Therapy for Relationships: Strengthening Communication, Supporting Separation, and Rebuilding After Breakdown
Hosted by: Jane Tanquist, Head of Family Law at Myerson Solicitors
Guest: Lindsay George, Therapist based in Altrincham
🔍 Episode Summary
In this insightful episode, Jane Tanquist, a family lawyer at Myerson Solicitors, sits down with Lindsay George, an experienced therapist specialising in individual and couples therapy. Together, they explore the deep emotional and psychological aspects of relationships, covering:
- The three critical Cs of successful relationships: Communication, Compromise, and Commitment
- Why couples disengage – from financial pressures to social media distractions
- The emotional stages of relationship breakdown and how therapy can help navigate them
- The difference between productive and toxic communication patterns
- How therapy supports co-parenting and smoother separations
- The impact of divorce on emotional health and the journey toward recovery
- The growing trend of “relationship MOTs” – proactive therapy for couples
Whether you are facing relationship challenges, going through separation, or working with clients in similar circumstances, this episode offers professional perspectives and practical advice.
🧠Key Topics Covered
- Emotional disconnection and communication breakdown
- How therapists observe and address communication styles in couples
- The emotional spectrum of separation: grief, denial, ambivalence
- Supporting clients legally and therapeutically through divorce
- Long-term impacts of relationship breakdown
- The role of friends, family, and therapy in recovery
- Gendered patterns in post-divorce relationships
đź‘‚ Who This Episode is For
- Individuals or couples experiencing marital strain or separation
- Family solicitors, mediators, and other professionals in relationship law
- Therapists and mental health professionals working with separated or divorcing clients
- Listeners curious about healthy relationships and emotional wellbeing
đź“Ť Resources & Mentions
- Connect with Lindsay George: www.lindsaygeorge.co.uk
Stay tuned for more episodes of MyFamily Pod, where we tackle the issues that matter most to families. Don’t forget to subscribe and follow us on social media for updates!
LinkedIn: Myerson SolicitorsÂ
Instagram: @Myerson.SolicitorsÂ
Website: www.myerson.co.uk/Â
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Good morning, I'm Jane Tenquist.
I'm the head of the family teamat Myerson and I'm talking this
morning to Lindsay George who isa therapist in Altrincham who
sees individuals and couplesgoing through issues in relation
(00:24):
to their marriage orrelationship and we're
discussing what makes a marriagework and what makes it break
down and all the issues connectwith that so good morning
lindsay how are you I'm good,thank you.
How are you?
I'm fine, thank you.
Welcome to my family podcast.
(00:46):
The topic this morning thatwe're going to discuss is about
what makes a marriage work andwhat doesn't make it work and
what happens when peopledisengage from each other.
And there's an overlap betweenwhat we do because I, as a
divorce lawyer, see people whoare going through marriage
difficulties all the time andyou as a psychotherapist also
(01:08):
see individuals and couples whoare going through marriage
difficulties.
But I was wondering, Lindsay, inyour opinion, as a generalism,
what do you think makes amarriage work?
I would say good communicationactually it's more than that
clearly because it's more aboutcommitment and about compromise
(01:31):
and about communication thethree C's as I call them so you
probably see this I guess inyour work as well Jane that
we've got clients that cancommunicate in an open way the
process of separation anddivorce from your perspective
probably happens more smoothlythan if the is a kind of minded
(01:53):
way of communication which hasbeen part of why the marriage
has broken down in the firstplace so communication is about
listening isn't it it's abouthaving that open and honest
conversation and being able tosee it from somebody else's
perspective and I suppose alsoyou have an issue with people
with listening and hearing don'tyou with active listening really
(02:17):
listening which is hard work andalso just shutting down and you
know people rolling their eyesand thinking oh she's banging on
about this old thing again andthere's it's quite just you know
sometimes there's just ashutdown when you're trying to
communicate that's right it'sreally important of course to be
(02:37):
heard in a conversation and tobe open-minded to the other
person's version of how they seethings so it's a different
perspective and so I guessthat's the sort of compromise in
being willing to be able to seeit from somebody else's
perspective and be open-mindedwith a view to potentially
changing your own perspective.
(02:59):
Well, yes.
And what causes couples todisengage from each other over a
period of time, do you think?
So many reasons, so manyreasons.
And I guess the communicationbreakdown is probably the
highlight, really, which iswhere...
couples can potentiallydisengage from one another
(03:20):
because they just stop hearingeach other or they stop talking
with one another because theydon't feel heard or they don't
feel respected.
They don't feel that the otherperson values them.
So that creates a potential foremotional disconnection when
essentially that communicationis just no longer respected or
(03:44):
respectful to one another.
There are a lot of other reasonswhy couples disengage or
relationships break down.
For instance, financial issuescan cause stress and strain on a
relationship and that can createbetrayal or feelings of
mistrust.
Life situations, for instance,new children, new babies, you
(04:10):
know, when a couple decide tohave children, that causes
stress on the relationship andthe dynamic of the relationship
changes.
So that can create stress andstrain and feeling not respected
or valued it can create distancebetween the couple because they
don't have as much time togetherand they obviously are not
(04:30):
talking about the same thingsand they may feel ignored and
that obviously can have aconsequence on the finances and
then the lack of intimacy whichis another big reason why
couples disengage from oneanother and in privacy all sorts
of things it's not just aboutsex and sex life it's about
(04:52):
holding hands and about wantingto spend time with one another
and about wanting to do thingsfor each other in a way that is
about that person being theimportant person in your life.
When it stops being like thatthen lack of intimacy is
something that really manifestsitself in a relationship.
(05:12):
And that can lead to all sortsof feelings of resentment or
feeling supported or not seen.
And again, that can impact howwe communicate with one another.
