🎙️Episode 11: Nature vs. Nurture: A Family's Journey Through ADHD, Academics, and Finding Purpose

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Daily Edge, where we bring you the
latest insights, opinions andthought-provoking conversations
to give you that competitiveedge in life, business and
beyond.
Let's go, welcome back to theDaily Edge, episode 11.
Today we are going to talk alittle bit about how we were

(00:26):
raised.
There are obviously three boys.
There's birth order differences.
You know, when you parent kidsand all of us have kids you
realize they're just sodifferent, right?
You're like, well, I parentedthem all the same.
Well, kind of right.
I think there's some learningalong the way, and so we thought
it would be fun to kind ofshare some stories, how we grew

(00:46):
up, the things we were exposedto.
So, yeah, let's just kick itoff.
Tj, you're the oldest.
I'm going to let you kind ofmaybe dive into a little bit and
we'll go from there.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, I think maybe this could help parents, because
I think one of the things thathas become with me, one of the
things that's become veryprevalent in today's society and
you hear it talked aboutactually politically is the
prevalence of ADHD and thatseems to be a pretty common
diagnosis today, amongst evenadults really.
So I think you know, to startwith me, that was something that

(01:21):
our mother had to figure outand this is going to be I'm just
going to kind of call it how Isee it I was severely ADHD.
I was on Ritalin in 1986.
Like that wasn't prescribedmuch.
I was on Prozac in high schoolVeritable zombie when I took my

(01:44):
medicine because it was sodifficult to control and it was
very interesting how our parentsdealt with that and how
ultimately it helped me buildlife skills.
I think, you know, I thinkthat's something that's very
unique is that as long as youknow the intention is good, I
think, from the parent, as longas you have the eye on the, your

(02:08):
eye on the prize and you'reconsistent and you're
reinforcing the right morals andvalues, the child will learn to
harness things that may beinitially looked at as
weaknesses and that areultimately strengths when you
get there.
So for me, you know, I think Icould go in depth.

(02:28):
We've got plenty of time here.
These podcasts aren't short, soI'll talk a little bit more
about my early journey and thenwe can kind of shift.
Um, but when I was young, uh, Istruggled again mightily.
The stories of mom spending twoto three hours a night with me
on homework in third gradebecause I just couldn't sit down
and focus are numerous and Iremember those just sitting
there at the counter in thekitchen and writing out my

(02:52):
assignments longhand and ittaking absolutely forever,
because every 30 seconds I hadmyself focused on something
different.
And then as I grew up, and thenas I grew up, you know, I would
come to her in classroomsituations and say mom, it's
really hard.
I'm trying to pay attention tothe teacher, but I hear every
conversation going on around meand I'm overhearing this kid

(03:14):
whispering to this kid and I'moverhearing this kid whispering
to this kid and I'm hearing theair conditioner in the back.
We had those old giant likeheater units in the school we
went to and I would hear itcrackle and pop and I could
never pay attention to it.
She at the time this speaks tolike her effort to solve the
problems, and we talked inearlier episodes about putting

(03:36):
the time in to figure it out.
And as long as you're doingthat and you're spending that
time giving that time thinkingabout your kids' issues I
remember her doing research andyou're spending that time giving
that time thinking about yourkid's issues I remember her
doing research and you're justnow seeing this repopulated.
This is, 40 years later, abouthow people with attention
deficit disorder have a uniqueability to lock in on something

(03:59):
and to hyper, hyper focus whenit's something they're
interested in.
And I remember her telling methis when I was a kid that this
was a valuable personality traitin the hunter-gatherer days
being able to lock on and followan animal for a long period of
time and have absolutely nothingtake away your focus and that

(04:21):
the hunters, they, embodied this.
And so for me, as I learned tocontrol it and I will tell you
those parents dealing with thisthere is light at the end of the
tunnel.
I figured out how to control it, probably towards the end of

(04:42):
high school, maybe even into mymid-20s, but where I could use
it kind of as a superpower, ifyou will.
I could focus enough to payattention to different
conversations when I was insocial situations, so that I
would have topics to broach withpeople if the social dance, so
if I was talking to somebody, Icould carry on a conversation

(05:04):
with them while listening toanother conversation.
Then if I had to talk to thatperson I'd have a point of
reference when it came toengaging with them.
So it became kind of asuperpower and then
understanding that, being ableto utilize focus on things that
I was interested in, well, then,later in life, that led me to
really be able to excel when I'mpassionate about something.

(05:25):
So you know, I think early,early life for me was our mom
never losing faith, you know,continually doing things like
sitting at the table constantly.
And I was thinking about this.
Yesterday my daughter texted meand said daddy, I need my
science fair board.
And it was like the second orthird time I'd been to school in

(05:47):
the last week and a half tobring something my kids forgot.
And my mom, our mom, wasconstantly doing that.
Dad was on the school board sothey could get into the school
at night if I forgot a book inmy desk and they'd go in and
they'd do that, and so you wouldthink that they were go in and

(06:07):
they do that, and so you wouldthink that they were setting me
up for failure by alwaysproviding solutions to the
problem.
But, looking back, I appreciatethem recognizing that I was
trying to, you know, gain myfaculties in terms of being able
to, you know, be a betterperson, and then their support
and their focus on, um, you know, wanting me to be a good and
contributing member of societyin the longterm really helped me

(06:29):
get through that when I wasyoung.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Can you expound a little bit?
Adhd is super prevalent, right,and you said ADHD is a
superpower.
Can you explain that and I meana lot of people out there that
may have kids that have ADHD andhow that has translated into
being more of a superpower foryou as you've gotten older?

Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yeah, you know, I would say that for me again.
I think I want to say this Ithink when I got into high
school, I want to say this Ithink when I got into high
school this is something youneed to be careful about with
kids in that regard is I learnedhow to use it to manipulate

(07:13):
people, and I think this isgoing to be maybe a little bit
controversial.
And then I'll get back to thesuperpower thing.
For any kid who deals withsomething at a high level, I
would utilize that, like I knewby the time I was 13 or 14, I

(07:33):
knew that I could get throughthe day.
I knew that I could figure out.
You know, you learn how to findsilver linings in topics that
will pull you in.
Let you lock, but if you knowyou can get around that and you
can use your ADHD as an excuse.
Oh man, I forgot my medicine.
I mean, that was my whole highschool career and I know we'll

(07:58):
get there at some point.
But, like, if I got in trouble,that was you know.
Oh, I didn't take my, my, my,my Prozac.
Today it's.
I'm sorry, you know.
Oh, you're, you're cutting up inclass, and so there was always
this ripcord I could pull, but Ibegan to figure out how to
again, and so, for me, what it'sallowed me to do and I think
this is um been reallybeneficial is, again, like I

(08:22):
said, you know, with being ableto focus on pat, focus on
passions, uh, it's, it's reallyhelped me dive deep on certain
subjects and really helped mefeel fulfilled.
Uh, as it relates to just my ownself-confidence, that's been a
big thing, you know, from a froma um focus perspective.

(08:45):
And then, like I said earlier,on the social side of things, um
, it kind of allows you, onceyou, once you get to the point
where you can, where you canjuggle, juggle it, it allows you
to kind of pay attention toyour broader surroundings.
And so this is good, again,like I said, in social settings.
It's good in settings where youmay need to, you know, adjust

(09:08):
from a physiological standpoint,quickly, like you need to get,
you need to.
You know, when I'm in asituation where there's a crowd
of people, I've kind of alreadyfigured out you know how I'm
going to get through that crowdand get out of whatever location
I am more quickly so that I canget home and save that kind of
time.
So those are the different waysthat you can use it, but I

(09:32):
would caution you it is easy tomanipulate if you have people
that think it's thisdebilitating disease.
In my experience it's not.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
One of the examples I remember.
I don't know how old you werewhen you took the computer apart
.
Dad and mom bought it was a Macin big boxes.
It was one of the first Macsout.
It was the hard disk, wasn'tthe floppy disk drive, and at
that point in time it might havebeen late 80s, and these things

(10:06):
are two or three grand, whichis probably the equivalent of 10
or 15 now, and you know you canplay solitaire on and there
wasn't a whole lot you could dowith it.
But um, I remember mom and dadcame home and opened tj's door
and the computer was in pieces.
He completely dismantled thecomputer and dad looked at him
and said something like oh, helost it.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
He's like are you serious?
And I was, I don't know nine,but that was something I to this
day I'm wearing a shirt for thecompany I work for and I'm a
run product for them Like tothis day that fascination with
electronics and how thingsworked at that level.
Unfortunately for us, we grewup in an age and I wouldn't say
unfortunately it is what it is.
You learn a lot through schoolbut there weren't a lot of

(10:49):
options.
It was a pretty straightforwardstandard curriculum and you see
a lot of days, a lot now today,where curriculums are adjusted
for kids with different and Ithink there's good and bad there
.
But for me, I didn't get toexplore that in school, so I'm
learning about things I'm notinterested in.
I'm totally tuned out.
But man, electronics and howthose things worked like it just

(11:12):
allowed you to pay attention tothe most minor details and I
mean to finish your story.
Dad comes in, he loses his mindand I put it back together in
10 minutes because I had.
As I was exploring this andlooking at this, I'm
understanding, okay, what goeswhere and trying to develop a
logical picture of why things gothere and it's always been that

(11:32):
way.
While I'm not the most handyaround the house, I will take
anything apart electronic.
As recent as a month ago, I hadto rebuild my daughter's
Nintendo Switch Lite because thethumb controls weren't working,
so I have no problem doing that, but that's a good example of
being able to lock in andutilize that.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
That's great.
Why don't you go ahead?
You're next In the birth order,I think.
For me I was also.
I'm more social, I'm the middlechild and I think one of the
things that we all figured outwas how to seek attention
differently.
Tj was always in trouble, whichI got a great.

(12:15):
I got a couple of great storiesaround that, but I wasn't.
I was okay academically but Ifound sports was my kind of way.
It was my path.
Very young I wanted to belongto a group.
I wanted to be liked a typicalsalesperson.
I've got a lot of that in meand so I also adapt to

(12:38):
situations.
I still do it to.
You could put me in any roomand I would find a way to just
kind of blend in.
So that's been something that Ithink has been innately wired
into me to some extent.
Our dad was a salesman.
As far as, like you know, sportsbeing the where I found a lot
of my identity and I got a lotof my acceptance.

(12:59):
I was, you know, I hate to saythis because my kids I expect
more from them, but you know Igraduated with like a 3.3.
I didn't take all weightedclasses.
I did struggle, but I found myway to navigate and I had an
unbelievable friend group, and Istill do to this day.
So I got a lot of mysatisfaction growing up,

(13:19):
building relationships withpeople, figuring out how to
navigate social situations, andthen I think some of that comes
through sports.
You know, um, one of thebenefits that I had is my dad
played basketball for a year atball state and um, he played
basketball his whole life.
He played for for been at highschool and he coached me.
And when your father coachesyou, it could go one of two ways

(13:43):
, but I think you had adifferent experience, as we
talked about.
A lot of times you learn andpractice on your first kids I
apologize to my oldest all thetime like oops, you know, I, I,
you push them in a different wayor you want more for them.
But um, dad coached me and Ihave so many memories of him
sacrificing all kinds of time.
Um, he sponsored our teams.
We had AAU Back then.

