April 9, 2025 • 48 mins
How do High Growth professional services firms go to market today? Download the 2025 High Growth Study to find out: https://www.hingemarketing.com/highgrowth
In today's episode of Spiraling Up, Austin, Joe, and MB look at the cringy side of LinkedIn, exploring some of the most awkward moments on the platform. Then, they welcome podcast expert John Tyreman to debunk common myths about podcasting in professional services, like:
- Myth #1: Podcasts don't work in professional services
- Myth #2: You need a huge audience to start a podcast
- Myth #3: Only charismatic personalities can be successful hosts
- Myth #4: Creating ROI from a podcast is impossible
- Myth #5: Podcasting is a fad that will soon fade away
Connect with John Tyreman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johntyreman/
Visit the Red Cedar Marketing website: https://www.redcedarmarketing.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Austin McNair (00:01):
In today's episode of Spiraling Up, we'll
take a look at the cringing yourside of LinkedIn, and then we're
talking to podcast expert JohnTyreman so that we can bust some
myths about podcasting in theprofessional services space.
Welcome everyone.
This is spiraling up with Hinge.
(00:28):
All right.
Welcome everybody to SpiralingUp the marketing podcast That
puts a playful twist on theUsual Marketing podcast.
If you're a marketer or abusiness leader in the
professional services world,then you are in the right place.
What do we do on this podcast?
Well, in each episode, we willcover notable stories in the
world of marketing, and thenwe'll invite some leading voices
(00:51):
in the industry to play games ortake on some hard challenges to
share.
Their honest insights on whatworks and what doesn't work in
the space of professionalservices marketing.
We are early in this podcastexperience.
I'm joined by my co-host, JoePope.
Mary Blanche Kramer.
How are you guys doing?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:10):
Doing good.
Doing good.
Austin McNair (01:12):
Mb, I know that you were just traveling in
London, England.
How was that trip?
I know that Joe and I areespecially jealous'cause Joe and
I are both big English PremierLeague fans.
So the only thing I'm thinkingabout is did you go see any
soccer games?
I'm assuming the answer's no.
But tell us what did.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:31):
It was great.
It was great.
We had so much fun.
Um, I do a trip every year with,uh, one of my best girlfriends
from, from growing up.
We just like a different placeevery year.
And this year was London.
Uh, so we had a great time.
Um, lots of shopping, retailtherapy, if you will.
Um, but we, we went to thetheater.
Um, so, uh, gotta see a play.
That was fun.
Did a
Joe Pope (01:50):
What play did you guys see?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:52):
Harry Potter
Joe Pope (01:53):
Yes,
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:54):
ER's child.
We were, um, big Harry Potternerds as kids.
so naturally we had to, we hadto just come full circle.
honestly, it was great.
Some of the, uh, like motionmechanics and kinda like little
tricks that they did.
Um, really cool, really coolstuff.
Um, we went to, we did a tour,like a double decker tour bus.
Ate at some great restaurants,beat bopped around, uh, did kind
(02:16):
of like an impromptu day trip toBelgium, which, uh, honestly was
probably my favorite part of thetrip.
Um, but yeah, it was a goodtime.
Austin McNair (02:22):
I love that.
Just being able to hop over toanother country real fast, hop
back, no big deal.
That's cool.
Awesome.
Well, I'm glad you got some,some r and r and some time to,
to, to refresh.
Welcome back, Joe.
Everything going good for you?
Joe Pope (02:35):
Yeah.
Uh, other than if you're talkingsoccer, my team lost in a very
tragic fashion.
Uh, and I thought you were gonnago there when you were teeing up
mb.
But, uh, you know, I think, Ithink it's great, you know, and
one thing mb that stands out tome, uh, and I know you've been a
big advocate for this and youtalk to some of our other
colleagues and so forth, is theidea of taking these types of.
(02:56):
Impromptu trips or impromptuactivities involving yourself in
like this r and r type ofprocess.
So you can rest, refresh, andthen come back and ready to
roll.
Uh, it's so cool to, you know,even just hear this rundown of
how you guys have had it such agood time doing this.
Austin McNair (03:11):
Well, uh, I imagine that today's pivotal
story does not have a lot to dowith your trip in London.
Hopefully you were able to stayoff the internet and
specifically maybe stay off ofLinkedIn.
Uh, why don't you tell us aboutwhat our pivotal story is about
today?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (03:27):
Sure.
All right.
So Austin, you sent around a, afunny video earlier in the week,
and that's really what sparkedthe topic for today's pivotal
story.
So today we're gonna be talkingall things LinkedIn.
Now, as professional servicesmarketers, we know the
importance that LinkedIn playsas a social platform, but in pop
culture, LinkedIn has been knownto have a bit of a funny
(03:49):
reputation, honestly.
Um, but before I say moreAustin, let's.
How about you pull up the videothat, that you sent around to,
to kind of kick us off here?
Austin McNair (03:57):
All right, let's, let's pull it up and, uh, take,
take a watch at this.
N/A (04:03):
Moved on within a week with my.
Best friend's mom, and at firstI was totally crushed, but the
more that I thought about it, Irealized that.
I had failed to conduct a propercompetitive analysis.
Here's how that heartbreaktaught me everything that I need
to know about B2B sales.
One.
(04:23):
I assumed I was the only vendorin the pipeline.
Nope, Barbara was there.
Two, I neglected to assess thecompetitive landscape.
Sometimes your CU customer iswanting to go with a more mature
option.
Somebody that's been around forlonger, like your best friend's
mom.
Great salespeople know thatdeals don't go cold without
(04:44):
reason, and if they suddenlywalk away, chances are they
found a better alternative andsometimes it's Barbara hashtag
B2B sales.
Hashtag Know your Market.
Hashtag Love where you work.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (04:58):
I had to get in that third hashtag.
Joe Pope (05:00):
It's always that one.
Austin McNair (05:03):
Okay.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (05:07):
Oh, that's good.
So I mean, it's, it's true,right?
People can, they can be a littleodd on LinkedIn sometimes.
And you know, I thinkparticularly here, the stretch
to drawing on real worldexamples like this one, you
know, they are, they aresometimes over the top, but, uh,
what do you guys think is, isLinkedIn cringe?
(05:27):
Um, Joe, let's start with you.
What's your take?
Joe Pope (05:29):
there's a channel on Instagram, uh, called Best of
LinkedIn that has become a, amainstay in the dms of I.
Believe the three of us insharing some of the best
examples in terms of some of themore outrageous ways that folks
are expressing themselves on theplatform.
Uh, one that stood out to merecently was a gentleman named
(05:49):
Peter, uh, whose title, andobviously I'm not gonna go any
further than that, but his titleis Search Engine Optimization
Specialist and Freelancer.
And, uh, it starts with, I havea Secret.
Okay.
Let's, let's hear it Peter.
Most people are not even awarethat this is a real thing, but
since 2015, I have struggledwith peeing in public restrooms.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (06:11):
Stop it.
Joe Pope (06:13):
Three sentences in, and I know more about Peter than
I think anybody would ever wannaknow about Peter, but yes, he
did find a way to tie it into arecent trip to Europe, which is
why I think this stood out tome.
And I'm absolutely not gonna askyou about your, uh, your
preferences mb, but I think ingeneral, the challenge with
Peter and the fact that the, hehas to reference.
(06:35):
Urination as a part of abusiness networking site is
already showing something thatshould just never exist.
I don't even think it shouldexist on any social media
platform, let alone LinkedIn.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (06:46):
It's a bridge too far.
Joe Pope (06:48):
It's just very far.
I.
Austin McNair (06:49):
think that's the point.
I mean, I think you know, one ofthe reasons this, this story.
Stood out to us as like, okay,so this is a tension that I
think we need to live in asprofessionals and especially
professionals in theprofessional services marketing
space.
Like yes, you know, being onLinkedIn does have, its kind of
like awkward moments andsometimes you have to be a
(07:10):
little bit more enthusiasticabout work stuff.
Then maybe you really are, youknow, sometimes that's the case.
But I mean, the bottom line isthat in the professional
services world, people are usingit.
For meaningful networkingexperiences.
They're doing it to sharethought leadership.
And if you can build a communityof people in your space that
(07:31):
can't be more authentic and likebring real value and expertise
to the space we've seen with ourclients, with ourselves and from
the data that actually it, it,it is a valuable marketing
strategy that can't really beignored.
So if I actually go to the.
The data from our most recenthigh growth, study.
(07:51):
number two on the list ofmarketing techniques that are
used most often by the fastestgrowing firms is networking on
social media.
And then only just below thatis, Actually promoting thought
leadership on social media aswell.
And this isn't any social media.
We also ask like, what platformsare you using?
And LinkedIn is like thedominant one.
(08:11):
So there's not really a questionabout what our data is
indicating or saying there.
LinkedIn is a space that reallymatters.
I mean, what, so, you know, withthat, with that being said, how
do you guys handle that tensionbetween, you know, the
cringiness of LinkedIn, um, withthe actual professional value
that we know it has?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (08:31):
Yeah.
Well, Austin, let me go back toone of the points you just said
about the authenticity piecebecause I, I think that's so
important and such.
Just a, a key factor in, in howyou do just that.
Um,'cause it's at the very coreof.
Building these meaningfulprofessional relationships and
establishing your, you know,your own strong personal brand.
(08:51):
'cause people, you know, they,they want that transparency.
They, they appreciate honestyand this can make them more
inclined to, to want to engagewith you.
And so then when you compareauthenticity with educational
meaningful content people, theybegin to start to see you as a
valuable resource.
You know, someone that they cantrust for advice or for
(09:13):
collaboration, which as we allknow, naturally translates into
opportunities, whether it's, youknow, a job offer, a
partnership, a mentorship,
Joe Pope (09:23):
some of these platforms can be their own worst
enemy though, with that MBI,LinkedIn was purchased by
Microsoft in 2016, I believe.
Something like 26, 20$5 billion.
Makes sense.
Software company is trying toget in on the game, especially
with meta Facebook buying upeverything and Google already
having their natural leg up interms of search engine and so
(09:45):
forth.
But one feature that's.
Stood out and, you know, this isabsolutely driven by Microsoft
and their AI models is, LinkedInis offering to provide AI
services for your posts.
So like type your, type your,uh, thoughts into this and
LinkedIn will produce an AIprint ready solution for you to
(10:05):
get yourself out there in thenetworking space.
And, and all I can think aboutevery time I see that is.
Cringe.
It's like this is not authentic.
It's not something that isalmost certainly gonna be tied
back to the individual, andthat's what these platforms are
supposed to be.
It's this collection ofindividuals connecting and
conversating with each other.
Austin McNair (10:26):
I, I can give an example of for the balance
between being authentic, butalso like staying professional
and kind of creating somevalues.
So at the beginning of the year,um.
My wife and I welcomed our thirdkid into the home.
on the professional side, hingewas releasing our brand new
research report.
We were also launching a brandnew podcast, there was like all
(10:49):
this stuff.
Ha.
And it was the, the beginning ofthe year and you have like those
New Year's resolution, likefuzzies kind of going.
And so like, I made a post aboutthat where I was just like, you
know, carrying a lot of positiveenergy and kind of like.
You know, all about newbeginnings kind of into the
space.
And I can tell you that sincethat post, and I was a little,
you know, kind of apprehensiveabout sharing that on LinkedIn,
(11:09):
I've had like three or fourpeople in my professional
network, clients, prospectsactually bring up like, hey,
like I saw that, you know, youhad, you know, you guys had a
new baby and stuff like that.
