October 25, 2025 • 48 mins
Attention has moved where play lives, and that’s exactly where we go today. We sit down with Joel Ponce, CEO and co-founder of Hashku, to break down how gaming, retail media, and commerce now overlap in ways that actually move product. From Roblox and Fortnite worlds to mobile rewarded ads, we map the paths that turn fan energy into measurable outcomes like add-to-cart, store visits, and loyalty that lasts beyond the campaign.
Joel shares how major IP shifted from TV to shelf to immersive spaces, and why “scan to play” on-pack can outperform static signage by creating value at home. We explore digital twins and limited drops that connect physical goods with avatar identity, why Gen Z rates virtual closets so highly, and how cozy gaming and mobile habits expand the audience far beyond stereotypes. If you’ve wondered where to start, we outline a practical crawl–walk–run approach, how to keep brand safety and authenticity intact, and what measurement looks like when multiple publishers speak one language.
Then we tackle AI-driven personalized pricing with clear eyes. Dynamic fares may work for flights, but grocery aisles are built on trust. We weigh the difference between volatility and value, arguing for personalized offers, access, bundles, early drops, over opaque price swings. Finally, we test Instacart’s Caper Cart as a lens on in-store innovation: wayfinding, real-time deals, and checkout speed are wins, but the economics push toward an app-first model that delivers 80 percent of the benefit with better scale and consent.
If you’re building a retail plan for 2025, this conversation will help you choose the right channels, craft native creative for gamers, and measure what matters across platforms. Subscribe, share with your team, and tell us: which bet are you making first, gaming integrations, conversational checkout, or app-powered smart cart experiences?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
What's up, party people?
BV here, and welcome to episodefour of Retail Media Vibes, a
doing business in Bentonvillepodcast.
We are recording live here atPodcast Video Studios.
The rundown for our episode thistime will be gaming and
advertising and commerce,AI-driven personalized pricing,
(00:28):
kind of controversial, andInstacart CaperCard.
All right, we're going to startoff with VibeChat, where we get
to know our guest.
Today, our guest is Joel Ponce.
Joel, welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Excited to be here.
I've known Joel for a long time.
Joel is the CEO and co-founderof HashCoup.
Have talked to you aboutHashCoup quite a lot.
(00:50):
I love what you all do from atechnology and marketing
standpoint.
But let's let the audience getto know you a little bit and
tell us a little bit about yourbackground and obviously about
HashCoup.
Thanks, BB.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
Excited to be here.
I moved here to Northwest,Arkansas back in 2013 to work at
Sachin Sachi X.
That's where you and I had apleasure of meeting and getting
a chance to work together.
The home of shopper marketingand really something that was a
special experience for me thatreally set the foundation to
everything that I've gone on todo in my career so far.
(01:24):
The last five and a half yearsprior to starting HashCoo, I was
at Paramount.
So my journey has really spannedthe world of advertising,
especially at the intersectionof commerce, media and
entertainment, and a lot of dataanalytics in between as well.
So through that journey, I gotto see the evolution of gaming,
both in personal life, my niecesand nephews' lives.
(01:47):
Should have paid more attentionto them much earlier when they
were asking me for Robux forChristmas gifts instead of
physical toys.
Yeah, that's good.
That is interesting.
Yeah.
And then somewhere in thatjourney, while I was at
Paramount, our Nickelodeon teamuh eventually launched the
Nickverse on Roblox, and thatwas really inspiring to me.
It it took me back to momentswhen I was a kid.
Yeah.
(02:07):
Uh where I had not seensomething uh like that in the
world of advertising, wherepeople were spending seven to 21
minutes in in-game experiences,essentially immersive ads,
because our Nickelodeon team hadrealized that you weren't gonna
find the next generation of fansfor SpongeBob or Teenage Mut
Ninja Turtles on cabletelevision anymore.
Right.
We had gone from court, youknow, court cutters to court
(02:30):
nevers.
Yeah, and this is where theywere spending both time and
money.
So it inspired HashCoup toreally say we can be a partner
to help educate both brands andagencies on this world of
advertising and what theopportunities are and what the
right thing is for them.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
You know, getting to know you at SciX, one of the
things I really appreciated wasyour curiosity, right?
And so how you have alwaysreally dug into certain topics
when um you know, never neverhad a doubt that whenever a
topic would come up, that Joelwould not either know it or
figure out how to find out, youknow, all about it, and such a
(03:07):
great, great resource andappreciate that.
And and also, you know, I thinkyou had a great experience
obviously at Saatchi and youknow working with great brands,
but then you know, being able towork with some of the IP that
you know, Nickelodeon andParamount, and like these are
all, you know, these this is IPthat I think many of us know and
love, you know.
Um, you know, my kids grow upgrew up watching you know
(03:28):
Nickelodeon, and you know, Igrew up watching Nickelodeon for
that matter.
You know, you can't do that ontelevision.
Yeah.
I remember that show way back inthe day.
Maybe we should have can't dothat on a podcast, but no, uh
probably not do that.
But anyway, you know, it justjust really, you know, and it
must have been a greatexperience for you to get those
those opportunities.
And I think, you know, Iremember working with you even
(03:52):
during that time, and you wereworking on like how do you bring
this IP to retail, right?
What how what are the ways thatthose that IP can be enabled at
retail, which is you know whatmost of us, I'm sure, watching
this podcast, you know, whatwere some of the things that you
really like learned about youknow bringing IP like that to
retail?
And I'm sure there are a lot ofdo's and don'ts and what works
(04:13):
and what doesn't work, but uhjust like briefly, like what was
what was that part really likefor you working with brands?
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Yeah, one of the things that was always
interesting, we used to talkabout this concept from TV to
the shelf.
So, how do we create aconsistent experience in what
shoppers see, uh whether it'swhile scrolling on their feeds
on social media to the point ofgetting to the store or even
while they're watchingtelevision?
Uh if we could create consistentmessaging, um, whether it's the
characters that they see, themessaging that they see, um,
(04:42):
that would allow us to stand outand not get lost in the noise.
Because as we know, I remembermy days at Satcha, we used to
always talk about how uh when ashopper goes to the store,
especially a big box retailer,they can often be overwhelmed.
Yeah.
And they often end updeselecting a lot of the store,
including entire departmentssometimes, and they go back to
what they're used to.
So, how do you stand out at theshelf?
(05:04):
This is a thing that you know weended up doing masterfully
because in some ways youprovided an opportunity for uh
shopper moms to be the hero oftheir household by getting to
bring uh a product inside thestore that sometimes had their
kids' favorite characters on it.
Right.
That sometimes had opportunitiesfor skin to play or different
sorts of engagements that shedidn't have to pay anything more
(05:26):
for that, but it created anopportunity for that child to
have a moment of surprise anddelay.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Yeah, I think entertainment and partnerships
with entertainment, you know,have a huge opportunity.
And then, you know, for you totransition that into gaming,
right?
And so, you know, timeeveryone's time is so
fractionalized, like where theyspend their time, where they
spend their attention, right?
And so if you can find, youknow, if you can find a channel
uh where people are spending alot of time, obviously there's
(05:52):
an opportunity for commerce andadvertising, and we're gonna dig
into that in more detail in in alittle bit, but you know, it it
seems like such a fun transitionto go with from IP to getting
into the this gaming space andyou know uh establishing or
building HashCoup.
Um, you know, what are some ofthe things that HashCoo does
(06:13):
that you really feel like arereally strong parts of uh
whether it be retail or workingwith brands in that gaming
space?
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Yeah, so at the highest level, HashCo functions
uh as your media innovationpartner really with deep
expertise at the intersection ofgaming and commerce.
And that usually comes to lifethrough in-game integrations, uh
media buys, or even customcontent relevant to the gaming
space.
Yeah.
Uh those are largely the threepillars.
Um, now, what the right mix ofthose is really will depend on
(06:45):
what the brand objective goesfor.
So brand plan, you know, drivingawareness and consideration, or
we drive in ultimately uhtraffic to retail and add to
carts.
Um a lot of our job is providingdeep expertise and education to
our brand partners early on,because as we'll talk about
later on, this is still anemerging space, despite the fact
that it has uh a ton ofattention and time spent in it.
(07:08):
Um and then beyond that, it'seven curating what the right
opportunities are for thembecause it's a highly fragmented
ecosystem.
Um, and what we have found andopportunity that we see is that
when you go to any given, youknow, big player that are
fantastic at what they do, ifyou as a brain go to them and
give them an RFP, their answeris going to be our inventory.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
And that's not necessarily the right answer
every time.
So part of our job is to findwhat are what's the right mix uh
to give you really thisomniprogram that's more
holistic, that does theobjective that you actually need
it to do.
Uh that's we pride ourselves onthat and and always even finding
ways to develop technologyaround that to do that better.
For example, measuring programsin um multi-channels,
(07:50):
multi-publishers in a singleview.
Okay, and having those speak onelanguage.
We think that's important aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Yeah.
So all right, I appreciate yougiving me that background.
I think that was that was great.
Um, all right, we're gonna getinto now some of the topics,
some of the things thateverybody's been wanting to hear
more about, and we're gonna dothat now.
So all right, we're gonna moveon now with a little bit of our
our topical banter.
We're gonna we have a few quickhits we're gonna start with.
(08:16):
So, first thing we want to talkabout, we want to I do anyway.
I don't know if Joel wants to, Iwant to congratulate Chunk the
Bear.
All right, so Chunk the Bear.
So what I love about Chunk theBear is a couple of things.
One is this bear actually justwon a competition to see who
could gain the most weight forhibernation.
(08:39):
Um, and this is a promotion, Iguess I never heard of this
competition before, but this isa competition that they do in
Alaska's Katamai uh NationalPark and Preserve.
And so Chunk actually won bybeing an estimated 1200 pounds,
which is kind of what I feellike I gain over the holiday
break, to be honest with you.
(09:00):
But Chunk won has a broken jawand now gained the other bears.
Jeez.
And the other thing is he camein second three times before you
and now he finally won.
So it feels like those of youthat might know this, like the
Susan Lucci of the this bearcompetition, which Susan Lucci,
she actually came in second on alot of uh Emmys, I think it was
(09:23):
Daytime Emmys uh in the soapopera category.
Anyway, regardless.
So, like, congrats to Chunk theBear.
Um, one of the things, whatwould be like one question you
would think about when you werethinking about this kind of
competition?
I'm I'm worried about Chunk theBear.
I don't know if he broke his jobduring the competition or prior
to the competition.
(09:44):
That's funny.
I wonder how many salmon youwould actually have to eat in
order to weigh 1200 pounds.
Yeah, it's uh probablythousands.
It's fascinating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um so but one of the things Iwas thinking about with Chunk
the Bear is like, all right, whoweighed the bear?
I also wonder how close secondplace was.
Like, is Chunk the Bear beatinghim by large margin?
(10:06):
Or yeah, it's it was probablyclose.
It was probably close.
But what was funny because I'mlike, all right, how do you get
a bear on a scale?
They actually used uh used LiDARlaser technology in order to
basically estimate the weight ofthe bear.
So they track these bears andthey weigh them.
So uh about 1,200 pounds is whatthe estimated weight was.
(10:28):
I didn't know you could useLIDAR to get to get it to
weight, and I'm glad nobody wasinjured or or killed trying to
weigh the brown bears in Alaska.
All right, it's amazing.
Yeah, all right.
