Episode 10: Beyond the Starting Line: Maintaining Momentum When Motivation Fades

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to the Daily Edge, where we bring you the
latest how to continue to dothings over a long period of
time sustainability, things thatyou don't want to do but maybe
you're training for a marathonor a race and it gets monotonous
, and so I thought it would be agood dialogue where we could
dive into this topic of just themundane where we're constantly

(00:43):
faced with, probably motivationissues.
It's a lot of times easy to getstarted because you got that
motivation, you got that passion, something happened and you got
to live off of that high, butthat high doesn't stay very long
, so why don't one of you jumpin and kind of talk to me about
some of your thoughts aroundthat?

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Sure, I mean, you know I can start.
I'd like to start with myfailures, because you know the
early part of my life and Iwould say early up until
probably my early thirties Iwasn't great at sustaining
anything.
If you look at my weight, itwas a roller coaster, you know,
entering high school at 145pounds, graduating at 225.
And then over the next call it10 years, um, you know getting

(01:27):
down when, when you came out toseattle, getting down to 163
pounds and then by the time Iwas married I was 240, um, with
a 260 in there a couple yearsprior, and always up and down.
Same thing with marathons andrunning.
I ran my first marathon in 07and then stopped for five years,
never really figuring out howto sustain anything.
And so you know one of thethings I'm most proud about, you

(01:50):
know you'll get on Reddit oryou'll get on social media and
you'll see people post thesepictures of these great weight
losses and in a lot of the timesespecially if they're close
friends and you follow theirjourney more broadly you'll see
them gain the weight back.
So one of the things I'mpersonally most proud of is
getting to a point where now youknow I've been able to sustain

(02:11):
my weight for over a decade.
A lot of that's due to theconsistency of running, but it's
also due to finding asustainable nutrition plan and
approach to food, as I've alwayskind of struggled with that.
So, you know, we can unpacksome of those things a little
bit later, but I'd like to, Iguess, pose the question to you
guys, as it relates to some ofthe things you've struggled with

(02:34):
, and then I think we can kindof go back and maybe talk about
our solutions to those problemsand what we've done to ensure
that we put ourselves in thebest position for longevity and
just a healthy lifestyle, youknow, for the time we're here on
earth.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, I think for me, a lot of this goes back to
where your head is at before youstart and what you're actually,
what your goal is, what you'restriving to achieve.
So I did a similar thing, or atleast tried to, when we ran our
first marathon in 2012,.
I was done and that was it,until Trent came back and after

(03:14):
that summer running with TJ andthat hundred miler in South
Dakota, you said you wanted torun and then we got back into it
.
So for me, that first goal wasabout running a marathon.
That was a bucket list item forme, and when I was done with
that, that was it.
What's kept me going, when Ihave been able to sustain, is

(03:36):
what is that goal and does thatfit into, kind of the long-term
picture?
So I went from then we ran asecond marathon and eventually
my goals shifted.
Certainly and I think there'san element of goal stacking here
that we can get into later thatplays into for me,

(03:58):
sustainability, but it's wantingto have a level of fitness that
made the rest of the otherparts of my life much easier,
and so as that goal shifted, forme, my motivation shifted from
running this race and then beingdone with that race to finding

(04:18):
a way to, in a fresh manner,sustain it long-term.
In a fresh manner, sustain itlong-term, Trent?

Speaker 1 (04:30):
So would that be?
I mean, what you're saying isthe motivation or what initially
got you started in something.
When you shifted to more of amaintenance mode, you had
different goals.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, I would say different goals, a different
approach and mindset, and Ithink that allowed me to keep it
fresher For a long time.
It was running.
But one of the things that Iincorporated pretty early on was
Orange Theory Fitness.
That kept it fresh for me andthat kept it fun, and I would
bounce back and forth betweenthe two.
I do a lot of running in thesummer.
I would do Orange Theory in thewinter because we all know how
much I love cold running.

(05:00):
And actually this year, for thefirst time, I honestly found
myself really having an issuegoing into late last year with
this sustainability conversation, this exact thing like why am I
still doing this?
We had run for almost 400 daysand it's like you know, I've,
I've run the marathons, I've runyou know Boston a few times.
Is that was maybe my 10th or11th and I was just like what,

(05:23):
what doing?
Um, I'm doing the spartan racefor the first time this year.
Uh, just to mix it up and it'sa that's a little bit of a
different race.
it's got running in it, but italso has these, um, uh, I don't
know what you call them, theseuh different physical tests yes,
physical challenges uh, thankyou Sprinkled throughout the

(05:46):
duration of this event, and sofor me, finding a way to keep it
fresh and mix in differentthings, I think is certainly
important that all contribute tojust kind of circle this back,
that all contribute to thatoverarching goal of staying fit.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
I just finished a book called Win, the Inside Game
by Steve Magnus and this really, I think, expounds on or shines
a light on this balance, andI'd love to hear from you on
this.
What I mean is in the balanceI'm discussing is the balance of
exploration, so trying newthings to keep it fresh but at

(06:22):
the same time balancing in whatworks for your lifestyle.
So I think, you know, we hear alot from people surrounding us.
We've talked a lot aboutcommunity and there are negative
elements to community.
There are particular people whothink you should do it their
way, you know, criticizingpeople who have streaks, because
streaks limit these otherpursuits, or criticizing people

(06:46):
who do cross training or who runon treadmills Uh, you know.
So being confident in yourselfto say this is my way, this is
how I'm going to do it, this iswhat I enjoy, but at the same
time and in the book kind oftalked about how important it is
to continue to explore what'sout there and to not get in that
rut um rut where you're gettingall of your validation and

(07:08):
you're you know cause.
The longer you chase aparticular pursuit in a
particular manner, the more youidentify with that particular
pursuit, the more that becomespart of you and the more
unhealthy that is.
So I know that you have reallytaken to your approach right now

(07:28):
with fitness, but over theyears you've talked about it in
prior podcasts you've struggledwith consistency in a number of
different areas.
So I'd love to hear how you'veutilized whether it's finding
your routine or exploration, tokeep you kind of motivated.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
That's kind of interesting For the first time,
when you said that it's like youkind of buy into a certain type
of exercise and that kind ofbecomes a little bit of your
identity, and for me that's the.
I never would have pegged that,but for me running has kind of
become that, that just I do itevery day, it's just part of my
life and so that's kind of I'vekind of settled into that.

(08:06):
I would say a couple of thingsbalance, trying to find
something that works for you.
Recently I decided to do morestretching, so I found this
company, posture RX, and I washaving some kind of issues and
you know, and we all sit and dodifferent things and they're
like okay, their first questionwas how many minutes a day are

(08:29):
you going to work on?
Tell me a timeframe.
I was like I want five minutes.
They're like give me the mosteffective things I can do in
five minutes.
Like do I have 20?
Do I have 30?
I know that I have five minutesand similar on a workout
standpoint.
When you know we went and wedid that mayo thing, it was like
I know I'm not going to go tothe gym and work out 30 minutes

(08:51):
a day, and so I was like give mefive to ten minutes of core
exercises that I can do, so Ican focus on core, so I can
focus on.
And so what I've tried to do ismy cardio, is my cardio, and
that's important to me because Iwant to feel cardio, and that's
important to me because I wantto feel good, I want to be able
to move long-term.
I I just finished skiing andI'm out there with guys that are
70 plus and they're skiing andI'm like, well, I would love to

(09:15):
be able to still ski when I'm 70plus.
And so what does that look like?
It looks like taking care ofmyself from a physical fitness
standpoint.
It's not just running, it's notjust core.
But I think you have to choose.
I think it's hard to do it all.
It's hard to make a commitmentthis year on top of the running.
I'm like okay, I'm 44.
I'm going to do 44 pushups aday, and so I've added that to
my routine goal stacking, as youwould talk about, and so just

(09:38):
trying to find things that are,um, they don't take a ton of
time.
But I think the most importantthing is the consistency.
You do 44 pushups a day for 365days.
What is that?
12 or 13,000 pushups?
Like the difference of doingthat a day versus doing a
hundred one day and a hundred,you know, four days later.
Like trying to find consistency,trying not to overdo it in

(10:01):
every area.
But I haven't done a reallygood job of probably exploring
new things.
I've just kind of settled inand when you start talking about
that it's like that's probablyan area in my life I should try
some other things.
I'm afraid to to some extent.
I heard pickleball is a lot offun but a lot of lateral
movements.
I don't want to blow a knee oran ankle out the recovery from
that.

(10:21):
So I would say, personally I'ma little timid there, but I have
tried to find ways that fitwithin what I'm willing to put
the time into to achieve thegoals that I want to achieve.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
I'd like to bring this up before I lose this
thought.
I'd love to explore differenttimes because I'm sure listeners
have done this that you havestruggled with justifying or
reasoning away performance.
So, you know, I think of a timeafter 07, where I remember
going out, you know, and this isvery early on in the marathon

(10:58):
journey, so it was a Hal Higdontraining program from Runner's
World and very basic, and youknow that was the oh, it takes
30 days to recover from amarathon and you shouldn't do
anything for two weeks.
And you know that was the oh,it takes 30 days to recover from
a marathon and you shouldn't doanything for two weeks.
And I remember like whateverthat period.
So after the two weeks, I wentout and I ran and I'm like, oh,
my knee.
I'm like, oh, I can't runanymore.
And, oddly enough, that was it.

