May 7, 2025 • 48 mins
How do High Growth professional services firms go to market today? Download the 2025 High Growth Study to find out: https://www.hingemarketing.com/highgrowth
In this episode of Spiraling Up, the Hinge team discusses the complexities of time tracking in professional services, debating its benefits and drawbacks. Then, Becca Johns, an expert in accounting marketing, joins the show to play ‘Buy or Sell?’ where she shares insights on the challenges and potential of marketing in the accounting industry. The conversation touches on marketing strategies, ROI, risk aversion, the impact of marketing on M&A, and the importance of building personal brands.
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Episode Transcript
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Austin McNair (00:00):
in today's episode of Spiraling Up.
Did you log your time today?
No.
Really?
Did you log it?
Our team is gonna discuss whentime tracking helps and hurts,
and then we get to speak withBecca.
Johns a leading voice in theaccounting marketing space.
We're going to see if she buysor sells some of the hot takes
(00:22):
we hear for accountingmarketers.
Welcome everyone.
This is spiraling up with Hinge.
Welcome everyone to Spiraling Upthe podcast for professional
services marketers and businessleaders.
My name is Austin and I'm joinedwith my co-hosts, Mary Blanche.
(00:46):
How you doing MB
Mary Blanche (00:48):
Doing good.
Doing good.
Austin McNair (00:49):
and Joe Pope.
Joe, how are you doing today?
Joe Pope (00:52):
I am gonna say the same thing as Mary Blanc doing
pretty good.
Austin McNair (00:55):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Well, welcome to another episodeof Spiraling Up.
We have a lot to get going, uh,a lot to dig into today.
Um.
I can tell you that, I had anadventure, this weekend.
I'm, I'm glad to be back here inmy office.
but I wasn't sure if I was gonnamake it, because last night, my
(01:16):
family took a day trip, about anhour and a half south, uh, of
our city.
Not a, not a long road trip, butwe went to this like really cool
surf.
Wave Park.
It was like a wave garden.
It like produces waves.
You get to go surfing on it.
It was for my kids.
Awesome experience, but then onour way home, wouldn't you know
it, the car broke down, and ittook, you know, what, what was
(01:38):
supposed to be a 90 minutedrive?
Took my family of five, uh,three tow trucks and about 12
hours to get home.
So yeah, that was an adventureto have with two young children
and a newborn baby, pretty muchthree months old.
Uh, but hey, we made it and I'mexcited to be here.
Joe Pope (01:59):
three.
Right.
Three.
Three tow trucks.
Sounds like you set the record.
For most amount of times a carcould break down in one trip.
Austin McNair (02:08):
Yeah, well there's the tow truck that I had
to flag down on the side of thehighway, to take us to a gas
station.
then there was the tow truck toget us back to our actual house.
and then there was the tow truckto the mechanic.
Uh.
So, yeah, it's, yeah, it was, itwas a big adventure of tow
trucks and, uh, learning how tospeak Portuguese about with, you
(02:30):
know, about car parts andproblems.
Yeah, so much, so much goodstuff there.
Mary Blanche (02:36):
Core memory.
Joe Pope (02:37):
If you had to power rank the tow trucks, what, what
was the order, you know, wasthere a, was there a tow truck
that stood out?
Austin McNair (02:43):
Well, I, I, the, the tow truck that stood out was
the first one because you know,when, when you're getting in a
tow truck, I'm like, how arethey gonna fit, like three kids
and my wife and some of ourstuff?
Like,
Joe Pope (02:54):
Car
Austin McNair (02:54):
what, what does this actually look like?
Yeah.
No, no car seats, you know, uh,other than the baby, which she,
she was in one.
Um, but like we get into it, ofcourse.
Anxiety and fear levels were,were, were high.
And my wife is the primarycommunicator in Portuguese.
And I'm like, okay, so is hetaking us, you know, back to our
(03:15):
city, back to our house?
Where did you tell him to takeus?
She goes, uh, actually now thatI think about it, I don't think
I told him where we live at all.
And I'm like, well then where ishe taking us?
Uh, so that was fun.
Uh, he took us to a little gasstation where we got more help.
So.
it was, it was, uh, a little bitof a crazy journey.
(03:36):
Not as crazy of a journey as Ihope that I'm gonna be having
next week.
Guys, I'm really excited.
Uh, we're gonna be seeing eachother at the Association for
Accounting Marketing Conference,the, the Annual Summit mb, this
is gonna be your first timethere.
It's gonna be my first timethere.
What are you looking forward to?
Mary Blanche (03:56):
Honestly, I'm looking forward to the three of
us all being together andgetting to record a couple of
these in person together.
I
Joe Pope (04:03):
Yeah.
Mary Blanche (04:04):
a number of these under our belt, but this will be
the first time that we'rerecording a podcast.
All three in the same, sameroom, so I think that's gonna be
fun.
Bring some good energy to thatevent.
Joe Pope (04:14):
Yeah, it's exciting because we'll also have the
opportunity being in a livesetting to maybe pull a few
folks out of the crowd and jointhe discussion.
We've, we've got a few, uh, neatideas planned as a part of it.
And, uh, our producer, John'sactually gonna be there
separately on his, on his ownaccord.
So, uh, really good opportunityfor all of us together to, uh,
make some content magic.
Austin McNair (04:36):
Yeah.
I mean, and more than that, Imean, just spend time together
physically.
I mean, uh, I.
There's, you know, I, I thinkwe've all, especially our
company, and I'm, I'm sure a lotof people can relate to this,
but, Folks that work withcompanies with more remote work.
I mean, you do.
I I think we are entering like anew era now where it's like,
yeah, work from home.
We've realized that there's alot of benefits, especially in
(04:59):
terms of like focus andproductivity.
but especially when you've beenworking with some of your
colleagues for such a long time,as the three of us have, you do
kind of feel like, ah, it wouldbe nice to like actually see
each other, uh, in person again.
So I.
It's gonna be a long trip forme, but I'm, I'm really looking
forward to seeing you guys atthe conference.
I think we're gonna have a greattime together.
Joe Pope (05:19):
Likewise, man.
Austin McNair (05:21):
Alright, well let's get into this week's
pivotal story.
I know this one is gonna be, uh,a, a fun one and, uh, we've got
lots of opinions on it.
So mb why don't we turn to younow for the pivotal story.
Mary Blanche (05:35):
right guys.
I, I am excited about this one.
today's pivotal story, we'rediving into a topic that is
beloved by many in theprofessional services marketing
space.
Are you ready for it?
Time tracking.
I can already see the look ofthe stain on, on Joe's face
(05:56):
right now, but hang with me.
Okay.
so I saw this interestingLinkedIn post this week from
Jonathan Stark posing thequestion, believe every minute
should be billable?
when you think about it, ourworld revolves around time,
right?
So time is fundamental to how wemeasure costs and.
(06:18):
And value for our clients.
And, you know, so many of us, itfeels essential, but where do
draw the line and when does thisnecessity start to hinder
growth?
his post goes on to say, um, youknow, he suggests that being too
focused on billable hours forpricing could have unintended
consequences.
(06:39):
Does it discourage efficiency?
If it means less billable time,could it limit innovation?
So the core of our discussiontoday is when is time tracking a
vital tool and when might it beholding us back?
Austin McNair (06:53):
Oh boy.
Where do we start?
I mean, Joe, I know personallyyou love tracking your time,
don't you?
Mary Blanche (06:58):
Big fan.
Joe Pope (06:59):
It is pretty much the bane of my existence.
Somewhere, somewhere in therewith, uh, running out of, uh,
water in the middle of a pitch,meeting, after meeting like, you
know, 30 minute block meetingsafter each other.
It's somewhere in there istimekeeping.
Austin McNair (07:14):
I guess I'm more neutral on it.
I mean, I understand there's,and I know MB is not neutral on
it, so we're gonna get, we'regonna, I'll say, I'll give one
perspective.
Um, so.
One of the, one of the things Ido at Hinge with some of our
clients is that I work directlywith visible experts who are
trying to kind of, uh, bolstertheir visibility in the
(07:37):
marketplace and therefore bringmore visibility to their
companies.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I've had this discussion
where literally in the middle ofa group training or a one-on-one
training.
If the expert will stop and belike, wait, but am I allowed to
do this?
Like, am I allowed to spend moretime networking on on LinkedIn?
Am I allowed because.
(07:57):
Their leadership and whatthey're hearing kind of
reinforced to them veryregularly from their company and
leadership is about billableutilization and how if you're
not meeting certain thresholds,uh, of utilization, then that
has consequences for, you know,how the business is operating,
the health of the company andstuff.
But on the flip side of that,there's something.
(08:19):
There in regards to marketingand, and, and like, if these are
these non-billable activities,if you're gonna be asking the
experts to be more visible, tocontribute to thought leadership
content, that could be a realmixed message situation.
And I can tell you that most ofthe visible experts I talk to
feel like they're in between arock and a hard place there.
Not necessarily in terms of howthey log their time, but the
(08:40):
fact that the, that, that thetracking mechanism itself is
sort of.
It can be used against them to,you know, to measure like their
effectiveness or, you know, youknow how much they're
contributing.
Whereas, you know, contributingto marketing could be seen as,
oh, that's maybe more off to theside or more soft.
So I don't know.
That's, that's just at leastsome of what I've seen out
(09:01):
there.
And b, I know that you havestronger feelings about this.
Mary Blanche (09:04):
No, I mean, I, I hear that pain point for sure.
I mean, I think from where I sitas someone who's very focused on
our day-to-day businessoperations, tracking isn't just
about building our clients.
It's, it's absolutely essentialfor our business intelligence.
I.
'cause it provides the raw datathat we need to understand our
operational efficiency and tomake those informed strategic
(09:26):
decisions.
You can't make it without,without that data.
Uh, and if you know, if youthink about it without accurate
time tracking, how do we reallyknow where our resources are
being allocated?
I mean, we can, we can guess.
Sure, we can guess, but we can'tdefinitively analyze project
profitability.
It allows us to see which typesof projects are most efficient,
(09:47):
where we might be experiencingbottlenecks.
It's crucial for capacityplanning and ultimately to see.
Where we're generating the mostvalue for our clients.
and then when you look beyondthe individual projects, uh,
aggregated time data gives usinsights into the performance of
different service lines,different teams.
(10:08):
And then that's where you canstart identifying, okay, or we
need more training here, or, youknow, we need to improve this
process.
Over here to get us where we'regoing.
And then it allows us tobenchmark our performance over
time and check the impact of, ofthose changes that we're
implementing.
So, yeah, you know, I feelstrongly on this.
Um, it's, it's a non-negotiablefor me.
Joe Pope (10:29):
Right.
I mean, I, I hear all of theuseful arguments, uh, especially
the performance generated ones.
I think a lot of that makes a,a, a good portion of sense.
I I think part of the challengehere is that everybody's role is
different, right?
So let's, uh, from myperspective, I mean, one of the
bigger challenges is that, um,making the magic of a sale
(10:50):
happen is not something thatfits in a linear fashion, and
therefore it doesn't break.
it doesn't break neatly intovarious buckets.
Uh, I've constantly ran into thechallenges being somebody who is
focused in, in businessdevelopment and therefore very
limited in terms of billablework, if you wanna refer to it
in that form or fashion.
Uh, and so, you know, I thinkthere's been times where I've
(11:12):
worked at companies in the pastwhere they tried to break up
every single piece of a salescycle into a bucket, and I'd end
up with like these 20.
Tasks that I had supposedlyneeded to enter at the end of
the day, 10 minutes sendingemails, 20 minutes doing follow
up, 15 minutes doing proposals.
It's just a ludicrous action oflike the amount of time that
(11:33):
gets spent in something thatisn't going to be performance
based.
So I, that isn't necessarilyeven gonna be actionable.
Like, I don't think I ever saw areport telling me, uh, how it
maybe we could reduce ourproposal time and our e and
increase our email time 15% eachway.
So I, I, I hear it.
I, I think part of the challengehere is the complication that
people sometimes put around it,the amount of idea that, that,
(11:56):
okay, we can break all this downinto every nitty gritty detail.
And, and at that point, you'regonna start to lose folks like
myself who gets emails from MaryBlanc and her team about not
filling in my time sheet, uh, onregular occasions.
