January 30, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode of Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, host James Ainsworth speaks with Matthew Liam Gardner, founder of the School of Living Myth. Matthew is preparing for a transformative journey—walking the length of the UK along the Spine of Albion. This epic endeavor is more than a physical challenge; it’s a powerful metaphor for personal growth, integrity, and living with purpose.
🔥 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
✔️ How walking into the unknown can unlock your purpose and potential.
✔️ The role of myth and storytelling in modern masculinity.
✔️ Why discipline, courage, and taking action lead to real transformation.
✔️ How to navigate fear, uncertainty, and self-doubt on your path.
✔️ The power of mentorship and community in building resilience.
✔️ Why reconnecting with nature and movement can heal and inspire.
💡 Who This Episode Is For:
→ Men feeling stuck, searching for purpose, or craving clarity.
→ Those struggling with fear, overthinking, or a lack of direction.
→ Leaders who want to guide others with authenticity and wisdom.
→ Anyone drawn to self-discovery, growth, and redefining what success means.
🎧 Subscribe & Listen Now to Man: A Quest to Find Meaning for honest, actionable conversations about modern masculinity, overcoming fear, and creating a life aligned with your values.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In this episode, we take a deepdive into sacred leadership.
We talk about what sacredleadership is.
How it differs from modernunconventional leadership.
And how you can start to embracesacred leadership.
in your life right now.
Welcome to Man (00:19):
A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:40):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (00:57):
We each have a role within the ecosystem of life on
Earth.
One of the great missions of ourlives is attuning to that role
and living it.
Good morning, Matthew.
What do you mean by thatstatement?
Matthew (01:12):
Hello, brother.
Lovely to be here with you.
So the Earth is an ecosystem andwe are all here a part of it.
And I think one of the, one ofthe wisdoms that's been lost is
that we arrive into the worldWith, uh, like the role that we
play within the ecosystemactually seeded inside us, you
(01:34):
can say it's seeded in the DNA.
You can say it's part of thesoul of each of us individually,
but it's part of the lifejourney of each of us to find
our way to building ourrelationship with that role
within the ecosystem.
And you can think about itthrough like a ecosystem.
You know, the animal lens, like,the badger has a role within the
ecosystem of life.
The elephants have a role withinthe ecosystem of life.
(01:57):
The trout has a particular role.
They all have a player place.
They all have a place and fitinto a role within kind of the
greater story.
And we have that as humans, butwe also have that as animals.
as individuals, as individualkind of unique threads within
the greater whole.
So I love that your podcast andthe exploration here is all
about meaning because I feellike that's a real awakening on
(02:21):
earth right now is, you know,what is the meaning that already
Lives inside me.
You know, what's, what's themeaning that's already here that
I get to kind of grow to attuneto over time?
James (02:32):
Yeah.
That's, um, so I feel as thoughwe all have this, we all have
this soul inside us.
And that soul, when we attune toit with its intuition, whatever
you wanna call it, is almostour, it's our guiding compass.
And when we trust our intuition,our compass is able to direct
it.
But when we kind of get caughtup in the outside world, it
(02:55):
almost becomes hard, it almostbecomes overwhelming and hard to
actually understand and todecipher.
Our direction.
Matthew (03:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really hear that.
But the way that it sits, youknow, we all kind of find our
way to metaphors that work forus individually.
And one of the metaphors thatreally works for me is almost
it's almost like the river ofdestiny and we're always on the
river of of destiny.
All of us in every in everymoment are on the river of
destiny.
It's just the depth of the riverthat we've found our way to.
(03:29):
It's the quality of ourselvesthat we've found our way to.
And.
Over a lifetime, if we reallystay the course and, you know,
spiral deeper into ourselves andgo through these journeys of
transformation and rememberingand courageous stepping forward,
I feel like we touch deeperlayers of the river.
We kind of come into deeperexpressions of ourselves and,
(03:53):
you know, someone might be onthe surface.
There's still an expression oflike.
Kind of the core of who theyare, but there's a quality that,
that becomes more apparent whenwe go into the deeper, the
deeper meaning, the deeper self,you know, the, the expression of
ourselves at the core of it all.
James (04:12):
It just brings, it just rings a bell now, actually.
I remember when I went to SouthAmerica doing white water
rafting, and I was caught in aswirl underneath the water.
And it's almost like I almostfeel like, now you mention that,
the swirl, the deeper you go,the, you get a swirl.
And underneath that swirl, it'salmost like it shakes you up,
shakes the old version of you,to help you to unleash the new
(04:35):
version.
Matthew (04:36):
Yeah, totally.
One of the, I love that.
I love that.
I would love to hear about thatstory sometime too, by the way.
Um, for me, it's, it's almostlike the, the depths of the
river are like, we're kind ofgoing into the unconscious.
So we're going out of what wethink we are into like the
deeper truth of ourselves thatwe have to awaken to.
(04:57):
And it's quite a radical thingto really, Contact who we are at
the core of ourselves,particularly because we've been
conditioned by the world.
So so strongly and we kind ofcome with layers of trauma.
And so when we contact when wecontact those deeper parts of
ourselves, it's a real radicalthing.
And one of the ways I like totalk about it is.
(05:17):
You know, if we want to swim inthe depths, we're going to have
to learn to breathe water.
And that's a transformationalprocess.
Like we have, it's almost likegoing from the one that floats
on the surface to the one whogrows gills and becomes a whole
other being.
So there's thistransformational, almost this
mythic transformational processwhere we become Something that
(05:38):
we don't, we wouldn't originallyrecognize necessarily, but it is
so innately the truth of what weare.
And I just, I love that idea ofhaving to become something else,
but that something else isactually like the deeper truth
of us.
James (05:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I, I hear you wouldn't I?
Yeah, it was, it was quite aterrifying experience, the, uh,
whitewater rafting, but it was,it was fun overall.
Can you tell us about yourself?
Who, who are you, shall we
Matthew (06:06):
say?
Yeah, so my name, my name isMatthew Liam Gardner.
I have, um, you could call me ateacher and a mentor.
I'm something like that.
Uh, I I, I lead, I founded and Ilead a mystery school or a
wisdom school called School ofLiving Myth and this is our
second year now.
I've been mentoring and teachingfor two decades now at kind of
(06:29):
increasing levels of qualityalong the way.
It's been a really long journeyof kind of finding my way to
where I am now.
Yeah, the school has been mykind of the thing I'm dedicated
to the last couple of years.
Um, it is a space where some ofthe forgotten wisdoms come
through and some of the emergentones arise as well.
(06:49):
So, you know, we're connected tothe threads of ancestry and
ancestors.
We're connected to threads oflike the great cycles of time
and the story of humanity andthe story of us individually.
destiny and embodiment, all kindof woven in together, purpose,
you know, all of that woven intogether.
That's where I spend my days.
(07:10):
And we just, we take it from abit of a, you could say I come
in from a bit of a, it's almostpart esoteric, Len, a part
esoteric side, but it's alsopart indigenous.
Um, I think a lot of what I'mholding point for in the world
is almost like, uh, In someways, it's European people or
(07:31):
Caucasian people or white peopleremembering that they have a
seat at the fire as well and,and remembering what it takes to
like, find our way to that seat.
Um, you know, when we sayculture, often when someone says
culture, often they point awayfrom themselves, culture, it's
over there, you know, likeindigenous is over there.
And there's this reclamationprocess that is a long one, and
(07:54):
it's very nuanced, but it'sabout coming back to pointing at
ourselves and saying culture,pointing at ourselves and saying
indigenous or at least belongingand everything that comes with
that, which is a real, you know,it's a real kind of deep
humanity journey that we're onright now.
Oh, and I'm also doing thiswalk.
I'm about to go, and I'm aboutto walk.
(08:15):
Roughly 900 miles, somewherebetween 900 and a thousand miles
thereabouts we think it's goingto be from the Isle of Wight up
the up and along the spine ofAlbion which is a Like a sacred
site, ley line, energy portal,magic, all along the, like,
straight up the middle ofBritain, all the way to Durness
(08:36):
in Scotland's far north, andit's a bit of a personal
pilgrimage, a rite of passage,and a community stirring at the
same time, a bit of a culturalrenewal, a call for cultural
renewal at the same time, and Ibegin in like nine days, so I'm
right in the thick of it rightnow, brother.
James (08:53):
Nice, um.
I would love to hear, how didyou actually get onto this path?
What was it that, because Idon't know if you're like me,
but it took me probably a good20, um, 28, 30 years to really,
to get rid of, not get rid of,to kind of realize that there's
(09:14):
more to life than what I wasliving.
How did you get onto this path,this journey?
Matthew (09:19):
Yeah, I feel like I started really young in a subtle
way because I, I was the oldestbrother and I was in the
fatherless household and littleme, like really, when, when,
when dad left, I made it mean,you know, You know, it's, it's
my job to be a leader for mybrothers and it's my, and I kind
(09:40):
of had a sense of things, youknow, I could fit as a four year
old.
I used to go up to people attraffic lights and say, why are
you fat?
Or I'd go up smoking.
I'd be like, do you want to die?
Why are you smoking?
You know, I'm just like, I wasthis kind of really direct
straight shooter, four year old.
Um, and I had this sense thatthe world was something wasn't,
(10:00):
wasn't quite right.
Like right is the way I wouldmaybe describe it like there was
a there was some stuff kind ofthe world was weird And I I not
everything was as it seemed Ikind of got that one pretty
early on And so my love for mybrothers really set me on a
journey of like finding my wayto you could say truth or what
(10:22):
is real or what is actuallysustainable or what is actually
love And that just catalyzed meinto You early days, personal
development, Tony Robbin world,you know, like, um, just really
journeying through those realms.
And eventually I got to a pointwhere I was old enough and I
started doing workshops and thenI started doing my own retreats
(10:44):
and then I've kind of journeyedquite far along those, along
that road, that road.
And I've just found myself in aspace now where, cause the road
continues, you know, like thespiral continues.
There's always, you know,everything that we think we want
to be, we kind of one day getthere.
Uh, and then.
Eventually it spirals into thenext thing as well and you know
like the like that fish in thewater Like we don't know what
(11:06):
comes after we get there And soI kind of got to some places and
then have spiraled into the nextstage So i've just been
following the thread my wholelife and To be honest, I'm a
little, I love it.
There's like, it's, it's justsuch a rich and exciting
adventure.
Like if, if I'm going to be ahuman being and living on earth
right now, I'm going to be onthe quest of becoming myself and
(11:29):
I'm going to be on the adventureof like learning everything that
I can and, um, becomingeverything that I can in this
lifetime.
So it just, to me, it feels likea great adventure and like the
only game.
Like, they're only big gamereally worth playing, so I want
to play it.
James (11:46):
Yeah, nice.
