April 20, 2025 • 32 mins
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The term "account-based marketing" gets thrown around so casually these days that its meaning has become diluted. Is ABM just targeted advertising to a list of accounts, or is it something deeper? According to Bolton Graham, Head of Marketing at JRNI, we've moved past the golden age of ABM into what he calls a "dark age" where everything is labeled ABM without the personalization that made it special.
Bolton brings a wealth of perspective from his time building ABM programs from scratch, scaling them across organizations, and now applying these principles at Journey. What makes his insights particularly valuable is his candid assessment of what works and what doesn't when taking the one-to-one approach with high-value accounts.
He argues that the best ABM practitioners occupy a unique space between sales and marketing—they need the analytical mind of a marketer with the relationship-building hunger of a salesperson. In fact, Bolton makes the provocative suggestion that perhaps ABM roles should include commission structures similar to sales positions.
Beyond the philosophical discussion, Bolton shares tactical advice on launching successful ABM initiatives, from managing the relationship with sales teams to defending your program from the inevitable pressure to scale beyond what's effective. He highlights the potential of "pattern interrupts" like direct mail, billboards, and in-person events as increasingly valuable tools as digital channels become saturated with AI-generated content.
As Bolton puts it, "The personal connection angle is going to be one of the last things we're left with."
Whether you're just starting your ABM journey or looking to refocus your existing program, this conversation offers fresh perspectives on an approach that, when done right, still delivers exceptional results for B2B marketers targeting high-value accounts. Connect with Bolton on LinkedIn to continue the conversation about the future of marketing in an increasingly noisy digital landscape.
Connect with Bolton on LinkedIn or check out his company, JRNI
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kevin Kerner (00:00):
Hey guys, this is Kevin Kerner with Tech Marketing
Rewired.
I had a lot of fun in this nextepisode, where I sat down with
Bolton Graham, who is the headof marketing for Journey.
Bolton and I have known eachother for a long time and have
worked on literally dozens ofABM campaigns over the years
together, and we got really deepinto what it takes to really
succeed in ABM today, from whygreat ABM marketers need to
(00:21):
think more like sales reps towhy the golden age of ABM might
actually be behind us.
This one is packed with honest,tactical and some fun insight
from a great tech marketingleader.
Let's get into it.
This is Tech Marketing Rewired.
Bolton Graham (00:42):
Hello Bolton, how are you doing?
I am doing great.
I'm very excited to be here.
Kevin, Thank you for having me.
Kevin Kerner (00:46):
This one will be an easy one for me, because we
know each other so well and haveworked together, so much it's
like a reunion.
Yeah, this is the reunion call.
Why don't you go ahead and justintroduce yourself to the
viewers here?
Bolton Graham (00:56):
Yeah, my name is Bolton Graham.
I'm head of marketing atJourney, so we do really
exciting things around customerinteraction, appointment
scheduling, queue management andexperiential events in one
platform.
So it's been an awesome journey, pardon the pun, to be kind of
a one-person show, setting thefoundations of a growth
marketing engine and expandingjust from my ABM roots into a
(01:21):
more just mini hat-wearingwearing marker, which has been a
lot of fun.
Kevin Kerner (01:26):
I know you from your Blue Yonder days too, where
you guys were doing you knowABM at scale like crazy scale,
and so the one reason I wantedto have you on was to talk about
.
You've got a lot of historicalknowledge of ABM, all the way
from just getting it built allthe way to where you are now.
So you know, starting small,getting really big and then
going back to.
You know things you can control.
Bolton Graham (01:51):
I'm just wondering to start off, like
what do you think the state ofABM is in right now?
It's a great question and Ithink you know, going back, like
you said, I was at Bleander andreally helped stand up the
account based marketing teamthere from it was it was three
people and it was two and it wasone for just by itself for a
little bit.
Then we grew back out to five,six, seven headcount.
Before then I was at ukg, whichwas kronos at the time, and
(02:12):
that was just when the rumblingsof account-based marketing were
were coming to fruition.
So my last year there so it washey, we really got to get a
handle on this account-basedmarketing thing.
How do we start start doingthis?
That was really pre like SixthSense dominance.
That it wasn't even in thevernacular Blue Yonder was
really when Sixth Sense cameinto power and the dark funnel
(02:33):
was revealed and they reallyenergized people around that.
Now I really think the goldenage, looking back, the golden
age of account-based marketingwas that kind of 2020-esque.
Sixth Sense was really youngand it was truly focused around
micro-accounts and I think we'rekind of in this dark age now
(02:55):
and people may totally disagree,but we're actually in this dark
age now of account-basedmarketing, where everything is
ABM, everything is account-basedmarketing.
Oh so we have this greatsegmented list and we know that
there's some intent behind it.
It is account-based marketing.
Oh so you, totally.
We have this great segmentedlist and we know that there's
some intent behind it.
It's account-based marketing.
We're launching this LinkedInprogram to 2,000 accounts, but
we know that they've shown somekind of signs of life and
(03:16):
they're named accounts for oursales reps.
It's account-based marketing.
We're doing it, we're doing it,but it we're doing it.
Um, but I think that the goldenage was 2020, when it was hey,
we have to get into this onewhale, we have to get into these
five, these 10 accounts.
Here you go, you have, you haveyour budget.
It's the wild west.
No one knows what tools workyet, right?
So I I think we're in atransition period where everyone
(03:40):
in marketing is becomingaccount-based marketing, but I
would argue that's actuallyaccount-based targeting.
Yeah, so I'll pause there.
Kevin Kerner (03:49):
Well, I wonder if it's because LinkedIn makes it
so easy to have accounttargeting.
Now you can load the accounttarget, you can load the context
, but it's really just targetedmarketing.
At this point, if you load in2,000 accounts, I think you're
exactly right.
It's not the same thing.
Bolton Graham (04:07):
It's.
Modern marketing is what it is,and I think Sixth Sense has
done a great job taking chargeof the verbiage and the words
and the dark funnel andeverything and kind of brought
everyone to that account-basedtargeting foundation.
But I do think that there'sstill so much potential for true
account-based marketing, if youcan even call it that anymore.
I've thought of some of thenames for it.
Kevin Kerner (04:29):
Yeah, yeah, there's got to be.
We should coin another term.
Right, we can just ask Jeff GPTto coin it for us after the end
of this call.
Bolton Graham (04:37):
Yeah, can we do it for us?
Kevin Kerner (04:39):
Yeah.
So you've seen firsthand thebeginning of ABM, starting ABM,
and then you've seen it scale.
You've probably seen it takeoff at a company.
Well, you did see it take offat Blew Under, and now I'm sure
you're doing it.
If you're doing it at a journey.
I think it would be interestingfor you to talk a little bit
about what happens when youfirst launch and then what
(05:00):
happens when it starts to scaleAbsolutely and what happens when
it starts to scale?
Bolton Graham (05:05):
Absolutely yeah.
So when you first launch it, itusually begins or at least what
I've lived is it begins in theproper account-based marketing
format of okay, here are fivewhale accounts that will be
absolute needle movers.
How do we get into them?
What tactics are we going touse?
The world is your oyster andthat's really how it started at
Blue Yonder.
You guys are a kind of specialgreen beret force within
(05:28):
marketing.
You're not really lead gen,you're not field marketing, you
guys are account-based marketing.
This is the account-basedmarketing team.
So you try new things, youexperiment and there's no
guardrails, right?
So there's no branding sayinghey, don't modify our brand to
match theirs, we got to staywithin our own branding.
(05:48):
It's really kind of the WildWest.
So you can spend a lot of timegetting to know your accounts,
getting to know the contactswithin your accounts and really
building a relationship withsales to say, hey, I'm not your
BDR, but I'm your marketingdevelopment rep.
I'm going to go out and drivebusiness for your key accounts,
and that's going to be day inand day out.
(06:08):
And when we win, we're going tocelebrate together and we'll
celebrate every small engagementvictory, every yes to a webinar
, every hand raise.