So next story, next story we'regonna go to is um Nike and
Costco collab.
They are collabing on a pair ofNike Dunks sneakers uh called
(10:51):
Kirkland Dunks.
So, those of you that don'tknow, Kirkland is Costco's store
brand.
Um they these sneakers have likea fuzzy uh or a fleece-like uh
covering.
Um, they've got the Kirklandlogo on the heel tab, and I
think the probably the most funfeature, and this is one of the
things I liked about like aboutNike Dunks, is they've got the
(11:13):
details.
Yep.
And the details really domatter, but um they have a
dollar fifty hot dog graphic onthe insole.
So if you take the insole outand you flip it around, there's
a little air pack where it'ssupposed to be cushioning for
your heel.
It's got the$1.50, you know, uhhot dog, which that's what
(11:33):
Costco is well known for.
So I love love the detail onthis.
Um so you know, Joel, you know,you and I are both into sneakers
and we both love a good collab.
You know, what what's yourwhat's your take on this collab?
SPEAKER_01 (11:45):
I loved it.
Uh first of all, my wifeactually texted this to me.
Oh, yeah.
So uh it got her attention.
And we're not even Costcoshoppers.
So this got me to think aboutCostco, right?
Which was interesting.
And uh, but it also feels kindof like an inside joke or
something playful.
Yeah.
Like if you are somebody that'sshopping at Costco and a fan of
Kirkland's, this feels like theperfect fun, collectible,
(12:08):
playful shoe for you to get.
Yeah.
Um, and I think there'ssomething interesting about
that.
I mean, think about all the PRthat it's gotten.
Yeah.
It's gotten a lot more attentionthan uh maybe others would have
expected.
So it's been fun to see.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
Yeah.
I wonder what would be uh likeif Sam's Club had a collab with
what would be some of the thingsthat you would I would I would
feel like there would be someblue, right?
Blue color.
And I think it's alwaysinteresting, you know, a lot of
times there's collabs withsneaker boutiques and certain
brands, you know, and to to dothat with a store or retailer,
(12:39):
to do one with like a map, youknow, obviously club masks like
Costco is is obviously aninteresting, interesting take.
So um today I actually have on acollab myself, I'm wearing uh a
pair of sockanies that are acollab with Dunkin' Donuts.
Um so there's a lot of greatdetail in these, and you know,
that it brings it brings out alot of the key pieces of of
(13:00):
Dunkin' Donuts.
Um and you know, you know, I'moriginally from Boston, and so
that you know Dunkin' Donutsmeans a lot to me.
And uh those of you that uh areat SatyX, you probably know you
know that I've worn these onmany occasions on many a stage
at SatyX in the past.
And so, you know, these actuallyhave a good meaning to me, but I
do I just do love the way theybrought the collaboration uh
(13:22):
together.
So and you got some it lookslike some some super cool kicks
on too.
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
Yeah, this is a collaboration Nike did with
Artifact actually inspired bygaming gamer culture.
Yeah, and it's this idea of uhwhen you go to Fortnite now,
actually you can buy sneakers uhto you know deck out your
character.
So they were very early in kindof identifying that as a part of
uh what was happening in theworld, and this is a real life
representation of it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Yeah, very cool, very, very cool.
Um all right, so I couldprobably talk about sneakers for
the whole hour, but that's notwhy you all have tuned in.
So let's move on to anotherquick hit.
So OpenAI just this week uhannounced their chat GPT
checkout.
So now you can be in your chatinterface on ChatGPT and you can
(14:08):
buy products directly.
Uh right now they're startingoff with with Etsy.
Um future will be Shopify, and Ithink once the Shopify thing
hits, it will really be a hugeopportunity uh because so many
of D2C products are sold throughthrough Shopify stores.
Um but it's just really coolbecause it's just like it's an
(14:29):
instant checkout.
If you if you're looking for aproduct and then you see the buy
button, you can just buy and dothe entire process uh there.
And so, you know, this is reallykind of a you know, the word
conversational shopping um isyou know maybe the term that I
think is starting to percolatearound this this type of
shopping.
And so, you know, you know, whatare your thoughts about
(14:51):
conversational shopping?
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
It's interesting because when I read this topic,
uh a couple thoughts came tomind.
One is it is the element ofconversational shopping, but
also they emphasize uh theagenda commerce protocol.
Yeah.
So uh you wrote a great articleabout this recently as well.
Uh one of the things that I Ithink about my own purchasing
journey, and and certainly itdepends on the category, but
(15:14):
when it's a let's say highdollar value item, I often go to
YouTube to search for in-depthinformation.
There's I usually get influencedby YouTube.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, but in this case, I waslike, oh, this could maybe
shorten my research process insome cases and also provide
really thoughtfulrecommendations.
Now, there is also a question ofhow much will I trust it and
(15:35):
maybe less at the beginning,more over time.
Yeah.
Um, one thing I foundinteresting about their release
is that they highlight thatthese recommendations are not
going to be uh paid for orsponsored.
Um I suspect that will change.
Right.
Uh I imagine just like everyother retail media uh group in
the space, they're gonna havetheir own you know offering
where advertisers will have theopportunity to participate in
(15:55):
the paid way.
Um it's interesting.
I mean, I think at its beststate, it's you talking to a
friend.
It's me talking to my cousin andsaying, Hey, I'm looking for
something.
What do you recommend?
It gives me some choices, and Isay, That's great.
Add to cart.
I think in a bad state, it's uhI want uh, you know, item ABC,
(16:16):
and it gives me something thatwas not at all what I wanted.
Yeah.
Uh so I think it's gonna gothrough an evolution, but the
thing I'm excited about is it'sa good beginning.
And I think these things andthese technologies are evolving
so quickly that the next two tothree years, uh, I think it's
gonna be a part of our dailylives.
SPEAKER_00 (16:31):
Yeah, and I think you know, there are different
ways that people shop fordifferent items, and I think,
you know, in some cases thatthis might be the right way for
you know for certain certaincases.
So I think it's complimentary,yeah.
It's not in replacement of.
Right, for for sure, for sure,right?
I mean, and I think you know, Italked about this at the uh
Embark Retail Innovation Summitwhere like there's we're at Emot
(16:54):
now.
Everywhere is a moment of truth.
You can literally buy anythinganytime, anywhere.
And you know, I think you know,there are so many ways to ways
to do that.
So it'll be really interestingto see how this evolves.
I know this is just the firststep in what is going to
continue to grow and evolve.
So all right.
So now we're gonna get into ourmain topics uh this this
(17:16):
episode.
And you know, the first onewe're gonna talk about is an
area that you know and love verywell, right?
It's your it's your yourbackground.
Um we're gonna talk about gamingin advertising and commerce,
right?
And as we spoke about earlier,you know, everyone's time and
people's time, you know, isfractionalized, but there's a
huge amount of time being spenton in gaming.
(17:39):
I think you know, for a whilethere was the you know, the the
conversation that everybody's agamer, right?
And so it's just your your mom'sa gamer, your grandma's a gamer,
everybody's a gamer, right?
And so, and that's and that'strue.
I think gaming as a form ofentertainment is you know
definitely part of part of ourculture, and you know, you see
that quite a bit.
(17:59):
Um, there's also been a lot ofconversation about gamification.
How do you take certainexperiences and turn them into a
game?
Um and you know, whenever whenwhen people are spending time
doing a certain thing,marketers, advertisers want to
find out how can I, you know,how can I reach that audience?
How can I reach them at theright time?
(18:20):
And I think there's theconversation about like I I'd
like to play in gaming, but I'mafraid.
I think brands a lot of timesare afraid to get into gaming.
I think they they're afraid ofthe gaming community, to be
quite honest.
Like I think they're afraid,like if I put my ad in a game
and it interferes somehow withtheir game, I'm gonna get so
(18:41):
much backlash on on social andin digital formats that people
are just gonna, you know, I'mgonna be dealing with that for
months, right?
And or people will never neversee my brand ever again, right?
Because they'll shut me down orsomething.
But so like from yourperspective, like I think I've
got to believe that there aresome ways that you want to
approach it.
I think there's been some waysthat some brands have approached
(19:03):
it and have done it well.
Yep.
Um, I would love to hear fromyou, like, where where do you
see the current state of theindustry and kind of like where
how did it kind of get to whereit is today?
And where can brands play thatare very it's where can brands
play that really help uh helpthem reach those gamers?
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Yeah, it's a fascinating topic.
Um, gaming as a category um hasabout as much time spent uh
really across generations, butcertainly uh with Gen Z,
Millennials, and Gen Alpha, uh,a little bit less so with uh Gen
X, but growing.
Um time spent is comparable tosocial.
(19:42):
Um and many advertisers I talkto say, Joel, this has been on
our radar for years as a placepeople are spending time, but we
haven't done it for one of a fewreasons.
One is we don't know where tostart.
There's a whole lot of thingsout there, we're not sure where
to begin.
Two, we're not sure how to dothis in a brand safe way, or in
a way, to your point, that isauthentic both to us and for
(20:03):
them.
Yeah, that's really important.
The other one is also uh, isthis right for us?
Meaning right for our audience,there's a lot of defaulting to
it's kids.
Right.
Or sometimes it's kids or dudein his basement.
Um, and there's a lot more thanthat.
So to your point, uh, gameritself has an interesting
moniker and stigma behind it.
So what we find is whenever youask a room full of people, do
(20:25):
you consider yourself a gamer?
It's like 20 to 30 percent ofthe room, if that.
Right.
Uh but then you ask them, oh, doyou play any mobile games?
Candy Crush, Words with Friends,Royal.
Way more hands go up for sure.
Or even people that are playingStardew Valley or Animal
Crossing, like that's cozygaming.
That's a category of games.
Cozy gaming.
It's a real thing.
Really?
That's interesting.
Uh so part of it isunderstanding what's happening
(20:46):
across the board.
It is a form of uhentertainment, a way that people
sometimes disconnect.
Um, and it's understanding allof that and then giving them the
right place to start.
So we think of it as a thiscrawl, walk, run approach.
Um, and it also depends on,again, who is the audience.
So if you are trying to reach uhGen Alpha coming up, but
(21:08):
certainly Gen Z, a platform likeRoblox and Fortnite makes a lot
of sense.
Uh but then what is the outcome?
What are you trying to do?
Right.
Uh they're fantastic at drivingbrand awareness right now.
Right.
Um, they're developing certaincapabilities that will enable
commerce opportunities, but Iwould say they're that is not
their bread and butter to date.
Um but for example, Roblox nowhas uh immersive commerce
(21:29):
capabilities that they'vestarted to roll out.
It's in its infancy.
Uh, but you're starting to seereally interesting opportunities
where I went and boughtsomething on Walmart Discovered
within the game.
Yeah.
Uh and I got something shippedto my house, but I also got a
digital twin as a gift withpurchase.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
I I really like that.
And I I think you know, Artifactwith Nike did did the same
thing, correct?
Like you bought the shoe and yougot the NFT, right?
I don't think it was for everyevery pair sold, but that was
one of the it was really thereverse.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
You got the digital item and then they would ship
you the other one.
So they took it as pre-orders,which was a good way to limit
how many they had to produce.
Sure.
And it also created limitedquantities of these.
So then there isn't an infinitenumber or an undefined number of
these.
There's we could look at thesoul inside and tell you exactly
how many of these were made.
