December 26, 2024 • 52 mins
Stuck in Life? Start Here to Rediscover Your Purpose and Find Clarity
In this powerful episode, I sits down with men’s coach and transformation expert Scott McGregor to explore how to overcome self-doubt, perfectionism, and inner resistance. Discover practical strategies to break free from mental roadblocks, embrace authenticity, and step into a more fulfilled life.
🔥 Key Takeaways from This Episode:
✅ Why self-doubt holds you back—and how to rewire your mindset for confidence.
✅ The hidden dangers of perfectionism and how to stop it from keeping you stuck.
✅ Techniques to break through inner resistance and move forward with clarity.
✅ How reframing rejection and failure can help you grow and find your true path.
✅ The role of men’s groups & spiritual practices (like Byron Katie’s The Work) in self-discovery.
💡 This Episode Is Perfect For:
✔️ Men feeling stuck, lost, or disconnected from their true purpose.
✔️ High achievers battling perfectionism, self-sabotage, or fear of failure.
✔️ Anyone seeking personal growth, resilience, and mental clarity.
🎧 Listen Now to Man: Quest to Find Meaning and start your journey to authenticity, purpose, and success!
Scott McGregor, PhD is the founder of the Powys Men's Circle and has been leading men's support groups since 2010 in both the US and UK. He has completed Leadership Trainings in both Mankind Project and Satvatove Institute and is a certified life coach since 2011. Scott is adept in designing experiential events that are engaging and support participants to find new perspectives and solutions.
Last year, Scott was commissioned by NHS Wales to host discovery workshops for leaders of men's groups across Wales. Over 150 men attended in total, representing over 80 men's groups. Scott is now crafting facilitation trainings for group leaders (men and women) which will begin in January with David Wolf, PhD coming to lead the Transformative Communication and Advanced Seminars in Mid Wales.
https://satvatovewales.org/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In today's episode, we have adeep conversation about how
self-inquiry.
Asking oneself, deep reflectivequestions.
Can help you to open up newpathways for personal growth.
And discovering source ofemotions and beliefs.
We talk about how facing thosechallenges.
(00:21):
With curiosity.
Can create a betterunderstanding and acceptance of
difficult situations.
Talk about how to reframerejection.
As redirection.
Welcome to Man QuestifyingMeaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
(00:42):
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
(01:02):
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James Ainsworth (01:11):
Let's just start off.
Tell me a bit about yourself.
Scott McGreger (01:14):
Thanks.
We came into contact becausewe're both part of Mankind
Project U.
K.
I was involved since 2010 inAmerica before I moved here to
Wales.
And yeah, for me, it's beengreat to have a men's peer to
peer support group that I canattend.
When I came to Wales fromAmerica, I didn't know anyone
other than my in laws.
(01:36):
And to be able to get on thewebsite for MKP and find
different groups, men's groups,that I could attend in the area,
it was a big boost to my wellbeing and feeling a part of this
community.
James Ainsworth (01:48):
Can we go back to your childhood and how did
you start to get onto the pathof personal development?
Scott McGreger (01:58):
Thanks.
Yeah.
For me, it started pretty early.
I got a book on self hypnosiswhen I was like 14 years old and
started getting excited by theidea that I could change myself.
I could do some simple practicesthat all of a sudden things that
scared me, I would be morecomfortable with.
And then that led to a searchfor meaning and purpose as a
(02:22):
college student who was on apath of Hey, I'm just going to
make a lot of money.
I'm going to be a stockbrokerlike my brother and money is
going to bring me happiness.
And then, of course, at somepoint I questioned, is that
true, what are the real richesin life and experiences,
community, peace, harmony,contribution.
(02:43):
And so that led me toquestioning what's this all
about.
And soon after that, I met aHari Krishna on campus at the
university or Florida StateUniversity.
And I've read the Bhagavad Gitaand it made a lot of sense and
became vegetarian.
And in all that process, I wasjust remembering friends saying
(03:03):
you're going to become a HareKrishna.
I'm like, no way, I'm nevergoing to do that.
And then as I learned about thethings like, why do you eat this
way?
Why do you dress this way?
Why do you shave your head?
It's oh yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
And pretty soon I was like, ohmy God, I've become one.
And yeah, so that when Igraduated, I finished my PhD in
(03:26):
business from Florida State.
I said, okay, one year before Ibecome a professor, I'm going to
live in the temple and immersemyself in the practices and the
tradition.
And that one year turned intonine years.
And so I had nine yearsexperience of being a monk in a
temple with a vow of poverty andjust my day filled with service,
(03:50):
learning, comradeship,camaraderie.
James Ainsworth (03:55):
Nice.
That sounds like a reallyinteresting journey.
Just before we cover that littlebit, how did your childhood
impact Your teenage years andyour 20s.
Scott McGreger (04:09):
One way that my childhood impacted me that I
didn't have a religion.
My parents religion was Sundayswe golfed.
And I feel like because I neverwas pressured, you have to go do
this.
And I definitely never hadanything like God's watching you
and he's going to punish you.
I never had any negativeconnotations with spirituality
(04:31):
and God, and so when it cametime as a a 22 year old, college
student to figure out what is mybelief system?
What is my relationship with thedivine?
I didn't have a lot of baggageto get over.
I hadn't been harmed andtraumatized.
And so I, yeah, I think I wasmore open to to the idea of not
(04:51):
like whether or not God exists,but what is God?
What is my relationship withsource and how do I connect with
that source and what's it looklike for me to bring out that
divinity in myself?
James Ainsworth (05:04):
It's a big question.
What is God?
What is purpose?
What is desire?
What are all these words?
And I think as soon as you openthat kind of worm, that kind of
worms and you're open, you startto be open to this kind of
stuff.
It's almost becomes a quest.
A big quest.
Scott McGreger (05:23):
Yeah, I like that word, quest, cause it is,
and for me quest involvesadventure and all the things we
love, but it also involves likenight sleeping on the floor and
the dark night of the soul andall the challenges.
to get to the other side of thatquest.
I think for me the, like if youtalk about the chakras and like
(05:43):
for me, the spirituality was thetop chakras, my heart was open.
My, my concept of what'spossible was really open.
I was airy.
And so then when I came intocontact with men's work after
I'd left the temple and gotinvolved in mankind project and
talking about shadow and how tonot try to.
Meditate away shadow, but to gointo the shadow and to claim it
(06:06):
as a gift.
It felt very grounding.
You know that the activities ofthe men's group is earth based.
It's grounded.
It's not airy fairy.
And so I feel like for me that,that was really a help to feel
like an integrated, morecomplete quest for evolution.
James Ainsworth (06:25):
How did being in the temple really impact your
life?
How did really having that ideaof living in poverty and being
meditating, how did that reallyhelp you to ground into your
purpose?
Scott McGreger (06:41):
The process of bhakti yoga, as I understand it,
is to Find a way to be ofservice to the divine, like
what's being called of me rightnow in the world, what's the
highest good I can perform, andwhen I'm performing that
service, I can do it with amentality of Oh, I got to get
this over, then I can get backto my Netflix show, something
(07:05):
that's really important to me,or I can embrace it as there's
nothing better than this momentright now.
And by that full presence in themoment, in the activity, it's
like you think of the Buddhistmonks that do the sand mandalas,
and like they're fully there inthat, and then when they're done
with it, they just scrape itaway.
(07:27):
It's not important.
It's the process that'simportant.
And for me, that's somethingthat I felt the temple training
gave me.
What is my motivation?
Am I able to deepen my serviceto another person?
Am I able to get free from thatmentality of what's in it for
me?
(07:47):
That kind of taints theexchange.
It taints the exchange.
It's like the price tag for deepecstasy is giving up the price
tag.
So the more I can lose myself inthe service to another, the more
I get, it's that kind ofchallenging quandary, how can I
(08:08):
give up my fear that I'm notgoing to get anything out of
this.
And by giving up that fear, it'sactually, that's where the
reward occurs.
The payoff.
James Ainsworth (08:20):
Don't you give up fear?
But, actually, before we get toodeep into it Dig a little bit
deeper into that.
How did you find the journey onpresence?
Because I know from my ownperspective, last year, one of
the things I've been reallyfocusing on is becoming more
present in my everyday life.
(08:42):
It's, it seems to be, sometimesI'm able to be present.
But then other times there's abattle between present and
becoming unconscious.
How did you start to really honein presence and what kind of
steps did you take?
Scott McGreger (08:59):
What I heard you say there was like yeah, you're
interested in presence cause yousense there's something there to
this because you have adifferent experience of the
world when you're present versuswhat I heard you say
unconscious.
And so for me, I challenge youto, or invite you to look at
what is taking you out ofpresence.
I
James Ainsworth (09:18):
think it's more the everyday kind of habitual
habits.
So for example, when you godownstairs, you get into perhaps
do a morning routine, butbecause you perhaps have this
idea, you're going to do this,it's a lot harder to be present.
(09:39):
Because your body almostautomatically takes over or
another example could be,perhaps I'm doing a job that I
don't particularly like what Ido it.
I do it again and again, so Ibecome on present or unconscious
with regards to that.
(09:59):
And it's more working out.
How did, how are you able toovercome that of being
unconscious to becoming morepresent?
Scott McGreger (10:08):
Yeah.
What I heard you describe is a,an experience I have sometimes
driving, like I drive somewhereand it's like, how did I even
get here?
I don't feel like I paidattention to the driving any of
it.
And yeah, you can have yourmorning routine and in some ways
the body takes over and the mindgoes somewhere else and there's
maybe a loss of experience.
(10:29):
There isn't as much taste or youdon't relish the experience as
much when your mind iselsewhere.
James Ainsworth (10:37):
Yeah.
It becomes, I think it becomestedious, becomes boring.
And I've noticed yesterday I hada podcast yesterday and we did,
rather than actually talkingabout his journey, we talked, we
did like a coaching session justto explain and show people the
impact of shadow work.
And one of the things we didwas.
(10:58):
Connecting to the safetyofficer.
The magician side of things andhaving a conversation of why
does he need to protect theinner child, the boy inside when
the actual being, the actual,the king energy or the as people
say that the being that we arewhen you're present can actually
(11:22):
start to run the show more bybeing in that state of presence.
Scott McGreger (11:29):
Yeah.
So there's a way you couldexperience leaving presence
because of a safety officer or afear of, Hey, did I take care of
everything for yesterday or forthe future?
And did I do something wrongyesterday that I need to clean
up?
So it's maybe past and futureoriented.
James Ainsworth (11:50):
Yeah, so where, whereas when you actually, the
only time you can really impactyour life is really this exact
moment to buy, obviously beingthat state of presence.
It's then when you're able toconnect your intuition on a
deeper level.
It's then when you are able toreally fulfill, feel that bliss
(12:11):
or that feeling of ecstasybecause you are present in the
body.
