March 6, 2025 • 59 mins
Are Modern Men Struggling with Love, Purpose & Emotional Connection?
In this deep, eye-opening conversation, I sit down with renowned love coach and embodiment teacher Shakti Sundari to explore the challenges modern men face in relationships, confidence, and self-growth. As my first female guest on Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, Shakti shares powerful insights into modern masculinity, emotional intelligence, and how men can break free from limiting beliefs to cultivate deeper relationships and personal fulfillment.
🔹 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
✅ How men can build confidence and redefine success on their terms
✅ The hidden impact of childhood conditioning on love, self-worth, and emotional intimacy
✅ Why men struggle with expressing emotions—and how to break free from societal expectations
✅ The real effects of porn addiction, loneliness, and emotional disconnection in men
✅ How movement and conscious dance can help unlock masculine & feminine energy
✅ How to cultivate self-awareness and create fulfilling relationships
🚀 If you’re struggling with dating, emotional connection, or feeling stuck in life, this episode is for you!
🎧 Listen now to gain practical tools to break free from self-doubt, build healthy relationships, and start living with purpose.
About Shakti Sundari:
Shakti Sundari is a love coach, writer, trailblazing wise woman & skilful curator of embodied awakening with a mission to bring more love, awareness and unity to life through the teaching & embodiment of tantric principles.
She published her first book - RAPTURE: A Guide to Sexual & Spiritual Awakening for Women - in 2020 and founded the Conscious Dating Collective at the start of 2025.
Instagram: @shaktisundari
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In this week's episode, we takea deep dive into why men
struggle with emotionalconnection.
We talk about how your deepestpain can actually unlock your
purpose, and the secret toconfidence and attraction has
nothing to do with chasing orproving yourself.
Welcome to Man (00:17):
A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:37):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (00:54):
Today I literally have my first woman on this podcast, and
it's Shakti Sundari.
How are you, Shakti?
Shakti Sundari (01:03):
I'm great, thank you.
I'm really, really excited.
I'm honoured to be your firstfemale guest.
It's a great honour.
James (01:12):
So.
The whole point of this episodeand what I'm thinking in the
whole of March is going to bebased on the topic of
relationships.
So, let's start off with, tellus a little bit about yourself.
Shakti Sundari (01:27):
Okay, so, um, my current iteration of who I am in
the world and what I'm showingup as is a love coach.
But basically for the last 20years, um, and a little bit
more, so 20 plus years, I'vebeen teaching different forms of
embodied awareness, likeconscious dance, yoga, and
tantra, and focusing onconscious relating or authentic
(01:52):
relating.
within that.
Um, before that I was, uh, inacademia and before that I
worked in business.
So it's kind of like, this islike my third career really in
terms of my life stages, butit's become my absolute,
absolute passion.
Um, this whole topic of loverelating and intimacy.
James (02:12):
So what actually got you into all this conscious dance
and, um, love and relationships?
Shakti Sundari (02:21):
Well, um, I guess in a nutshell, uh, the
conscious dance was somethingthat was just, I'm, I've always
loved to move.
I've always been very embodied.
I've been an athlete.
So that was something of me justpursuing a passion.
But what that did, because itwas a conscious dance practice,
which means bringing awarenessto what you're doing, rather
(02:41):
than just doing somethingautomatically, it began to.
Wake things up in me that Ihadn't been aware of until that
point.
And then in kind of in tandemwith that, I was in my second
marriage at the same time.
Um, I had children.
And then that marriage began toget rocky, kind of in tandem
(03:02):
with me for the first timeexploring what it is to be
conscious or aware in the body,and that marriage ended, and
also there was a lack ofintimacy at the end of that
marriage, um, and then I sort ofgot to the point where I
thought, right, the commondenominator here is me.
This is the second marriage.
(03:24):
I'm a single mom.
I've got two young children.
There's something here that Ineed to figure out about
relationships and about myself.
And, um, you know, I hadn't beenintimate with my husband for
four years.
And that, you know, sex intimacywas something that was really
important to me and meaningfulto me.
So it was kind of also in handin hand with that was like, how
(03:46):
do I make sense of my desire forsexual intimacy?
and healthy relationship.
And then the third part is, andhow do I integrate that with
being a more spiritual or a moreconscious being?
How do I bring all of thesethree different things together?
And that's, so I started offjust exploring for myself to
find meaning and to findhealing.
(04:08):
And then, you know, my mind wasjust blown open by all the
things that I discovered.
And I was like, Why did nobodytell me this?
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
You know.
James (04:18):
It's, it's almost like you've been on this, well, it
is, you've been on this path ofself discovery, of learning
about relationships, and in theend, finding a purpose.
Shakti Sundari (04:29):
Yes, exactly.
This is exactly how they say,you go from your karma to your
dharma.
You know, because I, Idiscovered that the root, and
this is the same for everybody,the root of all the issues or
problems or challenges ordifficulties that I was having
very much lay with, you know, myformative years, like my
(04:50):
childhood, the way that I wasparented, the family that I grew
up in, the dynamics of relatingthat were modeled, um, what love
meant in that family unit and inthe society that I was a part
of, and so, um, you know, that'skind of, the difficulties stem
from that to a large extent.
Um, so that was like my painbecame my gift, if you see what
(05:15):
I mean.
And that's, yeah.
James (05:18):
Yeah.
And I remember, I think it wasprobably two, three, four months
ago, I interviewed, um, one ofmy guests and he was talking
about how your biggest pain It'sall about, it's your purpose
because once you are able to diginto that pain, you are able to
(05:39):
find a way to overcome it andyou're able to help others to do
the same too.
Shakti Sundari (05:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
Totally.
That's, that's kind of a corebelief of mine and it's
something I actually teach.
Um, I call it the principle ofthe gift.
So it's like your deepestwounding, your deepest
challenge, the thing that youthink is the biggest fuck up in
your life.
is actually an invitation toyour greatness.
And I, you know, people can saythat, um, and just understand it
(06:06):
at a mind level, but I'veunderstood that on a lived
level.
I've come to know that is true.
So, yeah,
James (06:14):
it's, I can over last, I think it's been eight years,
2016.
Yeah.
Eight years.
And to be honest, Massive, uh,growth of spiritual and, uh,
personal development, and whatI'm noticing is that step by
step, I'm slowly figuring outwhat I'm meant to do, but it all
comes down to that idea of selfdiscovery and being able to step
(06:40):
into the worst parts ofourselves.
The shadows, but also, Isuppose, at the same time, it's
also accepting in the lightparts.
So, kind of having a wholebalance of everything, but at
very deep crutches of ourselves,that's what I believe is What
(07:00):
we're here, what we're meant toteach, what we're meant to
really go into, what we'resupposed to explore.
And yes, it's painful, and it'sterrifying, but it becomes
easier.
It becomes easier, and then itjust, yeah, it's one of those
things.
Shakti Sundari (07:15):
It does become easier, and I have to also say,
it's not like I ever set outwith the intention of like, Oh,
I'm going to teach Tantra.
I'm going to teach consciousrelating, like that was never
part of like a blueprint thatcame from the mind in terms of a
strategy.
You know, for me, it was verymuch, I would see something and
I just felt this.
(07:36):
This, like, with the consciousdance, which is how it all
started off, really, I just wentto a class, and I thought, I
fucking love this, I want toteach it.
And I just didn't think aboutit, it was just such a strong, I
need to teach this.
And I followed that impulse.
And then every other step, forme, was just I had an inner
impulse, like a calling or aknowing or a sense of like, yes,
(07:59):
inside my body, which told me tofollow it.
So it wasn't like a master planthat, you know, somebody had
engineered for me or I sort ofwrote down the steps like this
and then this and then this andthen this.
And it included.
You know, along the way, lots ofmoments where I really couldn't
see the wood for the trees, andI thought I was completely lost,
(08:19):
and I thought, you know, I wasat my lowest ebb, I was
hopeless, I was crying my eyesout, I was on the floor, like,
literally heartbroken manytimes, you know, so it involved
going through those deepest,darkest Um, sort of bottom, like
being at the real bottom of, ofeverything, you know, like going
through that many times as wellwithout understanding the
(08:42):
meaning of it, withoutunderstanding why.
And I even, I remember sayinglike, why is this happening to
me?
Why is this happening to me?
It doesn't seem fair.
I remember having that thoughtquite a few times.
It's not fair.
Why is this happening?
I've done all the right things.
Why is this still happening?
You know?
James (09:00):
Yeah, I can, I can relate to them in relationships, so
I've been through quite a fewrelationships, but each time
it's almost like a steppingstone.
I've gone on to the next, butkind of slightly leveled up, and
then again, and then again.
But I see people who go fromrelationship to relationship to
relationship, and from my ownperspective, it's kind of, I
(09:22):
feel as though when you come outof a relationship, my personal
opinion is that it's down to youto do the work.
In order that you don't have thesame happen again.
Shakti Sundari (09:33):
For sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And again, for me, that was kindof one of the biggest switches
that's taken place over allthese years of like, studying
and teaching and like, fuckingup.
Uh, and I really want to make,like, really clear to everyone,
like, I fucked up so many timesand now I just very happily own
it because I think it's like ateaching for everybody else that
we, we can't, you know, we'reimperfect, we're imperfect and
(09:55):
perfect.
But it's like the biggest switchfor me was going from thinking
it was everybody else's faultor, you know, it was, it's
because of this, but likepointing to something outside of
me.
The biggest shift has been likethose fingers of like, you know
what they say?
Like when you point your finger,like you've got four fingers
(10:16):
pointing back at you and then Ilike literally through the
process of repeating patternsthat were very painful and very
challenging, realizing, well, itcan't be just all about them.
There's got to be something herethat's about me and like taking
it all back.
So getting to the point where Ireally own everything in my
life.
I'm responsible for.
Everything in my life, I create.
(10:36):
Everything in my life, you know,it's up to me to choose and
determine and how I respond, howI react, how I think.
It's all up to me.
James (10:47):
So with regards to, so obviously this is towards men.
And what I was thinking withregards to this session today,
we could perhaps start to movethe switch and kind of navigate
how men can really step andstart to own.
Their own responsibilities, butalso to own themselves.
(11:10):
So, with regards to mengenerally, what are some of the
biggest challenges that men facewhen navigating today's fast
paced world?
Especially when there's so muchdisconnection.
Shakti Sundari (11:24):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it is a challenging
situation out there.
But again, you know, you can usethe word challenge or you can
use the word opportunity.
And I would prefer to see it asan opportunity.
Everything is shifting.
So society is moving at such afast pace.
There's all this technologyeverywhere.
(11:45):
The way that people meet andrelate has changed dramatically
in the last 10, 20 years, like,you know, so much has gone
online and yet we all knowthere's an epidemic of
loneliness.
particularly for men.
And from what I'm seeing, andthis isn't just my own personal
perspective, because I'm readingand listening to other podcasts
and, you know, really curious,there is this epidemic of
(12:08):
loneliness and men wanting toconnect, but not really, um, or
having having difficultyunderstanding how to make that
happen.
And, um, so I see that and Youknow, I can also see this as a
wonderful opportunity for all ofus to actually really kind of
inquire like what is it Iactually want and how do I make
(12:32):
that happen and seeing that theway the world is set up isn't
necessarily like there are somethings aren't so healthy about
that.
Um, and.
You know, that, that it starts,it starts with you and it starts
with making changes andcomplaining about the way things
are isn't gonna change it.
(12:52):
So it's gonna be up to you tofigure out, like, how do I
shift, how do I shift thisreality?
And shifting this reality startswith me and how I engage with
other people and how I engagewith life and how much I use
technology and how much I useporn.
And it requires some, like,asking yourself some really
hard, honest questions.
(13:13):
Because I think that it's veryeasy to avoid those hard
questions, um, and, and sort ofgo into being a victim.
And the hard questions are, youknow, basically, are you
avoiding your own pain?
Are you avoiding your ownloneliness?
Are you avoiding your own desirefor connection?
Are you using, um, superficialconnection?
(13:34):
Are you using dating apps?