So it starts out small andpersonal.
What happens is eventually youwill see success.
And then that's when you getasked to scale right.
So you say, hey, wow, thishelped land this massive company
(06:29):
X.
We got to do this for all ofour accounts.
Why would we not do this forall accounts?
And that's when you start toblur the lines of well, if I'm
juggling, if I'm going fromjuggling five to 10 accounts to
100 accounts, and then 500accounts and 1000, the actual
time that I have to execute on aone-to-one level is almost zero
.
You morph as you try to scaleaccount-based marketing.
(06:52):
You morph into account-basedtargeting and targeted marketing
, which just becomes anotherlead gen department in your
company.
So it's really that spot of of.
How can you maintain the, thepersonalization required and the
attention to detail requiredfor account-based marketing,
while not just saying, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna slap
(07:14):
a logo on a page and call that apersonalized?
Kevin Kerner (07:17):
page personalization at scale right.
So how do you so?
I I've seen it happen firsthandwith you guys uh, with your,
your, our past work where itstarts to catch fire and you
want more and more.
I think you did a really goodjob of trying to contain it into
the one-to-one to maybeone-to-few space a few, being
like some little subgroup ofaccounts.
(07:37):
How did you find a way to keepit focused versus having it
explode into these massivecampaigns?
Bolton Graham (07:49):
Right, you really you have to keep it within an
agreement.
You have to lay foundationearly to say no, this is not an
account-based marketing account,this is not an ABM account, and
you have to be able toarticulate that and you have to
be able to defend that, becauseeveryone, once you hit success,
is going to want a slice of thepie.
So you're going to have salesleaders coming to you saying we
(08:12):
need to do this to our top 500accounts.
So if you have that the kind ofagreement in place before that,
you can then defend your spaceand say, well, no, actually
we're just going to do these 100and here's why.
So, whether that's, you know,it's a certain ARR, that they
have to be above, no, we're onlyrunning this to 1 billion and
(08:32):
above accounts, or they have tohave.
If you have an intent platformperhaps you have intent scoring
they must be above a certainintent score before we go full
into it.
So, yes, we'll nurture themwith our field marketing teams,
our lead gen teams.
As soon as that score hitssomething, yes, then we'll make
the one-to-one.
You have to be in a certainplace in the funnel, right?
(08:54):
So if a deal is already kind ofset to close but sales are
saying no, we need to guaranteethe close.
We really need an ABM programfor this.
That's way too late to engage.
You don't have enough runway toreally generate any difference.
In that you really need anagreement.
And as you start to findsuccess you need to think about.
Every company is different interms of what is your ACV or
(09:17):
your contract value, what is thesales cycle length.
All of that has to be kind ofdecided by you and the team.
But your parameters should betight enough where you can say,
now that we apply this to ourtotal addressable market,
there's about 100 accounts,maybe 200.
And that all depends on, again,the headcount of your team.
So if you're a one person ABMteam, I really am old school and
(09:41):
say no more than 50.
And that's a lot to me.
With every headcount you add.
You do add the capability to domore.
Yeah.
Kevin Kerner (09:49):
So it's a better.
It's a better scenario for youto have a lot of one-to-ones
than have a few targetedmarketing campaigns.
As an ABM marketer right, youdefinitely could have done
targeted marketing but, you'rereally focused on the, on the
one-to-one or maybeone-to-a-couple.
Do you think that's a skill?
I would imagine that.
(10:10):
I mean, I know you're a broadermarketer than this, but I know
you like the ABM side of things.
Do you think the skill set ofan account-based marketer is
different than a just generaltargeted marketer?
Bolton Graham (10:26):
Great question.
I do.
Yeah, I think, and I always sayaccount based marketing is
somewhere in between sales andmarketing.
It's a really interesting.
It's the sales enablement sideof the house where your lead
generation team, your field team, can be awesome at planning
events, throwing events, can begreat at balancing the perfect
(10:46):
marketing mix of top of funnel,mid funnel programs.
That's very programmatic.
Abm at its fundamental is lessprogrammatic and more feel, and
you really need to be involvedin every single lead for your
accounts that you're supporting.
You need to be just joined atthe hip with sales to understand
(11:07):
okay, this is working, this isnot working.
Why don't we buy a billboardoutside of their headquarters
and say, hey, company X, it'stime to talk.
Right, this is the kind ofagility that you need.
You kind of need the hunger ofa salesperson to stay interested
in your five to 10 to 50accounts at any given time.
So I really find you know,thinking of like college
(11:28):
students, if you're oscillatingbetween, oh, should I do
marketing, should I do sales?
There's a fusion in betweenaccount-based marketing or
whatever we change the name to.
It's kind of a bit of both, andwe can come back to that point,
because one of my hot takes isI think true account-based
marketing headcount should besomewhat commission-based.
Kevin Kerner (11:50):
I think you're exactly right.
I never really thought of itthat way.
It's kind of like a salesposition.
It's kind of like, you know,bdr support sales.
A really good account basedpeople are probably closer to
sales than they are thecommunications department or the
comms thing they're like.
They're like sale.
They're like salespeople thatare scientists, like marketing
(12:11):
scientists.
I love it.
They're salespeople without theschmooze.
You know.
Bolton Graham (12:15):
They're more of the scientist side of things
Exactly Instead of schmooze, wehave puns, that's right.
You really get a puns foraccount-based marketing.
Kevin Kerner (12:22):
Yeah they're very punny salespeople.
That is interesting, though,like the sales side of things
and commission, I never reallythought of that.
But yeah, the sales side ofthings and commission, I never
really thought of that.
But yeah, talk like why.
I think I can see why, but haveyou ever seen that happen
anywhere, is it?
I haven't.
Bolton Graham (12:39):
So maybe that's a a new LinkedIn article.
I'm about to go right.
When we're done with this.
Kevin Kerner (12:43):
Should they report ?
Should ABM?
I don't know.
Should ABM report into thesales organization somehow?
Or are they still a marketingfunction in your opinion?
Bolton Graham (12:50):
I think it's still a marketing function.
I don't know that I'd go thatfar, but at the same time I need
your cause, like, well, why not?
I do think it is this kind ofdepartment outside of marketing
and outside of sales it's it'skind of floats.
And you know, joining BlueYonder we were kind of this new
department even and yeah, werolled up to marketing for sure,
but we had this really niceautonomy to say we have some
(13:14):
allowance to break some ruleshere, to break some branding
rules, to do what we can.
Of course, eventually that willbe cracked down on as you scale
, but I have not seen acommission-based thing, I
haven't seen it even floated.
But thinking about it, if you'redoing true account-based
marketing, let's call it keyaccount marketing or enterprise
(13:37):
pursuit marketing.
I think is another one thatI've kind of ideated, where you
okay, you Bolton, you Kevin, youhave these five to 10 accounts
that you're going to work forthe year and, yeah, there is
maybe some ebb and flow.
We learned that a contract hasbeen lost so we need to replace
that account.
Fine, but let's say, for thesake of your 5% accounts, you
could lower the base salary alittle bit.
(13:58):
So, say, a marketing manager ismaking $90K, lower it to $80K,
but you have a 2% commission onwhatever closed one deals occur.
So I'm not talking 10%commission, 15% we're not SaaS
software salespeople but if youincentivize, even call it 1%.
If you close a 1.2 million ACBdeal because of all of your
(14:19):
awesome marketing efforts andyou get 1% to 2% of that, that's
okay, it's okay.
And then you're getting ifthere's no cap, you're getting
way more salary than you wouldget if you were just a standard
marketer.
I think that it's importantbecause you're so focused on
this small account group that itreally incentivizes and kind of
(14:39):
de-risks you being like, ohwell, I'm just going to throw
some of these leads and see whathappens, like no, you're going
to be in it, you're going to bein Sales Navigator.
You're going to be followingevery single contact, every
single lead in sales navigator.
