Seacology is a charitable organization headquartered in Berkeley, CA that works to preserve island ecosystems and cultures around the world, as well as conducting annual educational ecotourism trips. Founded in 1991 with the work of ethnobotanist Paul Alan Cox, the high risk of extinction for island fauna and the decline in coral reef ecosystems drives Seacology's focus on projects in which villagers agree to help protect living nature for a specified time in return for things like new buildings, electricity, clean water, or other services - and they work with local businesses to make that happen.
To date, Seacology has completed:
- 441 Projects
- in 70 Countries
- with 1.5 million acres protected
Plus, they helped construct new facilities and provided programs including educational materials, vital medical services, and environmental training. In addition to helping local people on islands like those in Fiji, the Philippines, and Samoa, their projects have helped protect mangrove forests, sea turtles, and one of the rarest primates in the world. Seacology also awards an annual Prize to indigenous islanders for their efforts in conservation and cultural preservation. It has won the United Nations Climate Secretariat's Momentum for Change climate action award, was nominated for the 2020 Nobel Peace Prize, and was the top recipient last year of the $250K Lipman Family Prize for outstanding vision, inspiration and impact.
During our conversation, he talks about the importance of local involvement in conservation efforts. He points out the importance of building trust with local communities, often through cultural exchanges and understanding. A key thread during our hour long conversation is the importance o
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Resilient Earth Podcast, where
we talk with speakers from theUnited States and around the
world about the critical issuesfacing our planet and the
positive actions people aretaking, from the tiniest of
actions to the grandest ofgestures, so that we can
continue to thrive and survivefor generations to come.
(00:32):
I'm Leanne Lindsey, producerand host, along with co-hosts
and co-producers Scott and TreeMercer of Mindenoma, whale and
Seal Study, located on the SouthMendocino and North Sonoma
coasts.
The music for this podcast isby Eric Alleman, an
(00:55):
international composer, pianistand writer living in the Sea
Range.
Discover more of his music,animations, ballet, stage and
film work at ericalamancom.
You can find Resilient Earth onSpotify, apple and Amazon
(01:18):
Podcasts, iheartradio, youtube,soundcloud and wherever you find
your podcasts.
Today we are speaking withDwayne Silverstein, executive
(01:53):
Director of SeaCology, acharitable organization
headquartered in Berkeley,california.
Seacology works to preserveisland ecosystems and cultures
around the world, as well asconducting annual educational
ecotourism trips.
Island fauna and flora and thedecline in coral reef ecosystems
(02:29):
drive Seacology's focus onprojects in which villagers
agree to help protectterrestrial or marine habitats
for a specified time in returnfor things they might need like
new buildings, electricity,clean water or other services,
and Seacology works with localbusinesses to make those things
(02:49):
happen.
To date, seacology hascompleted 441 projects in 70
countries, which has resulted inover 1.5 million acres
protected.
As we've discussed before,living nature is more valuable
(03:10):
than dead nature, and Seacologyis showing how this is done.
At the same time, they havehelped construct new facilities
and provided programs includingeducational materials, vital
medical services andenvironmental training.
In addition to helping localpeople on islands like those in
(03:32):
Fiji, the Philippines and Samoa,their projects have helped
protect mangrove forests, seaturtles and one of the rarest
primates in the world seaturtles and one of the rarest
primates in the world.
Sea College also awards anannual prize to indigenous
islanders for their efforts inconservation and cultural
(03:52):
preservation.
The organization has alsohelped raise emergency funds
following destructive tsunamisand other natural disasters.
It has won the United NationsClimate Secretariat's Momentum
for Change Climate Action Award.
It was nominated for the 2020Nobel Peace Prize and was the
(04:16):
top recipient last year of the$250,000 Lippman Family Prize
for Outstanding Vision,inspiration and Impact.
Prior to heading psychology,duane Silverstein served for 18
years as executive director ofthe Goldman Fund, a San
(04:37):
Francisco-based philanthropicfoundation, where he oversaw the
Goldman Environmental Prize,which takes place annually, and
just happened in San Franciscoagain last month.
Sea College operated as avolunteer-only organization
until 1999, when Silverstein wasbrought on as its first
(05:00):
employee.
He has served more than twodecades as executive director,
served more than two decades asexecutive director and in the
course of his work, silversteinhas traveled to 184 islands in
74 countries.
Having worked in island andmarine conservation for 30 years
, silverstein has authored 30articles for newspapers and
magazines such as AsianGeographic, ocean Geographic,
(05:25):
fathoms, the Oakland Tribune andother publications.
He has appeared in Scuba DivingMagazine, the Diver's Alert
Network and the San FranciscoChronicle.
In 2022, scuba Diving Magazinenamed Silverstein a recipient of
its Sea Hero Award.
He holds a BA degree from NewYork University and an MA from
(05:49):
UC Berkeley.
During our upcoming conversation, you'll hear him talk about the
importance of local involvementin conservation efforts,
particularly in relation toseagrass and coral reef
protection.
He highlighted the need foreducation and practical
solutions, such as eco-friendlyanchoring systems for boats, to
(06:14):
prevent damage to theseecosystems.
Dewayne shares their ecotourisminitiatives and responsible
ecotourism practices.
He also pointed out theimportance of building trust
with local communities, oftenthrough cultural exchanges and
(06:34):
understanding.
A key thread throughout ourhour-long conversation is the
importance of valuing nature forits ongoing services rather
than extracting it for theshort-term gain.
Just as we discussed with RalphChami of Blue Green Future in
(06:57):
previous episodes, that's whatour goal is here at Resilient
Earth Radio to talk about thecritical issues and positive
actions that affect our planetand our ability to continue
living on it for generations tocome.
I'm Leanne Lindsay, producerand host, and also I want to
(07:19):
thank you so much for listeningand supporting us.
We join now the conversation inprogress that we recorded this
week, starting with theorganization.
Give us the scope of theprojects that you've got going,
(07:39):
when the organization gotstarted, how it got started,
kind of give us a feel for whatSeacology is all about, and I'm
again very pleased I met you atthe International Ocean Film
Festival, your organization,that is.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Okay, well, seacology has a very unique mission of
protecting the habitats andcultures of islands worldwide,
and let me start by saying howwe were founded, because it
describes very much what we do,and then hopefully you'll remind
me to segue into why this is soimportant.
(08:16):
So many years ago let's talkabout 30 years ago or so a Dr
Paul Cox, who's an ethnobotanistwho works with indigenous
people to see if there are curesfor illnesses in native plants
and trees and things like that,he was studying the flora of a
very remote village calledFaliolupo, in what was then
(08:39):
called Western Samoa now it'scalled Samoa and after he was
there, living amongst the localpeople for a few weeks, he heard
the earth moving equipment comein to start to cut down a
30,000 acre pristine rainforest.
And Paul Cox, who happens tospeak about 12 or 13 languages,
(09:01):
including many languages of thePacific, went and asked the
chiefs well, what's going on?
Why is this happening?
And they told him that thegovernment of Samoa told them if
they didn't build a betterschool the school at the time
was a ramshackle hut reallyabout to fall down that they
(09:21):
would remove the teachers andthere'd be no local education
for their kids.
Now, it doesn't matter whatbackground you come from rich,
poor, whatever continent,whatever color everybody wants
their kids to have a goodeducation.
So they thought, and theythought, and they said how can
we fund this school?
They were on a barter economicsystem, so the per capita income
(09:46):
annual was $100 per person, sothere's no way they're going to
build a school.
So Paul Cox said how about if?
we build you the school, wouldyou then, and gave you the money
to pay off the loggers, wouldyou then turn this 30,000 acre
(10:07):
first growth rainforest into apermanent reserve?
And they said yes, of course.
And there was only one problem.
Paul was bluffing, there wasn'ta we at the time, but
psychology was then formed, sortof on the spot, and the money
was raised to build a betterschool.
(10:28):
And also, psychology raised themoney to pay off the buy out
the loggers from their contract,and this is a really hands-on
conservation.
So one of the chiefs and youprobably know the image of
Samoan chiefs, they're veryburly and muscular and all that
he runs out with a machete tothe loggers still working there
(10:50):
and says in Samoan to them ifyou don't leave right now,
you'll be dust of the earth, andthat's what I call effective
conservation.
So they ran away Very effective, yeah, very effective.
And psychology then providedthe money to build a school and
I've since been there and theschool is quite nice.
(11:13):
I mean it's about five or sixrooms, it's large and it's got
all the features you'd want in aschool, at least in the tropics
.
Originally the villagers saidthat okay, they're going to make
this a 50-year term for thisreserve.
But they just liked it so muchthey made it permanent.
So now 30,000 acres rainforestwhich would have been cut down
(11:37):
is now preserved permanently andkind of at the same time, a a
few people involved withpsychology said okay, this
worked so well here.
It seems like a great model.
Why don't we do this on islandsthroughout the world?
This being this kind of win-winthing, we'll give you a school,
(11:58):
because that's what you want,not what we say you want, and in
return you set aside thisforest or this coral reef or
this mangrove area, et cetera,et cetera.
So that's proven to be veryeffective.
The island villagers where wework love it.
I mean, initially the reactionis you're going to give us
(12:20):
something.
We never get something, and youknow.
And then, if you ask them more,what will happen with you know,
with other types ofconservation organizations?
They will say well, you see, wecan't release the money to
preserve this coral reef untilwe're sure it's one of the most
(12:41):
threatened coral reefs in thearea.
So what does that mean?
Well, we'll hire a scientist at$60,000 a year to come with
more than the income of anyentire village there, usually to
come and do a longitudinalstudy for the next 12 years and
then we'll decide if it's worthsaving.
(13:01):
And this is unintentionally,rather insulting to the local
people In our view at psychology, if and this always happens
villagers say gee, my fatherused to fish for my
great-grandfather used to fish,for you know, three hours and
have more than we could dealwith, and grandfather five hours
(13:24):
and more than we can deal with,and then my father's out there
seven hours a day.
It's not quite enough.
I'm out there nine hours a dayand it's not even close to
enough.
That's proof enough for us.
In fact, the reality is such ahigh percentage of tropical well
, of coral reefs or tropicalforests are threatened we feel
(13:52):
confident that that's okay.
That's enough proof that weneed and we cut the deal, if
they would like to, with thelocal villagers.
Now let me take the digressionI said I would, because I think
it's very important for yourlisteners.
Why?
Why is psychology doing thisand focusing only on islands?
And there are a few shockingreasons.
I think your viewers andlisteners will be surprised.
