April 30, 2025 • 63 mins
About Ori Latter
Ori Latter is a transformational coach and men’s group facilitator who helps men reclaim the part of themselves they’ve hidden behind success. He works with leaders, founders, and fathers who look strong on the outside—but feel quietly lost, numb, or disconnected within. Through intuitive 1:1 coaching, emotionally honest group work, and deep listening, Ori guides men back to their truth—not by fixing them, but by helping them remember who they really are.
Links:
www.orilatter.co.uk
FB & IG @orilatter
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In this week's episode, we talkabout everything to do with
fatherhood, how it's superimportant.
The hold space, not just foryour child, but for yourself
too.
How presence over perfection iswhat your child needs, and how
playfulness can be both yourhealer and the key to abundance
(00:21):
of joy.
Welcome to Man (00:22):
A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:43):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (01:02):
I believe we all come into this world carrying a
timeless light.
Our spirit, when we connected toit, we feel alive and at home in
ourselves, and when we losetouch with it, we feel lost,
disconnected, and separated.
Fatherhood has been a journey ofremembering that light in my
(01:25):
daughter, but also in myself.
It's from that place that I findthe tools to parent her and to
reparent the parts of me that isstill needs care.
I honestly believe that our roleas parents is to protect that
flame, to let it shine brightlyin our children and to do all
our own inner work so we don'tdim it with our own fears or
(01:48):
projections.
Good morning, Ori.
How are you?
Ori (01:52):
Good morning, James.
I'm really good.
Thank you.
James (01:55):
Can you tell me more from that statement?
Ori (02:04):
The statement really is the, uh, the essence of what I
do, what I believe in the waythat I live, the way that I see,
uh, God or light or something inwhoever's in front of me and the
people that I work with.
I believe that we all come intothis world with some kind of
(02:25):
light, some purity.
Nobody comes into this worldwith any baggage of, uh, shame,
of not enough of any kind ofguilt of anything that's wrong.
All those stories are storiesthat we take on.
These are stories that are givento us, and those stories reshape
(02:46):
us, and I think that as parents,our role is to.
Protect our kids as much aspossible.
It's impossible to keep them,uh, completely pure.
Because this world is not, isnot pure.
But, uh, it's important toprotect them and maintain that
(03:06):
light.
Keep that, remind them, thatremind the kids that that light
is in them and they are light,and that light will always stay
with them.
That is the essence of, uh, ofwhat I do.
And it's a, it's a reminder tomyself that, uh, I cannot dump
(03:27):
my baggage and my, or everythingthat I've accumulated throughout
life onto my daughter.
'cause you know, like I said,she is, she didn't do anything
to deserve that.
That's, uh, that's the essenceof it.
James (03:43):
Yes.
You see it.
Because I think as adults we gofor our own experiences as kids,
and we take on a lot of what ourparents have.
And I think it's never been atime when we understand so much
where we can actually impact andremove these projections and
(04:11):
baggage from not just ourparents, but from our lineage,
from our ancestors, from from,from the, for the whole world.
And I think you're right, it'sabout we've, we've got to do the
work.
We've got to look insideourselves to really find our own
(04:34):
light internally.
And then once we find our, ourown light, internally, shine it
on the parts of ourselves, whichwe might be struggling with.
And within them parts that wemight be struggling with.
We can befriend it, we can, um,accept it as ourselves, and then
we can embrace it.
And then when we start toembrace it, we start to shine.
(04:54):
Like there's no, no shining
Ori (04:58):
spot on.
You know, the, it, it is the,these moments when, when I work
with men that you see thatslowly they're starting to
believe that I am lovable, I amgood enough, I am beautiful, I
am worthy.
(05:18):
And to start coming back, tostart coming back to self and to
actually see those, all thosemessages, all those labels, all
that weight, heavy, heavy weightand burdens that have been put
onto us that we've beencarrying.
Again, it's not just ourparents, it's society.
It's society as a whole.
We look around and kids, kidsgrow up.
And they're looking at these,you know, demigods in the form
(05:42):
of, you know, footballers, inthe models, in the, you know,
uh, TV actors, whatnot.
And they, and a lot of the timewe feel I'll never be that.
I don't have what they, I don'thave what they have.
So, coming back to this ideathat I am, I am something, I,
I'm a child of God, I am pure.
(06:03):
And all those stories that I'vetaken on throughout the years
that have been labels, that havebeen given me are not mine.
So learning to give those labelsback is the, is the journey.
James (06:16):
Yes.
It's owning not just ourshadows, but also owning our
light.
Because you're right, I thinkI've seen it.
It, um.
Pop star concerts and footballstadiums where they literally,
you said they worship, they seethe parts of themselves in that
(06:40):
other person, but they don'tactually see it, if you know
what I mean.
So if they don't actually ownit, so giving an example, you
might see a, uh, a rock starplaying amazingly on stage and
you are there like, he's soelectric.
It's then being able to own thatelectric part of ourselves, like
(07:02):
that part of ourselves, likethat, that's kind of thing.
And I think that's, that's thekey.
It's not us owning our shadows,it's owning our light.
And when we own our light, it'slike, you see, you might see a
actress who's really confident.
We said, I'm, I can never bethat confident, but you can.
And it's pulling that back,bringing it back to ourselves
(07:24):
and owning that confidencewithin ourself.
Ori (07:28):
I love that.
I love the way, I love the wayyou described that.
Yeah.
Owning the gold.
Absolutely.
James (07:35):
So let's start off, can you tell us about yourself?
Ori (07:41):
So, I'm originally from Israel.
I.
Uh, lived in many places aroundthe world.
Spent, uh, spent quite a fewyears in, uh, in Bali, in
Australia, in Thailand, uh,before coming back to the uk I
moved to the UK historically in,uh, in 2003 and, and got into
(08:04):
the world of men's work in 2012through the Amazing Mankind
Project.
And that initiation kind of ledme into much deeper work of, uh,
just exploring, exploring who Iam as a man, starting to, uh,
look at the shadow within me andquestioning what kind of man do
(08:27):
I wanna be in this world.
In 2014, I was blessed to becomea dad, and that was a game
changer for me.
Nothing.
Nothing prepared me for that.
And that's been an amazingjourney that I've been on, uh,
recently, well, not so recentlyanymore, but I've been, uh, I've
been, uh, a therapist and acoach for men, um, men who are
(08:53):
often very successful and strongon the outside, but feel a sense
of emptiness and feel likesomething's missing on the
inside.
Men who might be in, uh, goodrelationships, good marriages, I
should say, and they're workingtheir asses off and still a, a
feeling of like, there'ssomething missing.
(09:13):
This is not this.
I'm not who I'm meant to be in asense.
So helping men come back home,helping men reconnect with that
light, helping, uh, men healthemselves, if you will.
James (09:29):
So we did chat before we came on live, and you wanted to
talk about.
Being a father, being a singlefather, and how that has shaped
you to become the parent youare.
So tell me, tell me more aboutthat.
Ori (09:51):
Yeah, so relationships don't always work out the way
we'd like them to, or weenvision in the beginning, and
when I started this journey ofbecoming a dad and becoming as
the, as the operating word here,because we don't become mothers,
we don't become dads.
The day that, you know, kids gethanded to us, we become one.
(10:14):
It's something that we, thatgrows, that we grow into.
And as I said, you know, therelationship never really lived
up to the potential that it had.
And when my daughter was aboutfive, we came back to the uk.
We were living in Australiabefore then.
(10:36):
And I realized that, uh, I, inthe relationship, in the dynamic
between us, I'm the one whoactually brings in the sense of
security, the sense ofstability, the sense of, uh,
consistency in, um, in, in theparenting.
So I took on the role of takingmy daughter full-time.
(10:58):
This was a role that, this wassomething I didn't quite know
what I was going into.
I said, yes, I can do this.
I just wanted to be able,because we were traveling a lot,
we're moving around a lot,living this kind of very
Instagrammable life before.
But I really wanted to give my,my daughter, uh, just plant some
roots and stay, stay in oneplace.
I had this very strong feelingthat she, she wants her own
(11:19):
bedroom and she wants, uh, tohave her toys long-term because
again, we were moving a lotbefore.
And, um, I stepped into thisrole not knowing what I'm going
into.
Uh, just saying, yeah, I can do,I, can I, I'll, I'll figure it
out.
And mom is in the picture, ofcourse, the whole time.
But I was the one that startedmaking all the decisions and all
(11:42):
the, uh, providing the childwith the safety and security
that, uh, that she needed at thetime and still needs to this
day.
So this role of becoming afather is, like I said, is
becoming, it's not the, the, thefather that I was five years ago
is not the father that I'm now,I see the world very
(12:02):
differently.
I see myself and my, my purposedifferently in this, on this
journey.
And it just gets, it just keepsgetting better and better
because the relationship betweenmy daughter is, uh, is one that
I could only dream of in termsof the, the synchronicity
between us.
We happen to be born on the sameday as well.
(12:23):
We share a birthday.
So there's a lot ofsynchronicity in the way that
we, um, that we act and behave.
And it's, uh.
It's become the biggest gift.
It's become a huge, it's becomea huge part of my identity, I
should say, being, uh, being adad.
James (12:42):
So it's, it's hard for me to relate because I've, I've
literally, I've got no childrenat its moment in time.
But how has becoming a fatherreally shaped you to who you've
become?
Ori (13:01):
So, being a parent, as every parent will know, is so
much more than just the mundane,everyday acts of, um, you know,
getting up in the morning,making breakfast, making sure
that all the logistics are, areworking.
That's just the, that's justthe, the very basic of just
making sure that, you know,things are prepared.
(13:21):
And the child has everythingthey need on a day-to-day basis,
to, to live life in a, in asafe, secure way, in a way that,
where they know that they don'tneed to worry about anything.
That's the, that that's a given.
And that, and, and then you fromthe start of that is something
that I, that I'm bringing withme.
But where the change, really,where the change really happens
(13:43):
is in the way that I relate toher and her stories and what
she's not sewing and what she'snot saying.
How I attune my, how I learn toattune myself to what's
happening in her world.
So to really sense, to reallyheighten my senses, which is
something I didn't have beforeto acutely understand what she's
(14:06):
experiencing.
What she needs that she's notsaying.
Kids do not say what they need.
You can ask them a hundred timesand it's, you still, you'll
never really get a clearunderstanding of how they're
feeling or what they need bypurely asking them straight,
simple questions.
So it's really understandingacute, like attuning is the, is
(14:27):
the key word here, to really seewhat's, what's under the surface
and what am I, and how am Ishowing up in the world?
How is my shit impacting her?
How is my nervous systemimpacting her, and what do I
need to do to keep that awayfrom her?
She does not need that.
(14:48):
This is my stuff.
So how can I create a spacewithin myself to hold her and
hold space for her, foreverything that comes up for her
without me being reactive,without me?
Um, just.
Going from a place of, uh,responding to her from a place
of fight or flight or not enoughcoffee.
(15:12):
So, uh, yeah, that's, that's theessence of it.
James (15:16):
Super important because, uh, last week I was having a
discussion with this lady aboutrelationships and how men holds
have to men being able to holdspace for women for them to
allow whatever needs to come upto come up.
(15:38):
So, how do you personally go,Bri, you know, how do you hold
space for your child?
Ori (15:50):
I hold space for, for her name's Mika, and I hold space
for Mika, first and foremost byholding space for myself.
So every parent will.
We'll know that if we do not putthe oxygen, oxygen mask on
ourselves first, we cannot holdspace or be there for anyone
(16:10):
else.
So, learning to look aftermyself first, and this is not
something that I knew, Idefinitely did not know this,
you know, when I, when I firstbecame a dad, and it took me
many years to realize that, uh,taking on more than I can handle
will backfire.
(16:32):
So, holding space for mydaughter is in the form of, you
know, picking her up from schoolor today she's at camp, but
picking her up, picking her up,and showing deep interest for
what's happening, what'shappening in her, what happened
in that day, not just the drylogistical questions of how was
(16:55):
your day?
What did you have for lunch?
What's underneath that?