And it, it didn't feel weird orawkward.
It was like.
Great.
I'm glad I could shed a littlebit of light into kind of who I
am as a person, but alsocelebrate some of the stuff that
(11:29):
we have going on professionallyas well.
I think that was, that would bemy example Any other final
thoughts from you guys on this?
Joe Pope (11:35):
I, you guys want me to share one more?
Best of LinkedIn.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (11:37):
I do, yes.
Austin McNair (11:38):
Yeah, let's do one more.
Why not?
People want to see it.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (11:41):
These are my
Joe Pope (11:41):
The give.
Give the people what they want.
All right.
This one's from Jason.
Uh, according to best ofLinkedIn, this was two days ago.
We're a third connection.
Uh, here's what happened In thesix months after I got locked
out of the house by my ex.
I moved in with my parents, lost10 pounds, and I picked up my
belongings a month later.
(12:02):
Then two months after that, hestarted seeing a therapist and
feels better with the directionthings are going.
Take a guess what Jason's titleis underneath his name.
Austin McNair (12:13):
Does that have to do with B2B sales?
Joe Pope (12:15):
No, it's a men's divorce coach.
Austin McNair (12:18):
Ouch.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (12:19):
Oh man.
Also, I love how your voiceimmediately changed as you
started to read his post
Austin McNair (12:25):
uh, well we've got a great segment coming up
here with our friend JohnTyreman.
If you are a professional thathas thought about, ah, should
our business start a newpodcast, should we consider this
for experts that work at ourcompany, should we think about
maybe advertising on podcasts?
I think you're gonna get a lotof value out of our conversation
coming up with John, so staytuned.
(12:49):
Hey Joe Mb, do you guys smellthat
Joe Pope (12:52):
No, what is it?
Austin McNair (12:55):
it is not the smell of this not so great
Brazilian coffee that I'mdrinking?
You know what it is?
It is the smell of freshresearch, baby.
I'm talking about.
The high growth study.
Okay.
If you've listened to some otherepisodes, you know, we've been
talking about this in the middleof every episode, we reference
(13:17):
this data in every episode.
That's because every year weconduct this research on the
professional servicesmarketplace.
And this year it was the 10thedition of the studies, a huge
milestone.
Um, I mean, over the years, Joe,what is it?
50,000?
Different companies, that
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (13:37):
A.
Austin McNair (13:38):
in climbing, uh, organizations that we've
researched over the years.
This year we had a great sample.
If you want to know what thefastest growing professional
services firms are doing withtheir marketing and with their
business development, what dothey gotta do mb What do they
gotta go do?
What do they gotta go download
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (13:55):
But high growth study.
Austin McNair (13:56):
The high growth study, it's
Joe Pope (13:57):
No one does it dead or baby.
Austin McNair (13:59):
No one does it better.
So go to hingemarketing.com/high growth and
you'll get the executive summaryof the research report.
Totally for free.
And if you want to dive a littlebit deeper, there are industry
specific reports, consulting,architecture, engineering and
construction, technology andsoftware.
(14:20):
We got you.
It's all there.
We've got six different industryreports on sale if you want to
cut a layer deeper, and thoseare available as well.
So we hope you pick those up.
We hope you download theexecutive summary no matter
what.
Let's get back to the episode.
All right.
I wanna welcome to the SpiralingUp Podcast, Mr.
John Tyreman.
(14:41):
John is a professional servicesmarketer and podcast strategist.
With over 10 years of experiencehelping firms win new business,
he leverages his expertise inpodcasting to help businesses
build trust with buyers,showcase their expertise, and
generate content.
He currently hosts two podcasts,breaking Biz Dev and Podcasting
(15:05):
in Professional Services, and Idon't think it will be hard for
people to put one and onetogether.
John was definitely very helpfulin helping us make this podcast
a reality.
So John, we're really excited tohave you here on the podcast
with us today to talk about allthings.
Um, podcasting and professionalservices firms.
But first I want to ask you, wejust had a segment, uh, where we
(15:29):
were talking about, uh, howLinkedIn can sometimes be a
space, uh, that can be a littlebit cringey.
Um, I know you spend a lot oftime on LinkedIn.
I'm sure you've seen some stuffover the years.
We wanted to ask you before wedive into today's segment,
what's the CRST thing you'veseen on LinkedIn?
Come on, man.
Tell us the real deal.
What have you, what have you,what have you seen?
John Tyreman (15:49):
Man, I've seen some really creative things on
LinkedIn and, and, uh, you know,uh, hats off to, uh, Logan
Lyles.
I think he's one, he's a greatcreator on there, but I.
There have been some reallycringe things that I've seen a
few years ago.
Like there was a bunch of techlayoffs and there was this one
crying, CEO, and he would, youknow, did the selfie video of
(16:12):
him crying because he had to letgo, all of it, like half of his
employees.
And that was super cringe.
He went viral and I'm sure thathe probably, you know, found
some opportunities from it justby here, happenstance and, but
that was super cringe.
Probably the most that I've comeacross.
Austin McNair (16:30):
Yeah.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (16:30):
cr.
John Tyreman (16:31):
I'm sure that someone will probably like beat
that at some point, but
Joe Pope (16:35):
He is gonna get tagged in some sort of video that we
put out for this.
Now he's gonna come find you,John.
Now it's so funny you, you usethat example and I immediately,
it just comes straight to mymind.
I remember watching that.
I might even interacted with youabout it too.
'cause this, I mean, this was.
And years ago, the during theCovid layoffs.
But yeah, I can't, I can't getthat fit.
(16:57):
How could you sit there and evenjust turn the camera on to watch
yourself do that?
It's beyond me.
John Tyreman (17:03):
I mean, I understand being vulnerable, but
that's just a little forced, youknow?
Mary-Blanche Krae (17:06):
Premeditated.
Austin McNair (17:09):
All right, team.
Well, I've got a question foryou.
Do you guys have your lab coatsready?
How about your safety goggles?
Because it is time to playmarketing Myth Busters.
All right.
Yeah.
You know, you remember MythBusters Beloved TV franchise.
Uh, and similar to the show, uh,we're gonna dive into the world
(17:32):
of marketing folklore toseparate fact from fiction.
John, as our guest, you, we aregonna present you with this
challenge, right?
We're gonna present you withsome common myths or some widely
held objections that people havein the space of podcasting, in
the marketing world.
And it's your challenge, man,uh, to use your expertise data,
(17:55):
real world examples.
Experience, whatever you've gotin the bag of tricks to either
confirm or debunk these claims.
Do you think you've got what ittakes to play marketing
MythBusters with us?
John Tyreman (18:06):
The first image that comes to mind is that that
bald guy with a mustache, right?
And so I feel like I fit thepart of
Austin McNair (18:14):
Yeah.
John Tyreman (18:14):
now.
I'm ready.
Let's go, man.
Austin McNair (18:17):
Awesome.
Well, uh, mb I think you've gotthe prompts ready for today.
We've got some great things to,to, to, to tee up for John here.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (18:26):
Yep.
All right, well, let's dive intoit then.
I've got a couple good ones herefor you.
All right, let's start with thisone, John.
Some people say podcasts.
They're just entertainment.
They're great for storytellingor comedy, but they don't really
work for serious B2B orprofessional services companies.
What say you.
John Tyreman (18:47):
Okay.
All right.
So I'm gonna try to bust thismyth.
Well, first of all, I just wantto call out that storytelling is
a, a critical part of newbusiness development, and I
think there's a lot that we canlearn from storytelling and
apply to business.
But that as an aside, um,business podcasts are the fourth
most popular genre of podcasts.
(19:08):
Um, and that they representabout 8.9% of all podcasts.
So I think it's a after, likesociety and culture, arts and
entertainment, I wanna say thoseare like the top three.
And then business podcasts arelike the next biggest one.
And um, so I think that in ofitself, just to show you that
there, there is a lot ofbusiness podcasts out there.
(19:31):
Um, but to your point, MaryBlanche is like, okay, well is
there demand for it?
Right.
You know, are people actuallylistening to that?
Um, so if we dig down a littlebit further, there was, and we
were just talking about LinkedInactually, they, they put out a
study of I think like 2,700users and they found that 44% of
(19:52):
department heads, VPs owners,and C-Suite individuals listen
to podcasts.
So I think that that, you know,if we look at it through the
lens of, um, the most popularprofessional networking
platform, I think that just goesto show that there is a market,
there is demand for businesspodcasts.
Joe Pope (20:13):
Part of that myth I think is just generated by how
people utilize and what theirexperience is with the platform.
Uh, one of the things that hasstood out to me, I.
And I think, uh, Austin, youalready teed it up.
John was a big piece of how wecame to put this podcast
together.
I think it was originallygenerated over, uh, Tex-Mex and
Beers, right?
Like all good ideas.
(20:34):
Uh, but I was one of these folksright, where I, I remember John
specifically.
I was.
Questioning, gosh, I just can'tget into business podcasts.
I, I, you know, I consume blogs,I go to webinars, I do all those
types of things, and I struggleto make those connections, uh,
for the reasons ofentertainment, authenticity, and
those types of elements.
The storytelling piece that youjust referenced, that's what
(20:55):
stands out to me, right?
Because there's a differencebetween having a story to tell
and just standing in front of amicrophone, or sitting, I guess,
in front of a microphone.
John Tyreman (21:04):
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Um, and, and I think that'swhere, you know, you can draw
from your experience and you cantell stories of your, uh, and,
and I think that shows if, ifwe're talking about professional
services, you know, you're inthe business of expertise.
So the extent to which you canreference stories, um, that show
(21:25):
that you have helped a certainclientele in the past and that
you, you, you know what to lookfor and you can guide them
around corners, you know, thatthat goes a long way, especially
in a, in a medium, like apodcast where it's a little bit
more informal and it's a littlebit more conversational.
Joe Pope (21:44):
Mm-hmm.
John Tyreman (21:44):
I think it, it just, it's, it's like kinda like
hanging out with at, at happyhour with folks that are in your
industry.
Right?
That's how I look at it.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (21:55):
Yeah, I feel that way too.
So I'm kind of, was on theopposite side of the coin from
Joe initially when we startedtalking about this, because for
me, podcasts have, you know, fora while now have just been such
an integrated part of my, myweek over week.
You know, I do have my favoritebusiness podcast I listen to,
whether that's, you know, I onlyhave 10 minutes, I'm gonna pick
up the kids from dance or if I'mon a trip and I get to listen
(22:16):
to, you know, maybe like bingethree episodes in a row.
But, um, just find so much valuein them.
Um.
John Tyreman (22:22):
What's your favorite show?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (22:24):
it's called the All In podcast.
John Tyreman (22:26):
The All In podcast,
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (22:27):
Yeah, it's a bunch of PE guys and they just
talk about what's going on in,in tech, it, what they're up to,
and they're um, they callthemselves the besties, um, so
that you can tell they're allreally good friends.
And so like, you
Austin McNair (22:39):
Ah.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (22:40):
you'll get 10, 15 minutes in and you're
just kind of laughing along withjust like their banter in
general.
So kind of speaking to a littlebit of what you were saying too,
John, I just.
You know, you just kind of feellike you're, you're almost right
there with them and happy hour,just kinda, you know, listening
in.
So.
Austin McNair (22:56):
feel like I've listened to that one too.
That's the billionaire besties.