And so the question more aboutis, how can people, listeners,
start to take that idea of beingless present to becoming more
present in their everydaymoments?
Scott McGreger (12:30):
Yeah, I think this starts, that's a great
question, how to do it, I thinkit starts with first having a
reason to, and I loved yourexplanation of I can have an
activity that I'm doing withoutpresence, but it can be boring,
there can be a way that thereisn't as much taste to it, and I
heard you describe that thereason there isn't as much taste
(12:52):
is because I'm not embodied.
I'm feeling through my mind, andthat's only one of the ways that
we acquire information,pleasure, connection, joy in the
world.
If we can engage the body, themind, the intellect, the soul,
the aeros all of the energiesthat make up this divine human
experience that we're having.
(13:12):
The more that we engage them themore richness there is in this
moment.
And sometimes, maybe we've hadthis experience from
psychedelics or something.
It's just, whoa, the colors, thetouch, the, right?
It's that's not doing anythingthat our body can't do itself.
Psilocybin, all these things,it's just changing the serotonin
(13:32):
and the dopamine that's alreadyexisting in our body that we can
create, as you say, by bringingthis full presence to the
moment.
James Ainsworth (13:41):
Because I, I come to realize is that where
the more that you become boredof the mundane things that you
do throughout a day, the lessconscious the more likely you
are to take on things like bingewatching TV or pornography other
things.
And it's more, it's just my ownrealization is that within
(14:03):
boredom though.
There's actually space, and it'sexploring, explore, you start to
explore, I did it at a a dancefestival, there's times when I
don't always partake in all theactivities because I feel in
that moment, I don't need to dothat thing in that moment, so
it's more along the lines ofbeing able to sit quietly, doing
(14:26):
nothing, And allowing boredom tocome up, and then within that
boredom, able to explore what isboredom, what's underneath
boredom, what's inside boredom.
And then, the answers, that'swhen you suppose you get the
gold.
Scott McGreger (14:41):
Thanks for that.
Yeah, what I'm hearing you sayis like there's a way that an
emotion can come up, in thiscase boredom.
And rather than be like, Oh,bored, I want to get the, I want
to drink the antidote forboredom, do something.
But instead of trying to get outof the boredom to really go into
the boredom.
Yeah.
To be curious what's this about?
How's it feeling my body?
(15:02):
And then what I heard you say islike from underneath there, some
deep answers might come out.
Like for me, it can beunexpressed grief.
If
I've got
unexpressed feelings inside, anger or grief,
then I've numbed myself, and mylife feels boring.
And through emotional releasetechniques, like I've been
(15:23):
involved in the ISTA,International School for Temple
Arts, and they teach a lot ofemotional release techniques.
We do it in Mankind Project.
By doing these activities, thenI reconnect with the vibrancy of
life.
All of a sudden the haze ofboredom has been removed.
Yeah, and it won't be, it won'tbe from, binging Netflix or
(15:44):
doing a wank or something.
Those are all temporary.
They're not gonna, they're notgonna express the full emotions
deep underneath.
And then the wank and theNetflix is much better after,
after I've done that emotionalrelease, I'm not against self
pleasure or entertainment.
James Ainsworth (16:03):
So how did, so obviously we're talking about
the temple.
How else did the temple being inthe temple impact your life?
Scott McGreger (16:12):
Leadership.
Yeah.
I was in charge of the templefor seven years and I was given
the keys and said, okay, becausemeditate good or something like
that, or know how to distributebooks in a parking lot.
You should be in charge ofpeople.
It's like I had no training.
And it, yeah I reverted back tostrategies for survival.
(16:34):
In this workshop that I'minvolved in, Sattva Tov, we talk
about strategies for livingversus strategies for survival.
Strategies for survival arelooking good, maintaining an
appearance of control I got thistogether, anything but being
vulnerable.
And because in my role as atemple president, I wasn't sure
(16:55):
what I was supposed to do.
I put on the mask, the personaof authority.
And then I often had a differentvoice and often that voice was
yelling at people.
Yelling management by yelling.
You won't find it in any of theStephen Covey books.
It was a Scott McGregor special.
And what happened is after a fewyears of doing that I was
(17:18):
depleted.
Yeah, I was going to the I wentto the emergency room in America
for a backache.
And I said, this is so bad.
My, my legs are numb.
I don't know what's wrong.
And they did an x ray and said,there's nothing physically wrong
with you.
Maybe you're trying to get painkill, pain pills out of us.
And I'm like, no, I don't evendrink coffee, tea or anything
(17:39):
like that.
And so I went to a networkchiropractor and he said, Oh
yeah, this isn't a physicalproblem.
This is an emotional problem.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
I can't move.
And so he did the muscle testingwhere they put the arm in the
air and he puts pressure on it.
And he says different things.
And he talked about bereavementor grief and no, I'm okay.
(17:59):
When people die in my life, Ifeel it.
And then he said dogmaticallypositioned persons.
And my arm went down, and Isaid, I don't even know what
that means.
He says your body does, and hesays, it means the people you
care about in your life, you'reat odds with, you're in an
argument with, and you feel likeyou can't resolve it.
(18:22):
And I'm like, yeah, about 40, 40of them, because as a leader in
a community, whatever decision Imake, for some, it was too
strict, and for others, it wasnot strict enough.
And so I was having, voices inmy ear all the time, like you
have to do different, you haveto do different.
And yeah, it felt like a lot oftension.
(18:43):
And so it was a relief for me toknow okay, at least I've
identified the problem, but Ididn't know what to do with it.
And so the next day HariKrishna, a friend of mine, David
Wolf, he had, he said.
I've been taking his counselingskills courses to help me learn
how to manage the people in thetemple better.
(19:04):
He said, I've developed a threeday seminar that I think you
should come to.
I'm like, totally, I'm there.
And it was great.
It was three days of reallylooking at what are my
strategies for living life?
What is the things that Ilearned from watching mom and
dad argue?
The things that I learned frombeing ostracized from a group of
kids as a five or a fifthgrader?
(19:26):
And what, who, who do I reallywant to be in the world?
And a lot of empathy skills too,so how to listen to people at a
deep level.
And I was in one of the finalprocesses of the workshop, and
it had to do with obstacles.
And my obstacle was, I want tomake my personal relationship
with the devotees in the temple,devotees is what we called Hare
(19:48):
Krishnas, my priority.
Yeah, and even like saying thatwould bring tears.
Because I just thought, I can'tdo it.
I've hurt their feelings, I'vetreated them harshly, I just, I
can't do it.
And we personified ourobstacles.
Don't want to give away theprocess.
But in there I got to reallystand up for what I believed in
(20:10):
and argue with my obstacles.
I'm not going to let fear get inmy, get in the way.
And then the other one was like,you've got too much to do.
You don't have time toprioritize relationships.
And I argued, if the devoteesare happy, they'll do 10 times
as much work.
It was a real way to take themental things going on inside,
(20:34):
put them outside into physicalspace and engage with them with
real energy.
And after that process, I waslike, my back's all better.
And it was that instantaneous,it was that much of a one to one
correlation.
The challenges in my life werecoming from my head.
(20:54):
And they were manifesting in mybody in a pain that was
practically debilitating.
And so that gave me a lot offaith in this idea that by
repressing things, I'm going tohurt myself and the kind of
gabber maté.
Explanation way of like stressis the cause of all ailments
unfelt traumas from childhood.
(21:17):
These are things that are reallyaffecting our health and well
being.
Yeah, I continued to be involvedin that workshop, the sub the
toe of workshop and David'swritten a book relationships at
work and, I've, for the lastyear, I've been bringing him
here to Wales from America toteach that, that workshop, and
I'm bringing him again January9th through 12th in Llandrindod
(21:38):
Wells, Wales.
And it continues to be a bigpart of my unfolding and the
listening skills that I'vegotten from that workshop have
been recognized and appreciatedin the men's group circles.
And I've done a lot of specifichelp to help men's group leaders
hold a sacred space.
For other men, by, by deeplystepping into their world,
(22:01):
helping them feel heard andunderstood, and having the trust
that I don't have to advisesomeone, I don't have to fix
someone, but just to hold anunconditional positive regard
and an open space for them toexplore what's going on, they
have the answers.
So
James Ainsworth (22:20):
that idea was that you would take a challenge
that you're having, such as Idon't have enough time and you
would argue the reasons forthat.
You do have enough time.
Scott McGreger (22:30):
Okay.
So I'm going to describe more ofthat process.
So the process is to takesomewhere where you feel stuck
in your life.
James Ainsworth (22:38):
Okay.
Scott McGreger (22:38):
And then to have 3 or 4 people personify your
obstacles.
I want to do, I want to do a newwebsite for myself.
So my obstacle is I'm not, Idon't want to pigeonhole myself.
I love the work of Byron Katie.
She's one of my mentors.
I love the work of Satvatov.
I love men's work.
(22:59):
I love the tantra work that I'minvolved in.
So I don't want to make awebsite that's going to limit
me.
And so that's one of myobstacles.
Another obstacle is I can'tstand working at the computer.
I like to be out in nature.
Another obstacle is it's nevergood enough.
And so I would let theseobstacles argue with me and then
(23:21):
I'd usually you have a coach tosomeone who's on your team like,
come on, Scott, you can do this,tell them, stand up for
yourself.
And yeah we'd say go and thenthe obstacles would argue.
And then when the obstacles gotthat, I was with a hundred
percent of my being committed tomy goal.
Then they would sit down.
(23:41):
Okay.
Come to the point.
James Ainsworth (23:44):
Because yesterday I had a coaching
session and we went through thisprocess of, we realized that
I've got resistance to littleresistance to certain things,
and she was saying, it's aboutthat, that feeling of what was
it, unfair, I, underneath thesurface, there's a lot of, I
(24:05):
feel a lot of unfairness.
So she was getting me to talkabout all the unfairness that
I'm feeling.
And then, to turn it around, andto ask me, Why is it fair?
And by doing that and workingout why it is fair, you start to
create a list of gratitude forthat thing.
Scott McGreger (24:26):
So it's the little
James Ainsworth (24:26):
things.
Yeah.
So it works quite well.
Scott McGreger (24:29):
Yeah.
So you're describing a processof what we call in Sattva Tov
alternate perspectives.
So looking at something fromanother viewpoint, glass half
full, half empty.
So why is this way I'm beingtreated in this circumstance
unfair?
I can, my mind can find all thereasons why I'm right.
That's what mine does.
(24:49):
Mine is trying to service everyminute, either telling us how to
stay safe, the safety officer,or it can be of like, I have a
belief.
Nobody really likes me.
They don't really want me here.
And then it gives me all.
Oh, yeah, this person.
They canceled that meeting withyou.
And this person didn't inviteyou to a party 5 years ago.