Are you using porn to actuallytry and fulfill this need for
connection, but not reallymeeting that deeper need
underneath that.
You know, and, and then thatrequires becoming a little bit
vulnerable to admit what'sunderneath that desire and to
recognize that we all want toconnect.
(13:56):
It's like a human need.
It's a human desire and there'snothing shameful about that.
I think, um, there can be, uh,particularly for men, this sense
of like, I have to have it alltogether.
I have to know all the answers.
I can't show what might beperceived as a weakness.
Um, you know, and just like,just me speaking up recently
(14:21):
about wanting to date.
Everyone said to me, oh, that'sso courageous of you.
And I'm like, why is thatcourageous?
You know, it's my truth.
I would love to date somebody,but people see that as a
courageous thing to say.
Um, so it's quite interesting.
James (14:36):
Let's, actually, let's, now I've got the opportunity,
let's step into thevulnerability, because I can, I
can feel fear within inside me,and I, I can admit that I've
had, I've had in the past a pornproblem, and again, there's
still times when I do have aporn problem, but from my own
perspective, and I'm delving alittle bit deeper into this.
Yeah.
(14:57):
It is a sense, there's a disconnect to the, to the idea
of porn, and at the same timethere's this idea underneath
it's loneliness, but underneaththat, it can be a sense of lack
of love.
Shakti Sundari (15:13):
Yeah, okay, so, um, there's a few things I can
respond to there, so, um, Idon't want to shame anybody.
Right?
And I think shame is such astrong inhibitor of well being
and connection.
And it is an emotion thateverybody feels.
So, um, when I talk about porn,I know it's a big issue, but I
(15:36):
also don't want any manlistening to feel that I'm
trying to shame him.
I get the reasons behind whythat's appealing.
Um, and also men and women aredifferent in my, you know, in my
understanding, right?
And I also know from what I'vestudied and experienced that,
that kind of when you get intoan addictive relationship with
(15:57):
that, um, way of engaging.
It's really not healthy for yourmental, emotional, or spiritual
well being, and it's not goingto meet that need that you have
for connection.
So, the fear, like, fear issomething that's going to come
up when somebody kind of sayssomething, like I'm saying, that
might feel a bit confronting.
(16:18):
Because then the invitation is,you know, what am I really
looking for?
And that's when thevulnerability comes, because
it's like, underneath that,there's like, oh, I'd really
just love To have someone acceptme for who I am.
I'd really love to have somebodylisten to, to me.
I'd really love to have somebodycare about me.
I'd really love some physicaltouch.
(16:39):
I'd really love to express mysexuality.
And I don't know how to makethat happen with real people,
you know, so there's, there is avulnerability there.
There's the, uh, that I, that Iperceive, um, and that is really
beautiful because it creates anopening.
It creates a potential for, um,for a more honest way of being
(17:04):
with yourself and creates aninvitation to change something
and to take some courageoussteps.
Um, and I think it's importantfor us to exploring, well, how
do I connect with people face toface, how I do I connect with
people in the flesh, rather thanonline, you know, how do I do
it, and opening up to beginningto explore that and knowing that
(17:26):
you will feel uncomfortable.
James (17:29):
So in the short terms, obviously, how can men start to
feel connected when they perhapsdon't have anybody around them
to feel connected?
So how can they go about andexplore that?
Shakti Sundari (17:44):
Okay, so, um, the first thing I would say to
that is that if you're lookingfor all of this connection
outside of you, there's anelement of that that I would say
is unhealthy.
And disempowered so I'm justgoing to be really straight and
(18:08):
will lead to you probably havinga Um, less successful
relationships because you'relooking to get something from,
assuming you're heterosexual,but you know, you could be any,
any, um, you know, sexuality,but if I'm assuming you're a
heterosexual, then you'relooking to get something from a
(18:28):
woman rather than show up inyour wholeness, in your
fullness.
In your self care, in your selflove, in your I'm already
worthy, to connect with anotherwoman who is the same as that.
If you're looking to take, ifyou're looking to get, to
fulfill, like, to fill somethingthat's empty inside you, it's
(18:51):
going to create a dysfunctionaldynamic.
So the first part is torecognize what you need, and to
give that to yourself, and tobegin to cultivate a sense of
worthiness.
Well being, self love, self carefor yourself.
That's the most important thing.
And I would say the same to awoman, actually.
(19:12):
Because, you know, you mightthink, um, like, one's better
than the other, or one's higheror lower.
Everybody I speak to, reallyfundamentally, like, there are
differences between men andwomen.
But ultimately, we all have thesame shadows.
We all have the same light.
We all have the same potential.
We all have the same issues.
And we all long for connectionand love.
(19:33):
You know, ultimately.
But it starts with self care,self love, self worth.
So, so, like if you're in asituation where you don't feel
good about yourself.
What can you do to begin tobuild your confidence?
What can you do to begin to takecare of your body?
Um, what can you do to begin tocultivate a better mental state?
(19:54):
So things like meditation,things like working out, things
like doing activities that youreally enjoy, pursuing a hobby
that, that makes you feelaccomplished.
So you begin to develop this foryourself.
Um, and then when you go intoconnection, you know, there's
less anxiety, there's less need,there's less grabbing, less
(20:15):
trying to get something.
And then the sexuality is theother part of that because I
don't want to deny that and Ilike to be very open about this
because it's a really importantpart of our being human is our
sexuality.
Um, and it's not to repress ordeny that aspect of yourself,
but it is to understand thatyour sexual energy and your
sexual desire are yours.
(20:35):
And you are responsible forthem.
And again, not to, um, makesomebody else responsible for
your sexual, uh, well being.
There are many ways that a mancan learn to channel his sexual
energy and self pleasure, forexample, and, and begin to fill
his whole body with, with thatenergy so that he feels more
(20:56):
empowered, more alive, morevirile, um, more healthy, um,
you know, they're, they're Thereare ways to do that.
I don't want to go into too muchdepth now, but I hope that
answers your question.
James (21:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, because I noticed when, whenyou were continually watching
porn, there's this idea that youalmost treat women as a piece of
meat.
And there's this idea that youget, men go out.
are nights out for the simplereason to go into, as people
say, get laid.
Yeah.
(21:27):
And that's not really I suppose from doing a lot of
personal and spiritual growth,I've come to learn that it's, it
becomes very unhealthy.
And it's, it's that idea thatyou're just going out for a
simple thing, not even toconnect to that person.
You've got, you've got one goalin mind.
(21:49):
And But again, I think from aman's perspective, it's almost,
it's almost ingrained into us ina little, in a little bit from
societies, obviously getting alittle bit more stricter on
things like porn, but it's so,it's so, it's so big and so fast
(22:11):
and it's so almost in your face.
Yeah.
And then there's the idea that when you start talking
about porn with friends orfamily, uh, or in schools, it's
almost a taboo subject.
So you can't even, it's the ideaof shame, keeping it to
yourself.
Shakti Sundari (22:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, that's that's the thingand that's what they're banking
on because I just want tohighlight like, you know, in a
way, just think about it fromthe highest perspective in terms
of who's making money out ofthis, like, I don't know the
exact figures, but it's one ofthe biggest, if not the biggest
industry, they're making so muchmoney out of men's addiction to
(22:50):
it.
And like you say, it's, um, sothink of yourself like being
caught up in that energeticallyand being exploited.
It's.
Like your desire is beingexploited and you're not really
finding a place of fulfillmentand you probably end up feeling
shit afterwards as well becausethen you probably start judging
yourself for what has happened,right?
(23:12):
So it's not a healthy dynamicfor you.
And the thing about theobjectification as well, that is
so true.
And of course, um, it's whatthen gets in the way of a real
connection because Um, from awoman's perspective, like, a
woman yearns for a man'spresence.
(23:33):
A woman yearns to be seen by herpartner and to be seen for who
she is, not to be seen as asexual object.
A woman will open.
This is the irony that I reallywish men would get, it's like a
woman will open to a mansexually if she feels seen,
(23:54):
which means her whole self, notjust like a means to an end, and
appreciated and respected andcared for, safe.
So seen and safe.
If a woman feels seen and safe.
She is way more likely to opensexually, so you have to
understand we are opposite, weare different, it's kind of the
(24:16):
other way around.
And, um, the more, in general,the more that a man approaches a
woman with that, if it's onlycoming, like, with the sexual
intention, we can feel it, it'sobvious.
And it's, it's like walls willgo up and then you wonder why
you're not connecting.
(24:37):
Well, that's why if you insteadreign that energy in and realize
that it is yours and you canstill have the energy in your
body, but you're not liketransmitting it out and you see
with and basically bring thatenergy into your heart.
Then you begin to understand andrealize like, oh, this is a
(24:57):
human being.
This is another soul.
This is another person who hasissues like I have.
This is somebody who might bevery sensitive.
Like you begin to see them as awhole person.
And you respect them just withcuriosity, and not with a very
blunt objective, they are farmore likely to be open to
(25:18):
talking to you.
Because women are verysensitive, we can feel these
things intuitively in our field.
So if a stranger starts talkingto me, and I can kind of feel
like he's only wants one thing,I'm not going to want to talk to
him.
If he starts talking to me withgenuine curiosity and genuine
interest in who I am, My guardwill slowly come down and I'm
(25:40):
sensing all the time.
Is he safe?
Is he safe?
Is he safe?
Does he just want one thing?
Is he safe?
Is he safe?
And the more safe I feel themore I will respond by relaxing
my guard and opening and givingyou what you want And it's not
like a conscious thing.
But what what men crave isfeminine energy, which is
playfulness Joy, flirtation,happiness, expression, um,
(26:06):
laughter, like warmth, love,connection.
That's what men crave from thefeminine.
And we can only be in that if wefeel safe and if we feel seen
and respected.
So it's, it's kind of likeironically what everyone's doing
is getting in their own way.
James (26:22):
So, what other challenges do men face in relationships,
but especially in a world where.
Men's masculinity is beingredefined.
Shakti Sundari (26:34):
Right.
Um, can you say the questionagain one more time, please?
James (26:38):
So, we've obviously mentioned about porn and some
other things.
So what other challenges do menface in a world where
masculinity is changing on sucha big, big way?
Shakti Sundari (26:53):
Right.
So, the fact that, that, um,masculine identity is changing
is a good thing.
Um, it's a bit destabilizing andI can see the effect of that
destabilization for men aroundthe world at the moment.
And it seems to be creating alot of polarity.
So in the one hand, you have menkind of going into the incel
(27:16):
extreme of hating women andblaming women and staying really
stuck in a very resentful,angry, victim consciousness,
which, um, is, I find sad andYou know, because underneath
that is a lot of pain, is a lotof pain and grief and loneliness
and a sense of stuckness and notknowing how to get out of it.
(27:39):
Um, and on the other hand, thenthere's this question.
It's like, Oh, women want me tobe more feminine or to be more
soft or to be moreunderstanding, but then they
don't like it when I'm too soft.
So like, what else, what thefuck am I supposed to do?
I don't know.
I don't know.
What, what am I supposed to dothen?
So I really get that.
Um, um, and the other thing Iwant to say is it's also really
(28:01):
good that the sort of thepatriarchal paradigm that has
dominated for so long isshifting.
You know, because the way I seeit, we're moving towards a world
where there is ultimately, itmight not look like it, more
love, more understanding, andmore respect and honoring
between men and women, where wereally see, like, you are my
(28:22):
brother.
You are my sister.
We're not here to fight eachother.
We're here to co create abeautiful world together.
We're here to co createbeautiful relationships
together.
So that's the potential.
It's happening and that's whatwe're moving towards more and
more and more.
We're not there as a wholesociety yet.
Um, it does require inner workand it does require
(28:45):
contemplation and it doesrequire getting vulnerable and
beginning to do things like, um,looking for role models.
Who do you see in the world?
Who is a strong role model of ahealthy masculine.
So the thing with patriarchy isthat, um, it basically is a
shadow expression of thepositive forms of masculinity.
(29:08):
So being leading.
Living on purpose, being driven.
These are all great qualitiesthat from what I hear, women
desiring men, we want you tostep up.
We want you to take the lead.
