Marketing Lessons from the Super Bowl + the High Growth Firms

How do High Growth professional services firms go to market today? Download the 2025 High Growth Study to find out: https://www.hingemarketing.com/highgrowth

In this episode of Spiraling Up, the gang draws parallels between Super Bowl advertisements and professional services marketing. Then, Austin tries to trick Joe and MB in a marketing game of “Fact or Fiction” based on the results of Hinge’s recent 2025 High Growth Study. In this episode, you’ll learn:

• If creating content is still the top marketing priority
• What percentage of revenue firms dedicate to marketing today
• The key business challenges firms face, like AI integration
• How proficient firms are in using marketing metrics
• The impact of speaking at targeted events
• The effectiveness of webinars in current marketing strategies
• What type of research High-Growth firms focus on

Episode Transcript

Austin McNair (00:00):
In this week's episode of spiraling up, our
team discusses the Superbowl andit's not so many B2B
advertisements.
And then Joe and MB are going togo head to head against me.
In fact, checking this year'sdata on the fastest growing
professional services firm.
Will I be able to outsmart them?
Let's find out.

(00:21):
Welcome everybody.
This is spiraling up with hingemarketing.
Welcome to spiraling up themarketing podcast that puts a
playful twist on the usualmarketing podcast.
If you're a marketer or businessleader in the professional

(00:41):
services world, then welcome.
You are in the right place.
Each episode, we're going tocover notable stories in the
world of marketing, as well aswe are going to invite.
Leading voices in the industryto play games and share their
honest insights on what works,what doesn't work, and what's
next in the world ofprofessional services marketing.
Welcome to this episode.

(01:01):
MB, Joe, I'm, uh, happy to, uh,be on this episode again with
you guys.
Welcome to another one of ourfirst episodes of Spiraling Up.
How are you guys doing?
Um,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (01:10):
doing good.
Made it to another day.

Joe Pope (01:13):
Yeah, well, I was just excited to hear that we're
having leading voices.
And since we don't have a guesttoday, that inherently allows me
to claim being a leading voice.
I will add that to my headlineon LinkedIn probably within the
next two hours.

Austin McNair (01:27):
I love that.
You know what I hate?
I added it up before theepisode, I think between the
three of us, we've got over 24years of experience in
professional services marketing.
I think that that'll do fortoday, but yeah, you're, you're
right.
We're going to, uh, you

Joe Pope (01:42):
one third of a leading voice.
Yeah,

Austin McNair (01:45):
in future episodes here, we're going to be
talking to people from variousindustries.
Leading consultants in differentspaces, different
specializations.
So, uh, yeah, stay tuned.
We're really excited, um, forthat, but let's turn to today's
pivotal story.
MB, why don't you tell us aboutthis week's pivotal story and
what we're doing?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (02:03):
Yeah, awesome.
So let me start just byexplaining a little bit about
what pivotal stories are.
So in this segment, our intentis really to explore the
intersection between businessand culture, where we uncover
key moments and trends that areshaping our world.
And how they're impacting themarketing landscape today.
So we're going to be talkingabout things like dissecting

(02:23):
current events, you know,analyzing consumer behavior and
extracting actionable insightsthat you can use to elevate your
marketing game.
So this week we are talkingabout all things.
Superbowl.
And I know for you guys,Superbowl Sunday, it's all about
football for me.
We know, you know, I love a goodhalftime show, but as marketers,
I think that, you know, we canall really appreciate the

(02:46):
creativity and the strategicthinking that goes into a lot of
these high profile Superbowlcommercials.
Um, so let's get into it.
You know, what were the ads thatstood out to you guys the most
this year?

Joe Pope (02:59):
Oh, good, good, good question.
Um, the one that comes to mindright off the bat.
And this is probably mostlybecause of my undying love for
Baja Blast Zero, which is, in myopinion, the overall number one
seed of software, uh, softdrinks is the Taco Bell seal
seal, uh, where he's seal, youknow, seal, the singer is, uh,

(03:20):
superimposed on his.
An actual seal and he startssinging his, he starts singing
his ballad.
It's been transitioned to beTaco Bell themed.
Honestly, the world would be abetter place with more seal.
If we're being honest, just, hecan just sing.
He's like, uh, he's like MorganFreeman where it's like, you
want him to narrate your lifeseal.
He should just sing to me on adaily basis.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (03:40):
Real talk, the only thing that I thought
after I watched that commercialwas that is going to give my
kids nightmares for sure.

Joe Pope (03:48):
It's a dark, dark look into how my mind thinks is
causing children nightmares.
So, uh, Austin, you up?

Austin McNair (03:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm on your children's
nightmare theme as well.
My favorite was the, uh,Tostino's Pizza Rolls, uh,
commercial, mostly because Ilove, uh, Tim Robinson and Sam,
Sam Richardson.
They're two comedians that, uh,make a show on Netflix called, I
think you should leave.
Which I highly recommend.
I do get, you know, I dorecommend this show to a lot of

(04:14):
friends.
It's not for everybody.
Um, but wow, seeing them in aSuper Bowl commercial, uh,
brought a lot of delight to myheart.
Even if, uh, it, you know, thatcommercial also with like a
little alien that was there, uh,May have been a little awkward
for, uh, some kids and familiesas well, too.
Especially, I think theyreleased a separate, like,
internet only version, which islike a little bit more intense.

(04:37):
But no, creative, clever, andhad my two favorite, uh
Celebrities in there.
MB, what about you?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (04:45):
that was a good one.
Um, I liked the, the Michelobultra pickleball, uh,
commercial.
I thought that that was justlike, it was funny, but not too
slapstick, funny, uh, kind ofclever.
Um, so that was a good one.
But the one that just liketotally stole the show for me
was the Nike ad.
You can't win.
So when, um, I just thought thedelivery was just.

(05:05):
Absolutely iconic.
And it was a great example ofpurpose driven marketing.
Um, after the Super Bowl, theyactually, they interviewed, uh,
Nike's chief marketing marketingofficer, um, Nicole Hubbard
Graham, um, and not a directquote, but she's basically
talking about, you know, how theNike brand, you know, it wasn't
built on.

(05:25):
Google ads or Google clicks.
It was, you know, it's reallybuilt on feelings and, you know,
big, disruptive, irreverent,emotional ideas.
And I just, I thought that theyreally executed on that.
And, um, I think when you, youknow, can connect with your
audience on that deeper level,being able to do that, you know,
you are able to create that,that positive brand perception,

(05:49):
which.
obviously like ultimately leadsto, uh, the brand loyalty, um,
which is, which is the goal.

