Ep. 59: Lit It Or Quit It: Atmosphere

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they dive deep into Taylor Jenkins Reid's 'Atmosphere', exploring its themes of love, personal growth, and the challenges faced by women astronauts in the 1980s. With emotional highs, heartbreaks, and insightful commentary, this episode unpacks the complex relationships and historical backdrop of the novel in a heartfelt discussion.

00:00 Welcome to Lit Vibes!

00:33 Follow Us on Social Media

01:58 Upcoming Book Event

05:08 Current Reads

10:13 Book Summary of ‘Atmosphere’

19:59 Book Discussion

51:24 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

54:53 LITerally the Best or LITerally the Worst 

01:12:48 Social Media and Closing Remarks

Send us a text

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See you on Mondays!

Episode Transcript

Kelsey (00:06):
Welcome to Lit Fives, only where we lit the shit outta
books we love and hate.
I'm Kelsey, the unhinged,diehard, romantic and fantasy
reader.
And I'm Amanda, the insightful,thrill seeker and historical
fiction nerd.
Welcome once again, hey, to oursecond lit It or Quit It episode
for October.

(00:27):
We are officially in spookyseason.
Yay.
So exciting.
Fully in the fall.
Before we get into episode yay,today, we wanna remind you to
find us on our socials.
We're on Instagram at Lit vibeonly underscore podcast and
TikTok and YouTube at Lit Vibesonly podcast.

(00:48):
So be sure to like, follow,comment, subscribe, all the good
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(01:10):
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(01:31):
review on Apple for the entirepodcast.
Either one is deeply, deeplyappreciated.
We thank you guys so much foryour support and we're so glad
that you're here today hangingout with us.
We have a fun episode for youtoday.
We do.
I am so thrilled about this bookthat I force Kelsey to read
because I love Taylor Jenkinsread and I want her to love

(01:51):
Taylor Jenkins read too.
So we'll see.
We shall see.
I'm so curious.
But Kelsey and I have a funlittle book event coming up in
October.
Yeah.
I guess not in October, I guess.
I mean, yes.
In October, but I'm, I'm likegetting all, it's September when
we're recording this.
Yes, yes.
And once you hear this, it willbe after the book event.

(02:14):
So I'm like trying to like, thatis true place.
So this will have dropped afterwe've already gone to the book
event, but when we're recordingthis, it is still September and
we have not yet gone.
So Yes, it is like a week and ahalf before we go.
Yes.
But both Amanda and I read Anitade Monte laughs last.
Mm-hmm.
And it's been on my TBR for awhile and I was randomly

(02:35):
scrolling on Elliot Baybookstores.
Website and they have a monthlybook club.
And it happened to be Anita Detethis October.
Mm-hmm.
And I happened to see it like amonth ago.
And so it just kind of workedout perfectly.
And I said, Hey Amanda do youwant to read this?
Like we could go to this bookclub.

(02:56):
Yeah.
It's like our first time.
'cause we both have our own bookclubs that we're a part of
separately, so this is like thefirst time we've done a book
club together.
Yeah.
I also, I'm just curious abouthow this is gonna work, because
if it's a book group that's opento the public, like how large is
it?
How do people contribute?
Are we like in separate smallergroups?
Like

Amanda (03:15):
how is it no idea?
Is it structured?
I'm so

Kelsey (03:18):
curious.
But we both love Elliot Bay, somm-hmm.
It'll be great to go andsupport.
I feel like book clubs can bevery unstructured.
Do you have your Yeah, that's,that's what I'm saying.
If it's a bunch of people, howdo you have 50 people in an
unstructured book club?
Like how does that work?
Yeah, I dunno.
So how do you structure yourbook club?
Well we always spend like thefirst, I don't know, 45 minutes

(03:42):
just catching up.
'cause we're all friends andwe're all scattered all over the
country.
So we just have like our littlelife updates and then, I don't
know, it's just an opendiscussion like folks will
mm-hmm.
Talk about what they liked, whatthey didn't like, and then we
just kind of riff off of eachother.
But it works right.
Because there's six to eight ofus versus, you know, a massive
crowd of people.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I don't know how thatworks.

(04:03):
And I personally get really shytalking in a large group of
strangers.
Oh.
So I would be more hesitant tocontribute in a large group.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I feel that too.
I'm curious though, how diehard.
The book club is, you know whatI mean?
Yeah.
If there's big representation orsometimes those things can be

(04:24):
total flops.
Really.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah, exactly.
There's only a few people, so Imean, I didn't know it was a
thing until you mentioned it.
Like I didn't even know, likethey did book groups.
I thought they just had likeauthors come in and like those
kinds of events.
Oh yeah.
And do readings and things.
So I was like, oh.
We'll see what it's like andwe'll report back and let you
know.
We know on our next, well, ourthird episode month, it'll, it

(04:47):
won't be until, until November.
You'll hear from us.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
'cause we won't have gone, I'mgetting so confused at what
we're recording right now.
We've mentioned this before onour podcast, like orienting
ourselves in time when we'rerecording these is really, is
hard confusing sometimes.
But we are here and we'reexcited and we're gonna get to

(05:07):
the book in just a second.
But Kelsey, what are youcurrently reading?
Oh my gosh, I have to think fora second.
Oh I'm, I don't know if I wasstill reading this book in the
last recording.
Okay.
Did I mention an Ali Hazelwoodbook?
Do you remember?
I mean, you often mention AllyHazelwood, so it's quite
possible.
It's called the Summer ProbProblematic, problematic Summer

(05:31):
Romance.
Romance, yes.
You did mention this.
Did I mention that?
Yeah.
Oh, I'm still reading that one.
Okay.
Well'cause you mentioned youwere reading it I think at night
before bed, and so it was likeslow going.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Oh, super slow going.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I have a very specific placethat I am reading that book.
Oh, okay.
That's the only place I amreading it.
Is it, how does it compare toher other books you've read so

(05:52):
far?
It's pretty good.
Like I, I'm enjoying it, but I'mnot like a die hard for it, you
know?
Okay.
'cause if I was like a fourthwing book, right?
Yeah.
Like fourth Wing, I gobbled up.
Yeah.
But this book, I'm not gobblingup.
Okay.
I'm enjoying it.
But not immersed in it.
You're just like meanderingthrough the story.
Yes.
Okay.
That's fair.
I am actually reading a Kelseybook.

(06:14):
This is gonna be a featured inone of our, my God, upcoming I
guess November.
Yeah.
November.
Lit it or quit.
Its, I've got it right here forfolks who are I'm so excited.
Amanda on.

Amanda (06:23):
I

Amanda (2) (06:25):
know You're Not She YouTube, it is a Forbidden
Alchemy by Stacey McEwen.
McEwen, I think that's how yousay her name.
Yeah.
I am a little under halfwaythrough.
I started it last night.
Oh wow.
I'm not gonna say much because Idon't want Kelsey to know what I
need.
I saw your post and.
Well, that was before I startedreading it though.
Oh, it was before you startedreading it.

(06:45):
Hadn't started it.
Okay, so if, so I have no ideawhat you thinking.
If you follow us on TikTok, Ihad posted that.
I was reading it this weekendbecause my book Bestie was
forcing me.
But that was before I startedreading it, so no spoilers.
If you wanna know my finalthoughts on this book, you'll
just have to tune in next month.
But yeah, that's what I've been,I thought it was different than
other.

(07:05):
Fantasy books that we've read,so we'll see.
Oh, okay.
We'll see what you think.
Like diff like different in whatway?
Well, it starts out the verybeginning, and this isn't a
spoiler.
Yeah.
It starts out they are children.
Yeah.
And then it kind of reunitelater.
It kind of grows their entirestory from there.
Yeah, that's true.
I did have a different start.
So yeah.
My lips are sealed otherwise.
And we'll, we'll talk aboutthat.

(07:27):
You can't to wait to next month,whether or not you hate it or
love it, I don't care.
I still love it, but I Yeah, Iwill, I will let you know.
But yeah, we're gonna talk aboutatmosphere by Yes.
Teyl Jenkins three today.
I, gosh, why did I pick thisbook for Kelsey?
Well, one.
Mm-hmm.
I, I love TJR.
She, I've read God, four of herbooks.

(07:48):
I'm about to start Malibu Risingafter I, I finish a forbid
alchemy.
I'm super excited.
She writes almost exclusively,historical fiction, which I'm a
huge fan of.
Mm-hmm.
They're all female focusedstories.
They focus on a variety ofsettings and life experiences.
So in this particular novel,it's focused on female
astronauts.