(11:18):
I'm done oh, my knee.
You know I remember this alsohappening after Monumental in
2012, but that time it was like,oh, this isn't stopping me,
I'll work through this.
So I'd love to explore timesthat you guys have struggled
with and different maybenegative thoughts or external

(11:39):
thoughts that have played intoyour fitness journeys and you've
like justified away, or whatare the demons you fight on a
regular basis and how do youfight them?

Speaker 3 (11:50):
I would say injury is a big one.
Most people don't realize that.
I, before I ran that firstmarathon, I tried to train twice
and quit because it was reallyhard to have context for the
injury, like you said, my rightknee in particular.
It was shin splints the firsttime because I tried to go from

(12:11):
zero to 100 overnight and thenmy right knee gave me issues and
immediately it was like I gotto shut this down.
And so I think what I would sayreal quickly, just in context to
that, is like that's part ofthe journey too, and I think
learning to embrace that andappreciate those failures and

(12:33):
those times that you go throughwhere there's a lack of
motivation, leaning into that, Ithink is really important
because that's inevitable.
I mean you, there's no way.
I, that's inevitable.
I mean you, there's no way inno area of life business,
spiritually, uh, fitness, areyou going to ride the peak, like
it's.
That's part of the journey.
Is you go up on the mountain,you come down the mountain and

(12:55):
then you remember the mountainand you climb back up Right, and
so for me, uh, I would say thatis a is a big part of it is
just embracing those low pointsand figuring out how to get back
up the mountain.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
One question I want to ask both of you.
So you have injury and you havepain tolerance.
I struggle with my childrenunderstanding which one's which.
But talk to me a little bitabout how do you know when to
listen to your body, like withyour knee and I know you have
several examples and how do youknow when to push through it and

(13:38):
how do you navigate that?

Speaker 2 (13:41):
I think it's something you learn over time.
One of the rules of thumb thatI was given by one of my very
first running coaches, a guy bythe name of Carl Meltzer, who is
the winningest 100 miler in theworld.
He's won countless number of100 mile races and he said to me
he said, if it gets betterwhile you're running, keep going
.
If it doesn't shut it down.

(14:01):
And I think that's been a goodrule of thumb.
You know, as you get deeper andas I think, more of your
identity gets tied to whatyou're doing, you don't listen
to your body as much as youshould because you feel like I
have to get out there and I haveto get it, so it actually
completely flips it on its head.
You know, when you first start,you're looking for any little

(14:29):
because it's tough, it'sdifficult to do, you don't want
to do it and you're looking forany little reason to stop.
And then it becomes over timeagain as you get more of your
identity tied into thatlistening and and so for me I'll
give you an example.
This has been a very difficultthree months.
Um, I was diagnosed withrheumatoid arthritis in December
I think, or early January,finding out that I've had this
severe foot pain for years andin the end of 24, got to the

(14:54):
point where it was almostunbearable.
And then I started to noticethings in my hands and my
extremities and my knees and myelbows and eventually being
diagnosed with that.
Extremities and my knees and myelbows uh, and eventually being
diagnosed with that.
As soon as we figure out whatwhat that problem is and and put
a plan in place to startdealing with those things, we
find a stress reaction in myright foot which is a precursor
to a stress fracture and westart to deal with that and we

(15:18):
put a plan in place and you knowwe're doing all of these
different things.
And then I strained my calf twoweeks ago running intervals.
So you know, early in therunning journey, any one of

(15:38):
those things could have been anexcuse and I think that a lot of
times we look for those andthere's unfortunately so much
information out there that we'refinding out is medically
incorrect, like I mean, when youtell people you run high
mileage inevitably, especiallyif they're older, and it just is

(15:58):
what it is because there isn'tas much access to information.
What's the first thing they say?

Speaker 1 (16:02):
I was going to be.
One of my questions is you goto a traditional doctor and you
go for xyz and the first thingis shut it down, yeah, and then
you go to a shout out, to jacobcrow, I mean yeah, john grant as
well, who I go to.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Both those guys they're going to figure out a
way to get you through it.
And there are this funny uh, wego to and I don't want to again
, you know, shouting out thosetwo guys because they're huge
supports for us.
But we also go to a sportsperformance place in
Indianapolis.
They have a couple differentlocations and there are two
doctors.
One of them is a triathlete,one of them is not, and if you

(16:36):
go to either one of those twodoctors, you will get completely
different.
One of them will tell you shutit down, we're going to do this
from scratch.
You're not running for sixweeks.
The other one will be like okay, go to John or Jacob, let's
reduce it a little bit.
But here's the plan to bringyou back to what you want to get

(16:57):
to, because they understand howit impacts you mentally, what
part of your identity is tied upin there, what kind of goals
you have and how.
Achieving those goals from amental, physical, spiritual
health perspective is going tobe much more, much more
beneficial to you in thelongterm than finding an excuse
to shut it down.
And I think the doctors that dotell you to shut things down.
Yes, there are times for that,but that creates this negative

(17:18):
loop where that always becomesyour solution.
And then, all of a sudden, youknow when you get to this age,
as you guys know, you're nevergoing to wake up and feel like
at the beginning of the day,like yeah, you know, super, um,
excited.
The difference is, when you arephysically fit, that subsides
after the first couple ofminutes of walking around.

(17:39):
When you're not, it never does.
You feel awful all the time.
Or you're operating and I willtell you this after getting
diagnosed with RA and then goingon prednisone, which masked all
of my pain.
You have no idea, I think,those of you who aren't taking
care of yourselves, at whatlevel you're operating at.

(18:01):
You know, you just think that'snormal.
Oh, I'm 45.
I'm 47.
I'm 50.
I'm 60.
I'm supposed to feel that wayand that's what I thought.
And then, you know, realizing Ineed to pay attention to my
health instead of, again, I wason the bad side of it, right,
ignoring it and saying, oh, it'sfine, I'll just get through it.
I'm tough, you know.

(18:25):
Once I figured out I don't haveto, you know, I need to pay
attention to my health.
I do need to listen to my body.
Unfortunately for me, it took acouple of years until I did,
but once I did and started doingthe right thing for myself
which, by the way and I willgive kudos to my rheumatologist
and John Grant, they both one ofmy big concerns was shut it
down.
You need to shut it downbecause your body's attacking

(18:47):
your joints and we need topreserve what's left of them.
And both of them were like keepmoving, Don't change, keep
moving.
You know all of this research,all of the people that and this
is gonna be an unpopular opinionthat are like oh, your knees,
you run high mileage your knees.
It's absolutely false.
It's completely false.
You high mileage your knees.

(19:08):
It's absolutely false.
It's completely false.
Continuing to create blood flowand continuing to strengthen
the muscles and tendons thatsupport those joints long-term.
We know people, like you justsaid, in their 70s, that are
skiing.
If you're skiing aggressivelyand you're skiing moguls and
you're skiing they'd say thesame thing that's terrible for
your knees.
Well then, how are they doingit at 70?
Sitting around doing nothing isjust as bad for your knees as

(19:29):
going out and being active, andthere are I'm not downplaying
other issues that may happen.
Maybe you have been involved ina particular sport where you've
torn tendons multiple times andyou've had to have surgeries.
I get that.
There are those things.
I know your wife deals withthat.
So, not downplaying like severeknee trauma, but from a

(19:52):
degenerative perspective it'sjust as bad to do nothing as it
is to do something.
So I know I kind of went off ona tangent there, but, um, you
know, if you start to lean intoit, like you said, and you start
to embrace and look forsolutions to these problems and
follow a simple rule of thumblike if it gets worse, stop.

(20:14):
If it doesn't continue, I thinkthat you'll eventually get to a
point where that becomes.
An exciting part of it isfiguring out okay, I have all of
these things, how do I continueto maintain my fitness?
And it forces you to explore aswell with the challenges that
are in front of me.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
I want to touch on a couple of things.
I want to be devil's advocate,Okay, so let's just use knees as
an example, because everyonesays you run every day Like it's
so bad for you.
Do you feel like your knees?
I try to compare it.
There are a set of tires right,or whatever name the part.
Do you believe there is a pointwhere you're doing too much

(20:56):
Like?
Could you overdo it?
Will they wear out eventually?

Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah, let me just jump in.
I think we're talking about twodifferent things here.
I think there is my personalopinion is I think there is an
element of wear and tear.
That's real.
However, I think what TJ'ssaying I've heard the phrase
motion is lotion right when itcomes to just day-to-day
well-being right and wellnessand ability to get around and

(21:23):
that sort of thing.
Exercise has proven time andtime and time again to be a
positive thing for that.
So I think what TJ's saying isshutting it down completely is
probably going to make you feelworse on a day-to-day basis,
like maybe your joints mightlast a little longer, but what's
the point?
I mean the whole reason you'remaintaining your well-being is

(21:44):
for your continued ease ofmovement right over time.
So if you are not moving on, aand tear but that wear and tear
is going to it's going to bemuch less prevalent if you're

(22:11):
continuing to move on a dailybasis.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
I would agree with that.
I think that wear and tear isgoing to happen naturally, just
as you age.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
But the difference between you running 3, 000 miles
a year and somebody running1200 miles a year yeah like what
.
What is that and how does thatyou know, work?