(25:10):
And then it might even be sosupportive that will remind me
of something from childhood.
Yeah.
The yeah.
The mind.
So it's nice to take the mindand say, Hey, mind, look at it
from the other perspective.
And then, yeah, it can also beour best friend or our worst
enemy.
That's a verse from the BavaGita.
But the mind is something for usto utilize as a tool, not
(25:34):
worship as God.
James Ainsworth (25:36):
Yeah.
Nice.
I like that.
It's that's quite a powerfulstatement.
How did you really get from.
Going from the temple to intomend work and joining the MKP.
Scott McGreger (25:49):
Oh, there was a step in between there.
So I had gotten a book on mybirthday and it was called
Loving What Is by Byron Katie.
And another monk in the templegave it to me.
He said, I think you'll likethis book.
And in there, one of thequestions she asks in her
process is, who would you bewithout this thought?
(26:10):
And I'm like, I can do that.
I can just pretend erase thethought.
And yeah, I got really excitedby the process.
I started, I read her book.
I started doing it.
I was feeling a lot of freedomin my life.
And at the time I was supposedto start flying from.
Florida to Los Angeles once amonth to participate in some
(26:32):
governing body meetings.
They're asking me to take on amore higher management role
within the Hare Krishnamovement.
And I don't know, there'ssomething inside me like this
isn't what I got into it for.
This isn't where my next stepis.
And instead of saying yes tothat, I said yes to Byron
Katie's 10 day school.
So there's a real immersion inthe process she calls the work,
(26:55):
and the work is looking at ourbelief systems, bringing them
out, what our subtle beliefsmight be, that the only way to
live in the world is win lose inorder to get what I want, I have
to take it from someone else,and I don't want to be a taker,
so I'll just put away mydesires.
So to get clear about what thosestories are that are going on
(27:17):
subtly in our mind.
And so in her workshop I had mymind blown.
I blew my mind.
And in that was a lot of freedomand authenticity and natural joy
for life.
Yeah, I felt like I was seeingGod in every tree, every plant,
every person that I came incontact with.
(27:38):
It was a beautiful opening, andof course I went back to more
regular consciousness, but itwas still there in the sense
that when I came back to thetemple, I could not make myself
do something I didn't want todo.
There was no more obligation, nomore people pleasing.
There was no belief that anyoneon the planet wanted me to do
(27:59):
something I didn't want to do.
So they'd ask me are you goingto come hear the Swami speak
tonight?
I'm like, no, I'm going to goplay basketball.
And so they're like, oh my gosh,you're so honest.
I would have, said, look, oh, Ihave to read the scriptures or
something, but I had no one toimpress, no obligation.
And so being a leader in acommunity, that was the
(28:21):
beginning of the end for me.
I was definitely getting upearlier than I wanted to.
I was chanting more of themantras than I wanted to because
I wanted to set an example.
For the younger people in thetemple, I wanted to set an
example for what a good HareKrishna is.
But in that process, I hadforgotten that, hey, an aspect
(28:42):
of being a good Hare Krishna isbeing authentic.
And so I was striving for ahigher level of spiritual
realization than I was at.
And yeah, it was fake.
So when I came to that realplatform, some people were like,
yay, Scott, so happy for you.
And other people were like,You're doing it wrong,
(29:04):
basketball's not going to getyou to the spiritual world,
chanting is.
And so I saw that in order forme to continue my authentic path
in life, I couldn't do it inthat community.
I couldn't do it where otherpeople were being affected by my
decisions.
So I turned over my managementto the temple.
It was a long process of a year.
(29:26):
But yeah, it was a necessarynext step in my evolution.
And I still have a niceconnection.
I enjoy being in a kirtan ormeeting Hari Krishna's when I'm
out and about.
And it's, it'll always be in myheart.
But yeah, the path ofauthenticity is the one I
worship.
And so that took me to ByronKatie.
(29:46):
Okay.
I got involved in her work, andwe lived in the same town, Ojai,
so I was fortunate to have somegood training from her, and I
continue to stay involved inthat community, and I teach some
of her workshops.
And then someone asked me, theysaid, hey, you want to come to a
men's group?
I'm like, yeah.
And the first time I went to theNew Warrior Training Adventure,
(30:09):
so Mankind Project has thisthree day rite of passage, which
we are both graduates of.
And in that space there was 40men in the room.
I got in that workshop and it'sthe first time I've ever been in
a workshop or even a space likethat with all men.
I heard this voice come up like,if mom's not here, the men are
(30:31):
going to kill each other.
If there isn't a woman in thegroup.
Yeah, I can't trust men.
And I didn't realize I had thatin me until I went into a
workshop space or a settingwhere I was confronted with that
belief.
Yeah.
And, and I had these beliefslike I'm younger than that guy.
He's younger than me.
(30:52):
We're different.
Like I make more money than him.
I, he's not like me.
I had all these differences.
And then after doing a fewprocesses and hearing what,
what's your fear in life?
What's your joy in life?
What, who are you as a person?
The more I heard, I'm like, Oh,my God, you guys are just like
me.
And so for me, that was really ajuncture in my life from seeing
(31:16):
men as kind of competitors orcompetitors.
acquaintances at best, but thepeople that I confided in were
women up until that point.
So I changed my relationshipwith men from a distant thing to
yeah, I have support.
I have the support of brothersthat I can cry with, that I can
(31:36):
laugh with, that I can ask forhelp from, and yeah, trust that
they want me to succeed.
James Ainsworth (31:42):
Cause I remember when I did it, I did
probably about, I think it wastwo years ago, but it was more
the power of being in a roomwith a hundred men and to know
that they all have your back,but at the same time.
You are just like them.
You are in the same situation asall these men are, and it's that
(32:05):
ability to be able to speak yourtruth, to be able to talk about
your emotions to be able to behonest and open, especially when
it comes to the warrior workside of things, where you're
truthful about a man, but yousee a reflection, it's a
reflection of you, and that'spowerful.
Scott McGreger (32:29):
Yeah, thanks.
Those are all great.
They sound familiar to myexperience too.
Yeah, to have a space whereyou're with other men and you
feel their support, you're ableto open up about emotions rather
than hide them for fear thatyou'll, they'll be used against
you, call you a pussy orwhatever, the wounds we had from
our childhood relationships withother men.
(32:51):
Yeah, it was it's like such abeautiful healing that takes
place in those men's groups thatway.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And to feel that what was thelast one you said?
James Ainsworth (33:00):
About the warrior side of things.
So seeing a shadow in anotherperson that is actually, it's an
aspect of yourself.
Scott McGreger (33:10):
Thanks.
That's also a a gift that I'vegotten from Mankind Project,
that my relationship withanother man, if it becomes
strained, I don't have to eitherhate him or run away from him or
exclude him.
I can address it in a healthysafe way.
So yeah I'm frustrated at you,brother.
This thing you did to me,brother, has hurt me and I'm mad
(33:32):
at you about it.
And then I can find that, ah,it's not you, brother.
It's what happened to me as achild that you're reflecting or
it's what I made it mean and, tohug at the end of that process.
It's like such a beautifulaffirmation that men don't have
to be enemies when conflictcomes up.
(33:53):
We can work through it.
We can find the gold that'sthere.
We can build new relationships,agreements, trust to move
forward with.
It
takes
a
James Ainsworth (34:08):
lot of courage, especially because from my own
perspective, when you approachsomebody and tell them how you
feel, there's thatvulnerability, especially if
something is, it's a negativething.
And it's that it's thatvulnerability to be able to tell
them that I feel angry orthere's an aspect of you that I
(34:30):
hate.
But it's not actually them it's,you're looking at it as part of
yourself.
And that leads on quite nicelyto the next bit, which is, how
do you define a healthy man?
Scott McGreger (34:41):
Yeah, thanks.
Let's hold that healthy manbecause I yeah, what you said is
so rich.
It's like we haven't a system ofprocess for Dealing with our
thoughts and beliefs.
So if I have a oh god, I can'tstand James.
He's so arrogant version thatinstead of like really like
(35:03):
gossiping about you andenlisting other people, but he's
arrogant, isn't he?
You believe it too, right?
Yeah.
Instead of that approach, I cansay, Hey, James, I'm having this
situation where I'm judging youas arrogant.
Will you help me explore this?
And we might have a couplepeople supporting us in that
process.
And then you go through what'sthe data?
(35:23):
What's the judgments?
What's the feelings?
And then the ownership, where amI arrogant?
Because I can give you adviceall day.
Yeah, James, you'll be happierin life.
You're a little more humble, butthis is, we do this thing where
you point one finger out, threeare pointing back at you.
So I think that process is that.
(35:44):
That same logic that myjudgments that I'm flinging out
at the external world are reallyjust for me inside and so where
am I arrogant?
Where am I arrogant?
I don't even know if you have afamily.
I don't even know.
There's so many things.
I don't know about you.
And so arrogance to me meansself centeredness.
(36:06):
And yeah, that's where I'm beingarrogant in my relationship with
you.
I haven't taken time to find outabout who you are as a man.
What are your aspirations otherthan this awesome podcast that
you're doing?
So yay.
I go away with somethingvaluable.
Our relationship gets builtbecause I've been real with you
rather than blaming you, makingyou wrong or the opposite, which
(36:30):
I often do is just write youoff, avoid your call.
Yeah.
We build relationships.
Yeah.
So if you segue into thequestion of what's a healthy
man, I think a man that is intouch with his emotions, is
willing, sees the value of beingvulnerable, because it invests
(36:52):
in relationships with other men.
That vulnerable, vulnerabilityis the currency for building
trust and connection, forbuilding intimacy.
Yeah.
And for me, a healthy man,there's no such thing.
It's a healthy man in communityof men in the family.
We build a healthy dad by havinga healthy family, a healthy
(37:14):
child has healthy parents, thehealth is not just within us,
but it's our environment and ourrelationships.
James Ainsworth (37:23):
Yeah, that sounds, that's powerful.
Can you explain a little bitmore about that?
Scott McGreger (37:27):
I'm spiritual as anything, when I'm sitting on my
couch, when I'm sitting on thesofa all alone, I am like so
even keeled.
Add a person to it who has maybeneeds different than mine or
different way of speaking or adifferent accent.
All of a sudden it's morechallenging than it starts to in
(37:49):
the Hare Krishna movement.
We cook with this thing calledghee.
Ghee is made with butter.
You put a bunch of butter in apot, you turn the flame on low,
just a small flame, and over thecourse of hours, the impurities
in the butter rise to the top,and you could scoop them off,
and then what you've got is athing you can fry things in at a
very high temperature, and theydon't burn, so you have the best
(38:12):
fried foods when you fry them inghee, and it's rich it's total
fat, there's nothing but fat soin the same way I feel like
There's weeds in my heart.
