In this powerful and soul-stirring episode of Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, mentor joins James and guide Sam Adams to explore the deeper journey of modern masculinity. Together, they dive into the transformative idea that our deepest wounds can become our greatest gifts — and how healing those wounds can help us find true purpose, strength, and connection.
This episode unpacks what it really means to be a healthy, grounded man in today’s disconnected world. Sam shares his personal story of growing up in the church, questioning inherited beliefs, and eventually walking a path of healing through nature, spirituality, rites of passage, and reclaiming both masculine and feminine energies.
🔑 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- Why your childhood wounds may hold the key to your purpose
- How modern men can break free from the “Nice Guy” syndrome
- The sacred role of authority, responsibility, and accountability in becoming a healthy man
- How ancestral healing and taking responsibility for the past help shape a better future
- The importance of embracing both masculine action and feminine surrender
- What it means to "die well" and how symbolic death allows for personal rebirth
- Why connection—with self, others, and nature—is the antidote to modern disconnection
- The powerful impact of men's retreats and rites of passage on identity and growth
This is a must-listen for men feeling lost, disconnected, or unsure of their place in the world. If you’re ready to reclaim your power and live with greater depth, presence, and meaning—this conversation is your next step.
🎧 Listen now and begin your journey from wound to wisdom.
About Sam:
Sam is a leader and guide in the modern men's movement, redefining what it means to be a man, through embracing both masculinity and femininity.
He leads personal development retreats in the UK and offers mentoring and coaching to men internationally. With a background as both corporate project manager and church pastor, Sam has navigated many evolutions and life changes, always finding that our wounds can become our greatest gifts.
Sam grew up in Zimbabwe and South Africa and from those years brings a sharp passion for creating systemic change, addressing the legacy of the colonial mindset and finding ways that we can all be free.
https://www.firstmen.co.uk
https://www.samueladams.co.uk
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In today's episode.
(00:02):
We talk about the currentchallenges.
Of modern man, including thenice guy syndrome.
How balancing actionandsurrender can be the key to your
growth and change.
We talk about the rights ofpassage.
And the purpose of men'sretreats.
Welcome to Man QuestifyingMeaning, where we help men
(00:24):
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
(00:46):
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (00:58):
I believe our wounds become our greatest gifts.
Can you explain a little bitmore?
Sam (01:06):
Yeah, I think the context in which we're born and the
childhood traumas that we all gothrough if healed.
Can become our greateststrengths, our greatest assets,
they can define our calling andthe purpose that we are on earth
(01:27):
for even to the point where wewould not be the best version of
ourselves if it was not forthose original childhood wounds.
James (01:39):
Yeah, I can I can agree with that a hundred percent.
I've interviewed Lawrence johnsfrom the MKP, and he was saying
that quite often it's thesewounds which give us the
purpose, which allow us todiscover these deep parts of
ourselves, and it's these deepparts of ourselves, these
wounds, which we can go out intothe world and teach others how
(02:03):
to overcome.
Sam (02:04):
Yeah, I think so, and make sure that we're not perpetuating
this cycle of trauma, but thatwe are here to pass on a better
world than the one we inherited.
James (02:15):
Yeah, I've got to have this kind of deep conversation,
especially internally about thepossibility of me having a child
and I've never really thoughtabout it.
But one thing that I realizedfrom having, from wanting a
child is that as a mentor, as aguide, it's the same as having a
(02:36):
child.
You want your child to be betterthan you are.
And so it's been able to teachwhether it's a child, whether
it's a client, whatever it is,it's about teaching them how to
overcome these deep wounds thatwe have.
Sam (02:50):
Yeah.
And I think there's somethingprimal, instinctively primal in
that desire you described there.
Because as you'll see, as ourconversation continues, the
primal, the instinct, the wildinternal nature part of
ourselves is a big part of meand what I, what makes me tick.
(03:10):
So yes, as a father of twochildren, I get that, that deep
rooted primal desire that theywould have a better life than I
ever had.
I've heard my father saysomething similar.
And I believe.
That's the attitude that a goodparent should and will have.
James (03:30):
Yeah, so it's almost like from my own deep perspective,
it's like leaving yourself,leaving a legacy.
But then, your child then,taking that legacy to another
level, so it's build upon build.
Sam (03:46):
Let's talk about Ancestors, I know we're recording on this
week of Halloween, Samhain,which they say is the time of
the veil is thin between thisworld and the world of the dead.
So if we're talking about legacyand by the same token, we're
looking backwards at ourancestral inheritance.
We are the victory cry of a longline of survivors who've got
(04:12):
through plagues and war andfamine and hardship and
migrations and awful things andbeautiful things and that
mixture of life and survival sothat you and I can be here now
today.
and then projecting thatonwards.
Yeah.
I am my child's ancestor.
So let them stand on myshoulders as I stand on the
(04:34):
shoulder of my ancestors.
Some people call our children,the future ancestors.
So yeah let's enjoy this time ofthe year where we can imagine
and dream into those spaces ofbeyond time.
James (04:47):
It's the conversation that we had before this podcast
was done is that we talked aboutancestors and how perhaps our
ancestors didn't do very nicethings.
And obviously it's coming.
It's big news at this moment intime is that certain people in
certain countries want people inUnited Kingdom to apologize for
(05:10):
what happened perhaps a hundred,200 years ago, but again, it's.
It's, I feel as though, from myown perspective here, if I was
going to be a bit ephemerable,is that we can't say sorry for
what our ancestors did.
What we can do is we can takethe lessons learnt from our
(05:32):
ancestors and incorporate themin today.
What are your thoughts on that?
Sam (05:40):
I might disagree with you.
You say we can't say sorry forthe sins of our ancestors.
Why not?
And what do we mean by sayingsorry?
What does sorry actually mean?
Because there's different nuancein that word.
It's a big word, right?
So I grew up in Africa wheresorry would be used beautifully.
(06:00):
I really liked it.
It irked me at first, to behonest.
But if I stubbed my toe on myown volition by accident, a
complete stranger who witnessedthat would say, Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm so sorry that you stubbedyour toe.
Like you have my sympathy, mycompassion.
You have my acknowledgement ofthe pain you're going through.
(06:21):
So yeah, for the colonists andthe slave trading oppressor
within my lineage, yeah, I willhave compassion on people of
color and those enslaved andoppressed by my ancestors.
I will certainly use sorry inthat way, but I think it goes
beyond that.
Because a key word in my workwith men is responsibility.
(06:46):
How do we take responsibilityfor the actions that those in my
line have caused?
And me as the fruit of theirlabors and their survival, a
beneficiary certainly as a whiteman, the white privilege
inherent in my skin color and myethnic origin.
Yeah, my sorry goes beyondcompassion.
(07:08):
It goes to how can I listen?
How can I appreciate your sideof the story?
Because it's not being theprimary narrative.
So let me first come with myears.
Before I say, sorry, and thenlet me think, how can I use my
embodied privilege to activelysay, sorry, actively repent.
(07:28):
Repentance means to turn 180degrees.
It's really means rotation.
So how can I rotate my decisionsand take responsibility by the
banking I choose the food lines.
I choose the way I participatein the political economy,
knowing that my father'sforefathers have sinned.
James (07:48):
I can like, okay.
Yeah, I can understand that alittle bit more now, but it's
more, I think it's what'shappened in the past.
Yes, is the idea of havingcompassion and showing love
towards those who may havesuffered.
But yeah, as you said, it's thentaking the responsibility of
(08:11):
our, for ourselves, how can wenow create a better world?
How can we now really allow usto step forward and really take
the bull by the horns and reallyaction.
Steps to create more of aconnection with the earth,
(08:32):
create more of a connection withpeople from all around the
globe, because imagine, imaginea world where there's no
boundaries or borders and we'reall one, which we all are.