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that and that addresses awhole nother issue, not
necessarily where we wereheaded, but I just it just came
to me that whole idea of thedigital item and the physical
item being, you know, beingpurchased at the same at the
same time.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
And the digital item itself is fascinating.
Like I think people are stilltrying to wrap their head around
this, but to give you somecontext, uh Parsons did a
Parsons School of Design did astudy with Roblox where uh out
of the Gen Z participants in thestudy, uh 56% of them actually
stated that their virtual closetwas worth as much, if not more,
to them than their real lifecloset.
Yeah.
And at first it surfaced level,you're like, that's insane.
(22:50):
But then you think about it,you're like, well, actually,
more people are probably seeingtheir virtual items on their
avatar than might actually seethem in real life in some cases.
Uh so it's uh an element ofbragging rights, especially when
it's a limited item, when theyhad to have been there to have
gotten that.
Um so we see a lot ofopportunities, frankly, across
generations.
One thing people don't thinkabout actually is baby boomers
(23:13):
is one of the fastest growingsegments in mobile gaming
specifically.
Yeah.
Um, that's it's not somethingyou think about, but they have
more leisure time, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
And how like one of the things that to try to bring
it back to bring it to retailfor a minute, like, you know,
there's always this how do I howdo I activate an online person
to an offline experience, right?
And so, you know, from from youryou know, from your experience,
what have you seen?
Like, what are some some goodways, like if a brand wants to
(23:43):
engage through gaming in orderto drive an in-store um sale,
let's say, or or engagement, youknow, what are some what are
some things to to help that,help facilitate that?
Because it does seem like therecould be a disconnect when you
know if you're immersed in agame and then now you're trying
to transition your mindset tosomebody that's a shopper in a
store.
Like, what are some thoughtsaround that?
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
Yeah, there's uh a bunch of different things that
uh we think are happening andand are being done really well.
So let's start with e-com andthen maybe move to the store.
So from a dot-com perspective,especially, um, there's you can
leverage uh a lot of mobilegaming um opportunities like
rewarded video or playable adsuh that actually give the player
(24:27):
value in the form of more gems,coins, or gold to keep playing
the game and um and theyactually do a fantastic job of
driving click-through to aretail destination, and playable
ads specifically are soimmersive uh that we're seeing
them drive significant commerceloads.
So people actually adding theproduct to their cart uh because
they're spending more time withthat experience.
(24:48):
And right, I really introducethat to people as it's almost
gaming's version of uh listen tothis ad and have 30 minutes of
free listening on Spotify.
Right.
Um, and you're starting to seethese rewarded opportunities
happen both in mobile gaming butalso on Roblox.
Right.
Um, you're starting to seethings at retail itself that
people are adding a QR code ontheir pack to say scan to play
(25:11):
that drives directly to uhin-game integration or custom
experience on Roblox, where uhplayers will collect fruits,
coins, whatever, and exchange itfor in-game wearable items.
Again, to Shopper Mom, that isnow a packaging that is worth
the same as a packaging rightbeside it.
This one has a scan to playmechanism and it now gives you
know kids in the householdsomething fun to do.
(25:33):
Uh, they're seeing highervelocity of sales for those
items than those that don't havean experience like that.
Um, you also have formallicensing partnerships, of
course, whether it's puttingNintendo on pack or other IP
that's known.
Um, but I think part of thething that's important is not
just the channel or the tactic,it's what is the audience
targeting?
How do we reach the exact rightaudience?
(25:53):
How do we do geo-targetingaround the stores that you're
trying to drive traffic to?
How do we leverage whether it'sbrand lift or sales of studies
to actually show you what'shappened, verified by a third
party?
Um those things are important.
SPEAKER_00 (26:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is interesting.
You talked about you know havingan on-pack, um, which that feels
like that's probably the mosttangible way to get people to
engage, you know, physical todigital, because even if you
have signage and so forth instore, yes, it can, I think it
can reflect what's on pack, butthat's what you take home with
you, right?
And so then, you know, you'remaybe your your kid isn't there
(26:28):
with you, or you know, the gamerisn't there, they can then
engage once they once they gethome.
SPEAKER_01 (26:33):
Um, even participating in events and
experiences, I would say.
So when you can bring an eventand experience, promote it
online or in the store wherethey get to be a part of a
tournament, for example, yeah,where some of their favorite
streamers or gamers are going tobe a part of, and they get to
participate in that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
Uh, and it's brought to you through a brand you know
and love at a retailer.
Yep.
Uh creating moments andexperiences, we think, is a
really important uh opportunityand place that gaming can play
in ways that other uhtraditional display or video
units cannot.
SPEAKER_00 (27:06):
Yep.
So what would be a few tips thatyou would give a brand that is
considering getting into thisspace?
And most likely those brands areactivating through retail,
right?
So they're working with the youknow, the Walmarts of the world,
right?
And so what would be a few tipsor things that they should think
about or consider before gettinginto the space or really getting
(27:27):
into it?
SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think first and foremost is
aligning on who is the audiencethat you're trying to go after,
you know, and really defining uhwhere do they spend time in
gaming, why do they spend timein gaming, like really take your
time to understand that first.
Uh that should also that shouldinform what you do, but also how
you show up in those spaces.
(27:49):
Yeah.
Uh to your point, you don't justwant to take banner ad that
you're doing in traditionalother forms in the gaming space.
You want to be able to speaktheir language, you want to have
contextually relevant messagingthat's really important.
For sure.
Um, and we help you know ourbrand partners uh do that,
navigate that journey.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Yeah, that's cool.
All right.
I know again, that's probablyanother one of those topics we
could probably talk to for talkabout for a long time, but we're
gonna move on to our next topic.
So we're gonna talk aboutAI-driven personalized pricing.
And some I think depending onyour viewpoint, this topic can
you know be a little bitcontroversial, right?
And so um, you know, AI is nowgetting involved in everything,
(28:31):
right?
And so now we have AI-poweredpricing, right?
So since we have AI, we have allthese abilities, this ability to
analyze data and make changes,right?
And so there is already that'sthis has already existed for a
while in in the way of like Uberor airlines, right?
(28:51):
You have surge pricing, so youknow during times of, I mean, it
really capitalizes on supply anddemand, right?
So during you know, heavy, heavyvolume prices go up, during
lower volume, prices go down,right?
So I think to a certain extent,I think a lot of uh a lot of
people are used to or canunderstand that.
Let's say maybe they're used toa you can accept it, right?
(29:14):
With airlines, I think we allhave experienced some way, like
you go and you look at a flight,and then you go go back and you
look at it again, and the thecost is up, you know, versus
what it was before, you know,and so are is there are there
things that are are um impactingthat, you know, through through
AI and other pricing methods.
Now, what if you take this tothe store, right?
(29:36):
And you know, now we've got youknow at shelf we have more
digital, digital tags, you know,digital um pricing, uh pricing
happening at the shelf now whereit feels like there's
opportunity to influence thosenumbers on on the at the shelf
right then and right then andthere, which you know when it
(29:57):
gets down to one item, like canthe should the price go?
Go up, like you know, or whenthere's a volume of them, you
know, does the price go down?
Like I'm not sure how I feelreally about this.
I can see on the retailer side,you know, the opportunity to you
know basically capitalize onsupply and demand.
Um, but I also think that insome ways it could feel
(30:18):
predatory, yeah.
Right?
You're taking advantage of asituation and you know, whether
it's you know milk and eggs andyou're raising the prices and
lowering the prices and you'redoing that real time.
I know Wendy's kind of had athing going on a little a little
while ago where they were doinguh variable pricing, and um that
(30:38):
got a lot of backlash on onvariable pricing there.
So I'd love to hear your take.
Like, you know, what how do youfeel about what variable
pricing, AI-driven pricing, ifyou will, um, how it impacts uh
impacts retail and impactsobviously shoppers and
consumers.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Yeah, I think there's to your point, um
there's a risk of losing trustwith the customer if done
incorrectly.
Um so I think people couldretailers or brands might get
excited about some of the supplyand demand thing, but as a
consumer, I may not accept that.
I mean I want that.
I think in its best form, um itis giving me personalized offers
(31:22):
um and you know whether it'sindividually or even as
segments.
So from a segment perspective,think you're a Sams Club member,
and because you're a Sams Clubmember, you get this exclusive
offer or better bundle price orsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
Um it's loyalty, right?
It it's it's it's a it's aloyalty program to a certain
extent.
SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
And that can still drive value to the retailer or
the brand because if they knowthe lifetime customer value,
they know how I'm voting with mydollars, right?
Uh then they can actually bringbetter experiences to me, which
will likely get me to want tospend more with them.
Um, you know, we've talked aboutsneakers earlier today, but it's
like if Nike knows that we'respending X on sneakers or always
trying to get into drops, butnot able to get into some of
(32:05):
those drops, like what anincredible opportunity to offer
us something special.
Either you have the ability toget into this job before anyone
else, um, you you know, thisgroup of people is able to buy
this item, and only this groupof people will have the ability
to buy it.
There's multiple forms of thisthat if you look at it as a way
to provide personalized offersum and call it something better
(32:27):
to the consumer based on thedata, I think it's good.
I think at its worst, it couldbe look like surveillance
pricing.
And then all of a sudden I feellike people are following me
around the web and just tryingto get the maximum value for my
dollar.
SPEAKER_00 (32:39):
I have some breaking news for you, Joel.
It's a real thing.
It's happening.
Yeah, people are following youaround on the web.
100%.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think it'sit's it's really interesting.
I like I'm I just startedthinking about the loyalty
angle, right?
And and you know what it and Icould see that actually going
badly too, right?
So what you do is you raise yourprices to a high level, yeah,
(33:03):
and then you give discounts toyour loyalist loyal shoppers,
right?
And so it's like, is that eventhe right thing to do?
SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
And do you even trust that the price that
they're saying was the originalprice of the street?
SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
Trust is such trust is such you know that's what you
started with, and I thinkeroding trust, which is probably
the most important thing to havehave between a retailer and a
brand with a shopper, is likeyou're that was the first, that
was a great, great uh call.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think you know, I thinkthat is what this is all about
is trust.
(33:35):
I think maybe if you do it in inthe right way, you know, maybe
you tie it into a loyaltyprogram, you know.
I you know again, it seems likewe're talking about Nike a lot
in this in this show, but likefor me, I've been a Nike member
since 2007.
I don't see any better benefitfor being that member and
spending Lord knows how muchmoney with Nike over that period
(33:57):
of time than anyone else.
And that's disappointing to me,right?
Um, but I don't think I pay moreor less when I go to Nike.com
than anybody else that has thesame access.
But maybe I should.
SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
Um if they could tap into who Nike customers are and
offer them certain deals anddiscounts, that could be
interesting.
And I think we're moving in thatdirection, right?
SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
Yeah, so when I was when I was at my former the
agency I was before Sachi, whenI was at the marketing arm, one
of our clients was JCPenney.
And you know, JCPenney basicallyconditioned their shoppers to
wait for a coupon code everyweek.
And we that's what we do.
(34:41):
We were sending text messages totheir to their loyalty customers
um about a coupon code that theycan go and they go shop.
And so then I can't remember thename of the CEO at the time, he
said, We're not gonna do thatanymore, we're gonna stop.
And sales tanked because theywere way like so.
In in a scenario where now wehave these dynamic pricing, and
(35:04):
then you get get people used tothat variability, do you really
like is it do you really have animpact on that customer to
really shop with you only whenthings are in their favor,
right?