Speaker 3 (22:34):
yeah, I think that really depends on the person.
It depends on how you'rerunning, what the impact is like
, where you're running.
Are you running trails?
Are you running pavement?
What's your foot strike like?
What is your um?
You know, I think there's a tonof different factors that play
into what that wear and tearwill do over time.
But I think tj's right in termsof the perception is that

(22:59):
everyone's tires are running outof 60 000 miles once.
Once you hit 60,000 miles, it'sover.
You've got to get a replacement.
I think that's not necessarilythe case Now.
Our grandpa one of the thingsthat he swore by was walking
like three miles a day.
Right, he went to the mall.
So I think those are some ofthe things that are not

(23:20):
necessarily a bad idea.
I think running some people dohave issues with running.
There's bad joints, some ofthat's hereditary.
It just is a very painfulexperience for people.
But incline walking or walkingin general I've been talking to
people quite a bit about thatIncline walking is one of the
best things you can do from afitness perspective because
you're really trying to achievea certain level of heart rate.

(23:42):
You don't necessarily need toget your heart rate into the
150s, 60s, 70s to get a lot ofthe fitness benefits.
I think you can get 80% of thebenefits, fitness-wise, from
going out and walking.
So I think modification to TJ'spoint, as you talked about John
Grant and some of those othersit's about modification, not
shutting it down not shutting itdown.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, I would say that, to kind of elaborate just
a little bit on that, is thatthe more you do, the more
intense you are, the three, themore um, extra work you have to
do.
Like so, biomechanically right,if you're running a lot, you
need to make sure that yourbiomechanics are in order, which
is what John and Jacob will do.
Are your glutes firing?
How's your foot strike?
Are your hips open?
So you know, I think you lookat elite runners towards the end

(24:30):
of their career.
Meb Kofleski comes to mind.
You know, I remember readingthat Meb would do 40 or 45
minutes of activation before hewent to run.
You know when you're running 80, 90, 100 miles a week, that's
his job.
You know, and as I've beencoming back from these things
I've been having to do, you knowwhen you're running 80, 90, a

(24:50):
hundred miles a week, that's hisjob.
Um, you know, and as I've beencoming back from these things
I've been having to do, you know, a significant amount of
physical therapy to make surethat, uh, when I do get back
into running, that,biomechanically I'm right, and I
think that when it comes towalking, those are less intense.
So you don't have to worryabout your biomechanics as much.
And I think some people and thisis something that we've, I know
, had conversations with,because I said this a thousand

(25:10):
times over the years becauserunning is a natural movement,
people don't think they need topractice, people don't think
that there's a right way to doit, and so you get out there and
you go run and the first coupleof times and you see these
runners on a TV that aremarathoners, and you see these
beautiful long strides and maybeyou look at some information or

(25:31):
you look at the way thatcertain shoes are structured
from a geometric perspective andyou're like I got a stride long
and I hit my heel and I rollthrough it, not understanding
that both of those things areterrible when you're beginning
running.
And so you implement thesebiomechanics and you become
comfortable with these thingsand over time you do face those
kinds of issues because you'renot utilizing the way the body

(25:54):
has evolved over the years in acorrect manner to maintain that
longevity.
So I would say that the morework you do, the faster you run,
the more conscious you need tobe about the other things, like
stretching, and now there's eventhis, this static stretching
pre running versus post.

(26:16):
People are saying you don't,you shouldn't stretch before you
run, you should do itafterwards.
So there's always moreinformation coming out as to how
you should approach that.

Speaker 3 (26:26):
Let me ask you guys this so we've spent a lot of
time talking about the physicalaspect of this, of
sustainability and recovery, andwe haven't gotten into sleep.
But I think we should at somepoint, because that's incredibly
important as well and, I think,underrated in today's day and
age.
But let's talk mentally aboutthat sustainability.
How long have you been runningTJ?
13, consistently for 13 years,13 years and Trent, you're close

(26:50):
behind that 2014, so how haveand some of this we probably
touched on in prior episodes butmentally, talk about some of
the training blocks that yourecall that you've really
struggled with or have beenreally difficult for you, and
how you have fought throughthose mentally, maybe when

(27:11):
physically you're okay.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, I'll jump in.
So I remember training formarathons.
I can't remember exactly whichone, but I had a training plan
right and I had to get in theseruns, and there are certain runs
that are workouts, and Iremember, and most of my runs
are in the morning, and gettingup in the winter 6am in the dark

(27:34):
and running, and I remember notwanting to do that and, and I
think during a training processthere's peaks where you kind of
you know I think during atraining process there's peaks
where you kind of you know youkind of level up, and when you
have a bad day it's especiallyon a workout day it kind of
destroys you mentally, um, andso I would say, during the

(27:55):
process I struggled with that alot.
Uh, having a partner to runwith was helpful.
I didn't always have that,though, and, marion, especially
as I started training andgetting up to faster speeds like
finding people the same speedis tough.
Um, so, mentally, just gettingmyself out of bed was hard, uh,
especially on the on those days.
On the flip side, once, likewhen I crossed the finish line

(28:17):
and I achieved X goal, um, allthe thoughts of like those
mornings and the work you put in, it was like a flow of emotion
right it.
Those are the things that youdon't want to do.
When you do the things youdon't want to do I think you may
have said this when you workreally really hard at something
or maybe maybe it was you, toddwhen you work really really hard

(28:37):
at something and you fail, ithurts more.
But also, if you work reallyreally hard at something, you
succeed.
You kind of embody that more.
So I have had many, many timescommunities been important,
which we've talked about a ton,um, but also like I wanted to
stick to my plan and I didn'twant to.
I didn't want to show up and notbe prepared.
I didn't want to be like, Ididn't want to ask the question

(29:00):
what if?
What?
What?
What if I would have workedharder?
What if I would have ran faster?
What?
What if I would have trainedmore?
So for me it was a, a fear ofnot putting forth the effort to
be the best I could be.
Um.
And that probably came evenmore prevalent in the relay
races, which is why I hate them.
It's like a love hate becauselike, well, if I go out and I

(29:21):
don't hit my goal or I can'tpush through.
It's on me, but like I'mrunning with you guys in a relay
and the whole team's countingon me and if I don't feel like
I'm in the mid to low sixes, I'mnot pulling my weight and I'm
one of the slowest and like thepeer pressure that that puts you
like I've got to work as hardas I possibly can because I want
to be ready, because I don'twant to be the guy.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
So those have been the things that have pushed me,
yeah, I mean mentally.
For me it's being honest withmyself and realizing that
there's a hundred ways that'sgoing to cat.
So you know when it gets boring, um, and it gets long.
You know doing things likerunning all the roads in
Westfield or running all theroads in Carmel.
Uh, you know doing that on myeasy days, going in and
exploring somewhere new.
That's been.
That's been big.
That breaks up the monotony.
You know exploring differenttraining plans and training

(30:13):
strategies.
That's been really cool.
You know uncovering differentthings over the years.
I'm the type of person thatreally enjoys that.
Some people I do know, um, kindof get in a routine and do the
same thing over and over again,and I think that's okay as long
as as they're able to, um,achieve their goals over that
long-term period we're talkingabout.

(30:34):
But you know that's that's beena big thing is is realizing
that, like you don't have to.
Example uh, you, we were inArizona.
I ran a two 48.
I never ran over 15 miles inthat block ever, um, because I
realized through doing someresearch and some guessing and
testing, I don't like 21 milersor 22 milers, so I never ran

(30:54):
more than two hours and itworked.
It worked for me.
You know gamification.
We've talked about a ton.
So one of the things that westarted exploring a couple of
years ago I think the first timeI ever did it was at your house
was measuring lactate.
It sounds kind of insane,pricking your finger and putting
we talked about in a priorepisode right and putting blood
on a stick and getting ameasurement, like you would

(31:16):
measure your blood glucose.
But what it does is it gamifiedit for me so I could see in
real time, okay, at this pacefor this duration, my blood
glucose, or, excuse me, mylactate is here and then, over
time, seeing it drop.
Next time I did that same pacefor that same duration.
Oh, it's lower.
Okay, I'm getting fitter, Iactually can physically see it.

(31:40):
Uh, most recently it's been thisheat training that we've been
exploring, which, um, I won't gointo the science of it, but
it's very similar to acclimatingat altitude, um, and it, it.
It embodies what you were justtalking about, todd.
With everything that I'mdealing with right now, it's not
smart for me to go run on astrained calf, and so I've been
doing incline walking at 4% andwith the heat element and, just

(32:02):
so you understand, that's fourlayers of clothes up top, that's
wearing a stocking cap in anenclosed space with a space
heater on getting your coretemperature up to 102.
Yes, I'm hydrating very wellfor those of you that are
concerned, but I can getthreshold type work doing heat
training at 100, getting myheart rate to mid 140s, low 150s

(32:25):
, getting that same type of workwithout stressing myself
biomechanically.
And finding that solution wasreally exciting and it's helped
If you were to look at thisbuild.
So a standard marathon buildtakes about 16 weeks if you're
fit, 12.
I have Boston five and a halfweeks.
I have been able to do abouttwo weeks of work thus far and

(32:51):
that's been supplemented by thisheat training.
We'll see what happens inBoston, but it's been fun to try
to solve.
This problem is how can I stayfit enough to go to Boston and
qualify for Boston next yearwith all of these things that
are facing me and I can't takethis traditional approach.
So that's been a way that I'vekept it.