We want you to, um, feel a senseof honor to protect those that
you care about, you know, theseare qualities that are very
(29:30):
positive.
But what's happened in thepatriarchal world is it's gotten
out of balance and only theshadow forms are kind of like if
you look at the primary maleleaders in the world right now,
a lot of them that they're kindof is so out of balance because
they have lost connection withtheir feminine qualities as
well.
So it's a bit of rebalancingthat needs to happen between.
(29:51):
So when I talk about thefeminine, what I mean is your
body.
Uh, your emotions and yoursexuality and for a lot of men
there's a disconnect or a cutoffbetween those aspects of your
being and the more masculineaspects such as your mind and
your willpower, for example, andyour sort of your drive.
Um, so going to men's groups,looking for role models, doing
(30:15):
the inner work to explore whatshaped you to be the man that
you are, you know, understandingthat the way you've been
parented and your culture andyour society have shaped you.
And I think there does need tobe some inquiry around toxic
masculinity.
Um, some people don't like thatphrase, but like, what does that
(30:36):
mean?
And where can I take ownershipand how can I step up so that
women do feel safe in the world?
How can I call my brothers outwhen I see them behaving in a
way that I know is going to behurtful or damaging to a woman?
And how can I cultivate honorand love for myself so that I am
willing to stand up and bedifferent?
(30:57):
Because I, I do think it doestake a lot of courage.
You know, there can be this sortof buddy mentality or the pack
mentality for men.
Like I've got, just to say, I'vegot a son and a daughter, so
I've seen them grow up.
They're in their early twentiesnow.
My son is an athlete, so he wasalways with a bunch of male
athletes.
And, you know, there is thatlocker room talk that happens.
(31:19):
So how do you, in thatenvironment, have the strength
of character, which is verymasculine, to, to stand in your
truth?
You know, integrity is a verymasculine quality to be in your
integrity and say, actually,guys, I really don't like the
way that you're talking about.
So, and so right there, youknow, it's not respectful.
How do you do that withoutbecoming so rigid that, you
(31:43):
know, that that's kind of beentipping into a shadow.
But those are some of the thingsI would, I would say that I
would highlight.
James (31:51):
So one thing, one thing I love to do, I love to do
conscious dance, like yourself,and what I noticed, I went to,
um, a dance a weekend on Sunday,and there was a girl that I
admired on the dance floor, butwhat I kind of noticed was that
it wasn't necessarily me.
The woman herself, it was someof that aspect, so there was the
(32:14):
aspect of beauty, the aspect ofcourage, aspect of, uh, flow,
and, uh, yeah, them kind ofaspects.
So, sometimes I feel as though Ialmost project those things,
them positive aspects of myselfonto this other person.
Which gives you that idea that,okay, I like this woman.
(32:35):
So then I was allowing myself,in that dance, to own those
parts, to own that inner beauty,to own the courage, to own the
elegance, and allow this, theseaspects to really change how I
was dancing.
And so I was able to nicely, Iwas starting to delve a little
(32:56):
bit deeper into the divinemasculine and divine feminine
and allowing both parts to syncas I danced, which is quite a
profound experience because youcould see the difference.
So the divine feminine, you'remore flowy, you're slower,
you're, it's kind of theelegance.
(33:17):
Whereas in the Divine Masculine,it's a lot more, a lot more
faster paced.
It's kind of like a bit moreerratic.
There was a sense of, um,allowing that masculine energy
of tribal music to really,really come out.
And I think dance, Is a greatway to explore these male, these
(33:40):
masculine and feminine traitsand to explore yourself as a
person.
Shakti Sundari (33:47):
For sure.
I mean, you know, I'm a dancerand it's like my absolute
passion.
So I'm dancing all the time andgoing to things like static
dance and five rhythms, whichare like moving meditation
practices.
And you're right.
Um, and I really, so there's twothings that I would draw from
what you've just said.
So the first thing that you saidwas about projection and that's
a really important point thatyou've made.
(34:07):
Which is that we tend to projectonto other people or onto our
partners both the qualities thatwe desire um And the qualities
that we hate so we tend toproject them onto other people.
Um, and Exactly that really whatthat is is those people are
mirroring back to us I desire tobe that, which means it's
(34:29):
already within you somewhere.
And I reject that part of me,which is when you, when you kind
of judge and hate on people,it's actually, you're rejecting
something that's, that's activewithin you.
Right.
So being aware of what you'reprojecting is really helpful for
healthy relating.
Then the other part is yourbody.
So And this is something that'sso important for men because,
(34:50):
yeah, you tend to be more inyour heads.
And one of the key things that'sgoing to help you connect better
with yourself, and then withothers, and with women, is to be
more embodied and to begin tocultivate that balance of body
and mind as one.
Which is like, if you want toshorthand it, it's like Feminine
and masculine as one.
(35:11):
And then the final part that yousaid about, you know, like
dancing, you're feminine anddancing, you're masculine.
And like, what does it like tohave them together?
I love that.
I do that myself.
So sometimes, you know, I feellonely.
Sometimes I feel horny.
Um, so when I go dancing, Iimagine myself dancing with my
inner masculine.
And like, I imagine us makinglove inside my body while I'm
(35:33):
dancing.
So that I'm not, like, hookingonto the men in the space to get
that from them.
I create it for myself.
And then, you know what theinteresting thing is?
I remember this so clearly.
I remember doing this one day.
I went to the five rhythms and Iwas like dancing with my inner
masculine and I was justbasically then so complete
(35:53):
because there wasn't anemptiness.
There wasn't a void.
There wasn't a need.
There wasn't a looking like, Oh,where are the good looking men
in the space?
I was like, so in myself andlike with myself.
And then I had never had so manygood looking, gorgeous men come
up and dance with me as on thatnight that I was.
It like fully within my ownfullness and juiciness and inner
(36:17):
making love.
It was just really, reallyinteresting to observe that
happening.
So I can imagine it would, ofcourse, work the other way
around as well.
If you're not like, you know,where's all the hot girls and
you're
like
the hotness with yourself and having a really
great dance that it's going tobe more attractive to then, you
(36:38):
know, it's kind of like theopposite to what people are
doing.
Like we said before.
James (36:42):
It's again, it's about being, being in your own frame.
So rather than projecting yourenergy out to that person or a
person over there, it's bringingyour energy back.
And I think dance is probably,for me, from my own personal
perspective, dance has helped meto go from when I first started
conscious dance three, threeyears ago, being in my head.
(37:06):
To literally now, whenever Idance, it probably takes me two
or three songs to get into mybody.
And then, it's just allowing,then the body almost directs
what, it kind of directs what,where, basically, yeah.
It directs where you're going.
It flows.
And there's this idea that, um,You might feel angry, or you
(37:30):
might feel sad, or you mightfeel grief, and it's an
opportunity to connect andaccept these emotions.
Shakti Sundari (37:38):
Mm hmm.
Yes.
And, yeah.
Sorry, sorry I interrupted you.
Go on.
Go on,
James (37:42):
carry on.
Shakti Sundari (37:43):
I just got excited.
It's just such a good way tomove energy, because emotion is
energy, right?
And if we don't allow ourselvesTo acknowledge any emotion and
repress it, which men do morethan women, they kind of like,
Oh, I can't show emotion, likekeep it inside.
(38:03):
I want to tell you that thatemotion is going to stay in your
physical body.
It will stay in your tissues.
It will stay in your organs.
It will be here and it will, um,shut you down.
So you'll be less.
able to feel.
Less able to feel means lessable to connect, means less able
to be intimate.
(38:25):
Um, because like repressingemotion shuts, shuts everything
down in your system.
So then that's again why somepeople then need more extreme
experiences to feel anythingbecause there's, there's like
such a contraction.
And the body as a result.
So dance and any other dancemight not be for everybody,
(38:46):
though.
Try it once, guys.
It could be some other form ofconscious movement, right?
It's a wonderful way to justrelease emotion with no story.
Like you don't need to go intosome big, like psychoanalytical
thing about all I'm feelingthis.
And that's because my mom didthis to me when I was five.
You know, you can just just moveand the energy moves.
and after two hours of lettingloose.
(39:09):
You'll end up in a completelydifferent space where your mind
is clear, your body feels great,the energy in your system has
moved and everything's just morerelaxed.
Everything's just more relaxedand chilled out and like, oh,
and from that place, you know,then again, you're much more
available for a healthy level ofconnection with yourself and
(39:31):
then with other people.
I mean,
James (39:34):
you can, I do notice it when I'm, when I'm in my own
frame dancing on the dancefloor.
When you are literally havingfun and just being you and not
worrying about anybody else, youwill notice women looking at
you.
Oh, of course, and it's becauseI think it's, it's nothing to do
(39:55):
with, you're not projecting out.
You project, you're bringingyourself, you're bringing
yourself in and there's thatfeel and you, you are being you
on the dance floor and it's, andit is a very profound
experience.
Shakti Sundari (40:08):
That is the key to so much.
And, um, thank you for bringingthat up.
So I have a friend who runsecstatic events.
ecstatic dance events in Londonand their, the name of their,
their company is URUBU, uh,which is the acronym U R U B U,
(40:29):
because there's nothing morebeautiful and there's nothing
more attractive than a personwho is being authentically
themselves, nothing.
And we feel safe with someonewho's themselves.
You know as well and it's reallyattractive and because again
like speaking from personalexperience and having worked
with clients for so many Yearsone on one and in groups as well
(40:49):
Like the biggest thing is thatwe are taught as children to be
inauthentic And I don't mean inthe sense that your parents are
saying.
Oh, you know, you should beinauthentic but basically what
that means is because we had todo certain things as young
children to survive and to Um,and it's not because someone's
deliberately trying to make usfeel safe and to be loved.
(41:10):
We began to bend ourselves outof shape from our original
innocent nature to fit into thefamily structure or to fit into
the school structure.
So certain things that we usedto do like quite innocently,
like we learned not to dobecause it maybe wasn't safe
because maybe we'd get a slap.
Maybe we'd be told off.
Maybe everyone would take thepiss out of us and we'd like
(41:31):
feel really hurt.
So we stopped being ourauthentic selves and it's not
because someone's deliberatelyTrying to do that, but it's just
what happens.
So there's like this false selfthat then gets overlaid onto who
we really are.
And for me, the whole spiritualawakening journey has been
actually like, it's kind ofironic, but it's like taking all
(41:51):
those layers back off again toreveal like, who am I really?
Like, what is my essence?
And having the courage and theconfidence to just be true to
who I actually am without selfconsciousness, without fear of
judgment.
And I have been doing this foryears, so it's not like this was
(42:14):
easy at the start, I've got tobe honest.
But now it's second nature.
And then two things happen.
You become very inspiring toother people, just innately
without having to try.
Um, and you become moreattractive.
And then also you line yourselfup with the right people for
you.
Because most of the time, you'rebending yourself out of shape to
(42:35):
try and fit with somebody whereyou're just not aligned.
Like, no blame or judgmentneeded, but like, it's the best
way to get into a relationshipwith the right person is just to
be authentically yourself andnot try to please them, which
men and women do, both, peoplepleasing, you know.
Or, um, hide the bits thatyou're ashamed of, because
(42:57):
you're scared they won't likeyou.
Um, or not speak your truth,again, because you've learnt
that it's safer not to.
All these things are verydamaging to healthy connection,
so.
I
James (43:08):
Why do men.
struggle to connect so deeplyemotionally?
Shakti Sundari (43:13):
I think there are several reasons.
Um, I do think there aredifferences.
Um, I think the orientation inthe masculine is more to action,
simplicity, um, thinking, um,solving problems.
And I think there's like, um,you know, historic reasons for
(43:37):
that in terms of survival, likeright back to cavemen and
hunting and stuff.
You have to be focused.
to get the job done.
And it wasn't safe to feel youremotions.
If you're out there and a lion'schasing you, you know, you don't
have time to think about that.
You've got to kill the fuckinglion.
Right.
So that's when turning off theemotions was helpful for our
evolution.
So I think there's a part ofthat in, in the equation.
(44:00):
Right.
