June 29, 2025 • 57 mins
Challenging everything you thought you knew about healthy aging, Zoe's story will make you question whether what we call "aging" might actually be inflammation in disguise. After spending more than two decades as a vegetarian, Zoe's life took an unexpected turn when her daughter developed severe epilepsy, leading her to research historical treatments that predated modern pharmaceuticals. What she discovered changed both their lives.
In this eye-opening conversation, Zoe reveals how transitioning to a carnivore diet transformed her health in ways she never anticipated. The mental clarity she experienced after just three months was revolutionary—eliminating the afternoon brain fog, boosting her energy levels, and allowing her to continue running when friends her age had long since stopped due to pain and inflammation. "I'm not really fat, I'm just really inflamed," she explains, capturing how misunderstood the connection between diet and physical symptoms often is.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is Zoe's practical approach to implementing this lifestyle. From her "three-bite rule" for handling special occasions to strategies for fasting and autophagy, she offers accessible entry points for anyone curious about carnivore eating. Her emphasis on progress over perfection creates space for real-world application without the guilt that often accompanies dietary changes. "This is not about being perfect," she insists, "it's about making changes that create momentum."
Whether you're struggling with unexplained health issues, curious about alternatives to the standard Western diet, or simply interested in maintaining vitality throughout your life, Zoe's journey offers powerful insights into how our food choices might be affecting us in ways we've never considered. Ready to rethink what healthy aging really means? This conversation might just be the beginning of your own transformation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Lessons from the Keto-Verse.
Join Stephen and Graham as theyexplore the keto lifestyle with
tips, science and stories toboost your health.
This podcast isn't medicaladvice.
Consult your healthcare advisorfor any health-related issues.
Get ready to fuel your primalpower.
Graham (00:19):
Hi everybody and welcome to Lessons from the Keto-Verse.
This is episode nine and wehave a special guest with us
today which I'm very excited tointroduce.
And first of all, why don't wemake sure that Stephen says hi,
hello Stephen.
Stephen (00:37):
Hey Graham, Great to be here.
Thank you.
Graham (00:40):
All right, excellent.
So I am very, very happy tointroduce our guest guest, zoe.
Zoe, thank you so much forjoining.
Zoe has an incredible story totell.
I'm looking forward to Stephenand I asking her some questions
and hearing all about her veryinteresting story.
Thank you, zoe, for joiningStephen, and I can't wait to get
(01:01):
into the story, but first wouldyou be able to tell us a little
bit about yourself?
Zoe (01:08):
Wow, that's quite an introduction.
I hope I don't disappointanybody.
Yes, sure, I'm so happy to behere.
Thank you so much for asking meto be here here, and how I
would introduce myself, I guess,is I am, as we, as I believe we
all are an evolutionary soulhaving a temporary human
(01:30):
experience, and we all reallyneed to honor our avatar, our
vessel, and this became more andmore apparent to me as I became
older and so I started lookingat how can I be as healthy as
possible for as long as possible, and a very good friend of mine
(01:51):
was also very keenly interestedin this and, to be quite honest
, you know he deserves a lot ofthe credit because he would send
me things that were just reallycompelling.
And then, at around the sametime, maybe a year later, my
daughter got diagnosed withepilepsy, and that is basically
a term for we don't know whyyou're having seizures.
(02:13):
That's what epilepsy means andI.
She was prescribed all kinds ofmedication.
Of course, they all have sideeffects, and the medications
were not working.
She was still continuing tohave very, very intense, long
lasting seizures where she wouldstop breathing, she would lose
consciousness.
We had staples on the front ofher head staples on the back of
(02:35):
her head.
It was really concerning, andso I started to do some research
myself on YouTube and I foundphysicians and history, I guess,
of how epilepsy and seizureswere treated in the 1920s with
(02:56):
diet, and they were all on acarnivore diet or a keto diet
high fat, low carb, high proteindiet and this actually not only
reduced seizures but many, manytimes eliminated them
completely.
And there is a physician inToronto, a Toronto Western
Hospital, who is very dedicatedto this, and all he does is he
(03:20):
meets with people who haveseizures and he helps them to be
on the keto diet.
He first assesses, of course,whether or not they're a good
candidate for it, and so this isa testament, in my opinion, to
the fact that this actuallyworks.
So, fortunately for us, we didnot need to do that.
Erin's seizures have stoppedwith naps, of all things, so we
(03:47):
have not introduced her to thisdiet, but I am eating this diet
as much, or this way of eating.
I'm on this woe for as much ofmy days as possible, because I
just feel so much better.
Inflammation is reduced.
Stephen (04:06):
That's great, zoe.
Thank you very much, stephenhere.
My first question to you, zoe,you initially explored the
carnivore diet as a potentialtreatment for your daughter's
absolute epilepsy, as youmentioned, a condition for which
the ketogenic diet, as youmentioned, was originally
developed.
Can you share what led you toinvestigate this dietary
approach for her, originallydeveloped?
Can you share what led you?
Zoe (04:25):
to investigate this dietary approach for her the research
that I did on YouTube and theresearch that I did in medical
journals talking about howepilepsy was treated in the
1920s, prior to pharma, and thenalso our urologist at Toronto
Western asked us if we wanted totry that, and I said absolutely
(04:46):
so.
She referred us to DrBertolucci at Toronto Western,
who does that.
Stephen (04:51):
Great yeah.
Thank you Over to you, Graham.
Graham (04:54):
Yeah, so, zoe, you'd mentioned this earlier and along
my journey I had learned aboutthis as well around.
The ketogenic diet being, youknow, has a rich history in
managing epilepsy.
It was the original reason whythe ketogenic diet being, you
know, has a rich history inmanaging epilepsy.
It was the original reason whythe ketogenic diet was designed.
I think most people don't knowthat, and so why do you think
this treatment has faded frommainstream conversations,
(05:18):
considering there was somesuccess at the time, 100 years
ago, and how relevant do youbelieve it remains today?
Zoe (05:24):
Oh my gosh, that is such an awesome question, graham.
Because just a bit of backstoryprior to Aaron's seizures
stopping knock on wood we wentto the what's called the EMU,
the epilepsy monitoring unit,where they they gradually take
everybody off their meds, theyhave electrodes on their heads
and they basically, as seizuresare induced, and then they
(05:46):
record all of that to find outwhere the seizure is starting in
the brain and how it's all,because it's very, very unique
to everyone, and some people areeligible for brain surgery
where they remove a portion ofthe brain a very small portion,
of course and people have hadreally good results this way,
and that's what we were actuallyhoping for.
(06:07):
And nobody on the unit wastalking about this diet.
Nobody on the unit knew aboutthis diet, and I've also joined
at the time I joined severalsocial media groups, different
platforms, to support peoplewith epilepsy and their seizures
, because a lot of them, can'tdrive anymore, they can't work
anymore, they can't even bealone anymore.
(06:29):
It really impacts people's livesand they didn't know anything
about it either.
Nobody's talking about it,they're just talking about
pharmaceuticals.
So you know, I don't think it'sany secret that pharmaceuticals
are playing more and more andmore of a role in the human
condition and you know, we'vemoved away from plant medicine
(06:51):
and from doing what our you know, great, great grandmothers knew
how to do.
And it's just, yeah, it'sreally concerning.
Stephen (07:02):
That's a great response , zoe.
That's a great response, zoe.
So for my next question, if youdon't mind, many epilepsy
medications come withsignificant side effects.
Could you share your daughter'sexperiences with these
medications and how they shapedyour approach to her health?
Zoe (07:17):
yeah, we're very, very fortunate.
We have an amazing neurologistand I told her you know, one of
the things that I love about mydaughter and her happiness is
just what a joyful being she is.
Naturally, she wakes up happy,she goes to sleep happy, and her
seizures come on when she'sexcited, not stressed.
(07:39):
A lot of people get it whenthey're stressed, but she would
get them when she was reallyhappy and excited, sadly.
And so I was very clear withthe neurologist that I did not
want her to be put on amedication that would impact her
mood, because a lot of them do,and some of them quite severely
.
They can make people very angry, resulting in job losses,
relationship breakdowns, andsome of them can make them very
(08:03):
sleepy because they're know,very sedating.
A lot of them anti-seizuremedications.
So, erin, we were veryfortunate we didn't have too
much in the way of side effectsother than her hearing seems to
be different.
Her speech is definitelydifferent.
Is that the medication?
Is that the seizures?
You know definitively, I can'tsay um, because the two sort of
(08:27):
happened at the same time, butshe certainly has less energy on
the medications, but we aregradually taping her off them
now, so that is, uh, beingresolved.
But yeah, a lot of thesemedications have a lot of
different side effects and theyaffect everybody you know very
uniquely yeah.
Graham (08:49):
So one of the things that, um, I admire about you is
you not only listen tohealthcare professionals, uh,
advocating um for for yourfamily, um, at the same time,
you also did your own research.
Um, you know some people dothat not.
You know some people do that.
Not everybody does that.
Some people just trust thehealth care system implicitly.
(09:10):
Some people want to be informedby the health care system and
do their own homework to makesure that they're getting the
right information for theirfamily.
This is connected.
The next question I have isconnected to that.
How did you come about adoptingthe carnivore diet and how did
you begin your own journeyaround it?
(09:31):
We'd really, really love to wasa vegetarian from the time.
Zoe (09:47):
My mom was a very big carnivore we're Australian and
she would have lamb chops forbreakfast, you know, and I, once
I found out where meat camefrom, I couldn't eat it anymore.
It was just a moral dilemma forme.
I loved animals and I justcouldn't imagine, you know.
So I didn't.
I was a vegetarian for I don'tknow over 20 years.
Uh, I didn't eat meat.
(10:07):
And, um, I had a hard timeeating meat and I guess I just
thought well, you know what do Ihave to lose?
What I don't know, what I don'tknow, and maybe I'll feel even
better on a higher meat diet.
So that's what I did.
I kind of introduced moreprotein into my life, into my
(10:32):
days, and then I just realized Iguess I realized with my own
digestion and my own issues thatI was having, which were never
really diagnosed, you know, ibs.
Well, we don't know what'sgoing on, but really it's
probably oxalates coming fromfruits and vegetables and
(10:52):
everything is so, unfortunately.
I don't want to sounddepressing, but I feel like our
soil is so polluted that we'regrowing these things in and with
all of the pesticides and justthe environment, I just don't
feel like we're eating.
When we're eating fruit andvegetables, it's having an
impact on me and my gut becauseit ruined it, ruined my
(11:18):
microbiome.
You know, metabolic health is areally metabolic health is a
really, really important thing,and when we are eating a high
meat diet we are, or animalprotein diet, we are getting
lots of really good diversity inour gut with that bacteria
(11:38):
which is so critical, and forthe longest time I would try to
replace it with the stuff and Iwould pay hundreds of dollars to
have this stuff shipped in acooler to keep it cold and to
keep the bacteria alive, butnone of it really actually works
.
So I'm just finding that I'mfeeling better, I have more
energy, I have more clarity, Ihave less digestive issues with
(12:01):
the high protein diets, and so Ihave.
I start my day with that.
Um, also, I found a woman onYouTube, the glucose goddess,
who talked about how.
You know the thing that's soimportant about insulin spikes.
What hurts us more thananything is not just having high
(12:22):
blood sugar or high hurts usmore than anything is not just
having high blood sugar or highwhatever that.
I think it's AIF, the, theacronym, but it's the spikes.
And so when we have glucosefruit, for example, or fructose
on a empty stomach, it reallyspikes our insulin and it makes
it very, very difficult for ourbody to come back down again,
(12:43):
for insulin levels to become, orsugar levels to become, normal
again.