Right?
They're all like the SiliconValley billionaires.
Yeah, I, I that Um, John, I'm,you know, I think a lot of the
myths that we'll talk abouttoday, um, they come from a
place of hesitation, right?
What would you say to the, partof like the role of how podcasts
don't just have to stay onpodcast platforms, but that,
(23:18):
episodes can be content thatcontributes to other parts of
your, marketing funnel marketingchannels that you're, you're
doing, I know that when we wereworking with you, that was kind
of a theme that you kept talkingabout.
I think it's really importantthat people get to that.
I don't think we have any kindof questions that they're gonna
touch on that topic.
So I'm, I'm just kind of curiouslike I.
W how do you normally frame thatup for people and like, handling
(23:40):
the objection.
John Tyreman (23:41):
I subscribe to the Challenger Sale mentality of
know you like you, trust you.
Especially in professionalservices where buyers first they
need to know you, then they needto like you, then they need to
trust you in order to, um, dobusiness with you.
And so the way that I look at itis to get to know someone first,
you need to become familiar withthem, right?
(24:03):
So familiarity is kind of astepping stone to trust.
And so if you're talking aboutwhat, what I call content
distribution, that's what Ilike.
That's the term that I use totalk about what you're talking
about.
Austin, I think I.
And, um, on my podcast,podcasting and professional
services, I interviewed, uh,Ross Simmons.
(24:25):
And, um, he has this mantra,create Once, distribute Forever.
It's the name of one of hisbooks that he just wrote, and
it's this concept of, you know,you, you record a podcast or you
create a long form article or aPDF or something and that's your
core content that you can then.
Repurpose, you know, copy andpaste a paragraph from the text
(24:46):
and that becomes a LinkedInpost, right?
Or in a podcast sense, you know,create a long form, 45, 50
minute conversation, and thenchop that up into 10 different
clips that you're pushing out onsocial media.
And so then that signals, youknow, folks that are on
LinkedIn, for example, since wewere just talking about that,
(25:08):
they're scrolling through theirfeed and then they see your face
on a screen.
They hear your voice and they'relike, oh, okay.
You know, that's Austin, that'sJoe, that's mb.
And then a couple weeks later,they see it again and again and
again.
And then in a couple weeks theylisten to one of those video
shorts.
And then that captures theirattention so much that they
(25:30):
click through and listen to afull length podcast episode and
then they subscribe to it.
And so that's kind of the bridgebetween the familiarity to
knowing you to liking you.
And then when you have peoplethat subscribe to your show, you
can build trust with them overtime, through your
conversations, through the valuethat you provide to them, via
(25:51):
guests, via the topics you talkabout.
Um, so that's how I thinkcontent distribution overlays
into that trust equation.
Joe Pope (26:00):
Mm-hmm.
Austin McNair (26:00):
What's up next?
MB.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (26:02):
All right.
Let's see.
Next up.
Some people say that you need ahuge audience to start a
successful podcast.
John Tyreman (26:11):
Hmm.
That's the, that's the peopleare saying.
That's the myth.
We're gonna bust it up.
Alright.
So, um, I will say that podcastsare a phenomenal way to engage
your existing audience.
So if you have an existingaudience of email subscribers,
um, then a podcast is a naturaltransition to engage more deeply
(26:31):
with them.
That being said.
You can use a podcast toaccelerate your networking
growth.
So what I mean by that is, islike, do you wanna be a guest of
my podcast?
That is a much stronger offerthan, Hey, you wanna hop on an
intro call, you wanna hop on aZoom call?
So you're providing value to theother person as opposed to
(26:54):
asking for value, asking fortheir time.
You're saying, Hey, I'm, I'masking for your time, but I'm
gonna give you.
You know, a video of you talkingabout you.
Right?
So that's like, first of all,like, I think that because of
that, your connection rates aremuch higher with people that you
reach out to.
Um, those connections are muchdeeper because you're having
(27:15):
deeper conversations, right?
And you're promoting them.
You're putting value into that,that relationship.
And so like if you're playing onthe cognitive bias of
reciprocity, right?
With that upfront deposit intothat relationship.
So it, it's a way to accelerateyour networking growth.
I'll give you an example.
(27:36):
So, um, I'm working with afractional chief operating
officer, and he, it is a, um,EOS integrator and he wants to,
a referral source for him areEOS implementers.
So what we're gonna do is we'regonna go out and we're going to
network with these E Ossis we'recalling them and they, that is a
(27:59):
referral source, that's thetarget guest for the show.
So we want to put deposit valueinto those referral sources so
that they think of thisfractional COO and wanna refer
'em.
Joe Pope (28:10):
I was just gonna say an EOS for those who are running
to Google real quick is theentrepreneurial operating
system.
In a fairly honestly, fastgrowing way of how, especially
small businesses, uh, are, uh,uh, bringing into practice a
process that allows them to growquickly.
So I can see great synergieshere, especially if that's your
(28:32):
target audience and that's whoyou're trying to speak to in,
uh, in being able to kind oftalk around that experience,
that expertise.
John Tyreman (28:39):
Yeah, it's a, and so it's a faster way to network
with a key referral source,deposit relationships into them.
And then the strategy is, isthat he will be the first
fractional COO that they thinkof.
Joe Pope (28:52):
What did Mr.
Eeo s's, uh, net we'll sayvisibility look like before the
podcast?
What, what was he rocking interms of email subscribers, so
on and so forth?
John Tyreman (29:02):
It's a small email list, you know, a few hundred on
the, on an email list.
He's a, he's a fractional, um,chief operating officer, and he
wants to build a firm.
So he's, he's working with otherfractional COOs.
And then when he finds a goodfit, you know, he refers
business to them, but it's sortof a consortium.
Of these different fractionalexecutives.
(29:23):
So it's an interesting model andit's, it's cool how you know
these different solo businessowners are kind of working
together in that capacity.
Joe Pope (29:31):
What, what's growth looked like since you've
launched the podcast?
John Tyreman (29:34):
We launched it last week,
Joe Pope (29:35):
Oh, okay.
Sure.
All right.
Well, we'll have to, we'll haveto do like an overlay of this
video that says Results are in,or something like that.
We can get a Morey overview.
John Tyreman (29:45):
there you go.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (29:47):
All right, let's go to number three.
So only charismaticpersonalities can be successful
Podcast hosts.
John Tyreman (29:57):
Oh, I love this one because that is a myth, and
I hear that all the time, and,um, I, I would, I would say that
it's not entirely true Now,energetic, outgoing,
well-spoken, charismatic people,I.
Yes, like you could do amonologue, you could be on a
co-hosted commentary, you coulddo an interview series if you
(30:18):
can learn to shut up.
But, um, like there are otherpodcast structures for different
personality types.
So like, are you provocative andsnarky?
Are you really like, reallyfunny?
Do you like, you know, have likegood one-liners, zingers.
You know, be a co-host withanother expert or someone else
who's a little bit morestraight-laced.
Right?
(30:38):
And so to provide that kind oflike fire and ice or like
banter, um, maybe you're reallyintroverted and really curious
and inquisitive.
Run an interview series and askdamn good questions.
Right.
So like there's a podcaststructure for almost any
personality type.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (30:56):
This is about tailoring.
Tailoring to your strengths,
John Tyreman (30:59):
Exactly.
Yes.
Joe Pope (31:01):
Do you have an exercise?
You typically go through John tohelp identify what that is,
those strengths?
John Tyreman (31:05):
My typical sales process when I'm working with,
um, experts or marketers whowant to launch a podcast either
for themselves or for someonewithin their organization.
Uh, there is really a vibe checkthat goes on.
And it's, it's, it's not reallylike a personality test per se,
it's more of a feel thing.
(31:26):
But you know, you get to knowsomebody and you get to
understand their personality alittle bit and you can kind of
connect the dots and see, okay,this person would do really well
in these scenarios, under theseconditions, under this framework
with this supporting cast.
And then the vision kind ofcomes together.
'cause there's a lot ofdifferent ingredients that go
into.
Launching a podcast as, as youall know, just from going
(31:49):
through this experience,
Austin McNair (31:51):
john, uh, when we were, when we were writing the,
the Visible expert book, we, wedid like a kind of a similar
thing, uh, adjacent to whatyou're saying about the
different types of personalitytypes being kind of different
types of, uh, podcast hosts.
We did something similar therewith, with kind of talking about
visible experts and how visibleexperts there could be different
kinds of visible experts.
(32:12):
Uh, I think the examples we usein the book.
Uh, we talk about the bridgebuilder.
So that's somebody who's kind ofbuild, building a bridge between
two different, uh, topics.
Um, the laser.
So that's usually like aspecialist, someone who's like,
highly, like, targeted on onelittle area.
Uh, the curator, which is likemaybe that role of like bringing
(32:33):
other experts into the fold andlike interviewing them.
Um, like I like that examplethat you used.
Um, then you have your firstmovers and your contrarians,
which I think maybe.
Of the different visible expertswe talk about tend to be the
ones with the most boisterouspersonalities, um, that could,
you know, make for good pod, youknow, podcast hosts or running a
good podcast.
(32:54):
Um, I just like the comparisonthere that, you know, you've
kind of figured out howimportant that is in terms of
designing a podcast for adifferent company like that.
Fitting it to the personalityreally.
Matters and makes a differenceto kind of the output and the
quality of it.
Um, when we're talking to peopleabout being a visible expert,
(33:15):
it's the same thing.
Like, what are your skill sets?
What kind of, you know, whatkind of way do you want to go to
the marketplace and talk aboutyour expertise.
So I love the parallels therethat, you know, what we saw with
the visible expert kind ofaligns with the podcasting angle
as well.
John Tyreman (33:29):
Well, and then to add on to that, Austin, I think
in the first visible expert bookit was, there was like those
three core skills, right?
Like writing, speaking, andnetworking.
And then you kind of like layeron from that.
It's like, okay, well if you'regood, really good at speaking,
I.
What kind of a speaker then lookat it through the lens of that
personality.
Are you more of a bridgebuilder, a laser, a curator?
(33:51):
First mover, contrarian, or the,like, the networking angle too.
Like I could see these bridgebuilders being, like really good
interview hosts and like, makingconnections with different
guests, whereas like thecurators could curate industry
news and then kinda likebroadcast it or present it or
add their own twist to it.
So there's, there's a lot ofdifferent ways that.
(34:11):
Experts can tap into theirexpertise and their personality
at the same time.
And that's like the combination,uh, that's what's so beautiful
about a podcast.
Austin McNair (34:21):
I love that.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (34:23):
Love that too.
All right.
Now I'm gonna go on to the nextone.
This is a, because this is agood one.
Um, all right.
Creating ROI from a podcast isnearly impossible and it's too
much work.
I.
John Tyreman (34:37):
Well, uh, you can get ROI from a podcast and there
are a number of different waysyou can realize that return on
investment.
So I'll give you one quickexample before we dive into some
more of the tangible things.
Okay.
One of my clients is in his latefifties.
(34:57):
He's actually turning 60 thismonth, and he does not want to
travel anymore to speakingengagements.
He, he's just tired of flyingall around the country, going to
these speaking gigs, and he'stry, has to pry speaking fees
from these associations.
And he's, he's done with it.
He's fed up with it.
So we launched a podcast, um,about six months ago and, um, he
(35:20):
recently.
Went to the biggest conferencein the country now the, it's the
Ground Transportation podcast.