Joe Pope (05:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that was their firstcommercial in a long time,
right.
In terms of a super bowl spot.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (06:01):
Yeah.
27 years.
So they haven't done a superbowl ad since 1998.
I know.
I was surprised by that too.

Austin McNair (06:07):
I did not know that at

Joe Pope (06:09):
Yeah.
Seriously.
Because I mean, you think Nikebeing synonymous with football
all the time, right.
Uh, but I, I, I think thepurpose angle there, Nike's
definitely embraced that in thelast decade.
Uh, but, and, and especiallyright now with lots going on
that it was a very timely, uh,an advertisement, but, and one
of the things when we weretalking about what the, this

(06:30):
pivotal story section should bethis week, uh, in this podcast
was, we just rattled off a bunchof different commercials.
We didn't, you know, we didn'treally say like, let's make sure
one's B2B, one's B2C, thingsalong those lines.
and one of the things that wassuper interesting to us when I
know when we were talking aboutthis segment and it's, uh, in
its entirety was an articlerecently.

(06:52):
Vanessa Chin, uh, pennedsomething for, she penned an
article for AdWeek, uh, on theirwebsite.
It's making the case for why B2Bshould try to buck that trend.
Why there's actually a place forthat style of, uh, that style of
advertisement to make itsappearance on the biggest stage.
A few of the, a few of thosereasons that she cited, uh, some

(07:14):
of them, probably the obviousones, 120 million plus eyes on
it, TV and streaming.
And I believe this was actuallythe most watched.
Super Bowl of all time.
NFL could not be a hotterticket.
And you know, you add in likeyou said, and be the reasons
people watch the Super Bowl.
They're not always football.
Um, they are things likecommercial.
They are seeing what's going tohappen in the halftime show.

(07:35):
You know, how is Drake going toget dissed this time?
Uh, we, poor Drake.
He's having a rough go.
Uh, but yeah, I mean, there wasanother reason though.
And now for trying to reallybig.
Resonate this to professionalservices.
She referenced a study that wasconducted by a Bain and Google,
two big names, uh, that foundthat B2B buyers will make a list

(07:59):
of vendors at the beginning oftheir consideration search, uh,
and that list that they thenbring into the evaluation, the
interview process 90 percent ofthe time that.
List will contain the endingchoice.
The group that they select willcome from that original day one
list.

(08:19):
Well, when you're making a dayone list, a lot of times think
about how you're, what's theprocess you're going to go
through.
It's going to be what pops intoyour mind.
What's what's the brand thatresonates with me.
So if, if we are making a casefor initiatives or efforts to
grow your brand visibility, it'sright there, right?
Because if you're not on thatday, one list, you're having to,

(08:39):
in a sense, unseat.
That day, 1 list, you're havingto climb an even taller hill to
get there.
in professional services, in asense, you have to think that
way as well.
You have to be able to buildthat brand visibility as a part
of your overall larger strategy.

Austin McNair (08:55):
Yeah.
Joe, one thing that you'resaying that, that stands out to
me, um, it's about thatvisibility piece.
This, this might be a surpriseto some people, you know, who
have managed a marketing budgetfor quite a while, or, you know,
you, you, every year you'redeciding what should go in your
marketing budget.
So our, our benchmark for highgrowth firms shows that the
fastest growing professionalservices firms, they're putting

(09:19):
50 percent of their effort andinvestment into the top of the
funnel marketing techniques.
So when we're talking aboutsuper bowl ads, you know,
professional services, you know,99.
9 percent of professionalservice companies.
The Super Bowl is like way even,it's so far out of the
stratosphere, it's not evenpossible, right?
But, what about like, what aboutlike a conference, right?
Like a conference sponsorship,where the leading voices and the

(09:40):
leading players are.
Like, is there, have youinvested in a strategy there,
even though it's a little bitmore soft, it's a little bit
more higher in the marketingfunnel per se, as you might say.
Um, I, I, when we talk to a lotof our clients, I, they are
surprised to hear that so mucheffort and investment.
into that top of funnelvisibility piece.

(10:01):
Um, like Vanessa said in thearticle, it, you know, I, you
want to be top of mind.
You want to be first on that, onthat first list.
So making visibility plays, eventhough they don't necessarily
generate leads right away orconvert right away, it's still
got to be a part of themarketing mix, I think.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (10:17):
There's also just the reality of the,
you know, the, the marketingbudget, right?
I mean, if we're trying toequate this to the Super Bowl
ads, I mean, I think it was 8,000, 000, uh, for a 30, 30
seconds of airtime for a SuperBowl commercial this year.
It's just not in the cards for alot of B2B.
And as you said, 99.
9, uh, probably a percent of.

(10:38):
Okay.
Professional services firms,

Austin McNair (10:39):
yeah, and it's not to say that there were zero,
right?
Like Joe, I think you, youcalled out that like Salesforce,
they, they ran a spot and therewas a couple others and what,
what were the themes of thoseads, right?
They were, they were starstudded.
Um, Joe, I think you weretalking about that, that before.

Joe Pope (10:55):
Yeah.
Matthew McConaughey.
Uh, he's, he's, he's been theSalesforce figurehead for a
couple of years now.
Uh, and I think this year he'sgetting like rained on, for
example.
And, uh, you know, uh, you gotWoody Harrelson hanging out
across the street.
And so there's like a humor playto this as well, and creating
and tying in how, Salesforceproducts, I Our boy, Matt, you

(11:18):
know, he's not going to getrained on because he wouldn't be
booked into an outdoor spotduring a storm.
Right?
So there's some humor.
There's some levity to that.
Uh, you know, but I think one ofthe things that really stood out
as well in what you were sayingearlier in terms of the emotion
side of this, uh, that's a,that's another angle to here
too.
Right?
Like, cause if you can draw to aspecific, yeah.

(11:40):
And this is what I was talkingabout with the B2B side, that
issue, those challenges, thingsalong those lines.
I don't think you need to be inthe Superbowl stratosphere to be
able to capture that type ofexpertise and that type of the
space of the marketplace ofideas.
Um, you know, I think one thingfrom the hinge perspective that
we've seen over and over andover again, both with our

(12:01):
clients and in our research isthat when organizations make an
investment into.
Visibility of their experts,their individuals that allows
you to really kind of play offthe one to one emotion, right?
It's you're not the big brandanymore.
You're Austin McNair.
You're Mary Blanche, right?
I mean, there's there is aconnection piece there that can

(12:23):
help make.
Uh, and and seal the deal whensomebody is going through and
thinking, who are the experts inthe space?
Or who's the talker?
Who's the person who's talkingon this issue these days?
And and when we go back to thatlarger discussion point about
being on that day, 1 list,that's an angle that doesn't
cost you millions upon millionsof dollars to build.