But imagine if we were allphysically able to get along,
how will the world be adifferent place?
Sam (08:51):
So I hear your emphasis on forward looking.
And creating that beautifulvision of oneness, yes I'm with
you in that vision and to getthere requires certain steps, I
believe, and while dwelling onthe past might be a place we
could get stuck.
(09:12):
It shouldn't be ignored.
That if I am to make a betterworld, one of equality and the
circle and oneness, we're notall starting from the same
point.
So there's a missing piece thatrequires looking backwards to
redeem, reconcile, repent, suchthat we can all start with
something that looks a bit morelike parity, because at the
(09:34):
moment there are differentpeople, different nations,
races, creeds, that are not onpar, that is not equity.
So I need us an invite are themen I work with to look back to
take responsibility so that wecan get to more of an equal
playing field now so that we canthen move forward and create the
world we dream of.
James (09:54):
Nice.
So how did you get to thisplace?
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself?
Sam (09:59):
Yeah, I was a wounded man.
I am a wounded man.
So how did I get here?
Through leaning into the wounds,not suppressing them with
medication, distraction,addictions, avoidance.
I'm sure I did all of that to acertain extent, but I really
discovered the importance oftherapy, of healing, of
(10:23):
embracing the shadows, lookinginwards.
Yeah, I think a big part of mypast, James, you might not know
this, is I grew up in the churchand while much of Christianity
speaks of healing andliberation, I think it's stuck
in a way, an old system way thatis very hierarchical and
controlled and rigid.
(10:45):
So part of my story was leavingthe church and expanding my
theology to embrace a biggerpicture and more of a.
liberated understanding of God,of spirit, of healing, of being
human.
So yeah, how did I get there?
That was a big part of it.
(11:06):
I've always been intospirituality and I think it's
constantly expanded.
I didn't throw the baby out withthe bath water when I left the
church.
Yeah.
And another theme alongsidespirit is my connection with
earth.
And the mother within a big partof why I criticize Christianity
is because it's oppressed thefeminine and it has rejected the
(11:29):
idea of a goddess, certainly inProtestantism where Mary as the
mother of Jesus isn't seen asfeminine.
a divine or held in high esteemlike the Catholics do.
So I found that in NatureConnection and coming to the
mother, coming to the feminine,coming to the mystery and the
(11:49):
flow and the yin energy in Gaia,in the trees and the plants and
the animals and the seasons.
So as I have rewilded myself, Ihave embraced my own femininity.
and learn to dance, learn toflow, learn to surrender.
My yin is now there, whereasbefore it was absent,
(12:10):
suppressed.
James (12:13):
How did the church really impact you with regards to your
beliefs?
Your limitations.
Sam (12:20):
Yeah, it's a mixed bag.
It impacts me for good and forbad.
And there's lots I am gratefulfor.
I say this regularly, that thechurch taught me the value of
prayer, of community, ofstudying scripture, of singing
together, of retreats andmeditation, food and sacred
meals, bringing the sacred intothe everyday.
(12:42):
Limitations, though, I think thetheology was narrow and the
interpretation of wonderfulscriptures, poetry and wisdom
writings was through a verynarrow lens and perhaps the
original writers got it wrong orI'd like to think that maybe
those who interpreted it,interpreted the original Hebrew
(13:04):
and other languages had theirown agendas or their own
limitations.
So there's a mixed bag thereJames and the baggage there of
what I've said before ofignoring my femininity.
not being trauma informed, notunderstanding the nuance of
psychology, not understandingthe great mystery.
(13:26):
That sounds like a paradox,understanding the mystery, but
giving space for mystery.
Ironically, because the churchis meant to be a faith
institution, but the church Iwas in was so definite.
So it's called Calvinist.
So, certain on the exegesis ofscriptures, there was no space
for a maybe.
And.
I love maybe I think maybe is aword of revolutions challenges
(13:51):
the certainty of Christianity,colonialism and capitalism, this
unholy Trinity, which is so fullof certainty.
No, this can't always becertain.
There's always a maybe.
And that's so liberating, eventhough it might also be scary.
James (14:08):
For me rather than using the word, maybe I'd use the word
curious and curiosity has beensomething that I've always had.
And so I was brought, I had togo to, as a child, I had to go
to church, and I suppose in somerespect, that's almost made me
resist the church, because Ialways had to, I had to go, and
(14:32):
for years, using the word God,Has really tainted the word for
me because it's almost forcedupon you and I'm not saying all
religions, but there's quite alot of religions that look for,
as they call it, God.
I would now see the word God assomething rather than male,
(14:56):
whether than or female, it'ssomething.
So it's unknown.
But is the idea that.
It all looks on the outside, soyou're always searching for that
thing, or God up in the sky willgive you finances, or will give
you that house, give you agirlfriend, or whatever you
(15:17):
want.
For me, it's that search inside.
God, for me, comes from theinside, which then obviously
brings back the power to myself.
And so now I can change my life.
I haven't got to have a churchchange my life, or whatever it
is.
Sam (15:37):
Said.
And actually, that's what Jesusteaches.
He said, God is within me.
And so he will be for you.
If you follow these teachings,you will learn that God can be
within you.
So that's the internal you talkabout.
Another word other than maybeand curiosity is both.
(15:57):
What if God is within andwithout?
And these are big terms and wejust don't know the answer.
What is it?
What's truth?
And that's what I'm saying.
There's a lot of maybes here.
A lot of, let's just imagineit's beautiful to wonder what
are the answer to life'smysteries and will we ever know?
I don't need to know for sure,but I like to work with things
like metaphor, mythology andarchetypes.
(16:20):
So for me, God, as a fatherpresence in the sky.
Is an archetype, a role modelfor me as a father, a role model
for me as a man to aspire to belike the son.
a place of consistency, order,the heat and warmth and nurture
of that sun, that fire energythat rains down, that is able to
(16:45):
bring holding and growth andorder and certainty and maybe by
extension the stars as they areall various forms of the, of
suns.
So navigation and clarity,that's all yang energy, that's
my archetype, the goddess.
It's something different.
That's maybe the moon.
That's the changeability.
(17:05):
That's the flow.
That's what wasn't in my form ofChristianity.
It's what I'm learning andwanting to learn more about is
how do I be more like the moonand surrender and trust and flow
and be reflective of the sun'slight.
Then there's something beyondall of that, which you might
call spirit, consciousness,prana, chi, and oneness.
(17:27):
And, We've just got these littlewords that try to help us
understand something on nonunderstandable.
James (17:37):
I last Wednesday I had a coaching session and we were
talking.
So we started to work on thesacred connection.
And she asked me the question,what does love mean to you?
And it sent you down thismassive rabbit hole.
It got to the point where itjust opened up completely.
(18:00):
And there's this idea that whenyou explore a term or a word,
and you get to that vast space,that kind of vast space, and you
literally are just coming upwith these terms, these ideas,
which you never even thoughtwere there, you know that you've
(18:21):
gone beyond yourself.
With regards to that termwhatever it is, and is the idea
that we are never going to beable to know this a hundred
percent, but it's that trust isthat knowing that kind of
surrender that, okay, that iswhere this word is going.
So the idea of love is this deepconnection within this vast
(18:47):
space of masculine and feminine,and this idea that.
There is no masculine.
There is no feminine.
It just is
Sam (18:59):
yeah.
I like to think that these areall maps, masculine, feminine,
or yin and yang are maps.
And like all maps, they arelimited.
They are representations oftruth, and it depends where you
are around a road, how that roadlooks.
(19:20):
But if you open your map app onyour phone, it's only gonna look
one way.
So That tree I'm looking atoutside the window isn't on
Google Maps.
