January 2, 2025 • 66 mins
This episode explores the deep connection between childhood experiences and the beliefs that shape adult relationships and self-perception. The guest opens up about their struggles with self-worth and how early dependency on caregivers formed subconscious beliefs about their value and role in relationships. These unresolved beliefs, such as "I’m not worthy" and "I must be good to exist," often manifest as codependency, fear, and self-sabotage in adult life.
Through practical tools like inner child work and shadow work, the conversation unpacks how to identify and heal these limiting beliefs. Listeners are guided to revisit childhood moments and connect with their inner child to uncover hidden emotional wounds. The episode highlights the importance of self-love and releasing stored anger in healthy, constructive ways, such as through physical outlets or reimagined scenarios that allow the inner child to express suppressed emotions.
The discussion also introduces the framework of four archetypes—Warrior, King, Magician, and Lover—to help listeners understand the roles these energies play in personal growth. The Warrior represents action and boundary-setting, the King embodies leadership and care, while the Magician and Lover reflect creativity and emotional connection. Embracing these archetypes enables individuals to balance their emotional needs and reclaim their inner power.
This episode is a profound exploration of self-healing and growth, encouraging listeners to take actionable steps toward building healthier relationships, rediscovering their true selves, and breaking free from past limitations. Whether through shadow work, emotional expression, or embracing archetypal energies, this conversation offers transformative insights for anyone seeking to move forward with confidence and clarity.
Rod Boothroyd brings more than two decades' experience of working with men and women to his current work as a Healing The Shadow practitioner. His career in the area of human potential started with his training in Transactional Analysis psychotherapy at the Manchester Institute For Psychotherapy in 1999. Since then he has taken further training in Integrative Psychotherapy, worked with the ManKind Project UK and Ireland (where he was a Primary Integration Training leader), and researched in depth the art of working with, and reintegrating, the human shadow. He is now working as a one-to-one coach and therapist, and is also a supervisor with Healing The Shadow, an organisation devoted to emotional healing and the development of human potential.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
In today's episode, we talkabout heart centered leadership.
And how you can start to bringthis into your life.
We looked at the impact parents,schools and society can have on
children.
And how you can identify andthen change your habits and
limiting beliefs.
(00:20):
Welcome to Man QuestifyingMeaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:40):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (00:57):
Perhaps the only thing that can save us from an
ecological and social disasteris that every man who can now
makes a choice to step fullyinto its king archetype and live
from that place in every area ofhis life.
Good morning, Rod.
What do you mean by thatstatement?
Rod (01:19):
Good morning to you, James.
Pleasure to be here.
And I can tell you veryprecisely what I mean by that.
That.
In a world where forces thatcould be described as dark are
encroaching on every aspect ofour lives, compliance and
passivity are no longer adequateas a way of life.
(01:41):
What it requires for us tosurvive, socially, ecologically,
and in perhaps financial ways aswell, and certainly in terms of
societies, that every man whocan, and every woman for that
matter, steps into the fullestversion of themselves, And
starts acting from that place.
And when I say the fullestversion of themselves, I'm of
(02:03):
course talking about the K MoreQueen archetype.
That is the expansive version ofourselves that has wisdom,
discernment, heart centered,loves other people rather than
seeing other people as enemies,and is caring about the planet
and the world we live in andwhat happens to it.
James (02:23):
I suppose, perfect examples of what's been going on
recently with obviously in theU.
S., but also what's going on inpolitics in the U.
K.
You have people who come intoParliament or come into as a
president who aren't really intheir king or queen energy.
So they they lie to getthemselves there and then they
(02:47):
backtrack, or they might saysomething.
I'll give you a perfect example,the other day, Donald Trump said
the cure to depression is towork harder.
Rod (02:59):
Gosh.
Well, I think there's manythings to be gained by looking
at what's happening in themoment and comparing it with
history.
So I think of Hitler, he's avery good example, and it turns
out that Hitler was seriouslyabused by his father.
Now When we're talking of abuse,extreme abuse, perhaps the likes
(03:22):
of which we can't imagine, orperhaps we can, depending on
what experience we've had inlife.
But for most people this wouldbe unimaginable abuse.
Now, what's the connectionbetween that and Hitler turning
into a demagogue?
And I think the answer is, therepression of intense rage.
(03:42):
So intense that it'sunimaginable to most of us.
The child that's abused and hasno power feels incredibly, can
feel incredibly angry.
Rage that goes beyond ourimagination.
And later in life that will playout.
One of the ways it can play outis in demagoguery, which means
(04:04):
taking office by legitimatemeans, like Hitler did in an
election.
Moving into a position of powerand then from that position of
power casting aside everythingthat democracy would hold dear
and becoming literally adictator.
Now I'm not suggesting that thisis an exact parallel with
anything that's been happeningin recent times, but it's an
(04:26):
interesting point to reflect onthat Hitler's rise to power was
supported by the majority, I saythe majority, the truth is I
don't actually know.
Whether it was a majority or aninfluential minority, but it was
supported by many, many peoplewho saw him as the solution to
their problems.
(04:46):
And what happened?
Well, we all know what happenedto that story.
around 40 million people died asa result of Hitler's inflated,
rageful way of being in theworld and his lack of humanity.
Here's the key, isn't it, James?
The lack of humanity that comeswhen people aren't standing in
(05:08):
that place you described amoment ago.
The fullest sovereign energythat they can occupy.
James (05:16):
To be able to stand in your full sovereign, whether
it's the king energy, there's alot of challenges but at the
same time there's a lot ofthings which are good so that
it's about to step into yourking there's a there's an ounce
of having to work through allour childhood traumas, our
(05:41):
childhood wounds, and to be ableto express ourselves as fully as
we possibly can in a healthyway.
Rod (05:50):
Yeah.
Well, I think you're overstatingit a little bit, James, to be
honest.
I don't think you have to workthrough all of the childhood
wounds.
It's a gradual process.
And I would be the last personTo want to discourage anybody
from making the attempt to stepinto a place that looks too
difficult, challenging, evenimpossible to reach, because the
truth is everyone can make someadjustment to the way they're
(06:13):
acting, living, behaving.
Thinking and feeling that willtake them in that direction.
Here's an interesting thing.
Well, it's interesting to meanyway, so I'll share it with
you.
I went on an Anthony Robbinsseminar, in fact, but I went on
a few of them a long time ago,and he may be doing things
differently now.
(06:34):
So this is qualified by the factthat he was doing what I'm
describing 20, 20 odd years ago,which was massive, irreversible
change.
That was his watchword, hismotto, almost massive,
irreversible change, burn yourbridges.
And he raised everybody in theaudience, which is great.
(06:55):
A remarkable feat, we're talking10, 000 people, to a pitch of
excitement and frenzy almost.
Not hysteria, but just highlyenergized.
And left them to go out into theworld, in that state, with that
motto burnt into their minds.
Burn your bridges.
Massive irreversible change.
(07:15):
Now, met some of the people thatI'd been on these workshops with
later in life and I thought itwould be interesting to ask them
how it had gone.
And generally it hadn't goneparticularly well because it
didn't stick and most of thepeople hadn't really managed it
once the enthusiasm had dropped.
They hadn't really managed tomake any significant changes in
(07:37):
their life, but I came acrossone man who did.
He went home, he resigned fromhis job, he left his wife, and I
forget the rest of the story,but it's not hard to imagine.
It was a complete and utterdisaster.
Because once he'd burnt hisbridges, He didn't have the
psychological resources to keepthat energy level going.
(08:02):
So burning your bridges andmassive irreversible change
might have worked for AnthonyRobbins, but I don't think they
work for many people.
So my watchword is slow andgradual.
Do what you can do and on thebasis of what you find out about
yourself, then do something elseand do something else.
And in that way, gradually,gradually grow, which is how
(08:24):
it's been for me.
So, of course, I would supportthat point of view, wouldn't I?
James (08:31):
Talking about slow gradual changes, the last eight
years have been slow and gradualand even though it can take a
lot of time going slow andgradual, you can see the
difference.
I can see a difference frommyself now compared to what I
was back in 2016.
(08:53):
The, I'm so much more happy.
I'm so much more on, on mypurpose.
I know what direction I'm goingin.
There's a sense of being able toconnect to my own emotions.
And so it's, it's that massive,massive changes.
But over a long period of timecan have massive impacts.
Rod (09:15):
Beautiful, beautifully put incremental change.
Yeah, absolutely.
And over a period of time, youlook back and you think, well,
let me personalize it.
I look back and I think, yeah,actually that was a journey
worth taking because it's a lotmore rewarding to be where I am
now than where I was 20, 24years ago, 25 years ago, when my
(09:37):
journey started.
James (09:40):
There's so many questions I want to ask you, because I've
read your books and I know whoyou are.
Can we just start off by tellingme about yourself, and where did
it all begin with regards topersonal growth and development?
Rod (09:54):
Sure, not a problem.
I think it's fair to say that Iwas born into a working class
family, which had some reallyunhelpful limiting cultural
beliefs about itself as afamily.
Poverty was high on that list.
You see people's experience inprevious generations to a large
extent, not exclusively had beenpoverty was the order of the day
(10:17):
for them, as indeed it was formany people, of course, not
suggesting that was in any waydifferent to a mass of people,
but of course, some people inthat situation survive and
thrive and grow out of it,whereas some take that cultural
label and move it on to futuregenerations.
So I grew up, it would be fairto say in an atmosphere of a
(10:37):
poverty consciousness.
But the interesting thing alsowas that there was a thread in
the family of skilled craftspeople furniture makers who were
making exquisitely carvedfurniture, for example.
And my father was a stainedglass artist.
So there was two threads runningconcurrently.
One was poverty and one wascreativity which was an
(10:58):
interesting environment to growup in because, of course,
creativity was very much stifledby the underlying belief that
Somehow we are poor and that'sour destiny.
And there was another one too.
Life is a struggle.
That was prevalent.
I think that things were notregarded as challenges or or
problems to be solved.
(11:19):
They were regarded as massivecrises so kind of life is a
struggle.
And therefore, if you believe atsome very deep level, life is a
struggle, of course, that's whatwill happen.
And just to make the point incase it needs to be made, I'm
not suggesting that any of thesebeliefs were consciously, people
weren't talking about them overthe dinner table.
They were in the fabric of theway they lived and had been
(11:41):
taught to live by previousgenerations.
So I escaped that to some extentthrough good schooling.
Although, and I look back on itnow compared to how schooling is
these days.
And I think, well, I was veryfortunate.
This was the era of beating andcruelty and sadistic, perverted
(12:03):
schoolmasters.
And there were at least threepedophiles in my school, but it
was a day school.
So they didn't have muchopportunity to express their.
personalities, but looking backnow, it's very clear to me that,
it was a very different worldand the beating of children.
Can you imagine, this may tosome of your listeners be
(12:25):
familiar, but to some, it maynot be.
If you went home and said toyour parents, as I did, and I
was beaten today, looking forsome support and sympathy, what,
okay.
Almost everybody who had thisexperience reports the same
thing.
Their parents would say to them,as mine did, if you'd been
beaten, you must have donesomething to deserve it.
(12:47):
Can you imagine what a denial ofthe child's right to be happy,
healthy, protected that is?
So anyway, I'm, I'm digressing.
That got me to university andthat got me into a reasonable
job.
I say reasonable because itcouldn't have been less
appropriate for me.
Not that I knew that at thetime.
(13:09):
It was an accountancy role.
And, Not surprisingly, perhaps,I discovered I wasn't very good
at accountancy, and so did thecompany I worked for, who
fortunately gave me the job ofrunning the accounts department
instead, which was much more tomy taste, and much more suited
to me, people issues and all therest of it, to find people
(13:32):
fascinating.
But, there came a time when thecompany made me redundant, and
that was aged 40.
Well, the classic midlifecrisis, really, because I just
couldn't cope.
I mean, to me, without a job,that was the end of my
existence.
So attached was I to this beliefsystem that it would be
impossible to go into the worldand make a living for myself.
(13:55):
But, a nervous breakdown,whatever that may be, means an
emotional crisis really, doesn'tit?
Led me into therapy, and goinginto therapy led me into, The
minute I went in, I was hookedand started training a year
after I'd actually, gone intotherapy myself.
And that journey has continuedin various forms ever since.
(14:17):
And it has proved to be a veryrewarding, successful in many
ways.
I don't just mean financially,but I mean in social terms, in
the exploration of myself, interms of what I've discovered
about the world, and indeed thepleasure of the creativity
that's come out in writing thebooks.
So it was a turning point that Iknow not everybody manages to
(14:40):
find in their life.
But here's the thing.
If you're at rock bottom, andthere's nowhere lower to go, the
only way is up, or staying whereyou are, and I think the
majority of people eventually domanage to find a way up, out of
that place, and it's invariablyreflects more of who they really
(15:01):
are, than what they were doingbefore the crisis.
James (15:04):
I can relate to some of that.
I've noticed myself that I havethis belief through the last
couple of weeks, actually, thatthere's a belief that says, I do
not exist.
And so I'm working, I'm workingthrough this belief.
How did that belief that yousaid that you had a belief for
(15:25):
yourself that I, I don't exist?