There's things in my heart, someimpurities, some wounds some
parts of me that, that need tobe attended to, and they don't
come out until there's friction,until there's the rubbing
(38:33):
against another person,literally or figuratively, and
in there, then I can be like,Huh, I don't like the way you
did that.
And so that brings up like, whatis it in me that's needing to be
attended to, needing to beexpressed?
And so for me spiritualitydoesn't take place in a vacuum.
(38:54):
Anybody can meditate and sit ona yoga mat and do that thing.
It's great.
Now, can you do it with theperson who just cut you off in
traffic?
Can you do it with that coworker who just took credit for
the stuff that you feel youshould have gotten credit for?
That's practical spirituality.
Someone told me, you want togive someone a spiritual test,
(39:14):
you take a camera and followthem around for the day.
Because spirituality isn't aboutlike, how good I can meditate,
or what I eat, or something likethat.
Spirituality is about how I dealwith conflict, how I deal with
expressing myself in the world.
When I'm challenged withsomething that doesn't match my
(39:35):
comfort zone, do I make themwrong Republicans hate Democrats
or, there's so much divisivenessand that's like a base level,
and the Ken Wilber system.
We want to come up to the higherlevels of synthesis of
cooperation of what are thecommon needs that both of these
people have.
(39:56):
Oh, yeah, you feel stronglyabout creating a world where
there's safety, where there'srespect for each other.
Yeah, I have those values too,rather than just argue that we
have a different candidate thatwe want to support.
James Ainsworth (40:10):
That's that's powerful because there's the
idea that, as you said, you canbe as spiritual or as anything
as you want when you're byyourself.
But the work is being able to doit out there.
And there's a couple of placesthere's a place called Oshalia
down in Dorset, which is prettymuch a personal, for the people
(40:32):
who are listening, it's apersonal and spiritual
development centre.
And it's got its own bubble.
Now it's great you can do allthe work there, but then the
next bit is to take that workthat you did there out into the
real world and to do it in realtime circumstances where people
some people get angry, somepeople get really emotional, and
(40:56):
to be able to maintain that outin front of people is the key.
Scott McGreger (41:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
It's a great way to express it.
And I feel like those tools,like you described earlier, the
tool of owning my projections ofhaving a clearing of withhold,
withheld energy with me andanother person, those are the
tools that help me maintainthat, that centeredness, that
connection with myself when I'mchallenged in those other
(41:24):
circumstances.
So we don't learn this language,Okay.
When we're in school, this isn'tsomething taught in the
curriculum growing up.
But for me, these are essentialskills for being a good human
being for enjoying life to thefullest extent for being able to
fulfill my human potential.
(41:45):
And so like nonviolentcommunication the things I
learned in Sattva Tov workshopthe Buddhist practices or the
Byron Katie approach to relatingto my thoughts.
And something that came up todaywas with talking with a friend
is I don't need to figure outlike how to succeed in my career
or succeed in my relationshipsor all these different areas.
(42:07):
I just need to have 1 thing thatI work on.
And that 1 thing is myrelationship with fear because
it, it pervades everything myfear.
She's going to leave me or myfear that someone's going to
think I'm a bad person becauseI'm bisexual or whatever.
My fears might be.
If I deal with my relationshipwith fear, then all of those
(42:30):
things will be addressed.
My fear to put out a website, myfear to, Stein bigger in the
world or whatever it is, what'smy relationship with fear?
And so I'm really excited bythis idea that anything I want
in life.
It's all just have to hinge onthis one thing.
What's my relationship withfear?
Is it something that I run awayfrom, I hide from, I distract
(42:54):
from, I smoke marijuana to getaway from?
Or is it something that I havecuriosity about and I'm going
into it?
And fear, you're welcome.
You're welcome here.
Yeah, I can do a website withfear.
I can put on a workshop fromAmerica and that fear that
nobody's going to come.
And yeah, it's with me.
James Ainsworth (43:16):
Yeah, I start to see fear now as the unknown.
Because inside fear, there'sthis idea that you don't know
what's going to happen.
Because the near reason fear iscoming in is because it's in a
place which is unpredictable.
And when I feel fear feels verystagnated, it feels very hard,
(43:41):
whereas the unknown, changingthe fear to the unknown, is a
sense of excitement, sense ofjoy, sense of let's go, what's
in, what's, what can I explore,what can I do?
Scott McGreger (43:54):
Nice.
Yeah.
Nice.
There's a concept in David'sbook, Relationships at Work,
that's language reflectsconsciousness.
Yeah.
So the words I'm using reflectwhat's going on inside of me.
If I say, Oh, I'm shit atmathematics.
I don't understand numbers atall.
So that's creating my reality.
So what I heard for you is thisword fear.
(44:15):
It has so much connotation.
It's a bad thing.
And so if you change that wordto unknown, yeah, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure what's going tohappen there.
That it feels softer.
It feels more expansive.
A little bit.
Even lens possibility forcuriosity, adventure, and
excitement.
I'm
James Ainsworth (44:35):
not sure if somebody is going to judge me.
I'm not sure if people are goingto name call me.
I'm not sure if I walk out myfront door, I'm going to hit by
a car as an example.
But it's the idea that if we getcaught enough.
Thinking of fear is going to ownme, then we get to a point where
(44:56):
we don't do anything.
And so it's almost likeembracing, not allowing fear to
hold us back, but embracing itas something that can help us to
grow.
Scott McGreger (45:10):
Yeah, information.
Yeah, someone said to me,because I was doing some work
with a coach on this upcomingworkshop and hosting it.
It's a big financial commitmentfor myself.
Plus, it's, a lot of worktelling people like they can't
even pronounce the workshop.
Satva Tov.
Satva is a Sanskrit word meaninggoodness.
(45:30):
And so when I looked at thatfear, it's like we walked into
what could happen.
And we do this in mankindproject in the process called
what's at risk.
What's at risk if you don'tchange?
What's at risk if you do change?
So if I do the workshop and noone comes, what's at risk?
I lose a couple thousand pounds,I feel sad for a little bit, and
(45:50):
I go on with my life.
I can live through that.
Yeah, what's at risk if I reallygo for it?
And, yeah, it's totallysuccessful.
Yeah, last year I filled it, 30people, that was the full
capacity of the place I rented.
I still have people in my lifetelling me about the
(46:10):
realizations they had from thatworkshop and how they've stepped
more into things that they wereafraid to do in their life
because of overcoming internalblocks.
James Ainsworth (46:22):
And you taught, what's the workshop about?
The
Scott McGreger (46:26):
workshop starts with listening skills.
Do I know the difference betweenlistening, advising, consoling,
sympathizing?
How is empathy different fromsympathy?
Because this is, since 1999 I'vebeen involved in this question
and I continue to be excited.
(46:47):
By how much richness there is,the more that I can listen to a
person deeply.
If I'm bored with a person, tome that means I'm not listening
to them.
I might be hearing the words,but I'm not opening to the
somatic energy, to all theinformation, because the
information that comes acrossfrom another person, you've
(47:08):
probably seen that pie chartbefore, it's 7 percent is the
words we use.
And by 28 percent is theinflection, the speed, the pace,
the other things.
And then 70 percent of it is notto do with words or sounds at
all.
It's the energy coming from theperson.
It's the facial features.
(47:30):
There's so much information thatwe can learn somatically,
energetically.
And so the more the I learnabout these practices of deep
listening, the richer my lifeis.
And yeah, so I'm excited to, tobring, cause I, I experienced
David Wolf as being a master atthis.
He's a great facilitator andtrainer and to have him here and
(47:52):
my little old town in Wales justfeels like a blessing.
And so after we've got thoseskills of listening, then we can
start to create the safety.
Because when someone feels safeto express themselves, then we
can get start taking off themasks and looking at what are
the masks I wear in life.
What are the personas that Ifeel comfortable showing another
(48:16):
person, but it's not my fullself.
It's not my full authentic selfas a full authentic self would
include those things vulnerable,sad, insecure the, when I start
to be comfortable allowing intomy being, then they integrate.
And they have less power.
Sometimes the analogy is givenof a beach ball, like you hold
(48:39):
down a beach ball under thewater, and it takes work to hold
it down.
And like the stripes on thebeach ball are emotions, so
fear, anger, sadness, joy.
And so I don't want anyone tosee I'm an angry.
I'm an angry man.
I anger.
I don't want anyone to see that.
(49:00):
Then I'm holding down thatanger.
So no one sees it, but it'staking away some of my energy.
And if I take my mind off it,it'll pop back up and then I'll
get pissed off.
Angry at my son for spillingmilk, and this is like, Dad,
chill out.
The process in Sadhvotov is tostart to quit beachballing our
emotions instead of pushing theminto the darkness, to start to
(49:23):
feel them, to start to becurious about them, to, to look
at, like, where is it comingfrom and what would it look like
to live a life of moreauthenticity?
And within that, there's a lotof.
Exercises and games that we do,like these simple games that all
of a sudden, by playing thatgame, I realize so much about
(49:44):
myself.
How am I viewing other people?
How am I viewing myself and theworld?
And it's quite profound.
Super experiential.
What I learned from David,because of my facilitator
training, was with him.
And then I came into MankindProject and other things with
that background.
We don't tell anyone.
anything.
(50:04):
There's no like blackboard andyou're saying, so this is what
you should do.
And this is shadow work.
And this is this it's doing it.
Okay.
We're going to, we're going topersonify our obstacles.
You're going to do this readygo.
And then we process afterwardsand what people learned and we
get to share from each otherusing I statements and nothing
(50:25):
about making it a religion ormaking it a philosophy.
This is just my heartfeltexperience by hearing another
person's heartfelt experience.
I may be like, Oh, I'm going totake that with that gem, that
wisdom home.
But yeah, really experiential.
I like that about David's work.
James Ainsworth (50:47):
What are the dates for this?
Scott McGreger (50:49):
January 9th through 12th and you can ninth
through 12 find it.
Maybe we can put the link satvov whales, that's S-A-T-V-A
sattva, TOVE to muzzle to ovwhale.org.
James Ainsworth (51:06):
I'll put a link in the show notes.
So then they can click on theshow notes and then yeah, follow
the link to the page.
That's not an issue.
Thanks James.
Do you run any retreats and whatelse do you do?
Scott McGreger (51:19):
Yeah, Lawrence Johns from Mankind Project who I
know has been on your show too.
He and I do an annual or maybesometimes twice a year men's
retreat at my family's land hereclose by.
That's called Dudes in the Dome.
We put up a geodesic dome as ourworkshop area before, and so
that name stuck.
Yeah, it's a great blend ofprocess, work, community, being
(51:42):
in nature, just having sharedmeals with a group of guys being
real with each other.
It's so healing.
And then, yeah, there's a riverthere so we can do some Wim H.
Cold water immersion and otherthings that bring aliveness and
joy.