And not be that loyalist thatyou know you really want them to
(35:25):
be.
SPEAKER_01 (35:25):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think uh in general, it's partof the reason why under this
topic I think about even beyondpersonal price, personalized
pricing and more personalizedoffers.
Yeah.
Because I think offers can be,it doesn't have to be a lower
price.
It can be, you know, brand brandtelling you about their new
Halloween items or their newChristmas items.
(35:46):
Yeah, uh, maybe I want to knowabout that or have access to
purchase it first.
That only works in somecategories, of course, but um I
think when you think about itbeyond pricing, I think it gets
really interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's where I thinkmaybe the opportunity is isn't
really necessarily the dynamicsaround the actual price at the
shelf, but the what theopportunities are for your
loyalists using AI in order toknow their purchase behavior and
their propensity for otheropportunities.
And you know, in in the space ofdigital, we talk about um, you
know, we talk about discovery alot.
(36:20):
Like here's an opportunity, likeyou know who your loyalists are,
you know, like so why not givethem an offer at a at a special
specialized price?
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
Well, even, I mean, this probably bigger combo as
well, but even what is the rightmessage to reach out to to them
versus somebody else?
Like right message, right place,right time.
Um I think AI is gonna enableall this, not just the pricing,
not just the offers, but likeyour ads might look very
different than mine, and theymight say something different to
you than me based on what we'vepurchased or you know, or
(36:50):
reviews online or something likethat.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
All right, we're gonna pause on that topic now,
and we're gonna move on to ourthird topic today, which you
know does still talk aboutin-store, right?
So we're gonna talk aboutInstacart caper carts, which is
uh, you know, a technology thatI don't know, for some reason I
was enamored with when I was atCES back in January this year.
I had a chance to experience acaper cart.
(37:14):
Um, and I really found some ofthe things that the caper carts
were doing were really, reallyinteresting.
Um, you know, so for those ofyou that don't know, uh uh
Instacart acquired a companycalled Caper AI back in 2021.
Um, and they basically havebuilt a smart cart, if you will,
and and those have um differentsensors, it has a scale, um, has
(37:39):
a lot of um interactivecomponents to that cart in order
to and a little screen to helpfacilitate that shopping
experience in in a store.
Um, which, you know, I thinkbeing a shopper marketing, we've
always we always have thoughtabout okay, what would be the
Cadillac of shopping carts andwhat would that unlock?
And I think you know, to acertain extent, the the caper
(38:01):
cart is is something to to thatuh to that effect.
And you know, there are theseare in retail uh retailers like
Kroger or Wake Fern Shop Rightum as well.
And so they're they're usingthese carts.
And you know, I I think there'sa couple of components to the
caper cart that I find to bereally great, which is you know,
(38:25):
first of all, the technologythat goes into the cart itself
to be able to weigh your foodand weigh, you know, weigh your
produce and all that stuff andadd it directly to your shopping
experience and shopping cart isabsolutely brilliant, right?
Um and so, but on the otherhand, like trying to deploy that
you know a large number of capercarts, I've got to imagine is
(38:46):
pretty pr a pretty expensiveexperience.
So um, you know, I like likeyour point of view on you know,
do you think a cart like thatdoes it really add to the
experience, you know, or iseverybody just good with their
mobile phone and and the thewire shopping cart that they're
already used to?
What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
I think it's fun.
Uh I've never done it myself.
Uh the idea of it soundsinteresting, and there's
definitely moments that I couldsee that have actually being
helpful.
Like there's times that I wantto know where a certain item is
in the store and have to go findsomebody in the store to tell
me.
And sometimes they're right andsometimes they're not.
So uh the fact that it would beaware of what aisle I'm in, and
(39:30):
maybe I can even somehow tell itwhat my shopping list is, like
things like that I get excitedabout.
Uh, I think they're interesting.
I think a lot of value will goto the retailer, of course.
Um, you know, I think earlytests that they're showing are
people are spending more, uh,there's more, there's more
loyalty.
Uh like, and I mean, I went toyou know, Fresh Market yesterday
(39:54):
and I saw they had an offer oflike buy two chocolate bars and
you get a better deal than one.
That's not even with a capercard.
I bought two chocolate bars.
Yeah, well, like what if I wasin any given aisle and because
it knows what I'm putting in thecar, it gives me relevant offers
that I may not have been awareof.
I I could set see that beingvalue to the shopper, but also
driving higher carded value.
So it's gonna be incrediblyexpensive to do.
(40:15):
I don't know the economicsbehind it, but sure maybe
through monetizing the adinventory, what getting
increased, yeah, gettingincreased uh basket sizes, and
maybe even more like people on aloyalty program.
Um, maybe that actually equatesto maybe it's a wash and that's
enough for it to be a win.
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
Right.
Yeah, I just wonder, you know,would you shop at a store
specifically because it had acart, a smart, we'll call it a
smart cart, yeah, smart cart,um, like a caper cart.
Would you shop there overshopping somewhere like you
know, a mass personally Iwouldn't.
Uh I wouldn't make a decision togo to a place because of that
versus not.
Yeah, it's so frustrating to mewhen I go to a different Home
(40:58):
Depot or different lows that I'mused to going to.
Yeah.
So having something to help withthe wayfinding.
And I know you look it up on theon your phone, you can spread it
through the app.
You can it'll tell you whataisle things are.
SPEAKER_01 (41:08):
There's something interesting about it, like it's
just here and it's on thescreen.
I'm adding products to the cart.
So I think it's helpful, but Ithink it would help my
experience.
I don't know if I would chooseto go to the retailer for it.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:18):
Especially if I eventually realize every time I
go I spend more than I want to.
Well, if we can tie thatprevious topic into this topic,
like you know, if you're on youhave that cart, right, and it
knows where you are in store, itcould provide additional
incentives.
I mean, or it could detect yournext to it and change the price
on at the shelf right beforeyou're about to put it in your
cart.
Who knows?
But I think it's like anin-store cookie.
SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
Yeah.
Like it's following you around,it knows what you're doing.
Uh, if nothing else, it's areally uh expensive but probably
compelling data researchproject.
SPEAKER_00 (41:49):
Yeah.
My my feeling about where theopportunity would be for Caper
Cart and Instacart specificallywould be to you know build all
of that technology into yourapp, into your phone app, right?
Of course, the sensor piece isgonna be you know, the scales
and stuff.
That's not really gonna bepossible unless I guess maybe if
you have LIDAR, maybe you canright from the bears, right?
(42:12):
Maybe you can use LIDAR tofigure out how much something
weighs.
But for that, but bring it intoyour device, right?
And then really bring thatbecause I think it's like more
of an immersive shoppingexperience when you have that
cape, when you have the capercart, in order to you know tie
that into your shopping journeywithin the within the store,
your list and your gamificationand all that.
(42:33):
Like, why can't you just bringthat into you know your your
mobile device and bring thatexperience and let that be the
way to to do the same thing, andthen you can scale that much,
much faster.
SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
It's funny because even as you say it, I was like,
you know, a cart that just hasspace for your phone to go in
there and you're you upload theapp and then your phone is oh
yeah, it's good, yeah,significantly reduced cost, and
you're opting in to do it atthat point.
You're maybe not gonna get thewave, but you get 80% of the
benefit.
SPEAKER_00 (43:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we'll see how you knowcaper carts and other smart
carts get adopted and whatimpact they have on shopping.
So uh, all right.
Well, we're gonna move on now toour vibe check.
All right, now it's time forvibe check, which is our game
time.
And so we're gonna play our gamebold vibe.
(43:21):
So, Joel, um, I'm going to throwout a thought, a little sentence
here.
Um, might be a trend, might besomething totally random, might
be something that we talkedabout.
And you just have to give meyour first gut reaction, okay?
Got it.
Is it no problem, right?
So don't overthink it.
Okay, are you ready?
Yep.
All right.
Uh Roblox will replace Instagramas Gen Z's brand discovery
(43:46):
platform.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
Interesting.
Uh, in some ways, I think it hasstarted to.
Um, I believe Roblox andFortnite are where certainly Gen
Alpha and Gen Z go to.
Um, I believe it's gonna be animportant part.
I can't say it's gonna replaceit.
Okay, Instagram will continue tobe important, as will TikTok.
SPEAKER_00 (44:04):
All right.
In-game advertising is moreeffective than connected TV.
SPEAKER_01 (44:10):
At driving uh certainly traffic to retail,
absolutely.
Um but I've seen CTV do a goodjob at actually driving sales
lift when done at scale.
SPEAKER_00 (44:21):
Okay.
All right.
AI pricing will make sales feelless fair, not more
personalized.
SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
I worry that at the beginning, yes, it'll absolutely
feel you'll see more backlashbefore you see a lot of
excitement.
SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
Shoppers will trust retailers less because of
AI-driven pricing.
I think that's a risk as well.
Yeah, you started the wholething with that, didn't you?
Smart carts will become the mostvaluable in-store retail media
channel, in-store retail mediachannel.
SPEAKER_01 (44:55):
I struggle to accept that one.
I think in some ways it goesback to old school, you know,
going back to our Sachi days,but navigation, education, and
inspiration, just navigating thestore.
SPEAKER_00 (45:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:05):
I think the store format itself, not the cart,
will be the thing that'simportant.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (45:10):
The Nike and Costco collab is the sneaker collab of
the year.
What do you thought?
SPEAKER_01 (45:18):
Uh I don't know.
It's fun, it's playful, but I'mI'm sure there will be others
and probably have been othersthat stand out more than that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:24):
Okay.
And last one, Costco's hot dogcombo is the most iconic value
meal in America.
They've really stuck to it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:35):
Um it might be, it isn't for me personally, just
because I've never lived in aplace where Costco is huge.
Right.
Uh, so for me, I don't know.
Like, I gotta go to mychildhood, like the happy meal
from McDonald's.
Like, it just isn't.
If it's really the most valuemeal, but it it was a moment of
joy as a kid.
SPEAKER_00 (45:53):
Yeah, I I here's here's what I'll say.
I like everybody knows about thehot dog meal at Costco.
Right.
Everybody, like everybody knows.
And they've stuck to thatpricing.
Even if you don't shop atCostco, like I've I mean, I
think I may have been in Costcotwice in my life, yeah.
Right.
So, you know, I don't um, buteverybody knows about it.
So in a way, I think it has anit is iconic in a way.
(46:16):
Um, but I I do hear you likenostalgia does play a part, and
you know, for for for me, likeyeah, value meals, you know, uh
or uh happy meals at McDonald'sare definitely big, big for me.
So great.
Well, thanks for playing thatplaying that game.
Um, the great answers for sure.
All right, party people.
It is time to wrap this one up.
(46:36):
I want to thank my guest, JoelPonce, for chopping it up with
me on on this show.
So thanks for being here.
Happy to be here be here, Joel.
Um, do you have uh any any lastwords, anything you'd like to
promote?
SPEAKER_01 (46:49):
I appreciate the opportunity first and foremost.
And uh if anybody wants to diveinto the world of gaming
advertising, uh learn more aboutwhat's happening and what you
can do to leverage gaming as achannel for growth, reach out to
me.
You can find me on LinkedIn,just type in Joel Ponts and
reach out to me at Joel atHashCoo.com.
SPEAKER_00 (47:08):
All right.
Awesome.
And the big question will youcome back?
Oh, 100%.
