Fractional EVERYTHING + Business Operations ‘Blind Rankings’ Game with Jen Hamilton

In this episode of Spiraling Up, the Hinge team dives into the growing trend of fractional executives in professional services. Austin, Mary-Blanche, and Joe are joined by Jen Hamilton, a fractional COO and mentor to COOs, to play a game of “Blind Rankings” in a fun exploration of on-demand work in various aspects of business operations. 

Episode Transcript

Austin McNair (00:00):
In today's episode of Spiraling Up, our
team discusses the rise offractional executives and
professional services, and thenwe're gonna speak with
fractional COO all star JenHamilton about all things
happening in operations.
This is a really insightfulepisode.
Welcome everyone.

(00:20):
This is spiraling up with HingeMarketing.
All right.
Welcome back to another episodeof Spiraling Up.
My name is Austin and I amjoined by my co-host, Mary
Blanche Kramer and Joe Pope.

(00:40):
Mary Blanche.
Joe, how are you guys doingtoday?

Mary Blanche (00:43):
Doing good.

Joe Pope (00:45):
Yeah, man.
Doing good.
Excited to get going and havesome conversations about, well,
the fractional world that we'reliving in.

Austin McNair (00:52):
That's, that's right.
Uh, I want to give a quick shoutout to our listeners.
We've had a lot of greatfeedback on the podcast
recently.
If you're listening again tothis episode, please.
Leave a like, subscribe,comment, send us some feedback.
guys, I, I'm very excitedbecause, uh, we're gonna be very
focused in this episode.
It's not often that, you know,in every episode we kind of dive

(01:14):
into one topic, but today wereally are, we're kind of.
Focusing more on this, uh, youknow, area of fractional
executives on demand work.
How has it crept into your liferecently?
How, how has it been more, youknow, why did we bring this to
the table?

Joe Pope (01:29):
You're all things ai.
I saw your post you put upyesterday, Austin.
Right.
You were talking about, I.
I think we can probably get intoit in a, in another pivotal
story, but I embraced AI in afractional manner that I felt,
uh, was relevant to folks.
Did you know that you canbasically use your phone now as
like A FaceTime with like aGemini or chat gt and talk to it

(01:51):
as you try to do a various, youknow, thing?
For me it was cooking of whichI'm not good at, and I had an AI
companion be my fractional souschef.
Sous chef.
Is that how you say that?

Mary Blanche (02:01):
Sous chef.
Yeah, so it told you kind ofwhat to do.
You like, here's the next stepin your meal, or,

Joe Pope (02:07):
E Exactly.
It was a running dialogue forlike 35, 40 minutes of us just
talking back and forth.
Uh, you know, I, I was trying touse cast iron because, you know,
fancy and, well, you know, youcan screw that up real quick.
Um, so, you know, I was askinghow to season, how to prep.
Uh, I was cooking some likeonions and pepper and mushroom
medley to put on top of a steakbecause of course steak.

(02:30):
Um, so yeah, no, I thought thatthis was just so interesting.
It's that type of insight.
To be at my fingertips and tobasically allow me to make
something that was edible was,uh, that, that's my fractional
story of the week.

Mary Blanche (02:44):
I like that.
I'm gonna have to try that.
So, I mean, could you down tosaying, how should I season said
steak and it would say X, Y, Z.
1, 2, 3.

Joe Pope (02:54):
Yeah.
I mean, the transcript of thiswould've been super insightful.
I mean, it, it was, it was likethe most polite response to my
stupid rambling about variousthings.
It'd be like, of course, Joe,that sounds like a great idea.
You should definitely considerthis though.
And I'm like, oh, okay.

Mary Blanche (03:09):
Also pumps you up while you're, while

Joe Pope (03:11):
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, it was like amotivational sous

Mary Blanche (03:14):
Yep.
That's awesome.
Well, I mean, I, when I think offractional things that, that I
use, I mean, Instacart is whatcomes to mind.
I mean, I do not, I would notmake it a week without
Instacart.
I instacart everything and it,um, saves me so much time
because I do not like goingaisle by aisle through.
The

Austin McNair (03:33):
Is Instacart.
I actually am not joking.
I have no idea what Instacartis.

Mary Blanche (03:37):
store stop.
You don't know what Instacartis.

Austin McNair (03:39):
I don't,

Joe Pope (03:40):
Right

Mary Blanche (03:41):
What?

Austin McNair (03:42):
whatever Instacart is, they don't have it
where I live,

Mary Blanche (03:44):
They don't have it.

Austin McNair (03:45):
so I dunno what it's,

Mary Blanche (03:47):
that's fair.
It's basically an app where youcan pick a grocery store close
to you.
You pick out everything that youwant, um, from that grocery
store, and then someone goes andshops for you, picks it up and
brings it to your house.
It is, hmm.

Austin McNair (04:01):
for Uber, for groceries.

Joe Pope (04:03):
It.
It's exactly right.
Except, except for if you have aChase Visa card, they give you a
credit every month.
So it's, I went, I went theInstacart route.
But yeah, I guess Instacart,Southern Brazil, they have not
yet expanded their territorydown there.

Austin McNair (04:17):
It has not made it here yet.
No.

Joe Pope (04:19):
No.
No.
So what's your, anythingfractional from your perspective
then?
Uh, Austin.

Austin McNair (04:24):
Joe, I, I relate to what you were saying, like,
you know, in terms of how you'reinteracting with Gemini and ai.
Um, I mean, I, I think just ingeneral, and you guys know that
I'm like.
Like bursting at the seams tolike talk more about some of
the, the AI stuff, futurepivotal story, uh, for, for next
week.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I, Ithink, you know, while it won't

(04:46):
be like meant necessarily afractional executive or the
value you get from a, a humanbeing kind of being brought into
the loop with all theirexperience, I think that, you
know, the way that people areusing these large language
models is very similar to kindof like, you know.
Fractional support fractionalwork,

Joe Pope (05:04):
on demand.

Austin McNair (05:05):
Even, even preparing for this podcast, you
know, we, we now heavily usetools like Gemini and, and chat
GPT to, um, kind of speed up theprocess, right?
For, for ideation and forbrainstorming and for, you know,
summarizing intros and stufflike that.
So things that you, you know.

(05:26):
Just a couple years ago likethat, those tools, you know, it
didn't exist and now we havethem.
Um, so yeah, uh, there's thetechnology aspect to it, but
then there's also the humans inthe loop.
And I, and I think that's whatI'm most excited to talk about.
And actually I think that thatlends itself well to a
transition here to our Pivotalstory this week.
And b, do you wanna go ahead andintroduce this week's pivotal

(05:47):
story?