And yeah, so that was anotherreason because I used to have a
big bowl of fruit for breakfast.
I thought I was doing the rightthing, canada's Food Guide and
all that good stuff.
Right Turns out, no, not really, Because then I would want to
have a big nap.
I thought, oh my gosh, why am Iso tired?
(13:05):
I just had fruit because of thespike.
And then the crash.
Stephen (13:09):
So yeah, yeah, that's absolutely a great insight.
I mean, we've talked about thisin previous broadcasts, about
how we all found our way to thisparticular carnivore diet.
I too, like you, was vegetarianat one point and it didn't work
for me either.
I was actually getting Inoticed it in the gym and so
(13:32):
forth.
I was losing muscle mass and Iwas having difficulty pushing
the same amount of weight, and Iwas attributing that to my age.
So I definitely understandwhere you're coming from and, as
you know, as you transitionedto the carnivore diet, zoe, what
were some of the key benefitsyou noticed, especially when you
contrasted to where you wereformerly, as a vegan vegetarian?
Zoe (13:57):
Right, Well, certainly, energy wise, I just had way more
energy.
I didn't even know, see, Ididn't know, but I didn't know.
I didn't know because I like torun in the morning, so I didn't
know when I was going for myruns, when I wasn't eating
enough protein.
I would say that I thought Ifelt pretty good, but now you
(14:20):
know, eating a carnivore diet, Ican realize how much more
energy I have, how much moreclarity I have to like I don't
have that rain fog at three inthe afternoon.
The other wonderful thing aboutbeing on carnivore is cravings
dissipate cravings, for, youknow, stuff that really doesn't
(14:44):
serve us.
Um, it's, it's fun in themoment, I guess, or so we think
it will be, and um, it justleaves us feeling like I would
feel hung over, you know.
So those are the main thingsthe energy, the clarity, the
mental clarity and the lack ofdigestive issues.
Graham (15:12):
So, zoe, I think this is such a big deal.
Stephen and I have talked aboutthis sort of brain fog and
sometimes it gets to the pointwhere you actually realize
you're feeling this brain fog.
But I think a lot of people maynot even realize.
They chalk it up to being old,they chalk it up to stress, they
chalk it up to genetics, theychalk it up to a bunch of things
(15:35):
outside their control,potentially, and I'm wondering
if we can expand on that.
So, reflecting on yourexperience through the carnivore
diet, maybe you can comparethat to your vegetarian diet.
How did you know that you hadthis brain fog and at what point
(15:58):
during the carnivore journeymaybe it's an amount of time did
you start to get this mentalclarity and how has it improved
your life?
Zoe (16:10):
So, with these physicians that I found on YouTube, who
have left Western medicine toyou know, help people understand
much more about theirphysicality, their bodies, their
metabolic health, becausethat's something that physicians
(16:30):
in general just don't discuss.
Through following them, Irealized that fructose has been
heavily linked to Alzheimer's.
Fructose has been heavilylinked to Alzheimer's.
So I thought that that was veryinteresting, because I noticed
that my father is eating moreand more sugar.
He's in his 80s now.
(16:52):
He eats very little proteinBecause he's eating more sugar.
His body craves more sugarBecause he's eating more sugar.
His taste buds are screamingfor sugar, you know it's also
everything in his body isscreaming for more sugar.
So this is, this is the problemSugar just begets more sugar and
more, um, it causes stickinessin the, in the actual cells of
(17:17):
our body and our brains, and itand then our cells don't know
what they are.
So this is, you know, part ofthe problem and this is how we
get rogue cells and precancerouscells becoming cancerous.
The cure for cancer isprevention people, and we do
prevention with really healthymetabolic states, and we do that
(17:42):
with our way of eating.
So that's just my, you know,unhumble opinion, I suppose, and
did I answer your?
Graham (17:52):
question.
Yeah, no, you certainly did,and I'm interested in sort of
that part too, because I brokethat question up and into maybe
more complicated than it neededto be, but the mental clarity,
talk about that.
You know how long did it takefor?
You to realize your mentalclarity and how has it changed
your life?
Zoe (18:11):
Okay, I don't know if I can .
I don't know, maybe maybe threemonths or something, like it
wasn't right away.
I mean, there were days where Iwould think, wow, do I ever
feel so much better eating allthis meat, you know, eating all
this protein, and I would try toget my dad to do it.
And so I think too, I'mpostmenopausal.
(18:31):
So women who are perimenopausalor menopausal, they get told oh
, it's just your hormones orit's just baby brain, blah, blah
, blah when they're pregnant.
And I just don't believe that.
I really believe that if theywere eating a carnivore diet or
as close to it you know, noteverybody can go full on
carnivore, but like it's noteven cheap either, too right,
(18:53):
that's something else to takeinto consideration.
Not every family would be ableto afford to do this, but as
much protein as they can, ifthey can even just replace one
carbohydrate meal with moreprotein, I think that they would
be better off.
And and so that would be, youknow, my, my message to people.
(19:16):
It's not about being perfect,it's about progress and the
clarity I would say maybe I feltafter about three months.
But I think too that as peopleage like maybe listeners out
there have parents who are, whoare getting older and you're
seeing that they're I maybe askthem about their diet.
See, my dad's very independentand he doesn't live with me or
(19:38):
anything.
So I have to ask him okay,what'd you have for breakfast?
Oh, a granola bar and grapes.
Well, what did you have forlunch?
Oh, I had a sandwich, you know,like lots of bread and lots of
carbs.
And then he doesn't even eatdinner sometimes, or he'll have
a banana, it's just, it's just.
Or a bran muffin, or you know,it's that easy kind of food.
So I think that, if anyone'sentrepreneurial out there and
(20:01):
listening, it might be reallyhelpful for us to have more
carnivore snacks.
I find that there's a real gapin the market.
The only thing that I've comeup with and I didn't come up
with it, of course I'm on groupsand somebody else suggested it
but the bacon rinds that arecooked in lard, they're really
(20:22):
awesome.
And that's another thing too,right, guys?
Oils, seed oils they are reallyreally bad.
And according to Dr Eric Berg,what really creates obesity,
even more than sugar, more thanfat, is starch.
There's modified starches inall of our processed foods.
They come under a plethora ofdifferent names.
(20:44):
So I highly recommend that youdo some research on that,
listeners, if you're interested,if you're feeding your families
out there, especially your kids.
I don't know why it causes suchobesity.
I don't know what.
I just heard him say that, andDr Eric Berg is amazing.
Graham (21:03):
So yeah, it's actually.
Um, this is a brilliant point.
So glucose, um, it raises bloodsugar, a1c's.
Uh, insulin needs to get thatsugar into the cells, otherwise
it stays in the bloodstream,which causes serious damage to
the body.
It can potentially kill you ifyou don't get that glucose into
(21:26):
the cells.
The problem with starches isthat it turns into glucose so
quickly that if you have a verystarchy dinner, you are
overwhelming the body with theamount of glucose that you're
putting into the body.
You've got an enormous amountof sugar in the bloodstream and
your body is going into a dangerzone to try and get that sugar
(21:46):
into the cells.
You do that enough times,you're ending up with insulin
resistance and all sorts ofproblems come about from that.
Stephen.
Stephen (21:56):
Yeah, actually I just build on that for a second.
We talked about this in aprevious episode as well, zoe
where you know the body canactually run on three grams of
sugar in it in the system.
That's all it requires from ametabolic perspective, and I
won't name a particular pop orsoda for those in the us, but
all you need to do is spinaround a can at your local
convenience store and see 29grams, 31 grams, 32 grams.
(22:20):
I'm not talking about theenergy drinks, I've seen them
over 100 grams.
So your body has to metabolizethat or try to metabolize that,
and you know, as a diabetic,that's just a non-starter.
I'd likely end up in thehospital, compromising my vision
and possibly other issues withmy organs.
(22:40):
So I mean, that's a really good, good point.
And then, just sort of bringingthis back full circle, you know
this episode sort of highlightsyour goal to stay as youthful
and vibrant as possible throughthis process, and we've heard
you speak to a few things likelike how you went about that and
why, ultimately, that's that'simportant to you.
So, reverting back to thecarnivore diet versus the vegan
(23:02):
diet, how do you feel thecarnivore diet better supports
you with this vision of stayingyouthful and vibrant?
Zoe (23:10):
so, um, yeah, I, I kind of, I'm kind of rethinking the word
youthful, because I feel likethe word youthful is synonymous
with how we look, unfortunately,right now.
But I guess I mean, I want tofeel as healthy as possible for
as long as possible andcarnivore, just.
I don't have inflammation, Idon't have, my back doesn't hurt
(23:33):
, my knees don't hurt after arun.
I was sitting at a table at awedding a couple of years ago
and I was sitting at the table,you know, with my guy and a
bunch of other women who allwould run, with the mother of
the bride, who I was my friendand that's why I was there, and
so we were all runners, but noneof them were running anymore
(23:55):
and they said, oh no, I can't, Ihaven't run in years.
And I looked at, you know, myperson and I said, wow, like
what's going on here?
Like am I drinking from thefountain of youth or something?
And it's just because I thinkthat the the way of eating.
Really, again, you know, ifthey would just cut out gluten,
cut out fructose, sugar and allthe stuff that, the seed oils,
(24:21):
all the things that are creatingthe inflammation.
It's not about eatinganti-inflammatory foods, it's
about cutting out the stuff thatcreates inflammation and
getting off the meds, and thenthere's, you know, cholesterol
and statins.
Like that's a whole other youknow conversation as well, or
maybe it's part of thisconversation, but I guess, yeah,
(24:42):
I just, I love the fact that Idon't feel inflamed and I was
going to get t-shirts made thatsay I'm not really fat, I'm just
really inflamed, because reallythat's what it is.
You know, when you go oncarnivore you end up releasing
so much water out of yourinterstitial tissue that's been
held there in the cells by allof this junk.
Graham (25:10):
It's interesting.
You say that Zoe and I'll tella little story Out of school.
The first time we chatted, along time ago, you told me how
old you were.
I didn't ask.
You told me how old you wereand my initial reaction was I
didn't believe you.
You look way younger old youwere.
I didn't ask, you told me howold you were and I, my initial
reaction was I didn't believeyou.
Uh, you look way younger thanyou, said, um, but I, I'm.
(25:30):
I.
I see a theme here with a lot ofpeople who are you know,
cutting, uh, listen, whetherit's a vegetarian, whether it's
uh, uh, uh, somebody on aketogenic diet, whether it's
somebody on a carnivore diet,the people that have cut out the
you know, the emulsifiers, thestarches, the sugars out of
their diets and understandingthe foods that turn into glucose
(25:52):
, which causes all theseproblems.
They all have the same thing incommon they all have a lot of
energy and they all look a lotyounger than they are, and
that's apt to the title of thisepisode.
I wanted to kind of dive intothe carnivore diet that you're
on.
What advice would you have forpeople out there that are, you
(26:15):
know, listening to this podcastand others thinking you know
what, I got nothing to lose.
Maybe I should give this a shot.
Think back to when you were inthat moment where you said you
know what I got nothing to lose.
Maybe I should give this a shot.
Think back to when you were inthat moment where you said you
know what?
I'm going to give this a try.
What practical advice would yougive somebody who said tell me
what you know.
Zoe (26:35):
First and foremost, again, I would give them the advice to
not beat themselves up, theadvice that to not beat
themselves up.
If they're not able to do itperfectly, first run out of it,
right out of the gate.
It's, it's like anything we getbetter as we practice.
So if you, if you're at anevent and there's something
(26:57):
there that you really want toeat, you know, don't beat
yourself up.
If you eat it, just start backon it again the next day or the
next meal.