And yeah, so that's something wedo within the men's work area.
I teach workshops here in LandryDodd Wells on Byron Cady, the
(52:07):
process of doing the work,Subbatobe Listening Workshops,
and then I've been bringingDavid here for the last two
years.
James Ainsworth (52:16):
Nice.
I think the more that we cansubmerge ourselves in men's
work, I think the more enrichedour life is going to be.
Scott McGreger (52:26):
Yeah.
You've gotten a lot out of themen's work, haven't you?
James Ainsworth (52:29):
A lot.
Thank you very much, Scott.
Scott McGreger (52:33):
Oh, James, thank you.
Yeah, I really appreciate thatyou're making this like a
priority in your life of givingthis information of things that
have helped you giving it toothers who might be newer on the
path and want some tips andthings.
And yeah, it's been a pleasureto meet you and look forward to
more.
James Ainsworth (52:51):
Thank you very much.
In today's episode, we have adeep conversation about how
self-inquiry.
Asking oneself, deep reflectivequestions.
Can help you to open up newpathways for personal growth.
And discovering source ofemotions and beliefs.
We talk about how facing thosechallenges.
(00:21):
With curiosity.
Can create a betterunderstanding and acceptance of
difficult situations.
Talk about how to reframerejection.
As redirection.
Welcome to Man QuestifyingMeaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
(00:42):
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
(01:02):
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James Ainsworth (01:11):
Let's just start off.
Tell me a bit about yourself.
Scott McGreger (01:14):
Thanks.
We came into contact becausewe're both part of Mankind
Project U.
K.
I was involved since 2010 inAmerica before I moved here to
Wales.
And yeah, for me, it's beengreat to have a men's peer to
peer support group that I canattend.
When I came to Wales fromAmerica, I didn't know anyone
other than my in laws.
(01:36):
And to be able to get on thewebsite for MKP and find
different groups, men's groups,that I could attend in the area,
it was a big boost to my wellbeing and feeling a part of this
community.
James Ainsworth (01:48):
Can we go back to your childhood and how did
you start to get onto the pathof personal development?
Scott McGreger (01:58):
Thanks.
Yeah.
For me, it started pretty early.
I got a book on self hypnosiswhen I was like 14 years old and
started getting excited by theidea that I could change myself.
I could do some simple practicesthat all of a sudden things that
scared me, I would be morecomfortable with.
And then that led to a searchfor meaning and purpose as a
(02:22):
college student who was on apath of Hey, I'm just going to
make a lot of money.
I'm going to be a stockbrokerlike my brother and money is
going to bring me happiness.
And then, of course, at somepoint I questioned, is that
true, what are the real richesin life and experiences,
community, peace, harmony,contribution.
(02:43):
And so that led me toquestioning what's this all
about.
And soon after that, I met aHari Krishna on campus at the
university or Florida StateUniversity.
And I've read the Bhagavad Gitaand it made a lot of sense and
became vegetarian.
And in all that process, I wasjust remembering friends saying
(03:03):
you're going to become a HareKrishna.
I'm like, no way, I'm nevergoing to do that.
And then as I learned about thethings like, why do you eat this
way?
Why do you dress this way?
Why do you shave your head?
It's oh yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
And pretty soon I was like, ohmy God, I've become one.
And yeah, so that when Igraduated, I finished my PhD in
(03:26):
business from Florida State.
I said, okay, one year before Ibecome a professor, I'm going to
live in the temple and immersemyself in the practices and the
tradition.
And that one year turned intonine years.
And so I had nine yearsexperience of being a monk in a
temple with a vow of poverty andjust my day filled with service,
(03:50):
learning, comradeship,camaraderie.
James Ainsworth (03:55):
Nice.
That sounds like a reallyinteresting journey.
Just before we cover that littlebit, how did your childhood
impact Your teenage years andyour 20s.
Scott McGreger (04:09):
One way that my childhood impacted me that I
didn't have a religion.
My parents religion was Sundayswe golfed.
And I feel like because I neverwas pressured, you have to go do
this.
And I definitely never hadanything like God's watching you
and he's going to punish you.
I never had any negativeconnotations with spirituality
(04:31):
and God, and so when it cametime as a a 22 year old, college
student to figure out what is mybelief system?
What is my relationship with thedivine?
I didn't have a lot of baggageto get over.
I hadn't been harmed andtraumatized.
And so I, yeah, I think I wasmore open to to the idea of not
(04:51):
like whether or not God exists,but what is God?
What is my relationship withsource and how do I connect with
that source and what's it looklike for me to bring out that
divinity in myself?
James Ainsworth (05:04):
It's a big question.
What is God?
What is purpose?
What is desire?
What are all these words?
And I think as soon as you openthat kind of worm, that kind of
worms and you're open, you startto be open to this kind of
stuff.
It's almost becomes a quest.
A big quest.
Scott McGreger (05:23):
Yeah, I like that word, quest, cause it is,
and for me quest involvesadventure and all the things we
love, but it also involves likenight sleeping on the floor and
the dark night of the soul andall the challenges.
to get to the other side of thatquest.
I think for me the, like if youtalk about the chakras and like
(05:43):
for me, the spirituality was thetop chakras, my heart was open.
My, my concept of what'spossible was really open.
I was airy.
And so then when I came intocontact with men's work after
I'd left the temple and gotinvolved in mankind project and
talking about shadow and how tonot try to.
Meditate away shadow, but to gointo the shadow and to claim it
(06:06):
as a gift.
It felt very grounding.
You know that the activities ofthe men's group is earth based.
It's grounded.
It's not airy fairy.
And so I feel like for me that,that was really a help to feel
like an integrated, morecomplete quest for evolution.
James Ainsworth (06:25):
How did being in the temple really impact your
life?
How did really having that ideaof living in poverty and being
meditating, how did that reallyhelp you to ground into your
purpose?
Scott McGreger (06:41):
The process of bhakti yoga, as I understand it,
is to Find a way to be ofservice to the divine, like
what's being called of me rightnow in the world, what's the
highest good I can perform, andwhen I'm performing that
service, I can do it with amentality of Oh, I got to get
this over, then I can get backto my Netflix show, something
(07:05):
that's really important to me,or I can embrace it as there's
nothing better than this momentright now.
And by that full presence in themoment, in the activity, it's
like you think of the Buddhistmonks that do the sand mandalas,
and like they're fully there inthat, and then when they're done
with it, they just scrape itaway.
(07:27):
It's not important.
It's the process that'simportant.
And for me, that's somethingthat I felt the temple training
gave me.
What is my motivation?
Am I able to deepen my serviceto another person?
Am I able to get free from thatmentality of what's in it for
me?
(07:47):
That kind of taints theexchange.
It taints the exchange.
It's like the price tag for deepecstasy is giving up the price
tag.
So the more I can lose myself inthe service to another, the more
I get, it's that kind ofchallenging quandary, how can I
(08:08):
give up my fear that I'm notgoing to get anything out of
this.
And by giving up that fear, it'sactually, that's where the
reward occurs.
The payoff.
James Ainsworth (08:20):
Don't you give up fear?
But, actually, before we get toodeep into it Dig a little bit
deeper into that.
How did you find the journey onpresence?
Because I know from my ownperspective, last year, one of
the things I've been reallyfocusing on is becoming more
present in my everyday life.
(08:42):
It's, it seems to be, sometimesI'm able to be present.
But then other times there's abattle between present and
becoming unconscious.
How did you start to really honein presence and what kind of
steps did you take?
Scott McGreger (08:59):
What I heard you say there was like yeah, you're
interested in presence cause yousense there's something there to
this because you have adifferent experience of the
world when you're present versuswhat I heard you say
unconscious.
And so for me, I challenge youto, or invite you to look at
what is taking you out ofpresence.
I
James Ainsworth (09:18):
think it's more the everyday kind of habitual
habits.
So for example, when you godownstairs, you get into perhaps
do a morning routine, butbecause you perhaps have this
idea, you're going to do this,it's a lot harder to be present.
(09:39):
Because your body almostautomatically takes over or
another example could be,perhaps I'm doing a job that I
don't particularly like what Ido it.
I do it again and again, so Ibecome on present or unconscious
with regards to that.
(09:59):
And it's more working out.
How did, how are you able toovercome that of being
unconscious to becoming morepresent?
Scott McGreger (10:08):
Yeah.
What I heard you describe is a,an experience I have sometimes
driving, like I drive somewhereand it's like, how did I even
get here?
I don't feel like I paidattention to the driving any of
it.
And yeah, you can have yourmorning routine and in some ways
the body takes over and the mindgoes somewhere else and there's
maybe a loss of experience.
(10:29):
There isn't as much taste or youdon't relish the experience as
much when your mind iselsewhere.
James Ainsworth (10:37):
Yeah.
It becomes, I think it becomestedious, becomes boring.
And I've noticed yesterday I hada podcast yesterday and we did,
rather than actually talkingabout his journey, we talked, we
did like a coaching session justto explain and show people the
impact of shadow work.
And one of the things we didwas.
(10:58):
Connecting to the safetyofficer.
The magician side of things andhaving a conversation of why
does he need to protect theinner child, the boy inside when
the actual being, the actual,the king energy or the as people
say that the being that we arewhen you're present can actually
(11:22):
start to run the show more bybeing in that state of presence.
Scott McGreger (11:29):
Yeah.
So there's a way you couldexperience leaving presence
because of a safety officer or afear of, Hey, did I take care of
everything for yesterday or forthe future?
And did I do something wrongyesterday that I need to clean
up?
So it's maybe past and futureoriented.
James Ainsworth (11:50):
Yeah, so where, whereas when you actually, the
only time you can really impactyour life is really this exact
moment to buy, obviously beingthat state of presence.
It's then when you're able toconnect your intuition on a
deeper level.
It's then when you are able toreally fulfill, feel that bliss
(12:11):
or that feeling of ecstasybecause you are present in the
body.
And so the question more aboutis, how can people, listeners,
start to take that idea of beingless present to becoming more
present in their everydaymoments?
Scott McGreger (12:30):
Yeah, I think this starts, that's a great
question, how to do it, I thinkit starts with first having a
reason to, and I loved yourexplanation of I can have an
activity that I'm doing withoutpresence, but it can be boring,
there can be a way that thereisn't as much taste to it, and I
heard you describe that thereason there isn't as much taste
(12:52):
is because I'm not embodied.
I'm feeling through my mind, andthat's only one of the ways that
we acquire information,pleasure, connection, joy in the
world.
If we can engage the body, themind, the intellect, the soul,
the aeros all of the energiesthat make up this divine human
experience that we're having.
(13:12):
The more that we engage them themore richness there is in this
moment.
And sometimes, maybe we've hadthis experience from
psychedelics or something.
It's just, whoa, the colors, thetouch, the, right?