In recorded history, all of thehistory of this earth, 80% of
(14:19):
all plant and animal extinctionshave taken place on islands.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I noticed that on your website it's very important
to understand and who knows?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
that Nobody knows that I didn't before I started
at psychology.
Islands make up about 5% of theworld's landmass and are now
home to 40% of all criticallyendangered species.
And for these reasons, andothers like it, a biologist,
storrs Olson with theSmithsonian Institute, has said
(14:50):
the extinction rate on islandsis one of the swiftest and most
profound biological catastrophesin the history of the earth.
That's so important.
If you don't mind, I'm going toquickly repeat it, storrs Olson
the extinction rate on islandsis one of the swiftest and most
profound biological catastrophesin the history of the Earth.
(15:14):
Now let me round that out withan anecdote or two because I
think that it makes it easierfor people to relate to this.
The United States has oneisland state, of course, hawaii.
Hawaii makes up two tenths ofone percent of the landmass of
the US and has been home in ourhistory to 72 percent of all
(15:37):
extinctions in our country 72percent.
Two tenths of one percent, 72percent.
Here's one that's even moremind-blowing, and that's Lord
Howe Island, which is a smallishisland in the Coral Sea off of
Australia.
In its history, it has beenhome to more bird species and
subspecies extinctions.
(15:58):
Get ready for this Then Africa,asia and Europe combined.
And there's nothing special inthis regard about Lord Howe
Island, it's just happened tohave that statistics.
So then the question is, why,and why this crisis on islands?
And it's up to the 18th century,islands were, as the word
(16:21):
implies, very isolated.
There was no contact withoutsiders, certainly not with
Westerners or whatever.
So when first contact was made,introduced species started
coming to the islands.
So you have two problems here.
You've got species that did notneed to develop any protection
from, let's say, rats coming offof the ropes of a ship.
(16:42):
And the second problem is ifyou have a species of bird,
let's say Asia, just to pick arandom continent, very likely
there'll be hundreds of coloniesof them spread out, thousands
maybe, or at the worst case,five or six or something like
that.
With small islands generally,there'll be one colony of this
(17:05):
bird X, whatever the bird is,and so the rats come up the
trees and start eating the birds.
Or New Zealand that they don'teven fly like the Kiwis and
whatever, so they're easypickings.
That's it Then, with islands.
More recently, you add otherthings that have come from
contact, such as acid rain,global warming, introduced
(17:29):
species I mentioned, and what'sperhaps the most devastating is
rising seas.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I was just about to say that too, because we talked
with the president of Sea TurtleOrganization, brad Mayhill.
I heard that interview?
Yes, right, so there are theirnesting grounds.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Exactly and think of what this means for islands.
First of all, a lot of people Iwould dare say maybe the
majority think of climate change.
The real bad stuff is going tohappen in the distant future,
and that's not true.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
On islands.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It's happening now and one of the first bits of
evidence of that are from risingseas.
There's more intrusion of waterwhen there's a storm and
there's always storms in thetropics.
So again you hear just you know, I've heard this many times
from talking to local islandersthat you know again about not
(18:25):
that long ago, 40, 50 years agoif a storm came it would intrude
15 or 20 feet or whatever.
And, long story short, now it'sintruding an eighth of a mile
or whatever, and that's reallybad news.
And again it's happening now.
This is not a future thing.
It's really bad news becausethere's a lot of spare room on
(18:48):
many islands.
So that means when the tidesare getting higher from the
storms, from the surges, thatthey're intruding on
agricultural land and we'retalking saltwater coming in,
which means okay, can't farm onthis land for another 30 years
till all the saltwater is washedout.
(19:08):
So it is happening as we speak,sadly.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And I would imagine too, because of the rise of
waste around our world,especially accumulating on
islands and lower incomecountries, plastic being a big
part of that, that would alsocome in with that.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
It's absolutely correct.
And it's you know at first.
I'm now accustomed to it.
But it was startling to bewalking along a beach in island
X, y or Z and then pick up sometrash, just to you know, just to
be a do-gooder.
And then you look, you know,made in Canada, made responsible
(20:01):
for who knows the exact figure,but 0.0000001% of all the
carbon in the atmosphere.
But they're the first to sufferthe consequences.
They're like the canaries inthe coal mines for us,
unfortunately for them.
For us and unfortunately forthem.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
And two, when you're working with these island
nations.
They're facing these things,but you're helping them conserve
these living resources that dohelp with balancing and keeping
our climate steady, and that isthe seagrass, the mangroves, all
(20:35):
of these things that they'vegot, these trees that help to
balance that climate.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
You've maybe intentionally or not.
You've just mentioned two ofthe world's ecosystems that,
acre for acre, sequester morecarbon than any others.
Really two of the three topones.
So let's start with mangroves.
Sea College has done a lot ofmangrove projects and the reason
is as I just said.
Well, there's several reasons.
(21:02):
One, mangroves do sequester alot more carbon per acre than,
let's say, rainforests orregular forests up in the
mountains or anything.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
We've been hearing that yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yeah, and perhaps even less known is seagrass,
because seagrass is out of sight, out of mind.
You really can't even see itgenerally and it feels gushy
under your feet when you'rewalking along the beach.
But they sequester even moreper square hectare than
mangroves and they are arguablyin the running for the SADD
(21:37):
award as the most threatenedecosystem on earth.
We have lost more than 50% inthe last 30 or 40 years and it's
kind of out of sight, out ofmind.
And with seagrass, one of themain reasons, believe it or not,
is boats dropping anchors righton top of it and you kind of
(21:59):
think in your mind OK, I've seena boat anchor on a sailing boat
or whatever, and it's four feetin length or whatever.
Ok, so we're talking about acircle, four feet.
No, because when the anchor isthere, the current is moving the
boat back and forth and sowe're talking about a huge
(22:20):
amount just from one anchor.
One night, one boat.
And we funded a project toregenerate some of the seagrass
off of wells and there you couldsee the holes from satellite
photos, the holes being thevacant parts of the seagrass
taken out just by anchors.
I mean, there are other thingsthat are damaging seagrass as
(22:42):
well pollution and that sort ofthing.
And seagrass also have a lot ofother benefits, as do mangroves
, besides just sequesteringcarbon.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
It's a whole ecosystem itself.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It is.
I mean in both those ecosystemsjuveniles hang out until they
can fend for themselves and thenthey often go from there to
coral reefs.
Seagrass also keeps kind ofbeaches from eroding.
They slow down the current.
They also filter out pollution.
Mangroves very importantfunction we discovered.
(23:17):
We knew we in the conservationworld knew this.
But people outside theconservation world discovered in
the huge tsunami in the early2000s in Asia that those
villages or areas that hadseagrass pardon me in this case
mangroves had much less damagethan those that did not.
(23:38):
It mitigates that power from thestorm Right and it was quite
satisfying to read amongst allthe horrors I think it was the
same week as that huge tsunamithat the Wall Street Journal of
all places saying boy,conservation have been saying
this for years.
They were right, because here'sa photo of this and a photo of
(24:00):
that, with and without.
The difference is incredible.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Now go back to the conversation about the boats and
the anchors.
What is a solution for that?
And also, I want to point outagain that you're working with
the locals there in each ofthese locations, so they're
helping to manage right thereand they're motivated to help
manage the conservation.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
That's exactly right.
It is with the locals, it istheir environment.
What often happens, as Ialluded to before, is the locals
get no benefit from people whowant to protect the reefs, and
all that.
And not only is that not fair,it's not going to work in the
(24:43):
long term, because it's theirreefs, it's their seagrass, it's
their rainforest.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
You've got to have their buy-in.
You just have to have theirbuy-in.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
You just have to have their buy-in.
It's just not going to work.
Have to have their buy-in.
You just have to have theirbuy-in.
It's just not going to work,even if you view that as if you
don't care about the justicefactor.
There are two solutions for thedropping anchors on top of
seagrass or coral reefs thatdamages that.
Oh right, one of them is thereare various kinds now, thank
goodness, of something that hasnames like eco-reefs or
(25:15):
eco-buoys, where you can tieyour boat up to them without
dropping anchor.
So that's probably the numberone solution because it's a
technical, practical solution,and so we funded a lot of
projects doing that.
The second one is education,and that's education not only
for the local people but forcharter boat companies, for
(25:38):
their clients as well, because Ithink people want to do the
right thing.
I'm sure they do.
You know, most boaters reallycare about the ocean and all
that, after all, but they justdon't realize the damage that
they were doing by droppinganchor.
So it's that one-twocombination and generally our
(26:01):
projects are quite local.
We've had two national levelprojects but one that I can't
give the details yet, but inmid-June we're going to announce
our third national levelproject and that's in a country
in Europe.
It's a public educationcampaign about the importance of
seagrass, the threats to themand what you can do as a person
(26:25):
to cut down on those.
Our hope is that, besides doinggood in this particular country
, it's going to help raise theprofile of seagrass.
You had raised it with me earlyon in this interview.
That's very rare.
People just don't think ofseagrass and we want that to
become much more in theconsciousness of the public and
(26:49):
policymakers.
And all that because it's notvery sexy but it's very, very
important.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Well, it's because of our conversation with Ralph
Chami.
Again, he was called to theseislands to help them value their
seagrass and then he explainedwhy.
Yeah, so we were gettingeducated too.
So the education part is reallyimportant and it's why we do
what we do, to get this word outwith all these organizations
(27:17):
that are making a positiveimpact and why.
Why are these critical issuesand what are these actions
actually doing?
So that's what you guys atSeacology are doing, and you do
it with a small crew, which isinteresting Eight, nine people
there in Berkeley or whereverthey are located.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Our core staff is nine people, which is a fraction
of the staffs of internationalorganizations certainly
conservation organizations, butthey're also supplemented by we
now have 28 part-time,contract-based field
representatives.
These are, by and large, peoplewho grew up on the islands,
(28:00):
they speak the local language,they're usually of the
indigenous culture, etc.
And it's a very part-time gig,but people love it.
Nobody ever leaves.
We've had a few with us forover 20 years now, and it's so
important because only throughhaving somebody who lives there
can really understand theculture.
(28:22):
I'll just give one example ofthat.
We have this.
It's an absolutely fantasticproject in Fiji, where the local
village is preserving 20,000plus acres of a marine reserve
in exchange for us providing thefunding for a kindergarten.
And when we were kind ofnegotiating, shall we say, you
(28:44):
know, beating them or whateverwe could tell that there was a
level of distrust, some of itcompletely understandable,
because a lot of indigenousislanders have been ripped off
since first contact.
But there was something morethan that.