But then there's the wholesocialization part, which of
course, you know, that we'vealready spoken about the model
that it's not manly to haveemotions.
It's not manly to cry.
And sadly, there are peoplestill in society, teachers and
parents and leaders who'vemodelled that and reinforced
that by the way that they'veparented.
So that's also part of theissue.
(44:23):
And then I think that there's afear of appearing to be weak.
And being rejected for that.
And again, I think other men insome circles may have encouraged
that, you know, like you callother guys, like you're a pussy,
you're a wuss, like, you know,you use those it's quite
interesting because men usewords that refer to feminine
(44:47):
parts to say you're weak.
In other words, saying.
Because the feminine is weak.
You're weak like pussy, right?
Actually, pussies give birth.
So like, come on guys, that'snot weak.
I've given birth twice.
Right.
Um, but, but it's kind of,again, what, what all that
(45:10):
conditioning has taught you isthe wrong way around because
it's really fucking courageous.
To own and feel your emotionwithout making anyone else to
blame for it and to holdyourself in that.
That's really strong, so it'snot weak.
(45:33):
It's actually more weak torepress and to deny out of fear
of rejection or fear ofappearing to be something.
That's more weak.
It's kind of, again, it's anirony.
It takes a lot of courage.
To feel what you really feel andto own that and to allow
yourself to go into that.
(45:54):
And it is necessary because whathappens a lot in dynamics with
men and women is that if a manhasn't done this inner work to
begin to become more comfortablewith his emotions and his body,
because body and emotions gohand in hand, when his woman
gets emotional, he won't be ableto tolerate it.
He will feel so anxious and souncomfortable in her presence
(46:18):
that he will get defensive.
Or he will shut her down.
Or he will say something nasty.
Um, or he'll just have to leavethe room.
Um, because he hasn't done thatinner work yet.
Basically, the more a man iscomfortable with his own
emotions, the more present hecan stay to his woman when she
is in her emotions.
(46:39):
and being present doesn't meanthat you accept any kind of
abuse.
It doesn't mean that you accept,you know, disrespectful
behavior.
It just means that if a woman iscrying or upset or angry or
frustrated or any emotion, andlike that's part of being
feminine is really feelingeverything, um, that you're able
to just stand there and breathe.
(47:02):
Feel yourself really rooted andgrounded in your body and in,
you know, on the earth.
And even if there is a bit ofreaction that's happening to not
feel overwhelmed and afraid ofit, which is what could be a
common thing that happens and tojust stay there.
And that is like one of thegreatest gifts a man can give a
woman is, is his presence.
(47:23):
That is like, you don't need todo anything.
You don't, you just need to bethere and to breathe and to be,
I see you, I hear you, Iunderstand.
Gosh, I feel that, you know, Iget how that must feel for you.
I couldn't, you know.
And that is going to soothe herdown, like, and just soften her.
She's going to love you forever.
(47:45):
If you develop that capacity.
James (47:49):
I think from a men's perspective, we've been so
ingrained into fixing things.
So if we've got an issue, downin the garage, we'll go and fix
it.
If we've got an issue in ahouse, like a door, we'll go and
fix it.
But, you know.
Women want to be heard, so howcan men shift that mindset from
(48:12):
wanting to fix it, to beingpresent, to listening, to
hearing what she says?
Shakti Sundari (48:19):
Yeah, um, it's such a big one this, um, thank
you for bringing it up, and Ialso want to say, I love a man
who can fix things.
I love it.
I, like, my dad was amazing.
He could build anything, fixanything, repair anything.
It was, I really admired that.
That was a, for me, that was avery masculine trait that I
(48:40):
admired in him.
And I actually wish I had moremale friends.
You still have those traits.
Like they seem to be dying out.
I don't know where they've gone.
So, love the Fixit.
It's great.
And, women are different to men,just think like, we're the
opposite, we're a mystery, we'redifferent to you, we're not the
same.
So what you would want, or whatyou would do, is not what she
(49:03):
would want or she would do.
So just understand, it's notthat anybody's right or wrong,
it's just that people aredifferent, no blame.
Um, and that, in a way, most ofthe time, the worst thing you
could do is when she has anissue or she's emoting about
something is to try to fix it.
That's going to make her evenmore upset, even more angry and
(49:26):
feel that you just do notunderstand what she's going
through.
Right?
So instead, this is where theneed to be in touch with your
own emotions and your body comesinto, into practice though.
Um, you know, the, the, the, thething to offer there is your
presence.
And again, what does that mean?
It means nonjudgmental.
(49:48):
Listening and being in your bodyand staying in the room and
being in your body and feelingwhat you're feeling and
containing it within your ownbody.
And that does require somepractice.
It requires you probably to bemeditating on a regular basis so
that you have the capacity tostill your mind.
And it requires capacity to bein your body and notice what's
(50:10):
going on in your body and toground yourself.
Um, and then things you can doare say like, thank you for
sharing.
Um, or to, or to say, or toreflect back.
So giving reflection shows thatyou're listening rather than
trying to think.
Cause if you're listening fromyour head, rather than from your
body, you're already going to begoing into the fixer mode.
(50:32):
So like, listen with the intent.
Not to have an answer but toreflect back.
I hear like, so I hear yousaying that your boss was really
annoying at work today.
Did I get it right?
So you reflect back what shesaid.
Another thing you can do is toask what do you need right now?
How can I support you?
(50:52):
Would you like a hug?
Right?
So you are offering and you areasking, what do you need right
now?
Because, um, my kids do thiswith me now'cause I taught'em to
do it.
Do you want me to just holdspace or do you want me to offer
advice?
Cause sometimes she might wantadvice, but giving it
unsolicited is probably going togo squiffy.
(51:13):
And then she can say, I wouldreally love you to just hold
space for me right now.
I would really love you to giveme a hug, whatever it is.
And you can also set a limit,you know, out of honor for
yourself because you don't haveto give unlimited presence if
you're, if you don't have thecapacity for it, boundaries,
(51:34):
it's also up to you to say, youknow what, I don't feel I have
the capacity for that right now.
Okay.
Or I can, you know, I can holdspace for you like, um, five
minutes and then I need to goand do something else, or can we
make a time to do that later?
I don't feel I have capacity.
And that's owning what's, what'sright for you.
(51:55):
Cause you don't want to get intoa situation where you're doing
something and you're resentingit, you know, but that's again,
self responsibility, knowingyourself, having boundaries is
also important.
James (52:07):
And this is, sorry, does that start with.
owning the space for yourself.
So putting aside time to go andperhaps meditate or to go and
dance and having that time asyour space.
Because I think sometimes from,from, from, from being a man,
(52:27):
sometimes it's hard to get intothe idea that, okay, I need to
give her space.
But it's also the idea that ifwe start to give ourselves space
and to strengthen our own space,we're able to Build that
capacity to give to a woman.
Shakti Sundari (52:45):
Definitely.
And, um, you know, one, onedifference I do see in men, a
lot of men, is that they do needtheir man cave.
And that means taking space foryourself to go and do your
hobbies, to go and meditate, togo and work out, to go and do
whatever it is, whatever it isyou need to show up as the best
version of yourself.
(53:06):
Right?
That's what you, you have toprioritize that and in any
relationship, both couples, Iwould say both people have to
prioritize.
I'm responsible for my physical,mental, emotional, spiritual
wellbeing.
You're responsible for yourstogether.
We come like when we've takencare of ourselves.
So we show up as the bestversion.
(53:29):
Um, and I think sometimes I wantto speak about the shadow that
women bring, because of coursewe have our shadows too.
And so women can come and theycan be needy and they can be
insecure and they can be clingyand they can be manipulative.
So these are some of thefeminine shadows that then show
up and they're like, Oh, I don'twant you to go to the gym.
Like, Oh, can't you just staywith me?
(53:51):
You know, and then actually ifyou're being in your integrity
as a man, it's important toactually not get manipulated and
actually have a boundary andactually say, Um, I hear that
you want to spend quality timewith me.
You know, that's great.
And I would like to spendquality time with you and have
this commitment to go to the gymevery day at 11 o'clock and I'm
(54:12):
going to hold that commitmentand it doesn't mean that I don't
love you, but this is mycommitment to me because I love
me too, you know, and itrequires you to be like that
strong.
Strong and integrity, speakingyour truth and valuing yourself.
And a woman will respect that.
And if she, if she begins tofind out that she can manipulate
(54:32):
you, you know, it might give hertemporary satisfaction, but
she's going to lose respect foryou.
James (54:39):
Yeah, I can, I can vouch for that.
And also, there's, when you'retalking about having space to
yourself, I think that's key,because I've noticed I'm there
in one of my values is freedom.
And so when I'm around peoplefor too long, contained in a
space.
I get very overwhelmed.
(55:00):
I, I get very, um, resentful,angry, so I have to take myself
away, whether that's a shortfive minute walk or it could be
go to a woodland or whatever itis, to allow myself to be in my
own, my own space so that I canprocess what's been going on.
(55:22):
And I think that's so important.
I remember a relationship I wasin and my partner stayed over
the whole weekend.
We were together the whole time.
And by the, um, Saturdayevening, I was like, just
starting to shake a little bit.
And I was like, I need to justgo for a minute.
Yeah.
But
it's been able to communicate that to your
(55:43):
partner.
In a
way that brings, um, trust and understanding.
Shakti Sundari (55:50):
Yes, so important.
Because there's nothing, again,there's nothing wrong with you
and your needs are important, asimportant as your partner's.
But the thing that people, thepart that most people miss out
is the communication part, likeyou said, which is, I know, or
I'm noticing, I'm beginning tofeel overwhelmed.
(56:13):
This is mine.
It's not yours.
You're not doing it to me, but Inotice I'm, and I need to take
some space.
Um, I'll be back in an hour.
So it's that part that is oftenmissing.
It's like expressing your needand then giving, like
communicating something toreassure.
I'll be back in an hour or I'mgoing on a business trip.
(56:34):
It's going to be reallyimportant for me to focus on my
work while I'm gone.
So I won't be texting you forthe next two days.
So she knows.
And then she can have that.
It's just having that sense ofconsistency and clarity and
integrity in your communication.
Like, if these things aren'tcommunicated with clarity, then
(56:54):
she's left feeling like, I don'tknow where I am.
Like, I don't feel safe.
I feel insecure, like what'shappening.
And like, she'll begin to getlike all kind of anxious and
activated.
And then if she's not self awareherself, she'll come back at you
with some like jab and then offyou go and you'll have an
argument.
Right.
All it needs for her nervoussystem to relax is for you to
(57:14):
really clearly just say like,this is, this is what's going to
happen.
It doesn't mean I don't loveyou.
I'll be in touch in a couple ofdays or in a week, like just
name it, frame it.
And then, and then be a man ofyour word.
And if you can't honor thatagreement, this is so important,
tell her and tell her why.
(57:36):
You know, otherwise trust getseroded.
So it's just like, as a man,you're there to hold the frame
and the frame is, is like, youknow, clarity, integrity,
consistency, reliability.
And that doesn't mean you haveto have like a big weight on
your shoulders.
It just means being responsibleand just sort of being clear.
And again, uh, facing your ownfear of rejection that might
(57:57):
come up in being that.
Because that that might be partof why you're not being clear.
It might be why you're being
that
avoidant and anxious attachment that kind of
you referenced a bit.
And then there is this thing ofmen, I think can get more
overwhelmed, um, sometimes andneed and need that space.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
Let's not stigmatize that.
(58:17):
And then another thing is pace.
There's so many things.
It's like often I think womenprocess stuff quicker.
I mean, we are all unique, butsometimes men need longer to
process things because being inthe emotional realm isn't their
natural hangout.
So it can take a man like Sosomething to be aware of in your
relationship is like, you mightneed five days to get to clarity
(58:40):
around something for yourself.
She might need half an hour.
And then she's like, thinkinglike, what's going on?
Like, well, you just need adifferent length of time to her
to get to clarity.
Yeah, yeah.
Nobody's right, nobody's wrong.
James (58:54):
So to finish off, can you, obviously I haven't got
anywhere near to the questions Iwanted to ask, so I'm hoping we
can have a part two.
