Episode 7: Embrace the Struggle: Finding Fulfillment in Hardship

Exploring the essence of fulfillment in our lives reveals a powerful connection between joy and struggle. We share personal anecdotes about challenges faced and why true happiness doesn’t come from easy entertainment but from embracing hard work.

• Discussing our childhood experiences of fulfillment 
• The relationship between happiness and hard work 
• Personal stories about overcoming challenges 
• The downside of easy entertainment and digital distractions 
• Why embracing difficulties creates genuine joy 
• The importance of community support in meaningful growth 
• Reflecting on how past struggles shape our lives today 
• Insights on building resilience through adversity 
• Encouraging listeners to redefine their relationship with challenges 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Daily Edge where we bring you the
latest insights, opinions andthought-provoking conversations
to give you that competitiveedge in life, business and
beyond.
Let's go back.

(00:28):
Here we are, episode seven.
Notice a little change of venue.
Um, we are actuallytransitioned.
I thought it would be fun to dosome of this uh in the basement
we grew up in.
That's right.
So we are.
We're here at mom and dad'splace, um, and we're probably
gonna use this as home base fora little bit.
So, um, if you're first timejoining us, if you've been
listening the last six episodes,thank you.
Hopefully you're finding somegood value.
Today we're going to spend sometime on fulfillment.

(00:50):
Um, I think in life sometimeswe feel like, uh, happiness,
fulfillment comes from, maybethe leisure things in life, like
going on vacations or justlaying around, but I think we
found that to becounterproductive in our journey
, so I'm going to toss this overto TJ.
He's got some really goodinsights and we're going to dive

(01:13):
in.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, I mean this is a topic that's come up in
conversation, as with a lot ofour other podcasts conversation
with children.
I had a discussion this pastweek with one of my daughters
who is, as you guys know, she's11 now had a birthday this past
week, and she wanted to know whyshe can't have TikTok.
And at that age, you know, Ihave a nine-year-old, so I'm in
the mobile phone industry.

(01:35):
Both my children have phonesand that's fairly rare my
nine-year-old gets made fun offor it and my 11-year-old.
We were talking the other dayand there may be 50 of the kids
in the class that have that,maybe a little bit less.
And so I was like well, youalready kind of have something
more than other people.
You're already kind of in that,um, you know, in that scenario
where you're, you're, you'rewinning as far as your uh,

(01:58):
access to digital entertainmentand things of that nature.
So we don't want to go furtherdown the line and there was a
lot, lot of back and forth.
Well, why can't I have TikTok?
And I started to explain as youguys well know and as everybody
well knows, she is a runner, ifyou've listened to this in the
past and I started to explain toher the difference between the
excitement and the fulfillmentshe gets from going and

(02:18):
completing a run and theexcitement and fulfillment that
is never going to be there viaTikTok.
You know we have limits to timeon these particular devices.
Every single day they blowtheir 90 minutes the second they
get home.
And I was explaining to herwell, the reason you're blowing
those 90 minutes is because younever get to the bottom of it.
You just want to continue toscroll and more and more and

(02:39):
more and more.
There's more entertainment andit never satisfies you.
And and then I say well, take,take a look at how you feel once
you've completed a run.
You know you're satisfied forthat day.
You feel like I can tell inyour mannerisms and in your
engagement with me that you'reso much more satisfied, you're

(02:59):
happier, you accomplishsomething.
So the reason we're not goingdown TikTok is you don't need
any more reason or any otheravenues to pull you down that
rabbit hole and suck up more ofyour time and essentially not
help you build any of thesethings like self-worth and
confidence that you do throughaccomplishing difficult stuff.
So that prompted me and I knowyou kind of share, we all kind

(03:23):
of share the same thing, tothink about it, because
suffering has such a negativeconnotation?
Uh, how to come up with a wayto help reprogram that word in
people's minds?
Um, because it does feel sogood when you, when you get
something accomplished that youdon't want to do.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, um, I gotta tell you, uh, I hate you both
right now because, um, I've beenplaying bellatro or baltero,
however you want to say itbellatro and um it.
I mean, I've been traveling alot, so I've been on planes, but
it's unbelievable the rabbithole that that game can put you
in.
So thank you for introducing itto me because, uh, it is

(04:01):
completely sucked hundreds ofhours out in the last probably
three weeks and it's neverenough.
I think to your point, it's anendless game.
It's a fun game but I findmyself yearning for it per se
and I do never find the bottomof the well as I beat stages.

(04:22):
I'm thankful there's an end toit.
Yeah, and I know that when I godown that rabbit hole, mentally
what that does to my brain, italmost frights me for the day
when I spend two or three hoursin that I have a hard time
coming back from it.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Well, it's like I mean, and you can speak like,
how do you sprinkle things in,Because we're not saying
eradicate all entertainment foryour life, eradicate positive
engagements and fun, and you'rejust this.
Uh, I think I mentioned earlierdavid goggins those of you who
are not familiar.
He's the kind of the individualthat, in our demographic,
brought this do hard things,suffer mentality, and it's his
is very aggressive.

(04:57):
So, um, we're not saying youhave to be like that, but maybe
talk, I mean like sprink in.
You know how do you balancethat out?

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, I don't know that, you know there's a perfect
answer, but I think balance isthe key there.
You know, I think a lot of it,tj, what you're saying, what I'm
picking up from that is just anoverall orientation towards
embracing suffering and maybethat's too strong of a word, but
I think embracing suffering ina sense of understanding and
again, I think we've talked inprior episodes kind of how we're
wired from an evolutionaryperspective and I think you know

(05:32):
for thousands, hundreds andthousands of years, we had to do
difficult things to continue tosurvive.
Just, you know, on a day-to-daybasis.
I mean, people were chasinganimals out in the wilderness
and living in caves and things,and so there was no ability to
just sit back and be entertainedfor for the bulk, I would say,

(05:56):
of your satisfaction orfulfillment, and so I think
that's what we're.
I personally think that's whatwe're dealing with a little bit
in society today.
Is that cross-section of ourevolutionary wiring and the
environment.
I think we all know that mentalhealth.
It's really causing some issuesmentally.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
I think that paints a great picture of what's the
endgame.
If we always I think we referto the movie WALL-E, where
everybody's riding around intheir things and they got their
giant sodas and everybody iskind of and my point is, if
that's where we get to andtrajectory's showing that that's

(06:44):
where we're headed, or a lot ofpeople are headed in a lot of
instances, what becomes ofsociety?
You know, one of the questionsthat I posed to kaylin during
that conversation is, ifeverybody's just watching tv,
watching movies, listening tomusic, scrolling tiktok, who's?
You know?
How does society get built?
How does it maintain?
Who's doing that work?
Robots, right, well, we, yeahgo ahead.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Well, I think one of the interesting what you said,
todd, what I think is reallyinteresting is how we've evolved
and what the need.
So, like you know, we do coldplunges now because you know I
was joking the other day, I waslike a cold plunge used to be,
you had to use the restroom inthe middle of the winter, right
like you go outside, like, thinkabout so, the things that our

(07:27):
body has evolved and how we, thethings that make us survive I
think is what I kind of heardyou saying so some of those
harder things which were normalthings, which now you're saying
they're like, oh well, we canjust sit around and you know
we're going to watch tv or wecan play video games all day,
those innately are not going togive us satisfaction mentally,

(07:51):
those aren't going to keep usalive physically.
So there's something I'm seeinghere coming about where what
people had to do to survive isintrinsically wired into us to
living a more fulfilled life.
Wired into us to living a morefulfilled life.
Is that my and I would go asfar to say perhaps why we've
survived and lasted this long asa species?