We couldn't tell what it was,and so this is where it pays to
have a field representative whospeaks the language, knows the
(29:07):
local people, knows the customs,and while we were there
visiting this potential project.
Many donors of Sea College andmyself are scuba divers.
It's a great way to to see, yeah, and and so we were scuba
diving there, and thus came themistrust.
We couldn't understand it.
(29:28):
The island villagers couldn'tbelieve that we had this
equipment that could get us down, that they believed that part
of it to within a few feet ofthe fish 35, 70 feet below or
whatever and we wouldn't betaking them to eat them.
So they just thought we wereeither dishonest or the world's
(29:50):
stupidest people.
You know when you think aboutit, that makes sense from their
perspective.
They didn't know more about it.
So then our fieldrepresentative no, no, this is
just something they do.
They don't take any of the fish, they just look at them and all
that.
And once we got over thathurdle, we sailed the deal and I
visited that project last year.
It's still going strong aftermany years, and that's
(30:13):
encouraging.
And I have to say that thereason I got involved with
psychology is because of theconservation aspect of it.
After all, we are aconservation organization.
But the part that moves me andoften literally brings me and
others to tears is the communitybenefit.
So in this case, a kindergartenthat they could never afford in
(30:37):
a million years, even though byour standards it wasn't
terribly expensive $40,000 orsomething like that.
And they'd been trying, villageafter village, trying to save
for this for many years and theycouldn't do it.
And when you see what thatmeans to them and what a
difference it makes, and thenyou see the warm welcome on top
of that and we're singing anddancing with them and all that,
(31:00):
it's a very emotional experience.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I would imagine and I also wanted to make clear one
important point that thefinancial economist was
explaining to us about whatyou're doing when you're
conserving these naturalresources.
You're not putting a value onthat seagrass or that mangrove,
(31:24):
you're actually letting it livebecause our nature is extractive
.
It has been in our approach tothe markets has been extractive.
How much is this whale worth inblubber, instead of letting it
live to do other services forour planet?
So that I just wanted to makevery clear, because when you're
(31:45):
conserving these livingresources, you're allowing them
to provide so many more servicesfor their community, for the
world.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
You're absolutely right, and a classic example of
that, though it might not occurto people right away, are sharks
.
Sharks, the value of selling ashark for food or whatever
modest one-time thing.
But they've now done studies,they being economists the value
of keeping that shark alive, forboth the environmental
(32:15):
conservation benefits becausetheir services are needed as
apex, predators, etc.
But also for ecotourism.
People will pay a lot more togo and see a shark in the water,
believe it or not.
Then you get from extracting itand then that continues.
It's not a one-time thing,that's forever, and so you're
(32:37):
absolutely right.
It's such a better way oflooking at the value of nature,
if we must put any kind of valueof it on it, that it's valuable
if you maintain it forever.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I heard Dr Sylvia Earle say that about sharks too
and wanting to go see them andinstead of having them extracted
, she wants to go be near themand the ecotourism has really
grown across the world andthat's part of what Sea Turtles
does and definitely part of whatyou guys do.
Talk a bit about that.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Okay, a few things.
Talk a bit about that.
Okay, a few things Again.
We're completely in agreementabout ecotourism, with one
asterisk that it's becomefashionable for a lot of hotels
and tourist businesses to callthemselves green and echo this.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Thank you for pointing this out.
Yes, I agree.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
All they're doing is not washing your sheets every
day, which saves them moneyanyway.
Having said that, so peopleshould do their homework, but
there are some really greatecotourism resorts and all that,
and many of our projects havebeen funding ecotourism efforts
Several, for example, inDominican Republic, providing
(33:55):
kayaks to the local people andtraining so they could take
visitors on kayak tours of themangroves rather than cut down
the mangroves for a one-timelittle bit of money.
When done right and that'shappening more and more and more
these ecotourism projects arejust fantastic.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
They're creating ongoing revenue streams.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
The keyword ongoing and streams revenue streams.
Yeah, that's absolutely correct.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
You're not just doing it for the benefit of your
organization, you're doing itfor the benefit of these
communities.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
And they know it.
Yes, an important part of ourequation is when we provide some
benefit for the communities.
It's what they ask for, notwhat we, sitting in an office in
California, say, and that mightsound so obvious.
It's an unusual way of working,sadly.
(34:53):
It's unusual because thesepeople know what they want.
I'll give you an example.
There's a place called MyelabitBay in the Raja Ampat area of
Indonesia.
Raja Ampat has more marinebiodiversity than any other
place in the world.
It's quite spectacular.
And so this bay is 123,000square acres and it turns out
(35:19):
there are nine villages livingalong this huge bay, and so,
through our field representative, we approached all nine
villages.
What do you want in exchangefor regulating fishing in your
bay?
What was interesting is everyvillage came up with a different
thing.
Okay, that works for us.
(35:41):
When we went there to open theproject, two things happened,
which shows the wisdom of thelocal people.
One of them is that the villagewe went to, what they asked for
from us was paving theirwalking paths, that they were
not paved.
And we thought and said boy,that just seems like such an odd
(36:03):
thing.
Why would anybody, if you'reliving that remote?
Okay, it's not paved, that'snot nice or whatever.
Well, when we got there, theyexplained to us that during the
long, long rainy season, whenyou walk in the paths that were
unpaved, your feet leavedepressions and that's where
(36:24):
mosquitoes breed.
And so it was a mosquitoprevention thing.
We would never have thought ina million years.
And then they said in theircomments, they being the
villagers, once in a while thegovernment gives us something,
which is very nice, but you,psychology, are the first entity
(36:44):
that has ever given us what weasked for, not what they thought
we wanted.
So that made me feel good, Imust say Definitely.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
That's great feedback .
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, on the island of Bali there's a mountain
called Mount Batu Koro, which isnot hardcore tourist or
whatever like some of the othermountains, but it is beautiful
and whatever.
And so there are trees therethat were being very
aggressively logged and therewere three villages on roads
(37:18):
that led to the summit, near thesummit, where some of the
logging was taking place.
So we approached, through ourfield representative, the first
village and said what would youwant in exchange for prohibiting
cutting down trees in yourterritory?
And they said a communitycenter, which is a very common
request, because often in anisland village the only place
(37:42):
that isn't your house to meetwould be a church, and church is
not viewed as neutral territorybecause there'll be two or
three different churches there,even in a village of 100 people.
And then, on top of that thiswas a first and only for us they
wanted a set of gamelaninstruments.
You may have heard gamelanmusic from Bali.
(38:02):
It's very, very different.
No actually Describe it to usIndescribable.
But go on a search for you andyour listeners after this if you
haven't heard it.
I love it, but it's verydifferent.
So we provided a Gamelan setfor the Gamelan Band, which is
(38:22):
kind of expensive by their localterms, but it's part of their
culture.
And then what happened is theystopped logging from where they
are in this road to the summitall the way up to the summit.
Then what happened and thishappens occasionally with our
projects these other villagesheard about this and they wanted
(38:44):
in on the action.
It's a win-win for them becauseA the trees get saved and B
they get something that theywant for their village.
And then the third village didthat.
So we made three separate deals.
These were not done as oneproject and just by doing that
we tied up the access to thesummit.
So that kind of stopped loggingcoal right there.
(39:07):
So the trucks the loggingtrucks couldn't pass their
village anymore because theycontrolled who comes in and out
of the road.
So that was kind of a cool anddifferent one.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Great win on that one .
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Let me talk about Manjuro Madagascar.
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
This is very remote even by Madagascar terms.
So we struck a deal, againthrough our field representative
, that there were 10 relics ofremaining parts of forest where
fruit bats congregate, theforest being cut, cut, cut.
So we made a deal that weprovided funding to repair and
(39:46):
renovate I can't remember thenumber four or five schools that
were in this together inexchange for them protecting
these relics, no more cuttingdown of trees there.
And when we went to visit andit was pretty clear that for the
vast majority, if not 100%, ofthe villagers this was so remote
(40:07):
that they had never seen aWesterner before.
So we go there and they put onthis opening celebration.
They were wearing their Sundaybest, clearly, clothes that they
would wear to church and justas an observer.
I might say that buttons weremissing and there'd be rips and
this and that, but these werepeople without a lot of
(40:30):
financial assets, but theyreally wanted to put on their
best for us.
And then they had a flagpole inthe middle, as places might,
and they ran up I don't knowwhere they got it an American
flag and they played a recordingof the US national anthem.
Now, I'm not a real jingoistperson okay, this, you know,
(40:51):
whatever.
But the fact that they wentthrough that kind of trouble for
us, we were including myself wewere all crying.
We just so moved to tears tosee what this meant to them.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
I actually heard you talk about this in a KBFA
interview from maybe a decadeago, but it just touched my
heart.
I was like whoa, they reallywent out of their way.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
They really went, as villagers usually do, so here's
another one or two, if I might.
There's a village calledNasinga Singa in Fiji, again
fairly remote.
They wanted two things from us.
One was and this is commonrequest a freshwater delivery
system, because without that,it's the women and it's always
(41:39):
the women who have to go,usually with a bucket on their
head or whatever you know, walkan hour or two fill up the
bucket, or buckets walk backevery day, every single day, or
there's no fresh water to drink.
Now they don't have to do thatbecause we put in their
requested pipes and all thiskind of stuff.
When I say we, we financed it,we didn't the local people build
(42:03):
it.
And then they also wanted,while they were at it, they
wanted their first ever, I think, well, environmentally correct
toilets.
They never had a flush toiletor anything remotely like it.
So we went to visit and, asalways happens in Fiji, big
celebration, food cooking for aday in Kava, which is the ground
(42:27):
up root of the pepper plant,which has mildly sort of
narcotic, you know, effects orwhatever.
It's very traditional, goesback hundreds of years.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
So we do that.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
And then they say they want to take us on a tour,
not of the freshwater deliverysystem but of the toilets,
because they were so proud ofthem.
I think it was three or fourtoilets.
So we go to the first one andit was all garlanded in flowers,
like you know, kind of stringsof lays you know, on there.
And so I was there with a, well, with a group, but a board
(43:00):
member and I were given thehonors of cutting the ribbon for
the toilet and then the chiefsays to me, with the village, no
more than nine or 10 feet away,I mean the whole village said
we'd like you to do the honorsof being the first to officially
use this toilet.
So I went in and fortunately Ihad a lot of water to drink that
(43:22):
morning and I did my businessand I flushed.
I got this huge ovation fromthe village.
So you just never knew.