What are the, you know, what arethe little dynamics and make
space, understand her rhythm.
And that's a big one.
Understand her rhythm of theday, when she wants to share,
when she wants to expressherself more.
And anticipating friction.
(17:15):
Anticipating where, where Imight present a boundary that
she might not, uh, that shemight not flow with.
And be okay with that.
And also question, how do I, howmuch am I attached to that, to
that boundary, to that, uh, youknow, laying down, laying down
strict rules?
Is that really serving?
(17:36):
Is that really serving my needsor her needs?
James (17:41):
Yeah.
Uh, just a couple of thingsthere.
Firstly, you had mentionedabout.
Giving yourself space first andforemost.
And that's so important.
Whether you're in a relationshipwith your child, a relationship
with your, um, partner,relationship with your parents
or other, other people.
It's us first.
(18:01):
And I think sometimes we can getinto the habit of giving our
energy away to everybody elseexcept ourselves.
And I think I can see, you cansee that so much when people get
run down and people get into,um, de depressed, stressed, and
(18:21):
it's realizing that it's, atthis moment in time we're most
important.
But then there comes ourdaughter, becomes our wife, and
once we know that we canprotect, it's about really
feeding ourselves first.
We can then give that toeverybody else because we, for.
And then they become four.
(18:43):
But then also you mentionedabout understanding your
daughter's knee, but underneathnow that becomes, that's for,
for the men out there, that'squite a complicated thing.
And I think it's, we getcommunication.
It's communication.
It's, but it's also being ableto attune to their energy and
(19:04):
our own energy.
And it's about building thistrust within ourself, first and
foremost.
And once you start to build thistrust within, within ourselves,
then we can start to sink in toother people.
So I'm, I, I, I must admit, I amvery good at sinking into people
and what they're thinking andthat kind of thing.
(19:25):
But for the everyday man, howcan they start to build these
skills?
Ori (19:33):
Great insights, James.
I like that.
You know, it really comes downto.
The, the basics or the basics ofsort of mindfulness and slowing
down and allowing ourselves tolisten and to, to listen and
feel ourself first.
So are you, do you, do you giveyourself enough time to, to
(19:55):
meditate, to you make space forthose kind of things?
It doesn't have to be, you know,proper just sitting down, you
know, closing your eyes.
It can be just a quiet walk, aquiet walk in nature.
Just listen to the trees.
Just listen to the, to your ownbreath, anything which allows
you to slow down, let things up,come up to the surface and
notice what's coming in inside.
And that is the, that these arethe fundamentals of building a,
(20:16):
building, any kind of emotionalinter intelligence where you can
then be attuned to other people.
And it's hard for the dads outthere who don't see their kids
often enough, who are separatedfrom them.
Uh, it's hard for anyone whodoes not, who is not in a space
where they.
(20:37):
Get to do the, may, may, theymight not even feel safe to do
those kind of things in, incertain relationships, but it
really comes down to allowingourself to do that.
Some people have not been ever,ever been allowed to do that.
And I mean that, I genuinelymean.
It's not, it's never, for somepeople, it's never felt safe to
slow down and listen because ofwhat might come up.
(21:01):
It's, it can be scary for a lotof people.
So in, in a, in a typicalcoercive, uh, family, family
home where the kids are beingshut down when the kids are
being constantly being givenactivities, being told, okay.
Right.
You've gotta, you've, you'vegot, you know, after school,
another, another club, anothermaths lesson, lesson, another
(21:23):
something to do.
The kids can never feelthemselves.
And that is a, that's afascinating, that's a
subconscious way of the parentsjust like preventing their kids
from ever.
Growing internally because theparents cannot, cannot bear to
feel what's happening for them.
It's too much.
So you'd rather, you know, pileon more and more activities.
(21:44):
Some of them can be evenpositive ones, you know,
constantly taking kids to, toactivities.
So they run around so they'renot fully, so they're not
internalizing what's happeningfor them.
But, uh, the fear, you know,kids have a fear of being bored
and parents have a, an evenbigger fear of the kids being
bored because, oh my God, whatmight happen if the kids are
bored?
I've got to, I will have to holdthat.
(22:06):
So bored in our societies becomea, you know, a big no-no.
James (22:13):
I can relate usually to boredom.
I, so I'm obsessed in personalspiritual development, which is
a good obsession to have.
But what I do find is sometimesI get bored doing certain things
and when I get bored doingcertain things.
I allow addictions, like socialmedia, like, um, yeah, like
(22:38):
social media to get to come intothe forefront.
So rather than being bored, I'malways like, you see yourself on
the screens or watching filmsand yeah, you're right.
Boredoms almost being seen as,as the enemy.
Don't get bored.
Don't get bored.
(22:58):
Just do, keep doing something.
Go for a walk or, you know, go,go on a screen.
Keep yourself occupied.
Ori (23:05):
My dad, James, my, my, my late dad had a, uh, wooden
plaque in his, uh, in his studyand it said, don't just sit
there, worry.
And that is the essence of, youknow, don't just sit there, do
nothing.
You've got to always keepyourself occupied.
Just don't, yeah.
We need to just, we do need tolearn to sit down and do nothing
again.
James (23:26):
That's it.
Um, one thing I did good at,good at doing is going
internally in my side myself andspeaking to the parts.
So I am very good at likeboredom comes up.
I'll be able to have aconversation, what does that
boredom actually want?
But then it's also actuallybreathing through that
(23:47):
discomfort.
So when you breathe, I find whenI breathe through the
discomfort, you always findsomething good at the other
side.
Ori (23:56):
Absolutely a hundred percent.
'cause you're, you, you, you'remaking space.
And that's the, that's the onething we all crave for is more,
you know, more expansion, morespace, more space.
You know, in other word for itis abundance to just like,
having, believing that there ismore.
'cause we're so many of us areconditioned to, you know,
there's not enough, we are notenough, there is not enough
time.
We're waking up and there'slike, everything is not enough.
(24:19):
So when we breathe into thatspace, we're reminded that there
is more.
And the feeling that there ismore where, you know, this is
like the universe is expandingwhere humans are, you know,
contracting.
So, yeah, big one.
James (24:32):
Well, this idea that we, we want to, sometimes people
have big, big dreams.
They wanna go out into theworld, they want to achieve
this, they wanna achieve that,but they don't allow the space
for their ideas or for theinspiration to come in.
And this is, this is what kindof space does for us.
(24:54):
It gives us the inspiration,gives us ideas.
It allows us to just breatheinto the parts ourselves, which
have been neglected, which theycan be our diamonds, they can be
our gold.
And it's within these parts thatwe can quite often find our
purpose.
Ori (25:16):
Well done.
James (25:18):
And just so we're clear, this as well, I wanted to
mention, I wanted to talk aboutsafety.
So you mentioned that somepeople don't feel safe enough
who have the space to becomemindful to meditate.
(25:38):
So how can people start tocreate that safety in
themselves?
So obviously, I'll give you anexample.
So, um, um.
To explicit is a podcast aboutmen or talk about men.
There might be this man, this aperson who, um, struggle is
always keeping himself occupiedby different things.
He doesn't feel safe beingbored.
(25:59):
He doesn't feel safe, basicallydoing nothing.
How can he start to makehimself?
How can he start to feel alittle bit more safer so that he
can perhaps spend one or twominutes in silence or doing more
mindful techniques?
Ori (26:20):
First of all, let's address the word safety for a second.
Most people don't use that word.
It's, that's a, that's more of atherapeutic word.
What people will actually say isthat, oh no, I'm too busy.
I've, I've got, I've got stuffto do.
You know, there, there's alwayssomething on the to-do list, and
if you look underneath that,you'll, you'll realize that, you
know, I need to, I need to feelsafe enough to know that there
(26:41):
will be more time, or that therewill be more.
Um, opportunities will come, youknow, I don't wanna miss that
opportunity.
So the, when we, what mostpeople are addressing is the
scarcity rather than theabundance of actually allowing
yourself to just allowingyourself to chill.
Allowing yourself to go for awalk in nature.
Allowing yourself to close youreyes when you need to.
(27:04):
You don't need another coffee.
You don't need the morestimulants, you don't need to
distract yourself with, uh,social media, shopping, porn
work, anything.
Just what if you just sat thereand allowed yourself to do
something that, you know, even agood old hobby, in the sense, a
hobby that does not require any,any kind of, uh, dopamine or ex
(27:28):
excitement, you know, good oldcarpentry or so gardening.
Gardening is, gardening ismeditative.
You know, go fishing, that'smeditative.
Go paint something that'smeditative.
That's a, any space that kind ofallows you to just slow down and
go into some gentle, uh, flowstate.
Great.
Find what's, find what's rightfor you.
(27:49):
I think this, you know, maybesafety is not the right w word
to think of.
It is like, just allow yourselfto be you.
Come back, come back to self andthis is the best you want to,
you want to do something goodfor your, for your kids.
Do something good for yourself,and that's the, you know, that,
that should be the biggest thingever.
Allow yourself to go away.
(28:10):
You know, so often I'll reachout to friends and I say friends
who are dads, and I would say,Hey, let's go for a hike on the
weekend.
Oh, no, we've got, we've gotta,we've gotta do something with
the kids.
We know we're taking them tosome something and another
trampoline park.
And you're thinking, for fuck'ssake, man, do something for
yourself.
Let yourself unwind.
Let yourself recharge.
(28:31):
Find some kind of like miniretreat or something for a few
hours.
Spend time with your, with yourmates not drinking, just.
Chilling.
Just being, being among peoplewho, who don't need anything
from you.
James (28:46):
How has fatherhood really evolved in your life and how,
and, and I'm interested as well,'cause with the men that you
coach, have you seen thefatherhood evolve inside
themselves?
Ori (29:02):
Oh, massively.
Massively.
Because when men, let's justtalk for about the clients for a
second, because the men whoallow themselves to process the,
uh, process, their wounds, theirtraumas, will allow themselves
to, uh, move, shift some energywithin.
(29:25):
They show up as better, asbetter parents.
There's so much lightness there.
That doesn't mean, you know, menare so often being seen as rigid
or tough among kids.
Mostly because they're carrying,they're carrying, you know,
wounds of being told off andbeing maybe beaten up as kids.
(29:45):
So, and the fear of, you know,so many men carry new, new dads,
carry the fear of doingsomething wrong.
You know, oh, be careful.
Don't do that.
You know, that's, you know,being constantly being told off
that something might happen.
So many to first and foremostneed to be give, given the space
to grow internally and justlearn things their way.
(30:07):
They do things differently fromthe moms, and that's fine.
There's no, um, you can, you, wecan, we can, you know, talk
about forever, about the rightway to do something, the wrong
way to do something.
But ultimately, men, the menI've worked with who were given
a chance to process stuffinternally to talk about their
(30:28):
very challenging childhoodexperiences or, or burdens in
the inner, the relationship.
We're able to show up better totheir, uh, to their kids.
But first and foremostthemselves, you know, this is a
very selfish, you know, we cantalk about, you know, parenting
has the, has the, obviously hasthe biggest sort of side, which
(30:49):
is of being in service.
But it has to first and foremostcome from a selfish place where
I am the good selfish, where I'mreally, first of all nurturing
myself so I can nurture my kidsand my, and my wife, my family.
As for me, like I said, it's anongoing, it's an ongoing
journey.
(31:10):
And I see I'm able to have,she's 10, my daughter is 10, and
I'm, I'm able to share certainthings about my life and I'll be
a, I'll give you a great examplefor something that, uh, evolved
during probably the hardestphase for me as a dad.
(31:30):
And it's a bit of a cliche.
Because it's Covid.
And Covid started off okay.
I was like, great.
More time at home with mydaughter.
You know, we can go on walks, wecan just, uh, spend more time
playing and doing the things we,we enjoy.
But as time went on and on andon this accumulated, I realized
I'm not looking after myself.
(31:51):
I don't have time to, because Ihad to be with her.
I could not leave her.
She was too young to be left athome.
So I did not get a moment to,uh, meditate or get a moment to
just listen, to put the, even,you know, something simple as
just putting on my music at homebecause she would want to listen
(32:12):
to her, you know, an audiobookor something.