It's um, it's one of them, oneof them journeys that once you
start and you realize, yes, it'shard, but you wouldn't, I, I
would never go back.
I would never go back to where Iwas 10 years ago, simply because
the changes that you kind ofincorporate into yourself are
life changing.
(12:06):
And it's this idea that when youstart to discover who you
actually are, there's asacredness to it.
And that sacredness is where wecan really discover what we're
actually meant to do here.
And as you said, you know, youhave this idea that I'm going to
(12:27):
be this new version of me, butyou get this new version.
And you've got another newversion, and another new
version, and it's always likelayering up.
You're like a computer game, youknow, you, you battle one thing,
and you level up in the game,and you're like, yes, next one.
But yeah, it's this, thisjourney that of explore,
exploring ourselves to really, Ireckon sometimes to drop the
(12:52):
outer layers.
Matthew (12:54):
Yeah, so just just hearing you share that what I
was feeling was this journey of,you know, one day you and I are
going to be in our 70s.
And I don't know about you, butfor me, I'm never going to
retire.
Like that's not my journey.
I'm like, this is, this is aboutso much more than money or, you
know, this, this is like a wayof being and a life to be lived.
(13:16):
So the 70 year old me is goingto be very different to the, to
who I am right now.
You know, there's going to be.
The Adelaide is that will peeloff and I'll probably be a lot
slower.
I'll probably be a lot, a lotmore graceful, not so fiery and,
you know, pokey all the time.
And I suppose what I'm sayingthere is, yeah, the Adelaide is
(13:37):
fall off.
And in some sense, as we comedeeper into life, like the kind
of that squidgy inner beingreveals themselves like the
grace and the innocence and theneeding help.
Sometimes, you know, it's, youknow, that the whole idea of
like, The deeper into life weget, we kind of come back to
being a child and, you know, thelike really kind of integrated
elders also deeply embody theirchild and allow themselves to
(14:01):
receive support and stillpowerfully stand in who they
are.
Um, but that's who I think isthis full circle that we go on.
Um, yeah, shedding those skinsas we do.
James (14:12):
It's, um, you tend to get told as a, as a teenager.
That, stop being a child, growup, then you get to probably
your 30s if you're lucky, 40sdefinitely, and you're told, and
you know, you learn that, do youknow something, I want to be
more like a child, so you kindof have this idea that you get
told not to be a child, and thenyou get told, and then not get
(14:35):
told, you kind of learn to be achild again, and when you start
to learn that, to be that childagain, there's that um, That
childlike playfulness and thatlightness, so almost that sense
of surrender.
You can't control what'shappening.
And so I think a lot of childrenjust kind of roll with it.
Matthew (14:55):
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's just about, youknow, finding our way to being
ourselves while also, you know,that becomes brings back that
river of destiny, you know,we're still floating on the
river, you know, and there has,there does have to be a
surrender along the way, becauselike the current's got us and we
can either fight it or like gowith it.
(15:17):
And the going with it is trust.
You know, like there are timesto forge our path, but even that
is a trusting, you know, to likethis walk, for instance, I, it
doesn't make sense, but I haveto trust and there is a forging
in it, but it's still me justkind of surrendering to the
deeper call and there is adeeper call, you know, the, I
(15:37):
said the deeper call, but it'sthe, it's almost like what
compels us.
What, what compels us, eventhough we can't necessarily make
sense of it, we don't need toreally.
It's just, if it, if it calls usso powerfully that we have to
answer it's for us, you know,there's almost no doubt around
it.
James (15:56):
Yeah, definitely.
You talk about sacredleadership.
What is sacred leadership?
Matthew (16:04):
Yeah.
So one of my mentors is a, is aman called Mack McCartney and
he's, I think he's I think hisnext birthday is 74.
I think so.
Something like that.
And I consider Mac to be one ofthe key elders here in the UK,
(16:24):
in Britain.
And one of the things he says Ireally love, it's, you know,
everyone has the pieces thatthey take with them and say it
over and over again, and this isone of his.
So I want to, I don't just wantto say it, I want to let people
know this is his.
He says.
When you know what you mostdeeply and profoundly love, you
(16:46):
have in a sense defined what issacred to you.
When you know what it is thatyou most deeply and profoundly
love, you have in a sensedefined what is sacred to you.
And so there's lots ofdirections we could go talking
about sacred leadership, but Ifeel for today that probably the
(17:07):
most important part is just toacknowledge that it is, it is.
letting ourselves be penetratedand changed and grown by what we
most deeply and profoundly loveand really trusting that what we
deeply and profoundly love isour sacred work in the world.
It is our, it is what we'recalled to and It almost shows
(17:33):
the way in some ways.
So it comes back to this reallysimple and it's and it's in its
simplest way it comes back tothis simple idea of like okay
like what do you like love somuch that it brings tears to
your eyes and what is soprofoundly real for us that it
Just it just changes us likewhat I see some of my brothers
(17:55):
when they have a child and theyhold that child in their Hands
for the first time and then itchanged like they are changed in
that moment.
Something goes Like and nowwe're in a whole other timeline,
you know They are grown by thisalmost initiatory moment and
it's the same for like what welove but I know this is part of
(18:15):
why I love what you're up tobecause Us attuning to what we
really love like and because wehave to be set where sense
making beings we have to makesense of the feelings in the
polls and I don't know if allthat many people take the time
in their lives to really spendtime resting into what is it
that I most deeply andprofoundly love and can I give
(18:39):
my life to that can I becourageous enough to give my
life to And that's thebeginnings of sacred leadership.
It's, it's that the willingnessto, to be the love that we are
in the world.
And, you know, when, when welove something so much that it
brings tears to our eyes thatactivates.
It that activates and initiatesthose deeper layers of us, you
(19:01):
know, it calls upon the strengthall of a sudden where we're
moving through the world chargedwith a love and a Courage, you
know, I don't know about you butIn some in some sense for me
going back to my brothers in thebeginning.
It was my love for my brothersThat became my life path And
then my brothers are now myhuman family And so it's that
(19:24):
same love still that compelledme to begin this journey with my
brothers that's actually got mewalking this walk.
You know, it's, it's my love forthe change.
It doesn't even make sensenecessarily, but it's my love
for the, the change and theevolution of all of us and us
coming into the next chaptertogether, beginning to do this
better together.
(19:45):
So, yeah, what, what do you mostdeeply and profoundly love?
I soaked in those words for acouple of years and I tell you
what, it changed me.
There's no other way to say it.
Just sitting with, you know, Ilike to sit with particular
things for a few seasons.
Some, some things are like forjust a moment or just a day.
(20:06):
Other things are like for acouple of years and that one for
me was for a couple of years.
And those were the years where Itransitioned into the school
transitioned into, um, what Iwould call a bit of a deeper
path.
And I began to my experiences.
I began to embody.
(20:27):
Something that I could alwaysfeel was possible in my life,
but like my poetry, forinstance, I could all read
people's poetry or their writingand I'd be like, how does that
person write so well, like, youknow, I could, I would try, but
I could never quite get my soulinto my words, you know, it was
very, it was very mindy in a lotof ways.
(20:50):
Ends.
Over those years being connectedto what I most deeply and
profoundly love, it broughtthrough my love into my words.
It brought my soul into mywords.
And so my writing matured and itgrew.
And so this is, it's part of howthat love changes us.
It literally grows us becausewe're, it's like being invested.
(21:10):
And I come from a sportsbackground.
And I have always my whole lifebeing all the way in wherever I
am.
So if I'm on the, if I'm playing40, you know, football and I'm
on the, I'm on the field, I'mgoing to bring all of myself to
that experience.
And it's just the same all theseyears later, you know, I'm going
to, I'm going to bring all ofmyself to my poetry.
(21:32):
I'm going to bring all of myselfto my writing.
If I'm going to sit in circlewith my brothers, I'm going to
bring all of myself there.
And I think.
It's that love that makes thathappen.
It's that love that pulls usinto the moment and has us fully
engaged.
I think we live in a momentwhere a lot of our, a lot of our
brothers out there are reallytentative.
(21:54):
They've kind of got one foot inlife and one foot out of life.
You know, there's a, and I mean,What was that?
James (22:04):
Is it back and forth?
Yeah, back and forth.
And there's, and I think it'sreally fair that there's a back
and forth.
I think that's really, it's,it's justified, but there is.
There is something to be saidfor truly choosing the, like,
what we deeply know to be trueinside us and trusting, trusting
(22:24):
the path is gonna take us to allthe places that we never knew we
had to go to and we just have tolean in.
So that's been my experience.
In the next stage of it all, um,through these words from Mac.
Yeah.
That, that relates, I've heardit before about, from other,
from people about your purposeis what you look doing.
(22:46):
And with the podcast, what Ifound is that this is, this will
be the 28th pod, uh, interviewthat I've done.
And so it's this idea that whenyou find something that you love
doing, it flows as well.
So literally I started in Augustand literally the podcast just
(23:08):
flowed and I've even had got toa point where I had six weeks in
New Zealand and I, what I didwas that I made sure I got
enough episodes for it to streamwhile I was away.
So, but it's just one of thosethings that just flows, people
come in, the episodes flow, theediting flows, and it's about, I
(23:32):
feel as though when it comes tothe idea of, um, doing what you
love, there's a sense that whenyou are able to literally just
drop in and let it flow, itbecomes easy, timeless.
Matthew (23:51):
Yeah,
James (23:51):
becomes timeless.
Matthew (23:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I believe that.
I really believe that.
And that's, that's my experienceas well.
It's like we, when we're doingwhat we are supposed to be
doing, it just makes sense.
We feel it.
It's not always comfortable andit's not always easy, but it
does flow.
You know, it does ask, it doesask things of us, but it does
(24:15):
absolutely feel, we just know itin our bodies, don't we?
We, Oh, this is, I'm supposed tobe doing this.
There's just.
This is it for sure.
James (24:23):
This just feels right.
How does sacred leadershipdiffer from normal leadership?
Matthew (24:31):
Yeah, so I think there's a couple of different
ways we could talk about it.
Um, but I just want to kind ofmeet the time frames that we
have here and just what this is.
You can think about it as the,the being changed by that love
over time.
So, you know, we've beenspeaking about spiraling and
(24:52):
changing as time goes on.
Sacred leadership means that weare, like we said, like that
statement you said at thebeginning, there is an ecosystem
on earth and we are taking ourrole within it.
So sacred leadership is whenwe're living that role beyond
industry.
(25:12):
Beyond modern constructs oflike, beyond like modern
constructs of society, we canstill be, you know, doing all of
that as well, but it is thepart, it's the role that we're
playing that is beyond theconditioning of our time.
And what I mean by that is, youknow, for instance, you could,
you could say that I'm a coachstill, I coach and I mentor and
(25:34):
that's, I still do one on onesessions with people.
That's a part of my life.