Mary Blanche (05:48):
Yeah.
All right, let's do it.
So welcome back to anotherPivotal story.
Uh, today is all about the riseof fractional executives gaining
traction in the business world.
And we recently saw an articleon Reworked that really took a
deep dive here and it got uswondering how our clients.
Even our own agency could betapping into this model Now, for

(06:11):
a long time, the standardC-suite model has been pretty
set in stone.
So why now?
You know, why are more companiesstarting to bring in these
fractional executives?
Well, the article laid out somepretty compelling reasons, and
it's everything from needing tocut costs in uncertain times.
To filling specific gaps duringperiods of rapid growth or

(06:33):
change.
Uh, so Joe, I wanna kick it toyou first today.
Tell us, have you seen companiesyou work with embracing this
fractional executive model?
And what do you think are thebiggest benefits or challenges
of bringing on leadership inthis way?

Joe Pope (06:49):
I mean, you absolutely are seeing it, and we're gonna
have, uh, one of them come on,uh, in terms of an, A specialist
in this, Jen, a little later inthis episode.
But I think the biggest thingthat stands out to me in this
world now where you have accessto expertise in a.
You know, part-time manner isthe effectiveness for
organizations that wouldn't havehad that access previously.

(07:10):
I mean, especially your small tomid-size groups, uh, you know,
you had to rely on hopefullymaking a really good hire or you
had to rely on having a budgetto afford a McKenzie or somebody
like that, right?
Who brings in a consulting typeservice.
But, you know, there is analternative now, uh, much like
I.
Have, uh, an alternative souschef.
I used to have to pull open a, abig book, and that relies on my

(07:32):
ability to read and keep my eyeson one thing while try not to
burn something else.
And I mean, you could thinkabout it from the perspective
of, uh, these, we'll say smallerbusinesses now who are going
through a period of growth ormaybe bringing on a rebranding
type initiative, uh, and they'renot quite ready to make that
jump to the higher price.

(07:53):
Consultancy type group and this,this provides a really
interesting alternative acrossall major areas of the C-suite
from the executive tooperations, marketing and
growth, business development,things along those lines as
well.

Mary Blanche (08:07):
Yeah, solid points.
Awesome.
What's your take?

Austin McNair (08:10):
Well for me, you guys know, I like to turn to the
hinge, hinge research to seelike is there anything that we
can glean from, um, our researchand how it applies to the trends
that we talk about?
And actually there is in thiscase.
So one thing that we've seen,this is something we've seen
for.
Probably five or six yearsrunning in the study since we've
studied, kind of incorporatedinto our high growth study, is

(08:32):
that faster growing companiesare more likely to outsource.
Then slower growing companies,and I think we can break that
down.
So, you know, I think from theperspective of our high growth
study, we're thinking a lotabout marketing.
So a lot of the stuff on thelist includes like video graphic
design, website management, SEO.

(08:53):
But there are some things on thelist like strategy.
Which, you know, if you thinkabout outsourcing strategy, what
would that look like?
Well, it would look likebringing in some kind of
executive to help, you know,some executive level thinking to
help kind of set the table, youknow, either during like a
season of transition or a seasonof growth.
Like those things you mentionedmb.

(09:14):
Even there, we're seeing thathigh growth firms are leveraging
those outside resources forthings like strategy, more of
those executive level things.
So I mean, my, my takeaway isthat, you know, I think this
seems like something that istotally on the table, and
especially in lines of what we,what we see from our, our high
growth data.

Joe Pope (09:34):
It is interesting.
I mean, we've talked about someof these big benefits.
I I, there are a few things thatcome to mind though.
Anytime you think about bringingsomebody kind of from the cold,
if you will, they may have allthis experience.
They've worked with a variety ofdifferent industries, maybe or
um, sizes of organizations, andthat's all.
Great, because that person canbring that insight to, to your
team.
But the another thing that comesto mind on the, on the negative

(09:57):
side though, is this wholecultural integration, right?
The idea of you're bringing thisexpert in and they're expected
to kinda hit the wrong runningand be ready to roll.
But, you know, organizationshave their own behaviors and
these groups could run into somechallenges, especially if the
executive who you're bringing into shake things up, proceeds to
shake things up.

(10:18):
Uh, so I, I do think that thereare some.
Important elements here in termsof like how you vet out who your
resource is, making sure it'snot going to be something that
is, uh, gonna bring yourfunctions to a screeching halt,
but not able to restart as apart of this new, uh, this new
era, if you will.

Austin McNair (10:37):
Well, I, I can think of no better way of
continuing this conversationthan to talk with our guest, Jen
Hamilton.
She's a fractional COO.
She is, um, like I mentionedbefore, uh, just a wealth of
insight and I'm really excitedto kind of dig in and kind of
put her to the test a little bitto hear.
What kind of things as a cofractional COO does she kind of

(11:00):
rank in terms of importance?
So why don't we turn to thatsegment now for our next segment
in spiraling up?
Well, we know that operationsleaders are often the unsung
heroes of the business world.
If they're successful, mostpeople won't notice, and if they
mess up.
Everybody knows it, so it takesa special kind of person to love

(11:23):
that kind of role and to make itwork.
This is why today we're soexcited to be joined by our
guest, Jen Hamilton.
Jen is a fractional COO and amentor to other COOs out there
in the professional servicesspace.
Jen, welcome to Spiraling Up.

Jen Hamilton (11:40):
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited to be here.
It's gonna be fun.

Austin McNair (11:45):
Jen, I was, um, looking at your LinkedIn profile
and it was really striking to methat, uh, when I went to your
bio section, um, you actuallyled off with a story.
You, it was just kind of like afamily story.
Would you mind sharing like thispassion that you have for
helping businesses kind of growand thrive?

Jen Hamilton (12:03):
Yeah, it's interesting because I'm sure I'm
not the only one who.
Doesn't always understand yourorigin story of what pulls you
and calls you to your work.
And I started to put the piecestogether and I realized why
I've, why have I always wantedto work with small businesses to
do good in the world.
You know, like those who arelike out there to really help

(12:25):
someone.
And it started back when I was ateenager and even some somewhat
before that.
So my.
Grandparents own a smallhardware store in town where I
grew up and my entire familyworked there, including myself,
my sis sister, and my cousins.
When we were super young, it wasmy first job when I was nine.

(12:45):
I was counting like washers andscrews and things for inventory
and I thought it was the bestthing ever.
'cause I got paid$2 an hour and,and like hot chocolate.
I'm like, this is great.
And it made me.
Probably started an addiction towork.
I just love working.
Um, but it was fast forward inwhen I was about, I think 13 or

(13:07):
14 when Home Depot came intotown and it seemed like
overnight this hardware storewas gone.
And, and it wasn't just thestores gone, like my entire
family was outta work and justwhat does that look like?
What are we doing?
That kind of thing.
And um, the thing that reallystruck me though is like.
Having a kid version of lookingat business saying, why did the

(13:30):
good people lose?
You know, why is it they are sowell loved by their customers?
They, they've put their heartand soul into it, and why didn't
they make it?
And it was because they didn'thave the business acumen.
So it put me on the trajectoryto, to be able to say, okay, how
can I go save others?