That's, uh, back then there was,there were kids were watching
also of YouTube stuff onYouTube.
Uh, so basically not being ableto look after myself back then.
And I remember she was quiteyoung and I was, I remember
snapping at her and.
She noticed because she wasspending more and more time with
(32:33):
me, she could see how importantthis, this idea of meditating
is.
Meditating is simple as I don'twant to, you know, dramatize it
too much, but really the senseof just closing your eyes,
connecting with your breath, andjust giving herself a few
minutes on your own simplestuff.
And I remember her saying, ifafter I snapped at her, she
(32:53):
said, dad, you, you didn'tmeditate today, did you?
No, I didn't.
I didn't, didn't get a chance.
And without passing, with,without passing the, uh, the
blame onto her and without, uh,without her feeling like it's
her that was preventing me fromlooking after myself, it was a
(33:16):
good reminder.
And she could see that I need tolook after myself.
And kids need to see that.
Kids need to know that parentsdo need to look after
themselves.
It's essential because so oftenparents, I.
Uh, both moms and dads do stufffor themselves away from their
kids, and the kids don't knowthat mom and dad need to
recharge.
They're not seen as, you know,as, uh, they're seen as, you
(33:39):
know, superheroes.
They don't need to recharge.
They can.
They're always, they're alwayson.
Yeah.
So, uh, she saw that.
And the biggest one, James, youknow, being able to apologize to
my daughter and saying to herafter snapping at her, I'm deep.
(34:00):
I'm, I'm genuinely sorry forthat.
That's not yours.
That's mine.
Obviously, in, in, in language,inappropriate language.
What you did may have not beenthe best.
You know, you shouldn't havedone that thing you did.
But the way I reacted, the way Iresponded is me, is my shit.
(34:21):
I should not have done that.
And this comes back to thefundamentals of all
relationships, especially, youknow, among couples and
friendships.
Even, you know, the notion oftear and repair.
So a fracture happened.
The sooner we heal it, thequicker it will heal.
(34:44):
So this notion of this ideathat, you know, me as a dad and
all parents should do this, islearn to apologize quickly to
your kids.
They may have done somethingwrong, but it's you who chose to
snap.
It's you who chose to go into,you know, some, uh, to
(35:05):
catastrophizing space of like,you know, fight or flight.
How you respond to the kids isthe absolute fundamentals of
creating a space environment foryour kid to be themselves.
I can still be, I can still, Ican still have a very harsh, uh,
you know, boundary and say, whatyou're doing is unacceptable,
(35:26):
but I did not need to lose myshit.
And if I do, I've gottaapologize for it.
James (35:33):
Mm-hmm.
I love the way your daughteractually realized what you
needed in that moment.
It's almost like she, and Ithink what you are saying with
regards to they need to see yourecharging yourself, they almost
(35:53):
see it.
That's a boundary.
They see you rechargingyourself.
So they know that basically ifdaddy is recharged and
meditative, then he's, he'sgonna be good.
But at the same time, youputting that down yourself and
saying, I just need five minutesor three minutes to sit down and
(36:15):
to breathe.
Can I have that time?
It's almost showing them how tocreate boundaries.
Ori (36:22):
It's also showing them how to look after themselves.
Yeah.
It's also showing them that, youknow, when they're, wherever
they are, you know, at school,uh, anywhere they go, if things
are not working the way theyneed them to work, just go away.
Just get some space.
You don't need to stay in the,you don't need to stay in that
friction in that fight.
(36:42):
Just walk away, look afteryourself, breathe and come back.
So back in those, you know,lockdown days, the need to go
out for a walk in nature wasfundamental, was the, uh, was,
you know, it was non-negotiablein a way, and it stuck with
that.
Well, my daughter still knows tothis day that you know me.
(37:03):
We have some of our best bondingand our best connection on
walks, and she sees that.
She sees the state that I'm, I.
I'm in, I'll, I'm not on myphone, I'm just with her in
nature.
I'm present.
And that's all kids want, wantparents to be.
That's their, if there's onething, one word that the kids
(37:23):
want is their parents to bepresent because kids are, kids
are present, they're reacting.
Young kids especially, uh,they're very, very present.
Everything that's happening islike in the, in the moment.
If something goes wrong, theyreact, they respond, you know,
immediately.
So one of the things, you know,again, back to what I realized
back in the, uh, in those earlydays of, uh, single parenting,
(37:47):
is how challenging I found it toget to her, to, uh, to the highs
that she had.
She's very, she's a very joyful,exuberant little person.
And sitting with my, the, thepains, the challenges, the, the
(38:08):
madness of, you know, back inlockdown days, for example, and
the, and the weight that it hadon me, it was quite depressive.
There's no other word, you know,way to describe it.
And Covid was not the only timethat I felt, you know, you know,
some, some kind of sense of, uh,of heaviness of, you know,
depression and to be there, tobe present and to be there for
(38:29):
my child when her energy, Evaabrasions are so high and, you
know, pure god-like, and I'mbringing this weight, this
heavy, heavy weight with me.
That's been, that's beendefinitely been the hardest.
That's been the challenge.
Biggest I.
Sort of challenge for me as, um,in my parenting and the way that
(38:50):
I've learned to handle it is by,again, going back to coming back
to myself, to finding some kindof, uh, compassion and love for
myself, and accepting where I'mat.
I cannot be where she is and Idon't need to feel bad because
she's so, because her energy'sso high and my energy's so low,
(39:13):
and another coffee will not, youknow, will not resolve.
That really is, it's within me.
I'm sitting with something andI've got to resolve that.
But finding, finding some, somekind of love and compassion for
myself and the state that I'm inwould ultimately shine back on
her.
James (39:35):
So for those men out there who perhaps struggle with
love and compassion forthemselves.
How can they really, what,what's the first or couple of
first step they can start totake to'cause you, you are me.
You are mentioning about howduring lockdown, there's times
(39:57):
when you got frustrated anddepressed or stressed, shall I
say?
And this is probably quite acommon thing, especially when
you are in a space and there'sno escape.
So for the men, all, all womenout there who might struggle,
(40:18):
when it comes to really lovingthese parts of themselves, how
can they start to navigate that?
Ori (40:29):
It's a journey.
It really is a journey.
And it starts with, with thesmallest things, find, find
small things about yourself thatyou do appreciate, that you do.
Like write them down.
No.
It really, it's, it's simple asthat.
I mean, I say simple.
It really, it requires some kindof, it requires some kind of
work.
As you know, this, this whole,this whole journey is work.
(40:52):
So sit down, write it yourself.
If you feel comfortable enoughto even put it on a post-it note
in a place where you can see andremind yourself some beautiful
attribute about yourself thatyou do like, that you do
appreciate, that you aresomething that you can connect,
you can connect with.
For one person, it'll be thefact that they've got a, maybe a
(41:13):
big loving heart for anotherperson.
It might be that they'regenerous, another person.
It might be that they're,anything that's, that they feel
good about.
Start small and, and, and buildit up.
I mean, I'm feeling, I'm, andknowing what's been very helpful
for me, James, is going back, isremembering I.
(41:36):
Where did things start?
Go pear shaped for me.
You know, like, like weestablished earlier, I was not
born, uh, I was not born like Iam now.
So at some state in my life Iwas, you know, much more.
I carried a much bigger light, Icarried much more, had my
daughter's kind of exuberanceand excitement.
And then somebody poured lots ofpeople and, you know, society
(41:59):
poured, um, poured water overthat and diminished, and that
light started to diminish.
So I started as I learned, well,I cannot be this and I cannot be
that, and I'm not allowed to saycertain things and I've got to,
I've gotta please and peoplewill like me if I show up one
way and not another way.
(42:21):
So I could not be my full self.
So if you wanna start, learn howto show some compassion to
yourself, maybe go back to thatlittle boy, that little girl who
actually did have a much biggerlight and connect with that.
That's been, that's been, I knowthat it's been very, very
helpful for me because, becauseit's a lot easier having empathy
(42:43):
and compassion for a youngbeing.
You know, you see a puppy, yousee a baby, you see something,
something vulnerable, small andvulnerable.
It's a lot easier to connectwith that.
And that being is in us.
He, she, you know, that youngerpart in ourselves is still
(43:03):
there.
Go back to it anytime you wantto.
That little boy did not mean todo something wrong.
He was told that he didsomething wrong and he was told
off and he was shamed and he wasmade to feel like, you know,
that version of him isunacceptable.
And if you carry on the way thatyou do, you'll never get to
(43:24):
anywhere in life.
So maybe that, maybe that littleboy didn't, never, never had to
hear those words and.
He needs healing.
James (43:36):
Yeah, that brings in quite nicely.
I've mentioned it a few times ina child healing on this podcast,
and I think it's, it's soimportant because quite often
our actual traumas start whenwe're very young, and it's being
(43:57):
able to allow ourselves to starton the journey of healing that
inner child.
But also what I ripped down hereis playfulness.
You know, I, I, I, playfulnessis one of my biggest values, the
third biggest, yet I feel I'vebeen feeling seriously blocked
(44:17):
around it.
What I've come to realize isit's just doing something silly,
like, go back here on thispodcast.
Now, in this moment, that issilly, but it's playful and
that's the kind of stuff thatthe inner child loves to do.
(44:38):
Inner moment, silly, um, justcrazy stuff.
And, and I don't mean jumping upa plane and things like that,
but it's more running aroundjust doing what makes you feel
good, going into nature, doingsome artwork.
It could be, um, climbing trees,building dens.
(45:00):
I remember as a child, love todo that.
Just by going into this innerchild and this playfulness, we
start to bring ourselves backinto, I feel back into your
childhood, which then brings us,which then I think, and
obviously I've got no child torelate this to by saying, I've
got a nephew, you can thenrelate to the child more easier.
Ori (45:23):
I love that.
I love that so much.
You know, we'll learn so muchthrough play.
Kids especially, you know, asparents so often say, stop
playing, stop messing around,stop playing.
What the fuck are you doing?
I mean, that is there.
The, in these moments, kidslearn more than any, more than
(45:43):
any other time.
I mean, these are the momentsthat kids do not need to
activate.
They need to memorize things asthey sit and do in school, sit
and remember things.
This, these are the momentswhere they actually embody
their, their whole bodies learn,experiencing something.
And joy, which is a byproduct ofplayfulness, is, is a gateway
(46:08):
motion to our sovereign.
So for us to stand up and be inour healthy, in our healthy
kings and our healthy queens, weneed to connect with joy.
And you can, you can onlyimagine, you can only sort of
visualize older, sort of olderpeople who are being silly and
they, they, they've got nothingto prove.
(46:29):
And, and it's funny because theydon't need to, they no longer
need to be in the roles theycarry their whole lives, and
they can just be, you know, oldand mumbling and silly.
And it's funny and it'sbeautiful.
And that is, you know, like Isaid, a gateway emotion to that,
to that space of, um, how shouldI call this?
A space of clarity andsovereignty.
(46:54):
But yes, place, and it's a, wedo, we, I spend, I.
One of the things that, youknow, it's, it is not always
easy'cause I'm not al not alwaysin the mood.
And my daughter will say, Hey,come and come and play with me.
And we'll start with somethingthat's just very banal.
Maybe play Uno or something thatdoes not require too much
(47:15):
playfulness, but that often getscarried into something much.
We start, you know, teasing eachother and that leads to
something else and it starts,the playfulness grows.
But absolutely, I'm with you,with you on that.
James (47:27):
Mm-hmm.
And so it's, it's exploring itourselves, isn't it, first and
foremost.
And then we can instigate itinto the world.
Definitely.
We, we discussion beforehand howwhen you've got two parents who
are separated, it's more thanlikely it's gonna be the mother
who takes the child.
(47:49):
So what do you feel is missingin how men are seen or
supported?
Ori (47:58):
It's a painful one, James.
It's a very, very painful onebecause the way that our system
is set up is one that in mostcases, in a very arbitrary way,
uh, courts will give the momfull custody and the dads will
get to see their kids once aweek, every other week.
And it's criminal.
