March 20, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of MyFamily Pod, host Jane Tenquist welcomes Karen Blumenfeld, psychotherapist and co-founder of Hale Therapy Centre, to discuss one of the most complex and misunderstood issues in modern relationships: narcissism and coercive control.
As a divorce solicitor, Jane frequently encounters cases where one partner accuses the other of narcissistic behaviour or coercive control. But what do these terms really mean? How do they manifest in relationships? And how can individuals identify and navigate these dynamics?
Karen provides deep psychological insight into the spectrum of narcissism, from healthy self-esteem to narcissistic personality disorder, and explains the power imbalances, gaslighting, and emotional manipulation that often accompany coercive control. Together, Jane and Karen explore:
✔️ What narcissism really is – beyond the buzzword
✔️ How narcissistic traits impact relationships
✔️ Recognising coercive control and its effects
✔️ The emotional toll of being in a narcissistic relationship
✔️ How individuals can reclaim their sense of self
✔️ Why setting boundaries is crucial – and how to do it
✔️ How legal and therapeutic support can help victims regain control
If you or someone you know is struggling with an unhealthy relationship, this episode offers expert guidance and practical steps to help navigate these challenging situations.
Listen now and take the first step towards understanding and empowerment.
Find out more here: https://www.myerson.co.uk/personal/family-law
For more resources and support, you can also reach out to Karen at Hale Village Therapy Centre here: https://www.haletherapy.co.uk/karen-blumenfeld/
Stay tuned for more episodes of MyFamily Pod, where we tackle the issues that matter most to families. Don’t forget to subscribe and follow us on social media for updates!
LinkedIn: Myerson Solicitors
Instagram: @Myerson.Solicitors
Website: www.myerson.co.uk/
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Episode Transcript
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UNKNOWN (00:01):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Hello, my name is Jane Tenquist and welcome to my
family podcast.
Today, our guest is KarenBlumenfeld, who is the
co-founder of Hale TherapyCentre and is a psychotherapist.
She sees couples in relationshipcounselling and she also sees
individuals for personaltherapy.
(00:36):
Today, the topic of the podcastis therapy.
narcissism and coercive controland helps that Karen can provide
couples and individuals whobelieve that those issues are
affecting their relationship andI will talk about those themes
that I encounter as a divorcesolicitor.
(01:05):
Hello Karen, welcome.
Today we have Karen Blumenfeldwho is the co-founder of Hale
Village Therapy Centre.
She's a very dear friend of minetoo.
Thank you Jane.
Quite often as a divorce lawyerI come across people who
complain that their spouse is anarcissist or that they've been
in a coercive, contrivingrelationship.
(01:28):
And it seems to be a commontheme running through many
contemporary divorces and I waswondering whether you also have
people coming to see you as apsychotherapist for counselling
either as couples or privateindividuals to talk about the
(01:49):
issues that they have withintheir marriages caused by either
narcissism or coercive control Iwas wondering whether there is
such a thing as narcissism Goodquestion.
Okay, it's a very casuallybanded about word now to
(02:11):
describe a whole set ofcharacteristics, most of which
are negative.
In fact, one of usually whichare considered negative.
So it's the name given tocertain personality traits and
stems originally from the myth,the Greek myth, Narcissus, who
falls in love with hisreflection.
It was a he, but it could be ashe.
(02:32):
and that was his echo.
And so essentially he fell inlove with his own reflection and
it's come to mean an excessivefocus on oneself at the
exclusion of others and often atthe expense of others.
So the focus is self and thatperson comes across as selfish,
(02:52):
demanding, entitled andgenerally difficult to live
with.
I suppose we can all benarcissists to a certain extent.
Don't you think?
So there's a bit reallyimportant actually in this bit.
UNKNOWN (03:05):
So...
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
There is a spectrum.
I'm going with my hands in a bighorizontal line from completely
healthy narcissist, which I'llexplain, to what we would call
narcissistic personalitydisorder, which has a set of
about nine factorsdiagnostically.
And if you have seven of those,you will possibly have this
disorder.
(03:26):
But most people we meet havenarcissistic traits.
So I'm not really talking aboutvery extreme people who you'd
never see in therapy.
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
but you might get them as your clients, which
maybe will come to you later.
So healthy narcissism reallyvery basically means the
capacity to say no or yes.
authentically so not to becoerced or persuaded or to
please somebody but to say yes iwould like to do that or no i
(03:55):
can't do that so that's a realsignificant example of healthy
narcissism so we might call it asecure sense of self difficult
thing to describe what a self isit's a sort of intuitive
instinctive grounding in selfthat No, I can't do that.
So even on a very, very simplelevel, we arranged for me to
(04:15):
come in at 11.30.
I realised that was going to betight for me.
I realised that was going to betight for me.
I asked you whether we can do itat 12.
You don't take offence or have astrop because I'm not doing what
you want.
You said, yeah, sure.
Maybe you had to move somethingto adjust to my time.
But we did that together.
(04:37):
So that is a healthy thing.
process so largely what weexperience when we meet somebody
is a sense of entitlement and wesee the display of arrogant or
dismissive behaviors dismissingand disregarding the rules that
apply to others parking parkingwhere there there's no parking
(04:59):
because they have a big bigextensive car they think doesn't
matter i can pay the parkingfine the fact that the car is on
a double yellow line on the bendis not important to that person.
His or her need to be quick andget into that shot quickly or
out is the most important thing.
There are different types ofnarcissistic presentation.
So we kind of know we're in theprocess of some narcissistic
(05:23):
types because we can feelscared, nervous, apprehensive.
I know when I'm about to see aparticular kind of client, and
it can be female or male.
I feel I have to put a seatbelton and a bit of a hard hat and
breathe and really ground myselfbecause as easy as that person
has come to me because theythink I'm great, I can be
(05:45):
devalued.
So that's one very essentialingredient of what happens in
these relationships, that thenarcissistically orientated
person seduces or can entrap.
physically seduced orpsychologically seduced,
emotionally seduced, withcompliments and chattery.
(06:06):
So bloodbombing is taughtnowadays, romantically.
And so that person's drawn in,it feels amazing.
And echoes are attracted tonarcissists.
I mean, this is a broadbrushstroke here, but there are
certain...
types of personality who areattracted to a narcissistic type
of person yeah and so there's avery unhealthy co-dependence
(06:27):
that might develop um thesepeople called echoes they called
them echoes yeah yeah in otherwords you mirror that person,
provided you're mirroring thatperson perfectly.
It's all brilliant, it's allamazing.
But as soon as you say no, soyou start, that person begins to
get some agency.
Maybe they've had enough ofthis, or enough of the person's
(06:49):
behavior.
As soon as that person starts tosay no, then as quickly as, say,
you're a love bomb, they can bedevalued.
And you know that as asolicitor, a lawyer, and
probably as a therapist, thatyou can feel that shift If you
challenge.
But my job is to challenge.
And to some extent yours is aswell.
(07:10):
They're paying you for a serviceand they're paying me for a
service.
I think this excessive focus onself is the thing that mainly
defines how we might see thatpresentation.
So by sense of entitlement, itshows they could disregard a
person's feelings and feel sortof a lack of empathy.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
(07:31):
One of the classic...
presentations I've seen incampus therapy is seeing one
person, sometimes each of themdoing it, completely dismissing
or disregarding what it must be,what it must feel like to be the
other person.
So in psychotherapy, we call ita theory of mind, the idea that
there are two minds in the room,your mind, Jane, and my mind,
(07:53):
Karen.
I know I'm not you, you are notme, and we could disagree, and
hopefully, because we like eachother anyway, have not the
argument, and we'd be reallygood together, and actually
deepen the friendship.
And the people can do that inmarriages if they can deepen
their understanding and listenwith open ears.
then there will be a lot fewerbreakups.
(08:15):
But a narcissistic person cannotor will not or chooses not to do
that.
It's like if you draw a bigcircle, in that circle is just
the narcissistic person.
Everybody else is a projectedtool, an object, a player.
to move around on a chessboard.