(14:05):
It was a lot.
It wasn't as what it is now,and he also put me in different
environments.
I think that's part of thereason why I can talk to just
about anyone is, you know, Iplayed basketball at the Boys
and Girls Club, I playedbasketball just about everywhere
, with every different type ofperson, and I didn't know any
better, and so dad exposed me toa lot of different situations,

(14:27):
learning how to deal withadversity, learning how to deal
with all different types ofpeople, and I think that's
continued to play out in myadult life, and so I still, to
this day, I find myself yearningfor acceptance, finding ways to
communicate and connect um, andjust doing that any way I can

(14:50):
as as the one who was practicedon and failed.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Um no, I wouldn't call it a failure by any means.
Dad, you know I'm in athleticsheavily now but, as you know,
I've always wondered what it waslike, um, growing up being you
had natural gifts as well andkind of I always wondered what
it was like growing up that waybecause I didn't you know.
So, like being the one that waskind of the focal point as it

(15:15):
related to athletics all the waythrough high school.
Really, yeah, what was thatlike?

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Well, you kind of adapt right, like you kind kind
of expect it.
It's one of those things whereyour identity gets tied in it,
um, but you know, if you setexpectations for yourself, if I
wasn't scoring 15, 16, 17 points, I was, you know, scoring a lot
of points and playing reallywell in middle school.

(15:43):
And I got to high school and,uh, as, as a freshman I was, you
know, they had me run on thebaseline and said anytime you
can pull the trigger.
You know, um, we had reallygood run my sophomore year and I
don't know I, I just it justwas like you, probably getting
good grades, and I know thatthat was something where you
found your, your identity.
I, I, I don't know if I thoughtabout it much, it was my way to

(16:05):
relate.
I'll tell you what it did do.
It gave me confidence and Ithink confidence is so important
in kids these days and I'vetried to find ways to instill
confidence in my kids, becauseif you're confident, you're
going to figure everything elseout, and confidence, when you
carry confidence, it carriesinto a room and so, being
somewhat successful.

(16:26):
Now I say that I playedbasketball on Zach Randolph's
team and Zach, you know he wenton to.
You know he was a, he played inthe NBA, but then his Jersey
was retired and so forth and soon.
So there was unbelievablebasketball talent around me, um,
so I fit in with that crowd butI wasn't by any stretch a
standout, um, but we had somereally really good basketball

(16:47):
teams and I I just I found that,you know it took when I went to
Purdue and I played co-recbasketball.
I could compete, I could relateto people.
I think that's another thing islike.
Then I went to Seattle and wewere on the pro sports club team
and it was like I didn't knowanybody but all of a sudden I
show up and I can hit a fewshots and throw some passes.

(17:08):
I'm like, everybody likes me,and so it was like it was an
easy way into, you know, crowds.
It was an easy way into meetingpeople and they want, oh, they
want the basketball player.
We went from the C team to theB team to the A team and we just
cleaned house and that wasn'tall because of me, but it was
just a matter of like.
That's how I think I gainedacceptance so I could join
circles a little faster throughathletics and I think that's

(17:29):
true for any type of person inany type of situation.
You know, if they're good, theycan find a way to transition
into different situations easier.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
When you were in high school.
I want to, I want to understandhow this helped you, how you
think this helped you.
You ran into a scenario andwe're going to be biased, but
having watched you playstreetball, having watched you
play at the pro sports club andanybody who's played in our
driveway there was this scenariowhere in high school, for
whatever reason, your skill setdidn't align with the team to

(18:00):
the level that a lot of peoplethought it should have.
There was a lot of and again,this isn't throwing shade at
other players on the team.
There are a lot of them arestill are really good friends,
but there was, there was a lotof tension, especially your
junior and senior year, you knowmy sophomore year was was my
favorite.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
We went 18 and two.
I was just talking to coachBlackman about it.
Last week I saw him on there.
He's like man.
That was the team.
The grade above me was sotalented.
I mean so talented Kyle Chen,andre Betts, jojo McPherson and
then you throw in, like you know, zach was a year younger than
me, but we're the same age.

(18:39):
We played AU together.
There's just so much talent andthere was a lot.
There's only a couple of usthat play.
That was my.
It was me and Rob, rob Acord,and then there was the kind of
the group below me.
But I learned a really hardlesson and I held a grudge for a
really long time.
I'm going to tell the storytoday and I don't really talk
about it much, but as a senior Istarted for six games.

(19:00):
We got to Lawrence North and Iwas subbing in and out with a
good, a good friend of mine now,and I kept.
I would go in.
I started and then he took meout two minutes later and then
coach put me back in and he tookme out to Moses and I finally
said coach, what am I doingwrong?
And he looked at me he goes.
That's what you did wrong and Iwent from starting to probably

(19:22):
ninth person on the team andthey would call me instant
offense.
I would come in and I wouldscore a lot of points in a very
limited time.
But that one line in my lifesummed up my basketball career.
Now I could have gone andplayed D2, maybe D3.
I wasn't interested at thatpoint, but the thousands of

(19:42):
hours summed into that and so Ithink about that often.
And I did hold a grudge againstcoach for quite some time and I
saw him recently and we andit's water under the bridge and
he doesn't remember it the way Ido.
But that was a life learninglesson that I'll never forget
and I think it has helped me asI navigate difficult situations

(20:04):
to kind of keep of keep my cooland understand how that worked
out.
So whether it was fair, whetherI played or not, I could play
with those guys I did.
James Blackman knew what I wascapable of and he was the one
helping me kind of get intocolleges and try to get
different looks.
I don't believe I got the fullfair shake to kind of live out
my senior year like I wanted to,but I really don't have anyone

(20:26):
else to blame but myself, and Ihated that it went down that way
.
But I look back and the lessonthat I learned from that and to
where I am today.
I don't think I would be hereif that wouldn't have happened.
You guys, I mean you talk alittle bit just about how some
interactions with othersinfluenced you.
I'd love for you guys to spendsome time on that with mom and

(20:46):
dad.
What do you think?
What characteristics and traitsof theirs did you exemplify?
What ways did they influenceyour overall personality or kind
of what you turned out to be?
I think for me, the dad and thesalesman side I picked up on
that and I was with dad a lotbecause we played a lot of
sports together, well, together.

(21:07):
Dad coached me and we were goneall the time.
You guys know that and so Ireally got to see dad kind of
working.
He still works the crowd right.
So that salesman and thatloving to talk to people was
something that I really learnedfrom him, and I would say from
mom.
For me was just the willingnessto listen, and I think about

(21:31):
that now that she's gone and Iwonder in certain situations
what mom would tell me or howshe would advise me.
But dad we always joked wouldbe like because I said so, you
can't do that.
Why, dad?
Because I said so, mom wouldcome to your room and sit down
and have a 15 to 20 minuteconversation about this.
Is, this is why this is whatwe're trying to do, and she'd be
very learning and it like Iappreciated that.

(21:53):
Um, I get why dad said becauseI said so, because I say that
now and I'm just like I don'twant to talk about it, um, but
those are two.
Two things that I reallyappreciated is dad sacrificed a
lot to pour into me during theathletic time and I picked up a
lot of his mannerisms, and thenalso mom and just being a really
good listener and just reallydialing in.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, I think for me again, I spent more time with
mom when you were with dad wasand this is something I've
recognized about myself over thelast couple of years was the
desire to make sure everybodyelse is happy.
Mom did everything for everyoneelse, like you said, she, you
know, we don't know why herdisease manifested like it did,

(22:36):
but there's a good chance thatit was, you know, or there's at
least somewhat of a chance thatit was because she ran herself
like she did, and so I rememberhaving this conversation I don't
talk about this ever either.
I was a sophomore in collegeand I was talking with a good
friend of ours, matt, and I washaving this breakdown because I

(22:57):
had focused so much of my life.
I mean, if you look at ourhouse in high school, um, it was
all about other people beinghere having a good time,
creating this awesomeenvironment for people, making
sure there were smiles on theirfaces.
And I realized, as a sophomorein um college, I had no idea how
to be happy without that, um atall.

(23:19):
Uh, now I you know, and I'veworked on that over the years,
but, um, I think that's led to alot of what I've done
professionally, you know,throwing parties in Seattle for
a decade.
It was about people having agood time, and one thing we
prided ourselves on is, you know, when you think about
nightclubs and nightlife, a lotof times there's this

(23:39):
stereotypical, spray-tanned,plasticky, you know type person,
and our crowd was the exactopposite.
It was the person who may havenot have been popular in high
school, could come and get in,um through the vip line and feel
like they're the most importantperson in the world in this
environment.
You know, and that was whatgave me gratitude.
And then the same thing I thinkhappens with with the races we

(24:02):
produce now is that my wholegoal is to make in life still,
and I think a lot of what shedid is to make other people
happy and ensure that they havea good time.
We all have moments in lifewhere we're selfish, and I have
those as well, but theoverwhelming majority of what I
do isn't.
I wouldn't be producing racesif it was to make money, so you

(24:27):
know it's to create these reallyamazing, fulfilling,
value-filled experiences.
That's what I learned from her,and then I would echo you as
well, trent.
I spend an inordinate amount oftime having longer discussions
with my kids every night or whensomething doesn't go their way.
Once the emotions have subsided, sitting down and explaining

(24:50):
why things occurred the way theydid.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Now you're, this is a little different.
You're four years younger thanme and six years younger than TJ
, so we kind of somewhat wentthrough a little bit of this
together.
I'd love your take on theseparation and just your life
and, you know, probably feltlike a single child at some
points, like kind of talk usthrough that.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, that's I would say for me.
I mean, you guys have alreadytalked about it.
I'll kind of hit on some of thethings you've hit on.
Academics were wide open interms of.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
I graduated with a 1.7 to 3.3.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
So I think Trent hit on this and I'm more of a
behavioralist.
I feel like a lot of behavioris learned and just through kind
of your environment, and Iquickly learned that if I got
good grades I was a hero aroundhere because mom and dad hadn't
had that yet, and so I got a lotof very positive feedback and I
think that certainly shaped whoI was.

(25:49):
So I would also say I became abit of a perfectionist in that
regard because I sought thatattention.
It was positive, it felt good.
I think the other thing thatwas interesting about this is my
standard of excellence had tobe so high to be able to even
compete in the same stratosphereas you guys when it comes to

(26:10):
video games or other things.
So I learned real quickly andfor those that don't know, this
has been fun for me because Ihave three boys who are the
exact same spacing as the threeof us.
So it's been really fun to watchmy youngest grant kind of go
through the same thing.
But in order to keep up yourstandard of excellence and your

(26:31):
uh, level of, um, attention todetail just had to be so high.
So again, whether it was videogames or even sports, I had to
find really unique ways to beable to even get on the court
when you guys were playing, letalone be able to compete.

(26:52):
You know, being so much younger.
So yeah, I would say, certainlyacademics was a focus for me.
And then what also isinteresting you guys haven't
talked about is even in sportswe all kind of fell into our own
sports because those weredifferent ways for us to kind of
have our own identity and notbe stuck in someone else's
shadow.
So you kicked for the footballteam.
You also ran a little bit.
You were basketball and soccer.
I was predominantly golf,played basketball for a little

(27:13):
bit.
But that also is interesting, Iwould say for me.
You know, I would say one ofthe things I guess to answer the
earlier question, in terms ofmom and dad, I think probably
from dad that standard ofexcellence.
You know he was extremelycompetitive and we've talked
about at times when he wasyounger.