Get back to carnivore or keto,as soon as you can Get back to
the food that's really going tofeed you and nourish your brain,
nourish your organs, and sothat would be the number one
(27:18):
thing.
This is not about perfection.
This is just about makingchanges that create, you know,
momentum for you, and that's howit happened for me.
It wasn't all at once, it wasintroducing more protein into my
diet and realizing, wow, Iactually do feel better and my
iron isn't low and my B12 isn'tlow, and I don't know if those
(27:40):
two things go together, but Ifeel like they did for me.
And then I would say, be asopen-minded as possible too,
because a lot of the groups thatI'm on, they really talk about
beef butter and eggs and beefbutter and eggs and I don't know
.
I love food.
I love the way food tastes andfeels in my mouth.
(28:02):
I love seafood.
So I don't just do beef butterand eggs, I also will have
salmon.
Sometimes I'll have a can ofsalmon for breakfast and I know
that probably sounds disgustingto a lot of people, but I have
it with a little bit of lemonjuice on it or apple cider
vinegar a little bit, and it'sjust delicious to me and I feel
like a million bucks.
(28:22):
I go into a meeting, I know whatI'm to me and I feel like a
million bucks.
I go into a meeting, I knowwhat I'm talking about, I feel
like I'm on my game, I'm able tobe productive, I have a great.
It just gets my my day off to areally great start.
So, yeah, I would say be as beas creative as you possibly can
with your meals so that youdon't become bored and start
(28:45):
looking for those things.
And also remember people toothat the longer you stay away
from sugar, the less thecravings are.
Those cravings will go away.
It's just it's like the firstthree months are not easy, and I
would also suggest that youjoin groups that are supportive.
Maybe let family members knowwho can be supportive.
(29:08):
Maybe even get someone to tryand do it with you, if that's
something that would be helpfulto you.
Stephen (29:14):
Yeah, I think that's good advice, zoe, and certainly
we appreciate that.
We spent a fair bit of timefocusing on food, and I'm
wondering if we couldpotentially shift gears for a
sec and maybe consider some ofthe other methods or tools that
you've rolled into your overallhealth care plan.
Zoe (29:45):
Like to specifically touch on, if I may, is how you've
worked or embraced fasting aspart of this this lifestyle and
if you don't mind sharing someof the benefits you experienced
with fasting and how it, youknow, complemented your
carnivore diet overall yeah,yeah, I love fasting and and I'm
referring to prolonged fastingand or intermittent fasting you
(30:05):
know some people are doing onemeal a day, 20 hours not eating
and then four-hour feedingwindow.
I started to do prolonged fastswhen I was listening to Jason
Fung physician Jason Fung onYouTube talking about the
benefits of autophagy.
I don't know if you guys havecovered this before.
(30:26):
Autophagy is when we don't feedour bodies any glucose or
anything except for water, ofcourse, and I also do
supplements too.
I do electrolytes that I makemyself with pink Himalayan salt
and magnesium, zinc andpotassium, because most of them
(30:47):
have most of the ones that youbuy, even at a health food store
, have sucralose and things likethat in them, sadly.
So I started doing prolongedfasting for the autophagy
benefits too, because your bodywill go, move through all of
your cells and use up all of thecells the rogue cells, the
(31:09):
precancerous cells, the cellsthe rat, the free radicals.
We don't want them.
So the body will use all ofthose up for fuel and will
produce brand new cells.
I mean, who doesn't want brandnew cells cells in their brains
and flowing through their bodies?
So that's why I started to doto fast and again I joined
(31:31):
groups.
I really love being with othersof like mind, whether we're
together physically or, you know, virtually or even, you know,
just digitally.
I find that extremely helpful.
I feel like I'm not so aloneand I just they inspire me a lot
of these people.
So I find that really, reallyhelpful and I think everybody
(31:53):
needs to kind of play with thefasting, you know, to see what
suits them.
Some people do rolling 48.
Some people do rolling 24.
Some people do a five day or a30 day fast.
I've only ever gone as long aseight days because I really like
to be physical and I find thatif I go more than eight days I
don't sleep as well and I findit harder to go for runs and
(32:16):
stuff like that.
So I start to miss too much ofmy life, and so then I go back
to feeding again.
Stephen (32:24):
I think too, like for those who are diabetics out
there and also some others we'vetalked about similar to me that
have issues with cortisol, I'vedone the extended fast.
I dropped 53 pounds in totalthrough intermittent fasting and
this diet.
But what I would say too toyour comment comment it kind of
builds on what you said, zoe isyou couldn't run, there was
(32:46):
other things.
So it starts to affect reallythat sort of balanced approach
like I can understand, like whenit was like me at 235, going
down to 183, uh, you know, thereI had to get a little bit
radical and and obviouslyexperience antophagy.
But what I would say too is nowthat my metabolic um stasis has
changed and I don't know if youfound the same, but because I
(33:07):
wear a CGM, I'm able to see theconsequences of cortisol affect
my sugar on an empty stomachwhere I fasted 24 or 30 hours
and I sort of have that sweetspot where I know I don't want
to revert over to cortisol andhave a negative effect.
So I'd only caution those likeme who are diabetics is,
(33:27):
certainly, if you have quite abit of weight to lose, you're
going to feed on that fat andthat energy burn.
You're probably going to beokay.
But if there's other factorsthat relate to your mental
well-being, mental fitness, ifyou have PTSD or other things
that are triggered or resultanyway, then I would suggest is
(33:48):
to start, for those people thatare out there is, start small
and see, see a large benefit andthen, uh, you know, keep line
of sight to how your body adaptsover time.
Um, what say you to that?
Uh, so, yeah, I.
Zoe (34:01):
I think that's such a great and such an important point to
make, and in some of thesegroups that I'm in, there are
people who are on mood disordermedications.
You know, they might havebipolar, and so I think that
it's very, very important to tryand find a friend, a fasting
friendly physician.
(34:22):
They are out there.
There are fewer and furtherbetween, of course, but there
are some physicians out therethat really do understand the
benefits of fasting, and if youcan find someone like that to
help you, if you are on somekind of medication for a mood
condition that you might have orany kind of other condition
(34:44):
that you might have, I wouldstrongly recommend that because,
yeah, I'm not on any medication, I'm not on any pharma
whatsoever, and you know so it'sdifferent for me, obviously.
Graham (34:59):
Yeah, how nice is it to be in your 50s and not be on any
medications.
I remember I'm going to do afollow-up MRI on my torn rotator
cuff from 20 plus years agoplaying baseball, and it was
feeling 90% better and I wantedto figure out if I could do
physio without doing any furtherdamage.
And when I went to the doctor,they make you fill out a form.
(35:25):
When I went to the doctor, theymake you fill out a form and it
was so satisfying to click no,no, no, no, no, no all the way
down the list and I wondered howmany people in their, you know,
50s, mid 50s, late 50s and onwere able to do that.
So it was sort of a little bitof a personal badge of honor for
myself to be able to say youknow, I took my health into my
(35:45):
own control.
And that's a follow-up question, zoe, for you here.
We've spoken at length, youknow, in this podcast series
about the importance of takingresponsibility for one's health.
I would say your firstresponder, your first health
care professional, needs to beyou, and then everybody else is
(36:06):
a complement to that.
What inspired this mindset foryou in taking control of your
own health, and how has itinfluenced your health choices
ever since you started doingthat?
Zoe (36:19):
Well, I guess you know, as we become more aware of what is
really truly going on with ourbody as I became, by becoming
more informed, you know lookingfor that information and I also
have just never wanted to bedependent on anything and I
remember going on a trip and Ihad all these medications.
(36:43):
In my 50s I was on a fewdifferent medications and I had
to have a note from thephysician.
You know as to why I wasbringing these meds into like
this resort you know, down inthe Caribbean, and I just
thought this is so.
It just felt very dehumanizingto me, I didn't like it is so.
(37:05):
It just felt very dehumanizingto me, I didn't like it.
And then I also just don't everwant to be in a situation where
I'm dependent on something, andwhat if I can't get it, you
know.
So I just made it my mission toget off the medications that I
was on, and a friend of mine,she was also on a similar
medication for sleeping and shewanted to get off it too, and
she paid a private clinic fourthousand dollars to help her do
(37:28):
it.
And I, um, I did not do that, Ijust did it myself.
I thugged it out and, um, sheis still on them and, uh, I have
been able to get off them.
And there's nothing better thanyou know that feeling, when
you're feeling nice and sleepyand and tired and relaxed and
(37:52):
you just fall asleep naturally,like it's just a really great
feeling, yeah, and supplementstoo, though, are very, very
critical, as as we.
I mean, I do think there arethings that we don't have as
much of as we get older, um, nomatter how fit or healthy we are
, it's just, you know, it's partof the human condition, so
supplements are really veryhelpful as well that's great, so
(38:18):
I thank you for that.
Stephen (38:19):
Now, um, just uh, just thinking of, as we've gone over,
a little bit of your routine.
Like you certainly mentionedthat, you started your meals
sometimes at breakfast, forinstance, breaking your fast, so
to speak.
So high protein Is that sort ofcommon, or could you just maybe
take a minute or two to walk usthrough what your typical diet
(38:40):
might look like from a day today as far as meals are
concerned?
Zoe (38:44):
yeah, so I try to have my.
I try to mostly do one meal aday.
I find that works really wellfor me and I try to have it at
around 4 in the afternoon.
So I go through the day with myblack coffee and salt.
Sometimes I put a little bit ofbutter in it because I really
(39:08):
love the fat and it really makesthe coffee very yummy Grass-fed
butter.
Oh, that's the other thing too.
I buy I started to buy my meatfrom local farms.
I'm very fortunate.
I live, you know, 60 kilometerseast of Toronto, so I'm very
close to, I live, you know, 60kilometers east of Toronto, so
I'm very close to a lot of farmsout here.
They're, they're grass fed andand and they're, they're
(39:31):
butchered there, you know, atthe farm and so, yeah, I have
one meal basically.
And if I know I'm going tosomething where I might be
tempted by different things,like even alcohol, you know,
like sometimes it is really funto have a drink with my friends,
(39:52):
I might, I might switch up my,I might adapt my way of eating
accordingly, so I might waitlonger to eat or I might, you
know.
But it is something that Ithink about it, it's something
that's a priority for meshopping, you know, meal prep,
(40:13):
that sort of thing.
If I know I'm going to be awayfrom home and I need to bring
something with me in my bag tomy son cause there won't be
anything there, I've even umdone.
You know, hamburger pattiesfrom McDonald's Like I think you
can get three patties.
I forget how much they are now.
But you know you can find waysto adapt.
(40:36):
But I hope that at some pointthis culture of ours will become
more carnivore friendly.
Graham (40:45):
Yeah, well said, you mentioned this earlier, zoe, and
it really resonated with mearound this idea of not feeling
hungry.
There was a moment where I thinkit was a couple of years into
this lifestyle and I had onecracker that was like the size
of two thumbs and about 15minutes, in 10 minutes, in my
(41:09):
stomach started growling and Ihadn't heard my stomach growl in
years and I realized I haven'tfelt hungry.
Most people don't understandwhat this means because they're,
you know, they, they, they takein the carbs, the uh, the
emulsifiers, um, the anythingthat's going to turn into, uh,
(41:31):
glucose, which then turns intoan insulin response, uh, which
uh, then eventually um, causeshypoglycemia, which is when
you're very hungry.
And then most of us, you know,we stop at a gas station and we
get, you know, whatever bagel orwhatever chips or whatever is
closest to us.
(41:51):
It's fast food for a reason.
So when you say one meal a day,a lot of people at home their
reaction is going to be I couldnever do that.
I'd be grabbing at the bagels,I'd be grabbing at the you know
toast, the peanut butter, thecakes, the, whatever.