(33:11):
Exciting from a mentalperspective is exploring
different training methods,exploring different things
within a training week.
Um, you know, whether it bedoing something on a treadmill,
doing something outside, doingsomething on an indoor track,
doing something on an outdoortrack all of those things, uh,
have have helped me stay umengaged and excited when

(33:34):
pursuing goals.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
And what I hear you saying and a little bit of both
of you, is that you're reallytrying to fight against that
element of delayed gratification, Because the training for a
marathon it is delayedgratification in the worst
possible sense.
I mean you think about whenyou're training for a marathon
and let's just say it's a10-week training plan and you're
running on average 40 miles aweek, putting in 400 to 500

(34:01):
miles and maybe that's averagingnine minutes a mile.
You are out there for anextremely long period of time
with limited positive feedbackloops right, with limited
positive feedback loops, right.
And so what I hear you sayingis trying to inject and almost
implement some feedback loops aspart of that process where you

(34:23):
can get some of thatgratification along the way to
keep you going, whether that'sseeing your lactate threshold
levels drop.
The first thing you said beforewe started this, talking about
the heat training you just hit100% acclimated, so it's like
seeing that percentage go up ofheat acclimation.
How can you find creative ways?
I think that's another thingthat you said.
You've got to be willing to becreative and explore things that

(34:46):
work for you, that allow you toget that feedback throughout
this extremely long, arduousprocess, and I know for me it's
goals.
When I don't have a time goal orany sort of other thing, it's
very hard for me tocontextualize A, whether I'm
even preparing appropriately,and then mentally it's extremely

(35:08):
hard to find a purpose if Idon't.
You know, in the absence ofhaving some sort of goal,
whether that's, you know, aspecific goal or a broader goal
in mind, I actually strugglewith this.
You mentioned pushups.
I started this year doingpushups and pull-ups, so many a
day, and I think it was likeearly February I went like three

(35:31):
or four days without doing mypull-ups and it was like I was
sliding like down fast, like whyam I doing this, why am I doing
pull-ups, and like at thatpoint it was pretty much time to
shut it down for the year.
I was gonna fall right off thecliff, like I have many other
times and I think many of us do,after New Year's resolutions,

(35:53):
right, and I remembered thereason I started doing those was
for the Spartan race that I hadin June.
I had just completely spacedthat, I had registered for that
and I had planned that out andthat brought me right back and I
got right back in the habit.
I did some extras to close upfor those days, and now I've
continued down the habit, but itwas the absence of that purpose

(36:14):
that really eroded.
You know why am I doing this?
And, um, you know, for me soit's a combination of a few
things.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Do you think it's possible to live in maintenance
mode?
No races, no, just maintain.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
It.
It depends what your goal is.
I think, yes, it is, but youwould want to have a strong why
and a goal associated with that,I mean what if your goal was to
look good naked?

Speaker 1 (36:40):
That was it.
I have a friend that actuallysaid that and I thought it was
pretty funny.
It's like what's your goal?
I want to look good without myclothes on.
I'm like okay.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
So that's the starting point, but if you
feasible to just get involved insomething that you just, you do
the same every day and you, youaren't training for a marathon
or half marathon.
Yeah, um, you know, I think youthat goes to being honest with
yourself and surroundingyourself with the right
community.
I mean, I'm going to run forthe rest of my life because

(37:09):
that's what all my friends doand that's where we have our
conversations Like I don't, youknow, I go to dinner every now
and then, right, but like thereit's on the trail as much as I
can.
Obviously it hasn't the lastcouple of months with, with all
the injuries, but that'ssomething that I look forward to
.
I think the other piece of thepuzzle and and I recognize this

(37:29):
when I say being honest, honestwith yourself it's like I know
that it is something I strugglewith heavily because, on one
hand, you know, I have friendsthat will say at some point you
know they have, they haveshifted from racing to running

(37:53):
and they've made that shift andthey've done that for longevity.
And I struggle with the samething.
It's like, well, I'm dealingwith this.
You know, today I told him Iwoke up with tendinitis in my
foot.
It is what it is, we'll getthrough it, but it's like man at
one I do want to be the 70 yearold guy out there doing that
and I don't want to do the 45minutes of physical therapy that

(38:16):
I'm doing every morning rightnow to continue to maintain Um,
maybe I can get away with 15,and you know, running a little
less aggressively will probablyafford me the ability to not do
as much from a physical therapyperspective over a long period
of time.
But at the same time I'm likeman, how long can I hold this,
hold this.
You know like there's guys outthere now in their 50s you're
just starting to see the firstwave, twice all these master's

(38:39):
records falling of people thatbelieve you can actually be
really physically optimized inyour 40s and 50s and even, I
think, until you know early 60slike you can really still throw
down.
Um, old eddie whitlock, rest inpeace broke three in the
marathon at 70, something.
Now again, a lot of times thosepeople start running later in

(39:01):
life.
But point being is like so it'sgoing to be interesting over
the next couple of years to seehow that evolves.
If there is a point in timewhere it's like okay, I'm going
to shift this, it's all going tobe about community, it's going
to be about running with friends.
It's going to be about runningwith friends.
It's going to be about runningwith my daughter.
It's going to be aboutproducing races.
And then, on the other side, youmentioned food and diet, and

(39:22):
for me it's finding somethingthat is sustainable for you, and
that's something I neverthought I'd be able to do,
because we struggle with foodespecially us two like in ways
that most people wouldn'timagine.
I always tell the story thatI'll look back and it's not

(39:43):
perfectly accurate, but it'sdirectionally accurate at the
amount of calories I've burnedover the last 13 years and had I
not been running, I'd weighlike six or 700 pounds, like if
you just take that number andextrapolate it out, um, you know
.
And so I've needed to figureout and I don't know if it was
one of you maybe said it, I'mnot sure I heard it somewhere

(40:07):
for me it's been thisintermittent fasting or not
eating and, like it's, it's justeasier for me to cut out that
meal than to try to utilize mywillpower over four meals a day
or three meals a day, like let'sjust forget about it and then
we'll utilize willpower overthese two meals.
It makes it a little bit easierthat way.
I think you might have said itin relation to your streak Like

(40:30):
just this is what you do iseasier than that.
So you know, I found that thatworks for me and keeping up with
the running works for me and Ithink I can sustain those.
I give myself treats every nowand then, actually probably more
than I should, but you know, Ido think it's possible long-term
.
I've done it for 11 years, 12years, 13 years.

(40:52):
Why stop now?

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, I would say one answer.
My answer to your questionwould be a hundred percent it's.
I think it absolutely ispossible to be in maintenance
mode and I think it's what isyour, what's your goal as a
person, like for us, I would sayrunning is more of a
centerpiece, I would say in thecenterpieces of people's lives.
I think, naturally and I thinkthis might be more of a male

(41:14):
thing frankly, but I've seen itacross the board is, I think, in
your primary centerpiecespeople have a tendency to be a
little more achievement orientedright, and I would say running
for us has been a little more ofa centerpiece and I think in
those areas, especially ifthere's a purpose that you're
tying to that, you probably aregoing to be a little more

(41:34):
achievement-oriented in thatrealm.
However, I think fitness is aperfect thing to also be a
leisure activity or kind of abackground type of activity.
So I talked to my oldest son,noah, about playing sports and
we've talked about thispreviously in Hamilton County.
You choose what sports you wantto play competitively and then

(41:54):
you choose what sports you wantto play leisurely.
So I feel like it's the samething in life.
You can only have so manycenterpieces, right of the
things that you're focusing onand you're going to try and
achieve in, and then you've gotanother set of things in your
life that you want to be youknow more leisurely involved in
and I think for someone who hasother centerpieces which, by the

(42:15):
way, changes throughout thejourney of your life right, you
have young kids versus you'reheavy into business or career I
think it can change over time.
But for someone who is notnecessarily running is not a
centerpiece.
I think maintenance mode ahundred percent is, provided
they value looking good withoutany clothes on or whatever.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Well, what about?
So?
We're talking about thementality side of things.
I know one of the biggestthings for a lot of people and I
struggle with this at times isjust, it feels selfish.
Right, you do have otherpriorities, you are having to
sacrifice and a lot of timesit's at the expense of others
and maybe just in a husband andwife relationship, not even kids

(43:00):
.
It's like well, you have timeto work out.
It would be nice if I had time.
How do you guys like, how doyou guys navigate that
conversation and and thoseemotions, because I imagine a
lot of people watching havethose emotions oh yeah, and
that's funny.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
you bring that up because that's the next topic I
was going to tackle.
You remember the quote that wealways shared between each other
with Arnold If the presidenthas time to work out, you have
time to work out.
If the pope has time to workout, you have time to work out.
And that's true.
It's what do you want tosacrifice to get that done?
And it's how can you work thatinto your life?