(27:35):
He had some things that he wentthrough, where he was kind of
on the outside that I think hestill wears to this day.
We can talk about a little bit,you know, at a high level.
There was a family that livednext door that were members of
the country club and you knowthe Daly boys and girls, which

(27:57):
was my dad and his siblings,usually had to go home when this
other family went to thecountry club and I think he wore
that and you know, as he grewin his career and was able to be
successful enough to join thatand for our family to be able to
join that, I feel like thatstandard of excellence and

(28:17):
competitiveness kind of carriedthrough.
It was always go big or go home.
It was always like, you know,win, win, win and not like win
at all costs kind of thing.
But uh, you know, I think heknew how fun it was to win.
He had won in different aspectsof his life.
He had to keep played collegebasketball and excelled.
Um, he had done done well forhimself professionally.

(28:39):
So that standard of excellenceI felt like he really did a
great job of emphasizing.
But I think mom, the balancewas just brilliant.
Her mom was a humility I tookthe most.
I mean she was extremely humble.
I mean she checked us a lot,just of like you know that's
great, you did well, but youknow you need to make sure

(29:00):
you're fitting through the doorwhen you come back home.
So you know, I think those twothings I would say I embodied,
in addition to some of thecharacteristics that I had to
develop being super young.
The other thing that's reallyinteresting that I have noticed
as I've gotten older is I have ahesitation to be the face of

(29:22):
things, and Trent knows this.
I work with Trent at InsuranceManagement Group and we've got a
very complimentary skillsetTrent likes to be the face he
talked about in sports anddeveloping that confidence.
What was awesome for me growingup is I was always able to kind
of lurk in the shadows, I kindof hung back and then I would
just kind of I would shine indifferent ways, but I wouldn't

(29:43):
need to necessarily be out therebeing the face of it, and so
naturally, um, I enjoy more ofthat kind of second uh role
where I don't have to be outthere, you know, schmoozing or
casting a vision, or you know, Ilike to be kind of behind the
scenes, problem solving, working, thinking Uh, and it's

(30:04):
interesting, as I've justunpacked, that even in the last
few months, I think some of thatcomes from being able to, you
know, at a young age, coming upand being in the shadows.
I mean, I was.
I just kind of followed yourguys's lead.
I followed your lead in videogames and different things and
running, and so I continue to dothat.
I will follow in your lead andin others lead, and then I a way

(30:25):
though to excel at that in somesort of unique way with that
standard of excellence.
That's just kind of a patternI've developed and you know I
try to lean into that.
There are times where I'm likeyou know I need to, you know I
need to be the guy, or you know,or, but I think it's, you know,
it's something that I've triedto lean into and embrace and
I've really enjoyed playing thatrole One of my favorite things

(30:51):
about Todd is very sneaky goodwhen you play that role almost
to a point of there's beenseveral times where I don't want
to say unexpected, but peoplewould just assume something and
you're in your closet doing athousand pushups or whatever and
you show up and it's just likepeople are like where did he

(31:15):
come from, whether it's runningor whatever, but like you still
carry some of that.
Maybe that's the humility side,but what drives you to kind of
work in silence or to kind of bethe silent assassin?
I would say you know it'schanged over time.
Early on it was competitivenessand it was a way for me to get
attention.
When you guys came home inkindergarten we talked about

(31:37):
this in a previous episode and Ihad, you know, done that.
I had gotten a few of the guysthe 99999 guys and baseball
stars.
It was like, you know, I justkind of quietly went about and
it was kind of.
I learned about that delayedgratification and I learned at a
young age to master thatbecause it took so much work to
get to a level that I couldcompete.

(31:57):
I would say that is probablythe main skill that's allowed me
to do.
That is, mastering delayedgratification and know it's
coming.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
What do you think?
You know?
You see, there's this dichotomy, there's this two sides of the
coin.
When it comes to the youngestkids, sometimes you see a
situation where the youngest kidis you know the parents and I'm
just going to say it, say itagain, call like I see it where
maybe the parents are burned outand they just placate the kid.

(32:31):
You know, here's a tablet likejust get just whatever.
You know, we, we are definitely.
You know, all the sentences aresenses are heightened and
dialed in on kid one and you'reyou know, know, oh my gosh, they
fell on my kid three.
You're just like whatever.
So in a lot of instances yousee child three not as developed

(32:52):
or lacking in certain skillsets, and then on the flip side,
there's a child three like youthat came out guns blazing.
Is that?
What do you see as being themain things?
Is it inclusion with your oldersiblings?
Is it your parents still beinglike?
What do you see as the mainthings?

(33:13):
That kind of puts you on thepath that you're on.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
I think it's a combination of both.
I think in general it'spositive feedback and a way for
you to successfully have aunique identity.
Because I think in some caseswhere if there hadn't been a gap
in academics and you had hadacademics and you had had sports
and there was enough going onthere that mom and dad were
leaning into you and therewasn't really a way for me to
find a way to have a uniqueidentity that I got positive

(33:40):
feedback on and I kind of youknow there was a level of
excellence that I was able toachieve and feel.
I think that's where it couldhave gone very much the other
way.
So I think some of it'scircumstantial but at the end of
the day is what space is thereleft in the third kid to be
unique and be able to have andembody and feel a level of

(34:05):
excellence in some form orfashion, whatever that is so
looking we've all kind of talkedabout up, maybe through high
school to some extent, but whenyou talk about I'll call it
worldly success or just howwe've, we've all taken different
paths and this is one of thethings I love is like when you
look at someone that's beensuccessful or that has kind of

(34:29):
found their purpose either.
One of those I said would beimportant.
We all took way different pathsto get there.
Yours is probably the mostinteresting and you've talked
about it a little bit on some ofthe prior episodes.
But kind of summarize like youleave school, you could have
gone a thousand different ways.
You could have turned out athousand different ways.

(34:51):
How did you and one of myfavorite stories here, as I hope
you touch on, is just the onedecision to go to that camp or
to go and apply for a job inWest Lafayette Talk me through
the micro decisions that havechanged your life?
Just to preface that you saidyou graduated from high school
with a 1.7.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yes, I almost didn't graduate.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
This is what makes this, I think, so interesting.
I wanted to preface this andthen you left Ball State.
I mean, you were in a similarsituation academically at Ball
State.
Similar situation academicallyat Ball State.
Like you were on a path that Ithink people who saw you at that
moment and then saw you at thismoment would be very surprised.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
So I think it's a testament to parenting and to
never giving up and tounderstanding that there are
different paths.
Looking at our mother, youtalked about academics.
She was a teacher, she was aguidance counselor, she had
multiple degrees when she was,you know, at that time, you know

(35:58):
, it was very commonplace to getmarried in your early 20s.
She didn't, and so she wasgoing back to get her master's
like.
So everything around her wasacademic.
So you would think that in hermind, that would be the only
path forward.
Um, and she continued to pushme until her sixties to to do

(36:18):
some other things academically.
But she did keep an open mind,and I think dad did too.
You know, for me I did barelygraduate and when we had
children, our mother gave usthese books that she had written
.
She had journaled for usgrowing up, and the last page of
mine was that she would prayfor me because I was so out of

(36:41):
control in high school.
And I wasn't out of control inlike a traditional criminal way.
I wasn't going out and robbingpeople or getting locked up or
in juvie or whatever, but if itwas within the lines of legality
, I pushed him as closely as youcould and I was very
disrespectful.
So if you're dealing with this,if you're dealing with a child

(37:01):
who is just out of control isout of control and it wasn't
constant.
It wasn't throwing tempertantrums at 16 or 17 years old,
but it was just little thingsand it was just constantly.
I spent most of my high schoolcareer grounded, but I would
figure out ways around it.
Like we talked about havingkids over and doing things like
that.
So I'd figure out theseloopholes, which I think

(37:24):
ultimately at the end has helpedme professionally.
But anyways, back to the kind ofthe academic side of things.
So graduating with a one seven,and then, of course, the next
traditional thing was all right,go to ball state.
So I get into ball state, um,and I think I'd gotten accepted
my junior year, because I thinkhad they seen my senior year
transcripts, I don't know if I'dhave gotten in.
But anyways, go to Ball Stateand immediately I fall into the

(37:48):
same pattern that I fell into myentire life.
I was really interested incomputers and so that's all I
did Again, utilizing thatsuperpower to learn everything I
could, whether it was thehardware side of things or the
software side of things, um,just spending 10 to to 15 hours
a day um sitting in front of ascreen.

(38:09):
I was the basement kid rightthe mom's basement kid in
college drinking 10 to 15sprites, I would drink?
yeah, I would drink half a caseof sprite a day.
I would get subs from the um.
They had these subwaysandwiches from the, the dining
hall across the way.
I'd have people bring them tome.
I was working at the time onpirated software, so I was

(38:32):
illegally pirating software.
I was working for the largestand this isn't like an official
job but I was part of thelargest piracy network in the
world and so I ran their illegalROM site which, for those that
aren't familiar, you allremember Nintendo, super

(38:52):
Nintendo.
Well, those systems, by thistime, had been coded into
emulators.
So an emulator is a softwareprogram that would live on a
computer and you could loadgames into a software program
that would live on a uh computerand you could load games into
said software program and playyour games.
The problem was those gameswere still owned by the creators
and the licenses were stillwith the creators of the games.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
So, um, you had to make them similar to like arcade
games now, where they build thearcade game and you can go in
and play every nintendo game.
Like those are, and they'veobviously figured out licensing
now but it's the same thing,very similar.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
And so that's all I did.
And I went through my firstyear and again similar right
Like just barely over a twograde point average, and I think
it was my first semester of mysophomore year.
I was in, I want to say, maybea geography class or something
like that, and I'd gotten introuble for plagiarism and they

(39:49):
were kicking me out of the class.
And I think at that time, youknow, even though mom had been
as frustrated as she could havebeen in high school with me and
dad was at his wits end, youknow cause they helped pay for
school.
They could have written me off.
They recognized that.
Oh wait, this, you know hereally loves computers and at
that time Microsoftcertification was in its infancy
.
And so they're like you knowwhat, if you want to go do this

(40:11):
different thing, there's thisMicrosoft certification program
at this place called NetworkServices Group in Indy.
Let's just figure this out.
So I'm like, okay, I would lovethat.
So I go to Network ServicesGroup and I started on this
program and, of course, typicalme Next thing, you know, I've
ingratiated myself with thisgroup because I'm reprogramming
their satellite cards for freesatellite service, and even the

(40:36):
instructors got free satelliteservice in the class and I did a
great job, um, after that, Iwent right into working for that
company, cause, you know, theyprided themselves in placing you
with different opportunities.
They couldn't place me rightaway, so I went to work at their

(40:56):
front desk.
Of course, I was still acomplete maniac, so I ended up
falling asleep, um, at theirfront desk multiple times and it
was time for me to move on fromthere.
Uh, found a job locally, um,you know, repairing and selling
computers again.
Um, you know, I did my best,but I was way out of my depths

(41:16):
at 19 trying to and I wasbasically running the business.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
So, um, computer systems computer systems
unlimited.
Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
The things that happened there, but I was still
really enthralled with computersand so I think it was sometime
during my employment there,there was a job fair at Purdue
and I don't know if you weregoing to it or mom encouraged me
, but I'm like I'll just go.
And I went there and I visiteda handful of booths.
One I visited was Microsoft andI just said you know, um, I'm,

(41:49):
I'm interested, you know here's.
I don't know if I had a resumewith me or if I gave him my
contact information, but it waskind of like whatever, you know,
um, and I went back to BallState, um, cause I was still
living at Ball State andcommuting and working whatever.
And I remember, like threemonths later I just got a random

(42:10):
call from Seattle and I pickedup the phone and they were like
we'd like you to fly out forinterviews.
This is mid 2000.
And I'm like whoa, you know,again, I think I was also A plus
certified, so I had all thesedifferent certifications and I
think back then they carried somuch more weight because not a
lot of people had them.
Now it's almost like you haveto, um.