And I suppose social mediahasn't helped because lots of
people scroll through theirphone, don't they, in the
evening and are more availableto online communication than
(05:34):
communication with the personthat they're sitting next to on
the sofa maybe that's um yeah ihear this a lot in my therapy
room you know you're always onyour phone you're not interested
in me we don't talk anymore andthis is all part of our busy
media lives which is to beconstantly available to others
(05:55):
and to be available to one youknow to each other we use these
social media um as a form ofescape because what we're trying
to do essentially is isdisengage yes disengaging we are
not only disengaging from theworld but we're disengaging from
our partners and from our familyum and so we often feel that you
(06:19):
know that's a sort of moreimportant part of their lives
than perhaps the person that'sopposite them in in on the sofa
I suppose, Lindsay, one of themain reasons why marriages and
relationships break down is adifficulty in communication with
each other.
And I noticed through my rolethat people have different ways
(06:41):
of communicating with eachother, don't they?
Sometimes if people are quiteshouty or aggressive or
demanding in terms of how theycommunicate, it can be quite
off-putting.
And I suppose someone might sortof block out that.
aggression might be.
But in therapy sessions withcouples, how can you as a
(07:02):
psychotherapist help couplesthrough their difficulties?
Yeah, that's a really goodpoint, Jane.
I guess it's the nuance ofcommunication is that we talk
about good communication and badcommunication, but actually what
does good communication looklike and what does bad
communication look like?
And actually the nuances arearound pitch, tone, intention.
(07:23):
You know, the shouty kind ofperson often is intimidating and
it can often be that that meansthe partner often closes down or
feels angry towards theirpartner for shouting in the
first place.
And And that can createemotional withdrawal and
detachment in a relationship.
(07:44):
So that's kind of a toxic way ofcommunicating, isn't it?
When we haven't learned theskills to be able to discuss.
So that's definitely wheretherapy can assist couples.
What couples can learn fromtherapy is not only around sort
of self-awareness, because thismight be a blind spot for
somebody to realise thatactually when they shout, their
(08:07):
partner feels angry or feelsupset or terrified or
intimidated.
And actually that blind spotwill come out in the therapy
room because One of the thingsthat therapists will do is when
they're working with couples isthey'll see the dynamic within
the couple's relationship andwhere the potential is for
(08:28):
conflict to arise or forwithdrawal of the relationship
and how that potentially playsout.
So it's really interestingwatching people in the therapy
room, how they actuallycommunicate with one another.
And a therapist will oftenintervene with that in obviously
a safe and supportive way to beable to point out that that
(08:53):
might not necessarily be helpfulin relation to resolving a
conflict or to develop bettercommunication skills.
So it's about trying to offerconstructive direction in a way,
not criticism, but more of adirection in relation to how
potentially they couldcommunicate differently with one
another.
(09:15):
And I suppose The benefits ofcounselling are dependent on a
person's ability toself-reflect, as well as analyse
what's going on in theirrelationship, but to
self-reflect on how they'recoming across, and maybe they're
stuck in a communication channelthat's not effective, you know.
(09:37):
It's not, you know, it can bequite, you know, if you get
somebody who's saying, you'realways doing this, and, you
know...
and someone always feels thatthey're right and the other
person's wrong, that can itselfbe quite toxic.
Very much so.
So again, this is where therapycan help enormously because it
(09:57):
can identify these patterns thathelp obviously contribute to
conflict and ultimately look attrying to repair the
relationship or or facilitatinga smoother separation if that's
what they've actually decidedthey want to do but ultimately
reflection is part of theprocess in therapy so the hour
in the therapy room is superimportant for learning and
(10:21):
listening and and hearing eachother and having that mediation
from the therapist which isabout direction and how those
little example nuances play outbut then the really the real
work actually happens when theclients leave the therapy room
it's the 167 hours that'soutside before you come back to
your next session that's theimportant bit and what gets way
(10:43):
often is we all repeat patternsas humans we all keep doing the
same thing over and over againand having to learn new skills
is often what happens in thetherapy room which is okay i
remember the therapist told meactually i mustn't do this
because actually it's nothelpful it puts the barriers up
for my partner it doesn'tresolve the situation I feel
(11:06):
terrible afterwards okay whatwas the thing that I needed to
do ah yes and those simple toolsthat potentially then can change
that person's behavior has anenormous effect on their partner
because they see that they'retrying and they then start to
become more supportive of oneanother in their endeavor to try
and repair this Do you find somecouples come to you periodically
(11:33):
as a sort of like a marriage orrelationship MOT just to keep
their relationship on trackrather than, you know, aiming,
oh, if you don't do this, I'mgoing to leave you?
Yes, I do.
That's a really good question.
Yes, very much so.
Couples that used to comeinitially that would say, we're
not even married, but we want tomake sure that actually we've
(11:53):
got some, you know, somefundamental parts of our
relationship ironed out beforewe decide we're going to get
married and actually havechildren.
I remember thinking, gosh, thisis really, really smart.
So I have seen much more of thatin recent years.
I suppose it's interesting.
For example, you know, do youwant a child or not?
(12:14):
You know, and people might havedifferent expectations
surrounding that.
Yeah, and I guess it comes downto other things as well.
If one person earns more thanthe other, then do they lose
respect for the other personbecause they are no longer
valuing them in the way thatthey are now feeling like the
provider for the family or thecouple.
And it's all of these littleunder-the-radar stuff that comes
(12:39):
up in their self-awareness andhaving these really open
conversations with somebody thatallows this safe space for them
to do that and guide themthrough in a way that doesn't
feel like one answer is rightand one answer is wrong because
this is a discussion isn't itit's not about getting it right
or wrong yeah so so in the inthe unfortunate circumstance
(13:04):
where a relationship is at anend um how can you help
individuals through theseparation process to because I
find it quite helpful to have atherapist in the background when
I'm dealing with someone'srelationship breakdown or
(13:26):
marriage breakdown with thembecause sometimes they're Quite
often, they're very, very upsetor angry.