(08:08):
In the eighties, Daisy Jones inthe six takes place in like the
sixties in the music industry.
The seven husbands of EvelynHugo take takes place in the
movie industry.
And I think she also does agreat job of doing her research.
Mm-hmm.
So yeah, love her stuff.
And I wanted to expose Kelsey tothis author and hopefully

(08:33):
finally get her to enjoy somehistorical fiction.
I know I've gotten a couple oflit its from her.
For Kindred?
Yes.
I think that's the onlyhistorical fiction.
Historical fiction so far.
Well wait, how many historicalfiction.
It's not true because you, Ithink you liked the Frozen
River, right?
Or was it a soft lit it?
I don't remember.
It might've been a, itdefinitely wasn't a, yeah, it

(08:55):
might have been a soft lit it.
Yeah.
But horse was acquitted.
Horses acquitted.
What was the other fiction?
What else I had you read ahistorical fiction.
Fiction?
It's hard to remember.
I feel like after a year, so wehave such a big repertoire now.
I can't remember.
Yeah.
But histor, historically Kelseyhas not liked my historical
fiction picks.
Yes.
And I had a sneaking suspicionthat she would like this one,

(09:17):
especially'cause it's not, youknow, way, way in the past.
It's in the eighties.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm., It really is a lovestory that's at the core of this
in a lot of ways.
Mm-hmm.
So I thought that might besomething she might be
interested to read about.
So, yeah.
So my question for you, KelseyYes.
Is and I feel like I alreadyknow, but was this book a lit it

(09:40):
or quit it for you?
I mean, did you see my book.
Rating for it?
No, I, I did not do rating.
I happened to put it onyesterday.
No, I didn't see it.
And I finished this Fridayevening.
Okay.
Because I always finish likeright before, because it just
feels like the best timing.
But it's fresh.
It's fresh in your mind if youdo that way.
Yeah.
It was absolute lit.
It y ugh.

(10:02):
Finally I knew it.
Hands or butts.
I knew it.
I found it.
I was pretty confident with thischoice for a lot of reasons.
But yeah, we'll get into that.
Excellent.
All right.
Well then you've got a summaryfor us.
You actually got five starsoutta me.
It was a five star read.
Okay.
Yeah.
I did not see your rating.
Oh my God.

(10:22):
I need to just take a moment andjust breathe it in Revel in
this, in this glorious moment.
Wow.
Are you have you ever given mefive stars?
I don't think so.
For any of our books.
Don't think.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
That's insane.
Yeah.
Okay.
I have given you five stars foryour books, but this is my first
one.
What five stars have you given?
I definitely did a five star forwhat is it?

(10:45):
A quart of Wings and Ruins.
Okay.
Aor, I'm pretty sure.
I'm pretty sure I gave that fivestars.
I might've given Mima five starstoo.
Oh.
Or maybe it was four.
I don't know.
But I definitely have given atleast one of the Ature books.
Five stars.
Yeah.
I would guess it was AKA.
War.
And that's one I feel like, Ithink I gave Trail of Lightning.

(11:05):
Five stars too, maybe.
Yeah.
I forgot about that book.
I know it was back in the, backin the day.
But yeah.
Okay.
I'm gonna, Hey, stop talking.
So you can give us a summary.
So I have our summary and what Itend to do with summaries is I
put it into Chay, bt, and I'mlike, give me a summary.
And this time it could not giveme a very detailed summary.

(11:30):
So I had to fill in some, fillin some blanks here.
Okay.
So it's a mixture.
Great.
Of the Internet's summaries onmy own.
Okay.
So, Joan Goodwin is an astronomyprofessor at Rice University in
Houston in the late 1970s.
She has a sister Barbara, who isa single mother raising her

(11:50):
daughter Francis.
Joan has been a steady figure inFrancis's life almost like a
second parent.
And Barbara increasingly leanson Joan for childcare and
support, causing resentment tobuild, and Barbara feels trapped
while Joan feels both obligatedand stifled.
NASA announces that it willbegin accepting women into the

(12:11):
astronaut court, and Joanapplies first.
Gets denied and then is acceptedthe second time they run
applications.
Into the new class of astronautcandidates.
Joan must balance training withher continued family obligations
which leads to growing conflictwith Barbara Francis, however,

(12:31):
becomes even closer to Joan, andso then we move into astronaut
training where Joan joins, youknow, a diverse cohort of
trainees and that includes herlike main folks that she builds
relationships with Vanessa FordA charismatic engineer and pilot
Lydia Danes, intenselycompetitive and ambitious.

(12:54):
Often people don't like herbecause of her ambition and her
competitiveness with others.
This also includes Griff, Hank,and Donna, who kind of round out
their, their friend group.
Training involves survivaldrills zero gravity flights,
simulations of shuttle launches,and reentries and constant

(13:15):
technical exams.
Joan struggles at times with thephysical demands, but proves
herself with her scientificexpertise and calm under
pressure.
That's a big attribute that sheholds is her calmness under
pressure.
She begins to bond deeply withVanessa during the long
stressful training.
And then Jonah Vanessa'sfriendship blossoms into a

(13:37):
romantic relationship Butbecause of the time period and
the culture,'cause this is theeighties at nasa, they must keep
their relationship hidden fromcolleagues and supervisors.
And I think another caveat tounderstand is that because they
were astronauts in this timetheir, their life was
semi-public to folks.

(13:58):
And their relationship becomes aprivate sanctuary amid the
intensity of training and thescrutiny of being among the
first women astronauts.
And then some rising tensionswith Barbara and her family.
So Barbara starts to date a mannamed Daniel and she leaves
Francis with Joan one weekendvery abruptly.
Joan takes care of Francis thatweekend, but Barbara doesn't

(14:19):
return when she says she will.
So Joan has to like remove someof her things that she had
planned thinking that Barbarawas gonna be back with Francis,
but she has to go pick her upfrom school and then hangs out
with Francis the entire evening.
Until Barbara returns andBarbara is becoming pretty
attached to this guy, Daniel.
And Francis grows even moreattached to Joan.

(14:41):
You know, she's a stable andinspiring figure in her life and
Jordan, Joan is torn between hersense of duty to take care of
her family and her ambitions atnasa.
So eventually after a few yearsof training the astronauts are
placed on missions and Joan isthe first in her group of folks

(15:03):
to be assigned a mission.
Lydia is upset with her, buteveryone else is not surprised
because Joan is very skilled andintelligent.
During her mission, she is sickalmost the whole time and
decides she doesn't wanna go tospace again and requests to
become Capcom which is thecapsule communicator in mission
control instead.

(15:24):
It's a vital link betweenHouston and the shuttle crew.
And so then after Joan isassigned, Vanessa, Lydia, Hank,
and Griff are all assigned tothe same mission.
And I think their mission was toplace a satellite, and then
during that, oh my God.
What is it called?
Their flight.
Their, their mission.

(15:45):
Mission, mm-hmm.
To space.
December 29th, 1984.
Yeah.
They deploy a satellite anddisaster strikes.
The navigator and explosioncauses rapid depressurization in
the cabin, and most of the crewloses consciousness immediately.
Hank dies quickly after theincident.

(16:06):
Griff is badly injured from theexplosion.
And Lydia Daines manages to sealthe leak, but collapses from
injury and exhaustion Vanessaremains the only fully conscious
astronaut on board and fromMission Control, Joan becomes
the voice like guiding Vanessathrough what has just happened.

(16:26):
And this is happening throughoutthe book, you're getting things
uncovered throughout the book asyou learn about the history of
the group.
And Jonah and Vanessa.
Joan relays technicalinstructions, keeping Vanessa
calm and works under the intensescrutiny of superiors who
insist, she follows strictprotocol.
And even though Joan knowsVanessa personally and

(16:48):
intimately, she must act withprofessional detachment to
maintain her role.
The tension is heightened asJonah forced to watch helplessly
from the ground while the womanshe loves risks her life.
And finally Vanessa getsofficial orders to prioritize
saving the shuttle and herherself.
But Lydia is still alive.

(17:10):
Griff has died while she wastrying to fix this mechanical
issue on board.
And so eventually Vanessa.
Decides to defy thoseinstructions.
And she in order to try and saveLydia along with herself, and
it's a huge risk because it'sunknown how much pressure the

(17:31):
doors can withstand becausethere's a malfunction going on.
Thinking about reentry Vanessaagain manages to guide both
Lydia and Vanessa safely back toEarth.
And that's like the very, veryend of the book.
And then I'm going back to thishappened right before Vanessa's

(17:53):
mission during Thanksgiving, butsome family, pieces that kind of
fill out the, the story is thatJoan comes back from her space
mission, which was right beforeVanessa and the other crews
mission.
And Barbara decides to putFrance into boarding school, and
Barbara had decided toessentially abandon her daughter

(18:14):
for her new husband who neverwanted children.
And so, there was this tensiongoing on for Joan by allowing
her sister to do this toFrancis.
But she had thought that she wasgonna see her on Thanksgiving
after Joan returns But she findsout that Barbara left Francis at
school for Thanksgiving so shecould travel Europe.
And Joan confronts her sisterand tells her she's taking

(18:36):
Francis and Barbara gives herpermission to raise Francis.
So really in the end, Vanessa,Francis and Joan build a genuine
sense of belonging and stabilitywhile carrying the scars of what
they endured in space and athome.
Dun dun at the end.
Yeah.
Great.
Okay.
Thank you.
Yeah, the book does have a dualtimeline, so it starts off with

(19:00):
as Kelsey said, them in space onthis mission, something goes
wrong and then you're constantlyflashing back to the past.
Yeah.
And learning more about each ofthese characters, their
relationships with each otherand what got them to this point.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, Barbara does end upmarrying Daniel.
Mm-hmm.
Her big draw for marrying Danielis that he's just very wealthy.