You're going to be in, likefollowing every single contact,
every single lead, and I wouldsay, make them closer to a BDR
or an SDR role and yeah, jesusgot me thinking.
Kevin Kerner (14:58):
I mean, I think that's.
I never really thought of itthis way, but you just got me
thinking that maybe a good placefor uh to find a really good um
account based marketer is is asa BDR like a person that was a
BDR and make them anaccount-based person Because
they get the relationship withsales, they're heavy into
messaging and they talk tocustomers all day.
(15:20):
So they're probably the closestI talked to.
I can't remember who it was,maybe it was Katie Penner at
Sendoso, who was a former SDRand I started my career as a BDR
.
You don't know the customerthat well until you do, like you
know 100 dialings a day andthen you're definitely going to
know.
So it'd be a really fertileground for it's kind of like
(15:42):
that and that's the mind of anaccount-based marketer.
You just don't find thoseninjas as much anymore.
Bolton Graham (15:49):
I agree the industry's changed a bit to
where it's more, and I thinkit's a skill set thing too, but
it's also an interest thingwhere a lot of folks their
passion lies in the dashboardsand driving the numbers and
driving brand and creating brandIn account-based marketing.
It's much closer to sales.
You have to be able to pourover your lead patch and say, oh
(16:12):
, he was at that webinar twomonths ago and I sent him the
cool custom shoes or whatever.
There's Sendoza, shout out toSendoza and he received that
really well, okay, and now he'sfilled out a demo.
I need to communicate this tomy salespeople, because the
sales folks are doing their ownjob.
(16:32):
They're doing contracting workor contracts work and everything
.
They don't have the time to beable to say, oh, this awesome
ABM campaign has produced thismany leads for me and this has
been the messaging that they'vebeen going after this one
contact for six months with.
And then, all of a sudden, youhave dissonance, because this
lead has been nurtured from anABM standpoint over some
(16:54):
messaging of oh, let's go withappointment scheduling.
Every time that you forcesomeone to fill out a form and
wait for a call, you're losingbusiness, right?
So we've been nurturing them onthat messaging.
And then they get on the calland you say, yep, our queue
management's the best, and itkind of goes wait what we're
having.
We've been talking back andforth for months about
appointment scheduling and soyou get that, that kind of
(17:14):
dissonance, and all of a suddenyou're, you're in danger.
So if you can bring the abmpeople into the, you bring them
into the calls.
Right, they don't have to sayanything.
But they could say, oh well,remember the white socks game
two months ago?
They go, yeah, that's right,that's right, that fun time.
Now you've you've humanized thecall and now sales hasn't even
used your time.
Kevin Kerner (17:33):
Yeah, this is great.
I mean that's a really goodnugget, but I don't think it's.
It's nuanced, but I don't thinkit's talked about enough.
Just the skill set, the salesskill set of the AV marketer.
Okay, I want to switch laneshere a little and talk about the
one-to-one side of things.
You've done a ton ofone-to-ones.
I don't know how many we didtogether, but it was a lot I
(17:55):
wanted.
I want you to talk about yoursystem like one of the most
important parts of that process,from beginning to end.
Let's say, pick out a few ofthe, the main tactics you can
give people some advice onthrough that stream of that,
through that work stream yeah,again, it Again.
Bolton Graham (18:12):
It's going to seem obvious, but the most
important part of the process isthe beginning and it's the
actual building youraccount-based marketing list.
So that goes back to what I wastalking about, with the
standard agreement of yes, thisis an account-based marketing
account or no, it is not, andsticking to that and really
defining why is this anaccount-based marketing target.
So that's first and foremost.
(18:33):
And then it really is.
Account-based marketing is itsown microcosm of a marketing
department where you're going tobe using the entire mix of
tactics.
There's not one tactic that isan ABM tactic.
You're going to be using socialpaid ads focused just at that
account.
You're going to be usingcustomized landing pages, direct
mail, surveys, buyingbillboards in front of their HQ,
(18:55):
helping to fund charity eventsthat are important to them.
There is a lot of stuff thatyou can do, but what matters
most is giving it the time forthe personalization, because you
want to communicate.
Clearly.
I am entirely invested in oursolution and how it's going to
help you, and I'm going to spendall my time to over-communicate
(19:17):
and over-personalize.
I know you play the cross atUML.
I know you want to almost creepthem out.
Right, you don't want to go sofar, but the thing that
account-based marketing is foris standing out Like in a world
of noise.
Abm is able to take the time tocut through, and when a custom
golf head cover comes in withtheir college or alma mater with
(19:42):
a note that says hey, I knowthat you graduated from XYZ,
would love a chance to talk.
I really think our solutionwould help.
One, two, three.
Kevin Kerner (19:51):
What about the sales relationship?
How do you manage thateffectively?
Bolton Graham (19:54):
Regular meetings and over communication.
So I really think you, for theaccounts where there's obviously
most of them would be namedaccounts, but you have to have a
huddle with all of your salespeople individually at least
once a week, maybe even multipletimes a week.
You need to open the channelsof communication.
If you're using Slack, ifyou're using Teams every day,
(20:16):
hey, just want to let you knowthat so-and-so opened this email
.
We're going to nurture them,we're working on it.
Let me know if you see anythingfrom your end.
And then every Friday orwherever it is, you have a call.
You say, okay, this is how theintent scores moved.
If you don't have an intentplatform, you can build your own
signals saying, okay, this iswho opened and clicked emails,
this is cookie people on oursite.
You can kind of make your ownsignals, right If you don't have
(20:38):
the budget for a Rolls Roycesix cents kind of thing.
So you really need it goes backto the BDR and SDR thing.
You're almost like a marketingdevelopment rep where you need
to be a tight at the hip.
Kevin Kerner (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Now what about the?
What about outside of theoutside of the sales
relationship?
Now you've got marketing and,let's say, executive leadership
team.
How do you sell the value ofthis investment, cause you're
making a pretty big investmentto go one-to-one ABM Like how do
you, what do you do, to sellthe value to that?
How do you message them at thebeginning stages, when it's you
(21:10):
know you don't have the, thecred yet, and how do you message
them over time such that theyhave confidence that they're
spending in the right way?
Bolton Graham (21:18):
Yeah, it's a fantastic question and it's one
that I know people contend withall the time, because they they
want ABN departments.
But it's you want how, how much?
money per account.
That's crazy.
That's going to double ourheadcount or whatever it is.
So you just have to communicatewhat is the price if we don't
do it right.
So, yes, we can keep doing whatwe're doing and hope that some
(21:41):
of our kind of traditional leadgeneration metrics or tactics
make it through and we slowlygrow our process base.
Yes, but if and 5% of peopleare ready to buy at any given
time.
But what if, through ABM, wecan make that 5% ready to buy at
any time, 10% or 15%, becausewe're giving them a compelling
(22:02):
event delivered straight totheir door, delivered straight
in front of them, with this verycarefully crafted message
that's going to cut through allthat kind of standard marketing.
So it's not a replacement for amarketing department.
I would never say that.
It's in conjunction with it andit's, like I said, this kind of
hybrid sales enablement role.
(22:23):
So you have to say, trust me,let's give it a shot.
What if we close this $1.2million deal?
The salary is X, y, it's 80K,it's 90K, whatever it is.
Maybe you follow the commissionmodel.
So worst case, it's 200K.
Right, it's absolutely killingit.
But if, after that first year,give it two years, if you've
(22:45):
closed that mammoth account thatnow has all the upsell and
cross-sell opportunity for allyour other solutions.
That program has paid foritself for the next seven years.
So it is a bit of a.
It's a bit of a leap out of theout of the gate.
But if you can prove the, provethe breadcrumbs as you build it
, so prove that you're drivingincreased engagement in the
(23:06):
account.
Show that you're getting moreengaged contacts that can then
be remarketed to and nurtured.