All maps are limited, butthey're useful and they help us
when we get lost because theycut away some of the confusion
and the mystery and help us tomove forward.
So I'm a big map lover.
James (19:43):
Give us a direction.
Sam (19:45):
Yeah.
James (19:46):
And then we know which way to start going.
When you left the church, howdid you start to realize your
limiting beliefs and work withyour wounds?
Sam (19:59):
It's been an iterative journey.
It's been one of constantlyseeking.
And when I say seeking, it'slike seeking peace in an
embodied way, not feelingsomething's right.
Maybe I didn't have the languagefor it.
So I left this massive church,thousand people, and then found
(20:19):
a little church for 200 people.
And it felt a bit better in mybody.
But after a few years there, itwas still too much compromise.
So then I started a church in myhouse and we met.
On the couches and sitting andjust talking, sitting in circle
and praying and singing andlearning and connecting.
It was better.
(20:40):
And then eventually, I wasliving in Africa at the time,
moved back here and discoveredForest Church.
So we'd meet outside, we'd havefires and marshmallows and learn
to sing with the birds and prayin a seasonal liturgy, which was
lovely, it was better.
Each moment of pushing theboundary helped me connect more
with what felt right in my bodyand my heart and what felt more,
(21:08):
where I felt more access, whereI felt more access to God.
The obstacle was gone.
Each time I left one behind, itwas about dying.
Part of that had to die.
It was an obstacle to connectwith God, with myself, with my
power, with what I believe isour calling as humans.
And I believe the theology ofmuch of the church gets in the
(21:32):
way of connecting with God,ironically.
James (21:37):
Was, do you have any like a set method or anything that
you particularly did to workwith these wounds?
Sam (21:43):
I've tried lots of things.
I think one of my passions isjust, or idiosyncrasies, is just
diversity and trying differentthings.
So yeah, I have tried lots,James.
I've explored Islam.
I've explored Easterntheologies, Taoism and Tantra,
and I've explored consciousdancing and naturopathy and
(22:06):
nutrition and differentpolitical economic systems.
So I feel like once.
someone is questioning amainstream narrative, it just
snowballs.
So I was questioning mainstreamChristianity and what I'd grown
up with.
And then suddenly it wasquestioning other things.
How do we live as community?
How a family set up?
(22:26):
How do we manage our financesand our investments?
How can I be a man of integrityacross the board?
So there's not one answer toyour question, rather the
opposite that it involved liftturning the stones in every area
of my life.
James (22:41):
I suppose it's the awareness.
As soon as you have thatcuriosity and that sense of
awareness into whatever you'relooking at and you open it up
Because they say it 90 percentto your transformations
awareness the 10 percent is thenthe action
Sam (23:02):
Yeah other thing that comes up James is a big part of the
journey I think of healing isknowing who one is And in each
moment of death of transition,it's been shedding a skin and
getting more clear on myidentity so that I can now
really emphatically affirmmyself with something like a
(23:23):
mantra I know who I am.
I am this and this.
And that little prayer, thatpoem that I have, that is Stuck
onto my mirror is the result ofthese last 15, 20 years of
unpicking all the stuff from the2030 years before that.
Oh, it's a mixture actually.
(23:43):
Some of it is, yeah, my name isthis, it means this in Hebrew.
I am the son of Morris and he isthe son of Cyril.
I am the father of these twochildren.
And it's like coming home toself and having this,
Affirmation that I can speakover myself whenever I'm feeling
a bit shaky and all of that, allof those words are a powerful
(24:08):
spell to, to be the greatestversion of myself.
And it's the result of a lot ofsoul searching.
James (24:16):
So there's some, there's somebody who's listened to the
podcast who perhaps doesn't knowwhere they are or who they are.
What would you suggest or wherecould they start?
Sam (24:29):
Yeah.
Conversations need to be had.
If all of this is new to you asa listener, then follow this
thread, come talk to me, talk toJames, talk to other people who
are doing this type of work,where we engaging in these
topics and bring what we callthis consciousness to identity
(24:51):
and psychology and yeah, what itmeans to be human.
Yeah that's the, that's where Istarted James, just sitting in a
circle of men in a forest aboutseven or eight years ago.
And that changed my life.
I think doing some rites ofpassage is important as well.
So my expertise and.
(25:11):
Passion, compassion is for men.
And I think we have an endemicproblem that men do not know who
they are.
So we're talking on identityissues here and men have a
collective wound from ourforefathers who got hurt by the
system as well as women.
So there's a sense of insecurityor shame about being a man.
(25:34):
It's wrong to be masculine.
It's wrong to be chivalrous.
It's wrong to open the door.
It's wrong to be assertive.
It's wrong to be a provider orprotector.
And it's all in the same mix,the same toxic cocktail of
confusion.
How do I be a man when my body'stelling me this, but I'm hearing
(25:55):
these feminist narratives andthis accurate, shameful
inheritance from men who havecrossed the line and being
misogynistic, et cetera.
So then what has happened andwhy I say it's endemic is so
many men have pendulum swung andbecome these flaccid, nice guys.
I was the flaccid, nice guy forso long, but yes, man, just
(26:16):
peacekeeper avoiding conflictbeing a nice lad.
The nice boy, dare I say.
So what can someone do islistening is do a rite of
passage where you can let go ofthe old skin, the thing that no
longer serves.
Change the narrative.
The nice guy must die orintegrate and then embrace
(26:40):
healthy adult maleness.
And that's going to lookdifferent for everyone, but
there are some cues or maps thatwe can find through these rites
of passage.
James (26:49):
That would lead us quite nicely, actually.
What do you define as a healthyman?
Sam (26:56):
So what does it mean to be a healthy male?
There's not one answer to beinga healthy male.
And there's permission to bewhoever you are as a man.
At the same time, I thinkthere's some key fundamental
aspects that are primal andinstinctual about being a male.
And I might start with ouranatomy, that because of our
(27:19):
genitalia, we carry certainmetaphorical energetic powers.
Responsibilities, privileges,certainly differences to the
female anatomy.
Now I'm sensitive and cautiousabout this topic because it's
vulnerable talking aboutsexuality.
(27:40):
And in our current context ofgender fluidity and the trans
movement, I have.
Great sensitivity and humilityaround this topic at the same
time, working with cis men, Iunderstand that between our
legs, we carry seeds.
(28:02):
The semen is Latin for seeds.
We carry seeds by extension.
The words we speak are seeds.
The presence of a male bodyentering a room has a different
texture to the presence of afemale body or a feminine,
rather feminine body enteringthe room.
So it's clunky language becausemasculine overlaps with
(28:26):
maleness.
Sometimes it doesn't, sometimesmore so than others.
So as a masculine male, I entera room knowing that my presence,
my vibration, the base of myvoice, the seeds in my balls
carry authority.
I can author the space.
I can create a child.
I've created two children.
(28:47):
That is a huge privilege, a hugeresponsibility and a huge power.
So I think a healthy maleunderstands his power as a seed
carrier.
The other.
aspect of being male is ourcock, that there is a
penetrative facility, topenetrate a organ, to penetrate
(29:09):
the space.
So along with that authority isthis ability to penetrate the
space as a male bodied human.
So a healthy male understandsthat as well.
He carries the seeds.
He understands that he canpenetrate the space.
And whether that is how heconducts his business, how he
speaks to his children, how heposts on social media, how he
(29:30):
generates money, he's authoringthe space.
He uses his authority because heknows that is a primal anatomy.
Alongside authority comesresponsibility.
So he takes responsibility forhis children, a social media
post or anything he's authored,he's a responsible man.
And the third keyword we use inmy work is accountable.
(29:54):
Once he's authored the seeds, hehas a clear account of his
motivation.
and his willingness to takeresponsibility for the
consequence of his seeds.