(19:22):
Man, very well established.
She's been struggling as asingle mother for many years.
She also is, as you've seen inthe novel, quite self-centered
mm-hmm.
And tends to prioritize herselfbefore her daughter, even before
her sister, who she fully takesadvantage of Joan's willingness
to help raise France.
Mm-hmm.
And so ultimately, yeah, shebasically disowns her daughter
and gives Joan Guardianship ofFrancis.

(19:44):
And so yeah, we see her andVanessa and Francis kind of form
this family unit by the end ofthe book.
Yep.
But yeah, lots of good stuff inthis book.
Lots of heartbreaking moments,lots of really great
relationships, lots of coolstuff about space.
So, yeah.
So Kelsey, what were some ofyour favorite things from this
book?
Let's start there.

(20:05):
I mean, really everything

Amanda (20:08):
really,

Kelsey 2.0 (20:08):
I suppose.
So if it's a five star book,really great.
Yeah, it was, it was a reallywell written beautiful story
about.
Humanity and love and yeah, I, Ijust, I fell in love with the
characters and the, history andstoryline.
But to be specific, I, I reallyenjoyed Vanessa and Joan's

(20:33):
story.
Mm-hmm.
And the fact that it was takingplace in the eighties mm-hmm.
And really thinking about whatthat would have been like for
two lesbians just trying to loveone another.
And it really got me thinkingand reflecting on one of my
uncles who passed two years ago,two summers ago.

(20:53):
And he was born in the fortiesmm-hmm.
And was always an openly gay manand would sometimes dress and
drag.
Mm-hmm.
And I just think about all thosestories what exactly was life
like to to have this identity.
And he was very open about it,my uncle.

(21:15):
But then thinking about likeVanessa and Joan they couldn't
be, they felt like they couldn'tbe right.
And so, it was very interestingto me, yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I think too, because after Ifinished reading the book, I was
doing like a little bit ofresearch, and I actually didn't
know this, but Sally Wright, whois briefly featured in this
book, because she was the firstwoman to go to space.

(21:36):
She also, yeah, that's, she alsowas a lesbian and Oh had to hide
her relationship for a very,very long time.
And it wasn't until I think herdad as she was dying, her
partner, her life partner waslike, you know, when you pass
away, can I, is it okay for meto tell people what our
relationship was publicly,finally, and oh my gosh.

(21:56):
She was like, yeah, you can.
And so the fact that for theirentire lives, essentially, aside
from the people who were reallyclose to them, most people
didn't know that Wow.
You know, she was in thisrelationship and that she was
queer and.
I, I'm assuming, because Ididn't look at any interviews
with TJR or anything, but I'massuming that mm-hmm.
Sally Wright's story very muchinformed Yeah.

(22:18):
The writing of this book andjust female experiences in nasa
in, in the eighties.
Yeah.
Late seventies.
And so I thought that was areally interesting connection.
And to your point I wonder whatit was like, well, we have Sally
rides, like her experience, andrecently, quite recently, I
haven't watched it.
There was a documentary that wasreleased about her life Oh,

(22:39):
okay.
About her experiences, which Ido wanna watch.
'Cause I feel like it would be,it would give a lot of really
good insight into what thatmight have been like for yeah.
A queer person just in generalat that time, but also in a very
public, as you said, a verypublic mm-hmm.
You know, facing role.
Mm-hmm.
Because astronauts are you know,these national heroes and
they're going around totally aswe see in the book.
Like they're going to schoolsand speaking at events mm-hmm.

(23:02):
And meeting, you know,politicians and Right.
So you very much couldn't haveyour, be anonymous, your
sexuality on display, especiallyif it wasn't, you know, if you
weren't in a heterosexualrelationship.
Mm-hmm.
So I am, I love that she divedinto that.
Yeah.
'cause it, it's a differentdynamic than if you were a gay
person who was like, I don'tknow, a banker, you know?

(23:23):
Mm-hmm.
So yeah, I really liked that aswell.
Yeah.
And just all of the smalldetails about remembering what
it was like before, like cellphones and the internet and
everything.
I loved that aspect of it too.
She's like talking about mailingin her application and you are
like, what the fuck?
You're like, yeah, of course.
Although I had to mail in all ofmy college applications.

(23:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was like the early twothousands, but yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It, it was a different time forsure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
But it's funny because this bookis about, you know, essentially
this advanced technology or likespace travel and at the same
time, you know, their everydaylives like, oh my gosh.
Yeah.
They don't have like cell phonesor the internet or Yeah.

(24:05):
Or all the times that likethings, the whole thing with
Barbara and why that happenedwas because they didn't have
cell phones is because shecouldn't call.
Oh, right.
When she couldn't to be like.
Hey, I'm not gonna be, I missedmy flight or whatever she was
doing, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh God.
I, which I know you're, I, Ithink you're supposed to
strongly dislike Barbara, butshe aggravated me.

(24:26):
Oh, no.
End her.
Just like her intenseselfishness and
self-centeredness and hercomplete and utter disregard for
her child was just soinfuriating.
Yeah.
And the way that Joan.
Joan was interesting to mebecause she's incredibly

(24:48):
ambitious.
She's incredibly intelligent,Uhhuh, she's accomplishing
amazing things and at the sametime she doesn't really have the
backbone to stand up to hersister.
Mm-hmm.
And just lets her sister takeadvantage of her walk all over
her.
And that was just like a reallyinteresting contrast.
'cause of course both things canbe true.

(25:08):
Oh, absolutely.
And I was like, why can't youapply kinda the same, I don't
know, drive and intensity thatyou have for your work and your
relationship with Barbara.

Amanda (2) (25:17):
Mm-hmm.
That was really hard to watch.
She kind of eventually getsthere though.
Right?
That's why she does.
She does.
She tells her off and thenBarbara's yeah, this is actually
what I wanted the whole time islike kind of how it read.
Yeah.
But it made sense.
That Francis was always going tobe Jones.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
There's a really beautiful line.
I think it might be in one ofmy.

(25:39):
Reviews that I'll read later.
Mm-hmm.
When Joan is talking to Francisand basically telling her that
Yeah.
You've always been mine.
You know?
Yeah.
Just, well, just, you know, howmany tears shed in this book?
God?
The, how many times did you cry?
Oh, I don't, I know, I know forsure.
At least twice, probably more,but definitely when she's having

(26:00):
that, moment with Francis,obviously at the end I was, and
here's the thing not to justjump to the ending already, but
like this book was reallyinteresting because it could
have ended both ways, right?
It could have ended with Vanessadying.
Yeah.
And I would've been okay withthat.
Yeah.
And it almost would've been morelike, I don't know, gripping and
poignant.
Yeah.
And it also works with her.

(26:21):
Being alive.
Right.
And yeah.
You know, they've already beenthrough so much and so the fact
that they finally have a chanceto build a future together.
Yeah.
But yeah, when you hear hervoice come over, like whatever,
the communication system, at theend, I fell apart.
I just, so, when you're readinga book, you can easily tell oh,

(26:43):
this is the last page I'mreading.
Right.
I bet you're doing theaudiobook.
But in audio books, I was like,what the fuck?
That's it.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it stopped so abruptly atthe end and I was like, oh my
God.
Oh, yeah.
And so I get, I get it.
And there wasn't really muchmore to go in, into, their story
was leading up to this pointwhere they know that they're

(27:04):
going to be together, butcontinue to face the same
issues.
Yeah.
But clearly, like in the, inthose last moments, like people
were realizing what they meantto each other.
Yeah.
Even though they weren't sayingit.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It was clear that Vanessa wasgonna lose her job as a
astronaut, right?
Mm-hmm.
Because she didn't followprotocol, they're both gonna be
landside basically mm-hmm.

(27:24):
For the rest of their lives,but, mm-hmm.
Yeah, it was very, it was veryinteresting.
It was a very intense ending.
It was very, very, very intense.
I could see it playing out soclearly in my mind.
And for those folks who didn'tread the book, just for a little
bit of clarity, as Vanessa isgetting ready to attempt reentry
mm-hmm.
Right to earth.
Mm-hmm.
They lose.

(27:45):
Their communication like Somission's normal loses Yeah.
Which is normal.
Mm-hmm.
They lose their communication asthey're reentering, but because
the ship has this mechanicalmalfunction mm-hmm.

Kelsey (27:56):
The chances of them not making it are so much higher.
And so when, when her voice cutsout and there's nothing Joan
falls apart.
Yeah.
She's a mess in mission control.
She's like reflecting on therelationship.
She's essentially said goodbye.
Yeah.
Like she's already started thegrieving process and then out of
the ether you hear Vanessa'svoice.

(28:17):
So it really is this trulydramatic moment because as the
reader you're like, all right,you're processing your feelings,
you're letting Vanessa go.
You're realizing that's the endof the relationship.
And it's one of those like gutwrenching endings to a love
story.
And then she's just you know,she's there actually, and she
made the right choice.

(28:37):
You know, she made the rightchoice to save Lydia.
Yeah.
And it's funny because everyonehated Lydia, right?
Like they hated her.
Yes.
But in a way where it's oh,that's the annoying little
sister that's trying to like.
One up everybody.
Yeah.
And she's just socially awkwardat the same time too.
Yes.
'Cause like again, for thosefolks who didn't read it, she's
this astronaut.
She's also very much like Joan.