(08:35):
Whereas with people who are notlike that, there are two
balloons next to each other.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
They're
SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
separate.
There's interdependence andinter-relativity.
But with a narcissist, there'sonly his or her world.
And I'm using my hands todescribe it.
I'm making circles with myhands, balloons.
So it's very challenging to livewith someone like that because
in a sense, you can't have atrue relationship with somebody
(09:02):
who doesn't actually acknowledgeyour existence as a separate
entity.
So I suppose true narcissistsdon't often end up in
counseling.
They don't.
Because they don't.
Oh, absolutely not.
It's quite challenging for themto actually self-reflect and
think that they're wrong.
Absolutely.
That would make them feeluncomfortable.
Yeah.
I mean, in reality, somebodyonly kind of really...
(09:27):
sharp-handed narcissist andbeing personality disordering.
So these are diagnosticcriteria, criteria for
personality disorder.
And most people will have, ifthey are highly narcissistic,
will have maybe at least five ofthese.
There are some people who haveall of them.
(09:48):
So here are the nine points.
Grandiosis of self-importance,exaggerated achievements, and
expects to be recognised assuperior in commensurate with
actual achievements.
I think that's really important.
So they're boastful, theyoverstate, they overpromise.
Preoccupied with fantasies ofunlimited success, power,
(10:10):
brilliance or ideal love.
So lots of imaginings of whothey could be, who they are, who
they would love to be with.
A belief that they're specialand unique and should associate
with other people.
such special or beautiful peopleso the kind of arm candy bit bit
(10:31):
making sure your husband or wifeis beautiful looks good on your
arm requires excessiveadmiration in bracket i might
get that if i had a gorgeouswoman man on my arm says
entitlement which we've talkedabout the rules that apply to
others don't apply to me expectsautomatic compliance with wishes
or expectations and imperiouswith the people that they assume
(10:54):
to be subordinate.
So it could be a waiter.
You know, that horrible behavioryou see sometimes.
In restaurants.
In restaurants.
It's fine to complain about crapfood.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
That's healthy narcissism.
Actually, it's not evennarcissism, actually.
That's just simply...
Good practice, you know, butit's an approach to the person
that's horrible.
Okay, so number six,interpersonally exploitative,
takes advantage of others toachieve his or her own ends.
So that's the gaslighting, whichwe'll talk about a bit later
(11:28):
comes in.
So that person will oftenpresent as loving and charming,
but straddled by the need tocollect acolytes and
worshippers.
So adoration, aberration.
I mean, that's true of worldleaders, political party
leaders, common CEOs, surgeons,you know, people who...
(11:51):
They're going to see a lot ofnarcissists.
Absolutely, absolutely.
They're not all narcissists,that's not fair.
But there is going to be astrong, even if it's a healthy,
sense of narcissism in thosepeople.
It might surprise you to knowthat at the bottom, at the
inside of the narcissisticperson, is very low self-esteem.
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
A
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
bit like Humpty Dumpty, sat on a wall, had a
great fall, all his eggshellbroke.
So they're an eggshell thing.
It doesn't seem like it.
That's not how they present.
But they're very, very sensitiveto criticism.
That's the other thing.
If you're living with somebodywho cannot take criticism, and I
hear it in my practice when Iwork with couples, you can feel
(12:32):
it, the shame.
And I encourage in my practicecouples just to kind of stay
with being curious and seeing ifthey can move out of blame and
shame.
But it's very painful.
The narcissist has a lot ofpain.
That's not to say we can excusethe behaviour, but that's what's
(12:53):
going on.
So that very low self-esteem isenacted by a bottomless need for
affirmation of worship.
And the other person in therelationship often feels lost,
invisible, not heard,dehumanised and reduced.
I get quite a lot of thoseclients who don't know what's
going on.
They actually feel like, is itme?
(13:13):
Is it him?
Maybe I don't work hard enough.
If I tried harder, I don't knowhow to please her or him.
Big one here, which youmentioned earlier, Jane, lacks
genuine empathy.
This is number seven.
So can perform, in my view,could perform it or wear it as a
mask.
I'm a great guy, girl.
I really care about you.
(13:34):
But is unwilling or finds itdifficult to recognize or
identify with the desires offeelings, subjective
experiences, and these andothers are different from his or
her own.
That's a performance.
So many narcissists say, I'mvery empathic, but you kind of
feel like it's not real, and notreally.
(13:55):
A really good example of that isactually women who say to me,
you know, he comes home and hedoes this big performance in
front of the kids.
I love you, lovely to see you.
And then as soon as they're outthe door, he says, why haven't
you tied it up?
My lipstick's there.
I call it Mr.
Mr.
Bit.
You know, you missed a bit ofthe painting on the ceiling you
(14:18):
were meant to do.
So it's performance.
You know, like the CEO who'severybody's adored boss and then
comes home and kicks the dog orhis wife physically or mentally.
And she might do it too.
Yeah.
So number eight is often enviousof others or believes others are
envious of him or her.
(14:40):
And number nine, obviously,shows arrogant, haughty or
arrogant behaviours orattitudes.
So it's quite an array.
And in terms of psychiatricdiagnosis, if somebody had five
or more of those, even justfive, they would be considered
(15:01):
as having some degree ofnarcissistic personality.
UNKNOWN (15:05):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
And so that pulls on to my next question, which is,
what sort of problems andbishubs come up in relationships
where one person's a narcissistor maybe two, they both have an
element of narcissism?
Well, yeah, I mean, you havegot...
What sort of issues?
Yeah.
Often it's that the person whopresents to me is living with
(15:30):
somebody whose behaviour theysay is impossible.
He shouts, he's...
or she...
I'm going to say a he because itis more common, but it's not a
diagnosis that is applicablejust to men.
But we'll say he, and I hopenobody is going to shout at me
for that.
So he's demanding.
He's selfish.
(15:50):
He does what he wants.
He doesn't listen to me.
I feel invisible.
I feel invisible.
I feel invisible.
That's awful what people say.
I don't feel I exist.
My opinions don't count.
I ask him if he will please dothis with the children with me.
He won't.
He does it this way.
And then he blames me.
I think a lot of, one of thecenters is that the person who
(16:12):
is not on the narcissisticspectrum, but may have a kind of
unstable personality, which isoften a match a kind of echo
often i say to kind of somethinglike can you tell me why you
don't challenge that behavior imean i say in some way well i'm
scared to or there's no point orhe'll just have a or she and
(16:32):
it's just more men womenactually well she'll walk out
she'll cry or in extremecircumstances um trying to kill
herself so people getmanipulated and It's a sort of
control to stick around.
And I suppose it's boundaries,isn't it?
(16:52):
Totally boundaries, yeah.
If you're in a relationshipwhere you feel alone and you're
not being cared or listened to,it's sort of setting boundaries
about...
How you want to be treated andhow you treat...
Absolutely.
But to do that, Jane, you say itand I say it, and maybe Emma in
(17:16):
the room who's doing therecording will say it.
Well, I can do that.
I can do that because you can dothat, Jane.
Because I think we have a goodenough sense of ourself of what
we're entitled to in arelationship.
Everyone's entitled to mutualrespect, kind of the charter
of...
human rights would say that youknow so creating boundaries for
(17:39):
someone who doesn't know how todo that is quite difficult and
often they're the people that isee in
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
therapy
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
they don't know how to do it they're frightened of
saying now often that'shistorical from their own
upbringing blah blah blah butthat is very very important that
if you're going to if you'regoing to live with somebody with
these characteristics you haveto be able to find your no And
that sometimes is the value thatthey may get from therapy.
(18:06):
I need to find my no, whichmeans putting on your big girls'
pants and big seatbelt and ahard hat and facing up.
It's a bit like the playgroundbully.
It's bullying behaviour.
Yeah.
But I suppose quite oftennarcissists can be quite
charming.
Oh, totally.
And provide a very, very loving,especially at the beginning.
(18:28):
Yes, and you can end up beingvery confused in a relationship
like that because you're sort ofenveloped in love and gifts and
exciting things to do and thensuddenly You're being criticised
and you don't know where youare.
