November 11, 2025 • 31 mins
A mom says “I don’t feel well,” and the room keeps moving. Hours later, she’s in emergency surgery after losing more than two and a half liters of blood. That gap—between what Black women say and what systems hear—is where severe maternal morbidity takes root, and it’s where our conversation with Jasmine Winters refuses to look away.
We open with clarity on morbidity versus mortality and why the distinction matters for Black maternal health. Jasmine walks us through her IVF pregnancy, a placenta previa diagnosis that was later minimized, and the moment her instincts were dismissed as “normal.” She shares the physical spiral, the emotional whiplash of being sedated against her wishes, and the shock of being told to “go be a great mom” hours after a near-death event. We talk openly about postpartum depression, the silence that follows survival, and how founding Peaceful Minds Haven helped her translate trauma into advocacy focused on maternal wellness and mental health.
This story is also about partners and protection beyond the front door. We spotlight fathers in the delivery room and at home, exploring how to advocate when something feels wrong, how to recognize postpartum changes, and how small acts—like presence, snacks, and steady words—can make a life-saving difference. Jasmine introduces the Healing Playbook, a practical way to bring spouses into maternal health conversations with real skills and shared language. Along the way we lean into storytelling as a form of community care, encourage documentation and debriefs, and push for respectful, responsive care that listens the first time.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jaye Wilson (00:14):
Thank you so much for tuning in to Melinated Mommy
Talks.
I am your host, Jaye Wilson.
I am the founding president andCEO of Melinated Moms.
We're a community-centeredwomen empowerment organization
that's doing the work to creatematernal health equity through
community engagement events,education, and all these great
opportunities to bring moms andcommunity together.
(00:34):
I am so excited to have youhere with us for our episode
where we are talking to moms whoare in the margins.
And what does that actuallymean?
I have been a nurse for now 20years.
I can't even believe it.
Jesus, how did I get here 20years ago?
Um, but I've always worked inthe space of community where I
learned how marginalizationreally impacts the way that
(00:57):
people take care of themselvesand make their decisions around
their health care.
I am so excited to really diveinto these next few episodes
with you.
We have some amazing gueststhat are really going to share
their stories, and I cannot waitfor you to meet them.
Our first guest is JasmineWinters.
She is an all-around,all-encompassing mom who is
(01:19):
doing it all from top to bottom.
She is a reproductive healthadvocate.
She has been on this journeytoo and through her motherhood
as a military mom, going all theway into an IVF journey.
And she's going to talk to usmore about what does it look
like to be a mom on the marginin the space of morbidity.
We're often hearing thestatistics around black
(01:43):
mortality rates and them beingthree to four times higher than
our white counterparts.
So we understand that maternalmortality is a huge topic and a
huge epidemic that is happeningto black women here in the
United States when it comes togiving birth.
But we're not often hearing thestories of the moms who may be
(02:04):
in that space of havingtraumatic birthing experiences.
So I'm really excited to hearfrom Jasmine, and I cannot wait
for you to hear her story.
The conversation is so richthat we actually had to break it
into two parts.
This is part one of ourconversation with Jasmine
Winters.
(02:52):
Jasmine! I am so happy that you are here today, my dear. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Soplease let us know who you are.
Who is Jasmine Winters?
Jasmine N. Winters (02:56):
Yes.
Thank you, Jaye.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
I am a mommy of four.
I have three girls, one boy.
I am an IVF Journey mom.
Um, in addition to that, I aman entrepreneur.
I have created a nonprofitwhich focuses on maternal
(03:18):
wellness coupled with the mentalpart of the wellness.
Jaye Wilson (03:22):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (03:23):
From an experience of my own with my IVF
baby in 2023, where Iexperienced morbidity during
labor and delivery.
Jaye Wilson (03:32):
So we often hear mortality and morbidity used
interchangeably, but we bothknow they are not the same.
So can you just give us alittle bit of insight on what
does it actually mean to talkabout morbidity, not mortality?
Jasmine N. Winters (03:49):
Yeah, they're absolutely not the same.
Morbidity is when youexperience near death during
labor and delivery.
Mortality is when you actuallylose a loved one during the
birthing process.
Jaye Wilson (04:03):
That's, that's really significant.
I know there is also infantmortality, right?
And that is the loss of ourbabies.
I am a stillbirth mom and Iunderstand what that experience
is like.
And while it is definitelynothing I wish on anyone, I
understand how heavy morbidityalso can be.
(04:25):
Can you talk to us a little bitabout what was your experience
with your birthing journey foryour son and how did it lead to
a morbidity?
Jasmine N. Winters (04:35):
Ooh, so my, my journey with my son, um, as I
stated, he was an IVF.
Jaye Wilson (04:42):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (04:42):
Um, we were very excited for this journey.
Jaye Wilson (04:45):
Nice.
Jasmine N. Winters (04:45):
However, at 20 weeks, I was diagnosed with
what's called placenta previa.
And for those with us who maynot be familiar with that, with
what that term is, uh, placentaprevia is when your placenta is
covering your vaginal canal,which is where you would deliver
vaginally.
In that case, if the placentadoes not shift on its own as
(05:08):
your uterus grows, you wouldthen be a candidate for a
C-section.
In my case, I was cleared ofhaving the placenta previa and
was told that I could delivervaginally and I should not have.
So during my labor anddelivery, I experienced
morbidity, which again is whenyou are near death.
I lost over two and a halfliters of blood and needed an
(05:31):
emergency surgery.
This could have been preventedhad my doctors and my nurses who
were in the room with me forlabor and delivery listened to
the need and what I wasexpressing.
I was saying for over an hour,I don't feel well.
I just want to go to sleep.
I don't want to do skin to skincontact.
(05:52):
They tried to then force skinto skin on my partner.
And he said, No, I don't wantto do skin to skin.
I want you to check on Jas.
Jaye Wilson (05:59):
Right, yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (06:00):
You know, if something's not right, why is
she shaking this way?
Jaye Wilson (06:03):
Right.
Jasmine N. Winters (06:03):
And ultimately, you know, for moms
who experienced uh giving birth,shaking after giving birth is,
yes, very normal.
But this was a different typeof shaking.
Jaye Wilson (06:13):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (06:14):
And so finally, when they did uh come
in and check to see where myuterus and everything was
sitting, that, that's when theyfound that I had been internally
bleeding for over an hour.
Jaye Wilson (06:25):
Wow.
Jasmine N. Winters (06:25):
Which is where I landed with morbidity.
Jaye Wilson (06:31):
And to experience that in the moment, what were
some of those thoughts that ranthrough your head?
Jasmine N. Winters (06:38):
Like, ooh, girl, I'm still healing.
Um I was afraid, I was scared.
My mother-in-law was in theroom with me.