Another quick, if I might, kindof amusing story is Contoy
Island is an island off the eastcoast of Mexico and we were
(43:42):
working on negotiating a dealwith our field representative in
which they would make theybeing the fishermen and they had
a fisherman's syndicate unionwe'd say in the US they would it
was a shelter for shelterexchange, we would provide the
money for lobster shelters sothe lobsters can hang out and
(44:03):
multiply, and put a no-take areafor lobsters in exchange for
four very basic shelters wherethe fishermen can hang out if
they get caught on the islandduring a big storm.
And so we're there and I hadn'tsaid a word.
I'm there with my fieldrepresentatives from Mexico and
these rough and tumble fisherfolk, and so she's explaining
(44:29):
psychology to them, in Spanishof course, and she says you know
it's win-win situations, oneparty gets the other and the
other one gets this.
They had no idea that I canspeak Spanish.
I hadn't said anything.
After all, the head of thefishermen you wouldn't want to
meet in a dark alley.
I'll tell you that said as ajoke.
Obviously he points to me andhe says to the field
(44:53):
representative okay, how aboutif we do an exchange of wives
with this guy?
After all, what you do, youchange one thing for another.
So, without missing a beat, Ilook up and said I might be
willing.
In Spanish, I might be willingto do that, but you got to show
me a photo of your wife first.
(45:14):
And he cracked up and helpedthe negotiation so much, and
every five minutes for the restof the time we were there.
He'd look at me like you justgive me that kind of gesture Not
bad.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
You really related to them on their level.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Well, that's what we try to do Right, we go to these
openings.
I don't tell my group in advance, I don't want them to get
nervous or whatever, but if wejust let them perform for us,
which they will do, they alwaysdo.
We never ask for it, but hisdances and this and that and the
other spear dances Amazing, itis amazing.
(45:53):
It will have too much of thetenor of a where Lord and Lady
Bountiful here and you've got tothank us and all that, right.
So what we just about always dois we say OK, we want to put on
a performance for you, and Igather everybody around and we
do the hokey pokey.
Just oh no that's it, and theyabsolutely love it, particularly
(46:18):
when we get to the end, whenyou know you put your backside
in and your backside oh, thekids are howling oh boy, that
takes me back.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
We, we did that a lot at our roller rink when I was a
kid that's right there you gocouples only right, and I
remember going to early weekswhen I was a kid, probably
Speaker 2 (46:40):
dating myself.
But there's one time, I have tobe honest, that it backfired,
and every other time it just itcuts through all the red tape,
it makes us more co-equals inthe whole thing.
The one time it backfired wewere in a floating island island
in North Vietnam, and they dowhatever performance and I said,
(47:01):
as always, ok, now we'd like todo the Hokey Pokey.
This is a children's song inthe US, so we do it and they're
watching and they're liking it.
And the very end, when you putthe back, so there's like nine
of us.
You know it must have been acultural no-no, because the
faces of the kids were like thefaces of the movie.
(47:21):
The producers when they'resinging springtime for Hitler in
Germany.
It was just like what you'redoing.
It's like, ah, but we'rebatting that 49 for 50.
That was the only time itdidn't work.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Well, and that also leads to a question I have too.
I mean, it must happen incertain places where there is
quite a bit of distrust, becausepeople's trust has been taken
advantage of.
And so what were some of yourchallenges there and how did you
resolve them?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
We've run into that a lot more in our early years
than now, because now we're alittle better.
You're established In thecoconut wireless of islands, but
the distrust was earned.
I mean, I couldn't even beginto tell you how many times
governments and this and thatand the other were in cheated by
(48:17):
Westerners.
And so then if somebody comesand says to you we're going to
give you something, they're likeyeah, right.
Exactly.
I think now it's a bit easierbecause even if they didn't
personally know about it, we canput them in contact with.
We have 430 projects in 70countries now, so there's
(48:39):
usually something not too faraway that we could point to, but
that's the only way we can getthrough it.
Or, as I mentioned, the scubadiving example where they said,
okay, they're really taking thefish and they're not telling us
when they're scuba diving, justby our actions.
And again, I can'tunderestimate the value of
(48:59):
having field representatives,because they know not just the
language but the culturalcustoms.
If you're perceived assomething, if you did something
wrong in Fiji you have a kavaceremony, which is you bring the
kava, they get it mixed up andyou share it with the chiefs and
all that.
Those cultural subtleties arevery, very important.
(49:24):
I remember for one opening onMorea in French Polynesia.
Paul Cox, who is the founder whoI mentioned earlier, came with
us and he gave his speech inFrench Polynesian in Polynesian
from French Polynesia.
They had never heard aWesterner speak fluently in that
(49:45):
language.
They were just stunned.
So it's little things like thatthat help you break through the
distrust.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Another topic I wanted to bring up too is
because of the funding gettingcut so vastly here in the United
States by our government and somany aid programs.
I appreciate that Seacology hasthe ability to have its own
resources to continue andcontinue providing services that
(50:16):
are being cut in so many places.
Continue and continue providingservices that are being cut in
so many places.
So talk a little bit about yourfunding sources.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Then I've got a couple of other questions.
Okay, we as a rule do notaccept government funding.
We had never gotten a grantfrom USAID.
We didn't want it becauseinitially they do great, great
work but lots of paperwork, lotsand lots of paperwork, and
that's one of the reasons wecould stay with a small staff by
not getting this kind ofgovernment funding.
(50:45):
But this year, for the firsttime, we had this great project
in the Caribbean.
So we said, and USAIDpractically approached us, so we
said, ok, so we're just aboutto send the proposal, when you
know what hit the fan, and it is.
We know so many projects youknow personally from firsthand
(51:09):
experience that have just beencut overnight.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
And also- it's horrible, it's just absolutely
devastating.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
That's the most important thing, that it's
devastating for these countriesand in the end it's probably
cost saving in the long termbecause it cuts down disease,
you know, saves the environment,et cetera, et cetera.
But also it becomes doubly hardbecause we know people who were
working for USAID, who justknow people who were working for
(51:41):
USAID who were just let go withno notice.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
They're given a few months severance generally and
it's a ripple effect acrosstheir entire families.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Yeah, and there are some subtleties here that the
general public is not aware of.
It was made to sound as if itwas only the new probationary
people who are being let go.
Right, one of the fantasies ofthat.
Well, there's two examples Ican give why that's not exactly
true.
One the way USAID works.
(52:09):
If you change into a new job orwhatever, then you're on
probation again.
So some of these people wereworking their 25 years or
whatever.
Second thing is USAIDoccasionally more than
occasionally attracts top talentfrom the private sector, and so
you may have had a job for 25years at XYZ Corporation, have
(52:32):
started there four months, andthen you're just laid off
without a job.
So kind of cruel as well.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yes, and I mentioned Maria Brown earlier, the
superintendent of the GreaterFair Lawns at Cordell Bank.
Well, she had 20% of her topscientists cut and then there's
another 20% coming.
She said if they just asked meto go after and evaluate the
lowest performing, I could havedone that.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
That's the thing that really gets my goat, because I
wouldn't have the gall to arguethat no, there's no waste in the
federal government budget Ofcourse something that of course
there's going to be.
But you go to the supervisorsand you say, ok, with the the
lowest performing and let's, youknow, get that Standard
business.
That's what you do.
The whole situation is quitesad.
(53:22):
Fortunately, we, psychologyhave never gotten USAID or any
government grants from anygovernment.
We don't have tons of money, butthe money we have is still
there and we're continuing,launching about 30 new projects
each year.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
Now, you did get an award at the end of last year,
was it that came with some money.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
We've won a disproportionate amount of
juried awards, and this one wasthe Lipman Family Prize out of
the University of Pennsylvaniain Wharton, and it was for
outstanding creativity.
Et cetera, et cetera Came with$ 250,000.
Another one that comes to mindabout 10 years ago I don't
(54:04):
remember exactly when thefoundation of Prince Albert II
of Monaco gave us an award,unsolicited completely, of being
the most creative nonprofit orNGO in the entire world, in any
field, from any place.
Also, we've been nominated forthe Nobel Peace Prize a few
(54:27):
years ago, and on and on it goes.
People seem to love the win-winthing and that we don't have a
lot of fat, it's just a leanstaff and we go from there.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Before joining Zecology you were with the
Goldman Awards and I actuallygot to attend that last year,
but used to work there too.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Yes, I was founding director of the Goldman
Environmental Prize, meaning Iworked with the Goldman family
and I set up the whole thing andI still remember the meetings
we had and, believe it or not,one of our biggest worries were
what if we run out of greatpeople after five or six years?
And now it's, I can't remember.
34 years later, there are justso many fantastic people around
(55:08):
the world.
I have to admit I'm very proudto have found the Goldman
Environmental Prize in writingVery important.
On the less important thing,probably my oddest job, given
what I do now, is many, manyyears ago I was a part-time
freelance comedy writer for JoanRivers, who's in the news.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
Now that I did not know.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
We don't advertise it too much.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
One of my topics that I'm focused on right now.
It's not only just offshoredrilling, but it's also deep sea
mining and the devastation thatthat can cause.
I don't know if you atSeaCology are doing anything
along those lines to try toprevent these things from
happening, but I wanted to askyou that.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
Well, the closest we come to that is, we've helped
several countries promote andestablish huge marine no-take
areas and when it comes to deepsea mining, a friend who you
mentioned I'm proud to call hera friend Sylvia Earle.
I totally go by her words.
We have to explore before weexploit and it just doesn't make
(56:15):
sense to go and start doingthis mining when it could cause
all kinds of damage.
We just don't know yet.
On the other hand, to be honest, it's Seacology's policy not to
get involved in the internalgovernment affairs of any island
nation.
We never have and we never do,and I think that works to our
mutual benefits in the long run.
(56:36):
But yeah, deep sea mining, wehave to know more about it
before we damage the ocean floor.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
And they are aggressively pushing for leases
and getting underway Any finalwords you'd like to say to our
audience?
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Think islands.
Think islands.
They're underrated heroes andthey're underrated repositories
of biodiversity.
So don't just think of them asa place with a nice beach, think
of the great cultures that arethere and join us in helping to
fight for them.
And I also want to thank youfor this podcast and thank you
for all the work you're doing.
(57:11):
Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
Duane Silverstein, thank you for joining us today.
We appreciate all the workyou're doing at Seekology.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
Thank you so much again for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (57:30):
Thanks for listening to the Resilient Earth podcast,
where we talk about criticalissues and positive actions for
our planet.
Resilient Earth is produced byPlanet Centric Media, a 501c3
nonprofit, and Seastorm StudiosInc, located on the rugged North
(57:50):
Sonoma Coast of NorthernCalifornia.