Um, but then if you look at thiswalk, which.
is a, is an act of communityrallying and cultural renewal.
And there's no kind of gain init for me.
Not that sacred leadershipdoesn't have an exchange.
There's a deeper it's comingfrom a deeper place than looking
(25:57):
after myself.
It's coming from a place of whoam I and what's my role on earth
in these times?
And do I have the courage andwillingness to actually play
that role?
So it's almost like the rolethat we play outside of
industry, even if it expressesitself in industry.
(26:19):
So take, take a carpenter as anexample.
Someone who builds things, theymake things, they make things
that are functional.
Some carpenters like to makethings that are beautiful and
they have their job, like theircarpentry job where they make
houses or they or cabinets orhowever it plays out.
(26:39):
That same carpenter, not justdoing their job, but actually
thinking where am I going tobring my carpentry skills, my
creation skills on earth rightnow that, that adds the most of
my abilities and craft and loveto this world.
And so they can still have thejob, but there's also this like,
(27:01):
This turning towards the, thecontribution of a greater
dreaming.
You know, we're all a part of agreater dreaming and the sacred
leadership is when we engageinto that greater dreaming.
Not just the, the surface level.
The surface level is I'm acarpenter.
I do my job.
I make things for people.
Like perhaps the deeper level isI have a craft that can
(27:23):
literally tangibly build.
The physical world that comesnext, how am I going to, how am
I going to be part of buildingthe world that comes next and
how can I use my, my skills todo that?
And some carpenters find theirways to, for instance.
Building roundhouses andcreating like spaces where some
(27:45):
of the cultural renewal andmen's circles and sweat lodges
and these like these sort ofthings where they can take
place, their carpentry begins tocreate the opportunities.
For, you know, someone like meor someone like you to come in
and hold that circle and be inthat space.
And so they're playing theirrole.
We're playing our role, howeverit looks.
(28:07):
And, but it's where it's comingfrom.
What depth of the river is itcoming from?
That is what defines the sacredleadership piece.
James (28:17):
So it's almost going from the idea that leadership that
leadership is.
about the external people.
So it's, it's about me tothinking about the bigger
picture, the more, more alongthe lines of where as a human
(28:38):
race are we heading?
Matthew (28:40):
Totally.
It's almost like if you think ofour, if we think about human
family, like humanity as ourhuman family, which we actually
are, you know, you can kind oflike trace us all back to some
big kind of shared beginnings insome, um, In some way, right?
So we are a human family in somesense, the same way that all
elephants are related.
You know, we are all connectedin that same relational way.
(29:05):
And it's relating to the humanfamily as a grown one, not a,
not a taker from the ecosystem,but a contributor to the
ecosystem.
The contributing to theecosystem is, is the leadership
part of sacred leadership.
The how we contribute, that'sthe sacred.
So it's like, okay, so we'recontributing to the ecosystem.
(29:27):
We're playing our unique role.
Yeah, the, the quality of ourunique role.
That's the sacred.
Can we contribute to theecosystem in the way that is not
just the most quantitative, butis the most qualitative as
according to the being that Iam.
Like for me, for instance, mymost quality contribution to the
(29:49):
ecosystem isn't carpentry.
That's not, that's not mine.
I'm a, I'm like a.
human relations kind of person.
I'm a bit more of a, you know,I've got to know, and that's,
that's innate to me.
That's like innate to how I've,part of how I was raised, a part
of what lives in my DNA, a partof how my dad is a cuddly being,
(30:10):
you know, it's like, it's a partof the story of me that I have
to attune to over a lifetime andthen live that in a way that
contributes to the ecosystem.
James (30:22):
So it's more how, it's more about how can we co create
for each of us have a differentpiece of the puzzle and it's
about almost bringing this pieceof the puzzle together to make
the bigger whole.
Matthew (30:42):
Yes, yeah, and in that world don't have gurus anymore,
because, whoever the teacher is,or whoever's playing the role of
teacher is equal to thecarpenter.
Because the carpenter is playingtheir highest expression of
their role, the teacher'splaying their highest expression
of their role, the cook isplaying their highest expression
(31:03):
of their role.
And because we're all playingour highest expressions of our
roles.
We're all like, that's thecircle.
That's the circle of like trueequality.
And it's, we're all grown.
We're all in grown states ofhumanity contributing to the
ecosystem.
So that's the, that's the dreamanyway.
James (31:25):
So how, how can, so if anybody listening here now, how
can people start to really movefrom leadership into sacred
leadership?
Matthew (31:37):
Yeah.
So, you know, I mean, I thinkthe first piece is to
acknowledge that they're alreadyliving their destiny.
Like, that's a bit of a humblingthing for some people,
particularly if you're, ifyou're broke, or if you're in a
relationship breakdown, or justin a moment in life where it's
just a bit, of the same thingover, you know, or, or we're
just focused on, you know, doingparticular things that excite us
(32:00):
and caught up in our own kind ofexcitement.
Um, I think the first thing toacknowledge is that we're all
living our destiny.
And just to rest into that, liketo breathe that for a moment,
this is my destiny.
Like I, like I am already anexpression of myself.
I am already Living who I amnow, my, my, my role, my task,
(32:23):
my quest is, can I spiral into adeeper quality in the seasons
and the years and the decadesahead so that the quality of me.
is even more of what I am in theworld.
So an acknowledgement of thedestiny and then a beginning to
explore and just consider likecontemplate, it's pretty simple
(32:45):
stuff.
It's like contemplating whatthe, what the deeper expression
might be.
You know, the, the carpentry isa good example.
Okay.
I'm making cabinets and I'mhelping people out and I'm being
looked after and I've got asolid income because of that.
Like, what, What might be adeeper expression of this?
(33:05):
And the answer to that questionis going to be driven by love.
It's not like something thatwe're like, Okay, we have to
logically, architecturally workout.
Um, it's not like, Okay, I canmake cabinets, I should make
cabinets over here.
It's like, I can make cabinets.
I'm a, I am a craftsman ofcabinets.
(33:27):
What, where is my love forbuilding things and using my
hands, drawing me?
Where am I called?
Like listening to the call, youknow, the same, the same kind of
call that takes me, thatinspired me to start the wisdom
school, that has inspired me todo this walk.
Like, we have to listen to thecall that's going to call us a
(33:47):
little bit deeper, and we'llget, we'll get dozens of them
over a lifetime, you know, thesecalls, sometimes they're big,
sometimes they're small, but ifwe don't make ourselves
available to hear them,available to be Penetrated by
the call or penetrate, I saypenetrated, but I mean, like
contacted for it to kind of wakeup inside us, then we're not
(34:10):
able to hear it if we just staybusy all the time that find our
way to the silence in theopenness, then nothing can get
in.
We're just constantly, you know,swiping, scrolling, doing
calling, watching, you know,and.
Yes, I suppose coming fullcircle, it's about creating
(34:31):
space for the call to reach youand just by being open to what
that is, we can be touched andcalled to some way that we're
not yet.
So honoring that we're alreadyon destiny and then opening
ourselves to the call.
This is kind of hero's journeystuff.
You know, you gotta, we gottabe, we gotta be like willing to
(34:53):
hear the thing.
And I think it just takes a,yeah, it takes a willingness to
listen, to take space, tolisten.
James (35:04):
It's, it's hard to listen because you're in this fast
paced world.
And we're, especially, I thinkme men, men are very good at
doing, doing, doing, doing.
And it's hard sometimes if youjust to slow down.
And what I'm finding at thismoment in time, this just this
(35:27):
last, this, this week, this lastday is almost take action what
you can.
and then surrender it, let itgo, and then take an action,
surrender, take action,surrender.
And it is a nice balance ofmasculine action, surrender,
(35:51):
feminine, and it's this nicespiral.
And it just seems to, You know,in the past I've been like, go,
go, go, go.
And then when something's notworking or I get a little bit
overwhelmed, I go and findsomething to distract myself.
Yeah, I,
Matthew (36:07):
um, we have a, I live in an old Tibetan Buddhist
sanctuary.
It's really a farmhouse, but itstill has its like Tibetan
Buddhist roots here.
Um, and we have an altardownstairs and sometimes we
place an altars for those whodon't know.
It's like just a a sacred tablewhere you just kind of put put
(36:29):
things, you know, put littlestatues or you put flowers and
it's just a little holyintention holding table and I
could just put things on thataltar over and over again.
I'm putting something on thealtar, I'm doing, I'm putting
things on the altar but it'sonly when I've stopped after
putting it on the altar andreally take it and be with it
(36:52):
and drop into a moment of realpresence.
That is when we kind of enter aspace of prayer or a space of
openness, a space of holiness, aspace of real presence.
And it's that, that's what theelf is there for.
It's not there to have stuff.
It's there for the moments whereit's gets to touch us, where we
(37:16):
get to be touched by the energyof the altar, by the presence,
by the meaning that lives on thealtar.
So, you know, we can do allthese things, but if when, if we
never create space to be touchedby what we're doing and, and
really feel how we're spendingour time, then we're just, we're
(37:37):
almost in this like artificialAI mind planning, kind of like
creation, do this, do that.
And we can never, we're almostdistracted by our own kind of
our own lives.
We can't find our way to the,the deeper beauty that wants to
be lived and the, the deepercall that wants to come through
(37:59):
and the soul that wants to findits way to the skin, not just
like in the deep bone, not justin kind of kind of hidden in the
core of us.
It wants to find its way to thesurface.
James (38:09):
Nice.
Um, So, obviously, finding spaceand always being overcome by
distraction, distraction,distraction.
What other challenges wouldpeople, will people, um, kind of
come up against when steppinginto sacred leadership?
Matthew (38:29):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
I feel like where we find wethere's this ebb and flow of
being whole and being broken orbeing, you know, we kind of know
ourselves know thyself and thenwe lose ourselves and some
people kind of find their way toknowing knowing things they find
(38:51):
their way to being the Noah.
Okay, I've made it on this is myrole.
This is my sacred leadershiprole.
And they go, Okay, this is whereit is.
And the challenge is.
That that's Not where you endup, that's where we are right
now, and we, and at some pointthere will be a humbling or an
unmaking or a continuing that wehave to allow ourselves to go
(39:12):
on, and so we have a lot of, um,for instance, I'll speak into,
like, I experience a lot of thegurus of this age, um, A lot of
people who sit on thrones andspeak knowledge, I experienced
them to be beautiful and deeplymagical, but also disconnected
from the relational field ofhumanity, like they're not down
(39:35):
on.
on the level with us inrelation.
And it's a lot easier to kind oflike say holy awakening things
when you're not in the the to'sand the fro's and of the
biological tribal relation thatis kind of here with the human
family.
So you could say that the actualthe growth for gurus Is to get
(39:59):
off the throne to get down withthe people and for them to move
from being gurus to elders tobeing the one that knows to
being the one that's a part ofit all and is both being changed
by the others by the other humanbeings and also gently calling
the human family to the placethat they belong.
