December 2, 2024 • 39 mins
In this episode of MyFamily Pod, host Nicola Bright, family lawyer at Myerson Solicitors, speaks with Helen Carouzos, a highly experienced HCPC-registered counselling psychologist.
Together, they delve into the psychological challenges of divorce and separation, the impact of ADHD on family dynamics, and the importance of co-parenting and self-care during turbulent times.
Topics include:
- How ADHD can influence divorce and co-parenting.
- Supporting children emotionally through separation.
- Building resilience and self-care strategies for parents.
- Managing legal and emotional stress during separation.
Whether you're navigating a divorce, supporting a loved one, or seeking expert advice, this episode offers practical tips and compassionate insights to help you through the process.
If you’re seeking support for a family law matter, our expert team at Myerson Solicitors is here to help. Whether it’s guidance on divorce, financial arrangements, or co-parenting, we provide compassionate, tailored advice.
Find out more here: https://www.myerson.co.uk/personal/family-law
For more resources and support, you can also reach out to Helen Carouzos for counselling and therapeutic services.
Find out more here: https://helencarouzos.co.uk/
Stay tuned for more episodes of MyFamily Pod, where we tackle the issues that matter most to families. Don’t forget to subscribe and follow us on social media for updates!
LinkedIn: Myerson Solicitors
Instagram: @Myerson.Solicitors
X: @MyersonLawyers
Website: www.myerson.co.uk/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to My Family Pod.
I'm Nicola Bright, family lawyerat Myers& Solicitors, an
all-service law firm based inAltrincham.
(00:22):
Today I am with my guest, HelenCaruzos, and she is a HCPC
Registered CounsellingPsychologist and Chartered
Member of the BritishPsychological Society.
And today we're going to talkabout the psychology of divorce
and separation, the impact ofADHD, co-parenting and self-care
tips.
(00:43):
Welcome, Helen, to our podcast.
(01:10):
Thank you, Nicola.
Thanks for the introduction andthe opportunity to be here
today.
No problem at all.
First of all, for our listeners,I'd really like you to tell me a
bit about your practice and thesorts of clients you work with
who might be going throughfamily separation and divorce.
Okay.
So a little bit about me.
As you can probably tell, I'mfrom Australia.
(01:32):
and not America or Canada.
So I've been a psychologist nowfor, I think I'm gonna start
showing my age, for about 27years.
I trained in Australia.
I've been in England now forabout 11 years.
I've had my own privatepractice.
as you said, in Altrium, inBowdoin specifically.
(01:52):
And I've had my own business nowfor about seven years.
I primarily work with adults,but when I say adults, 16-ish,
17-ish and above.
So I'm a child psychologist, soI primarily work with adults, as
I said.
And for various mental healthissues, the most common reason
why people come to see me isprobably anxiety, depression,
(02:13):
relationship issues.
work issues, grief and loss,PTSD, OCD.
So pretty much most of the sortof conditions or issues and
concerns that people might haveand it's impacting their mental
health.
(02:35):
I strive to be more eclectic orintegrated in my approach with
my clients.
So I don't have a one systemfits all, one approach fits all
client.
So I really do tailor make myintervention according to client
needs because everyone's uniqueand everyone's different.
Even if they are struggling withsimilar symptoms, everyone is
(02:58):
still different becauseeveryone's experiences are
different and unique to them.
So yeah, I also work a lot inADHD coaching.
So I also see adults who've beenrecently diagnosed with ADHD.
I can think of a few casesalready that I've got on at the
(03:19):
moment where there's childrenwith ADHD, but also the parents
who have been diagnosed in laterlife.
And it can impact if we'rehelping the parent or the spouse
with ADHD impacts on how, firstof all, readily available they
are because they might not wantto talk about difficult issues
or try and use distractiontechniques.
(03:41):
This is what they tell meanyway.
And also when we're trying totake instructions or explain
difficult things to them, whichlegal documents are difficult to
read for anyone.
And if you can't focus for verylong, they find it really
difficult to provideinstructions and we have to take
a really different approach withthose people, with those
clients.
So is it something you found?
(04:03):
Yes, that's exactly about thosesort of problems.
Okay, we're talking about legaldocuments here, but in my
experience working with ADHDclients, it will be around
problems concentrating andfocusing, whether that's at
work.
particularly if they're in adminor any kind of job which
requires procedures and aprocess where they have to read
(04:23):
documents or maybe reply back toemails.
So it is a common symptom thatthey will find it difficult to
sit and process information anddo what's required, not because
they don't want to.
And, you know, this is the thingthat really annoys me.
It's not about laziness.
No, it's, you know, in fact,they're the most active people
(04:45):
and determined people that youcan ever meet.
And often most success Yeah,exactly, exactly.
So it's not about laziness, justa real struggle because of those
deficiencies in the brain, theneurotransmitter, all the brain
chemicals, namely dopamine andnorepinephrine, they find it
difficult to do the sorts ofthings that perhaps you and I
take for granted.
(05:06):
So in that way, I provide thecoaching, which is about
providing strategies andtechniques to help them come up
with a system that works forthem you know so it may be that
they don't go from a to b like aneurotypical person but it might
(05:26):
be they need to go from a to cand then come back to b you know
it doesn't matter what themethod is what matters is the
outcome and when you look atproductivity efficiency outcome
levels if there's no differenceit doesn't matter how they get
there the point is they getthere you know and i think
that's the difference but Wherethe frustration and the anger
(05:49):
and the sadness and the anxietycomes in is when you've got
these neurodiverse clientstrying to fit in or A non-linear
brained person trying to fitinto a linear brained world.
It's not going to matchsometimes.
And a lot of the time itdoesn't, you know.
So this is the thing.
And I think workplaces arestarting to come around to that.
(06:11):
But I think we still have a longway to go.
And I always say every workplaceshould at least have one ADHD
person in it.
Because if you need ideas, yougo to an ADHD person because
they're brilliant.
So they're creative, usuallyabove average intelligence.
And at the same time, you know,the concern is, well, they might
not get to follow up.
They might not, you know, finishtasks.
(06:33):
That's okay.
But that's the whole point ofbeing in a team is to be able to
work out, well, you're great atthe ideas.
How about we give that to Nicolato maybe follow up, you know?
And so everyone brings theirstrengths.
Yeah.
It's like you have theknowledge, but they're not
necessarily the tools.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's when coaching canhelp you use different tools.
(06:54):
Yeah, exactly.
When an actual fact, when I...
It's interesting when peoplecome to see me for coaching,
it's never just about thecoaching.
So I always say, I actuallyoffer a mix.
So I come up with my own phraseand what I do offer is
therapeutic coaching.
Because when someone isstruggling with their ADHD
journey, particularlypre-diagnosed, it doesn't, well,
(07:15):
or throughout evenpost-diagnosis, you know, a
whole lifetime, it does impactpeople's self-esteem and
confidence.
And, you know, that little voicein your head that talks to you
about you, it's not particularlyhealthy or positive.
And so So how can it not be amental health issue?
So this is why I find I mightstart off with the coaching, but
then, and I do flag this withthem, we might need to stop and
(07:37):
go, right.
We just need to put that on theback burner for now, depending
on what the situation is.
Sometimes it's in parallel.
And we need to address what wecall in psychology unfinished
business.
And it might be a previoustrauma.
It might be a bad experiencethey've had that they've managed
(07:58):
to compartmentalize in some way.
So yeah, they've learned tocope, but they really haven't
processed a lot of that trauma.
The problem we saw is thatimpacts ADHD as well.
The problem we find,particularly with separation and
divorce proceedings, is ifyou're on the receiving end of
(08:21):
phone news and perhaps you arenot neurotypical or you may have
mental health conditions,undiagnosed or diagnosed, you're
then dealing with the shock ofsomeone telling you, I want to
leave the marriage and all theimplications of that.
Quite quickly then, you may findyourself in a solicitor's office
for the first time in your life,speaking to someone about really
(08:44):
in-depth private issues.
And a lot of divorce andfinancial work can be quite
front-loaded.
So within a matter of weeks, youcould be presented with a
divorce petition, a Form E,which is a very lengthy
petition, financial document,what is your centre way to
complete?