(12:43):
Organizations in theprofessional services space.
I mean, if you're not contentmarketing right now, you're not,
you're not marketing, right?
I don't think I need to explainthat to anybody who's going to
listen to this podcast, butstart to brand those efforts
around individuals, aroundexperts.
I there what's there.
I remember the old thinkingthere was, and we've heard,

(13:03):
certainly we've heard people saythis.
It's you take an expert.
What happens if they leave?
I'm like, okay, well, whathappens if they don't stay?
If you're not thinking along thelines of being productive and
forward thinking, you're goingto continue to run into those
types of challenges.
So, I mean, when somebody saysthat to me, it's I have to a lot
of times resist the urge to eyeroll.
Now that we're all on zoom, uh,and in high definition, uh, but

(13:27):
yeah, I mean, it's, it is aconstant fact here that if we
can make the right types ofinvestments in the right places,
you don't need millions ofdollars.
It's.
Okay.
Being smart with those dollars.

Austin McNair (13:38):
Well, these are, uh, some pretty, I would say
rock solid, uh, Reflections hereon the Super Bowl advertising.
I mean, I don't, I'm glad thatwe're focused on the, the
advertising piece, because Idon't want to think about the,
the game.
Uh, the Eagles, uh, not a fan.
Joe, not a fan.
Uh, NB, I can't remember.
What, what, what NFL team doyou, do you back?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (14:00):
lines all

Austin McNair (14:01):
Lions.
Okay, we've got a couple ofLions

Joe Pope (14:03):
Well, that worked well for us

Austin McNair (14:04):
Yeah, that worked well for the commanders

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (14:06):
Yeah.
Let's,

Austin McNair (14:07):
Uh, but yeah, hopefully next year, uh, I'm not
going to complain though.
Whatever, you know, let's, uh,transition now into our next
segment, uh, which we arecalling fact or fiction.
Alright everyone, this is the,uh, portion of the podcast here
where I want to pause.
I want to let you know that, uh,if you haven't yet, you need to

(14:29):
download Hinge's High growthstudy.
And that's from this year, 2025,you go to hinge marketing.
com slash high growth.
You'll get the free executivesummary of the research results.
It's something we're going to beusing and talking about in our
next segment here.
But if you haven't read, gottenthat yet, go to that URL, pick
up your free report.
Uh, it is a great way to kind ofget to know what the fastest

(14:51):
growing, uh, firms, uh, aredoing in the professional
services space.

Joe Pope (14:54):
We just talked about visible expertise.
Visible expertise is animportant piece of any marketing
program for professionalservices organizations.
So important, in fact, thatwe've written now two books on
this, including the VisibleExpert Revolution.
And you can find the VisibleExpert Revolution on Amazon.
I think that's pretty much theplace where we've committed to

(15:14):
making it available, but you canhave it in paper copy.
Uh, you can have it in hardback.
And for those of you who arebeing sustainability focused.
You can download it for your ereader as well.

Austin McNair (15:25):
There is an e reader version, that's true.
Cool.
So, High Growth Study, VisibleExpert Book.
There's a lot of resources outthere that we're putting out
there to help you grow in yourprofessional services career and
help your company grow faster.
Enjoy.
All right.
It's time to move to our secondsegment of the podcast.
As you guys know, in spiralingup, we like to have a little bit

(15:47):
of fun, bring a little bit oflightness and, and, and, and
good positive energy to theworld of professional services
marketing.
We do that by playing somegames.
And so in today's game.
Uh, we're going to go head tohead.
It's going to be MB and Joeversus myself.
You guys, I have put together aseries of, I think it's seven

(16:07):
statements and they're going toeither be true or false.
And the source of this is goingto be from our 2025 high growth
study.
So my intent here is to see if Ican trick you with some of these
statements.
See if I can lead you, you know,kind of in certain directions,
but ultimately here, what we'retrying to decide, what we're
trying to, to, to share with ouraudience is what were some of

(16:29):
the primary findings from the2025 high growth study and how
could they implement some ofthat at their business?
You guys ready to get started?

Joe Pope (16:38):
going seven for seven.

Austin McNair (16:39):
All right.
Seven for seven.
He said,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (16:41):
I'm gonna be scorekeeper,

Austin McNair (16:43):
okay, yeah, be scorekeeper

Joe Pope (16:45):
have like a pad of paper.
You're going to keep score.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (16:48):
You sure do.

Austin McNair (16:49):
Okay.
Yeah.
If I didn't say it, we're goingwith this week's game is fact or
fiction.
So Joe and be number one fact orfiction.
The percentage of revenue thatprofessional services firms
dedicate to their marketing isactually going up right now.

(17:10):
Fact or fiction.

Joe Pope (17:13):
Okay.
So we want us to work togetheron this, right?
Like

Austin McNair (17:16):
Yeah.
Work together.
What do

Joe Pope (17:17):
together with a combined answer.
So I know last year that, uh,marketing expenses went down.
Uh, that was, uh, that was afinding that I remember from
this study.
Uh, now of course.
You know, there's so manyfactors that lead into various
things here.
I don't know.
And B, I think my mindimmediately goes towards that

(17:37):
because it went down last year,then spend probably went up this
year.
You know, just, you know, yourrise, you've got your equaling
out, if you will, like you'reprogressing to the mean, if you
would talk about a three yearaverage.
So do you like that logic or,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (17:54):
It's, yeah, I'm going with fact.
A hundred percent.
And this also just makes methink of a whole nother game
that we have to have eventually,where it's like you hit the
buzzer.
Because if we had been playingthat way and we were playing
against each other, I was, Imean, no thought required,

Joe Pope (18:08):
Oh, so you were, you were, you were fat from the
start.
Okay.
We're going seven for seven.
And be as confident, I thinkwe're supposed to say final
answer.
Is

Austin McNair (18:17):
Okay.
Final answer is in.
So you guys, you guys, what I'mhearing you say is there's a
bounce back here in terms ofmarketing spending.
You guys were right that lastyear marketing spending was
down.
However, you were wrong becauseit continued to stay down in
2025.
So according to our data between2020 and 2022 professional

(18:40):
services firms Made biginvestments in marketing
everything like the wholepercentage of revenue shot up.
I think it was around 15 percentsomewhere between 12 50 percent
over that three year period butthen Last year big pullback and
actually it has stayed down atthose levels for this past year
as well So actually I'm one forone.