Absolutely.
Being told, well, no, I didn'tdo that.
(18:50):
It's your fault.
You did that.
Yes.
That's called gaslighting.
So that's a very common thingthat happens.
And you're absolutely rightabout confusion.
That is a lot of what peoplecome to therapy with, which is,
I don't quite know why I'm here.
but it's to do with my marriage,and I do feel really confused.
My husband is so amazing.
(19:11):
Wow.
Sometimes.
And all the things you've saidquickly cycle between idealising
me and bringing me gifts.
Not that I personally as Karenbelieve that bringing gifts is
particularly a sign of love,it's just a sign of being able
to afford it.
Unless it's something verymodest, like maybe a bunch of
daffodils is nice, you know, youdon't need diamond rings.
(19:32):
It may be revealed when I talkto a person who comes to see me
that they're in a relationshipwith a narcissist that's a male
or a female because a consistentstory is but he or she can be so
amazing you know so kind soloving and then very quickly as
soon as i do something he or shedoesn't like they are mean
(19:55):
they're nasty they're spitefulthey threaten me I mean, that
could be with actual violence orthreatening to take the kids
away from me.
I have so many women clients whohave said, I can't leave my
husband because I'm frightenedof what he will do.
I always say, what do you thinkhe can do?
You know, you have the law onyour side.
(20:16):
I always...
say that.
I say, you'll hide money.
I say, I know solicitors,
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
you
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
and others, who they won't hide money.
It might be difficult to trackit down, but they can't hide
money.
I think when you're in a longrelationship and maybe you've
grown up together and thatperson becomes the oracle really
as to your world view.
He interprets the world aroundyou and he's got All these
(20:46):
friends that are his, really,because he's approved of these
relationships.
And sometimes it's verydifficult for a person who's
married to somebody like that tosort of have a proper idea of
their own self and what's betterand worse when they're in it.
such a relationship yeah and myjob is also to really help
(21:07):
people to take responsibilityfor their part you know people
choose to stay in relationshipsand I don't personally have a
value of whether they should orthey shouldn't it's not my it's
not my role but I think it'simportant that each partner
including the partner I dooccasionally get people who are
narcissistic I mean I do it'sjust they don't stay in therapy
very long they get a little bitof what they need they don't
(21:29):
want to go very deep and as soonas I or a another colleague
maybe presses on a raw edge thatactivates shame they basically
disappear they don't want tocontinue so No true narcissist
will stay in therapy for a longtime, that's for sure.
So anyone who suddenly says tome, I'm worried I'm a narcissist
(21:50):
who's been in therapy with mefor two years, I say, that
really isn't true.
You've got some components, sodo I.
So we will all have some, butwe're not a narcissist.
Sometimes people say to me, agood thing about a narcissist is
that they are not great attaking responsibility for things
and when you confront them andsay well you did that and they
(22:11):
say no I didn't you did it yesyou know they're always right
and you're always wrong I don'tknow whether that's an element
yeah that now has a become arather frequently used term,
which is gaslighting.
So shall I just explain whatthat is?
Because people use it.
(22:32):
Gaslighting, as we understandit, is when a partner denies his
responsibility for something.
It could be really small.
like putting out the rubbish anddenies that it was his job and
says, no, that was you.
No, you said you'd do it.
You always do this to me.
You always, this is thenarcissist.
You always blame him.
The other person is saying, no,I'm not, but this was your
(22:56):
responsibility.
But why do you do all that?
Blah, blah, blah.
So there's a constant feeling oflike you've been captured by the
KGB or something and spunaround.
You don't know where you are.
Does that explain gaslightingenough to you?
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
because a lot of people come in and say, I've
been reading about gaslighting,I think my husband gaslights me,
or my wife gaslights me.
But this is where this securesense of self comes in, which is
what I try and help people with.
Is it possible to assist peoplein narcissistic relationships to
find their best self?
(23:31):
Good question, really goodquestion.
Sometimes.
Pardon?
Um...
And what happens is they do,they grow and they get more
aware, but then they have anissue, what do I do?
Which is, well, you have achoice.
You can stay in the relationshipand do nothing.
You can stay in the relationshipand confront, which would be a
(23:55):
great option if you also lovethis person.
You know, this person is greatsometimes, got a nice life
together, you've got kids.
Well, I don't think I could dothat.
Or you leave.
Well, I don't think I can dothat either.
So it's quite tricky work.
It's a long-term world.
I suppose an analysis of what'sgoing on then.
Yeah.
(24:15):
could sometimes help people torecognise when that idea is...
Yes, yes.
I can't demonstrate it becausewe're on a voice podcast, but I
do some exercises, actualphysical things, using a soft
toy, which I chuck at theperson, or they chuck back,
which represents the thought orthe accusation that the
(24:38):
narcissist person is making.
And I encourage that person tothrow that soft toy back at me
with...
That is not true.
I will not tolerate you talkingto me in that way.
Now, to many people, that is sofrightening to say, because
you're saying, I, as in theperson who's in a relationship
with you, will not tolerate thissaying.
(24:59):
I won't tolerate this saying.
People do need to find a voice.
And it's not just women, it'smen too, who always say,
difficult women.
Female narcissists tend todisplay a little bit
differently, but that can oftenbe a total preoccupation with
the body.
(25:20):
You know, controlling foodintake, not attention to, you
know, face and bodyrepresentations.
I mean, that's very common insociety anyway.
Apart from working withindividuals about finding their
own sense of self and placinghealthy boundaries and being
(25:42):
able to say no, I'd prefer ifyou did something differently
and this is what I would like tohappen.
I have to say, though, If yousay, I prefer, that's not going
to cut it.
No.
You know, you have to be reallyexplicit.
Like, I want, I need, this iswhat it's like for me being with
(26:05):
you.
I would like you to be curiousabout what happens for me when
you do this.
I mean, sometimes it works.
It depends on the person.
Sometimes it is just notaccepted.
And often, one of the reasonswhy people are scared of coming
to seek the advice of you, Jane,as head of family law, or
adolescents or other lawyers isbecause they have been told
(26:30):
they're mad.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
They're
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
frightened of losing their children.
I have been told that so manytimes.
I've said, I will write you adocument, if need be, that you
are not mad.
Yeah.
He says, I'm an unfit mother.
All kinds of stuff.
You know this.
Very, very abusive.
And so quite often I'll speak topeople who explain, for example,
(26:53):
how they were on their financesduring the marriage and that
their husband has been verycontrolling about finances.
And that may be for very...
for reasons.
He may have been the only one togo out to work and the woman may
have been at home.
Very joint choices.
But then she won't have anyknowledge about any of the bills
(27:14):
or how much it's cost.
Or she may have to ask formoney.
Have sleep money and bedeliberately left out of any
ability to pay for thingsherself.
I think that's normal becausethat's how her marriage has
always been.
And she probably doesn'tspeak...
frankly to friends if she hasany and it's only when we have a
(27:35):
discussion about that that sherealises that actually she's
been in a very sort ofcontrolling relationship and
it's not normal not to haveaccess to money and to be able
to find I mean by that I don'tmean that we all all entitled to
yeah lots of money yeah youshould be able to fund things
(27:56):
without having to ask you knowpeople sometimes come to to us
as to course lawyers to explainabout what their life is like
but they don't have anyrealization that actually their
experience is not a normalexperience it's it's it's rather
odd but they've never ever had aconversation with anyone before
yeah about it and they have yeahthey have a really poor sense of
(28:18):
self i absolutely quite quiteoften and they're quite isolated
yes they have a lack of sense ofentitlement yeah yeah i i
sometimes say to clients orfemales particularly hey you
need to bring out your diva andthey laugh but i say no i mean
it you know you need to find adiva even a little bit of a
(28:40):
deeper inside.
You can begin to say, no, Idon't like it this way anymore.
It's a really good example ofwhat you've just said, Jane,
about how to begin to create adifferent kind of boundary,
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
which
SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
is to push back and to say, I've been reflecting
that I want to be more involvedin our finances.
Of course, that may well bekicked back in your face in some
and twisted as to make you whatyou don't trust me I never
thought you didn't.