Okay.
Well, if you're not gonna wearsneakers, I would just edit that
part out if you said no, so nota big deal.
I also have a shout out.
So uh episode one, I had TomBryden on the show, and I want
to do a quick shout out to Tom.
He recently received his U.S.
citizenship.
(47:28):
So I want to congratulate Tomand welcome to America, my
friend.
So amazing.
Yeah.
Um, in a future podcast, I'mgonna do a mailbag show.
So ask BV almost anything.
So if you have any questions,almost anything.
I love it.
If you have any questions, goahead and send them my way at
retailmediavibes at gmail.com.
I hope you enjoyed the podcast.
(47:49):
Please like it, share it,comment, etc.
It helps get the word out on thepodcast.
So please do that.
And thank you so much forlistening.
And I promise I will do betternext time.
Be the out.
What's up, party people?
BV here, and welcome to episodefour of Retail Media Vibes, a
doing business in Bentonvillepodcast.
We are recording live here atPodcast Video Studios.
The rundown for our episode thistime will be gaming and
advertising and commerce,AI-driven personalized pricing,
(00:28):
kind of controversial, andInstacart CaperCard.
All right, we're going to startoff with VibeChat, where we get
to know our guest.
Today, our guest is Joel Ponce.
Joel, welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Excited to be here.
I've known Joel for a long time.
Joel is the CEO and co-founderof HashCoup.
Have talked to you aboutHashCoup quite a lot.
(00:50):
I love what you all do from atechnology and marketing
standpoint.
But let's let the audience getto know you a little bit and
tell us a little bit about yourbackground and obviously about
HashCoup.
Thanks, BB.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
Excited to be here.
I moved here to Northwest,Arkansas back in 2013 to work at
Sachin Sachi X.
That's where you and I had apleasure of meeting and getting
a chance to work together.
The home of shopper marketingand really something that was a
special experience for me thatreally set the foundation to
everything that I've gone on todo in my career so far.
(01:24):
The last five and a half yearsprior to starting HashCoo, I was
at Paramount.
So my journey has really spannedthe world of advertising,
especially at the intersectionof commerce, media and
entertainment, and a lot of dataanalytics in between as well.
So through that journey, I gotto see the evolution of gaming,
both in personal life, my niecesand nephews' lives.
(01:47):
Should have paid more attentionto them much earlier when they
were asking me for Robux forChristmas gifts instead of
physical toys.
Yeah, that's good.
That is interesting.
Yeah.
And then somewhere in thatjourney, while I was at
Paramount, our Nickelodeon teamuh eventually launched the
Nickverse on Roblox, and thatwas really inspiring to me.
It it took me back to momentswhen I was a kid.
Yeah.
(02:07):
Uh where I had not seensomething uh like that in the
world of advertising, wherepeople were spending seven to 21
minutes in in-game experiences,essentially immersive ads,
because our Nickelodeon team hadrealized that you weren't gonna
find the next generation of fansfor SpongeBob or Teenage Mut
Ninja Turtles on cabletelevision anymore.
Right.
We had gone from court, youknow, court cutters to court
(02:30):
nevers.
Yeah, and this is where theywere spending both time and
money.
So it inspired HashCoup toreally say we can be a partner
to help educate both brands andagencies on this world of
advertising and what theopportunities are and what the
right thing is for them.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
You know, getting to know you at SciX, one of the
things I really appreciated wasyour curiosity, right?
And so how you have alwaysreally dug into certain topics
when um you know, never neverhad a doubt that whenever a
topic would come up, that Joelwould not either know it or
figure out how to find out, youknow, all about it, and such a
(03:07):
great, great resource andappreciate that.
And and also, you know, I thinkyou had a great experience
obviously at Saatchi and youknow working with great brands,
but then you know, being able towork with some of the IP that
you know, Nickelodeon andParamount, and like these are
all, you know, these this is IPthat I think many of us know and
love, you know.
Um, you know, my kids grow upgrew up watching you know
(03:28):
Nickelodeon, and you know, Igrew up watching Nickelodeon for
that matter.
You know, you can't do that ontelevision.
Yeah.
I remember that show way back inthe day.
Maybe we should have can't dothat on a podcast, but no, uh
probably not do that.
But anyway, you know, it justjust really, you know, and it
must have been a greatexperience for you to get those
those opportunities.
And I think, you know, Iremember working with you even
(03:52):
during that time, and you wereworking on like how do you bring
this IP to retail, right?
What how what are the ways thatthose that IP can be enabled at
retail, which is you know whatmost of us, I'm sure, watching
this podcast, you know, whatwere some of the things that you
really like learned about youknow bringing IP like that to
retail?
And I'm sure there are a lot ofdo's and don'ts and what works
(04:13):
and what doesn't work, but uhjust like briefly, like what was
what was that part really likefor you working with brands?
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Yeah, one of the things that was always
interesting, we used to talkabout this concept from TV to
the shelf.
So, how do we create aconsistent experience in what
shoppers see, uh whether it'swhile scrolling on their feeds
on social media to the point ofgetting to the store or even
while they're watchingtelevision?
Uh if we could create consistentmessaging, um, whether it's the
characters that they see, themessaging that they see, um,
(04:42):
that would allow us to stand outand not get lost in the noise.
Because as we know, I remembermy days at Satcha, we used to
always talk about how uh when ashopper goes to the store,
especially a big box retailer,they can often be overwhelmed.
Yeah.
And they often end updeselecting a lot of the store,
including entire departmentssometimes, and they go back to
what they're used to.
So, how do you stand out at theshelf?
(05:04):
This is a thing that you know weended up doing masterfully
because in some ways youprovided an opportunity for uh
shopper moms to be the hero oftheir household by getting to
bring uh a product inside thestore that sometimes had their
kids' favorite characters on it.
Right.
That sometimes had opportunitiesfor skin to play or different
sorts of engagements that shedidn't have to pay anything more
(05:26):
for that, but it created anopportunity for that child to
have a moment of surprise anddelay.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Yeah, I think entertainment and partnerships
with entertainment, you know,have a huge opportunity.
And then, you know, for you totransition that into gaming,
right?
And so, you know, timeeveryone's time is so
fractionalized, like where theyspend their time, where they
spend their attention, right?
And so if you can find, youknow, if you can find a channel
uh where people are spending alot of time, obviously there's
(05:52):
an opportunity for commerce andadvertising, and we're gonna dig
into that in more detail in in alittle bit, but you know, it it
seems like such a fun transitionto go with from IP to getting
into the this gaming space andyou know uh establishing or
building HashCoup.
Um, you know, what are some ofthe things that HashCoo does
(06:13):
that you really feel like arereally strong parts of uh
whether it be retail or workingwith brands in that gaming
space?
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Yeah, so at the highest level, HashCo functions
uh as your media innovationpartner really with deep
expertise at the intersection ofgaming and commerce.
And that usually comes to lifethrough in-game integrations, uh
media buys, or even customcontent relevant to the gaming
space.
Yeah.
Uh those are largely the threepillars.
Um, now, what the right mix ofthose is really will depend on
(06:45):
what the brand objective goesfor.
So brand plan, you know, drivingawareness and consideration, or
we drive in ultimately uhtraffic to retail and add to
carts.
Um a lot of our job is providingdeep expertise and education to
our brand partners early on,because as we'll talk about
later on, this is still anemerging space, despite the fact
that it has uh a ton ofattention and time spent in it.
(07:08):
Um and then beyond that, it'seven curating what the right
opportunities are for thembecause it's a highly fragmented
ecosystem.
Um, and what we have found andopportunity that we see is that
when you go to any given, youknow, big player that are
fantastic at what they do, ifyou as a brain go to them and
give them an RFP, their answeris going to be our inventory.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
And that's not necessarily the right answer
every time.
So part of our job is to findwhat are what's the right mix uh
to give you really thisomniprogram that's more
holistic, that does theobjective that you actually need
it to do.
Uh that's we pride ourselves onthat and and always even finding
ways to develop technologyaround that to do that better.
For example, measuring programsin um multi-channels,
(07:50):
multi-publishers in a singleview.
Okay, and having those speak onelanguage.
We think that's important aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Yeah.
So all right, I appreciate yougiving me that background.
I think that was that was great.
Um, all right, we're gonna getinto now some of the topics,
some of the things thateverybody's been wanting to hear
more about, and we're gonna dothat now.
So all right, we're gonna moveon now with a little bit of our
our topical banter.
We're gonna we have a few quickhits we're gonna start with.
(08:16):
So, first thing we want to talkabout, we want to I do anyway.
I don't know if Joel wants to, Iwant to congratulate Chunk the
Bear.
All right, so Chunk the Bear.
So what I love about Chunk theBear is a couple of things.
One is this bear actually justwon a competition to see who
could gain the most weight forhibernation.
(08:39):
Um, and this is a promotion, Iguess I never heard of this
competition before, but this isa competition that they do in
Alaska's Katamai uh NationalPark and Preserve.
And so Chunk actually won bybeing an estimated 1200 pounds,
which is kind of what I feellike I gain over the holiday
break, to be honest with you.
(09:00):
But Chunk won has a broken jawand now gained the other bears.
Jeez.
And the other thing is he camein second three times before you
and now he finally won.
So it feels like those of youthat might know this, like the
Susan Lucci of the this bearcompetition, which Susan Lucci,
she actually came in second on alot of uh Emmys, I think it was
(09:23):
Daytime Emmys uh in the soapopera category.
Anyway, regardless.
So, like, congrats to Chunk theBear.
Um, one of the things, whatwould be like one question you
would think about when you werethinking about this kind of
competition?
I'm I'm worried about Chunk theBear.
I don't know if he broke his jobduring the competition or prior
to the competition.
(09:44):
That's funny.
I wonder how many salmon youwould actually have to eat in
order to weigh 1200 pounds.
Yeah, it's uh probablythousands.
It's fascinating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um so but one of the things Iwas thinking about with Chunk
the Bear is like, all right, whoweighed the bear?
I also wonder how close secondplace was.
Like, is Chunk the Bear beatinghim by large margin?
(10:06):
Or yeah, it's it was probablyclose.
It was probably close.
But what was funny because I'mlike, all right, how do you get
a bear on a scale?
They actually used uh used LiDARlaser technology in order to
basically estimate the weight ofthe bear.
So they track these bears andthey weigh them.
So uh about 1,200 pounds is whatthe estimated weight was.
(10:28):
I didn't know you could useLIDAR to get to get it to
weight, and I'm glad nobody wasinjured or or killed trying to
weigh the brown bears in Alaska.
All right, it's amazing.
Yeah, all right.
So next story, next story we'regonna go to is um Nike and
Costco collab.
They are collabing on a pair ofNike Dunks sneakers uh called
(10:51):
Kirkland Dunks.
So, those of you that don'tknow, Kirkland is Costco's store
brand.
Um they these sneakers have likea fuzzy uh or a fleece-like uh
covering.
Um, they've got the Kirklandlogo on the heel tab, and I
think the probably the most funfeature, and this is one of the
things I liked about like aboutNike Dunks, is they've got the
(11:13):
details.
Yep.
And the details really domatter, but um they have a
dollar fifty hot dog graphic onthe insole.
So if you take the insole outand you flip it around, there's
a little air pack where it'ssupposed to be cushioning for
your heel.
It's got the$1.50, you know, uhhot dog, which that's what
(11:33):
Costco is well known for.