(08:12):
So I think it's, you know, Ithink, what TJ is talking about
with the Wally comparison isbasically the orientation of
like the more dopamine thebetter, and I think that is it's
a it's a dangerous road to godown.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Like it masks, right, like the dopamine masks we were
talking earlier.
I just about a year ago.
It was a podcast AndrewHuberman did where they were
talking about the anteriormid-singlet cortex and I
mentioned that as we were kindof rolling into this particular
podcast.
And this is an area of thebrain that grows when you do
things you don't want to do.
And they were very specific toarticulate that it doesn't mean

(08:48):
hard things, it means somethingyou don't want to do.
If you you know all of us we'vetalked quite a bit about our
endurance journeys If we go outand we run four miles at a 10
minute pace, that's notsomething we don't want to,
that's not hard, right, that'sbecome enjoyable for us.
But if we do something that maybe a little bit more aggressive
, or we get on the treadmill torun a mile at 10 o'clock at
night to keep the streak going,and we don't want to do that,

(09:10):
that's when that part of thebrain grows.
And that part of the brain isinvolved in a lot of day-to-day
activities or exercises and it'sinvolved in helping us kind of
angle our focus and maintain ourfocus.
So it's a very important thingand so when you do hard things.
It grows when you don't, oryou're masking it with dopamine

(09:31):
hits by scrolling or looking athow many people liked or
commented on whatever post.
Ultimately, what you're doingand this is a little bit
anecdotal, but the connectionthey made is you're kind of
reducing your will to live andthe people that have the largest
parts of the brain are peoplethat restrict themselves on a
daily basis.
Sober people Every day.
It's a battle, right, you know.

(09:53):
I heard somebody make thecomment that it's great, like
there's a solution to beingsober.
The problem is it only worksfor a day and so every day, as
you push back against thosethings that are your demons,
you're continuing to grow thatpart of yourself.
And again, I think you knowthey say that the people who've
lived the longest that part oftheir brain is large and that's

(10:14):
again kind of that will to live.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
I mean, I think a lot of this can be simplified
enough to building psychologicalmomentum, and I think that's
what some of those moredifficult things or things you
don't want to do buildpsychological momentum.
I think you have a lot ofcoaches out there that say the
best way that you could possiblystart your day is to make your
bed, which is something verysimple that you don't want to do

(10:37):
, but it builds psychologicalmomentum and it sets a standard
of excellence for how you'regoing to go about your day, the
things that you're going to.
And personally, as someone whodoesn't make their bed, I can
see the implications of that.
But there are rare times that Ido or that I'm very thoughtful
and intentional and I'm dottingthe I's and crossing the T's on

(10:58):
the things that I don't want todo and I can see that compound
in my life on a daily basis todo, and I can see that compound
in my life on a daily basis.
And so, yeah, I do think a lotof this is about building that
psychological momentum, becausewhen you do the things that you
don't want to do, you break downa lot of psychological barriers
.
I think that I mean I can sayfor me personally, a lot of

(11:20):
things that probably make memore inefficient or struggle as
a human being is out of fear.
You know, I go back to the TonyRobbins thing.
If you think you can't, you mustright, and I think breaking
down a lot of thosepsychological barriers, breaking
down a lot of the fear, andbeing able to tackle those
things on a daily basis that youknow you can do, even if you

(11:41):
don't want to do it or you knowit's difficult, you know you can
do even if you don't want to doit or you know it's difficult,
I think just sets a tone and astandard of excellence that
prevents you or limits you fromshying away from things
throughout your day for onereason or another.
So what I hear you guys sayingmaybe you can talk on this for
some of the listeners is doinghard things and the way you

(12:06):
start your day.
How would you, how do youcurrently approach this on a
daily basis?
How do you kind of lean intothis?
What are some of the things youtalked about making your bed?
What are some of those thingsthat you would you try to do on
a daily basis to help grow thispart of your brain, to create

(12:27):
this type of momentum as you'vetalked about.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, I'm like anybody else.
I, you know.
I think we justify things, likeyou said, making the bet, why
would I do that?
I'm just going to mess it upagain, like you know, and I do
the same thing everybody elsedoes, you know waking up to get
the kids up at 6.30.
Justify, I don't need to dothat.
Tara can handle it.
My wife Tara can handle it.
That day or whatever.

(12:51):
What I do right now and I thinkwe'll talk about it in a
different episode I'm dealingwith some injuries and something
that I really don't like to dois physical therapy.
It's crazy monotonous.
It's really boring.
It's crazy monotonous, it'sreally boring.
It's the same exercises.
They don't provide anyresistance.
So there's not a real in themoment challenge and I have to
do them every day and it's likean hour and 15 minutes of some

(13:13):
of the most boring stuff youcould ever imagine.
But the way I do it is I have analarm set off at 1030 after
I've kind of gotten my daystarted that like there's no,
and I think this is a benefit ofthe way we were wired.
This came up in conversationwith our cousin last week.
Is that there is no?
No, there is no, not, there isno miss, it just has to get done

(13:35):
.
So you get down there, you getthat started and a lot of times
I do find that kind of catapultsme into more productivity in
the later part of the day whereit, as I'm coming back from this
injury, catapults me into moreproductivity in the fitness
realm.
So that's the way I start myday, it's not with something,
and I think that's a lot of thismisconception and we addressed

(13:56):
it in the fitness episode.
You don't have to start withsome monumentally crazy thing.
It doesn't have to be oh, I'mgoing from doing nothing to cold
plunging for seven minutes.
It could be something like thatyou just don't like doing and
then, once you've accomplishedit, it makes it that much easier
.
So I would encourage somebodyto find that.
I think I don't want to go toofar down the rabbit hole or

(14:18):
spend too much time rambling orwhatever.
But I think maybe we've talkedabout it in the book Atomic
Habits habits, where it's likestart small, you know, it's like
set your shoes out and stare atthem and you know, and
eventually get to that next stepand then get to that next step.
But you know, that's what I doon the days that I really I may

(14:38):
have a large thing in front ofme that I want to accomplish,
like a big workout.
Um, I'll start with somethingsmall, like physical therapy or
whatever, to kind of lead meinto that.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, I would say for me.
I have an A-B test on thisevery week.
I would first say, just ingeneral, exercise working out is
not something I particularlyenjoy.
Even running four miles at a 10minute pace, I do not enjoy
that, even though it's maybe notphysically exhausting.
And I would go as far to saythat the physical benefits I get

(15:14):
from working out every dayprobably pale in comparison to
the mental benefits because Idon't enjoy it.
But it again sets that tone itlets.
I think you know there have beentimes where it's been
characterized for me as, likeyour mind is going to tell you a
lot of things, what itshouldn't do.
It doesn't feel like doing.

(15:35):
You know who's in charge, and Ifeel like when you can send a
signal to your brain that you'renot going to follow its lead in
terms of what it's trying, thepath it's trying to lead you
down, which is more dopamine thebetter, then I think you change
the chemistry in your body, atleast temporarily, for how

(15:56):
you're moving about your day.
So I really exercise is probablyat the top of the list for me.
But I will say one thing that Iprobably despise even more than
that is waking up early andTuesday mornings we have
something called Track Tuesday.
A group of guys from church gettogether, we go out to the
local high school and we run at5.15 in the morning, pitch black

(16:18):
, and we run around the trackand say the rosary.
Most times and I absolutelylike Monday nights, I dread it.
But Tuesday at six in themorning, when it's done, I'm
absolutely on fire and we alljoke about like if you look at
the activity of the text threadsor the productivity of Tuesdays

(16:42):
relative to other days, it'sblack and white.
It's really stark contrast.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, I mean, you know I find that too.
Here's one thing I found.
You know I travel a lot.
There've been moments in mycareer where I haven't, but as
more recently I have been, andwhat I've found is that if I
wait so most of the time I'mtraveling out west and it's
typically a 6 or 7 am flight andI find that if I wait till I

(17:09):
get there and I check into thehotel and I go to the treadmill
or I go to the gym, it's kind ofa.
I try to get through it and I'mglad I finished it when it's
done.
But the difference between thatand waking up at 4, I've seen
you get on the treadmill at 345in the mornings and getting it
done at four and then getting onthe plane and flying across
country, like the productivity,the excitement yeah, I'm tired

(17:33):
at seven or eight o'clock atnight, but that's okay, you're
done with work by the day is somuch higher.
And so you know, 75% of thetime and again, I'm not perfect,
I don't do it 100% of the timeI don't want to go to bed at 7pm
and get up at four, but thosetimes that I do, I find that
it's really beneficial for thelatter part of the day.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
So I hear you both saying that in the morning, on
the days that you're committedto doing something that you
don't want to do, you said, well, it doesn't have to be
something necessarily hard, butsomething you don't want to do.
You said, well, it doesn't haveto be something necessarily
hard, but something you don'twant to do.
Doing something of that naturein the morning propels the rest
of your day from just a mentalstate 100%.