We've always died this way.
We've always died this way.
What's the most who you've beentalking to?
(29:16):
Sometimes those people don't saythey're coming to therapy
either.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Or
SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
if they do, they'll find a way of totally
discounting the therapist, ofcourse.
Yes.
What's it like for you?
When relationships break downand they've decided that
actually the way that they'vebeen feeling is because...
of the personality traits oftheir partner that they find
(29:40):
really quite insurmountablydifficult to tolerate anymore.
Because I think sometimes whenwe age, it becomes more
difficult to tolerate thingsthat perhaps are true.
We become different peoplesometimes, don't we?
but when people come to us andtheir relationship has broken
(30:00):
down firstly I think sometimeswe notice it's really difficult
to leave
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
a
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
marriage when you've been with a narcissist or
somebody who's been verycontrolling and you know
sometimes instruct you and thenthey'll reconcile with her
husband and then maybe two yearslater come back and say well it
didn't work out I'm going toinstruct you again and that's
the tension and to-ing andfro-ing and I think sometimes
(30:28):
the narcissist can't bear to beleft.
And they'll do anything toseduce the person back.
Seduce probably is not the wrongword.
Well, it is ties the personback.
Then it just becomes too hardand just really difficult to
leave a person who's being kindand nice, especially in that
moment.
Yeah, it's very, very, veryhard.
(30:49):
And those people, I mean, that'scodependency you're talking
about.
So the partner who is not...
who we may not categorize as thenarcissist, actually may have
narcissistic qualities of theirown.
In other words, they may be kindof hanging on the coattails as
the other partless narcissist,if you like, you know, greatness
by proxy or something.
(31:11):
My job is to help people tobecome self-aware of their part
in the codependency and then todecide authentically whether
they want to stay with that ornot.
Because of course, you know, wehave choices.
I always say to people, youknow, Have you got a brain
injury?
No.
Have you been diagnosed withpsychosis?
No, no, no.
(31:31):
Well, then you have A to C.
Oh, no, yeah, cool.
Make your own mind up.
Make your own mind up, yeah.
So you're talking about thatgame of I hate you, don't leave
me.
Yes.
That partners can't do.
And it brings us back to whatyou alluded to earlier, or you
stated, which is the fear ofabandonment.
But both parties will have thatfear of abandonment.
(31:53):
Otherwise, it would be easier toleave.
UNKNOWN (31:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
Both parties are frightened of what will happen.
The narcissist will lose hisecho, his adoring one,
SPEAKER_01 (32:04):
and
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
the adoring one...
The perception of what peoplethink.
Absolutely, all of that's reallyimportant.
And the echo who has put him orherself in this passive position
will...
start from a position ofhelplessness I mean I have said
people people and they mighthave said it too I don't know
(32:25):
how I'd cope I don't know whatto do I don't know what the
future looks like well yeah truenobody does yeah nobody knows
what the future looks like yeahactually but you're absolutely
right it's very very difficultto untangle that and quite often
we have Increasing situations ofstalking and bugging people
(32:48):
either in the house or your CCTVcameras, trackers in cars,
bugging telephones, cameras inbedrooms, in the house, so that
when the passers-by are at thehouse, they can find out what's
going on.
Hacking into a computer, eitherprivate or emails or rifling
(33:14):
through private documents tolocate, you know, blown
boundaries.
You know, this is my house,everything in it's mine and
there's no respect.
Sometimes it can creep intopersonal violence and the police
are involved or the police arecalled as a threat.
(33:34):
Yes.
to, yeah, so you do this to me,I'm going to call the police,
and then you end up in a cellovernight.
Come across that, and threatento take away the children, or
do.
Take possessions away, cars awaywithout any explanation.
Or leave you without money,without any access to money.
So that you're forced to make anapplication to the court for
(33:58):
financial assistance, really.
Those are sorts of issues thatwe have.
And it's very frightening forsomebody who may have given up
their career.
Those are very successful menand they haven't worked for
ages.
And then it's the prospect of,what can I do with the rest of
my life in terms of, can I getsome qualifications or find a
(34:21):
job I haven't worked for years?
UNKNOWN (34:23):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (34:23):
And they need lots of support with that sort of
journey in terms of not justtherapy, but helping them with
their finances as well.
And being a sole parent is quitedifficult when you're still
parenting with a narcissist, ifyou're being criticized about
parenting skills constantly,which must be very, very
difficult.
And quite often we end up incourt.
(34:47):
Yes.
in relation to contestedchildren applications or
financial applications, becausethere's that sort of, there's
one person who just wants to winat all costs, regardless of
whether there are childreninvolved in welfare, which is
secondary to the whole raisond'etre of a narcissist who just
(35:12):
thinks about self, really.
What you've been describing...
That is a very common thing thatwomen do who have some
narcissistic traits or more thanthat, that they will threaten To
take the children away.
And that's why, I mean, you maycorrect me on this if I'm wrong,
because I may well be wrong,that I think most divorces are
(35:35):
instigated by women.
Yes.
And that's because men arefrightened of losing their
children.
And I know that because of theamount of men I see.
Well, I don't want to leave herbecause she won't let me see the
kids.
I say again, but you have thelaw to protect you.
The law doesn't protect men.
I don't know whether that's trueor not, but I don't think
there's any evidence for that.
No, I think the law is there toprotect men.
(35:57):
It's just that the court takes ahuge amount of time to list even
the furthest hearing.
And so this is a situation wherewe have a mother with the
children who's been quitedifficult, slowing time with
dad.
And dad thinks...
If I argue with her about this,she's just going to make it
(36:19):
worse.
Exactly.
And so he goes along with itwithout issuing court
proceedings.
So by the time a client comes tosee you to complain about this,
it's already been maybe sixmonths, a year, and the line
exists.
Yeah.
And not being able to see thechildren very much.
And then it takes a long time toget to court.
Yeah.
And it's very difficult then toredress the balance.
(36:40):
But the courts are very much infavour of...
Both parents having time withtheir children And, you know,
parents can be extremelydamaging to their children when
they're bad-mouthing of thechildren, having inappropriate
conversations.
You have to be very, verycareful when you're leaving a
very upsetting relationship withyour partner that they're still
(37:02):
the parent of that child.
It's so depressing when you seethem love both parents.
And of course they do, and theyshould be able to love freely.
That tendency, without, youknow, you can't really
characterise men and womencompletely one way or the other,
but there's a tendency of womento do the giant threat and at
(37:23):
the very worst make falseaccusations of sexual
inappropriate behaviour to thechildren, which of course then
could be years in sorting thatone out in the course from maybe
not years, but a long time.
It's so depressing when thathappens.
Especially if it's true, it's adifferent message, but often
(37:44):
it's not.
No, it can be an extremedungeon.
And that's coercive control.
Yeah, they'll say that's adifferent kind of coercive
control.
Yeah.
You know, threatening to dosomething damaging to that
father if he dares to leave.
So this is a female sort ofnarcissism.
(38:04):
Can we read something from thebook that I think is...
always struck me about what loveis.
So this is a book by SusanForwood called Toxic Parents.
This is not about toxic parents.
It's about just a general thing.
So she writes, loving behaviordoesn't grind you down, keep you
(38:25):
off balance or create feelingsof self-hatred.
Love doesn't hurt.
It feels good.
Loving behavior nourishes youremotional well-being.
When someone is being loving toyou, you feel accepted, cared
for, valued, and respected.
Genuine love creates feelings ofwarmth, pleasure, safety,
stability, and inner peace.
(38:47):
So I would go with all of that.
Now, that's not to say that allof us, every second or hour or
even year of our marriage arealways amazing and wonderful to
each other.
People have patches when it'snot so good.
But I think the essence thereis...
that if you don't feelrespected, if you feel
frightened, if you don't feelequal, if you don't feel you
(39:09):
have an equal say in what goeson in what kind of day, then you
are likely to be in arelationship with somebody who
has considerable qualities ofnarcissism.