So I love love the detail onthis.
Um so you know, Joel, you know,you and I are both into sneakers
and we both love a good collab.
You know, what what's yourwhat's your take on this collab?
SPEAKER_01 (11:45):
I loved it.
Uh first of all, my wifeactually texted this to me.
Oh, yeah.
So uh it got her attention.
And we're not even Costcoshoppers.
So this got me to think aboutCostco, right?
Which was interesting.
And uh, but it also feels kindof like an inside joke or
something playful.
Yeah.
Like if you are somebody that'sshopping at Costco and a fan of
Kirkland's, this feels like theperfect fun, collectible,
(12:08):
playful shoe for you to get.
Yeah.
Um, and I think there'ssomething interesting about
that.
I mean, think about all the PRthat it's gotten.
Yeah.
It's gotten a lot more attentionthan uh maybe others would have
expected.
So it's been fun to see.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
Yeah.
I wonder what would be uh likeif Sam's Club had a collab with
what would be some of the thingsthat you would I would I would
feel like there would be someblue, right?
Blue color.
And I think it's alwaysinteresting, you know, a lot of
times there's collabs withsneaker boutiques and certain
brands, you know, and to to dothat with a store or retailer,
(12:39):
to do one with like a map, youknow, obviously club masks like
Costco is is obviously aninteresting, interesting take.
So um today I actually have on acollab myself, I'm wearing uh a
pair of sockanies that are acollab with Dunkin' Donuts.
Um so there's a lot of greatdetail in these, and you know,
that it brings it brings out alot of the key pieces of of
(13:00):
Dunkin' Donuts.
Um and you know, you know, I'moriginally from Boston, and so
that you know Dunkin' Donutsmeans a lot to me.
And uh those of you that uh areat SatyX, you probably know you
know that I've worn these onmany occasions on many a stage
at SatyX in the past.
And so, you know, these actuallyhave a good meaning to me, but I
do I just do love the way theybrought the collaboration uh
(13:22):
together.
So and you got some it lookslike some some super cool kicks
on too.
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
Yeah, this is a collaboration Nike did with
Artifact actually inspired bygaming gamer culture.
Yeah, and it's this idea of uhwhen you go to Fortnite now,
actually you can buy sneakers uhto you know deck out your
character.
So they were very early in kindof identifying that as a part of
uh what was happening in theworld, and this is a real life
representation of it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Yeah, very cool, very, very cool.
Um all right, so I couldprobably talk about sneakers for
the whole hour, but that's notwhy you all have tuned in.
So let's move on to anotherquick hit.
So OpenAI just this week uhannounced their chat GPT
checkout.
So now you can be in your chatinterface on ChatGPT and you can
(14:08):
buy products directly.
Uh right now they're startingoff with with Etsy.
Um future will be Shopify, and Ithink once the Shopify thing
hits, it will really be a hugeopportunity uh because so many
of D2C products are sold throughthrough Shopify stores.
Um but it's just really coolbecause it's just like it's an
(14:29):
instant checkout.
If you if you're looking for aproduct and then you see the buy
button, you can just buy and dothe entire process uh there.
And so, you know, this is reallykind of a you know, the word
conversational shopping um isyou know maybe the term that I
think is starting to percolatearound this this type of
shopping.
And so, you know, you know, whatare your thoughts about
(14:51):
conversational shopping?
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
It's interesting because when I read this topic,
uh a couple thoughts came tomind.
One is it is the element ofconversational shopping, but
also they emphasize uh theagenda commerce protocol.
Yeah.
So uh you wrote a great articleabout this recently as well.
Uh one of the things that I Ithink about my own purchasing
journey, and and certainly itdepends on the category, but
(15:14):
when it's a let's say highdollar value item, I often go to
YouTube to search for in-depthinformation.
There's I usually get influencedby YouTube.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, but in this case, I waslike, oh, this could maybe
shorten my research process insome cases and also provide
really thoughtfulrecommendations.
Now, there is also a question ofhow much will I trust it and
(15:35):
maybe less at the beginning,more over time.
Yeah.
Um, one thing I foundinteresting about their release
is that they highlight thatthese recommendations are not
going to be uh paid for orsponsored.
Um I suspect that will change.
Right.
Uh I imagine just like everyother retail media uh group in
the space, they're gonna havetheir own you know offering
where advertisers will have theopportunity to participate in
(15:55):
the paid way.
Um it's interesting.
I mean, I think at its beststate, it's you talking to a
friend.
It's me talking to my cousin andsaying, Hey, I'm looking for
something.
What do you recommend?
It gives me some choices, and Isay, That's great.
Add to cart.
I think in a bad state, it's uhI want uh, you know, item ABC,
(16:16):
and it gives me something thatwas not at all what I wanted.
Yeah.
Uh so I think it's gonna gothrough an evolution, but the
thing I'm excited about is it'sa good beginning.
And I think these things andthese technologies are evolving
so quickly that the next two tothree years, uh, I think it's
gonna be a part of our dailylives.
SPEAKER_00 (16:31):
Yeah, and I think you know, there are different
ways that people shop fordifferent items, and I think,
you know, in some cases thatthis might be the right way for
you know for certain certaincases.
So I think it's complimentary,yeah.
It's not in replacement of.
Right, for for sure, for sure,right?
I mean, and I think you know, Italked about this at the uh
Embark Retail Innovation Summitwhere like there's we're at Emot
(16:54):
now.
Everywhere is a moment of truth.
You can literally buy anythinganytime, anywhere.
And you know, I think you know,there are so many ways to ways
to do that.
So it'll be really interestingto see how this evolves.
I know this is just the firststep in what is going to
continue to grow and evolve.
So all right.
So now we're gonna get into ourmain topics uh this this
(17:16):
episode.
And you know, the first onewe're gonna talk about is an
area that you know and love verywell, right?
It's your it's your yourbackground.
Um we're gonna talk about gamingin advertising and commerce,
right?
And as we spoke about earlier,you know, everyone's time and
people's time, you know, isfractionalized, but there's a
huge amount of time being spenton in gaming.
(17:39):
I think you know, for a whilethere was the you know, the the
conversation that everybody's agamer, right?
And so it's just your your mom'sa gamer, your grandma's a gamer,
everybody's a gamer, right?
And so, and that's and that'strue.
I think gaming as a form ofentertainment is you know
definitely part of part of ourculture, and you know, you see
that quite a bit.
(17:59):
Um, there's also been a lot ofconversation about gamification.
How do you take certainexperiences and turn them into a
game?
Um and you know, whenever whenwhen people are spending time
doing a certain thing,marketers, advertisers want to
find out how can I, you know,how can I reach that audience?
How can I reach them at theright time?
(18:20):
And I think there's theconversation about like I I'd
like to play in gaming, but I'mafraid.
I think brands a lot of timesare afraid to get into gaming.
I think they they're afraid ofthe gaming community, to be
quite honest.
Like I think they're afraid,like if I put my ad in a game
and it interferes somehow withtheir game, I'm gonna get so
(18:41):
much backlash on on social andin digital formats that people
are just gonna, you know, I'mgonna be dealing with that for
months, right?
And or people will never neversee my brand ever again, right?
Because they'll shut me down orsomething.
But so like from yourperspective, like I think I've
got to believe that there aresome ways that you want to
approach it.
I think there's been some waysthat some brands have approached
(19:03):
it and have done it well.
Yep.
Um, I would love to hear fromyou, like, where where do you
see the current state of theindustry and kind of like where
how did it kind of get to whereit is today?
And where can brands play thatare very it's where can brands
play that really help uh helpthem reach those gamers?
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Yeah, it's a fascinating topic.
Um, gaming as a category um hasabout as much time spent uh
really across generations, butcertainly uh with Gen Z,
Millennials, and Gen Alpha, uh,a little bit less so with uh Gen
X, but growing.
Um time spent is comparable tosocial.
(19:42):
Um and many advertisers I talkto say, Joel, this has been on
our radar for years as a placepeople are spending time, but we
haven't done it for one of a fewreasons.
One is we don't know where tostart.
There's a whole lot of thingsout there, we're not sure where
to begin.
Two, we're not sure how to dothis in a brand safe way, or in
a way, to your point, that isauthentic both to us and for
(20:03):
them.
Yeah, that's really important.
The other one is also uh, isthis right for us?
Meaning right for our audience,there's a lot of defaulting to
it's kids.
Right.
Or sometimes it's kids or dudein his basement.
Um, and there's a lot more thanthat.
So to your point, uh, gameritself has an interesting
moniker and stigma behind it.
So what we find is whenever youask a room full of people, do
(20:25):
you consider yourself a gamer?
It's like 20 to 30 percent ofthe room, if that.
Right.
Uh but then you ask them, oh, doyou play any mobile games?
Candy Crush, Words with Friends,Royal.
Way more hands go up for sure.
Or even people that are playingStardew Valley or Animal
Crossing, like that's cozygaming.
That's a category of games.
Cozy gaming.
It's a real thing.
Really?
That's interesting.
Uh so part of it isunderstanding what's happening
(20:46):
across the board.
It is a form of uhentertainment, a way that people
sometimes disconnect.
Um, and it's understanding allof that and then giving them the
right place to start.
So we think of it as a thiscrawl, walk, run approach.
Um, and it also depends on,again, who is the audience.
So if you are trying to reach uhGen Alpha coming up, but
(21:08):
certainly Gen Z, a platform likeRoblox and Fortnite makes a lot
of sense.
Uh but then what is the outcome?
What are you trying to do?
Right.
Uh they're fantastic at drivingbrand awareness right now.
Right.
Um, they're developing certaincapabilities that will enable
commerce opportunities, but Iwould say they're that is not
their bread and butter to date.
Um but for example, Roblox nowhas uh immersive commerce
(21:29):
capabilities that they'vestarted to roll out.
It's in its infancy.
Uh, but you're starting to seereally interesting opportunities
where I went and boughtsomething on Walmart Discovered
within the game.
Yeah.
Uh and I got something shippedto my house, but I also got a
digital twin as a gift withpurchase.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
I I really like that.
And I I think you know, Artifactwith Nike did did the same
thing, correct?
Like you bought the shoe and yougot the NFT, right?
I don't think it was for everyevery pair sold, but that was
one of the it was really thereverse.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
You got the digital item and then they would ship
you the other one.
So they took it as pre-orders,which was a good way to limit
how many they had to produce.
Sure.
And it also created limitedquantities of these.
So then there isn't an infinitenumber or an undefined number of
these.
There's we could look at thesoul inside and tell you exactly
how many of these were made.
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that and that addresses awhole nother issue, not
necessarily where we wereheaded, but I just it just came
to me that whole idea of thedigital item and the physical
item being, you know, beingpurchased at the same at the
same time.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
And the digital item itself is fascinating.
Like I think people are stilltrying to wrap their head around
this, but to give you somecontext, uh Parsons did a
Parsons School of Design did astudy with Roblox where uh out
of the Gen Z participants in thestudy, uh 56% of them actually
stated that their virtual closetwas worth as much, if not more,
to them than their real lifecloset.
Yeah.
And at first it surfaced level,you're like, that's insane.
(22:50):
But then you think about it,you're like, well, actually,
more people are probably seeingtheir virtual items on their
avatar than might actually seethem in real life in some cases.
Uh so it's uh an element ofbragging rights, especially when
it's a limited item, when theyhad to have been there to have
gotten that.