I have all sorts of feelings.
And I quite often recommend thatthey go to therapy.
And I find it much easier todeal with the legal aspects of
(13:50):
the divorce with somebody whocan give me well-considered
instructions without beingcaught in an emotional backstop,
really.
Yeah, so I'm really pleased thatyou feel like that because when
couples come to a divorce asolicitor a family solicitor
(14:11):
like yourself they really arequite terrified at times and
they feel very overwhelmed withthe process of divorce and
because there's so many emotionsinvolved with a relationship
breakdown it's rather like griefin relation to losing a person
and losing a lifestyle losing afamily the whole process of
having to change your whole lifebecause the problem being is
(14:36):
that the relationship has Sotherapy is a really important
aspect when a relationshipbreaks down because it provides
that space, that really safe andnon-biased space to be able to
process these difficult emotionsand obviously hope to improve
the communication and help towork through the conflict that
(14:57):
comes up as a result of allthese really big emotions that
come about when one persondecides to leave a relationship
or indeed if bad parties decideto end a relationship then
obviously there's a completelydifferent scenario but
ultimately the therapist is anideal place to be able to offer
(15:18):
support for either parties orboth parties to either be able
to facilitate a smootherseparation or find a way to be
able to communicate better sothat they can deal with the
difficult and really awkward anduncomfortable process of divorce
(15:40):
because you know for the personwho wants to leave the marriage
there's the should i shouldn't iit must be like standing on the
top of the cliff and whetheryou're throwing yourself into
the great unknown and are youmaking the right decision or not
there must be a great deal ofdoubt around whether you're
doing the right thing.
(16:00):
And then for the person on thereceiving end of that
information, it must be terriblydifficult also because they're
having to, the biggest decisionof their lives is being made by
somebody else, not by them.
And having to really, you know,the decision to leave a marriage
might have been made or arelationship might have been
(16:20):
made by their partner severalmonths or several years before
before now and there's sort oflike a catching up process.
And it's very difficult for theperson who's left behind as well
to deal with that.
And I think therapy is really afantastic forum to be able to
(16:42):
assist both individuals incoming to terms with the changes
as a result of a breakdown of arelationship.
I guess what you've touched onthere is that actually there's a
lack of control for one party,the feeling of it being done to
them puts them in a much morevulnerable position and the
(17:04):
other person might have madethat decision months before and
is further down in that griefprocess so is actually in a
stage of feeling more in controland having mental clarity
whereas the partner that's beenperhaps ambushed or blindsided
by this huge decision may wellfeel very shocked and still in a
(17:27):
state of denial about it soagain a therapist will be able
to help support that person tobe able to not only work through
these difficult emotions, butalso to try and come to terms
with what's actually happeningso that they can engage in the
divorce process.
As you say, you find it mucheasier when somebody's got
(17:50):
therapeutic support behind themto be able to navigate the
divorce process with theclients.
And it's incredibly difficultbecause it's a huge
life-changing decision to bemade.
And there are so many otherthings to consider with in the
separation or the divorcebecause I guess if there's
(18:10):
children involved or there isfinances that potentially need
to be agreed upon then lifestylechanges then one person might
feel very out of control withall of that and again where
therapy can be really helpful inhelping them navigate those
really big subjects of how bestto work with those situations
(18:34):
and help guide them which againis it means i have to be very
much involved in what isactually happening in the legal
world which is why i read yourmonthly updates and get lots of
information from solicitorfriends about what's happening
in the legal world and what'sactually current um because
(18:55):
things change all the time Yeah,I find though, and I understand
why this happens, but I findthat quite a lot of people going
through relationship breakdownsrely on their family and friends
for guidance rather than goingto therapy.
And I understand the reason ismaybe financially driven, but
(19:15):
sometimes one's family are sortof quite unilateral in terms of
their approach and can be quitedivisive.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
And
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
sometimes it's not really helpful to sort of have
people telling you what you wantto hear all the time.
But it may be helpful to have asafe space to go to a therapist
and to sort of get help with theemotions that you're going
(19:46):
through as an individual and tobe able to work that through so
that ultimately you feel you'reable to cope and feel better
about yourself and the directionyour life is going in.
I totally agree.
Obviously we have biases and asfamily members we would always
want to support our family andmake them feel that they were
(20:10):
right and that they're wellsupported and that's one of the
things that clearly isencouraged that they have a good
support system in place becauseit makes the whole process so
much easier to navigate whenyou've got good support and
family, friends, network.
But the problem is we all haveagendas and we all want to make
our family and friends feel thatthey're right and that they're
(20:33):
well supported.
But as a result, we can oftencreate a sense of bias in
relation to how they thenperceive they're a partner that
they're estranged from becauseit can cause lots of mistrust
and resentment and that can addto the strain and stress of the
process of divorce andseparation.
(20:56):
So I guess this is where therapycan add an additional level of
support, which is clearly itcomes from an unbiased place.
There is no gender there fromthe therapist that ultimately
use incredibly, you know,skillful therapeutic processes
in order for them not to do anyharm because when somebody's
(21:16):
going through a divorce they'revulnerable and one of the huge
sort of code of conducts thattherapists need to use is that
we use a non-maleficent processwhich is do no harm to that
client and the due diligence isall about their vulnerability
and the safeguarding of thatperson so there will be a
(21:36):
feeling of vulnerability anddistress but clearly it's trying
to create clarity And controlnot colluding with the client
and saying, you know, yes, yourex is a terrible person.
This is about from a much morebalanced perspective.