(28:58):
Incredibly intelligent.
Incredibly ambitious.
Like no holds barred, is out tobe the best female astronaut
ever.
And she doesn't know how to liketemper that with also just being
a good teammate and comrade.
Yes.
Yeah.
But she wants like deep down,she wants that, she wants
connection, she wants to beliked and accepted and she isn't
sure how to find that balance.

(29:19):
And Joan really is the onlyperson who's willing to give her
grace and put up with her.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Until, you know, Lydia doesfinally soften and kind of come
around.
Yeah.
And so, yeah.
So then it's especiallymeaningful that Lydia's the one
that Vanessa chooses to savebecause they don't have the best
relationship.

(29:39):
Yeah.
And the fact that she's willingto risk her life.
For this woman who she's notparticularly close to.
Yeah.
Is says a lot.
And because I think it alsospeaks to the relationships that
the astronauts have in general.
Yeah.
Even though she's annoying tomany people.
Yeah.
She's still their familyessentially.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of my favorite moments inthe book was Lydia's

(30:02):
confrontation with Joan aboutwhy she got picked for a mission
first.
Mm-hmm.
Because that was Lydia's wholeidea is that I'm the smartest.
Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna be picked for amission first.
Mm-hmm.
And everyone thought that too.
Mm-hmm.
And then surprise, surprise,Joan gets picked for a mission
and it's before Lydia.
Well, but not everybody thinks,not everybody thinks Lydia's the

(30:23):
smartest.
Because I remember when theywere at the bar, Vanessa's no,
Lydia, like Joan is just assmart if not smarter than you
are.

Amanda (30:29):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelsey (30:30):
But what.
Lydia does do, and everybodyknows that.
She does do, is that mm-hmm.
She's very persistent and likesuper hardworking.
Yeah.
And she wants that top spot.
So she's kind of giving this airof I'm gonna get it.
Right.
Yeah.
And so, Joan has thisconversation with her.
Mm-hmm.
She's it's not just about you,Lydia.
Yeah.
It's about all of us, and it'sabout our strengths that lend

(30:53):
itself well to the collective.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought that was a reallygreat moment.
Yeah.
And, and you could tell like inthe, in the writing that Lydia
was like, fuck I have to thinkabout this.
And she's really trying to takethis in from Joan.
Yeah.
But it it also speaks to alarger issue within womanhood

(31:13):
and feminism, right?
Mm-hmm.
Is that for sure.
If we want to move, womenforward, we have to do it
together.
Mm.
And historically we've seen, youknow, that's not always the
case, right?
Some women are like, I don'tcare about how this is gonna
impact my sisters.
I'm going to make sure that Iachieve this thing and mm-hmm.
Everyone else be damned.

(31:34):
And Joan at one point, I believeit's Joan, she makes some
comment and they might be, shemight be in conversation with
some of the other women, how ifone, if one of the women in this
program makes a mistake or slipsup in some way, that ruins the
chances for every other woman,both present and future mm-hmm.
To make it in this program.
Yes.

(31:54):
'cause they're being judged as acollective and everyone's
waiting for, you know, one ofthese new female astronauts to
drop the ball so that it canreinforce their idea that yes,
women don't belong in space.
And here we have proof.
Mm-hmm.
From shutting down this program,women go back, you know, to the
classrooms, go back to thekitchens, whatever.
And so, yeah.
It is this idea that, you know,if we wanna make progress, if we

(32:16):
want to dismantle sexism and thepatriarchy, it's only gonna
happen when women are supportingother women.
Mm-hmm.
And not trying to work againsteach other.

Amanda (32:26):
Mm-hmm.

Kelsey (32:27):
And it's something that Lydia has to learn and it learns
over the course of this book.

Amanda (32:30):
Yeah.

Amanda (2) (32:31):
Because part of what Lydia's doing is undermining a
lot of what's going on for thewomen because she's trying to be
a man in the man's club, Uhhuh,and she laughs at their
inappropriate jokes Yeah.
And sides with the men.
Mm-hmm.
And I think Joan is the one thathelps Lydia start to see Yeah.
Like her errors.
Yeah.

(32:51):
Yeah.
So, yeah.
No, I, I loved that storylinetoo.
Yeah.
She gets her little redemptionarc for sure.
Yeah.
Which was nice because at thebeginning you're like, Ugh.
And it's interesting'cause Lydiadoes get one Lydia comes around
and by the end of it I'm like,oh, Lydia.
Yeah.
You've got a special place in myheart.
Yeah.
But Barbara doesn't like Ididn't really feel like there
was.
A redemption art for her, notthat there has to be.

(33:11):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But she kind of is the villainin the story.
In the story throughout thewhole, and Daniel.
Yeah.
And you don't really see her.
There's never a moment whereshe's like let me stop for a
minute.

Amanda (33:25):
Mm-hmm.

Kelsey (33:25):
Take stock of what I am doing and my actions and how
they're impacting other people,or my child, how it's destroying
my child's life.
Mm-hmm.
And she, she never does that.
And it was really devastating tosee that, especially as you
mentioned in the summary.
When, because Francis is havinga really hard time adjusting to

(33:47):
her mom, marrying this new man.

Amanda (33:49):
Mm-hmm.

Kelsey (33:50):
Who largely ignores her and doesn't like her and doesn't
like her.
And so as Francis understandablyis getting more moody and more
withdrawn, her mother's responseisn't to reach out and to help
her.
Right.
It's to ship her off to boardingschool because mm-hmm.
She's being troublesome andliterally leaves her there.
Yeah.
And so you see this young girlwho's trying to find her place

(34:13):
and, you know, find someone wholoves her unconditionally and
it's ends up, you know, notbeing her mom, right?
Mm-hmm.
Joan becomes that person forher.
Yeah.
So that was just devastating towatch and I mean, ultimately
uplifting because her and Joanhave an amazing relationship.
Mm-hmm.
But that broke my heart, to seea mother be so completely

(34:34):
disinterested in her child'slife.
Mm-hmm.
And.
Just so lacking and empathy andunderstanding of Yeah.
Our gross, even just so blindshe is, and how she pokes at
Joan's romantic life and has noidea what's going on.

Amanda (34:48):
Yeah.

Kelsey 2.0 (34:49):
And I'm, I'm curious, do you remember that
time where they were talkingabout this?
She's you can't bring a woman tomy wedding.
Mm-hmm.
And she was going off about thisand then Daniel takes Barbara to
the back room or something Yeah.
And tells her something and islike you need to let her,
whatever.
Yeah.
And I'm like, curious aboutthat.
Like, why did Daniel do that?

(35:10):
What is your hunch?
Oh, I don't know.
I, I have no idea actually.
I don't know if it was justsimply to keep the piece and
just like smooth things overwith Joan.
I also wonder if in some cornerof his mind he's can see.
That Joan and Francis are tightand that they get along well.
Oh.
Like I need to keep this womanon our good side because she is

(35:32):
gonna be essential Yeah.
In helping us manage this child.
Right.
So maybe that was strategic onhis part as well, because if
they had alienated Joan in anyway it might've come back to
bite them later mm-hmm.
When they then would want torely on Joan for childcare, you
know, whatever it might be.
So maybe I, I, I don't know.
I didn't spend too much timethinking about it, but it did
seem a bit out of character forhim.

(35:53):
Mm-hmm.
Because he seems very, like bythe book, very rigid in his
thinking.
Very like old school andtraditional.
Yeah, because I, it wassurprising.
I don't think it had anything todo with him knowing that no Joan
was a lesbian.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't think, but that's kindof the only thing that you would
think, right.
Other than what you just said.
Yeah, if you dig a littledeeper, you're like, maybe it

(36:13):
was more like this.
But yeah, it just interestingwhy that moment was in there.
Yeah.
Or was it, I just, the wholething, I just kept thinking
about Daniel.
Maybe he was like abusive toBarbara and I just, I I was
curious about the dynamic there.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, for someone to convinceyou to get rid of your child,

(36:35):
essentially.
That's, yeah, but she didn'tdeal much convincing, right?
She already, had one foot outthe door, like Joan was already
basically raising France.
So I don't think it took thatmuch for him to be like, yes.
No.
Then a morning school, you know,like she clearly wanted to go
and live the life that she feltwas stolen from her when she got
pregnant so young and was a teenmom.
Yeah.
So I, yeah, I don't think shewas that broken up about it.