(13:50):
And it was interesting because,um, the side note to that story
is this company still exists,but it morphed, it morphed from
a hardware store into realestate investment because they
had two superheroes come in, anaccountant and a lawyer to save
the day.
To basically tell them you havean asset.

(14:11):
You are on some incredible land.
Let's make this a family legacy.
And it's a business that I willbe inheriting.
It still exists.
Um, and my mom and her brotherstill say, we have no idea how
to do business.
We know hardware.
But, um, they are smart enoughto surround themselves with
folks in the professionalservice world who do know what
they're doing.

(14:32):
And it's part of why this hasalways been my story, uh, to.
I've always envisioned myself,it seems so silly, but now I
have it on my website where Ifeel like I'm in a suit and
wearing a cape basically that'ssuperhero to save the day and,
and it's how I see.
I'm probably one of the onlypeople who see accountants and
lawyers as superheroes, but Ido.

Joe Pope (14:55):
We have plenty of accountant and lawyer clients
who love the idea of beingconsidered superheroes.
So I, I, I think that nobodywould mind that.
And Jen, your story reallyresonated with me.
My, I.
Uh, my best friend growing ups,family owned a hardware store.
So when we saw that on, uh, onyour website, it really, uh, I
was the, I was one of the guys.
I didn't get paid.
I mostly just sat there and hungout in the basement.

(15:17):
But I also, uh, moved washersaround and, you know, listened
to the old guys talk and soforth.
But it's a great story, Jen.
Uh, really appreciate yousharing it with everyone here.

Jen Hamilton (15:27):
Thank you.

Austin McNair (15:28):
So you know, you've, you've gathered all this
experience now in your longcareer in professional services
and particularly in this spaceof operations.
Right?
And so we're really excited to.
Play a game with you.
today.
'cause operations, I mean, thisspans so many categories and it
was really hard for our team tochoose just like one area to

(15:48):
dive into today.
So we narrowed it down to three.
So we're gonna talk today aboutclient experience, company
culture, and businessintelligence.
So, Jen, the game that we wouldlike to play is blind rankings
and here's how it will work.

(16:09):
We're gonna play three roundseach focused on one of those
critical areas that I mentionedthat I think COOs at any
professional services firms,they're gonna have their hands
in in, in some degree.
And what we'd like to do foreach round is present you with a
series of seven items, one byone, and have you rank them in
terms of importance.
The catch is.
Of course, you're not gonna knowwhat's coming next.

(16:31):
So, that's the challenge.
You'll get to rank them as wego, describing your reasoning,
but at the end we'll take a lookat the list and I don't know,
maybe you'll be like, oh, I gotit all.
I, I, I want to train, I want tochange it all.
And that's all, that's, that'sthe whole fun bit.
So any, any questions for us aswe go into the game?

Jen Hamilton (16:48):
No, I am, uh, I'm gonna coin a, phrase that my
friend said recently.
I'm scare sighted, scared andexcited.

Mary Blanche (16:56):
I love that.

Austin McNair (16:57):
Cool.
Well, Uh, let's dive in Okay.
So Jen, round one, our firstcategory is client experience.
Jen, before we dive into theoptions get your rankings, tell
us about client experience whenyou're working as a fractional
COO or working with some of thepeople you mentor, client
experience, like going into thiscategory, what are already some

(17:18):
of the things you're thinkingabout?

Jen Hamilton (17:20):
of the things I think about with client
experience is that most firmsare wrapped around this.
and from an operational point ofview, you should be, these are
the people that pay your bills.
But the other thing too is, howcan we make sure that they have.
Not just an experience, I liketo say that they have a wow
experience, a way to just be soimpressed that they refer

(17:43):
people.
So this is, to me, like thewhole business wraps around how
great the client experience isbecause it will keep you in
business, not just because theypay your bills, but help you
continue to build a reputation.
So I, part of why I think.
Going back to the whole hardwarething, I learned this by
witnessing how incredibly giftedmy family was and put their

(18:08):
heart and soul into theirclients.
And to see that, that, well,that wasn't the reason they went
away, but um, but it was thereason they stuck around for as
long as they did do before, uh,a large company came in and out,
uh, expense to them essentially.
So,

Austin McNair (18:23):
Right, right, right.
Well, let's get into it.
'cause we've got seven itemshere.
I think it's gonna be tough to,to prioritize'em, but you're the
expert.
So let's start out with firstone.
proactive project management andcommunication.

Jen Hamilton (18:38):
I, so this whole game is gonna be like picking my
favorite kid.
They're all gonna be hard.
Um, proactive.
I love proactive.
Let's go with Three.

Austin McNair (18:53):
Three.
Proactive project management andcommunication.

Jen Hamilton (18:57):
Okay.
Oh, I'm already afraid.
What's the next one?

Austin McNair (19:03):
All right, number two here, regularly scheduled
client feedback surveys, somaybe like MPS or C stat.

Jen Hamilton (19:13):
yeah, exactly.
Oh, I love the feedback.
Okay.
I'm gonna, I wanna leave spacefor some other things.
So let's go with fifth.

Joe Pope (19:22):
Often, when you think about talking about regular
schedule, what comes to mindthere?
Right.
Are, are we, uh, every year,every other year?
Is it monthly?
Is it, you know, what does thattypically look like, Jen, when
you bring that type ofsuggestion to a team?

Jen Hamilton (19:36):
It's a great question.
cause as you all know withmarketing, you know, this is a
really powerful way that you canshare your story very, very
quickly by understanding what itis that people would do to
especially NPS, to be able torecommend.
Others.
And the thing that I.
see is that people get theregularly scheduled is the part

(19:58):
that I.
love about it.
And what they miss about it isthat putting a system around it
to cause it to happen.
Of course, I'm gonna say that asan operations person, um, I, I
would like someone to be touchedif you will, asked once a year,
but it doesn't, I think we're peat least, um,'cause we don't

(20:18):
want to overdo it.
But you can also wrap in atestimonial kind of experience
with it.
You can also wrap in a referraltype experience so you can
really put some good.
Systems around it because, uh,having that, that survey results
can, you know, basically spur,trigger some other good
activities, but you don't, thething that people mess up to is

(20:40):
like, they do it all at the sametime.
You could actually, you know,spread it out amongst different
clients so that the trigger, ifyou will, is off of maybe their
start date or, or something likethat.
Instead of like, okay, we haveto do it on November 1st, or
whatever.

Mary Blanche (20:57):
Yeah, I was gonna ask you if you ever do it, um,
like deliverable base.
So like when you finish a big,when you finish a big project or
a big engagement, if you evertie it to, um, maybe not
necessarily like a, a timemetric, but a yeah.

Jen Hamilton (21:11):
Yeah, that's a great example.
You can also systematize itaround a trigger event.
It could be not just the end ofthe engagement where I think a
lot of people do it, but whereyou can really get fancy and,
um, you would have to work withyour client service team.
But it's very powerful if you,if you look at your overall
engagement and you think oflike.