Rod (15:28):
Well, it's How did that impact you?
It's not quite so dramatic asthat, actually.
It's a conditional existencewound for me.
I mean, just think about thisfor a moment.
A child who's abused, orignored, or somehow completely
negated.
What are they going to concludeabout themselves in that
childhood environment?
That somehow, they're notpresent.
(15:49):
That somehow they don't matter.
That somehow their presence isinsignificant.
Well, that's what we call theexistence wound and it's summed
up in that sentence, I don'texist, but it's more of a
psychic absence, a sense ofpowerlessness or not having
presence in the world, which isbecause you haven't been met by
people.
(16:11):
Now, there's another way thatwound can manifest, which is
conditional existence, whichgoes something like I only
exist.
Recognizing that the word existdoesn't literally mean
physically, but psychically andpsychologically and emotionally.
I only exist if I am a certainway in the world.
(16:32):
So that way would usually besomething to do with what the
family expected.
So that existence in a psychicsense would be conditional upon
the child behaving in a way thatthe family expected culturally,
socially, and that might be withgreat violence and it might be
(16:53):
with great passivity and itmight be with anything else that
the parents or family raisingthat child wanted.
Complete compliance or completerebellion.
I worked with a man some yearsago who whose father was
extremely violent and his sondecided the best way to get his
father's attention would be tobe extremely violent himself.
(17:16):
And indeed he tried to kill hisfather at one point.
Fortunately, he didn't manageit.
Across the police were calledand intervened.
But the point I'm making is thatexistence isn't an all or
nothing thing.
It's how much presence you canbring to the world, how much
you're encouraged to fullyexplore who you are and show it
(17:37):
to the world, and not be judgedfor it in a way that causes you
to repress parts of yourself.
James (17:44):
So as a, so if we go back to the childhood and stuff, we
can, as a child, we're verysusceptible to our environment.
We almost are looking, how canwe survive in a situation,
whether it's with our parents orteachers or whoever it's with.
(18:04):
How does that part of ourselvesas a child, where we're
vulnerable, impact us later onin our own life?
Rod (18:14):
Well, it can manifest if, and if people don't work on it
can really restrict people.
So I mentioned a moment ago thatbelief, that was running through
my family that life is astruggle.
Now I really thought I dealtwith that.
20 years of therapy, you know,it's kind of like, and, and not
just being in therapy, butpracticing therapy in one form
(18:36):
or another, running men's groupsand so on.
So I say 20 years, but it wouldhave been less than that.
16, probably.
I went to a workshop, and when Icame out of the workshop, I
needed some groceries for when Igot home.
So I picked them up at the BPservice station, the M& S shop
there, and I carried them.
(18:57):
Five things, I think.
And I carried them in my armstowards the counter.
Now, what I'd been working on inthat workshop was my belief that
life is a struggle.
It's not really a consciousbelief, but I can see how it's
played out at various points inmy life where I've made things
difficult for myself.
Anyway, so I'd been working onlife is a struggle and I emerged
(19:18):
triumphant thinking that I'dovercome that belief system.
So here I am in the garagegetting my groceries.
I've got five items and I carrythem like this to the counter
and the guy behind the counterlooks up at me alone at the
groceries and back at me.
And he says, Do you want a bagor are you going to struggle?
(19:42):
I mean really, can you imagine?
I've just been working on mybelief that life is a struggle
and here's somebody right infront of me sending me a
message.
About what I'm doing.
Now, of course, you say, well,it's a coincidence.
You were carrying five things,it looked like it was all going
to fall out of your arms.
That's not the point.
The point is, somehow, I wasstill manifesting a belief that
(20:05):
life is a struggle.
Probably because I just broughtit into consciousness.
So I think the, the, the motto,the, the, not the motto, the
takeaway from that for me isthat it's a continuous process.
It's not an all or nothing.
It's not one event cureseverything.
It's incremental.
Like we said a moment ago, youwork on yourself and things
(20:26):
change slowly and to a smalldegree and over time it, it
amounts to a massive change.
And.
You can look back on where youcame from and think, whoa, wow.
That was very different.
If I was carrying a belief thatlife is a struggle, as I clearly
(20:48):
was, then it might play out.
In the way that I madedecisions.
I, I couldn't make decisions.
I would ponder them for days, ifnot weeks.
And just struggle with them.
Because that's the fabric ofwhat I believe to be a way of
being in the world.
And, the interesting point aboutthese beliefs is that they're
infinite.
(21:09):
There's an infinite number ofthem.
And they're quite hard to pindown.
Some of the big ones, sure.
Oh, I'll never be in arelationship.
No one will ever want me.
I'm destined to be alone.
I'm powerless.
I can't do anything in theworld.
I can't make anything happen.
Yeah, you've got to thinkeverything through very, very in
(21:32):
great detail before you make adecision.
Children should be seen and notheard, etc, etc.
They're obvious because peopleactually can bring them into
their everyday recognition ofwho they are.
But the, the bedrock of who weare, that foundation of limiting
beliefs.
Yeah, that takes some, thattakes some digging.
You And they're discoveredincrementally again, bit by bit,
(21:54):
one by one, I think.
James (21:57):
These parts of ourselves, these beliefs, and in some
respects, we would call, wouldwe call them our shadows?
Rod (22:04):
Well, they're in shadow, for sure, in the sense that
shadow is everything yourepress, hide, or deny from
yourself, and the very nature ofthose limiting beliefs is that
they're hidden, because if theywere in front of you, you'd be
aware of them, you could dosomething about them.
They're transmitted very subtlythrough the culture a child
grows up in.
So it's like when a child isborn, it's not exactly a blank
(22:27):
slate, far from it, but in termsof social interaction.
You wouldn't, well, I mean, ifyou've brought up children,
you'll know how they just absorbwhat goes on around them as the
way to be in the world, withoutever really articulating it.
That is just how life is.
Look, I watch my parentsstruggling financially,
(22:48):
socially, whatever it is, andthen I realize that that's the
natural way for humans tointeract, and somehow I
incorporate that into myself.
That's one way limiting beliefscan form, but another is quite
different.
They can be conscious.
One of my clients who went toboarding school said he
(23:08):
remembered the exact moment hedecided never to share anything
with his parents.
And that was when he'd beenbeaten and he'd gone home.
At the weekend and he'd said tohis parents, I was beaten by the
housemaster and his father saidexactly what I said a few
minutes ago in context of my owneducation, so called education.
(23:30):
If you were beaten, you musthave done something to deserve
it.
And he said, I can remember veryclearly at that moment, making a
decision.
I would never share anythingwith my parents about my own
inner world ever again.
And he never did.
He just lived within his ownsocial world and his own inner
world, but completely cut offfrom that level of connection
with his parents.
(23:50):
So on the one hand, you've gotthe cultural, and on the other
hand, you've got the result oflife's Events causing people to
form these beliefs aboutthemselves and they're not
always spoken out.
I remember also at primaryschool.
It's just flashed into my mind.
So I'll give voice to it.
Children were made to stand inthe waste paper basket in the
corner of the room.
(24:11):
If they couldn't answer aquestion.
This was primary school.
This would be age nine.
Now that never happened to me.
But I remember looking at theboys who were made to stand in
the waste paper basket andthinking.
You poor sods.
Although I wouldn't have usedthat language at the time.
It was like, it was puzzling tome.
Why would anybody do such athing to a child who couldn't
answer a question instead ofexplaining it to them?
(24:33):
I mean, really.
But the point of the story, suchas it is, What would those
children think about themselves?
What would they come to believeabout themselves in that
situation?
Nothing positive, I'm sure.
It's extraordinary, isn't it?
I mean, how do human beingstreat each other like this?
(24:54):
Well, we know they do, but it'sa rhetorical question, really.
Because they are treated thatway by others.
And they then act it out on thenext generation.
Goodness me.
James (25:07):
If we use an example of myself, you could probably
explain that a little bitbetter.
There might be people listeningto this.
It might be a little bitconfused.
Could have given quite a lot ofinformation.
And so I was going to talk abouthere is that mr.
Nice guy, the part of me that Ididn't realize to probably
(25:28):
three, three, four years ago,back in 2016 when my journey
began, I came out of arelationship.
Breakup.
And I was literally at mylowest.
I had anxiety, depression.
I didn't know where I wanted togo.
Lacked purpose.
Felt like a zombie.
(25:49):
So didn't really want to get upfor work.
Around women, I would kind ofallow them to lead, but with the
idea that if I, if I saidsomething wrong, they might
leave me.
Rod (26:01):
Oh, yes.
Where did you pick that beliefup from?
James (26:06):
I think it's something to, so in my childhood, I've, I
grew up in a farm and my dad wasalways out working on the farm.
So I got to see him very little.
So mum was always in charge.
And so there was a sense of, andI think sometimes my mum was a
little bit stressed having two,three kids and having, like you
(26:30):
said, poverty consciousnessbecause farming, that's quite
often how farming went.
And that kind of linked on toall that and my own beliefs.
Yeah.
All these beliefs from my childhood had led me to this
point where I would treat womenin a way that almost put me at
(26:53):
the very bottom.
Rod (26:56):
Yeah.
Could you explain
James (26:57):
a little bit more into that?
Rod (26:59):
Well, you know, as a child, when you feel you're completely
dependent on somebody for yoursurvival, which is what it
amounts to children will doalmost anything to establish
their own sense of safety.
even if they're completely wrongabout the logic of it.
So, you know, it would dependwhat conclusions you came to
(27:19):
looking at your dad out in thefields, 13 hours a day, seven
days a week, I've no doubt.
And your mother stressed andworking hard in the house with
three children.
What we'd need to explore wouldbe what beliefs you came to
about yourself.
But I don't know, it could besomething like women are strong
and men are weak, or, or, I needto keep on the right side of a
(27:41):
woman because my entire survivaldepends on her, not on my
father.
And you know, when you beginthinking, when a child begins
thinking like that, it's nothard to see how he'd begin to
identify with the woman ratherthan the man and be as a child,
you have no idea how to relateto women in the way that a grown
man would.
I mean, how could you possiblyknow that except by watching
(28:03):
your father's way of relating towomen?
Or if you didn't have that.
Opportunity or that was allaskew to kind of learn from
somebody who did know about thisstuff later in life So, you know
I can imagine several differentpossibilities.
Oh Women are strong, men areweak.
(28:24):
I've got to stay on the rightside of a woman to ensure my
survival.
If I don't please mother, thenshe'll get cross and dad isn't
interested in me, so I'll havenobody to turn to.
And on and on it goes, but, youknow, most of this is
unconscious, but I can sort ofimagine those three explanations
(28:44):
without even thinking too hardabout it.
But what do you think, James?
What do you think you can,conclusions you came to?
James (28:52):
I have to say In my life, generally struggled with women
especially in relationships.
And there was one relationshipwhere I allowed the said person
to treat me like crap andliterally shout at me all the
time.
And that kind of left me inalmost in anxiety and depression
(29:12):
in that moment because there's asense of I'm not worthy.
So obviously there's a beliefI'm not worthy.
I'm not good enough.
There's a belief that this ispartially where I think the
conditional belief came.
I do not exist unless I'm a goodboy.
Rod (29:28):
Oh, yeah.
Well, there you go, you see.
Absolutely.
But, you know, are you open toan experiment?
We haven't rehearsed this justfor the benefit of the
listeners.
So you just close your eyes fora moment and just focus back on
you and your childhood.
And it doesn't matter what imagecomes to mind, it'll be the
right one for this moment.
(29:49):
And tell me when you've got thatimage, how old you are and what
you're doing.
James (29:53):
I'm about six.
I'm actually crying under thetable.
Rod (29:56):
Right.
Okay, so perfect.
So take a look at that six yearold from your stepped back
position now as a man in yourimagination.
Take a look at him and tell mewhat is it that he believes
about himself at the age of sixcrying under the table?
James (30:16):
I'm not worthy.
I do not exist.
Rod (30:20):
Wow.
Anything else?
I'm not here.
I'm not here.
Yeah.
Now that's great.
Bring yourself back, James.
So you see, it's that easy,actually, to identify those
beliefs.
And I find that quite amazing.
You know, we tend to think,well, the past is a long way
back in history, like whateverit is, 30, 40 years back in
(30:41):
history, but actually,psychologically, it's very near
the surface.
And that nearness toconsciousness means they are
playing out every day of ourlives until we do something
about them.
Those limiting beliefs areplaying out every day of our
lives until we do somethingabout them.
I mean, it's extraordinary.
(31:02):
So thank you for that.
Thank you for that.
James (31:04):
My pleasure.
And what I've noticed, obviouslyof doing the work last eight
years, how doing the inner childwork, healing, but also using
the archetypes, which we'll talkabout in a minute, especially
the magician and the safetyofficer, and working out what
needs the little child, theinner child needs.
(31:27):
And what I need, and being ableto give those needs myself,
Rod (31:32):
rather than
James (31:33):
looking outside myself.
Rod (31:35):
Yes, I think that's the only way it can work, really.
I mean, if you're looking tohave your inner child looked
after by a relationship partner,you're on a road to disaster.