And they, we recently did thislike challenge like, Hey, get a,
get a selfie with us on theshowroom floor and enter for a
chance to win a plug for yourbusiness on the podcast.
They were inundated with peopletrying to get selfies with them.
(35:42):
So much so that Ken, my client,he had to fake that he was on
the phone and like walk off thefloor.
And so I, it, long story short,like that was just kinda one
signal that the podcast ishelping him achieve that goal of
delivering his message in a waythat he doesn't have to do it at
(36:03):
those speaking events andspeaking engagements.
So if you're, you know, cutting.
Air airfare, right, is a formof, you know, cost cutting.
You know, you could look at thatas return on investment or the
time it takes to travel and, anddo that.
Um, I thought that was a reallyfunny story.
But, uh, if we get back to someof the more, like, typical like
(36:24):
ROI, like direct attribution,lead generation is the first
place that I would point to,right?
So referrals from guests thatyou have on.
The guests themselves on yourpodcast.
Um, after a few years, yourlisteners could become guests or
could become opportunities,right?
(36:44):
Hey, I've been listening to youfor years and the opportunity to
work with you just hasn't comeup.
But finally, like I'm in thisspace now where it makes sense
to work together.
Let's talk.
Joe Pope (36:55):
And that mirrors a lot of how we see some of these
other visibility tactics thatmake up marketing strategies pay
dividends too.
Right.
Especially that last one youreferenced.
It's in, you were talking aboutthe idea of trust building,
right?
And the idea that these arefolks that are getting to
experience you in a setting thatdoesn't feel overly salesy, that
(37:15):
doesn't feel like they're gonnahave to.
Hit ignore on a phone call thatthey're not quite wanting to do
because it doesn't really makesense for them yet, and yet they
just keep seeing it show up ontheir caller id.
Uh, so I, I, I feel that in, in,in entirely.
I think it also plays reallywell with what we're seeing in
the shifts.
In Google's algorithm and howpeople are using other tools or
(37:40):
tactics to make decisions.
So I, I, I think I've found away to reference SEO is dead in
some form or fashion on everypodcast we've done thus far.
Uh, which of course isoverblown, but.
The idea of SEO being a, justthe primary focus of groups, and
that's gonna just bring you theleads.
(38:00):
They're gonna keep rolling in.
Not so much.
People are leaning on generativeai.
They're leaning on othertactics.
They're trusting networkingvenues, whether it's.
Digital or in a traditionalsense, the floor taking selfies
with your guy.
Uh, so yeah, I, I can just seethat this is what part of that
diversification strategy wouldbe.
(38:20):
You just have to understand it'spart of a long game.
Uh, if there's not a direct,we're getting the guest, for
example, to be your businessopportunity or the networking
that you can potentially getfrom guests bringing and
referring other folks in.
John Tyreman (38:35):
So I want to, I want to touch on that because
yes, it is a long-terminvestment.
However, there are ways to, uh,kind of offset some of your
production costs.
So sponsorships are one avenueto do that, and especially with
business podcasts and in evensomewhat, even more so in
(38:58):
professional services where theaudiences are so niche and
narrow.
Sponsorships.
You know, value is in the eye ofthe beholder.
So if you are a professionalservices firm, let's say you're
an accounting firm and youlaunch a podcast and you want to
find ways to offset theproduction costs, to extend the
(39:18):
runway of your show so that youdo have that calendar time to be
able to prove return oninvestment in the form of leads.
Then you get a sponsor to offsetthat cost and that extends your
runway.
So maybe you partner with atechnology, or maybe it's like a
SaaS platform or like, you know,like a block or like a
blockchain ledger.
Maybe you're in a, a progressiveaccounting firm that wants to go
(39:41):
on the blockchain.
I don't know.
But um, that's kind of the pointis it can extend your runway.
Joe Pope (39:47):
So what you're saying is you can sponsor more than
golf tournaments.
John Tyreman (39:50):
Yes.
And you should.
Austin McNair (39:53):
I, I was actually having a conversation with a
client recently, um, and whenthe topic of podcasting came up,
I thought they were going in thedirection of talking about how
I.
They were thinking aboutstarting a podcast for their,
for their technology company,but what she was actually saying
was, no, she had their, theircompany had actually
aggressively gone out.
(40:14):
And started buying advertisingspace on a lot of other
different podcasts out there inthe space.
Um, and she said the resultsthat they were getting from
that, like far outpaced thespend that they were getting or
that they were putting into likeLinkedIn advertising and Google
PA pay per click.
Um, I thought that was veryinteresting.
I'm sure there's a lot of, uh,professional services firms out
(40:37):
there that, you know, wouldbenefit from exploring that
space a little bit.
There's probably some, someuntapped ground there.
John Tyreman (40:43):
Well, do you know why that is?
Is because you've got highlyengaged.
Listeners that are in tune witha highly niche topic, and that's
the ingredient right there.
You, you, you know, just todrive this point home, um, on.
Both on both of my shows andthen on many of the shows across
my portfolio.
(41:04):
The consumption rate on YouTube,the YouTube variation of the
show is much lower than theconsumption rate.
On the audio side, it's like 30%YouTube, 80% on the audio side.
So people are listening muchdeeper into the episode via
audio.
So if you're advertising on, youknow, long form audio podcasts,
(41:25):
then yeah, I could totally seehow that's.
Proving to be like much higher.
ROI.
Austin McNair (41:31):
That's awesome.
All right.
I think we've got one more.
Is that right?
MB.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (41:37):
Okay, we got one more.
So last one.
Podcasting is a fad that willsoon fade away.
John Tyreman (41:46):
All right, buckle up.
We're getting in into our timemachines here.
Okay.
We're gonna go back to 1895.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (41:55):
We're going, we're going way back
John Tyreman (41:56):
going way back.
That's when the, that's when theradio was invented.
Okay.
Now we all know that, like, Ithink it was actually, it was
when I was, uh, hosting theVisible Expert podcast.
Kelly and I were interviewingScott McCain and he is part of
the National SpeakersAssociation and he likened
(42:17):
podcasts to on Demand NicheRadio.
I thought that was such anaccurate description of what
podcasting is.
And so if we kind of like thinkabout radio has trained humans
to like be familiar with thatformat.
Right.
So it's, you know, generationsof humans and digital radio
(42:39):
actually, so recorded radio andthen transferred from computer
to computer actually predatesthe internet.
Um, and it was first called apodcast.
In the early two thousands, Ithink 2001, 2002, that's right
around when the RSS, um, feedsbecame available.
And then Apple actuallyintroduced the podcast app on
(43:02):
their phone, I think in like ohfive or oh six.
So they've been very forwardthinking in terms of like this
as a content vehicle, accordingto Edison research, so that
every year they do this studycalled the infinite Dial.
And they found that in two, in2025, more than half of
Americans, 12 or older will havelistened to podcast audio in the
(43:26):
last month.
And so like we as a, as a nationin the United States are getting
used to listening to podcastaudio.
I mean, just look at the impacton the last presidential
election, right?
I
Joe Pope (43:41):
Yeah.
John Tyreman (43:42):
the both candidates were on all sorts of
podcasts.
And then I think like Musk is onJoe Rogan.
Trump's on Joe Rogan.
Vance is on Joe Rogan.
Like that seems to be
Joe Pope (43:51):
It became a whole talking point, right?
There was this whole drama,like, um, Harris didn't want to
join or Joe didn't wanna haveher or was moving around, and
that became a bigger talkingpoint than the actual issues.
So I, I think the podcast piecethere is, is so interesting,
John Tyreman (44:08):
well, the, the fact that they, they both, they
both targeted podcasts as theirmedia channel of preference, I
think spoke volumes about howthey see, like the American
media and how they consumecontent.
I.
Austin McNair (44:21):
And even though one of them, uh, even though
both of them did go on differentpodcasts, one of them did a lot
more than the other and he wasthe one that won the election.
John Tyreman (44:31):
Yep.
Joe Pope (44:32):
So call her.
Daddy didn't call her daddydidn't get it done.
Austin McNair (44:35):
No, I don't think calling daddy was enough.
Joe Pope (44:39):
bummer.
Austin McNair (44:40):
All right.
Well, uh, John, this has beengreat.
I mean, I, I would say of themyths that we've proposed,
you've, you've fully bustedthem, but there may be some
marketing teams out there thatare still, uh, wondering like,
okay, how do I actually.
Take steps and make this areality.
Like it, the idea of starting apodcast is such a big endeavor
(45:03):
that it feels very mythical,right?
Like, how am I gonna find theright people to do it, organize
the right things, and honestly,the long-term commitment of it
as well.
I mean, I'll, I'll betransparent.
When we started, I.
Planning for this podcast.
I mean, the thing that Icontinually went back to in
conversations with you and withJoe and B and the whole team was
we've gotta be looking at thisfor like, you know, a foresee,
(45:26):
an investment for theforeseeable future.
I'm curious, you know, kind of,you know, to those out there who
may still be doubters, but maybenot even doubters, maybe they're
bought in but they just don'tknow what to do with this, you
know, do next in terms of, uh,make.
Making the next step, like whatwould you encourage them to do?
Like how can professionalservices firms take the first
(45:47):
step to assess if podcasting isthe right fit for them, and then
actually start making it happen?
John Tyreman (45:54):
Well first I think you've gotta have somebody who's
willing and able, right?
So someone needs to volunteer toget behind the mic.
That's like the first.
First step, if someone's willingto do that and walk that path,
then I would say the next stepwould be to record a pilot
episode and much like we didwhen we were producing or you
(46:17):
know, launching Spiraling Upthis show.
Um, I do offer a pilot episodepackage to, to my audience, and
it's not a free engagementbecause there is a lot of work
that goes into producing a pilotepisode.
Um, but that's, you know, I, Ido offer that so that firms can
get a taste of what it's like.
(46:37):
They can go through the motions,they can feel it before they
invest in a long-term investmentbecause you don't wanna.
Uh, commit to a six month, a 12month investment before you
truly understand what it's liketo go through those motions.
So that's what I would recommendis coming up with a pilot test
to make it real before you goall in.
Joe Pope (46:59):
The most.
Sorry, Austin, just one thing toreally hearing you say that,
John, it just makes such perfectsense.
The most impactful businessdevelopment and marketing
technique we saw in our highgrowth study recently was live
product and servicedemonstrations.
So while there's a bleeding linethere between whether it's
something you do as a part ofyour business development or if
(47:21):
it's kind of, the appetizer.
that is so logical, right?
You just want to have anopportunity to experience this
to see if it's for you withoutnecessarily having to go all in.
Austin McNair (47:32):
All right, John.
Uh, where can people learn moreabout what you do and how can
they get in touch with you?
Uh, what's, what's the, what'sthe best way for, for people to
learn more about your servicesand, and what you're up to?
John Tyreman (47:44):
Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn.
Um, check out red cedarmarketing.com.
Uh, subscribe to Breaking BizDev wherever you get your
podcasts.
spiraling up is a lot aboutmarketing for professional
services.
Breaking Biz dev is more on thebusiness development side of
things.
So if you enjoy this show,chances are you'll probably
enjoy that show as well.
Austin McNair (48:03):
Awesome.
Well, uh, thanks for, for yourcontributions here, breaking
some of these myths, letting usknow, you know, kind of what the
world of professional services,marketing and, and specifically
podcasting is, is looking like.
Good luck with everything thatyou're doing and I.
Uh, to all of our listeners, ifyou made it this far in the
episode, we just wanna thank youfor listening.