Yeah, perfect.
Um, just to finish off, can youtell us what do you do and how
can people get in contact?
Shakti Sundari (59:11):
Okay, so, um, I'm a love coach.
I've got 20 years experienceteaching embodied awareness,
sexual and spiritual awakeningand personal development.
And I work one on one withpeople now to really get to the
root.
of challenges in your life,challenges in your relating and
(59:34):
your intimacy, um, but likegoing deep, not on a superficial
level and really seeing you as awhole person and whatever
challenge you're going throughis, is a gift and part of your
spiritual and personaldevelopment.
So that's the perspective thatwe take when you work with me.
James (59:51):
Perfect.
Thank you very much.
Shakti Sundari (59:54):
Oh, thank you so much.
I've loved it.
In this week's episode, we takea deep dive into why men
struggle with emotionalconnection.
We talk about how your deepestpain can actually unlock your
purpose, and the secret toconfidence and attraction has
nothing to do with chasing orproving yourself.
Welcome to Man (00:17):
A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:37):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (00:54):
Today I literally have my first woman on this podcast, and
it's Shakti Sundari.
How are you, Shakti?
Shakti Sundari (01:03):
I'm great, thank you.
I'm really, really excited.
I'm honoured to be your firstfemale guest.
It's a great honour.
James (01:12):
So.
The whole point of this episodeand what I'm thinking in the
whole of March is going to bebased on the topic of
relationships.
So, let's start off with, tellus a little bit about yourself.
Shakti Sundari (01:27):
Okay, so, um, my current iteration of who I am in
the world and what I'm showingup as is a love coach.
But basically for the last 20years, um, and a little bit
more, so 20 plus years, I'vebeen teaching different forms of
embodied awareness, likeconscious dance, yoga, and
tantra, and focusing onconscious relating or authentic
(01:52):
relating.
within that.
Um, before that I was, uh, inacademia and before that I
worked in business.
So it's kind of like, this islike my third career really in
terms of my life stages, butit's become my absolute,
absolute passion.
Um, this whole topic of loverelating and intimacy.
James (02:12):
So what actually got you into all this conscious dance
and, um, love and relationships?
Shakti Sundari (02:21):
Well, um, I guess in a nutshell, uh, the
conscious dance was somethingthat was just, I'm, I've always
loved to move.
I've always been very embodied.
I've been an athlete.
So that was something of me justpursuing a passion.
But what that did, because itwas a conscious dance practice,
which means bringing awarenessto what you're doing, rather
(02:41):
than just doing somethingautomatically, it began to.
Wake things up in me that Ihadn't been aware of until that
point.
And then in kind of in tandemwith that, I was in my second
marriage at the same time.
Um, I had children.
And then that marriage began toget rocky, kind of in tandem
(03:02):
with me for the first timeexploring what it is to be
conscious or aware in the body,and that marriage ended, and
also there was a lack ofintimacy at the end of that
marriage, um, and then I sort ofgot to the point where I
thought, right, the commondenominator here is me.
This is the second marriage.
(03:24):
I'm a single mom.
I've got two young children.
There's something here that Ineed to figure out about
relationships and about myself.
And, um, you know, I hadn't beenintimate with my husband for
four years.
And that, you know, sex intimacywas something that was really
important to me and meaningfulto me.
So it was kind of also in handin hand with that was like, how
(03:46):
do I make sense of my desire forsexual intimacy?
and healthy relationship.
And then the third part is, andhow do I integrate that with
being a more spiritual or a moreconscious being?
How do I bring all of thesethree different things together?
And that's, so I started offjust exploring for myself to
find meaning and to findhealing.
(04:08):
And then, you know, my mind wasjust blown open by all the
things that I discovered.
And I was like, Why did nobodytell me this?
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
You know.
James (04:18):
It's, it's almost like you've been on this, well, it
is, you've been on this path ofself discovery, of learning
about relationships, and in theend, finding a purpose.
Shakti Sundari (04:29):
Yes, exactly.
This is exactly how they say,you go from your karma to your
dharma.
You know, because I, Idiscovered that the root, and
this is the same for everybody,the root of all the issues or
problems or challenges ordifficulties that I was having
very much lay with, you know, myformative years, like my
(04:50):
childhood, the way that I wasparented, the family that I grew
up in, the dynamics of relatingthat were modeled, um, what love
meant in that family unit and inthe society that I was a part
of, and so, um, you know, that'skind of, the difficulties stem
from that to a large extent.
Um, so that was like my painbecame my gift, if you see what
(05:15):
I mean.
And that's, yeah.
James (05:18):
Yeah.
And I remember, I think it wasprobably two, three, four months
ago, I interviewed, um, one ofmy guests and he was talking
about how your biggest pain It'sall about, it's your purpose
because once you are able to diginto that pain, you are able to
(05:39):
find a way to overcome it andyou're able to help others to do
the same too.
Shakti Sundari (05:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
Totally.
That's, that's kind of a corebelief of mine and it's
something I actually teach.
Um, I call it the principle ofthe gift.
So it's like your deepestwounding, your deepest
challenge, the thing that youthink is the biggest fuck up in
your life.
is actually an invitation toyour greatness.
And I, you know, people can saythat, um, and just understand it
(06:06):
at a mind level, but I'veunderstood that on a lived
level.
I've come to know that is true.
So, yeah,
James (06:14):
it's, I can over last, I think it's been eight years,
2016.
Yeah.
Eight years.
And to be honest, Massive, uh,growth of spiritual and, uh,
personal development, and whatI'm noticing is that step by
step, I'm slowly figuring outwhat I'm meant to do, but it all
comes down to that idea of selfdiscovery and being able to step
(06:40):
into the worst parts ofourselves.
The shadows, but also, Isuppose, at the same time, it's
also accepting in the lightparts.
So, kind of having a wholebalance of everything, but at
very deep crutches of ourselves,that's what I believe is What
(07:00):
we're here, what we're meant toteach, what we're meant to
really go into, what we'resupposed to explore.
And yes, it's painful, and it'sterrifying, but it becomes
easier.
It becomes easier, and then itjust, yeah, it's one of those
things.
Shakti Sundari (07:15):
It does become easier, and I have to also say,
it's not like I ever set outwith the intention of like, Oh,
I'm going to teach Tantra.
I'm going to teach consciousrelating, like that was never
part of like a blueprint thatcame from the mind in terms of a
strategy.
You know, for me, it was verymuch, I would see something and
I just felt this.
(07:36):
This, like, with the consciousdance, which is how it all
started off, really, I just wentto a class, and I thought, I
fucking love this, I want toteach it.
And I just didn't think aboutit, it was just such a strong, I
need to teach this.
And I followed that impulse.
And then every other step, forme, was just I had an inner
impulse, like a calling or aknowing or a sense of like, yes,
(07:59):
inside my body, which told me tofollow it.
So it wasn't like a master planthat, you know, somebody had
engineered for me or I sort ofwrote down the steps like this
and then this and then this andthen this.
And it included.
You know, along the way, lots ofmoments where I really couldn't
see the wood for the trees, andI thought I was completely lost,
(08:19):
and I thought, you know, I wasat my lowest ebb, I was
hopeless, I was crying my eyesout, I was on the floor, like,
literally heartbroken manytimes, you know, so it involved
going through those deepest,darkest Um, sort of bottom, like
being at the real bottom of, ofeverything, you know, like going
through that many times as wellwithout understanding the
(08:42):
meaning of it, withoutunderstanding why.
And I even, I remember sayinglike, why is this happening to
me?
Why is this happening to me?
It doesn't seem fair.
I remember having that thoughtquite a few times.
It's not fair.
Why is this happening?
I've done all the right things.
Why is this still happening?
You know?
James (09:00):
Yeah, I can, I can relate to them in relationships, so
I've been through quite a fewrelationships, but each time
it's almost like a steppingstone.
I've gone on to the next, butkind of slightly leveled up, and
then again, and then again.
But I see people who go fromrelationship to relationship to
relationship, and from my ownperspective, it's kind of, I
(09:22):
feel as though when you come outof a relationship, my personal
opinion is that it's down to youto do the work.
In order that you don't have thesame happen again.
Shakti Sundari (09:33):
For sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And again, for me, that was kindof one of the biggest switches
that's taken place over allthese years of like, studying
and teaching and like, fuckingup.
Uh, and I really want to make,like, really clear to everyone,
like, I fucked up so many timesand now I just very happily own
it because I think it's like ateaching for everybody else that
we, we can't, you know, we'reimperfect, we're imperfect and
(09:55):
perfect.
But it's like the biggest switchfor me was going from thinking
it was everybody else's faultor, you know, it was, it's
because of this, but likepointing to something outside of
me.
The biggest shift has been likethose fingers of like, you know
what they say?
Like when you point your finger,like you've got four fingers
(10:16):
pointing back at you and then Ilike literally through the
process of repeating patternsthat were very painful and very
challenging, realizing, well, itcan't be just all about them.
There's got to be something herethat's about me and like taking
it all back.
So getting to the point where Ireally own everything in my
life.
I'm responsible for.
Everything in my life, I create.
(10:36):
Everything in my life, you know,it's up to me to choose and
determine and how I respond, howI react, how I think.
It's all up to me.
James (10:47):
So with regards to, so obviously this is towards men.
And what I was thinking withregards to this session today,
we could perhaps start to movethe switch and kind of navigate
how men can really step andstart to own.
Their own responsibilities, butalso to own themselves.
(11:10):
So, with regards to mengenerally, what are some of the
biggest challenges that men facewhen navigating today's fast
paced world?
Especially when there's so muchdisconnection.
Shakti Sundari (11:24):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it is a challenging
situation out there.
But again, you know, you can usethe word challenge or you can
use the word opportunity.
And I would prefer to see it asan opportunity.
Everything is shifting.
So society is moving at such afast pace.
There's all this technologyeverywhere.
(11:45):
The way that people meet andrelate has changed dramatically
in the last 10, 20 years, like,you know, so much has gone
online and yet we all knowthere's an epidemic of
loneliness.
particularly for men.
And from what I'm seeing, andthis isn't just my own personal
perspective, because I'm readingand listening to other podcasts
and, you know, really curious,there is this epidemic of
(12:08):
loneliness and men wanting toconnect, but not really, um, or
having having difficultyunderstanding how to make that
happen.
And, um, so I see that and Youknow, I can also see this as a
wonderful opportunity for all ofus to actually really kind of
inquire like what is it Iactually want and how do I make
(12:32):
that happen and seeing that theway the world is set up isn't
necessarily like there are somethings aren't so healthy about
that.
Um, and.
You know, that, that it starts,it starts with you and it starts
with making changes andcomplaining about the way things
are isn't gonna change it.
(12:52):
So it's gonna be up to you tofigure out, like, how do I
shift, how do I shift thisreality?
And shifting this reality startswith me and how I engage with
other people and how I engagewith life and how much I use
technology and how much I useporn.
And it requires some, like,asking yourself some really
hard, honest questions.
(13:13):
Because I think that it's veryeasy to avoid those hard
questions, um, and, and sort ofgo into being a victim.
And the hard questions are, youknow, basically, are you
avoiding your own pain?
Are you avoiding your ownloneliness?
Are you avoiding your own desirefor connection?
Are you using, um, superficialconnection?
(13:34):
Are you using dating apps?
Are you using porn to actuallytry and fulfill this need for
connection, but not reallymeeting that deeper need
underneath that.
You know, and, and then thatrequires becoming a little bit
vulnerable to admit what'sunderneath that desire and to
recognize that we all want toconnect.
(13:56):
It's like a human need.
It's a human desire and there'snothing shameful about that.
I think, um, there can be, uh,particularly for men, this sense
of like, I have to have it alltogether.
I have to know all the answers.
I can't show what might beperceived as a weakness.
Um, you know, and just like,just me speaking up recently
(14:21):
about wanting to date.
Everyone said to me, oh, that'sso courageous of you.
And I'm like, why is thatcourageous?
You know, it's my truth.
I would love to date somebody,but people see that as a
courageous thing to say.
Um, so it's quite interesting.
