is the way she is and

(01:08:13):
she supplements and does otherthings to make sure that she
remains as healthy as shechooses to be in her own journey
, those other things to makesure that she remains as healthy
as she chooses to be in her ownjourney.

Graham (01:08:21):
Yeah, fantastic summary.
Let's jump to the next item onyour list, Stephen.

Stephen (01:08:33):
Yeah, that's great.
Thanks very much.
There was another one that sortof jumped out at me and I do
apologize for maybe for some ofthe folks that are listening if
it appears that we're bouncingaround.
But you know, this is one thatI wanted to talk to you because
I work out four or five times aweek and I was even thinking
about this today prior to uscompiling this list, and thank
you for doing that.
The potential muscle loss, rapidweight loss on keto variants

(01:08:56):
may include lean muscle, proteinintake or exercise isn't
optimized.
I would suggest for anyone toindependently do a search, as I
did on.
Dr Jason Fung speaks to eliteathletes about intermittent
fasting and the stages.
He's a nephrologist.

(01:09:16):
The stages are when you begincannibalizing muscle or protein,
and I'm not talking aboutgenetic illness, dna issues or
metabolic issues like that.
I'm talking about the averageperson and when that would occur
, that cannibalization isactually a starvation.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
And even for people that dohyper extended fasts because

(01:09:40):
they're trying to reverse theirdiabetes and they're morbidly
obese, that still is going to beunder the direction and control
of a doctor because they'refacing in instances that Dr Fung
highlights in his book, they'refacing imminent death, you know
, and that's that's very drasticand very serious, but we're not
.
We're not talking about that.
I can tell you categoricallythat.

(01:10:03):
You know, there's plenty ofexamples about vegetarians.
There's a claim that one of thestrongest men in the world is
vegetarian.
That's all well and good, but Ihave to go back to the first
principles again.
For me personally, what did Iexperience?
I discovered that I had muscleloss, despite trying to work out
regularly when I was avegetarian, because I couldn't

(01:10:23):
consume the right proteins andthe right quantities that
weren't either inflammatory,that were full of estrogen I'm
talking about the typical thingsthat vegetarians will gravitate
towards and so I essentiallyfound that I was getting weaker
towards, and so I essentiallyfound that I was getting weaker.

(01:10:43):
You know, today I was at 95% ofmy peak benching.
I wasn't tired.
I don't look like someone who's58 years old.
I'm as big or bigger than someof the kids that are in there in
their twenties and that wasn'talways the case.
You know, I leaned out to.
You know I'm six two.
I leaned out to 178 pounds and,you know, found out that the
swimsuit edition of SportsIllustrated was not going to

(01:11:07):
hire me to do the next shot.
So I thought well, you know, Imight as well put some lean
muscle back on, and I did andbecame stronger for it.
So I think the the idea thatyou're weaker I would argue from
doing this since I was 16 yearsold for 42 years is weakness in
the gym, if you're dialed intoyour body, it's usually a sign

(01:11:27):
of overtraining, not because youate meat and not necessarily
because you have to eat justsolid the night before.
So listen to your body andyou'll see as you dial in and
take care of yourself and youget rid of the ultra processed
foods.
It's hard to figure out what'swrong with your body.
When everything you're eating,right down to looking at a glass
of water, starts to make yousick, you're in trouble and

(01:11:48):
that's where I was.
So when you start peeling backthe onion and you start eating
properly and you're still goingto the gym and doing the other
healthy things, you're evendoing, like I told you, you know
, cutting wood.
90 minutes in I would sweatright through my shirt at peak
diabetes and I was absolutelyexhausted and I would sleep for
like three hours because I hadnothing in the tank, because I

(01:12:10):
was on a sugar diet, because mybody was still feeding off of
glucose, not anymore.
I would just go intoketogenesis and my brain would
be happy about that.
Dead, rotten cells.
Not so much because I'd be in astate of endophagy and yeah,
you know you feel a little bittired after.
But I bounced right back inabout 30 minutes as soon as I
had a good carnivore dinner.

(01:12:32):
That night that was my onlymeal.
I felt fantastic.
So I went to the gym the nextday just as strong as I normally
would be, despite the fact thatI fatigued my body cutting one
of the largest trees I've evercut in my life.
That was downed in a windstorm.
So, as a 58-year-old male whohad assistance from about a
27-year-old man, I was able tokeep up with him.

(01:12:53):
He's very strong and I did allthe cutting and he did all the
all the lifting and we were agreat team and that's a good
place for me to be.

Graham (01:13:05):
Yeah, there's not much more I can add to that.
Um, eating enough protein, um,in, you know, can avoid that
potential muscle loss.
Uh, because your body needsprotein to build those muscles
and rebuild those muscles.
One of the things that peopleshould consider and investigate

(01:13:26):
if they're thinking about well,am I going to the keto carnivore
route or am I going to go tothe more expensive GLP-1
receptor?