(43:39):
Again, if you have other thingsinto your centerpiece?
I mean, I make a game out of it.
I know you seem to do the samething.
It's like all right, I've got30 minutes or I've got 45
minutes.
I mean, if you go look at likerun titles on Garmin for me, I
can't tell you, it happens atleast monthly when I'm running
where I'll run out of time andI'll have to run faster to
finish a thing or whatever toget it in in the allotted time
that I have.
You know I run during lunch alot, so I have like this fixed

(44:00):
window.
You know, could I go a littlebit longer and cut into the
workday?
Sure, but I don't want to makea habit of that, you know, and
so I'll do that and we talked, Ithink, on a prior episode.
Sometimes, when I'm flying outWest and it's a six 30 flight, I
got to get up at four, or youhave to get up at three, 50.
And I I think of it as kind ofa game.
You know, um, and I told mywife this and I and I think this

(44:29):
would hold true is that if I'minto fitness myself and we
talked about long-term goals mylong-term goal and, yes, you're
going to have your naysayers, soyou're going to hit by a gut
bus tomorrow is to keep myphysiology in a place where I
can live until our grandfather'sage, you know, in in our mid
nineties or whatever, um,provided you know, medical care
and whatever stays the same anddoesn't allow us to live until

(44:49):
we're 120, who knows, um, youknow.
So, given that I have thatlong-term goal in mind, I'm
going to support my wife in anyway, shape or form.
Uh, you know, right now Tara ison a walking streak.
She's walked every day sinceDecember 30th a couple, a couple
of miles, and so what I makesure I do is she, she's got a

(45:10):
job that she um works onpatients all day long.
So she's got to get up at 630and she doesn't get home till
430.
So I make sure that I handletaking the kids to and from all
of their afterschool activitiesso that she can get her walk in,
or I'll take the kids afterdinner's over, which it's
getting late.
I'll take the kids and makesure that they're achieving what

(45:32):
they need to achieve, whetherthat's homework or taking a
shower or getting ready for bedwhile she does her walk.
So you know she's had to makethe decision.
Am I going to get up at four inthe morning or five in the
morning and do my walk beforework?
No, I don't want to do that.
I love sleep.
Anybody who knows my wife knowsshe loves sleep more than
anybody else on the planet, um,but so yeah, it's it's.

(45:54):
I'm going to have to sacrificegetting on the treadmill at
seven o'clock, which isn't PM,which isn't always fun.
But you know, as somebody whohas got the same fitness goals,
I have to respect that.
And she's just got to make um,she's got to pick the time, you
know, and I'll support it in anyway I can.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
Yeah, I would say both and uh, in any way I can.
Yeah, I would say both, andJenna and I have kind of
discussed this at length and I'mwilling to move around whatever
I need to move around to makesure she has the time to
exercise whenever she wants to.
I think, culturally, we suffera lot more from people not being

(46:35):
selfish enough, frankly, interms of taking care of
themselves.
I would say that's much more ofthe issue culturally than
people being overly selfish, atleast in terms of taking care of
themselves, in terms of whetherthat's recovery-type things,
massages, or getting spacementally or exercising or those

(46:56):
sorts of things.
I think we suffer from peoplenot prioritizing themselves
enough, and then that boils intoother areas of our lives, right
, our level of frustrationversus our level of patience.
I think my personal opinion isthere's certainly a level of
diminishing returns, but forevery hour you spend on yourself

(47:19):
on a daily basis, the return isprobably 2x in terms of the
quality of the other activitiesin your life.
That's not backed bysubstantial evidence, but I
would be willing to stand behindthat in my personal experience.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
I think this dovetails perfectly into
recovery, and I'd love for youto talk about this, because
you've talked about react,because recovery is like
self-care, right, and you'vetalked about how you know,
looking at different metrics viayour aura ring or when you wore
your band prior, really gaveyou insight into things you

(47:54):
could do to better recover, andI think that you know we do
things to please other peoplethat could impact something like
recovery.
For instance, as somebody who,for whatever reason, this year I
just decided to stop drinking.
You know completely, I drinkvery rarely, which is crazy,
because I used to drink sevennights a week when I was running

(48:16):
nightclubs and then it dwindleddown to probably a dozen times
or less last year, and now it'sjust like whatever, I'll have an
NA beer or something like that,but point being is, we'll go
out and to make someone elsefeel comfortable or to not feel
awkward, we'll have a drink,like I don't want this situation
to be awkward.
Somebody told me once uh isthat I don't trust people that

(48:36):
don't drink, and that is aninteresting statement, um, but
it's kind of stuck with me.
So I was like, oh, I'll have adrink, cause I don't want to be
the weird guy and I don't wantto.
You know, I want to make sureI'm there for the cheers or
whatever, um, so I'm patronizingthem, if you will, at the
detriment to myself.
And I think we see other people.

(48:58):
I've got friends and familythat maybe they don't track that
types of thing, that type ofthing, and it results in them
not spending the necessary.
Oh I'm sick, oh I'm tired.
And I'm not saying that, youknow, I know my tone was a
little off there, I'm not sayingthat in a manner that's
degrading, I'm just saying youknow, I know you said that your
eyes were kind of opened whenyou started to look at the

(49:19):
metrics as to what you needed todo for self-care.
So I'd be interested to hear alittle bit more about that
revelation.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yeah.
So I started several years agowearing the Woot Band and just
kind of watching the data and Ithink you wake up and you feel
kind of how you feel.
But when you look at data itsubstantiates.
And one of the things I lovedabout whoop at the time and
still think it's a great featureis the journaling feature, and

(49:48):
so I started to pay attentionright, because your scores don't
lie right.
It'll tell you in the morningwhat your HRV is.
It'll tell you what yourresting heart rate was.
It'll give you some keycomponents and you start to see
trends over time.
And then I was able to associatecertain habits and you could,
and then they would extrapolatethat over months.
So I could see on the nightsthat I drink alcohol that my

(50:13):
recovery was a negative 8.5% andit would put in a percentage
and of course you feel that whenyou wake up.
But now you have this, myrecovery was I've got a good
friend that every time I hangout with them I call it the
James effect my recovery is red.
I don't know why.
I do know why, but like so ithelped me understand patterns

(50:34):
and it helped me understand whatthings were causing and they
weren't rocket science.
It's like look, if I eat late,you know your body needs time,
like if you're eating afterreally eight o'clock and you're,
I mean it depends when you goto bed.
But your body, if you stopeating at dinner, let's say six
o'clock, your body spends somuch energy digesting food all
day long.
If you stop at six and it has ayou know two, three, four hours

(50:58):
to start digesting food by thetime you go to bed, your body
can start repairing itself andnot digesting food.
Shocker, right, but I mean it's, it's common sense stuff, but
when you put numbers to it it'simportant.
And then I switched to the auraring and it's very similar.
It's like when I wake up how Ifeel although I just got back
from high altitude and it'sincredible what being at

(51:19):
altitude does to you my restingheart rate's generally 45 to 50.
Out there it's 58 to 62.
And my blood oxygen is 99.
Here Out there when I got thereit was 94.
And I was like lightheaded andI'm in pretty good shape and I
had to get on like an oxygenconcentrator just to kind of get
get myself up.
But like there's no way I'mdrinking alcohol when I'm up at

(51:41):
those altitudes, cause I knowI'll be destroyed.
So for me it.
I think that the important partof it is you should rest.
You do need recovery.
You need it also measures yourREM sleep.
It measures your, your deepsleep, and it's super important
to have those because I thinkyou said it, you don't know how

(52:01):
good you feel until you, youknow you actually get there.
And so I would say recovery forme has been one of the most
important parts.
I try to get to where I'm inbed eight to eight and a half
hours, and generally the sleeptime is seven to seven and a
half, and making sure that I'mgetting deep and rim and so
forth and so on.
So it's been an incredible tool.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
You said something there that I think was important
, which is really seeing thenumbers and actually
experiencing it I think justbrings a whole new level of
wisdom and things that you'rewilling to put into practice.
Because, I don't know, maybethis is egotistical for me, but
it seems like there's so many ofthose old wives tales out there
about different health types ofthings, and I have always been

(52:45):
one that's like I'll believe itwhen I see it kind of thing
right, and we've talked, we'vedebunked several of them, and
one of them for the longest timeI kind of thought was eating
late, like I can fall asleepafter eating a bowl of Raisin
Bran cereal.
I like to eat it late at night,9 pm, and it's got a ton of
sugar, and I thought you know,as I said, don't eat late.
You have trouble falling asleep, or whatever.

(53:06):
I could fall asleep.
The problem was I wasn'tgetting enough deep and REM
sleep because my body was stilldigesting food and it wasn't
able to get in the deep and REMsleep.
And so what's interesting is,having done the whoop band and
the aura ring as well, like Istarted to see those metrics.
You can see how much timeyou're spending in deep and REM
sleep and then you're able tosee your metrics and your

(53:27):
recovery and it just, like it,paints a whole new picture.
I just I've started out sopessimistic with some of those
things and when you experienceit and you see it in the same
thing with alcohol, it's like no, this is very real stuff, and
my ability to stay rested also.
I mean, for me, I will I don'tknow how you guys feel like
speak to this.

(53:48):
I wanted to come back to sleep.
Talk about another underratedthing, right, you know you want
to talk about return on yourproductivity.
Now, I know some people havedifferent thresholds for sleep
and they can operate on sixhours or seven hours.
I know we all have differentthresholds there.