(36:57):
Yeah.
No, she definitely didn't readthat way on pa, on the.
In the, in the book God.
Yeah.
Paper.
Yeah.
On the page in the book.
But but oh, there was one otherthing.
Oh, I was gonna say too, that Ifelt like Barbara and Joan's
relationship was very realistic.
Because sometimes when yourfamily members make shitty

(37:19):
decisions mm-hmm.
You are helping them clean it upOh yeah.
And helping them with it.
Oh, oh, for sure.
And it's like the, that cameoff, so Yep.
True.
In this book and that dynamic.
Yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
Especially that like older,younger, dynamic older sibling
Oh, sibling dynamic.
And how often, not always oldersiblings, there's this

(37:42):
expectation placed on them Yeah.
Too.
Or, or just higher expectationsin general.
Mm-hmm.
That are not, you got yourparents first.
It was like Exactly.
That is very true in my familyfor sure.
Yeah.
It's, it does create aparticular.
Dynamic that I, that I do thinkYeah.
Was pretty accurately depicted

Amanda (38:00):
mm-hmm.
In this

Amanda (2) (38:01):
story and did feel very gritty and real.
And yeah.
And you know, to be fair toBarbara, yes, she makes horrible
decisions and I don't thinkshe's a particularly good
person.
Mm-hmm.
But she, you, Hmm.
Taylor does give Barbara spacein the novel to try to justify

(38:23):
or explain why she's the way sheis, if that makes sense.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, she is, this teenmom who made poor decisions as,
as adolescent as we all do, andhers just happened to have
lifelong consequences.
But she, you know, does feellike she didn't have the
opportunities because of that,that Joan did.
And so there is resentment thereand like life is unfair.

(38:45):
I got saddled with this kid soyoung and it's kept me mm-hmm.
From.
Having a life that would allowme to pursue a job that would
help me to earn more money.
Mm-hmm.
You know, going to school, likeall of these things.
And so, like her resentment,while I'm not saying it's a good
thing, it's understandable.
Like I'm sure she's not the onlyteen mom that was like, damn, I

(39:07):
got pregnant and I made a reallystupid choice and now I'm living
with the consequences andmm-hmm.
I have a lot of big feelingsabout that.
Mm-hmm.
And she just, you know, ends upprocessing them in a way that's
unhealthy.
But you, you do see in differentconversations.
Kind of why she is the way thatshe is.
And again, not saying that it'sokay, but she's, she's a human.

(39:31):
She's just, yeah.
You know, and that just remindsme of like, when Joan was
talking about how she tattled onher sister.
Right.
But it was after she had Francisand then Barbara was gonna go
out and do the same shit she'salways been doing.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And Joan was like, fuck this.
Yeah.
Dude, seriously.

(39:52):
Yeah, because,'cause Barbaradoes have, you know, a tendency
to go out and she was a wildchild.
She was a wild child in heryouth.
And so, you know, as, as mygreat grandma would say, you
make your bed hard, you lie init.
And you know, she made thesechoices and Yes.
Doesn't, yeah.
So Interesting.
Yeah.
I loved that tidbit though.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(40:12):
Man, I really loved thedepiction of Joan becoming aware
that she was a lesbian.
Because she thinks thatsomething's wrong with her,
right?
Mm-hmm.
Because the only way that shehas seen love depicted is a man
and a woman.
Right.
Right.
And then eventually she doesn'teven see it coming.
She doesn't even see it comingand it just happens.

(40:33):
And she's having thisconversation with Vanessa And
like talking about, wait, what?
But wait, but she has thatmoment though, so gr So Griff,
who we haven't talked about toomuch.
Oh yes.
Griff is one of the otherastronauts in their group,
obviously a dude and you know,he's attracted to Joan and they
have this burgeoning friendshipand mm-hmm.

(40:54):
It's clear that he wants to getto know her in a romantic sense,
et cetera.
And at one point in the story,they take a trip down to, I
believe, new Orleans and Yes.
There's this moment and theevening and like Joan has
continued to be kind of evasivewith Griff and not give him a
straight answer.
And I think they've gone on acouple of dates at this point,
but it's just it's just notgelling for Joan.

(41:15):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that's the night when shekisses Griff?
Yes.
Because she's just maybe I justneed to like, get outta my head
and you know, mm-hmm.
Kiss this man and do what I'msupposed to do as a woman and
fall in love with a guy.
Yeah.
She realizes as does Griffin,that moment like, oh, and he
tells her like, you havefeelings for someone else.

(41:35):
Uhhuh implying that it'sVanessa.
'cause it's very clear to otherpeople that she has feelings for
her.
Yes.
And it's really that moment inNew Orleans where things start
to shift for her.
And they also go to that stripclub, right?
Right.
Before that it was the stripclub.
Right?
Before she was like, oh my God,all of these women are really
doing something for me.
And so between that and the kisswith Griff, that's like her kind

(41:56):
of little epiphany And it was sofunny, like going back to the
strip club, she like stays therefor extended time.
Right.
And she's just watching thiswoman, Raven.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And apparently Vanessa leaves,right?
And yes, Vanessa's not happy.
Joan wakes up in the morning andhas, she also is an artist and
so she drew all these photos orpictures of Raven, this woman

(42:17):
that she, the stripper that shewas staring at the whole time.
Mm-hmm.
And then

Kelsey (42:21):
um,

Amanda (2) (42:22):
Vanessa makes a comment that morning, I think,
and it's

Kelsey (42:25):
like,

Amanda (2) (42:25):
yeah, she comes to wake her up'cause she's late.
Yes.
And she's

Kelsey (42:28):
like,

Amanda (2) (42:28):
she's the only one that looked like me.
Yep.
That, to love that moment.
It was so great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a great way to kind oflike illustrate this shift that
Oh, Jonas realizing that maybeshe's not into dudes and that's
okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I honestly, I can't imaginehow terrifying that realization

(42:52):
must, must have been, especiallyin the early eighties when you
know, this really.
It was not accepted.
Wasn't accepted, you know, Imean, there were obviously
people who were queer and out atthat time, but often at great
risk to themselves.
And again, certainly not in aposition as prestigious of a
position as she was in, as, youknow, part of mm-hmm.

(43:12):
The NASA program.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I thought Taylor did areally good job of kind of
illustrating that.
And I, if I'm rememberingcorrectly, I am like, yeah,
Taylor is bi Taylor, Jen, Andre.
Oh, okay.
And so I'm sure part of her ownexperience is she uses to
inform, it's woven in heremm-hmm.
Her, her writing as a, as aqueer person as well.

(43:33):
But yeah, I really love that.
But that's seen at the, at, atthe strip club is'cause as a
reader you're like, oh, I knowwhat's happening here.
Right.
Yes.
Even though Joan doesn't fullyunderstand yet.
Yeah.

Kelsey (43:44):
Um,

Amanda (2) (43:45):
So yeah, there's a little bit of dramatic irony
happening and that was reallycool.
I liked that.
Yeah.

Kelsey (43:50):
Um,

Amanda (2) (43:50):
so yeah,, I loved that.
And then their whole love story.
Mm.
It's just, they just dive rightin.
Yeah.
And then Vanessa's

Kelsey (43:58):
like,

Amanda (2) (43:59):
yeah, I don't get attached and mm-hmm.
Vanessa's this whole thing of

Kelsey (44:02):
like,

Amanda (2) (44:02):
I don't meet family.
Yeah.

Kelsey (44:04):
Um,

Amanda (2) (44:05):
Yeah.
She doesn't wanna meet Francefor the longest time.
She's

Kelsey (44:08):
like,

Amanda (2) (44:08):
I don't wanna do it.
'cause this is just, this isfun.
And especially'cause there wasno like set future at that time
you couldn't get married, etcetera.
Yeah.
And often would have to hideyour relationships.
Oh.
But that just reminded me, oh,that's what it was.
There is that moment, which alsowas like, ugh.
So gut-wrenching.
But there's so manygut-wrenching moments.
We are Vanessa and Joan.

(44:32):
Break up Uhhuh because Yeah.
Someone in the space program hasbasically ratted them out to
their superiors.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so Joan gets called into,and I'm blanking on the guy's
name, but

Kelsey (44:44):
like,

Amanda (2) (44:44):
her super Antonio, I think Antonio and her
supervisor's office.
And he basically, in a verycoded way mm-hmm.
Is

Kelsey (44:50):
like,

Amanda (2) (44:51):
Hey, if you are gay and in a relationship, like you
can't be in this program.

Kelsey (44:57):
Like,

Amanda (2) (44:57):
Stop it.
Gotta Yeah.
Like either end of therelationship or you're not gonna
be able to stay here.
And so that really rattles Joanbecause that was, was that right
before her mission or after hermission?
Yeah, it was right before.
It was right before her mission.
Her mission, yeah.
And so she's

Kelsey (45:11):
like,

Amanda (2) (45:11):
I'm not gonna risk.
You know, my chance of going tospace.
And also Vanessa, who's wantedthis so much.
Yeah.
So she kind of calls Vanessaover, they have this
conversation and Joan ends itwith Vanessa and Vanessa's

Kelsey (45:24):
like,

Amanda (2) (45:24):
I would rather never fly again than not have you.
Mm-hmm.
But they like end things.
And then Vanessa basically goesacross the street and calls her
on a payphone, on the payphoneand is

Kelsey (45:34):
like,

Amanda (2) (45:35):
I don't accept this breakup.
And they come back together andit's really, but that's convers.
So Yeah.
I thought it was gonna be real.
I thought it too was that iswhat was gonna happen.
And I was like, and now she's inspace and she's gonna die and
they just broke up.
Yep.
Yeah.
Because again, they're switchingback and forth between the
timelines.
Yeah.
And so you're like, oh, they hadthis conversation and she's

(45:55):
gonna die and they're nevergonna have reconciled.
Yeah.
They're gonna still be brokenup, but no, they like get back
together almost immediately.
So yeah.
I.
From the beginning I thought Ihad this book pegged.
I was like, oh, Vanessa's dying.
Oh great.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
I was actually really surprisedabout it.
Yeah.
Especially not just that shedoesn't die, but because of what

(46:16):
happens with Barbara as well.
I thought there was gonna besome sort of like abuse oh, like
something's happening toFrancis, or, yeah, that's what I
thought too or be awful to heror something.
But really it was justnegligence, I guess.
Yeah.
Or what is that called?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Negligence.
Yeah.
You just aren't like taking careof your kid.
Yeah.
And then sending her to boardingschool was like a huge turn for
me.
Mm-hmm.