Austin McNair (12:12):
I know that I'm perfect at filling in my time
sheet.
Isn't that right?
Mb
Mary Blanche (12:16):
Honestly, Austin's Austin, you do a pretty good
job.
You, you, you hang in there withthe, with the best of them or,
Austin McNair (12:22):
I maybe not the best, but.
Mary Blanche (12:25):
maybe, maybe middle of the road we'll say.
We'll go with that.
That sounds good.
Joe Pope (12:29):
I was gonna say, I need an AI tool that just kind
of follows my brain around andlike jots it that, like, isn't
Elon working on that, thatNeuralink thing?
I know that's to like helppeople with like, have
challenges and need, uh,specific needs, but for, for
the.
We'll call it the 2.0 versionfor when, uh, all us with first
world problems, uh, needsomething.
(12:49):
I just, it can jot down where mybrain was going, uh, in one
moment or the next, and we canneatly put it into a time sheet.
Mary Blanche (12:55):
That's that that's the first problem that you would
like it to solve for you if youhad access to that kind
Joe Pope (13:00):
I acknowledge the true meaning of what that tool was
for.
It's, it's, it's to help peopleand then when those people have
been helped, it can help me domy time sheet.
Austin McNair (13:10):
I love that for you, Joe, and I think it'll
definitely get there, I'm sure.
so we're gonna, I.
Pivot now to, our interview withBecca Johns.
Becca is a friend of Hinge.
She is a huge influencer in thespace of accounting, marketing,
and we're gonna ask her forsome, if she's gonna buy or sell
some of these hot takes in theaccounting marketing space.
(13:33):
And I'm really curious.
What she thinks on this wholetopic of billable time,
utilization, time tracking.
So we'll make sure to ask her aquestion about that.
Uh, so let's turn now to ourepisode with Becca.
Did you guys know that contentcreation is the number one
marketing priority of highgrowth firms?
Mary Blanche (13:54):
Well, did you know that high growth firms spend
twice as much on their marketingthan their slower growing
competition?
Joe Pope (14:01):
I am about to blow all of your minds.
Did you know that high growthfirms have two times the number
of marketers per capitaemployee?
Austin McNair (14:10):
See, I think if we downloaded the new edition,
the latest edition, the 10thedition of the high Growth
study, we would all know thesethings.
would all the people listeningto this podcast.
So if you haven't done so yet,head over to hinge
marketing.com/high growth.
And there you can download thefree executive summary.
(14:32):
I.
On what we've learned about thefastest growing professional
services firms.
It's free, it's 40 pages.
Wrote a bunch of great analysisin there.
You're gonna learn whatmarketing techniques are working
for the fastest growingcompanies.
You absolutely want to pick itup if you haven't yet.
So go ahead and do that.
Hinge marketing.com/high growth.
(14:53):
Alright, so we, we'd like toWelcome to the podcast Becca
Johns.
Becca helps accounting andadvisory firms grow smarter,
backed by deep industryexperience, a practical point of
view and fresh perspective.
She is a consultant, strategist,and collaborator who
understands.
Your world and helps you moveforward.
(15:15):
She brings clarity to complexchallenges and energy and new
ideas.
Becca, we couldn't think of abetter person to have on the
podcast here to talk about theaccounting, marketing space.
How are you doing today?
Becca Johns (15:28):
I'm doing really good
Austin McNair (15:29):
I.
Becca Johns (15:30):
I was really excited when you invited me.
I was kind of gonna.
Light into your DMS at somepoint and ask if I can come on.
So I'm glad it didn't have tocome to that.
So thanks for having me.
Austin McNair (15:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, as I kind of outlined therein your introduction, um, you
are a seasoned accountingmarketing professional.
You were with your firm foralmost 20 years before just
recently taking the step tobeing more of an independent
consultant.
We'd love to know, just, youknow, as we're getting started,
like tell us about that bigstep.
What are you, what's next kindof in your, your career here in
(16:01):
your journey?
What are you, what are you gonnaget out of it?
Becca Johns (16:03):
Yeah.
Um, like you said, I just leftmy firm after almost 20 years,
um, and found the consultingpath.
Um, so I've been on my own forlike two and a half weeks and
I'm absolutely loving it.
Um, I'm working with a reallycool client right now, um, on
some marketing and strategiccommunications.
Um, programs and plans relatedto some significant m and a
(16:25):
activity that they have.
and it's really cool to be ableto like, develop the strategy
and also have my hands in theexecution, which is
Joe Pope (16:33):
Yeah.
Becca Johns (16:34):
I was missing.
Um, and I'm really lookingforward to working with a
variety of different firms andkind of having that little bit
more variety in my day to dayversus working for, for one firm
for so long.
You know, it was just time forsomething fresh and, and new and
I'm really excited.
Joe Pope (16:48):
Our, our colleague Will, Casserly likes to say in
his intros that the agency guysgot to have all the fun.
And, uh, he was somebody who haddone in-house work for, I think
three, three decades and, uh,made that switch over to come
join us.
But I, I think having heard howyou just described that Becca,
that that was the, immediately,the phrase that came to mind,
this idea that you really kindaget to pick and choose now.
(17:10):
How you get to work through someof these different challenges
and the excitement of gettingto, uh, work with a diverse
group.
Uh, so I, you know, one otherthing, Becca, I think that's
awesome is, uh, yourrelationship with Hinge goes
back a few years as well.
Uh, I know specifically with theAssociation of Accounting
Marketers, Is there more on thehorizon there for you as well,
uh, and as you launched thisinitiative?
Becca Johns (17:31):
yeah, of course I'm, I'm serving on a lot of
different committees, for aimand we'll continue to do that.
I'll be at the summit in acouple weeks, um, and looking
forward to connecting witheveryone there.
but yeah, AIM is, aim is a greatresource and, it's really nice
that it connects members withorganizations like Hinge, for
the resources that you offer andkind of helps get your expertise
(17:51):
and knowledge in front of ustoo.
so yeah, big fan of aim.
Big fan of Hinge.
I love it.
Austin McNair (17:57):
Well, yeah, you, I think with, with all this
experience you have, Becca, likewe said, we, um, you know,
really wanted to have a, a, anepisode here that was centered
around the accounting, marketingspace.
So many of the people that wetalk to, a lot of our clients,
they are, you know, in theaccounting or consulting space,
advisory space.
Um, and we really wanted tobring together some.
(18:18):
Some questions for you in termsof what's going on in that
world.
So, um, we'd like to play a gamewith you and it's called Buy or
Sell.
So very simple.
Essentially.
Uh, we're gonna give you aseries of statements about the
world of accounting, marketing.
Some of them may be more on thecontroversial side than others.
(18:40):
And really we just want to hearfrom you.
Do you buy this statement?
Meaning you think that it's trueor do you sell it?
Meaning now that's, that's notreally true.
Or, uh, there's, you know, a lotof caveats there.
We want to hear kind of, youknow, your perspectives on all
this.
So, yeah, honest reactions, yourreasoning behind them.
buy or sell.
This is the accounting marketingedition of Buy or Sell, so we're
(19:01):
super excited about it.
Mary Blanche, do you want tokick us off with kind of our,
our buyer sell SEC section?
Mary Blanche (19:08):
Let's do it.
All right.
Here's a good one to get usstarted.
So, Becca, buy or sell, firmsare too risk averse in their
marketing
Becca Johns (19:20):
Bye
Mary Blanche (19:21):
buying it.
She's
Becca Johns (19:23):
yeah, I think, um, especially if, if budget is a
concern and your budget istight.
it can be hard and, and I don'tknow if it's the accounting firm
or the marketers or, you know, acombination, but, um, I think we
can definitely be a little bit,more.
Adventurous.
and I've always admired thesmaller firms because they're so
(19:44):
much more agile and nimble Andthey can just try things easier
without having to get like, youknow, through all the red tape.
so I know that can contend toslow things down.
But yeah, I would love to seethe profession, adding a little
bit of edge to it.
Austin McNair (19:57):
You, you brought up budgeting, so I wanted to
just kind of throw in some datahere.
Um, so in both of our recenthigh growth study on accounting
firms.
And in the AIM study that'scoming out, we've seen that the
percentage of revenue dedicatedto marketing in the accounting
space has actually gone down.
(20:18):
it, it looks like during thepandemic time, it looks like
maybe accounting marketers weregiven a little bit more extra
marketing dollars to kind ofadjust sort things out, maybe
take a little bit more risk.
But since then we've just seen.
Continued pullbacks.
I'm wondering has that been yourexperience?
Has that been the, theexperience of your peers when
(20:39):
you've had conversations withthem in terms of the risk
adverseness and budgeting thatyou were mentioning?
I'd love to hear a little bitmore detail there.
Becca Johns (20:46):
Yeah, I think I saw some of that, at my firm and
with others, but I also seefirms that are, you know, still
making investments in brandingin technology, whether that's a
CRM or marketing automation.
I.
So I don't know if I'd sayacross the board, but sometimes
if you are making those biggerinvestments, you know, you do
have to cut back in other areas.
(21:07):
Um, so I think it's just reallyimportant to be strategic with
your budgets and, you know,think about are you getting the
results that you want from them?
And then also like making thecase to firm leadership about,
you know, this is why we'redoing it.
This is how this ties back tothe firm's strategic plan.
This is how it impacts sales.
Um, and make sure that you canmake that case for yourself.
And then if you feel like it'ssomething worth keeping in the
(21:28):
budget or worth investing in,that you can sell that.
Austin McNair (21:31):
How about when it comes to like, um, being risk
adverse in terms of, the kindsof marketing that goes on at a
company or maybe the, the, um,you know, some of the techniques
that are invested in like, I.
We've had experiences workingwith some of our clients in the
space where there's a little bitof an apprehension to, do things
like video or invest more intothings that are maybe more of
(21:53):
the top of the marketing funnel,more brand awareness, like as
you mentioned, there might besome sensitivity there to like
marketers feeling like they needto, to show ROI and demonstrate
everything and sometimes.
making investments in thingslike a new brand video or a new
website, those can feel kind oflike softer marketing
initiatives have to take place.
(22:14):
Like, do you feel like that thatcontinues to be a big sticking
point in the space as well?
Like in terms of being riskadverse?
Yeah.
Becca Johns (22:19):
Yeah.
I do.
Um, I think, you know,especially things that are, if
you're just doing like some topof the funnel email campaigns
and you already have thesoftware, all that really takes
is time to develop it.
But for firm leadership, liketime is literally money.
Um, I've had a sticky note on mybulletin board for probably 20
years that says my competitionis the billable hour.
(22:42):
And like really important toremember that like you can just
say, oh, it's not gonna cost usanything, but they think, oh,
that's costing your teams timeto build that.
Um, and the, those brandingactivities are really important
to do, but those are the hardestto show ROI on because
Joe Pope (22:57):
Mm-hmm.
Becca Johns (22:58):
isn't gonna be like, oh yeah, we're gonna get a
new client out of that activity.
But it's just getting the nameout there and the awareness,
which are really important todo.
Those can cost money, especiallyif you're doing something like
video or a new website like youmentioned, the ROI is so
abstract.
It's, unless you're, unlessyou're doing an awareness survey
before and after, you know,there's really no way to measure
(23:19):
how effective it was.
so there has to be a level oftrust there with your marketing
team to, be able to not only trythings and.
Also be able to measure whetherthey're successful.
And sometimes that's just a gutreaction.
You know, is that worth our timeand the money that we're
spending on it?
do we think we're reaching theright people?
so I think you have to be kindof honest with yourself too, and
(23:40):
be willing to make those harddecisions where it's like, yeah,
that's fun to do.
I like doing that, but it's, wecould probably be spending that
time or those dollars better.
Mary Blanche (23:48):
Becca, I think you just made the perfect segue into
our, uh, second Buy or.
Sell.
Uh, so I'm going for it.
Buy or sell.
It is impossible to accuratelymeasure the ROI of marketing for
accounting firms.
Becca Johns (24:04):
Impossible.
I think I'm gonna sell that one.
you know, I think you canmeasure ROI, again, it's not
always like this.
event got us X dollars inrevenue.
but I know a lot of firms arestarting to measure marketing
influenced revenue where itmight not say, you know, we
landed this client because theyattended this event, but when
(24:26):
you look at a new client thatyou acquired, what were the
marketing touches that they hadbefore that?
and so, you know, imposs, is itimpossible?