You know, they feel is true.
(40:21):
So it's a guru isn't relational.
It's kind of, uh, it's a Pisceanage one at the top.
Everyone else listening.
Elder is relational.
It's almost the same idea insome ways, but one of them is in
the community in the humanfamily in the village, and
they're not just the one thatthey're also being changed.
(40:43):
And if the gurus were changed,They'd become relational, they'd
become, they'd kind of get downinto it with us and they would
be penetrated by the rest of usas well.
So, yeah.
James (40:57):
Yes, it's almost like one's on a pedestal, but then
sometimes being on a pedestal,that can become your blind spot.
Yes, you know, you, you, youalmost, you almost because you
sometimes you can almost havetoo much, you know, too much
power and people should do whatyou should you say.
(41:18):
Whereas I think when you're whenyou are there within the people.
The one who is able to give,give knowledge, but also accept
knowledge.
Yes.
You almost become that personwho, it's, it's, I, I feel as
though it's wisdom doesn't comefrom you.
It comes through you.
Matthew (41:40):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And it also allows like, youknow, all of us together as a,
like the collective of us is waymore sent.
We are a sensory being like asensory collective being all of
us.
And so.
The real art is for us to learn,be able to learn from each other
and to be able to, like, be asensory organism together, not
(42:02):
just one direction to here, butfor all directions to come
online and for us to begin tofeel our way through life.
But to answer your your questionjust one more time in a bit more
succinctly, um, and it's kind ofconnected to everything what is
speaking about that one of thechallenges that is that people
(42:23):
don't.
People think that they've cometo the end or they don't they
don't remember that the spiralcontinues and the spiral
continues the spiral of changewill always continue like, you
know, you become the fish at thebottom of the river.
And then you got to become acrab, you know, like the, the
(42:46):
form, um, evolves over time.
And so the best thing thatpeople can do is just to go
forward, knowing that it's justalways going to, the spiral is
going to continue.
There is always going to berisings and fallings.
The sun will rise and the sunwill fall.
The moon will rise.
then the moon will fall, thetides will rise, then the tides
(43:08):
will fall.
But we're going to continue torise and fall, find our way to
like expressions of ourselves,integrate that, ground into
that, and then continue on.
And having the courage tocontinue is probably one of the
greatest, the courage tocontinue, one of the greatest
magics ends.
(43:30):
um, arts of our humanity, um,particularly for those in
leadership, the courage to like,you know, there was a time where
I was, I was in my like sixfigure month coach phase and I
had to have the courage tocontinue to let go of the
business.
That wasn't the truth of meanymore that I could make the
(43:53):
money, but it wasn't the deeperexpression of me.
I had to let that go to stepinto the real world.
The next chapter and which forme has been a more of a
spiritual path, you know, somepeople go the other way as well.
Like, you know, there's no wrongor right direction.
It's just mine was in integritywith myself, the courage to be
in integrity with myself and myintegrity changes our integrity
(44:16):
changes as we move along thespiral because we become attuned
to new things.
We awaken to different thingsand we have to.
Hold that same quality ofintegrity.
It just means different thingsat different points.
Sometimes integrity meansstepping forward and really
standing for ourselves in theworld and building the business.
Sometimes like the businessthat's different to the thing or
(44:36):
the, or the message, theservice.
Other times it's literallyletting go of the thing we just
built to like drop into the nextlayer of it all.
So coming from the coachingworld and the Tony Robbins
world, Um, I don't think theytalk, there's not very much talk
about what comes next, you know,there's not very much talk
about, okay, after the decade ofhaving made it, you're, you're,
(45:02):
you are asked to also in someway, let it go.
And become the next thing thatyou are.
And I think that's like, that'ssacred to let go of the thing
that is like defined as makingit in like the terms of success
in this age, that asks for suchan integrity.
It, like it asked me, I got tothe point where I said the
words.
(45:22):
I think I've made it and itasked for so much integrity and
willingness and I'm still likeit's just that, you know, it
comes back to that same old ideaof at the end of the day, the
only person that we have to behave to impress or have to be
right with is ourselves.
And yeah, that's what integrityis, is being right with
(45:44):
ourselves.
And so it's just my conversationwith myself and it's every man
every other man's conversationwith themselves.
Are you right with yourself?
And are you like, do you feellike you're an integrity with
yourself with how you'rechoosing to move in life and
live in life?
And if you are great, continue.
(46:05):
And know that that integrity isgoing to change as you grow,
because it's how you grow, it'sgoing to ask, integrity will ask
different things, so you have tohold that same courage.
I used to love watching weightloss shows, like Biggest Loser
kind of stuff, I don't know ifyou had it over here in Britain,
we had it in Australia.
Yeah, yeah.
I just had a thing for that.
Cause I love the, like thevisual transformation and the
(46:28):
trainers would always say thatthe contestants would say, is it
going to get easier?
And the trainers would say, it'sgoing to get harder, but you're
going to get stronger.
And it's the same withintegrity.
Like, like, is it, am I going toget to the place of like the end
of it all?
And the answer is no, but you'regoing to be so strong in your
(46:49):
integrity and so, uh, in tunewith yourself.
That you're, you are going tofeel like you're moving through
the world is who you really are,and that is a beautiful thing.
James (47:02):
Yeah, nice, nice.
Can we, can you talk about yourtrip, your walk?
And you mentioned before weobviously went live that you're
starting to feel a little bit offear.
Can you explain a little bitmore?
Matthew (47:19):
Yeah, so the walk is from, uh, the southern tip of
the Isle of Wight, um, up thecentre of England through
Scotland to Durness inScotland's far north.
It's not the longest walk in theUK.
There's there's another one.
Actually the longest walk isaround the entire perimeter.
Like the great coast it's likewhat it's like 2, 000 something
(47:42):
miles or something 3, 000.
I don't know.
It's wild.
And there's another one thatgoes from Is it Jono Grotes to
something landing?
I don't know.
Anyway, it's like down inCornwall to the other tip.
It's almost S shape.
Um, but I'm doing the spine,spine of Albion, which has a
special significance.
(48:02):
Because it represents the, yeah,the spine of these lands, the
actual, like the vertebrae ofthese lands, the, the Kundalini
of these lands, um, and as I, asI walk along the act of it all,
and people coming to walk withme and all, and all the kind of
the magic and the drumming thatwe'll do and the just having a
good time and having chats and,um, little circles we'll do
(48:23):
along the way, that is like amassage up the spine of the
body.
Some people like to massage Likea human body.
I like to massage, like, like awhole block of land and people.
And that's my kind of likecraft.
But you said the fear.
It is a rite of passage.
You know, there's no, like, itis a rite of passage.
(48:43):
My grandfather passed six weeksago.
I'm now the oldest man in thatfamily line.
And I feel it.
I feel the presence of it.
Um, I don't want to put too muchmeaning on it, because we're not
really supposed to put, I'm notsupposed to put too much meaning
on this thing, because themeaning is going to reveal
(49:04):
itself to me.
But it does feel like a rite ofpassage, moving from like,
moving into young, if it was theolden days, or the ancient days,
it'd be like, I'm coming intothe beginnings of Wise One.
Like age, age wise and lifestage wise, um, yeah, the
beginnings of wise one, youknow, it almost goes, it almost
(49:25):
goes like adult wise one elder,you know, and each of them are
like 20 year blocks, roughlyalmost like a generation each in
some ways that we live throughlife.
And so my, yeah, I'm coming intowise one and it isn't because
it's a rite of passage.
I just know what comes withthat.
(49:47):
I've been in, I've had somechronic illness.
I've had a meniscus tear for thelast 18 months.
One leg is less developed nowthan the other from the amount
that I haven't been bearingweight on it.
Um, I've got a frozen shoulder,which is like 70 percent healed.
Um, and I just know that I'mgoing to, there will be points
(50:08):
along this way where even thoughit doesn't make sense, I will
feel like I'm genuinely going todie.
And it will probably be an egodeath.
It'll probably be part of whatit takes to grow gills or to
learn to breathe water, to like,to live the deeper, what it is
to live the deeper currents ofthe river.
(50:30):
But it's going to, in themoment, feel like I'm dying or
that I'm terrified and Yeah,that's just a head for me and to
kind of make it make it be a bitmore tangible for some people.
You know, there's gonna there'llbe moments where I'll get hit by
a car.
They'll be, you know, likewalking on roads though or like
gently hit by a car.
(50:50):
There'll be a moment where.
Um, hooligans are like doingdonuts around my tents.
These things have happenedbefore, right?
I've been hit by a car doing along walk before.
I've had hooligans go around mytent before.
I've had to like, you know, tryand find somewhere to sleep in
the place where I shouldn'tsleep.
And I've like, had to put mytent down behind an Aldi, you
(51:12):
know, like it's like, there'slike the homelessness and then
people shaking the tent in themiddle of the night sort of
thing, you know, like, um, Andthen on top of that, the
blisters and the soreness andthen just having to continue.
So it's, it's a lot for me rightnow, not being like the young,
young, young man that I oncewas.
(51:33):
Um, maybe when I was 23, thiswould have felt a little
different.
It would have felt a bit morelike a athletic thing.
But, um, at the moment with mybody state and, kind of coming
into my 40s now, it just feels abit more like, whew, like this
is going to be hard.
It's going to be really hard.
And I am going to suffer and Ichoose it.
(51:57):
And that scares me.
James (52:02):
It's almost like bring it on kind of thing.
But what I would love to do iswhen you are back after your
walk, we can do another episode.
and we can explore, um, a littlebit about what, what happened
and what you learned along theway.
I'd love that.
So just to finish off, can youtell people a little bit About
(52:26):
what you do.
Matthew (52:27):
Yeah, so, so we have school of living myth.
Um, essentially that's a placewhere I mentor emerging leaders
and I say emerging, but that'snot really an age based thing.
It's just a readiness basedthing.
So I, I, I mentor people throughthe journey of stepping forward
into themselves in a deeper way.
(52:47):
Yeah, it's just a reallybeautiful community of emerging
leaders and we, it's calledschool of living myth.
So it's like leadership throughthe lens of living myth and
living myth is just the, it'sthe myth in the moment, you
know, the myth attuning to kindof like the myth of who we are
and learning, practicing to livethat in the world.
So yeah, if, if someone's anemerging leader, they can come
(53:10):
and spend some time with me.
I also do workshops andimmersions.
Around the UK at the moment, um,yeah, there's people can find me
on at the websiteschooloflivingmyth.
com.
That's the best way to find meor just to follow my YouTube,
which is Matthew Liam Gardner.
Um, and yeah, you know, watch,watch a couple of videos, get a
(53:32):
bit more of a feel for who I am.