My favorite snack is thechocolate bars.
Now that you're on thiscarnivore diet, do you feel that
(42:16):
it's, do you find that it'snecessary to snack or does your
eating pattern kind of keep yousatisfied throughout the day?
Zoe (42:26):
Oh yeah, it definitely keeps me satisfied.
And I think in the beginning,of course, you know, I was carb
addicted and I am always goingto be a sugarholic.
I mean, sugar is my kryptoniteand I still have days where I
struggle.
You know, I'm not gonna, I'mnot gonna pretend that my diet
(42:48):
or my way of eating is perfectevery single day, but I don't
beat myself up about it, youknow.
So what was the question?
Again, Sorry.
Graham (42:57):
It's around not feeling hungry.
Do you feel like you need tosnack throughout the day?
Zoe (43:02):
No, no, no, no.
And I and I feel sometimes, youknow, in the beginning I would
think about having a snack andthen I would have less energy,
right?
So when I think about having asnack, I think about how I want
to feel, and I really how I feel, how I want to feel, is more
important to me than what I'mgoing to have on my tongue and
(43:24):
my taste buds.
And let's be real, how good isthat dessert?
Is it ever really that good?
It's never that good.
It never is After three bites.
So that's another thing, too,that I would highly recommend to
people.
Let's say you're at a weddingor a party or some sort of a
special celebration and thereare special things being put out
(43:45):
that you love and that youdon't have very often.
Have three bites, you know, dothe three bite thing and then
just leave it, because afterthree bites it's diminishing
returns and you know you haven'truined things, you've just had
like a little bit of a blip, andthen it's so much easier to
stay on that way of eating andnot have those cravings come
(44:07):
back again.
Graham (44:09):
I want to jump into that , stephen, something Zoe said
around.
You know, after three bites Ifind the exact same thing I, you
know I tend to not havedesserts, but every now and then
, you know, I'll be in asituation where there is dessert
and it's been well prepared.
I generally have one bite and Ireally enjoy that one little
(44:35):
bite.
And one of the things that isunknown in the food industry is
that there's something calledemulsifiers.
We've talked about this in thepast.
A lot of food have emulsifiersand what emulsifiers do is they
instantly remove the taste ofthe thing that you just ate so
(44:57):
that you eat more.
An example would be next timeyou crunch into a chip, there's
that satisfaction of the crunchand then you get the taste and
then what you find is that chipis basically like tissue paper
in your mouth.
It's disappeared, you can'ttaste anything anymore and it's
(45:18):
telling your brain go haveanother chip.
There's even commercials aboutbet you can't just have one.
The reason they bet you justcan't have one is those
emulsifiers are encouraging youto continue to eat, to continue
to eat to try and get that taste.
If you mindfully take a biteand you just enjoy it for a
(45:39):
little bit and then you put itaway because you're not hungry,
because you've eaten enoughprotein and fat and you don't
need to fill your belly.
This is just about personalsatisfaction and taste buds.
You may find that that sugaraddiction over time disappears,
as you talked about earlier, zoe.
Stephen (45:59):
Yeah, that's a really good point that you made there.
There, graham, and I know we'vewe've kind of touched on this
actually.
So, as you said, you know, yourkryptonite is, in fact, uh,
sugar.
I can relate, I used to becalled cake face in the family
and obviously, uh, there'd be ahigh correlation between me and
cake, and I love your three bitestrategy and I'm also a huge
(46:21):
fan of the um, of the glucosegoddess, uh, grateful for her
expertise.
So it seems like you've modeleda lot of that.
But, um, you know, as, as we tryto avoid these things, uh, do
you find that, on in certainoccasions, it's more difficult
to steer away from sugar becauseit is so readily available?
You're traveling, you'resomewhere, your options are
(46:43):
limited, like, would you, forinstance, opt to go hungry and
I'm going to build on thisquestion.
I want to get your responsebecause I want to tell you a
little bit about what I recentlyexperienced but would you,
would you accept being hungryand, uh, call it a more extended
fast than you would ever revertback to having something with
sugar?
Do you have that discipline?
Zoe (47:05):
yeah, most of the time, like again, I mean, you know I'm
not perfect, I guess, but mostof the time, yeah, I would
definitely rather abstainbecause I don't want to feel
like crap afterwards.
I don't want to have that sugarcrash.
The other thing I shouldmention, too, is that when I do
the one meal a day.
I mean, it's a meal, man Like.
(47:25):
It's not a snack, it's a lot offood I eat until I'm satiated.
So I will have a ribeye withmelted butter and three eggs,
and you know, I might even havesomething else with it, but
something protein scallops orsomething.
(47:52):
I love seafood so much, um, soyeah, so that I don't typically
get hungry.
I guess my body's just got soused to fat burning and, um,
cause, you know I'm pretty goodat being fat adapted now, I
guess, and it's just, I don'tfeel that hunger.
I don't get the hunger.
It's really even when I'mfasting.
I used to be very, very hungrythe first two days.
(48:13):
I just don't feel hungry, Idon't know.
Stephen (48:16):
Yeah, that's great.
It's interesting because Irecently had to travel to see my
daughter, who lives severalhours from here, and I showed up
in that belly period betweenwhat would have been my first
meal of the day and when shewanted to have dinner, and
typically her style is to eat alittle later than I would
(48:39):
because, again, I try to managemy glucose prior to going to bed
.
So I thought and I haven't donethis in years I thought, well,
how bad could it be if I justhad the burger with just a tiny
little bit of bread?
And I didn't actually feelgreat prior to wanting to eat,
like I felt a little bitnauseous because I was probably
(49:01):
about 30 hours into a fast.
It was hot, as the weather ishere, my body was stressed from
sitting in the car for almostsix hours and I'd only been
consuming water.
So what was amazing is I hadsort of a little bit of
heartburn, kind of like yourgrowly stomach you're talking
Graham.
And then I committed the actand purchased, uh, just the
(49:24):
burger.
And, um, I don't drink sodas,but that particular day I did,
and 20 minutes after I ate it, Ilike immediately walked after
graham, and I've taught this toto our audience in the past is
go and walk.
If you get, you're intosomething you know it's not
going to be good for you.
Manage that, spike down, takethe head of the dragon off.
(49:44):
Tried all that.
Uh, 25 minutes after I stoppedwalking I was still stable and
then it shot from fromapproximately, I would say,
about about six, eight.
I went up to like 12.5, whichis quite high.
I felt so nauseous.
I walked about three miles thatafternoon because and
(50:06):
essentially I consume sugar witha little bit of meat around it
when you want to get right downto it, because of the starches
and because of the condimentsand all the bad stuff that they
put in those.
So to your point, I mean it'slike being hungover, I think,
was the best expression you had.
I don't know if you want tocomment about that.
Hung over, I think was the bestexpression you had.
I don't know if you want tocomment about that.
Otherwise, we'll turn the nextquestion over to Graham.
Zoe (50:28):
Yeah, I think you covered that off really well.
I think that we're always goingto feel the ramifications, the
negative ramifications, ofgiving ourselves a treat.
It is not a treat, it's poison,it's white poison.
It is not a treat, it's poison,it's white poison.
Sugar is, anyway, andeverything that turns into sugar
(50:54):
, and I think that the more thisbecomes mainstream, the more
awareness that's created aroundthis, the less we're going to
see ADHD and childhood obesityand childhood diabetes and all
of the and even cancers.
You know, I really, reallybelieve that we're going to see
a lot less of that.
Graham (51:13):
Yeah, here's hoping for sure, and I know Stephen has
experienced this, so I have nodoubt you've experienced this.
When you tell somebody maybethey're close to you, maybe
they're you know, a colleague,maybe there's somebody you you
know, you're chatting withwhatever at the water cooler and
(51:34):
you let them know that you'reeating you know a carnivore diet
, or a ketogenic diet or a highprotein fat diet, whatever you
want to call it and theimmediate reaction to that is
you must have high cholesterol,you're going to get scurvy.
No one can survive that way.
Just as an aside, this week Iwatched a show about a woman in
(51:59):
Western Canada who's been on thecarnivore diet for 65 years.
She can still jump over thefence in her early 80s, so she's
probably still waiting for thatscurvy to kick in.
But the question for you, zoe,with that little sort of
background, is, as youprogressed on the carnivore diet
(52:19):
is, as you progressed on thecarnivore diet, what signs or
changes in your body and healthreassured you that you were?
Zoe (52:28):
on the right path.
So I don't really see aphysician on the regular.
I mean, I do have tests done,as I need to as a 60 something
year old woman, um, but I so Idon't have any blood work, you
know, to show you or anythinglike that.
I just know, by um, how I feel,the energy that I have, my
(52:51):
ability to think clearly and, um, I don't typically tell people
what kind of eating regime Ihave.
If they ask me, I offer thatinformation and I find that the
people who ask me are quite opento it and they want to hear
(53:13):
more about it.
So I'm not here to proselytize,you know, any kind of way of
eating for anyone.
But I love that you guys arecreating this awareness and I'm
so happy to participate in anyway for anyone out there who
might just want to try this.
(53:35):
Yeah, so I don't really tellpeople and I don't have any kind
of solid proof.
I can't say, well, you know, Ihad all this blood work done
prior to being carnivore andthis is what it looked like, and
now that seems to be our veryWestern sort of way of, you know
, demonstrating better health.
But I just know, by mydigestive situation, the peace
(54:00):
that I feel in my body, the calm, and I think meditating and
also being physical hassomething to do with that as
well.
I think that's really important.
It's not just about what we eat, but that's a very, very big
component.
And I really feel for all theparents out there who have young
children, who everybody comeshome and everybody's hungry, and
I can understand how compellingit might be to drive, to go to
(54:25):
the drive-thru right and orderthat family meal because
everybody's exhausted, tired.
Now you've got to go homeprepare a dinner which probably
a lot of people won't eatanymore.
You know, when I was raising mygirls, I used used to I cooked
everything you know from scratchand they loved it.
Because we didn't have fastfood on every corner, we didn't
(54:47):
have Uber Eats delivering it tous, we didn't eat out as much.
Now I think we're you knowwe're competing with sodium
laden and sugar laden foods, andthat's the other thing too,
stephen, to your point earlierabout feeling hungry If I'm
feeling hungry I actually getmore salt into my body and I
(55:07):
find that that's very, veryhelpful.
I'll even just crunch some inmy mouth and not just any kind
of salt, like it's got to be agood high quality salt and I
recommend everybody do theirresearch on good high quality
salt.
Stephen (55:19):
That's great, zoe, thank you.
I'll turn the next questionover to you, Graham.
Graham (55:23):
So last question, zoe, for you based on your experience
, what aspects of health orvitality do you believe people
can reclaim or enhance byadopting the carnivore diet?
What should they perhaps beexcited about as they start this
journey?
Zoe (55:44):
I think they should be excited about how much younger
they're going to feel, and so Idon't know if it's an organ
thing that after age 30 or 35,our liver and our kidney just
says, okay, like I can't keepdoing this for much longer.
I don't know if it's acumulative thing, but it seems
(56:05):
that we can get away with eatinga lot of garbage and poison
when we're younger and itcatches up to us and it ages us
overnight.
I mean, it just ages us so muchwe have all these aches and
pains, Our waist become reallybig, Our muscle mass decreases,
(56:26):
and so I would just say thatpeople could look forward to
having better sex, feeling moreproductive, feeling more
confident, just feelinggenerally a sense of well-being,
and especially when we'refeeding our loved ones.
You know, if we're feeding ourkids stuff that we wouldn't eat,
(56:47):
you know that's a problem.
I think.
Graham (56:53):
I can't think of a better way to finish the episode
.