(21:31):
Where are some moments of theengagement, where they're really
having a high, high anddefinitely not ask when they're
having a low low.
I mean, there are times we makeour clients very, very happy and
very, very upset.
It's just part of the process,Right.
Because we're advisors, I.
We're telling them sometimes badnews, but then we also win the
day.
So if you can really trigger tothose, whoa, the whoa moments,

(21:55):
I'm really in love with you.
That's the best time to ask forall three testimonials, NPS,
referrals, all the things.

Austin McNair (22:05):
All right.
The next one on the list isseamless transition from sales
to service delivery.

Joe Pope (22:14):
Oh, close to my heart,

Austin McNair (22:15):
I.

Jen Hamilton (22:17):
I'm so afraid.
I don't know what's gonna benumber one, but I.
wanna put a Two I wanna put atwo maybe.

Austin McNair (22:23):
all.

Jen Hamilton (22:23):
Yeah.

Mary Blanche (22:23):
do you have any best practices with that?
Like when you're advising yourclients on, on how to have a
seamless transition?

Joe Pope (22:32):
I.

Jen Hamilton (22:32):
I'm gonna say this, it seems so simple, but
you need to have, and I'm gonnaeven go to marketing, right?
Marketing, sales and servicedelivery to talk to each other,
like at the leadership level ifyou have leaders of those
different areas, but to reallymake sure that.
What we're promising in ourmarketing, what we promise in
our sales is what we'redelivering and vice versa if

(22:53):
something changes.
So, like for me, um, anotherterm for the work we do is
called Integrator.
And if you're familiar with EOS,and to me this is exactly why
our, our role is calledintegrator.
It's making sure we areintegrating that everything is
working in the same way.
And so to have the leadership.

(23:14):
Of each of those be able to doit.
That's why when you're really,really, really tiny, like even a
solopreneur, you can do thisbetter than a large firm because
you see every step of theprocess.
You're a part of it.
So you don't wanna lose thatability to feel confident that
what your marketing promises andwhat your sales say, Yeah.
we can put this together, iswhat you're gonna deliver.

(23:35):
I have seen it go very badlywhen what is promised sounds so
great and what is delivered isnot.

Joe Pope (23:41):
Yeah, and I think one of the interesting things you
said there is like, obviouslywith a smaller organization,
your leaders pretty much havethe opportunity to have that
natural connection point, buteven these larger organizations,
just the best practice ofkeeping it simple, right?
You, if you're not deliveringwhat you're promising, the
likelihood that your client'sexperience is gonna be solid is
not likely.

(24:02):
So that still best practiceresonates with a company, you
know, massive companies.
They have to keep that type ofprocess in their minds.

Jen Hamilton (24:10):
Yeah, they just have to work harder'cause they
have more people.

Joe Pope (24:13):
That's right.

Austin McNair (24:15):
All right.
Well, we kind of teed up thisnext one perfectly here.
We still got the first spot.
We've got the six and sevenspots left, Jen.
The next one is direct access tofirm experts.

Jen Hamilton (24:28):
Hmm.
Okay.
I'm gonna go four.
But Yeah.
this is getting harder.
Definitely getting harder.
Um, you know, one of the thingsthat I think why wouldn't put it
number one?
'cause you know, obviously I'mlooking towards the top here
with what I got left.
Um, one of the things I wouldsay is that if you truly can

(24:51):
create a collaborative culture.
it doesn't have to be that your,each client has direct access
only to the firm expert, if thatmakes sense.
If you truly work together, um,we all have different expertise.
And so if you, if you have acollaborative culture, you can

(25:12):
have access to multiple experts,and I think you can serve the
client even better.

Austin McNair (25:17):
Okay, next on the list.
Consistent, timely, follow upafter key interactions.

Jen Hamilton (25:26):
I love the word consistent.
Okay.
I'm gonna go one

Austin McNair (25:32):
All right.

Joe Pope (25:33):
there's

Mary Blanche (25:34):
I love that my project management.

Jen Hamilton (25:36):
oh yeah.
I mean, what did they say?
The fortunes and the follow uptalk about that in marketing,
but it's the entire experiencewith the client and.
Doggies.
Like one of the things thatPrime Amazon Prime has taught us
is responsiveness and in client,um, based experience.

(25:57):
While we can't like just say,order it and it's on your door
and in 30 minutes, it's kind ofwhat the overarching culture is
expecting of us is extremeresponsiveness.
So that follow up now is likenot an option.
It's a, it's a necessity.

Joe Pope (26:15):
just inherently, as somebody who primarily does
sales, right, I, I don't do asmuch billable work when it comes
to the hinge side of the house.
When I hear about things goingwrong, it's very, I.
Common that it's tied to aconsistent, timely follow up
where it really wasn't evennecessarily an issue.
But, you know, time passes,emotions, you know, go through
thought processes and lead tomiscommunication or losing just

(26:39):
honestly, your hands on a wheel.
And you see that across anyindustry, any honestly service
that you're being provided thatif you, if you lose track of
that one, you're, you're introuble.
So I, I actually, I, I.
I'm interested to see,'causethere's some others coming up
that might make you worried,Jen.
But that's a good number onefrom,

Jen Hamilton (26:58):
I know I.

Joe Pope (26:59):
this sales person's perspective.

Jen Hamilton (27:02):
I'm like seeing six and seven left.
I'm like, oh, my babies aregonna go to the bottom and I
want them to.

Austin McNair (27:09):
Well, let's do the reveal.
So we, you got two slots here,left.
Two options.
the next one on the list is theability to offer additional
services based on evolvingclient needs.

Jen Hamilton (27:21):
okay.
So good.
Also really much more, uh,effective to sell to existing
clients.
So I'm gonna have to put it insix, like that's what I got
left.

Austin McNair (27:31):
All right.

Jen Hamilton (27:32):
But I'll say I'm okay with it being a little bit
lower because, um, sometimes theclient exer experience team can
identify it but not sell itwell.
Like they need a Joe in theirworld, so, okay.
They at least need to identifyit, but you.
know, they need to partner withsomeone who can sell it
sometimes.

Mary Blanche (27:51):
Yeah.
Honestly, this is shaping up tobe a pretty good list.
Like I, I like your order here.

Jen Hamilton (27:56):
I'm worried.
One

Austin McNair (27:57):
So well here.
So here's the last option.
We can see what we, we candebrief here on the the big
list.
So in the number seven spotwould be brand experience across
all touch points.
So that would be number seven.
How do we feel about that onebeing at the lower part of the
list?

Jen Hamilton (28:14):
Ah, you know what?
To me, uh, just because I wannagive myself an out, it feels a
lot.
Like two in terms of ourconversation.
Maybe not the same thing, butthe intention when we were
talking about two of having itbe the same experience across,
so, you know, maybe it higher,but we at least talked about how

(28:34):
important it's.

Austin McNair (28:36):
Anything else you'd change on the list in
terms of like the, blindrankings here?
I mean.
MB already gave her endorsement.