I'm Leanne Lindsey, producerand host, along with co-hosts
and co-producers Scott and TreeMercer of Mindenoma, whale and
Seal Study, located on the SouthMendocino and North Sonoma
Coasts.
The music for this podcast isby Eric Alleman, an
(58:15):
international composer, pianistand writer living in the Sea
Ranch.
Discover more of his music,animations, ballet, stage and
film work at ericalemancom.
You can find Resilient Earth onSpotify, apple and Amazon
(58:35):
Podcasts, iheartradio, youtube,soundcloud and wherever you find
your podcasts.
Please support us bysubscribing or donating to our
cause.
Welcome to the Resilient Earth Podcast, where
we talk with speakers from theUnited States and around the
world about the critical issuesfacing our planet and the
positive actions people aretaking, from the tiniest of
actions to the grandest ofgestures, so that we can
continue to thrive and survivefor generations to come.
(00:32):
I'm Leanne Lindsey, producerand host, along with co-hosts
and co-producers Scott and TreeMercer of Mindenoma, whale and
Seal Study, located on the SouthMendocino and North Sonoma
coasts.
The music for this podcast isby Eric Alleman, an
(00:55):
international composer, pianistand writer living in the Sea
Range.
Discover more of his music,animations, ballet, stage and
film work at ericalamancom.
You can find Resilient Earth onSpotify, apple and Amazon
(01:18):
Podcasts, iheartradio, youtube,soundcloud and wherever you find
your podcasts.
Today we are speaking withDwayne Silverstein, executive
(01:53):
Director of SeaCology, acharitable organization
headquartered in Berkeley,california.
Seacology works to preserveisland ecosystems and cultures
around the world, as well asconducting annual educational
ecotourism trips.
Island fauna and flora and thedecline in coral reef ecosystems
(02:29):
drive Seacology's focus onprojects in which villagers
agree to help protectterrestrial or marine habitats
for a specified time in returnfor things they might need like
new buildings, electricity,clean water or other services,
and Seacology works with localbusinesses to make those things
(02:49):
happen.
To date, seacology hascompleted 441 projects in 70
countries, which has resulted inover 1.5 million acres
protected.
As we've discussed before,living nature is more valuable
(03:10):
than dead nature, and Seacologyis showing how this is done.
At the same time, they havehelped construct new facilities
and provided programs includingeducational materials, vital
medical services andenvironmental training.
In addition to helping localpeople on islands like those in
(03:32):
Fiji, the Philippines and Samoa,their projects have helped
protect mangrove forests, seaturtles and one of the rarest
primates in the world seaturtles and one of the rarest
primates in the world.
Sea College also awards anannual prize to indigenous
islanders for their efforts inconservation and cultural
(03:52):
preservation.
The organization has alsohelped raise emergency funds
following destructive tsunamisand other natural disasters.
It has won the United NationsClimate Secretariat's Momentum
for Change Climate Action Award.
It was nominated for the 2020Nobel Peace Prize and was the
(04:16):
top recipient last year of the$250,000 Lippman Family Prize
for Outstanding Vision,inspiration and Impact.
Prior to heading psychology,duane Silverstein served for 18
years as executive director ofthe Goldman Fund, a San
(04:37):
Francisco-based philanthropicfoundation, where he oversaw the
Goldman Environmental Prize,which takes place annually, and
just happened in San Franciscoagain last month.
Sea College operated as avolunteer-only organization
until 1999, when Silverstein wasbrought on as its first
(05:00):
employee.
He has served more than twodecades as executive director,
served more than two decades asexecutive director and in the
course of his work, silversteinhas traveled to 184 islands in
74 countries.
Having worked in island andmarine conservation for 30 years
, silverstein has authored 30articles for newspapers and
magazines such as AsianGeographic, ocean Geographic,
(05:25):
fathoms, the Oakland Tribune andother publications.
He has appeared in Scuba DivingMagazine, the Diver's Alert
Network and the San FranciscoChronicle.
In 2022, scuba Diving Magazinenamed Silverstein a recipient of
its Sea Hero Award.
He holds a BA degree from NewYork University and an MA from
(05:49):
UC Berkeley.
During our upcoming conversation, you'll hear him talk about the
importance of local involvementin conservation efforts,
particularly in relation toseagrass and coral reef
protection.
He highlighted the need foreducation and practical
solutions, such as eco-friendlyanchoring systems for boats, to
(06:14):
prevent damage to theseecosystems.
Dewayne shares their ecotourisminitiatives and responsible
ecotourism practices.
He also pointed out theimportance of building trust
with local communities, oftenthrough cultural exchanges and
(06:34):
understanding.
A key thread throughout ourhour-long conversation is the
importance of valuing nature forits ongoing services rather
than extracting it for theshort-term gain.
Just as we discussed with RalphChami of Blue Green Future in
(06:57):
previous episodes, that's whatour goal is here at Resilient
Earth Radio to talk about thecritical issues and positive
actions that affect our planetand our ability to continue
living on it for generations tocome.
I'm Leanne Lindsay, producerand host, and also I want to
(07:19):
thank you so much for listeningand supporting us.
We join now the conversation inprogress that we recorded this
week, starting with theorganization.
Give us the scope of theprojects that you've got going,
(07:39):
when the organization gotstarted, how it got started,
kind of give us a feel for whatSeacology is all about, and I'm
again very pleased I met you atthe International Ocean Film
Festival, your organization,that is.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Okay, well, seacology has a very unique mission of
protecting the habitats andcultures of islands worldwide,
and let me start by saying howwe were founded, because it
describes very much what we do,and then hopefully you'll remind
me to segue into why this is soimportant.
(08:16):
So many years ago let's talkabout 30 years ago or so a Dr
Paul Cox, who's an ethnobotanistwho works with indigenous
people to see if there are curesfor illnesses in native plants
and trees and things like that,he was studying the flora of a
very remote village calledFaliolupo, in what was then
(08:39):
called Western Samoa now it'scalled Samoa and after he was
there, living amongst the localpeople for a few weeks, he heard
the earth moving equipment comein to start to cut down a
30,000 acre pristine rainforest.
And Paul Cox, who happens tospeak about 12 or 13 languages,
(09:01):
including many languages of thePacific, went and asked the
chiefs well, what's going on?
Why is this happening?
And they told him that thegovernment of Samoa told them if
they didn't build a betterschool the school at the time
was a ramshackle hut reallyabout to fall down that they
(09:21):
would remove the teachers andthere'd be no local education
for their kids.
Now, it doesn't matter whatbackground you come from rich,
poor, whatever continent,whatever color everybody wants
their kids to have a goodeducation.
So they thought, and theythought, and they said how can
we fund this school?
They were on a barter economicsystem, so the per capita income
(09:46):
annual was $100 per person, sothere's no way they're going to
build a school.
So Paul Cox said how about if?
we build you the school, wouldyou then, and gave you the money
to pay off the loggers, wouldyou then turn this 30,000 acre
(10:07):
first growth rainforest into apermanent reserve?
And they said yes, of course.
And there was only one problem.
Paul was bluffing, there wasn'ta we at the time, but
psychology was then formed, sortof on the spot, and the money
was raised to build a betterschool.
(10:28):
And also, psychology raised themoney to pay off the buy out
the loggers from their contract,and this is a really hands-on
conservation.
So one of the chiefs and youprobably know the image of
Samoan chiefs, they're veryburly and muscular and all that
he runs out with a machete tothe loggers still working there
(10:50):
and says in Samoan to them ifyou don't leave right now,
you'll be dust of the earth, andthat's what I call effective
conservation.
So they ran away Very effective, yeah, very effective.
And psychology then providedthe money to build a school and
I've since been there and theschool is quite nice.
(11:13):
I mean it's about five or sixrooms, it's large and it's got
all the features you'd want in aschool, at least in the tropics
.
Originally the villagers saidthat okay, they're going to make
this a 50-year term for thisreserve.
But they just liked it so muchthey made it permanent.
So now 30,000 acres rainforestwhich would have been cut down
(11:37):
is now preserved permanently andkind of at the same time, a a
few people involved withpsychology said okay, this
worked so well here.
It seems like a great model.
Why don't we do this on islandsthroughout the world?
This being this kind of win-winthing, we'll give you a school,
(11:58):
because that's what you want,not what we say you want, and in
return you set aside thisforest or this coral reef or
this mangrove area, et cetera,et cetera.
So that's proven to be veryeffective.
The island villagers where wework love it.
I mean, initially the reactionis you're going to give us
(12:20):
something.
We never get something, and youknow.
And then, if you ask them more,what will happen with you know,
with other types ofconservation organizations?
They will say well, you see, wecan't release the money to
preserve this coral reef untilwe're sure it's one of the most
(12:41):
threatened coral reefs in thearea.
So what does that mean?
Well, we'll hire a scientist at$60,000 a year to come with
more than the income of anyentire village there, usually to
come and do a longitudinalstudy for the next 12 years and
then we'll decide if it's worthsaving.
(13:01):
And this is unintentionally,rather insulting to the local
people In our view at psychology, if and this always happens
villagers say gee, my fatherused to fish for my
great-grandfather used to fish,for you know, three hours and
have more than we could dealwith, and grandfather five hours
(13:24):
and more than we can deal with,and then my father's out there
seven hours a day.
It's not quite enough.
I'm out there nine hours a dayand it's not even close to
enough.
That's proof enough for us.
In fact, the reality is such ahigh percentage of tropical well
, of coral reefs or tropicalforests are threatened we feel
(13:52):
confident that that's okay.
That's enough proof that weneed and we cut the deal, if
they would like to, with thelocal villagers.
Now let me take the digressionI said I would, because I think
it's very important for yourlisteners.
Why?
Why is psychology doing thisand focusing only on islands?
And there are a few shockingreasons.
I think your viewers andlisteners will be surprised.
In recorded history, all of thehistory of this earth, 80% of
(14:19):
all plant and animal extinctionshave taken place on islands.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I noticed that on your website it's very important
to understand and who knows?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
that Nobody knows that I didn't before I started
at psychology.
Islands make up about 5% of theworld's landmass and are now
home to 40% of all criticallyendangered species.
And for these reasons, andothers like it, a biologist,
storrs Olson with theSmithsonian Institute, has said
(14:50):
the extinction rate on islandsis one of the swiftest and most
profound biological catastrophesin the history of the earth.
That's so important.
If you don't mind, I'm going toquickly repeat it, storrs Olson
the extinction rate on islandsis one of the swiftest and most
profound biological catastrophesin the history of the Earth.