And actually, these two peoplehad a relationship.
at one stage and they love eachother clearly enough to get
(21:58):
married and perhaps had childrentogether and what has broken
down obviously can't be you knowretrieved again but they can see
each other in a more umcollaborative way as opposed to
being enemies which is often oneof the byproducts of divorce
because it's yeah it's so messyand emotionally charged
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
But
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
I suppose lots of couples have children and they
have to be sort of co-parent ina constructive way in the
interest of the children reallyfor many years, the rest of
their lives probably.
So it's best that they try andtake steps to make that
relationship as good as theypossibly can over time.
(22:43):
So what helps individuals goingthrough separation and divorce?
As I said earlier, family andfriends are hugely helpful in
relation to feeling supported.
And ultimately, that supportnetwork is invaluable for the
person in relation to themdeveloping those coping
(23:04):
mechanisms which allow them tosee what this new life looks
like and to feel that they'vegot some direction.
If they don't want to, you know,reconcile with their partners
then they're having to look attheir lives in a different way
and their family and friends canbe hugely supportive in trying
to guide and steer them anddistract them as well because
(23:28):
obviously that that sort ofsense of life in the way that
they used to live their life wascompletely changed because their
roles are completely differentand they're having to be a
single person again perhaps asingle parent again and so that
when friends and family can canbe really helpful in sharing
some of the burden.
(23:48):
I think other things that arereally helpful are around
self-care and I talk a lot aboutself-care because particularly
women often see puttingthemselves first as being
selfish but I might instill thisperspective which is actually
You're no good to anybody,especially yourself, if you're
(24:09):
not looking after yourselfbecause nobody looks after you.
So you have to look afteryourself in a way that you
prioritise self-care.
So taking time for simple thingslike trying to relax or engage
in activities or exercise or,you know, healthy habits around
maybe sleep, the basics.
It's good sleep, trying to eatregular meals.
(24:30):
Perhaps if it's not too much tothink about how they spend some
of their social time now Do theylook to try and do something
that's going to bring somepleasure in their lives, like a
new activity with friends, sothat they can reconnect with
themselves?
Because the other things thatare really important, Jane, and
I don't know whether you talkabout this with your clients,
(24:52):
but it's around boundaries.
So one of the difficult thingswith people separating in
divorce is how do they establishnew boundaries with one another?
And again, this is all part ofthe sort of things that I would
go through with clients inrelation to setting new
boundaries explicitly with theirpartners so that they each know
(25:14):
what's right, what's wrong,what's okay, what's not okay.
So that it doesn't put them incompromised situations with one
another.
Yes, yeah.
Because I find that there's atransitioning from being a
couple to living separately anduse of joint accounts and going
into each other's houses andhaving keys to each other's
(25:37):
properties and that's nothelpful.
Sometimes it takes a while toadjust really but that's a
difficult period.
I often come across people whoare just really anxious and not
sleeping and depressed andsometimes they need medication,
sometimes they need to go andget some help from the doctor
and that's really normal andsometimes I think people think,
(26:00):
Oh, what's the matter with me?
You know, I'm really, really, Ifeel really down about this and
you know, um, there's somethingwrong with me and they can
internalize it.
And, and sometimes, sometimesmedication can help for a while.
Um, but it's really important tobe able to get a good night's
sleep and for many people,That's very difficult when
(26:21):
you're going through a divorceor a separation.
Absolutely, I agree with that.
I trained as a nurse in my 20s.
I can't help but look at thatholistic way approach, which
is...
If somebody needs medicationbecause their stress levels are
so high, they're not sleeping,not fundamentally getting the
nourishment they want from food,that they need from food, then
(26:42):
something's got to give.
And clearly, the problem beingis that it affects our hormones
and our serotonin and dopaminelevels.
They're the happy hormones thatkeep us afloat and being able to
deal with everyday life.
And it's a big life-changingsituation.
things that can happen likeseparation and divorce have a
massive impact on our on ourhealth and well-being yes yeah
(27:06):
and our physical health startsto deteriorate and clearly once
that and you know if that wasthe case you know we'd go to the
GP and we would get something tohelp us get better with mental
health it's harder to spotbecause we start to adjust to
these horrible feelings and westart to take them okay well
it's just because I'm feelingyou know I'm going through this
(27:27):
experience and they accept itbut actually some people can
become very depressed and theyfeel quite paralyzed with you
know making decisions I'm amassive advocate of trying to
guide clients through throughyou know whatever it is that
they need at that particulartime get them through this
process to the other sidebecause part of it is looking at
(27:49):
the future isn't it what helpsis looking at your future self
and avoid you know rushing intothe rushing through the whole
process because as much as weall want the other side actually
the whole process to go throughyeah As a divorce lawyer I leave
(28:11):
people at the end of theirdivorce or at the end of their
separation agreement and I don'tsee them after that and I often
wonder how they are in thefuture.
Do you think that there are anyobstacles to recovery from a
divorce for some people?
(28:32):
Do you think some people find itvery difficult ever to get over
a relationship breakdown?
Yes, yes, I do.
I often see people afterdivorce, actually, and for a
period of time, and that can goon for months, even years, if
they're struggling with comingto terms with what that new life
(28:52):
looks like and feels like andhow they manage to navigate it.
So the types of things that Iwork with are around prolonged
grief where somebody just feelsvery stuck and hasn't got over
the hurt and the pain and theadjustments of the divorce.
Some people can feel very angryand resentful to their
(29:13):
ex-partners and can get stuck inthat anger phase of grief where
they just can't tolerate evenspeaking about their partner.
And yet, of course, if they'vegot children, they have to
engage with communicating withthem.
And of course, that potentiallycan have an effect on the
children and how the childrenfeel around that parent.
(29:34):
And so the emotional pain of arelationship breakdown can be so
intense and long-lasting thatoften therapy is their only
chance, really, of recovery.