Jen Hamilton (28:44):
Oh gosh.
Um, you know what?
I do think it, it, it turned outpretty well.
I might move the additionalservices up a little higher.
I gotta say leaving salestowards the end doesn't make me
feel super great.
But yeah,

Joe Pope (29:01):
Maybe you just have such a really good marketing
team on hand that all theseleads are

Jen Hamilton (29:05):
there you go.

Joe Pope (29:05):
in and it's not as important.

Austin McNair (29:08):
Well, speaking of supporting each other, that,
that, that lends itself to ournext category.
Jen, let's talk, let, let's talkabout a new list, new blind
rankings.
Let's talk about companyculture.
Obviously another key area whenyou think about, you know,
operations of a business.
Of all sizes, right?
Large business, small business,medium sized business company

(29:30):
culture is such a key aspect of,you know, what drives
performance, what drives, youknow, that client experience
that we were just talking about.
Jen, for you, when you're, youknow, as a fractional, COO, you
know, what are some of thethings you look for when you're
thinking about company cultureand you enter into a new
engagement?

Jen Hamilton (29:47):
So.
I'll say some of the things Ilook for are what brings them in
to me most often.
Um, and it's almost like I lookfor it even in the marketing
side of things to just see ifthere's something, uh, aligned
with our approach and what theyneed and the.
The two major things that I seeon the problematic side is that

(30:12):
their people aren't, um, takinginitiative, like coming up with
their own ideas and they're notaccountable.
They feel like they can't trustthem to do what they promise,
you know?
So those are the two big things.
I haven't been into a company.
To start with where those thingsare in place because they
wouldn't be calling me.
I mean, really at the heart ofit, if we can't trust our people

(30:34):
to do what they're gonna do orhave them make decisions or
problem solve on their own,especially in professional
services.
We are doomed, you know, so tome, all of the pieces, and I'm
sure you'll reveal some things,even though I don't know what
they are.
But, um, I think that you'll seethey all support in some way,

(30:54):
shape or form.
People being able to do theirjob well and take some
initiative to, uh, like, here'swhat I think might need to be
fixed, or here's an opportunitywhen we can get those two pieces
together, the culture juststarts to fall in place.

Austin McNair (31:12):
All right.
Well, let's, let's get to thelist.
I'm super excited to see what,where, where you place these
things.
Let's start, uh, I'll start witha little bit of an easier one
maybe here.
How about flexibility in workarrangements?
So like, are we hybrid, are weremote?
Do we, are we full-time inoffice In terms of company
culture?
I know that, you know, postpandemic, that that is a huge

(31:34):
conversation right now in theworld.
Um, how would you rank it interms of importance?

Jen Hamilton (31:39):
Uh, that's the hard part because I do think
it's critical the workforce isasking for it.
But in terms of what else couldbe on my list, I'm gonna go five
and I hope I don't regret that.

Austin McNair (31:56):
All

Jen Hamilton (31:56):
And I'll say this, um, this is one of the things.
That annoys me is, um, we'retalking a little bit about going
old school on certain ways ofthinking.
Um, I don't like being in officebecause I need to micromanage
you and I don't trust you.

(32:17):
So it's the why you're in theoffice.
Um, so that's why I kind oflike, okay, you know, like we
have to have a reason.
You can be flexible and hybrid,or in the office if it's just
because I'm too, I'm gonna get alittle preachy here.
I'm too lazy of a leader toactually be a leader and trust

(32:38):
you no matter what yourenvironment is.
I'm not okay with that.
That is a broken culture.

Joe Pope (32:43):
Yeah, I was hearing, uh, from a a, um, try to be
vague here'cause I don't wannacall them out too much, but I
was hearing from a family memberwho works for a large company
and they are pushing to do aback to office type approach.
You know, he doesn't live closeto the office right now.
He, I.
Travels every couple weeks to doa day or two.
Uh, but they're now pushing for,as a part of a corporate

(33:04):
rollout, three day in officewith the intention of
potentially going all the wayback to five day in office.
And then you get a certainamount of quote flexible days.
Best part about this though isthis individual's boss doesn't
live in the state where theoffice is.
Therefore they won't be there.
It's just something that they'repushing the team to have to do.

Jen Hamilton (33:24):
Yeah.
I, I don't like where this postpandemic trend is.
Um, and I, I.
don't know this for sure, but Ithink I heard something about
like zoom going back in theoffice, like, really zoom?
Are you kidding me?
Um, and maybe that was just a meor a joke, but anyway, the, my
point is like everything needs apurpose.

(33:46):
Whatever your work arrangementis.
Have a purpose, so haveflexibility in the purpose and
in the individual when the dayis done, if you can get more
productivity out of anindividual because they can have
that flexibility, why wouldn'tyou?

Mary Blanche (34:04):
you have any advice for companies that are
actually largely remote?
Like how, how you keep that kindof comradery and you know,
collective culture?

Jen Hamilton (34:14):
Well, and that's sometimes the, um.
The like shiny version of why weneed you back in the office,
Right.
Or we're, we're gonna lose ourculture.
We have to have the camaraderie.
So I'm glad you brought that up.
But it again, like theundertones, if it's really just
like, we don't trust you unlesswe can see what that you're
working, you know what, they'regonna figure that out and be

(34:34):
like, eh, pH if I may.
Um, so I think the thing is, isthat you have to really
understand why hu, how humansconnect and it.
Yes, I hundred percent agree.
You can connect more in person,but that doesn't have to be
every day.
You know, I have worked remotefor many, many years.

(34:56):
My client, many, many, manyyears.
I didn't wanna, you know, likebasically my son's graduating
from college, and you can do themath.
I started being flexible with itwhen he, when he was born.
But, uh, so before it was cool,let's put it that way.
But the thing, the thing is, isthat I don't feel not connected
to my people.
My clients are.

(35:17):
All remote.
when we do have like an annualplanning session or something
and we come together, absolutelythere is more connection.
You can't pass that up, but itdoesn't have to be every day.
You know you can do otherthings, but when the day is
done, are you listening to whatmatters to your team and doing

(35:40):
your best to.
Honor what matters to them.
You know, it's not just apaycheck.
It's not just, being in personor whatever, or like, Hey, we
got some cool donuts coming inon Monday, so you should show
up.
What matters is do they feellike you care about them, that
what they do you see asimportant and it contributes.

(36:01):
So it doesn't matter if you'reremote or in person, if you're
not doing that piece, they'renot connected.
The culture isn't strong.

Joe Pope (36:09):
To answer the question of Zoom's remote policy, Gemini
has informed me that employeeswithin 50 miles of the office
are required to work at leasttwo days of the week in the
office.
And the determining factor, thedetermining factor is the
mileage.
And I just have a question.
Is that as the bird flies or arewe talking like miles where you
have to drive?