Make sure you hit the subscribebutton, make sure you like the
(48:26):
post, make sure you download theepisode.
Leave us a rating.
If you leave us a rating, we'llread it on the next episode.
Uh, we're building a communityhere.
Uh, we're having some fun.
We appreciate you guys listeningto this episode of Spiraling Up,
and we will see you on the nextone.
Take care everybody.
In today's episode of Spiraling Up, we'll
take a look at the cringing yourside of LinkedIn, and then we're
talking to podcast expert JohnTyreman so that we can bust some
myths about podcasting in theprofessional services space.
Welcome everyone.
This is spiraling up with Hinge.
(00:28):
All right.
Welcome everybody to SpiralingUp the marketing podcast That
puts a playful twist on theUsual Marketing podcast.
If you're a marketer or abusiness leader in the
professional services world,then you are in the right place.
What do we do on this podcast?
Well, in each episode, we willcover notable stories in the
world of marketing, and thenwe'll invite some leading voices
(00:51):
in the industry to play games ortake on some hard challenges to
share.
Their honest insights on whatworks and what doesn't work in
the space of professionalservices marketing.
We are early in this podcastexperience.
I'm joined by my co-host, JoePope.
Mary Blanche Kramer.
How are you guys doing?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:10):
Doing good.
Doing good.
Austin McNair (01:12):
Mb, I know that you were just traveling in
London, England.
How was that trip?
I know that Joe and I areespecially jealous'cause Joe and
I are both big English PremierLeague fans.
So the only thing I'm thinkingabout is did you go see any
soccer games?
I'm assuming the answer's no.
But tell us what did.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:31):
It was great.
It was great.
We had so much fun.
Um, I do a trip every year with,uh, one of my best girlfriends
from, from growing up.
We just like a different placeevery year.
And this year was London.
Uh, so we had a great time.
Um, lots of shopping, retailtherapy, if you will.
Um, but we, we went to thetheater.
Um, so, uh, gotta see a play.
That was fun.
Did a
Joe Pope (01:50):
What play did you guys see?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:52):
Harry Potter
Joe Pope (01:53):
Yes,
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:54):
ER's child.
We were, um, big Harry Potternerds as kids.
so naturally we had to, we hadto just come full circle.
honestly, it was great.
Some of the, uh, like motionmechanics and kinda like little
tricks that they did.
Um, really cool, really coolstuff.
Um, we went to, we did a tour,like a double decker tour bus.
Ate at some great restaurants,beat bopped around, uh, did kind
(02:16):
of like an impromptu day trip toBelgium, which, uh, honestly was
probably my favorite part of thetrip.
Um, but yeah, it was a goodtime.
Austin McNair (02:22):
I love that.
Just being able to hop over toanother country real fast, hop
back, no big deal.
That's cool.
Awesome.
Well, I'm glad you got some,some r and r and some time to,
to, to refresh.
Welcome back, Joe.
Everything going good for you?
Joe Pope (02:35):
Yeah.
Uh, other than if you're talkingsoccer, my team lost in a very
tragic fashion.
Uh, and I thought you were gonnago there when you were teeing up
mb.
But, uh, you know, I think, Ithink it's great, you know, and
one thing mb that stands out tome, uh, and I know you've been a
big advocate for this and youtalk to some of our other
colleagues and so forth, is theidea of taking these types of.
(02:56):
Impromptu trips or impromptuactivities involving yourself in
like this r and r type ofprocess.
So you can rest, refresh, andthen come back and ready to
roll.
Uh, it's so cool to, you know,even just hear this rundown of
how you guys have had it such agood time doing this.
Austin McNair (03:11):
Well, uh, I imagine that today's pivotal
story does not have a lot to dowith your trip in London.
Hopefully you were able to stayoff the internet and
specifically maybe stay off ofLinkedIn.
Uh, why don't you tell us aboutwhat our pivotal story is about
today?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (03:27):
Sure.
All right.
So Austin, you sent around a, afunny video earlier in the week,
and that's really what sparkedthe topic for today's pivotal
story.
So today we're gonna be talkingall things LinkedIn.
Now, as professional servicesmarketers, we know the
importance that LinkedIn playsas a social platform, but in pop
culture, LinkedIn has been knownto have a bit of a funny
(03:49):
reputation, honestly.
Um, but before I say moreAustin, let's.
How about you pull up the videothat, that you sent around to,
to kind of kick us off here?
Austin McNair (03:57):
All right, let's, let's pull it up and, uh, take,
take a watch at this.
N/A (04:03):
Moved on within a week with my.
Best friend's mom, and at firstI was totally crushed, but the
more that I thought about it, Irealized that.
I had failed to conduct a propercompetitive analysis.
Here's how that heartbreaktaught me everything that I need
to know about B2B sales.
One.
(04:23):
I assumed I was the only vendorin the pipeline.
Nope, Barbara was there.
Two, I neglected to assess thecompetitive landscape.
Sometimes your CU customer iswanting to go with a more mature
option.
Somebody that's been around forlonger, like your best friend's
mom.
Great salespeople know thatdeals don't go cold without
(04:44):
reason, and if they suddenlywalk away, chances are they
found a better alternative andsometimes it's Barbara hashtag
B2B sales.
Hashtag Know your Market.
Hashtag Love where you work.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (04:58):
I had to get in that third hashtag.
Joe Pope (05:00):
It's always that one.
Austin McNair (05:03):
Okay.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (05:07):
Oh, that's good.
So I mean, it's, it's true,right?
People can, they can be a littleodd on LinkedIn sometimes.
And you know, I thinkparticularly here, the stretch
to drawing on real worldexamples like this one, you
know, they are, they aresometimes over the top, but, uh,
what do you guys think is, isLinkedIn cringe?
(05:27):
Um, Joe, let's start with you.
What's your take?
Joe Pope (05:29):
there's a channel on Instagram, uh, called Best of
LinkedIn that has become a, amainstay in the dms of I.
Believe the three of us insharing some of the best
examples in terms of some of themore outrageous ways that folks
are expressing themselves on theplatform.
Uh, one that stood out to merecently was a gentleman named
(05:49):
Peter, uh, whose title, andobviously I'm not gonna go any
further than that, but his titleis Search Engine Optimization
Specialist and Freelancer.
And, uh, it starts with, I havea Secret.
Okay.
Let's, let's hear it Peter.
Most people are not even awarethat this is a real thing, but
since 2015, I have struggledwith peeing in public restrooms.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (06:11):
Stop it.
Joe Pope (06:13):
Three sentences in, and I know more about Peter than
I think anybody would ever wannaknow about Peter, but yes, he
did find a way to tie it into arecent trip to Europe, which is
why I think this stood out tome.
And I'm absolutely not gonna askyou about your, uh, your
preferences mb, but I think ingeneral, the challenge with
Peter and the fact that the, hehas to reference.
(06:35):
Urination as a part of abusiness networking site is
already showing something thatshould just never exist.
I don't even think it shouldexist on any social media
platform, let alone LinkedIn.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (06:46):
It's a bridge too far.
Joe Pope (06:48):
It's just very far.
I.
Austin McNair (06:49):
think that's the point.
I mean, I think you know, one ofthe reasons this, this story.
Stood out to us as like, okay,so this is a tension that I
think we need to live in asprofessionals and especially
professionals in theprofessional services marketing
space.
Like yes, you know, being onLinkedIn does have, its kind of
like awkward moments andsometimes you have to be a
(07:10):
little bit more enthusiasticabout work stuff.
Then maybe you really are, youknow, sometimes that's the case.
But I mean, the bottom line isthat in the professional
services world, people are usingit.
For meaningful networkingexperiences.
They're doing it to sharethought leadership.
And if you can build a communityof people in your space that
(07:31):
can't be more authentic and likebring real value and expertise
to the space we've seen with ourclients, with ourselves and from
the data that actually it, it,it is a valuable marketing
strategy that can't really beignored.
So if I actually go to the.
The data from our most recenthigh growth, study.
(07:51):
number two on the list ofmarketing techniques that are
used most often by the fastestgrowing firms is networking on
social media.
And then only just below thatis, Actually promoting thought
leadership on social media aswell.
And this isn't any social media.
We also ask like, what platformsare you using?
And LinkedIn is like thedominant one.
(08:11):
So there's not really a questionabout what our data is
indicating or saying there.
LinkedIn is a space that reallymatters.
I mean, what, so, you know, withthat, with that being said, how
do you guys handle that tensionbetween, you know, the
cringiness of LinkedIn, um, withthe actual professional value
that we know it has?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (08:31):
Yeah.
Well, Austin, let me go back toone of the points you just said
about the authenticity piecebecause I, I think that's so
important and such.
Just a, a key factor in, in howyou do just that.
Um,'cause it's at the very coreof.
Building these meaningfulprofessional relationships and
establishing your, you know,your own strong personal brand.
(08:51):
'cause people, you know, they,they want that transparency.
They, they appreciate honestyand this can make them more
inclined to, to want to engagewith you.
And so then when you compareauthenticity with educational
meaningful content people, theybegin to start to see you as a
valuable resource.
You know, someone that they cantrust for advice or for
(09:13):
collaboration, which as we allknow, naturally translates into
opportunities, whether it's, youknow, a job offer, a
partnership, a mentorship,
Joe Pope (09:23):
some of these platforms can be their own worst
enemy though, with that MBI,LinkedIn was purchased by
Microsoft in 2016, I believe.
Something like 26, 20$5 billion.
Makes sense.
Software company is trying toget in on the game, especially
with meta Facebook buying upeverything and Google already
having their natural leg up interms of search engine and so
(09:45):
forth.
But one feature that's.
Stood out and, you know, this isabsolutely driven by Microsoft
and their AI models is, LinkedInis offering to provide AI
services for your posts.
So like type your, type your,uh, thoughts into this and
LinkedIn will produce an AIprint ready solution for you to
(10:05):
get yourself out there in thenetworking space.
And, and all I can think aboutevery time I see that is.
Cringe.
It's like this is not authentic.
It's not something that isalmost certainly gonna be tied
back to the individual, andthat's what these platforms are
supposed to be.
It's this collection ofindividuals connecting and
conversating with each other.
Austin McNair (10:26):
I, I can give an example of for the balance
between being authentic, butalso like staying professional
and kind of creating somevalues.
So at the beginning of the year,um.
My wife and I welcomed our thirdkid into the home.
on the professional side, hingewas releasing our brand new
research report.
We were also launching a brandnew podcast, there was like all
(10:49):
this stuff.
Ha.
And it was the, the beginning ofthe year and you have like those
New Year's resolution, likefuzzies kind of going.
And so like, I made a post aboutthat where I was just like, you
know, carrying a lot of positiveenergy and kind of like.
You know, all about newbeginnings kind of into the
space.
And I can tell you that sincethat post, and I was a little,
you know, kind of apprehensiveabout sharing that on LinkedIn,
(11:09):
I've had like three or fourpeople in my professional
network, clients, prospectsactually bring up like, hey,
like I saw that, you know, youhad, you know, you guys had a
new baby and stuff like that.
And it, it didn't feel weird orawkward.
It was like.
Great.
I'm glad I could shed a littlebit of light into kind of who I
am as a person, but alsocelebrate some of the stuff that
(11:29):
we have going on professionallyas well.
I think that was, that would bemy example Any other final
thoughts from you guys on this?
Joe Pope (11:35):
I, you guys want me to share one more?