(46:36):
I was like, wait, what?
Didn't see that coming either.
So I was, I was pleasantlysurprised.
But the fact that I actuallycried at the very beginning of
the book.
Oh.
Where you find out Hank and whois it?
Hank, and who's the other guythat dies because it's gross.
Hank and Griffin look.
No, but Griff gets hit by theexplosion Uhhuh and doesn't die

(46:57):
right away.
Yeah.
There's two guys that die fromlike suffocation.
I thought the crew was justHank, Griff, Lydia and Vanessa.
It's just the four of'em Arethere five?
I think that there's their fifthperson.
Oh.
Because there's two bodies thatshe puts in the room where you
go out to space.
Oh, you're right.
I remember.
I don't know the other person.
I dunno, you read it morerecently than I did.

(47:18):
So when they died I was like,and Griff died.
I was just like, oh God.
Yeah.
It was just, and and they'reAndre Wre and they're walking,
the wives of these men are

Kelsey (47:27):
like,

Amanda (2) (47:28):
like in, you know, the room or like listening on
the radio and you're just like,yeah.
Gosh.
Listening to the fact that theirloved ones have passed.
Yeah.
But I guess my question for youis why do you think TJR didn't.
Have Vanessa die because shecould have, she could have, like
the book works with her dying.
Why do you think she did it?
Yeah, I mean, I think it speaksmore to'cause the book was about

(47:51):
not necessarily tragedy, but itwas about their love story as
lesbians in the eighties.
And I think that, if she lives,the reader is going to be
thinking about, oh, what istheir life gonna look like in
the future too?
Mm-hmm.
And it leaves more open thanclosed, if that makes sense.

(48:11):
Okay.
And I think that, I don't thinkI'm like explaining it well, but
I think the, the point of thestory was their love story Uhhuh
and the backdrop of theeighties.
And their story doesn't endhere.
And their their issues andconflicts are not just ending.
They, they're gonna continuethroughout.

(48:34):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I think that's like verycompelling.
Yeah.
No, I mean, like I said, I thinkit works both ways.
So I was just curious why youthink she, I mean, why do you
think there's no right answer?
I don't know if I have a goodanswer either.
I mean, I think because I thinkthere's a couple of things.
It's like one, the queercommunity historically has

(48:57):
already endured so much, right?
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes, you know, when wethink about books about race,
it's

Kelsey (49:03):
like,

Amanda (2) (49:03):
well, we don't want our race to be defined by
trauma.
We don't want race to be definedsolely by tragedy and all the
things that we've had done tous.
Yeah.
And so I think giving this queercouple a happy ending
essentially is really importantso that they're not just defined
by like their struggles, theirconflicts, their challenges.
So for me, I think that's partof the reason why she chose.

(49:24):
Mm-hmm.
For Vanessa to survive and forthem to get this opportunity to
build a life together,especially'cause like mm-hmm.
A lot of people, you know,didn't, right?
Mm-hmm.
For a variety of reasons.
Yeah.
Didn't get that opportunity.
So that was my thinking.
Mm-hmm.
Is that, as with anymarginalized group, you don't
want our stories to always bedefined by the negative, right?

(49:47):
Mm-hmm.
Because we're so much more thanthat.
Mm-hmm.
And there's like a lot of joy inour stories.
And so that was my thinking whenI read it.
Yeah.
And I, I, mm-hmm.
Really, I think providingFrancis with a home Yeah.
A, a family that truly wantedher and cared about her was
really important.
Vanessa was a part of that,right?

(50:08):
Yeah.
It's a big, it's a big part ofthat.
So that was my thinking as to,I, I don't know.
I didn't read, like I said, Ididn't normally read author
interviews.
'cause I like to make up my ownmind about things.
Mm.
But yeah, I think that's whymaybe I love seeing authors like
in person.
Mm-hmm.
That's so fun to me.
Yeah.
Especially if it's an authorthat you really love.

(50:28):
Yeah.
Like I saw Angeline Bully whatwas it, last month?
This month?
Earlier this month.
Oh yeah.
To Canada.
And it was so impactful.
I was like, damn.
Like I just felt so great afterthat.
Yeah.
And just more insight into whoshe is and like why she writes
her books.
Like it was, it was reallygreat.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I, I've gotten to see authorsspeak at conferences.

(50:48):
Like I've seen Brian Stevensonspeak twice, which is amazing
'cause he's the one who wroteJust Mercy.
So yeah, I would, I would, oh mygosh, I need to actually see if
she's ever coming to Seattle.
I would love to see TGR like inperson and go to a chat.
Oh yeah.
Whenever one of her books,doesn't she have a book coming
out next year?
I feel like I've seen, I saw it.
I've been like so caught up inatmosphere'cause I was like, she

(51:09):
just released it this year.
Yeah.
I maybe, I mean, she's pretty,when was this one released?
This year?
Well, when, this year.
Oh.
In the beginning of the summer,the end of spring.
Oh, okay.
So it's a very recent book.
Yeah.
It's it's pretty new.
Mm-hmm.
Quite new.
But yeah.
Do you have any other finalthoughts about this book or
anything that you didn't like?
Because we didn't actually talkabout the negatives, but I guess

(51:30):
if it's a five star thereprobably weren't maybe any or,
yeah.
The only thing that I thought, Ithought I had the book pegged
and then it surprised me.
So at the beginning I was like,okay, yeah, but it, yeah.
Surprise me.
Yeah.
But the one other scene that Iwanted to discuss was the fact
that Joan really loves the starsand has just so much knowledge

(51:52):
about mm-hmm.
The stars and then teachesVanessa mm-hmm.
I just love those moments.
That's one of my favoriteactivities is just like staring
up into the sky.
Mm-hmm.
I never want to go up into spacebecause that is fucking
terrifying.
Mm-hmm.
But I love the awe of looking atthe stars and not knowing what's
out there, you know?

(52:12):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so that part was special tome and hit, yeah, hit hit a
chord for me.
Yeah.
They go out star gazingtogether.
It's really cute.
Yeah.
That's so sweet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause she,'cause what?
Vanessa's a pilot.
Yes.
And you don't necessarily needto have a good grasp of the
stars to do that.
Nope.
But now that you're heading outto space, it's a little bit
different.

(52:33):
Yeah.
So, yeah, I think it was a cuteway to show their growing
relationship.
Mm-hmm.
In those moments.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely agree.
Awesome.
Yay.
Okay, well then let's wellactually I guess I was gonna do
final recommendations, but Ifeel like it's a no-brainer.
I feel like we both recommendit.
Yeah.
I feel like any reader would,could enjoy this book.

(52:54):
Yeah.
I'm even thinking like myhusband could enjoy this book,
you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he's just a very particularlike horror reader.
Yeah.
But yeah, he's currently readingoh gosh.
Fire Keeper's daughter.
Oh yeah.
Because I got him onto that one.
I'm glad he is finally reading.
It's so good.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I agree.
It's very accessible.

(53:14):
You're gonna fall in love withVanessa and Joan.
You're gonna learn a lot aboutspace in the eighties and like
the NASA program.
Yeah.
Which I found particularlyfascinating'cause I know a lot
about it.
So you're gonna learn somethingnew and from a different
perspective.
So yeah, and all of her booksare very easy to read.
You know, I think some authors,yeah.

(53:35):
Sometimes quite gifted authors,their writing can be.
A bit dense or abstract or, ormm-hmm.
You know, just difficult toprocess what exactly it is
they're trying to convey, like

Amanda (53:45):
mm-hmm.
I

Kelsey (53:46):
had that issue earlier with what is it?
Death Takes Me which is the onlybook so far.
I've dn FD this year and Ohyeah, I know.
And which, who's the author ofthat one?
It's, oh God, Christina Garza, Ithink is her name.
She's a Spanish author and thebook was translated and, oh,
it's kind of this like poeticprose.

(54:08):
Mm-hmm.
And she makes a lot ofreferences to things that I
think probably hold a lot ofweight in Spanish culture and
art, but I don't have a lot ofreference points for.
Mm-hmm.
And so I was just like, I, I cansee that you were so gifted and
this is going above my head gotit.
And I'm having to work way toohard just to read one page and
I'm not enjoying myself.

(54:29):
Mm-hmm.
I could see if I was still in mymaster's program or like my
undergrad, like diving into thisbook in a class.
Sure.
And you know, like unpacking itin a workshop of some kind or
seminar.
But I was like, for me to justread this for fun, like this is,
this is this is too much work.
Too much work.
So yeah, TR books are obviouslynot like that at all.