You have experience of dealingwith people who come to you
about feeling very unhappy inmarriage when they've been
(39:31):
either married to a narcissistor been in an abusive
relationship we work with themin relation to trying to find
boundaries and respectingthemselves and that sometimes
could be quite a long journeyand analysing what's going on in
their marriage in terms of if Ido this X will happen to redress
(39:53):
that problem And in my work,because I'm a psychotherapist,
we or I, people, colleagues ofmine, we will help clients also
to look to their earlyexperiences, childhood
influences, which have helped orcontributed to who they are
today with a view to makingchanges to the future.
(40:16):
Because my view is you live howyou want, you stay with who you
want to stay with.
It's not...
not my business to tell someoneto leave the hospital.
Occasionally, I have pretty muchsaid that if somebody is being
violent and I think their lifeis a danger.
Well, thank you very much.
You're very welcome.
(40:36):
Talking about, to bring upanother citizen in particular
today, but that was reallyinteresting.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Hello, my name is Jane Tenquist and welcome to my
family podcast.
Today, our guest is KarenBlumenfeld, who is the
co-founder of Hale TherapyCentre and is a psychotherapist.
She sees couples in relationshipcounselling and she also sees
individuals for personaltherapy.
(00:36):
Today, the topic of the podcastis therapy.
narcissism and coercive controland helps that Karen can provide
couples and individuals whobelieve that those issues are
affecting their relationship andI will talk about those themes
that I encounter as a divorcesolicitor.
(01:05):
Hello Karen, welcome.
Today we have Karen Blumenfeldwho is the co-founder of Hale
Village Therapy Centre.
She's a very dear friend of minetoo.
Thank you Jane.
Quite often as a divorce lawyerI come across people who
complain that their spouse is anarcissist or that they've been
in a coercive, contrivingrelationship.
(01:28):
And it seems to be a commontheme running through many
contemporary divorces and I waswondering whether you also have
people coming to see you as apsychotherapist for counselling
either as couples or privateindividuals to talk about the
(01:49):
issues that they have withintheir marriages caused by either
narcissism or coercive control Iwas wondering whether there is
such a thing as narcissism Goodquestion.
Okay, it's a very casuallybanded about word now to
(02:11):
describe a whole set ofcharacteristics, most of which
are negative.
In fact, one of usually whichare considered negative.
So it's the name given tocertain personality traits and
stems originally from the myth,the Greek myth, Narcissus, who
falls in love with hisreflection.
It was a he, but it could be ashe.
(02:32):
and that was his echo.
And so essentially he fell inlove with his own reflection and
it's come to mean an excessivefocus on oneself at the
exclusion of others and often atthe expense of others.
So the focus is self and thatperson comes across as selfish,
(02:52):
demanding, entitled andgenerally difficult to live
with.
I suppose we can all benarcissists to a certain extent.
Don't you think?
So there's a bit reallyimportant actually in this bit.
UNKNOWN (03:05):
So...
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
There is a spectrum.
I'm going with my hands in a bighorizontal line from completely
healthy narcissist, which I'llexplain, to what we would call
narcissistic personalitydisorder, which has a set of
about nine factorsdiagnostically.
And if you have seven of those,you will possibly have this
disorder.
(03:26):
But most people we meet havenarcissistic traits.
So I'm not really talking aboutvery extreme people who you'd
never see in therapy.
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
but you might get them as your clients, which
maybe will come to you later.
So healthy narcissism reallyvery basically means the
capacity to say no or yes.
authentically so not to becoerced or persuaded or to
please somebody but to say yes iwould like to do that or no i
(03:55):
can't do that so that's a realsignificant example of healthy
narcissism so we might call it asecure sense of self difficult
thing to describe what a self isit's a sort of intuitive
instinctive grounding in selfthat No, I can't do that.
So even on a very, very simplelevel, we arranged for me to
(04:15):
come in at 11.30.
I realised that was going to betight for me.
I realised that was going to betight for me.
I asked you whether we can do itat 12.
You don't take offence or have astrop because I'm not doing what
you want.
You said, yeah, sure.
Maybe you had to move somethingto adjust to my time.
But we did that together.
(04:37):
So that is a healthy thing.
process so largely what weexperience when we meet somebody
is a sense of entitlement and wesee the display of arrogant or
dismissive behaviors dismissingand disregarding the rules that
apply to others parking parkingwhere there there's no parking
(04:59):
because they have a big bigextensive car they think doesn't
matter i can pay the parkingfine the fact that the car is on
a double yellow line on the bendis not important to that person.
His or her need to be quick andget into that shot quickly or
out is the most important thing.
There are different types ofnarcissistic presentation.
So we kind of know we're in theprocess of some narcissistic
(05:23):
types because we can feelscared, nervous, apprehensive.
I know when I'm about to see aparticular kind of client, and
it can be female or male.
I feel I have to put a seatbelton and a bit of a hard hat and
breathe and really ground myselfbecause as easy as that person
has come to me because theythink I'm great, I can be
(05:45):
devalued.
So that's one very essentialingredient of what happens in
these relationships, that thenarcissistically orientated
person seduces or can entrap.
physically seduced orpsychologically seduced,
emotionally seduced, withcompliments and chattery.
(06:06):
So bloodbombing is taughtnowadays, romantically.
And so that person's drawn in,it feels amazing.
And echoes are attracted tonarcissists.
I mean, this is a broadbrushstroke here, but there are
certain...
types of personality who areattracted to a narcissistic type
of person yeah and so there's avery unhealthy co-dependence
(06:27):
that might develop um thesepeople called echoes they called
them echoes yeah yeah in otherwords you mirror that person,
provided you're mirroring thatperson perfectly.
It's all brilliant, it's allamazing.
But as soon as you say no, soyou start, that person begins to
get some agency.
Maybe they've had enough ofthis, or enough of the person's
(06:49):
behavior.
As soon as that person starts tosay no, then as quickly as, say,
you're a love bomb, they can bedevalued.
And you know that as asolicitor, a lawyer, and
probably as a therapist, thatyou can feel that shift If you
challenge.
But my job is to challenge.
And to some extent yours is aswell.
(07:10):
They're paying you for a serviceand they're paying me for a
service.
I think this excessive focus onself is the thing that mainly
defines how we might see thatpresentation.
So by sense of entitlement, itshows they could disregard a
person's feelings and feel sortof a lack of empathy.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
(07:31):
One of the classic...
presentations I've seen incampus therapy is seeing one
person, sometimes each of themdoing it, completely dismissing
or disregarding what it must be,what it must feel like to be the
other person.
So in psychotherapy, we call ita theory of mind, the idea that
there are two minds in the room,your mind, Jane, and my mind,
(07:53):
Karen.
I know I'm not you, you are notme, and we could disagree, and
hopefully, because we like eachother anyway, have not the
argument, and we'd be reallygood together, and actually
deepen the friendship.
And the people can do that inmarriages if they can deepen
their understanding and listenwith open ears.
then there will be a lot fewerbreakups.
(08:15):
But a narcissistic person cannotor will not or chooses not to do
that.
It's like if you draw a bigcircle, in that circle is just
the narcissistic person.
Everybody else is a projectedtool, an object, a player.
to move around on a chessboard.
(08:35):
Whereas with people who are notlike that, there are two
balloons next to each other.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
They're
SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
separate.
There's interdependence andinter-relativity.
But with a narcissist, there'sonly his or her world.
And I'm using my hands todescribe it.
I'm making circles with myhands, balloons.
So it's very challenging to livewith someone like that because
in a sense, you can't have atrue relationship with somebody
(09:02):
who doesn't actually acknowledgeyour existence as a separate
entity.
So I suppose true narcissistsdon't often end up in
counseling.
They don't.
Because they don't.
Oh, absolutely not.
It's quite challenging for themto actually self-reflect and
think that they're wrong.
Absolutely.
That would make them feeluncomfortable.
Yeah.
I mean, in reality, somebodyonly kind of really...
(09:27):
sharp-handed narcissist andbeing personality disordering.
So these are diagnosticcriteria, criteria for
personality disorder.
And most people will have, ifthey are highly narcissistic,
will have maybe at least five ofthese.