So I'd like to work with thosethree words and I honor my
father actually who taught methat and authority,
(30:14):
responsibility andaccountability are three of the
answers I might have to thatquestion.
What does it mean to be ahealthy adult male?
Can
James (30:24):
you say them three words again please?
Sam (30:27):
Authority, responsibility and accountability.
James (30:32):
I think, from my own perspective, I was what you
called a Mr.
Nice Guy, kind of thing, andthere was a point in my life
where I would avoid a fight atall costs.
Even when she was having a a goat me, there was this idea that
I would get anxiety, I would getfear.
(30:54):
But I've come to learn that,It's for me, it's about, it's
the seed of my responsibility toput my own boundaries in place
to, to really have thatauthority over what I do and
create an impact in the way thatI'm creating good.
I'm creating a world which growsrather than declines.
(31:17):
And it's an idea from a man'sperspective that we have all
this power yet.
understanding and takingresponsibility that we don't, we
might not have to use all thatpower.
We have it, but we don't have touse it.
Sam (31:36):
Absolutely.
I think that's a big part ofbeing a healthy male is knowing
the power and discerning when touse it.
Healthy man also embraces hisfemininity.
So the time when he doesn't usehis seeds, where he chooses to
be quiet, he chooses to be insurrender and with the mystery
chooses to flow and trust orsubmit and that is of equal
(32:05):
value and perhaps morerevolutionary for a man to own
his femininity and know whenthat's appropriate.
So big part of adulting for menand women is just discerning
what energy to express in thatmoment.
James (32:19):
Yeah.
It's a big one that with amasculine feminine, you've got
the masculine, which is quiteoften, especially the warrior to
do with action, but then youbring it in utilizing the
feminine, the surrender, Sotaking the action, but then
allowing it to happen,surrendering it, allowing it to
be, see what happens.
(32:40):
And then if it, if somethinghappens again, action,
surrender, action, surrender.
They're almost in line with eachother.
Sam (32:48):
Yeah.
That's the dance of life andboth are so important.
Beautiful dance.
James (32:55):
Yeah.
So I did I remember, I think itwas a couple of years ago, I did
one of your retreats, the firstmen retreats.
Sam (33:05):
Yes.
James (33:06):
Can you explain the concept, because I found it
quite eye opening and veryhelpful from a men's
perspective.
How does the retreat, what kindof areas do you cover and how do
these areas help men to grow?
Sam (33:24):
There's a lot of answers to that.
What comes up first is that ourmain disease in Western society,
maybe beyond, certainly for men,Is disconnection that we are
suspicious of each other, thatthe capitalist motivation of
(33:48):
competition has become insidiousin being human.
So compete, and that has causeddisconnection.
The modern economy thrives ondisconnection.
So do you have the energy toborrow your neighbor's
lawnmower?
No, I don't really know themthat well.
Oh, let's just go to Homebaseand get another lawnmower.
(34:09):
Great for Homebase.
But rubbish for connection withthe neighbor.
He could have had a cup of tea.
Maybe they'd baked a cake.
It could have been a beautifulmoment to borrow a lawnmower.
So this disease is a problem.
Disconnection, mistrust,competition.
So on a first men retreat, likemany other retreats and men's
(34:31):
spaces, the medicine instantlyis connection and breaking down
the barriers of this connection,realizing that we have more in
common than we do.
That separates us.
So we create spaces for men toconnect with each other and
(34:54):
talk, listen, move, fight.
We do a bit of martial arts,just embodied practices.
If we're not fighting, thenmaybe it's just laughing or
drumming and playing music,lighting a fire, chopping wood.
It's very primal, very physical,very adventurous and fun.
And I'll keep going.
(35:15):
James, the, this connection iswith self as well.
So our space createsopportunities for men to slow
down and connect withthemselves.
And maybe that's really rare forthe man that he doesn't know
himself.
So we offer these milestones ona map of meanings.
(35:35):
So he can say, ah, that's, thathelps me understand myself
better.
And there's a two way processhere.
Cause he understands himselfbetter and connects with himself
often in the mirror.
Of another man sharing.
So when John shares about somechallenges with his marriage,
(35:55):
then Peter can understand hismarriage a bit better.
And in the third area, which isa big one for us, and we
particularly cherish andchampion is connection with the
mother, with Gaia, withcreation.
So inviting men, not just toconnect inwards, not just to
(36:16):
connect with the circle of men,but then to connect beyond.
To the trees, the plants, theseasons, our workshops and
events are always seasonallyinformed.
So our winter retreat, forexample, is called The Cave, and
it's subtitled HibernationWithout Isolation.
(36:36):
It's about slowing down.
It's about unpacking what doesit mean to be alone, to be
depressed, to be Decomposinglike in winter.
So connecting with the riversand the streams, the mountains
and the elements with earth,air, fire, and water.
Yeah.
We love to do that in a reallyfun, playful, but deep,
(36:59):
meaningful way.
James (37:01):
So one thing I love to do is a Ecstatic dance and I went
this Sunday.
And one thing that I got fromthat was that I felt very
disconnected.
And through exploring this alittle bit more over the last
couple of days, I've come torealize that quite often.
(37:22):
But from my own perspective andwhat I realize is that when we
feel disconnected from people,quite often it's because I feel
it's disconnected from yourself.
So when I connect back to myselfand are able to really connect
to my soul, connecting toothers.
(37:44):
Almost becomes easy because I'malready connected.
This is the idea that if youconnect to yourself, you connect
to the whole.
Sam (37:54):
Love it.
Yeah.
I believe in that.
And I don't think it's linear.
I think there's times where needothers to help us connect to
ourselves.
James (38:03):
Could you, I haven't talked about it very much.
Can we look a bit deeper intothe feminine and how do you
connect to the feminine and whatis the feminine energy?
Sam (38:13):
Feminine energy.
Is a pole on this map, a poleaway from that masculine
extreme, she knows how tosurrender, to trust, she's
comfortable with mystery and theunknown.
(38:34):
For me, she represents thecircle and cycles, understanding
the cyclical nature.
Of life.
It's hard to define this one.
I think it's harder to definefeminine than masculine.
And that's part of thedefinition is that it's hard to
define because the feminine ismysterious.
How can I put a mystery in a boxand give you a few bullet points
(38:56):
in this answer?
Obviously I can't, that would bea paradox.
So those are some thoughts onthe feminine.
I think in the cycle, key partthat's missing in the masculine
capitalist system is death.
And for me, the femininerepresents the essential nature
of regularly dying.
(39:18):
And because life is soobsessively focused on or growth
rather in the capitalisttemplate, we've forgotten how to
die.
So part of this femininefeminist revolution that I'm
part of is about learning todie.
Very well.
How do we surrender?
How do we die?
(39:38):
How do we embrace winter as theseason of slowing down of not
being productive or beingproductive in a different way?
Yeah,
James (39:51):
just to the people out there.
Can you just clarify what youmean by die?
Sam (39:55):
It metaphorically, allowing part of self that no longer
serves to Have a rest.
Yeah.
Yes.
So
there are parts of our psyche that formed in response
to triggers and traumas and wecan give thanks for them, but
there comes a time when they nolonger serve.
(40:16):
So let that part die.
Like a snake sheds its skin,like the leaves fall off the
trees as we get to winter, ah,it's gone.
I can let that part of my soulgo to bed or have a different
function.
It's not.
Running the show anymore.
Great, energetic, symbolic deathand in its place can come new
(40:40):
life like the phoenix on yourwall behind.
I think that's a great symbolfor the reincarnation that can
happen for us as humans.
James (40:51):
It's the rise of the new version of ourselves.
Yeah.
Can you tell us what do youoffer?
what do you do and what kind ofthings do you offer?
Sam (41:01):
Thank you.