(18:13):
I would say a lot of this.
I've seen these.
You see these cliche quotes allthe time, and it's frustrating
to see them.
It's like what you do is whatyou become, and these things
that you never really canconnect the dots on.
But I actually have connectedthe dots a little bit on this.
I do find that you know, whenyou skip a workout, okay, the

(18:39):
next time you go to do a workoutit's that much easier to skip
it, and if you plow through adifficult workout, it's that
much easier to push through thenext time.
And so I actually do believethere is some truth to the
decisions you make and what youdo is what you become.
So my middle child has an issuewith impulse control.

(19:03):
He has red hair and he livesright into that stereotype and
impulses are something that justoverwhelms him and we've had
this conversation the other dayand as I was having this
conversation, I realized itapplied much more broadly and to
myself as well.
But if you think about ateeter-totter and you think
about every time you dosomething, you are putting a

(19:24):
rock on one side of theteeter-totter and you think
about every time you dosomething.
You are putting a rock on oneside of the teeter-totter and
when you give in to an impulseor a mental signal that's being
sent to do the easy thing, dothe weak thing, you are putting
a rock on that side of theteeter-totter and you're
becoming more like that.
If you do something that'sdifficult and you plow through
something, you're putting a rockon the other side of the

(19:47):
teeter-totter and honestly, on aday-to-day basis, if all that
you're doing is seeking thedopamine and looking for the
easy way out and looking for theshortcut, that literally is who
you're going to become.
I mean, I've found that in myexperience and I thought it was
just an interesting way tocharacterize it.
And I thought it was just aninteresting way to characterize

(20:08):
it.
I think there is some merit tothat.
Each decision that you make andevery action that you take on a
day-to-day basis is stickingwith you in some fashion.
Some may be more temporary thanothers.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
I think there's two things I'd like to explore here.
I think Trent and I over theyears not necessarily Todd have
had weight issues here and there.
It may not look like it now.
I was at one point 250, 260pounds, which is about 80 pounds
more than I am today, and soI've been through quite a few
diets and it was veryrollercoaster for me In high
school.
I started high school at 145,and then I ended high school at
225, but that was 225 with zeromuscle.
I had never worked out.
You know, I just would eat andeat and eat and then got in

(20:53):
shape in 2003, and then got downto 160-something, working out a
ton and lifting and whatever,and then back up to 250 with a
little bit more muscle that time.
But still really struggle withthis and it really resonated.
What you said, and I thinkyou've experienced the same
thing, is cheat days and it'slike you eat clean, you eat

(21:14):
clean, you know, and for methat's how things used to erode,
right.
So it'd be like all right,sunday's my cheat day and I'd
have a huge cheat day, and then,you know, the next week would
be well, I'll do a cheat 24hours.
So I'll start dinner onSaturday night and I'll cheat
through dinner and then I'llcheat till 7 pm the next day and

(21:36):
that's my cheat 24 hours.
And the next thing you know,it's you know what.
I'll just cheat for the weekendand by the end of it you're
like well, you know the finaljustification.
Well, at least I'm eatingbetter than I was right when
you're down to a day, or you'reeating a clean meal here or a
clean meal there.
Well, I'm not eating completecrap like I was, you know,
approaching this.

(21:56):
And all of a sudden, we knowhow finicky the body is when it
comes to calories in, caloriesout.
It's always much moreaggressive than you believe it
is, and we know that, especiallyas you enter your mid-30s,
mid-40s, mid-50s, whatever, youcan't outrun it.
And so you've completely, youknow, justified your way through

(22:18):
again, putting more rocks onthat other side of the
teeter-totter.
And all of a sudden, you're,you know, back to square one.
Great, you eat two clean mealsa day.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
It doesn't matter, it doesn't do anything well when
it gets harder to eat cleanthereafter.
I think the brain's a mastermanipulator it is a master
manipulator.
It's unbelievable.
I want to try.
I want to ask you a questionbecause I feel like you
experienced some of this, atleast the commentary that I um
observed from you.
You were talking about being upat the lake over the summer,
which is, you guys haveobviously dreamed of having this

(22:50):
for a long time.
And you wake up and you havethis beautiful setting and you
have basically whatever waterleisure at your fingertips and
you have all these things.
But you made some comments ofjust how hard it is to get
motivated in that environmentwhen you're just everything is
so convenient.
Talk to that a little bit,cause I think that's the other

(23:11):
side of this.
Well, I'll say a couple ofthings.
We spent a lot of time in thefirst episodes on community and
gamification, and I'd love totie that back to this as well.
So the only thing that saved methis last summer was the
running streak.
I'm terrified to stop.
Everybody stopped.

(23:33):
I'm the one standing at thispoint, for different reasons.
I'm afraid to stop because theminute I stop, I know what's
happening.
I refuse not to run every day.
This past summer was the firstsummer that I was up there
full-time Every day.
I knew I had to run and if Ididn't commit to getting that in

(23:55):
, I could have easily gone weekswithout putting in any exercise
.
But the latter of this is is Igot in better shape while I was
up there, because there's a lotof hills and the views are
better.
And just by committing to, andso my commitment to the
gamification, my commitment tothe community, is what kind of

(24:15):
kept me motivated.
But it was hard.
I mean food, lots of people,lots of drinks.
I mean just, there's alwayssomething going on and you talk
about having an excuse.
You can make an excuse if youhave nothing going on.
There was an excuse to missevery single day.
So I'll go back to my abilityto get through.

(24:36):
That was community andgamification.
And so, as we approach some ofthese mental decisions, how do
we incorporate that intocontinuing to put us in these
spots where, like, how do youbuild a community that wants to
do hard things, like trackTuesday, like you gotta be a
little bit crazy, at least intoday's world, and I'm and I'm I
think I'm dealing with thiswith with my kids as well as

(24:58):
like helping them build acommunity that doesn't want to
you know, play Roblox and buttonmash all day, that wants to get
out there and go for a run, orthat wants to compete in sports,
that wants to compete to buildout that muscle.
So I will just say that again,I'm not, I am afraid to quit
running, because I know that theyears prior was one day, went

(25:22):
into two days, went into threedays, and then I'd come back
with a six to eight miler, youknow, and then I'd do it again
and then I would take three orfour more days off.
So, uh, there's something tothat.
How great is it though?
Obviously I've ended my streak,but I will say, when you don't
have to determine whether or notyou're going to run and when
you're going to run in a givenweek, it's so much easier to go

(25:43):
out and get that run in.
It's like, again, you'reputting a rock on one side of
that teeter-totter every day andit's so easy to go out and run
right now.
Once you stop, then you'rerunning.
You know whether it's three tofour times or five to six times.
I think there's a balance there.
But even I know I spend a lotof mental energy.
It's like, okay, should I runtoday, should I not run?

(26:06):
And how far?
And da-da da, da, when you'rerunning every day, it's just
like you're not using any mentalenergy there.
Yeah, one of the things that Iheard someone say is is it's
like it's easier to fast thanjust to diet, right like once
you get through the first forsure 24 hours and you get to the
times where there's like a 15minute window where you're

(26:26):
hungry and then, once it passes,you find something to do.
But it's it's, it's a hundredpercent.
I don't think about, and so I'mdropping rocks on the other
side from my runs and it's noteven a decision point.
It's not like you said.
It's like if you can get enoughof those things in your life to
where you're committed and youhave the right things in place
and, like I, do these things,whether that's make your bed,
whether that's run, you don't.