Um, after they had separatedthe family, my partner went off
to another room with ournewborn, who was only six hours
old at this point, maybe evenfour or five hours old at this
(07:00):
point.
Um, moved them to a differentroom.
My sister was down in thelobby.
They would not allow her tocome back up.
My mother-in-law actually, Godbless her, because she bullied
her way in there and she said,No, I am not leaving her side.
I need to see what's going on.
She was trying to take picturesand record, and they were more
(07:21):
concerned with her pulling thatphone out than they were
focusing on the fact that we're,we're losing this patient.
Exactly.
And I just remember looking atmy mother-in-law after waking up
from an unconscious moment andsaying, please don't let them
put me to sleep.
I am scared.
And I just, I cried and theykept giving me medications to
(07:44):
try to put me to sleep, eventhough I requested not to go to
sleep.
Whatever you got to do withthis surgery and whatever
epidural is still lingering forpain management, let that be it.
But don't give me anythingextra.
Yeah.
Um, that was disregarded.
They continued to give memedications through the IV to
calm my nerves, to settle me sothat they could get through the
(08:08):
blood transfusion and theemergency surgery that was
needed.
Jaye Wilson (08:11):
Wow.
Now, you're a mom of four.
So when you reflect back onyour pregnancies with your
previous three children and yourson, had you ever had any of
these experiences with the otherpregnancies?
Jasmine N. Winters (08:25):
No.
Nope.
They were wonderfulpregnancies.
They were all to term 39 and 40weeks.
Jaye Wilson (08:33):
Okay.
Jasmine N. Winters (08:34):
Uh, very easy deliveries.
Uh, didn't have any issues withpushing them out vaginally.
Um, however, with my son, myfourth delivery, I had some
complications with pushing,which I contribute that to the
placenta previa diagnosis.
Um, and I had somecomplications with uh the
pushing parts of uh delivery.
(08:55):
And it was so frustrating formyself, but my doctor, the
delivery doctor, also expresseduh their frustration by taking
their gloves off and saying,until you're ready to push
properly, I'm leaving the room.
Jaye Wilson (09:13):
That's crazy.
Jasmine N. Winters (09:14):
Left the room, told me they were gonna go
to another patient, and when Iwas ready to push, someone will
come get them.
Jaye Wilson (09:24):
So, so many things are going through my head when
you say that.
It's, first of all, it'ssickening because for them to
say this to you as if you'rejust a it's insignificant
metric, right?
You are just another number ontheir count of how many people
they're gonna deliver today,it's disgusting.
(09:46):
You know, and I often thinkabout when I hear these stories
um and even reflect on things inmy own health, right?
I think about these cliniciansand the way that they treat
their own loved ones.
If you were on the oppositeside of this table and they were
sp speaking to you in thismanner, would you have the same
(10:10):
emotion, the same thoughtprocess, the same behaviors?
And I know like I've, I've hadthis happen to me several times.
I'm a nurse by by trade.
And if I go into the hospitalfor my own illness or my
children, and I'm asking forhelp and support, and they're
giving me these, you know, veryroundabout answers or trying to
(10:31):
talk over my head, it's almostlike I have to pull out a
playing car, like, you know, I'ma nurse.
Jasmine N. Winters (10:37):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (10:37):
And then like, oh, oh, so we could actually talk to
you like this.
Or I'll get the challenge of,well, what kind of nurse are
you?
As if that's gonna be a way toinsignificant or you know, make
my my, my nursing degreeinsignificant in that moment.
So as a patient and as apatient advocate, because that's
what you have been also inreproductive health, you have
(10:58):
this knowledge, you have thisback end space, and also you're
a mom already.
You've, you've pushed out threebabies successfully, have
beautiful pregnancies previous.
So to go into it with knowledgeand lived experience, there's
nothing that gave you any pauseto say I wouldn't have the same
experience.
(11:19):
So when you went through thisexperience, how did that shape
the way that maybe you counseledother people who are coming to
you for support and service?
Jasmine N. Winters (11:32):
It took me a while to get back to being of
service.
My experience silenced me uhmaybe a good year and a half
after giving birth.
It silenced me because I couldnot advocate properly for
myself.
Jaye Wilson (11:50):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (11:50):
And it made me, it made me think, you know,
this is what you do for aliving.
Jaye Wilson (11:55):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (11:55):
You advocate for people, you help uh women
understand reproductive justice,rights, equity, bodily
autonomy.
This is who you are.
Jaye Wilson (12:07):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (12:08):
Why can't you speak up for yourself?
Jaye Wilson (12:10):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (12:10):
Experiencing morbidity and that near-death
experience, for me, it has, ithas left a hole in my spirit
somewhere.
And because of that, I couldnot speak up for myself.
And it wasn't until I createdmy nonprofit, Peaceful Minds
Haven, that I was able to startspeaking up for myself and for
(12:32):
others in the community again.
It was with creating that iswhere I re-found my voice.
Jaye Wilson (12:37):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (12:38):
You know, because there's times I'll sit,
I'll just be standing therewashing dishes and I'm like, I
just want to go to the hospitaland say, you hurt me.
Jaye Wilson (12:45):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (12:45):
I just want you to see my face and know you
hurt me.
And the biggest takeaway frommy experience is if this can
happen to someone who has thecredentials, who is an advocate
in this space, who has theknowledge and the terminology
and understands what happensfrom beginning to end when
dealing with a pregnancy all theway up to labor and delivery,
(13:09):
and through the fourthtrimester, this can happen to
anyone.
Jaye Wilson (13:13):
Absolutely.
Jasmine N. Winters (13:14):
And what happens to those who are not as
resourceful?
How do they use their voice andtheir platform to say, you hurt
me?
Jaye Wilson (13:22):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
And that's really importantthat you say that.
You know, the first thing Ithought of when you said
platform is actually payingattention to social media videos
and pictures of moms or womenor birthing people who were
having very significantdismissal happening during their
(13:45):
birthing and labor process.
And they would, you know, putit on social media.
This hospital is treating melike garbage.
Or I can't wait to get out ofhere and just see my baby
because this is so inhumane.
And it's, it, it, it shocks mysoul to think we can put these
things out here on social media,we can talk to whoever we, we
(14:09):
speak to, but until anunfortunate mortality or
morbidity actually happens,people don't understand the
significance of thosestatements.
So I want to ask you, how canwe actually use those types of
platforms, social media andotherwise, to gain more
(14:29):
understanding of the severity ofthis so that we can help people
put their advocacy into actionwhen they see morbidity starting
to creep up on them?
Jasmine N. Winters (14:40):
Yeah, I, that's a great question, Jaye.
Raising the awareness and usingyour platform to uplift
organizations like MelinatedMoms, like Peaceful Minds Haven,
sharing your story.
There's so much power andhealing in story sharing.
Jaye Wilson (14:58):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (14:58):
That is a form of advocacy.