Yes, I love working with men andI also work with women and the
focus is on understanding andliberating the masculine within.
So for the woman I work with,it's often about them embracing
their own masculinity and to getthere, they might need to heal
(41:23):
some wounds from father figuresor men in their past so that
they can then hold theboundaries themselves and have
that sense of order anddiscipline rather than
outsourcing it.
For the men who's mainly I workwith, it's about identity
formation and standing inconfidence and the redeeming.
(41:46):
The understanding of what itmeans to be a man working
through that shame we touched onearlier.
So I work one on one with thesepeople.
And then first men is myorganization with my team that
supports men to go on thesejourneys, these rites of
passages, these adventures,these camping trips, and we meet
regularly online and in person.
(42:07):
Throughout the year, we'veworked and met hundreds of men
over the last couple of years ofrunning this.
And I wouldn't.
Be doing anything else.
James (42:18):
Thank you very much, Sam.
Sam (42:20):
You are welcome.
In today's episode.
(00:02):
We talk about the currentchallenges.
Of modern man, including thenice guy syndrome.
How balancing actionandsurrender can be the key to your
growth and change.
We talk about the rights ofpassage.
And the purpose of men'sretreats.
Welcome to Man QuestifyingMeaning, where we help men
(00:24):
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
(00:46):
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (00:58):
I believe our wounds become our greatest gifts.
Can you explain a little bitmore?
Sam (01:06):
Yeah, I think the context in which we're born and the
childhood traumas that we all gothrough if healed.
Can become our greateststrengths, our greatest assets,
they can define our calling andthe purpose that we are on earth
(01:27):
for even to the point where wewould not be the best version of
ourselves if it was not forthose original childhood wounds.
James (01:39):
Yeah, I can I can agree with that a hundred percent.
I've interviewed Lawrence johnsfrom the MKP, and he was saying
that quite often it's thesewounds which give us the
purpose, which allow us todiscover these deep parts of
ourselves, and it's these deepparts of ourselves, these
wounds, which we can go out intothe world and teach others how
(02:03):
to overcome.
Sam (02:04):
Yeah, I think so, and make sure that we're not perpetuating
this cycle of trauma, but thatwe are here to pass on a better
world than the one we inherited.
James (02:15):
Yeah, I've got to have this kind of deep conversation,
especially internally about thepossibility of me having a child
and I've never really thoughtabout it.
But one thing that I realizedfrom having, from wanting a
child is that as a mentor, as aguide, it's the same as having a
(02:36):
child.
You want your child to be betterthan you are.
And so it's been able to teachwhether it's a child, whether
it's a client, whatever it is,it's about teaching them how to
overcome these deep wounds thatwe have.
Sam (02:50):
Yeah.
And I think there's somethingprimal, instinctively primal in
that desire you described there.
Because as you'll see, as ourconversation continues, the
primal, the instinct, the wildinternal nature part of
ourselves is a big part of meand what I, what makes me tick.
(03:10):
So yes, as a father of twochildren, I get that, that deep
rooted primal desire that theywould have a better life than I
ever had.
I've heard my father saysomething similar.
And I believe.
That's the attitude that a goodparent should and will have.
James (03:30):
Yeah, so it's almost like from my own deep perspective,
it's like leaving yourself,leaving a legacy.
But then, your child then,taking that legacy to another
level, so it's build upon build.
Sam (03:46):
Let's talk about Ancestors, I know we're recording on this
week of Halloween, Samhain,which they say is the time of
the veil is thin between thisworld and the world of the dead.
So if we're talking about legacyand by the same token, we're
looking backwards at ourancestral inheritance.
We are the victory cry of a longline of survivors who've got
(04:12):
through plagues and war andfamine and hardship and
migrations and awful things andbeautiful things and that
mixture of life and survival sothat you and I can be here now
today.
and then projecting thatonwards.
Yeah.
I am my child's ancestor.
So let them stand on myshoulders as I stand on the
(04:34):
shoulder of my ancestors.
Some people call our children,the future ancestors.
So yeah let's enjoy this time ofthe year where we can imagine
and dream into those spaces ofbeyond time.
James (04:47):
It's the conversation that we had before this podcast
was done is that we talked aboutancestors and how perhaps our
ancestors didn't do very nicethings.
And obviously it's coming.
It's big news at this moment intime is that certain people in
certain countries want people inUnited Kingdom to apologize for
(05:10):
what happened perhaps a hundred,200 years ago, but again, it's.
It's, I feel as though, from myown perspective here, if I was
going to be a bit ephemerable,is that we can't say sorry for
what our ancestors did.
What we can do is we can takethe lessons learnt from our
(05:32):
ancestors and incorporate themin today.
What are your thoughts on that?
Sam (05:40):
I might disagree with you.
You say we can't say sorry forthe sins of our ancestors.
Why not?
And what do we mean by sayingsorry?
What does sorry actually mean?
Because there's different nuancein that word.
It's a big word, right?
So I grew up in Africa wheresorry would be used beautifully.
(06:00):
I really liked it.
It irked me at first, to behonest.
But if I stubbed my toe on myown volition by accident, a
complete stranger who witnessedthat would say, Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm so sorry that you stubbedyour toe.
Like you have my sympathy, mycompassion.
You have my acknowledgement ofthe pain you're going through.
(06:21):
So yeah, for the colonists andthe slave trading oppressor
within my lineage, yeah, I willhave compassion on people of
color and those enslaved andoppressed by my ancestors.
I will certainly use sorry inthat way, but I think it goes
beyond that.
Because a key word in my workwith men is responsibility.
(06:46):
How do we take responsibilityfor the actions that those in my
line have caused?
And me as the fruit of theirlabors and their survival, a
beneficiary certainly as a whiteman, the white privilege
inherent in my skin color and myethnic origin.
Yeah, my sorry goes beyondcompassion.
(07:08):
It goes to how can I listen?
How can I appreciate your sideof the story?
Because it's not being theprimary narrative.
So let me first come with myears.
Before I say, sorry, and thenlet me think, how can I use my
embodied privilege to activelysay, sorry, actively repent.
(07:28):
Repentance means to turn 180degrees.
It's really means rotation.
So how can I rotate my decisionsand take responsibility by the
banking I choose the food lines.
I choose the way I participatein the political economy,
knowing that my father'sforefathers have sinned.
James (07:48):
I can like, okay.
Yeah, I can understand that alittle bit more now, but it's
more, I think it's what'shappened in the past.
Yes, is the idea of havingcompassion and showing love
towards those who may havesuffered.
But yeah, as you said, it's thentaking the responsibility of
(08:11):
our, for ourselves, how can wenow create a better world?
How can we now really allow usto step forward and really take
the bull by the horns and reallyaction.
Steps to create more of aconnection with the earth,
(08:32):
create more of a connection withpeople from all around the
globe, because imagine, imaginea world where there's no
boundaries or borders and we'reall one, which we all are.
But imagine if we were allphysically able to get along,
how will the world be adifferent place?
Sam (08:51):
So I hear your emphasis on forward looking.
And creating that beautifulvision of oneness, yes I'm with
you in that vision and to getthere requires certain steps, I
believe, and while dwelling onthe past might be a place we
could get stuck.
(09:12):
It shouldn't be ignored.
That if I am to make a betterworld, one of equality and the
circle and oneness, we're notall starting from the same
point.
So there's a missing piece thatrequires looking backwards to
redeem, reconcile, repent, suchthat we can all start with
something that looks a bit morelike parity, because at the
(09:34):
moment there are differentpeople, different nations,
races, creeds, that are not onpar, that is not equity.
So I need us an invite are themen I work with to look back to
take responsibility so that wecan get to more of an equal
playing field now so that we canthen move forward and create the
world we dream of.
James (09:54):
Nice.