That's the route tocodependency.
And it's never going to work,because it's not what a woman
wants from a man anyway, unlessshe herself is in a Very
regressed place.
A child who's wounded so badly.
(31:58):
will have that energy in theirbrain, in their mind, as they
grow up into an adult.
And it will play out.
It will play out.
Because every time somethingprods that man, or woman for
that matter, it works both ways,that's reminiscent of what
happened in childhood, all ofthat stored energy that hasn't
(32:19):
been expressed will rise up tothe surface and find a way out.
And often, in a relationship, itcomes out as anger.
Sometimes violence, sometimesbreaking plates.
Now the interesting thing aboutthat I think, is that when that
happens, the person who'sexperiencing it, experiences it
(32:42):
as though that is who theyreally are.
And yet they're not that personor that energy, they are a grown
man or a grown woman.
What's actually coming throughthem at that point is the 5,
whatever it is year old childwho lives inside them.
That's why things can go verybadly wrong in a relationship
(33:04):
when two people are not meetingon an adult to adult level but
on some kind of parent child orchild child level.
Child child can be quite fun ifyou're having sex, that, I, you
know, there are places for it,but it's not appropriate for a
child's rage to erupt in anadult, so called adult
relationship.
So your question was, I think,something around, well, what
(33:26):
does the inner child need?
And I think there's twofundamental things.
The first is love, and as you'verightly observed a moment ago,
that has to come from you or meor the individual in whom that
inner child is living.
Which is not to say that arelationship can't be healing,
(33:49):
it can, very healing, butultimately when people talk
about loving another person,they say, I've heard it said,
you can't love somebody elseuntil you love yourself.
Right?
What I think that really meansis, you can't love somebody else
until you love your own innerchild.
Who's carrying all that rage,all that despair, all that hurt,
(34:11):
all that wounding.
And, and of course positivethings as well, sure.
But you can't love somebody elsefully until you love your own
inner child.
Which is where the inner childwork comes from.
I think the other main thing theinner child needs, well I could
extend it to say it needssomebody who understands him,
(34:31):
which is true I think, but theother main thing I think is an
ability to express the angerthat he couldn't express in
childhood.
Now I say, I've said this toquite a lot of people over the
years and nobody's ever reallycontradicted it until a couple
of weeks ago when somebody I wastalking to, who's also a
therapist said, actually, Ithink what the inner child needs
(34:54):
more than anything is to beloved.
And it pause, made me pause andthink about that because I've
always regarded the first andprimary need of the inner child
as to express the rage that hecouldn't or she couldn't express
in childhood because it's sodestructive to the system.
If you've got an inner child inyou who's angry and it bursts
(35:16):
out occasionally, road rage andall that stuff is about the
inner child.
Surely the best thing for theentire system is to get that out
of the body and lower that levelof anger until it's something
you can manage and holdcomfortably.
But then as I say, my colleaguessaid, no, I think the inner
(35:36):
child needs love more thananything.
It's really made me think if achild, if a man were to do.
Well, I don't know the answer tothat question because I've been
focusing a lot on anger work,both for myself, not so much
(35:59):
lately, but in the early days ofmy growth and for other people.
So I'm not, I'm not exactlydoubting that anger work is
necessary.
I'd say the moment I'm in aplace where I think.
The inner child inside us andyou and me and all of us needs a
lot of love and the ability toexpress what he or she couldn't
(36:22):
express in childhood.
And they're probably equallyimportant.
James (36:28):
Hmm.
Where could, with regards toworking through, People's
traumas, where can people startor where, where, where's the
best place to start?
Rod (36:40):
Yeah, great question and thanks for asking it.
Well, you won't be surprised tohear that since I've spent 16
years practicing shadow work,I'm going to tell you shadow
work is the best.
But you see, I, I mean, it'sreally interesting.
I think, Therapy in aconventional psychodynamic
session where you sit and talkto somebody for an hour can
(37:01):
produce a lot of emotion, and itcan go very deep, and it can
change things, but I, I alwaysfeel the healing there isn't so
much from the experience.
therapeutic conversation as fromthe relationship.
You know, it's like if a childdidn't have a house, I mean, you
(37:24):
wouldn't be in therapy, Iassume, if you had had adequate
relationships around you withpeople in childhood.
I mean, it's just common sense.
The biggest single factor inclassical therapy, determines
the outcome, the successfuloutcome of therapy is the
relationship.
It's been proven time and timeand time again, not the method
(37:45):
of therapy, but the relationshipbetween the practitioner and the
client.
So I imagine these two people ina room sitting talking and this
gives the client the opportunityto express what's never been
said and to find healing in therelationship.
And that's fabulous, but it canonly go so far.
This is why people in Jungiananalysis and Freudian analysis
(38:06):
spent 20 or 30 years.
Three times a week in theextreme form in analysis, as it
was called.
It's ridiculous.
It's like.
Something's missing here.
That is not how therapy shouldgo.
So shadow work gives people theopportunity not only to talk and
build a relationship with theirtherapist, facilitator,
(38:27):
practitioner, whatever you wantto call it.
But it also gives them theopportunity to act out scenarios
from the past in a way that thechild standing in the waste
paper basket as a nine year oldat primary school could go into
shadow work, and we would find away of setting something up that
resembled that situation, andthe child would then be able to
(38:50):
express whatever he couldn'texpress at the time, which would
generally be rage or angeragainst the teacher or his
teacher.
Whatever was necessary I had onechap who was in a similar, but
slightly different picture andwe were working on it.
And I said, well, now what needsto happen now?
He said, I need to lead theentire class.
(39:11):
In an attack on Mr.
Grimshaw, or whatever this guy'sname was.
And we need to throw all our,uh, sandwiches and drinks and
chalk and pens and papers at himuntil he's on the floor, and
then he has to crawl out of theroom.
So we had this set up andenacted it out.
And you know, what I call thisis, for the client, or for the
(39:33):
inner child within the client, Icall it, the necessary
completion of what couldn't becompleted when he was actually
in that situation.
Poetic justice, as you say,poetic justice.
And that's great.
And it makes massive changesbecause it gives people back the
(39:53):
power that they didn't have atthe time.
That's the key to that.
And then of course, there's thisquestion that we've been talking
about for a few minutes about,well, where does love come into
this?
How does love your inner child,soothe him, talk to him,
practice this every day and seewhat happens?
And gradually you build arelationship with him.
(40:15):
But a lot of people don't lovetheir inner child.
They look back on that childwith distaste, perhaps, or
hatred even.
And you'll hear them say thingslike, I was a right little sod.
And you're thinking, Oh, we'vegot something to work on here,
haven't we?
So if you're at war withyourself, I was a right little
sod.
What happens to the part of youthat still carries that
(40:38):
childhood energy when he hearsthe person he's become say that?
Do you know I was a right littlesod.
God, I deserve to be kicked bymy father because I was so
disobedient.
Now we really do have somethingto work on, don't we?
Get the idea?
Am I explaining this?
Yeah.
James (40:56):
For those who perhaps can't do shadow work or can't
get to somebody to do shadowwork, where can people start?
Rod (41:06):
Yeah, great idea.
Well, I started just by doinganger work on my own, because I
knew I carried a lot of anger.
And what did that look like?
Well, it looked like getting apunch bag and putting in the
garage and just whopping it whenI felt the tension building up.
Then just working through ittill I was kind of calm again.
That's great.
And it doesn't have to be apunch bag.
(41:27):
It can be a baseball bat on thebed, making sure nobody can hear
you.
If you're shouting at the sametime, particularly the neighbors
who might call the police orwhatever, but I'm serious about
that.
Self protection is important inall of this work.
So maybe for some people whodon't have that level of
privacy.
(41:49):
Go down the gym, do some punchbag work, do some lifting and
weights work, do some running,anything that will get it out of
the body.
That goes some of the way, but Ithink one key factor is what I
was just describing a moment agoin shadow work.
It needs to be directed againstthe original perpetrator.
So, if it's a punch bag thatyou're hitting, Then put
(42:12):
somebody's face on it.
Mr.
Grimshaw's, perhaps.
By the way, to all the teachersout there called Mr.
Grimshaw, it wasn't you, it wassomebody else.
James (42:24):
What kind of signs are there that we're actually
progressing in the rightdirection?
Oh,
Rod (42:29):
well, I think it becomes very clear.
There'll be those moments wherepeople just go, oh, what did I
just do?
Wow.
That's amazing.
I've never done that before.
Or a different sense of self,perhaps, you know, it's like,
Oh.
Okay, yeah, I can do that.
Or other people's feedback,actually.
(42:50):
Wow, you've really changed,James.
I remember when you were withCynthia 20 years ago.
My God, you were a bit of apatsy then, weren't you?
Now look at you, you're in agreat relationship.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah, yeah.
Disclaimer, James was not in a relationship with anyone
called Cynthia.
James (43:07):
Can you explain the four archetypes?
The king, the warrior, magicianand lover?
Rod (43:12):
Yeah, well, I certainly will.
It's a great model for thepersonality people have refined
it into 12 and 20 and heavenknows what, but fundamentally,
warrior, I'll give you anothername for each of them, by the
way, James, which might be moreto some people's taste, warrior,
action taker, goes out into theworld, gets things done, allows
(43:36):
you to know that you can have animpact on the world, that you
can change things, establishesboundaries, Hey, you, don't talk
to me like that.
It's not okay with me when yousay those things.
Physical boundaries, socialboundaries, emotional
boundaries.
Yeah?
So it's about action, assertion,and then of course that natural
(43:56):
reaction of anger when somebodydoes invade your boundaries in
some way.
That instant fight or flightresponse.
It's a part of us.
It can't be denied that an angrysurge in certain circumstances
is.
Is a part of who we are.
That leads us on neatly to theking, whose job is to control
the whole system, king or queen.
(44:17):
heart centered leader, perhaps,in the sense that we've seen
autocratic kings throughouthistory in Britain, and that's
not the model of kingship we'retalking about.
It's heart centered leadership,where your concern is for
everybody you're responsiblefor.
You care for them.
You don't quite regard them asequal necessarily, although in a
(44:37):
family relationship you probablywould, but somehow you're first
among equals.
That is a wonderful expression,first among equals.
So heart centered leadership,you care for people, you want
your, you want the best forthem, you look after them as
best you can, you give them theopportunity to grow as best they
can, you have wisdom,discernment, you can make a
(45:00):
judgment about what's needed andact on it or get your warrior
stroke action taker to act onit.
Imagine a mentor who was caringand metaphorically had a hand on
your shoulder as you weregrowing up.
That would be a good example ofa heart centered leader.
And of course, you know, in away every father or mother ought
(45:21):
to be a heart centered leader.
Because that's what theirchildren need from them.
Now, what else comes under theheart centered leader, stroke,
sovereign, stroke, king, stroke,queen's remit?
The magician, the thinker, the,the creative part that can
think, solve problems, come upwith solutions.
Also creative.
(45:43):
Delve into the unconscious.
There's a lot of magician workin the facilitation shadow work.
That's a kind of sense offalling on something deeper than
overt consciousness.
And people who take part inplant medicine ceremonies, they
shaman and facilitators in thosesituations will be using that
part of magician, but as also.
(46:05):
There's an, um, a particularenergy associated with each of
the archetypes with the warrior.
It's anger, which is aboutboundaries and defense With the
king, it's joy, which is aboutthe knowledge that you're good
enough.
With the magician, it's anxiety,and that's the early warning
system that something isn'tquite right.
Something needs to be looked at.
(46:25):
There's a problem in the kingdomof some sort, and the magician's
job is to go away and find asolution to that, to work things
out.
So if the poor child's standingin the waste paper basket as a
nine year old, I think hismagician is probably going to be
a bit crushed, because he's justbeing told basically, you're
stupid, you're a dunce, stand inthe corner, nobody wants to hear
(46:47):
what you've got to say, I'm notinterested as a teacher in you,
I just want to punish you.
So his magician will probably bebusy coming up with strategies
to stay safe in the world.
Well, actually, all ourmagicians were doing that when
we were children.
So, another word for themagician is transformer, in the
sense that it can take you fromone place to another.
(47:09):
And in the arena of personalgrowth, that's important,
because it's often the magicianwho finds the next step on the
path.
By the way, did you think aboutdoing that so and so course with
so and so James?
Did you think about doing thewhatever it is course?
And somehow the mysterious wayof the magician is to present
these things as coincidences orchance, or indeed in response to
(47:33):
research.
It doesn't have to be thatmystical.
That's weird.
I was just thinking about Fredand then he phoned me.
That's very magician y, isn'tit?
And then finally, the lover.
Yeah, exactly.
Lover.
That's the part of you that'sabout feeling and connection
with other people.
The way I like to, it's theprimal archetype, and therefore
(47:54):
I think probably the strongestin us.
And I always like to think of itas when a baby is born.
Is it received like this?
with a warm loving embrace, oris it received like that, or God
forbid is it received not atall, and it's rejected at birth.
Because those are the thingsthat will shape that part of it,
(48:15):
for a long time to come.
The sense of being held close tomother, On the breast, love,
being fed in that way is beingfed love, not just food.