And if you have mental healthissues or ADHD, perhaps that's
(09:07):
going to be really difficult ifyou're on a tight timescale, set
by the other side, perhaps,because a family procedure can
sometimes be quite unforgivingif you are dealing with
particularly, perhaps aggressivesolicitors on the other side.
And we're only, you know, we'rekind of in a position where
(09:28):
we're only as good as theopponent because we have to
match them in some way.
And if they want documentsprovided within so many days, we
can try and calm down theinflammatory tone of
correspondence, et cetera.
But ultimately, if they'rethreatening corporate
proceedings, we have to respondto them.
It's out of our control if theyissue corporate proceedings.
(09:49):
And this person has just hadtheir whole world turned upside
down in a matter of weeks andit's those people that I think
need support more than anyoneand therapy and just to help
with the shock and I wanted tospeak to you about that really
and how how you deal with peoplewho come to you because
something's happened in theirlife.
Not because they think, oh, Ithink I need therapy.
(10:10):
Actually, something reallyterrible's happened to them.
And you're dealing with someonein a real state.
Yeah.
So do you see that often wherethey come to you for the first
time and they are just in shockand they've been told that their
husband or wife's leaving them?
Well, yeah, that happens.
Although both divorcing partnersare going through this stage, we
(10:32):
need to keep in mind that theone who's decided to leave the
marriage has had time, yes, tothink about this.
You know, they've probably gonethrough all the natural ups and
downs.
It's gone through the process ofindecision and what to do.
So they've already thought aboutit.
They've gone through some of thefeelings and, you know, it's
(10:53):
gotten to a point they mighthave had an argument and that's
it.
It's the straw that broke thecamel's back.
And for them, I'm not sayingit's not difficult for them
because they too are going to gothrough all the emotional
struggles you know, side ofthat.
But for the, so that's thelever, but the lefty, if we can
call that person, the one who'snow receiving that news, yes,
(11:16):
they're hunched off, you know,Even if they've both had
disagreements, they've bothmaybe even discussed divorce or
separation or, you know, maybewe come to an end.
Even with those conversations,it still comes as a shock
because there's a differencebetween talking about it and the
reality sets in when the leaveractually leaves the house.
(11:40):
Yes.
And I think that's when it'sreality, like I said, sits in
and go, wow, this is actuallyhappening.
Oh my goodness, how did we getto this point?
And that shock and denial, thiscan't be happening, can't be
happening to me.
So that phase can actually lasta few weeks, probably longer.
Sometimes even longer.
And also what happens sometimesis that, and I found this, is
(12:02):
they have spoken about it.
Perhaps one of them, theperson's telling the other
person the bad news has alreadyleft.
And then it's left for a while,sometimes weeks, sometimes
months and years.
And then they get a letter froma solicitor and it reopens it.
And it's a new level of shock.
It's like, oh, they really wantto get in the airs now.
And I see people sometimes yearsafter separation and they're
(12:24):
just as upset as they tell me.
They're as upset as they werebefore because they've had this
letter to say, I'm issuingdivorce proceedings.
With a nail in the coffin.
And they are devastated all overagain.
All over again.
Because maybe they've developeda way to, using that wording,
again, compartmentalize it wasbecause if I don't have to, they
don't have to deal with it.
If they don't have to signanything, do anything, then
(12:45):
it's, well, it's off the table.
It's not happening.
So it is a denial, isn't it?
It's like, it's not whathappened is because I'm not
doing anything.
And of course, when it getstriggered again, it might be a
letter.
It might be something that'sjust popped up.
And this is where we can gothrough, you know, and you
might've heard the five stagesof grief and loss because this
can be similar to that.
This is when, yes, the sadnessis, you know, starts to creep
(13:08):
back in again.
You might even get some angeraround that.
I don't know if you've seenclients that way, but when
they're stuck in that angerstate so this is not fair, this
shouldn't be happening.
It can last a long time.
Yeah, and this is where theymight not be particularly
compliant or cooperative withwhatever legal proceedings might
be required.
They want to be instructed.
It's really hard for us to tryand keep them calm and on a
(13:32):
level, and we're here to helpthem legally, and often some
days I come home and think, oh,I felt like a social worker
today, but it's just part of thejob, and you have to be
compassionate and considerate topeople at any stage of that
cycle.
Sure.
And...
And it's something that I feelquite passionate about a client
having a circle of supportaround them because I'm not
trained like you are.
(13:54):
Everyone can play to differentstrokes.
And if someone has a networkaround them of, you know, they
could have their solicitor, thentherapeutic support,
psychological support, financialsupport from a financial
advisor, perhaps, and have thisnetwork of people that they can
trust, it helps things movealong a little bit.
And I notice a massivedifference in clients before
(14:14):
they've had any sort ofpsychological help and after.
And it helps me do my job.
Yeah, because I can't do whatyou do.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's getting them to...
Well, you end up being a veryexpensive psychologist.
It's hard for a kite to know thedifference sometimes in...
oversharing information.
It's relevant, but not thatrelevant.
(14:35):
So spending half an hour on thephone talking about something
that happened in the marriage 20years ago was not going to be
relevant to this case now.
And they just need an outlet.
Well, they do.
And particularly, like you said,if their social network or
support system is not very good,because you're actually dealing
with the divorce.
I know it's You're dealing withthe legal side.
(14:56):
But the thing is, you're theclosest thing to that, short of
a therapist and anyone else.
You're in.
So, you know, they might notfully appreciate the importance
of maintaining those boundaries,that you're their legal advisor
and not their psychologist.
But the two are very...
can become quite a meshsometimes.
(15:17):
This is where the boundariesbecome blurred.
And this is why it's relevant tobe able to have the information
to say, we do have a network oftherapists or psychologists that
can help you.
Otherwise, you are not only,cause doing what you do as a
family lawyer, your work isalready tough.
And then on top of that, you'vegot someone who is continually
(15:42):
divulging really personalinformation about what's going
on.
Do you deal with people who, andI think the answer is going to
be yes, that go throughsomething like this and they are
in a state of shock, obviously,and then anger, denial.
but this brings up for themprevious trauma.
(16:02):
And they are, you realize inyour therapy that actually this
trauma here that from childhoodperhaps is now being brought up
by this new germ.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
A lot of the time, because thisreminds them of what it might've
felt or how it did feel onceupon a time when someone left
(16:23):
them.
It might be maybe they're, theirparents divorced.
So maybe that wasn'tparticularly amicable perhaps.
Maybe that was quite disruptiveand maybe there was a lot of
arguing going on and lots ofemotions and them witnessing a
lot of the struggle that theirparents might have had.
(16:44):
So if that is something that'sunresolved or hadn't been
addressed, and they just carriedon and just, you know, sometimes
it plays out in theirrelationships too.
So this might be, the divorcemight be indicative of
relationship patterns, you know,particularly if, earlier trauma
hadn't been addressed you knowso what ends up happening
(17:07):
potentially is a repeat ofcertain behaviors that impact
relationships um that's aninteresting point yeah not
always because sometimes it'sthe fact that they have gone
through a particularly baddivorce with their own parents
that they've been able to learnfrom that you know and they can
(17:28):
go right okay how do i navigatethis differently.
That's different because that'sabout awareness and having that
insight.
But ordinarily, people can, alot of the times, just repeat
those same patterns.
With repeating patterns, can youhelp couples who are not
thinking about divorce butreally want to work on their
marriage?
No, you work with them.
(17:48):
Absolutely.
Actually, it came up yesterday,did it?
Yeah, so yesterday I was seeingsomeone who, I was seeing the
husband on a one-to-one for hisADHD.
Yeah, interesting we're talkingabout that.
And, of course, with ADHD, whenpeople are struggling to manage,
that can impact relationships ina really big way, and this one
(18:09):
clearly did.
And so what I did was I invitedthe wife in.
into one of our sessions just toget her input about the impact
that he's ADHD.
It wasn't about blame and itwasn't about right, wrong.
It was about, okay, where arethe struggles and where are the
pockets for improvement here?
Because, yes, like I previouslysaid, they were talking about
(18:32):
divorce.
Yeah, they were pretty muchkeeping to themselves in
separate bedrooms.
Okay.
And I had talked about it.
But then what we were able to,this is the rewarding part of my
job, is okay, so what do youreally want to do here, guys?
How do you feel about eachother?
Is there enough invested in thisrelationship to want to try and
do things differently?