You're advocating for yourselfwhen you tell your story and
you're helping the next personfind the strength and the
courage to use their voice aswell.
Because listen, I'm, I am notthe only birthing mom, IVF
journey mom, who has experiencedmorbidity.
Jaye Wilson (15:16):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (15:17):
There are so many other birthing moms who
may share the same experiencethat I have, but they don't know
how to tell it.
And so by me exercising myright to advocate for myself by
telling my story will help othermoms say, wow, I'm not the only
one that went through that.
Jaye Wilson (15:34):
Right.
It takes away that isolation.
Jasmine N. Winters (15:36):
It does.
Jaye Wilson (15:37):
When you're going through mor bid, morbidity, the
first thing you want to do isjust say, I'm, I'm just glad I
survived.
But we can't just live in thatsurvival space and think that
that is enough.
Jasmine N. Winters (15:50):
But here's the thing, Jaye.
You are absolutely right.
It's not enough.
The issue, at least in myexperience, was because I wasn't
speaking up, it caused such adeep postpartum depression that
I didn't even recognize.
I experienced morbidity, right?
(16:13):
And then I'm told hours later,after an emergency surgery and
after blood transfusion, now youhave to go be a great mom.
Jaye Wilson (16:23):
Right.
Jasmine N. Winters (16:23):
You have to care for this human that needs
you, needs you for food, forlove, for understanding.
And you're trying to heal andwrap your brain around the fact
that I just almost was not here.
You know, that's why I say I'mstill healing.
I don't think that I havewrapped my brain around the idea
(16:46):
that I almost was not here.
Jaye Wilson (16:49):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (16:49):
You know?
Jaye Wilson (16:50):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (16:50):
It's heavy.
Jaye Wilson (16:51):
It is.
Jasmine N. Winters (16:52):
It is absolutely heavier if I
experienced mortality, butliving with that hole in your
spirit is not talked aboutoften.
And it is not something thattherapy is going to clear up,
let's call it nine months.
It takes a takes you ninemonths to create this life.
(17:13):
Experiencing morbidity is notgoing to clear up in nine
months.
I, I have to be intentionalwith doing the work and showing
up for myself to heal and stillbe a mom.
Jaye Wilson (17:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think what you said, it itmakes so much sense.
But I want to actually go backto Peaceful Minds Haven.
One of the things I admire somuch about the work that you do
is you are looking at mentalhealth from a wellness space,
not just illness, right?
So we can recognize thesignificance of I may not feel
(17:47):
well, but it does not mean thatI am ill.
Jasmine N. Winters (17:50):
Correct.
Jaye Wilson (17:50):
Right?
Jasmine N. Winters (17:51):
That's correct.
Jaye Wilson (17:51):
Um, and then you also create space for fathers
and partners to be a part ofthat, which I think also bridges
that gap where the onus offacing all of these things is
not again just sitting on you.
It's actually a shared spacewith your partner so that they
understand the significance ofhow it impacts the parenthood
(18:13):
that both of you bring.
Because there are some dayswhere I ain't got it.
I ain't got it.
I ain't gonna lie to you.
These kids, I'll be like, look,it ain't today.
Mommy ain't got it.
Right.
But if you have a partner whounderstands and can create that
compassionate space of saying, Ishared this experience with
you, I watched as I thought Imight not have you here to
(18:37):
parent, that does something tothem as well.
So this physical experiencethat you had and the way that it
connects you to your son, thatis definitely, we're not
overshadowing that.
But to be on the outsidewatching the woman that you love
and the baby that you madetogether also sit in these
(18:59):
margins and not know how can Iadvocate?
How can I actually be a part ofthis?
That does create mentalinstability.
How can I jump into action?
What can I actually do?
So, you know, I attended yourevent a couple months ago where
we, we, we sat and we talkedwith fathers and we heard their
(19:22):
aspect of sharing this spacewhile watching these births and
watching the way that postpartumdepression impacts the way that
you parent, you love, you takecare of yourself, you pour into
your family and even yourrelationships.
Why is it so important to youfor us to have those collective
conversations with our partnersso that they can be a part of
(19:45):
the solution?
Jasmine N. Winters (19:47):
Absolutely.
So with my nonprofit uhPeaceful Minds Haven, we also
have like a subdivision ofPlease, Peaceful Minds Haven.
Um, and that's called theHealing Playbook.
Jaye Wilson (20:00):
Okay.
Jasmine N. Winters (20:01):
It is comprised of uh PMHs, Peaceful
Minds Haven, our board members,there's five of us, and the
healing playbook is comprised ofour spouses.
Jaye Wilson (20:14):
Okay.
Jasmine N. Winters (20:14):
And they've shown up in this uh work to
support us um so that we canreach communities and families.
So often we are being educatedand given resources for birthing
moms and the statistics onmorbidity and mortality rates,
(20:34):
which are rising.
Jaye Wilson (20:36):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (20:36):
However, we are not uh equally providing
those numbers, education, andresources to our fathers, to our
partners who are also a part ofthis journey with us.
And so for me, for example,during my uh morbidity
experience, my partner and I,after going home, experiencing
(21:01):
what we experienced, I am adifferent person now.
I'm trying to figure out who Iam.
I'm trying to heal from thismoment, I'm trying to parent,
I'm still trying to pour intothe children who were already
previously here, run a home,still go back to work 12 weeks
postpartum and just findnormalcy again.
Jaye Wilson (21:20):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (21:22):
Sometimes, a lot of times, often,
Jaye Wilson (21:25):
Yes.
Jasmine N. Winters (21:27):
that can break up a home because while I
am also trying to figure thingsout, heal, understand, and find
myself again, your partner istoo.
Jaye Wilson (21:38):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (21:38):
And your partner sometimes, often, does
not know how to show up for you.
They don't know how torecognize the signs that you are
experiencing postpartum.
And then if they do recognizethose signs, they may not know
how to show up.
It could be a simple foot rub.
It could be bringing me myfavorite snack home.
Jaye Wilson (22:00):
We like snacks.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:01):
We do.
I like Reese's, you know?
Jaye Wilson (22:04):
Yes.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:06):
But they may not know how to show up in
those spaces because they'realso dealing with their own form
of depression.
Jaye Wilson (22:12):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:12):
Maybe they thought fatherhood was gonna
look different for them.
Jaye Wilson (22:15):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:16):
But when you experience trauma, that happy
family look changes.
Jaye Wilson (22:24):
It does.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:24):
Because now you're both, I experienced the
morbidity, he experiencedwatching it.
Jaye Wilson (22:30):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:31):
And that's not considered in this space.
Jaye Wilson (22:35):
I agree.
This might sound a little shady.
Um just gonna preface withthat.
Um I remember in my umpregnancy with my last daughter,
my ex-husband and I were not ongood terms.
And I remember like expressingto my doctor, you know, the fear
(22:56):
of I may leave my babieswithout a mom.
