June 28, 2025 • 20 mins
We've got another special guest episode here; things start off unserious and end somewhere heavy. Tattoo sessions, text threads, British tea vs testosterone—nothing is off limits as we welcome Eva (@birdlets, they/them) to the pod. Together we unpack the covert (and not so covert) harassment that’s become routine in the service industry, the collective instincts women and femmes develop to survive it, and why cis men still miss the cues. We talk about gatekeeping, being “on code,” and what real solidarity could look like if people actually showed up.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Let's stress out like I mentioned this to you earlier.
Why are you nervous? Why are you?
Nervous. Why are you nervous?
Because of who I. Am as a.
Person OK, that was because of him.
He has an effect on people. I do.
Yeah, I think. You started talking to a tattoo
(00:34):
artist in your first session, and then you hung out later.
Yeah. What's that happening?
I've never been invited to hang out with a tattoo artist except
for one, but we met prior to knowing that she was a tattoo
artist and so she gave me a tattoo after the fact and then
we're still friends. So that's.
No, I'm just really annoying, iswhat it is.
And I was like blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
(00:56):
And like he had just started teaand like, we're both figuring
out tea. Yeah, so.
Like British tea? Testosterone.
Oh, just like British. I literally was thinking tea.
Yeah, I was like, oh, this tattoo place.
Like he had tea. Like, oh, that's cool.
Because people drink tea. Yeah.
That's literally how I understand it.
My second guess. Shot actually right so.
(01:18):
Yeah, well, my second guess was like tea as in gossip.
Oh, that. 'D be funny too.
My first guess was actual tea that he was drinking.
So it's like, Oh yeah, Sam, he started tea for you.
And then like, you're like, that's an invitation, you know,
like I have some tea, like. And then there's the modern day
is usually like, what's the tea?Yeah.
So that neither of those have been in my experience.
(01:39):
You're wrong both times. Yeah.
It's a gay thing. So what do you so?
You said you were coming in withideas.
Actually, actually I texted themto him and I said you should you
forward that to the person we'regoing to have on today.
You told me that like two hours ago.
His act words were no. And I'm like, Are you sure?
Like when I spoke to them, they said they would like test
(02:01):
something in their mind in advance.
And then he said yeah, but. Oh, so this is on you then?
It's. And then I said, all right,
like, I just wanted for the record, I did my part.
I brought up something for you to pass on.
Yeah. And then you chose do not pass
it on. And you also said it'll be all
right. And then I said to you, all
right, I'm gonna blame you. And he said, OK.
OK, but no matter how this went down, I'm coming in with no idea
(02:22):
what we're talking about. Yeah.
That's fine. 6:00 AM he said I was supposed to go ahead.
He texted me saying I was supposed to think of an intro
for the episode, but I couldn't come up with anything that we
haven't spoken with them about already.
Let's just start with a rant about ice and then to which I
responded damn at six O 1 in the.
(02:45):
Morning, Lord. And then?
And then? Then as I'm working my my job
426, you text me, you text me. Should I read it?
Yeah. OK, I'm going to ask when they
felt they might. Oh, no.
Right. Before that I set it up.
Eva hasn't been on this podcast,right?
Right. Are they comfortable talking
(03:08):
about themselves? Yes.
All right. I got it.
Interesting. Wait, no, there's something
right before that. There is nothing before that
wait. What do you want me to talk
about when I? Oh, at 4:24 you said.
Dude, I figured it out. There you.
Go. I said what?
And I'll start from there with that intonation all over.
Again, right. I want to hear all of these.
Can you just read through your guys's text messages so I can
(03:28):
understand the vibe? So after I said damn at 6:01 in
the morning, you text me again at 2:47 PM saying just to be
sure you close, right? And then I responded at 286
where you at man? It's almost 3.
And then you said you never gaveme a time, a location, a server.
So I'm just kidding, bro. I today lots of projects in the
works, got to meet new people, hang out with friends more,
(03:48):
etcetera. I'm very fortunate.
And then I said all caps wrong person and then you said all
caps lol. And then he said dude, I figured
it out and I said what? And he said Eva hasn't been on
the so I was told podcast right?I said right?
And he said are they comfortabletalking about themselves?
And I said yes. And he said all right I got it.
And then I said, interesting. It's usually not this difficult
(04:09):
to start. I think he's just a little, he's
a little a little nervous. Why he's a little nervous?
This is our first guest that's not Luca.
It's just me. Where is Luca dude?
You gotta. Find he says hi, by the way, I
was talking to him today. Yeah.
Really. Yeah, I keep up with everybody.
Yeah, I told him about that shirt thing.
(04:29):
It was so weird. What shirt thing?
You saw the shirt hanging up. Oh yeah, somebody gave you a
shirt at work. Yeah, it was.
He came in early to see me. OK.
Oh, he gave you that. That's happened twice, twice now
and different customers. It wasn't him the first time.
Isn't that weird? I must look like I don't have
enough clothes. So the in their any of us
experience a lot of men have come and gifted.