So first off, Stephen, I'd liketo be the first to officially
change your name from cake faceto chiseled face, I think uh
feel free to wear that uh fromnow on.
Um Zoe, thank you so much foryour transparency in sharing
(57:15):
your experience, sharing yourwisdom.
Uh, I certainly learned a lottoday.
I think the listening audienceis going to do the same.
It's been fantastic to have you.
Thank you so much for joiningthe show, stephen.
Thank you so much for joiningthe show as well.
Zoe (57:28):
Thank you so much.
That's so kind of you.
I'm so glad you feel that wayand I really do hope it helps
even one person out there who'slistening to this.
That'd be awesome.
Graham (57:38):
All right, thanks everybody, and we'll see you at
the next episode.
Welcome to Lessons from the Keto-Verse.
Join Stephen and Graham as theyexplore the keto lifestyle with
tips, science and stories toboost your health.
This podcast isn't medicaladvice.
Consult your healthcare advisorfor any health-related issues.
Get ready to fuel your primalpower.
Graham (00:19):
Hi everybody and welcome to Lessons from the Keto-Verse.
This is episode nine and wehave a special guest with us
today which I'm very excited tointroduce.
And first of all, why don't wemake sure that Stephen says hi,
hello Stephen.
Stephen (00:37):
Hey Graham, Great to be here.
Thank you.
Graham (00:40):
All right, excellent.
So I am very, very happy tointroduce our guest guest, zoe.
Zoe, thank you so much forjoining.
Zoe has an incredible story totell.
I'm looking forward to Stephenand I asking her some questions
and hearing all about her veryinteresting story.
Thank you, zoe, for joiningStephen, and I can't wait to get
(01:01):
into the story, but first wouldyou be able to tell us a little
bit about yourself?
Zoe (01:08):
Wow, that's quite an introduction.
I hope I don't disappointanybody.
Yes, sure, I'm so happy to behere.
Thank you so much for asking meto be here here, and how I
would introduce myself, I guess,is I am, as we, as I believe we
all are an evolutionary soulhaving a temporary human
(01:30):
experience, and we all reallyneed to honor our avatar, our
vessel, and this became more andmore apparent to me as I became
older and so I started lookingat how can I be as healthy as
possible for as long as possible, and a very good friend of mine
(01:51):
was also very keenly interestedin this and, to be quite honest
, you know he deserves a lot ofthe credit because he would send
me things that were just reallycompelling.
And then, at around the sametime, maybe a year later, my
daughter got diagnosed withepilepsy, and that is basically
a term for we don't know whyyou're having seizures.
(02:13):
That's what epilepsy means andI.
She was prescribed all kinds ofmedication.
Of course, they all have sideeffects, and the medications
were not working.
She was still continuing tohave very, very intense, long
lasting seizures where she wouldstop breathing, she would lose
consciousness.
We had staples on the front ofher head staples on the back of
(02:35):
her head.
It was really concerning, andso I started to do some research
myself on YouTube and I foundphysicians and history, I guess,
of how epilepsy and seizureswere treated in the 1920s with
(02:56):
diet, and they were all on acarnivore diet or a keto diet
high fat, low carb, high proteindiet and this actually not only
reduced seizures but many, manytimes eliminated them
completely.
And there is a physician inToronto, a Toronto Western
Hospital, who is very dedicatedto this, and all he does is he
(03:20):
meets with people who haveseizures and he helps them to be
on the keto diet.
He first assesses, of course,whether or not they're a good
candidate for it, and so this isa testament, in my opinion, to
the fact that this actuallyworks.
So, fortunately for us, we didnot need to do that.
Erin's seizures have stoppedwith naps, of all things, so we
(03:47):
have not introduced her to thisdiet, but I am eating this diet
as much, or this way of eating.
I'm on this woe for as much ofmy days as possible, because I
just feel so much better.
Inflammation is reduced.
Stephen (04:06):
That's great, zoe.
Thank you very much, stephenhere.
My first question to you, zoe,you initially explored the
carnivore diet as a potentialtreatment for your daughter's
absolute epilepsy, as youmentioned, a condition for which
the ketogenic diet, as youmentioned, was originally
developed.
Can you share what led you toinvestigate this dietary
approach for her, originallydeveloped?
Can you share what led you?
Zoe (04:25):
to investigate this dietary approach for her the research
that I did on YouTube and theresearch that I did in medical
journals talking about howepilepsy was treated in the
1920s, prior to pharma, and thenalso our urologist at Toronto
Western asked us if we wanted totry that, and I said absolutely
(04:46):
so.
She referred us to DrBertolucci at Toronto Western,
who does that.
Stephen (04:51):
Great yeah.
Thank you Over to you, Graham.
Graham (04:54):
Yeah, so, zoe, you'd mentioned this earlier and along
my journey I had learned aboutthis as well around.
The ketogenic diet being, youknow, has a rich history in
managing epilepsy.
It was the original reason whythe ketogenic diet being, you
know, has a rich history inmanaging epilepsy.
It was the original reason whythe ketogenic diet was designed.
I think most people don't knowthat, and so why do you think
this treatment has faded frommainstream conversations,
(05:18):
considering there was somesuccess at the time, 100 years
ago, and how relevant do youbelieve it remains today?
Zoe (05:24):
Oh my gosh, that is such an awesome question, graham.
Because just a bit of backstoryprior to Aaron's seizures
stopping knock on wood we wentto the what's called the EMU,
the epilepsy monitoring unit,where they they gradually take
everybody off their meds, theyhave electrodes on their heads
and they basically, as seizuresare induced, and then they
(05:46):
record all of that to find outwhere the seizure is starting in
the brain and how it's all,because it's very, very unique
to everyone, and some people areeligible for brain surgery
where they remove a portion ofthe brain a very small portion,
of course and people have hadreally good results this way,
and that's what we were actuallyhoping for.
(06:07):
And nobody on the unit wastalking about this diet.
Nobody on the unit knew aboutthis diet, and I've also joined
at the time I joined severalsocial media groups, different
platforms, to support peoplewith epilepsy and their seizures
, because a lot of them, can'tdrive anymore, they can't work
anymore, they can't even bealone anymore.
(06:29):
It really impacts people's livesand they didn't know anything
about it either.
Nobody's talking about it,they're just talking about
pharmaceuticals.
So you know, I don't think it'sany secret that pharmaceuticals
are playing more and more andmore of a role in the human
condition and you know, we'vemoved away from plant medicine
(06:51):
and from doing what our you know, great, great grandmothers knew
how to do.
And it's just, yeah, it'sreally concerning.
Stephen (07:02):
That's a great response , zoe.
That's a great response, zoe.
So for my next question, if youdon't mind, many epilepsy
medications come withsignificant side effects.
Could you share your daughter'sexperiences with these
medications and how they shapedyour approach to her health?
Zoe (07:17):
yeah, we're very, very fortunate.
We have an amazing neurologistand I told her you know, one of
the things that I love about mydaughter and her happiness is
just what a joyful being she is.
Naturally, she wakes up happy,she goes to sleep happy, and her
seizures come on when she'sexcited, not stressed.
(07:39):
A lot of people get it whenthey're stressed, but she would
get them when she was reallyhappy and excited, sadly.
And so I was very clear withthe neurologist that I did not
want her to be put on amedication that would impact her
mood, because a lot of them do,and some of them quite severely
.
They can make people very angry, resulting in job losses,
relationship breakdowns, andsome of them can make them very
(08:03):
sleepy because they're know,very sedating.
A lot of them anti-seizuremedications.
So, erin, we were veryfortunate we didn't have too
much in the way of side effectsother than her hearing seems to
be different.
Her speech is definitelydifferent.
Is that the medication?
Is that the seizures?
You know definitively, I can'tsay um, because the two sort of
(08:27):
happened at the same time, butshe certainly has less energy on
the medications, but we aregradually taping her off them
now, so that is, uh, beingresolved.
But yeah, a lot of thesemedications have a lot of
different side effects and theyaffect everybody you know very
uniquely yeah.
Graham (08:49):
So one of the things that, um, I admire about you is
you not only listen tohealthcare professionals, uh,
advocating um for for yourfamily, um, at the same time,
you also did your own research.
Um, you know some people dothat not.
You know some people do that.
Not everybody does that.
Some people just trust thehealth care system implicitly.
(09:10):
Some people want to be informedby the health care system and
do their own homework to makesure that they're getting the
right information for theirfamily.
This is connected.
The next question I have isconnected to that.
How did you come about adoptingthe carnivore diet and how did
you begin your own journeyaround it?
(09:31):
We'd really, really love to wasa vegetarian from the time.
Zoe (09:47):
My mom was a very big carnivore we're Australian and
she would have lamb chops forbreakfast, you know, and I, once
I found out where meat camefrom, I couldn't eat it anymore.
It was just a moral dilemma forme.
I loved animals and I justcouldn't imagine, you know.
So I didn't.
I was a vegetarian for I don'tknow over 20 years.
Uh, I didn't eat meat.
(10:07):
And, um, I had a hard timeeating meat and I guess I just
thought well, you know what do Ihave to lose?
What I don't know, what I don'tknow, and maybe I'll feel even
better on a higher meat diet.
So that's what I did.
I kind of introduced moreprotein into my life, into my
(10:32):
days, and then I just realized Iguess I realized with my own
digestion and my own issues thatI was having, which were never
really diagnosed, you know, ibs.
Well, we don't know what'sgoing on, but really it's
probably oxalates coming fromfruits and vegetables and
(10:52):
everything is so, unfortunately.
I don't want to sounddepressing, but I feel like our
soil is so polluted that we'regrowing these things in and with
all of the pesticides and justthe environment, I just don't
feel like we're eating.
When we're eating fruit andvegetables, it's having an
impact on me and my gut becauseit ruined it, ruined my
(11:18):
microbiome.
You know, metabolic health is areally metabolic health is a
really, really important thing,and when we are eating a high
meat diet we are, or animalprotein diet, we are getting
lots of really good diversity inour gut with that bacteria
(11:38):
which is so critical, and forthe longest time I would try to
replace it with the stuff and Iwould pay hundreds of dollars to
have this stuff shipped in acooler to keep it cold and to
keep the bacteria alive, butnone of it really actually works
.
So I'm just finding that I'mfeeling better, I have more
energy, I have more clarity, Ihave less digestive issues with
(12:01):
the high protein diets, and so Ihave.
I start my day with that.
Um, also, I found a woman onYouTube, the glucose goddess,
who talked about how.
You know the thing that's soimportant about insulin spikes.
What hurts us more thananything is not just having high
(12:22):
blood sugar or high hurts usmore than anything is not just
having high blood sugar or highwhatever that.
I think it's AIF, the, theacronym, but it's the spikes.
And so when we have glucosefruit, for example, or fructose
on a empty stomach, it reallyspikes our insulin and it makes
it very, very difficult for ourbody to come back down again,
(12:43):
for insulin levels to become, orsugar levels to become, normal
again.
And yeah, so that was anotherreason because I used to have a
big bowl of fruit for breakfast.
I thought I was doing the rightthing, canada's Food Guide and
all that good stuff.
Right Turns out, no, not really, Because then I would want to
have a big nap.
I thought, oh my gosh, why am Iso tired?
(13:05):
I just had fruit because of thespike.
And then the crash.
Stephen (13:09):
So yeah, yeah, that's absolutely a great insight.
I mean, we've talked about thisin previous broadcasts, about
how we all found our way to thisparticular carnivore diet.
I too, like you, was vegetarianat one point and it didn't work
for me either.
I was actually getting Inoticed it in the gym and so
(13:32):
forth.
I was losing muscle mass and Iwas having difficulty pushing
the same amount of weight, and Iwas attributing that to my age.