Show that you're increasingevent attendance at these
accounts by people at thoseaccounts and then kind of build
your believability that wayuntil finally you get that close
one you can say, see, and thenyou're doomed because everyone
is going to want one.
Kevin Kerner (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, right, and then you can measure, you
know, customer acquisition costand it's going to pay off.
I think it's interesting yousay engagement, because we're
having conversations right nowwith a few marketing leaders
that are having a really hardtime selling just the value of
marketing in general.
But that journey you have totake an executive on, like a CEO
(23:47):
, or the executive leadershipteam, and that the idea of
engagement it's, you know, it'ssomething that they sort of get
in the ELT.
They're like, okay, yeah, Iguess yeah, but until they
actually see the closed deal andthe cost relative to that
closed deal and they're like, oh, okay, that makes sense.
It's a really hard sell formarketing leaders.
(24:09):
So you almost have to have thepatience to stick it through and
it's scary.
It's probably more scary nowfor a lot of our customers
because they're they're under somuch pressure for immediate
performance and that's probablywhat drives the the not you're
not the one-to-one route, butthe you know, targeted marketing
route, cause it's like, well,I'm under all this pressure,
(24:29):
it's cheaper to do this one, soI gotta get this one done,
because I can't get theone-to-one thing done no, that's
exactly it and I think um, abmor true abm whatever we're
calling it key accountingmarketing.
Bolton Graham (24:39):
It's not going to be for everyone.
So if, if your sales cycles isis really fast, um, and your
your contract values averagecontact values are kind of lower
than what it would be for aheadcount to staff, this, a
one--to-one method, is probablynot the best strategy and what
you can do is a hybrid.
So you do one-to-few, you doone-to-many with all of your
(25:01):
clever modern segmentations andintent signals and that's
totally fine, and you can dipyour toe and say, okay, do the
one-to-fews, do the one-to-manys, and then, with any bandwidth
left, let's just test pilotcompany X, let's see if we can
spend some extra budget and seeany kind of increased engagement
or whatever it is.
That's a really good way tokind of dip your toe in.
(25:24):
But the true, like enterprisesize, if you have K plus ACVs
and deals that are closing, ifyour sales cycle is six months
or longer, you need thisengagement to keep people
involved and to keep peopleinterested in buying and worried
about the pain point thatyou're trying to solve.
So there's a whole discussionto be had about folks that don't
believe in marketing.
(25:45):
We can't even get into that now, but of course I'm in the camp.
Kevin Kerner (25:48):
I'll write that book someday, I'll write the
book someday, or it's like.
This is the reasons why there'sthe what's?
The 95 five rule, where 95% ofyour customers aren't in market
Currently, only 5% of them are.
And so if you're for your bigcustomers, it's like man, you
just got to keep, you got to geton the day one list when
they're looking, and you're notgoing to get on that list if
(26:10):
they don't know who you are.
And so ABM with big accounts isa great way to make sure they
at least know who you are andwhat your brand stands for.
And I do totally agree thatit's a sales approach.
We're going to think ofwhatever that term is for what
this is, or maybe it shouldn'tbe called.
Maybe the person that does itshould have a sales sort of name
(26:31):
.
We need to think of that.
Bolton.
We'll get a blog post out thereat some point together.
Bolton Graham (26:35):
Yeah, maybe it's a marketing account executive.
Kevin Kerner (26:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there it is, yeahSomething.
Bolton Graham (26:40):
M-A-E.
Kevin Kerner (26:46):
Yeah, m-a-e, I like it.
One last question, and then I'mgoing to have you play a little
game here.
Since you've done so many ofthese, what's one underrated
tool, tactic, tactic or workflowyou think people should be
using now in abm?
Let me sit with that for asecond I need my knee jerk is
direct mail.
Bolton Graham (26:59):
I think that that the secret's kind of out of the
bag there.
You know, there was a long timewhere people would say you're
still there.
On direct mail we budgeted forfor mailers it's not 1990, what
are you talking about?
But there's been such a hugeresurgence, especially with,
with intent, data, that you canget and say, all right, we know
this person's just in incrocheting, let's get them a
(27:20):
crochet with our logo orwherever it is that can be
really powerful, because landingon desks is is having a
physical presence is huge.
Um, so that's probably not anearth-shaking one, but that's
that's my knee jerk.
I think visual.
I keep coming back tobillboards because I really
think that there's a huge visualcomponent in physical space
that we're also missing.
(27:41):
And if you can get to peoplewhen they're inside of their
kind of daily routines, when notin front of their computer,
that's massive.
So whether it's posters or abillboard or buying visual space
on a bus, like these are thingsthat can have.
They're very cost efficientbecause not a lot of people are
(28:02):
doing them and it's hard toprove the ROI because it's not
digital and you can't pixel abillboard.
But when people, when youdisrupt people maybe that's a
bad word when you shock peopleinto saying like, oh, that's an
ad for so-and-so.
They were, they invited me tothat webinar and they sent me
that awesome head cover thatstarts to really build this kind
of ecosystem within their mindof this is a legitimate player
(28:24):
in the space at the very leasttotally.
Kevin Kerner (28:27):
It's a pattern.
When someone told me that theyuse the word pattern interrupt,
and I think that is becomingeven more needed now than ever,
especially with ai, becauseevent I mean eventually you
can't use email, you won't beable to use linkedin.
Really there's going to becalls coming to you that are
crazy.
I think the personal connectionangle is going to be one of the
last things we're left with.
(28:48):
And then I do believe thatmaybe an abm, especially that
the, the, the, the thing, thetactics are going to work are
going to be a personalconnection that you can make
with an individual.
So it's like you know it'sdirect mail, it's showing up in
a space they don't know, it'sevents specific events.
The event industry might see ahuge resurgence because of all
(29:08):
the other noise in the nonface-to-face world.
I just say I think I'm hearingthat from where people are like
the only thing that might beleft will be the conversations
that we have, because everythingelse will be just so noisy
going on with all the crazystuff.
Okay, I wanted to this will bethe third time I've tried this
and but the other two times itworked.
No, the other two times itcompletely exploded.
(29:29):
No, I'm kidding.
So what I do is I'm going tocall this ai roulette and I'm
going to put a question intoperplexity, and it's basically I
put all of our.
I said I'm having aconversation with bolton, uh,
here's what we're going to talkabout, um, and here's his
background.
And then I put all of your, allof your, uh a link to your
(29:49):
linkedin profile with all yourposts, so so it could read your
posts.
Bolton Graham (29:53):
Nice, so I'm going to hit.
Kevin Kerner (29:55):
I'm going to hit send here and we're going to see
what it says.
Okay, based on Bolton's recentLinkedIn activity and profile,
here is here's a provocative andunexpected question you could
ask him at the end of the show.
Bolton, you recently announcedthat your company journey JRNI
is pronounced Journey.
If you had to rebrand yourselfas an ABM practitioner with an
(30:19):
unconventional spelling, whatwould it be and why?
Bolton Graham (30:22):
So I have to rebrand myself.
Kevin Kerner (30:24):
Yeah, you got to rebrand yourself as an ABM
practitioner with anunconventional spelling Kind of
like what's the our music artistmy kids listen to?
Jake spelled G-V-K-E, I think,or something like that.
Bolton Graham (30:39):
Yeah, you get the Charlie X, X-C-X.
Whatever, I'm not hitting theone.
Oh geez, that's a good one.
So my coworkers at Journey havetaken to calling me Boltron
because I'm a marketing machine.
So I think I would have to goBoltron and Boltron because I'm
a marketing machine.
So I think I would have to goBoltron and then switch the O
with a zero, because that kindof evokes the digital side and
(31:02):
the kind of tech support thatyou need to be successful in
account-based marketing.
Kevin Kerner (31:07):
Oh, that's good.
I think you should probably putthat in your LinkedIn profile.
Then I might have to.
It would be very edgy to havethe zero in the in the then no
one could find you Like where'sBolton?
True, probably break thealgorithm.
Well, this has been awesome,man.