(04:49):
They give me things but never money.
Just like dumb shit like. What kind of dumb shit?
Let's see, they bring me pastries.
They bring me weird coins. It's, it's kind of like, you
know, I don't know if you've ever nannied or babysat or
something, but sometimes when I take the kids to the park, yeah,
they, I let them run around the playground and they bring back
like little trinkets to me, likestuff that they dig up in the
(05:11):
dirt, right? Kind of like that.
But they're grown ass fucking men over 40 so.
Do they ever give you like, weird things?
Yeah, I mean, I had a guy, the last guy who gave me a shirt.
He actually brought me. I have a photo of it somewhere
that took of like the biggest stack of T-shirts.
Like it was like huge. It was so heavy.
He handed it to me and he told me to wear them with nothing on.
(05:33):
What? I'm not joking.
This was at work. I told what?
Yeah, I told. I told the manager.
Nobody cares but. Yeah, step up, dog.
Some context. I work with Eva, Yeah, we work
at the same place, which we willnot disclose, but Denny's you
are also. Bro Denny's.
Denny's would be more fun, I think.
(05:54):
Yeah, Denny's might be more fun,but I have done collaborative
posts on Instagram before with Eva and their username is Are
you OK with me sharing? Oh yeah, I love attention.
Bird let's on Instagram BRDLETS.You got to put that bull heart
right when you give out the name.
(06:14):
While while you're saying the name so nobody can hear it all
right. Got it.
So amazing artist. Fantastic.
Just so fantastic. How fantastic.
Like really fantastic, like the kind of art that like makes you
depressed in a good way, a good way because it's really good at
like communicating an experiencethat is so heavy that it's it
(06:38):
doesn't seem like you can tell it's real.
Like you can tell it's so, yeah.So Eva and I work together and
one of the many experiences thatthey have is are with are with
men. Yes.
I have so much to say about men,unfortunately.
With men who. So a customer brought you a
stack of shirts and told you notto wear anything below them.
(06:59):
Yeah, he said that I would look really good naked with a giant
T-shirt. Actually.
What that's? Crazy.
He said that the first time and then I was like, that's weird.
Like, The thing is, I feel is that they talk so much about,
like, you should be like, standing up for yourself.
But there's something like in the moment of I feel so violated
and scared. I'm like, I could be killed.
Like if I leave the store right now, I might not come back
inside. So that's when I kind of like,
(07:20):
shut down. And I'm like, OK, OK.
But then he came back with the shirts and he gave them all to
me. And then he started asking me
why, like, I wasn't wearing themto work.
And then I was like, oh, we're not allowed to wear shirts with
patterns at work. Oh.
My gosh. It's like a whole thing.
Do I know this guy? Yeah.
Is he a regular? Yeah.
Is he still coming? Yep.
Oh, that's so disturbing. I didn't know that.
(07:42):
This was the first one I've everheard this.
I do well. Well, I mean, I'm not.
I have a boss over me, so don't ask me what's going on.
And I can't do much without thatboss doing something.
I've mentioned it. I always tell the boss what's
going on, but if they don't wantto deal with it, they don't want
to deal with it because the customer brings in money and if
it's consistent money, it doesn't matter what I say.
OK. I kind of have an idea of who it
is, but this is technically yourfirst appearance.
(08:04):
Yeah, on this podcast and the way that this podcast on one
end, we have just episodes whereit's just me talking and ranting
or whatever for about 15 to 20 minutes, sometimes even less
than that. And then the the majority of it
so far has pretty much been justconversations between myself and
(08:24):
this other person. We just talk about things and
culture and it's more of the free form type of discussion.
Yeah, well, what's been on your mind lately that you want me to
discuss with you or that you would like to hear my input on?
What have we been talking about?What episodes have we been?
Well, the last one I listened toyou were mad about.
Wait, you've heard or stuff? A couple of them we can talk.
(08:46):
About that, what do you take away from?
It you 2 are very interesting people.
Which ones have you heard? I heard the well, obviously I
heard that one about you talkingabout when we bombed Iran and
everyone was like, it's World War Three, it's World War Three
and you went on a fucking rant. Yes, this was last.
Week and I heard most of the episode, but it was interesting.
(09:09):
And then some of the one about religion, a little bit about
that one. And then I also heard like the
one where you were talking aboutthings that you would have said
to yourself when you were younger.
That was interesting, but I haven't listened to all of them
because I have a really short attention span, so I bounce
around a lot. That's all good.
But I got the vibe that you 2 had a very, very comfortable
(09:30):
relationship and just kind of were able to follow like the
flow of wherever the conversation was going.
So I'm happy to talk about how angry I am.
It meant at all times I'll be polite.
I mean, men and in general, I'vebeen thinking about a lot
recently because I think it's interesting how, like, I've
noticed since Trump became president, and this happened in
(09:51):
2016 as well, the violence against like, people that are
perceived to be women has gottenso much worse.