It's absolutely criminal.
You are, you are turning thedads into some pariah that is,
(48:21):
uh, relegated and demoted to afigure, some distant figure in
their lives.
He's no longer, he's no longerable to embody being a father.
He becomes some kind of, youknow, some guardian, some
someone who comes and sees themon the weekend.
And it's tragic.
There's, um, I would say inthese cases, do whatever you can
(48:45):
to find some kind of mediation,some kind of sensemaking where
kids, where the parents are notfighting over who gets to have
the kid.
It's not important.
Really what The only thingthat's important, the only thing
that's important is that thechildren experiencing having as
much of dad and as much of momas possible, and both parents
(49:07):
need to remember that commitmentthey made when they decided to
have the kids.
And you say that a, you know, apuppy is not for Christmas and
nor are kids.
It's, uh, kids are for life.
This is a journey that you'vegot to be there.
I mean, it sounds so dumb sayingit, but it is.
(49:27):
You really, you, you, you'vecommitted to something.
You've brought life into thisworld and you are given an
opportunity here.
This is, this is the biggestgift life gives us to pass
something on to the nextgeneration and to shape and to
help shape the next, nextgeneration.
I'm not fond of the word raisingchildren.
(49:49):
I'm, I prefer, you know, holdingspace for them.
So you've given this opportunityto hold space and care and watch
someone grow and give them the,you know, the nourishment and
the, uh, nutrition they need tobecome their full selves.
There's nothing more for me, atleast, there's nothing more
gratifying.
(50:10):
And I would just say, yeah, justdo what you need to do.
So both mom and dad can be inthe picture and each one can
share their, their good, theirgold with the, with the kids.
Dads are needed.
James.
It's not, it's not even a, it'snot even a question.
I mean, we know this and we seethis, uh, in statistics in the,
(50:33):
we see how absent in homes wherethere's an absent dad, we see.
Higher.
We see kids, uh, falling ineducation.
We see kids falling into a lotmore into crime, and yeah, dad's
are needed.
It's a given.
James (50:52):
So, uh, so regards to your clients or people you know,
who perhaps are single parents,how, how has that impacted the
child?
Ori (51:05):
Not having a dad, you mean?
James (51:07):
Yeah, I mean a dad, and I suppose in your case it's the,
it is the other way around,isn't it?
You might, you might notice how,how has it impacted the child as
a whole?
Ori (51:21):
We know that a child needs a, at least one parent to be
there for them andwholeheartedly hold space for
them.
We need at least kids need atleast one parent to really be
there to create some, a safe,uh, some kind of safe attachment
where the child knows that theycan be their full selves and
(51:41):
they can develop and expresstheir full selves and be be
loved no matter what.
In homes where I'll, I'll, I'lljust talk about my, talk about
sort of my, uh, my clientswhere, where client, where I
need to be careful here.
I need to be careful with thelanguage, uh, that I'm using
(52:03):
here.
Just don't want to, I justdon't, don't wanna give away
any, any identities, but kidssuffer.
Let's, let's just put it, put itplainly.
Kids suffer.
Kids need, deeply need both momand dad's presence and.
When the, when they're not thereor when the kids feel like mom
(52:25):
and dad are fighting over themor being are belittling each
other, the kids feel it and thekids start to have the kids
start leaning in one in one way.
And it's sad.
It's not, it's not healthy foranyone.
James (52:40):
That brings in quite nicely to the, the balance of
masculine and feminine.
If you have just your mother,then the child's gonna, i i is
this, is this right?
In thinking the child's gonna bemore swayed towards the feminine
energy, depending on thatperson.
And then obviously for most men.
(53:02):
So if you think about it withthe, with the child, if, if
she's being brought up in a veryfeminine environment, they might
be more as they call it in men,the nice guys, is this right?
Yeah.
And I.
And then on the opposite end,they can probably, they've been
up in a, in a very masculine,masculine environment, it can
(53:25):
have the impact of, um, maybethe alpha male.
Is that right?
Ori (53:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Ultimately, when a child isbeing, when a child is being
exposed, uh, to very much too,too much or too little of either
of either one, they willnaturally lean to lean, to take
on those, take on those traits.
And we see, see this in homes,you know, when there's, where
(53:51):
fathers are, where fathers areabsent, and there's a, there's
some, there's some kind ofbelittling towards, uh, mothers
talking down, talking badly, Ishould say, uh, towards, uh,
towards their ex-husbands.
The, the kids take, the kidstake on, take that, take that
on.
And they, you know, they carrythat on throughout lives.
(54:12):
And you and I have seen this inthe Mankind Project with, uh,
men who.
Men who carry this wound ofgrowing up, of growing up
without, without a dad.
I'll, I'll tell you, I'll talkabout myself for a, for a
moment.
So I grew up, my dad passed awaywhen I was 12 and before, before
then, he was sick for manyyears.
(54:34):
So I grew up in a, in ahousehold.
There was very, there wasextremely, um, feminine, I
should say, and not, not in the,not necessarily in the
healthiest possible way.
Dad was, dad was unwell and wasunable to show up as a healthy,
in his healthy masculine.
So I didn't particularly, Ididn't absorb, I didn't absorb
(54:56):
strong, I didn't have thestronger boundaries and
discipline and the things thatyou'd want a dad therefore, to
balance, I should say, tobalance, uh, the mother.
And what I saw is a very.
What we call a crumbling king, aking who felt he's not enough, a
(55:18):
king.
He who felt he's, he's, he'sunable to provide and carrying a
lot of shame around that.
And that's the kind of, that'sthe kind of father I grew up
with.
That was, and you know, lookingback it was very hard, but
looking back, it's be, it's mademe the man, it's made me the man
I am today because I've learnedto, I've, I've learned to
(55:40):
integrate that and make sense ofthat, of that experience.
He passed away when I was 12 andI continued to integrate through
the grief of not having him, Icontinued to integrate the
absence of the masculine.
It definitely affected andimpacted the way that I showed
up in, uh, in my, in my malegroups.
And I never needed to be.
(56:03):
And, you know, I never need,felt like I needed to be some
kind of alpha male, but I didneed to prove myself.
So to make a long, to make along story short, it's, uh, if
we, if ultimately we canintegrate whatever wounds,
whatever, whatever life givesus, if we do the healing, if we,
(56:24):
if we process it at some pointin life and make the most of it,
there's a gift in all of it.
James (56:34):
Mm.
Yeah.
Nicely, nicely put.
Um, so with regards to you andyour daughter, how, how did you
start to start to integrate morefeminine traits or so in more
feminine energy with regards toyour daughter?
(56:54):
Because obviously you weresaying earlier that you've
taken, you are there majority ofthe time, but it's kind of the
idea that with being a man.
How can you personally start tohelp her to embrace her feminine
side a bit more so it becomes abit more balanced
Ori (57:17):
just by being there?
So the feminine energy is afeminine, is an energy of just
holding space.
Is an energy of, is an energy offlow, is an energy of
acceptance, is an energy ofnurturing.
All those things are happeningall the time.
It's not for me.
I've had to, you know, I'mfinding a healthy balance
between the two, between thesetting, between the masculine
(57:38):
side, which is the we settingboundaries and the providing,
protecting and providingsecurity and the nurturing side
of just holding whatever'sthere.
You know, the masculine side isthe side of doing, the masculine
side is the side of lookingafter the logistics and making
breakfast and dinner and make,doing the shopping and paying
bills and cleaning here.
That's the masculine, thefeminine side is the side is the
(58:02):
side that sits with her thatjust listens.
It's the side that just, uh.
It is the side that is a partthat's in, in me as well.
You know, I wanna sit and cuddleher.
I wanna sit and read books withher.
I wanna sit and spend time withher.
It's for me.
I mean, this is somethingthat's, uh, and to some degree,
that's the joy.
(58:22):
That's the fun.
These are the fun moments of,of, of parenting.
You know, leaning into that.
Leaning into the, into thatside.
Yes.
There's a lot of doing, and we,we tick a lot of boxes of going
places and traveling and doingthings.
That's fun.
But within those moments, it'sactually, they're just the
wondering in nature, or justplaying a game of just getting
(58:44):
lost.
Mm.
Which are, which are the momentsI remember.
And they'll re
James (58:48):
Yeah.
Ori (58:49):
That, that she takes in.
That's the, that's the feminineside.
James (58:55):
I, I can feel that.
I love that.
I love the.
The, the exploring, the, thesurrendering and the, the sense
of allowing, it's, I've justdone, I'm doing this money
membership thing, and they talkabout masculine and feminine.
And the masculine side is the,the action doing it is the doing
(59:16):
to create the money.
It's the planning, it's the,it's the, the action, bang,
bang, bang, bang.
But in order to have all thisaction and bringing in money,
people forget about thereceiving, the surrendering, the
ability to, uh, to relax.
So you, you, you action whateveryou need to action.
(59:38):
Then you relax and you do theaction.
You relax and we forget we're,we're in this society of doing,
doing, doing.
And so there's this idea that.
Just surrendering is so, such anice thing to do.
And it's, it's hard.
It's, it is hard because I'vebeen brought up this mentality
I've got to do, do, do to make,um, to create a business, to, to
(01:00:01):
achieve stuff.
But that surrendering andlearning to surrender is a whole
new level of acceptance.
Ori (01:00:12):
I'll give you an example.
I love that.
And I'll give you an example youreminded me of.
So she's very creative, sits anddraws a lot, and in that
surrendering is making themistakes, is learning to accept
the mistakes that she makes whenshe's, when she'll work on a
piece for a very, very longtime.
Something that she might wannasubmit to school and accept and
(01:00:32):
love herself when she makes amistake.
So when she was younger, shewould make a little mistake and
then rip the whole thing up andjust, and hate the piece and,
you know, and, and cry and makeit, there'll be a big, big drama
around it, but.
The older she's, the older shegot, she's been able to sort of
accept that space.
And that's because she seesI'll, I'll be with her and I'll,
(01:00:55):
and I will show her, I will giveher, I will show her how to love
herself and the mistakes thatshe's made, and be okay with
that.
Then move on.
Mm.
Not, don't be too, don't be tooharsh.
Don't be too critical onyourself.
You've done your best.
As long as you're okay withthat, as long as you're okay
with this, with, you know,you've sat with this piece and
you've given it your best.
Or she'll, she's a, she's aswimmer as well.
(01:01:16):
So you've given your best in thecompetition.
You've, if you know, and that's,again, that's the, that's a very
strong masculine side of hers.
If you know that you've doneyour best, you come out of the
water at that point.
Relax, surrender.
Embrace yourself.
Yeah.
We see that we're, you know, inthis, this kind of dance between
the masculine and the feminine.
We do that.
(01:01:36):
We do that all the time.
Uh, and yeah, they're both,they're both, I.
We, we can never banish, we cannever sort of push, push one
side and say one is better, oneis better than the other, or
it's just with her as well.
And in my, in my own parenting,you know, embrace, bring them
all, bring them all in, make anice bread salad from them.
James (01:01:58):
Yeah.
Nice.
Can you finish off by telling uswhat is it that you do and how
can people get in contact?
Ori (01:02:06):
So I work, I work one-on-ones.
I work in groups, I runretreats.
And I work predominantly withmen who, who are successful on
the outside.
Strong men who feel some kindof, some sense of emptiness and
wanna connect to themselves,want to heal parts of
themselves.
(01:02:26):
And this is all with theintention of being in service,
creating some kind of legacy,being, uh, being their full,
connecting to the, to that lightthat we spoke of and being
their, their full version ofthemselves.
Mm.
So connecting to first andforemost, connecting to what is
that?
What is that treadmill thatwe're on that we feel like we
(01:02:49):
need to, who are we trying to,who are we trying to please?
Who, which, what are we tryingto prove in the world?
And come back home to this senseof self love, compassion.
So I can be there for myself soI can be there for my family, so
I can ultimately buildsomething, you know, the, the
dream, uh, where can I be found?
My website is ori lat.co uk andthe handle on all social medias
(01:03:14):
at Orla, O-R-I-L-A-T-T-E-R.