I really I've always enjoyedcatching up with you, but this
is really good.
I think I think some greatstuff here for people.
(31:30):
I think I here for people.
I think I think it's, I think II'm.
Eyes are open now for me aboutthe sales angle here on all this
stuff so amazing.
I know you'd bring some greatinsight.
I would love to have you backon again in the future to talk
about how this is all workingout with all the AI stuff that's
going on.
It's going to be crazy, but Ireally appreciate it.
I want people to be able to getahold of you.
What's the best way for them toreach you?
Bolton Graham (31:51):
I'd say connect on LinkedIn.
I'm always there justinnovating the journey brand and
just trying to make connections.
So yeah, check me out onLinkedIn, please.
Kevin Kerner (32:01):
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much, Bolton.
It's great to have you here andI look forward to catching up
with you soon.
Awesome Thanks, Kevin.
Hey guys, this is Kevin Kerner with Tech Marketing
Rewired.
I had a lot of fun in this nextepisode, where I sat down with
Bolton Graham, who is the headof marketing for Journey.
Bolton and I have known eachother for a long time and have
worked on literally dozens ofABM campaigns over the years
together, and we got really deepinto what it takes to really
succeed in ABM today, from whygreat ABM marketers need to
(00:21):
think more like sales reps towhy the golden age of ABM might
actually be behind us.
This one is packed with honest,tactical and some fun insight
from a great tech marketingleader.
Let's get into it.
This is Tech Marketing Rewired.
Bolton Graham (00:42):
Hello Bolton, how are you doing?
I am doing great.
I'm very excited to be here.
Kevin, Thank you for having me.
Kevin Kerner (00:46):
This one will be an easy one for me, because we
know each other so well and haveworked together, so much it's
like a reunion.
Yeah, this is the reunion call.
Why don't you go ahead and justintroduce yourself to the
viewers here?
Bolton Graham (00:56):
Yeah, my name is Bolton Graham.
I'm head of marketing atJourney, so we do really
exciting things around customerinteraction, appointment
scheduling, queue management andexperiential events in one
platform.
So it's been an awesome journey, pardon the pun, to be kind of
a one-person show, setting thefoundations of a growth
marketing engine and expandingjust from my ABM roots into a
(01:21):
more just mini hat-wearingwearing marker, which has been a
lot of fun.
Kevin Kerner (01:26):
I know you from your Blue Yonder days too, where
you guys were doing you knowABM at scale like crazy scale,
and so the one reason I wantedto have you on was to talk about
.
You've got a lot of historicalknowledge of ABM, all the way
from just getting it built allthe way to where you are now.
So you know, starting small,getting really big and then
going back to.
You know things you can control.
Bolton Graham (01:51):
I'm just wondering to start off, like
what do you think the state ofABM is in right now?
It's a great question and Ithink you know, going back, like
you said, I was at Bleander andreally helped stand up the
account based marketing teamthere from it was it was three
people and it was two and it wasone for just by itself for a
little bit.
Then we grew back out to five,six, seven headcount.
Before then I was at ukg, whichwas kronos at the time, and
(02:12):
that was just when the rumblingsof account-based marketing were
were coming to fruition.
So my last year there so it washey, we really got to get a
handle on this account-basedmarketing thing.
How do we start start doingthis?
That was really pre like SixthSense dominance.
That it wasn't even in thevernacular Blue Yonder was
really when Sixth Sense cameinto power and the dark funnel
(02:33):
was revealed and they reallyenergized people around that.
Now I really think the goldenage, looking back, the golden
age of account-based marketingwas that kind of 2020-esque.
Sixth Sense was really youngand it was truly focused around
micro-accounts and I think we'rekind of in this dark age now
(02:55):
and people may totally disagree,but we're actually in this dark
age now of account-basedmarketing, where everything is
ABM, everything is account-basedmarketing.
Oh so we have this greatsegmented list and we know that
there's some intent behind it.
It is account-based marketing.
Oh so you, totally.
We have this great segmentedlist and we know that there's
some intent behind it.
It's account-based marketing.
We're launching this LinkedInprogram to 2,000 accounts, but
we know that they've shown somekind of signs of life and
(03:16):
they're named accounts for oursales reps.
It's account-based marketing.
We're doing it, we're doing it,but it we're doing it.
Um, but I think that the goldenage was 2020, when it was hey,
we have to get into this onewhale, we have to get into these
five, these 10 accounts.
Here you go, you have, you haveyour budget.
It's the wild west.
No one knows what tools workyet, right?
So I I think we're in atransition period where everyone
(03:40):
in marketing is becomingaccount-based marketing, but I
would argue that's actuallyaccount-based targeting.
Yeah, so I'll pause there.
Kevin Kerner (03:49):
Well, I wonder if it's because LinkedIn makes it
so easy to have accounttargeting.
Now you can load the accounttarget, you can load the context
, but it's really just targetedmarketing.
At this point, if you load in2,000 accounts, I think you're
exactly right.
It's not the same thing.
Bolton Graham (04:07):
It's.
Modern marketing is what it is,and I think Sixth Sense has
done a great job taking chargeof the verbiage and the words
and the dark funnel andeverything and kind of brought
everyone to that account-basedtargeting foundation.
But I do think that there'sstill so much potential for true
account-based marketing, if youcan even call it that anymore.
I've thought of some of thenames for it.
Kevin Kerner (04:29):
Yeah, yeah, there's got to be.
We should coin another term.
Right, we can just ask Jeff GPTto coin it for us after the end
of this call.
Bolton Graham (04:37):
Yeah, can we do it for us?
Kevin Kerner (04:39):
Yeah.
So you've seen firsthand thebeginning of ABM, starting ABM,
and then you've seen it scale.
You've probably seen it takeoff at a company.
Well, you did see it take offat Blew Under, and now I'm sure
you're doing it.
If you're doing it at a journey.
I think it would be interestingfor you to talk a little bit
about what happens when youfirst launch and then what
(05:00):
happens when it starts to scaleAbsolutely and what happens when
it starts to scale?
Bolton Graham (05:05):
Absolutely yeah.
So when you first launch it, itusually begins or at least what
I've lived is it begins in theproper account-based marketing
format of okay, here are fivewhale accounts that will be
absolute needle movers.
How do we get into them?
What tactics are we going touse?
The world is your oyster andthat's really how it started at
Blue Yonder.
You guys are a kind of specialgreen beret force within
(05:28):
marketing.
You're not really lead gen,you're not field marketing, you
guys are account-based marketing.
This is the account-basedmarketing team.
So you try new things, youexperiment and there's no
guardrails, right?
So there's no branding sayinghey, don't modify our brand to
match theirs, we got to staywithin our own branding.
(05:48):
It's really kind of the WildWest.
So you can spend a lot of timegetting to know your accounts,
getting to know the contactswithin your accounts and really
building a relationship withsales to say, hey, I'm not your
BDR, but I'm your marketingdevelopment rep.
I'm going to go out and drivebusiness for your key accounts,
and that's going to be day inand day out.
(06:08):
And when we win, we're going tocelebrate together and we'll
celebrate every small engagementvictory, every yes to a webinar
, every hand raise.
So it starts out small andpersonal.
What happens is eventually youwill see success.
And then that's when you getasked to scale right.
So you say, hey, wow, thishelped land this massive company
(06:29):
X.
We got to do this for all ofour accounts.
Why would we not do this forall accounts?
And that's when you start toblur the lines of well, if I'm
juggling, if I'm going fromjuggling five to 10 accounts to
100 accounts, and then 500accounts and 1000, the actual
time that I have to execute on aone-to-one level is almost zero
.
You morph as you try to scaleaccount-based marketing.
(06:52):
You morph into account-basedtargeting and targeted marketing
, which just becomes anotherlead gen department in your
company.
So it's really that spot of of.
How can you maintain the, thepersonalization required and the
attention to detail requiredfor account-based marketing,
while not just saying, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna slap
(07:14):
a logo on a page and call that apersonalized?