So I definitely understandwhere you're coming from and, as
you know, as you transitionedto the carnivore diet, zoe, what
were some of the key benefitsyou noticed, especially when you
contrasted to where you wereformerly, as a vegan vegetarian?
Zoe (13:57):
Right, Well, certainly, energy wise, I just had way more
energy.
I didn't even know, see, Ididn't know, but I didn't know.
I didn't know because I like torun in the morning, so I didn't
know when I was going for myruns, when I wasn't eating
enough protein.
I would say that I thought Ifelt pretty good, but now you
(14:20):
know, eating a carnivore diet, Ican realize how much more
energy I have, how much moreclarity I have to like I don't
have that rain fog at three inthe afternoon.
The other wonderful thing aboutbeing on carnivore is cravings
dissipate cravings, for, youknow, stuff that really doesn't
(14:44):
serve us.
Um, it's, it's fun in themoment, I guess, or so we think
it will be, and um, it justleaves us feeling like I would
feel hung over, you know.
So those are the main thingsthe energy, the clarity, the
mental clarity and the lack ofdigestive issues.
Graham (15:12):
So, zoe, I think this is such a big deal.
Stephen and I have talked aboutthis sort of brain fog and
sometimes it gets to the pointwhere you actually realize
you're feeling this brain fog.
But I think a lot of people maynot even realize.
They chalk it up to being old,they chalk it up to stress, they
chalk it up to genetics, theychalk it up to a bunch of things
(15:35):
outside their control,potentially, and I'm wondering
if we can expand on that.
So, reflecting on yourexperience through the carnivore
diet, maybe you can comparethat to your vegetarian diet.
How did you know that you hadthis brain fog and at what point
(15:58):
during the carnivore journeymaybe it's an amount of time did
you start to get this mentalclarity and how has it improved
your life?
Zoe (16:10):
So, with these physicians that I found on YouTube, who
have left Western medicine toyou know, help people understand
much more about theirphysicality, their bodies, their
metabolic health, becausethat's something that physicians
(16:30):
in general just don't discuss.
Through following them, Irealized that fructose has been
heavily linked to Alzheimer's.
Fructose has been heavilylinked to Alzheimer's.
So I thought that that was veryinteresting, because I noticed
that my father is eating moreand more sugar.
He's in his 80s now.
(16:52):
He eats very little proteinBecause he's eating more sugar.
His body craves more sugarBecause he's eating more sugar.
His taste buds are screamingfor sugar, you know it's also
everything in his body isscreaming for more sugar.
So this is, this is the problemSugar just begets more sugar and
more, um, it causes stickinessin the, in the actual cells of
(17:17):
our body and our brains, and itand then our cells don't know
what they are.
So this is, you know, part ofthe problem and this is how we
get rogue cells and precancerouscells becoming cancerous.
The cure for cancer isprevention people, and we do
prevention with really healthymetabolic states, and we do that
(17:42):
with our way of eating.
So that's just my, you know,unhumble opinion, I suppose, and
did I answer your?
Graham (17:52):
question.
Yeah, no, you certainly did,and I'm interested in sort of
that part too, because I brokethat question up and into maybe
more complicated than it neededto be, but the mental clarity,
talk about that.
You know how long did it takefor?
You to realize your mentalclarity and how has it changed
your life?
Zoe (18:11):
Okay, I don't know if I can .
I don't know, maybe maybe threemonths or something, like it
wasn't right away.
I mean, there were days where Iwould think, wow, do I ever
feel so much better eating allthis meat, you know, eating all
this protein, and I would try toget my dad to do it.
And so I think too, I'mpostmenopausal.
(18:31):
So women who are perimenopausalor menopausal, they get told oh
, it's just your hormones orit's just baby brain, blah, blah
, blah when they're pregnant.
And I just don't believe that.
I really believe that if theywere eating a carnivore diet or
as close to it you know, noteverybody can go full on
carnivore, but like it's noteven cheap either, too right,
(18:53):
that's something else to takeinto consideration.
Not every family would be ableto afford to do this, but as
much protein as they can, ifthey can even just replace one
carbohydrate meal with moreprotein, I think that they would
be better off.
And and so that would be, youknow, my, my message to people.
(19:16):
It's not about being perfect,it's about progress and the
clarity I would say maybe I feltafter about three months.
But I think too that as peopleage like maybe listeners out
there have parents who are, whoare getting older and you're
seeing that they're I maybe askthem about their diet.
See, my dad's very independentand he doesn't live with me or
(19:38):
anything.
So I have to ask him okay,what'd you have for breakfast?
Oh, a granola bar and grapes.
Well, what did you have forlunch?
Oh, I had a sandwich, you know,like lots of bread and lots of
carbs.
And then he doesn't even eatdinner sometimes, or he'll have
a banana, it's just, it's just.
Or a bran muffin, or you know,it's that easy kind of food.
So I think that, if anyone'sentrepreneurial out there and
(20:01):
listening, it might be reallyhelpful for us to have more
carnivore snacks.
I find that there's a real gapin the market.
The only thing that I've comeup with and I didn't come up
with it, of course I'm on groupsand somebody else suggested it
but the bacon rinds that arecooked in lard, they're really
(20:22):
awesome.
And that's another thing too,right, guys?
Oils, seed oils they are reallyreally bad.
And according to Dr Eric Berg,what really creates obesity,
even more than sugar, more thanfat, is starch.
There's modified starches inall of our processed foods.
They come under a plethora ofdifferent names.
(20:44):
So I highly recommend that youdo some research on that,
listeners, if you're interested,if you're feeding your families
out there, especially your kids.
I don't know why it causes suchobesity.
I don't know what.
I just heard him say that, andDr Eric Berg is amazing.
Graham (21:03):
So yeah, it's actually.
Um, this is a brilliant point.
So glucose, um, it raises bloodsugar, a1c's.
Uh, insulin needs to get thatsugar into the cells, otherwise
it stays in the bloodstream,which causes serious damage to
the body.
It can potentially kill you ifyou don't get that glucose into
(21:26):
the cells.
The problem with starches isthat it turns into glucose so
quickly that if you have a verystarchy dinner, you are
overwhelming the body with theamount of glucose that you're
putting into the body.
You've got an enormous amountof sugar in the bloodstream and
your body is going into a dangerzone to try and get that sugar
(21:46):
into the cells.
You do that enough times,you're ending up with insulin
resistance and all sorts ofproblems come about from that.
Stephen.
Stephen (21:56):
Yeah, actually I just build on that for a second.
We talked about this in aprevious episode as well, zoe
where you know the body canactually run on three grams of
sugar in it in the system.
That's all it requires from ametabolic perspective, and I
won't name a particular pop orsoda for those in the us, but
all you need to do is spinaround a can at your local
convenience store and see 29grams, 31 grams, 32 grams.
(22:20):
I'm not talking about theenergy drinks, I've seen them
over 100 grams.
So your body has to metabolizethat or try to metabolize that,
and you know, as a diabetic,that's just a non-starter.
I'd likely end up in thehospital, compromising my vision
and possibly other issues withmy organs.
(22:40):
So I mean, that's a really good, good point.
And then, just sort of bringingthis back full circle, you know
this episode sort of highlightsyour goal to stay as youthful
and vibrant as possible throughthis process, and we've heard
you speak to a few things likelike how you went about that and
why, ultimately, that's that'simportant to you.
So, reverting back to thecarnivore diet versus the vegan
(23:02):
diet, how do you feel thecarnivore diet better supports
you with this vision of stayingyouthful and vibrant?
Zoe (23:10):
so, um, yeah, I, I kind of, I'm kind of rethinking the word
youthful, because I feel likethe word youthful is synonymous
with how we look, unfortunately,right now.
But I guess I mean, I want tofeel as healthy as possible for
as long as possible andcarnivore, just.
I don't have inflammation, Idon't have, my back doesn't hurt
(23:33):
, my knees don't hurt after arun.
I was sitting at a table at awedding a couple of years ago
and I was sitting at the table,you know, with my guy and a
bunch of other women who allwould run, with the mother of
the bride, who I was my friendand that's why I was there, and
so we were all runners, but noneof them were running anymore
(23:55):
and they said, oh no, I can't, Ihaven't run in years.
And I looked at, you know, myperson and I said, wow, like
what's going on here?
Like am I drinking from thefountain of youth or something?
And it's just because I thinkthat the the way of eating.
Really, again, you know, ifthey would just cut out gluten,
cut out fructose, sugar and allthe stuff that, the seed oils,
(24:21):
all the things that are creatingthe inflammation.
It's not about eatinganti-inflammatory foods, it's
about cutting out the stuff thatcreates inflammation and
getting off the meds, and thenthere's, you know, cholesterol
and statins.
Like that's a whole other youknow conversation as well, or
maybe it's part of thisconversation, but I guess, yeah,
(24:42):
I just, I love the fact that Idon't feel inflamed and I was
going to get t-shirts made thatsay I'm not really fat, I'm just
really inflamed, because reallythat's what it is.
You know, when you go oncarnivore you end up releasing
so much water out of yourinterstitial tissue that's been
held there in the cells by allof this junk.
Graham (25:10):
It's interesting.
You say that Zoe and I'll tella little story Out of school.
The first time we chatted, along time ago, you told me how
old you were.
I didn't ask.
You told me how old you wereand my initial reaction was I
didn't believe you.
You look way younger old youwere.
I didn't ask, you told me howold you were and I, my initial
reaction was I didn't believeyou.
Uh, you look way younger thanyou, said, um, but I, I'm.
(25:30):
I.
I see a theme here with a lot ofpeople who are you know,
cutting, uh, listen, whetherit's a vegetarian, whether it's
uh, uh, uh, somebody on aketogenic diet, whether it's
somebody on a carnivore diet,the people that have cut out the
you know, the emulsifiers, thestarches, the sugars out of
their diets and understandingthe foods that turn into glucose
(25:52):
, which causes all theseproblems.
They all have the same thing incommon they all have a lot of
energy and they all look a lotyounger than they are, and
that's apt to the title of thisepisode.
I wanted to kind of dive intothe carnivore diet that you're
on.
What advice would you have forpeople out there that are, you
(26:15):
know, listening to this podcastand others thinking you know
what, I got nothing to lose.
Maybe I should give this a shot.
Think back to when you were inthat moment where you said you
know what I got nothing to lose.
Maybe I should give this a shot.
Think back to when you were inthat moment where you said you
know what?
I'm going to give this a try.
What practical advice would yougive somebody who said tell me
what you know.
Zoe (26:35):
First and foremost, again, I would give them the advice to
not beat themselves up, theadvice that to not beat
themselves up.
If they're not able to do itperfectly, first run out of it,
right out of the gate.
It's, it's like anything we getbetter as we practice.
So if you, if you're at anevent and there's something
(26:57):
there that you really want toeat, you know, don't beat
yourself up.
If you eat it, just start backon it again the next day or the
next meal.
Get back to carnivore or keto,as soon as you can Get back to
the food that's really going tofeed you and nourish your brain,
nourish your organs, and sothat would be the number one
(27:18):
thing.
This is not about perfection.
This is just about makingchanges that create, you know,
momentum for you, and that's howit happened for me.
It wasn't all at once, it wasintroducing more protein into my
diet and realizing, wow, Iactually do feel better and my
iron isn't low and my B12 isn'tlow, and I don't know if those
(27:40):
two things go together, but Ifeel like they did for me.
And then I would say, be asopen-minded as possible too,
because a lot of the groups thatI'm on, they really talk about
beef butter and eggs and beefbutter and eggs and I don't know
.
I love food.
I love the way food tastes andfeels in my mouth.
(28:02):
I love seafood.