(18:52):
And they both said, yes.
Oh, brilliant.
Right, well, that's a greatstarting point because now
you've got buy-in.
So if you've got buy-in, thenthat's going to make all the
difference, isn't it?
And so then we all came up andall agreed that, I won't go into
details, but say Sarah was goingto concentrate on this aspect of
(19:15):
her problematic behaviour andthe husband was going, Arthur,
was going to concentrate onthis.
So they had some, I guess,marital homework to do until we
see each other the next time.
And that was fully met withdetermination and a willingness
and, yeah, we can do this.
We can make this work.
(19:37):
Can you do that?
Yeah.
that came about because we wereable to backtrack a bit with
each other with the both of themokay well you do that because of
this I'm not saying it's rightor wrong but we can understand
why you reacted this way whenyou know when Sarah behaves like
this that's why Arthur getsdefensive okay and you know,
(20:03):
Sarah gets defensive when Arthurdoes that, you know, so yeah, to
each other.
Exactly.
And so just having that openconversation about those
conversations without someonetelling, yeah, might be the
problem.
So what we're able to do is comeup with a very safe, and
boundary conversation of action.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, I do that.
(20:23):
And that works, can work reallywell.
Of course, not everyone's thesame.
No, we will see people.
We don't see couples together.
Obviously, we're not meant to dothat.
We see individuals who arethinking or we speak to them
about getting divorced.
And one of the things we have totell the court when we issue
divorce proceedings is have wespoken to them about marriage?
Gagnon's counsel can you pickyes or no?
(20:46):
And so we always say to, ifanyone's on the fence about if
they've not already left orthere's not going to be trauma
within the relationship andthey're a bit on the fence about
whether to separate, we willsend them off to someone like
you to have some therapeuticsupport and counseling through
this problem.
And most of the time, becausethey're not actually committed
to getting divorced, we don'thear back from them, which is
(21:07):
great.
Hopefully stay together.
And so we do see people that arereally confused whether they
want a divorce or not.
And that's a shock becauseyou've already made, it's a
shock to us because they've madean appointment with the
solicitor.
So you think they've made theirmind up about it.
Of course not, not necessarily.
We've gone so far down theprocess.
We've even been in courtproceedings and the couple have
(21:29):
reconciled.
And that happens as well.
And you can reconcile at anypoint.
You can reconcile at any point.
But in terms of the technicalside of it, you can stay all...
reverse or withdraw your divorceproceedings any point until that
final divorce order at anypoint.
So you can get really far downthe line and actually decide,
(21:51):
let's try it out.
So how far down the line is thatin terms of time?
So divorce itself can take fourto six months on a paper
procedure.
But if you're in financialproceedings, that's dragged out
for quite a long time.
It could be that you've been inproceedings for years.
And we did have that.
We did have that.
I remember it was about 10 yearsago.
We were right at the end and itwas a very, very acrimonious
(22:15):
farming divorce.
And the couple reconciled rightat the worst minute.
And we were completely shocked.
From a psychologist point ofview, I'm kind of going, oh, I
wonder what happened here.
What the circumstances were.
I think he begged to have herback and she went back.
Wow.
And that's the end of it.
(22:35):
I mean, and just as long as weprovide people with the right
tools and support, I always feelthat we've done our job.
Because like I say, I can't givethem that support that you can
give and you can't give thelegal advice I can give.
So absolutely, it's nice to beable to work with other local
professionals as much aspossible.
We're all part of that team,isn't it?
It is.
So maybe we could talk now alittle bit about children.
(22:57):
I know you don't work directlywith children, but...
we help people who areseparating or have separated try
and navigate arrangements fortheir children and sometimes
it's something they can have akitchen table discussion and
that is the best way because youare the best people to know
what's in the best interest ofyour own children, no one else.
(23:18):
Unfortunately, that doesn'talways happen.
We obviously see the worst casesbecause otherwise they wouldn't
need a solicitor.
but we like to try and exploremediation with divorce and
finances as well, but talk aboutparenting plans and putting
things in place, you know,without having to think about
court.
Do you help people navigatetogether or individually child
arrangements and parentingplans?
(23:39):
It's more about not so much theparenting plans.
I don't do a lot of that, but Icertainly, when we're having the
conversation about separationand divorce and there are
concerns about the children, Ialways say, Less is more.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Yeah, less is more.
Of course, depending on the age,you know, I mean, a
(24:02):
five-year-old or a six-year-oldor an eight-year-old or a
ten-year-old, okay, your adultchildren, you'd be taking them
years, yeah, and they can findit hard for different reasons.
But in terms of, I'm thinking,you know, your situation where
you've got young children.
Like primary school age.
Yeah, you know, just usingsimple age-appropriate language
(24:24):
It's really critical here thatit's not about judging or
criticising the other parentbecause that's a no-no.
Yeah.
It's just a no-no.
At the end of the day, this isabout two people who can't live
together anymore.
Yeah.
I don't need to know.
And they don't need to know why.
At some point, maybe along theline, that event might reveal
(24:48):
itself.
That's a separate matter.
But right now...
less is more so usingage-appropriate language not
criticizing or judging the otherperson because what is a seven
or eight year old going tounderstand they don't have the
sophisticated thinking systemsof an adult he's like so all
they know is they love mummy anddaddy and why are mummy and
daddy not together and uh whatdoes this mean for me you know
(25:12):
so yeah and so reallycommunicating that, you know,
mummy and daddy still love you.
This has got nothing to do withyou.
This is something that mummy anddaddy need to do.
Mummy and daddy still care foreach other.
Let's put that one in becausethe reason why divorce is so
emotionally difficult is becauseyou once loved this person or
(25:33):
maybe still do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:34):
You
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
know, you might not be in love with them.
Well, sometimes they are,especially if one person wants
out and one person still wantsin.
But basically there's still alevel of care there, you know,
despite the disagreements.
And it's important that thechild understands that, that
whilst mummy and daddy stillcare for each other, they can't
live together.
And what this means is that youall have to make separate living
(25:58):
arrangements, you know, andsometimes they can get excited
about that because it meansgetting a new bedroom or, of
course, that's the way they'regoing to understand that.
And that's okay.
That's okay for now.
But what's important isespecially when it comes to
parenting plans and seeing thechildren separately, that there
is a coming together and thechildren are witnessing a coming
together of the parents.
(26:19):
Promoting each other's care.
Absolutely.
And to go, okay, when are youoff going to go?
When are you seeing daddy?
And when are you seeing mommy?
And because we don't want to putchildren in a situation where
they have to choose choosesides.
Yeah.
And it's just going to be awful.
That's going to impact themgrowing up as well.
So we want to really try andmake it as seamless as possible.
(26:40):
It's going to be hard and theywill see moments when, you know,
mum and dad are having a privatecry and, you know, those things
are normal and that's okay.
When they see that, it's good.
Look, mum is just having a cry,you know, it's okay.
Sometimes we're just missing,missing daddy, you know, and And
I know that it can soundconfusing, but as long as you're
(27:02):
very clear that whilst they carefor each other and they love the
child, it's just becomedifficult in that way and that
they need to live apart.
And it's okay that we say that.
Yeah.
One thing, some of the veryexperienced family judges
actually in Manchester who siton these types of cases, and
(27:24):
obviously to get to that point,things have not been easier.
But I always remember...
One judge, I used to be in courtquite a lot when I was first
qualified because legal aid wasstill available.
So solicitors were doing a lotof their own hearings and that
was the norm.
And I was in court nearly everyday.
And I remember this one judge inManchester who, and I won't name
(27:45):
names, who always said at theend of the case, both parents
and he spoke to them directly healways said just remember one
day you used to love each otherand you love these children
every time we had a year everyhearing doesn't matter what
stage totally and it just grewon together a bit and and it was
yeah the judge that settledthose cases and it would often
settle without the need for afinal hearing but as he used to
(28:08):
face things like that and littlesnippets and nuggets of
information it really helped Thetarot.
It doesn't have to be difficult.
No, it's simple.
Yeah, it doesn't have to bedifficult.
It gets difficult.
It's what you make of thesituation.
We've always got choices.
And let's face it, no one evergets married to get divorced.
(28:30):
I know, I know.
Yeah.
You don't have to be madly inlove with them, obviously,
because you're divorced.