Kevin Kerner (07:17):
page personalization at scale right.
So how do you so?
I I've seen it happen firsthandwith you guys uh, with your,
your, our past work where itstarts to catch fire and you
want more and more.
I think you did a really goodjob of trying to contain it into
the one-to-one to maybeone-to-few space a few, being
like some little subgroup ofaccounts.
(07:37):
How did you find a way to keepit focused versus having it
explode into these massivecampaigns?
Bolton Graham (07:49):
Right, you really you have to keep it within an
agreement.
You have to lay foundationearly to say no, this is not an
account-based marketing account,this is not an ABM account, and
you have to be able toarticulate that and you have to
be able to defend that, becauseeveryone, once you hit success,
is going to want a slice of thepie.
So you're going to have salesleaders coming to you saying we
(08:12):
need to do this to our top 500accounts.
So if you have that the kind ofagreement in place before that,
you can then defend your spaceand say, well, no, actually
we're just going to do these 100and here's why.
So, whether that's, you know,it's a certain ARR, that they
have to be above, no, we're onlyrunning this to 1 billion and
(08:32):
above accounts, or they have tohave.
If you have an intent platformperhaps you have intent scoring
they must be above a certainintent score before we go full
into it.
So, yes, we'll nurture themwith our field marketing teams,
our lead gen teams.
As soon as that score hitssomething, yes, then we'll make
the one-to-one.
You have to be in a certainplace in the funnel, right?
(08:54):
So if a deal is already kind ofset to close but sales are
saying no, we need to guaranteethe close.
We really need an ABM programfor this.
That's way too late to engage.
You don't have enough runway toreally generate any difference.
In that you really need anagreement.
And as you start to findsuccess you need to think about.
Every company is different interms of what is your ACV or
(09:17):
your contract value, what is thesales cycle length.
All of that has to be kind ofdecided by you and the team.
But your parameters should betight enough where you can say,
now that we apply this to ourtotal addressable market,
there's about 100 accounts,maybe 200.
And that all depends on, again,the headcount of your team.
So if you're a one person ABMteam, I really am old school and
(09:41):
say no more than 50.
And that's a lot to me.
With every headcount you add.
You do add the capability to domore.
Yeah.
Kevin Kerner (09:49):
So it's a better.
It's a better scenario for youto have a lot of one-to-ones
than have a few targetedmarketing campaigns.
As an ABM marketer right, youdefinitely could have done
targeted marketing but, you'rereally focused on the, on the
one-to-one or maybeone-to-a-couple.
Do you think that's a skill?
I would imagine that.
(10:10):
I mean, I know you're a broadermarketer than this, but I know
you like the ABM side of things.
Do you think the skill set ofan account-based marketer is
different than a just generaltargeted marketer?
Bolton Graham (10:26):
Great question.
I do.
Yeah, I think, and I always sayaccount based marketing is
somewhere in between sales andmarketing.
It's a really interesting.
It's the sales enablement sideof the house where your lead
generation team, your field team, can be awesome at planning
events, throwing events, can begreat at balancing the perfect
(10:46):
marketing mix of top of funnel,mid funnel programs.
That's very programmatic.
Abm at its fundamental is lessprogrammatic and more feel, and
you really need to be involvedin every single lead for your
accounts that you're supporting.
You need to be just joined atthe hip with sales to understand
(11:07):
okay, this is working, this isnot working.
Why don't we buy a billboardoutside of their headquarters
and say, hey, company X, it'stime to talk.
Right, this is the kind ofagility that you need.
You kind of need the hunger ofa salesperson to stay interested
in your five to 10 to 50accounts at any given time.
So I really find you know,thinking of like college
(11:28):
students, if you're oscillatingbetween, oh, should I do
marketing, should I do sales?
There's a fusion in betweenaccount-based marketing or
whatever we change the name to.
It's kind of a bit of both, andwe can come back to that point,
because one of my hot takes isI think true account-based
marketing headcount should besomewhat commission-based.
Kevin Kerner (11:50):
I think you're exactly right.
I never really thought of itthat way.
It's kind of like a salesposition.
It's kind of like, you know,bdr support sales.
A really good account basedpeople are probably closer to
sales than they are thecommunications department or the
comms thing they're like.
They're like sale.
They're like salespeople thatare scientists, like marketing
(12:11):
scientists.
I love it.
They're salespeople without theschmooze.
You know.
Bolton Graham (12:15):
They're more of the scientist side of things
Exactly Instead of schmooze, wehave puns, that's right.
You really get a puns foraccount-based marketing.
Kevin Kerner (12:22):
Yeah they're very punny salespeople.
That is interesting, though,like the sales side of things
and commission, I never reallythought of that.
But yeah, the sales side ofthings and commission, I never
really thought of that.
But yeah, talk like why.
I think I can see why, but haveyou ever seen that happen
anywhere, is it?
I haven't.
Bolton Graham (12:39):
So maybe that's a a new LinkedIn article.
I'm about to go right.
When we're done with this.
Kevin Kerner (12:43):
Should they report ?
Should ABM?
I don't know.
Should ABM report into thesales organization somehow?
Or are they still a marketingfunction in your opinion?
Bolton Graham (12:50):
I think it's still a marketing function.
I don't know that I'd go thatfar, but at the same time I need
your cause, like, well, why not?
I do think it is this kind ofdepartment outside of marketing
and outside of sales it's it'skind of floats.
And you know, joining BlueYonder we were kind of this new
department even and yeah, werolled up to marketing for sure,
but we had this really niceautonomy to say we have some
(13:14):
allowance to break some ruleshere, to break some branding
rules, to do what we can.
Of course, eventually that willbe cracked down on as you scale
, but I have not seen acommission-based thing, I
haven't seen it even floated.
But thinking about it, if you'redoing true account-based
marketing, let's call it keyaccount marketing or enterprise
(13:37):
pursuit marketing.
I think is another one thatI've kind of ideated, where you
okay, you Bolton, you Kevin, youhave these five to 10 accounts
that you're going to work forthe year and, yeah, there is
maybe some ebb and flow.
We learned that a contract hasbeen lost so we need to replace
that account.
Fine, but let's say, for thesake of your 5% accounts, you
could lower the base salary alittle bit.
(13:58):
So, say, a marketing manager ismaking $90K, lower it to $80K,
but you have a 2% commission onwhatever closed one deals occur.
So I'm not talking 10%commission, 15% we're not SaaS
software salespeople but if youincentivize, even call it 1%.
If you close a 1.2 million ACBdeal because of all of your
(14:19):
awesome marketing efforts andyou get 1% to 2% of that, that's
okay, it's okay.
And then you're getting ifthere's no cap, you're getting
way more salary than you wouldget if you were just a standard
marketer.
I think that it's importantbecause you're so focused on
this small account group that itreally incentivizes and kind of
(14:39):
de-risks you being like, ohwell, I'm just going to throw
some of these leads and see whathappens, like no, you're going
to be in it, you're going to bein Sales Navigator.
You're going to be followingevery single contact, every
single lead in sales navigator.
You're going to be in, likefollowing every single contact,
every single lead, and I wouldsay, make them closer to a BDR
or an SDR role and yeah, jesusgot me thinking.
Kevin Kerner (14:58):
I mean, I think that's.
I never really thought of itthis way, but you just got me
thinking that maybe a good placefor uh to find a really good um
account based marketer is is asa BDR like a person that was a
BDR and make them anaccount-based person Because
they get the relationship withsales, they're heavy into
messaging and they talk tocustomers all day.
(15:20):
So they're probably the closestI talked to.
I can't remember who it was,maybe it was Katie Penner at
Sendoso, who was a former SDRand I started my career as a BDR
.
You don't know the customerthat well until you do, like you
know 100 dialings a day andthen you're definitely going to
know.
So it'd be a really fertileground for it's kind of like
(15:42):
that and that's the mind of anaccount-based marketer.