And my doctor telling me, letme talk to your husband.
Let me tell him like thesignificance of what's going on
with you, because it is a realfear, but is uh it's an actual
thing that I'm really trying toprevent.
I was incredibly sick during mypregnancies.
And I remember the doctortalking to him.
(23:19):
I, and I stepped out of theroom because I'm like, I want
this man to talk to this otherman, right?
But I remember him having thisconversation with him and my
ex-husband being so offended.
And now, you know, hindsight isbetter than foresight.
I think, not giving him anyexcuses, he's still who he is,
but I think that there were somany things that that man poured
(23:40):
into him that he was not readyfor.
He was not able to reallyabsorb that this man is not
coming to him as an adversary.
He's coming to him as anadvocate.
Jasmine N. Winters (23:51):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (23:52):
For me.
Jasmine N. Winters (23:52):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (23:53):
And asking him, look, whatever you do outside,
you do that outside.
But your wife needs you in thismoment.
And the more that you aredisconnecting, the more you're
actually adding to the thingsthat we're trying to prevent.
We don't want her to have amortality.
She definitely gonna have amorbidity because she walked in
with one, right?
But having that kind ofconversation man to man, I think
(24:17):
that also puts things intoperspectives, and into a good
perspective.
And I think that there are moremen that are coming forward who
are starting to have these verytrusted sacred conversations
with other men and creatingspaces for them.
Fortunately, they're coming andthey're, they're learning,
(24:39):
right?
So they're learning from us,they're learning from the women
who have experienced thesethings.
Unfortunately, a lot of thesemen who are doing it, not all,
but a lot of them are comingfrom the space of mortality.
Jasmine N. Winters (24:50):
Yes.
Jaye Wilson (24:51):
So I see them pushing through the grieving
process of I lost this woman,and now I have to parent through
my grief and my what-ifs andhow I should have.
And if I would have known thatI can advocate for this, it
would have looked like this.
(25:11):
Whereas now they're takingtheir experiences and they're
talking to these young men whoare going into fatherhood
sometimes for the first time.
And I think that is sobeautiful.
Jasmine N. Winters (25:22):
Yes.
Jaye Wilson (25:22):
We've been talking a little bit about like how this
also is a healing journey.
I think, from what I observewith these men, is and what I
think also what happened at yourevent is these men being able
to open up and show thatvulnerability as a strength is a
way to heal through the thingsthat they also traumatically
experience watching you gothrough these traumatic birthing
(25:46):
things, right?
And I really want us,especially in our black and
brown communities, I want us toreally know like we need that.
There's so many men that wantyou to depend on them as that
provider and the protector andall that stuff, and that's
great.
Drop your wallet over there, doall of the things.
(26:08):
But the protection that I needis more than just telling
somebody not to pick on yourwife, right?
It's showing up in this spacewhere you even feel vulnerable
and you say, I'm not gonna letyou treat her like this.
I'm going to be the personthat's gonna protect her body
and her soul and her mindbecause I know that if I show up
(26:30):
in that space like that forher, this is gonna help us all
in the long run.
Right?
Jasmine N. Winters (26:37):
You are hitting on some serious
points, Jaye.
No, for real, because mypartner and I, we um we had this
very conversation with amarried, another married couple
of hours about a month ago.
Um, because I like, like Isaid, we're still going through
our healing process within ourrelationship, and we are leaning
(26:58):
on our tribe for that help.
More specifically, those in themarried space who have
experienced similar birthingexperiences.
And how did you get through thepostpartum?
And how did you guys heal andgrow and maintain an emotional,
emotional intimacy with eachother?
How did you decline in theemotional intimacy area and get
(27:24):
it back?
Because most families don't.
Most black families don'tbecause we don't have the
resources.
We don't have other marriedcouples we can turn to.
And, you know, one of thethings that you really hit on
was the protection piece.
Jaye Wilson (27:37):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (27:37):
And men understanding truly what their
role is as a protector and aleader.
Jaye Wilson (27:42):
Yes.
Jasmine N. Winters (27:42):
It's not you protecting me from the burglar
who busts our door down andtries to come in and rob us.
That's one form of protection,sure.
But there's spiritual,emotional, mental, there's vocal
in advocacy where we need ourmen to show up.
And I feel like a lot of times,you know, at least the men in
(28:04):
my life, I have three brothers.
I was previously married.
My father is still very much soin my life and married to my
mother, right?
Um, I feel like sometimes theydon't actually know where they
fit in.
Jaye Wilson (28:17):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:17):
They don't know when to jump in.
They don't know when to takeinitiative.
Because you know, us women, wecan be like, well, you didn't
wipe that right.
Jaye Wilson (28:24):
Right.
And let me do it.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:25):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (28:25):
Let me just show you how to do it.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:26):
And then that'll discourage them from
wanting to wipe that tableagain.
Jaye Wilson (28:29):
Yep.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:29):
And then you're complaining that they
haven't wiped the table.
And it's like, but you didn'tgive them a space, safe space.
Um, and so it's just reallyimportant to communicate where
we are emotionally to maintainthat intimacy so that the lines
of communication are open.
And not only are we healingourselves, but the men have a
(28:51):
safe space to know, okay, it'sokay to mess up and relearn
Jaye Wilson (28:56):
Right.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:56):
what I thought I knew.
Jaye Wilson (28:58):
Yes.
Well, you know, I always say uhblack mom magic is a real
thing.
Because it is.
Moms will find a way out of noway.
You will walk in this room andsee nothing but black walls, and
then you'll be like, you knowwhat?
If I put this over here and Iput that over here, and I maybe
put a plant in that corner, thisis gonna look like a completely
(29:20):
different space.
And it will be.
And I think to your point, wehave to also create that space
of encouragement for men.
Jasmine N. Winters (29:27):
Yes.
Jaye Wilson (29:28):
Right?
We want them to know I need youhere.
Jasmine N. Winters (29:31):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (29:31):
This is not just my space.
Here's how we share ittogether.
Here's how we learn to grow andevolve into the parents that
our children need, but also intothe partners that we need to be
for each other.
I think that also helps us toum build a better example for
our kids to see what it lookslike to have those healthy
dynamics.
Jasmine N. Winters (29:51):
That part.
Jaye Wilson (30:06):
Those parental dynamics are so so very
important.
And I could have gone down therabbit hole talking all about
that with Jasmine, but we'regonna go ahead and pause the
conversation and end that partone of our chat with Jasmine
Winters right there.
I really enjoyed learning somuch about and uplifting
Jasmine's morbidity storybecause as she mentioned, it is
(30:27):
important to bring light tothese experiences so that others
can know that they are notalone.
I hope that some of you outthere found comfort in hearing
Jasmine talk about this andacknowledge that she is still
healing, and that's okay.