Austin McNair (36:30):
There's definitely some people out there
doing that math.
so Jen, next on the list here isrelated, right?
We were kind of just touching onit, but, the social events and
team building activities.
So, I mean this, I definitelyhas overlap with what you were
just saying, but how would yourank that in terms of
importance?

Jen Hamilton (36:47):
Just because I'm thinking other things are gonna
be more important.
I'm gonna put it in seven, we'llsee how it goes.
And I kind of already sharedthat, right.
It's, it's what you do in thoseevents that matters, not the
events themselves.

Austin McNair (37:00):
Love

Mary Blanche (37:01):
any?
Good examples of like whatyou've seen work really well.

Jen Hamilton (37:05):
Yeah.
I'll give an example that thatworked.
Um.
Really well that I recently justdid, and you can do this hybrid
or in person.
Um, it was very, it was a littlebit more vulnerable, but we
truly got connected and kneweach other.
Very quickly, which was we madea, a collective, playlist and we
put in our, like three songsthat kind of define us.

(37:27):
And so, but that was submittedin advance.
someone else made the playlistand then when we did, the event
we had as part of it was kind oflike, not just name that tune,
but name that who, who was theone that submitted it, and then
you had to share like, why,what, how does this represent
you now?
With a smaller group, you have abigger group, you're, it's gonna
take a long time, but man, didour playlist come out great too.

Mary Blanche (37:52):
That's

Austin McNair (37:52):
feel like if we did that all of, you know, half
the songs for uh, would be likea bunch of emo post punk songs
that Joe and I put in there.

Joe Pope (38:03):
Yeah, that's right.

Austin McNair (38:04):
be tons of Taylor Swift.
Yeah, it'd be a big combinationof that.
Um, okay, next on the list here,strong onboarding programs for
new hires.

Jen Hamilton (38:17):
I put it two.

Austin McNair (38:19):
Oh.

Jen Hamilton (38:19):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope (38:21):
It seems to be a pretty confident choice to throw
that right up there at the top.
I, I'm guessing there's somehorror stories of ones that
you've,'cause I'm guessing youdon't necessarily come in and
you see a bunch of strongonboarding programs.
Any, any horror stories thatcome to mind on onboarding
approaches, uh, that you had to.
Kill very quickly.

Jen Hamilton (38:41):
Um, basically it's more that they're non-existent
in most companies I walk intoversus like, really, really bad.
The bad is not having one or, orlike thinking it's onboarding.
And part of why like the first90 days in any relationship, um,
is really critical, right?
You get to start to build ahabit.

(39:02):
Together and you start to get toknow each other.
And so we wanna, I mean, any 90days of anything, right.
That's where you really ingrainhabits.
So if we don't do itintentionally, we're not clear
on what's expected of them.
We're not clear on what ourculture is.
We're not clear on how they fitand how this is all gonna work,
which is what is lacking inbasically every onboarding

(39:25):
program I've ever.
Um, boarding program I've everwalked into.
it starts them off.
Really set up to fail.
And then what will happen isoftentimes the blaming of the
person, um, you know, that, thatit's their person versus really
if you stop step back and see islike, did we set them up for

(39:47):
success or failure?
And so much of what I seeculturally that doesn't go well.
Is poor communication ofexpectations, and so an
onboarding is really acommunication of what do we
expect you to do in this job?
You have 90 days for us toreally train you and support
you, and guide you and kind ofshape you into being super clear

(40:09):
on the expectations so that youhave the chance to demonstrate
you can do it.

Austin McNair (40:13):
so halfway mark here.
Uh, the next one on the list isClear Career Paths and
Opportunities for Advancement.

Jen Hamilton (40:23):
This kind lives with like flexibility.
So I'm gonna put it in six justto again, be, be again.
It's like.
Both flexibility and career.
growth plans are super importantfor our, our youngest
generations in the workforce.
Like this is what they look for,but I.
will tell you, this is what theysay they look for, which is why

(40:47):
I'm putting it a little bitlower.
I go back to the what?
The career growth plans andopportunities for advancement.
It's code for tell me I matterand that I'm important.
So if we could do that, like instrong onboarding programs, like
really being clear like, this isyour role, this is why it's so

(41:08):
important, and keep saying thatand you're doing a great job.
yes, it's important for them toknow there's a place to grow
into it, but just having themunderstand that they are growing
where they are is.
More important than like, you'regetting to the next point
because you also don't wantpeople who are there just for
the flexibility or just for thecareer paths.

(41:29):
So if you tailor everythingaround what the, uh, newer
generation, which my son is one,he is stepping into a
professional service firm aftercollege in the fall.
And so, you know, I, I know whatthey're asking, but what you
really.
What he really wants is just toknow that I can keep growing and

(41:49):
I don't have to say, okay, I getthis title, or whatever.
They'll ask for it.
But what they're really askingfor is acknowledgement.
You see me, you see that I'mdoing a good job and I'm getting
better and I'm helping.

Austin McNair (42:01):
You've got some, some top picks here left, and I
think you're gonna be happy withyourself here'cause I in, in
some of the answers here thatyou've, you've said, you've
alluded to some of these things.
The next one is a supportive andinclusive team environment.

Jen Hamilton (42:14):
That's really everything.
I wanna put it one.
We're gonna go one.
We're going one.

Joe Pope (42:18):
You, you just pitched it for the last, like three to
four minutes, so I,

Jen Hamilton (42:22):
How can I not?

Joe Pope (42:23):
yeah.

Jen Hamilton (42:26):
That's everything we've been talking about.
Absolutely.

Joe Pope (42:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
In terms of some coaching tipson how to promote that type of
thing.
'cause I think you see thosewords supportive, you see
inclusive, like

Jen Hamilton (42:40):
Right.

Joe Pope (42:40):
that being said, a lot of times you'll also see
organizations just use thosewords on a website and do
absolutely nothing else that'sgoing to help that type of
person be successful.
What are some tips you typicallygive folks?
You know, this is number one onhow to bring those types of
things in.

Jen Hamilton (42:57):
So I can't stand words on a wall like you just
said.
You know, like, we say this, butwe don't do it.
Whether it's a website wall or aphysical wall, doesn't really
matter.
Um, and to that point, it's,it's all about the tone at the
top.
What is the leadership doing?
Are they truly creating anenvironment that they want?

(43:17):
If.
If they just think back aboutlike when I was in the position
because they grew to thisposition most likely, or even if
they were in a different firmand came here and was like.
You know, at some point we allhad to start.
Right?
And my biggest coaching tip isunderstand human nature.
So a lot of times I think peoplesay, oh, it's culturally

(43:38):
different, or maybe it's agedifferent, or gender different,
or whatever.
No, no, no, no.
Get yes and no.
Where you can be super effectiveand kind of have a shortcut is
understanding human nature.
And so my favorite shortcut isMaslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
If you can just understand thatwe, this is what a human needs

(44:01):
and the best you can to be ableto provide.
Some of the things we've beentalking about, I see that you
are getting mastery.
I see that you are, you know,really gifted at this.
This is like your purpose.
This is what you're good at.
I.
you feel part of a culture.
We see your needs, we care foryou, feel supported, you feel
secure, like that is yourshortcut to human motivation and

(44:23):
influence.