You just don't find thoseninjas as much anymore.
Bolton Graham (15:49):
I agree the industry's changed a bit to
where it's more, and I thinkit's a skill set thing too, but
it's also an interest thingwhere a lot of folks their
passion lies in the dashboardsand driving the numbers and
driving brand and creating brandIn account-based marketing.
It's much closer to sales.
You have to be able to pourover your lead patch and say, oh
(16:12):
, he was at that webinar twomonths ago and I sent him the
cool custom shoes or whatever.
There's Sendoza, shout out toSendoza and he received that
really well, okay, and now he'sfilled out a demo.
I need to communicate this tomy salespeople, because the
sales folks are doing their ownjob.
(16:32):
They're doing contracting workor contracts work and everything
.
They don't have the time to beable to say, oh, this awesome
ABM campaign has produced thismany leads for me and this has
been the messaging that they'vebeen going after this one
contact for six months with.
And then, all of a sudden, youhave dissonance, because this
lead has been nurtured from anABM standpoint over some
(16:54):
messaging of oh, let's go withappointment scheduling.
Every time that you forcesomeone to fill out a form and
wait for a call, you're losingbusiness, right?
So we've been nurturing them onthat messaging.
And then they get on the calland you say, yep, our queue
management's the best, and itkind of goes wait what we're
having.
We've been talking back andforth for months about
appointment scheduling and soyou get that, that kind of
(17:14):
dissonance, and all of a suddenyou're, you're in danger.
So if you can bring the abmpeople into the, you bring them
into the calls.
Right, they don't have to sayanything.
But they could say, oh well,remember the white socks game
two months ago?
They go, yeah, that's right,that's right, that fun time.
Now you've you've humanized thecall and now sales hasn't even
used your time.
Kevin Kerner (17:33):
Yeah, this is great.
I mean that's a really goodnugget, but I don't think it's.
It's nuanced, but I don't thinkit's talked about enough.
Just the skill set, the salesskill set of the AV marketer.
Okay, I want to switch laneshere a little and talk about the
one-to-one side of things.
You've done a ton ofone-to-ones.
I don't know how many we didtogether, but it was a lot I
(17:55):
wanted.
I want you to talk about yoursystem like one of the most
important parts of that process,from beginning to end.
Let's say, pick out a few ofthe, the main tactics you can
give people some advice onthrough that stream of that,
through that work stream yeah,again, it Again.
Bolton Graham (18:12):
It's going to seem obvious, but the most
important part of the process isthe beginning and it's the
actual building youraccount-based marketing list.
So that goes back to what I wastalking about, with the
standard agreement of yes, thisis an account-based marketing
account or no, it is not, andsticking to that and really
defining why is this anaccount-based marketing target.
So that's first and foremost.
(18:33):
And then it really is.
Account-based marketing is itsown microcosm of a marketing
department where you're going tobe using the entire mix of
tactics.
There's not one tactic that isan ABM tactic.
You're going to be using socialpaid ads focused just at that
account.
You're going to be usingcustomized landing pages, direct
mail, surveys, buyingbillboards in front of their HQ,
(18:55):
helping to fund charity eventsthat are important to them.
There is a lot of stuff thatyou can do, but what matters
most is giving it the time forthe personalization, because you
want to communicate.
Clearly.
I am entirely invested in oursolution and how it's going to
help you, and I'm going to spendall my time to over-communicate
(19:17):
and over-personalize.
I know you play the cross atUML.
I know you want to almost creepthem out.
Right, you don't want to go sofar, but the thing that
account-based marketing is foris standing out Like in a world
of noise.
Abm is able to take the time tocut through, and when a custom
golf head cover comes in withtheir college or alma mater with
(19:42):
a note that says hey, I knowthat you graduated from XYZ,
would love a chance to talk.
I really think our solutionwould help.
One, two, three.
Kevin Kerner (19:51):
What about the sales relationship?
How do you manage thateffectively?
Bolton Graham (19:54):
Regular meetings and over communication.
So I really think you, for theaccounts where there's obviously
most of them would be namedaccounts, but you have to have a
huddle with all of your salespeople individually at least
once a week, maybe even multipletimes a week.
You need to open the channelsof communication.
If you're using Slack, ifyou're using Teams every day,
(20:16):
hey, just want to let you knowthat so-and-so opened this email
.
We're going to nurture them,we're working on it.
Let me know if you see anythingfrom your end.
And then every Friday orwherever it is, you have a call.
You say, okay, this is how theintent scores moved.
If you don't have an intentplatform, you can build your own
signals saying, okay, this iswho opened and clicked emails,
this is cookie people on oursite.
You can kind of make your ownsignals, right If you don't have
(20:38):
the budget for a Rolls Roycesix cents kind of thing.
So you really need it goes backto the BDR and SDR thing.
You're almost like a marketingdevelopment rep where you need
to be a tight at the hip.
Kevin Kerner (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Now what about the?
What about outside of theoutside of the sales
relationship?
Now you've got marketing and,let's say, executive leadership
team.
How do you sell the value ofthis investment, cause you're
making a pretty big investmentto go one-to-one ABM Like how do
you, what do you do, to sellthe value to that?
How do you message them at thebeginning stages, when it's you
(21:10):
know you don't have the, thecred yet, and how do you message
them over time such that theyhave confidence that they're
spending in the right way?
Bolton Graham (21:18):
Yeah, it's a fantastic question and it's one
that I know people contend withall the time, because they they
want ABN departments.
But it's you want how, how much?
money per account.
That's crazy.
That's going to double ourheadcount or whatever it is.
So you just have to communicatewhat is the price if we don't
do it right.
So, yes, we can keep doing whatwe're doing and hope that some
(21:41):
of our kind of traditional leadgeneration metrics or tactics
make it through and we slowlygrow our process base.
Yes, but if and 5% of peopleare ready to buy at any given
time.
But what if, through ABM, wecan make that 5% ready to buy at
any time, 10% or 15%, becausewe're giving them a compelling
(22:02):
event delivered straight totheir door, delivered straight
in front of them, with this verycarefully crafted message
that's going to cut through allthat kind of standard marketing.
So it's not a replacement for amarketing department.
I would never say that.
It's in conjunction with it andit's, like I said, this kind of
hybrid sales enablement role.
(22:23):
So you have to say, trust me,let's give it a shot.
What if we close this $1.2million deal?
The salary is X, y, it's 80K,it's 90K, whatever it is.
Maybe you follow the commissionmodel.
So worst case, it's 200K.
Right, it's absolutely killingit.
But if, after that first year,give it two years, if you've
(22:45):
closed that mammoth account thatnow has all the upsell and
cross-sell opportunity for allyour other solutions.
That program has paid foritself for the next seven years.
So it is a bit of a.
It's a bit of a leap out of theout of the gate.
But if you can prove the, provethe breadcrumbs as you build it
, so prove that you're drivingincreased engagement in the
(23:06):
account.
Show that you're getting moreengaged contacts that can then
be remarketed to and nurtured.
Show that you're increasingevent attendance at these
accounts by people at thoseaccounts and then kind of build
your believability that wayuntil finally you get that close
one you can say, see, and thenyou're doomed because everyone
is going to want one.
Kevin Kerner (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, right, and then you can measure, you
know, customer acquisition costand it's going to pay off.
I think it's interesting yousay engagement, because we're
having conversations right nowwith a few marketing leaders
that are having a really hardtime selling just the value of
marketing in general.
But that journey you have totake an executive on, like a CEO
(23:47):
, or the executive leadershipteam, and that the idea of
engagement it's, you know, it'ssomething that they sort of get
in the ELT.
They're like, okay, yeah, Iguess yeah, but until they
actually see the closed deal andthe cost relative to that
closed deal and they're like, oh, okay, that makes sense.
It's a really hard sell formarketing leaders.
(24:09):
So you almost have to have thepatience to stick it through and
it's scary.