Stephen (01:13:35):
route.

Graham (01:13:36):
And this is all the rage these days.
As far as the drugs that youget injections on and all of a
sudden you're losing weight,there's a number of drawbacks to
that process.
Certainly, those GLP-1 drugscan be beneficial in certain
scenarios, but one of the thingsthat you should consider and

(01:13:58):
should investigate is thepercentage of muscle loss that's
a part of that actual overallweight loss.
That's something to look into.
Look into when that peak weightloss actually matures.
It can be around 20 monthspotentially matures.

(01:14:24):
It can be around 20 monthspotentially.
What it's generally doing isit's creating new, non-insulin
resistant fat cells.
It's creating about 13% morefat cells in your body.
If you stop taking those GLP-1drugs, you are likely to gain
13% more weight than the daybefore you started taking the

(01:14:44):
GLP-1 drugs, not to mention theother side effects that are
involved in it.
Certainly not trying to talkpeople out of that process.
My recommendation is to lookinto all of those things to make
sure that this is thecommitment that you want to.
You know the road that you wantto be committed to, versus
potentially changing the typesof foods that you're eating and

(01:15:10):
potentially getting to the sameresults without all of those
downsides, which includes muscleloss over time.
Stephen, I wanted to talk about, uh, one other one here, sure,

(01:15:33):
so the last one on our list, uh,stephen, um, and this is
something that I've certainlyexperienced, uh, earlier on, um,
less so, um, since is the carbcravings and the addiction.
This can be a very realaddiction.
This can be sort of I miss thetaste and the crunch of those of
my favorite chips versus.

(01:15:55):
You know, I need somethingright now because I'm hungry and
I'm going to resort back to myNeanderthal brain of grabbing
whatever the fastest thing thatI can possibly get, which could
be a bagel, a sandwich, chips,cookies, ice cream, you name it.
Everybody's got their carbcravings.

(01:16:16):
One of the things that I didearly on is I had selected
certain things at the grocerystore that I could eat quickly,
and I'll just focus on a couple.
I tried to find dried beef orbiltong.
It's hard to find those things,but there are ones out there,

(01:16:40):
so if I was hungry I would chewon that.
You know, dried beef or biltongfor a while it's like, you know
, chewing on kind of celery-likebeef, where you're actually
chewing and the art of chewingactually, I think,
psychologically makes you feellike you know your body's
getting enough food, so I didn'tneed a lot of it, but it was

(01:17:01):
something to chew on.
Really good sourced olives, Ifound were surprisingly good at
getting me to feel full, and Iwould need maybe two or three.
So when I say good quality,they're usually, you know, twice
as big as you'd normally see inthe plastic containers.
These are the glass jar ones.
Yes, they're a little moreexpensive.

(01:17:22):
I didn't need to eat a lot ofthem.
A jar of these would last me,you know, a month or two in the
fridge.
But I found when I had thosecravings early on, I grabbed two
or three of those olives,popped in my mouth, maybe a
piece of cheese, and I was goodto go until the next time.
I was going to eat next morningor whatever, and I tried to

(01:17:43):
avoid eating anything within,say, two or three hours before I
was ready to go to bed becauseI wanted to get a head start on
the fasting, on the autophagy,and I wanted to carry that into
the next day, where I get up inthe morning and the first thing
I do is I'll have myelectrolytes and I'll go for a
very long walk to again takeadvantage of that autophagy I

(01:18:07):
want to hear about you knowanything early on with you as
far as carb cravings go, andwhether and how did you mitigate
those roadblocks, and are youstill experiencing that today?

Stephen (01:18:22):
Yeah, I guess the most important thing is I would start
the conversation with yourfridge and inform your fridge
and say I'm the one that decideswhat goes in you.
You don't tell me what goes inme, so your fridge is not your
greenhouse, your fridge is notthe local farm, unless you've
got some kind of magic going onin the back of your fridge.
So you decide what's in there,and same with your pantry is go

(01:18:44):
through it and just don't bringit home.
You can't crave what you don'thave.
And my wife is excellent at this, because I'll go through the
litany like I'm teasing a smallchild that's looking forward to
Christmas and go hey, just wentby the ice cream store and it
doesn't appear that busy.
Would you like me to get yousome?
Whatever her favorite is bananaboat or something.

(01:19:05):
And she's like no, I might dohorrible things to you if you
come home with it.
And then, of course, I'm goingto eat it.
So I take that as fair warningand I don't do it, or I'll be at
the store, because peoplesometimes and I'm guilty of this
because the way I was raisedwith food I think food is love,
love is food, and sometimes whatyou're giving your partner is

(01:19:25):
not ultimately in their bestinterest, especially if you know
that they have certainaddictions or issues.
In my particular case, my wifewas addicted to soda.
I never really drank a lot ofpop until I met her and then all
of a sudden it was like Icouldn't get through the day
unless I had two or three Cokesor Pepsis.