(54:08):
I will say for me personally,even upwards of eight to nine
hours of sleep, if I am sleepingwell and I'm exercising, I
don't get sick and that willchange.
Like my immune system,obviously, is going to continue
to go down over time.
But with a household of peoplearound me who are fighting
something, I might get a littlebit of a tickle in my throat, I

(54:30):
might wake up with mytemperature feeling a little off
, but like there's nothing thatimpacts my day to day when I'm
doing those sorts of things.
And so that's the things I thinkcan creep up on you when you
think about oh, I don't havetime to work out, I don't have
time to get an extra 30, 45minutes, an extra hour of sleep,
but you got time to be down andout for a week when you get the
flu, and you got time to be,you know, kind of at half

(54:53):
capacity when you get a bad coldand you can't operate.
You've got no choice.
And so for some of this, Ithink taking care of yourself
not only actually evens itselfout through your overall
productivity on a day-to-daybasis, but I think you just feel
better as well.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Yeah, I mean you're right In terms of getting sick.
I think we're all nodding ourheads there.
It's rare, very rare.
You know, every now and thenyou'll catch a severe flu bug,
but it's a quick recovery.
You know, even when you'revomiting, it's a day.
You're back the next day.
You're not down for a week andI see a lot of people out there
that are constantly sick.

(55:34):
It's like every other week it'sa cold, it's a headache, it's a
migraine, and look again, youknow, I want to be, I want to be
conscious, conscious of thefact that we're not saying you
know, I mean, if you put intopractice everything that, like a
Huberman does and I was talkingto a friend who has a buddy
who's doing this kind of thingyeah, it could be a lot like no

(56:00):
certain types of light.
After you know, I mean, thisparticular person uses candles
for like 7 pm because they don'twant particular types of light.
And then you're getting yourson first thing in the morning
to set your circadian rhythm and, like you know, I guess you
have to kind of look at what isthe best return on investment
for you.
I think sleep is one of thosehuge factors that you really

(56:21):
need, but you really need totake into consideration.
But you don't need to live likethat and I think it's important
to recognize that.
You know, I think you you talkabout it a lot there's an
objective study on differentdrugs and like where they rank
in terms of harm to the body,and I think, if memory serves me

(56:43):
, alcohol is right behindcocaine or something like that.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
It's ahead of it.
It's ahead of it.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Yeah, it's number one on the list.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
And you listen to a lot of different doctors out
there, people in the medicalfield that gets brought up a lot
.
There's so much content outthere.
Again, we're not saying thatyou need to live the life of a
monk where you sleep 10 hours anight and you never do anything
fun.
But with the advent of moreinformation coming out, you're

(57:11):
seeing the younger generationshy away from alcohol.
You're seeing a lot of likealcohol alternatives, like kava
based drinks that will give youa feeling.
It's a little, it's somewhateuphoric.
Um, you know, a lot of times ittakes time to adapt to those
things and there's a there's aperiod of time before they start
to work for you.
But there's all thesealternatives out there now.
But you know, realize thatyou're kind of doing this to

(57:36):
yourself and I think you said itkind of creeps up on you
because in your 20s you canright, you can do that, you can
go have.
The last time that I was likeobliterated drunk was in 2014.
And I can remember prior tothat, um, I think I may have

(57:59):
told this story.
If you go back and you look atmy the very beginning of my
Instagram, it's pictures ofvodka, red Bulls, and it was
when I was in nightlife and Iwas drinking seven days a week
and that that night I had had 21vodka, red Bulls, um, over a
period of I think we starteddrinking at like 3 PM and
finished it, so it was over like10 hours.
Uh, still, you know, two tothree drinks an hour and that

(58:21):
much caffeine is prettydangerous.
But I, you know, I do rememberbeing able to function
relatively Okay the next, youknow, maybe the second day after
that.
Um, if I did that now I'd bedead after that.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Um, if I did that now I'd be dead, um.
But you know, you get used toit and your body adapts.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Your body adapts and it's kind of like the rheumatoid
arthritis, right, it's like Ididn't know because it snuck up
on me.
And then when I took somethingthat alleviated that that pain,
it was like, oh my god, this gotreally, really bad.
And I didn't know.
And I think you drinkconsistently enough over time.
It just slowly creeps in there,that's with anything.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
I mean, I would say one of the biggest sneaky ones
is caffeine.
Like, I got addicted tocaffeine and it was one of those
where I was drinking caffeine.
I was having coffee, one coffee, I was having one, two and
three different cups of coffeeand it just kept building.
And I'm on these rollercoasters all day and then I have
headaches and then it's adiuretic and I'm using the

(59:21):
restroom a lot.
And caffeine is one of thosewhere you can adjust to it and I
think you can do a lot of it.
Your body morphs and you'relike oh, this is how I feel
every day when I eat this ordrink this, and then it becomes
the new norm and you don't knowhow good you could feel without
it.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
That is the blessing and the curse of the human body.
It is, as that's one of thethings and maybe I mentioned
this in a prior episode, butthis is one of the things that I
have been blown away by,probably more so than anything
in my fitness journey is theadaptability and the
sophistication of the human body.
I mean the way it adapts andthe way that it allows us to

(01:00:00):
push ourselves and to achieve.
I mean, it is just absolutelyremarkable.
The problem is it adapts sowell that it masks horrible
habits and not that caffeine isa horrible habit I'm just
talking about.
Like, if you sleep six hours,five, six hours a day, it will
adjust and find a way for you tobe able to operate on that
hours a day.
It will adjust and find a wayfor you to be able to operate on
that Now, depending on, again,your overall disposition,

(01:00:22):
hereditary and overall kind ofmakeup that may or may not be
doing a lot of long-term damagethat your body is just
compensating for.
You know I think we've talkedabout this a little bit with mom
Mom ran really hard for a verylong period of time.

(01:00:42):
I mean, you know she would goto bed late 11, 1130, and she
would wake up at 435.
And she did that for years andyears and years and years, and I
think we all, at differenttimes, have wondered, like if
that had anything to do andmaybe not right.
We're, we're not doctors, thisis not medical advice or
anything, but I think all of ushave kind of paused at times to

(01:01:04):
wonder did that accelerate someof the wear and tear over time
that her body was able tocompensate for?
But yeah, to me that that's thechallenge of the human body.
It is so good that it allows usto do things that are not great
for us, and it masks it verywell.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
It's really fascinating because a lot of
times the things that hurtrecovery, sometimes they're
selfish things, but a lot oftimes those are self-sacrifices
for others.
When I think about mom, what youjust said, like mom ran that
schedule for us and so I findI'm willing to sacrifice
personally health and wellbeingfor my kids and for my spouse,

(01:01:45):
and just those are things.
You can really apply that toany category in my life.
It's like I don't spend a tonof stuff for me but like I'll
buy my kids stuff, right.
So I think there's there's acomponent of that where, when
you talk about being selfish ornot being selfish enough, like
the stage of life I'm in, it'shard to commit to training for a

(01:02:07):
race right now.
Like do I want to spend mySaturday mornings traveling to
volleyball or soccer or do Iwant to spend them getting up at
4am to run a 12 mile run to getthat in before we leave?
Like it's not as important tome right now, at the phase of
life that I'm in, to be trainingfor races to putting in 60, 70
mile weeks.
So that's why I do 25 to 30.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
I think you've.
But you found the balance, likeyou said 25 to 30, which I
think is like I don't know ifI'd use the seeing the forest
through the trees, but it's like.
It's like you know, racking upcredit card debt, so your kids
are happy knowing that a coupleof years from now you're going
to file bankruptcy and you guysmay be, you know, lose, may lose
a house, and so it's like youknow.
But I think we see that it'slike because we all I think we

(01:02:51):
all would share the same likewe'll make massive sacrifices
for our kids in terms of ourtime.
But if we're like, oh, you know, I can't do it because my kids
have sports, it's like, look,man, you've got three kids,
you've got four, I've got three.
All of them are in crazyamounts.
We feel your pain but saying Ican't do it because you know I'm

(01:03:15):
going to be raising kids thenext 17 years and then, all of a
sudden, your life is 20 yearsshorter and you don't get to
help them through raising theirown kids and you don't get to
see their grandkids.
Because you didn't find thebalance like you have, you went
to 30.
Awesome, you didn't go to zeroand so you've been able to kind
of work that in there and stillmaintain a little bit of it, and

(01:03:36):
so I think that's important tokind of call out is man there?
And it's interesting Likethere's always something around.
There's always an excuse.
And I'm not saying we facedevery problem in the world.
We haven't.
You know, in a lot of instanceswe're very privileged but at
the same time we all have thingsthat pull our time.