You're separating, obviously.
It's obvious.
But at the same time, there'sgot to be, in most situations,
there's a degree of care.
It's just a balancing act.
(28:52):
And you are dependent on yourex-spouse, so to speak, to want
to co-parent with you.
And that's one of the hardestthings when you're acting for
someone.
And you'll see this, that Youbelieve, I believe I'm dealing
with the person who's beenreasonable.
And actually it's the otherperson that's stopping it.
All their solicitors got in theway and has been quite hostile
(29:12):
and has really damagedrelations.
Well, that's where it can bedifficult, you know, for the
person who is having to dealwith the disruptive ex-partner
who, you know, it's about someof my work might involve
equipping them with theconfidence that Yeah, and
assertiveness to speak up andmaintain boundaries to say,
(29:35):
okay, I see what you're doing orI don't like this.
Yeah, it's about not reactingbecause if a moment you allow
the ego to enter the situation,you've got ego on ego, then
you're not, yeah, then it's onfor young and old, you know, and
this is, and if you've got kidsinvolved, you know, it just...
This makes it more difficult.
So the children have nothing todo with this.
(29:56):
They're completely innocent.
So we need to safeguard that.
We need to protect it.
And let's face it, if you've gottwo people who are divorcing,
they will always have arelationship simply because they
share children.
So you decide what kind ofrelationship you want, given
that You both dearly love yourchildren.
(30:18):
Your children are your world.
So why not put them first inthis instance and think about,
okay, despite our differences,let's work together.
Yes.
I don't agree with why you'releaving me and I don't agree
with what you did and da-da-da.
Regardless of that, what mattersis the children.
Exactly.
Because that's what you've gotin common.
Yes.
Sets the tone for them.
Yeah.
From the initial separationright through to those children.
(30:41):
Yeah, adults and...
their children being around and,you know, even at that point
grandparents not talking.
Absolutely.
I mean, I hear now as, I mean,when adults come to see me who
talk to me about their parentsdivorcing when they were young,
it's like, oh, yeah, myparents...
you know, got on better afterthe divorce.
(31:03):
They were like friends,obviously, just couldn't link
together.
But, you know, and the divorceproceedings were smooth and we
didn't get to see any of theugly side of things.
And this is great because, youknow, that person might have
been eight or nine when theirparents divorced.
And now as an adult in their 30sor 40s, they can talk about the
positive side of it.
(31:23):
I think, wow, this is, we needmore of this.
You know, the other alternativecould be quite Traumatic.
Yeah.
For their own relationship.
Yeah.
It is a cycle, isn't it?
Between in families.
Yeah.
And you must see second orthird.
Well, this is this issue.
It's what we call ancestralpatterns, you know, and how
(31:43):
these patterns of behavior justkeep repeating themselves.
And so it is an issue unless youactually press the pause button
and go, right, okay.
I don't have to go that way.
Yeah.
I can go another way, you know,and break those ancestral
patterns.
And not just with relationships,but it's about male roles and
female roles and what typicallyhappens and how we've been
(32:05):
socialised and throwing culturalbeliefs and, oh, that's just
another, it's about castingoneself.
Yeah.
You were a generation ago andmore people are reaching out for
help, I feel, anyway.
Yeah, overall, and it was lotsof work to be done, but I feel
that more people are reachingout, girl, either in
relationships or perhaps in aco-parenting situation and want
(32:28):
to break the cycle.
So that was really positive thatwe've served more of.
Great.
Absolutely.
So I think we've covered quite alot there.
Is there anything else that youwant to ask or talk about?
Just from a self-care point ofview, I think it's important to
recognise and appreciate thatseparating and divorcing is a
(32:50):
psychologically, emotionally adifficult thing to do, even in
the best of times.
So really important, and I oftenspeak to my clients about the
importance of self-care.
And when I say self-care, thatincludes a lot of different
things.
I'm sure we did a blog on this,actually, a while ago, and it
was far-reaching, but youprobably touched on things we
touched on.
(33:11):
Oh, right, okay, yeah, yeah.
Self-care in terms of evenlooking after yourself
financially.
Easy like that.
Yeah, or getting a financialadvisor, you know, as under my
tip.
Yeah, or maybe a nutritionist ifyou guys, you know.
So self-care includes having aregular sleep routine.
There are highly tumultuoustimes here.
You might be finding you'restaying up late and then
(33:31):
struggling to get up in themorning.
Really important that youmaintain a normal routine.
So go to bed at a normal time,getting up at the usual time.
Hydration.
I know these are very simplethings, but you'd be amazed when
people forget to drink water.
Yeah, or even forget to eat, youknow, because so many things are
(33:51):
happening around them.
You know, they're having to getback to you or get back to the
ex or, you know, all theseappointments.
Yeah, or look for a newapartment or look for new
schools for their children.
There's a lot to do.
So really important that youmaintain your self-care.
So that includes, you know,regular sleep routine,
Hydration, diet, exercise, huge.
(34:12):
I mean, who doesn't know thatthere's a relationship between
exercise and mental health?
We all know this, and it works.
So even if you're not into thewhole gym scene, even just going
for walks, making sure you'regetting some fresh air, or there
might be a hobby or an interest,or you might decide to take up a
Spanish class.
Who cares?
(34:32):
Anything that's good for you.
Whatever feeling good...
looks like, do.
Maybe five, 10 minutes a dayjournaling.
Maybe even writing a gratefullist.
What are you grateful for?
Yes, I understand you're stilldivorcing, but you're grateful
for your children.
You're grateful for other familymembers, your friends, your job.
(34:55):
What's positive?
What's really going well in yourlife that's worth celebrating?
I know it's hard, but There'sstill a life to live even whilst
you're separating and divorcing.
You still got a life to live.
Exactly.
Don't forget that.
Yeah.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
Knowing your personal rights,things like we all have 25, the
(35:16):
right to live happily, the rightto say no.
Yeah.
And that might be particularlyimportant when it comes to a
very demanding ex-partner.
Completely.
Yeah.
Or the right to say, I don'tknow, or the right to express
your thoughts and feelings.
UNKNOWN (35:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
So we all have rights, but because of our
experiences and our conditioningand our own narrative, if
everyone did that, it would be,world would be a better place,
wouldn't it?
And I think more marriages wouldsurvive if you're at number one
third.
Exactly.
And see, this is the thingpeople confuse and I get clients
who say this to me.
(35:52):
They say, but isn't lookingafter me selfish?
No, it's helping the rest ofyour family.
No, because the more you lookafter you, the more you've got
to give.
The less you give to yourself,the less you've got to give.
Selfish is when, nearly sworethen, selfish is when you don't
care about anyone else and allyou care about is yourself.
(36:12):
Yeah, that's different, right?
Okay, being, looking afteryourself means, and especially
if you're the type of personthat's very generous with their
time and energy, And if givingis so important to you, well,
even more important why you needto keep that tank full.
A bit like petrol in the car.
You need to keep topping up.
Otherwise, the car's going tosay, can't take you anywhere.
(36:33):
Can't do anything.
Sorry, it's a shutdown.
I know you want to go somewhere.
I know you want to do something,but you can't because you
haven't looked after me.
You haven't put petrol in thetank.
You haven't put time and energyin the tank.
And being around positive peopletoo.
Don't be around people who bringyou down.
Yes, I still probably.
But look, as can naturallyhappen, and I'm sure you've
(36:55):
heard of this, people then,family and friends start taking
sides, don't they?
You know, and that can happen.
But that's okay.
You don't have to be aroundpeople that bring you down that
way.
Be around positive people,people who inspire you, who
motivate you, who listen withoutjudgment.
Because the last thing you needis someone to judge you.
(37:16):
That's probably a good note toend on, self-care.
Probably the most importantthing when you're going through
anything traumatic.
And in any event.
There's also...
In any event.
Yeah, meditation and breathingand...
Absolutely.
All of those things thattherapists can help as well in
terms of coming up with aself-care plan.
Of course, big thing too, reallybig thing before we go is to
(37:39):
monitor social media exposure.
Absolutely.
Especially when...
When you're going through thoseemotional turmoils, yeah.
My advice to clients is removethe app.
Don't need to necessarily removeyourself, but just remove the
app to stop you fromautomatically going on Instagram
feed or LinkedIn to see whatthey're up to.