(42:32):
And so I flew out to Microsoft,um, um, my gosh end of 2000 I
had seven interviews and I washired um and they moved me out
to seattle.
You know, in early 01 I startedin early 01 at the systems, or

(42:58):
at the sock systems operationcenter which was the operation
center for msn, which was amassive website at the time.
For those of you who were aroundthen, it was the default
website for Internet Explorerand had a huge amount of traffic
I believe in the top five andso we monitored those servers
and things.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Can you pause for just a second?
And then I want you to continue.
I'm trying to think of thisthrough mom and dad's vision as
a parent.
Graduates with a 1.7, has ahigh SAT score, gets into Ball
State still 1.8, 2.0, gettingkicked out of classes.
Just trying to figure it out,I'm trying to just imagine where
my head would be at that pointin time.

(43:40):
But you still found a way topersevere.
So I, just, as you were talking, I just I had that note of like
I wonder how I would havethought, I wonder how I would
have reacted, I wonder what Iwould have said.
I mean, the level ofdiscouragement had to be high,
you know, at that point, youbore 18 years, 19 years, Like
well, we got two more.
We just hope the next two workout Right, and not that I mean

(44:06):
it was almost by your ownstandards, like, I think, had
you a state of computer systemsunlimited.
Not that that would have beenan issue.
It's just with yourexpectations and the
expectations you know ofwhatever graduating from college
or whatever, I think.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
I think they gave.
They also gave you the comfortand the confidence to try.
So it wasn't like and and again.
I think we've talked about thisprior.
You know we had a differentcontext to life because, you're
right, computer systemsunlimited.
There was.
You know, I remember early onthinking how can I build this
business into a reputablebusiness in the area?
I just didn't have the skillsetat 19.

(44:39):
I just didn't know how to dothat.
I didn't understand customerservice.
I didn't understand value.
I didn't understand the meaningor the value of being
consistent and upfront and allof these things.
And there were other socialskills that I didn't have at
that time either.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
But yeah, I mean.
So back to Microsoft.
You're in the sock.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Yeah, so do you guys want me to go through it all?

Speaker 1 (45:03):
I mean you can stop wherever you see fit.
I think for me, you gettingfrom where you were to Microsoft
and I know in a prior episodeyou kind of covered from that on
but as a parent, I thinklaunching your children is
really, really hard to do,especially today.
I have a lot of friends, youknow, you graduate high school

(45:25):
and you either go to college oryou don't.
And I think it's it's probablyeven more now in 2025, where
there's not as much stigma.
I think there was a 10 year runor so where it's like you,
everyone needs to go to college,even though, like, only 40% of
jobs out there require a collegedegree, and then if you didn't
go to college, there was nothingfor you.
I think now we're in a timeframeeven more so that it's like no

(45:47):
college might be for you, but ifit's not, that's not a big deal
.
There's a lot of differentother options.
I don't think that was the casewhen we were coming out in
early 2000s or late 1990s.
It was kind of go to college atthat point in time.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
So Well, I mean, I think that you know again, until
I was in my late thirties, momwould always say well, and I
think that comes from maybe aplace of scarcity, like a
scarcity mindset that you knowat some point in time in their
upbringing, like if you didn'tgo to college, there was this
definitive line Right, and Ithink they saw a lot of high
paying jobs when they werecoming up, were in manufacturing

(46:24):
and they lived through,especially in Marion, those
manufacturing plants shuttingdown and then those people being
jobless because they didn'thave college degrees.
And I think mom saw that andwas like oh my gosh.
And so even in my thirties shewould say are you ever going to
go back and get your degree,even after multiple successful
endeavors and getting to thelevel that I'd gotten to?
I think that was always a topicof conversation with her, but

(46:47):
I'm glad that.
I think one thing that's veryimportant to focus on is that
they kept pushing.
There was never a.
They didn't allow you and theyset a great example too to be
satisfied with mediocrity,because they could have just as
easily been like this isn'tworking for you, just come home,
we'll give you the rest of themoney that we have saved up for

(47:08):
college and then let me on mymerry way.
But they always provided someguidance and even some last
minute support in Seattle to getme over the hump, to kind of
get me progressing down theright line, and then all of the
things that I had learned kindof snowballed.
But you know, I think from atraditional path perspective I
was probably the leasttraditional, but you weren't

(47:31):
traditional either, like and soI think that's important because
while I took probably had therockiest road to get there,
yours was not necessarily smooth.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Yeah, I had no clue what I wanted to do.
Right, I was your typicalathlete.
I had a 3.3.
I joke again.
I hate that my kids will hearthis at one point, but I had a
990 on the SATs.
I didn't break 1,000.
And part of that was because Ijust didn't care.
I'm similar and so I had justto quantify that, that the scale
, I think, is different.
Now it's not a 2400 as opposedto sick.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
It was 16 then it's 24 now, I thought.
I think it's back to 1600 16.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
I think so yeah well, my son came home doing the
psats and he's 12 or 1300 and isa sophomore and I'm just like,
okay, so at 990.
And so I applied to Purdue andIU and I'm like, yeah, I'll go
to one of those.
And it's kind of like I wonderwhere are my friends going or
who am I going to have aroommate?
But still, tj was intocomputers and I think about this
now.
I tended to do a lot of thingsthat you did like I.

(48:37):
There was a comfort and and andmy story will obviously go that
that route.
But thinking about it, so, um,I decided to go to purdue.
I had a roommate, uh, and I hadseveral friends that went to
purdue.
I had several that went to iu,but again, there was no like
strong pull of like I want to dothis or I want to be this.
It's like, well, computers area big deal.

(48:57):
Tj's into computers and hewould teach me things like a
little bit here and there.
So I felt like I, but I meanhe'd basically spoon feed me and
then I would rinse and repeat.
I didn't really have anyskillset there.
So the first couple of years Itook general classes and then I
started to get into some of themore technical classes, but in
true fashion I was there for thesocial party, I was there for

(49:19):
the life and I didn't find myidentity in grades.
I didn't find my identity ingrades.
I didn't know what I was goingto do and so I joined a
fraternity my second semesterand I also got a 1.3.
That second semester I startedout the first semester, got a
3.0.
I felt really good about it.
Looking back, I'm not sure youshould feel really good about a
3.0 your first semester, becausehalf your classes are

(49:40):
orientation of being an adult.
And so my grade I had a three,oh, and then I had a one three,
uh.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
I would like to cut you off because I want to
qualify something here.
Todd and I in high school andcollege were straight edge
neither no substances at allwhich is crazy counter to my and
there was a part of me eventhough I wasn't a drinker, um,
that really appreciated yoursocial skills.
I remember coming down toLouisville, um, and going to one

(50:09):
of those parties and it was,like you know, I've done a lot,
I do a lot of like behind yourbacks, um, just admiring you
guys and like complimenting youand telling your stories to
other people.
So, um, I maybe expound alittle bit on the social stuff
and I mean because it was as aguy who didn't have that skill

(50:31):
set and was the mom's basementguy in college.
It was pretty, pretty cool towatch.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Well, I think we all try to find ways to fit in.
So I'll go back to high school.
So I had a buddy where youcould, you could drink at their
house, and so when I wasn't inbasketball season then we would
have beers at his house and thatwas kind of okay.
And so you know, you'd sit downthere at that point and you'd
be like a Miller light orwhatever.
You drink it and it would beawful and you'd just be like,

(50:58):
yeah, you just kind of reallytough it down and you know, you
go through those things Causeyou, I just wanted to be
accepted.
So bad Right, I just I wantedto be part of the cool kids I
wanted, you know I had.
So I was trying to fit intothat persona, cause I needed
that affirmation, I needed tokind of be with that.
And so I started, you know,drinking when I was in high

(51:19):
school and that really became afocal point of my life.
In college I did take an.
So one of the things I learnedin college is it's and it still
carries true today.
Who you know is just asimportant as what you know.
And I met a guy I'm going togive him a shout-out Mark Weaver

(51:40):
and his dad was a professor andsomehow we got an internship.
I think they looked at my firstsemester grades and it panned
out and so literally after myfirst year we went down to
Louisville and we're working forGE Appliances and in true
fashion I join a club, I meetsome people and I think to round

(52:02):
off that summer summer at theplace we were staying we had I
don't know 400 people we rentedout and like cops came.
It was crazy.
You know there's 30 people inour apartment with the door shut
Just absolutely crazy.
But that's just what I think.
We both got jobs at Abercrombieand Fitch and we just met people

(52:23):
and we were social and we likedto have fun and so that kind of
became my identity in college.
So we did that down atLouisville, which was crazy.
We got thrown out of thatapartment complex and then
eventually I was there eightmonths, I did a co-op.
So then I came back to Purdueand I was back in the
fraternitynity and things didn'tget any better academically.

(52:45):
I take that back.
I may have like a 2.5 thatfollowing semester, but I still
had a good time and I met a tonof people and I built a ton of
relationships.
I met my wife there, but Iwasn't going anywhere, and so I
often think back of like I couldhave easily dropped out of
college and I could have beendoing something very, very

(53:05):
different when you went toMicrosoft.
I came out one summer and Iworked at UPS.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
With Mark Weaver.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
At.
It was like 10,.
The shift was 10 pm to 2 am.
It was awful.
I mean, they figured out a waywhere you couldn't really do
anything but you only workedfour hours and got paid for four
hours.
But we were sorting packages atnight.
I was one of the roughest jobsthat I ever had.
And then me and you, you wouldget off and we'd play AOE for
five or six hours and we weremaking money at the time, but I

(53:36):
still just kind of just doingwhatever.
And even out there I was havinga good time.
We were going out building theteam party down, having a good
time.
We were going out building theteam party down, meeting people,
playing basketball, whatever.
Come back to school.
I'm there for the fall semesterand then the spring semester I
had applied for a job atMicrosoft and I was hired as a

(53:58):
contractor.
So they hired me and I leftschool and moved out with TJ.
I'm like, well, I want to be anit and this is like a dream job
for me.
Like let's go.
So that was 2001 and I wouldhave been 20.
So here, me and TJ are livingin his.
He had an apartment.
I moved in with him and when itall started, we were like

(54:21):
really introverted, right, likewe would play a lot of video
games.
I think you were still at a.
I got a.
I saw a picture the other day.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
We're still at a bigger phase of life.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
And you were kind of like you would typical work and
go home and silo yourself.
And I found and we were makingdecent money at that point I was
working at Texas Roadhouse incollege making $ dollars and 13
cents an hour, plus tips, and myfirst contract was 27 an hour
and I was averaging 20 hours ofot.
I remember one time getting apaycheck that was for like one

(54:52):
week.
That was five grand and aftertaxes was like 3400.
And I just remember we went outand bought like a two thousand
dollar receiver, like for likespeakers, stereo receiver, yeah,
like a denon 5800 with all thespeakers and I found ourselves
buying DV.
We had a DVD collection that wekept buying stuff to try to
like.
Yeah, we were just, we justfelt empty.