So how did you get to thisplace?
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself?
Sam (09:59):
Yeah, I was a wounded man.
I am a wounded man.
So how did I get here?
Through leaning into the wounds,not suppressing them with
medication, distraction,addictions, avoidance.
I'm sure I did all of that to acertain extent, but I really
discovered the importance oftherapy, of healing, of
(10:23):
embracing the shadows, lookinginwards.
Yeah, I think a big part of mypast, James, you might not know
this, is I grew up in the churchand while much of Christianity
speaks of healing andliberation, I think it's stuck
in a way, an old system way thatis very hierarchical and
controlled and rigid.
(10:45):
So part of my story was leavingthe church and expanding my
theology to embrace a biggerpicture and more of a.
liberated understanding of God,of spirit, of healing, of being
human.
So yeah, how did I get there?
That was a big part of it.
(11:06):
I've always been intospirituality and I think it's
constantly expanded.
I didn't throw the baby out withthe bath water when I left the
church.
Yeah.
And another theme alongsidespirit is my connection with
earth.
And the mother within a big partof why I criticize Christianity
is because it's oppressed thefeminine and it has rejected the
(11:29):
idea of a goddess, certainly inProtestantism where Mary as the
mother of Jesus isn't seen asfeminine.
a divine or held in high esteemlike the Catholics do.
So I found that in NatureConnection and coming to the
mother, coming to the feminine,coming to the mystery and the
(11:49):
flow and the yin energy in Gaia,in the trees and the plants and
the animals and the seasons.
So as I have rewilded myself, Ihave embraced my own femininity.
and learn to dance, learn toflow, learn to surrender.
My yin is now there, whereasbefore it was absent,
(12:10):
suppressed.
James (12:13):
How did the church really impact you with regards to your
beliefs?
Your limitations.
Sam (12:20):
Yeah, it's a mixed bag.
It impacts me for good and forbad.
And there's lots I am gratefulfor.
I say this regularly, that thechurch taught me the value of
prayer, of community, ofstudying scripture, of singing
together, of retreats andmeditation, food and sacred
meals, bringing the sacred intothe everyday.
(12:42):
Limitations, though, I think thetheology was narrow and the
interpretation of wonderfulscriptures, poetry and wisdom
writings was through a verynarrow lens and perhaps the
original writers got it wrong orI'd like to think that maybe
those who interpreted it,interpreted the original Hebrew
(13:04):
and other languages had theirown agendas or their own
limitations.
So there's a mixed bag thereJames and the baggage there of
what I've said before ofignoring my femininity.
not being trauma informed, notunderstanding the nuance of
psychology, not understandingthe great mystery.
(13:26):
That sounds like a paradox,understanding the mystery, but
giving space for mystery.
Ironically, because the churchis meant to be a faith
institution, but the church Iwas in was so definite.
So it's called Calvinist.
So, certain on the exegesis ofscriptures, there was no space
for a maybe.
And.
I love maybe I think maybe is aword of revolutions challenges
(13:51):
the certainty of Christianity,colonialism and capitalism, this
unholy Trinity, which is so fullof certainty.
No, this can't always becertain.
There's always a maybe.
And that's so liberating, eventhough it might also be scary.
James (14:08):
For me rather than using the word, maybe I'd use the word
curious and curiosity has beensomething that I've always had.
And so I was brought, I had togo to, as a child, I had to go
to church, and I suppose in somerespect, that's almost made me
resist the church, because Ialways had to, I had to go, and
(14:32):
for years, using the word God,Has really tainted the word for
me because it's almost forcedupon you and I'm not saying all
religions, but there's quite alot of religions that look for,
as they call it, God.
I would now see the word God assomething rather than male,
(14:56):
whether than or female, it'ssomething.
So it's unknown.
But is the idea that.
It all looks on the outside, soyou're always searching for that
thing, or God up in the sky willgive you finances, or will give
you that house, give you agirlfriend, or whatever you
(15:17):
want.
For me, it's that search inside.
God, for me, comes from theinside, which then obviously
brings back the power to myself.
And so now I can change my life.
I haven't got to have a churchchange my life, or whatever it
is.
Sam (15:37):
Said.
And actually, that's what Jesusteaches.
He said, God is within me.
And so he will be for you.
If you follow these teachings,you will learn that God can be
within you.
So that's the internal you talkabout.
Another word other than maybeand curiosity is both.
(15:57):
What if God is within andwithout?
And these are big terms and wejust don't know the answer.
What is it?
What's truth?
And that's what I'm saying.
There's a lot of maybes here.
A lot of, let's just imagineit's beautiful to wonder what
are the answer to life'smysteries and will we ever know?
I don't need to know for sure,but I like to work with things
like metaphor, mythology andarchetypes.
(16:20):
So for me, God, as a fatherpresence in the sky.
Is an archetype, a role modelfor me as a father, a role model
for me as a man to aspire to belike the son.
a place of consistency, order,the heat and warmth and nurture
of that sun, that fire energythat rains down, that is able to
(16:45):
bring holding and growth andorder and certainty and maybe by
extension the stars as they areall various forms of the, of
suns.
So navigation and clarity,that's all yang energy, that's
my archetype, the goddess.
It's something different.
That's maybe the moon.
That's the changeability.
(17:05):
That's the flow.
That's what wasn't in my form ofChristianity.
It's what I'm learning andwanting to learn more about is
how do I be more like the moonand surrender and trust and flow
and be reflective of the sun'slight.
Then there's something beyondall of that, which you might
call spirit, consciousness,prana, chi, and oneness.
(17:27):
And, We've just got these littlewords that try to help us
understand something on nonunderstandable.
James (17:37):
I last Wednesday I had a coaching session and we were
talking.
So we started to work on thesacred connection.
And she asked me the question,what does love mean to you?
And it sent you down thismassive rabbit hole.
It got to the point where itjust opened up completely.
(18:00):
And there's this idea that whenyou explore a term or a word,
and you get to that vast space,that kind of vast space, and you
literally are just coming upwith these terms, these ideas,
which you never even thoughtwere there, you know that you've
(18:21):
gone beyond yourself.
With regards to that termwhatever it is, and is the idea
that we are never going to beable to know this a hundred
percent, but it's that trust isthat knowing that kind of
surrender that, okay, that iswhere this word is going.
So the idea of love is this deepconnection within this vast
(18:47):
space of masculine and feminine,and this idea that.
There is no masculine.
There is no feminine.
It just is
Sam (18:59):
yeah.
I like to think that these areall maps, masculine, feminine,
or yin and yang are maps.
And like all maps, they arelimited.
They are representations oftruth, and it depends where you
are around a road, how that roadlooks.
(19:20):
But if you open your map app onyour phone, it's only gonna look
one way.
So That tree I'm looking atoutside the window isn't on
Google Maps.
All maps are limited, butthey're useful and they help us
when we get lost because theycut away some of the confusion
and the mystery and help us tomove forward.
So I'm a big map lover.
James (19:43):
Give us a direction.
Sam (19:45):
Yeah.
James (19:46):
And then we know which way to start going.
When you left the church, howdid you start to realize your
limiting beliefs and work withyour wounds?
Sam (19:59):
It's been an iterative journey.
It's been one of constantlyseeking.
And when I say seeking, it'slike seeking peace in an
embodied way, not feelingsomething's right.
Maybe I didn't have the languagefor it.
So I left this massive church,thousand people, and then found
(20:19):
a little church for 200 people.
And it felt a bit better in mybody.
But after a few years there, itwas still too much compromise.
So then I started a church in myhouse and we met.
On the couches and sitting andjust talking, sitting in circle
and praying and singing andlearning and connecting.
It was better.
(20:40):
And then eventually, I wasliving in Africa at the time,
moved back here and discoveredForest Church.