It is okay if you're stillhealing.
She really dropped some gemsfor us to think about and let's
sink in and marinate.
(30:49):
And there's so much more tocome in part two of our
conversation with Jasmine, somake sure you don't miss it.
Melinated Mommy Talks thePodcast is your place for
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So make sure to subscribe onall of the platforms where you
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(31:10):
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We can't wait to have you withus in our next episode.
(31:32):
So keep listening, stayconnected, and stay tapped in.
Thank you so much for tuning in to Melinated Mommy
Talks.
I am your host, Jaye Wilson.
I am the founding president andCEO of Melinated Moms.
We're a community-centeredwomen empowerment organization
that's doing the work to creatematernal health equity through
community engagement events,education, and all these great
opportunities to bring moms andcommunity together.
(00:34):
I am so excited to have youhere with us for our episode
where we are talking to moms whoare in the margins.
And what does that actuallymean?
I have been a nurse for now 20years.
I can't even believe it.
Jesus, how did I get here 20years ago?
Um, but I've always worked inthe space of community where I
learned how marginalizationreally impacts the way that
(00:57):
people take care of themselvesand make their decisions around
their health care.
I am so excited to really diveinto these next few episodes
with you.
We have some amazing gueststhat are really going to share
their stories, and I cannot waitfor you to meet them.
Our first guest is JasmineWinters.
She is an all-around,all-encompassing mom who is
(01:19):
doing it all from top to bottom.
She is a reproductive healthadvocate.
She has been on this journeytoo and through her motherhood
as a military mom, going all theway into an IVF journey.
And she's going to talk to usmore about what does it look
like to be a mom on the marginin the space of morbidity.
We're often hearing thestatistics around black
(01:43):
mortality rates and them beingthree to four times higher than
our white counterparts.
So we understand that maternalmortality is a huge topic and a
huge epidemic that is happeningto black women here in the
United States when it comes togiving birth.
But we're not often hearing thestories of the moms who may be
(02:04):
in that space of havingtraumatic birthing experiences.
So I'm really excited to hearfrom Jasmine, and I cannot wait
for you to hear her story.
The conversation is so richthat we actually had to break it
into two parts.
This is part one of ourconversation with Jasmine
Winters.
(02:52):
Jasmine! I am so happy that you are here today, my dear. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Soplease let us know who you are.
Who is Jasmine Winters?
Jasmine N. Winters (02:56):
Yes.
Thank you, Jaye.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
I am a mommy of four.
I have three girls, one boy.
I am an IVF Journey mom.
Um, in addition to that, I aman entrepreneur.
I have created a nonprofitwhich focuses on maternal
(03:18):
wellness coupled with the mentalpart of the wellness.
Jaye Wilson (03:22):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (03:23):
From an experience of my own with my IVF
baby in 2023, where Iexperienced morbidity during
labor and delivery.
Jaye Wilson (03:32):
So we often hear mortality and morbidity used
interchangeably, but we bothknow they are not the same.
So can you just give us alittle bit of insight on what
does it actually mean to talkabout morbidity, not mortality?
Jasmine N. Winters (03:49):
Yeah, they're absolutely not the same.
Morbidity is when youexperience near death during
labor and delivery.
Mortality is when you actuallylose a loved one during the
birthing process.
Jaye Wilson (04:03):
That's, that's really significant.
I know there is also infantmortality, right?
And that is the loss of ourbabies.
I am a stillbirth mom and Iunderstand what that experience
is like.
And while it is definitelynothing I wish on anyone, I
understand how heavy morbidityalso can be.
(04:25):
Can you talk to us a little bitabout what was your experience
with your birthing journey foryour son and how did it lead to
a morbidity?
Jasmine N. Winters (04:35):
Ooh, so my, my journey with my son, um, as I
stated, he was an IVF.
Jaye Wilson (04:42):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (04:42):
Um, we were very excited for this journey.
Jaye Wilson (04:45):
Nice.
Jasmine N. Winters (04:45):
However, at 20 weeks, I was diagnosed with
what's called placenta previa.
And for those with us who maynot be familiar with that, with
what that term is, uh, placentaprevia is when your placenta is
covering your vaginal canal,which is where you would deliver
vaginally.
In that case, if the placentadoes not shift on its own as
(05:08):
your uterus grows, you wouldthen be a candidate for a
C-section.
In my case, I was cleared ofhaving the placenta previa and
was told that I could delivervaginally and I should not have.
So during my labor anddelivery, I experienced
morbidity, which again is whenyou are near death.
I lost over two and a halfliters of blood and needed an
(05:31):
emergency surgery.
This could have been preventedhad my doctors and my nurses who
were in the room with me forlabor and delivery listened to
the need and what I wasexpressing.
I was saying for over an hour,I don't feel well.
I just want to go to sleep.
I don't want to do skin to skincontact.
(05:52):
They tried to then force skinto skin on my partner.
And he said, No, I don't wantto do skin to skin.
I want you to check on Jas.
Jaye Wilson (05:59):
Right, yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (06:00):
You know, if something's not right, why is
she shaking this way?
Jaye Wilson (06:03):
Right.
Jasmine N. Winters (06:03):
And ultimately, you know, for moms
who experienced uh giving birth,shaking after giving birth is,
yes, very normal.
But this was a different typeof shaking.
Jaye Wilson (06:13):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (06:14):
And so finally, when they did uh come
in and check to see where myuterus and everything was
sitting, that, that's when theyfound that I had been internally
bleeding for over an hour.
Jaye Wilson (06:25):
Wow.
Jasmine N. Winters (06:25):
Which is where I landed with morbidity.
Jaye Wilson (06:31):
And to experience that in the moment, what were
some of those thoughts that ranthrough your head?
Jasmine N. Winters (06:38):
Like, ooh, girl, I'm still healing.
Um I was afraid, I was scared.
My mother-in-law was in theroom with me.
Um, after they had separatedthe family, my partner went off
to another room with ournewborn, who was only six hours
old at this point, maybe evenfour or five hours old at this
(07:00):
point.
Um, moved them to a differentroom.
My sister was down in thelobby.
They would not allow her tocome back up.
My mother-in-law actually, Godbless her, because she bullied
her way in there and she said,No, I am not leaving her side.
I need to see what's going on.
She was trying to take picturesand record, and they were more
(07:21):
concerned with her pulling thatphone out than they were
focusing on the fact that we're,we're losing this patient.
Exactly.
And I just remember looking atmy mother-in-law after waking up
from an unconscious moment andsaying, please don't let them
put me to sleep.
I am scared.
And I just, I cried and theykept giving me medications to
(07:44):
try to put me to sleep, eventhough I requested not to go to
sleep.
Whatever you got to do withthis surgery and whatever
epidural is still lingering forpain management, let that be it.
But don't give me anythingextra.
Yeah.
Um, that was disregarded.