It's probably more scary nowfor a lot of our customers
because they're they're under somuch pressure for immediate
performance and that's probablywhat drives the the not you're
not the one-to-one route, butthe you know, targeted marketing
route, cause it's like, well,I'm under all this pressure,
(24:29):
it's cheaper to do this one, soI gotta get this one done,
because I can't get theone-to-one thing done no, that's
exactly it and I think um, abmor true abm whatever we're
calling it key accountingmarketing.
Bolton Graham (24:39):
It's not going to be for everyone.
So if, if your sales cycles isis really fast, um, and your
your contract values averagecontact values are kind of lower
than what it would be for aheadcount to staff, this, a
one--to-one method, is probablynot the best strategy and what
you can do is a hybrid.
So you do one-to-few, you doone-to-many with all of your
(25:01):
clever modern segmentations andintent signals and that's
totally fine, and you can dipyour toe and say, okay, do the
one-to-fews, do the one-to-manys, and then, with any bandwidth
left, let's just test pilotcompany X, let's see if we can
spend some extra budget and seeany kind of increased engagement
or whatever it is.
That's a really good way tokind of dip your toe in.
(25:24):
But the true, like enterprisesize, if you have K plus ACVs
and deals that are closing, ifyour sales cycle is six months
or longer, you need thisengagement to keep people
involved and to keep peopleinterested in buying and worried
about the pain point thatyou're trying to solve.
So there's a whole discussionto be had about folks that don't
believe in marketing.
(25:45):
We can't even get into that now, but of course I'm in the camp.
Kevin Kerner (25:48):
I'll write that book someday, I'll write the
book someday, or it's like.
This is the reasons why there'sthe what's?
The 95 five rule, where 95% ofyour customers aren't in market
Currently, only 5% of them are.
And so if you're for your bigcustomers, it's like man, you
just got to keep, you got to geton the day one list when
they're looking, and you're notgoing to get on that list if
(26:10):
they don't know who you are.
And so ABM with big accounts isa great way to make sure they
at least know who you are andwhat your brand stands for.
And I do totally agree thatit's a sales approach.
We're going to think ofwhatever that term is for what
this is, or maybe it shouldn'tbe called.
Maybe the person that does itshould have a sales sort of name
(26:31):
.
We need to think of that.
Bolton.
We'll get a blog post out thereat some point together.
Bolton Graham (26:35):
Yeah, maybe it's a marketing account executive.
Kevin Kerner (26:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there it is, yeahSomething.
Bolton Graham (26:40):
M-A-E.
Kevin Kerner (26:46):
Yeah, m-a-e, I like it.
One last question, and then I'mgoing to have you play a little
game here.
Since you've done so many ofthese, what's one underrated
tool, tactic, tactic or workflowyou think people should be
using now in abm?
Let me sit with that for asecond I need my knee jerk is
direct mail.
Bolton Graham (26:59):
I think that that the secret's kind of out of the
bag there.
You know, there was a long timewhere people would say you're
still there.
On direct mail we budgeted forfor mailers it's not 1990, what
are you talking about?
But there's been such a hugeresurgence, especially with,
with intent, data, that you canget and say, all right, we know
this person's just in incrocheting, let's get them a
(27:20):
crochet with our logo orwherever it is that can be
really powerful, because landingon desks is is having a
physical presence is huge.
Um, so that's probably not anearth-shaking one, but that's
that's my knee jerk.
I think visual.
I keep coming back tobillboards because I really
think that there's a huge visualcomponent in physical space
that we're also missing.
(27:41):
And if you can get to peoplewhen they're inside of their
kind of daily routines, when notin front of their computer,
that's massive.
So whether it's posters or abillboard or buying visual space
on a bus, like these are thingsthat can have.
They're very cost efficientbecause not a lot of people are
(28:02):
doing them and it's hard toprove the ROI because it's not
digital and you can't pixel abillboard.
But when people, when youdisrupt people maybe that's a
bad word when you shock peopleinto saying like, oh, that's an
ad for so-and-so.
They were, they invited me tothat webinar and they sent me
that awesome head cover thatstarts to really build this kind
of ecosystem within their mindof this is a legitimate player
(28:24):
in the space at the very leasttotally.
Kevin Kerner (28:27):
It's a pattern.
When someone told me that theyuse the word pattern interrupt,
and I think that is becomingeven more needed now than ever,
especially with ai, becauseevent I mean eventually you
can't use email, you won't beable to use linkedin.
Really there's going to becalls coming to you that are
crazy.
I think the personal connectionangle is going to be one of the
last things we're left with.
(28:48):
And then I do believe thatmaybe an abm, especially that
the, the, the, the thing, thetactics are going to work are
going to be a personalconnection that you can make
with an individual.
So it's like you know it'sdirect mail, it's showing up in
a space they don't know, it'sevents specific events.
The event industry might see ahuge resurgence because of all
(29:08):
the other noise in the nonface-to-face world.
I just say I think I'm hearingthat from where people are like
the only thing that might beleft will be the conversations
that we have, because everythingelse will be just so noisy
going on with all the crazystuff.
Okay, I wanted to this will bethe third time I've tried this
and but the other two times itworked.
No, the other two times itcompletely exploded.
(29:29):
No, I'm kidding.
So what I do is I'm going tocall this ai roulette and I'm
going to put a question intoperplexity, and it's basically I
put all of our.
I said I'm having aconversation with bolton, uh,
here's what we're going to talkabout, um, and here's his
background.
And then I put all of your, allof your, uh a link to your
(29:49):
linkedin profile with all yourposts, so so it could read your
posts.
Bolton Graham (29:53):
Nice, so I'm going to hit.
Kevin Kerner (29:55):
I'm going to hit send here and we're going to see
what it says.
Okay, based on Bolton's recentLinkedIn activity and profile,
here is here's a provocative andunexpected question you could
ask him at the end of the show.
Bolton, you recently announcedthat your company journey JRNI
is pronounced Journey.
If you had to rebrand yourselfas an ABM practitioner with an
(30:19):
unconventional spelling, whatwould it be and why?
Bolton Graham (30:22):
So I have to rebrand myself.
Kevin Kerner (30:24):
Yeah, you got to rebrand yourself as an ABM
practitioner with anunconventional spelling Kind of
like what's the our music artistmy kids listen to?
Jake spelled G-V-K-E, I think,or something like that.
Bolton Graham (30:39):
Yeah, you get the Charlie X, X-C-X.
Whatever, I'm not hitting theone.
Oh geez, that's a good one.
So my coworkers at Journey havetaken to calling me Boltron
because I'm a marketing machine.
So I think I would have to goBoltron and Boltron because I'm
a marketing machine.
So I think I would have to goBoltron and then switch the O
with a zero, because that kindof evokes the digital side and
(31:02):
the kind of tech support thatyou need to be successful in
account-based marketing.
Kevin Kerner (31:07):
Oh, that's good.
I think you should probably putthat in your LinkedIn profile.
Then I might have to.
It would be very edgy to havethe zero in the in the then no
one could find you Like where'sBolton?
True, probably break thealgorithm.
Well, this has been awesome,man.
I really I've always enjoyedcatching up with you, but this
is really good.
I think I think some greatstuff here for people.
(31:30):
I think I here for people.
I think I think it's, I think II'm.
Eyes are open now for me aboutthe sales angle here on all this
stuff so amazing.
I know you'd bring some greatinsight.
I would love to have you backon again in the future to talk
about how this is all workingout with all the AI stuff that's
going on.
It's going to be crazy, but Ireally appreciate it.
I want people to be able to getahold of you.
What's the best way for them toreach you?
Bolton Graham (31:51):
I'd say connect on LinkedIn.
I'm always there justinnovating the journey brand and
just trying to make connections.
So yeah, check me out onLinkedIn, please.
Kevin Kerner (32:01):
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much, Bolton.
It's great to have you here andI look forward to catching up
with you soon.
Awesome Thanks, Kevin.
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