Austin McNair (44:24):
Man, we are getting so much like deep
insight here.
I, I love this, Jen.
Okay, the next one on the listis.
Is a clear articulation andconsistent reinforcement of core
values.

Jen Hamilton (44:38):
Ooh, it's a good one.
Okay, I'm gonna go three.
I think people underestimatecore values.
and like we said, this isoftentimes where you see words
on the wall.
Um, core values aren't anexercise you do on a Saturday
during a retreat and be like,these words sound great, you
know, it's truly, look.
Yes, I've heard people

Joe Pope (45:00):
I'm sure, uh, that had to have come from experience,
but go ahead.

Jen Hamilton (45:04):
Um, what I, the exercise I do, if someone
doesn't have core values or wereally realize they're just not
living their core values, theexercise we do is very, very,
simple and very, very powerful,especially with the leadership
team or maybe the whole team, ifit's a smaller organization is,
think about those people thatyou just.

(45:27):
Love and would love to clone inyour organization.
Right.
And what are some of theirqualities?
What are some of the things,when you think of those people,
what are those things they sortof have in common?
And then you ask the secondquestion, which is, think of
those people who are like, canwe just fire them fast?
And like, why are they evenhere?
And think about what is the,they have in common, their
qualities, the way they, theirbehavior, the way they thought.

(45:51):
And write the, then write theopposite of that.
And you're gonna see those twolists line up nicely.
I haven't had a time where thereisn't like, whoa, that's so
cool.
Look at how they overlap.
What you have done as a group,you've define what truly fits
here and it's gonna be differentfor every organization, but it,
once you know what is our core,who we are, how we behave, how

(46:13):
we work together, it makes adifference for everything in how
you hire.
How you do performance reviews,how you fire, how you decide
everything else.
You know, like based on our corevalues, are these the right
clients for us?
Is this the right team memberfor us?
I.
Is this the right social eventfor us?
You know, Is this the rightcareer path for us?

(46:35):
It, it just should be part ofyour guardrails and making your
decisions on what you do as afirm, as your core, as your core
values.
That's the power of core values.
Not just like picking names,'cause you're told you're
supposed to have core values.

Mary Blanche (46:49):
Is there like a magic number of of core values?

Jen Hamilton (46:52):
an excellent question.
One of my, um, fun little gamesI like to play, which is kind of
what we're doing here.
Ironically, I didn't even thinkabout this.
So I like to take a larger listand combine them.
You can hear me combining'em aswe go along.
Like those two things gotogether.
So I'd rather have a long list.
I think, oh, I did this retreatin, um.

(47:15):
October and it was like, I thinkthey literally had like 76
things, right?
'cause we had so many people andI was able to bring it down to
seven and then I made them pickfive.
I like three to five.
but what I find is why I say Ilike to categorize things is
because it gives more of thedefinition.

(47:35):
When we start to see what aredifferent versions of sort of
the same thing.
Um, so I'd say get the, get thewhole thing out there and then
just look for thosecommonalities, bring'em
together.
Having your top three ofanything is very helpful.
I.
So I don't like to go more thanfive, but still, even then,
force yourself to pick your topthree because it's easy to

(47:57):
remember three and, And you canhave fun with it too.
You can recognize around yourcore values, but at once the
they're clear and people aretruly embodying them and
understanding them.
It makes it much easier for youall to be rowing on the, in the
same way.

Joe Pope (48:14):
and as long as you've done all those things, then we
can put them on the wall.

Jen Hamilton (48:18):
Yes, I will let you.

Joe Pope (48:21):
Okay.

Jen Hamilton (48:22):
Great question Joe.

Austin McNair (48:23):
All right.
Well that leaves the last spothere, right smack dab In the
middle we have the final option,which was continuous learning
and growth ecosystem.

Jen Hamilton (48:38):
You know what?
I'm glad that is above thecareer path.
'cause I think some people thinkthose are the same thing.
And I'm also glad it's separate.
It is different.
Um.
It, it, oh, see, this is where Iwanna combine things.
I would say it's a bullet pointunder that supportive and
inclusive team environment,right?
Part of supporting that is thatwe all have a desire to continue

(48:59):
to learn and to grow.
And so to be able to really, um,understand.
Especially in fields like wehave where expertise is, is
rewarded.
You want them to be continuingto learn and grow.
And I will say, just because Ijust said that expertise is
rewarded, this should not belimited to technical skillset.

(49:25):
Your learning and growthecosystem needs to be eq,
emotional intelligence,leadership, you know, just all
of those things for them trulyto grow.

Mary Blanche (49:35):
What advice would you give to a, a business leader
who's thinking about, um,starting some sort of
professional development programand they're not currently doing
anything?

Jen Hamilton (49:46):
I always like to, you could probably hear this
too, from the, the clientexperience.
I like to listen for thecomplaints first, so we're in
the same kind of vein.
Where is the team complaints?
About and what are those themesso that we can do some learning
development around that.
And I don't just mean about theteam, it could be about

(50:07):
leadership, right?
What is leadership complainingabout?
The team, team, about theleadership, about the each
other.
We're gonna start to identifywhere are our weak points, and
it can be technical and it canbe, uh, essentially that
emotional intelligence as well.
So I like to, Always, uh, solveat the root cause.

(50:28):
So if we can start to see thosecommonalities, those patterns
around what's the, the culturereally just breaking points,
then we can build someintentional learning and
development around that.
You'll get much more from it ifyou kind of fill in the cracks
of what's breaking around us.

(50:48):
Um, and then the next learningand development can build on
something that's strongerinstead of, you know, kind of
patchwork, quilting and puttingthese pieces together without
intention.

Mary Blanche (50:58):
Yeah, that's great advice.

Austin McNair (50:59):
All right, well, two rounds down.
Jen, what was that word you saidat the beginning of the episode?
You were like, scared andexcited, scared, excited.
Well, I, I feel like you're, uh,crushing.
You're knocking it outta thepark here.
These rankings seem to be liningup, you know, well, with what,
what you, what, what you kind offelt, you know, at the end of
the rounds.
Does that hold true for companyculture?

(51:19):
You feel good about the list?

Jen Hamilton (51:21):
I'm feeling pretty good.
I'm feeling pretty good.
Yeah.
And now you set me up to totallytank.

Austin McNair (51:28):
That's right.
That's right.
And not, not, not only, uh, wwe, we we're gonna add a little
extra flavor to this one becausewe are, we're running out of
time.
We want to, we wanna make surewe can get through everything.
Um, how about for this lastround, round three, business
intelligence, why don't we do alittle bit of a lightning round?

Jen Hamilton (51:47):
Okay.