Um so we see a lot ofopportunities, frankly, across
generations.
One thing people don't thinkabout actually is baby boomers
(23:13):
is one of the fastest growingsegments in mobile gaming
specifically.
Yeah.
Um, that's it's not somethingyou think about, but they have
more leisure time, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
And how like one of the things that to try to bring
it back to bring it to retailfor a minute, like, you know,
there's always this how do I howdo I activate an online person
to an offline experience, right?
And so, you know, from from youryou know, from your experience,
what have you seen?
Like, what are some some goodways, like if a brand wants to
(23:43):
engage through gaming in orderto drive an in-store um sale,
let's say, or or engagement, youknow, what are some what are
some things to to help that,help facilitate that?
Because it does seem like therecould be a disconnect when you
know if you're immersed in agame and then now you're trying
to transition your mindset tosomebody that's a shopper in a
store.
Like, what are some thoughtsaround that?
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
Yeah, there's uh a bunch of different things that
uh we think are happening andand are being done really well.
So let's start with e-com andthen maybe move to the store.
So from a dot-com perspective,especially, um, there's you can
leverage uh a lot of mobilegaming um opportunities like
rewarded video or playable adsuh that actually give the player
(24:27):
value in the form of more gems,coins, or gold to keep playing
the game and um and theyactually do a fantastic job of
driving click-through to aretail destination, and playable
ads specifically are soimmersive uh that we're seeing
them drive significant commerceloads.
So people actually adding theproduct to their cart uh because
they're spending more time withthat experience.
(24:48):
And right, I really introducethat to people as it's almost
gaming's version of uh listen tothis ad and have 30 minutes of
free listening on Spotify.
Right.
Um, and you're starting to seethese rewarded opportunities
happen both in mobile gaming butalso on Roblox.
Right.
Um, you're starting to seethings at retail itself that
people are adding a QR code ontheir pack to say scan to play
(25:11):
that drives directly to uhin-game integration or custom
experience on Roblox, where uhplayers will collect fruits,
coins, whatever, and exchange itfor in-game wearable items.
Again, to Shopper Mom, that isnow a packaging that is worth
the same as a packaging rightbeside it.
This one has a scan to playmechanism and it now gives you
know kids in the householdsomething fun to do.
(25:33):
Uh, they're seeing highervelocity of sales for those
items than those that don't havean experience like that.
Um, you also have formallicensing partnerships, of
course, whether it's puttingNintendo on pack or other IP
that's known.
Um, but I think part of thething that's important is not
just the channel or the tactic,it's what is the audience
targeting?
How do we reach the exact rightaudience?
(25:53):
How do we do geo-targetingaround the stores that you're
trying to drive traffic to?
How do we leverage whether it'sbrand lift or sales of studies
to actually show you what'shappened, verified by a third
party?
Um those things are important.
SPEAKER_00 (26:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is interesting.
You talked about you know havingan on-pack, um, which that feels
like that's probably the mosttangible way to get people to
engage, you know, physical todigital, because even if you
have signage and so forth instore, yes, it can, I think it
can reflect what's on pack, butthat's what you take home with
you, right?
And so then, you know, you'remaybe your your kid isn't there
(26:28):
with you, or you know, the gamerisn't there, they can then
engage once they once they gethome.
SPEAKER_01 (26:33):
Um, even participating in events and
experiences, I would say.
So when you can bring an eventand experience, promote it
online or in the store wherethey get to be a part of a
tournament, for example, yeah,where some of their favorite
streamers or gamers are going tobe a part of, and they get to
participate in that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
Uh, and it's brought to you through a brand you know
and love at a retailer.
Yep.
Uh creating moments andexperiences, we think, is a
really important uh opportunityand place that gaming can play
in ways that other uhtraditional display or video
units cannot.
SPEAKER_00 (27:06):
Yep.
So what would be a few tips thatyou would give a brand that is
considering getting into thisspace?
And most likely those brands areactivating through retail,
right?
So they're working with the youknow, the Walmarts of the world,
right?
And so what would be a few tipsor things that they should think
about or consider before gettinginto the space or really getting
(27:27):
into it?
SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think first and foremost is
aligning on who is the audiencethat you're trying to go after,
you know, and really defining uhwhere do they spend time in
gaming, why do they spend timein gaming, like really take your
time to understand that first.
Uh that should also that shouldinform what you do, but also how
you show up in those spaces.
(27:49):
Yeah.
Uh to your point, you don't justwant to take banner ad that
you're doing in traditionalother forms in the gaming space.
You want to be able to speaktheir language, you want to have
contextually relevant messagingthat's really important.
For sure.
Um, and we help you know ourbrand partners uh do that,
navigate that journey.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Yeah, that's cool.
All right.
I know again, that's probablyanother one of those topics we
could probably talk to for talkabout for a long time, but we're
gonna move on to our next topic.
So we're gonna talk aboutAI-driven personalized pricing.
And some I think depending onyour viewpoint, this topic can
you know be a little bitcontroversial, right?
And so um, you know, AI is nowgetting involved in everything,
(28:31):
right?
And so now we have AI-poweredpricing, right?
So since we have AI, we have allthese abilities, this ability to
analyze data and make changes,right?
And so there is already that'sthis has already existed for a
while in in the way of like Uberor airlines, right?
(28:51):
You have surge pricing, so youknow during times of, I mean, it
really capitalizes on supply anddemand, right?
So during you know, heavy, heavyvolume prices go up, during
lower volume, prices go down,right?
So I think to a certain extent,I think a lot of uh a lot of
people are used to or canunderstand that.
Let's say maybe they're used toa you can accept it, right?
(29:14):
With airlines, I think we allhave experienced some way, like
you go and you look at a flight,and then you go go back and you
look at it again, and the thecost is up, you know, versus
what it was before, you know,and so are is there are there
things that are are um impactingthat, you know, through through
AI and other pricing methods.
Now, what if you take this tothe store, right?
(29:36):
And you know, now we've got youknow at shelf we have more
digital, digital tags, you know,digital um pricing, uh pricing
happening at the shelf now whereit feels like there's
opportunity to influence thosenumbers on on the at the shelf
right then and right then andthere, which you know when it
(29:57):
gets down to one item, like canthe should the price go?
Go up, like you know, or whenthere's a volume of them, you
know, does the price go down?
Like I'm not sure how I feelreally about this.
I can see on the retailer side,you know, the opportunity to you
know basically capitalize onsupply and demand.
Um, but I also think that insome ways it could feel
(30:18):
predatory, yeah.
Right?
You're taking advantage of asituation and you know, whether
it's you know milk and eggs andyou're raising the prices and
lowering the prices and you'redoing that real time.
I know Wendy's kind of had athing going on a little a little
while ago where they were doinguh variable pricing, and um that
(30:38):
got a lot of backlash on onvariable pricing there.
So I'd love to hear your take.
Like, you know, what how do youfeel about what variable
pricing, AI-driven pricing, ifyou will, um, how it impacts uh
impacts retail and impactsobviously shoppers and
consumers.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Yeah, I think there's to your point, um
there's a risk of losing trustwith the customer if done
incorrectly.
Um so I think people couldretailers or brands might get
excited about some of the supplyand demand thing, but as a
consumer, I may not accept that.
I mean I want that.
I think in its best form, um itis giving me personalized offers
(31:22):
um and you know whether it'sindividually or even as
segments.
So from a segment perspective,think you're a Sams Club member,
and because you're a Sams Clubmember, you get this exclusive
offer or better bundle price orsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
Um it's loyalty, right?
It it's it's it's a it's aloyalty program to a certain
extent.
SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
And that can still drive value to the retailer or
the brand because if they knowthe lifetime customer value,
they know how I'm voting with mydollars, right?
Uh then they can actually bringbetter experiences to me, which
will likely get me to want tospend more with them.
Um, you know, we've talked aboutsneakers earlier today, but it's
like if Nike knows that we'respending X on sneakers or always
trying to get into drops, butnot able to get into some of
(32:05):
those drops, like what anincredible opportunity to offer
us something special.
Either you have the ability toget into this job before anyone
else, um, you you know, thisgroup of people is able to buy
this item, and only this groupof people will have the ability
to buy it.
There's multiple forms of thisthat if you look at it as a way
to provide personalized offersum and call it something better
(32:27):
to the consumer based on thedata, I think it's good.
I think at its worst, it couldbe look like surveillance
pricing.
And then all of a sudden I feellike people are following me
around the web and just tryingto get the maximum value for my
dollar.
SPEAKER_00 (32:39):
I have some breaking news for you, Joel.
It's a real thing.
It's happening.
Yeah, people are following youaround on the web.
100%.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think it'sit's it's really interesting.
I like I'm I just startedthinking about the loyalty
angle, right?
And and you know what it and Icould see that actually going
badly too, right?
So what you do is you raise yourprices to a high level, yeah,
(33:03):
and then you give discounts toyour loyalist loyal shoppers,
right?
And so it's like, is that eventhe right thing to do?
SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
And do you even trust that the price that
they're saying was the originalprice of the street?
SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
Trust is such trust is such you know that's what you
started with, and I thinkeroding trust, which is probably
the most important thing to havehave between a retailer and a
brand with a shopper, is likeyou're that was the first, that
was a great, great uh call.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think you know, I thinkthat is what this is all about
is trust.
(33:35):
I think maybe if you do it in inthe right way, you know, maybe
you tie it into a loyaltyprogram, you know.
I you know again, it seems likewe're talking about Nike a lot
in this in this show, but likefor me, I've been a Nike member
since 2007.
I don't see any better benefitfor being that member and
spending Lord knows how muchmoney with Nike over that period
(33:57):
of time than anyone else.
And that's disappointing to me,right?
Um, but I don't think I pay moreor less when I go to Nike.com
than anybody else that has thesame access.
But maybe I should.
SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
Um if they could tap into who Nike customers are and
offer them certain deals anddiscounts, that could be
interesting.
And I think we're moving in thatdirection, right?
SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
Yeah, so when I was when I was at my former the
agency I was before Sachi, whenI was at the marketing arm, one
of our clients was JCPenney.
And you know, JCPenney basicallyconditioned their shoppers to
wait for a coupon code everyweek.
And we that's what we do.
(34:41):
We were sending text messages totheir to their loyalty customers
um about a coupon code that theycan go and they go shop.
And so then I can't remember thename of the CEO at the time, he
said, We're not gonna do thatanymore, we're gonna stop.
And sales tanked because theywere way like so.
In in a scenario where now wehave these dynamic pricing, and
(35:04):
then you get get people used tothat variability, do you really
like is it do you really have animpact on that customer to
really shop with you only whenthings are in their favor,
right?
And not be that loyalist thatyou know you really want them to
(35:25):
be.
SPEAKER_01 (35:25):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think uh in general, it's partof the reason why under this
topic I think about even beyondpersonal price, personalized
pricing and more personalizedoffers.
Yeah.
Because I think offers can be,it doesn't have to be a lower
price.
It can be, you know, brand brandtelling you about their new
Halloween items or their newChristmas items.
(35:46):
Yeah, uh, maybe I want to knowabout that or have access to
purchase it first.
That only works in somecategories, of course, but um I
think when you think about itbeyond pricing, I think it gets
really interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's where I thinkmaybe the opportunity is isn't
really necessarily the dynamicsaround the actual price at the
shelf, but the what theopportunities are for your
loyalists using AI in order toknow their purchase behavior and
their propensity for otheropportunities.