They continued to give memedications through the IV to
calm my nerves, to settle me sothat they could get through the
(08:08):
blood transfusion and theemergency surgery that was
needed.
Jaye Wilson (08:11):
Wow.
Now, you're a mom of four.
So when you reflect back onyour pregnancies with your
previous three children and yourson, had you ever had any of
these experiences with the otherpregnancies?
Jasmine N. Winters (08:25):
No.
Nope.
They were wonderfulpregnancies.
They were all to term 39 and 40weeks.
Jaye Wilson (08:33):
Okay.
Jasmine N. Winters (08:34):
Uh, very easy deliveries.
Uh, didn't have any issues withpushing them out vaginally.
Um, however, with my son, myfourth delivery, I had some
complications with pushing,which I contribute that to the
placenta previa diagnosis.
Um, and I had somecomplications with uh the
pushing parts of uh delivery.
(08:55):
And it was so frustrating formyself, but my doctor, the
delivery doctor, also expresseduh their frustration by taking
their gloves off and saying,until you're ready to push
properly, I'm leaving the room.
Jaye Wilson (09:13):
That's crazy.
Jasmine N. Winters (09:14):
Left the room, told me they were gonna go
to another patient, and when Iwas ready to push, someone will
come get them.
Jaye Wilson (09:24):
So, so many things are going through my head when
you say that.
It's, first of all, it'ssickening because for them to
say this to you as if you'rejust a it's insignificant
metric, right?
You are just another number ontheir count of how many people
they're gonna deliver today,it's disgusting.
(09:46):
You know, and I often thinkabout when I hear these stories
um and even reflect on things inmy own health, right?
I think about these cliniciansand the way that they treat
their own loved ones.
If you were on the oppositeside of this table and they were
sp speaking to you in thismanner, would you have the same
(10:10):
emotion, the same thoughtprocess, the same behaviors?
And I know like I've, I've hadthis happen to me several times.
I'm a nurse by by trade.
And if I go into the hospitalfor my own illness or my
children, and I'm asking forhelp and support, and they're
giving me these, you know, veryroundabout answers or trying to
(10:31):
talk over my head, it's almostlike I have to pull out a
playing car, like, you know, I'ma nurse.
Jasmine N. Winters (10:37):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (10:37):
And then like, oh, oh, so we could actually talk to
you like this.
Or I'll get the challenge of,well, what kind of nurse are
you?
As if that's gonna be a way toinsignificant or you know, make
my my, my nursing degreeinsignificant in that moment.
So as a patient and as apatient advocate, because that's
what you have been also inreproductive health, you have
(10:58):
this knowledge, you have thisback end space, and also you're
a mom already.
You've, you've pushed out threebabies successfully, have
beautiful pregnancies previous.
So to go into it with knowledgeand lived experience, there's
nothing that gave you any pauseto say I wouldn't have the same
experience.
(11:19):
So when you went through thisexperience, how did that shape
the way that maybe you counseledother people who are coming to
you for support and service?
Jasmine N. Winters (11:32):
It took me a while to get back to being of
service.
My experience silenced me uhmaybe a good year and a half
after giving birth.
It silenced me because I couldnot advocate properly for
myself.
Jaye Wilson (11:50):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (11:50):
And it made me, it made me think, you know,
this is what you do for aliving.
Jaye Wilson (11:55):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (11:55):
You advocate for people, you help uh women
understand reproductive justice,rights, equity, bodily
autonomy.
This is who you are.
Jaye Wilson (12:07):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (12:08):
Why can't you speak up for yourself?
Jaye Wilson (12:10):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (12:10):
Experiencing morbidity and that near-death
experience, for me, it has, ithas left a hole in my spirit
somewhere.
And because of that, I couldnot speak up for myself.
And it wasn't until I createdmy nonprofit, Peaceful Minds
Haven, that I was able to startspeaking up for myself and for
(12:32):
others in the community again.
It was with creating that iswhere I re-found my voice.
Jaye Wilson (12:37):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (12:38):
You know, because there's times I'll sit,
I'll just be standing therewashing dishes and I'm like, I
just want to go to the hospitaland say, you hurt me.
Jaye Wilson (12:45):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (12:45):
I just want you to see my face and know you
hurt me.
And the biggest takeaway frommy experience is if this can
happen to someone who has thecredentials, who is an advocate
in this space, who has theknowledge and the terminology
and understands what happensfrom beginning to end when
dealing with a pregnancy all theway up to labor and delivery,
(13:09):
and through the fourthtrimester, this can happen to
anyone.
Jaye Wilson (13:13):
Absolutely.
Jasmine N. Winters (13:14):
And what happens to those who are not as
resourceful?
How do they use their voice andtheir platform to say, you hurt
me?
Jaye Wilson (13:22):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
And that's really importantthat you say that.
You know, the first thing Ithought of when you said
platform is actually payingattention to social media videos
and pictures of moms or womenor birthing people who were
having very significantdismissal happening during their
(13:45):
birthing and labor process.
And they would, you know, putit on social media.
This hospital is treating melike garbage.
Or I can't wait to get out ofhere and just see my baby
because this is so inhumane.
And it's, it, it, it shocks mysoul to think we can put these
things out here on social media,we can talk to whoever we, we
(14:09):
speak to, but until anunfortunate mortality or
morbidity actually happens,people don't understand the
significance of thosestatements.
So I want to ask you, how canwe actually use those types of
platforms, social media andotherwise, to gain more
(14:29):
understanding of the severity ofthis so that we can help people
put their advocacy into actionwhen they see morbidity starting
to creep up on them?
Jasmine N. Winters (14:40):
Yeah, I, that's a great question, Jaye.
Raising the awareness and usingyour platform to uplift
organizations like MelinatedMoms, like Peaceful Minds Haven,
sharing your story.
There's so much power andhealing in story sharing.
Jaye Wilson (14:58):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (14:58):
That is a form of advocacy.
You're advocating for yourselfwhen you tell your story and
you're helping the next personfind the strength and the
courage to use their voice aswell.
Because listen, I'm, I am notthe only birthing mom, IVF
journey mom, who has experiencedmorbidity.
Jaye Wilson (15:16):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (15:17):
There are so many other birthing moms who
may share the same experiencethat I have, but they don't know
how to tell it.
And so by me exercising myright to advocate for myself by
telling my story will help othermoms say, wow, I'm not the only
one that went through that.
Jaye Wilson (15:34):
Right.
It takes away that isolation.
Jasmine N. Winters (15:36):
It does.
Jaye Wilson (15:37):
When you're going through mor bid, morbidity, the
first thing you want to do isjust say, I'm, I'm just glad I
survived.
But we can't just live in thatsurvival space and think that
that is enough.
Jasmine N. Winters (15:50):
But here's the thing, Jaye.
You are absolutely right.
It's not enough.