James (14:36):
Let's, actually, let's, now I've got the opportunity,
let's step into thevulnerability, because I can, I
can feel fear within inside me,and I, I can admit that I've
had, I've had in the past a pornproblem, and again, there's
still times when I do have aporn problem, but from my own
perspective, and I'm delving alittle bit deeper into this.
Yeah.
(14:57):
It is a sense, there's a disconnect to the, to the idea
of porn, and at the same timethere's this idea underneath
it's loneliness, but underneaththat, it can be a sense of lack
of love.
Shakti Sundari (15:13):
Yeah, okay, so, um, there's a few things I can
respond to there, so, um, Idon't want to shame anybody.
Right?
And I think shame is such astrong inhibitor of well being
and connection.
And it is an emotion thateverybody feels.
So, um, when I talk about porn,I know it's a big issue, but I
(15:36):
also don't want any manlistening to feel that I'm
trying to shame him.
I get the reasons behind whythat's appealing.
Um, and also men and women aredifferent in my, you know, in my
understanding, right?
And I also know from what I'vestudied and experienced that,
that kind of when you get intoan addictive relationship with
(15:57):
that, um, way of engaging.
It's really not healthy for yourmental, emotional, or spiritual
well being, and it's not goingto meet that need that you have
for connection.
So, the fear, like, fear issomething that's going to come
up when somebody kind of sayssomething, like I'm saying, that
might feel a bit confronting.
(16:18):
Because then the invitation is,you know, what am I really
looking for?
And that's when thevulnerability comes, because
it's like, underneath that,there's like, oh, I'd really
just love To have someone acceptme for who I am.
I'd really love to have somebodylisten to, to me.
I'd really love to have somebodycare about me.
I'd really love some physicaltouch.
(16:39):
I'd really love to express mysexuality.
And I don't know how to makethat happen with real people,
you know, so there's, there is avulnerability there.
There's the, uh, that I, that Iperceive, um, and that is really
beautiful because it creates anopening.
It creates a potential for, um,for a more honest way of being
(17:04):
with yourself and creates aninvitation to change something
and to take some courageoussteps.
Um, and I think it's importantfor us to exploring, well, how
do I connect with people face toface, how I do I connect with
people in the flesh, rather thanonline, you know, how do I do
it, and opening up to beginningto explore that and knowing that
(17:26):
you will feel uncomfortable.
James (17:29):
So in the short terms, obviously, how can men start to
feel connected when they perhapsdon't have anybody around them
to feel connected?
So how can they go about andexplore that?
Shakti Sundari (17:44):
Okay, so, um, the first thing I would say to
that is that if you're lookingfor all of this connection
outside of you, there's anelement of that that I would say
is unhealthy.
And disempowered so I'm justgoing to be really straight and
(18:08):
will lead to you probably havinga Um, less successful
relationships because you'relooking to get something from,
assuming you're heterosexual,but you know, you could be any,
any, um, you know, sexuality,but if I'm assuming you're a
heterosexual, then you'relooking to get something from a
(18:28):
woman rather than show up inyour wholeness, in your
fullness.
In your self care, in your selflove, in your I'm already
worthy, to connect with anotherwoman who is the same as that.
If you're looking to take, ifyou're looking to get, to
fulfill, like, to fill somethingthat's empty inside you, it's
(18:51):
going to create a dysfunctionaldynamic.
So the first part is torecognize what you need, and to
give that to yourself, and tobegin to cultivate a sense of
worthiness.
Well being, self love, self carefor yourself.
That's the most important thing.
And I would say the same to awoman, actually.
(19:12):
Because, you know, you mightthink, um, like, one's better
than the other, or one's higheror lower.
Everybody I speak to, reallyfundamentally, like, there are
differences between men andwomen.
But ultimately, we all have thesame shadows.
We all have the same light.
We all have the same potential.
We all have the same issues.
And we all long for connectionand love.
(19:33):
You know, ultimately.
But it starts with self care,self love, self worth.
So, so, like if you're in asituation where you don't feel
good about yourself.
What can you do to begin tobuild your confidence?
What can you do to begin to takecare of your body?
Um, what can you do to begin tocultivate a better mental state?
(19:54):
So things like meditation,things like working out, things
like doing activities that youreally enjoy, pursuing a hobby
that, that makes you feelaccomplished.
So you begin to develop this foryourself.
Um, and then when you go intoconnection, you know, there's
less anxiety, there's less need,there's less grabbing, less
(20:15):
trying to get something.
And then the sexuality is theother part of that because I
don't want to deny that and Ilike to be very open about this
because it's a really importantpart of our being human is our
sexuality.
Um, and it's not to repress ordeny that aspect of yourself,
but it is to understand thatyour sexual energy and your
sexual desire are yours.
(20:35):
And you are responsible forthem.
And again, not to, um, makesomebody else responsible for
your sexual, uh, well being.
There are many ways that a mancan learn to channel his sexual
energy and self pleasure, forexample, and, and begin to fill
his whole body with, with thatenergy so that he feels more
(20:56):
empowered, more alive, morevirile, um, more healthy, um,
you know, they're, they're Thereare ways to do that.
I don't want to go into too muchdepth now, but I hope that
answers your question.
James (21:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, because I noticed when, whenyou were continually watching
porn, there's this idea that youalmost treat women as a piece of
meat.
And there's this idea that youget, men go out.
are nights out for the simplereason to go into, as people
say, get laid.
Yeah.
(21:27):
And that's not really I suppose from doing a lot of
personal and spiritual growth,I've come to learn that it's, it
becomes very unhealthy.
And it's, it's that idea thatyou're just going out for a
simple thing, not even toconnect to that person.
You've got, you've got one goalin mind.
(21:49):
And But again, I think from aman's perspective, it's almost,
it's almost ingrained into us ina little, in a little bit from
societies, obviously getting alittle bit more stricter on
things like porn, but it's so,it's so, it's so big and so fast
(22:11):
and it's so almost in your face.
Yeah.
And then there's the idea that when you start talking
about porn with friends orfamily, uh, or in schools, it's
almost a taboo subject.
So you can't even, it's the ideaof shame, keeping it to
yourself.
Shakti Sundari (22:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, that's that's the thingand that's what they're banking
on because I just want tohighlight like, you know, in a
way, just think about it fromthe highest perspective in terms
of who's making money out ofthis, like, I don't know the
exact figures, but it's one ofthe biggest, if not the biggest
industry, they're making so muchmoney out of men's addiction to
(22:50):
it.
And like you say, it's, um, sothink of yourself like being
caught up in that energeticallyand being exploited.
It's.
Like your desire is beingexploited and you're not really
finding a place of fulfillmentand you probably end up feeling
shit afterwards as well becausethen you probably start judging
yourself for what has happened,right?
(23:12):
So it's not a healthy dynamicfor you.
And the thing about theobjectification as well, that is
so true.
And of course, um, it's whatthen gets in the way of a real
connection because Um, from awoman's perspective, like, a
woman yearns for a man'spresence.
(23:33):
A woman yearns to be seen by herpartner and to be seen for who
she is, not to be seen as asexual object.
A woman will open.
This is the irony that I reallywish men would get, it's like a
woman will open to a mansexually if she feels seen,
(23:54):
which means her whole self, notjust like a means to an end, and
appreciated and respected andcared for, safe.
So seen and safe.
If a woman feels seen and safe.
She is way more likely to opensexually, so you have to
understand we are opposite, weare different, it's kind of the
(24:16):
other way around.
And, um, the more, in general,the more that a man approaches a
woman with that, if it's onlycoming, like, with the sexual
intention, we can feel it, it'sobvious.
And it's, it's like walls willgo up and then you wonder why
you're not connecting.
(24:37):
Well, that's why if you insteadreign that energy in and realize
that it is yours and you canstill have the energy in your
body, but you're not liketransmitting it out and you see
with and basically bring thatenergy into your heart.
Then you begin to understand andrealize like, oh, this is a
(24:57):
human being.
This is another soul.
This is another person who hasissues like I have.
This is somebody who might bevery sensitive.
Like you begin to see them as awhole person.
And you respect them just withcuriosity, and not with a very
blunt objective, they are farmore likely to be open to
(25:18):
talking to you.
Because women are verysensitive, we can feel these
things intuitively in our field.
So if a stranger starts talkingto me, and I can kind of feel
like he's only wants one thing,I'm not going to want to talk to
him.
If he starts talking to me withgenuine curiosity and genuine
interest in who I am, My guardwill slowly come down and I'm
(25:40):
sensing all the time.
Is he safe?
Is he safe?
Is he safe?
Does he just want one thing?
Is he safe?
Is he safe?
And the more safe I feel themore I will respond by relaxing
my guard and opening and givingyou what you want And it's not
like a conscious thing.
But what what men crave isfeminine energy, which is
playfulness Joy, flirtation,happiness, expression, um,
(26:06):
laughter, like warmth, love,connection.
That's what men crave from thefeminine.
And we can only be in that if wefeel safe and if we feel seen
and respected.
So it's, it's kind of likeironically what everyone's doing
is getting in their own way.
James (26:22):
So, what other challenges do men face in relationships,
but especially in a world where.
Men's masculinity is beingredefined.
Shakti Sundari (26:34):
Right.
Um, can you say the questionagain one more time, please?
James (26:38):
So, we've obviously mentioned about porn and some
other things.
So what other challenges do menface in a world where
masculinity is changing on sucha big, big way?
Shakti Sundari (26:53):
Right.
So, the fact that, that, um,masculine identity is changing
is a good thing.
Um, it's a bit destabilizing andI can see the effect of that
destabilization for men aroundthe world at the moment.
And it seems to be creating alot of polarity.
So in the one hand, you have menkind of going into the incel
(27:16):
extreme of hating women andblaming women and staying really
stuck in a very resentful,angry, victim consciousness,
which, um, is, I find sad andYou know, because underneath
that is a lot of pain, is a lotof pain and grief and loneliness
and a sense of stuckness and notknowing how to get out of it.
(27:39):
Um, and on the other hand, thenthere's this question.
It's like, Oh, women want me tobe more feminine or to be more
soft or to be moreunderstanding, but then they
don't like it when I'm too soft.
So like, what else, what thefuck am I supposed to do?
I don't know.
I don't know.
What, what am I supposed to dothen?
So I really get that.
Um, um, and the other thing Iwant to say is it's also really
(28:01):
good that the sort of thepatriarchal paradigm that has
dominated for so long isshifting.
You know, because the way I seeit, we're moving towards a world
where there is ultimately, itmight not look like it, more
love, more understanding, andmore respect and honoring
between men and women, where wereally see, like, you are my
(28:22):
brother.
You are my sister.
We're not here to fight eachother.
We're here to co create abeautiful world together.
We're here to co createbeautiful relationships
together.
So that's the potential.
It's happening and that's whatwe're moving towards more and
more and more.
We're not there as a wholesociety yet.
Um, it does require inner workand it does require
(28:45):
contemplation and it doesrequire getting vulnerable and
beginning to do things like, um,looking for role models.
Who do you see in the world?
Who is a strong role model of ahealthy masculine.
So the thing with patriarchy isthat, um, it basically is a
shadow expression of thepositive forms of masculinity.
(29:08):
So being leading.
Living on purpose, being driven.
These are all great qualitiesthat from what I hear, women
desiring men, we want you tostep up.
We want you to take the lead.
We want you to, um, feel a senseof honor to protect those that
you care about, you know, theseare qualities that are very
(29:30):
positive.
But what's happened in thepatriarchal world is it's gotten
out of balance and only theshadow forms are kind of like if
you look at the primary maleleaders in the world right now,
a lot of them that they're kindof is so out of balance because
they have lost connection withtheir feminine qualities as
well.
So it's a bit of rebalancingthat needs to happen between.
(29:51):
So when I talk about thefeminine, what I mean is your
body.
Uh, your emotions and yoursexuality and for a lot of men
there's a disconnect or a cutoffbetween those aspects of your
being and the more masculineaspects such as your mind and
your willpower, for example, andyour sort of your drive.