There are some people who haveall of them.
(09:48):
So here are the nine points.
Grandiosis of self-importance,exaggerated achievements, and
expects to be recognised assuperior in commensurate with
actual achievements.
I think that's really important.
So they're boastful, theyoverstate, they overpromise.
Preoccupied with fantasies ofunlimited success, power,
(10:10):
brilliance or ideal love.
So lots of imaginings of whothey could be, who they are, who
they would love to be with.
A belief that they're specialand unique and should associate
with other people.
such special or beautiful peopleso the kind of arm candy bit bit
(10:31):
making sure your husband or wifeis beautiful looks good on your
arm requires excessiveadmiration in bracket i might
get that if i had a gorgeouswoman man on my arm says
entitlement which we've talkedabout the rules that apply to
others don't apply to me expectsautomatic compliance with wishes
or expectations and imperiouswith the people that they assume
(10:54):
to be subordinate.
So it could be a waiter.
You know, that horrible behavioryou see sometimes.
In restaurants.
In restaurants.
It's fine to complain about crapfood.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
That's healthy narcissism.
Actually, it's not evennarcissism, actually.
That's just simply...
Good practice, you know, butit's an approach to the person
that's horrible.
Okay, so number six,interpersonally exploitative,
takes advantage of others toachieve his or her own ends.
So that's the gaslighting, whichwe'll talk about a bit later
(11:28):
comes in.
So that person will oftenpresent as loving and charming,
but straddled by the need tocollect acolytes and
worshippers.
So adoration, aberration.
I mean, that's true of worldleaders, political party
leaders, common CEOs, surgeons,you know, people who...
(11:51):
They're going to see a lot ofnarcissists.
Absolutely, absolutely.
They're not all narcissists,that's not fair.
But there is going to be astrong, even if it's a healthy,
sense of narcissism in thosepeople.
It might surprise you to knowthat at the bottom, at the
inside of the narcissisticperson, is very low self-esteem.
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
A
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
bit like Humpty Dumpty, sat on a wall, had a
great fall, all his eggshellbroke.
So they're an eggshell thing.
It doesn't seem like it.
That's not how they present.
But they're very, very sensitiveto criticism.
That's the other thing.
If you're living with somebodywho cannot take criticism, and I
hear it in my practice when Iwork with couples, you can feel
(12:32):
it, the shame.
And I encourage in my practicecouples just to kind of stay
with being curious and seeing ifthey can move out of blame and
shame.
But it's very painful.
The narcissist has a lot ofpain.
That's not to say we can excusethe behaviour, but that's what's
(12:53):
going on.
So that very low self-esteem isenacted by a bottomless need for
affirmation of worship.
And the other person in therelationship often feels lost,
invisible, not heard,dehumanised and reduced.
I get quite a lot of thoseclients who don't know what's
going on.
They actually feel like, is itme?
(13:13):
Is it him?
Maybe I don't work hard enough.
If I tried harder, I don't knowhow to please her or him.
Big one here, which youmentioned earlier, Jane, lacks
genuine empathy.
This is number seven.
So can perform, in my view,could perform it or wear it as a
mask.
I'm a great guy, girl.
I really care about you.
(13:34):
But is unwilling or finds itdifficult to recognize or
identify with the desires offeelings, subjective
experiences, and these andothers are different from his or
her own.
That's a performance.
So many narcissists say, I'mvery empathic, but you kind of
feel like it's not real, and notreally.
(13:55):
A really good example of that isactually women who say to me,
you know, he comes home and hedoes this big performance in
front of the kids.
I love you, lovely to see you.
And then as soon as they're outthe door, he says, why haven't
you tied it up?
My lipstick's there.
I call it Mr.
Mr.
Bit.
You know, you missed a bit ofthe painting on the ceiling you
(14:18):
were meant to do.
So it's performance.
You know, like the CEO who'severybody's adored boss and then
comes home and kicks the dog orhis wife physically or mentally.
And she might do it too.
Yeah.
So number eight is often enviousof others or believes others are
envious of him or her.
(14:40):
And number nine, obviously,shows arrogant, haughty or
arrogant behaviours orattitudes.
So it's quite an array.
And in terms of psychiatricdiagnosis, if somebody had five
or more of those, even justfive, they would be considered
(15:01):
as having some degree ofnarcissistic personality.
UNKNOWN (15:05):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
And so that pulls on to my next question, which is,
what sort of problems andbishubs come up in relationships
where one person's a narcissistor maybe two, they both have an
element of narcissism?
Well, yeah, I mean, you havegot...
What sort of issues?
Yeah.
Often it's that the person whopresents to me is living with
(15:30):
somebody whose behaviour theysay is impossible.
He shouts, he's...
or she...
I'm going to say a he because itis more common, but it's not a
diagnosis that is applicablejust to men.
But we'll say he, and I hopenobody is going to shout at me
for that.
So he's demanding.
He's selfish.
(15:50):
He does what he wants.
He doesn't listen to me.
I feel invisible.
I feel invisible.
I feel invisible.
That's awful what people say.
I don't feel I exist.
My opinions don't count.
I ask him if he will please dothis with the children with me.
He won't.
He does it this way.
And then he blames me.
I think a lot of, one of thecenters is that the person who
(16:12):
is not on the narcissisticspectrum, but may have a kind of
unstable personality, which isoften a match a kind of echo
often i say to kind of somethinglike can you tell me why you
don't challenge that behavior imean i say in some way well i'm
scared to or there's no point orhe'll just have a or she and
(16:32):
it's just more men womenactually well she'll walk out
she'll cry or in extremecircumstances um trying to kill
herself so people getmanipulated and It's a sort of
control to stick around.
And I suppose it's boundaries,isn't it?
(16:52):
Totally boundaries, yeah.
If you're in a relationshipwhere you feel alone and you're
not being cared or listened to,it's sort of setting boundaries
about...
How you want to be treated andhow you treat...
Absolutely.
But to do that, Jane, you say itand I say it, and maybe Emma in
(17:16):
the room who's doing therecording will say it.
Well, I can do that.
I can do that because you can dothat, Jane.
Because I think we have a goodenough sense of ourself of what
we're entitled to in arelationship.
Everyone's entitled to mutualrespect, kind of the charter
of...
human rights would say that youknow so creating boundaries for
(17:39):
someone who doesn't know how todo that is quite difficult and
often they're the people that isee in
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
therapy
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
they don't know how to do it they're frightened of
saying now often that'shistorical from their own
upbringing blah blah blah butthat is very very important that
if you're going to if you'regoing to live with somebody with
these characteristics you haveto be able to find your no And
that sometimes is the value thatthey may get from therapy.
(18:06):
I need to find my no, whichmeans putting on your big girls'
pants and big seatbelt and ahard hat and facing up.
It's a bit like the playgroundbully.
It's bullying behaviour.
Yeah.
But I suppose quite oftennarcissists can be quite
charming.
Oh, totally.
And provide a very, very loving,especially at the beginning.
(18:28):
Yes, and you can end up beingvery confused in a relationship
like that because you're sort ofenveloped in love and gifts and
exciting things to do and thensuddenly You're being criticised
and you don't know where youare.
Absolutely.
Being told, well, no, I didn'tdo that.
(18:50):
It's your fault.
You did that.
Yes.
That's called gaslighting.
So that's a very common thingthat happens.
And you're absolutely rightabout confusion.
That is a lot of what peoplecome to therapy with, which is,
I don't quite know why I'm here.
but it's to do with my marriage,and I do feel really confused.
My husband is so amazing.
(19:11):
Wow.
Sometimes.
And all the things you've saidquickly cycle between idealising
me and bringing me gifts.
Not that I personally as Karenbelieve that bringing gifts is
particularly a sign of love,it's just a sign of being able
to afford it.
Unless it's something verymodest, like maybe a bunch of
daffodils is nice, you know, youdon't need diamond rings.