Simple.
And if anybody wants to justjump on a call, have a free
possibility call, just hit meup.
We'll start, start with a littleconversation.
James (01:03:28):
Thank you very much, aria.
Ori (01:03:30):
Thank you, James.
I really enjoyed this.
I.
In this week's episode, we talkabout everything to do with
fatherhood, how it's superimportant.
The hold space, not just foryour child, but for yourself
too.
How presence over perfection iswhat your child needs, and how
playfulness can be both yourhealer and the key to abundance
(00:21):
of joy.
Welcome to Man (00:22):
A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:43):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (01:02):
I believe we all come into this world carrying a
timeless light.
Our spirit, when we connected toit, we feel alive and at home in
ourselves, and when we losetouch with it, we feel lost,
disconnected, and separated.
Fatherhood has been a journey ofremembering that light in my
(01:25):
daughter, but also in myself.
It's from that place that I findthe tools to parent her and to
reparent the parts of me that isstill needs care.
I honestly believe that our roleas parents is to protect that
flame, to let it shine brightlyin our children and to do all
our own inner work so we don'tdim it with our own fears or
(01:48):
projections.
Good morning, Ori.
How are you?
Ori (01:52):
Good morning, James.
I'm really good.
Thank you.
James (01:55):
Can you tell me more from that statement?
Ori (02:04):
The statement really is the, uh, the essence of what I
do, what I believe in the waythat I live, the way that I see,
uh, God or light or something inwhoever's in front of me and the
people that I work with.
I believe that we all come intothis world with some kind of
(02:25):
light, some purity.
Nobody comes into this worldwith any baggage of, uh, shame,
of not enough of any kind ofguilt of anything that's wrong.
All those stories are storiesthat we take on.
These are stories that are givento us, and those stories reshape
(02:46):
us, and I think that as parents,our role is to.
Protect our kids as much aspossible.
It's impossible to keep them,uh, completely pure.
Because this world is not, isnot pure.
But, uh, it's important toprotect them and maintain that
(03:06):
light.
Keep that, remind them, thatremind the kids that that light
is in them and they are light,and that light will always stay
with them.
That is the essence of, uh, ofwhat I do.
And it's a, it's a reminder tomyself that, uh, I cannot dump
(03:27):
my baggage and my, or everythingthat I've accumulated throughout
life onto my daughter.
'cause you know, like I said,she is, she didn't do anything
to deserve that.
That's, uh, that's the essenceof it.
James (03:43):
Yes.
You see it.
Because I think as adults we gofor our own experiences as kids,
and we take on a lot of what ourparents have.
And I think it's never been atime when we understand so much
where we can actually impact andremove these projections and
(04:11):
baggage from not just ourparents, but from our lineage,
from our ancestors, from from,from the, for the whole world.
And I think you're right, it'sabout we've, we've got to do the
work.
We've got to look insideourselves to really find our own
(04:34):
light internally.
And then once we find our, ourown light, internally, shine it
on the parts of ourselves, whichwe might be struggling with.
And within them parts that wemight be struggling with.
We can befriend it, we can, um,accept it as ourselves, and then
we can embrace it.
And then when we start toembrace it, we start to shine.
(04:54):
Like there's no, no shining
Ori (04:58):
spot on.
You know, the, it, it is the,these moments when, when I work
with men that you see thatslowly they're starting to
believe that I am lovable, I amgood enough, I am beautiful, I
am worthy.
(05:18):
And to start coming back, tostart coming back to self and to
actually see those, all thosemessages, all those labels, all
that weight, heavy, heavy weightand burdens that have been put
onto us that we've beencarrying.
Again, it's not just ourparents, it's society.
It's society as a whole.
We look around and kids, kidsgrow up.
And they're looking at these,you know, demigods in the form
(05:42):
of, you know, footballers, inthe models, in the, you know,
uh, TV actors, whatnot.
And they, and a lot of the timewe feel I'll never be that.
I don't have what they, I don'thave what they have.
So, coming back to this ideathat I am, I am something, I,
I'm a child of God, I am pure.
(06:03):
And all those stories that I'vetaken on throughout the years
that have been labels, that havebeen given me are not mine.
So learning to give those labelsback is the, is the journey.
James (06:16):
Yes.
It's owning not just ourshadows, but also owning our
light.
Because you're right, I thinkI've seen it.
It, um.
Pop star concerts and footballstadiums where they literally,
you said they worship, they seethe parts of themselves in that
(06:40):
other person, but they don'tactually see it, if you know
what I mean.
So if they don't actually ownit, so giving an example, you
might see a, uh, a rock starplaying amazingly on stage and
you are there like, he's soelectric.
It's then being able to own thatelectric part of ourselves, like
(07:02):
that part of ourselves, likethat, that's kind of thing.
And I think that's, that's thekey.
It's not us owning our shadows,it's owning our light.
And when we own our light, it'slike, you see, you might see a
actress who's really confident.
We said, I'm, I can never bethat confident, but you can.
And it's pulling that back,bringing it back to ourselves
(07:24):
and owning that confidencewithin ourself.
Ori (07:28):
I love that.
I love the way, I love the wayyou described that.
Yeah.
Owning the gold.
Absolutely.
James (07:35):
So let's start off, can you tell us about yourself?
Ori (07:41):
So, I'm originally from Israel.
I.
Uh, lived in many places aroundthe world.
Spent, uh, spent quite a fewyears in, uh, in Bali, in
Australia, in Thailand, uh,before coming back to the uk I
moved to the UK historically in,uh, in 2003 and, and got into
(08:04):
the world of men's work in 2012through the Amazing Mankind
Project.
And that initiation kind of ledme into much deeper work of, uh,
just exploring, exploring who Iam as a man, starting to, uh,
look at the shadow within me andquestioning what kind of man do
(08:27):
I wanna be in this world.
In 2014, I was blessed to becomea dad, and that was a game
changer for me.
Nothing.
Nothing prepared me for that.
And that's been an amazingjourney that I've been on, uh,
recently, well, not so recentlyanymore, but I've been, uh, I've
been, uh, a therapist and acoach for men, um, men who are
(08:53):
often very successful and strongon the outside, but feel a sense
of emptiness and feel likesomething's missing on the
inside.
Men who might be in, uh, goodrelationships, good marriages, I
should say, and they're workingtheir asses off and still a, a
feeling of like, there'ssomething missing.
(09:13):
This is not this.
I'm not who I'm meant to be in asense.
So helping men come back home,helping men reconnect with that
light, helping, uh, men healthemselves, if you will.
James (09:29):
So we did chat before we came on live, and you wanted to
talk about.
Being a father, being a singlefather, and how that has shaped
you to become the parent youare.
So tell me, tell me more aboutthat.
Ori (09:51):
Yeah, so relationships don't always work out the way
we'd like them to, or weenvision in the beginning, and
when I started this journey ofbecoming a dad and becoming as
the, as the operating word here,because we don't become mothers,
we don't become dads.
The day that, you know, kids gethanded to us, we become one.
(10:14):
It's something that we, thatgrows, that we grow into.
And as I said, you know, therelationship never really lived
up to the potential that it had.
And when my daughter was aboutfive, we came back to the uk.
We were living in Australiabefore then.
(10:36):
And I realized that, uh, I, inthe relationship, in the dynamic
between us, I'm the one whoactually brings in the sense of
security, the sense ofstability, the sense of, uh,
consistency in, um, in, in theparenting.
So I took on the role of takingmy daughter full-time.
(10:58):
This was a role that, this wassomething I didn't quite know
what I was going into.
I said, yes, I can do this.
I just wanted to be able,because we were traveling a lot,
we're moving around a lot,living this kind of very
Instagrammable life before.
But I really wanted to give my,my daughter, uh, just plant some
roots and stay, stay in oneplace.
I had this very strong feelingthat she, she wants her own
(11:19):
bedroom and she wants, uh, tohave her toys long-term because
again, we were moving a lotbefore.
And, um, I stepped into thisrole not knowing what I'm going
into.
Uh, just saying, yeah, I can do,I, can I, I'll, I'll figure it
out.
And mom is in the picture, ofcourse, the whole time.
But I was the one that startedmaking all the decisions and all
(11:42):
the, uh, providing the childwith the safety and security
that, uh, that she needed at thetime and still needs to this
day.
So this role of becoming afather is, like I said, is
becoming, it's not the, the, thefather that I was five years ago
is not the father that I'm now,I see the world very
(12:02):
differently.
I see myself and my, my purposedifferently in this, on this
journey.
And it just gets, it just keepsgetting better and better
because the relationship betweenmy daughter is, uh, is one that
I could only dream of in termsof the, the synchronicity
between us.
We happen to be born on the sameday as well.
(12:23):
We share a birthday.
So there's a lot ofsynchronicity in the way that
we, um, that we act and behave.
And it's, uh.
It's become the biggest gift.
It's become a huge, it's becomea huge part of my identity, I
should say, being, uh, being adad.
James (12:42):
So it's, it's hard for me to relate because I've, I've
literally, I've got no childrenat its moment in time.
But how has becoming a fatherreally shaped you to who you've
become?
Ori (13:01):
So, being a parent, as every parent will know, is so
much more than just the mundane,everyday acts of, um, you know,
getting up in the morning,making breakfast, making sure
that all the logistics are, areworking.
That's just the, that's justthe, the very basic of just
making sure that, you know,things are prepared.
(13:21):
And the child has everythingthey need on a day-to-day basis,
to, to live life in a, in asafe, secure way, in a way that,
where they know that they don'tneed to worry about anything.
That's the, that that's a given.
And that, and, and then you fromthe start of that is something
that I, that I'm bringing withme.
But where the change, really,where the change really happens
(13:43):
is in the way that I relate toher and her stories and what
she's not sewing and what she'snot saying.
How I attune my, how I learn toattune myself to what's
happening in her world.
So to really sense, to reallyheighten my senses, which is
something I didn't have beforeto acutely understand what she's
(14:06):
experiencing.
What she needs that she's notsaying.
Kids do not say what they need.
You can ask them a hundred timesand it's, you still, you'll
never really get a clearunderstanding of how they're
feeling or what they need bypurely asking them straight,
simple questions.
So it's really understandingacute, like attuning is the, is
(14:27):
the key word here, to really seewhat's, what's under the surface
and what am I, and how am Ishowing up in the world?
How is my shit impacting her?
How is my nervous systemimpacting her, and what do I
need to do to keep that awayfrom her?
She does not need that.
(14:48):
This is my stuff.
So how can I create a spacewithin myself to hold her and
hold space for her, foreverything that comes up for her
without me being reactive,without me?
Um, just.
Going from a place of, uh,responding to her from a place
of fight or flight or not enoughcoffee.
(15:12):
So, uh, yeah, that's, that's theessence of it.
James (15:16):
Super important because, uh, last week I was having a
discussion with this lady aboutrelationships and how men holds
have to men being able to holdspace for women for them to
allow whatever needs to come upto come up.
(15:38):
So, how do you personally go,Bri, you know, how do you hold
space for your child?
Ori (15:50):
I hold space for, for her name's Mika, and I hold space
for Mika, first and foremost byholding space for myself.
So every parent will.
We'll know that if we do not putthe oxygen, oxygen mask on
ourselves first, we cannot holdspace or be there for anyone
(16:10):
else.
So, learning to look aftermyself first, and this is not
something that I knew, Idefinitely did not know this,
you know, when I, when I firstbecame a dad, and it took me
many years to realize that, uh,taking on more than I can handle
will backfire.
(16:32):
So, holding space for mydaughter is in the form of, you
know, picking her up from schoolor today she's at camp, but
picking her up, picking her up,and showing deep interest for
what's happening, what'shappening in her, what happened
in that day, not just the drylogistical questions of how was
(16:55):
your day?
What did you have for lunch?
What's underneath that?
What are the, you know, what arethe little dynamics and make
space, understand her rhythm.
And that's a big one.
Understand her rhythm of theday, when she wants to share,
when she wants to expressherself more.
And anticipating friction.
(17:15):
Anticipating where, where Imight present a boundary that
she might not, uh, that shemight not flow with.