Um, so going to men's groups,looking for role models, doing
(30:15):
the inner work to explore whatshaped you to be the man that
you are, you know, understandingthat the way you've been
parented and your culture andyour society have shaped you.
And I think there does need tobe some inquiry around toxic
masculinity.
Um, some people don't like thatphrase, but like, what does that
(30:36):
mean?
And where can I take ownershipand how can I step up so that
women do feel safe in the world?
How can I call my brothers outwhen I see them behaving in a
way that I know is going to behurtful or damaging to a woman?
And how can I cultivate honorand love for myself so that I am
willing to stand up and bedifferent?
(30:57):
Because I, I do think it doestake a lot of courage.
You know, there can be this sortof buddy mentality or the pack
mentality for men.
Like I've got, just to say, I'vegot a son and a daughter, so
I've seen them grow up.
They're in their early twentiesnow.
My son is an athlete, so he wasalways with a bunch of male
athletes.
And, you know, there is thatlocker room talk that happens.
(31:19):
So how do you, in thatenvironment, have the strength
of character, which is verymasculine, to, to stand in your
truth?
You know, integrity is a verymasculine quality to be in your
integrity and say, actually,guys, I really don't like the
way that you're talking about.
So, and so right there, youknow, it's not respectful.
How do you do that withoutbecoming so rigid that, you
(31:43):
know, that that's kind of beentipping into a shadow.
But those are some of the thingsI would, I would say that I
would highlight.
James (31:51):
So one thing, one thing I love to do, I love to do
conscious dance, like yourself,and what I noticed, I went to,
um, a dance a weekend on Sunday,and there was a girl that I
admired on the dance floor, butwhat I kind of noticed was that
it wasn't necessarily me.
The woman herself, it was someof that aspect, so there was the
(32:14):
aspect of beauty, the aspect ofcourage, aspect of, uh, flow,
and, uh, yeah, them kind ofaspects.
So, sometimes I feel as though Ialmost project those things,
them positive aspects of myselfonto this other person.
Which gives you that idea that,okay, I like this woman.
(32:35):
So then I was allowing myself,in that dance, to own those
parts, to own that inner beauty,to own the courage, to own the
elegance, and allow this, theseaspects to really change how I
was dancing.
And so I was able to nicely, Iwas starting to delve a little
(32:56):
bit deeper into the divinemasculine and divine feminine
and allowing both parts to syncas I danced, which is quite a
profound experience because youcould see the difference.
So the divine feminine, you'remore flowy, you're slower,
you're, it's kind of theelegance.
(33:17):
Whereas in the Divine Masculine,it's a lot more, a lot more
faster paced.
It's kind of like a bit moreerratic.
There was a sense of, um,allowing that masculine energy
of tribal music to really,really come out.
And I think dance, Is a greatway to explore these male, these
(33:40):
masculine and feminine traitsand to explore yourself as a
person.
Shakti Sundari (33:47):
For sure.
I mean, you know, I'm a dancerand it's like my absolute
passion.
So I'm dancing all the time andgoing to things like static
dance and five rhythms, whichare like moving meditation
practices.
And you're right.
Um, and I really, so there's twothings that I would draw from
what you've just said.
So the first thing that you saidwas about projection and that's
a really important point thatyou've made.
(34:07):
Which is that we tend to projectonto other people or onto our
partners both the qualities thatwe desire um And the qualities
that we hate so we tend toproject them onto other people.
Um, and Exactly that really whatthat is is those people are
mirroring back to us I desire tobe that, which means it's
(34:29):
already within you somewhere.
And I reject that part of me,which is when you, when you kind
of judge and hate on people,it's actually, you're rejecting
something that's, that's activewithin you.
Right.
So being aware of what you'reprojecting is really helpful for
healthy relating.
Then the other part is yourbody.
So And this is something that'sso important for men because,
(34:50):
yeah, you tend to be more inyour heads.
And one of the key things that'sgoing to help you connect better
with yourself, and then withothers, and with women, is to be
more embodied and to begin tocultivate that balance of body
and mind as one.
Which is like, if you want toshorthand it, it's like Feminine
and masculine as one.
(35:11):
And then the final part that yousaid about, you know, like
dancing, you're feminine anddancing, you're masculine.
And like, what does it like tohave them together?
I love that.
I do that myself.
So sometimes, you know, I feellonely.
Sometimes I feel horny.
Um, so when I go dancing, Iimagine myself dancing with my
inner masculine.
And like, I imagine us makinglove inside my body while I'm
(35:33):
dancing.
So that I'm not, like, hookingonto the men in the space to get
that from them.
I create it for myself.
And then, you know what theinteresting thing is?
I remember this so clearly.
I remember doing this one day.
I went to the five rhythms and Iwas like dancing with my inner
masculine and I was justbasically then so complete
(35:53):
because there wasn't anemptiness.
There wasn't a void.
There wasn't a need.
There wasn't a looking like, Oh,where are the good looking men
in the space?
I was like, so in myself andlike with myself.
And then I had never had so manygood looking, gorgeous men come
up and dance with me as on thatnight that I was.
It like fully within my ownfullness and juiciness and inner
(36:17):
making love.
It was just really, reallyinteresting to observe that
happening.
So I can imagine it would, ofcourse, work the other way
around as well.
If you're not like, you know,where's all the hot girls and
you're
like
the hotness with yourself and having a really
great dance that it's going tobe more attractive to then, you
(36:38):
know, it's kind of like theopposite to what people are
doing.
Like we said before.
James (36:42):
It's again, it's about being, being in your own frame.
So rather than projecting yourenergy out to that person or a
person over there, it's bringingyour energy back.
And I think dance is probably,for me, from my own personal
perspective, dance has helped meto go from when I first started
conscious dance three, threeyears ago, being in my head.
(37:06):
To literally now, whenever Idance, it probably takes me two
or three songs to get into mybody.
And then, it's just allowing,then the body almost directs
what, it kind of directs what,where, basically, yeah.
It directs where you're going.
It flows.
And there's this idea that, um,You might feel angry, or you
(37:30):
might feel sad, or you mightfeel grief, and it's an
opportunity to connect andaccept these emotions.
Shakti Sundari (37:38):
Mm hmm.
Yes.
And, yeah.
Sorry, sorry I interrupted you.
Go on.
Go on,
James (37:42):
carry on.
Shakti Sundari (37:43):
I just got excited.
It's just such a good way tomove energy, because emotion is
energy, right?
And if we don't allow ourselvesTo acknowledge any emotion and
repress it, which men do morethan women, they kind of like,
Oh, I can't show emotion, likekeep it inside.
(38:03):
I want to tell you that thatemotion is going to stay in your
physical body.
It will stay in your tissues.
It will stay in your organs.
It will be here and it will, um,shut you down.
So you'll be less.
able to feel.
Less able to feel means lessable to connect, means less able
to be intimate.
(38:25):
Um, because like repressingemotion shuts, shuts everything
down in your system.
So then that's again why somepeople then need more extreme
experiences to feel anythingbecause there's, there's like
such a contraction.
And the body as a result.
So dance and any other dancemight not be for everybody,
(38:46):
though.
Try it once, guys.
It could be some other form ofconscious movement, right?
It's a wonderful way to justrelease emotion with no story.
Like you don't need to go intosome big, like psychoanalytical
thing about all I'm feelingthis.
And that's because my mom didthis to me when I was five.
You know, you can just just moveand the energy moves.
and after two hours of lettingloose.
(39:09):
You'll end up in a completelydifferent space where your mind
is clear, your body feels great,the energy in your system has
moved and everything's just morerelaxed.
Everything's just more relaxedand chilled out and like, oh,
and from that place, you know,then again, you're much more
available for a healthy level ofconnection with yourself and
(39:31):
then with other people.
I mean,
James (39:34):
you can, I do notice it when I'm, when I'm in my own
frame dancing on the dancefloor.
When you are literally havingfun and just being you and not
worrying about anybody else, youwill notice women looking at
you.
Oh, of course, and it's becauseI think it's, it's nothing to do
(39:55):
with, you're not projecting out.
You project, you're bringingyourself, you're bringing
yourself in and there's thatfeel and you, you are being you
on the dance floor and it's, andit is a very profound
experience.
Shakti Sundari (40:08):
That is the key to so much.
And, um, thank you for bringingthat up.
So I have a friend who runsecstatic events.
ecstatic dance events in Londonand their, the name of their,
their company is URUBU, uh,which is the acronym U R U B U,
(40:29):
because there's nothing morebeautiful and there's nothing
more attractive than a personwho is being authentically
themselves, nothing.
And we feel safe with someonewho's themselves.
You know as well and it's reallyattractive and because again
like speaking from personalexperience and having worked
with clients for so many Yearsone on one and in groups as well
(40:49):
Like the biggest thing is thatwe are taught as children to be
inauthentic And I don't mean inthe sense that your parents are
saying.
Oh, you know, you should beinauthentic but basically what
that means is because we had todo certain things as young
children to survive and to Um,and it's not because someone's
deliberately trying to make usfeel safe and to be loved.
(41:10):
We began to bend ourselves outof shape from our original
innocent nature to fit into thefamily structure or to fit into
the school structure.
So certain things that we usedto do like quite innocently,
like we learned not to dobecause it maybe wasn't safe
because maybe we'd get a slap.
Maybe we'd be told off.
Maybe everyone would take thepiss out of us and we'd like
(41:31):
feel really hurt.
So we stopped being ourauthentic selves and it's not
because someone's deliberatelyTrying to do that, but it's just
what happens.
So there's like this false selfthat then gets overlaid onto who
we really are.
And for me, the whole spiritualawakening journey has been
actually like, it's kind ofironic, but it's like taking all
(41:51):
those layers back off again toreveal like, who am I really?
Like, what is my essence?
And having the courage and theconfidence to just be true to
who I actually am without selfconsciousness, without fear of
judgment.
And I have been doing this foryears, so it's not like this was
(42:14):
easy at the start, I've got tobe honest.
But now it's second nature.
And then two things happen.
You become very inspiring toother people, just innately
without having to try.
Um, and you become moreattractive.
And then also you line yourselfup with the right people for
you.
Because most of the time, you'rebending yourself out of shape to
(42:35):
try and fit with somebody whereyou're just not aligned.
Like, no blame or judgmentneeded, but like, it's the best
way to get into a relationshipwith the right person is just to
be authentically yourself andnot try to please them, which
men and women do, both, peoplepleasing, you know.
Or, um, hide the bits thatyou're ashamed of, because
(42:57):
you're scared they won't likeyou.
Um, or not speak your truth,again, because you've learnt
that it's safer not to.
All these things are verydamaging to healthy connection,
so.
I
James (43:08):
Why do men.
struggle to connect so deeplyemotionally?
Shakti Sundari (43:13):
I think there are several reasons.
Um, I do think there aredifferences.
Um, I think the orientation inthe masculine is more to action,
simplicity, um, thinking, um,solving problems.
And I think there's like, um,you know, historic reasons for
(43:37):
that in terms of survival, likeright back to cavemen and
hunting and stuff.
You have to be focused.
to get the job done.
And it wasn't safe to feel youremotions.
If you're out there and a lion'schasing you, you know, you don't
have time to think about that.
You've got to kill the fuckinglion.
Right.
So that's when turning off theemotions was helpful for our
evolution.
So I think there's a part ofthat in, in the equation.
(44:00):
Right.
But then there's the wholesocialization part, which of
course, you know, that we'vealready spoken about the model
that it's not manly to haveemotions.
It's not manly to cry.
And sadly, there are peoplestill in society, teachers and
parents and leaders who'vemodelled that and reinforced
that by the way that they'veparented.
So that's also part of theissue.
(44:23):
And then I think that there's afear of appearing to be weak.
And being rejected for that.
And again, I think other men insome circles may have encouraged
that, you know, like you callother guys, like you're a pussy,
you're a wuss, like, you know,you use those it's quite
interesting because men usewords that refer to feminine
(44:47):
parts to say you're weak.
In other words, saying.
Because the feminine is weak.
You're weak like pussy, right?
Actually, pussies give birth.
So like, come on guys, that'snot weak.
I've given birth twice.
Right.