(19:02):
I tricked you guys but I, I'mmore curious.
What do you guys think?
Um, you know, I, I know there'sa lot of, uh, marketing
directors out there that aretrying to advocate for, for more
marketing dollars right now.
Um, what kind of advice do weusually typically give when
marketing directors are tryingto fight for more, um, you know,

(19:26):
a larger percentage of, of, ofmoney to come their way?

Joe Pope (19:30):
Yeah.
I it's a, it's a good question.
I mean, other than being able topoint to things like the high
gross study and some of thevarious ways of which
organizations are getting thebest bang from their buck in
terms of.
Efforts or channels, tactics,elements along those lines.
It's a big reason why we makesuch a commitment to developing
these types of content piecesand putting them out into the

(19:52):
sphere of words and thoughts.
But I mean, a few that come tomind certainly are that just.
Because times may change.
I mean, you talk about thatbubble, if you will, if we're
going to use that term, I thinka major piece of that was, of
course, the influx of money thatwas being pushed into the
marketing space through thingslike PPP loans and other areas.

(20:14):
Right?
So, um, you know, you get thattype of experience, you get that
type of element, but it doesn'tchange the fact that
organizations are going to needto put themselves out there,
market themselves.
The space can't be getting evenmore competitive than it is.
You've got.
Challenges of differentiation,you've got mergers and
acquisitions running rampantand, you know, M and a, although

(20:38):
a way to grow an organization isnot a marketing tactic.
Right?
And it's also not realistic fora good portion of people and
organizations.
So, uh, you can't just expect tothink that if you don't put any
time or thought or money intothis, that you're going to see
results, uh, generative AI.
That's the big topic right now.
Right?
In terms of, uh, where.
Yeah.

(20:58):
SEO was king for a while, andnow you're seeing editorials
saying SEO is dead.
So there is still a place formarketing investment.
If, if I'm answering yourquestion and also touting the
fact that you've got agencieslike ours that understand this
space and we're, you know, we'recapable of helping you get
there.

Austin McNair (21:18):
Definitely.
Any other thoughts for you?
I mean, I know you've talked toa lot of our clients over the
years about, um, you know, howthey make investments in
marketing.
I mean, have you noticed any,any kind of particular
challenges that clients aretypically having when it comes
to advocating for more marketingdollars?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (21:36):
Yeah, you know, well, first, I think I
have to taper my confidence alittle bit because I was really,
really sure of my answer.
So congrats on the first point.
Um, but, you know, no, I, Ithink, you know, with the
clients that we have, you know,I think one of the reasons I
was.
you know, so surprised isbecause, you know, from an

(21:57):
account perspective for hand,you know, we are continuing to
build into these accounts with alot of the routine based model
that we have around thedifferent digital content
creation.
And so, um, we're seeing a lotof success there.
Um, so it is, I find it very,very interesting that that's,
you know, It's a littledifferent than, than what the

Joe Pope (22:20):
At the global level.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (22:21):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.

Austin McNair (22:22):
Yeah.
I mean, one kind of to put kindof tie a bow on this.
I mean, if you're looking forany kind of advocacy, or point
or research statement to kind ofback up advocating for more
marketing spend.
Our high growth study validatesthat high growth firms actually
spend more on marketing thanslower growing companies.
So there is a correlation therebetween the companies that are

(22:44):
paying attention more, there areinvesting more, they are, you
know, going deeper, like you'resaying, and be into kind of the
content marketing space andreally taking it levels deeper.
Um, there is a correlation therebetween those and the companies
that are growing faster.

Joe Pope (22:58):
makes sense.
That makes sense.

Austin McNair (23:00):
All right.
So it's one to zero.
I, um, I, did you guys think Iwas going to start off with a
lie?
Ah, I'm kind of a tricky guy.
So don't try to, uh, don't,don't, don't think of it like

Joe Pope (23:10):
into it.

Austin McNair (23:11):
Don't.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, you know, maybe,maybe I did make the, the, the,
maybe these are all going to belies.
We'll see.
Um, all right.
Fact or fiction creating contentis the top marketing priority of
2025 for high growth firms.
Let me give you a little bit ofcolor commentary here.
Here's some other options thatmight be the number one answer.

(23:34):
Uh, outreach for speaking andwriting, developing thought
leaders, social media marketing,and brand differentiation.
So there's, there's four otheroptions for you.
Uh, and then what I'm saying isthat content marketing was the
top priority of high growthfirms.
What do you think?
Fact or fiction?
Ha ha ha.

Joe Pope (23:56):
I kind of like the last one, if I'm being honest,
the brand differentiation as a,like a, as a concern.
I mean, content marketing isobviously an extremely important
piece and we talked it already,but talk about it a few times
already in this episode.
Um, Also, I don't trust you atthis point.
You're just going to keep givingus false ones to make us look

(24:17):
bad.
So, uh, Envy, what do you think?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (24:21):
Uh, I was feeling good about content
marketing until I heard,

Joe Pope (24:26):
All

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (24:27):
I heard the last one.
Now I'm not sure.
No, I, I feel, I feel confidentit's not the middle three.
So, what do you think?

Joe Pope (24:33):
yeah, let's, let's, let's go false.
Ah,

Austin McNair (24:38):
it's going to be two to zero.
My direction here, uh, contentcreation actually is the top
marketing priority of 2025.
Um, and I did kind of a reverseorder there.
Number two on the list was branddifferentiation, followed by
social media marketing, um,developing thought leaders was
four, and then outreach andspeaking and writing was number

(24:59):
five.
Um, Yeah, this is this has stoodout to me, um, in in previous
years as well, because I thinkin the 2024 study, this was, um,
also the number one answer.
Brand differentiation.
If you kind of look back a fewyears in our research, this is a
10 year old study, by the way.
So this is we've been doing thisfor a while.
Um, the brand differentiationwas number one for quite some

(25:20):
time.
Um, and we did talk, you know,as a marketing agency,
especially like, how do we helpcompanies differentiate
themselves?
Um, we've entered a period now,though, where I think that As
far as like a non negotiablemarketing priority for high
growth firms, it starts with thecontent.
And then you can even fold inthe layers of those other
options I gave you, like how dowe make con content, for

(25:42):
example, that is differentiated,that is a little bit different.
How do we make content that doesdevelop our thought leaders and
kind of raise their v theirtheir expertise of the
visibility of their expertise.
Um, but yeah, content marketingis the number one priority.
You guys have any thoughts onthat?