And be okay with that.
And also question, how do I, howmuch am I attached to that, to
that boundary, to that, uh, youknow, laying down, laying down
strict rules?
Is that really serving?
(17:36):
Is that really serving my needsor her needs?
James (17:41):
Yeah.
Uh, just a couple of thingsthere.
Firstly, you had mentionedabout.
Giving yourself space first andforemost.
And that's so important.
Whether you're in a relationshipwith your child, a relationship
with your, um, partner,relationship with your parents
or other, other people.
It's us first.
(18:01):
And I think sometimes we can getinto the habit of giving our
energy away to everybody elseexcept ourselves.
And I think I can see, you cansee that so much when people get
run down and people get into,um, de depressed, stressed, and
(18:21):
it's realizing that it's, atthis moment in time we're most
important.
But then there comes ourdaughter, becomes our wife, and
once we know that we canprotect, it's about really
feeding ourselves first.
We can then give that toeverybody else because we, for.
And then they become four.
(18:43):
But then also you mentionedabout understanding your
daughter's knee, but underneathnow that becomes, that's for,
for the men out there, that'squite a complicated thing.
And I think it's, we getcommunication.
It's communication.
It's, but it's also being ableto attune to their energy and
(19:04):
our own energy.
And it's about building thistrust within ourself, first and
foremost.
And once you start to build thistrust within, within ourselves,
then we can start to sink in toother people.
So I'm, I, I, I must admit, I amvery good at sinking into people
and what they're thinking andthat kind of thing.
(19:25):
But for the everyday man, howcan they start to build these
skills?
Ori (19:33):
Great insights, James.
I like that.
You know, it really comes downto.
The, the basics or the basics ofsort of mindfulness and slowing
down and allowing ourselves tolisten and to, to listen and
feel ourself first.
So are you, do you, do you giveyourself enough time to, to
(19:55):
meditate, to you make space forthose kind of things?
It doesn't have to be, you know,proper just sitting down, you
know, closing your eyes.
It can be just a quiet walk, aquiet walk in nature.
Just listen to the trees.
Just listen to the, to your ownbreath, anything which allows
you to slow down, let things up,come up to the surface and
notice what's coming in inside.
And that is the, that these arethe fundamentals of building a,
(20:16):
building, any kind of emotionalinter intelligence where you can
then be attuned to other people.
And it's hard for the dads outthere who don't see their kids
often enough, who are separatedfrom them.
Uh, it's hard for anyone whodoes not, who is not in a space
where they.
(20:37):
Get to do the, may, may, theymight not even feel safe to do
those kind of things in, incertain relationships, but it
really comes down to allowingourself to do that.
Some people have not been ever,ever been allowed to do that.
And I mean that, I genuinelymean.
It's not, it's never, for somepeople, it's never felt safe to
slow down and listen because ofwhat might come up.
(21:01):
It's, it can be scary for a lotof people.
So in, in a, in a typicalcoercive, uh, family, family
home where the kids are beingshut down when the kids are
being constantly being givenactivities, being told, okay.
Right.
You've gotta, you've, you'vegot, you know, after school,
another, another club, anothermaths lesson, lesson, another
(21:23):
something to do.
The kids can never feelthemselves.
And that is a, that's afascinating, that's a
subconscious way of the parentsjust like preventing their kids
from ever.
Growing internally because theparents cannot, cannot bear to
feel what's happening for them.
It's too much.
So you'd rather, you know, pileon more and more activities.
(21:44):
Some of them can be evenpositive ones, you know,
constantly taking kids to, toactivities.
So they run around so they'renot fully, so they're not
internalizing what's happeningfor them.
But, uh, the fear, you know,kids have a fear of being bored
and parents have a, an evenbigger fear of the kids being
bored because, oh my God, whatmight happen if the kids are
bored?
I've got to, I will have to holdthat.
(22:06):
So bored in our societies becomea, you know, a big no-no.
James (22:13):
I can relate usually to boredom.
I, so I'm obsessed in personalspiritual development, which is
a good obsession to have.
But what I do find is sometimesI get bored doing certain things
and when I get bored doingcertain things.
I allow addictions, like socialmedia, like, um, yeah, like
(22:38):
social media to get to come intothe forefront.
So rather than being bored, I'malways like, you see yourself on
the screens or watching filmsand yeah, you're right.
Boredoms almost being seen as,as the enemy.
Don't get bored.
Don't get bored.
(22:58):
Just do, keep doing something.
Go for a walk or, you know, go,go on a screen.
Keep yourself occupied.
Ori (23:05):
My dad, James, my, my, my late dad had a, uh, wooden
plaque in his, uh, in his studyand it said, don't just sit
there, worry.
And that is the essence of, youknow, don't just sit there, do
nothing.
You've got to always keepyourself occupied.
Just don't, yeah.
We need to just, we do need tolearn to sit down and do nothing
again.
James (23:26):
That's it.
Um, one thing I did good at,good at doing is going
internally in my side myself andspeaking to the parts.
So I am very good at likeboredom comes up.
I'll be able to have aconversation, what does that
boredom actually want?
But then it's also actuallybreathing through that
(23:47):
discomfort.
So when you breathe, I find whenI breathe through the
discomfort, you always findsomething good at the other
side.
Ori (23:56):
Absolutely a hundred percent.
'cause you're, you, you, you'remaking space.
And that's the, that's the onething we all crave for is more,
you know, more expansion, morespace, more space.
You know, in other word for itis abundance to just like,
having, believing that there ismore.
'cause we're so many of us areconditioned to, you know,
there's not enough, we are notenough, there is not enough
time.
We're waking up and there'slike, everything is not enough.
(24:19):
So when we breathe into thatspace, we're reminded that there
is more.
And the feeling that there ismore where, you know, this is
like the universe is expandingwhere humans are, you know,
contracting.
So, yeah, big one.
James (24:32):
Well, this idea that we, we want to, sometimes people
have big, big dreams.
They wanna go out into theworld, they want to achieve
this, they wanna achieve that,but they don't allow the space
for their ideas or for theinspiration to come in.
And this is, this is what kindof space does for us.
(24:54):
It gives us the inspiration,gives us ideas.
It allows us to just breatheinto the parts ourselves, which
have been neglected, which theycan be our diamonds, they can be
our gold.
And it's within these parts thatwe can quite often find our
purpose.
Ori (25:16):
Well done.
James (25:18):
And just so we're clear, this as well, I wanted to
mention, I wanted to talk aboutsafety.
So you mentioned that somepeople don't feel safe enough
who have the space to becomemindful to meditate.
(25:38):
So how can people start tocreate that safety in
themselves?
So obviously, I'll give you anexample.
So, um, um.
To explicit is a podcast aboutmen or talk about men.
There might be this man, this aperson who, um, struggle is
always keeping himself occupiedby different things.
He doesn't feel safe beingbored.
(25:59):
He doesn't feel safe, basicallydoing nothing.
How can he start to makehimself?
How can he start to feel alittle bit more safer so that he
can perhaps spend one or twominutes in silence or doing more
mindful techniques?
Ori (26:20):
First of all, let's address the word safety for a second.
Most people don't use that word.
It's, that's a, that's more of atherapeutic word.
What people will actually say isthat, oh no, I'm too busy.
I've, I've got, I've got stuffto do.
You know, there, there's alwayssomething on the to-do list, and
if you look underneath that,you'll, you'll realize that, you
know, I need to, I need to feelsafe enough to know that there
(26:41):
will be more time, or that therewill be more.
Um, opportunities will come, youknow, I don't wanna miss that
opportunity.
So the, when we, what mostpeople are addressing is the
scarcity rather than theabundance of actually allowing
yourself to just allowingyourself to chill.
Allowing yourself to go for awalk in nature.
Allowing yourself to close youreyes when you need to.
(27:04):
You don't need another coffee.
You don't need the morestimulants, you don't need to
distract yourself with, uh,social media, shopping, porn
work, anything.
Just what if you just sat thereand allowed yourself to do
something that, you know, even agood old hobby, in the sense, a
hobby that does not require any,any kind of, uh, dopamine or ex
(27:28):
excitement, you know, good oldcarpentry or so gardening.
Gardening is, gardening ismeditative.
You know, go fishing, that'smeditative.
Go paint something that'smeditative.
That's a, any space that kind ofallows you to just slow down and
go into some gentle, uh, flowstate.
Great.
Find what's, find what's rightfor you.
(27:49):
I think this, you know, maybesafety is not the right w word
to think of.
It is like, just allow yourselfto be you.
Come back, come back to self andthis is the best you want to,
you want to do something goodfor your, for your kids.
Do something good for yourself,and that's the, you know, that,
that should be the biggest thingever.
Allow yourself to go away.
(28:10):
You know, so often I'll reachout to friends and I say friends
who are dads, and I would say,Hey, let's go for a hike on the
weekend.
Oh, no, we've got, we've gotta,we've gotta do something with
the kids.
We know we're taking them tosome something and another
trampoline park.
And you're thinking, for fuck'ssake, man, do something for
yourself.
Let yourself unwind.
Let yourself recharge.
(28:31):
Find some kind of like miniretreat or something for a few
hours.
Spend time with your, with yourmates not drinking, just.
Chilling.
Just being, being among peoplewho, who don't need anything
from you.
James (28:46):
How has fatherhood really evolved in your life and how,
and, and I'm interested as well,'cause with the men that you
coach, have you seen thefatherhood evolve inside
themselves?
Ori (29:02):
Oh, massively.
Massively.
Because when men, let's justtalk for about the clients for a
second, because the men whoallow themselves to process the,
uh, process, their wounds, theirtraumas, will allow themselves
to, uh, move, shift some energywithin.
(29:25):
They show up as better, asbetter parents.
There's so much lightness there.
That doesn't mean, you know, menare so often being seen as rigid
or tough among kids.
Mostly because they're carrying,they're carrying, you know,
wounds of being told off andbeing maybe beaten up as kids.
(29:45):
So, and the fear of, you know,so many men carry new, new dads,
carry the fear of doingsomething wrong.
You know, oh, be careful.
Don't do that.
You know, that's, you know,being constantly being told off
that something might happen.
So many to first and foremostneed to be give, given the space
to grow internally and justlearn things their way.
(30:07):
They do things differently fromthe moms, and that's fine.
There's no, um, you can, you, wecan, we can, you know, talk
about forever, about the rightway to do something, the wrong
way to do something.
But ultimately, men, the menI've worked with who were given
a chance to process stuffinternally to talk about their
(30:28):
very challenging childhoodexperiences or, or burdens in
the inner, the relationship.
We're able to show up better totheir, uh, to their kids.
But first and foremostthemselves, you know, this is a
very selfish, you know, we cantalk about, you know, parenting
has the, has the, obviously hasthe biggest sort of side, which
(30:49):
is of being in service.
But it has to first and foremostcome from a selfish place where
I am the good selfish, where I'mreally, first of all nurturing
myself so I can nurture my kidsand my, and my wife, my family.
As for me, like I said, it's anongoing, it's an ongoing
journey.
(31:10):
And I see I'm able to have,she's 10, my daughter is 10, and
I'm, I'm able to share certainthings about my life and I'll be
a, I'll give you a great examplefor something that, uh, evolved
during probably the hardestphase for me as a dad.
(31:30):
And it's a bit of a cliche.
Because it's Covid.
And Covid started off okay.
I was like, great.
More time at home with mydaughter.
You know, we can go on walks, wecan just, uh, spend more time
playing and doing the things we,we enjoy.
But as time went on and on andon this accumulated, I realized
I'm not looking after myself.
(31:51):
I don't have time to, because Ihad to be with her.
I could not leave her.
She was too young to be left athome.
So I did not get a moment to,uh, meditate or get a moment to
just listen, to put the, even,you know, something simple as
just putting on my music at homebecause she would want to listen
(32:12):
to her, you know, an audiobookor something.
That's, uh, back then there was,there were kids were watching
also of YouTube stuff onYouTube.
Uh, so basically not being ableto look after myself back then.
And I remember she was quiteyoung and I was, I remember
snapping at her and.