(19:32):
It may be revealed when I talkto a person who comes to see me
that they're in a relationshipwith a narcissist that's a male
or a female because a consistentstory is but he or she can be so
amazing you know so kind soloving and then very quickly as
soon as i do something he or shedoesn't like they are mean
(19:55):
they're nasty they're spitefulthey threaten me I mean, that
could be with actual violence orthreatening to take the kids
away from me.
I have so many women clients whohave said, I can't leave my
husband because I'm frightenedof what he will do.
I always say, what do you thinkhe can do?
You know, you have the law onyour side.
(20:16):
I always...
say that.
I say, you'll hide money.
I say, I know solicitors,
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
you
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
and others, who they won't hide money.
It might be difficult to trackit down, but they can't hide
money.
I think when you're in a longrelationship and maybe you've
grown up together and thatperson becomes the oracle really
as to your world view.
He interprets the world aroundyou and he's got All these
(20:46):
friends that are his, really,because he's approved of these
relationships.
And sometimes it's verydifficult for a person who's
married to somebody like that tosort of have a proper idea of
their own self and what's betterand worse when they're in it.
such a relationship yeah and myjob is also to really help
(21:07):
people to take responsibilityfor their part you know people
choose to stay in relationshipsand I don't personally have a
value of whether they should orthey shouldn't it's not my it's
not my role but I think it'simportant that each partner
including the partner I dooccasionally get people who are
narcissistic I mean I do it'sjust they don't stay in therapy
very long they get a little bitof what they need they don't
(21:29):
want to go very deep and as soonas I or a another colleague
maybe presses on a raw edge thatactivates shame they basically
disappear they don't want tocontinue so No true narcissist
will stay in therapy for a longtime, that's for sure.
So anyone who suddenly says tome, I'm worried I'm a narcissist
(21:50):
who's been in therapy with mefor two years, I say, that
really isn't true.
You've got some components, sodo I.
So we will all have some, butwe're not a narcissist.
Sometimes people say to me, agood thing about a narcissist is
that they are not great attaking responsibility for things
and when you confront them andsay well you did that and they
(22:11):
say no I didn't you did it yesyou know they're always right
and you're always wrong I don'tknow whether that's an element
yeah that now has a become arather frequently used term,
which is gaslighting.
So shall I just explain whatthat is?
Because people use it.
(22:32):
Gaslighting, as we understandit, is when a partner denies his
responsibility for something.
It could be really small.
like putting out the rubbish anddenies that it was his job and
says, no, that was you.
No, you said you'd do it.
You always do this to me.
You always, this is thenarcissist.
You always blame him.
The other person is saying, no,I'm not, but this was your
(22:56):
responsibility.
But why do you do all that?
Blah, blah, blah.
So there's a constant feeling oflike you've been captured by the
KGB or something and spunaround.
You don't know where you are.
Does that explain gaslightingenough to you?
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
because a lot of people come in and say, I've
been reading about gaslighting,I think my husband gaslights me,
or my wife gaslights me.
But this is where this securesense of self comes in, which is
what I try and help people with.
Is it possible to assist peoplein narcissistic relationships to
find their best self?
(23:31):
Good question, really goodquestion.
Sometimes.
Pardon?
Um...
And what happens is they do,they grow and they get more
aware, but then they have anissue, what do I do?
Which is, well, you have achoice.
You can stay in the relationshipand do nothing.
You can stay in the relationshipand confront, which would be a
(23:55):
great option if you also lovethis person.
You know, this person is greatsometimes, got a nice life
together, you've got kids.
Well, I don't think I could dothat.
Or you leave.
Well, I don't think I can dothat either.
So it's quite tricky work.
It's a long-term world.
I suppose an analysis of what'sgoing on then.
Yeah.
(24:15):
could sometimes help people torecognise when that idea is...
Yes, yes.
I can't demonstrate it becausewe're on a voice podcast, but I
do some exercises, actualphysical things, using a soft
toy, which I chuck at theperson, or they chuck back,
which represents the thought orthe accusation that the
(24:38):
narcissist person is making.
And I encourage that person tothrow that soft toy back at me
with...
That is not true.
I will not tolerate you talkingto me in that way.
Now, to many people, that is sofrightening to say, because
you're saying, I, as in theperson who's in a relationship
with you, will not tolerate thissaying.
(24:59):
I won't tolerate this saying.
People do need to find a voice.
And it's not just women, it'smen too, who always say,
difficult women.
Female narcissists tend todisplay a little bit
differently, but that can oftenbe a total preoccupation with
the body.
(25:20):
You know, controlling foodintake, not attention to, you
know, face and bodyrepresentations.
I mean, that's very common insociety anyway.
Apart from working withindividuals about finding their
own sense of self and placinghealthy boundaries and being
(25:42):
able to say no, I'd prefer ifyou did something differently
and this is what I would like tohappen.
I have to say, though, If yousay, I prefer, that's not going
to cut it.
No.
You know, you have to be reallyexplicit.
Like, I want, I need, this iswhat it's like for me being with
(26:05):
you.
I would like you to be curiousabout what happens for me when
you do this.
I mean, sometimes it works.
It depends on the person.
Sometimes it is just notaccepted.
And often, one of the reasonswhy people are scared of coming
to seek the advice of you, Jane,as head of family law, or
adolescents or other lawyers isbecause they have been told
(26:30):
they're mad.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
They're
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
frightened of losing their children.
I have been told that so manytimes.
I've said, I will write you adocument, if need be, that you
are not mad.
Yeah.
He says, I'm an unfit mother.
All kinds of stuff.
You know this.
Very, very abusive.
And so quite often I'll speak topeople who explain, for example,
(26:53):
how they were on their financesduring the marriage and that
their husband has been verycontrolling about finances.
And that may be for very...
for reasons.
He may have been the only one togo out to work and the woman may
have been at home.
Very joint choices.
But then she won't have anyknowledge about any of the bills
(27:14):
or how much it's cost.
Or she may have to ask formoney.
Have sleep money and bedeliberately left out of any
ability to pay for thingsherself.
I think that's normal becausethat's how her marriage has
always been.
And she probably doesn'tspeak...
frankly to friends if she hasany and it's only when we have a
(27:35):
discussion about that that sherealises that actually she's
been in a very sort ofcontrolling relationship and
it's not normal not to haveaccess to money and to be able
to find I mean by that I don'tmean that we all all entitled to
yeah lots of money yeah youshould be able to fund things
(27:56):
without having to ask you knowpeople sometimes come to to us
as to course lawyers to explainabout what their life is like
but they don't have anyrealization that actually their
experience is not a normalexperience it's it's it's rather
odd but they've never ever had aconversation with anyone before
yeah about it and they have yeahthey have a really poor sense of
(28:18):
self i absolutely quite quiteoften and they're quite isolated
yes they have a lack of sense ofentitlement yeah yeah i i
sometimes say to clients orfemales particularly hey you
need to bring out your diva andthey laugh but i say no i mean
it you know you need to find adiva even a little bit of a
(28:40):
deeper inside.
You can begin to say, no, Idon't like it this way anymore.
It's a really good example ofwhat you've just said, Jane,
about how to begin to create adifferent kind of boundary,
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
which
SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
is to push back and to say, I've been reflecting
that I want to be more involvedin our finances.
Of course, that may well bekicked back in your face in some
and twisted as to make you whatyou don't trust me I never
thought you didn't.
We've always died this way.
We've always died this way.
What's the most who you've beentalking to?
(29:16):
Sometimes those people don't saythey're coming to therapy
either.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Or
SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
if they do, they'll find a way of totally
discounting the therapist, ofcourse.
Yes.
What's it like for you?
When relationships break downand they've decided that
actually the way that they'vebeen feeling is because...
of the personality traits oftheir partner that they find
(29:40):
really quite insurmountablydifficult to tolerate anymore.
Because I think sometimes whenwe age, it becomes more
difficult to tolerate thingsthat perhaps are true.
We become different peoplesometimes, don't we?
but when people come to us andtheir relationship has broken
(30:00):
down firstly I think sometimeswe notice it's really difficult
to leave
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
a
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
marriage when you've been with a narcissist or
somebody who's been verycontrolling and you know
sometimes instruct you and thenthey'll reconcile with her
husband and then maybe two yearslater come back and say well it
didn't work out I'm going toinstruct you again and that's
the tension and to-ing andfro-ing and I think sometimes
(30:28):
the narcissist can't bear to beleft.