(15:14):
Now let me round that out withan anecdote or two because I
think that it makes it easierfor people to relate to this.
The United States has oneisland state, of course, hawaii.
Hawaii makes up two tenths ofone percent of the landmass of
the US and has been home in ourhistory to 72 percent of all
(15:37):
extinctions in our country 72percent.
Two tenths of one percent, 72percent.
Here's one that's even moremind-blowing, and that's Lord
Howe Island, which is a smallishisland in the Coral Sea off of
Australia.
In its history, it has beenhome to more bird species and
subspecies extinctions.
(15:58):
Get ready for this Then Africa,asia and Europe combined.
And there's nothing special inthis regard about Lord Howe
Island, it's just happened tohave that statistics.
So then the question is, why,and why this crisis on islands?
And it's up to the 18th century,islands were, as the word
(16:21):
implies, very isolated.
There was no contact withoutsiders, certainly not with
Westerners or whatever.
So when first contact was made,introduced species started
coming to the islands.
So you have two problems here.
You've got species that did notneed to develop any protection
from, let's say, rats coming offof the ropes of a ship.
(16:42):
And the second problem is ifyou have a species of bird,
let's say Asia, just to pick arandom continent, very likely
there'll be hundreds of coloniesof them spread out, thousands
maybe, or at the worst case,five or six or something like
that.
With small islands generally,there'll be one colony of this
(17:05):
bird X, whatever the bird is,and so the rats come up the
trees and start eating the birds.
Or New Zealand that they don'teven fly like the Kiwis and
whatever, so they're easypickings.
That's it Then, with islands.
More recently, you add otherthings that have come from
contact, such as acid rain,global warming, introduced
(17:29):
species I mentioned, and what'sperhaps the most devastating is
rising seas.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I was just about to say that too, because we talked
with the president of Sea TurtleOrganization, brad Mayhill.
I heard that interview?
Yes, right, so there are theirnesting grounds.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Exactly and think of what this means for islands.
First of all, a lot of people Iwould dare say maybe the
majority think of climate change.
The real bad stuff is going tohappen in the distant future,
and that's not true.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
On islands.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It's happening now and one of the first bits of
evidence of that are from risingseas.
There's more intrusion of waterwhen there's a storm and
there's always storms in thetropics.
So again you hear just you know, I've heard this many times
from talking to local islandersthat you know again about not
(18:25):
that long ago, 40, 50 years agoif a storm came it would intrude
15 or 20 feet or whatever.
And, long story short, now it'sintruding an eighth of a mile
or whatever, and that's reallybad news.
And again it's happening now.
This is not a future thing.
It's really bad news becausethere's a lot of spare room on
(18:48):
many islands.
So that means when the tidesare getting higher from the
storms, from the surges, thatthey're intruding on
agricultural land and we'retalking saltwater coming in,
which means okay, can't farm onthis land for another 30 years
till all the saltwater is washedout.
(19:08):
So it is happening as we speak,sadly.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And I would imagine too, because of the rise of
waste around our world,especially accumulating on
islands and lower incomecountries, plastic being a big
part of that, that would alsocome in with that.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
It's absolutely correct.
And it's you know at first.
I'm now accustomed to it.
But it was startling to bewalking along a beach in island
X, y or Z and then pick up sometrash, just to you know, just to
be a do-gooder.
And then you look, you know,made in Canada, made responsible
(20:01):
for who knows the exact figure,but 0.0000001% of all the
carbon in the atmosphere.
But they're the first to sufferthe consequences.
They're like the canaries inthe coal mines for us,
unfortunately for them.
For us and unfortunately forthem.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
And two, when you're working with these island
nations.
They're facing these things,but you're helping them conserve
these living resources that dohelp with balancing and keeping
our climate steady, and that isthe seagrass, the mangroves, all
(20:35):
of these things that they'vegot, these trees that help to
balance that climate.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
You've maybe intentionally or not.
You've just mentioned two ofthe world's ecosystems that,
acre for acre, sequester morecarbon than any others.
Really two of the three topones.
So let's start with mangroves.
Sea College has done a lot ofmangrove projects and the reason
is as I just said.
Well, there's several reasons.
(21:02):
One, mangroves do sequester alot more carbon per acre than,
let's say, rainforests orregular forests up in the
mountains or anything.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
We've been hearing that yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yeah, and perhaps even less known is seagrass,
because seagrass is out of sight, out of mind.
You really can't even see itgenerally and it feels gushy
under your feet when you'rewalking along the beach.
But they sequester even moreper square hectare than
mangroves and they are arguablyin the running for the SADD
(21:37):
award as the most threatenedecosystem on earth.
We have lost more than 50% inthe last 30 or 40 years and it's
kind of out of sight, out ofmind.
And with seagrass, one of themain reasons, believe it or not,
is boats dropping anchors righton top of it and you kind of
(21:59):
think in your mind OK, I've seena boat anchor on a sailing boat
or whatever, and it's four feetin length or whatever.
Ok, so we're talking about acircle, four feet.
No, because when the anchor isthere, the current is moving the
boat back and forth and sowe're talking about a huge
(22:20):
amount just from one anchor.
One night, one boat.
And we funded a project toregenerate some of the seagrass
off of wells and there you couldsee the holes from satellite
photos, the holes being thevacant parts of the seagrass
taken out just by anchors.
I mean, there are other thingsthat are damaging seagrass as
(22:42):
well pollution and that sort ofthing.
And seagrass also have a lot ofother benefits, as do mangroves
, besides just sequesteringcarbon.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
It's a whole ecosystem itself.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It is.
I mean in both those ecosystemsjuveniles hang out until they
can fend for themselves and thenthey often go from there to
coral reefs.
Seagrass also keeps kind ofbeaches from eroding.
They slow down the current.
They also filter out pollution.
Mangroves very importantfunction we discovered.
(23:17):
We knew we in the conservationworld knew this.
But people outside theconservation world discovered in
the huge tsunami in the early2000s in Asia that those
villages or areas that hadseagrass pardon me in this case
mangroves had much less damagethan those that did not.
(23:38):
It mitigates that power from thestorm Right and it was quite
satisfying to read amongst allthe horrors I think it was the
same week as that huge tsunamithat the Wall Street Journal of
all places saying boy,conservation have been saying
this for years.
They were right, because here'sa photo of this and a photo of
(24:00):
that, with and without.
The difference is incredible.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Now go back to the conversation about the boats and
the anchors.
What is a solution for that?
And also, I want to point outagain that you're working with
the locals there in each ofthese locations, so they're
helping to manage right thereand they're motivated to help
manage the conservation.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
That's exactly right.
It is with the locals, it istheir environment.
What often happens, as Ialluded to before, is the locals
get no benefit from people whowant to protect the reefs, and
all that.
And not only is that not fair,it's not going to work in the
(24:43):
long term, because it's theirreefs, it's their seagrass, it's
their rainforest.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
You've got to have their buy-in.
You just have to have theirbuy-in.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
You just have to have their buy-in.
It's just not going to work.
Have to have their buy-in.
You just have to have theirbuy-in.
It's just not going to work,even if you view that as if you
don't care about the justicefactor.
There are two solutions for thedropping anchors on top of
seagrass or coral reefs thatdamages that.
Oh right, one of them is thereare various kinds now, thank
goodness, of something that hasnames like eco-reefs or
(25:15):
eco-buoys, where you can tieyour boat up to them without
dropping anchor.
So that's probably the numberone solution because it's a
technical, practical solution,and so we funded a lot of
projects doing that.
The second one is education,and that's education not only
for the local people but forcharter boat companies, for
(25:38):
their clients as well, because Ithink people want to do the
right thing.
I'm sure they do.
You know, most boaters reallycare about the ocean and all
that, after all, but they justdon't realize the damage that
they were doing by droppinganchor.
So it's that one-twocombination and generally our
(26:01):
projects are quite local.
We've had two national levelprojects but one that I can't
give the details yet, but inmid-June we're going to announce
our third national levelproject and that's in a country
in Europe.
It's a public educationcampaign about the importance of
seagrass, the threats to themand what you can do as a person
(26:25):
to cut down on those.
Our hope is that, besides doinggood in this particular country
, it's going to help raise theprofile of seagrass.
You had raised it with me earlyon in this interview.
That's very rare.
People just don't think ofseagrass and we want that to
become much more in theconsciousness of the public and
(26:49):
policymakers.
And all that because it's notvery sexy but it's very, very
important.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Well, it's because of our conversation with Ralph
Chami.
Again, he was called to theseislands to help them value their
seagrass and then he explainedwhy.
Yeah, so we were gettingeducated too.
So the education part is reallyimportant and it's why we do
what we do, to get this word outwith all these organizations
(27:17):
that are making a positiveimpact and why.
Why are these critical issuesand what are these actions
actually doing?
So that's what you guys atSeacology are doing, and you do
it with a small crew, which isinteresting Eight, nine people
there in Berkeley or whereverthey are located.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Our core staff is nine people, which is a fraction
of the staffs of internationalorganizations certainly
conservation organizations, butthey're also supplemented by we
now have 28 part-time,contract-based field
representatives.
These are, by and large, peoplewho grew up on the islands,
(28:00):
they speak the local language,they're usually of the
indigenous culture, etc.
And it's a very part-time gig,but people love it.
Nobody ever leaves.
We've had a few with us forover 20 years now, and it's so
important because only throughhaving somebody who lives there
can really understand theculture.
(28:22):
I'll just give one example ofthat.
We have this.
It's an absolutely fantasticproject in Fiji, where the local
village is preserving 20,000plus acres of a marine reserve
in exchange for us providing thefunding for a kindergarten.
And when we were kind ofnegotiating, shall we say, you
(28:44):
know, beating them or whateverwe could tell that there was a
level of distrust, some of itcompletely understandable,
because a lot of indigenousislanders have been ripped off
since first contact.
But there was something morethan that.
We couldn't tell what it was,and so this is where it pays to
have a field representative whospeaks the language, knows the
(29:07):
local people, knows the customs,and while we were there
visiting this potential project.
Many donors of Sea College andmyself are scuba divers.
It's a great way to to see, yeah, and and so we were scuba
diving there, and thus came themistrust.
We couldn't understand it.
(29:28):
The island villagers couldn'tbelieve that we had this
equipment that could get us down, that they believed that part
of it to within a few feet ofthe fish 35, 70 feet below or
whatever and we wouldn't betaking them to eat them.
So they just thought we wereeither dishonest or the world's
(29:50):
stupidest people.
You know when you think aboutit, that makes sense from their
perspective.