She noticed because she wasspending more and more time with
(32:33):
me, she could see how importantthis, this idea of meditating
is.
Meditating is simple as I don'twant to, you know, dramatize it
too much, but really the senseof just closing your eyes,
connecting with your breath, andjust giving herself a few
minutes on your own simplestuff.
And I remember her saying, ifafter I snapped at her, she
(32:53):
said, dad, you, you didn'tmeditate today, did you?
No, I didn't.
I didn't, didn't get a chance.
And without passing, with,without passing the, uh, the
blame onto her and without, uh,without her feeling like it's
her that was preventing me fromlooking after myself, it was a
(33:16):
good reminder.
And she could see that I need tolook after myself.
And kids need to see that.
Kids need to know that parentsdo need to look after
themselves.
It's essential because so oftenparents, I.
Uh, both moms and dads do stufffor themselves away from their
kids, and the kids don't knowthat mom and dad need to
recharge.
They're not seen as, you know,as, uh, they're seen as, you
(33:39):
know, superheroes.
They don't need to recharge.
They can.
They're always, they're alwayson.
Yeah.
So, uh, she saw that.
And the biggest one, James, youknow, being able to apologize to
my daughter and saying to herafter snapping at her, I'm deep.
(34:00):
I'm, I'm genuinely sorry forthat.
That's not yours.
That's mine.
Obviously, in, in, in language,inappropriate language.
What you did may have not beenthe best.
You know, you shouldn't havedone that thing you did.
But the way I reacted, the way Iresponded is me, is my shit.
(34:21):
I should not have done that.
And this comes back to thefundamentals of all
relationships, especially, youknow, among couples and
friendships.
Even, you know, the notion oftear and repair.
So a fracture happened.
The sooner we heal it, thequicker it will heal.
(34:44):
So this notion of this ideathat, you know, me as a dad and
all parents should do this, islearn to apologize quickly to
your kids.
They may have done somethingwrong, but it's you who chose to
snap.
It's you who chose to go into,you know, some, uh, to
(35:05):
catastrophizing space of like,you know, fight or flight.
How you respond to the kids isthe absolute fundamentals of
creating a space environment foryour kid to be themselves.
I can still be, I can still, Ican still have a very harsh, uh,
you know, boundary and say, whatyou're doing is unacceptable,
(35:26):
but I did not need to lose myshit.
And if I do, I've gottaapologize for it.
James (35:33):
Mm-hmm.
I love the way your daughteractually realized what you
needed in that moment.
It's almost like she, and Ithink what you are saying with
regards to they need to see yourecharging yourself, they almost
(35:53):
see it.
That's a boundary.
They see you rechargingyourself.
So they know that basically ifdaddy is recharged and
meditative, then he's, he'sgonna be good.
But at the same time, youputting that down yourself and
saying, I just need five minutesor three minutes to sit down and
(36:15):
to breathe.
Can I have that time?
It's almost showing them how tocreate boundaries.
Ori (36:22):
It's also showing them how to look after themselves.
Yeah.
It's also showing them that, youknow, when they're, wherever
they are, you know, at school,uh, anywhere they go, if things
are not working the way theyneed them to work, just go away.
Just get some space.
You don't need to stay in the,you don't need to stay in that
friction in that fight.
(36:42):
Just walk away, look afteryourself, breathe and come back.
So back in those, you know,lockdown days, the need to go
out for a walk in nature wasfundamental, was the, uh, was,
you know, it was non-negotiablein a way, and it stuck with
that.
Well, my daughter still knows tothis day that you know me.
(37:03):
We have some of our best bondingand our best connection on
walks, and she sees that.
She sees the state that I'm, I.
I'm in, I'll, I'm not on myphone, I'm just with her in
nature.
I'm present.
And that's all kids want, wantparents to be.
That's their, if there's onething, one word that the kids
(37:23):
want is their parents to bepresent because kids are, kids
are present, they're reacting.
Young kids especially, uh,they're very, very present.
Everything that's happening islike in the, in the moment.
If something goes wrong, theyreact, they respond, you know,
immediately.
So one of the things, you know,again, back to what I realized
back in the, uh, in those earlydays of, uh, single parenting,
(37:47):
is how challenging I found it toget to her, to, uh, to the highs
that she had.
She's very, she's a very joyful,exuberant little person.
And sitting with my, the, thepains, the challenges, the, the
(38:08):
madness of, you know, back inlockdown days, for example, and
the, and the weight that it hadon me, it was quite depressive.
There's no other word, you know,way to describe it.
And Covid was not the only timethat I felt, you know, you know,
some, some kind of sense of, uh,of heaviness of, you know,
depression and to be there, tobe present and to be there for
(38:29):
my child when her energy, Evaabrasions are so high and, you
know, pure god-like, and I'mbringing this weight, this
heavy, heavy weight with me.
That's been, that's beendefinitely been the hardest.
That's been the challenge.
Biggest I.
Sort of challenge for me as, um,in my parenting and the way that
(38:50):
I've learned to handle it is by,again, going back to coming back
to myself, to finding some kindof, uh, compassion and love for
myself, and accepting where I'mat.
I cannot be where she is and Idon't need to feel bad because
she's so, because her energy'sso high and my energy's so low,
(39:13):
and another coffee will not, youknow, will not resolve.
That really is, it's within me.
I'm sitting with something andI've got to resolve that.
But finding, finding some, somekind of love and compassion for
myself and the state that I'm inwould ultimately shine back on
her.
James (39:35):
So for those men out there who perhaps struggle with
love and compassion forthemselves.
How can they really, what,what's the first or couple of
first step they can start totake to'cause you, you are me.
You are mentioning about howduring lockdown, there's times
(39:57):
when you got frustrated anddepressed or stressed, shall I
say?
And this is probably quite acommon thing, especially when
you are in a space and there'sno escape.
So for the men, all, all womenout there who might struggle,
(40:18):
when it comes to really lovingthese parts of themselves, how
can they start to navigate that?
Ori (40:29):
It's a journey.
It really is a journey.
And it starts with, with thesmallest things, find, find
small things about yourself thatyou do appreciate, that you do.
Like write them down.
No.
It really, it's, it's simple asthat.
I mean, I say simple.
It really, it requires some kindof, it requires some kind of
work.
As you know, this, this whole,this whole journey is work.
(40:52):
So sit down, write it yourself.
If you feel comfortable enoughto even put it on a post-it note
in a place where you can see andremind yourself some beautiful
attribute about yourself thatyou do like, that you do
appreciate, that you aresomething that you can connect,
you can connect with.
For one person, it'll be thefact that they've got a, maybe a
(41:13):
big loving heart for anotherperson.
It might be that they'regenerous, another person.
It might be that they're,anything that's, that they feel
good about.
Start small and, and, and buildit up.
I mean, I'm feeling, I'm, andknowing what's been very helpful
for me, James, is going back, isremembering I.
(41:36):
Where did things start?
Go pear shaped for me.
You know, like, like weestablished earlier, I was not
born, uh, I was not born like Iam now.
So at some state in my life Iwas, you know, much more.
I carried a much bigger light, Icarried much more, had my
daughter's kind of exuberanceand excitement.
And then somebody poured lots ofpeople and, you know, society
(41:59):
poured, um, poured water overthat and diminished, and that
light started to diminish.
So I started as I learned, well,I cannot be this and I cannot be
that, and I'm not allowed to saycertain things and I've got to,
I've gotta please and peoplewill like me if I show up one
way and not another way.
(42:21):
So I could not be my full self.
So if you wanna start, learn howto show some compassion to
yourself, maybe go back to thatlittle boy, that little girl who
actually did have a much biggerlight and connect with that.
That's been, that's been, I knowthat it's been very, very
helpful for me because, becauseit's a lot easier having empathy
(42:43):
and compassion for a youngbeing.
You know, you see a puppy, yousee a baby, you see something,
something vulnerable, small andvulnerable.
It's a lot easier to connectwith that.
And that being is in us.
He, she, you know, that youngerpart in ourselves is still
(43:03):
there.
Go back to it anytime you wantto.
That little boy did not mean todo something wrong.
He was told that he didsomething wrong and he was told
off and he was shamed and he wasmade to feel like, you know,
that version of him isunacceptable.
And if you carry on the way thatyou do, you'll never get to
(43:24):
anywhere in life.
So maybe that, maybe that littleboy didn't, never, never had to
hear those words and.
He needs healing.
James (43:36):
Yeah, that brings in quite nicely.
I've mentioned it a few times ina child healing on this podcast,
and I think it's, it's soimportant because quite often
our actual traumas start whenwe're very young, and it's being
(43:57):
able to allow ourselves to starton the journey of healing that
inner child.
But also what I ripped down hereis playfulness.
You know, I, I, I, playfulnessis one of my biggest values, the
third biggest, yet I feel I'vebeen feeling seriously blocked
(44:17):
around it.
What I've come to realize isit's just doing something silly,
like, go back here on thispodcast.
Now, in this moment, that issilly, but it's playful and
that's the kind of stuff thatthe inner child loves to do.
(44:38):
Inner moment, silly, um, justcrazy stuff.
And, and I don't mean jumping upa plane and things like that,
but it's more running aroundjust doing what makes you feel
good, going into nature, doingsome artwork.
It could be, um, climbing trees,building dens.
(45:00):
I remember as a child, love todo that.
Just by going into this innerchild and this playfulness, we
start to bring ourselves backinto, I feel back into your
childhood, which then brings us,which then I think, and
obviously I've got no child torelate this to by saying, I've
got a nephew, you can thenrelate to the child more easier.
Ori (45:23):
I love that.
I love that so much.
You know, we'll learn so muchthrough play.
Kids especially, you know, asparents so often say, stop
playing, stop messing around,stop playing.
What the fuck are you doing?
I mean, that is there.
The, in these moments, kidslearn more than any, more than
(45:43):
any other time.
I mean, these are the momentsthat kids do not need to
activate.
They need to memorize things asthey sit and do in school, sit
and remember things.
This, these are the momentswhere they actually embody
their, their whole bodies learn,experiencing something.
And joy, which is a byproduct ofplayfulness, is, is a gateway
(46:08):
motion to our sovereign.
So for us to stand up and be inour healthy, in our healthy
kings and our healthy queens, weneed to connect with joy.
And you can, you can onlyimagine, you can only sort of
visualize older, sort of olderpeople who are being silly and
they, they, they've got nothingto prove.
(46:29):
And, and it's funny because theydon't need to, they no longer
need to be in the roles theycarry their whole lives, and
they can just be, you know, oldand mumbling and silly.
And it's funny and it'sbeautiful.
And that is, you know, like Isaid, a gateway emotion to that,
to that space of, um, how shouldI call this?
A space of clarity andsovereignty.
(46:54):
But yes, place, and it's a, wedo, we, I spend, I.
One of the things that, youknow, it's, it is not always
easy'cause I'm not al not alwaysin the mood.
And my daughter will say, Hey,come and come and play with me.
And we'll start with somethingthat's just very banal.
Maybe play Uno or something thatdoes not require too much
(47:15):
playfulness, but that often getscarried into something much.
We start, you know, teasing eachother and that leads to
something else and it starts,the playfulness grows.
But absolutely, I'm with you,with you on that.
James (47:27):
Mm-hmm.
And so it's, it's exploring itourselves, isn't it, first and
foremost.
And then we can instigate itinto the world.
Definitely.
We, we discussion beforehand howwhen you've got two parents who
are separated, it's more thanlikely it's gonna be the mother
who takes the child.
(47:49):
So what do you feel is missingin how men are seen or
supported?
Ori (47:58):
It's a painful one, James.
It's a very, very painful onebecause the way that our system
is set up is one that in mostcases, in a very arbitrary way,
uh, courts will give the momfull custody and the dads will
get to see their kids once aweek, every other week.
And it's criminal.
It's absolutely criminal.
You are, you are turning thedads into some pariah that is,
(48:21):
uh, relegated and demoted to afigure, some distant figure in
their lives.
He's no longer, he's no longerable to embody being a father.