Joe Pope (26:00):
well, I think you've kind of laid it out there and
okay, here's my question sinceyou've got the data right in
front of you, what was the gapbetween content and brand
differentiation

Austin McNair (26:09):
Okay, so you're asking about the, the, the gap
between, uh, the

Joe Pope (26:14):
number one and two, if you will?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (26:16):
Yeah.

Austin McNair (26:16):
It was about five percentage points.
So it wasn't the, it wasn't ahuge gap.
It wasn't a small gap.
Uh, it's, it's interesting.
We'll put the chart on thescreen for people, but it's kind
of just goes down about three tofour percentage points from
content creation down to branddifferentiation down to social
media marketing.
Um, and, and from there, um, soyeah, those were the top

(26:37):
priorities for, for the highgrowth firms this year.

Joe Pope (26:40):
I think it's also just, I mean, we're obviously
picking at various elementshere, but everything that you
referenced and everything thatyou can see on the screen is
important.
Like these are the top ways thatorganizations are utilizing as a
part of their, their marketingapproach.
Apparatus, if you will,

Austin McNair (26:58):
All right.
So it is two to zero.
Uh, let's see if I can keep thisgoing with, you know, my, my
tricky fact or fictionquestions.
So Joe and B fact or fictionunpredictability in the
marketplace is the number onebusiness challenge of
professional services firms.
So let me, similar to the lastone, let me give you a couple of

(27:21):
alternatives that were at thetop of the list.
Uh, increased competition fromnew competitors.
Was, was it within the topthree?
As well as incorporating AI andautomation into your business.
But my statement is saying thatthe number one is
unpredictability in themarketplace.
What do you guys think?
Fact or fiction?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (27:41):
I was gonna say a truth.
It's, it's fact.
It's a fact.
Yeah.

Joe Pope (27:44):
I, I lean that way too.
I think unpredictability, you'vegot plenty going on in the
marketplace right now.
That would make sense.
Obviously these are the topthree AI.
Big, big, big talking point.
But I also think that if you'retalking about cross professional
services, some of these subindustries and niches, they
just, they're not in that realmyet.

(28:06):
So AI doesn't make much sense tome.
Watch it be AI, but yeah, we'llgo with that.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (28:10):
Well, but even with AI, like, I mean, I
think there is some, like,uncertainty there as well,
right?
Um, with like what that is andwhat's to be and what's to be
coming.
So I, I, I even think that is acontributing factor to why it's
a,

Austin McNair (28:26):
Mm hmm.
So in, in 2024, unpredictabilityin the marketplace was the
number one business challenge,but this year it was actually
flipped.
Incorporating AI and automationinto your business was the
number one business challenge ofprofessional services firms

(28:48):
across the board.
So regardless of growthcategory, not high growth, not
low growth, just like looking atthe space in general, um, 50
percent uh, had this as the topchallenge, uh, or as one of
their top challenges.
Um, the next one on the list wasincreased competition from new
competitors.
That was at 37%.

(29:10):
So, when we talk about like AIand technology, uh, being kind
of this big theme in the space,uh, it's clear that coming off
of this big year of AI justbeing in every headline.
Um, being in everyadvertisement, uh, being at the,
you know, in every boardroomconversation, um, you know, this

(29:31):
has translated into our datawhere people are wondering,
marketers are wondering, how dowe incorporate this into our
workflows?
How do we work, you know, intoour business, um, and get
something out of it?
Because I think, I think a lotof people are worried or
concerned that if they're notusing AI and other people in the
space are, that they're going toget left behind.
Um, so.

(29:51):
MBI, you know, I'll give youmaybe a half a point there by
saying that, you know, AI kindof, you know, as to the
unpredictability.
But, um, you know, one thingthat we did see in this year's
data is that the narrativereally did kind of turn the page
on unpredictability, which isreally a sentiment from the era
of the pandemic and like howbusinesses were feeling for
that.
And now it's like now wespecifically know what's what

(30:14):
the unpredictability is.
It's all about AI andautomation.

Joe Pope (30:18):
mean, I think there's logic behind it.
The thing that surprises me isthat while I could certainly see
it in a few industries, uh, tohave that be 50 percent across
the board, recognizing that thisstudy is, you know, what
thousand plus respondents,right, Austin, uh, it is a big
eye opener, especially for Ithink it's, it's, it's really

(30:40):
Leaders and organizations thataren't talking about it, because
if the organizations that aregrowing fast and their peers are
talking about it and you're notconnect the dots.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (30:50):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's at the forefront
of of everyone's mind right now.
So, I think that definitelyunderscores kind of where we're
headed.

Austin McNair (30:58):
it does.
And I'm excited that in futureepisodes, we're going to get to
talk to some guests who are kindof leaders in this space and
maybe more in the cutting edgeof this.
I mean, I will say as someonemyself who's trying to stay as
like, you know, open to testingnew tools and kind of
integrating this into the waythat we market ourselves.
Um, it's challenging.
I mean, it just changes everyday.

(31:19):
And then it's like you think youfound like a good tool and it's
like, Oh no, this one over hereis way better.
It's just like It's that thespace is so hot and kind of
bubbling right now with like newstuff Um, I can see why this was
number one on the list Allright.
So I think that you guys Ibelieve in you guys.
I think that there is a way foryou guys to come back I I know

(31:40):
I've been a little bit, you knowI led you off with a lie and
then you know, I've been kind ofteasing you a little bit I think
you guys can make a comebackhere.
It

Joe Pope (31:49):
well, you did give us a free half point, which we are

Austin McNair (31:51):
Okay.
Right.
So it's three to three to 0.
5, I guess.
Yeah.
Um, let's go into this next one.
All right.
So MB Joe fact or fiction, mosthigh growth firms rate
themselves as highly proficientwhen it comes to capturing and
using marketing metrics.

(32:14):
So, this was a question that weincluded in this year's study.
I think it was probably one ofthe, the most interesting, you
know, uh, questions that we'veadded to the study this year.
Um, and by growth category,we're looking at fast growing
firms, slower growing firms.
Um, my question to you guys is,of the high growth firms, were
they confident, were they highlyconfident in the proficiency of

(32:35):
capturing and using marketing,uh, metrics?
It would make sense.