No.
That you can measure certainthings.
but I also don't think that youshould rely solely on.
Solely on those ROI metrics.
Joe Pope (24:41):
we actually pulled that one specifically from doing
some search online where peopleare just complaining and talking
towards some of thesechallenges.
And actually, ROI has been areoccurring topic on this
podcast already, a coupleepisodes.
And you referenced thosemulti-touch pieces though,
right?
And that it may not necessarilyinvolve dollars at the end of
the day if we're talking aboutour return.
(25:02):
What are some of those metricsthough, that come to mind?
Like so, If we're talkingtouches, what are some of
example touches where, you getfrom point A to point B, CD and
you end up with a new client orreoccurring revenue?
Talk about some of thosedifferent, uh, ways that we can
measure.
Becca Johns (25:19):
Yeah.
Um, you know, depending on whatyour tech stack looks like, um,
you know, let's assume you havea CRM and a marketing automation
platform and you can tracksomeone's user journey through
the website.
you know, for, for us at Ray,even if someone, you know, if
someone filled out the contactform on our website, and even if
they said they were referred byanother client or a center of
influence, you know, we stillcounted that as a website lead.
(25:41):
Because they came to our websiteto validate that.
Like, yes,
Joe Pope (25:45):
Amen.
Becca Johns (25:45):
I wanna work with that I trust.
so, you know, you can tracktheir user journey through the
site that led them to thatcontact form.
you can look at the emails thatyou've sent them, the marketing
emails that you've sent them,what they've opened, what
they've clicked on, that kind ofthing.
So if you're looking at thatlike individual level,
definitely relying on the techstack and the kind of the creepy
(26:06):
stuff that we're looking atbehind the scenes.
my firm also used Intro Hive, sowe could look at, you know, how
sticky the relationship was at acompany.
Um, how many contacts did wehave?
How recent is, are thoseinteractions?
and you can look at your topclients and see like, okay, we
haven't been touching thisclient recently.
(26:26):
Like we need to make sure thatsomeone's.
Consistently in contact withthem.
Joe Pope (26:30):
and with your organization kind of being, not
with, with Ray being, you know,in an organization that isn't
near your top 20, top 30 ofaccounting firms, but it's still
of a decent size and making thattype of investment.
you see a benefit fororganizations that maybe even
smaller than Ray and potentiallystarting to go down that avenue
and, how do you kind of makethat.
Argument to, uh, to leadershipin making those types of
(26:51):
investments.
Becca Johns (26:53):
Yeah, for sure.
you know, for me, CRM, itstarted off at Ray as a
marketing tool, but over theyears it definitely became just
like, this is something we needto operate the business.
You know, all new clients wereset up that way.
and I honestly think as thesmaller firms, like I mentioned
earlier, they're more agile,they're more nimble, and it
would be easier to set up a CRMsystem and keep the data
consistent and clean when youare smaller, versus, you know, a
(27:17):
bigger firm trying to make senseof all of that.
I think it's just easier toevolve the software with the
firm as it's growing andchanging.
and yeah, I feel like marketingautomation, if you're doing any
kind of content marketing,thought leadership, which you
should be.
you know, marketing automation,I feel like is, a necessity too.
Austin McNair (27:35):
One thing that was interesting from our recent
high growth study data, out ofall the industries we studied,
the accounting and financialservices industry was the worst
when they talked about,capturing and using marketing
and BD metrics, it was kind of asurprise to us because, I mean,
we, we know so many accountingmarketers who super sharp and we
know there's like a pretty high.
(27:56):
Utilization of these marketingtechnology tools in the
accounting space yet, like when,and, and we're trying to figure
out like, are accountingmarketers just being more hard
on themselves than maybe likeconsultants might be or
engineers might be.
but like out of everybody thatwe asked, they were like, yeah,
we're, we're not proficient yetin capturing and using the data.
(28:17):
I, I'm wondering what you kindof would make of that kind of
data finding.
Does that.
Seem reasonable to you?
Is that kind of track with someof your conversations with your
peers?
knowing there's a lot ofchallenges there, but there's
definitely this feeling thatpeople feel like there's still a
lot of room to grow here.
Becca Johns (28:33):
I would wonder if that's just because it's hard to
get.
partners in the firm to actuallyadopt the technology and use it.
You know, you have the CRM, butunless they're putting their.
Updating their pipeline, keepingtheir contacts in there, keeping
them updated.
Like there's only, there's onlyso much we can do.
and again, our competition isthe billable hours.
(28:53):
And I literally had a partnersay to me once, like, do you
want me to be out selling or doyou want me to be updating CRM?
And I was like, well, I want youto do both.
but you know, find an admin toupdate it for you if you don't
have the time to do it.
But that is their mindset.
It's like I could either beservicing my clients or.
Developing new business insteadof spending time in this tool.
And you know, of course the moreyou use it, it just, it becomes
(29:14):
easier and easier.
But, that is the mindset thatthey have.
And so I would, I would imaginethat that's kind of where that,
that level of detail that yousaw in the responses is that
it's just like, yeah, we havethe software and we would love
to use it more, but we justdon't have because we can't
force people to use it.
Mary Blanche (29:31):
Okay, so I love this for us because you just
gave us a really good segue intoour.
Next buy yourself question.
Becca Johns (29:37):
it.
Mary Blanche (29:38):
We we're just keep going.
Joe Pope (29:39):
we did not, we did not give Becca the prompts be.
Mary Blanche (29:45):
Alright.
Buy or sell.
The expert practitioners withinyour firm should spend no less
than 90% of their time onbillable work.
Becca Johns (29:56):
Oh, sell.
They need to be spec.
I mean, billable work isimportant of course, but 90% is,
I feel like that's a reallyunrealistic target to hit, um,
to be 90% billable.
when you think about all theother things that we're asking
them to do, you know, developingteam members that are below
them.
developing new business, meetingwith referral sources and
(30:17):
centers of influence, you know,all the administrative stuff,
CRM, that kind of thing.
I think 90% is, prettyunattainable.
Mary Blanche (30:25):
Outta curiosity, what is, what is a more, um,
split between billable andnon-billable?
Becca Johns (30:33):
Um, I don't
Mary Blanche (30:34):
Um.
Becca Johns (30:34):
I, if I have a number.
I think it really depends on theperson and what their strengths
are.
You know, if you have someonethat just wants to be heads down
and doing client work, maybe itis closer to 90%.
But if you have someone, againthat's like a mentor to younger
staff in the team, or that isreally proficient at business
development and has a lot ofstrong relationships that you
(30:55):
want to be out in the community,theirs would be lower.
So I don't know if there's likea one size fits all.
I think it should be flexibleenough to like.
How can we best utilize thisperson's skill sets?
And maybe if it's just crankingout tax returns, that's great.
But, you know, there werepartners at Ray that didn't have
their own book of business.
They were just responsible for,you know, client relationships,
(31:17):
client satisfaction, bringing innew work.
so their billable target wasobviously much, much lower.
Mary Blanche (31:23):
Is that something that's like typically talked
about?
Like, well, I do have a lot ofbusiness development, so you
know, I'm really gonna betargeting more around 50%.
Or is it really just it is whatit is based on, like you were
saying, that specific person'skind of responsibilities.
Becca Johns (31:39):
I think a lot of firms have like a scorecard that
they use when they're thinkingabout at least the partner
compensation.
Um.
Maybe the billable hours is partof it, but I don't think it
should be the biggest part.
I think you need to look at whatyou're trying to accomplish as a
firm and are the partnerssupporting that?
are they meeting the targetsthat have been set for them?
I know a lot of firms havepartner plans that might spell
(32:01):
out what is expected of eachindividual partner for the year,
and I'm sure billable hours is.
Part of that.
but I think it can get dangerousif you say you need to hit this
billable hour threshold.
That's like, okay, well I'mgonna review this tax return
because I need some billablehours this week.
Whereas you should really bepushing that work down.
so I think, you know, I thinkthere's ways to fudge that.
(32:22):
And I think if you, if you setthe billable hour target too
high, you might just get peopledoing work that's actually below
their level just because they'retrying to hit the number.
So yeah, I would say be flexibleand.
kind of tailor it to eachperson.
Joe Pope (32:36):
So as a, um, you know, coming outta Ray and where you
had that role as a, as amarketing leader and being so
focused on how to incorporategrowth strategies into that, you
referenced a scorecard, but whatare some of the other ways of
which you, I.
Either used a scorecard ormeeting processes or, just
looking across the field ofpotential folks who can be a
(32:56):
part of the BD team, if youwill, and identify them and,
and, select them and put theminto the right positions.
What were some of the ways thatyou went about that Becca?
Becca Johns (33:05):
Um, so the, well, the first thing that comes to
mind is, you know, we went tomarket by industry.
So we built out the industryteams and obviously each team
had a leader, that had to haveknowledge in the industry,
leadership skills, capacity totake on this kind of thing.
then building, you know, basedon what that industry group was
trying to accomplish, they builttheir teams with people that
(33:29):
could help them accomplish that.
So, for example, not-for-profitwas a lot harder to cross sell
to existing clients.
Joe Pope (33:36):
Yeah.
Becca Johns (33:37):
developers involved who could help bring in new
clients.
manufacturing and construction,we have a lot of advisory
services that.
We could offer to those clients.
So that was, we had more of across-selling approach to those.
so again, you kind of have tolook at what the strategic
objective is and then fill in,fill in everything to support
that.
Joe Pope (33:57):
And I, and I hear you describing this, and the only
thing that can come to mind isthe death of the rainmaker,
right?
Because you're discussingmultiple different approaches of
which, depending on industriesor depending on, uh, various
challenges that might exist thatyou need this team.
I.
That can support it in differentlenses.
And so then you go back to thatdiscussion about billable
(34:17):
percentages and so forth.
If, if you need a team, then youneed bodies across that team
that can be able to act uponthat.
And that's not necessarilybillable work.
Right?
So I, I, I think that supportsthat argument really.
Becca Johns (34:30):
For sure.
Yep.
Mary Blanche (34:32):
All right.
I'm gonna switch gears a littlebit, shift gears, I should say
with this next question.
marketing plays a critical rolein the success of mergers and
acquisitions, but is often anafterthought or so.
Becca Johns (34:48):
I buy that one.
I definitely think they play acritical role.
and especially for firms thathaven't had a lot of m and a
activity.
They might not have figured outthat, that you need to be
including marketing in thoseconversations early on, like
even in the due diligence phase.
some, some firms have, like theinternal culture piece falls
under marketing, like internalcommunications.
(35:09):
Some firms it's separate.
But aside from that, justintegrating the branding, client
communications, um, looking atthose cross-selling
opportunities, getting all thedata into CRM, Yeah, not
involving marketing.
And that would, I think, be a, abig, big mistake.
Um,
Joe Pope (35:25):
have any,
Becca Johns (35:25):
I
Joe Pope (35:25):
do you have any horror stories that you've heard that
come to mind?
You don't have to name names,but any, uh, any circumstances.
Becca Johns (35:31):
I've heard of some strange branding decisions, um,
with mergers.
I'm not gonna name any names,but like, okay, let's, we're
gonna bring in, um, a merger inone of our markets and instead
of integrating under the wholefirm name, they might have a,
you know, operate under aseparate name for a couple
years.
And I think that just.
Adds client adds, adds confusionin the marketplace and confuses
(35:53):
the clients and just createsunnecessary confusion and, and
costs honestly.
Um, I'm sure there's other onesthat come that I could think of
if I had some more time.
But yeah, you know, it'simportant to involve marketing
and not make marketing andbranding decisions in a vacuum
without consulting those teams.
Austin McNair (36:13):
you mentioned that marketing could have a role
on like the due diligence sideeven before a merger or an
acquisition happens.
Could you, could we click onthat a little bit and and, and
hear a little bit more on whatyou, you know, what your
experience has been in that, orwhat you think marketing's
capabilities are there to add tothat conversation?
Becca Johns (36:31):
Yeah.
you know, at Ray, the duediligence process was really
like, at the end of it is, okay,are we comfortable moving
forward With this firm and froma marketing standpoint, there's
really not gonna be a lot thatwould say, well, you would say,
no, I don't think this is gonnabe a good fit.