The issue, at least in myexperience, was because I wasn't
speaking up, it caused such adeep postpartum depression that
I didn't even recognize.
I experienced morbidity, right?
(16:13):
And then I'm told hours later,after an emergency surgery and
after blood transfusion, now youhave to go be a great mom.
Jaye Wilson (16:23):
Right.
Jasmine N. Winters (16:23):
You have to care for this human that needs
you, needs you for food, forlove, for understanding.
And you're trying to heal andwrap your brain around the fact
that I just almost was not here.
You know, that's why I say I'mstill healing.
I don't think that I havewrapped my brain around the idea
(16:46):
that I almost was not here.
Jaye Wilson (16:49):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (16:49):
You know?
Jaye Wilson (16:50):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (16:50):
It's heavy.
Jaye Wilson (16:51):
It is.
Jasmine N. Winters (16:52):
It is absolutely heavier if I
experienced mortality, butliving with that hole in your
spirit is not talked aboutoften.
And it is not something thattherapy is going to clear up,
let's call it nine months.
It takes a takes you ninemonths to create this life.
(17:13):
Experiencing morbidity is notgoing to clear up in nine
months.
I, I have to be intentionalwith doing the work and showing
up for myself to heal and stillbe a mom.
Jaye Wilson (17:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think what you said, it itmakes so much sense.
But I want to actually go backto Peaceful Minds Haven.
One of the things I admire somuch about the work that you do
is you are looking at mentalhealth from a wellness space,
not just illness, right?
So we can recognize thesignificance of I may not feel
(17:47):
well, but it does not mean thatI am ill.
Jasmine N. Winters (17:50):
Correct.
Jaye Wilson (17:50):
Right?
Jasmine N. Winters (17:51):
That's correct.
Jaye Wilson (17:51):
Um, and then you also create space for fathers
and partners to be a part ofthat, which I think also bridges
that gap where the onus offacing all of these things is
not again just sitting on you.
It's actually a shared spacewith your partner so that they
understand the significance ofhow it impacts the parenthood
(18:13):
that both of you bring.
Because there are some dayswhere I ain't got it.
I ain't got it.
I ain't gonna lie to you.
These kids, I'll be like, look,it ain't today.
Mommy ain't got it.
Right.
But if you have a partner whounderstands and can create that
compassionate space of saying, Ishared this experience with
you, I watched as I thought Imight not have you here to
(18:37):
parent, that does something tothem as well.
So this physical experiencethat you had and the way that it
connects you to your son, thatis definitely, we're not
overshadowing that.
But to be on the outsidewatching the woman that you love
and the baby that you madetogether also sit in these
(18:59):
margins and not know how can Iadvocate?
How can I actually be a part ofthis?
That does create mentalinstability.
How can I jump into action?
What can I actually do?
So, you know, I attended yourevent a couple months ago where
we, we, we sat and we talkedwith fathers and we heard their
(19:22):
aspect of sharing this spacewhile watching these births and
watching the way that postpartumdepression impacts the way that
you parent, you love, you takecare of yourself, you pour into
your family and even yourrelationships.
Why is it so important to youfor us to have those collective
conversations with our partnersso that they can be a part of
(19:45):
the solution?
Jasmine N. Winters (19:47):
Absolutely.
So with my nonprofit uhPeaceful Minds Haven, we also
have like a subdivision ofPlease, Peaceful Minds Haven.
Um, and that's called theHealing Playbook.
Jaye Wilson (20:00):
Okay.
Jasmine N. Winters (20:01):
It is comprised of uh PMHs, Peaceful
Minds Haven, our board members,there's five of us, and the
healing playbook is comprised ofour spouses.
Jaye Wilson (20:14):
Okay.
Jasmine N. Winters (20:14):
And they've shown up in this uh work to
support us um so that we canreach communities and families.
So often we are being educatedand given resources for birthing
moms and the statistics onmorbidity and mortality rates,
(20:34):
which are rising.
Jaye Wilson (20:36):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (20:36):
However, we are not uh equally providing
those numbers, education, andresources to our fathers, to our
partners who are also a part ofthis journey with us.
And so for me, for example,during my uh morbidity
experience, my partner and I,after going home, experiencing
(21:01):
what we experienced, I am adifferent person now.
I'm trying to figure out who Iam.
I'm trying to heal from thismoment, I'm trying to parent,
I'm still trying to pour intothe children who were already
previously here, run a home,still go back to work 12 weeks
postpartum and just findnormalcy again.
Jaye Wilson (21:20):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (21:22):
Sometimes, a lot of times, often,
Jaye Wilson (21:25):
Yes.
Jasmine N. Winters (21:27):
that can break up a home because while I
am also trying to figure thingsout, heal, understand, and find
myself again, your partner istoo.
Jaye Wilson (21:38):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (21:38):
And your partner sometimes, often, does
not know how to show up for you.
They don't know how torecognize the signs that you are
experiencing postpartum.
And then if they do recognizethose signs, they may not know
how to show up.
It could be a simple foot rub.
It could be bringing me myfavorite snack home.
Jaye Wilson (22:00):
We like snacks.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:01):
We do.
I like Reese's, you know?
Jaye Wilson (22:04):
Yes.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:06):
But they may not know how to show up in
those spaces because they'realso dealing with their own form
of depression.
Jaye Wilson (22:12):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:12):
Maybe they thought fatherhood was gonna
look different for them.
Jaye Wilson (22:15):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:16):
But when you experience trauma, that happy
family look changes.
Jaye Wilson (22:24):
It does.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:24):
Because now you're both, I experienced the
morbidity, he experiencedwatching it.
Jaye Wilson (22:30):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (22:31):
And that's not considered in this space.
Jaye Wilson (22:35):
I agree.
This might sound a little shady.
Um just gonna preface withthat.
Um I remember in my umpregnancy with my last daughter,
my ex-husband and I were not ongood terms.
And I remember like expressingto my doctor, you know, the fear
(22:56):
of I may leave my babieswithout a mom.
And my doctor telling me, letme talk to your husband.
Let me tell him like thesignificance of what's going on
with you, because it is a realfear, but is uh it's an actual
thing that I'm really trying toprevent.
I was incredibly sick during mypregnancies.
And I remember the doctortalking to him.
(23:19):
I, and I stepped out of theroom because I'm like, I want
this man to talk to this otherman, right?
But I remember him having thisconversation with him and my
ex-husband being so offended.
And now, you know, hindsight isbetter than foresight.
I think, not giving him anyexcuses, he's still who he is,
but I think that there were somany things that that man poured
(23:40):
into him that he was not readyfor.
He was not able to reallyabsorb that this man is not
coming to him as an adversary.
He's coming to him as anadvocate.
Jasmine N. Winters (23:51):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (23:52):
For me.
Jasmine N. Winters (23:52):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (23:53):
And asking him, look, whatever you do outside,
you do that outside.