And I know all of it. It's because they feel empowered
to do so. But I remember, like in 2016,
like, that was when men started like, laying hands on me and
like, flirtatious ways. You know, I also was in Chicago.
So, like, it's different out there, but I've noticed since
(10:12):
he's come back into power, two men are so much more open about
their views on what women shouldbe doing.
You remember, I can't say names,but you know the guy who gets a
coffee with an extra shot you can.
Always say names and I just bleep them it's.
Fucking OK. Do you know what he said to me
today? Oh, what did he?
Say that's. Crazy.
OK. I mean, like, extremely
inappropriate behavior, you know, even up until, like,
(10:33):
Trump, like, I feel like he's a good example, but not
necessarily in the way that maybe I'm trying to point out.
But just in general, he's alwaysbeen kind of creepy towards me.
Always says like, kind of out ofpocket shit about, like, me
running away with him, you know,dumb stuff like that.
But today he was like, you're almost 18, right?
And I said I said yeah, because I'm a fucking liar.
And he said, let me know when you're legal.
(10:54):
I get the sense he's like an older guy.
Yeah, he's middle-aged, OK, you know, but I've noticed a lot of
that kind of rhetoric coming outmore, you know, even if I'm
talking with like other Co workers, like there are men that
have been waiting for her to turn 18 and ask her every single
time they come in when she's turning 18.
OK? Like and that stuff that didn't
happen up until then now like they just start running their
(11:15):
mouths and it it's, it's odd forme to see it happen a second
time. I've actually never once
witnessed any of these interactions.
What to be honest with you, likeI've, I've, I hear out a lot
like it's, I've heard a lot fromEva about like the interactions
with men, but I've never been there to witness it.
Why do you think that might be? Well.
For one, we don't really work together that often.
And even when we do work together, I literally like, not
(11:37):
an earshot. Like the other day, something
had happened. And yeah, yeah, like an older,
an older man, like in his 60s made comments and was like, are
you flirting with me and stuff like that.
I was in the vicinity, but I wasn't listening like, because I
know this customer. He's a regular and I actually
know a lot about his life because he doesn't know who I
am, but I know who he is. And I will say he's actually a
somewhat prominent religious leader in like in a denomination
(12:01):
here in California. And he didn't, it wasn't not
like he said anything like was like that he should go to jail
for, but he just was saying old man creepy things.
I think you what you all rolled up your sleeve or something.
I did. I rolled up my sleeve and he
said, are you flirting with me? Are you gonna show me what a
strong girl you are? First off, I'm not a girl.
Just like really quick to get that out of the way.
(12:23):
Not a girl at all. But that's not a conversation
you want to have with the religious leader.
So just old men being old men, saying things like that.
But I definitely notice it change as we move more towards
like this kind of governmental style.
And I think as have you ever read those articles and stuff
about like the new Trump women? Yeah.
(12:44):
Trad. Yeah.
No no no, not trad wise but likethe way women have to look in
order to be in Trump circle. Oh yeah, the MAGA look.
Yeah, yeah, The MAGA look, I feel like as that kind of more
traditionally feminine idea comes back into the forefront,
men are a little more comfortable saying things that
are traditional, I suppose. Yeah.
And and it's not that it was even like squashed during
(13:07):
Biden's, you know, era because like, it never really is.
But the openness with which theyrun their mouths, tell you their
opinions, take advantage of the power dynamics that they know
are there in a service industry space is very weird.
And we all talk about it like all the femme people at work are
like, that was gross. That was weird.
Sometimes you laugh at it and sometimes you just burn out.
(13:28):
I will say I'm completely unaware with this except I do
witness it sometimes, just not to the same degree obviously
because I'm not a woman. It's infantilizing.
That weird old guy behavior. Yeah, it's but but but it's I
mean, I'm not seeing it in old men.
I'm just seeing it in older men.You know what I'm saying?
Like these older men should already be at like bro, you're a
Gen. X.
(13:48):
Like you should at least I thinkyou watch TV enough to know that
like. We don't be talking anymore.
You know what I mean? But it's very much a
condescending way, or it's very much a way of like, you know,
oh, you're a sweet thing, or you're this little precious
thing, or you're Boomer. Two point O.
Boomer 2 point. O We've discussed this on here
actually. Maybe, yeah.
Gen. X being boomer 2 point O Yeah
(14:09):
that's why. They're not as old as the actual
boomers, but they do literally all the same.
They do as you're. Saying right now.
Yeah, yeah. Well, go on.
They didn't learn anything. Yeah.
I wonder if that's because they're not online.
I mean, they are online. Yeah, they're online, but
they're not. Then they're online just like in
Facebook and Instagram. Yeah, they're not online other
than that. You know what I mean?
(14:30):
And they're certainly not in circles online where they're
being challenged by far. It's just like a massive echo
chamber. So whereas millennials and and
younger are definitely online inall sorts of spaces, but All in
all sorts of spaces and much longer.
So what were the questions that you were going to ask?
First question was a follow up to you in the your workspace.