Best of LinkedIn.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (11:37):
I do, yes.
Austin McNair (11:38):
Yeah, let's do one more.
Why not?
People want to see it.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (11:41):
These are my
Joe Pope (11:41):
The give.
Give the people what they want.
All right.
This one's from Jason.
Uh, according to best ofLinkedIn, this was two days ago.
We're a third connection.
Uh, here's what happened In thesix months after I got locked
out of the house by my ex.
I moved in with my parents, lost10 pounds, and I picked up my
belongings a month later.
(12:02):
Then two months after that, hestarted seeing a therapist and
feels better with the directionthings are going.
Take a guess what Jason's titleis underneath his name.
Austin McNair (12:13):
Does that have to do with B2B sales?
Joe Pope (12:15):
No, it's a men's divorce coach.
Austin McNair (12:18):
Ouch.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (12:19):
Oh man.
Also, I love how your voiceimmediately changed as you
started to read his post
Austin McNair (12:25):
uh, well we've got a great segment coming up
here with our friend JohnTyreman.
If you are a professional thathas thought about, ah, should
our business start a newpodcast, should we consider this
for experts that work at ourcompany, should we think about
maybe advertising on podcasts?
I think you're gonna get a lotof value out of our conversation
coming up with John, so staytuned.
(12:49):
Hey Joe Mb, do you guys smellthat
Joe Pope (12:52):
No, what is it?
Austin McNair (12:55):
it is not the smell of this not so great
Brazilian coffee that I'mdrinking?
You know what it is?
It is the smell of freshresearch, baby.
I'm talking about.
The high growth study.
Okay.
If you've listened to some otherepisodes, you know, we've been
talking about this in the middleof every episode, we reference
(13:17):
this data in every episode.
That's because every year weconduct this research on the
professional servicesmarketplace.
And this year it was the 10thedition of the studies, a huge
milestone.
Um, I mean, over the years, Joe,what is it?
50,000?
Different companies, that
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (13:37):
A.
Austin McNair (13:38):
in climbing, uh, organizations that we've
researched over the years.
This year we had a great sample.
If you want to know what thefastest growing professional
services firms are doing withtheir marketing and with their
business development, what dothey gotta do mb What do they
gotta go do?
What do they gotta go download
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (13:55):
But high growth study.
Austin McNair (13:56):
The high growth study, it's
Joe Pope (13:57):
No one does it dead or baby.
Austin McNair (13:59):
No one does it better.
So go to hingemarketing.com/high growth and
you'll get the executive summaryof the research report.
Totally for free.
And if you want to dive a littlebit deeper, there are industry
specific reports, consulting,architecture, engineering and
construction, technology andsoftware.
(14:20):
We got you.
It's all there.
We've got six different industryreports on sale if you want to
cut a layer deeper, and thoseare available as well.
So we hope you pick those up.
We hope you download theexecutive summary no matter
what.
Let's get back to the episode.
All right.
I wanna welcome to the SpiralingUp Podcast, Mr.
John Tyreman.
(14:41):
John is a professional servicesmarketer and podcast strategist.
With over 10 years of experiencehelping firms win new business,
he leverages his expertise inpodcasting to help businesses
build trust with buyers,showcase their expertise, and
generate content.
He currently hosts two podcasts,breaking Biz Dev and Podcasting
(15:05):
in Professional Services, and Idon't think it will be hard for
people to put one and onetogether.
John was definitely very helpfulin helping us make this podcast
a reality.
So John, we're really excited tohave you here on the podcast
with us today to talk about allthings.
Um, podcasting and professionalservices firms.
But first I want to ask you, wejust had a segment, uh, where we
(15:29):
were talking about, uh, howLinkedIn can sometimes be a
space, uh, that can be a littlebit cringey.
Um, I know you spend a lot oftime on LinkedIn.
I'm sure you've seen some stuffover the years.
We wanted to ask you before wedive into today's segment,
what's the CRST thing you'veseen on LinkedIn?
Come on, man.
Tell us the real deal.
What have you, what have you,what have you seen?
John Tyreman (15:49):
Man, I've seen some really creative things on
LinkedIn and, and, uh, you know,uh, hats off to, uh, Logan
Lyles.
I think he's one, he's a greatcreator on there, but I.
There have been some reallycringe things that I've seen a
few years ago.
Like there was a bunch of techlayoffs and there was this one
crying, CEO, and he would, youknow, did the selfie video of
(16:12):
him crying because he had to letgo, all of it, like half of his
employees.
And that was super cringe.
He went viral and I'm sure thathe probably, you know, found
some opportunities from it justby here, happenstance and, but
that was super cringe.
Probably the most that I've comeacross.
Austin McNair (16:30):
Yeah.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (16:30):
cr.
John Tyreman (16:31):
I'm sure that someone will probably like beat
that at some point, but
Joe Pope (16:35):
He is gonna get tagged in some sort of video that we
put out for this.
Now he's gonna come find you,John.
Now it's so funny you, you usethat example and I immediately,
it just comes straight to mymind.
I remember watching that.
I might even interacted with youabout it too.
'cause this, I mean, this was.
And years ago, the during theCovid layoffs.
But yeah, I can't, I can't getthat fit.
(16:57):
How could you sit there and evenjust turn the camera on to watch
yourself do that?
It's beyond me.
John Tyreman (17:03):
I mean, I understand being vulnerable, but
that's just a little forced, youknow?
Mary-Blanche Krae (17:06):
Premeditated.
Austin McNair (17:09):
All right, team.
Well, I've got a question foryou.
Do you guys have your lab coatsready?
How about your safety goggles?
Because it is time to playmarketing Myth Busters.
All right.
Yeah.
You know, you remember MythBusters Beloved TV franchise.
Uh, and similar to the show, uh,we're gonna dive into the world
(17:32):
of marketing folklore toseparate fact from fiction.
John, as our guest, you, we aregonna present you with this
challenge, right?
We're gonna present you withsome common myths or some widely
held objections that people havein the space of podcasting, in
the marketing world.
And it's your challenge, man,uh, to use your expertise data,
(17:55):
real world examples.
Experience, whatever you've gotin the bag of tricks to either
confirm or debunk these claims.
Do you think you've got what ittakes to play marketing
MythBusters with us?
John Tyreman (18:06):
The first image that comes to mind is that that
bald guy with a mustache, right?
And so I feel like I fit thepart of
Austin McNair (18:14):
Yeah.
John Tyreman (18:14):
now.
I'm ready.
Let's go, man.
Austin McNair (18:17):
Awesome.
Well, uh, mb I think you've gotthe prompts ready for today.
We've got some great things to,to, to, to tee up for John here.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (18:26):
Yep.
All right, well, let's dive intoit then.
I've got a couple good ones herefor you.
All right, let's start with thisone, John.
Some people say podcasts.
They're just entertainment.
They're great for storytellingor comedy, but they don't really
work for serious B2B orprofessional services companies.
What say you.
John Tyreman (18:47):
Okay.
All right.
So I'm gonna try to bust thismyth.
Well, first of all, I just wantto call out that storytelling is
a, a critical part of newbusiness development, and I
think there's a lot that we canlearn from storytelling and
apply to business.
But that as an aside, um,business podcasts are the fourth
most popular genre of podcasts.
(19:08):
Um, and that they representabout 8.9% of all podcasts.
So I think it's a after, likesociety and culture, arts and
entertainment, I wanna say thoseare like the top three.
And then business podcasts arelike the next biggest one.
And um, so I think that in ofitself, just to show you that
there, there is a lot ofbusiness podcasts out there.
(19:31):
Um, but to your point, MaryBlanche is like, okay, well is
there demand for it?
Right.
You know, are people actuallylistening to that?
Um, so if we dig down a littlebit further, there was, and we
were just talking about LinkedInactually, they, they put out a
study of I think like 2,700users and they found that 44% of
(19:52):
department heads, VPs owners,and C-Suite individuals listen
to podcasts.
So I think that that, you know,if we look at it through the
lens of, um, the most popularprofessional networking
platform, I think that just goesto show that there is a market,
there is demand for businesspodcasts.
Joe Pope (20:13):
Part of that myth I think is just generated by how
people utilize and what theirexperience is with the platform.
Uh, one of the things that hasstood out to me, I.
And I think, uh, Austin, youalready teed it up.
John was a big piece of how wecame to put this podcast
together.
I think it was originallygenerated over, uh, Tex-Mex and
Beers, right?
Like all good ideas.
(20:34):
Uh, but I was one of these folksright, where I, I remember John
specifically.
I was.
Questioning, gosh, I just can'tget into business podcasts.
I, I, you know, I consume blogs,I go to webinars, I do all those
types of things, and I struggleto make those connections, uh,
for the reasons ofentertainment, authenticity, and
those types of elements.
The storytelling piece that youjust referenced, that's what
(20:55):
stands out to me, right?
Because there's a differencebetween having a story to tell
and just standing in front of amicrophone, or sitting, I guess,
in front of a microphone.
John Tyreman (21:04):
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Um, and, and I think that'swhere, you know, you can draw
from your experience and you cantell stories of your, uh, and,
and I think that shows if, ifwe're talking about professional
services, you know, you're inthe business of expertise.
So the extent to which you canreference stories, um, that show
(21:25):
that you have helped a certainclientele in the past and that
you, you, you know what to lookfor and you can guide them
around corners, you know, thatthat goes a long way, especially
in a, in a medium, like apodcast where it's a little bit
more informal and it's a littlebit more conversational.
Joe Pope (21:44):
Mm-hmm.
John Tyreman (21:44):
I think it, it just, it's, it's like kinda like
hanging out with at, at happyhour with folks that are in your
industry.
Right?
That's how I look at it.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (21:55):
Yeah, I feel that way too.
So I'm kind of, was on theopposite side of the coin from
Joe initially when we startedtalking about this, because for
me, podcasts have, you know, fora while now have just been such
an integrated part of my, myweek over week.
You know, I do have my favoritebusiness podcast I listen to,
whether that's, you know, I onlyhave 10 minutes, I'm gonna pick
up the kids from dance or if I'mon a trip and I get to listen
(22:16):
to, you know, maybe like bingethree episodes in a row.
But, um, just find so much valuein them.
Um.
John Tyreman (22:22):
What's your favorite show?
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (22:24):
it's called the All In podcast.
John Tyreman (22:26):
The All In podcast,
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (22:27):
Yeah, it's a bunch of PE guys and they just
talk about what's going on in,in tech, it, what they're up to,
and they're um, they callthemselves the besties, um, so
that you can tell they're allreally good friends.
And so like, you
Austin McNair (22:39):
Ah.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (22:40):
you'll get 10, 15 minutes in and you're
just kind of laughing along withjust like their banter in
general.
So kind of speaking to a littlebit of what you were saying too,
John, I just.
You know, you just kind of feellike you're, you're almost right
there with them and happy hour,just kinda, you know, listening
in.
So.
Austin McNair (22:56):
feel like I've listened to that one too.
That's the billionaire besties.
Right?
They're all like the SiliconValley billionaires.
Yeah, I, I that Um, John, I'm,you know, I think a lot of the
myths that we'll talk abouttoday, um, they come from a
place of hesitation, right?
What would you say to the, partof like the role of how podcasts
don't just have to stay onpodcast platforms, but that,
(23:18):
episodes can be content thatcontributes to other parts of
your, marketing funnel marketingchannels that you're, you're
doing, I know that when we wereworking with you, that was kind
of a theme that you kept talkingabout.