You know, the firm leadershipdid their work to make sure that
they have good clients and, youknow, all of that.
(36:51):
but I think it's good to noticewhat you're walking into.
So you look at, um, anythingfrom, okay, what kind of
marketing materials do you havenow that we're gonna need to
create for you?
Do you have a strong website andsocial media presence that we
need to transition over time orcan we just flip the switch?
CRM, of course, does that needintegrated?
(37:12):
we always had a due diligencechecklist that was
Joe Pope (37:14):
Yeah.
Becca Johns (37:15):
the incoming firm, but there was one item that we'd
never put on the checklist and,that was firm, like their firm
leadership and their presence onsocial media.
You know, if.
I just had my team doing somesearches just to make sure that
no one was putting anythingcrazy out there online that
could come back to hurt us.
so again, we don't wanna, wedidn't wanna tell those firms
(37:35):
that we were looking at theirsocial media and, you know,
online presence, but I thinkthat is important to look at
just to make sure you know whatyou're buying, um, because if
that could hurt your firm'sreputation in the future, you
wanna know about that upfront?
Austin McNair (37:48):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I don't think I couldagree more.
And I, I think that, um,everything you walked through
there is, is I think it can be amissed opportunity, at least.
Again, I'm just thinking aboutsome of our experience and Joe,
maybe some of the horror storieswe've seen, um, not necessarily
in the accounting space, but inprofessional services more
broadly.
Those things get neglected andignored and, you know, deals are
(38:10):
done.
And then.
Oh man, the, the skeletons inthe closet start to pour out.
It's like, oh boy, I wish we hadhad, you know, maybe marketing
or PR or some other, you know,specialists like maybe dig into
some of this, uh, ahead of time.
Maybe could have saved someheadaches or things could have
been prepared more ahead oftime.
So this great perspective,Becca.
Becca Johns (38:32):
yeah.
It's important to understandlike what marketing activities
were important to the incomingfirm.
Um, like if they do an annualevent or something, for example,
for clients, you wanna make sureyou know that upfront so you can
plan for it, budget it, and alsojust meet, meet their
expectations.
you know, because it's, it's abig change for the firm that's,
that's being merged in and youjust wanna make sure that you're
(38:53):
giving them good service.
You know, considering like thatthey're my client, wanna give
them good service and make surethat you're meeting their
expectations and making it asmooth transition.
Mary Blanche (39:03):
all right, let's do this one.
Uh, buy or sell accountingmarketers are underappreciated
in their firms.
Becca Johns (39:13):
I'm gonna buy that one too.
Um, and again, with everythingI, I may have some caveats.
I think sometimes firm leadersdon't necessarily understand
what marketing is or what theyshould be expecting from them,
what they do every day.
So it's, it's then hard toappreciate that.
Um.
You know, when you think aboutlike the personality spectrum,
(39:35):
you can't get too different thanaccounting and marketing, like
just
Joe Pope (39:39):
Yeah.
Becca Johns (39:39):
types, the way the brain works.
Um, so I think it's up tomarketers to make sure that
they're communicating theirvalue and, you know, they're
sharing what they're doing and,and what that's doing to, for
the firm.
Um, you know, you can't, youcan't blame it all on the firm
leaders.
I think us marketers have totake some responsibility for
Joe Pope (39:58):
Sure.
Becca Johns (39:59):
but, you know, build those relationships, sign
those wins and make sure you'resharing them.
Mary Blanche (40:03):
If, if there was a, you know, if there was, um,
leadership on the moreaccounting side, listening to
this right now, what would belike one piece of advice that
you might give to them to helpmake the, you know, the
marketing side really feel thatthey, that they're appreciated?
Becca Johns (40:18):
I think it's really important to just really
understand what The function
Mary Blanche (40:24):
mm-hmm.
Becca Johns (40:24):
sure that you're communicating clear expectations
to your marketing team.
I think that's where there canbe a disconnect sometimes.
And, again, you know, we, wewould have partners sometimes
that would say like, oh, I don'treally understand that service
offering.
I don't know how to sell that tomy clients.
To me that's unacceptable.
And I feel like it's the samefor, you know, firm leaders not
(40:46):
understanding one of theirinternal operations.
Like, sure, you don't have tounderstand like how it does all
their stuff, but you need tounderstand how they support the
firm and how you can be usingthem.
And you know, the same goes forhuman resources, finance,
marketing, all of it.
You know, firm leaders reallyhave to understand what they're
managing and what they'releading.
and you know, I, I feel likewe're so lucky to have a
(41:09):
community like AIM where we canmeet other people like us.
And I think firm leaders need tobe intentional about building a
community of other firm leadersfor themselves so that they can
have conversations too aboutlike, what is, what is your
marketing doing?
Or What are you seeing in thisarea?
So they can, you know, it'ssometimes better when you, when
they hear it from someone on theoutside versus, um, on the
(41:30):
inside of the firm.
Mary Blanche (41:32):
Preach.
That's, that's great advice.
Yeah.
Joe Pope (41:35):
I'd, I'd like to, I'd like to kind of take MBS
question and go to the oppositeend.
So we've got, and you referencedAIM and, and, and I've
definitely met some awesomepeople at Summit specifically.
I know we've got that coming upvery shortly.
Uh, but you've got some of ourmore junior marketers folks who
maybe this is their second,third job and they're looking to
kind of find that pathway tobecome the next Becca Johns.
(41:56):
What are some of the ways thatyou would recommend that they
can advocate for themselves inaddition to potentially joining,
uh, a group like aim?
Becca Johns (42:04):
again, I feel like the, I feel like the best way
is, to kind of build your armyslowly, and of course that
includes outside of the firm,but inside the firm too.
it, it can be intimidating.
It can, it can be hard for a newmarketer if you're going to talk
to all these different partnersand try to prove your worth.
But if you have some small winswith a couple partners, you
know, you can get them on boardwith you and work with the
(42:26):
people that wanna work with youand that believe in what you're
doing and are excited to workwith you, and that can kind of
just snowball.
And those partners can advocatefor you too.
and I think it's also reallyimportant to have individual
conversations with partners.
Again, not only that are leadersin the firm, but just the
partners that you feel like youclick with.
(42:46):
about what issues they're seeingin the firm and how they think
you can help.
Um, you know, how can I help youbuild your practice?
you know, make sure that youhave a good understanding of
this firm's strategic plan.
And if the firm doesn't have astrategic plan, like make noise
about that until they have one.
Because you can't be successfulif there's no clear direction
for you to go in.
Joe Pope (43:07):
I hear, I hear you Becca.
And it's interesting, I, as youwere talking, I'm thinking to
myself across professionalservices, I think that advice
rings true in pretty much everyindustry.
Uh, you know, I'm thinking okaywith, uh, as somebody who's
coming up in the architecturalcommunity or working on a
construction organization,junior level or hearing those
pieces is.
I, it, I, that resonates.
(43:28):
That's the type of advice whichcan lead to somebody really
creating good advocacy behindtheir own career.
And I mean, one of the, ourgoals when we launched this
podcast was to speak todifferent folks at different
stages.
So I I, I appreciate youproviding that insight.
Austin McNair (43:42):
this has been such a great conversation.
I'm wondering if we, if Becca,you'd be up for a little bit of
a lightning round to kind ofround out our, our conversation.
Would you be up for, for alightning round?
Becca Johns (43:52):
Yep.
So I need to cut the commentaryis what you're saying?
Austin McNair (43:55):
No, no.
Give us, you know, still give usa little something.
Give us, we don't want you tosay Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maybe, maybe some shorter takes.
We'll get producer John here tothrow some lightning sounds in
here, some music and make Yeah,yeah, yeah.
We got a big special effectsbudget for this podcast.
Um, it's great.
Um, so yeah, why don't we do itlightning round, mb.
Mary Blanche (44:19):
All right, let's do it.
So Becca, accounting firmsshould organize their marketing
functions to focus on accountexpansion rather than new client
acquisition.
Becca Johns (44:31):
Oh, that.
I feel like it has to be abalance.
I don't know.
I don't know what the option isfor like both,
Mary Blanche (44:38):
What is the, what is the word for not, not buy or
sell?
Becca Johns (44:42):
Yeah.
Hold
Joe Pope (44:44):
Loan?
Becca Johns (44:46):
Yeah,
Mary Blanche (44:48):
Hundred percent.
All right.
Then moving to the next one,since this is a lightning round,
accounting firms should avoiddeveloping personal brands they
could eventually leave the firm.
Becca Johns (44:59):
So,
Mary Blanche (45:01):
All right.
Social media is the mostimportant channel for accounting
marketers,
Becca Johns (45:07):
So,
Joe Pope (45:08):
you, what would your, what would your thought be if
you had to name one right offthe top?
Becca Johns (45:13):
Oh gosh.
I don't know if I could namejust one off the top, but social
media wouldn't be, you know, if,if I had to cut something social
media, it's, you know, it's goodbrand awareness.
Um, it's good for employerbranding especially, but, um,
you know, that's not where themagic's happening,
Mary Blanche (45:29):
Cool.
All right.
I'm gonna keep it moving.
Uh, getting your team members tosupport marketing efforts is
easy peasy.
Becca Johns (45:36):
so.
Austin McNair (45:37):
Surprise.
I'm shocked that you said that.
Becca Johns (45:41):
yeah,
Austin McNair (45:41):
tell.
Can you tell us a little bitlike, okay, uh, why is it so
challenging?
Becca Johns (45:46):
it's, you know, for some people they've just never
done it.
Um, they think of marketing assales and, you know, for some
people that's scary.
you know, it's hard to get'emfrom out, from behind their
desks Sometimes.
They really are working withsome charge hour goals that they
need to hit.
Um, there's a, there's a milliondifferent reasons, but there
will be people that, you know.
(46:07):
That really shine at it and loveit.
And again, those are the peoplethat you should take from good
to Great.
Instead of trying to get peopleon the bus all the time,
Joe Pope (46:15):
good.
Mary Blanche (46:17):
That's a good one.
Liner.
I like that.
Austin McNair (46:19):
Yeah, mic drop.
Mary Blanche (46:21):
Yeah.
Joe Pope (46:21):
John Clip.
Mary Blanche (46:22):
Yeah.
Okay, last one.
Digital marketing can neverreplace the lead potential of
word of mouth referrals by orsell.
Becca Johns (46:33):
that.
I mean, you know, you, youwanna, you know, if, if there's
someone that's already vetted afirm or an offering for you, um,
you know, that takes a lot ofthe guesswork out.
so I think those referrals areimportant.
I do think as youngergenerations take power in, in
(46:53):
companies, we're gonna see thatshifting.
Um, you know, they are buyingmore online, but, um.
At least, at least for now.
Um, and I know it also kind oftakes a while to hit the Midwest
where I am.
So at least for now, word ofmouth is still really important.
Austin McNair (47:09):
All right.
Well, congratulations.
You made it through thelightning round and all the buy,
buy and sell questions.
That was great.
Um, well, Becca, I mean, wecan't thank you enough for
coming on the podcast again.
Um, I.
You've got so many greatinsights to share with us and so
much experience.
Where can people learn moreabout, um, what you're doing now
(47:29):
and, and, and if they wanted toget in touch with you, how would
they do that?
Becca Johns (47:33):
I, I think LinkedIn's the best
Austin McNair (47:34):
I.
Becca Johns (47:34):
now.
I'm still kind of building up mywebsite, but you can find me on
LinkedIn at Becca Johns.
Um, my email isbecca@beccajohns.com.
Um, I'm staying on top of myinbox a lot better these days.
So, um, I'd love, I'd love toconnect with anybody, um, and
just hear what's going on inyour firm and if even if there's
nothing I can help with, I stilljust love connecting with people
(47:55):
and, um, learning what's goingon.
Austin McNair (47:57):
Great.
Well, we will encourage all ofour listeners to go do that.
Go connect with Becca onLinkedIn, connect with, uh, Joe,
myself, and Mary Blanche aswell.
And if anyone has questionsabout our podcast, you can
always email us feedback,questions, concerns, comments,
all, all of the above.
At podcast, at hingemarketing.com.