And they'll do anything toseduce the person back.
Seduce probably is not the wrongword.
Well, it is ties the personback.
Then it just becomes too hardand just really difficult to
leave a person who's being kindand nice, especially in that
moment.
Yeah, it's very, very, veryhard.
(30:49):
And those people, I mean, that'scodependency you're talking
about.
So the partner who is not...
who we may not categorize as thenarcissist, actually may have
narcissistic qualities of theirown.
In other words, they may be kindof hanging on the coattails as
the other partless narcissist,if you like, you know, greatness
by proxy or something.
(31:11):
My job is to help people tobecome self-aware of their part
in the codependency and then todecide authentically whether
they want to stay with that ornot.
Because of course, you know, wehave choices.
I always say to people, youknow, Have you got a brain
injury?
No.
Have you been diagnosed withpsychosis?
No, no, no.
(31:31):
Well, then you have A to C.
Oh, no, yeah, cool.
Make your own mind up.
Make your own mind up, yeah.
So you're talking about thatgame of I hate you, don't leave
me.
Yes.
That partners can't do.
And it brings us back to whatyou alluded to earlier, or you
stated, which is the fear ofabandonment.
But both parties will have thatfear of abandonment.
(31:53):
Otherwise, it would be easier toleave.
UNKNOWN (31:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
Both parties are frightened of what will happen.
The narcissist will lose hisecho, his adoring one,
SPEAKER_01 (32:04):
and
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
the adoring one...
The perception of what peoplethink.
Absolutely, all of that's reallyimportant.
And the echo who has put him orherself in this passive position
will...
start from a position ofhelplessness I mean I have said
people people and they mighthave said it too I don't know
(32:25):
how I'd cope I don't know whatto do I don't know what the
future looks like well yeah truenobody does yeah nobody knows
what the future looks like yeahactually but you're absolutely
right it's very very difficultto untangle that and quite often
we have Increasing situations ofstalking and bugging people
(32:48):
either in the house or your CCTVcameras, trackers in cars,
bugging telephones, cameras inbedrooms, in the house, so that
when the passers-by are at thehouse, they can find out what's
going on.
Hacking into a computer, eitherprivate or emails or rifling
(33:14):
through private documents tolocate, you know, blown
boundaries.
You know, this is my house,everything in it's mine and
there's no respect.
Sometimes it can creep intopersonal violence and the police
are involved or the police arecalled as a threat.
(33:34):
Yes.
to, yeah, so you do this to me,I'm going to call the police,
and then you end up in a cellovernight.
Come across that, and threatento take away the children, or
do.
Take possessions away, cars awaywithout any explanation.
Or leave you without money,without any access to money.
So that you're forced to make anapplication to the court for
(33:58):
financial assistance, really.
Those are sorts of issues thatwe have.
And it's very frightening forsomebody who may have given up
their career.
Those are very successful menand they haven't worked for
ages.
And then it's the prospect of,what can I do with the rest of
my life in terms of, can I getsome qualifications or find a
(34:21):
job I haven't worked for years?
UNKNOWN (34:23):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (34:23):
And they need lots of support with that sort of
journey in terms of not justtherapy, but helping them with
their finances as well.
And being a sole parent is quitedifficult when you're still
parenting with a narcissist, ifyou're being criticized about
parenting skills constantly,which must be very, very
difficult.
And quite often we end up incourt.
(34:47):
Yes.
in relation to contestedchildren applications or
financial applications, becausethere's that sort of, there's
one person who just wants to winat all costs, regardless of
whether there are childreninvolved in welfare, which is
secondary to the whole raisond'etre of a narcissist who just
(35:12):
thinks about self, really.
What you've been describing...
That is a very common thing thatwomen do who have some
narcissistic traits or more thanthat, that they will threaten To
take the children away.
And that's why, I mean, you maycorrect me on this if I'm wrong,
because I may well be wrong,that I think most divorces are
(35:35):
instigated by women.
Yes.
And that's because men arefrightened of losing their
children.
And I know that because of theamount of men I see.
Well, I don't want to leave herbecause she won't let me see the
kids.
I say again, but you have thelaw to protect you.
The law doesn't protect men.
I don't know whether that's trueor not, but I don't think
there's any evidence for that.
No, I think the law is there toprotect men.
(35:57):
It's just that the court takes ahuge amount of time to list even
the furthest hearing.
And so this is a situation wherewe have a mother with the
children who's been quitedifficult, slowing time with
dad.
And dad thinks...
If I argue with her about this,she's just going to make it
(36:19):
worse.
Exactly.
And so he goes along with itwithout issuing court
proceedings.
So by the time a client comes tosee you to complain about this,
it's already been maybe sixmonths, a year, and the line
exists.
Yeah.
And not being able to see thechildren very much.
And then it takes a long time toget to court.
Yeah.
And it's very difficult then toredress the balance.
(36:40):
But the courts are very much infavour of...
Both parents having time withtheir children And, you know,
parents can be extremelydamaging to their children when
they're bad-mouthing of thechildren, having inappropriate
conversations.
You have to be very, verycareful when you're leaving a
very upsetting relationship withyour partner that they're still
(37:02):
the parent of that child.
It's so depressing when you seethem love both parents.
And of course they do, and theyshould be able to love freely.
That tendency, without, youknow, you can't really
characterise men and womencompletely one way or the other,
but there's a tendency of womento do the giant threat and at
(37:23):
the very worst make falseaccusations of sexual
inappropriate behaviour to thechildren, which of course then
could be years in sorting thatone out in the course from maybe
not years, but a long time.
It's so depressing when thathappens.
Especially if it's true, it's adifferent message, but often
(37:44):
it's not.
No, it can be an extremedungeon.
And that's coercive control.
Yeah, they'll say that's adifferent kind of coercive
control.
Yeah.
You know, threatening to dosomething damaging to that
father if he dares to leave.
So this is a female sort ofnarcissism.
(38:04):
Can we read something from thebook that I think is...
always struck me about what loveis.
So this is a book by SusanForwood called Toxic Parents.
This is not about toxic parents.
It's about just a general thing.
So she writes, loving behaviordoesn't grind you down, keep you
(38:25):
off balance or create feelingsof self-hatred.
Love doesn't hurt.
It feels good.
Loving behavior nourishes youremotional well-being.
When someone is being loving toyou, you feel accepted, cared
for, valued, and respected.
Genuine love creates feelings ofwarmth, pleasure, safety,
stability, and inner peace.
(38:47):
So I would go with all of that.
Now, that's not to say that allof us, every second or hour or
even year of our marriage arealways amazing and wonderful to
each other.
People have patches when it'snot so good.
But I think the essence thereis...
that if you don't feelrespected, if you feel
frightened, if you don't feelequal, if you don't feel you
(39:09):
have an equal say in what goeson in what kind of day, then you
are likely to be in arelationship with somebody who
has considerable qualities ofnarcissism.
You have experience of dealingwith people who come to you
about feeling very unhappy inmarriage when they've been
(39:31):
either married to a narcissistor been in an abusive
relationship we work with themin relation to trying to find
boundaries and respectingthemselves and that sometimes
could be quite a long journeyand analysing what's going on in
their marriage in terms of if Ido this X will happen to redress
(39:53):
that problem And in my work,because I'm a psychotherapist,
we or I, people, colleagues ofmine, we will help clients also
to look to their earlyexperiences, childhood
influences, which have helped orcontributed to who they are
today with a view to makingchanges to the future.
(40:16):
Because my view is you live howyou want, you stay with who you
want to stay with.
It's not...
not my business to tell someoneto leave the hospital.
Occasionally, I have pretty muchsaid that if somebody is being
violent and I think their lifeis a danger.
Well, thank you very much.
You're very welcome.
(40:36):
Talking about, to bring upanother citizen in particular
today, but that was reallyinteresting.
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