Because essentially that's whatit's all, not just seeing what
(38:01):
they're up to, it gets a bit of,there's a competition in terms
of well I'm out with the kidstoday I've taken them on an
excellent day out and the nextday he'll do the same and it's
like a war every day oncompetition or things yeah yeah
that needs to stop that feedsinto lots of jealousy and
feeling not worthy and it's justthe better the sooner those apps
(38:22):
are off your phone the betterselfie is really important it is
thanks so much for coming inHelen see you next time see you
later bye bye thank you everyonefor listening and we hope you
found today's podcast ininformative and useful.
If you'd like to reach out toHelen or the family team here at
Myerson, please see our contactdetails in the description.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to My Family Pod.
I'm Nicola Bright, family lawyerat Myers& Solicitors, an
all-service law firm based inAltrincham.
(00:22):
Today I am with my guest, HelenCaruzos, and she is a HCPC
Registered CounsellingPsychologist and Chartered
Member of the BritishPsychological Society.
And today we're going to talkabout the psychology of divorce
and separation, the impact ofADHD, co-parenting and self-care
tips.
(00:43):
Welcome, Helen, to our podcast.
(01:10):
Thank you, Nicola.
Thanks for the introduction andthe opportunity to be here
today.
No problem at all.
First of all, for our listeners,I'd really like you to tell me a
bit about your practice and thesorts of clients you work with
who might be going throughfamily separation and divorce.
Okay.
So a little bit about me.
As you can probably tell, I'mfrom Australia.
(01:32):
and not America or Canada.
So I've been a psychologist nowfor, I think I'm gonna start
showing my age, for about 27years.
I trained in Australia.
I've been in England now forabout 11 years.
I've had my own privatepractice.
as you said, in Altrium, inBowdoin specifically.
(01:52):
And I've had my own business nowfor about seven years.
I primarily work with adults,but when I say adults, 16-ish,
17-ish and above.
So I'm a child psychologist, soI primarily work with adults, as
I said.
And for various mental healthissues, the most common reason
why people come to see me isprobably anxiety, depression,
(02:13):
relationship issues.
work issues, grief and loss,PTSD, OCD.
So pretty much most of the sortof conditions or issues and
concerns that people might haveand it's impacting their mental
health.
(02:35):
I strive to be more eclectic orintegrated in my approach with
my clients.
So I don't have a one systemfits all, one approach fits all
client.
So I really do tailor make myintervention according to client
needs because everyone's uniqueand everyone's different.
Even if they are struggling withsimilar symptoms, everyone is
(02:58):
still different becauseeveryone's experiences are
different and unique to them.
So yeah, I also work a lot inADHD coaching.
So I also see adults who've beenrecently diagnosed with ADHD.
I can think of a few casesalready that I've got on at the
(03:19):
moment where there's childrenwith ADHD, but also the parents
who have been diagnosed in laterlife.
And it can impact if we'rehelping the parent or the spouse
with ADHD impacts on how, firstof all, readily available they
are because they might not wantto talk about difficult issues
or try and use distractiontechniques.
(03:41):
This is what they tell meanyway.
And also when we're trying totake instructions or explain
difficult things to them, whichlegal documents are difficult to
read for anyone.
And if you can't focus for verylong, they find it really
difficult to provideinstructions and we have to take
a really different approach withthose people, with those
clients.
So is it something you found?
(04:03):
Yes, that's exactly about thosesort of problems.
Okay, we're talking about legaldocuments here, but in my
experience working with ADHDclients, it will be around
problems concentrating andfocusing, whether that's at
work.
particularly if they're in adminor any kind of job which
requires procedures and aprocess where they have to read
(04:23):
documents or maybe reply back toemails.
So it is a common symptom thatthey will find it difficult to
sit and process information anddo what's required, not because
they don't want to.
And, you know, this is the thingthat really annoys me.
It's not about laziness.
No, it's, you know, in fact,they're the most active people
(04:45):
and determined people that youcan ever meet.
And often most success Yeah,exactly, exactly.
So it's not about laziness, justa real struggle because of those
deficiencies in the brain, theneurotransmitter, all the brain
chemicals, namely dopamine andnorepinephrine, they find it
difficult to do the sorts ofthings that perhaps you and I
take for granted.
(05:06):
So in that way, I provide thecoaching, which is about
providing strategies andtechniques to help them come up
with a system that works forthem you know so it may be that
they don't go from a to b like aneurotypical person but it might
(05:26):
be they need to go from a to cand then come back to b you know
it doesn't matter what themethod is what matters is the
outcome and when you look atproductivity efficiency outcome
levels if there's no differenceit doesn't matter how they get
there the point is they getthere you know and i think
that's the difference but Wherethe frustration and the anger
(05:49):
and the sadness and the anxietycomes in is when you've got
these neurodiverse clientstrying to fit in or A non-linear
brained person trying to fitinto a linear brained world.
It's not going to matchsometimes.
And a lot of the time itdoesn't, you know.
So this is the thing.
And I think workplaces arestarting to come around to that.
(06:11):
But I think we still have a longway to go.
And I always say every workplaceshould at least have one ADHD
person in it.
Because if you need ideas, yougo to an ADHD person because
they're brilliant.
So they're creative, usuallyabove average intelligence.
And at the same time, you know,the concern is, well, they might
not get to follow up.
They might not, you know, finishtasks.
(06:33):
That's okay.
But that's the whole point ofbeing in a team is to be able to
work out, well, you're great atthe ideas.
How about we give that to Nicolato maybe follow up, you know?
And so everyone brings theirstrengths.
Yeah.
It's like you have theknowledge, but they're not
necessarily the tools.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's when coaching canhelp you use different tools.
(06:54):
Yeah, exactly.
When an actual fact, when I...
It's interesting when peoplecome to see me for coaching,
it's never just about thecoaching.
So I always say, I actuallyoffer a mix.
So I come up with my own phraseand what I do offer is
therapeutic coaching.
Because when someone isstruggling with their ADHD
journey, particularlypre-diagnosed, it doesn't, well,
(07:15):
or throughout evenpost-diagnosis, you know, a
whole lifetime, it does impactpeople's self-esteem and
confidence.
And, you know, that little voicein your head that talks to you
about you, it's not particularlyhealthy or positive.
And so So how can it not be amental health issue?
So this is why I find I mightstart off with the coaching, but
then, and I do flag this withthem, we might need to stop and
(07:37):
go, right.
We just need to put that on theback burner for now, depending
on what the situation is.
Sometimes it's in parallel.
And we need to address what wecall in psychology unfinished
business.
And it might be a previoustrauma.
It might be a bad experiencethey've had that they've managed
(07:58):
to compartmentalize in some way.
So yeah, they've learned tocope, but they really haven't
processed a lot of that trauma.
The problem we saw is thatimpacts ADHD as well.
The problem we find,particularly with separation and
divorce proceedings, is ifyou're on the receiving end of
(08:21):
phone news and perhaps you arenot neurotypical or you may have
mental health conditions,undiagnosed or diagnosed, you're
then dealing with the shock ofsomeone telling you, I want to
leave the marriage and all theimplications of that.
Quite quickly then, you may findyourself in a solicitor's office
for the first time in your life,speaking to someone about really
(08:44):
in-depth private issues.
And a lot of divorce andfinancial work can be quite
front-loaded.
So within a matter of weeks, youcould be presented with a
divorce petition, a Form E,which is a very lengthy
petition, financial document,what is your centre way to
complete?
And if you have mental healthissues or ADHD, perhaps that's
(09:07):
going to be really difficult ifyou're on a tight timescale, set
by the other side, perhaps,because a family procedure can
sometimes be quite unforgivingif you are dealing with
particularly, perhaps aggressivesolicitors on the other side.
And we're only, you know, we'rekind of in a position where
(09:28):
we're only as good as theopponent because we have to
match them in some way.
And if they want documentsprovided within so many days, we
can try and calm down theinflammatory tone of
correspondence, et cetera.
But ultimately, if they'rethreatening corporate
proceedings, we have to respondto them.
It's out of our control if theyissue corporate proceedings.
(09:49):
And this person has just hadtheir whole world turned upside
down in a matter of weeks andit's those people that I think
need support more than anyoneand therapy and just to help
with the shock and I wanted tospeak to you about that really
and how how you deal with peoplewho come to you because
something's happened in theirlife.
