#22 - Healing Money Wounds in Midlife: Reclaim Your Self-Worth, Joy & Financial Freedom with Nadine Zumot - Midlife Butterfly: Self-Discovery, Women Empowerment & Life Transitions

Episode Transcript
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Kena Siu (00:00):
Let's get honest for a second.
Have you ever felt shame aroundmoney, like, no matter how
smart or capable you are, youkeep hitting the same money
blocks.
Maybe you watched your parentsargue about it.
Maybe you were told it wasgreedy to want more.
Now in midlife, after divorce,a career shift or a reinvention,

(00:22):
you're still carrying theweight of those old stories.
But what if money woundsLeaving your body and healing
them could change everything?
Welcome to Midlife Butterfly.
Let's dive in.
Midlife Butterfly, a woman inthe sacred in between.
She's not who she once was andnot quite who she's becoming yet

(00:45):
.
She's unraveling, awakening,remembering.
She's navigating lifetransitions, divorce, loss,
reinvasion moves, with a burningdesire for freedom, joy and
solid fly.
She's no longer afraid of herown wings.

(01:08):
I am so thrilled and excited tohave this time the pleasure of
having Nadine Sumat, which is afriend and also was my coach, my
money money coach, so I am soexcited to have you here, nadine
.

Nadine Zumot (01:26):
So thank you.

Kena Siu (01:28):
So Nadine is a certified money coach and
somatic practitioner who helpedcoaches, creatives and
mission-driven humans heal theirrelationship with money so they
can earn more, stress less andlive out their boldest dreams.

(01:51):
Nadine was born in Amman,jordan, has lived in Australia,
france and the US.
She currently resides inAlbuquerque, new Mexico, with
her partner, tommy, and theirfour baby, arby, which is
adorable baby dog.
Nadine brings deep financialexpertise, expertise, lived
experience and trauma informedmagic to every conversation.
Her specialty helping peopleunfactor money patterns with

(02:15):
compassion, clarity and just theright amount of cursing which I
love by the her podcast isUn-Fuck your Money, you can have
a listen to it.
It's going to be added to theshow notes.
So glad to have you here,Nadine.
Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me.

Kena Siu (02:38):
I would like to start first with your story.
What brought you to actuallybecome a money coach?

well, I am just very good at money, but I wasn't
always good at money, so I grewup with a lot of scarcity.
Money was very scary outsidethe house and inside the house
we had a lot of things happenpolitically, geopolitically and
economically around us in the80s in Jordan.

(03:07):
There were wars everywhere andmy dad was very strict and money
was used to really manipulateus, to control us.
And when I finished universityI kind of realized that I cannot
escape money, that it'sactually going to be that thing
that I'm going to have tounderstand.

(03:28):
So, like every otheroverachiever does, I studied the
heck out of it.
I studied money.
I wanted to just control it, soit doesn't control me.
So I was in my nine to five Iwas reading all the personal
finance books and, honestly,like my dad was strict with
money because we didn't havemuch of it when we were growing

(03:49):
up and he was really strict withevery, every, every JD, every
like, every cent Right, and hetaught me a lot about money.
He taught me a lot about it, butperhaps in to maybe too much,
maybe too much for a littlechild to learn about that much
money, because I grew up with anunderspending money block,
which we're going to get intolater on.
Um, and that actually got worsebecause I left Jordan when I

(04:13):
was 23, 24, I went to Australiaand I was really on my own.
So it was just me and money andI was trying to live my life in
the most responsible way.
And I was overly responsibleand then fast forward.
I don't know how many yearslater maybe 15 years later I
started my business and thatchanged my the whole

(04:34):
relationship dynamic with money,because it went from something
that I needed to control tosomething that I needed to kind
of allow magic to happen.
And that is how I startedlearning about inner child
healing and how our earlychildhood experiences has a lot
to do with how we relate tomoney in our later in life.

(04:56):
And I dug into all of that stuffand became a somatic
practitioner still studying to,you know, to be fully certified
in that, but I am, you know,certified to some degree and I
this is what I do now.
I do this full-time, lucky forme I help people unfuck their
money, as you put it, as mypodcast is called unfuck your
money.

(05:16):
And I do it in a very holisticway because, um, not only am I
happy to help people with thenuts and bolts and the numbers,
but I also help people withtheir relationship with money,
as in, like them, money are in arelationship and the
relationship coach kind of thing.
That's how I would like to sayit.
So we do inner child healing,we do a lot of emotional

(05:38):
literacy, because most of ourfinancial decisions are actually
emotional, not logical.
Of our financial decisions areactually emotional, not not
logical.
So I won't be fully holistic ifI'm only teaching them about
numbers and call myself holistic, right.
So teaching them about thenumbers, but equally teaching
them about how to processemotions, how to talk to their
inner child, talk to theirdifferent parts and their

(05:59):
archetypes.
And you know that, ken, wecovered that a lot inside of my
programs and also doing a lot ofnervous system work, because a
lot of times it's not about howclever we are with money, it's
not about willpower, it's reallyabout dysregulation, and we
will definitely get into thatthroughout this episode.
Yeah.