(54:50):
Mm-hmm.
So yeah, highly recommend thisbook.
Loved it so much.
Great.
But yeah, let's do our literallythe best or literally the worst.
I'll be reading five starreviews from Good Reads.
Kelsey's got one star.
One star.
And I will say there were fewone stars.
Good as there should be for thisbook.
I should be like, I think thisbook had a four point something
rating.
Yeah, it does.
It does.
It was very high rating.

(55:11):
Yeah.
Okay.
My first review is from Faye andI just had to include it.
It's very, very short.
Not for me, but Katie Perrywould love this.
Oh God.
Does Katie Perry read?
I don't even know if she does.
Who knows?
Who knows?
Because she was so obsessed withgoing to space, so Yes.

(55:34):
Oh my God.
Okay, well that's too funny.
My first five star is also ashorter one, but not that short.
So this is from Sophia JaneMiller.
I saw someone say that this bookfeels like TJR is breaking your
heart while simultaneouslygiving you a forehead kiss.
And I simply couldn't agree withthat more.

(55:55):
I couldn't put this book downand when I did have to, I
couldn't stop thinking about it.
The characters were everythingto me and I already missed them
so much.
Yes.
Yeah, I like that.
I really did enjoy thecharacters.
They just were very in depth,even just thinking about Lydia
and who she is, like

Amanda (56:13):
mm-hmm.

Kelsey 2.0 (56:14):
Yeah.
And Barbara, she was like, youknow, she's like a side
character.
Right.
But she still was so welldeveloped.
Yep.
Yeah.
Okay.
My second review, it's a littlelonger from reading Tam Ishly.
Hmm.
Okay.
Do you know what that means?
Is that like a play on Tamsin oris it a play on something else?
It's not a word idea.

(56:34):
It's not?
Okay.
You would know better than me.
Okay.
She did not have enough coffeewhile writing this book.
Theme on glamor.
Worked theme on sports, workedtheme on romance, worked theme
on music, worked theme on lovetriangle worked.
Theme on infidelity work.
Theme on loss worked, but thistheme went right outta space.

(56:59):
Not even once it felt like I wasreading a TJR book.
I thought it might get better asit usually does with good books,
but my life seemed shorter andshorter as the book got longer
and longer and not sorry for therating and how much I got bored
while reading this book, whichtook place in four different
occasions.
The dialogues are flat, thecharacters are flat, and nothing

(57:22):
much is going on.
Everything is flat and theboredom got worse.
TJR you are my favorite, butthis one is an easy miss.
Wait, what did, what do theymean about the four different
timelines?
There's two storylines.
I know.
Which, which two place in fourdifferent occasions.
I don't know what that means.
I don't know what that meanseither.

(57:43):
I, I was sensing it was talkingabout the timelines, but it
really was only two.
There's only two.
Yeah.
I don't know.
This person sounds confused.
Also, all they really said wasit was flat and they got bored.
That's crazy to me.
Yeah.
Because I feel like this is oneof those books where as the
person my first review said theyjust, they're, they're, they're
everything.

(58:04):
You know, like they're so wellconstructed.
They're so in depth, they're sorealistic.
This book is so much about theirrelationships with each other.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Set against this, this highstakes backdrop of these space
missions where like anythingcould go wrong and it's life and
death.
Yeah.
Life or death.
That's, yeah.
Okay.
Alright.
Well, thank you.
One person's opinion of Oneperson's opinion.

(58:24):
Okay.
Next five star is from Nina fromNinja's Books.
Okay.
I want to get this review rightto honor the book properly.
This is not a book you leavebehind.
It's a treasure that will liveinside you as long as you live.
I can't remember a love storythat has touched me more,
shattered my heart and plasteredit back together again.

(58:45):
Transcending space and timeperfectly illustrated by a plot
about reaching for the stars andpondering big questions.
It never felt trite.
Instead, I encountered again mychildhood, awe for the unknown,
my thirst for knowledge, andlooking for what makes me happy.
There was also a wonderfulsubplot of the love between Joan
and her sister's child.

(59:05):
There story was magical andreal.
Lastly, I cried.
I cried so much that I needed totake a moment to just breathe.
What kind of book is able to dothat?
This one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually did that too.
I was like listening in bed andI was just sobbing and Esia was
next to me and I was just like,oh my God.

(59:26):
It is so powerful and it really,it does break your heart and
then it puts it back together atthe very end.
But yeah, it was beautiful.
Okay.
This is my longest one.
Okay.
But I thought it was important'cause it gives us things to
talk about.
Okay.
Okay.
And it's a different perspectivethan, than us.
Okay.
Women in STEM commentary, oh,this is from Sarah Taft, by the

(59:48):
way.
Okay.
I am tired.
This commentary is tired.
The horse is beat.
The cow is dry.
The cupboard is bare.
Choose your metaphor and it'sapplicable here.
Every instance of feministcommentary has been said a dozen
times before and it's been saida dozen times better.
There's no new or uniqueapproach.
No ingenious or special message.

(01:00:09):
It's period.
Peace Ali Hazelwood.
And I mean that as an explicitinsult.
Maybe this is just my responsesince this is my field.
A sort of occupational hazardreaction coupled with the
dangers of reading this close tohome.
I don't know, maybe others feeldifferently, but I'm tired.
Do better.

(01:00:29):
And the second portion,'causethis review was much longer.
Okay.
And I clipped two differentportions of it.
Okay.
Religion in the face of scienceand queerness.
I almost don't know how to beginto address this in a way that
fully captures my ire.
How do you ire?
Mm-hmm.
So I'll simply start with a fewrelevant quotes.
I'm passionate about the MilkyWay Joan said, and I think God's

(01:00:52):
in it.
And I think the pursuit offinding one law to explain the
universe is yes science, butit's also the pursuit of God.
You are wasted being ascientist.
This is Vanessa.
Now you should be an evangelicalpreacher with that kind of face
and all this compellingproselytizing punch me in the

(01:01:13):
face and piss on the wound.
No, seriously.
There are some scientists whoare religious and ascribed to
this mentality.
Yes, Einstein was one of them,but especially in conservative
and religious circles, he isregularly cherry picked as an
example, despite his beliefs notbeing pervasive among modern
astrophysicists.

(01:01:34):
So very few of us are religious,so very few of us believe in
God.
And if you want to lookhistorically, there are tons of
other big names in the field Whowere vocal activists, active
Atheists, Hawking, FEMENSchrodinger and I can't
pronounce the last one.
If you want to write aprotagonist whose belief

(01:01:55):
structure is accuratelyrepresented of the astrophysics
collective, this is not how youdo it.
So you, Sarah?
I'm actually, yeah.
I'm glad she meant text.
We didn't talk about religion atall.
Yeah.
Does come up quite a few timesin conversations particularly
the one that you just mentionedin the quote.
Yeah, I can, I can imaginereading a book about your field

(01:02:18):
as a woman and having strongfeelings about how it's
conveyed.
Mm-hmm.
That makes so much sense to me.
And as someone who is not inthat position, obviously I
can't, I can't speak to thatfrom the I perspective.
Mm-hmm.
But I think she makes validpoints.
Like I have nothing I'm notgonna be like, oh, you're wrong.
And I would give her opinionmore weight than you know.

(01:02:43):
Mine even,'cause I'm not in thatfield.
And even more than TGR, becauseyes, she did her research, but
she's not in that field either.

Amanda (01:02:50):
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (2) (01:02:51):
I think the only thing I would push back on maybe
is the whole feminist, like thishas been said before.
Mm-hmm.
This is tired and it's like,well if something is true
mm-hmm.
Of course you're gonna encounterit many times in many different
ways, right?
Yeah.
And so I don't know that TGR wastrying to say something new
about feminism mm-hmm.

(01:03:12):
In this novel.
I don't actually think that wasthe point.
And.
If you're writing a historicalbook that takes place in the
eighties, the characters aregonna reflect the thinking about
feminism in the eighties.
Yes.
So it's gonna feel dated to us.
It's gonna feel old and tiredbecause it is you're not gonna
have them, like talking about21st century Yeah.
Approaches to feminism mm-hmm.

(01:03:32):
In the 1980s, like that would beanachronistic and make no sense.
Mm-hmm.
So I will push back on that, butyeah, I don't know.
I don't remember the commentaryabout God in the book other than
this moment.
Do you remember the otherinstances?
Was Joan religious?
Is that what was coming on?
I don't, I mean, I.

(01:03:53):
I remember her referencing God acouple of times.
I didn't, she doesn't come offas like extremely religious.
Yeah.
There's no talk of her you know,attending religious services or
having any sort of faithpractices.
Yeah.
So for me, I didn't think it wasa big deal because I, I think it
is possible to be a scientistand also believe in some sort of
divine being.
Yeah.
I don't think those two thingsare like mutually exclusive.