(55:13):
We were lonely, right, like wethink back on that time we had
each other, which was great, butI think, more collectively, we
didn't have community and wewere lonely and at some,
something triggered and it wasprobably my, my socialness that
kicked in and we just startedmeeting people and doing things

(55:34):
and going out and that thatspawned a lot of relationships.
We started playing basketballrelationships.
We started playing basketball.
We started doing a lot morethings I was there for from 2001
to 2004,.
Probably the difference when Ishowed up and when I left was

(55:54):
kind of night and day fromeverything that we had
experienced and from where youwere and what you were doing and
what you were involved in andwhat I was.
And so what happened for meover those three years was
maturity, where I think it'slike when you get out of high
school, it would be good foreveryone to spend a couple years
maturing.
So I grew up, I learned enoughtechnically working for
Microsoft over the last threeyears that school.
I was able to go back to Purdue, so I went back in 2004, and I

(56:20):
got back in and so I leftSeattle.
I think it was December that Ileft and I think I in, and so I
left Seattle.
I think it was December that Ileft and I think I started
January of 5.
It might have been.
I got back into school, I wasmature, I was focused, and from
2005 to 2007 in May, me and Toddwere in together.
So, todd being four yearsyounger, we actually graduated

(56:40):
college together, and so I gotto spend as adult.
One of the probably one of mygreatest memories is regardless
of where we were and what wewere doing.
I got to live with TJ as anadult.
I got to live with Todd as anadult and I have so many good
memories of the achievements andthe games that we played.
And I think about us runningroutes.
I mean, think how many routeswe used to run Like we'll hike,

(57:00):
someone would take a sprint anddo a thing and we throw the
football.
So I have so many greatmemories with both of them.
But when I got back to school, Ijust took a different approach.
I sat in the front of theclassroom, I went to class novel
idea and I went to office hoursand I spent time, and so I
didn't have a GPA that was undera 3.5.
My last couple of years itwasn't as much a capability

(57:22):
thing as it was a focus or acare thing.
You had to come clean onfinance.
Well, so there was a financeclass that I may or may not have
been mistaken for my brother.
So it was a struggle for mebecause at the time, was it
finance?
Was it some type like calculus?
It was finance, it was finance.
Okay, so we get our reportcards and I got an A in finance

(57:43):
and Todd got a C.
So we get our report cards andI got an A in finance and Todd
got a C and I'm like man, I gotreal, I mean I think that one.
I had a 3.9 that semester orthat period.
So Todd contacts the professor.
I mean I liked him, he was mybrother, but I didn't like him
that much to take his C.
So I was like, hey, I think yougot this mixed up and he
acknowledged it, but he ended upleaving your yeah it was too

(58:04):
much paperwork for him to change, so I actually got the a and
todd got the a sothank you for that.
Uh, 20, 20 years later.
So, um, so I graduated and atthat point in time I had a real
unique resume.
I had all this experience formicrosoft.
Um, very technically savvy atthat point in time, I could do
anything on windows xp or from acommand prompt.

(58:25):
I was was pretty strong, but Ididn't want to be so technical.
I realized that I did enjoypeople.
I wanted to kind of be thisbusiness liaison.
I'm like I want to be a projectmanager, have the IT, have the
business.
I'm going to pull them together.
And so I graduated and I had alot of different job
opportunities Bank of America,allstate, there were several

(58:47):
others, liberty Mutual I alwaysjoke with Todd because Liberty
Mutual came to campus and theyhad a TDP program, technical
development program, but you hadto have a certain GPA to get in
and I didn't qualify, but Todddid.
So that still burns me to theday.
I had all this experience andwhatever, but I did not qualify
for the TDP program.

(59:07):
So the job I was going to takewas going to be Bank of America.
That was it.
And, mind you, this is May of2007.
The crash of the whole marketand the world falling apart was
August of 07.
They were right in the thick ofit, too Right in the thick of
it, and so this is where I wasgoing to go.

(59:31):
Then I met a local entrepreneurI grew up with.
His kids had come and visitedme at Purdue and wanted me to
come sell insurance.
And I'll tell the story.
It's funny to me, but we wentto.
He took me out at it's funny tome, but we went to.
He took me out at bro, wasn'tbrothers scotty's scotty's brew
house at the time at purdue?
And the other guy that waspresent at the time.
And we sat down and I rememberhim saying, well, how much are

(59:54):
they going to pay you?
And I'm like, well, it's like60 000, you know, with move and
bonus.
He's like, well, I can't dothat.
He's like, I'll pay you 40, youdon't want to go work for them
anyways.
And I'm sitting there thinkingand he's like, okay, now we've
got that figured out, we're justgoing to.
And so in his mind this wholedeal was done.
And I was sitting there like, doI really want that?
But my fiance at the time, soonto be wife, she's local and her

(01:00:17):
dad used to joke with me andsay, hey, it's going to be a
really long commute if you endup in North Carolina, charlotte,
where Bank of America was.
So he was putting it to me tostay and I've just always been
big on community.
So I think one of the mainreasons I said is I just wanted
to be around family and we werereally lucky when TJ decided to
come back, because when you livethat far away, it's just it's
really hard to have a with thattwo and three hour time change.

(01:00:41):
It just felt like eternity,like we didn't ever talk to
anyone back home.
We were completely disconnected.
So I chose to go sell insuranceas a sales guy at insurance
management group in 2007.
I got hired on at $40,000.
And I didn't really love coldcalling, but my whole journey

(01:01:02):
and everything that Iexperienced, that's where I kind
of started my professionalcareer.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Well, you did mention in there, uh, About the TDP
program, which I think speaks toTodd's very traditional
academic approach and pathtowards where he is today.
So you have a very rocky road,a somewhat rocky road, and maybe
he perceives it as rocky, butfrom my perspective it is a four
lane highway the whole way.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
So let's get after it .
Well, I mean, I didn't kind offinish in high school.
Uh, for me.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
I kind of talked about some of the early days.
But high school I was it wasjust me and dad and we played
golf and um that was.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
It was kind of an only child.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Favorite son.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
I worked on that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
It sure isn't me, so it's one of you two that it sure
isn't me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
So it's one of you two.
And then I I did.
I excelled academically.
I ended up going to Purdue,studied business and MIS and it
was a.
It was, I mean, it was justsomething that I was wired to do
.
I was a little more introverted.
I didn't have.
I did join a fraternity my firstsemester of my sophomore year.
And I will tell you just, we'vetalked a lot about community

(01:02:23):
and you become the five peopleyou spend the most time around.
That is so true.
In my freshman year I had a 4.0and a 3.8.
My first two semesters when Ipledged, I think I had a 3.0 and
a 3.8.
My first two semesters when Ipledged, I think I had a 3.0 and
a 3.2.
My sophomore year.
And what's so fascinating aboutthat and you talked about, you
joined the fraternity and got a1.3.

(01:02:45):
When I was in the dorms and Iwould come back and some, maybe
this is just our competitivenessthat drives this so much and
makes it so exaggerated for us.
But when I would come home orcome back to the dorms with like
an 80, 85 on a test, like youknow, you compare right What'd
you get?
What'd you get?
What'd you get.
That didn't fare very well,like you had to be getting

(01:03:05):
something.
In the 90s, if I came back tothe fraternity with anything
over a 75, people were lookingat me like I had four heads Like
it.
People were looking at me likeI had four heads.
It was like that's unbelievable.
How did you get a 75?
Now, most of these peoplehadn't been sober for about
three months, so it was a wholedifferent animal.
But my GPA dropped almost apoint just by being in that

(01:03:26):
setting.
So for those that are not yetbought into the idea that your
environment and who you spendyour time with impacts who you
become and what you accomplish,1,000% the case.
So I joined a fraternity.
I kind of faked that for a whileand then you came back and we

(01:03:47):
did the last couple of yearstogether, which was a lot of fun
, running routes, and we haddrilled a hole in the wall to
play AOE I think you may havebrought that up and I spent a
lot of time playing age of theempires.
Um, I blame trent for why Ididn't get honors.
We played so many.
I got a c in art appreciationbecause I must have went to half
of the.
I mean, art appreciation had tobe one of the easiest classes

(01:04:09):
at purdue, but I went to abouthalf the classes because we were
busy playing age of the Empireson Purdue's network, by the way
.
So I did that and I did getaccepted.
I did qualify into the TDPprogram.
It was local, it was about anhour away, paid well in
technology, had a littlebusiness flavor.
It was right up my alley and Ithink I used a lot of the skill

(01:04:34):
sets that I had grown up with.
A lot of that delayedgratification and discipline
that I had to embody andexemplify, to kind of be able to
fit in, came in real handy at aFortune 100 company because
there's a lot of red tape andthere is a lot of things you
can't control, and I was reallyable to parlay that into quite a

(01:04:56):
bit of success there at Libertyand then obviously came to IMG
shortly thereafter.
So that's the short version ofit, but it's certainly the least
interesting.
So we'll keep it at that,unless there are any follow-up
questions.
I think it would be fun tomaybe each kind of go through
some some fun memories orstories that we remember.

(01:05:19):
Before I do that, I want tomention one thing that mom did.
That was really good.
This place always had an opendoor policy.
I mean, malachi lived with usbasically for three years and I
think about those things.
I call those refrigeratorfriends, someone that can come
over, that can get in yourrefrigerator, and this house was
always open no matter who cameover and what time, and I just

(01:05:41):
thought that was really, reallyimpactful for all of us.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
And I mean you have a group, you know the Sid, the
Sid Posse like Mom would comehome to my friends cooking food
in our kitchen without me here,like multiple times.
They'd get you, you know,schwan man or texas toast.
We would make texas toast.
Or, you know, I do have afriend who cheese bread cheese,
bread, bagel dogs oh yeah, youknow all those things, the

(01:06:05):
heartburn, yeah schwan's wentout of business just like this
year, yeah really disappointing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
We were still using them.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
We lived off of that yeah yeah, I did, I really
processed food at its finest Iwould like to really quickly,
before we get into the memories,to just expand on your story a
little bit.
How was that as it related tobecause your relationship with
mom, because of your academicsuccess, because there was
always friction with me, so like, how was that with you?

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
It was good.
I mean a lot of positivefeedback.
I mean mom was still good.
She didn't take it for granted,always kind of encouraging me
to and expressing herappreciation for it, and it just
kept me fueled to continue todo more of it.
I think in some cases,especially as parents, we can

(01:06:57):
start to take things for granted.
That's just who that kid is andwe don't always provide the
reinforcement to keep themmotivated to continue excelling
in whatever they're excelling in.
And she did a really good jobof that.
And even when I didn't do wellthere were times where I didn't
do well she was encouraging andsupportive.

(01:07:18):
You guys feel like in parenting,sometimes less is more At
certain times.
Absolutely, I don't know thatthat's a blanket statement that
I would make, but I would saycertainly there are times where
that's the case.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
Yeah, I mean I think if you get close enough to your
goal.
I mean what think if you getclose enough to your goal?
I mean what's interesting to meis that we've all developed
these skill sets at differenttimes in our lives.
You've mentioned a bunchdelayed gratification and
discipline and you kind of hadthat in high school Newsflash.
If you don't remember fromearlier episodes, I got fired
from Microsoft because I hadzero discipline, intellectually

(01:07:55):
gifted enough, and again, Ithink this has changed over time
.
But we see this politicizedkind of now today a little bit.
You know we all have differentworking styles and I was very
optimized.
So you know I wasn't someonewho wanted to do work to work.
But I went through sevendifferent managers at microsoft

(01:08:17):
and the last one that wasingrained in their culture was
that you were busy.
If you were at work, you werein front of your computer doing
something.
Um, I didn't understand thevalue there.
I had zero discipline in thatregard and so, um, I was like go
for microsoft twice for thesame reason.
Both times I was getting thingsdone quickly and and and, um,
you know, the second time not asmuch.

(01:08:38):
I didn't do a whole lot, playeda ton of party poker um at that
point that was fun that wasgreat.
Um, so sorry, microsoft, uh, but.
But it's interesting that weall seemingly developed some of
these skills.
You know, discipline for mecame through fitness in my 30s
and 40s and through a number ofdifferent professional
opportunities.