The baby is secure.
And without that, which sadlyseems to be quite common these
days, although becoming less Ithink, as people wake up to the
(48:37):
idea that medical people don'tnecessarily know everything
about babies, and a mother'sinstinct is probably the best
thing for a baby, that'schanging.
But that desire for connectionis I think the primal drive
within all of us and continuesthroughout our lives as a very
powerful force, one way oranother, it's about connecting
(49:00):
with us, connecting with nature,connecting with the world around
us, connecting with purpose,meaning.
And of course, if you have allthese four archetypes working in
harmony, you've got a verybalanced and evolved human
being.
I've yet to meet one.
Like that, but you know, that'sprobably the field I work in.
James (49:21):
So how can we as human beings start to utilize these
four archetypes?
To start to become
Rod (49:29):
more, more balanced.
It's a great question.
And I think the answer is firstto gain an understanding of how
they operate and almost to seeyourself as made up of these
four motors or engines, if youlike, that each of which propels
you in a different function, adifferent way in the world,
Lover, connection, warrior,action taker, king, leadership
(49:54):
of self, it's not aboutleadership of others, it can be,
but it's about leadership ofself, and lover, connection,
magician, dealing with problemsand finding solutions.
Although it's shameless selfpublicity, I would say if this
is all a mystery to people atthis stage, then perhaps they
could read my first book, whichis a good introduction to the
(50:17):
archetypes.
Do have a copy there?
James (50:19):
I do
Rod (50:20):
have
James (50:20):
a copy.
Rod (50:20):
Fantastic, because I was just searching for the one
that's not on my desk.
James (50:24):
That one, that's the one inside.
Rod (50:25):
Warrior, magician, Lover, King.
A Guide to New Archetypes.
James (50:29):
I can actually vouch because I, I read the first one,
the original.
But I found it quite hardEnglish, and it's very much, it
explains the part, it doesn'tgive you any actionable steps,
whereas yours, your book is itallows you to see different
steps that you can take, whichis what we kind of need as human
(50:56):
beings.
It's great having this book ofdescribing the four archetypes,
but we need a kind of, we needa.
An idea of what to do.
Rod (51:06):
Absolutely, you're so right.
I admire Moore and Gillettebecause they were pioneers.
They were groundbreakingpioneers of male psychology.
And without them, who knowswhere we would be now?
I suppose you could say.
Somebody would have stepped inand done it.
But they laid the foundations.
But Robert Moore in particular,bless him.
(51:27):
He was a very intellectualcharacter.
I would say he was magician.
Mostly magician.
Although he was a very goodtherapist apparently.
But.
Anyway, I don't know him and Inever met him because he's no,
no longer with us,unfortunately, but I would say
on a judgment level that he wasprobably neck upwards, i.
e.
mostly in his head.
And I think the book reflectsthat.
(51:48):
It's quite intellectual.
Whereas my intention was to makeit practical and yes, I mean, I
acknowledge the debt that I oweand everybody in the field of
men's work.
And to that extent, women's workas well, because they're just
female versions of the samearchetypes.
Women tend to call the magicianpriestess, or sorceress, or
(52:11):
shaman, things like that.
But they're the same archetypes,they just manifest slightly
differently.
And I owe a great debt, as weall do in this field, to Moore
and Gillette.
And yet As you kindly observed,I think my book has a far more
actionable basis for people totake steps and we could talk for
hours about how people candevelop those archetypes, but I
(52:33):
guess the better option is justto say, if you have access to a
copy of the book.
Then, just get a copy and, I'dextend an offer to anybody who
really can't afford it,genuinely can't afford it.
If they send me through you,James, if it's okay, their name
and address, I'll send them acopy.
But that's really for people whogenuinely can't afford a copy,
(52:55):
to buy a copy.
I'd be happy to do that.
James (52:58):
Out of the four archetypes, which one is the
archetype that you see peoplehave the less or the people who
struggle to connect to theleast?
Rod (53:09):
It's a great question.
You see, Moore and Gillette,they wrote the book in 1992, I
believe.
They said that the lover was theweakest archetype in men.
I don't think that's true, and Idon't think it's true now.
I think there's no question theweakest archetype in the world,
in men and women, actually, isthe king or queen, the
sovereign.
(53:29):
You just look around the world.
I mean, it's, it's obvious thatthe decisions people are making
on a personal level are notsovereign decisions.
They are decisions coming fromquite wounded places.
You know, people who areobsessed with social media,
that's very magiciany.
People who are obsessed withbuying things through the
(53:51):
internet or Amazon, you know, Imean, these stories of people
who get five deliveries a day.
Well, It's convenient and it canserve a very good purpose, but
it's when it's taken to excessthat there's something really
wrong.
People who are doing that,they're probably looking for
some kind of reward, which isprobably a lover need.
(54:12):
People who are behaving got afew examples of that around the
world at the moment and it'sinflated, hugely pompous,
ridiculous, grandiose way.
And often in very damaging ways,they probably lack true
sovereignty.
And of course people who aredepressed probably lack true
warrior.
Because I regard not alldepression, let me quickly say,
(54:37):
certainly not all depression,some is medical.
But much depression is angerturned against the self.
And nobody people don'tunderstand this because you
can't feel that it's angerturned against the self, it's
unconscious.
But that's a lack of warriorhealthily displayed in the world
where that energy would gooutwards.
(54:57):
It's the king and queen.
Definitely.
Whatever Moore and Gillettethought back in the nineties, it
probably was for men to love it.
You know, big, tough, strong menkind of thing.
Then we had the people listeningto this might not be old enough
to remember, but we had a thingcalled the new man in the
nineties, which was farcicalbecause it, what it meant men
should be very soft and gentleand do the housework.
(55:19):
Not there's anything wrong withmen doing the housework, but as
part of this bigger picture ofthe new man, it was very
feminized.
And women.
Feminists in particular were,were adamant that this was the
way men had to go and lo andbehold, men went that way,
particularly in America, somemen, and guess what?
Women then discovered this wasnot what they wanted at all.
(55:40):
They wanted a strong man who wascompassionate, caring,
respectful and loving.
Those are the qualities womenalmost always in every survey
say they want in a man.
Somebody who's kind of feminizedand doing the housework or can't
assert himself or is passive orwhatever.
(56:01):
So anyway, I would say thearchetype most lacking now is
the king and queen, without adoubt.
Look at the way the world'sgoing.
James (56:08):
So what's the biggest challenges that we have?
If we want to bring out the kingand queen in modern society.
Rod (56:16):
Finding a reason to do it.
Purpose, to kind of, that'd bepurpose.
Absolutely, but something that'spersonally meaningful enough to
make you want to do it.
Now, why are people notmotivated like that?
Because they're surrounded byinfluences that hypnotize them,
(56:36):
you know, 27 streaming channelsfor the five quid a month or
whatever it is buying parcels onAmazon, social media in
particular engineered by socialscientists, behavioral
scientists of the utmost skillthat once you're in there, oh my
God, you're in and you're suckeddown a rabbit hole of whatever
it is, losing sight of your ownSense of control, actually.
(57:02):
And on and on it goes.
Endless news bulletins.
24 hour news channels.
What the hell is that about?
I mean, why would anybody wantto listen to a 24 hour news
channel every day about terrorsthat are happening on the other
side of the world they can donothing about, whilst they could
be doing positive small acts ofkindness in their own backyard
(57:22):
and really cheering people upand making their community a
wonderful place to be?
Fascinating, isn't it?
It's a negativity bias.
It's a negativity bias.
We're programmed to look for thenegative because that was where
danger lay.
Well, as we were evolving as aspecies, look for the danger
around, not for the positivethings.
You don't need to look forthose, because by definition
(57:44):
they are safe.
Look for the danger.
It's manifesting, I think, inall of the things I've just
described.
And really harming people'slives.
Individual capacity to takecharge of their own lives
because they're consumed withthis magician fear, if you like,
at some level of the world beinga terrible place and, oh, I
(58:07):
better stay behind my front doorbecause that's the only place
I'll be safe, or I betterconsole myself and look at
trivial things on Facebook andLinkedIn and all the rest of
them.
None of that is compatible withgoing out into the world with a
clear intention.
That fulfills you and gives youa sense of meaning and purpose.
(58:28):
It's, they are completelyincompatible pastimes.
To go out into the world with asense of meaning and purpose
requires autonomy.
individuality, focus, intention,followed by action, intelligent
thought, and probably in mostcases, loving connection with
(58:50):
other people.
None of which is compatible withwhat's being stuffed down
people's mouths and into theirbrains every day of the year.
And you can see it, peopleconsoling themselves with food
that is clearly not good forthem because it gives them their
inner lover, a sort of sense ofsomething.
food satisfaction peoplewatching Netflix because it
(59:13):
distracts them from what they'reworried about, etc, etc.
It goes on and on and on,
James (59:19):
so how can people really step up and what steps can we
start to take?
Rod (59:24):
Well, I think the first thing is, you need to start with
an intention.
That's where it all begins.
So, one of the things that Italk about in Finding the King
Within, is the need to focus onwhat it is that, I was going to
say what you're here to do, butthat's a bit grandiose, really.
(59:44):
So, what would give yousatisfaction and pleasure and
fulfill you if you were to finda way of doing it?
bringing that to the world.
It doesn't have to be anythinggrandiose.
Could be creating a beautifulgarden.
Could be forming a community gettogether once a week.
(01:00:04):
It's not about being a king on aroyal stage, ruling a country.
It's about being a leader inyour own life, in a way that
serves you and serves the peoplearound you.
So I'm not being specificbecause I don't think in this
situation I can be specific, butfinding a purpose that's
meaningful and then taking stepsto manifest it, it are really
(01:00:29):
two of the critical things andfinding the king within
shameless self publicity.
Well, I mean, it is a bitshameless, but on the other
hand, hopefully people who buythis would find something in it
that will inspire them to changehow they're living their lives,
(01:00:49):
because ultimately this is whatI wrote the book for.
And again, just to emphasize thepoint, this is not about making
some grandiose change and goingout into the world as a person
of great significance on a worldcountry stage.
This can start with yourself.
And your own way of being in theworld.
And by that, you can change thefamily environment and social
(01:01:12):
environment that you're in.
And beyond that, you can, if youwish to, you can change things
on a bigger scale.
So it's about intention followedby action and purpose and
meaning.
Something that's fulfilling on apersonal level, whatever that
happens to be.
James (01:01:33):
What is it that you can, you offer people?
Rod (01:01:37):
I was practicing shadow work in group settings.
I've stopped doing that now.
I've stopped at time of COVIDactually because obviously we
couldn't do the groups in COVIDand, haven't gone back to it
because I've been training otherpeople in that particular
skillset because, the legacy ofthe King is, you Got to be
(01:01:59):
something useful or it's notworth leaving behind and I'm
saying that with a smile on myface because as I was saying
that I was thinking of.
Victorian industrialists whobuilt these great monstrous
country houses and monuments totheir own grandiosity so that
when they died everybody wouldremember them.
it's like, we're not into that.
We're about passing something onto the next generation, whatever
(01:02:22):
that may be.
Kindness, love, intelligence,knowledge, wisdom.
So I think one of the thingsthat I'd regard as my legacy is
training other people.
It's become quite important.
It's become important to me.
And so shadow work groups run bythe people that I've trained and
(01:02:44):
there are other organizationsand they're very good too.
I'm not we're not an exclusive.
Healing the Shadow is ourorganization.
There are other people out therewho do the same thing.
So if somebody is interested inthis work, my encouragement
would be go to Find a groupworkshop, and if you like what
(01:03:08):
you experience there, which willbe very safely held, then you
can go further.
Or, if the idea of group workdoesn't appeal, then find an
individual one to onefacilitator.
And sure, the experience will bedifferent, but it can still be
(01:03:28):
just as powerful as the groupsetting.
And I know some people will findthe idea of working in a group a
bit scary, and that's quiteunderstandable.
So in both of the books, thereare resources that will help
people find The appropriate wayto practice shadow work, if
that's what they want to do.
(01:03:50):
And just to conclude, James,there are other ways too, that
are independent of groupfacilitation or one to one
facilitation.
And that's self facilitation.
Set the intention to go on ajourney of self discovery and
self development.
And what that might mean, forexample, is try many different
(01:04:11):
things.
Join an organization likeToastmasters and learn the art
of public speaking.
One of the biggest fears I'mabsolutely convinced is public
speaking.
It's extraordinary.
I mean, I can see why it's soscary, but when I think about it
as an abstract concept, it'slike, why would that terrify
(01:04:34):
people so much?
Being seen to not be goodenough, king wound, queen wound,
and by doing those things.
You can learn that you have morecapacity than you ever imagined
you would have.
Go to a night school class ifyou have one.
Pottery, if you don't fancysomething intellectual.
(01:04:54):
I suppose pottery is creativemore than intellectual, I don't
know.
Art, music, it's something moreintellectual.
Literature, study of literature.
But there are plenty of waysthat people can develop their
potential just by exploring whatthe world has to offer them in a
(01:05:15):
non therapeutic setting.