(01:04:15):
Mm-hmm.
So yeah.
I wonder if, if, hmm, if thisperson is like.
Making a bigger deal of it thanit is.
Yeah.
Because it didn't come off to methat either character was
religious.
And I think Vanessa even talksabout her mother disowning her
or something.
Or maybe it was Joan who didn'twant to go to church when they

(01:04:38):
were older or younger orwhatever.
And then I felt like this was ajoke from Vanessa about being
evangelical preacher.
I didn't feel like she wastalking about like realistically
being preacher.
Right.
No, she's, yeah.
She's being sarcastic.
Yeah.
There.
And the other thing too isagain, that I think this, this
reviewer is missing is.

(01:04:59):
This is historical fiction.
It takes place in the eighties.
Granted less people werereligious in the eighties than
they were in like the, you know,the forties or the fifties.
Right?
Sure.
But it still was quite pervasivein American culture.
Yes.
For a lot of households to beProtestant or Catholic or have
some sort of faith.
Exactly.
And so like that to me tracksmm-hmm.

(01:05:22):
That Joan and some of the othercharacters.
And again, she's talking abouther experience now, this, this
reviewer Yes.
Of like in the 21st century,like a lot of us don't have
faith, A lot of us don't believein God, but I'm like, that maybe
wasn't the case back in theeighties.
Right, right.
So again, she's taking herperspective from 2025 mm-hmm.
And putting it on this story andjudging it by that criteria.

(01:05:44):
And I don't think that's alwaysa great thing to do with
historical fiction.
Yeah.
And I just don't think thatthere was like a strong idea of
God in this.
No, I, I agree.
I don't think, I think that'smissing, like that's, yeah.
Yeah.
I think, yeah.
But also, like you're saying, itwas within, it was embedded in
the lives of people Yeah.
Back then.
Yeah.
And especially thinking abouttheir identity being queer and

(01:06:08):
lesbians.
Yeah.
Knowing that's contradicting thecurrent norm, right?
Yeah.
Which is religious and justsociety at large.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think that putting itin there, it supports what TJR
is trying to convey.
Yeah.
And also like they're in Texas.
Yeah.
All of the things that's alsoRight.
Also offered at the setting,right?

(01:06:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, anyway, I, I, I likethat review though.
That led to some, someconversation that we didn't talk
about earlier.
Yeah.
Okay.
This, I think this next one isalso my longest one, but it's
not super, super long.
Okay.
This is from Violet.
Any book that makes me SOB is anautomatic five stars.
Taylor Jenkins reads talent,passion, and imagination shine

(01:06:51):
through in everything shecreates.
I can count on her to break myheart every single time and will
always willingly sign up for itover and over again, although
I'm not overly fascinated byspace.
As an eighties baby, I grew upwith a certain appreciation for
the astronauts I witnessedmaking history in real time.
Those who made it back to sharetheir stories, and especially
those who didn't.

(01:07:11):
As with so many of TJ's books,this all felt so real.
It felt like a true behind thescenes look into what it was
like for those who were creatinghistory in the 1980s at NASA
Atmosphere, A love story wasjust that so much love, whether
it be forbidden, unconventional,passionate, found family, or
even lost love.
Love is love and always is astory worth telling quote,

(01:07:35):
because people never fall inlove with who they should.
This whole world is full ofstories of people falling in
love with exactly who theyweren't supposed to.
It would be hard to this bookJustice by trying to sum it up
in a few words.
I could go on and on.
Profound plus Perfect.
Come to mind first.
The only thing that would makeatmosphere better is if this
green adaptation were alreadycomplete.

(01:07:58):
Ooh.
I, oh my gosh.
Do hope they think this a movie.
Oh my God.
Could you imagine?
Amazing.
If if they did it right?
Yes.
It would be absolute freakingphenomenal.
Yes.
And I feel like we have so manyspace stories about men, like
even the one that's coming outnext year Project Hell, Mary,
the book that I read, marriedagain, it's it's a, it's a dude
in space.
There's so many dudes in spacestories.

(01:08:19):
Mm-hmm.
I wanna see like a female inspace story.
With this plot.
Oh God, it would be amazing.
Okay.
The other thing that this personsaid was this whole book is
about people falling in lovewith who they shouldn't.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, oh, that actuallytracks.
Okay.
So Barbara as well.
Yeah.
It's like she's falls in lovewith a guy that doesn't want

(01:08:40):
children even though she has afucking child.
Right.
And Griff and then even Donna's,well, Grifol's in love with
Joan.
Yeah.
And like she is not interested.
Yeah.
And Donna and Hank, yeah.
They talk about astronauts notfalling in love because one of
them could easily die, whichhappens.
Which is what happens.
Anyway.
Yeah.

(01:09:00):
That was intriguing.
Okay.
Last review for me.
It's a shorter one from Caseywith a K.
If Joan was a spice, she'd beflour.
It's okay.
It's not that that short.
It's not that short.
Just can't.
TJI is my favorite author, butmy god.

(01:09:20):
Do, do, do the characters boringthe plot.
Boring the romance.
Boring.
The pacing boring.
The vibes boring.
The plot felt so unfinished andpointless.
I hated myself for not DN fingthis.
Oh my god.
Wait, is that it?
That's it.
That's it.

(01:09:41):
Okay.
Well, they're favorite story.
You don't understand why theythink attitude is boring.
I don't.
Yeah, I I mean, I, I guess somepeople, and I did see this here
and there, scattered about somepeople are like, there's so much
information and detail aboutspace and space travel and I'm
like, I didn't think so.
Like there's definitely a fairamount in there, but it, you
know how some books, like forme, project Hell Mary did this
where it's

Kelsey (01:10:01):
like,

Amanda (2) (01:10:02):
I don't need this much information about the nitty
gritty calculations that you'remaking.
'cause I don't understand.
Yeah, I don't understand this atthat level.
Like my expertise is not in thisfield and you giving me like the
math equations that you're usingto solve for whatever over my
head don't understand.
It does nothing for me.
And I don't think she does that.
Like all of the information thatshe conveys in this book is in

(01:10:24):
layman's terms that anyone Ithink can understand.
So, and also I didn't like,retain a lot of that.
Yeah.
So if you focus in on.
Like what you're interested in.
Like it doesn't phase youreally?
Yeah.
I don't know.
And it, it doesn't get in theway of you understanding the
overall story either, so Not atall.
Yeah.
Anyhow.
Okay.
Last five star from Emma.
Catherine, let's get it.

(01:10:45):
Can't stop crying.
I have been thinking hard aboutmy review for this book, and
honestly, I can't think ofanything to say that even begins
to express my absolute love forthis book, but I can say.
TJRI could read your wordsforever.
I was emotionally invested inthis story, all the way from the
author's note at the beginning,right?
Until the very last word.

(01:11:07):
This book has so much going forit.
But most of all, it's about trueand pure love that comes in many
different forms.
These incredibly brave andmemorable characters show us how
to do that.
Quote, the world would not carefor her and Vanessa as they
cared for each other.
Quote.
That is all for me for now.

(01:11:27):
Yeah, it, it is just love in allof its beautiful many forms.
Yeah.
'cause it's not, it really is.
It's not, it's not just Joan andVanessa's love story.
No, there's so manyrelationships in this book, that
display love in all of itsdifferent permutations and it's
beautiful.
Yeah, it really is.
Yeah.
So, so, so good, but so glad Ihad to read this book.

(01:11:47):
So glad you gave it five stars.
I will probably have you readanother TGR book in the future.
I might read TGR on my own.
You should.
I would recommend Daisy Jones inthe six.
Okay.
Like fricking love that book.
What was the other?
There's curious, that was, oh,you also, you were not the only
one that recommended sevenhusbands of Yeah.

(01:12:09):
Hugo.
Hugo.
Hugo.
'cause that came up in ourprevious episode.
Came up in our previous episode,and someone else mentioned it to
me.
Oh, it was a, it was a coworkerat work.
I was like, have you read TaylorJenkins, Reed?
You need to read this book.
Yeah.
Because there's a lot of ineducation in general.
Yeah.
Like a lot of folks are readers.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I have tons of people totalk to at work about books.

(01:12:30):
Well, if you read sevenhusbands, I just heard recently
that I think Netflix acquiredthe rights for it.
Oh.
So it's gonna be made into, Iguess I'm assuming a Netflix
movie.
Not a, well, it, it could be a,Ooh, it could be a minis series,
but that could be cool becauseobviously she has a lot of
relationships.
But you should definitely readthat one.
Fun.
As well.
Yeah.
And then we can highlight it toohere.
Yeah.
But do you wanna do socials forfolks as we wrap things up?

(01:12:52):
So this is a long episode guys.
I hope you enjoyed it.
And just to redirect you at theend here we are on Instagram at
Lit Vibes only underscorepodcast and we're at TikTok and
YouTube at Live Vibes onlypodcast.
And to kind of give you anupdate, we're actually gonna be
seeing a social mediaspecialist.

(01:13:12):
So you might be seeing us up inour game here soon.
So it's true for that.
I'm really excited about it.
Yeah, same.
But yes, definitely check outour socials and as always, we'll
be doing voting on Thursday.
So make sure to hop on oursocials on Thursday and let us
know if this book was a lit orquitter for you.
Join the conversation'cause wewant to hear from all of you.

(01:13:34):
Yes.
And yeah, we will see you nextMonday.
Bye bye.