Kena Siu (06:20):
Thank you.
I love how you said, like whenyou were talking about your
story, that you didn't want toallow money to control you, and
I think that's such a powerfulstatement because we are so
unaware or at least I was veryunaware how controlled I was by

(06:40):
money and how it affects.

I remember, oh yeah.
I remember I remember when westarted.
When we started, that was in 232023 and I remember how things
shifted very fast for you whenwe were uncovering that stuff,
right, yes yeah.

Kena Siu (06:57):
I remember one article yeah, I one of the biggest.
Yeah, I remember when we didactually our story about money.
That was a very powerfulpractice that we did that.
I guess we can also talk aboutit a bit later as well, for you
know, for people to know what isit.
I would like to dive in firstwith the question to know which

(07:19):
is the difference between moneyblock and money wounds.

I don't think that there's a difference.
The word wounds it refers moreto trauma, but the word blocks
really refers to the behavior Iwould say.
But it's same same butdifferent.
Like when I say money blocks, Idon't know about other people.
A lot of people use a lot ofthings out there the wild, wild
internet, I don't care, but forme, use a lot of things out
there the wild, wild internet, Idon't care, but for me
personally, um, the wound, itrefers to the trauma, like

(07:49):
what's the under lights, thatokay, the, the submerged bit of
the ice iceberg, and the blockis really the behavioral pattern
.
But a lot of people, you know,I was talking a lot about money
wounds and a lot of people werelike I don't know what that is.
And when I started talkingabout money blocks which is
pretty much the same, I justchanged the word people started
relating more so it's just amatter of just changing a word,

(08:12):
but really what they both areare protective patterns.
They really are protectivepatterns.
This is how our nervous systemkeeps us safe, right, even
though they they sound or theycan look.
To the naked eye they can looklike bad money habits, but
really they're very protectivepatterns and the way that we
deal with them is very differentto the traditional financial

(08:34):
systems out there.

Kena Siu (08:35):
So, yeah, Yona, I really love your approach.
I just said that is a holisticway.
I love that so much because, Imean, we definitely are body,
mind and soul and we need totake care of all these parts of
us while doing this process,because money plays a big role
in our lives.

It's playing a bigger and bigger role.
I don't know if it's becausewe're getting older and we're
noticing, or because the worldis changing, but I feel like
money is becoming more of athing that can be used to
control us.
So that's why it's veryimportant to take a step back
and take and do a like, have aholistic approach to it.
Um, that is going to reallyheal your relationship with it,

(09:18):
so that you can actually be withit.
Not in it, if that makes sense.
You're not like controlled byit, but where you're actually
working with it.
Not in it, if that makes sense.
You're not like controlled byit, but where you're actually
working with it as a companion,as opposed to, uh, the boss.

Kena Siu (09:30):
You know what I mean yeah, I know what you mean, yeah
and so like.

Taking a holistic approach will really help you
take a step back and assess andactually put down your, your
standard, how you want to, howyou want the relationship
dynamic to be right, instead ofjust being swept away by the
status quo.

Kena Siu (09:51):
Yes, and that comes related, I think, a lot, at
least for me, money was a lotrelated to my self-worth,
definitely, definitely.

(10:11):
So how does actually healingour relationship with money, can
you know, can directly impactour self-worth or vice versa?
Because, as you said, well.

Well, restoring our sense of self-worth.
It requires multiple componentstogether.
It requires defaming.
It means that means likereleasing the idea that there's
something inherently wrong withus.
It requires theself-forgiveness, a lot of
self-forgiveness, for the waythat we cope, for the way that

(10:40):
we survive, because we didn'tknow better.
It requires letting go ofinherited stories, of letting go
of stories that we survivedbecause we didn't know better.
It requires letting go ofinherited stories, of letting go
of stories that say that we'rebad, that actually weren't ours
to carry in the first place.
It also requires reparentingand really learning how to talk
to the inner critic, notsilencing it, but understanding

(11:02):
where it's coming from, tochoose a new voice, to choose a
better way to relate toourselves.
It requires a lot of nervoussystem regulation as well, so we
can feel worthy in our nervoussystem, not just like affirm it,
you know, in our brain.
It also requires that wereclaim our desires, that we
actually sit down and say whatdo I want?

(11:24):
Because a lot of times, when ourself-esteem or our self-worth
is low, we don't actually allowourselves to have desires.
Or maybe because of our trauma,because of our past, we were
taught that having desires isselfish it's actually not, it's
actually sacred and alsoboundaries.
To reclaim our self-worth, weneed boundaries and we need to

(11:45):
surround ourselves with allies,with people that love us, to be
in safe co-regulation and notbeing judged.
So these are the things that Iwould say people need to start
rebuilding their self-worth andonce that is happening and it's
a practice, right, it's not anevery day, not like one and done
kind of thing, it's a practice,right, it's not an every day,
it's not like one, one and donekind of thing, it's a practice.

(12:06):
Your relationship with money isjust going to change because
you're changing from the insideout and our relationship with
money is an internalrelationship, it's not just an
external relationship.
So that's, that's the longanswer yeah, no, thank you.