Join the local men's group,local men's shed and spend
Saturday morning with yourfellow men chatting about this,
that and mending toasters orwhatever it's doing for the
community.
That was actually one of theways that I started out.
I was doing therapy for sure.
But I thought I needed tochallenge myself on many
(01:05:37):
different levels.
And I took up parachuting,abseiling, and rock scrambling.
And although it would be hard toexplain just what effect they
did have on me, they certainlyhad an impact.
They ra Oh well actually, theyraised my courage.
They did indeed.
(01:05:57):
They raised my courage.
So that I could then do otherthings like start going to
public speaking with moreconfidence.
So everything that'sdevelopmental somehow meshes
together to kind of really growthe person who's, who's got a
motivation to grow.
That's, I think that what itcomes down to.
James (01:06:17):
Yeah, I can over the last, well, over my life, I've
done so many different things.
It just kind of links up.
And there's no particular onething which has helped me to
heal.
It's always been many, many,many different things.
Thank you very much, Rod.
It's been an absolute pleasurechatting to you.
Straight back at you.
In today's episode, we talkabout heart centered leadership.
And how you can start to bringthis into your life.
We looked at the impact parents,schools and society can have on
children.
And how you can identify andthen change your habits and
limiting beliefs.
(00:20):
Welcome to Man QuestifyingMeaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:40):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (00:57):
Perhaps the only thing that can save us from an
ecological and social disasteris that every man who can now
makes a choice to step fullyinto its king archetype and live
from that place in every area ofhis life.
Good morning, Rod.
What do you mean by thatstatement?
Rod (01:19):
Good morning to you, James.
Pleasure to be here.
And I can tell you veryprecisely what I mean by that.
That.
In a world where forces thatcould be described as dark are
encroaching on every aspect ofour lives, compliance and
passivity are no longer adequateas a way of life.
(01:41):
What it requires for us tosurvive, socially, ecologically,
and in perhaps financial ways aswell, and certainly in terms of
societies, that every man whocan, and every woman for that
matter, steps into the fullestversion of themselves, And
starts acting from that place.
And when I say the fullestversion of themselves, I'm of
(02:03):
course talking about the K MoreQueen archetype.
That is the expansive version ofourselves that has wisdom,
discernment, heart centered,loves other people rather than
seeing other people as enemies,and is caring about the planet
and the world we live in andwhat happens to it.
James (02:23):
I suppose, perfect examples of what's been going on
recently with obviously in theU.
S., but also what's going on inpolitics in the U.
K.
You have people who come intoParliament or come into as a
president who aren't really intheir king or queen energy.
So they they lie to getthemselves there and then they
(02:47):
backtrack, or they might saysomething.
I'll give you a perfect example,the other day, Donald Trump said
the cure to depression is towork harder.
Rod (02:59):
Gosh.
Well, I think there's manythings to be gained by looking
at what's happening in themoment and comparing it with
history.
So I think of Hitler, he's avery good example, and it turns
out that Hitler was seriouslyabused by his father.
Now When we're talking of abuse,extreme abuse, perhaps the likes
(03:22):
of which we can't imagine, orperhaps we can, depending on
what experience we've had inlife.
But for most people this wouldbe unimaginable abuse.
Now, what's the connectionbetween that and Hitler turning
into a demagogue?
And I think the answer is, therepression of intense rage.
(03:42):
So intense that it'sunimaginable to most of us.
The child that's abused and hasno power feels incredibly, can
feel incredibly angry.
Rage that goes beyond ourimagination.
And later in life that will playout.
One of the ways it can play outis in demagoguery, which means
(04:04):
taking office by legitimatemeans, like Hitler did in an
election.
Moving into a position of powerand then from that position of
power casting aside everythingthat democracy would hold dear
and becoming literally adictator.
Now I'm not suggesting that thisis an exact parallel with
anything that's been happeningin recent times, but it's an
(04:26):
interesting point to reflect onthat Hitler's rise to power was
supported by the majority, I saythe majority, the truth is I
don't actually know.
Whether it was a majority or aninfluential minority, but it was
supported by many, many peoplewho saw him as the solution to
their problems.
(04:46):
And what happened?
Well, we all know what happenedto that story.
around 40 million people died asa result of Hitler's inflated,
rageful way of being in theworld and his lack of humanity.
Here's the key, isn't it, James?
The lack of humanity that comeswhen people aren't standing in
(05:08):
that place you described amoment ago.
The fullest sovereign energythat they can occupy.
James (05:16):
To be able to stand in your full sovereign, whether
it's the king energy, there's alot of challenges but at the
same time there's a lot ofthings which are good so that
it's about to step into yourking there's a there's an ounce
of having to work through allour childhood traumas, our
(05:41):
childhood wounds, and to be ableto express ourselves as fully as
we possibly can in a healthyway.
Rod (05:50):
Yeah.
Well, I think you're overstatingit a little bit, James, to be
honest.
I don't think you have to workthrough all of the childhood
wounds.
It's a gradual process.
And I would be the last personTo want to discourage anybody
from making the attempt to stepinto a place that looks too
difficult, challenging, evenimpossible to reach, because the
truth is everyone can make someadjustment to the way they're
(06:13):
acting, living, behaving.
Thinking and feeling that willtake them in that direction.
Here's an interesting thing.
Well, it's interesting to meanyway, so I'll share it with
you.
I went on an Anthony Robbinsseminar, in fact, but I went on
a few of them a long time ago,and he may be doing things
differently now.
(06:34):
So this is qualified by the factthat he was doing what I'm
describing 20, 20 odd years ago,which was massive, irreversible
change.
That was his watchword, hismotto, almost massive,
irreversible change, burn yourbridges.
And he raised everybody in theaudience, which is great.
(06:55):
A remarkable feat, we're talking10, 000 people, to a pitch of
excitement and frenzy almost.
Not hysteria, but just highlyenergized.
And left them to go out into theworld, in that state, with that
motto burnt into their minds.
Burn your bridges.
Massive irreversible change.
(07:15):
Now, met some of the people thatI'd been on these workshops with
later in life and I thought itwould be interesting to ask them
how it had gone.
And generally it hadn't goneparticularly well because it
didn't stick and most of thepeople hadn't really managed it
once the enthusiasm had dropped.
They hadn't really managed tomake any significant changes in
(07:37):
their life, but I came acrossone man who did.
He went home, he resigned fromhis job, he left his wife, and I
forget the rest of the story,but it's not hard to imagine.
It was a complete and utterdisaster.
Because once he'd burnt hisbridges, He didn't have the
psychological resources to keepthat energy level going.
(08:02):
So burning your bridges andmassive irreversible change
might have worked for AnthonyRobbins, but I don't think they
work for many people.
So my watchword is slow andgradual.
Do what you can do and on thebasis of what you find out about
yourself, then do something elseand do something else.
And in that way, gradually,gradually grow, which is how
(08:24):
it's been for me.
So, of course, I would supportthat point of view, wouldn't I?
James (08:31):
Talking about slow gradual changes, the last eight
years have been slow and gradualand even though it can take a
lot of time going slow andgradual, you can see the
difference.
I can see a difference frommyself now compared to what I
was back in 2016.
(08:53):
The, I'm so much more happy.
I'm so much more on, on mypurpose.
I know what direction I'm goingin.
There's a sense of being able toconnect to my own emotions.
And so it's, it's that massive,massive changes.
But over a long period of timecan have massive impacts.
Rod (09:15):
Beautiful, beautifully put incremental change.
Yeah, absolutely.
And over a period of time, youlook back and you think, well,
let me personalize it.
I look back and I think, yeah,actually that was a journey
worth taking because it's a lotmore rewarding to be where I am
now than where I was 20, 24years ago, 25 years ago, when my
(09:37):
journey started.
James (09:40):
There's so many questions I want to ask you, because I've
read your books and I know whoyou are.
Can we just start off by tellingme about yourself, and where did
it all begin with regards topersonal growth and development?
Rod (09:54):
Sure, not a problem.
I think it's fair to say that Iwas born into a working class
family, which had some reallyunhelpful limiting cultural
beliefs about itself as afamily.
Poverty was high on that list.
You see people's experience inprevious generations to a large
extent, not exclusively had beenpoverty was the order of the day
(10:17):
for them, as indeed it was formany people, of course, not
suggesting that was in any waydifferent to a mass of people,
but of course, some people inthat situation survive and
thrive and grow out of it,whereas some take that cultural
label and move it on to futuregenerations.
So I grew up, it would be fairto say in an atmosphere of a
(10:37):
poverty consciousness.
But the interesting thing alsowas that there was a thread in
the family of skilled craftspeople furniture makers who were
making exquisitely carvedfurniture, for example.
And my father was a stainedglass artist.
So there was two threads runningconcurrently.
One was poverty and one wascreativity which was an
(10:58):
interesting environment to growup in because, of course,
creativity was very much stifledby the underlying belief that
Somehow we are poor and that'sour destiny.
And there was another one too.
Life is a struggle.
That was prevalent.
I think that things were notregarded as challenges or or
problems to be solved.
(11:19):
They were regarded as massivecrises so kind of life is a
struggle.
And therefore, if you believe atsome very deep level, life is a
struggle, of course, that's whatwill happen.
And just to make the point incase it needs to be made, I'm
not suggesting that any of thesebeliefs were consciously, people
weren't talking about them overthe dinner table.
They were in the fabric of theway they lived and had been
(11:41):
taught to live by previousgenerations.
So I escaped that to some extentthrough good schooling.
Although, and I look back on itnow compared to how schooling is
these days.
And I think, well, I was veryfortunate.
This was the era of beating andcruelty and sadistic, perverted
(12:03):
schoolmasters.
And there were at least threepedophiles in my school, but it
was a day school.
So they didn't have muchopportunity to express their.
personalities, but looking backnow, it's very clear to me that,
it was a very different worldand the beating of children.
Can you imagine, this may tosome of your listeners be
(12:25):
familiar, but to some, it maynot be.
If you went home and said toyour parents, as I did, and I
was beaten today, looking forsome support and sympathy, what,
okay.
Almost everybody who had thisexperience reports the same
thing.
Their parents would say to them,as mine did, if you'd been
beaten, you must have donesomething to deserve it.
(12:47):
Can you imagine what a denial ofthe child's right to be happy,
healthy, protected that is?
So anyway, I'm, I'm digressing.
That got me to university andthat got me into a reasonable
job.
I say reasonable because itcouldn't have been less
appropriate for me.
Not that I knew that at thetime.
(13:09):
It was an accountancy role.
And, Not surprisingly, perhaps,I discovered I wasn't very good
at accountancy, and so did thecompany I worked for, who
fortunately gave me the job ofrunning the accounts department
instead, which was much more tomy taste, and much more suited
to me, people issues and all therest of it, to find people
(13:32):
fascinating.
But, there came a time when thecompany made me redundant, and
that was aged 40.
Well, the classic midlifecrisis, really, because I just
couldn't cope.
I mean, to me, without a job,that was the end of my
existence.
So attached was I to this beliefsystem that it would be
impossible to go into the worldand make a living for myself.
(13:55):
But, a nervous breakdown,whatever that may be, means an
emotional crisis really, doesn'tit?
Led me into therapy, and goinginto therapy led me into, The
minute I went in, I was hookedand started training a year
after I'd actually, gone intotherapy myself.
And that journey has continuedin various forms ever since.
(14:17):
And it has proved to be a veryrewarding, successful in many
ways.
I don't just mean financially,but I mean in social terms, in
the exploration of myself, interms of what I've discovered
about the world, and indeed thepleasure of the creativity
that's come out in writing thebooks.
So it was a turning point that Iknow not everybody manages to
(14:40):
find in their life.
But here's the thing.
If you're at rock bottom, andthere's nowhere lower to go, the
only way is up, or staying whereyou are, and I think the
majority of people eventually domanage to find a way up, out of
that place, and it's invariablyreflects more of who they really
(15:01):
are, than what they were doingbefore the crisis.
James (15:04):
I can relate to some of that.
I've noticed myself that I havethis belief through the last
couple of weeks, actually, thatthere's a belief that says, I do
not exist.
And so I'm working, I'm workingthrough this belief.
How did that belief that yousaid that you had a belief for
(15:25):
yourself that I, I don't exist?
Rod (15:28):
Well, it's How did that impact you?
It's not quite so dramatic asthat, actually.
It's a conditional existencewound for me.
I mean, just think about thisfor a moment.
A child who's abused, orignored, or somehow completely
negated.
What are they going to concludeabout themselves in that
childhood environment?
That somehow, they're notpresent.
(15:49):
That somehow they don't matter.
That somehow their presence isinsignificant.
Well, that's what we call theexistence wound and it's summed
up in that sentence, I don'texist, but it's more of a
psychic absence, a sense ofpowerlessness or not having
presence in the world, which isbecause you haven't been met by
people.
(16:11):
Now, there's another way thatwound can manifest, which is
conditional existence, whichgoes something like I only
exist.
Recognizing that the word existdoesn't literally mean
physically, but psychically andpsychologically and emotionally.
I only exist if I am a certainway in the world.
(16:32):
So that way would usually besomething to do with what the
family expected.