So I don't just do beef butterand eggs, I also will have
salmon.
Sometimes I'll have a can ofsalmon for breakfast and I know
that probably sounds disgustingto a lot of people, but I have
it with a little bit of lemonjuice on it or apple cider
vinegar a little bit, and it'sjust delicious to me and I feel
like a million bucks.
(28:22):
I go into a meeting, I know whatI'm to me and I feel like a
million bucks.
I go into a meeting, I knowwhat I'm talking about, I feel
like I'm on my game, I'm able tobe productive, I have a great.
It just gets my my day off to areally great start.
So, yeah, I would say be as beas creative as you possibly can
with your meals so that youdon't become bored and start
(28:45):
looking for those things.
And also remember people toothat the longer you stay away
from sugar, the less thecravings are.
Those cravings will go away.
It's just it's like the firstthree months are not easy, and I
would also suggest that youjoin groups that are supportive.
Maybe let family members knowwho can be supportive.
(29:08):
Maybe even get someone to tryand do it with you, if that's
something that would be helpfulto you.
Stephen (29:14):
Yeah, I think that's good advice, zoe, and certainly
we appreciate that.
We spent a fair bit of timefocusing on food, and I'm
wondering if we couldpotentially shift gears for a
sec and maybe consider some ofthe other methods or tools that
you've rolled into your overallhealth care plan.
Zoe (29:45):
Like to specifically touch on, if I may, is how you've
worked or embraced fasting aspart of this this lifestyle and
if you don't mind sharing someof the benefits you experienced
with fasting and how it, youknow, complemented your
carnivore diet overall yeah,yeah, I love fasting and and I'm
referring to prolonged fastingand or intermittent fasting you
(30:05):
know some people are doing onemeal a day, 20 hours not eating
and then four-hour feedingwindow.
I started to do prolonged fastswhen I was listening to Jason
Fung physician Jason Fung onYouTube talking about the
benefits of autophagy.
I don't know if you guys havecovered this before.
(30:26):
Autophagy is when we don't feedour bodies any glucose or
anything except for water, ofcourse, and I also do
supplements too.
I do electrolytes that I makemyself with pink Himalayan salt
and magnesium, zinc andpotassium, because most of them
(30:47):
have most of the ones that youbuy, even at a health food store
, have sucralose and things likethat in them, sadly.
So I started doing prolongedfasting for the autophagy
benefits too, because your bodywill go, move through all of
your cells and use up all of thecells the rogue cells, the
(31:09):
precancerous cells, the cellsthe rat, the free radicals.
We don't want them.
So the body will use all ofthose up for fuel and will
produce brand new cells.
I mean, who doesn't want brandnew cells cells in their brains
and flowing through their bodies?
So that's why I started to doto fast and again I joined
(31:31):
groups.
I really love being with othersof like mind, whether we're
together physically or, you know, virtually or even, you know,
just digitally.
I find that extremely helpful.
I feel like I'm not so aloneand I just they inspire me a lot
of these people.
So I find that really, reallyhelpful and I think everybody
(31:53):
needs to kind of play with thefasting, you know, to see what
suits them.
Some people do rolling 48.
Some people do rolling 24.
Some people do a five day or a30 day fast.
I've only ever gone as long aseight days because I really like
to be physical and I find thatif I go more than eight days I
don't sleep as well and I findit harder to go for runs and
(32:16):
stuff like that.
So I start to miss too much ofmy life, and so then I go back
to feeding again.
Stephen (32:24):
I think too, like for those who are diabetics out
there and also some others we'vetalked about similar to me that
have issues with cortisol, I'vedone the extended fast.
I dropped 53 pounds in totalthrough intermittent fasting and
this diet.
But what I would say too toyour comment comment it kind of
builds on what you said, zoe isyou couldn't run, there was
(32:46):
other things.
So it starts to affect reallythat sort of balanced approach
like I can understand, like whenit was like me at 235, going
down to 183, uh, you know, thereI had to get a little bit
radical and and obviouslyexperience antophagy.
But what I would say too is nowthat my metabolic um stasis has
changed and I don't know if youfound the same, but because I
(33:07):
wear a CGM, I'm able to see theconsequences of cortisol affect
my sugar on an empty stomachwhere I fasted 24 or 30 hours
and I sort of have that sweetspot where I know I don't want
to revert over to cortisol andhave a negative effect.
So I'd only caution those likeme who are diabetics is,
(33:27):
certainly, if you have quite abit of weight to lose, you're
going to feed on that fat andthat energy burn.
You're probably going to beokay.
But if there's other factorsthat relate to your mental
well-being, mental fitness, ifyou have PTSD or other things
that are triggered or resultanyway, then I would suggest is
(33:48):
to start, for those people thatare out there is, start small
and see, see a large benefit andthen, uh, you know, keep line
of sight to how your body adaptsover time.
Um, what say you to that?
Uh, so, yeah, I.
Zoe (34:01):
I think that's such a great and such an important point to
make, and in some of thesegroups that I'm in, there are
people who are on mood disordermedications.
You know, they might havebipolar, and so I think that
it's very, very important to tryand find a friend, a fasting
friendly physician.
(34:22):
They are out there.
There are fewer and furtherbetween, of course, but there
are some physicians out therethat really do understand the
benefits of fasting, and if youcan find someone like that to
help you, if you are on somekind of medication for a mood
condition that you might have orany kind of other condition
(34:44):
that you might have, I wouldstrongly recommend that because,
yeah, I'm not on any medication, I'm not on any pharma
whatsoever, and you know so it'sdifferent for me, obviously.
Graham (34:59):
Yeah, how nice is it to be in your 50s and not be on any
medications.
I remember I'm going to do afollow-up MRI on my torn rotator
cuff from 20 plus years agoplaying baseball, and it was
feeling 90% better and I wantedto figure out if I could do
physio without doing any furtherdamage.
And when I went to the doctor,they make you fill out a form.
(35:25):
When I went to the doctor, theymake you fill out a form and it
was so satisfying to click no,no, no, no, no, no all the way
down the list and I wondered howmany people in their, you know,
50s, mid 50s, late 50s and onwere able to do that.
So it was sort of a little bitof a personal badge of honor for
myself to be able to say youknow, I took my health into my
(35:45):
own control.
And that's a follow-up question, zoe, for you here.
We've spoken at length, youknow, in this podcast series
about the importance of takingresponsibility for one's health.
I would say your firstresponder, your first health
care professional, needs to beyou, and then everybody else is
(36:06):
a complement to that.
What inspired this mindset foryou in taking control of your
own health, and how has itinfluenced your health choices
ever since you started doingthat?
Zoe (36:19):
Well, I guess you know, as we become more aware of what is
really truly going on with ourbody as I became, by becoming
more informed, you know lookingfor that information and I also
have just never wanted to bedependent on anything and I
remember going on a trip and Ihad all these medications.
(36:43):
In my 50s I was on a fewdifferent medications and I had
to have a note from thephysician.
You know as to why I wasbringing these meds into like
this resort you know, down inthe Caribbean, and I just
thought this is so.
It just felt very dehumanizingto me, I didn't like it is so.
(37:05):
It just felt very dehumanizingto me, I didn't like it.
And then I also just don't everwant to be in a situation where
I'm dependent on something, andwhat if I can't get it, you
know.
So I just made it my mission toget off the medications that I
was on, and a friend of mine,she was also on a similar
medication for sleeping and shewanted to get off it too, and
she paid a private clinic fourthousand dollars to help her do
(37:28):
it.
And I, um, I did not do that, Ijust did it myself.
I thugged it out and, um, sheis still on them and, uh, I have
been able to get off them.
And there's nothing better thanyou know that feeling, when
you're feeling nice and sleepyand and tired and relaxed and
(37:52):
you just fall asleep naturally,like it's just a really great
feeling, yeah, and supplementstoo, though, are very, very
critical, as as we.
I mean, I do think there arethings that we don't have as
much of as we get older, um, nomatter how fit or healthy we are
, it's just, you know, it's partof the human condition, so
supplements are really veryhelpful as well that's great, so
(38:18):
I thank you for that.
Stephen (38:19):
Now, um, just uh, just thinking of, as we've gone over,
a little bit of your routine.
Like you certainly mentionedthat, you started your meals
sometimes at breakfast, forinstance, breaking your fast, so
to speak.
So high protein Is that sort ofcommon, or could you just maybe
take a minute or two to walk usthrough what your typical diet
(38:40):
might look like from a day today as far as meals are
concerned?
Zoe (38:44):
yeah, so I try to have my.
I try to mostly do one meal aday.
I find that works really wellfor me and I try to have it at
around 4 in the afternoon.
So I go through the day with myblack coffee and salt.
Sometimes I put a little bit ofbutter in it because I really
(39:08):
love the fat and it really makesthe coffee very yummy Grass-fed
butter.
Oh, that's the other thing too.
I buy I started to buy my meatfrom local farms.
I'm very fortunate.
I live, you know, 60 kilometerseast of Toronto, so I'm very
close to, I live, you know, 60kilometers east of Toronto, so
I'm very close to a lot of farmsout here.
They're, they're grass fed andand and they're, they're
(39:31):
butchered there, you know, atthe farm and so, yeah, I have
one meal basically.
And if I know I'm going tosomething where I might be
tempted by different things,like even alcohol, you know,
like sometimes it is really funto have a drink with my friends,
(39:52):
I might, I might switch up my,I might adapt my way of eating
accordingly, so I might waitlonger to eat or I might, you
know.
But it is something that Ithink about it, it's something
that's a priority for meshopping, you know, meal prep,
(40:13):
that sort of thing.
If I know I'm going to be awayfrom home and I need to bring
something with me in my bag tomy son cause there won't be
anything there, I've even umdone.
You know, hamburger pattiesfrom McDonald's Like I think you
can get three patties.
I forget how much they are now.
But you know you can find waysto adapt.
(40:36):
But I hope that at some pointthis culture of ours will become
more carnivore friendly.
Graham (40:45):
Yeah, well said, you mentioned this earlier, zoe, and
it really resonated with mearound this idea of not feeling
hungry.
There was a moment where I thinkit was a couple of years into
this lifestyle and I had onecracker that was like the size
of two thumbs and about 15minutes, in 10 minutes, in my
(41:09):
stomach started growling and Ihadn't heard my stomach growl in
years and I realized I haven'tfelt hungry.
Most people don't understandwhat this means because they're,
you know, they, they, they takein the carbs, the uh, the
emulsifiers, um, the anythingthat's going to turn into, uh,
(41:31):
glucose, which then turns intoan insulin response, uh, which
uh, then eventually um, causeshypoglycemia, which is when
you're very hungry.
And then most of us, you know,we stop at a gas station and we
get, you know, whatever bagel orwhatever chips or whatever is
closest to us.
(41:51):
It's fast food for a reason.
So when you say one meal a day,a lot of people at home their
reaction is going to be I couldnever do that.
I'd be grabbing at the bagels,I'd be grabbing at the you know
toast, the peanut butter, thecakes, the, whatever.
My favorite snack is thechocolate bars.
Now that you're on thiscarnivore diet, do you feel that
(42:16):
it's, do you find that it'snecessary to snack or does your
eating pattern kind of keep yousatisfied throughout the day?
Zoe (42:26):
Oh yeah, it definitely keeps me satisfied.
And I think in the beginning,of course, you know, I was carb
addicted and I am always goingto be a sugarholic.
I mean, sugar is my kryptoniteand I still have days where I
struggle.
You know, I'm not gonna, I'mnot gonna pretend that my diet
(42:48):
or my way of eating is perfectevery single day, but I don't
beat myself up about it, youknow.
So what was the question?
Again, Sorry.