Kena Siu (12:21):
It's a beautiful answer.
Yeah, and I remember when, whenI was in the program with you
coming back, when I did thestory of my money, my money
study, and I noticed that a lotof stuff didn't even come
directly from me, they weren'tpatterns, they weren't heritage,

(12:41):
like you know, having a theyweren't yours.
No, they were not.
They were not mine, not mine.
I remember, like just bynoticing that, well, my
grandfather arrived to Mexicofrom China when he was like 12
years old, so just thinkingabout that was just like a.
It was like a breakthrough forme to understanding, like, okay,
so that's why a lot of scarcitymindset patterns and it also

(13:04):
came from my mom's family, sounderstanding those patterns it
really helped me a lot and, asyou said, because I thought
there was something wrong withme and they were like no, it's
just you know things that arepassing to us without even
knowing.
So, questioning how our parentsand then the people behind them

(13:29):
actually had the relationshipwith money, it helped me a lot
to heal yeah, definitely.

Yeah, I feel like I carry a lot of like misery
baggage from my lineage.
You know, I don't know for afact, but I just feel like
there's a lot of hard work thatwas in my lineage, a lot of hard
work, and that's probably whatI'm carrying as well.
That money just comes from hardwork, or actually we just need
to work hard full stop and likemoney is just something that's

(14:01):
going to be hard as well.
Right, like that's probably myown story from my lineage.
So it's good to understand whatour stories are, what what has
been passed on to us and what'snot ours to carry yes,
definitely yeah, that makes thatit makes a huge difference.

Kena Siu (14:20):
What are some common money wounds, uh, or blocks, as
we said, that show up more, likefor midlife women, you know,
especially like after divorce ora career shift or a big life
change that they may have.

Okay, so I'm going to tell you the four most
common money blocks that I seeand that's my industry and then
you tell me because that's yourindustry, yes of what you think
are the most common for women inin transition.
Okay, okay, sounds good, allright.
So from my work, years andyears and years of working and

(14:59):
you know me, I'm a nerd, so Istudy things I don't just take,
I don't just like look atinformation, I actually study
and I investigate and I go deepinside of everything, I have
concluded very safely concludedthat we that money blocks come
in four forms there's theoverspending money block, the

(15:20):
underspending money block, theavoidance money block and the
over giving money block.
So these are the four moneyblocks and, to answer your
question, maybe I'll ask it backto you what do you think is the
most common one?
I feel like all four of themwould be common, depending on
the person's money story, theperson's circumstances, the

(15:41):
person's own past and historywith money.
I think all four of them wouldapply, don't you think?
yeah, I think so life especiallythe overgiving wound, I think
for women especially, regardlessof midlife or not or in
transition or not, I think theovergiving is just prevalent.
It's a women thing, yeah, it's aprogram, it's a thing, yes,

(16:03):
definitely, um, the overgivingone is like the most socially
acceptable one, because peopleare like you're overspending, oh
no, you need to look at yourmoney.
But I think the underspendingand the overgiving are the most
socially, um, acceptableadaptive mechanisms, because
they're all coping mechanisms,they're all adaptive mechanisms

(16:24):
for, yeah, to keep to stay safeand, kind of like, survive,
right, but um, yeah, so I wouldsay all four of them would apply
to this case to answer thisquestion okay, yeah, it
resonates a lot for me.

Kena Siu (16:37):
The, the underspending , yeah, yeah, because then it's
like, okay, we want to have thehouse and everyone to be okay or
whatever.
So we tend to prioritize othersinstead of prioritizing
ourselves.
Yeah, right, I remember when Iwas married, like if I would go
to a store or something, or if Iwould travel because of work, I

(17:00):
would think first about buyingsomething for him.
That for me, you know, so likeinteresting definitely yeah,
yeah, yeah how can childhoodexperiences impact our

(17:21):
relationship with money as anadults?

It has everything to do with childhood experiences
.
That's my take is that how werelate to money now has a lot to
do with what we've gone throughin childhood Not necessarily
directly with money, butwhatever we've experienced in
childhood and how we internalizeour sense of self-worth, how we
internalize our sense ofbelonging, our sense of

(17:47):
acceptance, what we learnedabout conditional or
unconditional love this all hasa lot to do with how we relate
to our finances later in life.
So you tell me how you finance.
I could probably help youconnect the dots to your
childhood, which I did, by theway.
Yes, but that's kind of my jamkind of thing.

Kena Siu (18:08):
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kena Siu (18:13):
Hmm, like can you give us, I don't know like an
example?

Yeah, so with your example, you said you've, you
had the underspending and theovergiving wounds, right, yeah,
okay, so when we did your moneyhistory and your money story and
all that, yeah, what?
How did we go back and how didwe link it to your own sense of

(18:38):
of everything when you were akid?
yeah, oh yeah, it was definitelymy, my sense of unworthiness
yeah, and the thing is, it's notthat your parents I don't think
that your parents were likeyou're unworthy.
Some parents do tell theirchildren they're unworthy, but
no, it was super subtle with me.