So that existence in a psychicsense would be conditional upon
the child behaving in a way thatthe family expected culturally,
socially, and that might be withgreat violence and it might be
(16:53):
with great passivity and itmight be with anything else that
the parents or family raisingthat child wanted.
Complete compliance or completerebellion.
I worked with a man some yearsago who whose father was
extremely violent and his sondecided the best way to get his
father's attention would be tobe extremely violent himself.
(17:16):
And indeed he tried to kill hisfather at one point.
Fortunately, he didn't manageit.
Across the police were calledand intervened.
But the point I'm making is thatexistence isn't an all or
nothing thing.
It's how much presence you canbring to the world, how much
you're encouraged to fullyexplore who you are and show it
(17:37):
to the world, and not be judgedfor it in a way that causes you
to repress parts of yourself.
James (17:44):
So as a, so if we go back to the childhood and stuff, we
can, as a child, we're verysusceptible to our environment.
We almost are looking, how canwe survive in a situation,
whether it's with our parents orteachers or whoever it's with.
(18:04):
How does that part of ourselvesas a child, where we're
vulnerable, impact us later onin our own life?
Rod (18:14):
Well, it can manifest if, and if people don't work on it
can really restrict people.
So I mentioned a moment ago thatbelief, that was running through
my family that life is astruggle.
Now I really thought I dealtwith that.
20 years of therapy, you know,it's kind of like, and, and not
just being in therapy, butpracticing therapy in one form
(18:36):
or another, running men's groupsand so on.
So I say 20 years, but it wouldhave been less than that.
16, probably.
I went to a workshop, and when Icame out of the workshop, I
needed some groceries for when Igot home.
So I picked them up at the BPservice station, the M& S shop
there, and I carried them.
(18:57):
Five things, I think.
And I carried them in my armstowards the counter.
Now, what I'd been working on inthat workshop was my belief that
life is a struggle.
It's not really a consciousbelief, but I can see how it's
played out at various points inmy life where I've made things
difficult for myself.
Anyway, so I'd been working onlife is a struggle and I emerged
(19:18):
triumphant thinking that I'dovercome that belief system.
So here I am in the garagegetting my groceries.
I've got five items and I carrythem like this to the counter
and the guy behind the counterlooks up at me alone at the
groceries and back at me.
And he says, Do you want a bagor are you going to struggle?
(19:42):
I mean really, can you imagine?
I've just been working on mybelief that life is a struggle
and here's somebody right infront of me sending me a
message.
About what I'm doing.
Now, of course, you say, well,it's a coincidence.
You were carrying five things,it looked like it was all going
to fall out of your arms.
That's not the point.
The point is, somehow, I wasstill manifesting a belief that
(20:05):
life is a struggle.
Probably because I just broughtit into consciousness.
So I think the, the, the motto,the, the, not the motto, the
takeaway from that for me isthat it's a continuous process.
It's not an all or nothing.
It's not one event cureseverything.
It's incremental.
Like we said a moment ago, youwork on yourself and things
(20:26):
change slowly and to a smalldegree and over time it, it
amounts to a massive change.
And.
You can look back on where youcame from and think, whoa, wow.
That was very different.
If I was carrying a belief thatlife is a struggle, as I clearly
(20:48):
was, then it might play out.
In the way that I madedecisions.
I, I couldn't make decisions.
I would ponder them for days, ifnot weeks.
And just struggle with them.
Because that's the fabric ofwhat I believe to be a way of
being in the world.
And, the interesting point aboutthese beliefs is that they're
infinite.
(21:09):
There's an infinite number ofthem.
And they're quite hard to pindown.
Some of the big ones, sure.
Oh, I'll never be in arelationship.
No one will ever want me.
I'm destined to be alone.
I'm powerless.
I can't do anything in theworld.
I can't make anything happen.
Yeah, you've got to thinkeverything through very, very in
(21:32):
great detail before you make adecision.
Children should be seen and notheard, etc, etc.
They're obvious because peopleactually can bring them into
their everyday recognition ofwho they are.
But the, the bedrock of who weare, that foundation of limiting
beliefs.
Yeah, that takes some, thattakes some digging.
You And they're discoveredincrementally again, bit by bit,
(21:54):
one by one, I think.
James (21:57):
These parts of ourselves, these beliefs, and in some
respects, we would call, wouldwe call them our shadows?
Rod (22:04):
Well, they're in shadow, for sure, in the sense that
shadow is everything yourepress, hide, or deny from
yourself, and the very nature ofthose limiting beliefs is that
they're hidden, because if theywere in front of you, you'd be
aware of them, you could dosomething about them.
They're transmitted very subtlythrough the culture a child
grows up in.
So it's like when a child isborn, it's not exactly a blank
(22:27):
slate, far from it, but in termsof social interaction.
You wouldn't, well, I mean, ifyou've brought up children,
you'll know how they just absorbwhat goes on around them as the
way to be in the world, withoutever really articulating it.
That is just how life is.
Look, I watch my parentsstruggling financially,
(22:48):
socially, whatever it is, andthen I realize that that's the
natural way for humans tointeract, and somehow I
incorporate that into myself.
That's one way limiting beliefscan form, but another is quite
different.
They can be conscious.
One of my clients who went toboarding school said he
(23:08):
remembered the exact moment hedecided never to share anything
with his parents.
And that was when he'd beenbeaten and he'd gone home.
At the weekend and he'd said tohis parents, I was beaten by the
housemaster and his father saidexactly what I said a few
minutes ago in context of my owneducation, so called education.
(23:30):
If you were beaten, you musthave done something to deserve
it.
And he said, I can remember veryclearly at that moment, making a
decision.
I would never share anythingwith my parents about my own
inner world ever again.
And he never did.
He just lived within his ownsocial world and his own inner
world, but completely cut offfrom that level of connection
with his parents.
(23:50):
So on the one hand, you've gotthe cultural, and on the other
hand, you've got the result oflife's Events causing people to
form these beliefs aboutthemselves and they're not
always spoken out.
I remember also at primaryschool.
It's just flashed into my mind.
So I'll give voice to it.
Children were made to stand inthe waste paper basket in the
corner of the room.
(24:11):
If they couldn't answer aquestion.
This was primary school.
This would be age nine.
Now that never happened to me.
But I remember looking at theboys who were made to stand in
the waste paper basket andthinking.
You poor sods.
Although I wouldn't have usedthat language at the time.
It was like, it was puzzling tome.
Why would anybody do such athing to a child who couldn't
answer a question instead ofexplaining it to them?
(24:33):
I mean, really.
But the point of the story, suchas it is, What would those
children think about themselves?
What would they come to believeabout themselves in that
situation?
Nothing positive, I'm sure.
It's extraordinary, isn't it?
I mean, how do human beingstreat each other like this?
(24:54):
Well, we know they do, but it'sa rhetorical question, really.
Because they are treated thatway by others.
And they then act it out on thenext generation.
Goodness me.
James (25:07):
If we use an example of myself, you could probably
explain that a little bitbetter.
There might be people listeningto this.
It might be a little bitconfused.
Could have given quite a lot ofinformation.
And so I was going to talk abouthere is that mr.
Nice guy, the part of me that Ididn't realize to probably
(25:28):
three, three, four years ago,back in 2016 when my journey
began, I came out of arelationship.
Breakup.
And I was literally at mylowest.
I had anxiety, depression.
I didn't know where I wanted togo.
Lacked purpose.
Felt like a zombie.
(25:49):
So didn't really want to get upfor work.
Around women, I would kind ofallow them to lead, but with the
idea that if I, if I saidsomething wrong, they might
leave me.
Rod (26:01):
Oh, yes.
Where did you pick that beliefup from?
James (26:06):
I think it's something to, so in my childhood, I've, I
grew up in a farm and my dad wasalways out working on the farm.
So I got to see him very little.
So mum was always in charge.
And so there was a sense of, andI think sometimes my mum was a
little bit stressed having two,three kids and having, like you
(26:30):
said, poverty consciousnessbecause farming, that's quite
often how farming went.
And that kind of linked on toall that and my own beliefs.
Yeah.
All these beliefs from my childhood had led me to this
point where I would treat womenin a way that almost put me at
(26:53):
the very bottom.
Rod (26:56):
Yeah.
Could you explain
James (26:57):
a little bit more into that?
Rod (26:59):
Well, you know, as a child, when you feel you're completely
dependent on somebody for yoursurvival, which is what it
amounts to children will doalmost anything to establish
their own sense of safety.
even if they're completely wrongabout the logic of it.
So, you know, it would dependwhat conclusions you came to
(27:19):
looking at your dad out in thefields, 13 hours a day, seven
days a week, I've no doubt.
And your mother stressed andworking hard in the house with
three children.
What we'd need to explore wouldbe what beliefs you came to
about yourself.
But I don't know, it could besomething like women are strong
and men are weak, or, or, I needto keep on the right side of a
(27:41):
woman because my entire survivaldepends on her, not on my
father.
And you know, when you beginthinking, when a child begins
thinking like that, it's nothard to see how he'd begin to
identify with the woman ratherthan the man and be as a child,
you have no idea how to relateto women in the way that a grown
man would.
I mean, how could you possiblyknow that except by watching
(28:03):
your father's way of relating towomen?
Or if you didn't have that.
Opportunity or that was allaskew to kind of learn from
somebody who did know about thisstuff later in life So, you know
I can imagine several differentpossibilities.
Oh Women are strong, men areweak.
(28:24):
I've got to stay on the rightside of a woman to ensure my
survival.
If I don't please mother, thenshe'll get cross and dad isn't
interested in me, so I'll havenobody to turn to.
And on and on it goes, but, youknow, most of this is
unconscious, but I can sort ofimagine those three explanations
(28:44):
without even thinking too hardabout it.
But what do you think, James?
What do you think you can,conclusions you came to?
James (28:52):
I have to say In my life, generally struggled with women
especially in relationships.
And there was one relationshipwhere I allowed the said person
to treat me like crap andliterally shout at me all the
time.
And that kind of left me inalmost in anxiety and depression
(29:12):
in that moment because there's asense of I'm not worthy.
So obviously there's a beliefI'm not worthy.
I'm not good enough.
There's a belief that this ispartially where I think the
conditional belief came.
I do not exist unless I'm a goodboy.
Rod (29:28):
Oh, yeah.
Well, there you go, you see.
Absolutely.
But, you know, are you open toan experiment?
We haven't rehearsed this justfor the benefit of the
listeners.
So you just close your eyes fora moment and just focus back on
you and your childhood.
And it doesn't matter what imagecomes to mind, it'll be the
right one for this moment.
(29:49):
And tell me when you've got thatimage, how old you are and what
you're doing.
James (29:53):
I'm about six.
I'm actually crying under thetable.
Rod (29:56):
Right.
Okay, so perfect.
So take a look at that six yearold from your stepped back
position now as a man in yourimagination.
Take a look at him and tell mewhat is it that he believes
about himself at the age of sixcrying under the table?
James (30:16):
I'm not worthy.
I do not exist.
Rod (30:20):
Wow.
Anything else?
I'm not here.
I'm not here.
Yeah.
Now that's great.
Bring yourself back, James.
So you see, it's that easy,actually, to identify those
beliefs.
And I find that quite amazing.
You know, we tend to think,well, the past is a long way
back in history, like whateverit is, 30, 40 years back in
(30:41):
history, but actually,psychologically, it's very near
the surface.
And that nearness toconsciousness means they are
playing out every day of ourlives until we do something
about them.
Those limiting beliefs areplaying out every day of our
lives until we do somethingabout them.
I mean, it's extraordinary.
(31:02):
So thank you for that.
Thank you for that.
James (31:04):
My pleasure.
And what I've noticed, obviouslyof doing the work last eight
years, how doing the inner childwork, healing, but also using
the archetypes, which we'll talkabout in a minute, especially
the magician and the safetyofficer, and working out what
needs the little child, theinner child needs.
(31:27):
And what I need, and being ableto give those needs myself,
Rod (31:32):
rather than
James (31:33):
looking outside myself.
Rod (31:35):
Yes, I think that's the only way it can work, really.
I mean, if you're looking tohave your inner child looked
after by a relationship partner,you're on a road to disaster.
That's the route tocodependency.
And it's never going to work,because it's not what a woman
wants from a man anyway, unlessshe herself is in a Very
regressed place.
A child who's wounded so badly.
(31:58):
will have that energy in theirbrain, in their mind, as they
grow up into an adult.
And it will play out.
It will play out.
Because every time somethingprods that man, or woman for
that matter, it works both ways,that's reminiscent of what
happened in childhood, all ofthat stored energy that hasn't
(32:19):
been expressed will rise up tothe surface and find a way out.
And often, in a relationship, itcomes out as anger.
Sometimes violence, sometimesbreaking plates.
Now the interesting thing aboutthat I think, is that when that
happens, the person who'sexperiencing it, experiences it
(32:42):
as though that is who theyreally are.
And yet they're not that personor that energy, they are a grown
man or a grown woman.
What's actually coming throughthem at that point is the 5,
whatever it is year old childwho lives inside them.