(26:47):
You don't waste the mentalenergy and the fight, the mental
fight of like should I not,should I, should I not?
And so there's so much, and Ithink this goes back to
relationships and people is alot of the purpose of why we're
here anyways and how we canbuild communities around that.
I guess I have a question forboth of you, because I think a

(27:08):
lot of people are, you know,maybe thinking okay, yeah, it's
better to do hard things, butlike, mentally, how do I get
there to do things I don't want?
But like, how do I get there?
And so you guys have obviouslyhad a ton of experience doing
things you don't want, tj, otheryou, especially the amount of
workouts that you do in therunning intensity and putting in
over 3000 miles a year, and alot of those miles are
high-intensity training.

(27:29):
I mean to look at where youwere when you started your
running journey and theperformance that you have now.
Like what would you tell peopleor any tips and tricks of like
how to get on the other side ofthat and obviously it doesn't
happen overnight but like, whatcan people do to chip away at
being more open to and excitedabout and finding a way to tip

(27:51):
the scales to do that hard thingor the thing that they don't
want to do?

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Well, there are two things for me, and one of them
is community.
But we'll start where.
For me, when I originallykick-started this and this is
back in 03, maybe even 02, I hadanother reason.
There was an ex-girlfriend atthe time and I was woefully out
of shape and we look back atpictures with we're standing out

(28:18):
in front of the house inWashington.
We lived in Redmond Washingtonat the time and I'm huge and it
was a like I used that extrinsicmotivation, like I'm going to
prove this person wrong and thatwas what got me kickstarted.
And then, once you know and Iencourage anybody you know to
use anything you can find Onceyou get through and it's similar

(28:41):
to the comment about fasting,even though it's a little bit
longer period that first coupleof weeks, that first six weeks,
that first eight weeks, and youstart to see a little bit of
definition and you lose four orfive or six pounds.
The next thing you know that'sall you need.
You know the extrinsic to getyou jump-started.
And then, when it comes to, youknow, and then for me, I built
so much confidence going throughthat process that when running

(29:02):
did come, it's like all right, Iknow I can do this.
I've seen physiologicaladaptations take place in the
bodybuilding world and in theweightlifting world.
We're talking about going fromsomebody who could not rep the
bar to somebody who could grab120-pound dumbbells and rep them
for 10 on an incline, decline,flat bench, it didn't matter.

(29:24):
So huge improvements there.
And then you build thatconfidence that, okay, I can
execute this again.
But the other piece of thepuzzle is surrounding yourself
with those people, and I've beenreally lucky that you guys have
both been open to you know.
Well, I guess it's interesting,right, you were the one that
kind of pulled me back in to theendurance thing in 2012 after

(29:45):
having done a marathon in 2007.
And I think that's important.
I want to jump back to thatvery quickly.
Consistency is so key and yousaid that you know, with the
streak, that's huge.
You know so many people do onehard thing and like that's it
scratches the itch.
Somebody said something theother day one of the two of you

(30:07):
about the old treadmillcommercial with the clothes
hanging on it right, likebecause so many people, it's
just one and done.
You pulled me back in and thenyou got into this and now I have
two brothers that do it, andthen you know, one of my best
friends moved back fromPittsburgh and he was into
endurance sports and he's socialin the endurance community.

(30:29):
So all of a sudden he's meetingpeople just randomly out on
runs and seeing people in hiscommunity and connects, and
connects, and connects.
And then all of a sudden youknow the three of us, or the
four of us, um is MTC, which isover a hundred strong.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
What I think is interesting and I'm going to
pivot a little bit because Ithink we spend a lot of time on
running, because that's us butthis, I think, can translate
whether you're cycling, I knowthere's local cycling clubs.
I know there's a lot ofdifferent places.
There's Orange Theory Fitness,and they track by how many times
you've gone.

(31:05):
And there's for women, likePure Bar, you've gone, and
there's, you know, for women,like pure bar.
There's like there's probablymore opportunities now to find a
community.
It could be a pickleball club,it could be a guys that get
together at 6am and playbasketball, um, and so I would
encourage people that I thinkyou can find your community and

(31:26):
for whatever it is you want todo, or you're passionate about
doing, or you maybe want tolearn to do something new and
not to be afraid to put yourselfout there, because in every
single thing that you do in life, just like when we started this
podcast, you're gonna suckright, like there's gonna be an
element of like I'm not verygood, I'm the worst in the room,

(31:47):
or I can barely keep up, or I'mnot in the best shape, or I'm
embarrassed by the way I look orfeel, or I don't want to get
hurt.
There's an element of that andeverything I remember when I
first started running.
It was my knees.
My knees bothered me.
I'd come home and I had thosebig ice packs.
I even bought special ones andfor six months I would suffer
through getting done and myknees hurt.

(32:09):
And then something happened myknees got stronger, like there
there's a.
I know people say when you runtoo much, your knees get worse,
and that's probably there is apoint.
It's like tires, but I wasn'tdoing anything at all.
That was strengthening my bodyand I haven't had any knee
problems, knock on wood, in Idon't know years.

(32:30):
So there is a community outthere for anything that you want
to do, and I even know in thesmall town that I'm from that
there's tons of communities andthere's tons of opportunities.
So I would encourage you tofind those people.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
You touched on something, too that I think is
important is you're going tojustify and excuse your way out
of anything.
Like you said, todd the mind'sa master manipulator.
There really is, and this isgoing to sound harsh.
There's no excuse.
There isn't, and I know that,and we see this a lot, and I
won't tie it back because I'veseen it in every different
fitness endeavor that we've beenon, and whether that's a game

(33:08):
like basketball, football,soccer, whatever, or you know
something else, that's moreexercise related, you, your
brain, will convince you that,like you said, you're too slow,
you're too weak.
You know, um, look at planet,fitness, their entire mo is.
We're not going to let peopleshame you, which is interesting
to me because, to be honest, Idon't think that ever existed to

(33:31):
begin with.
I don't think there ever was,you know, and if it was, it was
probably fairly juvenile.
I could see, you know, me andmy teens maybe, making fun of
somebody who's bigger, uh, on atreadmill or whatever, but like
from an adult perspective.
You know, we we hear it all thetime um, I don't want to, I
don't want to exercise with youor run with you because I'm too

(33:52):
slow.
I'll slow you down, dude, Idon't care, and I think the
people that are at the elitelevel in their sports period, if
they aren't doing something intheir home gym or with their
elite level team and they're ata YMCA, they're like it's cool.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
The brain has fabricated that, it's
self-inflicted to your point,and that's why that message
probably resonates with peopleis because, even though it's not
necessarily out there beingpushed onto people, they're
self-inflicting and they have a,you know, a fear of that image,
which is why I think itresonates.
I wanted to come back tosomething that you said about
failure and embracing failure.

(34:33):
When we talk about doing thingsyou don't want to do, or doing
difficult things, that'sabsolutely part of it.
It's not just that particularthing, but even your mind is
going to fight you, puttingyourself in a position where you
are going to visibly fail, andso that is another example of
something where your brain isnot going to want you to do that

(34:55):
, but embracing that failure,and I saw a meme the other day
that was just like that yourfirst, whatever, you're going to
be horrible, your first, this,your first that, your first.
That it is, it's going to bebad, and if you're intentional
about it and you work on it, buteven that ability to that
vulnerability which I think youknow as I've gotten older, is

(35:15):
probably one of the mostunderrated characteristics is
vulnerability, your willingnessto put yourself out there and be
vulnerable and fail and learn,because that's the only way you
learn, especially in new areas,and you can only develop so much
skill in private until you'regoing out and you're working on

(35:35):
things and developing things.
But I just thought that was areally good clarification that
that being willing to fail isalso a huge, huge part of this.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
It's so funny because it's so counter that behavior,
so countered.
Like you think of raising yourkids.
You're spending all your timeconvincing them that it's okay,
like, go out there on the field,it's okay.
And then you know, I'm lookingat myself, my kids.
We talked about gaming in apast episode.
They all play Fortnite and Ifind myself, as trivial as it

(36:06):
sounds and as funny as it is, Idon't want to play this certain
game mechanic because I'm notany good.
And I think you see that as youget older, if you're not careful
, you start to specify and youmiss out on so much.
And we see that in ourselves.
We see that, I think, a lot inour parents.