(01:08:58):
So I think it's I just wantedto call that out it's kind of
unique that you developed thatthen and and we all kind of
brought these different elementsof our being, you know, and,
and largely without the guidanceof parents, so kind of the less
is more.
You know it was done, but Ithink they got us to the point
where they were confident enough.
We had enough of the foundation.

(01:09:20):
We're 40%, 50% of the way there.
We'll figure out the rest.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
I think one of the hardest things as a parent,
though, is like when you're onTodd's path and the path Todd
took.
As a parent, you're feelinggood about yourself the whole
way.
When you have children thatdon't maybe take a standard path
, the rollercoaster ride ofworry and like I just I can't
imagine and I'm sure all parentsdo it Our kids aren't old

(01:09:45):
enough yet, so they're not posthigh school yet but that
rollercoaster of wanting them toand it's not just career, it's
wanting to find someone thatthey can fall in love with and
raise a family with One of them,to have spiritual connection
and find meaning in God andfaith, and you yearn for your
kids to have the things that youbelieve are going to.

(01:10:07):
I want to say, drive value ormake them happy, but as a parent
and what I think is reallyinteresting about this is, all
three of us took completelydifferent paths, right, and
we've all kind of somewhat comeback to a similar ground, even
though the path there was way,way different.
I think one of the things thatI've heard in both of your

(01:10:28):
stories is and I would encourageother parents to do is instill
the right values.
To me, you said foundation, andthat's what jumped out to me
when you said foundation is thevalues were still instilled.
You had a certain standard ofexcellence that you were
committed to for the things thatyou were passionate in, and I
think, for you know, we've heardthe different things we've

(01:10:50):
picked up from mom and dad ofthe humility or the listening or
some of those things.
I think, instilling the rightvalues and continue to encourage
and support in the best way youcan and hold accountable right.
I think it's important.
Uh, all of those pieces and youtalked about that too mom and
dad never really got complacentand said, okay, hey, here you go

(01:11:12):
.
There was still someaccountability to continue to
find your path and I think that,combined with instilling the
right values, can go a reallylong way, even though I think in
some cases the fruits mighttake longer to bear.
One of the things I would likeyou to talk about we've all

(01:11:32):
played different roles withinthe family.
I would put you as thecommunity builder of the family.
Like since you've been home,even more so.
You have continued to find waysto kind of bring at least us
three together and dad, and like, what drives you there?

(01:11:52):
Like what, why do you?
Or is it just yourinquisitiveness and sharing it
Like do you see yourself as thatrole for, for the family you
know as being the oldest?
I don't know if that correlates.
Kind of talk me through how yousee that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
For me, it's just what I referenced earlier.
It's it's this insatiableappetite to make people happy
and to, and part of that issharing things that I think they
will find exciting.
So that's a lot of um, you know, whether it's these different
experiences that that I, youknow, in in being so close with

(01:12:29):
you guys and understanding like,okay, here's the type of
pushback I might get from Trent,here's the type of pushback I
might get from Todd.
So I need to present this inthis manner and at least get
them looking over the ledge,because I know when they get
there, that they're going to beexcited and happy with that
experience, whether that'ssomething we're doing and
achieving and accomplishingphysically or um.
You know, part of the reasonthat I consume, the level of

(01:12:51):
content that I do, is I get soexcited when I'm able to send
you guys a text with somethingthat I think is specifically
going to.
So it's like what people dowith memes, but it's on steroids
.
It's like I mean, I called youto come to my house to play
Bellatro.
I'm like you have to see this,this is right up your alley.
And then, and then you know,knowing that you have a little

(01:13:18):
bit of affinity for that as welland presenting it to you.
And now we have this game thatwe've referenced three, three
different podcasts, um, that wecan all like sit down and talk
through and and um.
So I'm always looking forthings that I I just I don't
know, I'm not saying I'm betteror that I'm selfless, but I'm
always looking at things orlooking for things that, um, I
think other people would bereally interested in and that

(01:13:38):
they would find value in.
In that, um, you know, likewe've talked we've talked in the
first and you're still doingthem, by the way about the races
this year, uh, and I knowthey're tough, but like I can't
wait because I know, afteraccomplishing both of those, um,
you know you're going to reallybe excited, uh and so.

(01:14:00):
So that's the big thing for meis is just.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
I it's going to suck.
It's got this look on his faceLike I'm not sure I'm doing
those yet Well, I haven'tstarted training, yet When's the
first one?

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
May 31st, first one may 31st, um, and then september
6th.
But yeah, uh, that that for meis is what drives me um, and I
like I don't know.
You know, obviously thischristmas was different because
I was in a lot of pain, but likeI'm the kind of guy I think you
guys are too, I know you are.

(01:14:32):
We're like, if we ended upgoing up to the lakes and
spending 10 days there, I'mtotally cool with it, just like
hanging out.
I mean, I wanted to get homethis year because I was
miserable.
But yeah, I think it's acombination of those two things,
but specifically the former.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
That's the I mean.
So the role I like to play nowis like bringing us all together
, like I want to find ways tobring all of us together to make
memories for our kids and forus and the lake will be part of
that.
But that's important to me tocreate those broader memories
with cause.
I remember our cousins and youknow we just we did that a lot.

(01:15:08):
I remember it.
We still try to get togetheronce a year with the broader
group, but I really enjoyfinding times where all of us
can come and spend time togetheras a family, and the more we
can do that and we're all takingon different roles.
Now you know, because mom'sgone and you know whether it's

(01:15:28):
cooking or whether it's what,whatever, or the way that we
approach that.
But I feel like if we don'tmake it important, it'll be one
of those things that justcontinues to fall by the wayside
.

Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
Well, we've definitely gone roundabout, but
you did mention earlierreflecting on some of our most
fond memories from growing up.
I won't start, but I'd love tohear some of yours.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
I would say one of the things where I feel like we
got our standard of excellencefrom and you know we've talked
about this in prior episodes Ithink mom and dad actually gave
us the space to achieve theserare levels of excellence and
that's the video games.
We would just play for suchextended period of times and
achieve such unique things.
I mean, I remember the summerand maybe we've talked about

(01:16:16):
this in a prior podcast or wewere playing a bond, uh, james
Bond 007 on the Nintendo 64, orArnold Palmer tournament golf,
uh, and we had happy Gilmore onthe TV right next to it.
Tj had concocted some sort ofthing and we would be down there
for like 12 hours at a time,and maybe we would go up and

(01:16:36):
play basketball for an hour orso, but we would just
continuously, and I think someof that, I think it's
interesting.
I do feel like the standard ofexcellence that we achieved in
those games did stick with us,because I feel like that was
something that we took pride inand, uh, it was, uh, something

(01:16:56):
certainly we collaborated ontogether.
But it's hard not to think.
Video games girl.
I've got a couple of fun storiesjust to give you the different
personalities between these two.
So they both worked for dad umat his prior business and tj
when he would work in thewarehouse.
I remember a story once wherethey would find him hiding in

(01:17:17):
that puff box Peanuts, peanuts,yeah, the little peanut packing
things.
The box is this big.
They come back looking for TJand he's completely submerged
himself.
He's nowhere to be found, and Ialways remember that.
And then Todd after we left himand dad Todd would go back when
he didn't have anything to doand he completely reorganized

(01:17:37):
the warehouse, took all thepallets down and alphabetized
them or whatever you did, and sowhen TJ got bored he decided to
dive and hide, and Todd wasmore.
So I've always remembered thatstory.
Can I ask a question on thatstory, because this is
interesting?
We've touched on this a littlebit, but I think it's a broader
thing that a lot of parentsthink about Nature versus

(01:17:59):
nurture.
Are we born?
And I think the easy answer iswell, it's a combination of both
.
But I'd love to hear you guysexpound on that a little bit,
because some people would sayokay, like you said, parents
would say two parents raisingkids, generally the same way.
They're the same people.
We've got one that's hiding ina peanut box and one that's
actually reorganizing thewarehouse, because they've got

(01:18:20):
this perfectionist, you know,like something going on
neurologically.
I'm not sure what the disorderis.
I'm sure they'll figure it outthat I have, but do you think
it's more nature or more nurture?

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
I would say our story proves that it's more, in my
opinion, more likely nurture,because, from a nature
perspective, we're all born withsignificantly different
personalities and skill setsthat led us down particular
paths, up on relatively similarplaying fields.

(01:18:52):
Because those values, thatfoundation, was established,
albeit via different mechanismswith the three of us.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
Yeah, I don't know when I'm sitting here thinking
about that.
Your drive for academic success, my drive for academic success,
my drive for social acceptance,your drive to.
Do whatever I ended up doingyeah, fit in, or whatever that
is, Make people happy.

(01:19:24):
I don't know if that is ouryearningness to belong We've
talked about wanting to belongto things and if that would be
called nurture or nature.
I don't know that.
You could argue that we werenurtured into those channels
right, Because we saw anopportunity.
I don't know how much of that'slike.
If you had the same and I knowyou're really strong on this If

(01:19:48):
you had the same exactexperiences that I had, we would
turn out very similarly.
I don't know if I believe inthat.
I believe that there's someuniqueness to our soul and to
our being, and I believe nurtureplays a big part in that.
But I think if we all had thesame exact conversations and

(01:20:11):
upbringing, that we wouldn't beidentical.
We would be slightly different.

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
I agree with you, but I'm saying like the results
relatively speaking, looking atthis globally, are relatively.
We're all wildly differentpeople but we're all kind of
like on this relatively similarplateau.
It's like it's not that andit's not.
You know, you work in theservice industry and you have no

(01:20:37):
kids and whatever.
And I work in another industryand I have 15.
We're not wildly different.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
We all have what we consider, I think, white-collar
jobs-ish, and we all have threeto four kids and we all have.
You know, we all live in insimilar whatever.
So that's that's where I waskind of going with.
It Makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
I think it's uh, I would say, before I had kids I
was a.
I was 100% nurture and nurturejust that.
Your environment and yourexperiences shape who you are.
I had been in a lot of caseswhere I felt like nature is used
as an excuse.
Right, well, they were justborn that way, or oh, that's
just how I am, or that's justwho I am, or that's just how I'm

(01:21:23):
wired, and so I don't know whatsituations rubbed me the wrong
way.
Where that particularly, Ideveloped such a strong opinion
after having a few kids, and Ido believe kids come out with
different wiring.
I mean, I think birth orderwould be interesting to spend a
little bit of time on, because Ithink that's really interesting
and I've more and more people Italk to is like super spot on.

(01:21:43):
But I do believe that kids comeout with different wiring, but
I ultimately believe probably 90.
I think it's a very, very highpercentage is the environment
and their experiences.
And and that includes otherkids you can't like if you have
the first kid who has fullattention from both parents and
no siblings.
It's an extremely differentenvironment, even if those

(01:22:04):
parents are parenting extremelyconsistently, the fact that
there's another human being inthe house and that dynamic like
that drastically changes theenvironment and what that older
sibling excels in.
And we've talked about kind offilling in the gaps and things.
I think people underestimatethe extent to which small
variables in an environment canchange how someone turns out.
But I personally believe a lotof it's nurture or environment.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
I want to go back to the rest of your stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
One of my other favorite stories is and so this
would have been like 1997, 98,and we were full into CDs at
that time, right Like CDs werebasically the only thing you
could put in a car TJ arguablybuilt one of the world's first
MP3 players and put it in the PAthe Park Avenue.