Joe Pope (32:41):
I'm going to say fiction right off the bat and
there is probably the worstscientific rationale behind
this.
Based on the conversations thatI fairly regularly have in my
role here at Inge in talking toorganizations of all different
shapes and sizes and alldifferent growth categories, if

(33:04):
they're saying that they'rehighly proficient.
In this study, I'm concernedwith what actually a lot of
other pieces are coming frombecause a good portion of them
are not.
And if they feel like they are,the actual results that they're
getting from it aren't verysolid.
And we just see that across,it's, it's one of the biggest

(33:24):
things that we're helpingclients with on an ongoing basis
is helping them develop thatproficiency.
And unifying efforts at the topend of the funnel all the way
down to the bottom.
So, uh, clearly I'm verypassionate about this.
So MB, talk me out of it.
1.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (33:39):
no, I'm not gonna talk you out of it.
I was gonna say for your lastpoint.
Um, I, I would, I would agreewith you.

Austin McNair (33:45):
Uh, you guys are right.
Yeah, that's now, uh, three,three to one and a half, uh, on
the scoreboard here.
Yeah.

Joe Pope (33:54):
call it a comeback.

Austin McNair (33:55):
To me, I, you know, Joe, I, I know that you're
kind of on the front lines,especially with talking with
some of our prospects and kindof newer clients about this.
And, um, but it has been a themethat's been coming up quite a
bit is just how, um, you know,when it comes to using the
marketing metrics and capturingthem, um, Um, Um, it is a
challenge.
I mean, there's so many inpeople's tech stacks.

(34:18):
Smart tech stacks are allcompletely different.
You have people that are in theSalesforce side, you know,
universe, you have people in theHubSpot universe and then all
these kind of shared platformsin between platforms like
LinkedIn, then everybody's on,you know, different email
marketing platforms.
Uh, I mean, it, it gets messy.
And I think that most people,most professional services firms

(34:39):
have their own uniquechallenges.
Um, and so, So, when it came tothe actual confidence levels of,
who was saying that they wereproficient, like, or highly
proficient in their, usingmarketing, and business
development metrics, only 11percent of the high growth

Joe Pope (34:56):
that makes sense.

Austin McNair (34:57):
tag themselves as highly proficient.
Now, there was an advantagethere, the, the, the low growth
firms, the no growth firms.
Um, they were far less likely tosay they were highly proficient,
even somewhat proficient.
They were less likely of the lowgrowth category.
It was 66 percent said they hadlow proficiency, um, in, in

(35:19):
capturing and using marketingand business development
metrics.
It just seems like a big themethat I think we should continue
to explore and touch on because.
I have a feeling that this issecretly a big challenge for
marketers.
Um, I'm going to go out and justsay kind of a bold statement.
Like I think as marketers, weare expected to be thinking

(35:41):
about ROI all the time, right?
It's like one on one levelmarketing.
It's the, it's like what welearn in marketing school,
right?
It's like you, you do themarketing thing and you measure
the results.
But I, I, I honestly think that,um, It is the best kept secret
in marketing right now thatpeople are really having a hard
time.
So, like having solid, moreconcrete, uh, use out of their

(36:06):
marketing metrics and marketingdata.
I think people are really, um,struggling with just the volume
of it and the disorganized,disorganization of it.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (36:15):
Yeah, well, there's so many tools out
there now.
Um, you know, it's kind of hardto, to know, you know, which one
to go with or which has, youknow, the most accurate data.
And I think 1 thing that we'reseeing a lot of too, is that
because there are so manysystems I've built within an
infrastructure of anorganization, you know.
They're, they're siloed and thatdata, the data isn't all

(36:37):
necessarily talking to oneanother.
So, you know, when you cancreate, uh, an environment where
you have an ecosystem of toolsthat are all speaking to one
another, and then using that tocreate the dashboards to give
you those marketing metrics, Imean, that's, that's the gold

Austin McNair (36:51):
So, um, one of the ways that when we did this
part of the research, one of theinteresting things we did.
We first had people ratethemselves, you know, on a scale
of one to ten, which is where weland the highly proficient,
somewhat proficient, or lowproficiency.
If the company said that theywere in that low proficiency
category, we actually gave thema verbatim box, and we just

(37:13):
said, why did you give thatanswer?
Like, why did you say that youfeel like you have a low
proficiency?
Here, here's some of the thingsthat they came up with.
Lack of bandwidth and lack ofexpertise.
Not systematically capturing thedata, low return on investment.
So there's an idea there that,you know, actually, actually

(37:35):
cap, you know, paying attentionto your marketing mix or
marketing, uh, metrics is notworth the time.
Um, we also had someone sayingthe data is not accurate or
reliable.
It takes too much time.
Uh, time, time.
I see time a lot on here.
Uh, we don't measure.
Uh, we don't have time.

(37:56):
It's just a lot of the same

Joe Pope (37:58):
so wild.

Austin McNair (37:59):
Um, but it's just really fascinating, the reasons.
And I'm excited to unpack thismore in future episodes when we
talk to folks about this.
But it's like, again, I can'tgo, I can't stress enough.
It seems like, um, this is amore obvious problem that
people, that many professionalservices marketers are willing
to admit.

Joe Pope (38:18):
Yeah.
It's the time thing is so crazy,right?
Because in, in concept, ifyou're using these types of
tools, getting this data andinformation should be faster.
should be at your fingertips.
It should be going through thedashboards and graphics that are
promised to you by the numerousSAS organizations that we've

(38:40):
referenced in some of which canafford Superbowl ads.
But what this to me, like yousaid, shines a big light on is,
is probably opportunity, franklyspeaking, that if high growth
firms are kind of at a level,but no, and low growth firms are
like bottomed out, completelynot there.
If you're.

(39:00):
Even just trying to make inroadsinto being able to find success
with, from your marketingefforts, making a good
commitment to this.
And that probably comes in alldifferent shapes and sizes.
Sounds like we definitely needto get a guest in this space on
the implementation side to joinus and discuss it.
Um, yeah, I, I think thatthere's an inroad there that

(39:21):
are, that our listeners, thatmarketers specifically need to
be thinking about.

Austin McNair (39:25):
Alright, so MB, can you remind us, what's the
score?
Right now,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (39:30):
you would often, uh, it is three to 1.
5.

Austin McNair (39:35):
three to 1.
5.
Okay, great.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (39:38):
call it a comeback yet, but

Joe Pope (39:39):
No, it's about to happen though.
We're going to two goal lead inhockey is the most dangerous
lead.
And then you've got a two and ahalf goalie or

Austin McNair (39:46):
There we go.

Joe Pope (39:47):
I can't do math.

Austin McNair (39:49):
All right.
And be Joe factor fictionspeaking at targeted events has
the best return on effort forhigh growth firms.
So all of the marketingtechniques that we asked
companies about what they do,how much effort do they put into
it?
And then also how much impactthey get back from it.