But your wife needs you in thismoment.
And the more that you aredisconnecting, the more you're
actually adding to the thingsthat we're trying to prevent.
We don't want her to have amortality.
She definitely gonna have amorbidity because she walked in
with one, right?
But having that kind ofconversation man to man, I think
(24:17):
that also puts things intoperspectives, and into a good
perspective.
And I think that there are moremen that are coming forward who
are starting to have these verytrusted sacred conversations
with other men and creatingspaces for them.
Fortunately, they're coming andthey're, they're learning,
(24:39):
right?
So they're learning from us,they're learning from the women
who have experienced thesethings.
Unfortunately, a lot of thesemen who are doing it, not all,
but a lot of them are comingfrom the space of mortality.
Jasmine N. Winters (24:50):
Yes.
Jaye Wilson (24:51):
So I see them pushing through the grieving
process of I lost this woman,and now I have to parent through
my grief and my what-ifs andhow I should have.
And if I would have known thatI can advocate for this, it
would have looked like this.
(25:11):
Whereas now they're takingtheir experiences and they're
talking to these young men whoare going into fatherhood
sometimes for the first time.
And I think that is sobeautiful.
Jasmine N. Winters (25:22):
Yes.
Jaye Wilson (25:22):
We've been talking a little bit about like how this
also is a healing journey.
I think, from what I observewith these men, is and what I
think also what happened at yourevent is these men being able
to open up and show thatvulnerability as a strength is a
way to heal through the thingsthat they also traumatically
experience watching you gothrough these traumatic birthing
(25:46):
things, right?
And I really want us,especially in our black and
brown communities, I want us toreally know like we need that.
There's so many men that wantyou to depend on them as that
provider and the protector andall that stuff, and that's
great.
Drop your wallet over there, doall of the things.
(26:08):
But the protection that I needis more than just telling
somebody not to pick on yourwife, right?
It's showing up in this spacewhere you even feel vulnerable
and you say, I'm not gonna letyou treat her like this.
I'm going to be the personthat's gonna protect her body
and her soul and her mindbecause I know that if I show up
(26:30):
in that space like that forher, this is gonna help us all
in the long run.
Right?
Jasmine N. Winters (26:37):
You are hitting on some serious
points, Jaye.
No, for real, because mypartner and I, we um we had this
very conversation with amarried, another married couple
of hours about a month ago.
Um, because I like, like Isaid, we're still going through
our healing process within ourrelationship, and we are leaning
(26:58):
on our tribe for that help.
More specifically, those in themarried space who have
experienced similar birthingexperiences.
And how did you get through thepostpartum?
And how did you guys heal andgrow and maintain an emotional,
emotional intimacy with eachother?
How did you decline in theemotional intimacy area and get
(27:24):
it back?
Because most families don't.
Most black families don'tbecause we don't have the
resources.
We don't have other marriedcouples we can turn to.
And, you know, one of thethings that you really hit on
was the protection piece.
Jaye Wilson (27:37):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (27:37):
And men understanding truly what their
role is as a protector and aleader.
Jaye Wilson (27:42):
Yes.
Jasmine N. Winters (27:42):
It's not you protecting me from the burglar
who busts our door down andtries to come in and rob us.
That's one form of protection,sure.
But there's spiritual,emotional, mental, there's vocal
in advocacy where we need ourmen to show up.
And I feel like a lot of times,you know, at least the men in
(28:04):
my life, I have three brothers.
I was previously married.
My father is still very much soin my life and married to my
mother, right?
Um, I feel like sometimes theydon't actually know where they
fit in.
Jaye Wilson (28:17):
Yeah.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:17):
They don't know when to jump in.
They don't know when to takeinitiative.
Because you know, us women, wecan be like, well, you didn't
wipe that right.
Jaye Wilson (28:24):
Right.
And let me do it.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:25):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (28:25):
Let me just show you how to do it.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:26):
And then that'll discourage them from
wanting to wipe that tableagain.
Jaye Wilson (28:29):
Yep.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:29):
And then you're complaining that they
haven't wiped the table.
And it's like, but you didn'tgive them a space, safe space.
Um, and so it's just reallyimportant to communicate where
we are emotionally to maintainthat intimacy so that the lines
of communication are open.
And not only are we healingourselves, but the men have a
(28:51):
safe space to know, okay, it'sokay to mess up and relearn
Jaye Wilson (28:56):
Right.
Jasmine N. Winters (28:56):
what I thought I knew.
Jaye Wilson (28:58):
Yes.
Well, you know, I always say uhblack mom magic is a real
thing.
Because it is.
Moms will find a way out of noway.
You will walk in this room andsee nothing but black walls, and
then you'll be like, you knowwhat?
If I put this over here and Iput that over here, and I maybe
put a plant in that corner, thisis gonna look like a completely
(29:20):
different space.
And it will be.
And I think to your point, wehave to also create that space
of encouragement for men.
Jasmine N. Winters (29:27):
Yes.
Jaye Wilson (29:28):
Right?
We want them to know I need youhere.
Jasmine N. Winters (29:31):
Yeah.
Jaye Wilson (29:31):
This is not just my space.
Here's how we share ittogether.
Here's how we learn to grow andevolve into the parents that
our children need, but also intothe partners that we need to be
for each other.
I think that also helps us toum build a better example for
our kids to see what it lookslike to have those healthy
dynamics.
Jasmine N. Winters (29:51):
That part.
Jaye Wilson (30:06):
Those parental dynamics are so so very
important.
And I could have gone down therabbit hole talking all about
that with Jasmine, but we'regonna go ahead and pause the
conversation and end that partone of our chat with Jasmine
Winters right there.
I really enjoyed learning somuch about and uplifting
Jasmine's morbidity storybecause as she mentioned, it is
(30:27):
important to bring light tothese experiences so that others
can know that they are notalone.
I hope that some of you outthere found comfort in hearing
Jasmine talk about this andacknowledge that she is still
healing, and that's okay.
It is okay if you're stillhealing.
She really dropped some gemsfor us to think about and let's
sink in and marinate.
(30:49):
And there's so much more tocome in part two of our
conversation with Jasmine, somake sure you don't miss it.
Melinated Mommy Talks thePodcast is your place for
authentic and raw conversationsabout what it means to be a
melanated mom.
So make sure to subscribe onall of the platforms where you
listen to your favoritepodcasts.
Make sure to like and share.
(31:10):
And if you want to continue tosee our podcast grow, make sure
to become a paid subscriber forexclusive bonus content or
become a donating listeningsupporter.
If you're interested inbecoming an individual or
corporate sponsor of thispodcast, go to melinatedmoms.
com/ podcast for moreinformation.
We can't wait to have you withus in our next episode.
(31:32):
So keep listening, stayconnected, and stay tapped in.
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