(48:19):
Like the videos.
Subscribe, leave us a review.
All your feedback is reallyappreciated.
All of your support's reallyappreciated.
This has been another episode ofSpiraling Up again for Becca,
Joe, myself, Mary Blanche.
Thank you for listening, andwe'll see you on the next one.
Take care everybody.
Thank you.
in today's episode of Spiraling Up.
Did you log your time today?
No.
Really?
Did you log it?
Our team is gonna discuss whentime tracking helps and hurts,
and then we get to speak withBecca.
Johns a leading voice in theaccounting marketing space.
We're going to see if she buysor sells some of the hot takes
(00:22):
we hear for accountingmarketers.
Welcome everyone.
This is spiraling up with Hinge.
Welcome everyone to Spiraling Upthe podcast for professional
services marketers and businessleaders.
My name is Austin and I'm joinedwith my co-hosts, Mary Blanche.
(00:46):
How you doing MB
Mary Blanche (00:48):
Doing good.
Doing good.
Austin McNair (00:49):
and Joe Pope.
Joe, how are you doing today?
Joe Pope (00:52):
I am gonna say the same thing as Mary Blanc doing
pretty good.
Austin McNair (00:55):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Well, welcome to another episodeof Spiraling Up.
We have a lot to get going, uh,a lot to dig into today.
Um.
I can tell you that, I had anadventure, this weekend.
I'm, I'm glad to be back here inmy office.
but I wasn't sure if I was gonnamake it, because last night, my
(01:16):
family took a day trip, about anhour and a half south, uh, of
our city.
Not a, not a long road trip, butwe went to this like really cool
surf.
Wave Park.
It was like a wave garden.
It like produces waves.
You get to go surfing on it.
It was for my kids.
Awesome experience, but then onour way home, wouldn't you know
it, the car broke down, and ittook, you know, what, what was
(01:38):
supposed to be a 90 minutedrive?
Took my family of five, uh,three tow trucks and about 12
hours to get home.
So yeah, that was an adventureto have with two young children
and a newborn baby, pretty muchthree months old.
Uh, but hey, we made it and I'mexcited to be here.
Joe Pope (01:59):
three.
Right.
Three.
Three tow trucks.
Sounds like you set the record.
For most amount of times a carcould break down in one trip.
Austin McNair (02:08):
Yeah, well there's the tow truck that I had
to flag down on the side of thehighway, to take us to a gas
station.
then there was the tow truck toget us back to our actual house.
and then there was the tow truckto the mechanic.
Uh.
So, yeah, it's, yeah, it was, itwas a big adventure of tow
trucks and, uh, learning how tospeak Portuguese about with, you
(02:30):
know, about car parts andproblems.
Yeah, so much, so much goodstuff there.
Mary Blanche (02:36):
Core memory.
Joe Pope (02:37):
If you had to power rank the tow trucks, what, what
was the order, you know, wasthere a, was there a tow truck
that stood out?
Austin McNair (02:43):
Well, I, I, the, the tow truck that stood out was
the first one because you know,when, when you're getting in a
tow truck, I'm like, how arethey gonna fit, like three kids
and my wife and some of ourstuff?
Like,
Joe Pope (02:54):
Car
Austin McNair (02:54):
what, what does this actually look like?
Yeah.
No, no car seats, you know, uh,other than the baby, which she,
she was in one.
Um, but like we get into it, ofcourse.
Anxiety and fear levels were,were, were high.
And my wife is the primarycommunicator in Portuguese.
And I'm like, okay, so is hetaking us, you know, back to our
(03:15):
city, back to our house?
Where did you tell him to takeus?
She goes, uh, actually now thatI think about it, I don't think
I told him where we live at all.
And I'm like, well then where ishe taking us?
Uh, so that was fun.
Uh, he took us to a little gasstation where we got more help.
So.
it was, it was, uh, a little bitof a crazy journey.
(03:36):
Not as crazy of a journey as Ihope that I'm gonna be having
next week.
Guys, I'm really excited.
Uh, we're gonna be seeing eachother at the Association for
Accounting Marketing Conference,the, the Annual Summit mb, this
is gonna be your first timethere.
It's gonna be my first timethere.
What are you looking forward to?
Mary Blanche (03:56):
Honestly, I'm looking forward to the three of
us all being together andgetting to record a couple of
these in person together.
I
Joe Pope (04:03):
Yeah.
Mary Blanche (04:04):
a number of these under our belt, but this will be
the first time that we'rerecording a podcast.
All three in the same, sameroom, so I think that's gonna be
fun.
Bring some good energy to thatevent.
Joe Pope (04:14):
Yeah, it's exciting because we'll also have the
opportunity being in a livesetting to maybe pull a few
folks out of the crowd and jointhe discussion.
We've, we've got a few, uh, neatideas planned as a part of it.
And, uh, our producer, John'sactually gonna be there
separately on his, on his ownaccord.
So, uh, really good opportunityfor all of us together to, uh,
make some content magic.
Austin McNair (04:36):
Yeah.
I mean, and more than that, Imean, just spend time together
physically.
I mean, uh, I.
There's, you know, I, I thinkwe've all, especially our
company, and I'm, I'm sure a lotof people can relate to this,
but, Folks that work withcompanies with more remote work.
I mean, you do.
I I think we are entering like anew era now where it's like,
yeah, work from home.
We've realized that there's alot of benefits, especially in
(04:59):
terms of like focus andproductivity.
but especially when you've beenworking with some of your
colleagues for such a long time,as the three of us have, you do
kind of feel like, ah, it wouldbe nice to like actually see
each other, uh, in person again.
So I.
It's gonna be a long trip forme, but I'm, I'm really looking
forward to seeing you guys atthe conference.
I think we're gonna have a greattime together.
Joe Pope (05:19):
Likewise, man.
Austin McNair (05:21):
Alright, well let's get into this week's
pivotal story.
I know this one is gonna be, uh,a, a fun one and, uh, we've got
lots of opinions on it.
So mb why don't we turn to younow for the pivotal story.
Mary Blanche (05:35):
right guys.
I, I am excited about this one.
today's pivotal story, we'rediving into a topic that is
beloved by many in theprofessional services marketing
space.
Are you ready for it?
Time tracking.
I can already see the look ofthe stain on, on Joe's face
(05:56):
right now, but hang with me.
Okay.
so I saw this interestingLinkedIn post this week from
Jonathan Stark posing thequestion, believe every minute
should be billable?
when you think about it, ourworld revolves around time,
right?
So time is fundamental to how wemeasure costs and.
(06:18):
And value for our clients.
And, you know, so many of us, itfeels essential, but where do
draw the line and when does thisnecessity start to hinder
growth?
his post goes on to say, um, youknow, he suggests that being too
focused on billable hours forpricing could have unintended
consequences.
(06:39):
Does it discourage efficiency?
If it means less billable time,could it limit innovation?
So the core of our discussiontoday is when is time tracking a
vital tool and when might it beholding us back?
Austin McNair (06:53):
Oh boy.
Where do we start?
I mean, Joe, I know personallyyou love tracking your time,
don't you?
Mary Blanche (06:58):
Big fan.
Joe Pope (06:59):
It is pretty much the bane of my existence.
Somewhere, somewhere in therewith, uh, running out of, uh,
water in the middle of a pitch,meeting, after meeting like, you
know, 30 minute block meetingsafter each other.
It's somewhere in there istimekeeping.
Austin McNair (07:14):
I guess I'm more neutral on it.
I mean, I understand there's,and I know MB is not neutral on
it, so we're gonna get, we'regonna, I'll say, I'll give one
perspective.
Um, so.
One of the, one of the things Ido at Hinge with some of our
clients is that I work directlywith visible experts who are
trying to kind of, uh, bolstertheir visibility in the
(07:37):
marketplace and therefore bringmore visibility to their
companies.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I've had this discussion
where literally in the middle ofa group training or a one-on-one
training.
If the expert will stop and belike, wait, but am I allowed to
do this?
Like, am I allowed to spend moretime networking on on LinkedIn?
Am I allowed because.
(07:57):
Their leadership and whatthey're hearing kind of
reinforced to them veryregularly from their company and
leadership is about billableutilization and how if you're
not meeting certain thresholds,uh, of utilization, then that
has consequences for, you know,how the business is operating,
the health of the company andstuff.
But on the flip side of that,there's something.
(08:19):
There in regards to marketingand, and, and like, if these are
these non-billable activities,if you're gonna be asking the
experts to be more visible, tocontribute to thought leadership
content, that could be a realmixed message situation.
And I can tell you that most ofthe visible experts I talk to
feel like they're in between arock and a hard place there.
Not necessarily in terms of howthey log their time, but the
(08:40):
fact that the, that, that thetracking mechanism itself is
sort of.
It can be used against them to,you know, to measure like their
effectiveness or, you know, youknow how much they're
contributing.
Whereas, you know, contributingto marketing could be seen as,
oh, that's maybe more off to theside or more soft.
So I don't know.
That's, that's just at leastsome of what I've seen out
(09:01):
there.
And b, I know that you havestronger feelings about this.
Mary Blanche (09:04):
No, I mean, I, I hear that pain point for sure.
I mean, I think from where I sitas someone who's very focused on
our day-to-day businessoperations, tracking isn't just
about building our clients.
It's, it's absolutely essentialfor our business intelligence.
I.
'cause it provides the raw datathat we need to understand our
operational efficiency and tomake those informed strategic
(09:26):
decisions.
You can't make it without,without that data.
Uh, and if you know, if youthink about it without accurate
time tracking, how do we reallyknow where our resources are
being allocated?
I mean, we can, we can guess.
Sure, we can guess, but we can'tdefinitively analyze project
profitability.
It allows us to see which typesof projects are most efficient,
(09:47):
where we might be experiencingbottlenecks.
It's crucial for capacityplanning and ultimately to see.
Where we're generating the mostvalue for our clients.
and then when you look beyondthe individual projects, uh,
aggregated time data gives usinsights into the performance of
different service lines,different teams.
(10:08):
And then that's where you canstart identifying, okay, or we
need more training here, or, youknow, we need to improve this
process.
Over here to get us where we'regoing.
And then it allows us tobenchmark our performance over
time and check the impact of, ofthose changes that we're
implementing.
So, yeah, you know, I feelstrongly on this.
Um, it's, it's a non-negotiablefor me.
Joe Pope (10:29):
Right.
I mean, I, I hear all of theuseful arguments, uh, especially
the performance generated ones.
I think a lot of that makes a,a, a good portion of sense.
I I think part of the challengehere is that everybody's role is
different, right?
So let's, uh, from myperspective, I mean, one of the
bigger challenges is that, um,making the magic of a sale
(10:50):
happen is not something thatfits in a linear fashion, and
therefore it doesn't break.
it doesn't break neatly intovarious buckets.
Uh, I've constantly ran into thechallenges being somebody who is
focused in, in businessdevelopment and therefore very
limited in terms of billablework, if you wanna refer to it
in that form or fashion.
Uh, and so, you know, I thinkthere's been times where I've
(11:12):
worked at companies in the pastwhere they tried to break up
every single piece of a salescycle into a bucket, and I'd end
up with like these 20.
Tasks that I had supposedlyneeded to enter at the end of
the day, 10 minutes sendingemails, 20 minutes doing follow
up, 15 minutes doing proposals.
It's just a ludicrous action oflike the amount of time that
(11:33):
gets spent in something thatisn't going to be performance
based.
So I, that isn't necessarilyeven gonna be actionable.
Like, I don't think I ever saw areport telling me, uh, how it
maybe we could reduce ourproposal time and our e and
increase our email time 15% eachway.
So I, I, I hear it.
I, I think part of the challengehere is the complication that
people sometimes put around it,the amount of idea that, that,
(11:56):
okay, we can break all this downinto every nitty gritty detail.
And, and at that point, you'regonna start to lose folks like
myself who gets emails from MaryBlanc and her team about not
filling in my time sheet, uh, onregular occasions.
Austin McNair (12:12):
I know that I'm perfect at filling in my time
sheet.
Isn't that right?
Mb
Mary Blanche (12:16):
Honestly, Austin's Austin, you do a pretty good
job.
You, you, you hang in there withthe, with the best of them or,
Austin McNair (12:22):
I maybe not the best, but.