He becomes some kind of, youknow, some guardian, some
someone who comes and sees themon the weekend.
And it's tragic.
There's, um, I would say inthese cases, do whatever you can
(48:45):
to find some kind of mediation,some kind of sensemaking where
kids, where the parents are notfighting over who gets to have
the kid.
It's not important.
Really what The only thingthat's important, the only thing
that's important is that thechildren experiencing having as
much of dad and as much of momas possible, and both parents
(49:07):
need to remember that commitmentthey made when they decided to
have the kids.
And you say that a, you know, apuppy is not for Christmas and
nor are kids.
It's, uh, kids are for life.
This is a journey that you'vegot to be there.
I mean, it sounds so dumb sayingit, but it is.
(49:27):
You really, you, you, you'vecommitted to something.
You've brought life into thisworld and you are given an
opportunity here.
This is, this is the biggestgift life gives us to pass
something on to the nextgeneration and to shape and to
help shape the next, nextgeneration.
I'm not fond of the word raisingchildren.
(49:49):
I'm, I prefer, you know, holdingspace for them.
So you've given this opportunityto hold space and care and watch
someone grow and give them the,you know, the nourishment and
the, uh, nutrition they need tobecome their full selves.
There's nothing more for me, atleast, there's nothing more
gratifying.
(50:10):
And I would just say, yeah, justdo what you need to do.
So both mom and dad can be inthe picture and each one can
share their, their good, theirgold with the, with the kids.
Dads are needed.
James.
It's not, it's not even a, it'snot even a question.
I mean, we know this and we seethis, uh, in statistics in the,
(50:33):
we see how absent in homes wherethere's an absent dad, we see.
Higher.
We see kids, uh, falling ineducation.
We see kids falling into a lotmore into crime, and yeah, dad's
are needed.
It's a given.
James (50:52):
So, uh, so regards to your clients or people you know,
who perhaps are single parents,how, how has that impacted the
child?
Ori (51:05):
Not having a dad, you mean?
James (51:07):
Yeah, I mean a dad, and I suppose in your case it's the,
it is the other way around,isn't it?
You might, you might notice how,how has it impacted the child as
a whole?
Ori (51:21):
We know that a child needs a, at least one parent to be
there for them andwholeheartedly hold space for
them.
We need at least kids need atleast one parent to really be
there to create some, a safe,uh, some kind of safe attachment
where the child knows that theycan be their full selves and
(51:41):
they can develop and expresstheir full selves and be be
loved no matter what.
In homes where I'll, I'll, I'lljust talk about my, talk about
sort of my, uh, my clientswhere, where client, where I
need to be careful here.
I need to be careful with thelanguage, uh, that I'm using
(52:03):
here.
Just don't want to, I justdon't, don't wanna give away
any, any identities, but kidssuffer.
Let's, let's just put it, put itplainly.
Kids suffer.
Kids need, deeply need both momand dad's presence and.
When the, when they're not thereor when the kids feel like mom
(52:25):
and dad are fighting over themor being are belittling each
other, the kids feel it and thekids start to have the kids
start leaning in one in one way.
And it's sad.
It's not, it's not healthy foranyone.
James (52:40):
That brings in quite nicely to the, the balance of
masculine and feminine.
If you have just your mother,then the child's gonna, i i is
this, is this right?
In thinking the child's gonna bemore swayed towards the feminine
energy, depending on thatperson.
And then obviously for most men.
(53:02):
So if you think about it withthe, with the child, if, if
she's being brought up in a veryfeminine environment, they might
be more as they call it in men,the nice guys, is this right?
Yeah.
And I.
And then on the opposite end,they can probably, they've been
up in a, in a very masculine,masculine environment, it can
(53:25):
have the impact of, um, maybethe alpha male.
Is that right?
Ori (53:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Ultimately, when a child isbeing, when a child is being
exposed, uh, to very much too,too much or too little of either
of either one, they willnaturally lean to lean, to take
on those, take on those traits.
And we see, see this in homes,you know, when there's, where
(53:51):
fathers are, where fathers areabsent, and there's a, there's
some, there's some kind ofbelittling towards, uh, mothers
talking down, talking badly, Ishould say, uh, towards, uh,
towards their ex-husbands.
The, the kids take, the kidstake on, take that, take that
on.
And they, you know, they carrythat on throughout lives.
(54:12):
And you and I have seen this inthe Mankind Project with, uh,
men who.
Men who carry this wound ofgrowing up, of growing up
without, without a dad.
I'll, I'll tell you, I'll talkabout myself for a, for a
moment.
So I grew up, my dad passed awaywhen I was 12 and before, before
then, he was sick for manyyears.
(54:34):
So I grew up in a, in ahousehold.
There was very, there wasextremely, um, feminine, I
should say, and not, not in the,not necessarily in the
healthiest possible way.
Dad was, dad was unwell and wasunable to show up as a healthy,
in his healthy masculine.
So I didn't particularly, Ididn't absorb, I didn't absorb
(54:56):
strong, I didn't have thestronger boundaries and
discipline and the things thatyou'd want a dad therefore, to
balance, I should say, tobalance, uh, the mother.
And what I saw is a very.
What we call a crumbling king, aking who felt he's not enough, a
(55:18):
king.
He who felt he's, he's, he'sunable to provide and carrying a
lot of shame around that.
And that's the kind of, that'sthe kind of father I grew up
with.
That was, and you know, lookingback it was very hard, but
looking back, it's be, it's mademe the man, it's made me the man
I am today because I've learnedto, I've, I've learned to
(55:40):
integrate that and make sense ofthat, of that experience.
He passed away when I was 12 andI continued to integrate through
the grief of not having him, Icontinued to integrate the
absence of the masculine.
It definitely affected andimpacted the way that I showed
up in, uh, in my, in my malegroups.
And I never needed to be.
(56:03):
And, you know, I never need,felt like I needed to be some
kind of alpha male, but I didneed to prove myself.
So to make a long, to make along story short, it's, uh, if
we, if ultimately we canintegrate whatever wounds,
whatever, whatever life givesus, if we do the healing, if we,
(56:24):
if we process it at some pointin life and make the most of it,
there's a gift in all of it.
James (56:34):
Mm.
Yeah.
Nicely, nicely put.
Um, so with regards to you andyour daughter, how, how did you
start to start to integrate morefeminine traits or so in more
feminine energy with regards toyour daughter?
(56:54):
Because obviously you weresaying earlier that you've
taken, you are there majority ofthe time, but it's kind of the
idea that with being a man.
How can you personally start tohelp her to embrace her feminine
side a bit more so it becomes abit more balanced
Ori (57:17):
just by being there?
So the feminine energy is afeminine, is an energy of just
holding space.
Is an energy of, is an energy offlow, is an energy of
acceptance, is an energy ofnurturing.
All those things are happeningall the time.
It's not for me.
I've had to, you know, I'mfinding a healthy balance
between the two, between thesetting, between the masculine
(57:38):
side, which is the we settingboundaries and the providing,
protecting and providingsecurity and the nurturing side
of just holding whatever'sthere.
You know, the masculine side isthe side of doing, the masculine
side is the side of lookingafter the logistics and making
breakfast and dinner and make,doing the shopping and paying
bills and cleaning here.
That's the masculine, thefeminine side is the side is the
(58:02):
side that sits with her thatjust listens.
It's the side that just, uh.
It is the side that is a partthat's in, in me as well.
You know, I wanna sit and cuddleher.
I wanna sit and read books withher.
I wanna sit and spend time withher.
It's for me.
I mean, this is somethingthat's, uh, and to some degree,
that's the joy.
(58:22):
That's the fun.
These are the fun moments of,of, of parenting.
You know, leaning into that.
Leaning into the, into thatside.
Yes.
There's a lot of doing, and we,we tick a lot of boxes of going
places and traveling and doingthings.
That's fun.
But within those moments, it'sactually, they're just the
wondering in nature, or justplaying a game of just getting
(58:44):
lost.
Mm.
Which are, which are the momentsI remember.
And they'll re
James (58:48):
Yeah.
Ori (58:49):
That, that she takes in.
That's the, that's the feminineside.
James (58:55):
I, I can feel that.
I love that.
I love the.
The, the exploring, the, thesurrendering and the, the sense
of allowing, it's, I've justdone, I'm doing this money
membership thing, and they talkabout masculine and feminine.
And the masculine side is the,the action doing it is the doing
(59:16):
to create the money.
It's the planning, it's the,it's the, the action, bang,
bang, bang, bang.
But in order to have all thisaction and bringing in money,
people forget about thereceiving, the surrendering, the
ability to, uh, to relax.
So you, you, you action whateveryou need to action.
(59:38):
Then you relax and you do theaction.
You relax and we forget we're,we're in this society of doing,
doing, doing.
And so there's this idea that.
Just surrendering is so, such anice thing to do.
And it's, it's hard.
It's, it is hard because I'vebeen brought up this mentality
I've got to do, do, do to make,um, to create a business, to, to
(01:00:01):
achieve stuff.
But that surrendering andlearning to surrender is a whole
new level of acceptance.
Ori (01:00:12):
I'll give you an example.
I love that.
And I'll give you an example youreminded me of.
So she's very creative, sits anddraws a lot, and in that
surrendering is making themistakes, is learning to accept
the mistakes that she makes whenshe's, when she'll work on a
piece for a very, very longtime.
Something that she might wannasubmit to school and accept and
(01:00:32):
love herself when she makes amistake.
So when she was younger, shewould make a little mistake and
then rip the whole thing up andjust, and hate the piece and,
you know, and, and cry and makeit, there'll be a big, big drama
around it, but.
The older she's, the older shegot, she's been able to sort of
accept that space.
And that's because she seesI'll, I'll be with her and I'll,
(01:00:55):
and I will show her, I will giveher, I will show her how to love
herself and the mistakes thatshe's made, and be okay with
that.
Then move on.
Mm.
Not, don't be too, don't be tooharsh.
Don't be too critical onyourself.
You've done your best.
As long as you're okay withthat, as long as you're okay
with this, with, you know,you've sat with this piece and
you've given it your best.
Or she'll, she's a, she's aswimmer as well.
(01:01:16):
So you've given your best in thecompetition.
You've, if you know, and that's,again, that's the, that's a very
strong masculine side of hers.
If you know that you've doneyour best, you come out of the
water at that point.
Relax, surrender.
Embrace yourself.
Yeah.
We see that we're, you know, inthis, this kind of dance between
the masculine and the feminine.
We do that.
(01:01:36):
We do that all the time.
Uh, and yeah, they're both,they're both, I.
We, we can never banish, we cannever sort of push, push one
side and say one is better, oneis better than the other, or
it's just with her as well.
And in my, in my own parenting,you know, embrace, bring them
all, bring them all in, make anice bread salad from them.
James (01:01:58):
Yeah.
Nice.
Can you finish off by telling uswhat is it that you do and how
can people get in contact?
Ori (01:02:06):
So I work, I work one-on-ones.
I work in groups, I runretreats.
And I work predominantly withmen who, who are successful on
the outside.
Strong men who feel some kindof, some sense of emptiness and
wanna connect to themselves,want to heal parts of
themselves.
(01:02:26):
And this is all with theintention of being in service,
creating some kind of legacy,being, uh, being their full,
connecting to the, to that lightthat we spoke of and being
their, their full version ofthemselves.
Mm.
So connecting to first andforemost, connecting to what is
that?
What is that treadmill thatwe're on that we feel like we
(01:02:49):
need to, who are we trying to,who are we trying to please?
Who, which, what are we tryingto prove in the world?
And come back home to this senseof self love, compassion.
So I can be there for myself soI can be there for my family, so
I can ultimately buildsomething, you know, the, the
dream, uh, where can I be found?
My website is ori lat.co uk andthe handle on all social medias
(01:03:14):
at Orla, O-R-I-L-A-T-T-E-R.
Simple.
And if anybody wants to justjump on a call, have a free
possibility call, just hit meup.
We'll start, start with a littleconversation.
James (01:03:28):
Thank you very much, aria.
Ori (01:03:30):
Thank you, James.
I really enjoyed this.
I.
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