(19:00):
It's very it's very subtle,right?
Yeah, because it's as simple asyou go to the shops and you ask
for something, and maybe theyreally don't have the money for
it, or maybe you have too muchof it.
Whatever it is, they say no,but it depending depends on the
day and which side of the bedyou, you, you woke up on it's,

(19:21):
so it's so temperamental, it'sfor real, though.
We can internalize this like oh, my cousin has it and I don't.
I must be a bad girl, I must beunworthy, I must be.
You know, I don't think wewould use the word worthy or
unworthy when we were kids, butit must be like something's
wrong with me.
I'm bad, you know so a lot oftimes, because I would imagine

(19:44):
that we all grew up withimperfect parents.
They're humans.
They might be exhausted, theymight be drained, they might be
tired, sick, not availableanything, or emotionally
immature.
Let's just put it this way.
A lot of what they or howthey're related to us
relationally is going to tell usa lot about ourselves, right?

(20:06):
Yeah, so that also translatesinto our relationship with money
.
Let's say you grew up with asingle mom, right, your mom had
to work all the time, and let'ssay that you needed her to help
you with homework and she's like, oh my God, I'm tired or
something.
You could internalize this asmy needs are too much, and you

(20:27):
grow up as a people pleaser.
Or you grow up with no needs.
I'm somebody that has no needs.
And what happens to your money?
You just give it to everyoneelse, right?
Like you earn your money andyou overgive it.
Or you earn your money, youunderspend it, like you keep
hoarding it and you don't enjoylife because you don't even know
what you want, you don't evenknow who you are.
But it's not like the oneincident.
I don't want to scare people.

(20:48):
It's usually a bunch ofincidents that happen, it's just
not the one.
Maybe it's the one we don'tknow, because trauma is very
subjective.
It's not objective.
It's what happens inside of youas a result of what happened to
you.
So it's not about being overlysensitive or overly anything.

(21:08):
It's really how you took things, how you internalize things,
how things were presented to youand so on and so forth.
It's so like no two people notwo people that have the
underspending wound, for example, had had the exact
circumstances growing up, or notwo siblings internalize the
same trauma, let's say, becauseeach person die digestion
digests things very differentlyyeah, you know when, when you

(21:32):
were given the example I I itreminded me to.

Kena Siu (21:36):
I have a cousin, we have the same age and her mom is
a single mom, like as we arethree, we're three siblings and
sometimes you know, yeah, as yousay, like I will ask for
something, and then probably mymom will say no, no, not now, or
whatever.
And I remember this very case,I don't know, probably we're
like seven, eight years old,something like that we went to

(21:57):
this store and then we like thislittle, like a little booklet,
you know.
So they said, okay, we're gonnabuy them.
Of course there were a lot of,you know, with a cover,
different designs and whatever,and I finally chose one and she
also wanted the same.
You know how we are right.
And and then at the end, if I'mnot wrong, I actually end up say

(22:19):
telling her okay, you can takethis one, because she used to
have like the way my aunt andshe still is again, it's a story
right, like we need to heal heror we don't heal it anyway.
So in this case, like she willover give to her all the time.
I guess, because of the factthat she was a single mom, she

(22:43):
wanted to give everything elseto her right.
So she will spoil her to acertain level too.
And at the end I remember Ijust needed to give up the
little booklet that I love to,you know, for my casting.
So she will be okay because shewas having like a tantrum or
something, and then I just showsomething else.

(23:10):
But at that time in, I mean, Ididn't know how am I gonna know
that?
You know that my cussing wasacting that way because of how
my aunt, you know, treated herfor being a single mom.

You're not, you're not meant to know exactly, and
she probably didn't know at thetime no, of course, and she
probably doesn't know at thistime.

Kena Siu (23:30):
You know, but that's what I mean, like I it's, it's
as you said, it's how weinternalize or how we interpret
the different situations that weexperience and then from there,
how we think and how we start,as you said, like being the
people pleaser or, you know,having all other these other, um
, protecting mechanisms or orthings like that sorry, I had to

(23:58):
turn the light on.

I was.
It was getting really dark inmy head.
It's nighttime here.
Yes, I really resonate withthat, because a lot of times
what we do is we compare.
But we all compare right, Evennow we compare.
But when we were kids we wouldcompare, of course.

Kena Siu (24:15):
Yes, and um, how can we start shifting?
You know our little innercritic, or parts?
I know I know you call themprotecting parts and I love that

(24:37):
because I remember when, whenwe went through the archetypes,
it was like just by seeing themas a protected part and
understanding that they have arole and it's okay and we have
them all in a certain way oranother, yeah, and welcoming
them instead of rejecting thembecause they are part of us,

(25:01):
yeah, that was very, very, veryhealing for me, certainly so
yeah how can we then start thenjust shifting that little critic
, you know, like saying, oh, I'mnot good with money, or uh, as
you said before, like I have to,to work hard to be able to have
money to start shifting thosetough wires you know?

yeah, in our mind let me tell you something.
I, as we're speaking it's it'sMay right now I am currently
putting together a free program.
It's a five-day mini course onhow to do exactly that, on how
to reset your finances, how toreset the way that you think

(25:46):
about money, just to shifteverything.
But by the time this goes live,hopefully I'll have a link to
the program in case somebodywants to join it.
It really takes you step bystep.
So the first thing I would sayis I can't help you if you're
not aware that you have thesepatterns right.
So the first thing is ifthey're listening to this, they

(26:07):
probably are aware that theyhave something going on, so
let's just assume that yes,although I don't want
assumptions, but let's just,let's just say so.
The first thing I would do is Iwould try to be as close as
possible to what my money blocksare.
Which of the four money blocksdo you resonate with the most?