Not because they think, oh, Ithink I need therapy.
(10:10):
Actually, something reallyterrible's happened to them.
And you're dealing with someonein a real state.
Yeah.
So do you see that often wherethey come to you for the first
time and they are just in shockand they've been told that their
husband or wife's leaving them?
Well, yeah, that happens.
Although both divorcing partnersare going through this stage, we
(10:32):
need to keep in mind that theone who's decided to leave the
marriage has had time, yes, tothink about this.
You know, they've probably gonethrough all the natural ups and
downs.
It's gone through the process ofindecision and what to do.
So they've already thought aboutit.
They've gone through some of thefeelings and, you know, it's
(10:53):
gotten to a point they mighthave had an argument and that's
it.
It's the straw that broke thecamel's back.
And for them, I'm not sayingit's not difficult for them
because they too are going to gothrough all the emotional
struggles you know, side ofthat.
But for the, so that's thelever, but the lefty, if we can
call that person, the one who'snow receiving that news, yes,
(11:16):
they're hunched off, you know,Even if they've both had
disagreements, they've bothmaybe even discussed divorce or
separation or, you know, maybewe come to an end.
Even with those conversations,it still comes as a shock
because there's a differencebetween talking about it and the
reality sets in when the leaveractually leaves the house.
(11:40):
Yes.
And I think that's when it'sreality, like I said, sits in
and go, wow, this is actuallyhappening.
Oh my goodness, how did we getto this point?
And that shock and denial, thiscan't be happening, can't be
happening to me.
So that phase can actually lasta few weeks, probably longer.
Sometimes even longer.
And also what happens sometimesis that, and I found this, is
(12:02):
they have spoken about it.
Perhaps one of them, theperson's telling the other
person the bad news has alreadyleft.
And then it's left for a while,sometimes weeks, sometimes
months and years.
And then they get a letter froma solicitor and it reopens it.
And it's a new level of shock.
It's like, oh, they really wantto get in the airs now.
And I see people sometimes yearsafter separation and they're
(12:24):
just as upset as they tell me.
They're as upset as they werebefore because they've had this
letter to say, I'm issuingdivorce proceedings.
With a nail in the coffin.
And they are devastated all overagain.
All over again.
Because maybe they've developeda way to, using that wording,
again, compartmentalize it wasbecause if I don't have to, they
don't have to deal with it.
If they don't have to signanything, do anything, then
(12:45):
it's, well, it's off the table.
It's not happening.
So it is a denial, isn't it?
It's like, it's not whathappened is because I'm not
doing anything.
And of course, when it getstriggered again, it might be a
letter.
It might be something that'sjust popped up.
And this is where we can gothrough, you know, and you
might've heard the five stagesof grief and loss because this
can be similar to that.
This is when, yes, the sadnessis, you know, starts to creep
(13:08):
back in again.
You might even get some angeraround that.
I don't know if you've seenclients that way, but when
they're stuck in that angerstate so this is not fair, this
shouldn't be happening.
It can last a long time.
Yeah, and this is where theymight not be particularly
compliant or cooperative withwhatever legal proceedings might
be required.
They want to be instructed.
It's really hard for us to tryand keep them calm and on a
(13:32):
level, and we're here to helpthem legally, and often some
days I come home and think, oh,I felt like a social worker
today, but it's just part of thejob, and you have to be
compassionate and considerate topeople at any stage of that
cycle.
Sure.
And...
And it's something that I feelquite passionate about a client
having a circle of supportaround them because I'm not
trained like you are.
(13:54):
Everyone can play to differentstrokes.
And if someone has a networkaround them of, you know, they
could have their solicitor, thentherapeutic support,
psychological support, financialsupport from a financial
advisor, perhaps, and have thisnetwork of people that they can
trust, it helps things movealong a little bit.
And I notice a massivedifference in clients before
(14:14):
they've had any sort ofpsychological help and after.
And it helps me do my job.
Yeah, because I can't do whatyou do.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's getting them to...
Well, you end up being a veryexpensive psychologist.
It's hard for a kite to know thedifference sometimes in...
oversharing information.
It's relevant, but not thatrelevant.
(14:35):
So spending half an hour on thephone talking about something
that happened in the marriage 20years ago was not going to be
relevant to this case now.
And they just need an outlet.
Well, they do.
And particularly, like you said,if their social network or
support system is not very good,because you're actually dealing
with the divorce.
I know it's You're dealing withthe legal side.
(14:56):
But the thing is, you're theclosest thing to that, short of
a therapist and anyone else.
You're in.
So, you know, they might notfully appreciate the importance
of maintaining those boundaries,that you're their legal advisor
and not their psychologist.
But the two are very...
can become quite a meshsometimes.
(15:17):
This is where the boundariesbecome blurred.
And this is why it's relevant tobe able to have the information
to say, we do have a network oftherapists or psychologists that
can help you.
Otherwise, you are not only,cause doing what you do as a
family lawyer, your work isalready tough.
And then on top of that, you'vegot someone who is continually
(15:42):
divulging really personalinformation about what's going
on.
Do you deal with people who, andI think the answer is going to
be yes, that go throughsomething like this and they are
in a state of shock, obviously,and then anger, denial.
but this brings up for themprevious trauma.
(16:02):
And they are, you realize inyour therapy that actually this
trauma here that from childhoodperhaps is now being brought up
by this new germ.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
A lot of the time, because thisreminds them of what it might've
felt or how it did feel onceupon a time when someone left
(16:23):
them.
It might be maybe they're, theirparents divorced.
So maybe that wasn'tparticularly amicable perhaps.
Maybe that was quite disruptiveand maybe there was a lot of
arguing going on and lots ofemotions and them witnessing a
lot of the struggle that theirparents might have had.
(16:44):
So if that is something that'sunresolved or hadn't been
addressed, and they just carriedon and just, you know, sometimes
it plays out in theirrelationships too.
So this might be, the divorcemight be indicative of
relationship patterns, you know,particularly if, earlier trauma
hadn't been addressed you knowso what ends up happening
(17:07):
potentially is a repeat ofcertain behaviors that impact
relationships um that's aninteresting point yeah not
always because sometimes it'sthe fact that they have gone
through a particularly baddivorce with their own parents
that they've been able to learnfrom that you know and they can
(17:28):
go right okay how do i navigatethis differently.
That's different because that'sabout awareness and having that
insight.
But ordinarily, people can, alot of the times, just repeat
those same patterns.
With repeating patterns, can youhelp couples who are not
thinking about divorce butreally want to work on their
marriage?
No, you work with them.
(17:48):
Absolutely.
Actually, it came up yesterday,did it?
Yeah, so yesterday I was seeingsomeone who, I was seeing the
husband on a one-to-one for hisADHD.
Yeah, interesting we're talkingabout that.
And, of course, with ADHD, whenpeople are struggling to manage,
that can impact relationships ina really big way, and this one
(18:09):
clearly did.
And so what I did was I invitedthe wife in.
into one of our sessions just toget her input about the impact
that he's ADHD.
It wasn't about blame and itwasn't about right, wrong.
It was about, okay, where arethe struggles and where are the
pockets for improvement here?
Because, yes, like I previouslysaid, they were talking about
(18:32):
divorce.
Yeah, they were pretty muchkeeping to themselves in
separate bedrooms.
Okay.
And I had talked about it.
But then what we were able to,this is the rewarding part of my
job, is okay, so what do youreally want to do here, guys?
How do you feel about eachother?
Is there enough invested in thisrelationship to want to try and
do things differently?
(18:52):
And they both said, yes.
Oh, brilliant.
Right, well, that's a greatstarting point because now
you've got buy-in.
So if you've got buy-in, thenthat's going to make all the
difference, isn't it?
And so then we all came up andall agreed that, I won't go into
details, but say Sarah was goingto concentrate on this aspect of
(19:15):
her problematic behaviour andthe husband was going, Arthur,
was going to concentrate onthis.
So they had some, I guess,marital homework to do until we
see each other the next time.
And that was fully met withdetermination and a willingness
and, yeah, we can do this.
We can make this work.
(19:37):
Can you do that?