(01:03:57):
We all have.
You know, we can all justifywhatever we want to justify.
Oh, I've had a hard day.
You know, a drink would begreat.
Or you know I need to stay up.
I mean things as trivial.
As you know.
Two nights ago I wanted to stayup and see if I won my fantasy

(01:04:18):
game for the week.
That's why I stayed up till1230 to do so.
That was selfish on my behalf.
Did you win?
Yes, I did.
But, anyways, I wanted to callout that you know finding
balance instead of just saying,ah, forget it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
I think that's huge.
There is a level of diminishingreturns, as we've talked about
with everything, and I thinkyou're spending 30, whatever 45
minutes a day taking care ofthat versus zero, which is, I
think, the difference in youspending 45 minutes and someone
else spending an hour and 45minutes.
I don't think from their dailyproductivity there's going to be

(01:04:55):
a whole lot of additionalreturn coming in that additional
hour.
You've decided that running atthis point is not a centerpiece,
right, and I think that'sperfectly thing.
I wanted to go back to mom fora second.
This comes back to just mentalmotivation stuff.
For those that don't know Idon't know that everyone knows
she.
She passed away little over twoyears ago of a disease called

(01:05:16):
MSA, which stands for multiplesystem atrophy, systems atrophy,
yeah, which to me I don't knowwhy this is a little bit of a
side note, it feels like Acatch-all yeah.
Everything's shutting down andwe don't know why, which I think
is kind of accurate.
It's like colic yeah, it'scrying, the baby's crying.
Anyways, what I think we hadthe benefit of is a gratitude

(01:05:43):
for being able to move, becauseshe could not move for the last
two years of her life, right anduh.
So I think, mentally, when wetalk about struggle and like
being in these, these painfultraining cycles, there is it's
all up here, right.
We all know that, everyoneknows that it's all mental,
taking the time to justappreciate the ability to move,
the ability to be out, there issomething that is a gift that

(01:06:07):
she inevitably gave to usthrough that journey.
I would also say, from amotivation perspective, I was
sitting in the doctor's officethe other day and he was like
how do you guys eat?
And I was like well, generallyit's pre-processed stuff.
You know, we're in a hurry, wegot to do this, we got to do
that, and the same thing withrunning, by the way.
So there are areas of our lifewhere we do fit the right stuff
in.
There are areas of our lifewhere we don't.

(01:06:34):
And food, you know, we got allthe answers.
Like you know, maybe fitness,we've obviously leaned into that
a little bit from a foodperspective.
No, uh, I can tell you and I'lljust speak for my family Like
we're heating stuff up, it'schicken nuggets, I'm eating
raisin bran cereal, we'rethrowing things in the microwave
and and that is.
We just basically continued tomake excuses that we're too busy

(01:06:55):
to cook good meals.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
You know that leads perfectly into a thought I was
just having around how to chunkstuff up and accomplish things
one bit at a time.
Because if you look ateverything out there I was
talking about the guy thatcarries candles around at seven
o'clock there's so much,especially when you talk about
food.
There's the dyes, thateverybody's red dye, red 21 or
whatever it's called there's theprocessed food.
There's the extra sugar.
There's all of these things.
It applies to running.

(01:07:23):
You don't have to run 70 milesa week, chunking it up and
getting their sleep, chunking itup and getting there, because
if you try to implement all ofthese things at once, you're
eating right, you're exercisingcorrectly, you're exercising
correctly, you're sleeping well,you're recovering well, you're
not drinking.
It's like oh, my goodness.
So I guess it'd be interestingto hear from and I think you
have something to say on this.

(01:07:44):
It'd be interesting to hear,like okay, this is how we
approached it, one step at atime, because we're just as
guilty.
Dad, I want to go to McDonald's.
Well, okay, if mom's going toget a workout, and I'm going to
get my way.
You know, and we do that a lotof times and um, and you have to
give in some areas.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
I mean you can't, you can't do it all.
I just wanted to circle backand kind of close the loop on
that is one of the things thedoctor said was I get it, it's
tough, but know that the foodhabits that you are exemplifying
right now your kids are payingattention to and that's how
they're going to eat when theyget older, and that, to me, kind
of lit a new fire under me interms of eating right and and
what I was going to go back tocircle back to mom again is the

(01:08:26):
example she set fitness wise.
She walked three miles everyday religiously, and I think
that is something that was aseed that was planted in us in
terms of long-term fitness.
So, for those that are takingcare of themselves and this
doesn't necessarily apply to anintense training block of a
marathon, necessarily, but no tothe fitness habits that you're

(01:08:48):
able to set are also beingwatched, exemplified, and the
odds of your kids taking care ofthemselves in a similar way go
up exponentially.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
Uh, if it's something that, if it's a habit that they
see you practicing over a longperiod of time, the goal is
longevity of health right wetalk about longevity of life,
but longevity of health is theimportant part, and I, when I,
when you talk about mom and herwalking, and I think we just
didn't understand it back thenshe's like I had no idea.
Her, the girls.
That was their time to gossipand talk about what's going on

(01:09:18):
and like now, like that is sucha huge part.
It's not the runs, it's the,it's the companionship, it's the
conversations and that,thinking back now in her
thirties and forties when shewas going through that, she was
doing the same exact thing thatwe're doing from that, but it's
trying to get the longevity ofhealth.
But in mom's case she did a lotof the things right and she got
a bad.
You know she, she passed awayat 70 and she did all the right

(01:09:45):
things.
So there's no solution that'sgoing to guarantee you longevity
of health.
You're playing the odds andyou're trying to find ways to do
it.
My situation on the food's alittle bit different.
My wife has.
She comes from a long line ofof farming family and she's an
excellent cook.
She is huge.
She does a ton of research onthe processed food.
She gets to stay at home andmake this a big focus, but she

(01:10:10):
is all about cooking naturalfoods.
We first started.
The easy button was to try oneof those services where they
deliver the healthy foods.
I'm pretty sure we tried themall over time.
Um, that's kind of our rmo andthen she just like she listens
to things and we joke because,like you said, there's so many
things.
It's like you know she's gonnakill me for this.

(01:10:32):
But like she changed hertoothpaste and I'm not willing
to change it and, like you know,the regular crest or whatever
has fluoride in it and I'm likethe ongoing joke is, everything
causes cancer, like everythingthat I currently do.
Everything that I want to do iscausing cancer and every time
it's like but she's makingsubtle shifts and things in my
life and the kids lives thatwe're probably going to thank

(01:10:53):
her for later.
It's, it's, it's that we'reprobably going to thank her for
later.
It's fun now to give her a hardtime, but she cooks with
natural food.
She makes meals.
I have a home-cooked meal everysingle night that's not
processed and she's reallytrying to drive it home with the
kids because we were doing alot of the processed stuff and
we still do.
Like the kids still want to goget chicken nuggets and things
like that, but we'll do homemadestuff and so you almost have to

(01:11:16):
have a full-time person Ifyou're going to try to eat
naturally and cook it's.
It is like I would say thatcommitment is probably three X
the fitness commitment,especially if you, if you have a
family, um so, and it's.
It's so counter intuitive towhat we see and how people tell
you you should live your life.
It's convenience, it's fastfood, to what we see and how
people tell you you should liveyour life.
It's convenience, it's fastfood, it's I mean, I think

(01:11:39):
talking to a local owner of afast food restaurant and 75% of
their purchases are through thedrive-thru, like everyone wants
it delivered, they want it thereand it's massively processed.
And I think we're going to find, with RFK and the and office,
that there's going to be a lotof changes around that, because
it is hard to sustain a healthylifestyle when we're consuming

(01:12:01):
food that way.

Speaker 3 (01:12:02):
I want to come back to something you said, tj, I
think super important, which isthe chunking, and we talked
about this with running in oneof our earlier episodes, and we
talked about atomic habits andlike just wake up at 6am and put
on your workout clothes andthen just literally drive to the
gym and then just drive home,don't do anything Chunking.
So this is something I'm trying.

(01:12:23):
We'll see how it works.
One of the things I've set agoal for this year is to make
four meals with the boys, likefrom scratch.
Four meals we're talking onceevery three months.
This is it when we're talkingabout.
Chunking is the very bareminimum.
So the first thing that we madewas these sweet potato nuggets,
which is a good vegetable, andI'll tell you what shocked me

(01:12:50):
how long it takes sweet potatoesto soften.
I put them in.
The recipe said it took likesix minutes and you put this
thing of water and you put themin and after you peel them or
whatever, and then apparently Ididn't dice them up small enough
but I had to put these thingsin the microwave for like 35
minutes, you know, over, likeyou know, trying to finally get
them to mash as a whole.
nother animal, some peopleprobably find humor in that, but

(01:13:13):
so we finally got them mashedenough and you did the
breadcrumbs and whatever.
We made this and the next thingwe're going to make.
The boys want to makequesadillas, which isn't super
difficult, but we're going totry and make the tortillas from
scratch, just to like to startthe learning process Very, very
small.
I think chunking it out isextremely important.
But I wanted to come back toyou guys with a question.

(01:13:34):
We've we've kind of gone allover the place mentally and
physically in terms of but whatwould you say the pillars are?
If you're talking about thepillars of recovery, right, Some
people would say, I mean, Ijust wrote down food, sleep,
hydration.
We haven't really talked aboutexercise.
For you guys, what are thethree to five pillars of kind of

(01:13:55):
overall wellbeing, recoveryelements?