(01:19:45):
And then suggesting that, oh,you know, I'm doing the healthy
route because I'm doing it witha diet Pepsi.
Do a little bit of chemicalresearch on what that's doing to
your body as well.
You may have fooled your bloodsugar, but that's nothing else.
You haven have fooled yourblood sugar, but that's nothing
else.
You haven't fooled anythingelse, including your microbiome.
So just general food avoidanceis key to those cravings.
And yeah, every once in a whilemy wife and I will scream into

(01:20:09):
the ether and go oh, we wouldsell a child for a chance to get
a Reese's Pieces right now, abag of chips and a two liter of
Coke Again.
Of course I'm joking about allof that with what same as the
dinosaurs?
But I'm using a bit of humor tosuggest that, you know, be kind
to yourself and just don't putyourself in a position where it

(01:20:29):
becomes a temptation.
And if it does and you're at aparty and you find yourself
reaching for the latest Doritosbecause you were addicted to
those, or you used to have skinthat was orange, because you ate
so many Cheetos, then have oneor two and then just stop and
say, can I stop?
And if you can't, then don'tput yourself in that scenario,

(01:20:51):
just stay away from that bowlfor the rest of the evening.
So I think it fundamentallycomes back to this practice of
well-being in terms of what weconsume and how we consume it.
Where we consume it, what isour body doing at the time that
we're doing it will help.
I mean, I walked by somebeautiful bags of chips when I

(01:21:11):
went and I picked up my Greekyogurt today I went wow, you
know, I remember I used to buythose.
Oh my, they got family formatsize, wow.
And then I also remembered Icould sit in front of the TV,
quasi bored, and kill thatentire bag of chips with my wife
, with us bantering back andforth on which one of the two of
us ate more of the two poundsof chips that were in there.

(01:21:34):
Right, and then I'd have therubber tire the next morning
around my belly to prove thatthat's what I ate, and I didn't
feel good all day.
And you wonder why?
Because you know there's sugarin those Like that turns into
sugar, those potato chips, andthey have maltodextrin, which is
just a nonsense word for moresugar.
So I think fundamentally that'swhat it comes down to is if you
are disciplined enough, you havethat conversation with your

(01:21:56):
fridge enough you have thatconversation with your fridge.
You have those conversationsideally in your head and not out
loud, so people don't thinkyou're crazy in the grocery
store going you don't need totake that or you don't need to
buy that.

Graham (01:22:14):
Your body will thank you .
Yeah, and the one thing thatI'll add and I'm not sure how
well known this is yourmicrobiome is made up of a
number of living things bacteriaand there's more bacteria in
your own microbiome than thereare people on earth, many more.
Your microbiome is actuallypretty critical to your survival

(01:22:39):
and how healthy you are.
There is a symbioticrelationship with that bacteria.
One of the things that peoplemay not understand is there's a
lot of different kinds ofbacteria and there are
beneficial bacteria and thereare bacteria that are not
beneficial.
I'll just use the example ofbacteria that prefers carbs

(01:23:21):
versus bacteria that prefersgoing to disappear over time or
at least be significantlyreduced, so they are not the
loudest bacteria screaming inyour microbiome that I want this
kind of food.
So it is going to take some timefor you to get to the point
where, if you're eating you know, let's call it a strict

(01:23:44):
carnivore diet for the timebeing which is, you know,
quality protein, qualitysaturated fats the bacteria that
craves the carbs that you'vebeen addicted to in the past is
going to be reduced and die off,and so they are not going to
scream at you to get those carbsinto your stomach.

(01:24:10):
What's going to scream at youare the ones that are enjoying
the carnivore you knowhigh-protein, high-fat lifestyle
that you've moved to, and Ican't remember how early on this
happened, but it was within acouple of months of going to a
strict sort of keto carnivorelifestyle where I was sitting

(01:24:33):
around and all of the foods thatI absolutely loved and would
blindly grab a handful of, youknow, whatever it might be the
bagel, the sandwiches, the minisandwiches, the chips, the
cookies, whatever was around ata party, I would be constantly

(01:24:58):
grabbing something and eating it.
And I remember sitting thereone day and I looked around and
I thought I don't even have aninterest in eating these things
anymore.
And to get to that point where,all of a sudden, my body's not

(01:25:19):
even looking at that as food,much less craving it.
And it was a real eye-opener tothe point where I realized I
had sort of adjusted mymicrobiome that was now craving
the things that were actuallyhealthy for me.