(14:51):
So when you hear him say he's not aware of these things or he
doesn't usually hear them, what goes through your mind?
Why do you think that is? Why do you think he hasn't heard
these things? Well, I think partially because
I know how you are at work, which is very much like kind of
compartmentalizing what's going on and just kind of like one
thing at a time, you know, it's like, if it's not, you know,
it's not super crucial or whatever.
Like it's not really worth the energy and stuff.
(15:12):
Yeah. And I do know that, but it took
me a long time to understand it.And I don't think like,
honestly, it pisses me off, but like, what am I, you know, it
pisses me off when anybody doesn't like step up.
I think part of what bothers me,like I feel as though, and some
of this is self-inflicted, but it's also just based on my like
life experience is that then people stick together.
(15:34):
You know, we have people like even in like the small context
of this workspace, like we have customers that we see coming and
we swap each other out, you know, to support each other.
And it is like not even a thought.
And I think that kind of camaraderie is like, it's
something that has always meant a lot to me.
And it's why I have very rarely felt comfortable around men,
(15:57):
even ones who are like allies orfeel or are supportive or even
listen, because I have so many experiences where when things
happen, they aren't there or they see that we're talking to
someone for too long, but they don't come back out.
You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of like
removal from the situation mentally, physically.
And I think the lack of presencefrom specifically like Sisman
(16:17):
has always bothered me. Like we have other men that work
there who do like it. It just doesn't seem to be on
their radar in a body language way where I can tell when
another woman is uncomfortable. I can tell when the girls are
uncomfortable. Like we, we just know almost,
you know, if a guy's talking to you for too long, you know, to
back up. Like I can't even fully like
verbalize the way that we don't feel safe for the eye contact we
(16:38):
do. And I think it took me a while
to understand that. Like it wasn't a personal thing.
It just doesn't cross sis men's minds, you know?
Like, I remember a conversation you and I had a really long,
long time ago, probably when I first started.
And there was a guy who was, like talking to me for so long.
And I was like, really uncomfortable.
And I turned around and you wereoff the floor.
(17:00):
And I remember talking to you afterwards and being like, hey,
if someone's talking to me for too long, I'm uncomfortable.
And you're like, yeah, of course.
But like, you know, I had to, like, initiate that
conversation, right? I think just in general, I, it
took me so long just to not takeit personally and to understand
that, like, not everybody is going to understand that
collective experience. Does that make sense?
That makes sense. I don't know.
(17:20):
Does that mean I? Feel recently mean you talked
about like being on code That's beyond code right there.
Yeah, we did. That's an example for those of
you listening, but. It's not a code that we're
familiar with at all. Yeah, that's gonna happen.
Like every groups gonna have their version of code.
Yeah, but it's important to havethat.
So that's a good example. If you're talking about music,
like why certain scenes are likeeffed up, we use Machine Gun
(17:40):
Kelly as an example. I was like, see like me and you
may not like Machine Gun Kelly. A lot of people do in that
scene. And my argument was cuz you guys
are not on code. That's how people like that can
come in and there's really no problem.
They just come in all the time. And so his question to me was
like, So what do you do going forward and blah, blah, blah.
And my thing was like, you gottabe on code.
(18:02):
You gotta decide what this is. After you decide what this is,
that's how you can move forward with what do you do with those
kinds of people. The term gatekeeping gets
misused a lot. People think of gatekeeping as
like, I know of a bit of information and I'm just not
going to tell anybody. It's very like high school.
And I think I said this in the episode, I touched on it, but I
basically said was like, one that's wrong. 2 Gatekeeping
(18:24):
isn't literally shutting people out.
It's you're maintaining the integrity of this thing.
And so someone can, if someone can meet what it is that you
need to be to be in the space and then you can come in so the
walls aren't closed, but you do need to be able to understand
whatever things you have to. Yeah.
And the music say it's like you dude, you're not metal like or
if you wear a shirt it's like OKname by bands like.
(18:45):
It's very looking. You have to fit a certain.
Yeah, and that's the dumbest form of gatekeeping.
Whereas and if that's the mentality you wanna have, it
doesn't go anywhere. Quick example would be all kinds
of bars and venues that closed down after 2020 because of the
pandemic. But they'll all tell you they
were struggling before that. The nail and coffin was the
pandemic. They were struggling before that
(19:05):
because they've already in each spaces.
So they were always on the brinkof potentially going out of
business because they had a small following.
And then because of COVID, only some of the people of the few
people that were in those spaceswere able to go.
So that's it. And if you tell someone who has
that very misguided way of thinking about gatekeeping,
their thing is always, I love the space, so I'm going to tell
(19:27):
no one about it. But in reality, like if you tell
no one about your favorite restaurant, it goes out of
business. That's it, That's it.
There's no nothing else. You know, that's where I was
getting at when we needed to talk about this.
So OK, yeah, being an example ofbeing on code.
That's a great way to explain that.
I know you had a second questionthat you were going to ask, but
I think that this is a good place to end this episode.