And if they ever find their wayinto circle with me or into an
immersion, they're reallypowerful experiences that they
kind of, they, they're acombination of.
almost the modern day, modernday facilitator workshop with
almost a bit of ancient magicand subtle ritual, very subtle
(53:52):
ritual.
It kind of combines all of that.
So, yeah.
And Manchester is the placewhere I do most of my workshops.
So I'm, I'm up there about fiveor six times a year.
James (54:03):
Cool.
That sounds good.
Thank you very much, Matthew.
And I look forward to doing thenext episode where we actually
find out what happened.
Matthew (54:11):
Thanks, James.
In this episode, we take a deepdive into sacred leadership.
We talk about what sacredleadership is.
How it differs from modernunconventional leadership.
And how you can start to embracesacred leadership.
in your life right now.
Welcome to Man (00:19):
A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:40):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (00:57):
We each have a role within the ecosystem of life on
Earth.
One of the great missions of ourlives is attuning to that role
and living it.
Good morning, Matthew.
What do you mean by thatstatement?
Matthew (01:12):
Hello, brother.
Lovely to be here with you.
So the Earth is an ecosystem andwe are all here a part of it.
And I think one of the, one ofthe wisdoms that's been lost is
that we arrive into the worldWith, uh, like the role that we
play within the ecosystemactually seeded inside us, you
(01:34):
can say it's seeded in the DNA.
You can say it's part of thesoul of each of us individually,
but it's part of the lifejourney of each of us to find
our way to building ourrelationship with that role
within the ecosystem.
And you can think about itthrough like a ecosystem.
You know, the animal lens, like,the badger has a role within the
ecosystem of life.
The elephants have a role withinthe ecosystem of life.
(01:57):
The trout has a particular role.
They all have a player place.
They all have a place and fitinto a role within kind of the
greater story.
And we have that as humans, butwe also have that as animals.
as individuals, as individualkind of unique threads within
the greater whole.
So I love that your podcast andthe exploration here is all
about meaning because I feellike that's a real awakening on
(02:21):
earth right now is, you know,what is the meaning that already
Lives inside me.
You know, what's, what's themeaning that's already here that
I get to kind of grow to attuneto over time?
James (02:32):
Yeah.
That's, um, so I feel as thoughwe all have this, we all have
this soul inside us.
And that soul, when we attune toit with its intuition, whatever
you wanna call it, is almostour, it's our guiding compass.
And when we trust our intuition,our compass is able to direct
it.
But when we kind of get caughtup in the outside world, it
(02:55):
almost becomes hard, it almostbecomes overwhelming and hard to
actually understand and todecipher.
Our direction.
Matthew (03:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really hear that.
But the way that it sits, youknow, we all kind of find our
way to metaphors that work forus individually.
And one of the metaphors thatreally works for me is almost
it's almost like the river ofdestiny and we're always on the
river of of destiny.
All of us in every in everymoment are on the river of
destiny.
It's just the depth of the riverthat we've found our way to.
(03:29):
It's the quality of ourselvesthat we've found our way to.
And.
Over a lifetime, if we reallystay the course and, you know,
spiral deeper into ourselves andgo through these journeys of
transformation and rememberingand courageous stepping forward,
I feel like we touch deeperlayers of the river.
We kind of come into deeperexpressions of ourselves and,
(03:53):
you know, someone might be onthe surface.
There's still an expression oflike.
Kind of the core of who theyare, but there's a quality that,
that becomes more apparent whenwe go into the deeper, the
deeper meaning, the deeper self,you know, the, the expression of
ourselves at the core of it all.
James (04:12):
It just brings, it just rings a bell now, actually.
I remember when I went to SouthAmerica doing white water
rafting, and I was caught in aswirl underneath the water.
And it's almost like I almostfeel like, now you mention that,
the swirl, the deeper you go,the, you get a swirl.
And underneath that swirl, it'salmost like it shakes you up,
shakes the old version of you,to help you to unleash the new
(04:35):
version.
Matthew (04:36):
Yeah, totally.
One of the, I love that.
I love that.
I would love to hear about thatstory sometime too, by the way.
Um, for me, it's, it's almostlike the, the depths of the
river are like, we're kind ofgoing into the unconscious.
So we're going out of what wethink we are into like the
deeper truth of ourselves thatwe have to awaken to.
(04:57):
And it's quite a radical thingto really, Contact who we are at
the core of ourselves,particularly because we've been
conditioned by the world.
So so strongly and we kind ofcome with layers of trauma.
And so when we contact when wecontact those deeper parts of
ourselves, it's a real radicalthing.
And one of the ways I like totalk about it is.
(05:17):
You know, if we want to swim inthe depths, we're going to have
to learn to breathe water.
And that's a transformationalprocess.
Like we have, it's almost likegoing from the one that floats
on the surface to the one whogrows gills and becomes a whole
other being.
So there's thistransformational, almost this
mythic transformational processwhere we become Something that
(05:38):
we don't, we wouldn't originallyrecognize necessarily, but it is
so innately the truth of what weare.
And I just, I love that idea ofhaving to become something else,
but that something else isactually like the deeper truth
of us.
James (05:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I, I hear you wouldn't I?
Yeah, it was, it was quite aterrifying experience, the, uh,
whitewater rafting, but it was,it was fun overall.
Can you tell us about yourself?
Who, who are you, shall we
Matthew (06:06):
say?
Yeah, so my name, my name isMatthew Liam Gardner.
I have, um, you could call me ateacher and a mentor.
I'm something like that.
Uh, I I, I lead, I founded and Ilead a mystery school or a
wisdom school called School ofLiving Myth and this is our
second year now.
I've been mentoring and teachingfor two decades now at kind of
(06:29):
increasing levels of qualityalong the way.
It's been a really long journeyof kind of finding my way to
where I am now.
Yeah, the school has been mykind of the thing I'm dedicated
to the last couple of years.
Um, it is a space where some ofthe forgotten wisdoms come
through and some of the emergentones arise as well.
(06:49):
So, you know, we're connected tothe threads of ancestry and
ancestors.
We're connected to threads oflike the great cycles of time
and the story of humanity andthe story of us individually.
destiny and embodiment, all kindof woven in together, purpose,
you know, all of that woven intogether.
That's where I spend my days.
(07:10):
And we just, we take it from abit of a, you could say I come
in from a bit of a, it's almostpart esoteric, Len, a part
esoteric side, but it's alsopart indigenous.
Um, I think a lot of what I'mholding point for in the world
is almost like, uh, In someways, it's European people or
(07:31):
Caucasian people or white peopleremembering that they have a
seat at the fire as well and,and remembering what it takes to
like, find our way to that seat.
Um, you know, when we sayculture, often when someone says
culture, often they point awayfrom themselves, culture, it's
over there, you know, likeindigenous is over there.
And there's this reclamationprocess that is a long one, and
(07:54):
it's very nuanced, but it'sabout coming back to pointing at
ourselves and saying culture,pointing at ourselves and saying
indigenous or at least belongingand everything that comes with
that, which is a real, you know,it's a real kind of deep
humanity journey that we're onright now.
Oh, and I'm also doing thiswalk.
I'm about to go, and I'm aboutto walk.
(08:15):
Roughly 900 miles, somewherebetween 900 and a thousand miles
thereabouts we think it's goingto be from the Isle of Wight up
the up and along the spine ofAlbion which is a Like a sacred
site, ley line, energy portal,magic, all along the, like,
straight up the middle ofBritain, all the way to Durness
(08:36):
in Scotland's far north, andit's a bit of a personal
pilgrimage, a rite of passage,and a community stirring at the
same time, a bit of a culturalrenewal, a call for cultural
renewal at the same time, and Ibegin in like nine days, so I'm
right in the thick of it rightnow, brother.
James (08:53):
Nice, um.
I would love to hear, how didyou actually get onto this path?
What was it that, because Idon't know if you're like me,
but it took me probably a good20, um, 28, 30 years to really,
to get rid of, not get rid of,to kind of realize that there's
(09:14):
more to life than what I wasliving.
How did you get onto this path,this journey?
Matthew (09:19):
Yeah, I feel like I started really young in a subtle
way because I, I was the oldestbrother and I was in the
fatherless household and littleme, like really, when, when,
when dad left, I made it mean,you know, You know, it's, it's
my job to be a leader for mybrothers and it's my, and I kind
(09:40):
of had a sense of things, youknow, I could fit as a four year
old.
I used to go up to people attraffic lights and say, why are
you fat?
Or I'd go up smoking.
I'd be like, do you want to die?
Why are you smoking?
You know, I'm just like, I wasthis kind of really direct
straight shooter, four year old.
Um, and I had this sense thatthe world was something wasn't,
(10:00):
wasn't quite right.
Like right is the way I wouldmaybe describe it like there was
a there was some stuff kind ofthe world was weird And I I not
everything was as it seemed Ikind of got that one pretty
early on And so my love for mybrothers really set me on a
journey of like finding my wayto you could say truth or what
(10:22):
is real or what is actuallysustainable or what is actually
love And that just catalyzed meinto You early days, personal
development, Tony Robbin world,you know, like, um, just really
journeying through those realms.
And eventually I got to a pointwhere I was old enough and I
started doing workshops and thenI started doing my own retreats
(10:44):
and then I've kind of journeyedquite far along those, along
that road, that road.
And I've just found myself in aspace now where, cause the road
continues, you know, like thespiral continues.
There's always, you know,everything that we think we want
to be, we kind of one day getthere.
Uh, and then.
Eventually it spirals into thenext thing as well and you know
like the like that fish in thewater Like we don't know what
(11:06):
comes after we get there And soI kind of got to some places and
then have spiraled into the nextstage So i've just been
following the thread my wholelife and To be honest, I'm a
little, I love it.
There's like, it's, it's justsuch a rich and exciting
adventure.
Like if, if I'm going to be ahuman being and living on earth
right now, I'm going to be onthe quest of becoming myself and
(11:29):
I'm going to be on the adventureof like learning everything that
I can and, um, becomingeverything that I can in this
lifetime.
So it just, to me, it feels likea great adventure and like the
only game.
Like, they're only big gamereally worth playing, so I want
to play it.
James (11:46):
Yeah, nice.
It's um, it's one of them, oneof them journeys that once you
start and you realize, yes, it'shard, but you wouldn't, I, I
would never go back.
I would never go back to where Iwas 10 years ago, simply because
the changes that you kind ofincorporate into yourself are
life changing.
(12:06):
And it's this idea that when youstart to discover who you
actually are, there's asacredness to it.
And that sacredness is where wecan really discover what we're
actually meant to do here.
And as you said, you know, youhave this idea that I'm going to
(12:27):
be this new version of me, butyou get this new version.
And you've got another newversion, and another new
version, and it's always likelayering up.