It's that's not doing anythingthat our body can't do itself.
Psilocybin, all these things,it's just changing the serotonin
(13:32):
and the dopamine that's alreadyexisting in our body that we can
create, as you say, by bringingthis full presence to the
moment.
James Ainsworth (13:41):
Because I, I come to realize is that where
the more that you become boredof the mundane things that you
do throughout a day, the lessconscious the more likely you
are to take on things like bingewatching TV or pornography other
things.
And it's more, it's just my ownrealization is that within
(14:03):
boredom though.
There's actually space, and it'sexploring, explore, you start to
explore, I did it at a a dancefestival, there's times when I
don't always partake in all theactivities because I feel in
that moment, I don't need to dothat thing in that moment, so
it's more along the lines ofbeing able to sit quietly, doing
(14:26):
nothing, And allowing boredom tocome up, and then within that
boredom, able to explore what isboredom, what's underneath
boredom, what's inside boredom.
And then, the answers, that'swhen you suppose you get the
gold.
Scott McGreger (14:41):
Thanks for that.
Yeah, what I'm hearing you sayis like there's a way that an
emotion can come up, in thiscase boredom.
And rather than be like, Oh,bored, I want to get the, I want
to drink the antidote forboredom, do something.
But instead of trying to get outof the boredom to really go into
the boredom.
Yeah.
To be curious what's this about?
How's it feeling my body?
(15:02):
And then what I heard you say islike from underneath there, some
deep answers might come out.
Like for me, it can beunexpressed grief.
If
I've got
unexpressed feelings inside, anger or grief,
then I've numbed myself, and mylife feels boring.
And through emotional releasetechniques, like I've been
(15:23):
involved in the ISTA,International School for Temple
Arts, and they teach a lot ofemotional release techniques.
We do it in Mankind Project.
By doing these activities, thenI reconnect with the vibrancy of
life.
All of a sudden the haze ofboredom has been removed.
Yeah, and it won't be, it won'tbe from, binging Netflix or
(15:44):
doing a wank or something.
Those are all temporary.
They're not gonna, they're notgonna express the full emotions
deep underneath.
And then the wank and theNetflix is much better after,
after I've done that emotionalrelease, I'm not against self
pleasure or entertainment.
James Ainsworth (16:03):
So how did, so obviously we're talking about
the temple.
How else did the temple being inthe temple impact your life?
Scott McGreger (16:12):
Leadership.
Yeah.
I was in charge of the templefor seven years and I was given
the keys and said, okay, becausemeditate good or something like
that, or know how to distributebooks in a parking lot.
You should be in charge ofpeople.
It's like I had no training.
And it, yeah I reverted back tostrategies for survival.
(16:34):
In this workshop that I'minvolved in, Sattva Tov, we talk
about strategies for livingversus strategies for survival.
Strategies for survival arelooking good, maintaining an
appearance of control I got thistogether, anything but being
vulnerable.
And because in my role as atemple president, I wasn't sure
(16:55):
what I was supposed to do.
I put on the mask, the personaof authority.
And then I often had a differentvoice and often that voice was
yelling at people.
Yelling management by yelling.
You won't find it in any of theStephen Covey books.
It was a Scott McGregor special.
And what happened is after a fewyears of doing that I was
(17:18):
depleted.
Yeah, I was going to the I wentto the emergency room in America
for a backache.
And I said, this is so bad.
My, my legs are numb.
I don't know what's wrong.
And they did an x ray and said,there's nothing physically wrong
with you.
Maybe you're trying to get painkill, pain pills out of us.
And I'm like, no, I don't evendrink coffee, tea or anything
(17:39):
like that.
And so I went to a networkchiropractor and he said, Oh
yeah, this isn't a physicalproblem.
This is an emotional problem.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
I can't move.
And so he did the muscle testingwhere they put the arm in the
air and he puts pressure on it.
And he says different things.
And he talked about bereavementor grief and no, I'm okay.
(17:59):
When people die in my life, Ifeel it.
And then he said dogmaticallypositioned persons.
And my arm went down, and Isaid, I don't even know what
that means.
He says your body does, and hesays, it means the people you
care about in your life, you'reat odds with, you're in an
argument with, and you feel likeyou can't resolve it.
(18:22):
And I'm like, yeah, about 40, 40of them, because as a leader in
a community, whatever decision Imake, for some, it was too
strict, and for others, it wasnot strict enough.
And so I was having, voices inmy ear all the time, like you
have to do different, you haveto do different.
And yeah, it felt like a lot oftension.
(18:43):
And so it was a relief for me toknow okay, at least I've
identified the problem, but Ididn't know what to do with it.
And so the next day HariKrishna, a friend of mine, David
Wolf, he had, he said.
I've been taking his counselingskills courses to help me learn
how to manage the people in thetemple better.
(19:04):
He said, I've developed a threeday seminar that I think you
should come to.
I'm like, totally, I'm there.
And it was great.
It was three days of reallylooking at what are my
strategies for living life?
What is the things that Ilearned from watching mom and
dad argue?
The things that I learned frombeing ostracized from a group of
kids as a five or a fifthgrader?
(19:26):
And what, who, who do I reallywant to be in the world?
And a lot of empathy skills too,so how to listen to people at a
deep level.
And I was in one of the finalprocesses of the workshop, and
it had to do with obstacles.
And my obstacle was, I want tomake my personal relationship
with the devotees in the temple,devotees is what we called Hare
(19:48):
Krishnas, my priority.
Yeah, and even like saying thatwould bring tears.
Because I just thought, I can'tdo it.
I've hurt their feelings, I'vetreated them harshly, I just, I
can't do it.
And we personified ourobstacles.
Don't want to give away theprocess.
But in there I got to reallystand up for what I believed in
(20:10):
and argue with my obstacles.
I'm not going to let fear get inmy, get in the way.
And then the other one was like,you've got too much to do.
You don't have time toprioritize relationships.
And I argued, if the devoteesare happy, they'll do 10 times
as much work.
It was a real way to take themental things going on inside,
(20:34):
put them outside into physicalspace and engage with them with
real energy.
And after that process, I waslike, my back's all better.
And it was that instantaneous,it was that much of a one to one
correlation.
The challenges in my life werecoming from my head.
(20:54):
And they were manifesting in mybody in a pain that was
practically debilitating.
And so that gave me a lot offaith in this idea that by
repressing things, I'm going tohurt myself and the kind of
gabber maté.
Explanation way of like stressis the cause of all ailments
unfelt traumas from childhood.
(21:17):
These are things that are reallyaffecting our health and well
being.
Yeah, I continued to be involvedin that workshop, the sub the
toe of workshop and David'swritten a book relationships at
work and, I've, for the lastyear, I've been bringing him
here to Wales from America toteach that, that workshop, and
I'm bringing him again January9th through 12th in Llandrindod
(21:38):
Wells, Wales.
And it continues to be a bigpart of my unfolding and the
listening skills that I'vegotten from that workshop have
been recognized and appreciatedin the men's group circles.
And I've done a lot of specifichelp to help men's group leaders
hold a sacred space.
For other men, by, by deeplystepping into their world,
(22:01):
helping them feel heard andunderstood, and having the trust
that I don't have to advisesomeone, I don't have to fix
someone, but just to hold anunconditional positive regard
and an open space for them toexplore what's going on, they
have the answers.
So
James Ainsworth (22:20):
that idea was that you would take a challenge
that you're having, such as Idon't have enough time and you
would argue the reasons forthat.
You do have enough time.
Scott McGreger (22:30):
Okay.
So I'm going to describe more ofthat process.
So the process is to takesomewhere where you feel stuck
in your life.
James Ainsworth (22:38):
Okay.
Scott McGreger (22:38):
And then to have 3 or 4 people personify your
obstacles.
I want to do, I want to do a newwebsite for myself.
So my obstacle is I'm not, Idon't want to pigeonhole myself.
I love the work of Byron Katie.
She's one of my mentors.
I love the work of Satvatov.
I love men's work.
(22:59):
I love the tantra work that I'minvolved in.
So I don't want to make awebsite that's going to limit
me.
And so that's one of myobstacles.
Another obstacle is I can'tstand working at the computer.
I like to be out in nature.
Another obstacle is it's nevergood enough.
And so I would let theseobstacles argue with me and then
(23:21):
I'd usually you have a coach tosomeone who's on your team like,
come on, Scott, you can do this,tell them, stand up for
yourself.
And yeah we'd say go and thenthe obstacles would argue.
And then when the obstacles gotthat, I was with a hundred
percent of my being committed tomy goal.
Then they would sit down.
(23:41):
Okay.
Come to the point.
James Ainsworth (23:44):
Because yesterday I had a coaching
session and we went through thisprocess of, we realized that
I've got resistance to littleresistance to certain things,
and she was saying, it's aboutthat, that feeling of what was
it, unfair, I, underneath thesurface, there's a lot of, I
(24:05):
feel a lot of unfairness.
So she was getting me to talkabout all the unfairness that
I'm feeling.
And then, to turn it around, andto ask me, Why is it fair?
And by doing that and workingout why it is fair, you start to
create a list of gratitude forthat thing.
Scott McGreger (24:26):
So it's the little
James Ainsworth (24:26):
things.
Yeah.
So it works quite well.
Scott McGreger (24:29):
Yeah.
So you're describing a processof what we call in Sattva Tov
alternate perspectives.
So looking at something fromanother viewpoint, glass half
full, half empty.
So why is this way I'm beingtreated in this circumstance
unfair?
I can, my mind can find all thereasons why I'm right.
That's what mine does.
(24:49):
Mine is trying to service everyminute, either telling us how to
stay safe, the safety officer,or it can be of like, I have a
belief.
Nobody really likes me.
They don't really want me here.
And then it gives me all.
Oh, yeah, this person.
They canceled that meeting withyou.
And this person didn't inviteyou to a party 5 years ago.
(25:10):
And then it might even be sosupportive that will remind me
of something from childhood.
Yeah.
The yeah.
The mind.
So it's nice to take the mindand say, Hey, mind, look at it
from the other perspective.
And then, yeah, it can also beour best friend or our worst
enemy.
That's a verse from the BavaGita.
But the mind is something for usto utilize as a tool, not
(25:34):
worship as God.
James Ainsworth (25:36):
Yeah.
Nice.
I like that.
It's that's quite a powerfulstatement.
How did you really get from.
Going from the temple to intomend work and joining the MKP.
Scott McGreger (25:49):
Oh, there was a step in between there.
So I had gotten a book on mybirthday and it was called
Loving What Is by Byron Katie.
And another monk in the templegave it to me.
He said, I think you'll likethis book.
And in there, one of thequestions she asks in her
process is, who would you bewithout this thought?
(26:10):
And I'm like, I can do that.
I can just pretend erase thethought.