(26:27):
The underspender, the overgiver, the overspending or the
avoider?
It's usually a combination of abunch of them, right, but there
is going to be a primary one.
So we start there, so weuncover what your primary money

(26:47):
block is.
The other thing I would say isyou really need to have an
aligned cash flow system.
We cannot just do the emotionalwork without the logical work
with money.
Right, we need to do them intandem.
We cannot just, we can't justdo all the emotional work, which
I love, but we need to do ithand in hand with the logical
work, because the nuts and boltsof money is important.

(27:08):
They are very important as well.
So you need to find an alignedcashflow system.
The one that I teach is thebucket system.
I talk you on how to set it upfor yourself.
In the program you still use ityeah, that's brilliant, yeah
awesome oh my god, my work isdone.

Kena Siu (27:27):
No, it's, it's very useful.
I mean just yeah, it is.
I've been using mine.

I set mine up 20 years ago and I never had to
change anything.
I've moved countries, changedbanks.
It's the same system.
All I need to do is just likecopy and paste.
It's great.

Kena Siu (27:41):
Yeah, the other thing is oh, sorry, can you give a
little brief to people to sothey can understand what, uh,
what is this?

well, yeah, um, you, basically you know how, if
you have a drawer and it's fullof clothes and you get these
like Ikea dividers and you putthese dividers in and then all
of a sudden your drawer has likea section for knickers, a
section for bras, a section fort-shirts and a section for pants
let's just say it's a very bigdrawer.
That's exactly what we do withyour finances.

(28:09):
You, usually, when people startworking with me, their money is
all piled up in one bankaccount.
So we um use their journal, usea spreadsheet, whatever rocks
their boat.
Um, we um uh, kind of like lookat their expenses and then we
divide the.
We divide these expenses intosub accounts within their main
bank account.

(28:29):
This way, they're not mixingand matching their finances.
They're.
They know that this money isearmarked for for bills, this
money is earmarked for groceries, so on and so forth, and for
savings, etc.
So it's really a really coolway to organize your finances,
and I'm a Virgo so I teach itvery well.

Kena Siu (28:46):
Yes, I know you do, I teach it very well and you know
what I have to say this that,yeah, having those buckets, as
you said, just knowing that themoney is there, that I'm not
going to spend it if I have itin my main checking account,
it's a relief it is a nervoussystem friendly way.

Oh yeah, definitely definitely yes, the
other thing I would also say isto to start, you know, having a
better relationship with moneyis that you need to learn how to
set proper money goals.
The money goal systems outthere are not nervous system
friendly.
They can be, they can be reallysexy or they can be really
smart or they can be whateveryou want to call them but

(29:25):
they're not nervous systemfriendly.
So I developed a system when soI looked at all the money
traditional goal setting methodsout there and I applied the
polyvagal theory on them and Inow teach a system that is
stress free.
So you need to learn how to setgoals that are achievable,
because that is very healing.

(29:46):
When you set a goal foryourself that you can achieve,
it is a very, very healing thingthat you can do for yourself.
The other thing is, of course,the inner work.
The inner work is inner childhealing.
It is understanding youremotional landscape,
understanding the main emotionsthat come up when finances are
happening, and understandingwhat are the emotions that

(30:08):
you're actually scared of.
Because when we're scared ofemotions, when there are
emotions that are no-no for us,that's when we distract
ourselves with, with shoppingright.
So we need to understand whatemotions are okay for us.
When emotions are not okay forus.
What emotions are not okay forus?
What emotions drive us to um,to over overspend, for example,
or underspend, and learn how toprocess these emotions, because

(30:29):
every emotion has it's a system,it's a whole like system in
your body.
You need to learn how toprocess it out.
The other thing I would alsosay is you need co-regulation.
You need, you need a therapist,a coach or a practitioner that
is going to take you through, oryou need a safe space to kind
of digest and integrate all thistogether.
You cannot do this alone.

Kena Siu (30:51):
Yeah, I totally agree.

You agree, I tried even me with my knowledge, me
and my training.
There are some certain stickymoney blocks that I need someone
to help me with?
oh yeah, definitely, because,again, money plays a big role in
our lives, like every singleday, and if we are afraid, like

(31:14):
for me was the scarcity mindsetit was just so, so insane that
you know like not buyingsomething or using things in
less quantity because I didn'twant it to run out of them very
fast finish yeah, or or likewhen you, when you like
something and you buy it, buylike thousands of it so that you

(31:38):
never run out, and then, like ayear later, you're like why the
hell do I have all that?