(36:26):
Like dad, we're at his house,maybe he'll listen to this,
maybe he won't, but he's reachedthat point in life where he is
specified and he does what hewants to do and that's it.
And I think you miss out on alot by not doing that.
Yet here we are.
He'll sit there and we'll sitthere and he'll go to his
grandkids and say you need totry this.
You and you're absolutely right.
Like vulnerability, like, yeah,okay, I'll play Fortnite with

(36:50):
builds.
I know I can't build buildingsas fast as you kids, and it's
going to make me feel, you know,insignificant when I used to be
a phenomenal gamer, but youknow you're never.
You know I'm missing out onexperiencing that with them
again in balance, um does that?

Speaker 1 (37:05):
uh does?
Does that mean you're going totry surfing this year?

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Sure, but that's a great point.
I've justified away fromsurfing every year.
I don't want to get hurt.
My feet, my races, at the endof the day.
If my kids Kalen's kind ofstarted to figure it out, your
kids do it and it would be, youknow.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
I've got up.
It took me a while, but I didget up.
It's great when you get up,isn't it?
Yeah, but you had to be willingto fall and fall, and fall and
fall and it's no fun, especially.
This is a great example,because there's nothing worse
feeling.
And when you have 10 people ona boat and one person is falling
all the time, but, like as theboat driver, like I'm like this,

(37:48):
this is, I'll sit down and belike, hey, you're going to fall
10 times and I want you to knowit's okay, no one on the boat
cares, you're not wasting ourtime.
Like it's, it's good, likeyou're going to fall.
You got to get a feel.
There's like three steps.
You got to feel this and thenyou feel this and then you're
going to be up and nobody on theboat cares.
But when you're the person inthere and you keep falling, it
is like you know you want to getout of there as soon as

(38:11):
possible because everyone'shaving to wait on you.
And I do think there'ssomething to when you can
control the environment a littlebit and have a little bit of a
safer space.
I think it helps.
Like when I tried it, it was me, you and Roman.
Yeah Right, nobody was thereand it was like an evening and
as it was like, well, if there'sgoing to be a time to learn,
it's going to be now.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yeah, and so Well, no , you think about what made you
look back.
I think we're all fortunateenough to still be in contact
with people we've met throughoutour lives, especially with
technology, whether it's highschool friends, college friends,
whoever and I look at what mademy childhood and the stuff that
gets brought up we'll talkabout that in a different
podcast on like the thread withmy high school guys.

(38:51):
It's doing those things thatnever in a million years we'd
try.
Now you know, hey, I jumped offthe high rope swing before it
was submitted into the ground,or, like you, just chances that
you don't take nowadays because-Set the driveway on fire.
Yeah, set the driveway on.
Like those are the things, thethings that were out there that
were scary, that like there's noway who would pour gasoline

(39:13):
onto a driveway, like you know,the the flames are going to come
back up in the can and explode,and it almost did one time.
But like we look back, and thatwas I'm not encouraging anyone
or their kill to explain thatthere was ice on the basketball
court.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
You guys wanted to play basketball and you were
trying to burn off the ice, soit was a playable surface.
So, instead of which, it worked, but then it was soaking wet
and the basketball got justsopping wet.
But we did play, we did alittle while, but then you
couldn't.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
It wasn't well thought out, but it was fun yeah
, but the point being is, likethose are the things, and I
think the the other thing too is, the better you get at certain
things.
I think that goes back to yourpoint with surfing.
Like you get to an elite levelor sub elite level or very
competitive level and you don'twant to do other things Cause
it's like, oh, I feel so good,and we mentioned this from a
status perspective.

(39:58):
I don't want my status to reset.
I'm this guy at this part of mylife or this guy in this part
of my life and, god forbid, Ihave to give that status up.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
But that that is such a good point because we live
with that with our kids.
Like I remember when Hadley wasin gymnastics and she got to
here and she was the best atthis level.
But then to get to the nextlevel, you have to learn new
tricks Right.
And so at each level of evenwith surfing, where I can go in
and out of the wake pretty good,I want to do a 360, but the
time it's going to take me tolearn to do a 360, it's going to

(40:29):
have to go out there andRoman's gonna have to drive the
boat and I'm gonna have to tryand try, and I've watched videos
and I thought I could hire aguy to come in and teach me.
There's something I'm still notdoing right, um, but like I
don't want to do that in frontof people because I, I want to
be the I want to be.
So there's, there's somethinghere with humility and
vulnerability I think we shouldspend some time on.
That's not our natural place togo, no, but it's the way out,

(40:53):
it's the only way out.
And like when you talk aboutlearning things and you know
some of the most successfulpeople and this could be even in
the spiritual realm as well.
They figured out how to learnand part of that is being able
to live and lean into the painof not being great at something
and being willing to, there notbeing that psychological barrier

(41:14):
.
Okay, I've got to now learn newtricks, I've got to do a learned
approach.
I've got to learn this newskill, I've got to be an expert
in this new topic.
When there's no psychologicalbarriers to that, I mean you're
put in that position, I meanthroughout life, on a daily
basis, and if you hesitate everytime to develop that new skill
or learn that new set of tricksor put yourself back into that
place where you're at the bottomof the barrel, I think it just

(41:38):
really compounds in a negativeway.
I've never found a time where Iwas vulnerable and the minute I
kind of said I'm not good atthis or kind of openly admitted
that to where I've been made funof, right, it's like when
you're trying to be good ortrying to like, there's that
mental thing.
But the minute you're just likeI'm not great at this, I'm just
going to tell you I'm going tocome out and try and I'm just
going to give it my best, it'slike it kind of takes the

(41:59):
pressure away.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
I think you know a lot of what.
What drives that is what?
Because, as children, there'sno confidence.
Nobody has self-confidence atthat point, and so
self-confidence is gained viaputting others down.
So when you're kids, that doeshappen right, that does happen
right away.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, one of the things I just wanted to go back
to.
You know what people can do andI know not everyone's
goal-oriented.
My mantra I may have mentionedthis in previous episodes is
goals breed habits and habitsbreed change.
So you talk about running,right, you set this goal of
running a day every year and nowyou've got a habit that,
mentally, is keeping you in thegame.
I have found recently I wasdoing a class and they

(42:44):
introduced a concept called goalstacking, where you start with
annual goals or even goals thatare beyond that, maybe what you
want to be in three, five, 10years.
But you really look into thatand the way I've set those goals
is almost looking back andsaying you know, what could I
accomplish at that point?
That I would, as I look at now,would be like, wow, this would

(43:05):
be a phenomenal year If I coulddo X, y and Z, accomplish X, y
and Z, become X, y and Z, likethis would be a phenomenal year
or decade or whatever it happensto be, and that starts to then
be able to be broken down.
Well, if I want to be that atthe end of the year and then at
the end of six months, I want tobe here, and at the end of a

(43:27):
month I want to be here.
At six months I want to be here, and at the end of a month I
want to be here.
At the end of this week I needto be here in order to
accomplish that.
What that goal stacking does isit really builds a lot of
intrinsic motivation, becausewhen you think about, okay, I've
got to make my bed this morningor I need to go out and work
out this morning, it starts tobecome connected to something
larger.
It's like I really don't wantto do this.

(43:48):
But gosh, if I ran 1,000 milesthis year, if I ran 500 miles
this year, if I worked out for365 hours this year, an hour a
day, like gosh, that's going tobe such a great accomplishment
and I'm going to feel so good.
So I think, for those who aremore goal oriented, I think that

(44:11):
can really help jumpstart.
And then, as you mentioned,trent, to gamification.
This sounds really silly but asI've, I used to break.
I had a year probably my bestyear yet where I was a grown ass
man, 36 year olds, putting 36years old, putting stickers on a
chart.
But I bought this daily chartand I had the stickers that I

(44:35):
had made said you won the dayand I would set three priorities
for the day, and it wasn'talways the things that I wanted
to do, but it was the threepriorities that got me closest
to achieving my goals for thatparticular day.
That then bled into the weekand the month and the year and
if I got those three done, I gota sticker for the day and I had
this chart walked right in mybedroom, I put the sticker up

(44:55):
and there was this satisfaction.
Again, it's small, silly,ridiculous things that get you
over the hump.
So that's what I would say is,when you're looking at getting
over the hump, there's no silverbullet, there's no big thing.
You want to talk aboutvulnerability, like ordering a
bunch of stickers as a36-year-old to put on a chart
that people could visibly seewalking in.
I don't know what Jenna thoughtabout that.