You're like a computer game, youknow, you, you battle one thing,
and you level up in the game,and you're like, yes, next one.
But yeah, it's this, thisjourney that of explore,
exploring ourselves to really, Ireckon sometimes to drop the
(12:52):
outer layers.
Matthew (12:54):
Yeah, so just just hearing you share that what I
was feeling was this journey of,you know, one day you and I are
going to be in our 70s.
And I don't know about you, butfor me, I'm never going to
retire.
Like that's not my journey.
I'm like, this is, this is aboutso much more than money or, you
know, this, this is like a wayof being and a life to be lived.
(13:16):
So the 70 year old me is goingto be very different to the, to
who I am right now.
You know, there's going to be.
The Adelaide is that will peeloff and I'll probably be a lot
slower.
I'll probably be a lot, a lotmore graceful, not so fiery and,
you know, pokey all the time.
And I suppose what I'm sayingthere is, yeah, the Adelaide is
(13:37):
fall off.
And in some sense, as we comedeeper into life, like the kind
of that squidgy inner beingreveals themselves like the
grace and the innocence and theneeding help.
Sometimes, you know, it's, youknow, that the whole idea of
like, The deeper into life weget, we kind of come back to
being a child and, you know, thelike really kind of integrated
elders also deeply embody theirchild and allow themselves to
(14:01):
receive support and stillpowerfully stand in who they
are.
Um, but that's who I think isthis full circle that we go on.
Um, yeah, shedding those skinsas we do.
James (14:12):
It's, um, you tend to get told as a, as a teenager.
That, stop being a child, growup, then you get to probably
your 30s if you're lucky, 40sdefinitely, and you're told, and
you know, you learn that, do youknow something, I want to be
more like a child, so you kindof have this idea that you get
told not to be a child, and thenyou get told, and then not get
(14:35):
told, you kind of learn to be achild again, and when you start
to learn that, to be that childagain, there's that um, That
childlike playfulness and thatlightness, so almost that sense
of surrender.
You can't control what'shappening.
And so I think a lot of childrenjust kind of roll with it.
Matthew (14:55):
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's just about, youknow, finding our way to being
ourselves while also, you know,that becomes brings back that
river of destiny, you know,we're still floating on the
river, you know, and there has,there does have to be a
surrender along the way, becauselike the current's got us and we
can either fight it or like gowith it.
(15:17):
And the going with it is trust.
You know, like there are timesto forge our path, but even that
is a trusting, you know, to likethis walk, for instance, I, it
doesn't make sense, but I haveto trust and there is a forging
in it, but it's still me justkind of surrendering to the
deeper call and there is adeeper call, you know, the, I
(15:37):
said the deeper call, but it'sthe, it's almost like what
compels us.
What, what compels us, eventhough we can't necessarily make
sense of it, we don't need toreally.
It's just, if it, if it calls usso powerfully that we have to
answer it's for us, you know,there's almost no doubt around
it.
James (15:56):
Yeah, definitely.
You talk about sacredleadership.
What is sacred leadership?
Matthew (16:04):
Yeah.
So one of my mentors is a, is aman called Mack McCartney and
he's, I think he's I think hisnext birthday is 74.
I think so.
Something like that.
And I consider Mac to be one ofthe key elders here in the UK,
(16:24):
in Britain.
And one of the things he says Ireally love, it's, you know,
everyone has the pieces thatthey take with them and say it
over and over again, and this isone of his.
So I want to, I don't just wantto say it, I want to let people
know this is his.
He says.
When you know what you mostdeeply and profoundly love, you
(16:46):
have in a sense defined what issacred to you.
When you know what it is thatyou most deeply and profoundly
love, you have in a sensedefined what is sacred to you.
And so there's lots ofdirections we could go talking
about sacred leadership, but Ifeel for today that probably the
(17:07):
most important part is just toacknowledge that it is, it is.
letting ourselves be penetratedand changed and grown by what we
most deeply and profoundly loveand really trusting that what we
deeply and profoundly love isour sacred work in the world.
It is our, it is what we'recalled to and It almost shows
(17:33):
the way in some ways.
So it comes back to this reallysimple and it's and it's in its
simplest way it comes back tothis simple idea of like okay
like what do you like love somuch that it brings tears to
your eyes and what is soprofoundly real for us that it
Just it just changes us likewhat I see some of my brothers
(17:55):
when they have a child and theyhold that child in their Hands
for the first time and then itchanged like they are changed in
that moment.
Something goes Like and nowwe're in a whole other timeline,
you know They are grown by thisalmost initiatory moment and
it's the same for like what welove but I know this is part of
(18:15):
why I love what you're up tobecause Us attuning to what we
really love like and because wehave to be set where sense
making beings we have to makesense of the feelings in the
polls and I don't know if allthat many people take the time
in their lives to really spendtime resting into what is it
that I most deeply andprofoundly love and can I give
(18:39):
my life to that can I becourageous enough to give my
life to And that's thebeginnings of sacred leadership.
It's, it's that the willingnessto, to be the love that we are
in the world.
And, you know, when, when welove something so much that it
brings tears to our eyes thatactivates.
It that activates and initiatesthose deeper layers of us, you
(19:01):
know, it calls upon the strengthall of a sudden where we're
moving through the world chargedwith a love and a Courage, you
know, I don't know about you butIn some in some sense for me
going back to my brothers in thebeginning.
It was my love for my brothersThat became my life path And
then my brothers are now myhuman family And so it's that
(19:24):
same love still that compelledme to begin this journey with my
brothers that's actually got mewalking this walk.
You know, it's, it's my love forthe change.
It doesn't even make sensenecessarily, but it's my love
for the, the change and theevolution of all of us and us
coming into the next chaptertogether, beginning to do this
better together.
(19:45):
So, yeah, what, what do you mostdeeply and profoundly love?
I soaked in those words for acouple of years and I tell you
what, it changed me.
There's no other way to say it.
Just sitting with, you know, Ilike to sit with particular
things for a few seasons.
Some, some things are like forjust a moment or just a day.
(20:06):
Other things are like for acouple of years and that one for
me was for a couple of years.
And those were the years where Itransitioned into the school
transitioned into, um, what Iwould call a bit of a deeper
path.
And I began to my experiences.
I began to embody.
(20:27):
Something that I could alwaysfeel was possible in my life,
but like my poetry, forinstance, I could all read
people's poetry or their writingand I'd be like, how does that
person write so well, like, youknow, I could, I would try, but
I could never quite get my soulinto my words, you know, it was
very, it was very mindy in a lotof ways.
(20:50):
Ends.
Over those years being connectedto what I most deeply and
profoundly love, it broughtthrough my love into my words.
It brought my soul into mywords.
And so my writing matured and itgrew.
And so this is, it's part of howthat love changes us.
It literally grows us becausewe're, it's like being invested.
(21:10):
And I come from a sportsbackground.
And I have always my whole lifebeing all the way in wherever I
am.
So if I'm on the, if I'm playing40, you know, football and I'm
on the, I'm on the field, I'mgoing to bring all of myself to
that experience.
And it's just the same all theseyears later, you know, I'm going
to, I'm going to bring all ofmyself to my poetry.
(21:32):
I'm going to bring all of myselfto my writing.
If I'm going to sit in circlewith my brothers, I'm going to
bring all of myself there.
And I think.
It's that love that makes thathappen.
It's that love that pulls usinto the moment and has us fully
engaged.
I think we live in a momentwhere a lot of our, a lot of our
brothers out there are reallytentative.
(21:54):
They've kind of got one foot inlife and one foot out of life.
You know, there's a, and I mean,What was that?
James (22:04):
Is it back and forth?
Yeah, back and forth.
And there's, and I think it'sreally fair that there's a back
and forth.
I think that's really, it's,it's justified, but there is.
There is something to be saidfor truly choosing the, like,
what we deeply know to be trueinside us and trusting, trusting
(22:24):
the path is gonna take us to allthe places that we never knew we
had to go to and we just have tolean in.
So that's been my experience.
In the next stage of it all, um,through these words from Mac.
Yeah.
That, that relates, I've heardit before about, from other,
from people about your purposeis what you look doing.
(22:46):
And with the podcast, what Ifound is that this is, this will
be the 28th pod, uh, interviewthat I've done.
And so it's this idea that whenyou find something that you love
doing, it flows as well.
So literally I started in Augustand literally the podcast just
(23:08):
flowed and I've even had got toa point where I had six weeks in
New Zealand and I, what I didwas that I made sure I got
enough episodes for it to streamwhile I was away.
So, but it's just one of thosethings that just flows, people
come in, the episodes flow, theediting flows, and it's about, I
(23:32):
feel as though when it comes tothe idea of, um, doing what you
love, there's a sense that whenyou are able to literally just
drop in and let it flow, itbecomes easy, timeless.
Matthew (23:51):
Yeah,
James (23:51):
becomes timeless.
Matthew (23:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I believe that.
I really believe that.
And that's, that's my experienceas well.
It's like we, when we're doingwhat we are supposed to be
doing, it just makes sense.
We feel it.
It's not always comfortable andit's not always easy, but it
does flow.
You know, it does ask, it doesask things of us, but it does
(24:15):
absolutely feel, we just know itin our bodies, don't we?
We, Oh, this is, I'm supposed tobe doing this.
There's just.
This is it for sure.
James (24:23):
This just feels right.
How does sacred leadershipdiffer from normal leadership?
Matthew (24:31):
Yeah, so I think there's a couple of different
ways we could talk about it.
Um, but I just want to kind ofmeet the time frames that we
have here and just what this is.
You can think about it as the,the being changed by that love
over time.
So, you know, we've beenspeaking about spiraling and
(24:52):
changing as time goes on.
Sacred leadership means that weare, like we said, like that
statement you said at thebeginning, there is an ecosystem
on earth and we are taking ourrole within it.
So sacred leadership is whenwe're living that role beyond
industry.
(25:12):
Beyond modern constructs oflike, beyond like modern
constructs of society, we canstill be, you know, doing all of
that as well, but it is thepart, it's the role that we're
playing that is beyond theconditioning of our time.
And what I mean by that is, youknow, for instance, you could,
you could say that I'm a coachstill, I coach and I mentor and
(25:34):
that's, I still do one on onesessions with people.
That's a part of my life.
Um, but then if you look at thiswalk, which.
is a, is an act of communityrallying and cultural renewal.
And there's no kind of gain init for me.
Not that sacred leadershipdoesn't have an exchange.
There's a deeper it's comingfrom a deeper place than looking
(25:57):
after myself.
It's coming from a place of whoam I and what's my role on earth
in these times?
And do I have the courage andwillingness to actually play
that role?
So it's almost like the rolethat we play outside of
industry, even if it expressesitself in industry.
(26:19):
So take, take a carpenter as anexample.
Someone who builds things, theymake things, they make things
that are functional.