And yeah, I got really excitedby the process.
I started, I read her book.
I started doing it.
I was feeling a lot of freedomin my life.
And at the time I was supposedto start flying from.
Florida to Los Angeles once amonth to participate in some
(26:32):
governing body meetings.
They're asking me to take on amore higher management role
within the Hare Krishnamovement.
And I don't know, there'ssomething inside me like this
isn't what I got into it for.
This isn't where my next stepis.
And instead of saying yes tothat, I said yes to Byron
Katie's 10 day school.
So there's a real immersion inthe process she calls the work,
(26:55):
and the work is looking at ourbelief systems, bringing them
out, what our subtle beliefsmight be, that the only way to
live in the world is win lose inorder to get what I want, I have
to take it from someone else,and I don't want to be a taker,
so I'll just put away mydesires.
So to get clear about what thosestories are that are going on
(27:17):
subtly in our mind.
And so in her workshop I had mymind blown.
I blew my mind.
And in that was a lot of freedomand authenticity and natural joy
for life.
Yeah, I felt like I was seeingGod in every tree, every plant,
every person that I came incontact with.
(27:38):
It was a beautiful opening, andof course I went back to more
regular consciousness, but itwas still there in the sense
that when I came back to thetemple, I could not make myself
do something I didn't want todo.
There was no more obligation, nomore people pleasing.
There was no belief that anyoneon the planet wanted me to do
(27:59):
something I didn't want to do.
So they'd ask me are you goingto come hear the Swami speak
tonight?
I'm like, no, I'm going to goplay basketball.
And so they're like, oh my gosh,you're so honest.
I would have, said, look, oh, Ihave to read the scriptures or
something, but I had no one toimpress, no obligation.
And so being a leader in acommunity, that was the
(28:21):
beginning of the end for me.
I was definitely getting upearlier than I wanted to.
I was chanting more of themantras than I wanted to because
I wanted to set an example.
For the younger people in thetemple, I wanted to set an
example for what a good HareKrishna is.
But in that process, I hadforgotten that, hey, an aspect
(28:42):
of being a good Hare Krishna isbeing authentic.
And so I was striving for ahigher level of spiritual
realization than I was at.
And yeah, it was fake.
So when I came to that realplatform, some people were like,
yay, Scott, so happy for you.
And other people were like,You're doing it wrong,
(29:04):
basketball's not going to getyou to the spiritual world,
chanting is.
And so I saw that in order forme to continue my authentic path
in life, I couldn't do it inthat community.
I couldn't do it where otherpeople were being affected by my
decisions.
So I turned over my managementto the temple.
It was a long process of a year.
(29:26):
But yeah, it was a necessarynext step in my evolution.
And I still have a niceconnection.
I enjoy being in a kirtan ormeeting Hari Krishna's when I'm
out and about.
And it's, it'll always be in myheart.
But yeah, the path ofauthenticity is the one I
worship.
And so that took me to ByronKatie.
(29:46):
Okay.
I got involved in her work, andwe lived in the same town, Ojai,
so I was fortunate to have somegood training from her, and I
continue to stay involved inthat community, and I teach some
of her workshops.
And then someone asked me, theysaid, hey, you want to come to a
men's group?
I'm like, yeah.
And the first time I went to theNew Warrior Training Adventure,
(30:09):
so Mankind Project has thisthree day rite of passage, which
we are both graduates of.
And in that space there was 40men in the room.
I got in that workshop and it'sthe first time I've ever been in
a workshop or even a space likethat with all men.
I heard this voice come up like,if mom's not here, the men are
(30:31):
going to kill each other.
If there isn't a woman in thegroup.
Yeah, I can't trust men.
And I didn't realize I had thatin me until I went into a
workshop space or a settingwhere I was confronted with that
belief.
Yeah.
And, and I had these beliefslike I'm younger than that guy.
He's younger than me.
(30:52):
We're different.
Like I make more money than him.
I, he's not like me.
I had all these differences.
And then after doing a fewprocesses and hearing what,
what's your fear in life?
What's your joy in life?
What, who are you as a person?
The more I heard, I'm like, Oh,my God, you guys are just like
me.
And so for me, that was really ajuncture in my life from seeing
(31:16):
men as kind of competitors orcompetitors.
acquaintances at best, but thepeople that I confided in were
women up until that point.
So I changed my relationshipwith men from a distant thing to
yeah, I have support.
I have the support of brothersthat I can cry with, that I can
(31:36):
laugh with, that I can ask forhelp from, and yeah, trust that
they want me to succeed.
James Ainsworth (31:42):
Cause I remember when I did it, I did
probably about, I think it wastwo years ago, but it was more
the power of being in a roomwith a hundred men and to know
that they all have your back,but at the same time.
You are just like them.
You are in the same situation asall these men are, and it's that
(32:05):
ability to be able to speak yourtruth, to be able to talk about
your emotions to be able to behonest and open, especially when
it comes to the warrior workside of things, where you're
truthful about a man, but yousee a reflection, it's a
reflection of you, and that'spowerful.
Scott McGreger (32:29):
Yeah, thanks.
Those are all great.
They sound familiar to myexperience too.
Yeah, to have a space whereyou're with other men and you
feel their support, you're ableto open up about emotions rather
than hide them for fear thatyou'll, they'll be used against
you, call you a pussy orwhatever, the wounds we had from
our childhood relationships withother men.
(32:51):
Yeah, it was it's like such abeautiful healing that takes
place in those men's groups thatway.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And to feel that what was thelast one you said?
James Ainsworth (33:00):
About the warrior side of things.
So seeing a shadow in anotherperson that is actually, it's an
aspect of yourself.
Scott McGreger (33:10):
Thanks.
That's also a a gift that I'vegotten from Mankind Project,
that my relationship withanother man, if it becomes
strained, I don't have to eitherhate him or run away from him or
exclude him.
I can address it in a healthysafe way.
So yeah I'm frustrated at you,brother.
This thing you did to me,brother, has hurt me and I'm mad
(33:32):
at you about it.
And then I can find that, ah,it's not you, brother.
It's what happened to me as achild that you're reflecting or
it's what I made it mean and, tohug at the end of that process.
It's like such a beautifulaffirmation that men don't have
to be enemies when conflictcomes up.
(33:53):
We can work through it.
We can find the gold that'sthere.
We can build new relationships,agreements, trust to move
forward with.
It
takes
a
James Ainsworth (34:08):
lot of courage, especially because from my own
perspective, when you approachsomebody and tell them how you
feel, there's thatvulnerability, especially if
something is, it's a negativething.
And it's that it's thatvulnerability to be able to tell
them that I feel angry orthere's an aspect of you that I
(34:30):
hate.
But it's not actually them it's,you're looking at it as part of
yourself.
And that leads on quite nicelyto the next bit, which is, how
do you define a healthy man?
Scott McGreger (34:41):
Yeah, thanks.
Let's hold that healthy manbecause I yeah, what you said is
so rich.
It's like we haven't a system ofprocess for Dealing with our
thoughts and beliefs.
So if I have a oh god, I can'tstand James.
He's so arrogant version thatinstead of like really like
(35:03):
gossiping about you andenlisting other people, but he's
arrogant, isn't he?
You believe it too, right?
Yeah.
Instead of that approach, I cansay, Hey, James, I'm having this
situation where I'm judging youas arrogant.
Will you help me explore this?
And we might have a couplepeople supporting us in that
process.
And then you go through what'sthe data?
(35:23):
What's the judgments?
What's the feelings?
And then the ownership, where amI arrogant?
Because I can give you adviceall day.
Yeah, James, you'll be happierin life.
You're a little more humble, butthis is, we do this thing where
you point one finger out, threeare pointing back at you.
So I think that process is that.
(35:44):
That same logic that myjudgments that I'm flinging out
at the external world are reallyjust for me inside and so where
am I arrogant?
Where am I arrogant?
I don't even know if you have afamily.
I don't even know.
There's so many things.
I don't know about you.
And so arrogance to me meansself centeredness.
(36:06):
And yeah, that's where I'm beingarrogant in my relationship with
you.
I haven't taken time to find outabout who you are as a man.
What are your aspirations otherthan this awesome podcast that
you're doing?
So yay.
I go away with somethingvaluable.
Our relationship gets builtbecause I've been real with you
rather than blaming you, makingyou wrong or the opposite, which
(36:30):
I often do is just write youoff, avoid your call.
Yeah.
We build relationships.
Yeah.
So if you segue into thequestion of what's a healthy
man, I think a man that is intouch with his emotions, is
willing, sees the value of beingvulnerable, because it invests
(36:52):
in relationships with other men.
That vulnerable, vulnerabilityis the currency for building
trust and connection, forbuilding intimacy.
Yeah.
And for me, a healthy man,there's no such thing.
It's a healthy man in communityof men in the family.
We build a healthy dad by havinga healthy family, a healthy
(37:14):
child has healthy parents, thehealth is not just within us,
but it's our environment and ourrelationships.
James Ainsworth (37:23):
Yeah, that sounds, that's powerful.
Can you explain a little bitmore about that?
Scott McGreger (37:27):
I'm spiritual as anything, when I'm sitting on my
couch, when I'm sitting on thesofa all alone, I am like so
even keeled.
Add a person to it who has maybeneeds different than mine or
different way of speaking or adifferent accent.
All of a sudden it's morechallenging than it starts to in
(37:49):
the Hare Krishna movement.
We cook with this thing calledghee.
Ghee is made with butter.
You put a bunch of butter in apot, you turn the flame on low,
just a small flame, and over thecourse of hours, the impurities
in the butter rise to the top,and you could scoop them off,
and then what you've got is athing you can fry things in at a
very high temperature, and theydon't burn, so you have the best
(38:12):
fried foods when you fry them inghee, and it's rich it's total
fat, there's nothing but fat soin the same way I feel like
There's weeds in my heart.
There's things in my heart, someimpurities, some wounds some
parts of me that, that need tobe attended to, and they don't
come out until there's friction,until there's the rubbing
(38:33):
against another person,literally or figuratively, and
in there, then I can be like,Huh, I don't like the way you
did that.
And so that brings up like, whatis it in me that's needing to be
attended to, needing to beexpressed?
And so for me spiritualitydoesn't take place in a vacuum.
(38:54):
Anybody can meditate and sit ona yoga mat and do that thing.
It's great.
Now, can you do it with theperson who just cut you off in
traffic?
Can you do it with that coworker who just took credit for
the stuff that you feel youshould have gotten credit for?
That's practical spirituality.
Someone told me, you want togive someone a spiritual test,
(39:14):
you take a camera and followthem around for the day.
Because spirituality isn't aboutlike, how good I can meditate,
or what I eat, or something likethat.
Spirituality is about how I dealwith conflict, how I deal with
expressing myself in the world.