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
For me and this has happened over time because these
are things I thought I couldnever tackle.
I never thought I'd figure outdiet, I mean maintaining this
weight over the last 13 years.
For the first, probably eightyears of that it was I ran to
eat you know, we've talked aboutit right Sleeves of Girl Scout
cookies.
One of my kids wanted GirlScout cookies on Friday.
I'm like no, they cannot comein the house because it's a wrap

(01:14:21):
.
So I would say that for me, foodis a big one and I'm still
learning every day.
So eating healthy is a big one.
Exercise is a big one, sleep isa big one, and then I guess it
also falls into diet, but it'ssubstances and trying to be and

(01:14:47):
I don't want to come off as,because I'm not necessarily a
quote sober person I didn't dothis because I have a problem,
at least I don't think I do, butyou know I would say those are
the big three for me is physicalexercise, getting enough sleep
I try to be in bed by nineo'clock and eating as good as I

(01:15:13):
can.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
I was asking myself a question.
I was on vacation a couple ofweeks ago and I said what?
And I was talking to my wifeabout this and I said what
things does a day have toinclude for you to just have an
awesome day, to where you feellike?
And so I'm going to answer itfrom that point of view.
For me to feel like, I've, likeI don't know I don't want to
use the word happiness or joy,but if I have good sleep, I get

(01:15:41):
my exercise in, I have a problemto solve or some type of
challenging mental thing that Ican, where I feel like I've
solved something or I've addedvalue to someone.
Those almost have to happenfirst, and then I can relax and
lean into family time, which Ialso want to enjoy, spending

(01:16:02):
time with my kids and kind ofhaving some.
But if I have to get physicalfitness in, I've got to solve a
problem, I've got to get goodsleep, and food plays a
component, one of the things wehaven't talked about.
But they're finding that whatyou eat actually affects your
emotions, especially in kids.
It affects so many things.
So I think that when we were inthe Dominican, the food we ate

(01:16:22):
there was so clean.
We all felt so good.
It was just incredible.
So those are things.
When I look up every day, if Icheck all those boxes, I'm
feeling pretty good.

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):
Yeah, clearly I'm glad you kind of framed it that
way, because clearly I thinkwe've kind of blended well-being
and recovery in this discussion.
But yeah, I think the onlything for me and some of this
just relates to my goals, Ithink also spending some time
spiritually, I find, andwhatever that is for different
people.
I think mentally also helps.

(01:16:55):
But I think you guys have hiton the the important things you
know from a recovery perspective.
Um, sleep is is just soimportant.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
Huge yeah it is.

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
I think so hard you know in.

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
in terms of the whole wrapping up and kind of going
back to the points, I'd love toask that same question as it
relates to staying motivated andgetting it dialed in and
keeping in maintenance mode interms of pillars, you know, like
, what are the things that?
What are the mantras, what arethese strategies?
If you just had to summarizethem for each of you in regard

(01:17:33):
to staying motivated and stayingthe path on this long-term
journey, Well, when it comes tofood, none is easier than some
for me.

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
So, like Lent, no sweets.
So much easier than like I'mjust going to have a cookie,
right.
So that's kind of a mantra forme.
And then, when it comes toexercise, it's all about
community.
That's kind of a mantra for me.
And then, when it comes toexercise, it's all about
community.
Gamification and community areby far the cornerstones for long
.
I think those are the long,those from a longevity

(01:18:08):
standpoint, consistency,consistency standpoint,
gamification and community arethe two most important things.
If you want to do anythinglong-term, you need community
and gamification forsustainability.
My opinion Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
You know, one of the things we haven't talked about
that I just wanted to add and Iwanted to get your guys' take on
real quick before I jump in onthose is you know we talked
about not doing it all right andhow difficult it is to do it
all to be good on the sleep andbe good on the exercise and be
good on the food.
I've also found at times thosethings can compound and actually
build momentum in a positiveway, like when you have a good

(01:18:47):
run then you want to eat goodafter that because you don't
want to just ruin that goodworkout you have.
Or if you eat really well, youwant to work out on top of that
to build that.
Talk about that.
Have you guys experienced thatat all in terms of doing
something positive in one areaof your life, building momentum
for some of the others?

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
Yeah, I would say that I'm at a point now in my
fitness journey that I neverthought I'd be at.
In one of the earlier episodesI think we talked about balance
and doing what it takes.
Like you said, right now is notthe time of your life to train
for a race, and so it's like youknow, you start years and years
ago and it's also relates tochunking it up and you're like,
okay, you know, man, 40 miles aweek is a ton.

(01:19:28):
I'm just going to do this, I'mgoing to eat what I want because
I'm, because I'm running andyou know I'll have drinks at
night, I have to travel for workand host customers and all
these things, and I'm just goingto live life as normal.
There's no way I'm ever goingto not do this during a training
block, et cetera, et cetera.
But I think over time, as yourcontext changes and you build
context, it's like for me it'sbeen more macro, so it's been

(01:19:59):
more okay, I've kind of got thisfitness thing mastered.
I can fit in 60 miles a week,stay relatively healthy.
Do you know the most intensiveworkouts?
I've kind of got this mastered.
What's next, you know?
And then next for me was let'sadjust the sleep a little bit,
because I'm burning the candleat both ends.
And then, okay, I've got tosleep down.
Now I don't feel bad going tobed at nine o'clock.

(01:20:20):
And then the next step was okay, food, all right, same with you
.
None is better than some.
So let's try this intermittentfasting.
Oh, this actually works for me,versus one month doing nothing
and then having it come back 2Xthe next month.
You know no sweets, and thenthe next month you know no

(01:20:42):
sweets, and then the next monthI'm eating twice as much.
So then that was the next step.
And then it was like man, I'llnever do physical therapy.
There's no way I can do, um,any PT because it's so boring
and so monotonous.
But I found myself because Iwant to continue running at a
competitive level doing a littlebit more of that.
So it's over time, as Iaccomplished different things
and feel like I'm, uh, satisfiedwith that particular area of
life.
And next will be, especiallywith my condition.
The Mediterranean diet issupposed to be good for

(01:21:02):
rheumatoid arthritis, so nextit's going to be okay.
We're not going to do as muchprocessed food.
We're going to focus on fish,we're going to focus on other
types of carbohydrates andthings like that.
So it'll be that, but it's overtime accomplishing each of
these areas to get to theultimate goal.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
I will just hit my mantras or my, and I think
there's kind of two major themestoday, in addition to overall
wellbeing.
I've kind of categorized theseinto recovery and motivation.
So from a motivationperspective, to me the three is
three Gs goals, gratitude andgamification.
So for motivation, it's havingsomething out there that you're
shooting for, having thatgratitude that you have the

(01:21:47):
ability to do it and mentally bewilling to spend time there to
sit in that.
And then the gamification,which goes back to what you said
building that positive feedbackloop in there.
So when you have long periodsof delayed gratification, you've
got things to kind of keep yougoing along the way.
From a recovery perspective,sleep, space and schedule.
So sleep, we've talked aboutthat several times.

(01:22:08):
I just think it's reallyunderrated.
Space, I think mental space intoday's day and age there's so
much noise and so muchdistraction Finding some time
just space, whether it's doingnothing, this is a thing and a
lot of people don't know.
This wall staring, wall staringis a thing now to desensitize
to dopamine.
And I'm not saying you've gotto wall stare, but you don't.
I mean just.

(01:22:28):
And when I say space, thisisn't space to go veg out on
Netflix or something else.
We're talking space, I thinkmentally is just so important.
And then last is schedule.
If you don't schedule recovery,it's not going to happen.
It is the last thing on thepriority list is one of those
things that is as important butit's not urgent.
We have so many urgent thingsthat are pressing for our time.

(01:22:49):
The important things will nothappen if they don't get
scheduled.
So for me, sleep space andschedule your recovery.

Speaker 2 (01:22:56):
I would say to for my motivation.
The last three would be goals,gamification and exploration.
I think a lot of times you guyshave spoke at length about
goals and gamification, but froman exploration standpoint and I
struggle with this like yousaid, hey, are we going to sign
up for, uh, you know, theSpartan race?
And in my mind I'm like hell,no, and I didn't, um, because

(01:23:19):
I'm fear there.
You know, there's so much of myidentity tied up in other
things.
Um, you know, I've thoughtabout doing high rocks and some
of these other different, youknow.
But there's this.
You know, we're wired we'vetalked about this in prior
episodes to one to be excellent,and there are people like that
that, just if they know they're,you know, somebody said this
about Michael Jordan.
I was listening to this theother day.
They're like if he wasn't good,if he didn't know he could beat
you, he wouldn't play the mostcompetitive guy, he just

(01:23:40):
wouldn't do it.
And so it's like I don't knowif I want to put myself out
there at a Spartan race, becauseI'm used to being in the top 1%
or top 5% of whatever I'm doingno-transcript, the running

(01:24:24):
umbrella.
But that exploration for mereally keeps things fun because
there's always something new.
You haven't done that you couldturn over and that you never
thought you could do or neverthought you would do.
So I would encourageexploration on top of those
other things.

Speaker 1 (01:24:41):
I think you guys nailed it.
So I hope you guys found somereally good stuff.
Recovery, super importantMotivation, how to keep going
these are some of the ways thatwe've continued to keep going
over time and hopefully some ofthat resonates with you.
I am going to challenge TJ toput together some stuff, maybe
just a couple of things that wecan get out that you're looking

(01:25:03):
for a place to start.
Maybe you don't have acommunity or you don't know how
to gamify.
You're like I just need alittle bit of an on-ramp.
We'll try to put something toget together for you and get it
out there as well.
So thanks for tuning in.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 10: Beyond the Starting Line: Maintaining Momentum When Motivation Fades

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Episode 10: Beyond the Starting Line: Maintaining Momentum When Motivation Fades

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