(01:22:56):
So he took a speaker and youknow a big, tall standing
bookshelf not a bookshelfspeaker, but a floor standing
speaker took the insides out ofit and had this open case and he
built a computer inside of itthat had, I think it was like
10,000 MP3 songs on it.
And the craziest part was therewas this keypad, that up front,

(01:23:18):
where he would have to like,you know, if you wanted
metallica, you would like okay,m, that's about 6,000, and he'd
have to try it in to kind offigure it out over time.
But what like?
How did you even figure thatout?
And like, for me that's justcrazy to even think about.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
mp3 players weren't even really a thing at that
point in time yeah, you know itcame out of frustration for
wanting to have as much music aspossible, and again, I had
already started, I mean backthen it was.
That was when napster was likein its infancy, so we were
finally for the first timeexposed to peer to peer file

(01:23:53):
sharing.
So we could have like, if youput enough time in and I'm sure
we've all downloaded songs itended up being something
completely different becausethere was a lot of trash on
those systems back in that day.
But, um, I'm like man, how coolwould it be to have thousands
of songs with me.
And how could I do this withthe knowledge that I have at the

(01:24:17):
time?
So you know it was like okay, Iknow I can get a system to run
without a monitor, that's not aproblem.
You see that in industrialimplementations all the time,
and I know Windows I think was98 at the time, or 95 even will
run in that manner.

(01:24:37):
And the software we used backthen, if you guys will remember,
it was called Winamp, and soI'm like you know, when you boot
Windows you boot into thelauncher, right, that's the
graphical interface.
And so I'm like well, what ifit booted into Winamp, the
graphical interface?
And so I'm like what if itbooted into Winamp?

(01:24:58):
And then all I would need tofind is a plugin that would
allow me to interface withWinamp through a number pad.
So I would load it up withWindows 95.
I would load it with Winamp, Iwould load it with the songs, I
would set the path in Winamp, Iwould change the config file to
boot into Winamp and then I'dinstall a plugin in Winamp that

(01:25:20):
would allow me to control it.
And then what I would do is Iwould use a mass file namer to
name the files in a way thatbecause what I ended up doing
was I printed out a hugepamphlet booklet of all the
songs, in a way that made sense,and then if you wanted a song,
you would flip the booklet.
You'd find Metallica, uh, innerSandman, and you'd hit enter

(01:25:43):
and then you'd hit the numberand you'd hit enter, um.
So it was kind of a pain, butthe way it worked was I had a
power supply.
It was a DC power supply,because it needed to work off of
the cigarette lighter in thecar, and so it's kind of like an
inverter style.

(01:26:04):
No wait, I had an inverter, soI had an AC power supply to an
inverter.
I can't remember it's beensorry guys, it's been 25 years,
but anyways.
You turn the car on.
It would boot up every now andthen you'd have to restart it if
it didn't boot right, butthat's how it worked.

Speaker 1 (01:26:18):
And to think, you know, at that time there had to
have been hope for mom and dad,where you were, you know, almost
failing out of school andyou're creating and building,
and like just to hear youdescribe it now like I couldn't
have done that, like there'sjust no way you were 18 or 17.
One of the other funny storiesabout TJ is he was not a morning
person, so when we were in highschool together, he would wake

(01:26:41):
up like literally seven minutesbefore we had to go.
We'd hop in the car, he'd driveup about about half a mile to
the gas station and he'd throwit in park and say Trent, you're
driving Well, which was fine,except I was 14 at the time, and
so I remember driving to schoolas a 14, 15 year old several
times because TJ was just, hecouldn't, he put his contacts in

(01:27:01):
and he couldn't see and he wasso exhausted over there.
But those were some of thethings that that we did.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
That was I would wake up in the morning and I would
go in the bathroom Cause mom waslike, can you take a shower?
And I would turn the shower onand lay on the floor.
So she thought I was showering,like all I needed to do was step
in the shower for five minutesand rinse up.
Nope, just lay on the floor,turn the shower off and get out
like I showered, and I might'veeven as gone far as to put like
water on my hair out of thefaucet just to be defiant.

(01:27:30):
You know, I have a lot ofmemories, um, and a lot of them
are so.
They were, they were stressful,because I mean so.
One of the things that Irealized early on growing up
with trent was that I wasdefinitely inferior with sports.

(01:27:51):
I learned that pretty young,and two times stick out was.
We were in Florida and I toldthe story a lot.
We're shooting threes, we'rehaving a three point contest,
and I was up and this is likemonumental Cause, I think by the
time I was 12, I was like therewas Trent was destroying me and

(01:28:11):
I was winning and Trent keptpushing the limit.
Oh, that's best of 20, best of25.
Well, finally, trent catches upand passes me and he's like
nope, game over.
And I burst into tears.
I was probably 14, um,sprinting home from the

(01:28:32):
basketball courts in Floridabecause he had once again bested
me.
And then again, this is not tocondone this types of behavior.
But this will maybe paint apicture as the type of child I
was, so the fast forward,probably.
He's probably a sophomore inhigh school, and so dad was very
when Trent was in season, as healluded to earlier, with going

(01:28:53):
to his friend's house out ofseason.
When Trent was in season it healluded to earlier with going to
his friend's house out ofseason when Trent was in season.
It was home at this time notdoing things on the weekend.
Dad was really focused onTrent's basketball and we were
outside playing in the driveway.
It was Trent and I and it wasone of our friends and his dad,
I think.
And Trent pulls up, trentbeating my butt again, and Trent
pulls up from a baseline jumperand I grabbed his ankles and he

(01:29:16):
y and Trent pulls up from abaseline jumper and I grabbed
his ankles and yanked him outfrom underneath him because I
was so sick of getting beatenand my dad flew out of that
house and chased me around thepond next to our house.
But it was a good lesson, youknow, in humility, for me
realizing that.
And the funny thing was, evenduring that time and since then,
you know, I've always kind ofuplifted and told the stories.

(01:29:41):
When we talk about things thateither of you are gifted in, I
love telling people about thoseparticular things.
So those are two sports storiesthat I remember as it relates
to you and I just you know Toddand I were pretty significantly
different in age, but I doremember him playing basketball

(01:30:04):
with us when you know I'm 15 andhe's nine, and he did put like
the work in and the effort in toactually make a difference.
It wasn't like we just let thiskid out there to play basketball
with us and he was a completeliability which led to you, you
know, making a national AAUappearance and being a really

(01:30:25):
good outside shooter, becauseobviously you spent the majority
of your childhood playingagainst guys who were two feet
taller than you.
So I'll remember those games inthe, in the, in the driveway
that we set on fire, um you knowum, or were you?

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
was there anything?

Speaker 2 (01:30:43):
else you want to cover there.

Speaker 3 (01:30:44):
I I mean, we've talked about some of our
memories and we didn't spend asmuch time together in high
school, uh, or before that, Um,but the stuff at college and
obviously a lot since then, thetwo that jump out to me was the
party poker night.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
We would stay up all night and one night we were
playing.
I don't have I told my?
Did I tell my party poker story?

Speaker 2 (01:31:09):
You did, but I know where you're going with this
Cause.
This is going to relate to lastweek, but, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:31:15):
I am going to go to that.
And we were in way over ourheads playing table limits on
online poker.

Speaker 1 (01:31:23):
I would have been probably 19.

Speaker 2 (01:31:25):
It was right before I left for Seattle and you would
have been 13.

Speaker 1 (01:31:30):
Yeah, this was live money.

Speaker 3 (01:31:32):
Live money, live money.

Speaker 1 (01:31:33):
Yeah, maybe I was 14.

Speaker 2 (01:31:35):
Might have been 14 and 20.

Speaker 1 (01:31:36):
Yeah, anyways, Somehow we got money in there
and we started to kind of, wegot a little bit of money and I
think we jumped to a 510 limittable.
So that means the small blindis $5, the big blind is $10.
And this is in 19.

(01:31:57):
This probably would have beenearly 2000s.
Okay, so the year 2000, like Imean back in the day, 20 went a
long way.
This was just you, if you werethe, you know, each time went
around the table you had to putin 15 just to be able to
contribute to the hand, but thehands were being, you know, it
was it was not unusual for ahand to be worth 150, 200 and so
tj and I would be playing this,you know, a lot of times.
It fun, we would lose 50 bucksand be done, and we got pocket

(01:32:18):
aces in this hand and we were atthis 5-10 table and long story
short, so I don't even rememberexactly what happened, but we
won this hand.
It was $492.
And I remember pocket ones $492.
It was a username of somethingfor a very, very long time, but
this does.

Speaker 2 (01:32:38):
And to remember that it was in the middle of the
night, it was probably 2 or 3 inthe morning and we were so
excited we woke mom and dad up.
Yes, we're like yo, we just won$492.

Speaker 3 (01:32:47):
Yeah, we're in the living room up here and, yeah,
we totally woke them up.

Speaker 1 (01:32:56):
But I think what's interesting about this?
We I think there's no challenge.

Speaker 3 (01:32:59):
Uh, there's very few challenges we would back down
from and so this just parlaysinto probably going to be an
all-time memory.
That happened this past week.
Um, we were in las vegas.
It was a couple weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (01:33:14):
Anyhow, wehow, we were in Las Vegas and you know
where they're really really goodat Las Vegas at making you
think you're about to win.
They've got these side games onthe machines and it's like the
things are filling up andthey're ready to burst.

Speaker 2 (01:33:27):
I think I want to just expound on that a little
bit, because I think a lot ofpeople when they're in Vegas
they see these slots, andespecially if you're our age, I
know.
For me, I didn't go out toVegas a lot and so I was always
drawn to the original threewheel slots because they were
easy to comprehend.
And when I saw these pennyslots or whatever, where you
have a lot of denominations anda lot of multipliers, it's like

(01:33:48):
this is way too overwhelming.
Well, we figured out reallythat the point of these slots is
there are these secondary.
Imagine filling up a jug ofwater and every X number of bets
, this jug of water gets higherand higher and higher.
So continue.

Speaker 3 (01:34:08):
Yeah, that's a great.
I'm glad you shared that.
So until the jug of waterempties out right, which is a
win, and so we had played thesegames.

Speaker 1 (01:34:20):
We happened to be there a couple of months ago.
We're not in Vegas every coupleof months.
This is just a weird string ofevents.
I turned 40, my wife turned 40.
And we had played some of thesegames and we thought we'd
learned our lesson.
But we found this one when wewere out there where because
with some of these games youcan't actually tell when it's
actually going to overflow,right, it looks like it's going
to get full, you know, and itjust keeps getting fuller and

(01:34:40):
fuller, and fuller and fuller.
And next thing, you know,you've put way too much money in
this machine and it hasn'temptied the jar.
So TJ and I found this onethough that actually showed you
specifically, accounted, itcounted, it said like hey, this
is at 199 gems and when it hits200, or 198, when it hits 200,
it's going to burst, right?

(01:35:01):
So TJ and I sit down at thisthing.
We get there, and I'll try notto draw the story out.
We get there on a I don't knowwhat day, friday, and we see
this machine it's got 196 gemsand at 200, it bursts.
Now we've been warned to takeseveral hours, you know.
So we played it a little bit,got it to 197, but we were

(01:35:21):
winning on this machine, weweren't really sitting down to
do that.
But two days later we found itat 198.
We're like, oh, let's just playthis for an hour or so and see
what happens.
We get it to 199.
This is at like 8 PM.
We get back from dinner and weget this machine from 198 to 199
and at 200, it bursts Right,and so and we'd had a

(01:35:42):
conversation earlier.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
We were walking through a casino and I looked at
him and he goes.
I was like what if we get it to199?
I'm like you know what'shappening if we get to 189?
I said I'm in for at least agrand, like let's go, and so
we're going all in, so we'replaying this thing, and at about
10 o'clock we ended up playinga little longer.