That's why things can go verybadly wrong in a relationship
(33:04):
when two people are not meetingon an adult to adult level but
on some kind of parent child orchild child level.
Child child can be quite fun ifyou're having sex, that, I, you
know, there are places for it,but it's not appropriate for a
child's rage to erupt in anadult, so called adult
relationship.
So your question was, I think,something around, well, what
(33:26):
does the inner child need?
And I think there's twofundamental things.
The first is love, and as you'verightly observed a moment ago,
that has to come from you or meor the individual in whom that
inner child is living.
Which is not to say that arelationship can't be healing,
(33:49):
it can, very healing, butultimately when people talk
about loving another person,they say, I've heard it said,
you can't love somebody elseuntil you love yourself.
Right?
What I think that really meansis, you can't love somebody else
until you love your own innerchild.
Who's carrying all that rage,all that despair, all that hurt,
(34:11):
all that wounding.
And, and of course positivethings as well, sure.
But you can't love somebody elsefully until you love your own
inner child.
Which is where the inner childwork comes from.
I think the other main thing theinner child needs, well I could
extend it to say it needssomebody who understands him,
(34:31):
which is true I think, but theother main thing I think is an
ability to express the angerthat he couldn't express in
childhood.
Now I say, I've said this toquite a lot of people over the
years and nobody's ever reallycontradicted it until a couple
of weeks ago when somebody I wastalking to, who's also a
therapist said, actually, Ithink what the inner child needs
(34:54):
more than anything is to beloved.
And it pause, made me pause andthink about that because I've
always regarded the first andprimary need of the inner child
as to express the rage that hecouldn't or she couldn't express
in childhood because it's sodestructive to the system.
If you've got an inner child inyou who's angry and it bursts
(35:16):
out occasionally, road rage andall that stuff is about the
inner child.
Surely the best thing for theentire system is to get that out
of the body and lower that levelof anger until it's something
you can manage and holdcomfortably.
But then as I say, my colleaguessaid, no, I think the inner
(35:36):
child needs love more thananything.
It's really made me think if achild, if a man were to do.
Well, I don't know the answer tothat question because I've been
focusing a lot on anger work,both for myself, not so much
(35:59):
lately, but in the early days ofmy growth and for other people.
So I'm not, I'm not exactlydoubting that anger work is
necessary.
I'd say the moment I'm in aplace where I think.
The inner child inside us andyou and me and all of us needs a
lot of love and the ability toexpress what he or she couldn't
(36:22):
express in childhood.
And they're probably equallyimportant.
James (36:28):
Hmm.
Where could, with regards toworking through, People's
traumas, where can people startor where, where, where's the
best place to start?
Rod (36:40):
Yeah, great question and thanks for asking it.
Well, you won't be surprised tohear that since I've spent 16
years practicing shadow work,I'm going to tell you shadow
work is the best.
But you see, I, I mean, it'sreally interesting.
I think, Therapy in aconventional psychodynamic
session where you sit and talkto somebody for an hour can
(37:01):
produce a lot of emotion, and itcan go very deep, and it can
change things, but I, I alwaysfeel the healing there isn't so
much from the experience.
therapeutic conversation as fromthe relationship.
You know, it's like if a childdidn't have a house, I mean, you
(37:24):
wouldn't be in therapy, Iassume, if you had had adequate
relationships around you withpeople in childhood.
I mean, it's just common sense.
The biggest single factor inclassical therapy, determines
the outcome, the successfuloutcome of therapy is the
relationship.
It's been proven time and timeand time again, not the method
(37:45):
of therapy, but the relationshipbetween the practitioner and the
client.
So I imagine these two people ina room sitting talking and this
gives the client the opportunityto express what's never been
said and to find healing in therelationship.
And that's fabulous, but it canonly go so far.
This is why people in Jungiananalysis and Freudian analysis
(38:06):
spent 20 or 30 years.
Three times a week in theextreme form in analysis, as it
was called.
It's ridiculous.
It's like.
Something's missing here.
That is not how therapy shouldgo.
So shadow work gives people theopportunity not only to talk and
build a relationship with theirtherapist, facilitator,
(38:27):
practitioner, whatever you wantto call it.
But it also gives them theopportunity to act out scenarios
from the past in a way that thechild standing in the waste
paper basket as a nine year oldat primary school could go into
shadow work, and we would find away of setting something up that
resembled that situation, andthe child would then be able to
(38:50):
express whatever he couldn'texpress at the time, which would
generally be rage or angeragainst the teacher or his
teacher.
Whatever was necessary I had onechap who was in a similar, but
slightly different picture andwe were working on it.
And I said, well, now what needsto happen now?
He said, I need to lead theentire class.
(39:11):
In an attack on Mr.
Grimshaw, or whatever this guy'sname was.
And we need to throw all our,uh, sandwiches and drinks and
chalk and pens and papers at himuntil he's on the floor, and
then he has to crawl out of theroom.
So we had this set up andenacted it out.
And you know, what I call thisis, for the client, or for the
(39:33):
inner child within the client, Icall it, the necessary
completion of what couldn't becompleted when he was actually
in that situation.
Poetic justice, as you say,poetic justice.
And that's great.
And it makes massive changesbecause it gives people back the
(39:53):
power that they didn't have atthe time.
That's the key to that.
And then of course, there's thisquestion that we've been talking
about for a few minutes about,well, where does love come into
this?
How does love your inner child,soothe him, talk to him,
practice this every day and seewhat happens?
And gradually you build arelationship with him.
(40:15):
But a lot of people don't lovetheir inner child.
They look back on that childwith distaste, perhaps, or
hatred even.
And you'll hear them say thingslike, I was a right little sod.
And you're thinking, Oh, we'vegot something to work on here,
haven't we?
So if you're at war withyourself, I was a right little
sod.
What happens to the part of youthat still carries that
(40:38):
childhood energy when he hearsthe person he's become say that?
Do you know I was a right littlesod.
God, I deserve to be kicked bymy father because I was so
disobedient.
Now we really do have somethingto work on, don't we?
Get the idea?
Am I explaining this?
Yeah.
James (40:56):
For those who perhaps can't do shadow work or can't
get to somebody to do shadowwork, where can people start?
Rod (41:06):
Yeah, great idea.
Well, I started just by doinganger work on my own, because I
knew I carried a lot of anger.
And what did that look like?
Well, it looked like getting apunch bag and putting in the
garage and just whopping it whenI felt the tension building up.
Then just working through ittill I was kind of calm again.
That's great.
And it doesn't have to be apunch bag.
(41:27):
It can be a baseball bat on thebed, making sure nobody can hear
you.
If you're shouting at the sametime, particularly the neighbors
who might call the police orwhatever, but I'm serious about
that.
Self protection is important inall of this work.
So maybe for some people whodon't have that level of
privacy.
(41:49):
Go down the gym, do some punchbag work, do some lifting and
weights work, do some running,anything that will get it out of
the body.
That goes some of the way, but Ithink one key factor is what I
was just describing a moment agoin shadow work.
It needs to be directed againstthe original perpetrator.
So, if it's a punch bag thatyou're hitting, Then put
(42:12):
somebody's face on it.
Mr.
Grimshaw's, perhaps.
By the way, to all the teachersout there called Mr.
Grimshaw, it wasn't you, it wassomebody else.
James (42:24):
What kind of signs are there that we're actually
progressing in the rightdirection?
Oh,
Rod (42:29):
well, I think it becomes very clear.
There'll be those moments wherepeople just go, oh, what did I
just do?
Wow.
That's amazing.
I've never done that before.
Or a different sense of self,perhaps, you know, it's like,
Oh.
Okay, yeah, I can do that.
Or other people's feedback,actually.
(42:50):
Wow, you've really changed,James.
I remember when you were withCynthia 20 years ago.
My God, you were a bit of apatsy then, weren't you?
Now look at you, you're in agreat relationship.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah, yeah.
Disclaimer, James was not in a relationship with anyone
called Cynthia.
James (43:07):
Can you explain the four archetypes?
The king, the warrior, magicianand lover?
Rod (43:12):
Yeah, well, I certainly will.
It's a great model for thepersonality people have refined
it into 12 and 20 and heavenknows what, but fundamentally,
warrior, I'll give you anothername for each of them, by the
way, James, which might be moreto some people's taste, warrior,
action taker, goes out into theworld, gets things done, allows
(43:36):
you to know that you can have animpact on the world, that you
can change things, establishesboundaries, Hey, you, don't talk
to me like that.
It's not okay with me when yousay those things.
Physical boundaries, socialboundaries, emotional
boundaries.
Yeah?
So it's about action, assertion,and then of course that natural
(43:56):
reaction of anger when somebodydoes invade your boundaries in
some way.
That instant fight or flightresponse.
It's a part of us.
It can't be denied that an angrysurge in certain circumstances
is.
Is a part of who we are.
That leads us on neatly to theking, whose job is to control
the whole system, king or queen.
(44:17):
heart centered leader, perhaps,in the sense that we've seen
autocratic kings throughouthistory in Britain, and that's
not the model of kingship we'retalking about.
It's heart centered leadership,where your concern is for
everybody you're responsiblefor.
You care for them.
You don't quite regard them asequal necessarily, although in a
(44:37):
family relationship you probablywould, but somehow you're first
among equals.
That is a wonderful expression,first among equals.
So heart centered leadership,you care for people, you want
your, you want the best forthem, you look after them as
best you can, you give them theopportunity to grow as best they
can, you have wisdom,discernment, you can make a
(45:00):
judgment about what's needed andact on it or get your warrior
stroke action taker to act onit.
Imagine a mentor who was caringand metaphorically had a hand on
your shoulder as you weregrowing up.
That would be a good example ofa heart centered leader.
And of course, you know, in away every father or mother ought
(45:21):
to be a heart centered leader.
Because that's what theirchildren need from them.
Now, what else comes under theheart centered leader, stroke,
sovereign, stroke, king, stroke,queen's remit?
The magician, the thinker, the,the creative part that can
think, solve problems, come upwith solutions.
Also creative.
(45:43):
Delve into the unconscious.
There's a lot of magician workin the facilitation shadow work.
That's a kind of sense offalling on something deeper than
overt consciousness.
And people who take part inplant medicine ceremonies, they
shaman and facilitators in thosesituations will be using that
part of magician, but as also.
(46:05):
There's an, um, a particularenergy associated with each of
the archetypes with the warrior.
It's anger, which is aboutboundaries and defense With the
king, it's joy, which is aboutthe knowledge that you're good
enough.
With the magician, it's anxiety,and that's the early warning
system that something isn'tquite right.
Something needs to be looked at.
(46:25):
There's a problem in the kingdomof some sort, and the magician's
job is to go away and find asolution to that, to work things
out.
So if the poor child's standingin the waste paper basket as a
nine year old, I think hismagician is probably going to be
a bit crushed, because he's justbeing told basically, you're
stupid, you're a dunce, stand inthe corner, nobody wants to hear
(46:47):
what you've got to say, I'm notinterested as a teacher in you,
I just want to punish you.
So his magician will probably bebusy coming up with strategies
to stay safe in the world.
Well, actually, all ourmagicians were doing that when
we were children.
So, another word for themagician is transformer, in the
sense that it can take you fromone place to another.
(47:09):
And in the arena of personalgrowth, that's important,
because it's often the magicianwho finds the next step on the
path.
By the way, did you think aboutdoing that so and so course with
so and so James?
Did you think about doing thewhatever it is course?
And somehow the mysterious wayof the magician is to present
these things as coincidences orchance, or indeed in response to
(47:33):
research.
It doesn't have to be thatmystical.
That's weird.
I was just thinking about Fredand then he phoned me.
That's very magician y, isn'tit?
And then finally, the lover.
Yeah, exactly.
Lover.
That's the part of you that'sabout feeling and connection
with other people.
The way I like to, it's theprimal archetype, and therefore
(47:54):
I think probably the strongestin us.
And I always like to think of itas when a baby is born.
Is it received like this?
with a warm loving embrace, oris it received like that, or God
forbid is it received not atall, and it's rejected at birth.
Because those are the thingsthat will shape that part of it,
(48:15):
for a long time to come.
The sense of being held close tomother, On the breast, love,
being fed in that way is beingfed love, not just food.
The baby is secure.
And without that, which sadlyseems to be quite common these
days, although becoming less Ithink, as people wake up to the
(48:37):
idea that medical people don'tnecessarily know everything
about babies, and a mother'sinstinct is probably the best
thing for a baby, that'schanging.
But that desire for connectionis I think the primal drive
within all of us and continuesthroughout our lives as a very
powerful force, one way oranother, it's about connecting
(49:00):
with us, connecting with nature,connecting with the world around
us, connecting with purpose,meaning.
And of course, if you have allthese four archetypes working in
harmony, you've got a verybalanced and evolved human
being.
I've yet to meet one.
Like that, but you know, that'sprobably the field I work in.
James (49:21):
So how can we as human beings start to utilize these
four archetypes?
To start to become
Rod (49:29):
more, more balanced.
It's a great question.