Kena Siu (31:42):
yeah, that too.
Or even sometimes, you know,like, um, I remember what, uh,
with my ex-husband, like at onepoint we would have a budget for
, you know, for for thegroceries, and then at one point
we kept growing in our jobs, wewere making better money, you
know better quantity of money,and we stood with the same
amount of money for budgetingand then we didn't want to spend

(32:05):
more in things that we actuallywanted to eat and it was like,
you know, and that was one ofthe reasons of our relationship,
and I know it came more from myside, that scarcity mindset.
But it's just crazy how welimit ourselves by having a bad
relationship with money and westop really enjoying life.

How did that protect you, though, at the time
.

Kena Siu (32:36):
That's a good question .
I'm full of them.
Yes, I know.
Question I'm full of them.
Yes, I know.
How did my scarcity mindsetprotected me?
Yeah, it was a way to feel safe.
Yeah, it was really thatBecause I felt like if I would

(32:59):
run out of it, then I would nothave enough Then for food or for
rent or for you know otherthings that I needed to cover.

So there is, and was, some wisdom in that right.
There is a wisdom in it, so wecannot poo-poo all over it.

Kena Siu (33:18):
We can't.
Oh, no, no, not at all.
No, no, no, and I know it wasthere for a reason.
Yeah, you know.
So, yeah, so, understanding andhealing, that it's so
liberating it is.

(33:40):
Yeah, I understand.
Yeah, mm-hmm, that it's so,it's so liberating it is.
Yeah, I understand.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know if Iinterrupted you for the steps
that you were saying that aregoing.
No, I was done.
Okay, I just wanna, I just wantto double check that.
I just didn't cut you out.
Okay, that's good.
Yeah, what are some signs thatour nervous system is
dysregulated when it comes tomoney?

well, there's a lot of signs.
So what do you know about thenervous system?

Kena Siu (34:07):
responses kenna for me was the freeze response the
freeze response.
Oh yeah, the first responseyeah, well for me was the main
one, but yeah, I know it was.
Yeah, we have the fight or orfight and which I'm missing, one
uh, that's okay.

So our nervous system is wired to protect us,
right, it doesn't care about usthriving, it just wants us to
survive.
And the way that our nervoussystem protect us, right, it
doesn't care about us thriving,it just wants us to survive.
And the way that our nervoussystem protects us is through
four mechanisms fight, flight,freeze and fawn.
Okay, so the thing is, whenmoney because of our past, when

(34:50):
money triggers danger in ournervous system, or if our
nervous system is alreadyactivated, already dysregulated,
we I'm going to use the wordmisbehave, but it's not really
what I mean we act out withmoney.
So in the fight response, ournervous system is activated

(35:11):
towards control or evenaggression, and that financially
can look like hustling nonstop.
Our nervous system is activatedtowards control or even
aggression, and that financiallycan look like hustling nonstop,
like you have to earn yourworth.
It can look like obsessivelytracking money or micromanaging
every penny.
It can look like rage orirritability when we're dealing
with money issues.
It can look like getting intoconflicts about money with

(35:33):
clients, with your partner, withyour friends, with yourself.
I asked a client of mine oncelike, do you have any arguments
with money?
And she's like with myself andfeeling like, oh, I'm hyper
independent, I'm going to figureit all on my own, I don't care,
I don't need anybody else.
That is signs that your nervoussystem is in a fight response

(35:53):
when it comes to finances, or italready is in fight response
and also in in finances.
You know what I mean.
It's like one thing that leadsto the other, the flight
response.
It looks like the avoidance,that run away from money kind of
thing avoiding your bankaccount, avoiding the bills,
avoiding your any emails aboutmoney, dissociating or like
going away or changing thesubject when the topic of money

(36:17):
is coming up, overworking ortaking too many projects because
you're scared.
That's a flight response.
Always chasing the next bigthing, the next big, what's it
called?
The next big launch or the nextbig I don't know idea, without
finishing anything.
Feeling like you're always,like you always have something
new pop up.

(36:38):
Also being a manifestationjunkie, also like always looking
for manifestation to come andsave you.
You're running away like, oh,my god, I can't look at my
reality.
Manifestation is going to saveme, okay.
The freeze response is when ournervous system is shut down or
overwhelmed, and it can alsolook like avoidance, but it
looks different Because theflight response you're actually

(37:00):
running away from it.
The freeze response is totallike you shut down, you're like
you're frozen, you dissociate,you're like you're ghosting your
money.
You feel paralyzed when itcomes to doing any financial
tasks.
You have brain fog,dissociation, even numbness.
When you try to budget or planand you're fine right.

(37:23):
But when somebody asks youabout money, you just really
numb out.
You don't know about yournumbers, you don't know anything
about them.
And then we've got the phoneresponse, which is when the
nervous system seeks safetythrough pleasing and appeasing
and especially for entrepreneurs, that can look like
undercharging or over delivering.
To avoid conflict and to keepmake sure that people like us,

(37:46):
maybe we discount our work whenwe don't really need to or want
to.
We avoid setting boundariesboundaries especially with like
payment plans.
Um, when people owe us money,we prefer not to mention it,
just because we don't want tolike rock the boat kind of thing
.
So I don't think that we're inone response like I don't.

(38:07):
I can't say like you're alwaysin flight response.
It's usually a combination ofof one or the other, just like I
was talking about the moneyblocks.
It's not just like one, it'sjust usually a combination of
them.