(19:49):
And then next week we will get into the second question, which
I know is going to be geared more towards politics.
So if you are listening and you want to hear more of Eva in this
episode, then stick around and we'll see you next week.
(20:10):
Till then, see you next time.
Let's stress out like I mentioned this to you earlier.
Why are you nervous? Why are you?
Nervous. Why are you nervous?
Because of who I. Am as a.
Person OK, that was because of him.
He has an effect on people. I do.
Yeah, I think. You started talking to a tattoo
(00:34):
artist in your first session, and then you hung out later.
Yeah. What's that happening?
I've never been invited to hang out with a tattoo artist except
for one, but we met prior to knowing that she was a tattoo
artist and so she gave me a tattoo after the fact and then
we're still friends. So that's.
No, I'm just really annoying, iswhat it is.
And I was like blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
(00:56):
And like he had just started teaand like, we're both figuring
out tea. Yeah, so.
Like British tea? Testosterone.
Oh, just like British. I literally was thinking tea.
Yeah, I was like, oh, this tattoo place.
Like he had tea. Like, oh, that's cool.
Because people drink tea. Yeah.
That's literally how I understand it.
My second guess. Shot actually right so.
(01:18):
Yeah, well, my second guess was like tea as in gossip.
Oh, that. 'D be funny too.
My first guess was actual tea that he was drinking.
So it's like, Oh yeah, Sam, he started tea for you.
And then like, you're like, that's an invitation, you know,
like I have some tea, like. And then there's the modern day
is usually like, what's the tea?Yeah.
So that neither of those have been in my experience.
(01:39):
You're wrong both times. Yeah.
It's a gay thing. So what do you so?
You said you were coming in withideas.
Actually, actually I texted themto him and I said you should you
forward that to the person we'regoing to have on today.
You told me that like two hours ago.
His act words were no. And I'm like, Are you sure?
Like when I spoke to them, they said they would like test
(02:01):
something in their mind in advance.
And then he said yeah, but. Oh, so this is on you then?
It's. And then I said, all right,
like, I just wanted for the record, I did my part.
I brought up something for you to pass on.
Yeah. And then you chose do not pass
it on. And you also said it'll be all
right. And then I said to you, all
right, I'm gonna blame you. And he said, OK.
OK, but no matter how this went down, I'm coming in with no idea
(02:22):
what we're talking about. Yeah.
That's fine. 6:00 AM he said I was supposed to go ahead.
He texted me saying I was supposed to think of an intro
for the episode, but I couldn't come up with anything that we
haven't spoken with them about already.
Let's just start with a rant about ice and then to which I
responded damn at six O 1 in the.
(02:45):
Morning, Lord. And then?
And then? Then as I'm working my my job
426, you text me, you text me. Should I read it?
Yeah. OK, I'm going to ask when they
felt they might. Oh, no.
Right. Before that I set it up.
Eva hasn't been on this podcast,right?
Right. Are they comfortable talking
(03:08):
about themselves? Yes.
All right. I got it.
Interesting. Wait, no, there's something
right before that. There is nothing before that
wait. What do you want me to talk
about when I? Oh, at 4:24 you said.
Dude, I figured it out. There you.
Go. I said what?
And I'll start from there with that intonation all over.
Again, right. I want to hear all of these.
Can you just read through your guys's text messages so I can
(03:28):
understand the vibe? So after I said damn at 6:01 in
the morning, you text me again at 2:47 PM saying just to be
sure you close, right? And then I responded at 286
where you at man? It's almost 3.
And then you said you never gaveme a time, a location, a server.
So I'm just kidding, bro. I today lots of projects in the
works, got to meet new people, hang out with friends more,
(03:48):
etcetera. I'm very fortunate.
And then I said all caps wrong person and then you said all
caps lol. And then he said dude, I figured
it out and I said what? And he said Eva hasn't been on
the so I was told podcast right?I said right?
And he said are they comfortabletalking about themselves?
And I said yes. And he said all right I got it.
And then I said, interesting. It's usually not this difficult
(04:09):
to start. I think he's just a little, he's
a little a little nervous. Why he's a little nervous?
This is our first guest that's not Luca.
It's just me. Where is Luca dude?
You gotta. Find he says hi, by the way, I
was talking to him today. Yeah.
Really. Yeah, I keep up with everybody.
Yeah, I told him about that shirt thing.
(04:29):
It was so weird. What shirt thing?
You saw the shirt hanging up. Oh yeah, somebody gave you a
shirt at work. Yeah, it was.
He came in early to see me. OK.
Oh, he gave you that. That's happened twice, twice now
and different customers. It wasn't him the first time.
Isn't that weird? I must look like I don't have
enough clothes. So the in their any of us
experience a lot of men have come and gifted.
(04:49):
They give me things but never money.
Just like dumb shit like. What kind of dumb shit?
Let's see, they bring me pastries.