So we'd meet outside, we'd havefires and marshmallows and learn
to sing with the birds and prayin a seasonal liturgy, which was
lovely, it was better.
Each moment of pushing theboundary helped me connect more
with what felt right in my bodyand my heart and what felt more,
(21:08):
where I felt more access, whereI felt more access to God.
The obstacle was gone.
Each time I left one behind, itwas about dying.
Part of that had to die.
It was an obstacle to connectwith God, with myself, with my
power, with what I believe isour calling as humans.
And I believe the theology ofmuch of the church gets in the
(21:32):
way of connecting with God,ironically.
James (21:37):
Was, do you have any like a set method or anything that
you particularly did to workwith these wounds?
Sam (21:43):
I've tried lots of things.
I think one of my passions isjust, or idiosyncrasies, is just
diversity and trying differentthings.
So yeah, I have tried lots,James.
I've explored Islam.
I've explored Easterntheologies, Taoism and Tantra,
and I've explored consciousdancing and naturopathy and
(22:06):
nutrition and differentpolitical economic systems.
So I feel like once.
someone is questioning amainstream narrative, it just
snowballs.
So I was questioning mainstreamChristianity and what I'd grown
up with.
And then suddenly it wasquestioning other things.
How do we live as community?
How a family set up?
(22:26):
How do we manage our financesand our investments?
How can I be a man of integrityacross the board?
So there's not one answer toyour question, rather the
opposite that it involved liftturning the stones in every area
of my life.
James (22:41):
I suppose it's the awareness.
As soon as you have thatcuriosity and that sense of
awareness into whatever you'relooking at and you open it up
Because they say it 90 percentto your transformations
awareness the 10 percent is thenthe action
Sam (23:02):
Yeah other thing that comes up James is a big part of the
journey I think of healing isknowing who one is And in each
moment of death of transition,it's been shedding a skin and
getting more clear on myidentity so that I can now
really emphatically affirmmyself with something like a
(23:23):
mantra I know who I am.
I am this and this.
And that little prayer, thatpoem that I have, that is Stuck
onto my mirror is the result ofthese last 15, 20 years of
unpicking all the stuff from the2030 years before that.
Oh, it's a mixture actually.
(23:43):
Some of it is, yeah, my name isthis, it means this in Hebrew.
I am the son of Morris and he isthe son of Cyril.
I am the father of these twochildren.
And it's like coming home toself and having this,
Affirmation that I can speakover myself whenever I'm feeling
a bit shaky and all of that, allof those words are a powerful
(24:08):
spell to, to be the greatestversion of myself.
And it's the result of a lot ofsoul searching.
James (24:16):
So there's some, there's somebody who's listened to the
podcast who perhaps doesn't knowwhere they are or who they are.
What would you suggest or wherecould they start?
Sam (24:29):
Yeah.
Conversations need to be had.
If all of this is new to you asa listener, then follow this
thread, come talk to me, talk toJames, talk to other people who
are doing this type of work,where we engaging in these
topics and bring what we callthis consciousness to identity
(24:51):
and psychology and yeah, what itmeans to be human.
Yeah that's the, that's where Istarted James, just sitting in a
circle of men in a forest aboutseven or eight years ago.
And that changed my life.
I think doing some rites ofpassage is important as well.
So my expertise and.
(25:11):
Passion, compassion is for men.
And I think we have an endemicproblem that men do not know who
they are.
So we're talking on identityissues here and men have a
collective wound from ourforefathers who got hurt by the
system as well as women.
So there's a sense of insecurityor shame about being a man.
(25:34):
It's wrong to be masculine.
It's wrong to be chivalrous.
It's wrong to open the door.
It's wrong to be assertive.
It's wrong to be a provider orprotector.
And it's all in the same mix,the same toxic cocktail of
confusion.
How do I be a man when my body'stelling me this, but I'm hearing
(25:55):
these feminist narratives andthis accurate, shameful
inheritance from men who havecrossed the line and being
misogynistic, et cetera.
So then what has happened andwhy I say it's endemic is so
many men have pendulum swung andbecome these flaccid, nice guys.
I was the flaccid, nice guy forso long, but yes, man, just
(26:16):
peacekeeper avoiding conflictbeing a nice lad.
The nice boy, dare I say.
So what can someone do islistening is do a rite of
passage where you can let go ofthe old skin, the thing that no
longer serves.
Change the narrative.
The nice guy must die orintegrate and then embrace
(26:40):
healthy adult maleness.
And that's going to lookdifferent for everyone, but
there are some cues or maps thatwe can find through these rites
of passage.
James (26:49):
That would lead us quite nicely, actually.
What do you define as a healthyman?
Sam (26:56):
So what does it mean to be a healthy male?
There's not one answer to beinga healthy male.
And there's permission to bewhoever you are as a man.
At the same time, I thinkthere's some key fundamental
aspects that are primal andinstinctual about being a male.
And I might start with ouranatomy, that because of our
(27:19):
genitalia, we carry certainmetaphorical energetic powers.
Responsibilities, privileges,certainly differences to the
female anatomy.
Now I'm sensitive and cautiousabout this topic because it's
vulnerable talking aboutsexuality.
(27:40):
And in our current context ofgender fluidity and the trans
movement, I have.
Great sensitivity and humilityaround this topic at the same
time, working with cis men, Iunderstand that between our
legs, we carry seeds.
(28:02):
The semen is Latin for seeds.
We carry seeds by extension.
The words we speak are seeds.
The presence of a male bodyentering a room has a different
texture to the presence of afemale body or a feminine,
rather feminine body enteringthe room.
So it's clunky language becausemasculine overlaps with
(28:26):
maleness.
Sometimes it doesn't, sometimesmore so than others.
So as a masculine male, I entera room knowing that my presence,
my vibration, the base of myvoice, the seeds in my balls
carry authority.
I can author the space.
I can create a child.
I've created two children.
(28:47):
That is a huge privilege, a hugeresponsibility and a huge power.
So I think a healthy maleunderstands his power as a seed
carrier.
The other.
aspect of being male is ourcock, that there is a
penetrative facility, topenetrate a organ, to penetrate
(29:09):
the space.
So along with that authority isthis ability to penetrate the
space as a male bodied human.
So a healthy male understandsthat as well.
He carries the seeds.
He understands that he canpenetrate the space.
And whether that is how heconducts his business, how he
speaks to his children, how heposts on social media, how he
(29:30):
generates money, he's authoringthe space.
He uses his authority because heknows that is a primal anatomy.
Alongside authority comesresponsibility.
So he takes responsibility forhis children, a social media
post or anything he's authored,he's a responsible man.
And the third keyword we use inmy work is accountable.
(29:54):
Once he's authored the seeds, hehas a clear account of his
motivation.
and his willingness to takeresponsibility for the
consequence of his seeds.
So I'd like to work with thosethree words and I honor my
father actually who taught methat and authority,
(30:14):
responsibility andaccountability are three of the
answers I might have to thatquestion.
What does it mean to be ahealthy adult male?
Can
James (30:24):
you say them three words again please?
Sam (30:27):
Authority, responsibility and accountability.
James (30:32):
I think, from my own perspective, I was what you
called a Mr.
Nice Guy, kind of thing, andthere was a point in my life
where I would avoid a fight atall costs.
Even when she was having a a goat me, there was this idea that
I would get anxiety, I would getfear.
(30:54):
But I've come to learn that,It's for me, it's about, it's
the seed of my responsibility toput my own boundaries in place
to, to really have thatauthority over what I do and
create an impact in the way thatI'm creating good.
I'm creating a world which growsrather than declines.
(31:17):
And it's an idea from a man'sperspective that we have all
this power yet.
understanding and takingresponsibility that we don't, we
might not have to use all thatpower.