(45:19):
I still haven't really talkedto her about it.
She probably thought I wascrazy, but that was part of it.
It's like gosh, I got to getthis done so I can get my
sticker for the day and I thinkprobably 250 of the 360 days.
I got a sticker, but it's asmall thing, so don't
underestimate the small things.
You know they talk even in theNFL and some of the elite sports

(45:39):
.
The line between you knowsuccess and failure can be a
very, very fine line, and youknow you got to embrace the
details and take what you can.
You mentioned bellatro.
I was just watching a youtubevideo about how a guy beats
these high level, very difficultlevels, and it's about

(46:00):
minimizing and maximizingeverything it's.
It is is paying attention tothe details and and getting
everything that you can out ofit.
So, um, I'll leave it at that.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Just for everybody, really quickly, bellatro is a
card game, uh, where you curatea deck.
I know we've mentioned it acouple of times.
Look it up, it is game of theyear.
Um, it's wild.
But, uh, you know.
One thing I wanted to mention,just kind of going back through
my phone, because I think thisis super relevant.
This could be a much, muchlarger conversation topic, so
I'll just say it in the contextof this conversation.

(46:33):
But we perceive through theaccordance of our aim, and that
kind of harkens back to exactlywhat you were talking about.
If you set your aim onsomething, everything you
perceive on a daily basis is inaccordance with that, and you
can take that as elementary asyou want.
If you're a track runner, yousee a track in a different way
than somebody else does.
It could just be a rubbercircle to them, and so I think,

(46:56):
like you said, setting an aimand it doesn't have to be we're
not saying that you have to goout there and spend 15 minutes
doing everything under the sunto do hard things.
You don't have to do an icebath one morning and then sauna
the next and then you know, um,orange theory the next day, or
pure bar the next day, maybe itis for that particular year.

(47:17):
Specificity around one thing,and it's okay.
I'm going to learn this at thebase level and then I'm going to
layer on this and I'm going tolayer on this.
One of the things that keeps memotivated you asked about high
intensity work that I do isdifferent scientific approaches
to things.
So I've tried this approach andthis worked this way.
Okay, now I'm going to do this.
First it was I'm just going tolay down miles and then, all

(47:38):
right, I'm going to do heartrate training, and then I'm
going to measure my lactate andnow it's heat training and it's
this.
So it's these things that I'venever done before, that I
probably won't nail the firsttime.
It'll probably take me a couplemonths, but I have that I
mentioned earlier confidence,having accomplished it six,
seven, eight different times nowto try these things that I may

(48:00):
not implement the correct way orthat may.
You know that people may andagain, this is probably the mind
, because I do think it's youknow that people.
But there is this, thisperception that, oh, people are
going to look at my Strava andbe like this guy, what is he
doing?
You know this guy's ridiculousAt the end of the day.
Even if they do it and I knowthere's, there are conversations

(48:21):
like that.
Like you said, nobody's evergoing to come to your face in
any of these scenarios and saylike, oh, you're this.
There may be conversationsbehind your back, but the more
confidence you built throughaccomplishing these things, the
less that's going to matter toyou.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Yeah, I don't think anybody.
I think if you don't focus onthat stuff, you just don't care.
Yeah, I just wouldn't, you know.
What's interesting is we'vetalked about all the suffering
and all the different things andthe correlation is is suffering
, doing hard things providestrue fulfillment and

(48:56):
satisfaction, like when you getdone, you've never finished a
workout and said I wish Iwouldn't have done that, right?
So like there's thatcorrelation on the other side,
the things that we do that wefeel like are going to bring
long-term joy.
We should spend some time there.
So one of the things that I'verealized is and I call it

(49:19):
worldly success the more thingsI have, the more things I buy,
the more things I accumulate.
The more things I buy, the morethings I accumulate.
I used to correlate a happinesswith those things, right, so
the conveniences in life as theygot easier.

(49:41):
There was this dream, there wasthis like walk out of my porch
at the lake house and it's justlike, ah, I just look at the
water and it just, it's justbeautiful, right, and it's just
that's.
And then you sit there for like30 seconds and I'm like, okay,
now it's time to get up and gorun or let's go do something
like that innate thing to keep,keep moving.

(50:04):
Have you guys found in your lifethe things that you're chasing
after?
Let's call them more worldlythings, or conveniences or
vacations?
Where have you found, wherehave you been searching for and
where have you found it?
And have you guys had similarexperiences to where, no matter
what I buy or what I get or whatI accumulate, it really doesn't

(50:27):
make me any happier long-termand, frankly, it makes me
probably go the other way,because there's twice as many
things that can go wrong in mylife.
I always laugh.
It's like, with two homes andsix refrigerators and several
cars, there's something alwaysbroken in my life.
There's the boats, the jet skis.

(50:48):
Something is literally brokenevery day, something is, it's
deteriorating, and so you couldalmost argue that the more stuff
you have, the more yeah, thetougher life is, or the more
disappointment for things thatare going to go wrong each day.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I'm going to go back to a quotethat I think I referenced

(51:09):
earlier, which is happiness isreality minus expectations.
So I've found exactly whatyou're saying to be 100% true.
The more conveniences I have inmy life, the more that can go
wrong, period, and I think wesee that as a society, and I
remember having thisconversation with my boys when

(51:31):
they weren't being as gratefulas I would have liked them to be
.
I spent 30 minutes with themand we wrote down 150
expectations that they have andagain, I'm no better, I mean
living in the environment welive in relative to several

(51:52):
hundred or several thousandyears ago.
150 expectations within thefirst 30 minutes of the day you
wake up.
You want to feel good, right,you don't want to have some sort
of ailment, you don't wantsomething to be sore.
You wake up and you want to beable to have hot water and you
want that hot water to comequickly.
You don't want to have hotwater and you want that hot
water to come quickly.
You don't want to have to waittoo long for that hot water.

(52:12):
And you want to make sure youwant to have shampoo and you
want to have all the hygienestuff that you need to get ready
for the day.
And then you know I mean justthe amount of things that rely
on electricity and because youknow we've gone down to the
dominican, you don't always haveelectricity that that's spotty.
But then you think about eachof the things that you use on a
daily basis.

(52:32):
And even when you get in thecar right, you get in the car
and you want people to go thespeed that you're going right,
so you want them to break thespeed limit and make sure
they're going fast enough thatyou're not having to go slow,
but you also want them to makesure they're following all the
other rules of the road ofturning, using their turn signal
or whatever.
And you think about how manypeople you're interacting with

(52:54):
on the road and how manyexpectations you have.
I mean it's mind boggling.
There are thousands andthousands that's not an
overstatement at allExpectations that you have on a
daily basis for things aroundyou.
That is stealing your joy.
I mean, that's not even some ofthat is not even speaking to
the material things, but that'sa thousand percent.
The case, at least I found inmy life, the more material

(53:16):
things we've accumulated, themore that there is underneath
right and I think that's goingto continue to happen as a
society is that you know, thinkabout the conveniences of the
phone and the internet and likethe quickness, the expected
response, response times, and weused to get on 56k modem and
you had three or four minutesbefore you even connected and
let alone getting theinformation.
But now all of that is wired inas expectations and it

(53:39):
continues to steal the joy andand it's uh, it's it's gonna be
a really hard thing for us toturn around as a society yeah,
well, you mentioned somethingabout like, is there anything
you've?