And that's important because torecognise that they can have an
alternative, you know, andactually that fear, that sense
of failure that they feel orthat sense of anger towards
(29:56):
their parents previous partnercan actually be overcome through
again through working throughthese really big emotions yeah
yeah also that trust element thebig situation when somebody's
been hurt in a relationship theyoften don't trust the potential
of starting a new relationshipor a very wary of it or a very
(30:21):
down on on on the thought of itbecause they feel that they've
become very generalistic intheir view viewpoints and say
you know i never want to be inanother relationship again
surprisingly you know men arevery quick there's a statistic
statistics here but 76 percentof men following divorce often
end up in a new relationshipwithin six months whereas wow
(30:44):
yes and with women it's over twoyears generally yeah Those are
interesting statistics, yes.
Well, thank you very much forcoming along and talking to me
this morning about a subjectthat I'm sure many people would
be interested in.
I think you're doing a wonderfuljob with couples in our area and
(31:07):
with individuals and I'dencourage anyone who is having
personal problems related tomarriage or relationships or
just anything to have sometherapy and I think that that
might help.
So thank you very much, Lindsay.
You're very welcome.
Anytime.
Good morning, I'm Jane Tenquist.
I'm the head of the family teamat Myerson and I'm talking this
morning to Lindsay George who isa therapist in Altrincham who
sees individuals and couplesgoing through issues in relation
(00:24):
to their marriage orrelationship and we're
discussing what makes a marriagework and what makes it break
down and all the issues connectwith that so good morning
lindsay how are you I'm good,thank you.
How are you?
I'm fine, thank you.
Welcome to my family podcast.
(00:46):
The topic this morning thatwe're going to discuss is about
what makes a marriage work andwhat doesn't make it work and
what happens when peopledisengage from each other.
And there's an overlap betweenwhat we do because I, as a
divorce lawyer, see people whoare going through marriage
difficulties all the time andyou as a psychotherapist also
(01:08):
see individuals and couples whoare going through marriage
difficulties.
But I was wondering, Lindsay, inyour opinion, as a generalism,
what do you think makes amarriage work?
I would say good communicationactually it's more than that
clearly because it's more aboutcommitment and about compromise
(01:31):
and about communication thethree C's as I call them so you
probably see this I guess inyour work as well Jane that
we've got clients that cancommunicate in an open way the
process of separation anddivorce from your perspective
probably happens more smoothlythan if the is a kind of minded
(01:53):
way of communication which hasbeen part of why the marriage
has broken down in the firstplace so communication is about
listening isn't it it's abouthaving that open and honest
conversation and being able tosee it from somebody else's
perspective and I suppose alsoyou have an issue with people
with listening and hearing don'tyou with active listening really
(02:17):
listening which is hard work andalso just shutting down and you
know people rolling their eyesand thinking oh she's banging on
about this old thing again andthere's it's quite just you know
sometimes there's just ashutdown when you're trying to
communicate that's right it'sreally important of course to be
(02:37):
heard in a conversation and tobe open-minded to the other
person's version of how they seethings so it's a different
perspective and so I guessthat's the sort of compromise in
being willing to be able to seeit from somebody else's
perspective and be open-mindedwith a view to potentially
changing your own perspective.
(02:59):
Well, yes.
And what causes couples todisengage from each other over a
period of time, do you think?
So many reasons, so manyreasons.
And I guess the communicationbreakdown is probably the
highlight, really, which iswhere...
couples can potentiallydisengage from one another
(03:20):
because they just stop hearingeach other or they stop talking
with one another because theydon't feel heard or they don't
feel respected.
They don't feel that the otherperson values them.
So that creates a potential foremotional disconnection when
essentially that communicationis just no longer respected or
(03:44):
respectful to one another.
There are a lot of other reasonswhy couples disengage or
relationships break down.
For instance, financial issuescan cause stress and strain on a
relationship and that can createbetrayal or feelings of
mistrust.
Life situations, for instance,new children, new babies, you
(04:10):
know, when a couple decide tohave children, that causes
stress on the relationship andthe dynamic of the relationship
changes.
So that can create stress andstrain and feeling not respected
or valued it can create distancebetween the couple because they
don't have as much time togetherand they obviously are not
(04:30):
talking about the same thingsand they may feel ignored and
that obviously can have aconsequence on the finances and
then the lack of intimacy whichis another big reason why
couples disengage from oneanother and in privacy all sorts
of things it's not just aboutsex and sex life it's about
(04:52):
holding hands and about wantingto spend time with one another
and about wanting to do thingsfor each other in a way that is
about that person being theimportant person in your life.
When it stops being like thatthen lack of intimacy is
something that really manifestsitself in a relationship.
(05:12):
And that can lead to all sortsof feelings of resentment or
feeling supported or not seen.
And again, that can impact howwe communicate with one another.
And I suppose social mediahasn't helped because lots of
people scroll through theirphone, don't they, in the
evening and are more availableto online communication than
(05:34):
communication with the personthat they're sitting next to on
the sofa maybe that's um yeah ihear this a lot in my therapy
room you know you're always onyour phone you're not interested
in me we don't talk anymore andthis is all part of our busy
media lives which is to beconstantly available to others
(05:55):
and to be available to one youknow to each other we use these
social media um as a form ofescape because what we're trying
to do essentially is isdisengage yes disengaging we are
not only disengaging from theworld but we're disengaging from
our partners and from our familyum and so we often feel that you
(06:19):
know that's a sort of moreimportant part of their lives
than perhaps the person that'sopposite them in in on the sofa
I suppose, Lindsay, one of themain reasons why marriages and
relationships break down is adifficulty in communication with
each other.
And I noticed through my rolethat people have different ways
(06:41):
of communicating with eachother, don't they?
Sometimes if people are quiteshouty or aggressive or
demanding in terms of how theycommunicate, it can be quite
off-putting.
And I suppose someone might sortof block out that.
aggression might be.