We have it, but we don't have touse it.
Sam (31:36):
Absolutely.
I think that's a big part ofbeing a healthy male is knowing
the power and discerning when touse it.
Healthy man also embraces hisfemininity.
So the time when he doesn't usehis seeds, where he chooses to
be quiet, he chooses to be insurrender and with the mystery
chooses to flow and trust orsubmit and that is of equal
(32:05):
value and perhaps morerevolutionary for a man to own
his femininity and know whenthat's appropriate.
So big part of adulting for menand women is just discerning
what energy to express in thatmoment.
James (32:19):
Yeah.
It's a big one that with amasculine feminine, you've got
the masculine, which is quiteoften, especially the warrior to
do with action, but then youbring it in utilizing the
feminine, the surrender, Sotaking the action, but then
allowing it to happen,surrendering it, allowing it to
be, see what happens.
(32:40):
And then if it, if somethinghappens again, action,
surrender, action, surrender.
They're almost in line with eachother.
Sam (32:48):
Yeah.
That's the dance of life andboth are so important.
Beautiful dance.
James (32:55):
Yeah.
So I did I remember, I think itwas a couple of years ago, I did
one of your retreats, the firstmen retreats.
Sam (33:05):
Yes.
James (33:06):
Can you explain the concept, because I found it
quite eye opening and veryhelpful from a men's
perspective.
How does the retreat, what kindof areas do you cover and how do
these areas help men to grow?
Sam (33:24):
There's a lot of answers to that.
What comes up first is that ourmain disease in Western society,
maybe beyond, certainly for men,Is disconnection that we are
suspicious of each other, thatthe capitalist motivation of
(33:48):
competition has become insidiousin being human.
So compete, and that has causeddisconnection.
The modern economy thrives ondisconnection.
So do you have the energy toborrow your neighbor's
lawnmower?
No, I don't really know themthat well.
Oh, let's just go to Homebaseand get another lawnmower.
(34:09):
Great for Homebase.
But rubbish for connection withthe neighbor.
He could have had a cup of tea.
Maybe they'd baked a cake.
It could have been a beautifulmoment to borrow a lawnmower.
So this disease is a problem.
Disconnection, mistrust,competition.
So on a first men retreat, likemany other retreats and men's
(34:31):
spaces, the medicine instantlyis connection and breaking down
the barriers of this connection,realizing that we have more in
common than we do.
That separates us.
So we create spaces for men toconnect with each other and
(34:54):
talk, listen, move, fight.
We do a bit of martial arts,just embodied practices.
If we're not fighting, thenmaybe it's just laughing or
drumming and playing music,lighting a fire, chopping wood.
It's very primal, very physical,very adventurous and fun.
And I'll keep going.
(35:15):
James, the, this connection iswith self as well.
So our space createsopportunities for men to slow
down and connect withthemselves.
And maybe that's really rare forthe man that he doesn't know
himself.
So we offer these milestones ona map of meanings.
(35:35):
So he can say, ah, that's, thathelps me understand myself
better.
And there's a two way processhere.
Cause he understands himselfbetter and connects with himself
often in the mirror.
Of another man sharing.
So when John shares about somechallenges with his marriage,
(35:55):
then Peter can understand hismarriage a bit better.
And in the third area, which isa big one for us, and we
particularly cherish andchampion is connection with the
mother, with Gaia, withcreation.
So inviting men, not just toconnect inwards, not just to
(36:16):
connect with the circle of men,but then to connect beyond.
To the trees, the plants, theseasons, our workshops and
events are always seasonallyinformed.
So our winter retreat, forexample, is called The Cave, and
it's subtitled HibernationWithout Isolation.
(36:36):
It's about slowing down.
It's about unpacking what doesit mean to be alone, to be
depressed, to be Decomposinglike in winter.
So connecting with the riversand the streams, the mountains
and the elements with earth,air, fire, and water.
Yeah.
We love to do that in a reallyfun, playful, but deep,
(36:59):
meaningful way.
James (37:01):
So one thing I love to do is a Ecstatic dance and I went
this Sunday.
And one thing that I got fromthat was that I felt very
disconnected.
And through exploring this alittle bit more over the last
couple of days, I've come torealize that quite often.
(37:22):
But from my own perspective andwhat I realize is that when we
feel disconnected from people,quite often it's because I feel
it's disconnected from yourself.
So when I connect back to myselfand are able to really connect
to my soul, connecting toothers.
(37:44):
Almost becomes easy because I'malready connected.
This is the idea that if youconnect to yourself, you connect
to the whole.
Sam (37:54):
Love it.
Yeah.
I believe in that.
And I don't think it's linear.
I think there's times where needothers to help us connect to
ourselves.
James (38:03):
Could you, I haven't talked about it very much.
Can we look a bit deeper intothe feminine and how do you
connect to the feminine and whatis the feminine energy?
Sam (38:13):
Feminine energy.
Is a pole on this map, a poleaway from that masculine
extreme, she knows how tosurrender, to trust, she's
comfortable with mystery and theunknown.
(38:34):
For me, she represents thecircle and cycles, understanding
the cyclical nature.
Of life.
It's hard to define this one.
I think it's harder to definefeminine than masculine.
And that's part of thedefinition is that it's hard to
define because the feminine ismysterious.
How can I put a mystery in a boxand give you a few bullet points
(38:56):
in this answer?
Obviously I can't, that would bea paradox.
So those are some thoughts onthe feminine.
I think in the cycle, key partthat's missing in the masculine
capitalist system is death.
And for me, the femininerepresents the essential nature
of regularly dying.
(39:18):
And because life is soobsessively focused on or growth
rather in the capitalisttemplate, we've forgotten how to
die.
So part of this femininefeminist revolution that I'm
part of is about learning todie.
Very well.
How do we surrender?
How do we die?
(39:38):
How do we embrace winter as theseason of slowing down of not
being productive or beingproductive in a different way?
Yeah,
James (39:51):
just to the people out there.
Can you just clarify what youmean by die?
Sam (39:55):
It metaphorically, allowing part of self that no longer
serves to Have a rest.
Yeah.
Yes.
So
there are parts of our psyche that formed in response
to triggers and traumas and wecan give thanks for them, but
there comes a time when they nolonger serve.
(40:16):
So let that part die.
Like a snake sheds its skin,like the leaves fall off the
trees as we get to winter, ah,it's gone.
I can let that part of my soulgo to bed or have a different
function.
It's not.
Running the show anymore.
Great, energetic, symbolic deathand in its place can come new
(40:40):
life like the phoenix on yourwall behind.
I think that's a great symbolfor the reincarnation that can
happen for us as humans.
James (40:51):
It's the rise of the new version of ourselves.
Yeah.
Can you tell us what do youoffer?
what do you do and what kind ofthings do you offer?
Sam (41:01):
Thank you.
Yes, I love working with men andI also work with women and the
focus is on understanding andliberating the masculine within.
So for the woman I work with,it's often about them embracing
their own masculinity and to getthere, they might need to heal
(41:23):
some wounds from father figuresor men in their past so that
they can then hold theboundaries themselves and have
that sense of order anddiscipline rather than
outsourcing it.
For the men who's mainly I workwith, it's about identity
formation and standing inconfidence and the redeeming.
(41:46):
The understanding of what itmeans to be a man working
through that shame we touched onearlier.
So I work one on one with thesepeople.
And then first men is myorganization with my team that
supports men to go on thesejourneys, these rites of
passages, these adventures,these camping trips, and we meet
regularly online and in person.
(42:07):
Throughout the year, we'veworked and met hundreds of men
over the last couple of years ofrunning this.
And I wouldn't.
Be doing anything else.
James (42:18):
Thank you very much, Sam.
Sam (42:20):
You are welcome.
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