Yeah.
that came about because we wereable to backtrack a bit with
each other with the both of themokay well you do that because of
this I'm not saying it's rightor wrong but we can understand
why you reacted this way whenyou know when Sarah behaves like
this that's why Arthur getsdefensive okay and you know,
(20:03):
Sarah gets defensive when Arthurdoes that, you know, so yeah, to
each other.
Exactly.
And so just having that openconversation about those
conversations without someonetelling, yeah, might be the
problem.
So what we're able to do is comeup with a very safe, and
boundary conversation of action.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, I do that.
(20:23):
And that works, can work reallywell.
Of course, not everyone's thesame.
No, we will see people.
We don't see couples together.
Obviously, we're not meant to dothat.
We see individuals who arethinking or we speak to them
about getting divorced.
And one of the things we have totell the court when we issue
divorce proceedings is have wespoken to them about marriage?
Gagnon's counsel can you pickyes or no?
(20:46):
And so we always say to, ifanyone's on the fence about if
they've not already left orthere's not going to be trauma
within the relationship andthey're a bit on the fence about
whether to separate, we willsend them off to someone like
you to have some therapeuticsupport and counseling through
this problem.
And most of the time, becausethey're not actually committed
to getting divorced, we don'thear back from them, which is
(21:07):
great.
Hopefully stay together.
And so we do see people that arereally confused whether they
want a divorce or not.
And that's a shock becauseyou've already made, it's a
shock to us because they've madean appointment with the
solicitor.
So you think they've made theirmind up about it.
Of course not, not necessarily.
We've gone so far down theprocess.
We've even been in courtproceedings and the couple have
(21:29):
reconciled.
And that happens as well.
And you can reconcile at anypoint.
You can reconcile at any point.
But in terms of the technicalside of it, you can stay all...
reverse or withdraw your divorceproceedings any point until that
final divorce order at anypoint.
So you can get really far downthe line and actually decide,
(21:51):
let's try it out.
So how far down the line is thatin terms of time?
So divorce itself can take fourto six months on a paper
procedure.
But if you're in financialproceedings, that's dragged out
for quite a long time.
It could be that you've been inproceedings for years.
And we did have that.
We did have that.
I remember it was about 10 yearsago.
We were right at the end and itwas a very, very acrimonious
(22:15):
farming divorce.
And the couple reconciled rightat the worst minute.
And we were completely shocked.
From a psychologist point ofview, I'm kind of going, oh, I
wonder what happened here.
What the circumstances were.
I think he begged to have herback and she went back.
Wow.
And that's the end of it.
(22:35):
I mean, and just as long as weprovide people with the right
tools and support, I always feelthat we've done our job.
Because like I say, I can't givethem that support that you can
give and you can't give thelegal advice I can give.
So absolutely, it's nice to beable to work with other local
professionals as much aspossible.
We're all part of that team,isn't it?
It is.
So maybe we could talk now alittle bit about children.
(22:57):
I know you don't work directlywith children, but...
we help people who areseparating or have separated try
and navigate arrangements fortheir children and sometimes
it's something they can have akitchen table discussion and
that is the best way because youare the best people to know
what's in the best interest ofyour own children, no one else.
(23:18):
Unfortunately, that doesn'talways happen.
We obviously see the worst casesbecause otherwise they wouldn't
need a solicitor.
but we like to try and exploremediation with divorce and
finances as well, but talk aboutparenting plans and putting
things in place, you know,without having to think about
court.
Do you help people navigatetogether or individually child
arrangements and parentingplans?
(23:39):
It's more about not so much theparenting plans.
I don't do a lot of that, but Icertainly, when we're having the
conversation about separationand divorce and there are
concerns about the children, Ialways say, Less is more.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Yeah, less is more.
Of course, depending on the age,you know, I mean, a
(24:02):
five-year-old or a six-year-oldor an eight-year-old or a
ten-year-old, okay, your adultchildren, you'd be taking them
years, yeah, and they can findit hard for different reasons.
But in terms of, I'm thinking,you know, your situation where
you've got young children.
Like primary school age.
Yeah, you know, just usingsimple age-appropriate language
(24:24):
It's really critical here thatit's not about judging or
criticising the other parentbecause that's a no-no.
Yeah.
It's just a no-no.
At the end of the day, this isabout two people who can't live
together anymore.
Yeah.
I don't need to know.
And they don't need to know why.
At some point, maybe along theline, that event might reveal
(24:48):
itself.
That's a separate matter.
But right now...
less is more so usingage-appropriate language not
criticizing or judging the otherperson because what is a seven
or eight year old going tounderstand they don't have the
sophisticated thinking systemsof an adult he's like so all
they know is they love mummy anddaddy and why are mummy and
daddy not together and uh whatdoes this mean for me you know
(25:12):
so yeah and so reallycommunicating that, you know,
mummy and daddy still love you.
This has got nothing to do withyou.
This is something that mummy anddaddy need to do.
Mummy and daddy still care foreach other.
Let's put that one in becausethe reason why divorce is so
emotionally difficult is becauseyou once loved this person or
(25:33):
maybe still do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:34):
You
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
know, you might not be in love with them.
Well, sometimes they are,especially if one person wants
out and one person still wantsin.
But basically there's still alevel of care there, you know,
despite the disagreements.
And it's important that thechild understands that, that
whilst mummy and daddy stillcare for each other, they can't
live together.
And what this means is that youall have to make separate living
(25:58):
arrangements, you know, andsometimes they can get excited
about that because it meansgetting a new bedroom or, of
course, that's the way they'regoing to understand that.
And that's okay.
That's okay for now.
But what's important isespecially when it comes to
parenting plans and seeing thechildren separately, that there
is a coming together and thechildren are witnessing a coming
together of the parents.
(26:19):
Promoting each other's care.
Absolutely.
And to go, okay, when are youoff going to go?
When are you seeing daddy?
And when are you seeing mommy?
And because we don't want to putchildren in a situation where
they have to choose choosesides.
Yeah.
And it's just going to be awful.
That's going to impact themgrowing up as well.
So we want to really try andmake it as seamless as possible.
(26:40):
It's going to be hard and theywill see moments when, you know,
mum and dad are having a privatecry and, you know, those things
are normal and that's okay.
When they see that, it's good.
Look, mum is just having a cry,you know, it's okay.
Sometimes we're just missing,missing daddy, you know, and And
I know that it can soundconfusing, but as long as you're
(27:02):
very clear that whilst they carefor each other and they love the
child, it's just becomedifficult in that way and that
they need to live apart.
And it's okay that we say that.
Yeah.
One thing, some of the veryexperienced family judges
actually in Manchester who siton these types of cases, and
(27:24):
obviously to get to that point,things have not been easier.
But I always remember...
One judge, I used to be in courtquite a lot when I was first
qualified because legal aid wasstill available.
So solicitors were doing a lotof their own hearings and that
was the norm.
And I was in court nearly everyday.
And I remember this one judge inManchester who, and I won't name
(27:45):
names, who always said at theend of the case, both parents
and he spoke to them directly healways said just remember one
day you used to love each otherand you love these children
every time we had a year everyhearing doesn't matter what
stage totally and it just grewon together a bit and and it was
yeah the judge that settledthose cases and it would often
settle without the need for afinal hearing but as he used to
(28:08):
face things like that and littlesnippets and nuggets of
information it really helped Thetarot.
It doesn't have to be difficult.
No, it's simple.
Yeah, it doesn't have to bedifficult.
It gets difficult.
It's what you make of thesituation.
We've always got choices.
And let's face it, no one evergets married to get divorced.
(28:30):
I know, I know.
Yeah.
You don't have to be madly inlove with them, obviously,
because you're divorced.
You're separating, obviously.
It's obvious.
But at the same time, there'sgot to be, in most situations,
there's a degree of care.
It's just a balancing act.
(28:52):
And you are dependent on yourex-spouse, so to speak, to want
to co-parent with you.
And that's one of the hardestthings when you're acting for
someone.
And you'll see this, that Youbelieve, I believe I'm dealing
with the person who's beenreasonable.
And actually it's the otherperson that's stopping it.
All their solicitors got in theway and has been quite hostile
(29:12):
and has really damagedrelations.
Well, that's where it can bedifficult, you know, for the
person who is having to dealwith the disruptive ex-partner
who, you know, it's about someof my work might involve
equipping them with theconfidence that Yeah, and
assertiveness to speak up andmaintain boundaries to say,
(29:35):
okay, I see what you're doing orI don't like this.