They didn't know more about it.
So then our fieldrepresentative no, no, this is
just something they do.
They don't take any of the fish, they just look at them and all
that.
And once we got over thathurdle, we sailed the deal and I
visited that project last year.
It's still going strong aftermany years, and that's
(30:13):
encouraging.
And I have to say that thereason I got involved with
psychology is because of theconservation aspect of it.
After all, we are aconservation organization.
But the part that moves me andoften literally brings me and
others to tears is the communitybenefit.
So in this case, a kindergartenthat they could never afford in
(30:37):
a million years, even though byour standards it wasn't
terribly expensive $40,000 orsomething like that.
And they'd been trying, villageafter village, trying to save
for this for many years and theycouldn't do it.
And when you see what thatmeans to them and what a
difference it makes, and thenyou see the warm welcome on top
of that and we're singing anddancing with them and all that,
(31:00):
it's a very emotional experience.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I would imagine and I also wanted to make clear one
important point that thefinancial economist was
explaining to us about whatyou're doing when you're
conserving these naturalresources.
You're not putting a value onthat seagrass or that mangrove,
(31:24):
you're actually letting it livebecause our nature is extractive
.
It has been in our approach tothe markets has been extractive.
How much is this whale worth inblubber, instead of letting it
live to do other services forour planet?
So that I just wanted to makevery clear, because when you're
(31:45):
conserving these livingresources, you're allowing them
to provide so many more servicesfor their community, for the
world.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
You're absolutely right, and a classic example of
that, though it might not occurto people right away, are sharks
.
Sharks, the value of selling ashark for food or whatever
modest one-time thing.
But they've now done studies,they being economists the value
of keeping that shark alive, forboth the environmental
(32:15):
conservation benefits becausetheir services are needed as
apex, predators, etc.
But also for ecotourism.
People will pay a lot more togo and see a shark in the water,
believe it or not.
Then you get from extracting itand then that continues.
It's not a one-time thing,that's forever, and so you're
(32:37):
absolutely right.
It's such a better way oflooking at the value of nature,
if we must put any kind of valueof it on it, that it's valuable
if you maintain it forever.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I heard Dr Sylvia Earle say that about sharks too
and wanting to go see them andinstead of having them extracted
, she wants to go be near themand the ecotourism has really
grown across the world andthat's part of what Sea Turtles
does and definitely part of whatyou guys do.
Talk a bit about that.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Okay, a few things.
Talk a bit about that.
Okay, a few things Again.
We're completely in agreementabout ecotourism, with one
asterisk that it's becomefashionable for a lot of hotels
and tourist businesses to callthemselves green and echo this.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Thank you for pointing this out.
Yes, I agree.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
All they're doing is not washing your sheets every
day, which saves them moneyanyway.
Having said that, so peopleshould do their homework, but
there are some really greatecotourism resorts and all that,
and many of our projects havebeen funding ecotourism efforts
Several, for example, inDominican Republic, providing
(33:55):
kayaks to the local people andtraining so they could take
visitors on kayak tours of themangroves rather than cut down
the mangroves for a one-timelittle bit of money.
When done right and that'shappening more and more and more
these ecotourism projects arejust fantastic.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
They're creating ongoing revenue streams.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
The keyword ongoing and streams revenue streams.
Yeah, that's absolutely correct.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
You're not just doing it for the benefit of your
organization, you're doing itfor the benefit of these
communities.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
And they know it.
Yes, an important part of ourequation is when we provide some
benefit for the communities.
It's what they ask for, notwhat we, sitting in an office in
California, say, and that mightsound so obvious.
It's an unusual way of working,sadly.
(34:53):
It's unusual because thesepeople know what they want.
I'll give you an example.
There's a place called MyelabitBay in the Raja Ampat area of
Indonesia.
Raja Ampat has more marinebiodiversity than any other
place in the world.
It's quite spectacular.
And so this bay is 123,000square acres and it turns out
(35:19):
there are nine villages livingalong this huge bay, and so,
through our field representative, we approached all nine
villages.
What do you want in exchangefor regulating fishing in your
bay?
What was interesting is everyvillage came up with a different
thing.
Okay, that works for us.
(35:41):
When we went there to open theproject, two things happened,
which shows the wisdom of thelocal people.
One of them is that the villagewe went to, what they asked for
from us was paving theirwalking paths, that they were
not paved.
And we thought and said boy,that just seems like such an odd
(36:03):
thing.
Why would anybody, if you'reliving that remote?
Okay, it's not paved, that'snot nice or whatever.
Well, when we got there, theyexplained to us that during the
long, long rainy season, whenyou walk in the paths that were
unpaved, your feet leavedepressions and that's where
(36:24):
mosquitoes breed.
And so it was a mosquitoprevention thing.
We would never have thought ina million years.
And then they said in theircomments, they being the
villagers, once in a while thegovernment gives us something,
which is very nice, but you,psychology, are the first entity
(36:44):
that has ever given us what weasked for, not what they thought
we wanted.
So that made me feel good, Imust say Definitely.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
That's great feedback .
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, on the island of Bali there's a mountain
called Mount Batu Koro, which isnot hardcore tourist or
whatever like some of the othermountains, but it is beautiful
and whatever.
And so there are trees therethat were being very
aggressively logged and therewere three villages on roads
(37:18):
that led to the summit, near thesummit, where some of the
logging was taking place.
So we approached, through ourfield representative, the first
village and said what would youwant in exchange for prohibiting
cutting down trees in yourterritory?
And they said a communitycenter, which is a very common
request, because often in anisland village the only place
(37:42):
that isn't your house to meetwould be a church, and church is
not viewed as neutral territorybecause there'll be two or
three different churches there,even in a village of 100 people.
And then, on top of that thiswas a first and only for us they
wanted a set of gamelaninstruments.
You may have heard gamelanmusic from Bali.
(38:02):
It's very, very different.
No actually Describe it to usIndescribable.
But go on a search for you andyour listeners after this if you
haven't heard it.
I love it, but it's verydifferent.
So we provided a Gamelan setfor the Gamelan Band, which is
(38:22):
kind of expensive by their localterms, but it's part of their
culture.
And then what happened is theystopped logging from where they
are in this road to the summitall the way up to the summit.
Then what happened and thishappens occasionally with our
projects these other villagesheard about this and they wanted
(38:44):
in on the action.
It's a win-win for them becauseA the trees get saved and B
they get something that theywant for their village.
And then the third village didthat.
So we made three separate deals.
These were not done as oneproject and just by doing that
we tied up the access to thesummit.
So that kind of stopped loggingcoal right there.
(39:07):
So the trucks the loggingtrucks couldn't pass their
village anymore because theycontrolled who comes in and out
of the road.
So that was kind of a cool anddifferent one.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Great win on that one .
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Let me talk about Manjuro Madagascar.
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
This is very remote even by Madagascar terms.
So we struck a deal, againthrough our field representative
, that there were 10 relics ofremaining parts of forest where
fruit bats congregate, theforest being cut, cut, cut.
So we made a deal that weprovided funding to repair and
(39:46):
renovate I can't remember thenumber four or five schools that
were in this together inexchange for them protecting
these relics, no more cuttingdown of trees there.
And when we went to visit andit was pretty clear that for the
vast majority, if not 100%, ofthe villagers this was so remote
(40:07):
that they had never seen aWesterner before.
So we go there and they put onthis opening celebration.
They were wearing their Sundaybest, clearly, clothes that they
would wear to church and justas an observer.
I might say that buttons weremissing and there'd be rips and
this and that, but these werepeople without a lot of
(40:30):
financial assets, but theyreally wanted to put on their
best for us.
And then they had a flagpole inthe middle, as places might,
and they ran up I don't knowwhere they got it an American
flag and they played a recordingof the US national anthem.
Now, I'm not a real jingoistperson okay, this, you know,
(40:51):
whatever.
But the fact that they wentthrough that kind of trouble for
us, we were including myself wewere all crying.
We just so moved to tears tosee what this meant to them.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
I actually heard you talk about this in a KBFA
interview from maybe a decadeago, but it just touched my
heart.
I was like whoa, they reallywent out of their way.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
They really went, as villagers usually do, so here's
another one or two, if I might.
There's a village calledNasinga Singa in Fiji, again
fairly remote.
They wanted two things from us.
One was and this is commonrequest a freshwater delivery
system, because without that,it's the women and it's always
(41:39):
the women who have to go,usually with a bucket on their
head or whatever you know, walkan hour or two fill up the
bucket, or buckets walk backevery day, every single day, or
there's no fresh water to drink.
Now they don't have to do thatbecause we put in their
requested pipes and all thiskind of stuff.
When I say we, we financed it,we didn't the local people build
(42:03):
it.
And then they also wanted,while they were at it, they
wanted their first ever, I think, well, environmentally correct
toilets.
They never had a flush toiletor anything remotely like it.
So we went to visit and, asalways happens in Fiji, big
celebration, food cooking for aday in Kava, which is the ground
(42:27):
up root of the pepper plant,which has mildly sort of
narcotic, you know, effects orwhatever.
It's very traditional, goesback hundreds of years.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
So we do that.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
And then they say they want to take us on a tour,
not of the freshwater deliverysystem but of the toilets,
because they were so proud ofthem.
I think it was three or fourtoilets.
So we go to the first one andit was all garlanded in flowers,
like you know, kind of stringsof lays you know, on there.
And so I was there with a, well, with a group, but a board
(43:00):
member and I were given thehonors of cutting the ribbon for
the toilet and then the chiefsays to me, with the village, no
more than nine or 10 feet away,I mean the whole village said
we'd like you to do the honorsof being the first to officially
use this toilet.
So I went in and fortunately Ihad a lot of water to drink that
(43:22):
morning and I did my businessand I flushed.
I got this huge ovation fromthe village.
So you just never knew.
Another quick, if I might, kindof amusing story is Contoy
Island is an island off the eastcoast of Mexico and we were
(43:42):
working on negotiating a dealwith our field representative in
which they would make theybeing the fishermen and they had
a fisherman's syndicate unionwe'd say in the US they would it
was a shelter for shelterexchange, we would provide the
money for lobster shelters sothe lobsters can hang out and
(44:03):
multiply, and put a no-take areafor lobsters in exchange for
four very basic shelters wherethe fishermen can hang out if
they get caught on the islandduring a big storm.
And so we're there and I hadn'tsaid a word.
I'm there with my fieldrepresentatives from Mexico and
these rough and tumble fisherfolk, and so she's explaining
(44:29):
psychology to them, in Spanishof course, and she says you know
it's win-win situations, oneparty gets the other and the
other one gets this.