They bring me weird coins. It's, it's kind of like, you
know, I don't know if you've ever nannied or babysat or
something, but sometimes when I take the kids to the park, yeah,
they, I let them run around the playground and they bring back
like little trinkets to me, likestuff that they dig up in the
(05:11):
dirt, right? Kind of like that.
But they're grown ass fucking men over 40 so.
Do they ever give you like, weird things?
Yeah, I mean, I had a guy, the last guy who gave me a shirt.
He actually brought me. I have a photo of it somewhere
that took of like the biggest stack of T-shirts.
Like it was like huge. It was so heavy.
He handed it to me and he told me to wear them with nothing on.
(05:33):
What? I'm not joking.
This was at work. I told what?
Yeah, I told. I told the manager.
Nobody cares but. Yeah, step up, dog.
Some context. I work with Eva, Yeah, we work
at the same place, which we willnot disclose, but Denny's you
are also. Bro Denny's.
Denny's would be more fun, I think.
(05:54):
Yeah, Denny's might be more fun,but I have done collaborative
posts on Instagram before with Eva and their username is Are
you OK with me sharing? Oh yeah, I love attention.
Bird let's on Instagram BRDLETS.You got to put that bull heart
right when you give out the name.
(06:14):
While while you're saying the name so nobody can hear it all
right. Got it.
So amazing artist. Fantastic.
Just so fantastic. How fantastic.
Like really fantastic, like the kind of art that like makes you
depressed in a good way, a good way because it's really good at
like communicating an experiencethat is so heavy that it's it
(06:38):
doesn't seem like you can tell it's real.
Like you can tell it's so, yeah.So Eva and I work together and
one of the many experiences thatthey have is are with are with
men. Yes.
I have so much to say about men,unfortunately.
With men who. So a customer brought you a
stack of shirts and told you notto wear anything below them.
(06:59):
Yeah, he said that I would look really good naked with a giant
T-shirt. Actually.
What that's? Crazy.
He said that the first time and then I was like, that's weird.
Like, The thing is, I feel is that they talk so much about,
like, you should be like, standing up for yourself.
But there's something like in the moment of I feel so violated
and scared. I'm like, I could be killed.
Like if I leave the store right now, I might not come back
inside. So that's when I kind of like,
(07:20):
shut down. And I'm like, OK, OK.
But then he came back with the shirts and he gave them all to
me. And then he started asking me
why, like, I wasn't wearing themto work.
And then I was like, oh, we're not allowed to wear shirts with
patterns at work. Oh.
My gosh. It's like a whole thing.
Do I know this guy? Yeah.
Is he a regular? Yeah.
Is he still coming? Yep.
Oh, that's so disturbing. I didn't know that.
(07:42):
This was the first one I've everheard this.
I do well. Well, I mean, I'm not.
I have a boss over me, so don't ask me what's going on.
And I can't do much without thatboss doing something.
I've mentioned it. I always tell the boss what's
going on, but if they don't wantto deal with it, they don't want
to deal with it because the customer brings in money and if
it's consistent money, it doesn't matter what I say.
OK. I kind of have an idea of who it
is, but this is technically yourfirst appearance.
(08:04):
Yeah, on this podcast and the way that this podcast on one
end, we have just episodes whereit's just me talking and ranting
or whatever for about 15 to 20 minutes, sometimes even less
than that. And then the the majority of it
so far has pretty much been justconversations between myself and
(08:24):
this other person. We just talk about things and
culture and it's more of the free form type of discussion.
Yeah, well, what's been on your mind lately that you want me to
discuss with you or that you would like to hear my input on?
What have we been talking about?What episodes have we been?
Well, the last one I listened toyou were mad about.
Wait, you've heard or stuff? A couple of them we can talk.
(08:46):
About that, what do you take away from?
It you 2 are very interesting people.
Which ones have you heard? I heard the well, obviously I
heard that one about you talkingabout when we bombed Iran and
everyone was like, it's World War Three, it's World War Three
and you went on a fucking rant. Yes, this was last.
Week and I heard most of the episode, but it was interesting.
(09:09):
And then some of the one about religion, a little bit about
that one. And then I also heard like the
one where you were talking aboutthings that you would have said
to yourself when you were younger.
That was interesting, but I haven't listened to all of them
because I have a really short attention span, so I bounce
around a lot. That's all good.
But I got the vibe that you 2 had a very, very comfortable
(09:30):
relationship and just kind of were able to follow like the
flow of wherever the conversation was going.
So I'm happy to talk about how angry I am.
It meant at all times I'll be polite.
I mean, men and in general, I'vebeen thinking about a lot
recently because I think it's interesting how, like, I've
noticed since Trump became president, and this happened in
(09:51):
2016 as well, the violence against like, people that are
perceived to be women has gottenso much worse.
And I know all of it. It's because they feel empowered
to do so. But I remember, like in 2016,
like, that was when men started like, laying hands on me and
like, flirtatious ways. You know, I also was in Chicago.
So, like, it's different out there, but I've noticed since
(10:12):
he's come back into power, two men are so much more open about
their views on what women shouldbe doing.