(40:09):
My statement is that the numberone, uh, marketing technique on
that list is speaking attargeted conferences.
What say you?
Fact or fiction?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (40:20):
you give us some

Joe Pope (40:21):
Yeah.
Are we getting the top three?

Austin McNair (40:23):
Uh, top three I don't have, but some other
examples would be things like,uh, social, networking on social
media, email marketing, um, Uh,I probably should have had a top
three here to confuse you guys.
So considering I don't have thetop three ready for you guys,
what do you guys think?

(40:43):
Factor fiction.

Joe Pope (40:47):
Since you don't have the top three ready for us.
I, I really definitely leantowards the fiction angle,
especially since you've nowgiven that would probably be
the, what, the fourth of fivefictions.
And you, you seem to be playingthat role today.

Austin McNair (41:02):
I'll give you another chance here.
I don't have an alternative foryou.
This is kind of my statement.
Is it fact or fiction?

Joe Pope (41:10):
I think speaking is important.
I'm sure it's in the top five.
Um, but I, I'm really, I'm goingto lean into the, I think you
are continued to try to jerk usaround.
So I'm going to go with fictionwith that.
I also know that last year therewas a huge business development
tools, collaterals, materialangle on this exact same

(41:32):
question, uh, in 2024.
So, uh, I'm going to stick withthat, that being kind of
probably what's at the top andI'll go with fiction.
How did I sound?
Did I sound convincing and be meversus Austin in this
circumstance?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (41:46):
I'm going to go with fiction too.
I think it's up there.
I just don't think it's.
That's the number one.

Austin McNair (41:52):
I tried to give you guys a chance there.
It is a fact.
It is a fact.
It is the number one, uh, uh,marketing technique when it
comes to return on effort.
Now, Joe, I think what you werethinking through was we also
measure impact, right?
What are the top things wherehigh growth firms get the most
impact?
And there you see things likedemos and consultation offers,

(42:15):
business development materials,the things that help close
deals, right?
That's the easiest thing to kindof like adjust and say, well,
there's the impact.
We used that, we sold the deal.
Speaking engagements was thenumber one thing when it came to
return on effort for high growthfirms.
I think it just goes into thenature of what it means to be an

(42:37):
authoritative voice and to be ina space of people that are
relevant to the buyers thatyou're trying to get in front
of.
And if you have that combinationof like you're speaking directly
to a challenge that your buyershave and you're, you're, you're
in a position of authority, itworks really, really well.
And I think it stands behindkind of like, That overall

(42:58):
strategy of having thoughtleaders at your company.
Be a part of the marketingprogram.
So, uh, yeah, I tried to steeryou guys kind of towards the
fact that time.
But what do you think?
Does it make sense?

Joe Pope (43:12):
Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it's a clearly an amazing
way to create visibility,especially when it's paired with
some of the other activitiesthat, you know, organizations
who are taking a seriousapproach to conferences, not
just the, you know, let's justfly out there and have a good
time.
Not that I'm against that.
I think we're going to beheading to a conference.

(43:32):
A few of us.
In Arizona with our, our friendsat the association of accounting
marketing, and that's always agood time.
Uh, but you know, the idea that,you know, on top of that, if you
can create visibility by havingone of those experts of which
we've been talking about thebenefit of that, um, there's a
nice way to just create that.
Flagpole in a issue or a topicor things along those lines,

(43:54):
because, I mean, if you've gotsomeone who's able to able to
stand up on that stage for 10,15, 30, 60 minutes and deliver
something that is of value, thatis insightful, that it's tied to
data and metrics, then, uh.
Yeah, impact should follow

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (44:12):
Yeah, I mean, this is another one where
it's like, you know, we pushthis so much with our own
clients and our visible expertprogram, you know, it's just,
it's, it's really important and,you know, you need to, you need
to be doing it, especially, youknow, if you want to
differentiate yourself and inthe marketplace with your firm
and, and just yourself as avisible expert.

(44:33):
Um, so again, like, I'm stillsurprised it's number one, but,
um, yeah.
Congrats on the point, Austin.

Austin McNair (44:40):
Thank you.
Yeah, that might we might needto put this set the point system
aside here in a minute.
Um, I mean,

Joe Pope (44:47):
Jesus

Austin McNair (44:48):
look, we're learning here.
This was challenging.
You know, I'm putting you guyson the spot with, you know, with
with regard to data.
It's not always the easiestthing to it.
To to know, you know, what'sfact and fiction right off the
spot.
I've got two more for youthough.
Let's, let's run through these.
So fact or fiction while oncemore impactful, uh, in the past,

(45:09):
presenting in webinars reportedto be low impact, a low impact
marketing technique today,webinars, do we think that they,
uh, tend to be impactful todayor, um, has their day since
passed and they're no longer.
uh, impactful.

Joe Pope (45:27):
Hmm.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (45:29):
I don't think their day has passed.

Joe Pope (45:30):
Yeah.
I don't know if I'd say it'spast like that.
It's that it's low impact.
So are you saying that more highgrowth organizations, if we
unpack the angle of thequestion, more high growth
organizations are saying thatwebinars are low impact for
them.

Austin McNair (45:46):
The result of this answer is going to be
either that it was at the bottomof the list or it was like
towards the top of the list.
So it's like, it's not in themiddle.
It's, it's either one or theother.
It's like, it's very clearly onone side.

Joe Pope (45:59):
Hmm.
Yeah.
I don't know if it's low impact.
I have a hard time believingthat it's low impact.
And if it is, that's a bit of aneye opener because it's such a
significant effort.
That organizations take on inorder to create content, uh, and
certainly if you're doing it,right, you're not just talking

(46:22):
in a webinar.
I mean, you're using it as apart of a larger nurture
sequence.
You're chopping up topics andpoints, putting them into social
media, pose, inviting copresenters.
So, yeah, I'd be surprised if itwas a low, low.
And so I'm agreeing with you,like you said, I don't think

(46:43):
it's low.

Austin McNair (46:43):
All right.
Final answer.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (46:45):
Final answer.

Austin McNair (46:46):
You're correct, Joe.
You're correct.
That's actually a falsestatement.
presenting and webinars is stillreported to be in the top 10
marketing techniques in terms ofimpact for all professional
services firms.
I actually think it was, uh, Idid a training on, on, on
webinars earlier todaycoincidentally.
Um, and I think number six,it's, it's number six on the

(47:08):
list in terms of, um, uh, impactoverall.
I, you know, I think similar tosome of those other lower funnel
marketing techniques that we askabout.
Webinars are a little bit of aneasier marketing technique to
kind of trace attribution,right?
You run a webinar, you, you, youprovide a call to action, people
can accept that call to action.