And you know, in in the space ofdigital, we talk about um, you
know, we talk about discovery alot.
(36:20):
Like here's an opportunity, likeyou know who your loyalists are,
you know, like so why not givethem an offer at a at a special
specialized price?
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
Well, even, I mean, this probably bigger combo as
well, but even what is the rightmessage to reach out to to them
versus somebody else?
Like right message, right place,right time.
Um I think AI is gonna enableall this, not just the pricing,
not just the offers, but likeyour ads might look very
different than mine, and theymight say something different to
you than me based on what we'vepurchased or you know, or
(36:50):
reviews online or something likethat.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
All right, we're gonna pause on that topic now,
and we're gonna move on to ourthird topic today, which you
know does still talk aboutin-store, right?
So we're gonna talk aboutInstacart caper carts, which is
uh, you know, a technology thatI don't know, for some reason I
was enamored with when I was atCES back in January this year.
I had a chance to experience acaper cart.
(37:14):
Um, and I really found some ofthe things that the caper carts
were doing were really, reallyinteresting.
Um, you know, so for those ofyou that don't know, uh uh
Instacart acquired a companycalled Caper AI back in 2021.
Um, and they basically havebuilt a smart cart, if you will,
and and those have um differentsensors, it has a scale, um, has
(37:39):
a lot of um interactivecomponents to that cart in order
to and a little screen to helpfacilitate that shopping
experience in in a store.
Um, which, you know, I thinkbeing a shopper marketing, we've
always we always have thoughtabout okay, what would be the
Cadillac of shopping carts andwhat would that unlock?
And I think you know, to acertain extent, the the caper
(38:01):
cart is is something to to thatuh to that effect.
And you know, there are theseare in retail uh retailers like
Kroger or Wake Fern Shop Rightum as well.
And so they're they're usingthese carts.
And you know, I I think there'sa couple of components to the
caper cart that I find to bereally great, which is you know,
(38:25):
first of all, the technologythat goes into the cart itself
to be able to weigh your foodand weigh, you know, weigh your
produce and all that stuff andadd it directly to your shopping
experience and shopping cart isabsolutely brilliant, right?
Um and so, but on the otherhand, like trying to deploy that
you know a large number of capercarts, I've got to imagine is
(38:46):
pretty pr a pretty expensiveexperience.
So um, you know, I like likeyour point of view on you know,
do you think a cart like thatdoes it really add to the
experience, you know, or iseverybody just good with their
mobile phone and and the thewire shopping cart that they're
already used to?
What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
I think it's fun.
Uh I've never done it myself.
Uh the idea of it soundsinteresting, and there's
definitely moments that I couldsee that have actually being
helpful.
Like there's times that I wantto know where a certain item is
in the store and have to go findsomebody in the store to tell
me.
And sometimes they're right andsometimes they're not.
So uh the fact that it would beaware of what aisle I'm in, and
(39:30):
maybe I can even somehow tell itwhat my shopping list is, like
things like that I get excitedabout.
Uh, I think they're interesting.
I think a lot of value will goto the retailer, of course.
Um, you know, I think earlytests that they're showing are
people are spending more, uh,there's more, there's more
loyalty.
Uh like, and I mean, I went toyou know, Fresh Market yesterday
(39:54):
and I saw they had an offer oflike buy two chocolate bars and
you get a better deal than one.
That's not even with a capercard.
I bought two chocolate bars.
Yeah, well, like what if I wasin any given aisle and because
it knows what I'm putting in thecar, it gives me relevant offers
that I may not have been awareof.
I I could set see that beingvalue to the shopper, but also
driving higher carded value.
So it's gonna be incrediblyexpensive to do.
(40:15):
I don't know the economicsbehind it, but sure maybe
through monetizing the adinventory, what getting
increased, yeah, gettingincreased uh basket sizes, and
maybe even more like people on aloyalty program.
Um, maybe that actually equatesto maybe it's a wash and that's
enough for it to be a win.
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
Right.
Yeah, I just wonder, you know,would you shop at a store
specifically because it had acart, a smart, we'll call it a
smart cart, yeah, smart cart,um, like a caper cart.
Would you shop there overshopping somewhere like you
know, a mass personally Iwouldn't.
Uh I wouldn't make a decision togo to a place because of that
versus not.
Yeah, it's so frustrating to mewhen I go to a different Home
(40:58):
Depot or different lows that I'mused to going to.
Yeah.
So having something to help withthe wayfinding.
And I know you look it up on theon your phone, you can spread it
through the app.
You can it'll tell you whataisle things are.
SPEAKER_01 (41:08):
There's something interesting about it, like it's
just here and it's on thescreen.
I'm adding products to the cart.
So I think it's helpful, but Ithink it would help my
experience.
I don't know if I would chooseto go to the retailer for it.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:18):
Especially if I eventually realize every time I
go I spend more than I want to.
Well, if we can tie thatprevious topic into this topic,
like you know, if you're on youhave that cart, right, and it
knows where you are in store, itcould provide additional
incentives.
I mean, or it could detect yournext to it and change the price
on at the shelf right beforeyou're about to put it in your
cart.
Who knows?
But I think it's like anin-store cookie.
SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
Yeah.
Like it's following you around,it knows what you're doing.
Uh, if nothing else, it's areally uh expensive but probably
compelling data researchproject.
SPEAKER_00 (41:49):
Yeah.
My my feeling about where theopportunity would be for Caper
Cart and Instacart specificallywould be to you know build all
of that technology into yourapp, into your phone app, right?
Of course, the sensor piece isgonna be you know, the scales
and stuff.
That's not really gonna bepossible unless I guess maybe if
you have LIDAR, maybe you canright from the bears, right?
(42:12):
Maybe you can use LIDAR tofigure out how much something
weighs.
But for that, but bring it intoyour device, right?
And then really bring thatbecause I think it's like more
of an immersive shoppingexperience when you have that
cape, when you have the capercart, in order to you know tie
that into your shopping journeywithin the within the store,
your list and your gamificationand all that.
(42:33):
Like, why can't you just bringthat into you know your your
mobile device and bring thatexperience and let that be the
way to to do the same thing, andthen you can scale that much,
much faster.
SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
It's funny because even as you say it, I was like,
you know, a cart that just hasspace for your phone to go in
there and you're you upload theapp and then your phone is oh
yeah, it's good, yeah,significantly reduced cost, and
you're opting in to do it atthat point.
You're maybe not gonna get thewave, but you get 80% of the
benefit.
SPEAKER_00 (43:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we'll see how you knowcaper carts and other smart
carts get adopted and whatimpact they have on shopping.
So uh, all right.
Well, we're gonna move on now toour vibe check.
All right, now it's time forvibe check, which is our game
time.
And so we're gonna play our gamebold vibe.
(43:21):
So, Joel, um, I'm going to throwout a thought, a little sentence
here.
Um, might be a trend, might besomething totally random, might
be something that we talkedabout.
And you just have to give meyour first gut reaction, okay?
Got it.
Is it no problem, right?
So don't overthink it.
Okay, are you ready?
Yep.
All right.
Uh Roblox will replace Instagramas Gen Z's brand discovery
(43:46):
platform.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
Interesting.
Uh, in some ways, I think it hasstarted to.
Um, I believe Roblox andFortnite are where certainly Gen
Alpha and Gen Z go to.
Um, I believe it's gonna be animportant part.
I can't say it's gonna replaceit.
Okay, Instagram will continue tobe important, as will TikTok.
SPEAKER_00 (44:04):
All right.
In-game advertising is moreeffective than connected TV.
SPEAKER_01 (44:10):
At driving uh certainly traffic to retail,
absolutely.
Um but I've seen CTV do a goodjob at actually driving sales
lift when done at scale.
SPEAKER_00 (44:21):
Okay.
All right.
AI pricing will make sales feelless fair, not more
personalized.
SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
I worry that at the beginning, yes, it'll absolutely
feel you'll see more backlashbefore you see a lot of
excitement.
SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
Shoppers will trust retailers less because of
AI-driven pricing.
I think that's a risk as well.
Yeah, you started the wholething with that, didn't you?
Smart carts will become the mostvaluable in-store retail media
channel, in-store retail mediachannel.
SPEAKER_01 (44:55):
I struggle to accept that one.
I think in some ways it goesback to old school, you know,
going back to our Sachi days,but navigation, education, and
inspiration, just navigating thestore.
SPEAKER_00 (45:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:05):
I think the store format itself, not the cart,
will be the thing that'simportant.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (45:10):
The Nike and Costco collab is the sneaker collab of
the year.
What do you thought?
SPEAKER_01 (45:18):
Uh I don't know.
It's fun, it's playful, but I'mI'm sure there will be others
and probably have been othersthat stand out more than that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:24):
Okay.
And last one, Costco's hot dogcombo is the most iconic value
meal in America.
They've really stuck to it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:35):
Um it might be, it isn't for me personally, just
because I've never lived in aplace where Costco is huge.
Right.
Uh, so for me, I don't know.
Like, I gotta go to mychildhood, like the happy meal
from McDonald's.
Like, it just isn't.
If it's really the most valuemeal, but it it was a moment of
joy as a kid.
SPEAKER_00 (45:53):
Yeah, I I here's here's what I'll say.
I like everybody knows about thehot dog meal at Costco.
Right.
Everybody, like everybody knows.
And they've stuck to thatpricing.
Even if you don't shop atCostco, like I've I mean, I
think I may have been in Costcotwice in my life, yeah.
Right.
So, you know, I don't um, buteverybody knows about it.
So in a way, I think it has anit is iconic in a way.
(46:16):
Um, but I I do hear you likenostalgia does play a part, and
you know, for for for me, likeyeah, value meals, you know, uh
or uh happy meals at McDonald'sare definitely big, big for me.
So great.
Well, thanks for playing thatplaying that game.
Um, the great answers for sure.
All right, party people.
It is time to wrap this one up.
(46:36):
I want to thank my guest, JoelPonce, for chopping it up with
me on on this show.
So thanks for being here.
Happy to be here be here, Joel.
Um, do you have uh any any lastwords, anything you'd like to
promote?
SPEAKER_01 (46:49):
I appreciate the opportunity first and foremost.
And uh if anybody wants to diveinto the world of gaming
advertising, uh learn more aboutwhat's happening and what you
can do to leverage gaming as achannel for growth, reach out to
me.
You can find me on LinkedIn,just type in Joel Ponts and
reach out to me at Joel atHashCoo.com.
SPEAKER_00 (47:08):
All right.
Awesome.
And the big question will youcome back?
Oh, 100%.
Okay.
Well, if you're not gonna wearsneakers, I would just edit that
part out if you said no, so nota big deal.
I also have a shout out.
So uh episode one, I had TomBryden on the show, and I want
to do a quick shout out to Tom.
He recently received his U.S.
citizenship.
(47:28):
So I want to congratulate Tomand welcome to America, my
friend.
So amazing.
Yeah.
Um, in a future podcast, I'mgonna do a mailbag show.
So ask BV almost anything.
So if you have any questions,almost anything.
I love it.
If you have any questions, goahead and send them my way at
retailmediavibes at gmail.com.
I hope you enjoyed the podcast.
(47:49):
Please like it, share it,comment, etc.
It helps get the word out on thepodcast.
So please do that.
And thank you so much forlistening.
And I promise I will do betternext time.
Be the out.
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