You remember, I can't say names,but you know the guy who gets a
coffee with an extra shot you can.
Always say names and I just bleep them it's.
Fucking OK. Do you know what he said to me
today? Oh, what did he?
Say that's. Crazy.
OK. I mean, like, extremely
inappropriate behavior, you know, even up until, like,
(10:33):
Trump, like, I feel like he's a good example, but not
necessarily in the way that maybe I'm trying to point out.
But just in general, he's alwaysbeen kind of creepy towards me.
Always says like, kind of out ofpocket shit about, like, me
running away with him, you know,dumb stuff like that.
But today he was like, you're almost 18, right?
And I said I said yeah, because I'm a fucking liar.
And he said, let me know when you're legal.
(10:54):
I get the sense he's like an older guy.
Yeah, he's middle-aged, OK, you know, but I've noticed a lot of
that kind of rhetoric coming outmore, you know, even if I'm
talking with like other Co workers, like there are men that
have been waiting for her to turn 18 and ask her every single
time they come in when she's turning 18.
OK? Like and that stuff that didn't
happen up until then now like they just start running their
(11:15):
mouths and it it's, it's odd forme to see it happen a second
time. I've actually never once
witnessed any of these interactions.
What to be honest with you, likeI've, I've, I hear out a lot
like it's, I've heard a lot fromEva about like the interactions
with men, but I've never been there to witness it.
Why do you think that might be? Well.
For one, we don't really work together that often.
And even when we do work together, I literally like, not
(11:37):
an earshot. Like the other day, something
had happened. And yeah, yeah, like an older,
an older man, like in his 60s made comments and was like, are
you flirting with me and stuff like that.
I was in the vicinity, but I wasn't listening like, because I
know this customer. He's a regular and I actually
know a lot about his life because he doesn't know who I
am, but I know who he is. And I will say he's actually a
somewhat prominent religious leader in like in a denomination
(12:01):
here in California. And he didn't, it wasn't not
like he said anything like was like that he should go to jail
for, but he just was saying old man creepy things.
I think you what you all rolled up your sleeve or something.
I did. I rolled up my sleeve and he
said, are you flirting with me? Are you gonna show me what a
strong girl you are? First off, I'm not a girl.
Just like really quick to get that out of the way.
(12:23):
Not a girl at all. But that's not a conversation
you want to have with the religious leader.
So just old men being old men, saying things like that.
But I definitely notice it change as we move more towards
like this kind of governmental style.
And I think as have you ever read those articles and stuff
about like the new Trump women? Yeah.
(12:44):
Trad. Yeah.
No no no, not trad wise but likethe way women have to look in
order to be in Trump circle. Oh yeah, the MAGA look.
Yeah, yeah, The MAGA look, I feel like as that kind of more
traditionally feminine idea comes back into the forefront,
men are a little more comfortable saying things that
are traditional, I suppose. Yeah.
And and it's not that it was even like squashed during
(13:07):
Biden's, you know, era because like, it never really is.
But the openness with which theyrun their mouths, tell you their
opinions, take advantage of the power dynamics that they know
are there in a service industry space is very weird.
And we all talk about it like all the femme people at work are
like, that was gross. That was weird.
Sometimes you laugh at it and sometimes you just burn out.
(13:28):
I will say I'm completely unaware with this except I do
witness it sometimes, just not to the same degree obviously
because I'm not a woman. It's infantilizing.
That weird old guy behavior. Yeah, it's but but but it's I
mean, I'm not seeing it in old men.
I'm just seeing it in older men.You know what I'm saying?
Like these older men should already be at like bro, you're a
Gen. X.
(13:48):
Like you should at least I thinkyou watch TV enough to know that
like. We don't be talking anymore.
You know what I mean? But it's very much a
condescending way, or it's very much a way of like, you know,
oh, you're a sweet thing, or you're this little precious
thing, or you're Boomer. Two point O.
Boomer 2 point. O We've discussed this on here
actually. Maybe, yeah.
Gen. X being boomer 2 point O Yeah
(14:09):
that's why. They're not as old as the actual
boomers, but they do literally all the same.
They do as you're. Saying right now.
Yeah, yeah. Well, go on.
They didn't learn anything. Yeah.
I wonder if that's because they're not online.
I mean, they are online. Yeah, they're online, but
they're not. Then they're online just like in
Facebook and Instagram. Yeah, they're not online other
than that. You know what I mean?
(14:30):
And they're certainly not in circles online where they're
being challenged by far. It's just like a massive echo
chamber. So whereas millennials and and
younger are definitely online inall sorts of spaces, but All in
all sorts of spaces and much longer.
So what were the questions that you were going to ask?
First question was a follow up to you in the your workspace.
(14:51):
So when you hear him say he's not aware of these things or he
doesn't usually hear them, what goes through your mind?