Some carpenters like to makethings that are beautiful and
they have their job, like theircarpentry job where they make
houses or they or cabinets orhowever it plays out.
(26:39):
That same carpenter, not justdoing their job, but actually
thinking where am I going tobring my carpentry skills, my
creation skills on earth rightnow that, that adds the most of
my abilities and craft and loveto this world.
And so they can still have thejob, but there's also this like,
(27:01):
This turning towards the, thecontribution of a greater
dreaming.
You know, we're all a part of agreater dreaming and the sacred
leadership is when we engageinto that greater dreaming.
Not just the, the surface level.
The surface level is I'm acarpenter.
I do my job.
I make things for people.
Like perhaps the deeper level isI have a craft that can
(27:23):
literally tangibly build.
The physical world that comesnext, how am I going to, how am
I going to be part of buildingthe world that comes next and
how can I use my, my skills todo that?
And some carpenters find theirways to, for instance.
Building roundhouses andcreating like spaces where some
(27:45):
of the cultural renewal andmen's circles and sweat lodges
and these like these sort ofthings where they can take
place, their carpentry begins tocreate the opportunities.
For, you know, someone like meor someone like you to come in
and hold that circle and be inthat space.
And so they're playing theirrole.
We're playing our role, howeverit looks.
(28:07):
And, but it's where it's comingfrom.
What depth of the river is itcoming from?
That is what defines the sacredleadership piece.
James (28:17):
So it's almost going from the idea that leadership that
leadership is.
about the external people.
So it's, it's about me tothinking about the bigger
picture, the more, more alongthe lines of where as a human
(28:38):
race are we heading?
Matthew (28:40):
Totally.
It's almost like if you think ofour, if we think about human
family, like humanity as ourhuman family, which we actually
are, you know, you can kind oflike trace us all back to some
big kind of shared beginnings insome, um, In some way, right?
So we are a human family in somesense, the same way that all
elephants are related.
You know, we are all connectedin that same relational way.
(29:05):
And it's relating to the humanfamily as a grown one, not a,
not a taker from the ecosystem,but a contributor to the
ecosystem.
The contributing to theecosystem is, is the leadership
part of sacred leadership.
The how we contribute, that'sthe sacred.
So it's like, okay, so we'recontributing to the ecosystem.
(29:27):
We're playing our unique role.
Yeah, the, the quality of ourunique role.
That's the sacred.
Can we contribute to theecosystem in the way that is not
just the most quantitative, butis the most qualitative as
according to the being that Iam.
Like for me, for instance, mymost quality contribution to the
(29:49):
ecosystem isn't carpentry.
That's not, that's not mine.
I'm a, I'm like a.
human relations kind of person.
I'm a bit more of a, you know,I've got to know, and that's,
that's innate to me.
That's like innate to how I've,part of how I was raised, a part
of what lives in my DNA, a partof how my dad is a cuddly being,
(30:10):
you know, it's like, it's a partof the story of me that I have
to attune to over a lifetime andthen live that in a way that
contributes to the ecosystem.
James (30:22):
So it's more how, it's more about how can we co create
for each of us have a differentpiece of the puzzle and it's
about almost bringing this pieceof the puzzle together to make
the bigger whole.
Matthew (30:42):
Yes, yeah, and in that world don't have gurus anymore,
because, whoever the teacher is,or whoever's playing the role of
teacher is equal to thecarpenter.
Because the carpenter is playingtheir highest expression of
their role, the teacher'splaying their highest expression
of their role, the cook isplaying their highest expression
(31:03):
of their role.
And because we're all playingour highest expressions of our
roles.
We're all like, that's thecircle.
That's the circle of like trueequality.
And it's, we're all grown.
We're all in grown states ofhumanity contributing to the
ecosystem.
So that's the, that's the dreamanyway.
James (31:25):
So how, how can, so if anybody listening here now, how
can people start to really movefrom leadership into sacred
leadership?
Matthew (31:37):
Yeah.
So, you know, I mean, I thinkthe first piece is to
acknowledge that they're alreadyliving their destiny.
Like, that's a bit of a humblingthing for some people,
particularly if you're, ifyou're broke, or if you're in a
relationship breakdown, or justin a moment in life where it's
just a bit, of the same thingover, you know, or, or we're
just focused on, you know, doingparticular things that excite us
(32:00):
and caught up in our own kind ofexcitement.
Um, I think the first thing toacknowledge is that we're all
living our destiny.
And just to rest into that, liketo breathe that for a moment,
this is my destiny.
Like I, like I am already anexpression of myself.
I am already Living who I amnow, my, my, my role, my task,
(32:23):
my quest is, can I spiral into adeeper quality in the seasons
and the years and the decadesahead so that the quality of me.
is even more of what I am in theworld.
So an acknowledgement of thedestiny and then a beginning to
explore and just consider likecontemplate, it's pretty simple
(32:45):
stuff.
It's like contemplating whatthe, what the deeper expression
might be.
You know, the, the carpentry isa good example.
Okay.
I'm making cabinets and I'mhelping people out and I'm being
looked after and I've got asolid income because of that.
Like, what, What might be adeeper expression of this?
(33:05):
And the answer to that questionis going to be driven by love.
It's not like something thatwe're like, Okay, we have to
logically, architecturally workout.
Um, it's not like, Okay, I canmake cabinets, I should make
cabinets over here.
It's like, I can make cabinets.
I'm a, I am a craftsman ofcabinets.
(33:27):
What, where is my love forbuilding things and using my
hands, drawing me?
Where am I called?
Like listening to the call, youknow, the same, the same kind of
call that takes me, thatinspired me to start the wisdom
school, that has inspired me todo this walk.
Like, we have to listen to thecall that's going to call us a
(33:47):
little bit deeper, and we'llget, we'll get dozens of them
over a lifetime, you know, thesecalls, sometimes they're big,
sometimes they're small, but ifwe don't make ourselves
available to hear them,available to be Penetrated by
the call or penetrate, I saypenetrated, but I mean, like
contacted for it to kind of wakeup inside us, then we're not
(34:10):
able to hear it if we just staybusy all the time that find our
way to the silence in theopenness, then nothing can get
in.
We're just constantly, you know,swiping, scrolling, doing
calling, watching, you know,and.
Yes, I suppose coming fullcircle, it's about creating
(34:31):
space for the call to reach youand just by being open to what
that is, we can be touched andcalled to some way that we're
not yet.
So honoring that we're alreadyon destiny and then opening
ourselves to the call.
This is kind of hero's journeystuff.
You know, you gotta, we gottabe, we gotta be like willing to
(34:53):
hear the thing.
And I think it just takes a,yeah, it takes a willingness to
listen, to take space, tolisten.
James (35:04):
It's, it's hard to listen because you're in this fast
paced world.
And we're, especially, I thinkme men, men are very good at
doing, doing, doing, doing.
And it's hard sometimes if youjust to slow down.
And what I'm finding at thismoment in time, this just this
(35:27):
last, this, this week, this lastday is almost take action what
you can.
and then surrender it, let itgo, and then take an action,
surrender, take action,surrender.
And it is a nice balance ofmasculine action, surrender,
(35:51):
feminine, and it's this nicespiral.
And it just seems to, You know,in the past I've been like, go,
go, go, go.
And then when something's notworking or I get a little bit
overwhelmed, I go and findsomething to distract myself.
Yeah, I,
Matthew (36:07):
um, we have a, I live in an old Tibetan Buddhist
sanctuary.
It's really a farmhouse, but itstill has its like Tibetan
Buddhist roots here.
Um, and we have an altardownstairs and sometimes we
place an altars for those whodon't know.
It's like just a a sacred tablewhere you just kind of put put
(36:29):
things, you know, put littlestatues or you put flowers and
it's just a little holyintention holding table and I
could just put things on thataltar over and over again.
I'm putting something on thealtar, I'm doing, I'm putting
things on the altar but it'sonly when I've stopped after
putting it on the altar andreally take it and be with it
(36:52):
and drop into a moment of realpresence.
That is when we kind of enter aspace of prayer or a space of
openness, a space of holiness, aspace of real presence.
And it's that, that's what theelf is there for.
It's not there to have stuff.
It's there for the moments whereit's gets to touch us, where we
(37:16):
get to be touched by the energyof the altar, by the presence,
by the meaning that lives on thealtar.
So, you know, we can do allthese things, but if when, if we
never create space to be touchedby what we're doing and, and
really feel how we're spendingour time, then we're just, we're
(37:37):
almost in this like artificialAI mind planning, kind of like
creation, do this, do that.
And we can never, we're almostdistracted by our own kind of
our own lives.
We can't find our way to the,the deeper beauty that wants to
be lived and the, the deepercall that wants to come through
(37:59):
and the soul that wants to findits way to the skin, not just
like in the deep bone, not justin kind of kind of hidden in the
core of us.
It wants to find its way to thesurface.
James (38:09):
Nice.
Um, So, obviously, finding spaceand always being overcome by
distraction, distraction,distraction.
What other challenges wouldpeople, will people, um, kind of
come up against when steppinginto sacred leadership?
Matthew (38:29):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
I feel like where we find wethere's this ebb and flow of
being whole and being broken orbeing, you know, we kind of know
ourselves know thyself and thenwe lose ourselves and some
people kind of find their way toknowing knowing things they find
(38:51):
their way to being the Noah.
Okay, I've made it on this is myrole.
This is my sacred leadershiprole.
And they go, Okay, this is whereit is.
And the challenge is.
That that's Not where you endup, that's where we are right
now, and we, and at some pointthere will be a humbling or an
unmaking or a continuing that wehave to allow ourselves to go
(39:12):
on, and so we have a lot of, um,for instance, I'll speak into,
like, I experience a lot of thegurus of this age, um, A lot of
people who sit on thrones andspeak knowledge, I experienced
them to be beautiful and deeplymagical, but also disconnected
from the relational field ofhumanity, like they're not down
(39:35):
on.
on the level with us inrelation.
And it's a lot easier to kind oflike say holy awakening things
when you're not in the the to'sand the fro's and of the
biological tribal relation thatis kind of here with the human
family.
So you could say that the actualthe growth for gurus Is to get
(39:59):
off the throne to get down withthe people and for them to move
from being gurus to elders tobeing the one that knows to
being the one that's a part ofit all and is both being changed
by the others by the other humanbeings and also gently calling
the human family to the placethat they belong.
You know, they feel is true.
(40:21):
So it's a guru isn't relational.
It's kind of, uh, it's a Pisceanage one at the top.
Everyone else listening.
Elder is relational.
It's almost the same idea insome ways, but one of them is in
the community in the humanfamily in the village, and
they're not just the one thatthey're also being changed.
(40:43):
And if the gurus were changed,They'd become relational, they'd
become, they'd kind of get downinto it with us and they would
be penetrated by the rest of usas well.