Kena Siu (38:20):
So yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that, because I
think we're not aware like weusually talk about the nervous
system in you know, based onstress or you know at work or
something like that.
But yeah, definitely, yeah, wedon't usually put it into money,

(38:41):
into that relationship.

Yeah, not many people do actually, but it's
important to know these things,so I'm glad that you asked no,
yeah, definitely, it isimportant and I can relate to,
yeah, the four of them same itwas.
It was a mix all of all of them.
I still relate to them.
I mean, we're not perfect,right?
We're always doing the workit's a practice.

Kena Siu (39:07):
Yeah, it's a yeah, it's definitely a practice and,
as you mentioned before, it'sabout having that awareness to
really noticing and because,yeah, I remember one of the
things that I learned in andwhen I was working with you was
really sinking into my body.
I knew a vague idea about thenervous system by then, and when

(39:28):
, yeah, when we started like nostart, like feeling it in your
body, and I was like, oh my God,like when I will feel like this
kind of like tiniest in mychest for, I don't know, having
to spend on on something orbecause I I knew I didn't have
enough money or you know.
So, learning to, yeah, feel thebody, to understand how, how my

(39:51):
system was working, and thentrying to figure out, okay, what
is it that then I have to do orthat I can do to then improve
the level of whatever I was inthe scale.
You know, it was very, yeah, itwas very healing for me to

(40:13):
understand that, because Ialways put it more like in the
mind.
It was very healing for me tounderstand that Because I always
put it more in the mind,because I was really like, okay,
the numbers, I knew up to everypenny.
And my mom still tells me thatwhen I was a kid.

So you weren't really in freeze, you were more
in fight.
I remember you being, you werefighting me at some point I'm
like calm, calm down.

Kena Siu (40:36):
I'm not money.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, it was not freeze.
Yeah, it was more fight.
Yeah, because I remember likehaving conversations about money
.
It was a big struggle with me.
I will know about every pennyand, yeah, I will have also
discussions in fights in my headwith money.
Yeah, it's very interesting howwe function as human beings.

(41:02):
Definitely, yeah, yes, canmoney trauma live in our body?

Where else is it going to live?
Do you think it lives in thebrain?
It doesn't live in the brain.

Kena Siu (41:16):
It lives in your body.
Where else is it going to live?
Is it?
Do you think it lives in thebrain?
It doesn't live in the brain,it lives in your body.
Probably that's why I probablythat's what I'm asking that,
because I thought it was in mymind, even though now I just
said yes yeah.

So as the saying, as the buzzword says these days,
the body keeps the score.
Yeah, your, your money trauma,your money blocks.
They live in your body andthat's why I can.
I combine somatic healing withum, with money coaching.

Kena Siu (41:41):
I think it's a beautiful, magical combination
and you give us an example, inthat case, of what you do as a
somatic work with healing ourmoney wounds so you know when
you mentioned that you wouldhave arguments in your head
about money yeah I wouldprobably in that case and we

(42:02):
probably did that many times isthat I would slow you down and
help you kind of tap into yourbody and sense into where you
actually feel that.

Where do you actually feel that sense of
fight?
And the body will reveal things.
I, you know, I cannot tell younow what happens, because there
is like a third force between meand you.
There's like a third thing thathappens and it's usually the
body just tells us a story.
You're, let's say, you can feelthat fight in your hand, or you
could feel that fight in yourchest, or you could feel that as

(42:33):
like this explosion in your, inyour belly.
We'll go there and once we tapinto that, a story will come up
and that's what.
When we start doing the somaticrelease yeah, it's.
I cannot say exactly how ithappens, because it's I've done
this a million times and everytime well, not a million
thousands, honestly every timeit has a different outcome or a

(42:57):
different story, a differentrelease, a different.
It's just amazing what the bodycan hold and how, when you
learn or when you work withsomeone that knows how to teach
you to speak to your body, howto speak to your younger parts,
you can really unravel andliberate yourself from a lot.

Kena Siu (43:24):
Yeah, yeah, you can really unravel and liberate
yourself from a lot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
I remember a lot.
We did a lot of inner work.
Yeah, that little child neededto be heard.
I remember that.
Hell yeah, what are somepowerful yet practical first
steps that we can start doing toheal our money wounds?

That is what I was saying, that's the program that
I'm going to be running, thatfive-day program.
So really understanding that wehave blocks, what the blocks
are?
Creating a cash flow system,doing the inner work, setting
achievable financial goals anddoing things with people in
celebration, celebrating thesmall wins, but also like

(44:11):
healing with people as well.
So co-regulation, that's mystandard.
Like these are the five stepsthat you know we don't do them
in sequence, but these are thefive things that need to happen
to start unraveling our survivalresponses, to start resetting
our relationship with money towhere the dynamic is healthier

(44:33):
okay I sound like a brokenrecord but honestly it's not.

Kena Siu (44:37):
It's nothing fancy, it's just yeah, no, uh-huh, no,
yeah, and it makes sense.
It has to be all of thosetogether.
Yeah, that's, that's yeah.
That's the only way you cannotput the.
It's, as you said, as youmentioned at the very beginning,
it's a holistic approach.
We cannot just work on onething, because it's too many
things at the same time.