Graham (42:57):
It's around not feeling hungry.
Do you feel like you need tosnack throughout the day?
Zoe (43:02):
No, no, no, no.
And I and I feel sometimes, youknow, in the beginning I would
think about having a snack andthen I would have less energy,
right?
So when I think about having asnack, I think about how I want
to feel, and I really how I feel, how I want to feel, is more
important to me than what I'mgoing to have on my tongue and
(43:24):
my taste buds.
And let's be real, how good isthat dessert?
Is it ever really that good?
It's never that good.
It never is After three bites.
So that's another thing, too,that I would highly recommend to
people.
Let's say you're at a weddingor a party or some sort of a
special celebration and thereare special things being put out
(43:45):
that you love and that youdon't have very often.
Have three bites, you know, dothe three bite thing and then
just leave it, because afterthree bites it's diminishing
returns and you know you haven'truined things, you've just had
like a little bit of a blip, andthen it's so much easier to
stay on that way of eating andnot have those cravings come
(44:07):
back again.
Graham (44:09):
I want to jump into that , stephen, something Zoe said
around.
You know, after three bites Ifind the exact same thing I, you
know I tend to not havedesserts, but every now and then
, you know, I'll be in asituation where there is dessert
and it's been well prepared.
I generally have one bite and Ireally enjoy that one little
(44:35):
bite.
And one of the things that isunknown in the food industry is
that there's something calledemulsifiers.
We've talked about this in thepast.
A lot of food have emulsifiersand what emulsifiers do is they
instantly remove the taste ofthe thing that you just ate so
(44:57):
that you eat more.
An example would be next timeyou crunch into a chip, there's
that satisfaction of the crunchand then you get the taste and
then what you find is that chipis basically like tissue paper
in your mouth.
It's disappeared, you can'ttaste anything anymore and it's
(45:18):
telling your brain go haveanother chip.
There's even commercials aboutbet you can't just have one.
The reason they bet you justcan't have one is those
emulsifiers are encouraging youto continue to eat, to continue
to eat to try and get that taste.
If you mindfully take a biteand you just enjoy it for a
(45:39):
little bit and then you put itaway because you're not hungry,
because you've eaten enoughprotein and fat and you don't
need to fill your belly.
This is just about personalsatisfaction and taste buds.
You may find that that sugaraddiction over time disappears,
as you talked about earlier, zoe.
Stephen (45:59):
Yeah, that's a really good point that you made there.
There, graham, and I know we'vewe've kind of touched on this
actually.
So, as you said, you know, yourkryptonite is, in fact, uh,
sugar.
I can relate, I used to becalled cake face in the family
and obviously, uh, there'd be ahigh correlation between me and
cake, and I love your three bitestrategy and I'm also a huge
(46:21):
fan of the um, of the glucosegoddess, uh, grateful for her
expertise.
So it seems like you've modeleda lot of that.
But, um, you know, as, as we tryto avoid these things, uh, do
you find that, on in certainoccasions, it's more difficult
to steer away from sugar becauseit is so readily available?
You're traveling, you'resomewhere, your options are
(46:43):
limited, like, would you, forinstance, opt to go hungry and
I'm going to build on thisquestion.
I want to get your responsebecause I want to tell you a
little bit about what I recentlyexperienced but would you,
would you accept being hungryand, uh, call it a more extended
fast than you would ever revertback to having something with
sugar?
Do you have that discipline?
Zoe (47:05):
yeah, most of the time, like again, I mean, you know I'm
not perfect, I guess, but mostof the time, yeah, I would
definitely rather abstainbecause I don't want to feel
like crap afterwards.
I don't want to have that sugarcrash.
The other thing I shouldmention, too, is that when I do
the one meal a day.
I mean, it's a meal, man Like.
(47:25):
It's not a snack, it's a lot offood I eat until I'm satiated.
So I will have a ribeye withmelted butter and three eggs,
and you know, I might even havesomething else with it, but
something protein scallops orsomething.
(47:52):
I love seafood so much, um, soyeah, so that I don't typically
get hungry.
I guess my body's just got soused to fat burning and, um,
cause, you know I'm pretty goodat being fat adapted now, I
guess, and it's just, I don'tfeel that hunger.
I don't get the hunger.
It's really even when I'mfasting.
I used to be very, very hungrythe first two days.
(48:13):
I just don't feel hungry, Idon't know.
Stephen (48:16):
Yeah, that's great.
It's interesting because Irecently had to travel to see my
daughter, who lives severalhours from here, and I showed up
in that belly period betweenwhat would have been my first
meal of the day and when shewanted to have dinner, and
typically her style is to eat alittle later than I would
(48:39):
because, again, I try to managemy glucose prior to going to bed
.
So I thought and I haven't donethis in years I thought, well,
how bad could it be if I justhad the burger with just a tiny
little bit of bread?
And I didn't actually feelgreat prior to wanting to eat,
like I felt a little bitnauseous because I was probably
(49:01):
about 30 hours into a fast.
It was hot, as the weather ishere, my body was stressed from
sitting in the car for almostsix hours and I'd only been
consuming water.
So what was amazing is I hadsort of a little bit of
heartburn, kind of like yourgrowly stomach you're talking
Graham.
And then I committed the actand purchased, uh, just the
(49:24):
burger.
And, um, I don't drink sodas,but that particular day I did,
and 20 minutes after I ate it, Ilike immediately walked after
graham, and I've taught this toto our audience in the past is
go and walk.
If you get, you're intosomething you know it's not
going to be good for you.
Manage that, spike down, takethe head of the dragon off.
(49:44):
Tried all that.
Uh, 25 minutes after I stoppedwalking I was still stable and
then it shot from fromapproximately, I would say,
about about six, eight.
I went up to like 12.5, whichis quite high.
I felt so nauseous.
I walked about three miles thatafternoon because and
(50:06):
essentially I consume sugar witha little bit of meat around it
when you want to get right downto it, because of the starches
and because of the condimentsand all the bad stuff that they
put in those.
So to your point, I mean it'slike being hungover, I think,
was the best expression you had.
I don't know if you want tocomment about that.
Hung over, I think was the bestexpression you had.
I don't know if you want tocomment about that.
Otherwise, we'll turn the nextquestion over to Graham.
Zoe (50:28):
Yeah, I think you covered that off really well.
I think that we're always goingto feel the ramifications, the
negative ramifications, ofgiving ourselves a treat.
It is not a treat, it's poison,it's white poison.
It is not a treat, it's poison,it's white poison.
Sugar is, anyway, andeverything that turns into sugar
(50:54):
, and I think that the more thisbecomes mainstream, the more
awareness that's created aroundthis, the less we're going to
see ADHD and childhood obesityand childhood diabetes and all
of the and even cancers.
You know, I really, reallybelieve that we're going to see
a lot less of that.
Graham (51:13):
Yeah, here's hoping for sure, and I know Stephen has
experienced this, so I have nodoubt you've experienced this.
When you tell somebody maybethey're close to you, maybe
they're you know, a colleague,maybe there's somebody you you
know, you're chatting withwhatever at the water cooler and
(51:34):
you let them know that you'reeating you know a carnivore diet
, or a ketogenic diet or a highprotein fat diet, whatever you
want to call it and theimmediate reaction to that is
you must have high cholesterol,you're going to get scurvy.
No one can survive that way.
Just as an aside, this week Iwatched a show about a woman in
(51:59):
Western Canada who's been on thecarnivore diet for 65 years.
She can still jump over thefence in her early 80s, so she's
probably still waiting for thatscurvy to kick in.
But the question for you, zoe,with that little sort of
background, is, as youprogressed on the carnivore diet
(52:19):
is, as you progressed on thecarnivore diet, what signs or
changes in your body and healthreassured you that you were?
Zoe (52:28):
on the right path.
So I don't really see aphysician on the regular.
I mean, I do have tests done,as I need to as a 60 something
year old woman, um, but I so Idon't have any blood work, you
know, to show you or anythinglike that.
I just know, by um, how I feel,the energy that I have, my
(52:51):
ability to think clearly and, um, I don't typically tell people
what kind of eating regime Ihave.
If they ask me, I offer thatinformation and I find that the
people who ask me are quite opento it and they want to hear
(53:13):
more about it.
So I'm not here to proselytize,you know, any kind of way of
eating for anyone.
But I love that you guys arecreating this awareness and I'm
so happy to participate in anyway for anyone out there who
might just want to try this.
(53:35):
Yeah, so I don't really tellpeople and I don't have any kind
of solid proof.
I can't say, well, you know, Ihad all this blood work done
prior to being carnivore andthis is what it looked like, and
now that seems to be our veryWestern sort of way of, you know
, demonstrating better health.
But I just know, by mydigestive situation, the peace
(54:00):
that I feel in my body, the calm, and I think meditating and
also being physical hassomething to do with that as
well.
I think that's really important.
It's not just about what we eat, but that's a very, very big
component.
And I really feel for all theparents out there who have young
children, who everybody comeshome and everybody's hungry, and
I can understand how compellingit might be to drive, to go to
(54:25):
the drive-thru right and orderthat family meal because
everybody's exhausted, tired.
Now you've got to go homeprepare a dinner which probably
a lot of people won't eatanymore.
You know, when I was raising mygirls, I used used to I cooked
everything you know from scratchand they loved it.
Because we didn't have fastfood on every corner, we didn't
(54:47):
have Uber Eats delivering it tous, we didn't eat out as much.
Now I think we're you knowwe're competing with sodium
laden and sugar laden foods, andthat's the other thing too,
stephen, to your point earlierabout feeling hungry If I'm
feeling hungry I actually getmore salt into my body and I
(55:07):
find that that's very, veryhelpful.
I'll even just crunch some inmy mouth and not just any kind
of salt, like it's got to be agood high quality salt and I
recommend everybody do theirresearch on good high quality
salt.
Stephen (55:19):
That's great, zoe, thank you.
I'll turn the next questionover to you, Graham.
Graham (55:23):
So last question, zoe, for you based on your experience
, what aspects of health orvitality do you believe people
can reclaim or enhance byadopting the carnivore diet?
What should they perhaps beexcited about as they start this
journey?
Zoe (55:44):
I think they should be excited about how much younger
they're going to feel, and so Idon't know if it's an organ
thing that after age 30 or 35,our liver and our kidney just
says, okay, like I can't keepdoing this for much longer.
I don't know if it's acumulative thing, but it seems
(56:05):
that we can get away with eatinga lot of garbage and poison
when we're younger and itcatches up to us and it ages us
overnight.
I mean, it just ages us so muchwe have all these aches and
pains, Our waist become reallybig, Our muscle mass decreases,
(56:26):
and so I would just say thatpeople could look forward to
having better sex, feeling moreproductive, feeling more
confident, just feelinggenerally a sense of well-being,
and especially when we'refeeding our loved ones.
You know, if we're feeding ourkids stuff that we wouldn't eat,
(56:47):
you know that's a problem.
I think.
Graham (56:53):
I can't think of a better way to finish the episode
.
So first off, Stephen, I'd liketo be the first to officially
change your name from cake faceto chiseled face, I think uh
feel free to wear that uh fromnow on.
Um Zoe, thank you so much foryour transparency in sharing
(57:15):
your experience, sharing yourwisdom.
Uh, I certainly learned a lottoday.
I think the listening audienceis going to do the same.
It's been fantastic to have you.
Thank you so much for joiningthe show, stephen.
Thank you so much for joiningthe show as well.
Zoe (57:28):
Thank you so much.
That's so kind of you.
I'm so glad you feel that wayand I really do hope it helps
even one person out there who'slistening to this.
That'd be awesome.
Graham (57:38):
All right, thanks everybody, and we'll see you at
the next episode.
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