When I'm challenged withsomething that doesn't match my
(39:35):
comfort zone, do I make themwrong Republicans hate Democrats
or, there's so much divisivenessand that's like a base level,
and the Ken Wilber system.
We want to come up to the higherlevels of synthesis of
cooperation of what are thecommon needs that both of these
people have.
(39:56):
Oh, yeah, you feel stronglyabout creating a world where
there's safety, where there'srespect for each other.
Yeah, I have those values too,rather than just argue that we
have a different candidate thatwe want to support.
James Ainsworth (40:10):
That's that's powerful because there's the
idea that, as you said, you canbe as spiritual or as anything
as you want when you're byyourself.
But the work is being able to doit out there.
And there's a couple of placesthere's a place called Oshalia
down in Dorset, which is prettymuch a personal, for the people
(40:32):
who are listening, it's apersonal and spiritual
development centre.
And it's got its own bubble.
Now it's great you can do allthe work there, but then the
next bit is to take that workthat you did there out into the
real world and to do it in realtime circumstances where people
some people get angry, somepeople get really emotional, and
(40:56):
to be able to maintain that outin front of people is the key.
Scott McGreger (41:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
It's a great way to express it.
And I feel like those tools,like you described earlier, the
tool of owning my projections ofhaving a clearing of withhold,
withheld energy with me andanother person, those are the
tools that help me maintainthat, that centeredness, that
connection with myself when I'mchallenged in those other
(41:24):
circumstances.
So we don't learn this language,Okay.
When we're in school, this isn'tsomething taught in the
curriculum growing up.
But for me, these are essentialskills for being a good human
being for enjoying life to thefullest extent for being able to
fulfill my human potential.
(41:45):
And so like nonviolentcommunication the things I
learned in Sattva Tov workshopthe Buddhist practices or the
Byron Katie approach to relatingto my thoughts.
And something that came up todaywas with talking with a friend
is I don't need to figure outlike how to succeed in my career
or succeed in my relationshipsor all these different areas.
(42:07):
I just need to have 1 thing thatI work on.
And that 1 thing is myrelationship with fear because
it, it pervades everything myfear.
She's going to leave me or myfear that someone's going to
think I'm a bad person becauseI'm bisexual or whatever.
My fears might be.
If I deal with my relationshipwith fear, then all of those
(42:30):
things will be addressed.
My fear to put out a website, myfear to, Stein bigger in the
world or whatever it is, what'smy relationship with fear?
And so I'm really excited bythis idea that anything I want
in life.
It's all just have to hinge onthis one thing.
What's my relationship withfear?
Is it something that I run awayfrom, I hide from, I distract
(42:54):
from, I smoke marijuana to getaway from?
Or is it something that I havecuriosity about and I'm going
into it?
And fear, you're welcome.
You're welcome here.
Yeah, I can do a website withfear.
I can put on a workshop fromAmerica and that fear that
nobody's going to come.
And yeah, it's with me.
James Ainsworth (43:16):
Yeah, I start to see fear now as the unknown.
Because inside fear, there'sthis idea that you don't know
what's going to happen.
Because the near reason fear iscoming in is because it's in a
place which is unpredictable.
And when I feel fear feels verystagnated, it feels very hard,
(43:41):
whereas the unknown, changingthe fear to the unknown, is a
sense of excitement, sense ofjoy, sense of let's go, what's
in, what's, what can I explore,what can I do?
Scott McGreger (43:54):
Nice.
Yeah.
Nice.
There's a concept in David'sbook, Relationships at Work,
that's language reflectsconsciousness.
Yeah.
So the words I'm using reflectwhat's going on inside of me.
If I say, Oh, I'm shit atmathematics.
I don't understand numbers atall.
So that's creating my reality.
So what I heard for you is thisword fear.
(44:15):
It has so much connotation.
It's a bad thing.
And so if you change that wordto unknown, yeah, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure what's going tohappen there.
That it feels softer.
It feels more expansive.
A little bit.
Even lens possibility forcuriosity, adventure, and
excitement.
I'm
James Ainsworth (44:35):
not sure if somebody is going to judge me.
I'm not sure if people are goingto name call me.
I'm not sure if I walk out myfront door, I'm going to hit by
a car as an example.
But it's the idea that if we getcaught enough.
Thinking of fear is going to ownme, then we get to a point where
(44:56):
we don't do anything.
And so it's almost likeembracing, not allowing fear to
hold us back, but embracing itas something that can help us to
grow.
Scott McGreger (45:10):
Yeah, information.
Yeah, someone said to me,because I was doing some work
with a coach on this upcomingworkshop and hosting it.
It's a big financial commitmentfor myself.
Plus, it's, a lot of worktelling people like they can't
even pronounce the workshop.
Satva Tov.
Satva is a Sanskrit word meaninggoodness.
(45:30):
And so when I looked at thatfear, it's like we walked into
what could happen.
And we do this in mankindproject in the process called
what's at risk.
What's at risk if you don'tchange?
What's at risk if you do change?
So if I do the workshop and noone comes, what's at risk?
I lose a couple thousand pounds,I feel sad for a little bit, and
(45:50):
I go on with my life.
I can live through that.
Yeah, what's at risk if I reallygo for it?
And, yeah, it's totallysuccessful.
Yeah, last year I filled it, 30people, that was the full
capacity of the place I rented.
I still have people in my lifetelling me about the
(46:10):
realizations they had from thatworkshop and how they've stepped
more into things that they wereafraid to do in their life
because of overcoming internalblocks.
James Ainsworth (46:22):
And you taught, what's the workshop about?
The
Scott McGreger (46:26):
workshop starts with listening skills.
Do I know the difference betweenlistening, advising, consoling,
sympathizing?
How is empathy different fromsympathy?
Because this is, since 1999 I'vebeen involved in this question
and I continue to be excited.
(46:47):
By how much richness there is,the more that I can listen to a
person deeply.
If I'm bored with a person, tome that means I'm not listening
to them.
I might be hearing the words,but I'm not opening to the
somatic energy, to all theinformation, because the
information that comes acrossfrom another person, you've
(47:08):
probably seen that pie chartbefore, it's 7 percent is the
words we use.
And by 28 percent is theinflection, the speed, the pace,
the other things.
And then 70 percent of it is notto do with words or sounds at
all.
It's the energy coming from theperson.
It's the facial features.
(47:30):
There's so much information thatwe can learn somatically,
energetically.
And so the more the I learnabout these practices of deep
listening, the richer my lifeis.
And yeah, so I'm excited to, tobring, cause I, I experienced
David Wolf as being a master atthis.
He's a great facilitator andtrainer and to have him here and
(47:52):
my little old town in Wales justfeels like a blessing.
And so after we've got thoseskills of listening, then we can
start to create the safety.
Because when someone feels safeto express themselves, then we
can get start taking off themasks and looking at what are
the masks I wear in life.
What are the personas that Ifeel comfortable showing another
(48:16):
person, but it's not my fullself.
It's not my full authentic selfas a full authentic self would
include those things vulnerable,sad, insecure the, when I start
to be comfortable allowing intomy being, then they integrate.
And they have less power.
Sometimes the analogy is givenof a beach ball, like you hold
(48:39):
down a beach ball under thewater, and it takes work to hold
it down.
And like the stripes on thebeach ball are emotions, so
fear, anger, sadness, joy.
And so I don't want anyone tosee I'm an angry.
I'm an angry man.
I anger.
I don't want anyone to see that.
(49:00):
Then I'm holding down thatanger.
So no one sees it, but it'staking away some of my energy.
And if I take my mind off it,it'll pop back up and then I'll
get pissed off.
Angry at my son for spillingmilk, and this is like, Dad,
chill out.
The process in Sadhvotov is tostart to quit beachballing our
emotions instead of pushing theminto the darkness, to start to
(49:23):
feel them, to start to becurious about them, to, to look
at, like, where is it comingfrom and what would it look like
to live a life of moreauthenticity?
And within that, there's a lotof.
Exercises and games that we do,like these simple games that all
of a sudden, by playing thatgame, I realize so much about
(49:44):
myself.
How am I viewing other people?
How am I viewing myself and theworld?
And it's quite profound.
Super experiential.
What I learned from David,because of my facilitator
training, was with him.
And then I came into MankindProject and other things with
that background.
We don't tell anyone.
anything.
(50:04):
There's no like blackboard andyou're saying, so this is what
you should do.
And this is shadow work.
And this is this it's doing it.
Okay.
We're going to, we're going topersonify our obstacles.
You're going to do this readygo.
And then we process afterwardsand what people learned and we
get to share from each otherusing I statements and nothing
(50:25):
about making it a religion ormaking it a philosophy.
This is just my heartfeltexperience by hearing another
person's heartfelt experience.
I may be like, Oh, I'm going totake that with that gem, that
wisdom home.
But yeah, really experiential.
I like that about David's work.
James Ainsworth (50:47):
What are the dates for this?
Scott McGreger (50:49):
January 9th through 12th and you can ninth
through 12 find it.
Maybe we can put the link satvov whales, that's S-A-T-V-A
sattva, TOVE to muzzle to ovwhale.org.
James Ainsworth (51:06):
I'll put a link in the show notes.
So then they can click on theshow notes and then yeah, follow
the link to the page.
That's not an issue.
Thanks James.
Do you run any retreats and whatelse do you do?
Scott McGreger (51:19):
Yeah, Lawrence Johns from Mankind Project who I
know has been on your show too.
He and I do an annual or maybesometimes twice a year men's
retreat at my family's land hereclose by.
That's called Dudes in the Dome.
We put up a geodesic dome as ourworkshop area before, and so
that name stuck.
Yeah, it's a great blend ofprocess, work, community, being
(51:42):
in nature, just having sharedmeals with a group of guys being
real with each other.
It's so healing.
And then, yeah, there's a riverthere so we can do some Wim H.
Cold water immersion and otherthings that bring aliveness and
joy.
And yeah, so that's something wedo within the men's work area.
I teach workshops here in LandryDodd Wells on Byron Cady, the
(52:07):
process of doing the work,Subbatobe Listening Workshops,
and then I've been bringingDavid here for the last two
years.
James Ainsworth (52:16):
Nice.
I think the more that we cansubmerge ourselves in men's
work, I think the more enrichedour life is going to be.
Scott McGreger (52:26):
Yeah.
You've gotten a lot out of themen's work, haven't you?
James Ainsworth (52:29):
A lot.
Thank you very much, Scott.
Scott McGreger (52:33):
Oh, James, thank you.
Yeah, I really appreciate thatyou're making this like a
priority in your life of givingthis information of things that
have helped you giving it toothers who might be newer on the
path and want some tips andthings.
And yeah, it's been a pleasureto meet you and look forward to
more.
James Ainsworth (52:51):
Thank you very much.
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