Mary Blanche (12:25):
maybe, maybe middle of the road we'll say.
We'll go with that.
That sounds good.
Joe Pope (12:29):
I was gonna say, I need an AI tool that just kind
of follows my brain around andlike jots it that, like, isn't
Elon working on that, thatNeuralink thing?
I know that's to like helppeople with like, have
challenges and need, uh,specific needs, but for, for
the.
We'll call it the 2.0 versionfor when, uh, all us with first
world problems, uh, needsomething.
(12:49):
I just, it can jot down where mybrain was going, uh, in one
moment or the next, and we canneatly put it into a time sheet.
Mary Blanche (12:55):
That's that that's the first problem that you would
like it to solve for you if youhad access to that kind
Joe Pope (13:00):
I acknowledge the true meaning of what that tool was
for.
It's, it's, it's to help peopleand then when those people have
been helped, it can help me domy time sheet.
Austin McNair (13:10):
I love that for you, Joe, and I think it'll
definitely get there, I'm sure.
so we're gonna, I.
Pivot now to, our interview withBecca Johns.
Becca is a friend of Hinge.
She is a huge influencer in thespace of accounting, marketing,
and we're gonna ask her forsome, if she's gonna buy or sell
some of these hot takes in theaccounting marketing space.
(13:33):
And I'm really curious.
What she thinks on this wholetopic of billable time,
utilization, time tracking.
So we'll make sure to ask her aquestion about that.
Uh, so let's turn now to ourepisode with Becca.
Did you guys know that contentcreation is the number one
marketing priority of highgrowth firms?
Mary Blanche (13:54):
Well, did you know that high growth firms spend
twice as much on their marketingthan their slower growing
competition?
Joe Pope (14:01):
I am about to blow all of your minds.
Did you know that high growthfirms have two times the number
of marketers per capitaemployee?
Austin McNair (14:10):
See, I think if we downloaded the new edition,
the latest edition, the 10thedition of the high Growth
study, we would all know thesethings.
would all the people listeningto this podcast.
So if you haven't done so yet,head over to hinge
marketing.com/high growth.
And there you can download thefree executive summary.
(14:32):
I.
On what we've learned about thefastest growing professional
services firms.
It's free, it's 40 pages.
Wrote a bunch of great analysisin there.
You're gonna learn whatmarketing techniques are working
for the fastest growingcompanies.
You absolutely want to pick itup if you haven't yet.
So go ahead and do that.
Hinge marketing.com/high growth.
(14:53):
Alright, so we, we'd like toWelcome to the podcast Becca
Johns.
Becca helps accounting andadvisory firms grow smarter,
backed by deep industryexperience, a practical point of
view and fresh perspective.
She is a consultant, strategist,and collaborator who
understands.
Your world and helps you moveforward.
(15:15):
She brings clarity to complexchallenges and energy and new
ideas.
Becca, we couldn't think of abetter person to have on the
podcast here to talk about theaccounting, marketing space.
How are you doing today?
Becca Johns (15:28):
I'm doing really good
Austin McNair (15:29):
I.
Becca Johns (15:30):
I was really excited when you invited me.
I was kind of gonna.
Light into your DMS at somepoint and ask if I can come on.
So I'm glad it didn't have tocome to that.
So thanks for having me.
Austin McNair (15:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, as I kind of outlined therein your introduction, um, you
are a seasoned accountingmarketing professional.
You were with your firm foralmost 20 years before just
recently taking the step tobeing more of an independent
consultant.
We'd love to know, just, youknow, as we're getting started,
like tell us about that bigstep.
What are you, what's next kindof in your, your career here in
(16:01):
your journey?
What are you, what are you gonnaget out of it?
Becca Johns (16:03):
Yeah.
Um, like you said, I just leftmy firm after almost 20 years,
um, and found the consultingpath.
Um, so I've been on my own forlike two and a half weeks and
I'm absolutely loving it.
Um, I'm working with a reallycool client right now, um, on
some marketing and strategiccommunications.
Um, programs and plans relatedto some significant m and a
(16:25):
activity that they have.
and it's really cool to be ableto like, develop the strategy
and also have my hands in theexecution, which is
Joe Pope (16:33):
Yeah.
Becca Johns (16:34):
I was missing.
Um, and I'm really lookingforward to working with a
variety of different firms andkind of having that little bit
more variety in my day to dayversus working for, for one firm
for so long.
You know, it was just time forsomething fresh and, and new and
I'm really excited.
Joe Pope (16:48):
Our, our colleague Will, Casserly likes to say in
his intros that the agency guysgot to have all the fun.
And, uh, he was somebody who haddone in-house work for, I think
three, three decades and, uh,made that switch over to come
join us.
But I, I think having heard howyou just described that Becca,
that that was the, immediately,the phrase that came to mind,
this idea that you really kindaget to pick and choose now.
(17:10):
How you get to work through someof these different challenges
and the excitement of gettingto, uh, work with a diverse
group.
Uh, so I, you know, one otherthing, Becca, I think that's
awesome is, uh, yourrelationship with Hinge goes
back a few years as well.
Uh, I know specifically with theAssociation of Accounting
Marketers, Is there more on thehorizon there for you as well,
uh, and as you launched thisinitiative?
Becca Johns (17:31):
yeah, of course I'm, I'm serving on a lot of
different committees, for aimand we'll continue to do that.
I'll be at the summit in acouple weeks, um, and looking
forward to connecting witheveryone there.
but yeah, AIM is, aim is a greatresource and, it's really nice
that it connects members withorganizations like Hinge, for
the resources that you offer andkind of helps get your expertise
(17:51):
and knowledge in front of ustoo.
so yeah, big fan of aim.
Big fan of Hinge.
I love it.
Austin McNair (17:57):
Well, yeah, you, I think with, with all this
experience you have, Becca, likewe said, we, um, you know,
really wanted to have a, a, anepisode here that was centered
around the accounting, marketingspace.
So many of the people that wetalk to, a lot of our clients,
they are, you know, in theaccounting or consulting space,
advisory space.
Um, and we really wanted tobring together some.
(18:18):
Some questions for you in termsof what's going on in that
world.
So, um, we'd like to play a gamewith you and it's called Buy or
Sell.
So very simple.
Essentially.
Uh, we're gonna give you aseries of statements about the
world of accounting, marketing.
Some of them may be more on thecontroversial side than others.
(18:40):
And really we just want to hearfrom you.
Do you buy this statement?
Meaning you think that it's trueor do you sell it?
Meaning now that's, that's notreally true.
Or, uh, there's, you know, a lotof caveats there.
We want to hear kind of, youknow, your perspectives on all
this.
So, yeah, honest reactions, yourreasoning behind them.
buy or sell.
This is the accounting marketingedition of Buy or Sell, so we're
(19:01):
super excited about it.
Mary Blanche, do you want tokick us off with kind of our,
our buyer sell SEC section?
Mary Blanche (19:08):
Let's do it.
All right.
Here's a good one to get usstarted.
So, Becca, buy or sell, firmsare too risk averse in their
marketing
Becca Johns (19:20):
Bye
Mary Blanche (19:21):
buying it.
She's
Becca Johns (19:23):
yeah, I think, um, especially if, if budget is a
concern and your budget istight.
it can be hard and, and I don'tknow if it's the accounting firm
or the marketers or, you know, acombination, but, um, I think we
can definitely be a little bit,more.
Adventurous.
and I've always admired thesmaller firms because they're so
(19:44):
much more agile and nimble Andthey can just try things easier
without having to get like, youknow, through all the red tape.
so I know that can contend toslow things down.
But yeah, I would love to seethe profession, adding a little
bit of edge to it.
Austin McNair (19:57):
You, you brought up budgeting, so I wanted to
just kind of throw in some datahere.
Um, so in both of our recenthigh growth study on accounting
firms.
And in the AIM study that'scoming out, we've seen that the
percentage of revenue dedicatedto marketing in the accounting
space has actually gone down.
(20:18):
it, it looks like during thepandemic time, it looks like
maybe accounting marketers weregiven a little bit more extra
marketing dollars to kind ofadjust sort things out, maybe
take a little bit more risk.
But since then we've just seen.
Continued pullbacks.
I'm wondering has that been yourexperience?
Has that been the, theexperience of your peers when
(20:39):
you've had conversations withthem in terms of the risk
adverseness and budgeting thatyou were mentioning?
I'd love to hear a little bitmore detail there.
Becca Johns (20:46):
Yeah, I think I saw some of that, at my firm and
with others, but I also seefirms that are, you know, still
making investments in brandingin technology, whether that's a
CRM or marketing automation.
I.
So I don't know if I'd sayacross the board, but sometimes
if you are making those biggerinvestments, you know, you do
have to cut back in other areas.
(21:07):
Um, so I think it's just reallyimportant to be strategic with
your budgets and, you know,think about are you getting the
results that you want from them?
And then also like making thecase to firm leadership about,
you know, this is why we'redoing it.
This is how this ties back tothe firm's strategic plan.
This is how it impacts sales.
Um, and make sure that you canmake that case for yourself.
And then if you feel like it'ssomething worth keeping in the
(21:28):
budget or worth investing in,that you can sell that.
Austin McNair (21:31):
How about when it comes to like, um, being risk
adverse in terms of, the kindsof marketing that goes on at a
company or maybe the, the, um,you know, some of the techniques
that are invested in like, I.
We've had experiences workingwith some of our clients in the
space where there's a little bitof an apprehension to, do things
like video or invest more intothings that are maybe more of
(21:53):
the top of the marketing funnel,more brand awareness, like as
you mentioned, there might besome sensitivity there to like
marketers feeling like they needto, to show ROI and demonstrate
everything and sometimes.
making investments in thingslike a new brand video or a new
website, those can feel kind oflike softer marketing
initiatives have to take place.
(22:14):
Like, do you feel like that thatcontinues to be a big sticking
point in the space as well?
Like in terms of being riskadverse?
Yeah.
Becca Johns (22:19):
Yeah.
I do.
Um, I think, you know,especially things that are, if
you're just doing like some topof the funnel email campaigns
and you already have thesoftware, all that really takes
is time to develop it.
But for firm leadership, liketime is literally money.
Um, I've had a sticky note on mybulletin board for probably 20
years that says my competitionis the billable hour.
(22:42):
And like really important toremember that like you can just
say, oh, it's not gonna cost usanything, but they think, oh,
that's costing your teams timeto build that.
Um, and the, those brandingactivities are really important
to do, but those are the hardestto show ROI on because
Joe Pope (22:57):
Mm-hmm.
Becca Johns (22:58):
isn't gonna be like, oh yeah, we're gonna get a
new client out of that activity.
But it's just getting the nameout there and the awareness,
which are really important todo.
Those can cost money, especiallyif you're doing something like
video or a new website like youmentioned, the ROI is so
abstract.
It's, unless you're, unlessyou're doing an awareness survey
before and after, you know,there's really no way to measure
(23:19):
how effective it was.
so there has to be a level oftrust there with your marketing
team to, be able to not only trythings and.
Also be able to measure whetherthey're successful.
And sometimes that's just a gutreaction.
You know, is that worth our timeand the money that we're
spending on it?
do we think we're reaching theright people?
so I think you have to be kindof honest with yourself too, and
(23:40):
be willing to make those harddecisions where it's like, yeah,
that's fun to do.
I like doing that, but it's, wecould probably be spending that
time or those dollars better.
Mary Blanche (23:48):
Becca, I think you just made the perfect segue into
our, uh, second Buy or.
Sell.
Uh, so I'm going for it.
Buy or sell.
It is impossible to accuratelymeasure the ROI of marketing for
accounting firms.
Becca Johns (24:04):
Impossible.
I think I'm gonna sell that one.
you know, I think you canmeasure ROI, again, it's not
always like this.
event got us X dollars inrevenue.
but I know a lot of firms arestarting to measure marketing
influenced revenue where itmight not say, you know, we
landed this client because theyattended this event, but when
(24:26):
you look at a new client thatyou acquired, what were the
marketing touches that they hadbefore that?
and so, you know, imposs, is itimpossible?
No.
That you can measure certainthings.
but I also don't think that youshould rely solely on.
Solely on those ROI metrics.