Speaker 2 (53:49):
And it's interesting, you know I would.
Something popped into my headbecause you guys have
experienced something veryspecifically that is a complete.
This is tough because it mayrequire you to throw your
families under the bus, but youboth been to Walt Disney world
Um, you very recently actuallyand you've both been there in

(54:10):
two completely separatecapacities last January, right,
and then, and even during thatparticular visit, in and of
itself, the morning wassomething, the afternoon was
something, and you know you talkabout.
Have you found anythingfulfilling?
I would love some.
You know you can explain whatI'm talking about first of, but
some like retrospective on.

(54:31):
Well, if I look back at theweek and I did this in the
morning and this at night thismaybe holds more weight for me,
or I got this out of this and Igot this out of that.
I'd be interested to hear yourperspective on those two things,
cause it was, it's it'sinteresting.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Yeah, so we did.
We did dopey.
Um, for those of you that don'tknow, uh, dope, disney has a
marathon weekend where they havea 5k, the next day a 10 K, the
next day a half marathon and thenext day a full marathon, and
they let certain.
I think they sell what 600 bibs, or I don't remember how many
bibs, but there's a limitednumber of bibs.

(55:07):
You can sign up and you coulddo dopey, which is mean you do
all four and you do all fourback to back to back to back,
and so you talk about hardthings.
It started with getting up atthree 30 in the morning to catch
the bus.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Thank goodness we didn't know about that because,
honestly, if I had known we hadto get up at 3.30 in the morning
, four days in a row, I probablywouldn't have done it.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
And then we each had a kid with us and we took those
kids to the park all day.
And so the mornings were, youknow, the first.
The 5 and the 10K were prettyeasy.
And then you're spending, youknow, six to ten hours in the
park, probably doing anotherfive to six miles walking around
and Disney's interestingbecause of the waiting in lines

(55:49):
and the fast passes and liketrying to get on, you know, tron
.
And so there's, there's anelement there of like you got to
get up.
You know, as soon as we gotback from our run we had our
phone, cause at 5.00 AM you hadto enter the queues to kind of
make those things happen.
Uh, but I think your questionis is where did I find more joy
or fulfillment?
In the park or in the run?
Is that?

Speaker 2 (56:07):
yeah, I mean, is that kind of the balance of both?

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Um, I found it in both.
Actually it was nice because Idon't feel like I think there
are times that I run it tootight.
Um, but I think I was able tofind joy in in everything we did
.
Um, there was the bigaccomplishment with Dopey.
That was a lot of fun.
It's like again, probably oneof those things I'll never do

(56:31):
again.
But it was good to havecommunity, to be a part of it
and to train up for it.
But it was also a reallyspecial time, kind of one-on-one
with the kids, and the timethat we spent in the park.
Yeah, I would just say I thinkthe enjoyment, the leisure of
the park day was just a littlemore fleeting.
I think it was a little moretemporary.
I mean, I still kind of holdsome of the satisfaction from

(56:51):
the dopey and what we've donethere, but I think it's the
sustainability of that joy isdifferent.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
So there's two things that keep popping back up in my
head.
One of them is when I thinkabout Disney and you talked
about more things, more problems, and you talked about all of
these expectations we have andyou look at something like that
and how complex a vacation likethat has become.
I mean, you know, to avoid thecomplexity of a Disney vacation,
you know it's impossible.

(57:20):
Well, and if you do, it's tensof thousands of dollars for a
single family.
You're going to spend 20 or 30grand.
So for most people it's thisabsolute and I think for us, the
way we're wired, there's aportion of that.
You reference it by sayingsometimes I run things too tight
.
I think my wife in specificI'll speak for myself hates that
because I just thrive, and Iknow you do.

(57:42):
You do you know in like howtight can we, you know,
configure this so that we, likea lot of the excitement that I
get from these vacations is likeall right, bam, bam, bam, bam,
bam bam.
And because of the expectationsthat have been set, I'm like,
you know, fast pass didn't work,I was up at 701 and I was in it
and then that that frustrationcomes.

(58:02):
So you know, I'd love somethoughts about the different
types of things.
You do a lot of quarterly stuffwith your boys it's way removed
from like a Disney trip and youdo a lot of different things.
You guys go to a lot ofdifferent places.
I'd love some perspective onyou know, in terms of
entertainment, what you found tobe more entertaining, is it?

(58:25):
You know there's plenty ofpeople out there huge Disney
families.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Maybe they figured out how itworks for them.
But if you found certainleisurely activities to be a
little bit more fulfilling whenthere's maybe less intricacy
involved, it gets, it getstricky and difficult.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
I'll just say this briefly and then go ahead and
jump in, because you'rebalancing several things.
You're balancing your ownenjoyment and fulfillment short
term and long term, and thenyou're balancing your kids'
fulfillment short term and longterm.
And I think a lot of this comesdown to how you're oriented to

(59:06):
Great Wolf Lodge a few differenttimes and it's got it's.
It's not Disney, but it's alongthose lines.
There's a arcade in there,there's the water slides,
there's the candy shop, there'slike the bowling alley and
there's a lot of mentalstimulation.
And so I would say for mesometimes it depends and you
kind of walk these things backand forth and you balance.
But for me there's probably alot of different answers to that

(59:29):
question, based on how you'reoriented or what you're seeking.
Trent, you were going to jumpin.
Yeah, I would say.
The things that we're doing,that, I would think, where we're
spending a lot of money andgoing to the games and running
around and getting food, thoseare probably not the things.
Those are the things that causeme more stress.
But as we grew up, we werewired to like be the best get to

(59:53):
go to those things and, um,where I think we find more joy
is my wife appreciates justrelaxing and, uh, recently we
went to a concert and it wasgreat, like we, we went and took
the kids to see Billy Joel andand it was, it was a really good
time.
So there, I think the thingsthat I'm finding that our kids

(01:00:14):
find more joy is sitting aroundplaying games, having more, and
they're they're going toremember that, I think when we
sit down and play sequence orsome of those other board games,
more than they are some of theother things that we have to,
you know, go fast, run a lot,they're all planned out.
They're a lot of travel, becauseI mean, when you think about,

(01:00:34):
like, if we're going to a Coltsgame, for us it's an hour and a
half drive, or two, two hours,and then there's parking and
then there's getting in at theend of the day.
My younger kids aren't superinterested in football.
They'd rather go to the proshops and they want to go to the
I want to buy something, youknow, or you go to the store and
you can buy something for 10times what you could on Amazon,

(01:00:55):
but it's part of the experience.
So I think for us it's justmore of slower pace, easy going,
and then it's hard to findsomething that all the kids like
.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Right, we have four, four different kids and they all
like different things, so Ithink that's an interesting
perspective, just, you know,because there are things that we
we talked about, I thinkepisode four, different
lifestyle choices.
There are things we don't haveaccess to right, that you know
we just never will, but that wehave been fortunate enough in a
lot of circumstances toexperience certain things.

(01:01:25):
I think it's a nice perspectiveto understand.
I think, looking back for usgrowing up, we probably remember
most of the stuff we rememberwas leisure around the house and
then we went to Florida a lot,but it was very chill, like
playing basketball not going toDisney, that's what we remember
hanging out at the pool or theocean and the friends that we

(01:01:46):
had down there and things likethat.
So, um, again, that's not tosay that a particular type of
vacation or particular type ofleisure is suited, you know, for
for that um, type of person.
But I think I don't know, youknow kind of putting a bow on it
, finding something thatscratches that itch, I guess, in

(01:02:09):
terms of I don't know thisagain, kind of go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
No, that kind of scratches that itch on both
sides of the fence.
I think we do have a tendencyto optimize too much and want to
find the perfect vacation thatticks all those boxes or the
perfect hard thing that ticksall those boxes.
But finding whatever works foryou and being consistent with it
and being reasonable with itand understanding that you know

(01:02:34):
it may not be the most expensivething or the hardest thing on
the other side of it thatfulfills you, just start
exploring.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Since you asked that question, I've been trying to
think about what vacation we'veenjoyed the most or what types
of vacations and, honestly alittle bit of a different spin
on it, it's probably the oneswhere we've done the best job at
managing expectations and Ithink you'll find with the more
leisurely vacations there'sfewer expectations to manage, so
that happens more naturally.
But we have had times wherewe've had really good times at