Stephen (01:25:36):
Stephen, what's with you?
I really liked what you justsaid, graham, because you
actually reminded me of a studythat I just looked at that may
tie in the microbiome and I'mgoing to propose to our
listeners they can let us know,but I think we should do a
session on strictly themicrobiome, some things you can
do, and I'll give you a littleteaser, because you're the one

(01:25:57):
that prompted it, from thosecomments.
So, interestingly, there was arecent study that talked about
the possibility that and I'mgoing to pronounce it the best I
can two studies related toAcromantia muscifila and
Lactobacillus species may haveanti-cancer effects and while

(01:26:18):
other research may indicate thatlactobacillus can also
contribute to tumor growth insome pancreatic cancers, it
certainly is promoting the ideathat more studies are required.
So, generally, with healthycells or even just marginally
heading in the direction ofcancer cells, it looks like
there's some promising research.

(01:26:39):
What does it really say?
It says that basically, youhave an anti-cancer machine
built into your body.
That, at least, I can't sayit's the start or the end.
I'm not an endocrinologist, butit's certainly a part of the
solution to staying healthy andcertainly regaining your health.
Because, interestingly and Ithought there might be an

(01:27:01):
interesting connection aroundthis and we're picking on one
that's particularly fatal andthat's what the study was about.
But I mentioned lactobacillusspecies.
Where do you think we can findlactobacillus species as a
bacteria?
What foods do you think containit?
So it's mostly fermented dairyproducts, actually, and so your

(01:27:22):
kefir, your yogurts, sauerkraut,kimchi, certainly pickles if
you're making your own pickles,and you had mentioned the olives
and if they're fermented, thenyou would be getting it there.
And what's interesting is whathurts?
Let's go to the next step.
Well, what hurts lactobacillus?
Because it's naturallyoccurring in your microbiome.

(01:27:43):
The biggest thing high intakesof certain sugars can negatively
impact lactobacillus.
So there's your answer rightthere, and that's what can cause
dysbiosis.
So all those ultra processedfoods I was consuming, all the
other things.
That's why I had four dysbioticbacteria in my stomach, because
I was growing the wrong onesand I was low on the others.
So you know again, I just gofull circle to our discussions

(01:28:07):
before.
When you take care of yourself,take care of your body, it'll
take care of you.
My symptoms for IBS have allbut disappeared.
I've cut out ultra process.
I don't consume sugar.
I swear like I have some kindof disorder Anytime I grab
yogurt.
Bring it home.
I haven't paid attention.
It's got 16 grams of sugar init.
I just brought one home theother day, my wife's delighted

(01:28:29):
and I took one spoonful at itand just spit it across the room
because I haven't had anythingthat sweet in my mouth in years.
So this is what keeps usvigilant is to pay attention to
our bodies and you know, theevidence is catching up to the
reality of what our bodies arealready doing.
They don't need those doctors'permission to do what they do.
They need our recognition andacknowledgement of what it is

(01:28:50):
that your body requires.
So do your analysis, do yourstudy, take care of your
microbiome and what you'reconsuming, whether it's kefir,
if it's sauerkraut and it'samazing, prior to getting off of
the sugary diet, I'd soonerpick a fight with Mike Tyson
than eat three spoonfuls ofsauerkraut.

(01:29:10):
I hated it.
It was too sour.
I didn't like it.
It made me angry.
Now I eat it and I don't evenfind it sour, and I consume a
lot of lemons.
I don't find them sour anymoreeither.
I you know I used to.
It used to really bother me andit doesn't anymore.

Graham (01:29:27):
I, uh, I.
I was the same and I went fromuh, not really liking it to
making my own Um.
I need to make another batch Um.
If I remember, it was thecabbage chopped up.
Fill it up with water and add4% anywhere between 2% and 4% of

(01:29:49):
the best salt that you can findand let it sit there for call
sure that it's full.
Recommend getting a sauerkrautpot because it allows for the
gases to escape but ensures thatno contaminants get in.

(01:30:11):
It's a relatively cheapinvestment, often looks great on
your countertop and now you canmake your own sauerkraut.
And is there anything bettercan make your own sauerkraut,
and is there anything betterthan making your own food?
What a great way to leave offthe podcast, stephen.
Thank you so much.
One of the things that I loveabout this podcast is I walk

(01:30:31):
away smarter every single timebecause I've learned something
from Stephen, and I want tothank you for another great
episode, stephen.
Thanks very much, graham, and Iappreciate it.
All right, everybody, thank youfor listening to another
episode of Lessons for theKeto-Verse.
We will see you next time,thanks for tuning into Lessons
from the Keto-Verse.

Speaker 1 (01:30:51):
Join Stephen and Graham next time for more keto
tips and stories to fuel yourhealth.
Subscribe, share and let's keepthe keto vibes going.

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