I think it's really importantthat people get to that.
I don't think we have any kindof questions that they're gonna
touch on that topic.
So I'm, I'm just kind of curiouslike I.
W how do you normally frame thatup for people and like, handling
(23:40):
the objection.
John Tyreman (23:41):
I subscribe to the Challenger Sale mentality of
know you like you, trust you.
Especially in professionalservices where buyers first they
need to know you, then they needto like you, then they need to
trust you in order to, um, dobusiness with you.
And so the way that I look at itis to get to know someone first,
you need to become familiar withthem, right?
(24:03):
So familiarity is kind of astepping stone to trust.
And so if you're talking aboutwhat, what I call content
distribution, that's what Ilike.
That's the term that I use totalk about what you're talking
about.
Austin, I think I.
And, um, on my podcast,podcasting and professional
services, I interviewed, uh,Ross Simmons.
(24:25):
And, um, he has this mantra,create Once, distribute Forever.
It's the name of one of hisbooks that he just wrote, and
it's this concept of, you know,you, you record a podcast or you
create a long form article or aPDF or something and that's your
core content that you can then.
Repurpose, you know, copy andpaste a paragraph from the text
(24:46):
and that becomes a LinkedInpost, right?
Or in a podcast sense, you know,create a long form, 45, 50
minute conversation, and thenchop that up into 10 different
clips that you're pushing out onsocial media.
And so then that signals, youknow, folks that are on
LinkedIn, for example, since wewere just talking about that,
(25:08):
they're scrolling through theirfeed and then they see your face
on a screen.
They hear your voice and they'relike, oh, okay.
You know, that's Austin, that'sJoe, that's mb.
And then a couple weeks later,they see it again and again and
again.
And then in a couple weeks theylisten to one of those video
shorts.
And then that captures theirattention so much that they
(25:30):
click through and listen to afull length podcast episode and
then they subscribe to it.
And so that's kind of the bridgebetween the familiarity to
knowing you to liking you.
And then when you have peoplethat subscribe to your show, you
can build trust with them overtime, through your
conversations, through the valuethat you provide to them, via
(25:51):
guests, via the topics you talkabout.
Um, so that's how I thinkcontent distribution overlays
into that trust equation.
Joe Pope (26:00):
Mm-hmm.
Austin McNair (26:00):
What's up next?
MB.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (26:02):
All right.
Let's see.
Next up.
Some people say that you need ahuge audience to start a
successful podcast.
John Tyreman (26:11):
Hmm.
That's the, that's the peopleare saying.
That's the myth.
We're gonna bust it up.
Alright.
So, um, I will say that podcastsare a phenomenal way to engage
your existing audience.
So if you have an existingaudience of email subscribers,
um, then a podcast is a naturaltransition to engage more deeply
(26:31):
with them.
That being said.
You can use a podcast toaccelerate your networking
growth.
So what I mean by that is, islike, do you wanna be a guest of
my podcast?
That is a much stronger offerthan, Hey, you wanna hop on an
intro call, you wanna hop on aZoom call?
So you're providing value to theother person as opposed to
(26:54):
asking for value, asking fortheir time.
You're saying, Hey, I'm, I'masking for your time, but I'm
gonna give you.
You know, a video of you talkingabout you.
Right?
So that's like, first of all,like, I think that because of
that, your connection rates aremuch higher with people that you
reach out to.
Um, those connections are muchdeeper because you're having
(27:15):
deeper conversations, right?
And you're promoting them.
You're putting value into that,that relationship.
And so like if you're playing onthe cognitive bias of
reciprocity, right?
With that upfront deposit intothat relationship.
So it, it's a way to accelerateyour networking growth.
I'll give you an example.
(27:36):
So, um, I'm working with afractional chief operating
officer, and he, it is a, um,EOS integrator and he wants to,
a referral source for him areEOS implementers.
So what we're gonna do is we'regonna go out and we're going to
network with these E Ossis we'recalling them and they, that is a
(27:59):
referral source, that's thetarget guest for the show.
So we want to put deposit valueinto those referral sources so
that they think of thisfractional COO and wanna refer
'em.
Joe Pope (28:10):
I was just gonna say an EOS for those who are running
to Google real quick is theentrepreneurial operating
system.
In a fairly honestly, fastgrowing way of how, especially
small businesses, uh, are, uh,uh, bringing into practice a
process that allows them to growquickly.
So I can see great synergieshere, especially if that's your
(28:32):
target audience and that's whoyou're trying to speak to in,
uh, in being able to kind oftalk around that experience,
that expertise.
John Tyreman (28:39):
Yeah, it's a, and so it's a faster way to network
with a key referral source,deposit relationships into them.
And then the strategy is, isthat he will be the first
fractional COO that they thinkof.
Joe Pope (28:52):
What did Mr.
Eeo s's, uh, net we'll sayvisibility look like before the
podcast?
What, what was he rocking interms of email subscribers, so
on and so forth?
John Tyreman (29:02):
It's a small email list, you know, a few hundred on
the, on an email list.
He's a, he's a fractional, um,chief operating officer, and he
wants to build a firm.
So he's, he's working with otherfractional COOs.
And then when he finds a goodfit, you know, he refers
business to them, but it's sortof a consortium.
Of these different fractionalexecutives.
(29:23):
So it's an interesting model andit's, it's cool how you know
these different solo businessowners are kind of working
together in that capacity.
Joe Pope (29:31):
What, what's growth looked like since you've
launched the podcast?
John Tyreman (29:34):
We launched it last week,
Joe Pope (29:35):
Oh, okay.
Sure.
All right.
Well, we'll have to, we'll haveto do like an overlay of this
video that says Results are in,or something like that.
We can get a Morey overview.
John Tyreman (29:45):
there you go.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (29:47):
All right, let's go to number three.
So only charismaticpersonalities can be successful
Podcast hosts.
John Tyreman (29:57):
Oh, I love this one because that is a myth, and
I hear that all the time, and,um, I, I would, I would say that
it's not entirely true Now,energetic, outgoing,
well-spoken, charismatic people,I.
Yes, like you could do amonologue, you could be on a
co-hosted commentary, you coulddo an interview series if you
(30:18):
can learn to shut up.
But, um, like there are otherpodcast structures for different
personality types.
So like, are you provocative andsnarky?
Are you really like, reallyfunny?
Do you like, you know, have likegood one-liners, zingers.
You know, be a co-host withanother expert or someone else
who's a little bit morestraight-laced.
Right?
(30:38):
And so to provide that kind oflike fire and ice or like
banter, um, maybe you're reallyintroverted and really curious
and inquisitive.
Run an interview series and askdamn good questions.
Right.
So like there's a podcaststructure for almost any
personality type.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (30:56):
This is about tailoring.
Tailoring to your strengths,
John Tyreman (30:59):
Exactly.
Yes.
Joe Pope (31:01):
Do you have an exercise?
You typically go through John tohelp identify what that is,
those strengths?
John Tyreman (31:05):
My typical sales process when I'm working with,
um, experts or marketers whowant to launch a podcast either
for themselves or for someonewithin their organization.
Uh, there is really a vibe checkthat goes on.
And it's, it's, it's not reallylike a personality test per se,
it's more of a feel thing.
(31:26):
But you know, you get to knowsomebody and you get to
understand their personality alittle bit and you can kind of
connect the dots and see, okay,this person would do really well
in these scenarios, under theseconditions, under this framework
with this supporting cast.
And then the vision kind ofcomes together.
'cause there's a lot ofdifferent ingredients that go
into.
Launching a podcast as, as youall know, just from going
(31:49):
through this experience,
Austin McNair (31:51):
john, uh, when we were, when we were writing the,
the Visible expert book, we, wedid like a kind of a similar
thing, uh, adjacent to whatyou're saying about the
different types of personalitytypes being kind of different
types of, uh, podcast hosts.
We did something similar therewith, with kind of talking about
visible experts and how visibleexperts there could be different
kinds of visible experts.
(32:12):
Uh, I think the examples we usein the book.
Uh, we talk about the bridgebuilder.
So that's somebody who's kind ofbuild, building a bridge between
two different, uh, topics.
Um, the laser.
So that's usually like aspecialist, someone who's like,
highly, like, targeted on onelittle area.
Uh, the curator, which is likemaybe that role of like bringing
(32:33):
other experts into the fold andlike interviewing them.
Um, like I like that examplethat you used.
Um, then you have your firstmovers and your contrarians,
which I think maybe.
Of the different visible expertswe talk about tend to be the
ones with the most boisterouspersonalities, um, that could,
you know, make for good pod, youknow, podcast hosts or running a
good podcast.
(32:54):
Um, I just like the comparisonthere that, you know, you've
kind of figured out howimportant that is in terms of
designing a podcast for adifferent company like that.
Fitting it to the personalityreally.
Matters and makes a differenceto kind of the output and the
quality of it.
Um, when we're talking to peopleabout being a visible expert,
(33:15):
it's the same thing.
Like, what are your skill sets?
What kind of, you know, whatkind of way do you want to go to
the marketplace and talk aboutyour expertise.
So I love the parallels therethat, you know, what we saw with
the visible expert kind ofaligns with the podcasting angle
as well.
John Tyreman (33:29):
Well, and then to add on to that, Austin, I think
in the first visible expert bookit was, there was like those
three core skills, right?
Like writing, speaking, andnetworking.
And then you kind of like layeron from that.
It's like, okay, well if you'regood, really good at speaking,
I.
What kind of a speaker then lookat it through the lens of that
personality.
Are you more of a bridgebuilder, a laser, a curator?
(33:51):
First mover, contrarian, or the,like, the networking angle too.
Like I could see these bridgebuilders being, like really good
interview hosts and like, makingconnections with different
guests, whereas like thecurators could curate industry
news and then kinda likebroadcast it or present it or
add their own twist to it.
So there's, there's a lot ofdifferent ways that.
(34:11):
Experts can tap into theirexpertise and their personality
at the same time.
And that's like the combination,uh, that's what's so beautiful
about a podcast.
Austin McNair (34:21):
I love that.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (34:23):
Love that too.
All right.
Now I'm gonna go on to the nextone.
This is a, because this is agood one.
Um, all right.
Creating ROI from a podcast isnearly impossible and it's too
much work.
I.
John Tyreman (34:37):
Well, uh, you can get ROI from a podcast and there
are a number of different waysyou can realize that return on
investment.
So I'll give you one quickexample before we dive into some
more of the tangible things.
Okay.
One of my clients is in his latefifties.
(34:57):
He's actually turning 60 thismonth, and he does not want to
travel anymore to speakingengagements.
He, he's just tired of flyingall around the country, going to
these speaking gigs, and he'stry, has to pry speaking fees
from these associations.
And he's, he's done with it.
He's fed up with it.
So we launched a podcast, um,about six months ago and, um, he
(35:20):
recently.
Went to the biggest conferencein the country now the, it's the
Ground Transportation podcast.
And they, we recently did thislike challenge like, Hey, get a,
get a selfie with us on theshowroom floor and enter for a
chance to win a plug for yourbusiness on the podcast.
They were inundated with peopletrying to get selfies with them.
(35:42):
So much so that Ken, my client,he had to fake that he was on
the phone and like walk off thefloor.
And so I, it, long story short,like that was just kinda one
signal that the podcast ishelping him achieve that goal of
delivering his message in a waythat he doesn't have to do it at
(36:03):
those speaking events andspeaking engagements.