But in therapy sessions withcouples, how can you as a
(07:02):
psychotherapist help couplesthrough their difficulties?
Yeah, that's a really goodpoint, Jane.
I guess it's the nuance ofcommunication is that we talk
about good communication and badcommunication, but actually what
does good communication looklike and what does bad
communication look like?
And actually the nuances arearound pitch, tone, intention.
(07:23):
You know, the shouty kind ofperson often is intimidating and
it can often be that that meansthe partner often closes down or
feels angry towards theirpartner for shouting in the
first place.
And And that can createemotional withdrawal and
detachment in a relationship.
(07:44):
So that's kind of a toxic way ofcommunicating, isn't it?
When we haven't learned theskills to be able to discuss.
So that's definitely wheretherapy can assist couples.
What couples can learn fromtherapy is not only around sort
of self-awareness, because thismight be a blind spot for
somebody to realise thatactually when they shout, their
(08:07):
partner feels angry or feelsupset or terrified or
intimidated.
And actually that blind spotwill come out in the therapy
room because One of the thingsthat therapists will do is when
they're working with couples isthey'll see the dynamic within
the couple's relationship andwhere the potential is for
(08:28):
conflict to arise or forwithdrawal of the relationship
and how that potentially playsout.
So it's really interestingwatching people in the therapy
room, how they actuallycommunicate with one another.
And a therapist will oftenintervene with that in obviously
a safe and supportive way to beable to point out that that
(08:53):
might not necessarily be helpfulin relation to resolving a
conflict or to develop bettercommunication skills.
So it's about trying to offerconstructive direction in a way,
not criticism, but more of adirection in relation to how
potentially they couldcommunicate differently with one
another.
(09:15):
And I suppose The benefits ofcounselling are dependent on a
person's ability toself-reflect, as well as analyse
what's going on in theirrelationship, but to
self-reflect on how they'recoming across, and maybe they're
stuck in a communication channelthat's not effective, you know.
(09:37):
It's not, you know, it can bequite, you know, if you get
somebody who's saying, you'realways doing this, and, you
know...
and someone always feels thatthey're right and the other
person's wrong, that can itselfbe quite toxic.
Very much so.
So again, this is where therapycan help enormously because it
(09:57):
can identify these patterns thathelp obviously contribute to
conflict and ultimately look attrying to repair the
relationship or or facilitatinga smoother separation if that's
what they've actually decidedthey want to do but ultimately
reflection is part of theprocess in therapy so the hour
in the therapy room is superimportant for learning and
(10:21):
listening and and hearing eachother and having that mediation
from the therapist which isabout direction and how those
little example nuances play outbut then the really the real
work actually happens when theclients leave the therapy room
it's the 167 hours that'soutside before you come back to
your next session that's theimportant bit and what gets way
(10:43):
often is we all repeat patternsas humans we all keep doing the
same thing over and over againand having to learn new skills
is often what happens in thetherapy room which is okay i
remember the therapist told meactually i mustn't do this
because actually it's nothelpful it puts the barriers up
for my partner it doesn'tresolve the situation I feel
(11:06):
terrible afterwards okay whatwas the thing that I needed to
do ah yes and those simple toolsthat potentially then can change
that person's behavior has anenormous effect on their partner
because they see that they'retrying and they then start to
become more supportive of oneanother in their endeavor to try
and repair this Do you find somecouples come to you periodically
(11:33):
as a sort of like a marriage orrelationship MOT just to keep
their relationship on trackrather than, you know, aiming,
oh, if you don't do this, I'mgoing to leave you?
Yes, I do.
That's a really good question.
Yes, very much so.
Couples that used to comeinitially that would say, we're
not even married, but we want tomake sure that actually we've
(11:53):
got some, you know, somefundamental parts of our
relationship ironed out beforewe decide we're going to get
married and actually havechildren.
I remember thinking, gosh, thisis really, really smart.
So I have seen much more of thatin recent years.
I suppose it's interesting.
For example, you know, do youwant a child or not?
(12:14):
You know, and people might havedifferent expectations
surrounding that.
Yeah, and I guess it comes downto other things as well.
If one person earns more thanthe other, then do they lose
respect for the other personbecause they are no longer
valuing them in the way thatthey are now feeling like the
provider for the family or thecouple.
And it's all of these littleunder-the-radar stuff that comes
(12:39):
up in their self-awareness andhaving these really open
conversations with somebody thatallows this safe space for them
to do that and guide themthrough in a way that doesn't
feel like one answer is rightand one answer is wrong because
this is a discussion isn't itit's not about getting it right
or wrong yeah so so in the inthe unfortunate circumstance
(13:04):
where a relationship is at anend um how can you help
individuals through theseparation process to because I
find it quite helpful to have atherapist in the background when
I'm dealing with someone'srelationship breakdown or
(13:26):
marriage breakdown with thembecause sometimes they're Quite
often, they're very, very upsetor angry.
I have all sorts of feelings.
And I quite often recommend thatthey go to therapy.
And I find it much easier todeal with the legal aspects of
(13:50):
the divorce with somebody whocan give me well-considered
instructions without beingcaught in an emotional backstop,
really.