(01:03:06):
like, a disney or something else.
But it's required us to be veryintentional about managing
expectations and this is so, soimportant at home.
We've been running into issueswith this recently at home where
I think that's one of thethings that, again, expectations
are just so, so, so important.
It's probably an an entireepisode in and of itself at some
point, but I think for kids whohave grown up in today's

(01:03:29):
society, it's very, verydifficult to the stimulation and
the things that they're facedwith, like, let's talk at Disney
World, the number of gift shopsthat they're going to walk
through and there's potentiallygoing to be something to buy,
the number of dessert thingsthat they're going to walk past
and potentially be able to, orthe number of activities that
they're going to be advertisedin front of them that they could

(01:03:51):
do.
There are so many triggers forthem and naturally, as kids like
you're going to want to do thatstuff and if you haven't
managed the expectations aheadof time, it's a nightmare
because it's no, no, no, no,like, do you know how much money
we spent being here at Disney?
Like, then the travel here andthe hotel, and you know, and,
da-da-da, you're so ungrateful,which is a natural reaction.

(01:04:13):
But it's completely unfairbecause, of course, if there are
other things that are enticingand tempting, they're going to
have a desire to do that.
When you tell them no, that'sgoing to be a negative
experience.
But if you sit down in themorning and you say, hey, here's
the deal, you've got twodesserts today, you can have one
after lunch and you can haveone after dinner.
Or hey, you've got $40.

(01:04:33):
This was something that we didthat worked really well last
time we went to Disney and Falls.
Like, you have $40 on these,you know, for these two parks
and $40 for this park, andthat's it, and you can walk
through and whatever.
Look, but they knew they've got$40.
That completely changes theexperience.
Again, very small thing, thatcompletely changes the

(01:04:55):
experience.
So I would go back to sayingwhere we have been able to set
expectations, and again on amore relaxing vacation.
That happens more naturallybecause there's not as much to
manage, and that's what I think.
Sometimes those, those can feeleasier.
It's about the journey, right.
It's like I remember when weused to go visit grandma and we

(01:05:16):
used to drive down there.
We'd look outside and play, I'dspy, and now it's.
You know, kids want enoughscreen time to distract till
they get there.
But I think when you can, wecan keep their attention long
enough and make sure that weenjoy every step of the journey,
because a lot of times thedestination isn't the, isn't the
excitement, right, because youget to the game or you get to
the Disney and you hit the ride,and then it's like back to your

(01:05:38):
point what's next, what's next,what's next?
And, as we found, is that's abottomless well of emptiness.
Like you, there's just there.
You go down this hole of what'snext, what's next, and no
matter how much you accumulateor how much you do, if you can't
enjoy the journey along thatprocess, it doesn't lead to

(01:05:58):
anything.
So let me ask you a question,uh, just to kind of trigger a
little bit of debate here.
So I think what's interestingabout that like I think there
are a lot of people that areoriented that way enjoy the
journey, right.
It's kind of about the amount ofentertainment or enjoyment that
you have if you're looking atthe end game, right, and you're

(01:06:19):
on your deathbed at 85 and it'slike how much did I enjoy life,
right, and you're on yourdeathbed at 85, and it's like
how much did I enjoy life, right?
And it's interesting because Ilook at it differently.
In fact, I remember a timewhere Dad said to me he's like
you know, there are times whereI am just worried you're not
going to enjoy life as muchbecause I'm very wired for
productivity and impact andpurpose.

(01:06:40):
Like for me, when laying on mydeathbed and I look back at this
, I have one in they say one in400 trillion chance of being
here.
Certainly I'm gonna enjoy itand I've done things to that.
But me it's like I feel likeI've gotta leave this place
better off than I found it.
And I'm thinking about impactand like I had a one in 400
trillion chance of being here,I'm laying 85,.
Did I do enough to leave thisplace better off than I found it

(01:07:02):
?
Like to me it's about that, andso some you know again and I
think this goes to kids too it'slike, oh, it's the memories and
did they have fun, and did theyhave this and did they right,
did they enjoy it?
And yeah, you know.
And so for me it's like, yes,there is part of that and you
have to.
I think you know you have tohave those relationships and you

(01:07:28):
have to have things, that whereyou can have opportunities to
bond.
But also is it also about andhow much about preparing them
and putting them in a positionto maximize their impact and
live out their purpose and thegifts that they've been given.
I'd be interested in your guys'take on that dynamic, because I
think when we talk aboutcertain things are right for
some families versus others,it's about how they're oriented,

(01:07:49):
right, which there's no rightor wrong answer here.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
It's back to the aim comment.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Correct.
Yeah, absolutely, and it's likeI'd be interested to see where
you guys fall on that spectrum.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
I think it's both sides right.
I think that was the originalpremise of this conversation,
was you have to?
It may feel you know we talkedabout the context of the word
suffering and that part of life,and you know, tying the word
enjoyment to suffering isdifficult to do.
But you know, if anybody hasexperienced something difficult,

(01:08:21):
whether it's it doesn't matter,right?
I know we always talk aboutrunning, deal with it, because
it just is what it is.
But you accomplish this goal.
It wasn't that, that wasn't agreat thing, right, but you
embraced the journey and I thinkembracing the consistency of
that journey leads to you makingyour impact.

(01:08:42):
Embracing it to whatever leveland I think it's the same thing
holds true is exactly what yousaid on the other side of it
like you're never going to getto ultimate relaxation,
happiness, whatever, whatever.
It's just this downward spiral,but potentially, you know, and
embracing the journey towhatever you've aimed at in

(01:09:04):
terms of entertainment is goingto fulfill those other human
needs and that's back to thatbalance.
So I think they're bothcyclical, again, depending on
where your aim is, for yourfamily or yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
I would also agree.
I think you need both.
I think you need both.
What triggered when you weretalking is, I believe, certain
people are oriented in more oneway than the other, which is, I
think, what makes the world goround right.
So we've got super serious,hardcore people and we got super
laid back.
I remember when I first met mywife, her family, when they said

(01:09:38):
we were going to eat at twoo'clock, it meant we're going to
eat sometime that day.
I mean it was like it could befour o'clock, it depends who
would show up At the dailyfamily.
When we said it was at noon, wewere praying at 1157.
And if you weren't there atnoon, we're starting without you
.
So I think it's important thatwe have a plethora of different

(01:10:01):
types of people growing up abunch of different ways, because
I believe it balances out.
You know the world because wecan get so far down one side of
that.
I do think you needproductivity and you need to add
.
You know value to the peoplearound you and you can't just
live in paradise.
But I think there are differentlevels of that and I think we

(01:10:21):
all have a little.
I think even in our threefamilies we all live just a
little bit different, and ourkids are going to be a flavor of
that, based on the way thatwe've chosen to raise them.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
I think that's fair.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Everybody feel good.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yeah, I would.
Just to cap this off, I wouldrecommend a book that I've read.
That's really really good, Ithink, in addition to the
gamification and the communityjust educating yourself on some
of this stuff and the importanceand obviously we're talking at
things at a very conceptuallevel, but there's a lot of
scientific evidence out therethat explains this much more
convincingly and convictingly.
One of the books that's beenreally important in my journey

(01:11:00):
is Ryan Holiday's, the.
The obstacle is the way, whichis essentially that it's like
the thing that you don't want todo.
The obstacle, like you have tobe oriented to tackle that and
how psychologically, um, thatcan lead to a lot of positive
things.
So I would just put that bookrecommendation out there, and if
it's not that book, maybethere's another one Um, I don't
know if you guys have frog,Isn't that?

(01:11:21):
isn't that another book?

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
That's another one that kind of talks about Tom
Cabot talks about doing, youknow yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Eat the Frog is knocking that thing out first
thing.
That's the difficult thingabout building that momentum.
So hopefully you guys got somereally good stuff today and
definitely check out those booksand we'll see you next time.
Thanks,