So if you're, you know, cutting.
Air airfare, right, is a formof, you know, cost cutting.
You know, you could look at thatas return on investment or the
time it takes to travel and, anddo that.
Um, I thought that was a reallyfunny story.
But, uh, if we get back to someof the more, like, typical like
(36:24):
ROI, like direct attribution,lead generation is the first
place that I would point to,right?
So referrals from guests thatyou have on.
The guests themselves on yourpodcast.
Um, after a few years, yourlisteners could become guests or
could become opportunities,right?
(36:44):
Hey, I've been listening to youfor years and the opportunity to
work with you just hasn't comeup.
But finally, like I'm in thisspace now where it makes sense
to work together.
Let's talk.
Joe Pope (36:55):
And that mirrors a lot of how we see some of these
other visibility tactics thatmake up marketing strategies pay
dividends too.
Right.
Especially that last one youreferenced.
It's in, you were talking aboutthe idea of trust building,
right?
And the idea that these arefolks that are getting to
experience you in a setting thatdoesn't feel overly salesy, that
(37:15):
doesn't feel like they're gonnahave to.
Hit ignore on a phone call thatthey're not quite wanting to do
because it doesn't really makesense for them yet, and yet they
just keep seeing it show up ontheir caller id.
Uh, so I, I, I feel that in, in,in entirely.
I think it also plays reallywell with what we're seeing in
the shifts.
In Google's algorithm and howpeople are using other tools or
(37:40):
tactics to make decisions.
So I, I, I think I've found away to reference SEO is dead in
some form or fashion on everypodcast we've done thus far.
Uh, which of course isoverblown, but.
The idea of SEO being a, justthe primary focus of groups, and
that's gonna just bring you theleads.
(38:00):
They're gonna keep rolling in.
Not so much.
People are leaning on generativeai.
They're leaning on othertactics.
They're trusting networkingvenues, whether it's.
Digital or in a traditionalsense, the floor taking selfies
with your guy.
Uh, so yeah, I, I can just seethat this is what part of that
diversification strategy wouldbe.
(38:20):
You just have to understand it'spart of a long game.
Uh, if there's not a direct,we're getting the guest, for
example, to be your businessopportunity or the networking
that you can potentially getfrom guests bringing and
referring other folks in.
John Tyreman (38:35):
So I want to, I want to touch on that because
yes, it is a long-terminvestment.
However, there are ways to, uh,kind of offset some of your
production costs.
So sponsorships are one avenueto do that, and especially with
business podcasts and in evensomewhat, even more so in
(38:58):
professional services where theaudiences are so niche and
narrow.
Sponsorships.
You know, value is in the eye ofthe beholder.
So if you are a professionalservices firm, let's say you're
an accounting firm and youlaunch a podcast and you want to
find ways to offset theproduction costs, to extend the
(39:18):
runway of your show so that youdo have that calendar time to be
able to prove return oninvestment in the form of leads.
Then you get a sponsor to offsetthat cost and that extends your
runway.
So maybe you partner with atechnology, or maybe it's like a
SaaS platform or like, you know,like a block or like a
blockchain ledger.
Maybe you're in a, a progressiveaccounting firm that wants to go
(39:41):
on the blockchain.
I don't know.
But um, that's kind of the pointis it can extend your runway.
Joe Pope (39:47):
So what you're saying is you can sponsor more than
golf tournaments.
John Tyreman (39:50):
Yes.
And you should.
Austin McNair (39:53):
I, I was actually having a conversation with a
client recently, um, and whenthe topic of podcasting came up,
I thought they were going in thedirection of talking about how
I.
They were thinking aboutstarting a podcast for their,
for their technology company,but what she was actually saying
was, no, she had their, theircompany had actually
aggressively gone out.
(40:14):
And started buying advertisingspace on a lot of other
different podcasts out there inthe space.
Um, and she said the resultsthat they were getting from
that, like far outpaced thespend that they were getting or
that they were putting into likeLinkedIn advertising and Google
PA pay per click.
Um, I thought that was veryinteresting.
I'm sure there's a lot of, uh,professional services firms out
(40:37):
there that, you know, wouldbenefit from exploring that
space a little bit.
There's probably some, someuntapped ground there.
John Tyreman (40:43):
Well, do you know why that is?
Is because you've got highlyengaged.
Listeners that are in tune witha highly niche topic, and that's
the ingredient right there.
You, you, you know, just todrive this point home, um, on.
Both on both of my shows andthen on many of the shows across
my portfolio.
(41:04):
The consumption rate on YouTube,the YouTube variation of the
show is much lower than theconsumption rate.
On the audio side, it's like 30%YouTube, 80% on the audio side.
So people are listening muchdeeper into the episode via
audio.
So if you're advertising on, youknow, long form audio podcasts,
(41:25):
then yeah, I could totally seehow that's.
Proving to be like much higher.
ROI.
Austin McNair (41:31):
That's awesome.
All right.
I think we've got one more.
Is that right?
MB.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (41:37):
Okay, we got one more.
So last one.
Podcasting is a fad that willsoon fade away.
John Tyreman (41:46):
All right, buckle up.
We're getting in into our timemachines here.
Okay.
We're gonna go back to 1895.
Mary-Blanche Kraemer (41:55):
We're going, we're going way back
John Tyreman (41:56):
going way back.
That's when the, that's when theradio was invented.
Okay.
Now we all know that, like, Ithink it was actually, it was
when I was, uh, hosting theVisible Expert podcast.
Kelly and I were interviewingScott McCain and he is part of
the National SpeakersAssociation and he likened
(42:17):
podcasts to on Demand NicheRadio.
I thought that was such anaccurate description of what
podcasting is.
And so if we kind of like thinkabout radio has trained humans
to like be familiar with thatformat.
Right.
So it's, you know, generationsof humans and digital radio
(42:39):
actually, so recorded radio andthen transferred from computer
to computer actually predatesthe internet.
Um, and it was first called apodcast.
In the early two thousands, Ithink 2001, 2002, that's right
around when the RSS, um, feedsbecame available.
And then Apple actuallyintroduced the podcast app on
(43:02):
their phone, I think in like ohfive or oh six.
So they've been very forwardthinking in terms of like this
as a content vehicle, accordingto Edison research, so that
every year they do this studycalled the infinite Dial.
And they found that in two, in2025, more than half of
Americans, 12 or older will havelistened to podcast audio in the
(43:26):
last month.
And so like we as a, as a nationin the United States are getting
used to listening to podcastaudio.
I mean, just look at the impacton the last presidential
election, right?
I
Joe Pope (43:41):
Yeah.
John Tyreman (43:42):
the both candidates were on all sorts of
podcasts.
And then I think like Musk is onJoe Rogan.
Trump's on Joe Rogan.
Vance is on Joe Rogan.
Like that seems to be
Joe Pope (43:51):
It became a whole talking point, right?
There was this whole drama,like, um, Harris didn't want to
join or Joe didn't wanna haveher or was moving around, and
that became a bigger talkingpoint than the actual issues.
So I, I think the podcast piecethere is, is so interesting,
John Tyreman (44:08):
well, the, the fact that they, they both, they
both targeted podcasts as theirmedia channel of preference, I
think spoke volumes about howthey see, like the American
media and how they consumecontent.
I.
Austin McNair (44:21):
And even though one of them, uh, even though
both of them did go on differentpodcasts, one of them did a lot
more than the other and he wasthe one that won the election.
John Tyreman (44:31):
Yep.
Joe Pope (44:32):
So call her.
Daddy didn't call her daddydidn't get it done.
Austin McNair (44:35):
No, I don't think calling daddy was enough.
Joe Pope (44:39):
bummer.
Austin McNair (44:40):
All right.
Well, uh, John, this has beengreat.
I mean, I, I would say of themyths that we've proposed,
you've, you've fully bustedthem, but there may be some
marketing teams out there thatare still, uh, wondering like,
okay, how do I actually.
Take steps and make this areality.
Like it, the idea of starting apodcast is such a big endeavor
(45:03):
that it feels very mythical,right?
Like, how am I gonna find theright people to do it, organize
the right things, and honestly,the long-term commitment of it
as well.
I mean, I'll, I'll betransparent.
When we started, I.
Planning for this podcast.
I mean, the thing that Icontinually went back to in
conversations with you and withJoe and B and the whole team was
we've gotta be looking at thisfor like, you know, a foresee,
(45:26):
an investment for theforeseeable future.
I'm curious, you know, kind of,you know, to those out there who
may still be doubters, but maybenot even doubters, maybe they're
bought in but they just don'tknow what to do with this, you
know, do next in terms of, uh,make.
Making the next step, like whatwould you encourage them to do?
Like how can professionalservices firms take the first
(45:47):
step to assess if podcasting isthe right fit for them, and then
actually start making it happen?
John Tyreman (45:54):
Well first I think you've gotta have somebody who's
willing and able, right?
So someone needs to volunteer toget behind the mic.
That's like the first.
First step, if someone's willingto do that and walk that path,
then I would say the next stepwould be to record a pilot
episode and much like we didwhen we were producing or you
(46:17):
know, launching Spiraling Upthis show.
Um, I do offer a pilot episodepackage to, to my audience, and
it's not a free engagementbecause there is a lot of work
that goes into producing a pilotepisode.
Um, but that's, you know, I, Ido offer that so that firms can
get a taste of what it's like.
(46:37):
They can go through the motions,they can feel it before they
invest in a long-term investmentbecause you don't wanna.
Uh, commit to a six month, a 12month investment before you
truly understand what it's liketo go through those motions.
So that's what I would recommendis coming up with a pilot test
to make it real before you goall in.
Joe Pope (46:59):
The most.
Sorry, Austin, just one thing toreally hearing you say that,
John, it just makes such perfectsense.
The most impactful businessdevelopment and marketing
technique we saw in our highgrowth study recently was live
product and servicedemonstrations.
So while there's a bleeding linethere between whether it's
something you do as a part ofyour business development or if
(47:21):
it's kind of, the appetizer.
that is so logical, right?
You just want to have anopportunity to experience this
to see if it's for you withoutnecessarily having to go all in.
Austin McNair (47:32):
All right, John.
Uh, where can people learn moreabout what you do and how can
they get in touch with you?
Uh, what's, what's the, what'sthe best way for, for people to
learn more about your servicesand, and what you're up to?
John Tyreman (47:44):
Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn.
Um, check out red cedarmarketing.com.
Uh, subscribe to Breaking BizDev wherever you get your
podcasts.
spiraling up is a lot aboutmarketing for professional
services.
Breaking Biz dev is more on thebusiness development side of
things.
So if you enjoy this show,chances are you'll probably
enjoy that show as well.
Austin McNair (48:03):
Awesome.
Well, uh, thanks for, for yourcontributions here, breaking
some of these myths, letting usknow, you know, kind of what the
world of professional services,marketing and, and specifically
podcasting is, is looking like.
Good luck with everything thatyou're doing and I.
Uh, to all of our listeners, ifyou made it this far in the
episode, we just wanna thank youfor listening.
Make sure you hit the subscribebutton, make sure you like the
(48:26):
post, make sure you download theepisode.
Leave us a rating.
If you leave us a rating, we'llread it on the next episode.
Uh, we're building a communityhere.
Uh, we're having some fun.
We appreciate you guys listeningto this episode of Spiraling Up,
and we will see you on the nextone.
Take care everybody.
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