They had no idea that I canspeak Spanish.
I hadn't said anything.
After all, the head of thefishermen you wouldn't want to
meet in a dark alley.
I'll tell you that said as ajoke.
Obviously he points to me andhe says to the field
(44:53):
representative okay, how aboutif we do an exchange of wives
with this guy?
After all, what you do, youchange one thing for another.
So, without missing a beat, Ilook up and said I might be
willing.
In Spanish, I might be willingto do that, but you got to show
me a photo of your wife first.
(45:14):
And he cracked up and helpedthe negotiation so much, and
every five minutes for the restof the time we were there.
He'd look at me like you justgive me that kind of gesture Not
bad.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
You really related to them on their level.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Well, that's what we try to do Right, we go to these
openings.
I don't tell my group in advance, I don't want them to get
nervous or whatever, but if wejust let them perform for us,
which they will do, they alwaysdo.
We never ask for it, but hisdances and this and that and the
other spear dances Amazing, itis amazing.
(45:53):
It will have too much of thetenor of a where Lord and Lady
Bountiful here and you've got tothank us and all that, right.
So what we just about always dois we say OK, we want to put on
a performance for you, and Igather everybody around and we
do the hokey pokey.
Just oh no that's it, and theyabsolutely love it, particularly
(46:18):
when we get to the end, whenyou know you put your backside
in and your backside oh, thekids are howling oh boy, that
takes me back.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
We, we did that a lot at our roller rink when I was a
kid that's right there you gocouples only right, and I
remember going to early weekswhen I was a kid, probably
Speaker 2 (46:40):
dating myself.
But there's one time, I have tobe honest, that it backfired,
and every other time it just itcuts through all the red tape,
it makes us more co-equals inthe whole thing.
The one time it backfired wewere in a floating island island
in North Vietnam, and they dowhatever performance and I said,
(47:01):
as always, ok, now we'd like todo the Hokey Pokey.
This is a children's song inthe US, so we do it and they're
watching and they're liking it.
And the very end, when you putthe back, so there's like nine
of us.
You know it must have been acultural no-no, because the
faces of the kids were like thefaces of the movie.
(47:21):
The producers when they'resinging springtime for Hitler in
Germany.
It was just like what you'redoing.
It's like, ah, but we'rebatting that 49 for 50.
That was the only time itdidn't work.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Well, and that also leads to a question I have too.
I mean, it must happen incertain places where there is
quite a bit of distrust, becausepeople's trust has been taken
advantage of.
And so what were some of yourchallenges there and how did you
resolve them?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
We've run into that a lot more in our early years
than now, because now we're alittle better.
You're established In thecoconut wireless of islands, but
the distrust was earned.
I mean, I couldn't even beginto tell you how many times
governments and this and thatand the other were in cheated by
(48:17):
Westerners.
And so then if somebody comesand says to you we're going to
give you something, they're likeyeah, right.
Exactly.
I think now it's a bit easierbecause even if they didn't
personally know about it, we canput them in contact with.
We have 430 projects in 70countries now, so there's
(48:39):
usually something not too faraway that we could point to, but
that's the only way we can getthrough it.
Or, as I mentioned, the scubadiving example where they said,
okay, they're really taking thefish and they're not telling us
when they're scuba diving, justby our actions.
And again, I can'tunderestimate the value of
(48:59):
having field representatives,because they know not just the
language but the culturalcustoms.
If you're perceived assomething, if you did something
wrong in Fiji you have a kavaceremony, which is you bring the
kava, they get it mixed up andyou share it with the chiefs and
all that.
Those cultural subtleties arevery, very important.
(49:24):
I remember for one opening onMorea in French Polynesia.
Paul Cox, who is the founder whoI mentioned earlier, came with
us and he gave his speech inFrench Polynesian in Polynesian
from French Polynesia.
They had never heard aWesterner speak fluently in that
(49:45):
language.
They were just stunned.
So it's little things like thatthat help you break through the
distrust.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Another topic I wanted to bring up too is
because of the funding gettingcut so vastly here in the United
States by our government and somany aid programs.
I appreciate that Seacology hasthe ability to have its own
resources to continue andcontinue providing services that
(50:16):
are being cut in so many places.
Continue and continue providingservices that are being cut in
so many places.
So talk a little bit about yourfunding sources.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Then I've got a couple of other questions.
Okay, we as a rule do notaccept government funding.
We had never gotten a grantfrom USAID.
We didn't want it becauseinitially they do great, great
work but lots of paperwork, lotsand lots of paperwork, and
that's one of the reasons wecould stay with a small staff by
not getting this kind ofgovernment funding.
(50:45):
But this year, for the firsttime, we had this great project
in the Caribbean.
So we said, and USAIDpractically approached us, so we
said, ok, so we're just aboutto send the proposal, when you
know what hit the fan, and it is.
We know so many projects youknow personally from firsthand
(51:09):
experience that have just beencut overnight.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
And also- it's horrible, it's just absolutely
devastating.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
That's the most important thing, that it's
devastating for these countriesand in the end it's probably
cost saving in the long termbecause it cuts down disease,
you know, saves the environment,et cetera, et cetera.
But also it becomes doubly hardbecause we know people who were
working for USAID, who justknow people who were working for
(51:41):
USAID who were just let go withno notice.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
They're given a few months severance generally and
it's a ripple effect acrosstheir entire families.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Yeah, and there are some subtleties here that the
general public is not aware of.
It was made to sound as if itwas only the new probationary
people who are being let go.
Right, one of the fantasies ofthat.
Well, there's two examples Ican give why that's not exactly
true.
One the way USAID works.
(52:09):
If you change into a new job orwhatever, then you're on
probation again.
So some of these people wereworking their 25 years or
whatever.
Second thing is USAIDoccasionally more than
occasionally attracts top talentfrom the private sector, and so
you may have had a job for 25years at XYZ Corporation, have
(52:32):
started there four months, andthen you're just laid off
without a job.
So kind of cruel as well.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yes, and I mentioned Maria Brown earlier, the
superintendent of the GreaterFair Lawns at Cordell Bank.
Well, she had 20% of her topscientists cut and then there's
another 20% coming.
She said if they just asked meto go after and evaluate the
lowest performing, I could havedone that.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
That's the thing that really gets my goat, because I
wouldn't have the gall to arguethat no, there's no waste in the
federal government budget Ofcourse something that of course
there's going to be.
But you go to the supervisorsand you say, ok, with the the
lowest performing and let's, youknow, get that Standard
business.
That's what you do.
The whole situation is quitesad.
(53:22):
Fortunately, we, psychologyhave never gotten USAID or any
government grants from anygovernment.
We don't have tons of money, butthe money we have is still
there and we're continuing,launching about 30 new projects
each year.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
Now, you did get an award at the end of last year,
was it that came with some money.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
We've won a disproportionate amount of
juried awards, and this one wasthe Lipman Family Prize out of
the University of Pennsylvaniain Wharton, and it was for
outstanding creativity.
Et cetera, et cetera Came with$ 250,000.
Another one that comes to mindabout 10 years ago I don't
(54:04):
remember exactly when thefoundation of Prince Albert II
of Monaco gave us an award,unsolicited completely, of being
the most creative nonprofit orNGO in the entire world, in any
field, from any place.
Also, we've been nominated forthe Nobel Peace Prize a few
(54:27):
years ago, and on and on it goes.
People seem to love the win-winthing and that we don't have a
lot of fat, it's just a leanstaff and we go from there.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Before joining Zecology you were with the
Goldman Awards and I actuallygot to attend that last year,
but used to work there too.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Yes, I was founding director of the Goldman
Environmental Prize, meaning Iworked with the Goldman family
and I set up the whole thing andI still remember the meetings
we had and, believe it or not,one of our biggest worries were
what if we run out of greatpeople after five or six years?
And now it's, I can't remember.
34 years later, there are justso many fantastic people around
(55:08):
the world.
I have to admit I'm very proudto have found the Goldman
Environmental Prize in writingVery important.
On the less important thing,probably my oddest job, given
what I do now, is many, manyyears ago I was a part-time
freelance comedy writer for JoanRivers, who's in the news.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
Now that I did not know.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
We don't advertise it too much.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
One of my topics that I'm focused on right now.
It's not only just offshoredrilling, but it's also deep sea
mining and the devastation thatthat can cause.
I don't know if you atSeaCology are doing anything
along those lines to try toprevent these things from
happening, but I wanted to askyou that.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
Well, the closest we come to that is, we've helped
several countries promote andestablish huge marine no-take
areas and when it comes to deepsea mining, a friend who you
mentioned I'm proud to call hera friend Sylvia Earle.
I totally go by her words.
We have to explore before weexploit and it just doesn't make
(56:15):
sense to go and start doingthis mining when it could cause
all kinds of damage.
We just don't know yet.
On the other hand, to be honest, it's Seacology's policy not to
get involved in the internalgovernment affairs of any island
nation.
We never have and we never do,and I think that works to our
mutual benefits in the long run.
(56:36):
But yeah, deep sea mining, wehave to know more about it
before we damage the ocean floor.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
And they are aggressively pushing for leases
and getting underway Any finalwords you'd like to say to our
audience?
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Think islands.
Think islands.
They're underrated heroes andthey're underrated repositories
of biodiversity.
So don't just think of them asa place with a nice beach, think
of the great cultures that arethere and join us in helping to
fight for them.
And I also want to thank youfor this podcast and thank you
for all the work you're doing.
(57:11):
Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
Duane Silverstein, thank you for joining us today.
We appreciate all the workyou're doing at Seekology.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
Thank you so much again for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (57:30):
Thanks for listening to the Resilient Earth podcast,
where we talk about criticalissues and positive actions for
our planet.
Resilient Earth is produced byPlanet Centric Media, a 501c3
nonprofit, and Seastorm StudiosInc, located on the rugged North
(57:50):
Sonoma Coast of NorthernCalifornia.
I'm Leanne Lindsey, producerand host, along with co-hosts
and co-producers Scott and TreeMercer of Mindenoma, whale and
Seal Study, located on the SouthMendocino and North Sonoma
Coasts.
The music for this podcast isby Eric Alleman, an
(58:15):
international composer, pianistand writer living in the Sea
Ranch.
Discover more of his music,animations, ballet, stage and
film work at ericalemancom.
You can find Resilient Earth onSpotify, apple and Amazon
(58:35):
Podcasts, iheartradio, youtube,soundcloud and wherever you find
your podcasts.
Please support us bysubscribing or donating to our
cause.
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