Um, but, but it's kind of,again, what, what all that
(45:10):
conditioning has taught you isthe wrong way around because
it's really fucking courageous.
To own and feel your emotionwithout making anyone else to
blame for it and to holdyourself in that.
That's really strong, so it'snot weak.
(45:33):
It's actually more weak torepress and to deny out of fear
of rejection or fear ofappearing to be something.
That's more weak.
It's kind of, again, it's anirony.
It takes a lot of courage.
To feel what you really feel andto own that and to allow
yourself to go into that.
(45:54):
And it is necessary because whathappens a lot in dynamics with
men and women is that if a manhasn't done this inner work to
begin to become more comfortablewith his emotions and his body,
because body and emotions gohand in hand, when his woman
gets emotional, he won't be ableto tolerate it.
He will feel so anxious and souncomfortable in her presence
(46:18):
that he will get defensive.
Or he will shut her down.
Or he will say something nasty.
Um, or he'll just have to leavethe room.
Um, because he hasn't done thatinner work yet.
Basically, the more a man iscomfortable with his own
emotions, the more present hecan stay to his woman when she
is in her emotions.
(46:39):
and being present doesn't meanthat you accept any kind of
abuse.
It doesn't mean that you accept,you know, disrespectful
behavior.
It just means that if a woman iscrying or upset or angry or
frustrated or any emotion, andlike that's part of being
feminine is really feelingeverything, um, that you're able
to just stand there and breathe.
(47:02):
Feel yourself really rooted andgrounded in your body and in,
you know, on the earth.
And even if there is a bit ofreaction that's happening to not
feel overwhelmed and afraid ofit, which is what could be a
common thing that happens and tojust stay there.
And that is like one of thegreatest gifts a man can give a
woman is, is his presence.
(47:23):
That is like, you don't need todo anything.
You don't, you just need to bethere and to breathe and to be,
I see you, I hear you, Iunderstand.
Gosh, I feel that, you know, Iget how that must feel for you.
I couldn't, you know.
And that is going to soothe herdown, like, and just soften her.
She's going to love you forever.
(47:45):
If you develop that capacity.
James (47:49):
I think from a men's perspective, we've been so
ingrained into fixing things.
So if we've got an issue, downin the garage, we'll go and fix
it.
If we've got an issue in ahouse, like a door, we'll go and
fix it.
But, you know.
Women want to be heard, so howcan men shift that mindset from
(48:12):
wanting to fix it, to beingpresent, to listening, to
hearing what she says?
Shakti Sundari (48:19):
Yeah, um, it's such a big one this, um, thank
you for bringing it up, and Ialso want to say, I love a man
who can fix things.
I love it.
I, like, my dad was amazing.
He could build anything, fixanything, repair anything.
It was, I really admired that.
That was a, for me, that was avery masculine trait that I
(48:40):
admired in him.
And I actually wish I had moremale friends.
You still have those traits.
Like they seem to be dying out.
I don't know where they've gone.
So, love the Fixit.
It's great.
And, women are different to men,just think like, we're the
opposite, we're a mystery, we'redifferent to you, we're not the
same.
So what you would want, or whatyou would do, is not what she
(49:03):
would want or she would do.
So just understand, it's notthat anybody's right or wrong,
it's just that people aredifferent, no blame.
Um, and that, in a way, most ofthe time, the worst thing you
could do is when she has anissue or she's emoting about
something is to try to fix it.
That's going to make her evenmore upset, even more angry and
(49:26):
feel that you just do notunderstand what she's going
through.
Right?
So instead, this is where theneed to be in touch with your
own emotions and your body comesinto, into practice though.
Um, you know, the, the, the, thething to offer there is your
presence.
And again, what does that mean?
It means nonjudgmental.
(49:48):
Listening and being in your bodyand staying in the room and
being in your body and feelingwhat you're feeling and
containing it within your ownbody.
And that does require somepractice.
It requires you probably to bemeditating on a regular basis so
that you have the capacity tostill your mind.
And it requires capacity to bein your body and notice what's
(50:10):
going on in your body and toground yourself.
Um, and then things you can doare say like, thank you for
sharing.
Um, or to, or to say, or toreflect back.
So giving reflection shows thatyou're listening rather than
trying to think.
Cause if you're listening fromyour head, rather than from your
body, you're already going to begoing into the fixer mode.
(50:32):
So like, listen with the intent.
Not to have an answer but toreflect back.
I hear like, so I hear yousaying that your boss was really
annoying at work today.
Did I get it right?
So you reflect back what shesaid.
Another thing you can do is toask what do you need right now?
How can I support you?
(50:52):
Would you like a hug?
Right?
So you are offering and you areasking, what do you need right
now?
Because, um, my kids do thiswith me now'cause I taught'em to
do it.
Do you want me to just holdspace or do you want me to offer
advice?
Cause sometimes she might wantadvice, but giving it
unsolicited is probably going togo squiffy.
(51:13):
And then she can say, I wouldreally love you to just hold
space for me right now.
I would really love you to giveme a hug, whatever it is.
And you can also set a limit,you know, out of honor for
yourself because you don't haveto give unlimited presence if
you're, if you don't have thecapacity for it, boundaries,
(51:34):
it's also up to you to say, youknow what, I don't feel I have
the capacity for that right now.
Okay.
Or I can, you know, I can holdspace for you like, um, five
minutes and then I need to goand do something else, or can we
make a time to do that later?
I don't feel I have capacity.
And that's owning what's, what'sright for you.
(51:55):
Cause you don't want to get intoa situation where you're doing
something and you're resentingit, you know, but that's again,
self responsibility, knowingyourself, having boundaries is
also important.
James (52:07):
And this is, sorry, does that start with.
owning the space for yourself.
So putting aside time to go andperhaps meditate or to go and
dance and having that time asyour space.
Because I think sometimes from,from, from, from being a man,
(52:27):
sometimes it's hard to get intothe idea that, okay, I need to
give her space.
But it's also the idea that ifwe start to give ourselves space
and to strengthen our own space,we're able to Build that
capacity to give to a woman.
Shakti Sundari (52:45):
Definitely.
And, um, you know, one, onedifference I do see in men, a
lot of men, is that they do needtheir man cave.
And that means taking space foryourself to go and do your
hobbies, to go and meditate, togo and work out, to go and do
whatever it is, whatever it isyou need to show up as the best
version of yourself.
(53:06):
Right?
That's what you, you have toprioritize that and in any
relationship, both couples, Iwould say both people have to
prioritize.
I'm responsible for my physical,mental, emotional, spiritual
wellbeing.
You're responsible for yourstogether.
We come like when we've takencare of ourselves.
So we show up as the bestversion.
(53:29):
Um, and I think sometimes I wantto speak about the shadow that
women bring, because of coursewe have our shadows too.
And so women can come and theycan be needy and they can be
insecure and they can be clingyand they can be manipulative.
So these are some of thefeminine shadows that then show
up and they're like, Oh, I don'twant you to go to the gym.
Like, Oh, can't you just staywith me?
(53:51):
You know, and then actually ifyou're being in your integrity
as a man, it's important toactually not get manipulated and
actually have a boundary andactually say, Um, I hear that
you want to spend quality timewith me.
You know, that's great.
And I would like to spendquality time with you and have
this commitment to go to the gymevery day at 11 o'clock and I'm
(54:12):
going to hold that commitmentand it doesn't mean that I don't
love you, but this is mycommitment to me because I love
me too, you know, and itrequires you to be like that
strong.
Strong and integrity, speakingyour truth and valuing yourself.
And a woman will respect that.
And if she, if she begins tofind out that she can manipulate
(54:32):
you, you know, it might give hertemporary satisfaction, but
she's going to lose respect foryou.
James (54:39):
Yeah, I can, I can vouch for that.
And also, there's, when you'retalking about having space to
yourself, I think that's key,because I've noticed I'm there
in one of my values is freedom.
And so when I'm around peoplefor too long, contained in a
space.
I get very overwhelmed.
(55:00):
I, I get very, um, resentful,angry, so I have to take myself
away, whether that's a shortfive minute walk or it could be
go to a woodland or whatever itis, to allow myself to be in my
own, my own space so that I canprocess what's been going on.
(55:22):
And I think that's so important.
I remember a relationship I wasin and my partner stayed over
the whole weekend.
We were together the whole time.
And by the, um, Saturdayevening, I was like, just
starting to shake a little bit.
And I was like, I need to justgo for a minute.
Yeah.
But
it's been able to communicate that to your
(55:43):
partner.
In a
way that brings, um, trust and understanding.
Shakti Sundari (55:50):
Yes, so important.
Because there's nothing, again,there's nothing wrong with you
and your needs are important, asimportant as your partner's.
But the thing that people, thepart that most people miss out
is the communication part, likeyou said, which is, I know, or
I'm noticing, I'm beginning tofeel overwhelmed.
(56:13):
This is mine.
It's not yours.
You're not doing it to me, but Inotice I'm, and I need to take
some space.
Um, I'll be back in an hour.
So it's that part that is oftenmissing.
It's like expressing your needand then giving, like
communicating something toreassure.
I'll be back in an hour or I'mgoing on a business trip.
(56:34):
It's going to be reallyimportant for me to focus on my
work while I'm gone.
So I won't be texting you forthe next two days.
So she knows.
And then she can have that.
It's just having that sense ofconsistency and clarity and
integrity in your communication.
Like, if these things aren'tcommunicated with clarity, then
(56:54):
she's left feeling like, I don'tknow where I am.
Like, I don't feel safe.
I feel insecure, like what'shappening.
And like, she'll begin to getlike all kind of anxious and
activated.
And then if she's not self awareherself, she'll come back at you
with some like jab and then offyou go and you'll have an
argument.
Right.
All it needs for her nervoussystem to relax is for you to
(57:14):
really clearly just say like,this is, this is what's going to
happen.
It doesn't mean I don't loveyou.
I'll be in touch in a couple ofdays or in a week, like just
name it, frame it.
And then, and then be a man ofyour word.
And if you can't honor thatagreement, this is so important,
tell her and tell her why.
(57:36):
You know, otherwise trust getseroded.
So it's just like, as a man,you're there to hold the frame
and the frame is, is like, youknow, clarity, integrity,
consistency, reliability.
And that doesn't mean you haveto have like a big weight on
your shoulders.
It just means being responsibleand just sort of being clear.
And again, uh, facing your ownfear of rejection that might
(57:57):
come up in being that.
Because that that might be partof why you're not being clear.
It might be why you're being
that
avoidant and anxious attachment that kind of
you referenced a bit.
And then there is this thing ofmen, I think can get more
overwhelmed, um, sometimes andneed and need that space.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
Let's not stigmatize that.
(58:17):
And then another thing is pace.
There's so many things.
It's like often I think womenprocess stuff quicker.
I mean, we are all unique, butsometimes men need longer to
process things because being inthe emotional realm isn't their
natural hangout.
So it can take a man like Sosomething to be aware of in your
relationship is like, you mightneed five days to get to clarity
(58:40):
around something for yourself.
She might need half an hour.
And then she's like, thinkinglike, what's going on?
Like, well, you just need adifferent length of time to her
to get to clarity.
Yeah, yeah.
Nobody's right, nobody's wrong.
James (58:54):
So to finish off, can you, obviously I haven't got
anywhere near to the questions Iwanted to ask, so I'm hoping we
can have a part two.
Yeah, perfect.
Um, just to finish off, can youtell us what do you do and how
can people get in contact?
Shakti Sundari (59:11):
Okay, so, um, I'm a love coach.
I've got 20 years experienceteaching embodied awareness,
sexual and spiritual awakeningand personal development.
And I work one on one withpeople now to really get to the
root.
of challenges in your life,challenges in your relating and
(59:34):
your intimacy, um, but likegoing deep, not on a superficial
level and really seeing you as awhole person and whatever
challenge you're going throughis, is a gift and part of your
spiritual and personaldevelopment.
So that's the perspective thatwe take when you work with me.
James (59:51):
Perfect.
Thank you very much.
Shakti Sundari (59:54):
Oh, thank you so much.
I've loved it.
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