So, yeah.
James (40:57):
Yes, it's almost like one's on a pedestal, but then
sometimes being on a pedestal,that can become your blind spot.
Yes, you know, you, you, youalmost, you almost because you
sometimes you can almost havetoo much, you know, too much
power and people should do whatyou should you say.
(41:18):
Whereas I think when you're whenyou are there within the people.
The one who is able to give,give knowledge, but also accept
knowledge.
Yes.
You almost become that personwho, it's, it's, I, I feel as
though it's wisdom doesn't comefrom you.
It comes through you.
Matthew (41:40):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And it also allows like, youknow, all of us together as a,
like the collective of us is waymore sent.
We are a sensory being like asensory collective being all of
us.
And so.
The real art is for us to learn,be able to learn from each other
and to be able to, like, be asensory organism together, not
(42:02):
just one direction to here, butfor all directions to come
online and for us to begin tofeel our way through life.
But to answer your your questionjust one more time in a bit more
succinctly, um, and it's kind ofconnected to everything what is
speaking about that one of thechallenges that is that people
(42:23):
don't.
People think that they've cometo the end or they don't they
don't remember that the spiralcontinues and the spiral
continues the spiral of changewill always continue like, you
know, you become the fish at thebottom of the river.
And then you got to become acrab, you know, like the, the
(42:46):
form, um, evolves over time.
And so the best thing thatpeople can do is just to go
forward, knowing that it's justalways going to, the spiral is
going to continue.
There is always going to berisings and fallings.
The sun will rise and the sunwill fall.
The moon will rise.
then the moon will fall, thetides will rise, then the tides
(43:08):
will fall.
But we're going to continue torise and fall, find our way to
like expressions of ourselves,integrate that, ground into
that, and then continue on.
And having the courage tocontinue is probably one of the
greatest, the courage tocontinue, one of the greatest
magics ends.
(43:30):
um, arts of our humanity, um,particularly for those in
leadership, the courage to like,you know, there was a time where
I was, I was in my like sixfigure month coach phase and I
had to have the courage tocontinue to let go of the
business.
That wasn't the truth of meanymore that I could make the
(43:53):
money, but it wasn't the deeperexpression of me.
I had to let that go to stepinto the real world.
The next chapter and which forme has been a more of a
spiritual path, you know, somepeople go the other way as well.
Like, you know, there's no wrongor right direction.
It's just mine was in integritywith myself, the courage to be
in integrity with myself and myintegrity changes our integrity
(44:16):
changes as we move along thespiral because we become attuned
to new things.
We awaken to different thingsand we have to.
Hold that same quality ofintegrity.
It just means different thingsat different points.
Sometimes integrity meansstepping forward and really
standing for ourselves in theworld and building the business.
Sometimes like the businessthat's different to the thing or
(44:36):
the, or the message, theservice.
Other times it's literallyletting go of the thing we just
built to like drop into the nextlayer of it all.
So coming from the coachingworld and the Tony Robbins
world, Um, I don't think theytalk, there's not very much talk
about what comes next, you know,there's not very much talk
about, okay, after the decade ofhaving made it, you're, you're,
(45:02):
you are asked to also in someway, let it go.
And become the next thing thatyou are.
And I think that's like, that'ssacred to let go of the thing
that is like defined as makingit in like the terms of success
in this age, that asks for suchan integrity.
It, like it asked me, I got tothe point where I said the
words.
(45:22):
I think I've made it and itasked for so much integrity and
willingness and I'm still likeit's just that, you know, it
comes back to that same old ideaof at the end of the day, the
only person that we have to behave to impress or have to be
right with is ourselves.
And yeah, that's what integrityis, is being right with
(45:44):
ourselves.
And so it's just my conversationwith myself and it's every man
every other man's conversationwith themselves.
Are you right with yourself?
And are you like, do you feellike you're an integrity with
yourself with how you'rechoosing to move in life and
live in life?
And if you are great, continue.
(46:05):
And know that that integrity isgoing to change as you grow,
because it's how you grow, it'sgoing to ask, integrity will ask
different things, so you have tohold that same courage.
I used to love watching weightloss shows, like Biggest Loser
kind of stuff, I don't know ifyou had it over here in Britain,
we had it in Australia.
Yeah, yeah.
I just had a thing for that.
Cause I love the, like thevisual transformation and the
(46:28):
trainers would always say thatthe contestants would say, is it
going to get easier?
And the trainers would say, it'sgoing to get harder, but you're
going to get stronger.
And it's the same withintegrity.
Like, like, is it, am I going toget to the place of like the end
of it all?
And the answer is no, but you'regoing to be so strong in your
(46:49):
integrity and so, uh, in tunewith yourself.
That you're, you are going tofeel like you're moving through
the world is who you really are,and that is a beautiful thing.
James (47:02):
Yeah, nice, nice.
Can we, can you talk about yourtrip, your walk?
And you mentioned before weobviously went live that you're
starting to feel a little bit offear.
Can you explain a little bitmore?
Matthew (47:19):
Yeah, so the walk is from, uh, the southern tip of
the Isle of Wight, um, up thecentre of England through
Scotland to Durness inScotland's far north.
It's not the longest walk in theUK.
There's there's another one.
Actually the longest walk isaround the entire perimeter.
Like the great coast it's likewhat it's like 2, 000 something
(47:42):
miles or something 3, 000.
I don't know.
It's wild.
And there's another one thatgoes from Is it Jono Grotes to
something landing?
I don't know.
Anyway, it's like down inCornwall to the other tip.
It's almost S shape.
Um, but I'm doing the spine,spine of Albion, which has a
special significance.
(48:02):
Because it represents the, yeah,the spine of these lands, the
actual, like the vertebrae ofthese lands, the, the Kundalini
of these lands, um, and as I, asI walk along the act of it all,
and people coming to walk withme and all, and all the kind of
the magic and the drumming thatwe'll do and the just having a
good time and having chats and,um, little circles we'll do
(48:23):
along the way, that is like amassage up the spine of the
body.
Some people like to massage Likea human body.
I like to massage, like, like awhole block of land and people.
And that's my kind of likecraft.
But you said the fear.
It is a rite of passage.
You know, there's no, like, itis a rite of passage.
(48:43):
My grandfather passed six weeksago.
I'm now the oldest man in thatfamily line.
And I feel it.
I feel the presence of it.
Um, I don't want to put too muchmeaning on it, because we're not
really supposed to put, I'm notsupposed to put too much meaning
on this thing, because themeaning is going to reveal
(49:04):
itself to me.
But it does feel like a rite ofpassage, moving from like,
moving into young, if it was theolden days, or the ancient days,
it'd be like, I'm coming intothe beginnings of Wise One.
Like age, age wise and lifestage wise, um, yeah, the
beginnings of wise one, youknow, it almost goes, it almost
(49:25):
goes like adult wise one elder,you know, and each of them are
like 20 year blocks, roughlyalmost like a generation each in
some ways that we live throughlife.
And so my, yeah, I'm coming intowise one and it isn't because
it's a rite of passage.
I just know what comes withthat.
(49:47):
I've been in, I've had somechronic illness.
I've had a meniscus tear for thelast 18 months.
One leg is less developed nowthan the other from the amount
that I haven't been bearingweight on it.
Um, I've got a frozen shoulder,which is like 70 percent healed.
Um, and I just know that I'mgoing to, there will be points
(50:08):
along this way where even thoughit doesn't make sense, I will
feel like I'm genuinely going todie.
And it will probably be an egodeath.
It'll probably be part of whatit takes to grow gills or to
learn to breathe water, to like,to live the deeper, what it is
to live the deeper currents ofthe river.
(50:30):
But it's going to, in themoment, feel like I'm dying or
that I'm terrified and Yeah,that's just a head for me and to
kind of make it make it be a bitmore tangible for some people.
You know, there's gonna there'llbe moments where I'll get hit by
a car.
They'll be, you know, likewalking on roads though or like
gently hit by a car.
(50:50):
There'll be a moment where.
Um, hooligans are like doingdonuts around my tents.
These things have happenedbefore, right?
I've been hit by a car doing along walk before.
I've had hooligans go around mytent before.
I've had to like, you know, tryand find somewhere to sleep in
the place where I shouldn'tsleep.
And I've like, had to put mytent down behind an Aldi, you
(51:12):
know, like it's like, there'slike the homelessness and then
people shaking the tent in themiddle of the night sort of
thing, you know, like, um, Andthen on top of that, the
blisters and the soreness andthen just having to continue.
So it's, it's a lot for me rightnow, not being like the young,
young, young man that I oncewas.
(51:33):
Um, maybe when I was 23, thiswould have felt a little
different.
It would have felt a bit morelike a athletic thing.
But, um, at the moment with mybody state and, kind of coming
into my 40s now, it just feels abit more like, whew, like this
is going to be hard.
It's going to be really hard.
And I am going to suffer and Ichoose it.
(51:57):
And that scares me.
James (52:02):
It's almost like bring it on kind of thing.
But what I would love to do iswhen you are back after your
walk, we can do another episode.
and we can explore, um, a littlebit about what, what happened
and what you learned along theway.
I'd love that.
So just to finish off, can youtell people a little bit About
(52:26):
what you do.
Matthew (52:27):
Yeah, so, so we have school of living myth.
Um, essentially that's a placewhere I mentor emerging leaders
and I say emerging, but that'snot really an age based thing.
It's just a readiness basedthing.
So I, I, I mentor people throughthe journey of stepping forward
into themselves in a deeper way.
(52:47):
Yeah, it's just a reallybeautiful community of emerging
leaders and we, it's calledschool of living myth.
So it's like leadership throughthe lens of living myth and
living myth is just the, it'sthe myth in the moment, you
know, the myth attuning to kindof like the myth of who we are
and learning, practicing to livethat in the world.
So yeah, if, if someone's anemerging leader, they can come
(53:10):
and spend some time with me.
I also do workshops andimmersions.
Around the UK at the moment, um,yeah, there's people can find me
on at the websiteschooloflivingmyth.
com.
That's the best way to find meor just to follow my YouTube,
which is Matthew Liam Gardner.
Um, and yeah, you know, watch,watch a couple of videos, get a
(53:32):
bit more of a feel for who I am.
And if they ever find their wayinto circle with me or into an
immersion, they're reallypowerful experiences that they
kind of, they, they're acombination of.
almost the modern day, modernday facilitator workshop with
almost a bit of ancient magicand subtle ritual, very subtle
(53:52):
ritual.
It kind of combines all of that.
So, yeah.
And Manchester is the placewhere I do most of my workshops.
So I'm, I'm up there about fiveor six times a year.
James (54:03):
Cool.
That sounds good.
Thank you very much, Matthew.
And I look forward to doing thenext episode where we actually
find out what happened.
Matthew (54:11):
Thanks, James.
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