Why do you think that is? Why do you think he hasn't heard
these things? Well, I think partially because
I know how you are at work, which is very much like kind of
compartmentalizing what's going on and just kind of like one
thing at a time, you know, it's like, if it's not, you know,
it's not super crucial or whatever.
Like it's not really worth the energy and stuff.
(15:12):
Yeah. And I do know that, but it took
me a long time to understand it.And I don't think like,
honestly, it pisses me off, but like, what am I, you know, it
pisses me off when anybody doesn't like step up.
I think part of what bothers me,like I feel as though, and some
of this is self-inflicted, but it's also just based on my like
life experience is that then people stick together.
(15:34):
You know, we have people like even in like the small context
of this workspace, like we have customers that we see coming and
we swap each other out, you know, to support each other.
And it is like not even a thought.
And I think that kind of camaraderie is like, it's
something that has always meant a lot to me.
And it's why I have very rarely felt comfortable around men,
(15:57):
even ones who are like allies orfeel or are supportive or even
listen, because I have so many experiences where when things
happen, they aren't there or they see that we're talking to
someone for too long, but they don't come back out.
You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of like
removal from the situation mentally, physically.
And I think the lack of presencefrom specifically like Sisman
(16:17):
has always bothered me. Like we have other men that work
there who do like it. It just doesn't seem to be on
their radar in a body language way where I can tell when
another woman is uncomfortable. I can tell when the girls are
uncomfortable. Like we, we just know almost,
you know, if a guy's talking to you for too long, you know, to
back up. Like I can't even fully like
verbalize the way that we don't feel safe for the eye contact we
(16:38):
do. And I think it took me a while
to understand that. Like it wasn't a personal thing.
It just doesn't cross sis men's minds, you know?
Like, I remember a conversation you and I had a really long,
long time ago, probably when I first started.
And there was a guy who was, like talking to me for so long.
And I was like, really uncomfortable.
And I turned around and you wereoff the floor.
(17:00):
And I remember talking to you afterwards and being like, hey,
if someone's talking to me for too long, I'm uncomfortable.
And you're like, yeah, of course.
But like, you know, I had to, like, initiate that
conversation, right? I think just in general, I, it
took me so long just to not takeit personally and to understand
that, like, not everybody is going to understand that
collective experience. Does that make sense?
That makes sense. I don't know.
(17:20):
Does that mean I? Feel recently mean you talked
about like being on code That's beyond code right there.
Yeah, we did. That's an example for those of
you listening, but. It's not a code that we're
familiar with at all. Yeah, that's gonna happen.
Like every groups gonna have their version of code.
Yeah, but it's important to havethat.
So that's a good example. If you're talking about music,
like why certain scenes are likeeffed up, we use Machine Gun
(17:40):
Kelly as an example. I was like, see like me and you
may not like Machine Gun Kelly. A lot of people do in that
scene. And my argument was cuz you guys
are not on code. That's how people like that can
come in and there's really no problem.
They just come in all the time. And so his question to me was
like, So what do you do going forward and blah, blah, blah.
And my thing was like, you gottabe on code.
(18:02):
You gotta decide what this is. After you decide what this is,
that's how you can move forward with what do you do with those
kinds of people. The term gatekeeping gets
misused a lot. People think of gatekeeping as
like, I know of a bit of information and I'm just not
going to tell anybody. It's very like high school.
And I think I said this in the episode, I touched on it, but I
basically said was like, one that's wrong. 2 Gatekeeping
(18:24):
isn't literally shutting people out.
It's you're maintaining the integrity of this thing.
And so someone can, if someone can meet what it is that you
need to be to be in the space and then you can come in so the
walls aren't closed, but you do need to be able to understand
whatever things you have to. Yeah.
And the music say it's like you dude, you're not metal like or
if you wear a shirt it's like OKname by bands like.
(18:45):
It's very looking. You have to fit a certain.
Yeah, and that's the dumbest form of gatekeeping.
Whereas and if that's the mentality you wanna have, it
doesn't go anywhere. Quick example would be all kinds
of bars and venues that closed down after 2020 because of the
pandemic. But they'll all tell you they
were struggling before that. The nail and coffin was the
pandemic. They were struggling before that
(19:05):
because they've already in each spaces.
So they were always on the brinkof potentially going out of
business because they had a small following.
And then because of COVID, only some of the people of the few
people that were in those spaceswere able to go.
So that's it. And if you tell someone who has
that very misguided way of thinking about gatekeeping,
their thing is always, I love the space, so I'm going to tell
(19:27):
no one about it. But in reality, like if you tell
no one about your favorite restaurant, it goes out of
business. That's it, That's it.
There's no nothing else. You know, that's where I was
getting at when we needed to talk about this.
So OK, yeah, being an example ofbeing on code.
That's a great way to explain that.
I know you had a second questionthat you were going to ask, but
I think that this is a good place to end this episode.
(19:49):
And then next week we will get into the second question, which
I know is going to be geared more towards politics.
So if you are listening and you want to hear more of Eva in this
episode, then stick around and we'll see you next week.
(20:10):
Till then, see you next time.
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