Joe Pope (24:41):
we actually pulled that one specifically from doing
some search online where peopleare just complaining and talking
towards some of thesechallenges.
And actually, ROI has been areoccurring topic on this
podcast already, a coupleepisodes.
And you referenced thosemulti-touch pieces though,
right?
And that it may not necessarilyinvolve dollars at the end of
the day if we're talking aboutour return.
(25:02):
What are some of those metricsthough, that come to mind?
Like so, If we're talkingtouches, what are some of
example touches where, you getfrom point A to point B, CD and
you end up with a new client orreoccurring revenue?
Talk about some of thosedifferent, uh, ways that we can
measure.
Becca Johns (25:19):
Yeah.
Um, you know, depending on whatyour tech stack looks like, um,
you know, let's assume you havea CRM and a marketing automation
platform and you can tracksomeone's user journey through
the website.
you know, for, for us at Ray,even if someone, you know, if
someone filled out the contactform on our website, and even if
they said they were referred byanother client or a center of
influence, you know, we stillcounted that as a website lead.
(25:41):
Because they came to our websiteto validate that.
Like, yes,
Joe Pope (25:45):
Amen.
Becca Johns (25:45):
I wanna work with that I trust.
so, you know, you can tracktheir user journey through the
site that led them to thatcontact form.
you can look at the emails thatyou've sent them, the marketing
emails that you've sent them,what they've opened, what
they've clicked on, that kind ofthing.
So if you're looking at thatlike individual level,
definitely relying on the techstack and the kind of the creepy
(26:06):
stuff that we're looking atbehind the scenes.
my firm also used Intro Hive, sowe could look at, you know, how
sticky the relationship was at acompany.
Um, how many contacts did wehave?
How recent is, are thoseinteractions?
and you can look at your topclients and see like, okay, we
haven't been touching thisclient recently.
(26:26):
Like we need to make sure thatsomeone's.
Consistently in contact withthem.
Joe Pope (26:30):
and with your organization kind of being, not
with, with Ray being, you know,in an organization that isn't
near your top 20, top 30 ofaccounting firms, but it's still
of a decent size and making thattype of investment.
you see a benefit fororganizations that maybe even
smaller than Ray and potentiallystarting to go down that avenue
and, how do you kind of makethat.
Argument to, uh, to leadershipin making those types of
(26:51):
investments.
Becca Johns (26:53):
Yeah, for sure.
you know, for me, CRM, itstarted off at Ray as a
marketing tool, but over theyears it definitely became just
like, this is something we needto operate the business.
You know, all new clients wereset up that way.
and I honestly think as thesmaller firms, like I mentioned
earlier, they're more agile,they're more nimble, and it
would be easier to set up a CRMsystem and keep the data
consistent and clean when youare smaller, versus, you know, a
(27:17):
bigger firm trying to make senseof all of that.
I think it's just easier toevolve the software with the
firm as it's growing andchanging.
and yeah, I feel like marketingautomation, if you're doing any
kind of content marketing,thought leadership, which you
should be.
you know, marketing automation,I feel like is, a necessity too.
Austin McNair (27:35):
One thing that was interesting from our recent
high growth study data, out ofall the industries we studied,
the accounting and financialservices industry was the worst
when they talked about,capturing and using marketing
and BD metrics, it was kind of asurprise to us because, I mean,
we, we know so many accountingmarketers who super sharp and we
know there's like a pretty high.
(27:56):
Utilization of these marketingtechnology tools in the
accounting space yet, like when,and, and we're trying to figure
out like, are accountingmarketers just being more hard
on themselves than maybe likeconsultants might be or
engineers might be.
but like out of everybody thatwe asked, they were like, yeah,
we're, we're not proficient yetin capturing and using the data.
(28:17):
I, I'm wondering what you kindof would make of that kind of
data finding.
Does that.
Seem reasonable to you?
Is that kind of track with someof your conversations with your
peers?
knowing there's a lot ofchallenges there, but there's
definitely this feeling thatpeople feel like there's still a
lot of room to grow here.
Becca Johns (28:33):
I would wonder if that's just because it's hard to
get.
partners in the firm to actuallyadopt the technology and use it.
You know, you have the CRM, butunless they're putting their.
Updating their pipeline, keepingtheir contacts in there, keeping
them updated.
Like there's only, there's onlyso much we can do.
and again, our competition isthe billable hours.
(28:53):
And I literally had a partnersay to me once, like, do you
want me to be out selling or doyou want me to be updating CRM?
And I was like, well, I want youto do both.
but you know, find an admin toupdate it for you if you don't
have the time to do it.
But that is their mindset.
It's like I could either beservicing my clients or.
Developing new business insteadof spending time in this tool.
And you know, of course the moreyou use it, it just, it becomes
(29:14):
easier and easier.
But, that is the mindset thatthey have.
And so I would, I would imaginethat that's kind of where that,
that level of detail that yousaw in the responses is that
it's just like, yeah, we havethe software and we would love
to use it more, but we justdon't have because we can't
force people to use it.
Mary Blanche (29:31):
Okay, so I love this for us because you just
gave us a really good segue intoour.
Next buy yourself question.
Becca Johns (29:37):
it.
Mary Blanche (29:38):
We we're just keep going.
Joe Pope (29:39):
we did not, we did not give Becca the prompts be.
Mary Blanche (29:45):
Alright.
Buy or sell.
The expert practitioners withinyour firm should spend no less
than 90% of their time onbillable work.
Becca Johns (29:56):
Oh, sell.
They need to be spec.
I mean, billable work isimportant of course, but 90% is,
I feel like that's a reallyunrealistic target to hit, um,
to be 90% billable.
when you think about all theother things that we're asking
them to do, you know, developingteam members that are below
them.
developing new business, meetingwith referral sources and
(30:17):
centers of influence, you know,all the administrative stuff,
CRM, that kind of thing.
I think 90% is, prettyunattainable.
Mary Blanche (30:25):
Outta curiosity, what is, what is a more, um,
split between billable andnon-billable?
Becca Johns (30:33):
Um, I don't
Mary Blanche (30:34):
Um.
Becca Johns (30:34):
I, if I have a number.
I think it really depends on theperson and what their strengths
are.
You know, if you have someonethat just wants to be heads down
and doing client work, maybe itis closer to 90%.
But if you have someone, againthat's like a mentor to younger
staff in the team, or that isreally proficient at business
development and has a lot ofstrong relationships that you
(30:55):
want to be out in the community,theirs would be lower.
So I don't know if there's likea one size fits all.
I think it should be flexibleenough to like.
How can we best utilize thisperson's skill sets?
And maybe if it's just crankingout tax returns, that's great.
But, you know, there werepartners at Ray that didn't have
their own book of business.
They were just responsible for,you know, client relationships,
(31:17):
client satisfaction, bringing innew work.
so their billable target wasobviously much, much lower.
Mary Blanche (31:23):
Is that something that's like typically talked
about?
Like, well, I do have a lot ofbusiness development, so you
know, I'm really gonna betargeting more around 50%.
Or is it really just it is whatit is based on, like you were
saying, that specific person'skind of responsibilities.
Becca Johns (31:39):
I think a lot of firms have like a scorecard that
they use when they're thinkingabout at least the partner
compensation.
Um.
Maybe the billable hours is partof it, but I don't think it
should be the biggest part.
I think you need to look at whatyou're trying to accomplish as a
firm and are the partnerssupporting that?
are they meeting the targetsthat have been set for them?
I know a lot of firms havepartner plans that might spell
(32:01):
out what is expected of eachindividual partner for the year,
and I'm sure billable hours is.
Part of that.
but I think it can get dangerousif you say you need to hit this
billable hour threshold.
That's like, okay, well I'mgonna review this tax return
because I need some billablehours this week.
Whereas you should really bepushing that work down.
so I think, you know, I thinkthere's ways to fudge that.
(32:22):
And I think if you, if you setthe billable hour target too
high, you might just get peopledoing work that's actually below
their level just because they'retrying to hit the number.
So yeah, I would say be flexibleand.
kind of tailor it to eachperson.
Joe Pope (32:36):
So as a, um, you know, coming outta Ray and where you
had that role as a, as amarketing leader and being so
focused on how to incorporategrowth strategies into that, you
referenced a scorecard, but whatare some of the other ways of
which you, I.
Either used a scorecard ormeeting processes or, just
looking across the field ofpotential folks who can be a
(32:56):
part of the BD team, if youwill, and identify them and,
and, select them and put theminto the right positions.
What were some of the ways thatyou went about that Becca?
Becca Johns (33:05):
Um, so the, well, the first thing that comes to
mind is, you know, we went tomarket by industry.
So we built out the industryteams and obviously each team
had a leader, that had to haveknowledge in the industry,
leadership skills, capacity totake on this kind of thing.
then building, you know, basedon what that industry group was
trying to accomplish, they builttheir teams with people that
(33:29):
could help them accomplish that.
So, for example, not-for-profitwas a lot harder to cross sell
to existing clients.
Joe Pope (33:36):
Yeah.
Becca Johns (33:37):
developers involved who could help bring in new
clients.
manufacturing and construction,we have a lot of advisory
services that.
We could offer to those clients.
So that was, we had more of across-selling approach to those.
so again, you kind of have tolook at what the strategic
objective is and then fill in,fill in everything to support
that.
Joe Pope (33:57):
And I, and I hear you describing this, and the only
thing that can come to mind isthe death of the rainmaker,
right?
Because you're discussingmultiple different approaches of
which, depending on industriesor depending on, uh, various
challenges that might exist thatyou need this team.
I.
That can support it in differentlenses.
And so then you go back to thatdiscussion about billable
(34:17):
percentages and so forth.
If, if you need a team, then youneed bodies across that team
that can be able to act uponthat.
And that's not necessarilybillable work.
Right?
So I, I, I think that supportsthat argument really.
Becca Johns (34:30):
For sure.
Yep.
Mary Blanche (34:32):
All right.
I'm gonna switch gears a littlebit, shift gears, I should say
with this next question.
marketing plays a critical rolein the success of mergers and
acquisitions, but is often anafterthought or so.
Becca Johns (34:48):
I buy that one.
I definitely think they play acritical role.
and especially for firms thathaven't had a lot of m and a
activity.
They might not have figured outthat, that you need to be
including marketing in thoseconversations early on, like
even in the due diligence phase.
some, some firms have, like theinternal culture piece falls
under marketing, like internalcommunications.
(35:09):
Some firms it's separate.
But aside from that, justintegrating the branding, client
communications, um, looking atthose cross-selling
opportunities, getting all thedata into CRM, Yeah, not
involving marketing.
And that would, I think, be a, abig, big mistake.
Um,
Joe Pope (35:25):
have any,
Becca Johns (35:25):
I
Joe Pope (35:25):
do you have any horror stories that you've heard that
come to mind?
You don't have to name names,but any, uh, any circumstances.
Becca Johns (35:31):
I've heard of some strange branding decisions, um,
with mergers.
I'm not gonna name any names,but like, okay, let's, we're
gonna bring in, um, a merger inone of our markets and instead
of integrating under the wholefirm name, they might have a,
you know, operate under aseparate name for a couple
years.
And I think that just.
Adds client adds, adds confusionin the marketplace and confuses
(35:53):
the clients and just createsunnecessary confusion and, and
costs honestly.
Um, I'm sure there's other onesthat come that I could think of
if I had some more time.
But yeah, you know, it'simportant to involve marketing
and not make marketing andbranding decisions in a vacuum
without consulting those teams.
Austin McNair (36:13):
you mentioned that marketing could have a role
on like the due diligence sideeven before a merger or an
acquisition happens.
Could you, could we click onthat a little bit and and, and
hear a little bit more on whatyou, you know, what your
experience has been in that, orwhat you think marketing's
capabilities are there to add tothat conversation?
Becca Johns (36:31):
Yeah.
you know, at Ray, the duediligence process was really
like, at the end of it is, okay,are we comfortable moving
forward With this firm and froma marketing standpoint, there's
really not gonna be a lot thatwould say, well, you would say,
no, I don't think this is gonnabe a good fit.
You know, the firm leadershipdid their work to make sure that
they have good clients and, youknow, all of that.
(36:51):
but I think it's good to noticewhat you're walking into.