Speaker 1 (01:36:07):
We anticipated at 10 o'clock we hit 199.
And it's like let's go.
And these are the things where,just like, there's a innate
competitiveness I don't knowwhat it is, it's some sort of
dysfunction where it's like,okay, so we start playing this
machine and it's 11 o'clock andwe don't hit it.
And we're thinking, you know,we hit one of these just about
every two hours.
So far, right, two and a halfhours.
So we're thinking about, youknow, midnight or so we should
be hitting this.

(01:36:27):
So midnight comes and goes, wehaven't hit it and we're just
continuing to pump in, becausehe had mentioned what he was
putting in.
I was matching that and we'rejust pumping money in this
machine.
Is this where I enter the storywhen I call you?
Not yet, but yes.
So 1am comes and goes, 2amcomes and goes, 3, 4am comes and

(01:36:47):
goes.
So we've been sitting at thisslot machine for eight hours and
we are just like I mean, thisisn't like hey, let's hit it,
and kind of wait.
It is like go, go, go, go go.
And I don't know what's goingon because again we've hit this
thing and there's other colorones that we're hitting, but
this diamond one was like thebiggest one, right, I mean let's

(01:37:08):
talk about the physicaldifficulty.

Speaker 2 (01:37:10):
So not only is there the mental and the staying awake
, this machine happens to beright in front of the doors, yes
, and it's like 40 out.
So every time the doors open,which is probably at one point
every 90 seconds, I mean, it wasopen almost constantly there
From eight until two Until atleast midnight, and then once

(01:37:30):
they close it, they come over toshampoo the carpet and they
turn on a carpet fan and pointit right at us.
So it's like holy cow.

Speaker 3 (01:37:41):
That was a sign from God.
God gave us every excuse to getout of there, but we were hell
bent on hitting this machine,and so 4 am, 5 am, 6 am, and now
it's 6 am and 5 am I left?

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):
because I had to travel the next day.
So I'm like man, we've got toget up and get on the plane.
I got at least three hours ofsleep, so I said I'll wake up in
three hours.
I'll come down and take over,if you haven't got it yet, which
was at 5.

Speaker 1 (01:38:09):
At 6 am.
I'm still going and again, atthis point it's been 10 hours
and I'm starting to worry, likeI had made my last run to the
ATM, like financially, this wasgoing to be like we had to draw
the line somewhere and it wasapproaching quickly.
7am came and went and then Idialed into a call at IMG at

(01:38:33):
maybe 6.45 yeah, 7.15 your timeat IMG at maybe 6.45 yeah 7.15,
your time.
Well, no, I didn't dial in untilthe next meeting because I
caught the very tail end of thatbecause you were like, hey,
we'll say a prayer, yeah, 7.45so then about 7.15 I hit this
machine and I don't know if Iwas on mute or what happened,

(01:38:54):
but I just I completely lost it.
And I don't know if I was onmute or what happened, but I
just I completely lost it CauseI had been there I mean the
sleep deprivation, freezing allnight.
I mean we literally sat at thismachine for over 11 hours
hitting and people had come byand warned us, but it didn't
matter, we were all in.

Speaker 2 (01:39:09):
It was rough, man.
I mean there were the first guythat came, we had three main
people that hung out and thefirst guy came and just was
spinning yarn like the wildeststories you'd ever imagine.
And Todd and I aren'tnecessarily very confrontational
, so I'm sure you've been inthose conversations where
somebody is talking and not aword they're saying is honest,

(01:39:31):
but you're just like trying tobe kind and he was there for
like an hour and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:39:35):
Just keeps building and keeps telling more, almost
like he's just saying to himselfwhat else can I say that
they'll believe?
And so I mean it wasunbelievable, the people we ran
into.
One guy had told us yeah, I hada buddy, this was about 930 or
10.
He's like, yeah, I had a buddy,it was at 198, took him 17
hours and he put in you know Xamount of thousands of dollars.

(01:39:56):
And yeah, we were like, yeah,you know, I get it Like, but I
mean I don't think we had anyidea what we were getting into.
The long and short of it is wefinally hit this and let me tell
you that jar of water whichbasically should have been a
pond, a small pond or a lakefull of water basically turned

(01:40:16):
over a sippy cup of winnings andit was good because there was
closure there, but certainly wewere way upside down.

Speaker 3 (01:40:30):
But I think that's one of the things that just all
three of us, I thinkcollectively, we have taken on
some very unusual challengesfrom one of the things that I
think.

Speaker 1 (01:40:39):
I mentioned this on a previous podcast when we at 10
pm decided we're going to go toBest Buy and wait in line all
night to get the PlayStation 3.

Speaker 2 (01:40:48):
So there's just some things that I think it's fun to
it's fun, um, to don't ever losethose things, right, because it
was.
It was, you know, when we were14 and 20, and then the next
thing that we became known forwas going into an arcade with
the dailies, if there aretickets to be won.
We are going to.
We are going to win the largestwell relative.

Speaker 1 (01:41:11):
You know we're not going to stay there and see if
we can find a couple of thosepictures, yeah, from the arcade,
and then you know here we arein our 40s, still doing the same
thing and still having fun whatother the those are great
stories.
What other things could we addthat we feel like contributed as
a whole to our environmentthrough our parents?

Speaker 2 (01:41:31):
I would go back to what you said about the open
door policy.
Um, I think that we wereexposed and I've seen this Right
now there's a lot ofpoliticized things out there and

(01:41:59):
not really seeing division,whether that be in religion or
race or creed or whatever.
We were exposed to andappreciated every type of person
and we never saw our parentstreat anybody differently.
We still, to this day, have alltypes of different friends and
we still, I think, all valuetheir opinions and them as

(01:42:24):
humans as much as anyone else,no matter what it is that they
do, no matter what it is thatthey believe.
And that open door policy itwasn't like, oh, these people,
and I didn't even really know.
You know you always think it'slike, oh, racism, it's in the
deep South, you never reallythink it's there.
And I remember I had a job atone point and I had a friend

(01:42:49):
that was a really, really goodsalesman and I remember
recommending this friend to anexecutive and seeing a response.
I wasn't expecting they didn'tsay anything, but like there was
this reaction where I could seefear, and it was like I didn't
know, even know that type ofthing existed.
So the fact that our door wasopen to anybody at any time and

(01:43:13):
things, things even happened.
You know, I really struggled.
I went from a class of 12 to aclass of 400.
And we talked earlier aboutwanting to fit in and wanting to
make people happy.
I was at a crisis point becauseI was going into this situation
and I was just really hellbenton being accepted because I had

(01:43:39):
come from such a sheltered spacein terms of schooling.
And I remember utilizingsomething you mentioned, which
were athletes to kind of ridetheir coattails into popularity,
and we had had a couple of themover here and a particular
person stole some, some money,um, but that didn't change
anybody's perspective.
It was just.
It was just an incident withsomething that happened.

(01:44:01):
You know, there werecircumstances, it was what it
was and that didn't change and I, I still I know that person is
still friends with that personto this day like there were
circumstances that were, youknow, outside of our control and
it was cool, but I, I would sayfor me, that is really um been
something that has has, uh,stuck with me over time and will

(01:44:24):
stick with me forever I wouldsay for me one of the things
I've tried to body and I thinkwe could probably do a whole
another episode on parentingstuff.

Speaker 1 (01:44:33):
Because, um, I would say one of the things that I've
embodied the most that Iappreciated is you know, they
say people don't know, peopledon't care what you know until
they know how much you care.
Right, I think that very muchapplies to kids, uh, in that if
you don't have an underlyingrelationship there, they are not

(01:44:55):
going to take course correctionvery well If they don't know
that you're on their team.
And unfortunately, like the waykids' brains processes, if you
tell them that you're on theirteam, I don't think that
necessarily registers.
They need to see and feel thatthey're on your team, or I don't
think they take coursecorrection really well.
And so for me, especially inhigh school, where it started to

(01:45:19):
you know, more significantguidance started to come into
play.
I played so much golf with dad,I had a really good
relationship with dad, and so itallowed him to be able to
provide me with a lot ofguidance that I heeded to and
listened to.
That probably helped me get onthat four lane highway.
Not that things weren'tdifficult on that, it was, but

(01:45:40):
it certainly was a morepredictable path.
And the same with mom.
Mom was just naturally superintentional and understanding
and listening and thatrelationship I've found with my
boys and that's why you knowwe've talked about this a little
bit One of the things I try anddo with them is a quarterly
trip where I spend it's kind ofan immersive day or two with

(01:46:01):
each of them every quarter tomake sure that relationship,
that underlying relationship, isthere, because I find when
that's there and I even findthat it actually is different,
like shortly after that myability to provide guidance and
course correct and explainthings and their response to my
consequences is much, muchsmoother than it is like six,

(01:46:22):
eight, 10 weeks later, becausethat relationship's there.
So for me as a parent, makingsure that underlying
relationship there and they arenot not just you've said it, but
they're actually feeling thatyou're on their team and they
know that you care it makes it athousand times easier to tell
them.
Here's why I'm doing thisClearly I'm on your team.
This would be a lot easier forme to let you sit there and play

(01:46:43):
on screens all day, but I'mtaking this extra time because
and then I would pair that withstaying close enough to them and
observing them to identify theneeds and the areas that they
need coached on and providingthat support.
I think that's the beauty ofparenting is it's obviously
impossible to be a perfectparent, but with a little bit of
effort it's something that,because of the nature of the

(01:47:07):
world, it's doable to be a goodparent.
You don't have to do all theseexceptional, unbelievable things
to be a good parent.
You don't have to do all theseexceptional, unbelievable things
to be a good parent.
There's a lot of pros and consof how different people raise
their kids and I think that'spart of the beauty of it.
But to me those are twofoundational things is having

(01:47:27):
that relationship and thenstaying close enough and engaged
with them, where you can seeand observe those deficiencies
and those areas that are goingto potentially cause for a
bumpier path down the way andget ahead of it.
And I think mom and dad didreally good at both of those.
They were a very unique balance, weren't they like they both,

(01:47:49):
because you really can't haveone one without the other 100.
You can't have the drive forexcellence without humility.
You can't have the stubbornnesswithout the ability to listen,
and one way or another we hadtwo parents that complimented
each other very well from thatskill set and I know when you
and your spouse if you guys area lot alike in certain

(01:48:11):
circumstances there candefinitely be gaps there in
certain parts of parenting aregoing to be harder for certain
people, just depending on howhow they're wired.
But what's been reallyinteresting is each one of us
has taken an experience from ourchildhood from either mom or
dad and they've and it we'reapplying it to the way that we
parent, parent our kids now.

(01:48:32):
So you guys have anything elseyou want to add?

Speaker 2 (01:48:37):
No man, I think that about does it.
I had some other storiespopping in my head, but we'll
save those for another time.

Speaker 1 (01:48:44):
All right.
Well, thank you all for joiningepisode 11.
Today has been a lot of funreminiscing about the stories,
about some of the key thingsthat our parents have provided
us the environment they providedus and kind of the way they've
leaned in.
So it's been fun going down amemory lane.
So we'll see you next time,thanks.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}🎙️Episode 11: Nature vs. Nurture: A Family's Journey Through ADHD, Academics, and Finding Purpose

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}24/7 News: The Latest

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🎙️Episode 11: Nature vs. Nurture: A Family's Journey Through ADHD, Academics, and Finding Purpose

24/7 News: The Latest