Austin McNair (51:47):
do, we'll get, we'll get producer John, John,
throw in the, the thunder andlightning for us.
Boom.
There it was.
Okay.
At some point I want the abilityto hit the sound

Joe Pope (51:57):
You need a soundboard,

Austin McNair (51:58):
I, I want the soundboard.
Okay, Jen.
So business intelligence, um,why don't we go through these
quickly and then kind of roundout the list at the end and, and
see what you think.
Does that sound

Jen Hamilton (52:09):
Okay.

Austin McNair (52:10):
All right.

Jen Hamilton (52:10):
do my best

Austin McNair (52:11):
So number one on the list here is defining clear
measurable KPIs for alldepartments.

Jen Hamilton (52:21):
Two,

Austin McNair (52:23):
Two, it is for the clear and measurable KPIs.
All right, number two, investingin a robust CRM system.

Jen Hamilton (52:35):
Okay.
I'm surrounded by marketers.
I'm gonna put three.

Joe Pope (52:39):
Thank you for throwing the bone

Austin McNair (52:41):
sounds like a biased

Jen Hamilton (52:42):
even if I wasn't, but I do know better.

Austin McNair (52:45):
I, I want to, I want to put a pin in that one
and come back to it.

Joe Pope (52:49):
Roro robust is the key word there, but yeah, I agree.
Let's, let's keep going.

Austin McNair (52:53):
Next on the list is utilizing data analytics to
identify growth opportunities.

Jen Hamilton (53:00):
Five.

Austin McNair (53:02):
Five.
All right.

Jen Hamilton (53:06):
Oh no.

Austin McNair (53:07):
On the list, conducting regular client
profitability analysis.

Jen Hamilton (53:14):
Oh one.

Joe Pope (53:19):
Oh wow.

Mary Blanche (53:20):
I love that.

Austin McNair (53:21):
All right.
Hold on.
We're gonna have to pause thelightning round for a second.
I know MB wants to ask a followup question on that one.

Mary Blanche (53:29):
Uh, I'm, I'm just wondering like what your thought
process is there?
'cause I agree with you, but I,um, I'm almost like, say more.

Jen Hamilton (53:37):
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So one thing we didn't talkabout is that career I started
out of, um.
College well went into was as aCPA.
So profitability is reallyimportant to me.
what I think is a real problem,and it can basically end in a
firm or an organization, is notrealizing that we're profitable.

(54:02):
And so from a service line pointof view, or from an individual
point of view or a type ofclient, this can make or break a
firm.
So that's part of why I put itat the top, is that at the end
of the day, this is the, this isthe number that pays the bills
and keeps paying them.

Austin McNair (54:21):
We can, we can nce here with the lightning
round.
That was, yeah, but I think, Ifeel, you know, that was number
one.
We had to kind of pause therefor a second.
All right.
Lightning round is back on.
We've got three more optionshere.
So Jen, next one isstandardizing operational
processes.

Jen Hamilton (54:38):
You're saying this to?
Oh.
okay.
We.

Austin McNair (54:42):
All right.
Number four.
It is.
Okay.
And then we've got tracking,employee utilization and
productivity.

Jen Hamilton (54:54):
I'm afraid of what I'm gonna leave for number
seven, but we're gonna go six.

Joe Pope (54:57):
we had an entire, like, segment of one of our
previous episodes, Jen, on thatvery topic, I, I being the
person who says I don't reallywant to fill out a time sheet
and, and be our COO, if youwill, telling me why I need to
fill out a time sheet.

Austin McNair (55:13):
So Jen, that leaves for the seventh pick
here, conducting post projectreviews to capture lessons
learned.

Jen Hamilton (55:23):
Okay.
Okay.

Austin McNair (55:25):
All right.

Jen Hamilton (55:25):
have put it in number, like super in the top,
super important.
Um, I.
it's part of that growthenvironment, right?
That growth culture.

Joe Pope (55:34):
Mm-hmm.

Jen Hamilton (55:35):
Um, I can live with it being a little bit
lower.

Austin McNair (55:40):
All right.
Well, hey, congratulations formaking it through the lightning
round there.
That was good.
We, you know, we don't like toput the pressure on our guests
too much, but you've beenhandling the pressure, uh, all
episode.
Tell us, uh, kind of wrap thisup for us on business
intelligence.
What do you think of the list?
Anything really stand out to youother than what we already
talked about with the, theclient profitability?

Jen Hamilton (56:00):
So I think, you know, overall, I would say, say
this, if you are having troublewith productivity, it's probably
this list.
We, we can't really be asproductive if we don't know what
we're doing, what results it'scausing, and if we have
randomness of like people justkind of doing things their own

(56:21):
way.
So it, it is, I like to saythat, um, profitability is
determined by productivity ofour team, especially in a
service-based business.
Like it's all about our people.
So overarching, I think thatmight change things a little
bit, but the overall messagefeels really good of like, we've
got to know that what we'redoing as a business is.

(56:46):
Causing profitability in ouroperations is not just gonna
fake profitability by throwingin some other numbers and keep
measuring all of the thingsaround that and having systems
that keep us, Knowing what to dowith our job, whether it's a
process.
I love what you said about thatrobust, not just a CRM.

(57:08):
Robust is a very big differencebetween like what most CRMs I
see is it truly using the toolswe have around

Joe Pope (57:16):
That's right.

Jen Hamilton (57:17):
us better.

Austin McNair (57:20):
Well, Jen, we squeezed so many like great
insights out of that session youdid.
Um, I feel like this is a realendorsement for us coming back
to this game in the future.
I mean, that was, um, really,really well done.
We're so grateful that you wereable to join us on this episode
of, of Spiraling Up.
where can people learn moreabout you, get in touch with
you, tell people how they can,uh, follow what, what you're

(57:43):
talking about and what, what,what kind of things, ways they
can connect with you.

Jen Hamilton (57:47):
Well, sure.
If you.
wanna know more geeky stuffabout operations, um, you can
tell I geek out about this.
Hamilton COOs is a plural.com.
That's my website and I have allkinds of little videos.
And tricks if you, if you areokay with this kind of
personality, you're gonna see iton videos too.
Free videos, free training roundtables where we do come together

(58:10):
as peers.
All, all complimentary becauseat the end of the day, we gotta
start by supporting each other.

Austin McNair (58:17):
Excellent.
Well, for Jen, Joe, myself, MaryBlanche, thank you to all the
listeners who've made it here tothe end of the episode.
If you haven't done so yet, makesure you subscribe to the
YouTube channel.
If you're watching on YouTube,hit the like button.
Uh, or if you're listening onApple, Spotify, or any other
audio platform, leave us areview.

(58:38):
Uh, this is still a new podcastand we are gonna continue to
find more.
Amazing, intelligent expertslike Jen to come on and join us
and to have fun so that we cancontinue to learn and grow
together in the space ofprofessional services, uh,
branding, marketing, businessdevelopment operations.
We're, we're talking about itall.
That's what we do on spiralingup.

(58:59):
So thank you for listening andwe will see you on the next one.
Thank you everybody.