(47:29):
And then you have like a cleardirect path from like, we did
this thing.
And, um, this person, thispotential prospect or business
opportunity responded to it.
Um, and, and we can attribute itthere.
So generally speaking, yeah.
Um, you know, but.
Kind of going beyond just theeasy attribution.
I think it goes back to thething too with speaking

(47:49):
engagements where getting yourexperts in front of an audience
of people who have, you know,taken, you know, they've blocked
off their calendar.
They're in the space to listento your experts talk about key
issues.
I think it's really aninvaluable, um, Um, thing to add
into your marketing mix to giveyour experts that platform in

(48:11):
kind of a virtual environment.
So, you know, the jitters ofpublic speaking are a little bit
less, you know, um, acute.
It's a little bit easier to talkin a webinar than it is like on
a big stage.
Um, and, you know, experts canget that time in front of their
audience to share and todemonstrate their expertise.
So, you know, Yeah, I agree withyou guys.
Uh, good, good selection there.

(48:31):
Webinars are, are still to thisday perceived to be very
impactful for professionalservices marketing.

Joe Pope (48:37):
I'm just really happy that we're not selling trainings
on a tactic that, uh, is notimpactful because that would not
be a good business model for us.
So glad to hear that when you,you delivered that training
today, it's still, it's still animportant fact.

Austin McNair (48:52):
Absolutely.
Alright, this is the last one.
I think the scoreboard is prettyclose.
That, that, that brought youguys back a little bit.
I think I might have sealed thedeal at four points, but you
guys are, you guys are gettingclose here.
And I think it'll

Joe Pope (49:04):
need to find another half point somewhere.

Austin McNair (49:06):
We can actually make this last one, if you want,
winner take all.
Let's see, let's see what youthink about this one.
So,

Joe Pope (49:11):
final jeopardy.
We

Austin McNair (49:12):
Final Jeopardy,

Joe Pope (49:13):
do we want

Austin McNair (49:14):
all the points.
Yeah.
Cause the points, they matter alot right now.

Joe Pope (49:18):
Yeah.

Austin McNair (49:20):
So, MB, Joe, fact or fiction, the most common type
of research that high growthfirms conduct is competitive
research.
So they are doing research.
on their competitors.
That's the most common type ofresearch that they are doing.

(49:41):
Some alternatives to that wouldbe client research, SEO,
marketplace research.
There's a few others on thatlist, but I'm saying that
competitives, the competitors,that's what the high growth
firms are focused on.
What do you guys think?
Fact or fiction?

Joe Pope (49:58):
Oof.
MB, what do you think?
Where's your mind go right offthe bat?
Because clearly when I've triedto steer us, it doesn't always
go in the right direction.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (50:07):
Uh, I mean, I was thinking, like,
brand over, brand visibilityover competitor.

Joe Pope (50:15):
Like what did our clients think of us or what does
the marketplace think of usversus what is somebody else
look like?
Oh, I love that.
Austin's nodding that that's agood sign.
He's giving us the cue.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer (50:26):
Maybe gave it away.

Joe Pope (50:27):
I think he might've given it away there.
This is why, this is why thisneeds to be a video podcast as
opposed to us just talkingbecause the viewer right now
would have missed Austin noddingalong to your very well thought
out, uh, point there and be, I'mgoing fiction.
It is not the top way thatorganizations are researching or

(50:48):
high growth organizations areresearching.

Austin McNair (50:50):
All right, if that's the final answer then
yeah, you are correct that is infact fiction the

Joe Pope (50:59):
been watching you the whole time.
I could have probably gottenmore of these right

Austin McNair (51:02):
You definitely would have

Joe Pope (51:04):
of staring off into the distance.

Austin McNair (51:05):
couple of questions ago I was like giving
you like the answer.
And you did, you weren'tlooking, uh, um, no, yeah.
The most common type of researchfor high growth firms is
actually, um, when they'refocusing on their clients, it's
the client research.
Um, I think that is like amentality shift, right?
Like the, the mentality like MPwas saying, it's like thinking

(51:27):
about your own buyers, thinkingabout your own clients,
understanding them.
Um, there is a correlation therebetween the high growth firms
and, and the ones that are, youknow, prioritizing that.
So yeah, you, you got it.
I mean, anything else to saythere kind of on that, that the
distinction there about where, Imean, I guess one thing I would
say is like, it's not thecompetitive research is not
important.
Like that was still high up onthe list.

(51:48):
And as you know, when we doresearch projects, we also
factor in the competitiveanalysis as part of kind of the
overall research project.
But I think the non negotiablein the process is, Understanding
your own buyers, understandingyour own clients, and, and not
taking that for granted, or nottaking their perspectives for
granted, and, and, and learningas much as you can from them.

(52:09):
Uh, anything else to, to addthere?

Joe Pope (52:11):
mean, the competitive space shifts so often that while
I think competitive research hasa good place, you know, whereas
asking questions of our clientsand where, where do we stay in
the marketplace and in theirperspective or the types of
buyers we care about is going tocarry more, just logically is
going to carry more value.
Uh, and, and as we know,organizations that grow fast in

(52:32):
their peers, they typically dothings that are going to carry
more value, hence the reasonthey make more money and have
higher profitability.
So, yeah, I, I, I think weprobably talked ourselves into
it, uh, with the assistance ofyour nonverbal cues.
Uh, please continue next time weplay a game like this to not
make us look the way we looktoday.
Uh,

Austin McNair (52:52):
No, I, I mean, I think we put all the points on
that last question, so you guys,you guys won.
I, I got to have my fun, I gotto be a little tricky.
Um, thanks for participatingwith me, you guys.
I mean, but this is the, youknow, this is kind of the way
that we want to approach thispodcast.
Let's have a little bit of fun.
Let's gamify, you know, some ofthe data, some of the findings.
And I'm excited that in upcomingepisodes, we're going to get to

(53:14):
do that.
We're going to get someperspectives from some other
leading voices.
We may also do some otherpodcasts with just the three of
us again, or some other, uh,hinge experts that, you know,
are, you know, totally, youknow, in terms of their space,
their industry.
Um, or their specialization,their, you know, masters of
their craft.
So, uh, I'm excited to, to, to,to run more episodes with you

(53:35):
guys.
I want to thank you for, youknow, participating in today's
episode.
And to all those listening,thanks for listening.
This has been another episode ofspiraling up and we'll see you
on the next one.
Thank you.