Yeah, so I'm really pleased thatyou feel like that because when
couples come to a divorce asolicitor a family solicitor
(14:11):
like yourself they really arequite terrified at times and
they feel very overwhelmed withthe process of divorce and
because there's so many emotionsinvolved with a relationship
breakdown it's rather like griefin relation to losing a person
and losing a lifestyle losing afamily the whole process of
having to change your whole lifebecause the problem being is
(14:36):
that the relationship has Sotherapy is a really important
aspect when a relationshipbreaks down because it provides
that space, that really safe andnon-biased space to be able to
process these difficult emotionsand obviously hope to improve
the communication and help towork through the conflict that
(14:57):
comes up as a result of allthese really big emotions that
come about when one persondecides to leave a relationship
or indeed if bad parties decideto end a relationship then
obviously there's a completelydifferent scenario but
ultimately the therapist is anideal place to be able to offer
(15:18):
support for either parties orboth parties to either be able
to facilitate a smootherseparation or find a way to be
able to communicate better sothat they can deal with the
difficult and really awkward anduncomfortable process of divorce
(15:40):
because you know for the personwho wants to leave the marriage
there's the should i shouldn't iit must be like standing on the
top of the cliff and whetheryou're throwing yourself into
the great unknown and are youmaking the right decision or not
there must be a great deal ofdoubt around whether you're
doing the right thing.
(16:00):
And then for the person on thereceiving end of that
information, it must be terriblydifficult also because they're
having to, the biggest decisionof their lives is being made by
somebody else, not by them.
And having to really, you know,the decision to leave a marriage
might have been made or arelationship might have been
(16:20):
made by their partner severalmonths or several years before
before now and there's sort oflike a catching up process.
And it's very difficult for theperson who's left behind as well
to deal with that.
And I think therapy is really afantastic forum to be able to
(16:42):
assist both individuals incoming to terms with the changes
as a result of a breakdown of arelationship.
I guess what you've touched onthere is that actually there's a
lack of control for one party,the feeling of it being done to
them puts them in a much morevulnerable position and the
(17:04):
other person might have madethat decision months before and
is further down in that griefprocess so is actually in a
stage of feeling more in controland having mental clarity
whereas the partner that's beenperhaps ambushed or blindsided
by this huge decision may wellfeel very shocked and still in a
(17:27):
state of denial about it soagain a therapist will be able
to help support that person tobe able to not only work through
these difficult emotions, butalso to try and come to terms
with what's actually happeningso that they can engage in the
divorce process.
As you say, you find it mucheasier when somebody's got
(17:50):
therapeutic support behind themto be able to navigate the
divorce process with theclients.
And it's incredibly difficultbecause it's a huge
life-changing decision to bemade.
And there are so many otherthings to consider with in the
separation or the divorcebecause I guess if there's
(18:10):
children involved or there isfinances that potentially need
to be agreed upon then lifestylechanges then one person might
feel very out of control withall of that and again where
therapy can be really helpful inhelping them navigate those
really big subjects of how bestto work with those situations
(18:34):
and help guide them which againis it means i have to be very
much involved in what isactually happening in the legal
world which is why i read yourmonthly updates and get lots of
information from solicitorfriends about what's happening
in the legal world and what'sactually current um because
(18:55):
things change all the time Yeah,I find though, and I understand
why this happens, but I findthat quite a lot of people going
through relationship breakdownsrely on their family and friends
for guidance rather than goingto therapy.
And I understand the reason ismaybe financially driven, but
(19:15):
sometimes one's family are sortof quite unilateral in terms of
their approach and can be quitedivisive.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
And
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
sometimes it's not really helpful to sort of have
people telling you what you wantto hear all the time.
But it may be helpful to have asafe space to go to a therapist
and to sort of get help with theemotions that you're going
(19:46):
through as an individual and tobe able to work that through so
that ultimately you feel you'reable to cope and feel better
about yourself and the directionyour life is going in.
I totally agree.
Obviously we have biases and asfamily members we would always
want to support our family andmake them feel that they were
(20:10):
right and that they're wellsupported and that's one of the
things that clearly isencouraged that they have a good
support system in place becauseit makes the whole process so
much easier to navigate whenyou've got good support and
family, friends, network.
But the problem is we all haveagendas and we all want to make
our family and friends feel thatthey're right and that they're
(20:33):
well supported.
But as a result, we can oftencreate a sense of bias in
relation to how they thenperceive they're a partner that
they're estranged from becauseit can cause lots of mistrust
and resentment and that can addto the strain and stress of the
process of divorce andseparation.
(20:56):
So I guess this is where therapycan add an additional level of
support, which is clearly itcomes from an unbiased place.
There is no gender there fromthe therapist that ultimately
use incredibly, you know,skillful therapeutic processes
in order for them not to do anyharm because when somebody's
(21:16):
going through a divorce they'revulnerable and one of the huge
sort of code of conducts thattherapists need to use is that
we use a non-maleficent processwhich is do no harm to that
client and the due diligence isall about their vulnerability
and the safeguarding of thatperson so there will be a
(21:36):
feeling of vulnerability anddistress but clearly it's trying
to create clarity And controlnot colluding with the client
and saying, you know, yes, yourex is a terrible person.
This is about from a much morebalanced perspective.
And actually, these two peoplehad a relationship.
at one stage and they love eachother clearly enough to get
(21:58):
married and perhaps had childrentogether and what has broken
down obviously can't be you knowretrieved again but they can see
each other in a more umcollaborative way as opposed to
being enemies which is often oneof the byproducts of divorce
because it's yeah it's so messyand emotionally charged
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
But
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
I suppose lots of couples have children and they
have to be sort of co-parent ina constructive way in the
interest of the children reallyfor many years, the rest of
their lives probably.
So it's best that they try andtake steps to make that
relationship as good as theypossibly can over time.
(22:43):
So what helps individuals goingthrough separation and divorce?
As I said earlier, family andfriends are hugely helpful in
relation to feeling supported.
And ultimately, that supportnetwork is invaluable for the
person in relation to themdeveloping those coping
(23:04):
mechanisms which allow them tosee what this new life looks
like and to feel that they'vegot some direction.
If they don't want to, you know,reconcile with their partners
then they're having to look attheir lives in a different way
and their family and friends canbe hugely supportive in trying
to guide and steer them anddistract them as well because
(23:28):
obviously that that sort ofsense of life in the way that
they used to live their life wascompletely changed because their
roles are completely differentand they're having to be a
single person again perhaps asingle parent again and so that
when friends and family can canbe really helpful in sharing
some of the burden.