It's definitely definitely yeah, yeah, and you
got to do the work.
There's no, I mean there's.
I'm not going to be the onethat's going to tell you it's
going to be easy.
And if somebody is going totell you you can do it in, like
I don't know, three months,whatever they promise you out
there in the wild, wild internet, it's going to be long and it's

(45:19):
going to be.
It's going to take years to.
If you really have a lot ofmoney blocks, it's going to take
years.
It really is.
It might.
It doesn't have to be painfulif you know it can be very
enjoyable.
We had a great time in ourprogram.

Kena Siu (45:34):
Yes.

But it's.
It's going to take a while andit's a practice.
What I mean by a practice?
I don't mean that you have topractice it.
I mean just like you don'tfinish yoga.
It's not like you know a gameon the internet of like on on
your computer.
When you finish it and you getthe princess and you're done.
It's like yoga.
You always will do yoga.
It's the same with money.
You will always, always have aholistic money practice if that

(45:58):
is the type of approach that youwant to take with it yeah you
know what?

Kena Siu (46:04):
I want to mention something when we were on the
program.
Uh, because I remember from myside was the scarcity mindset,
and I remember there was anotherperson that she struggled with
her money relationship becauseshe had a lot of money in her
family.
I remember, yeah Right, so it'sincredible how it works either

(46:25):
side.
So it doesn't matter.
I do think that all of us, wegotta improve the relationship
with money, so it doesn't matterif we have, if people had a lot
of money or have less money orhad never had money like all of
us.
It's, it's a relationship thatwe really need to, to heal, to
live better that's what I alwayssay.

I'm very good at money.
It's not because I'm rolling init, it's because I know how to
hold fifty50 or $50,000 or$500,000.
Like they don't freak me out.
That is what it actually meansright now, in this day and age
of like overwhelm.

Kena Siu (47:06):
Yes, yeah, this has been brilliant, nadine.
I really appreciate all yourwisdom and your life experience
brought in here.
Thank you.
I don't know if you would liketo add something else.
This call something that youwant to share, either if it's
related to what we have talkedor something else.
Whatever is welcome.

Nothing.
I'm just very proud of you,Kenna.
You've come a long way and I'mvery proud of you and I'm proud
of your podcast and I'm happythat you invited me to be on
here.
You and I'm proud of yourpodcast and I'm happy that you
invited me to be on here andyeah, I just wanted to add that
that you're doing great and youlook great and I think so good
to to hang out and talk aboutstuff thank you so much.

Kena Siu (47:45):
I really appreciate you and I appreciate your, your
words.
They're they really, theyreally mean a lot and uh, yeah,
and I'm very glad, uh, for us tohave this conversation and I'm
I'm sure I'm gonna invite youagain so you can talk more are
you sure it's recorded?

look, look how I freaked you out.

Kena Siu (48:04):
I checked.
I know I freaked you out no, itis, it is well thank you so
much, nadineine, again, andwe're going to be sharing
Nadine's workshop information inthe show notes for everyone who
would like to join.
It's going to be for free andyou can start working in your

(48:25):
relationship with money so youcan live better Definitely.
Live better Definitely.

It really affects your quality of life, doesn't it
?
Yes, better, definitely itreally.
It really affects your qualityof life, doesn't it?
Yes, it's one of the bestthings that you can do for
yourself is heal your stresswith money, because it's really
gonna improve your life.

Kena Siu (48:41):
So oh, yes, yeah it has it has in in in myself.
So I know, and I know that thatthe work that you do it's so
passionate.
It's in yeah, I remember andyou know like cursing and
everything, and I remember itwas just like, yeah, like this
is it?
It's just like it's sopassionate, so, from from your

(49:04):
core and your heart and it'sjust magical.
So thank you so much.

Thank you, so much .
Thanks everyone for listening.
Yes, thank you everyoneinstagram is at nadine if you
need to connect.
If you're going to listen tothis episode, tag us.
Tag canna and I on your stories.

Kena Siu (49:22):
We'd love to uh reshare oh, yes, and also yeah
again.

Uh, nadine's podcast is on the unfuck your
money podcast, so check it outyou're gonna learn a lot from
there, so yeah, yeah, people arelike, why do you put everything
for free on your podcast?
And I'm like, well, who am I togatekeep the podcast?

Kena Siu (49:45):
is a great resource.
Yes, it is.
Yeah, okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for tuning intoMidlife Butterfly.
If this episode lit a spark inyou, hit that subscribe or
follow button on Apple Podcasts,spotify or wherever you love to
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If you're feeling generous,drop a review on Apple Podcasts.

(50:07):
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And don't forget to take aphoto of you while listening and
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You can tag me at Ken as you,so I can celebrate you and your
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Until next time, keep spreadingthose wings and living in joy,
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#22 - Healing Money Wounds in Midlife: Reclaim Your Self-Worth, Joy & Financial Freedom with Nadine Zumot

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#22 - Healing Money Wounds in Midlife: Reclaim Your Self-Worth, Joy & Financial Freedom with Nadine Zumot