Yeah, it's about not reactingbecause if a moment you allow
the ego to enter the situation,you've got ego on ego, then
you're not, yeah, then it's onfor young and old, you know, and
this is, and if you've got kidsinvolved, you know, it just...
This makes it more difficult.
So the children have nothing todo with this.
(29:56):
They're completely innocent.
So we need to safeguard that.
We need to protect it.
And let's face it, if you've gottwo people who are divorcing,
they will always have arelationship simply because they
share children.
So you decide what kind ofrelationship you want, given
that You both dearly love yourchildren.
(30:18):
Your children are your world.
So why not put them first inthis instance and think about,
okay, despite our differences,let's work together.
Yes.
I don't agree with why you'releaving me and I don't agree
with what you did and da-da-da.
Regardless of that, what mattersis the children.
Exactly.
Because that's what you've gotin common.
Yes.
Sets the tone for them.
Yeah.
From the initial separationright through to those children.
(30:41):
Yeah, adults and...
their children being around and,you know, even at that point
grandparents not talking.
Absolutely.
I mean, I hear now as, I mean,when adults come to see me who
talk to me about their parentsdivorcing when they were young,
it's like, oh, yeah, myparents...
you know, got on better afterthe divorce.
(31:03):
They were like friends,obviously, just couldn't link
together.
But, you know, and the divorceproceedings were smooth and we
didn't get to see any of theugly side of things.
And this is great because, youknow, that person might have
been eight or nine when theirparents divorced.
And now as an adult in their 30sor 40s, they can talk about the
positive side of it.
(31:23):
I think, wow, this is, we needmore of this.
You know, the other alternativecould be quite Traumatic.
Yeah.
For their own relationship.
Yeah.
It is a cycle, isn't it?
Between in families.
Yeah.
And you must see second orthird.
Well, this is this issue.
It's what we call ancestralpatterns, you know, and how
(31:43):
these patterns of behavior justkeep repeating themselves.
And so it is an issue unless youactually press the pause button
and go, right, okay.
I don't have to go that way.
Yeah.
I can go another way, you know,and break those ancestral
patterns.
And not just with relationships,but it's about male roles and
female roles and what typicallyhappens and how we've been
(32:05):
socialised and throwing culturalbeliefs and, oh, that's just
another, it's about castingoneself.
Yeah.
You were a generation ago andmore people are reaching out for
help, I feel, anyway.
Yeah, overall, and it was lotsof work to be done, but I feel
that more people are reachingout, girl, either in
relationships or perhaps in aco-parenting situation and want
(32:28):
to break the cycle.
So that was really positive thatwe've served more of.
Great.
Absolutely.
So I think we've covered quite alot there.
Is there anything else that youwant to ask or talk about?
Just from a self-care point ofview, I think it's important to
recognise and appreciate thatseparating and divorcing is a
(32:50):
psychologically, emotionally adifficult thing to do, even in
the best of times.
So really important, and I oftenspeak to my clients about the
importance of self-care.
And when I say self-care, thatincludes a lot of different
things.
I'm sure we did a blog on this,actually, a while ago, and it
was far-reaching, but youprobably touched on things we
touched on.
(33:11):
Oh, right, okay, yeah, yeah.
Self-care in terms of evenlooking after yourself
financially.
Easy like that.
Yeah, or getting a financialadvisor, you know, as under my
tip.
Yeah, or maybe a nutritionist ifyou guys, you know.
So self-care includes having aregular sleep routine.
There are highly tumultuoustimes here.
You might be finding you'restaying up late and then
(33:31):
struggling to get up in themorning.
Really important that youmaintain a normal routine.
So go to bed at a normal time,getting up at the usual time.
Hydration.
I know these are very simplethings, but you'd be amazed when
people forget to drink water.
Yeah, or even forget to eat, youknow, because so many things are
(33:51):
happening around them.
You know, they're having to getback to you or get back to the
ex or, you know, all theseappointments.
Yeah, or look for a newapartment or look for new
schools for their children.
There's a lot to do.
So really important that youmaintain your self-care.
So that includes, you know,regular sleep routine,
Hydration, diet, exercise, huge.
(34:12):
I mean, who doesn't know thatthere's a relationship between
exercise and mental health?
We all know this, and it works.
So even if you're not into thewhole gym scene, even just going
for walks, making sure you'regetting some fresh air, or there
might be a hobby or an interest,or you might decide to take up a
Spanish class.
Who cares?
(34:32):
Anything that's good for you.
Whatever feeling good...
looks like, do.
Maybe five, 10 minutes a dayjournaling.
Maybe even writing a gratefullist.
What are you grateful for?
Yes, I understand you're stilldivorcing, but you're grateful
for your children.
You're grateful for other familymembers, your friends, your job.
(34:55):
What's positive?
What's really going well in yourlife that's worth celebrating?
I know it's hard, but There'sstill a life to live even whilst
you're separating and divorcing.
You still got a life to live.
Exactly.
Don't forget that.
Yeah.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
Knowing your personal rights,things like we all have 25, the
(35:16):
right to live happily, the rightto say no.
Yeah.
And that might be particularlyimportant when it comes to a
very demanding ex-partner.
Completely.
Yeah.
Or the right to say, I don'tknow, or the right to express
your thoughts and feelings.
UNKNOWN (35:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
So we all have rights, but because of our
experiences and our conditioningand our own narrative, if
everyone did that, it would be,world would be a better place,
wouldn't it?
And I think more marriages wouldsurvive if you're at number one
third.
Exactly.
And see, this is the thingpeople confuse and I get clients
who say this to me.
(35:52):
They say, but isn't lookingafter me selfish?
No, it's helping the rest ofyour family.
No, because the more you lookafter you, the more you've got
to give.
The less you give to yourself,the less you've got to give.
Selfish is when, nearly sworethen, selfish is when you don't
care about anyone else and allyou care about is yourself.
(36:12):
Yeah, that's different, right?
Okay, being, looking afteryourself means, and especially
if you're the type of personthat's very generous with their
time and energy, And if givingis so important to you, well,
even more important why you needto keep that tank full.
A bit like petrol in the car.
You need to keep topping up.
Otherwise, the car's going tosay, can't take you anywhere.
(36:33):
Can't do anything.
Sorry, it's a shutdown.
I know you want to go somewhere.
I know you want to do something,but you can't because you
haven't looked after me.
You haven't put petrol in thetank.
You haven't put time and energyin the tank.
And being around positive peopletoo.
Don't be around people who bringyou down.
Yes, I still probably.
But look, as can naturallyhappen, and I'm sure you've
(36:55):
heard of this, people then,family and friends start taking
sides, don't they?
You know, and that can happen.
But that's okay.
You don't have to be aroundpeople that bring you down that
way.
Be around positive people,people who inspire you, who
motivate you, who listen withoutjudgment.
Because the last thing you needis someone to judge you.
(37:16):
That's probably a good note toend on, self-care.
Probably the most importantthing when you're going through
anything traumatic.
And in any event.
There's also...
In any event.
Yeah, meditation and breathingand...
Absolutely.
All of those things thattherapists can help as well in
terms of coming up with aself-care plan.
Of course, big thing too, reallybig thing before we go is to
(37:39):
monitor social media exposure.
Absolutely.
Especially when...
When you're going through thoseemotional turmoils, yeah.
My advice to clients is removethe app.
Don't need to necessarily removeyourself, but just remove the
app to stop you fromautomatically going on Instagram
feed or LinkedIn to see whatthey're up to.
Because essentially that's whatit's all, not just seeing what
(38:01):
they're up to, it gets a bit of,there's a competition in terms
of well I'm out with the kidstoday I've taken them on an
excellent day out and the nextday he'll do the same and it's
like a war every day oncompetition or things yeah yeah
that needs to stop that feedsinto lots of jealousy and
feeling not worthy and it's justthe better the sooner those apps
(38:22):
are off your phone the betterselfie is really important it is
thanks so much for coming inHelen see you next time see you
later bye bye thank you everyonefor listening and we hope you
found today's podcast ininformative and useful.
If you'd like to reach out toHelen or the family team here at
Myerson, please see our contactdetails in the description.
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