(23:48):
I think other things that arereally helpful are around
self-care and I talk a lot aboutself-care because particularly
women often see puttingthemselves first as being
selfish but I might instill thisperspective which is actually
You're no good to anybody,especially yourself, if you're
(24:09):
not looking after yourselfbecause nobody looks after you.
So you have to look afteryourself in a way that you
prioritise self-care.
So taking time for simple thingslike trying to relax or engage
in activities or exercise or,you know, healthy habits around
maybe sleep, the basics.
It's good sleep, trying to eatregular meals.
(24:30):
Perhaps if it's not too much tothink about how they spend some
of their social time now Do theylook to try and do something
that's going to bring somepleasure in their lives, like a
new activity with friends, sothat they can reconnect with
themselves?
Because the other things thatare really important, Jane, and
I don't know whether you talkabout this with your clients,
(24:52):
but it's around boundaries.
So one of the difficult thingswith people separating in
divorce is how do they establishnew boundaries with one another?
And again, this is all part ofthe sort of things that I would
go through with clients inrelation to setting new
boundaries explicitly with theirpartners so that they each know
(25:14):
what's right, what's wrong,what's okay, what's not okay.
So that it doesn't put them incompromised situations with one
another.
Yes, yeah.
Because I find that there's atransitioning from being a
couple to living separately anduse of joint accounts and going
into each other's houses andhaving keys to each other's
(25:37):
properties and that's nothelpful.
Sometimes it takes a while toadjust really but that's a
difficult period.
I often come across people whoare just really anxious and not
sleeping and depressed andsometimes they need medication,
sometimes they need to go andget some help from the doctor
and that's really normal andsometimes I think people think,
(26:00):
Oh, what's the matter with me?
You know, I'm really, really, Ifeel really down about this and
you know, um, there's somethingwrong with me and they can
internalize it.
And, and sometimes, sometimesmedication can help for a while.
Um, but it's really important tobe able to get a good night's
sleep and for many people,That's very difficult when
(26:21):
you're going through a divorceor a separation.
Absolutely, I agree with that.
I trained as a nurse in my 20s.
I can't help but look at thatholistic way approach, which
is...
If somebody needs medicationbecause their stress levels are
so high, they're not sleeping,not fundamentally getting the
nourishment they want from food,that they need from food, then
(26:42):
something's got to give.
And clearly, the problem beingis that it affects our hormones
and our serotonin and dopaminelevels.
They're the happy hormones thatkeep us afloat and being able to
deal with everyday life.
And it's a big life-changingsituation.
things that can happen likeseparation and divorce have a
massive impact on our on ourhealth and well-being yes yeah
(27:06):
and our physical health startsto deteriorate and clearly once
that and you know if that wasthe case you know we'd go to the
GP and we would get something tohelp us get better with mental
health it's harder to spotbecause we start to adjust to
these horrible feelings and westart to take them okay well
it's just because I'm feelingyou know I'm going through this
(27:27):
experience and they accept itbut actually some people can
become very depressed and theyfeel quite paralyzed with you
know making decisions I'm amassive advocate of trying to
guide clients through throughyou know whatever it is that
they need at that particulartime get them through this
process to the other sidebecause part of it is looking at
(27:49):
the future isn't it what helpsis looking at your future self
and avoid you know rushing intothe rushing through the whole
process because as much as weall want the other side actually
the whole process to go throughyeah As a divorce lawyer I leave
(28:11):
people at the end of theirdivorce or at the end of their
separation agreement and I don'tsee them after that and I often
wonder how they are in thefuture.
Do you think that there are anyobstacles to recovery from a
divorce for some people?
(28:32):
Do you think some people find itvery difficult ever to get over
a relationship breakdown?
Yes, yes, I do.
I often see people afterdivorce, actually, and for a
period of time, and that can goon for months, even years, if
they're struggling with comingto terms with what that new life
(28:52):
looks like and feels like andhow they manage to navigate it.
So the types of things that Iwork with are around prolonged
grief where somebody just feelsvery stuck and hasn't got over
the hurt and the pain and theadjustments of the divorce.
Some people can feel very angryand resentful to their
(29:13):
ex-partners and can get stuck inthat anger phase of grief where
they just can't tolerate evenspeaking about their partner.
And yet, of course, if they'vegot children, they have to
engage with communicating withthem.
And of course, that potentiallycan have an effect on the
children and how the childrenfeel around that parent.
(29:34):
And so the emotional pain of arelationship breakdown can be so
intense and long-lasting thatoften therapy is their only
chance, really, of recovery.
And that's important because torecognise that they can have an
alternative, you know, andactually that fear, that sense
of failure that they feel orthat sense of anger towards
(29:56):
their parents previous partnercan actually be overcome through
again through working throughthese really big emotions yeah
yeah also that trust element thebig situation when somebody's
been hurt in a relationship theyoften don't trust the potential
of starting a new relationshipor a very wary of it or a very
(30:21):
down on on on the thought of itbecause they feel that they've
become very generalistic intheir view viewpoints and say
you know i never want to be inanother relationship again
surprisingly you know men arevery quick there's a statistic
statistics here but 76 percentof men following divorce often
end up in a new relationshipwithin six months whereas wow
(30:44):
yes and with women it's over twoyears generally yeah Those are
interesting statistics, yes.
Well, thank you very much forcoming along and talking to me
this morning about a subjectthat I'm sure many people would
be interested in.
I think you're doing a wonderfuljob with couples in our area and
(31:07):
with individuals and I'dencourage anyone who is having
personal problems related tomarriage or relationships or
just anything to have sometherapy and I think that that
might help.
So thank you very much, Lindsay.
You're very welcome.
Anytime.
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