So you look at, um, anythingfrom, okay, what kind of
marketing materials do you havenow that we're gonna need to
create for you?
Do you have a strong website andsocial media presence that we
need to transition over time orcan we just flip the switch?
CRM, of course, does that needintegrated?
(37:12):
we always had a due diligencechecklist that was
Joe Pope (37:14):
Yeah.
Becca Johns (37:15):
the incoming firm, but there was one item that we'd
never put on the checklist and,that was firm, like their firm
leadership and their presence onsocial media.
You know, if.
I just had my team doing somesearches just to make sure that
no one was putting anythingcrazy out there online that
could come back to hurt us.
so again, we don't wanna, wedidn't wanna tell those firms
(37:35):
that we were looking at theirsocial media and, you know,
online presence, but I thinkthat is important to look at
just to make sure you know whatyou're buying, um, because if
that could hurt your firm'sreputation in the future, you
wanna know about that upfront?
Austin McNair (37:48):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I don't think I couldagree more.
And I, I think that, um,everything you walked through
there is, is I think it can be amissed opportunity, at least.
Again, I'm just thinking aboutsome of our experience and Joe,
maybe some of the horror storieswe've seen, um, not necessarily
in the accounting space, but inprofessional services more
broadly.
Those things get neglected andignored and, you know, deals are
(38:10):
done.
And then.
Oh man, the, the skeletons inthe closet start to pour out.
It's like, oh boy, I wish we hadhad, you know, maybe marketing
or PR or some other, you know,specialists like maybe dig into
some of this, uh, ahead of time.
Maybe could have saved someheadaches or things could have
been prepared more ahead oftime.
So this great perspective,Becca.
Becca Johns (38:32):
yeah.
It's important to understandlike what marketing activities
were important to the incomingfirm.
Um, like if they do an annualevent or something, for example,
for clients, you wanna make sureyou know that upfront so you can
plan for it, budget it, and alsojust meet, meet their
expectations.
you know, because it's, it's abig change for the firm that's,
that's being merged in and youjust wanna make sure that you're
(38:53):
giving them good service.
You know, considering like thatthey're my client, wanna give
them good service and make surethat you're meeting their
expectations and making it asmooth transition.
Mary Blanche (39:03):
all right, let's do this one.
Uh, buy or sell accountingmarketers are underappreciated
in their firms.
Becca Johns (39:13):
I'm gonna buy that one too.
Um, and again, with everythingI, I may have some caveats.
I think sometimes firm leadersdon't necessarily understand
what marketing is or what theyshould be expecting from them,
what they do every day.
So it's, it's then hard toappreciate that.
Um.
You know, when you think aboutlike the personality spectrum,
(39:35):
you can't get too different thanaccounting and marketing, like
just
Joe Pope (39:39):
Yeah.
Becca Johns (39:39):
types, the way the brain works.
Um, so I think it's up tomarketers to make sure that
they're communicating theirvalue and, you know, they're
sharing what they're doing and,and what that's doing to, for
the firm.
Um, you know, you can't, youcan't blame it all on the firm
leaders.
I think us marketers have totake some responsibility for
Joe Pope (39:58):
Sure.
Becca Johns (39:59):
but, you know, build those relationships, sign
those wins and make sure you'resharing them.
Mary Blanche (40:03):
If, if there was a, you know, if there was, um,
leadership on the moreaccounting side, listening to
this right now, what would belike one piece of advice that
you might give to them to helpmake the, you know, the
marketing side really feel thatthey, that they're appreciated?
Becca Johns (40:18):
I think it's really important to just really
understand what The function
Mary Blanche (40:24):
mm-hmm.
Becca Johns (40:24):
sure that you're communicating clear expectations
to your marketing team.
I think that's where there canbe a disconnect sometimes.
And, again, you know, we, wewould have partners sometimes
that would say like, oh, I don'treally understand that service
offering.
I don't know how to sell that tomy clients.
To me that's unacceptable.
And I feel like it's the samefor, you know, firm leaders not
(40:46):
understanding one of theirinternal operations.
Like, sure, you don't have tounderstand like how it does all
their stuff, but you need tounderstand how they support the
firm and how you can be usingthem.
And you know, the same goes forhuman resources, finance,
marketing, all of it.
You know, firm leaders reallyhave to understand what they're
managing and what they'releading.
and you know, I, I feel likewe're so lucky to have a
(41:09):
community like AIM where we canmeet other people like us.
And I think firm leaders need tobe intentional about building a
community of other firm leadersfor themselves so that they can
have conversations too aboutlike, what is, what is your
marketing doing?
Or What are you seeing in thisarea?
So they can, you know, it'ssometimes better when you, when
they hear it from someone on theoutside versus, um, on the
(41:30):
inside of the firm.
Mary Blanche (41:32):
Preach.
That's, that's great advice.
Yeah.
Joe Pope (41:35):
I'd, I'd like to, I'd like to kind of take MBS
question and go to the oppositeend.
So we've got, and you referencedAIM and, and, and I've
definitely met some awesomepeople at Summit specifically.
I know we've got that coming upvery shortly.
Uh, but you've got some of ourmore junior marketers folks who
maybe this is their second,third job and they're looking to
kind of find that pathway tobecome the next Becca Johns.
(41:56):
What are some of the ways thatyou would recommend that they
can advocate for themselves inaddition to potentially joining,
uh, a group like aim?
Becca Johns (42:04):
again, I feel like the, I feel like the best way
is, to kind of build your armyslowly, and of course that
includes outside of the firm,but inside the firm too.
it, it can be intimidating.
It can, it can be hard for a newmarketer if you're going to talk
to all these different partnersand try to prove your worth.
But if you have some small winswith a couple partners, you
know, you can get them on boardwith you and work with the
(42:26):
people that wanna work with youand that believe in what you're
doing and are excited to workwith you, and that can kind of
just snowball.
And those partners can advocatefor you too.
and I think it's also reallyimportant to have individual
conversations with partners.
Again, not only that are leadersin the firm, but just the
partners that you feel like youclick with.
(42:46):
about what issues they're seeingin the firm and how they think
you can help.
Um, you know, how can I help youbuild your practice?
you know, make sure that youhave a good understanding of
this firm's strategic plan.
And if the firm doesn't have astrategic plan, like make noise
about that until they have one.
Because you can't be successfulif there's no clear direction
for you to go in.
Joe Pope (43:07):
I hear, I hear you Becca.
And it's interesting, I, as youwere talking, I'm thinking to
myself across professionalservices, I think that advice
rings true in pretty much everyindustry.
Uh, you know, I'm thinking okaywith, uh, as somebody who's
coming up in the architecturalcommunity or working on a
construction organization,junior level or hearing those
pieces is.
I, it, I, that resonates.
(43:28):
That's the type of advice whichcan lead to somebody really
creating good advocacy behindtheir own career.
And I mean, one of the, ourgoals when we launched this
podcast was to speak todifferent folks at different
stages.
So I I, I appreciate youproviding that insight.
Austin McNair (43:42):
this has been such a great conversation.
I'm wondering if we, if Becca,you'd be up for a little bit of
a lightning round to kind ofround out our, our conversation.
Would you be up for, for alightning round?
Becca Johns (43:52):
Yep.
So I need to cut the commentaryis what you're saying?
Austin McNair (43:55):
No, no.
Give us, you know, still give usa little something.
Give us, we don't want you tosay Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maybe, maybe some shorter takes.
We'll get producer John here tothrow some lightning sounds in
here, some music and make Yeah,yeah, yeah.
We got a big special effectsbudget for this podcast.
Um, it's great.
Um, so yeah, why don't we do itlightning round, mb.
Mary Blanche (44:19):
All right, let's do it.
So Becca, accounting firmsshould organize their marketing
functions to focus on accountexpansion rather than new client
acquisition.
Becca Johns (44:31):
Oh, that.
I feel like it has to be abalance.
I don't know.
I don't know what the option isfor like both,
Mary Blanche (44:38):
What is the, what is the word for not, not buy or
sell?
Becca Johns (44:42):
Yeah.
Hold
Joe Pope (44:44):
Loan?
Becca Johns (44:46):
Yeah,
Mary Blanche (44:48):
Hundred percent.
All right.
Then moving to the next one,since this is a lightning round,
accounting firms should avoiddeveloping personal brands they
could eventually leave the firm.
Becca Johns (44:59):
So,
Mary Blanche (45:01):
All right.
Social media is the mostimportant channel for accounting
marketers,
Becca Johns (45:07):
So,
Joe Pope (45:08):
you, what would your, what would your thought be if
you had to name one right offthe top?
Becca Johns (45:13):
Oh gosh.
I don't know if I could namejust one off the top, but social
media wouldn't be, you know, if,if I had to cut something social
media, it's, you know, it's goodbrand awareness.
Um, it's good for employerbranding especially, but, um,
you know, that's not where themagic's happening,
Mary Blanche (45:29):
Cool.
All right.
I'm gonna keep it moving.
Uh, getting your team members tosupport marketing efforts is
easy peasy.
Becca Johns (45:36):
so.
Austin McNair (45:37):
Surprise.
I'm shocked that you said that.
Becca Johns (45:41):
yeah,
Austin McNair (45:41):
tell.
Can you tell us a little bitlike, okay, uh, why is it so
challenging?
Becca Johns (45:46):
it's, you know, for some people they've just never
done it.
Um, they think of marketing assales and, you know, for some
people that's scary.
you know, it's hard to get'emfrom out, from behind their
desks Sometimes.
They really are working withsome charge hour goals that they
need to hit.
Um, there's a, there's a milliondifferent reasons, but there
will be people that, you know.
(46:07):
That really shine at it and loveit.
And again, those are the peoplethat you should take from good
to Great.
Instead of trying to get peopleon the bus all the time,
Joe Pope (46:15):
good.
Mary Blanche (46:17):
That's a good one.
Liner.
I like that.
Austin McNair (46:19):
Yeah, mic drop.
Mary Blanche (46:21):
Yeah.
Joe Pope (46:21):
John Clip.
Mary Blanche (46:22):
Yeah.
Okay, last one.
Digital marketing can neverreplace the lead potential of
word of mouth referrals by orsell.
Becca Johns (46:33):
that.
I mean, you know, you, youwanna, you know, if, if there's
someone that's already vetted afirm or an offering for you, um,
you know, that takes a lot ofthe guesswork out.
so I think those referrals areimportant.
I do think as youngergenerations take power in, in
(46:53):
companies, we're gonna see thatshifting.
Um, you know, they are buyingmore online, but, um.
At least, at least for now.
Um, and I know it also kind oftakes a while to hit the Midwest
where I am.
So at least for now, word ofmouth is still really important.
Austin McNair (47:09):
All right.
Well, congratulations.
You made it through thelightning round and all the buy,
buy and sell questions.
That was great.
Um, well, Becca, I mean, wecan't thank you enough for
coming on the podcast again.
Um, I.
You've got so many greatinsights to share with us and so
much experience.
Where can people learn moreabout, um, what you're doing now
(47:29):
and, and, and if they wanted toget in touch with you, how would
they do that?
Becca Johns (47:33):
I, I think LinkedIn's the best
Austin McNair (47:34):
I.
Becca Johns (47:34):
now.
I'm still kind of building up mywebsite, but you can find me on
LinkedIn at Becca Johns.
Um, my email isbecca@beccajohns.com.
Um, I'm staying on top of myinbox a lot better these days.
So, um, I'd love, I'd love toconnect with anybody, um, and
just hear what's going on inyour firm and if even if there's
nothing I can help with, I stilljust love connecting with people
(47:55):
and, um, learning what's goingon.
Austin McNair (47:57):
Great.
Well, we will encourage all ofour listeners to go do that.
Go connect with Becca onLinkedIn, connect with, uh, Joe,
myself, and Mary Blanche aswell.
And if anyone has questionsabout our podcast, you can
always email us feedback,questions, concerns, comments,
all, all of the above.
At podcast, at hingemarketing.com.
(48:19):
Like the videos.
Subscribe, leave us a review.
All your feedback is reallyappreciated.
All of your support's reallyappreciated.
This has been another episode ofSpiraling Up again for Becca,
Joe, myself, Mary Blanche.
Thank you for listening, andwe'll see you on the next one.
Take care everybody.
Thank you.
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