And I think the answer is firstto gain an understanding of how
they operate and almost to seeyourself as made up of these
four motors or engines, if youlike, that each of which propels
you in a different function, adifferent way in the world,
Lover, connection, warrior,action taker, king, leadership
(49:54):
of self, it's not aboutleadership of others, it can be,
but it's about leadership ofself, and lover, connection,
magician, dealing with problemsand finding solutions.
Although it's shameless selfpublicity, I would say if this
is all a mystery to people atthis stage, then perhaps they
could read my first book, whichis a good introduction to the
(50:17):
archetypes.
Do have a copy there?
James (50:19):
I do
Rod (50:20):
have
James (50:20):
a copy.
Rod (50:20):
Fantastic, because I was just searching for the one
that's not on my desk.
James (50:24):
That one, that's the one inside.
Rod (50:25):
Warrior, magician, Lover, King.
A Guide to New Archetypes.
James (50:29):
I can actually vouch because I, I read the first one,
the original.
But I found it quite hardEnglish, and it's very much, it
explains the part, it doesn'tgive you any actionable steps,
whereas yours, your book is itallows you to see different
steps that you can take, whichis what we kind of need as human
(50:56):
beings.
It's great having this book ofdescribing the four archetypes,
but we need a kind of, we needa.
An idea of what to do.
Rod (51:06):
Absolutely, you're so right.
I admire Moore and Gillettebecause they were pioneers.
They were groundbreakingpioneers of male psychology.
And without them, who knowswhere we would be now?
I suppose you could say.
Somebody would have stepped inand done it.
But they laid the foundations.
But Robert Moore in particular,bless him.
(51:27):
He was a very intellectualcharacter.
I would say he was magician.
Mostly magician.
Although he was a very goodtherapist apparently.
But.
Anyway, I don't know him and Inever met him because he's no,
no longer with us,unfortunately, but I would say
on a judgment level that he wasprobably neck upwards, i.
e.
mostly in his head.
And I think the book reflectsthat.
(51:48):
It's quite intellectual.
Whereas my intention was to makeit practical and yes, I mean, I
acknowledge the debt that I oweand everybody in the field of
men's work.
And to that extent, women's workas well, because they're just
female versions of the samearchetypes.
Women tend to call the magicianpriestess, or sorceress, or
(52:11):
shaman, things like that.
But they're the same archetypes,they just manifest slightly
differently.
And I owe a great debt, as weall do in this field, to Moore
and Gillette.
And yet As you kindly observed,I think my book has a far more
actionable basis for people totake steps and we could talk for
hours about how people candevelop those archetypes, but I
(52:33):
guess the better option is justto say, if you have access to a
copy of the book.
Then, just get a copy and, I'dextend an offer to anybody who
really can't afford it,genuinely can't afford it.
If they send me through you,James, if it's okay, their name
and address, I'll send them acopy.
But that's really for people whogenuinely can't afford a copy,
(52:55):
to buy a copy.
I'd be happy to do that.
James (52:58):
Out of the four archetypes, which one is the
archetype that you see peoplehave the less or the people who
struggle to connect to theleast?
Rod (53:09):
It's a great question.
You see, Moore and Gillette,they wrote the book in 1992, I
believe.
They said that the lover was theweakest archetype in men.
I don't think that's true, and Idon't think it's true now.
I think there's no question theweakest archetype in the world,
in men and women, actually, isthe king or queen, the
sovereign.
(53:29):
You just look around the world.
I mean, it's, it's obvious thatthe decisions people are making
on a personal level are notsovereign decisions.
They are decisions coming fromquite wounded places.
You know, people who areobsessed with social media,
that's very magiciany.
People who are obsessed withbuying things through the
(53:51):
internet or Amazon, you know, Imean, these stories of people
who get five deliveries a day.
Well, It's convenient and it canserve a very good purpose, but
it's when it's taken to excessthat there's something really
wrong.
People who are doing that,they're probably looking for
some kind of reward, which isprobably a lover need.
(54:12):
People who are behaving got afew examples of that around the
world at the moment and it'sinflated, hugely pompous,
ridiculous, grandiose way.
And often in very damaging ways,they probably lack true
sovereignty.
And of course people who aredepressed probably lack true
warrior.
Because I regard not alldepression, let me quickly say,
(54:37):
certainly not all depression,some is medical.
But much depression is angerturned against the self.
And nobody people don'tunderstand this because you
can't feel that it's angerturned against the self, it's
unconscious.
But that's a lack of warriorhealthily displayed in the world
where that energy would gooutwards.
(54:57):
It's the king and queen.
Definitely.
Whatever Moore and Gillettethought back in the nineties, it
probably was for men to love it.
You know, big, tough, strong menkind of thing.
Then we had the people listeningto this might not be old enough
to remember, but we had a thingcalled the new man in the
nineties, which was farcicalbecause it, what it meant men
should be very soft and gentleand do the housework.
(55:19):
Not there's anything wrong withmen doing the housework, but as
part of this bigger picture ofthe new man, it was very
feminized.
And women.
Feminists in particular were,were adamant that this was the
way men had to go and lo andbehold, men went that way,
particularly in America, somemen, and guess what?
Women then discovered this wasnot what they wanted at all.
(55:40):
They wanted a strong man who wascompassionate, caring,
respectful and loving.
Those are the qualities womenalmost always in every survey
say they want in a man.
Somebody who's kind of feminizedand doing the housework or can't
assert himself or is passive orwhatever.
(56:01):
So anyway, I would say thearchetype most lacking now is
the king and queen, without adoubt.
Look at the way the world'sgoing.
James (56:08):
So what's the biggest challenges that we have?
If we want to bring out the kingand queen in modern society.
Rod (56:16):
Finding a reason to do it.
Purpose, to kind of, that'd bepurpose.
Absolutely, but something that'spersonally meaningful enough to
make you want to do it.
Now, why are people notmotivated like that?
Because they're surrounded byinfluences that hypnotize them,
(56:36):
you know, 27 streaming channelsfor the five quid a month or
whatever it is buying parcels onAmazon, social media in
particular engineered by socialscientists, behavioral
scientists of the utmost skillthat once you're in there, oh my
God, you're in and you're suckeddown a rabbit hole of whatever
it is, losing sight of your ownSense of control, actually.
(57:02):
And on and on it goes.
Endless news bulletins.
24 hour news channels.
What the hell is that about?
I mean, why would anybody wantto listen to a 24 hour news
channel every day about terrorsthat are happening on the other
side of the world they can donothing about, whilst they could
be doing positive small acts ofkindness in their own backyard
(57:22):
and really cheering people upand making their community a
wonderful place to be?
Fascinating, isn't it?
It's a negativity bias.
It's a negativity bias.
We're programmed to look for thenegative because that was where
danger lay.
Well, as we were evolving as aspecies, look for the danger
around, not for the positivethings.
You don't need to look forthose, because by definition
(57:44):
they are safe.
Look for the danger.
It's manifesting, I think, inall of the things I've just
described.
And really harming people'slives.
Individual capacity to takecharge of their own lives
because they're consumed withthis magician fear, if you like,
at some level of the world beinga terrible place and, oh, I
(58:07):
better stay behind my front doorbecause that's the only place
I'll be safe, or I betterconsole myself and look at
trivial things on Facebook andLinkedIn and all the rest of
them.
None of that is compatible withgoing out into the world with a
clear intention.
That fulfills you and gives youa sense of meaning and purpose.
(58:28):
It's, they are completelyincompatible pastimes.
To go out into the world with asense of meaning and purpose
requires autonomy.
individuality, focus, intention,followed by action, intelligent
thought, and probably in mostcases, loving connection with
(58:50):
other people.
None of which is compatible withwhat's being stuffed down
people's mouths and into theirbrains every day of the year.
And you can see it, peopleconsoling themselves with food
that is clearly not good forthem because it gives them their
inner lover, a sort of sense ofsomething.
food satisfaction peoplewatching Netflix because it
(59:13):
distracts them from what they'reworried about, etc, etc.
It goes on and on and on,
James (59:19):
so how can people really step up and what steps can we
start to take?
Rod (59:24):
Well, I think the first thing is, you need to start with
an intention.
That's where it all begins.
So, one of the things that Italk about in Finding the King
Within, is the need to focus onwhat it is that, I was going to
say what you're here to do, butthat's a bit grandiose, really.
(59:44):
So, what would give yousatisfaction and pleasure and
fulfill you if you were to finda way of doing it?
bringing that to the world.
It doesn't have to be anythinggrandiose.
Could be creating a beautifulgarden.
Could be forming a community gettogether once a week.
(01:00:04):
It's not about being a king on aroyal stage, ruling a country.
It's about being a leader inyour own life, in a way that
serves you and serves the peoplearound you.
So I'm not being specificbecause I don't think in this
situation I can be specific, butfinding a purpose that's
meaningful and then taking stepsto manifest it, it are really
(01:00:29):
two of the critical things andfinding the king within
shameless self publicity.
Well, I mean, it is a bitshameless, but on the other
hand, hopefully people who buythis would find something in it
that will inspire them to changehow they're living their lives,
(01:00:49):
because ultimately this is whatI wrote the book for.
And again, just to emphasize thepoint, this is not about making
some grandiose change and goingout into the world as a person
of great significance on a worldcountry stage.
This can start with yourself.
And your own way of being in theworld.
And by that, you can change thefamily environment and social
(01:01:12):
environment that you're in.
And beyond that, you can, if youwish to, you can change things
on a bigger scale.
So it's about intention followedby action and purpose and
meaning.
Something that's fulfilling on apersonal level, whatever that
happens to be.
James (01:01:33):
What is it that you can, you offer people?
Rod (01:01:37):
I was practicing shadow work in group settings.
I've stopped doing that now.
I've stopped at time of COVIDactually because obviously we
couldn't do the groups in COVIDand, haven't gone back to it
because I've been training otherpeople in that particular
skillset because, the legacy ofthe King is, you Got to be
(01:01:59):
something useful or it's notworth leaving behind and I'm
saying that with a smile on myface because as I was saying
that I was thinking of.
Victorian industrialists whobuilt these great monstrous
country houses and monuments totheir own grandiosity so that
when they died everybody wouldremember them.
it's like, we're not into that.
We're about passing something onto the next generation, whatever
(01:02:22):
that may be.
Kindness, love, intelligence,knowledge, wisdom.
So I think one of the thingsthat I'd regard as my legacy is
training other people.
It's become quite important.
It's become important to me.
And so shadow work groups run bythe people that I've trained and
(01:02:44):
there are other organizationsand they're very good too.
I'm not we're not an exclusive.
Healing the Shadow is ourorganization.
There are other people out therewho do the same thing.
So if somebody is interested inthis work, my encouragement
would be go to Find a groupworkshop, and if you like what
(01:03:08):
you experience there, which willbe very safely held, then you
can go further.
Or, if the idea of group workdoesn't appeal, then find an
individual one to onefacilitator.
And sure, the experience will bedifferent, but it can still be
(01:03:28):
just as powerful as the groupsetting.
And I know some people will findthe idea of working in a group a
bit scary, and that's quiteunderstandable.
So in both of the books, thereare resources that will help
people find The appropriate wayto practice shadow work, if
that's what they want to do.
(01:03:50):
And just to conclude, James,there are other ways too, that
are independent of groupfacilitation or one to one
facilitation.
And that's self facilitation.
Set the intention to go on ajourney of self discovery and
self development.
And what that might mean, forexample, is try many different
(01:04:11):
things.
Join an organization likeToastmasters and learn the art
of public speaking.
One of the biggest fears I'mabsolutely convinced is public
speaking.
It's extraordinary.
I mean, I can see why it's soscary, but when I think about it
as an abstract concept, it'slike, why would that terrify
(01:04:34):
people so much?
Being seen to not be goodenough, king wound, queen wound,
and by doing those things.
You can learn that you have morecapacity than you ever imagined
you would have.
Go to a night school class ifyou have one.
Pottery, if you don't fancysomething intellectual.
(01:04:54):
I suppose pottery is creativemore than intellectual, I don't
know.
Art, music, it's something moreintellectual.
Literature, study of literature.
But there are plenty of waysthat people can develop their
potential just by exploring whatthe world has to offer them in a
(01:05:15):
non therapeutic setting.
Join the local men's group,local men's shed and spend
Saturday morning with yourfellow men chatting about this,
that and mending toasters orwhatever it's doing for the
community.
That was actually one of theways that I started out.
I was doing therapy for sure.
But I thought I needed tochallenge myself on many
(01:05:37):
different levels.
And I took up parachuting,abseiling, and rock scrambling.
And although it would be hard toexplain just what effect they
did have on me, they certainlyhad an impact.
They ra Oh well actually, theyraised my courage.
They did indeed.
(01:05:57):
They raised my courage.
So that I could then do otherthings like start going to
public speaking with moreconfidence.
So everything that'sdevelopmental somehow meshes
together to kind of really growthe person who's, who's got a
motivation to grow.
That's, I think that what itcomes down to.
James (01:06:17):
Yeah, I can over the last, well, over my life, I've
done so many different things.
It just kind of links up.
And there's no particular onething which has helped me to
heal.
It's always been many, many,many different things.
Thank you very much, Rod.
It's been an absolute pleasurechatting to you.
Straight back at you.
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