Episode 9: Is There a Right Way to Believe? Challenging Religious Norms

This episode invites listeners into a heartfelt dialogue about the complexities of faith and spirituality within the context of family relationships. Our journeys through and beyond Catholicism prompt discussions about belief, perception of truth, and respect for differing spiritual paths.

• Exploring the tension between religious upbringing and personal faith 
• The significance of family dynamics in discussions about belief 
• The importance of seeking understanding in faith conversations 
• Analyzing the implications of interpreting scripture literally vs. metaphorically 
• Navigating the challenges of differing denominations and beliefs 
• The role of spirituality in contemporary life and its benefits 
• The impact of cultural changes on religious practices and beliefs 
• Encouraging a unified approach to belief systems among family members 
• Strategies for interceding for others while respecting their beliefs 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Daily Edge where we bring you the
latest insights, opinions andthought-provoking conversations
to give you that competitiveedge in life, business and
beyond.
Let's go Welcome to episode 9of the Daily Edge here with my
brothers, tj and Todd, and todaywe're going to do one of the

(00:29):
unthinkables.
They tell you and family to nottalk about politics or religion
and we're going to dive intoreligion.
All three were raised Catholicsand we all have kind of
ventured off and found our ownfaith and journey in
Christianity in different ways.
So this one could getinteresting, excited to have

(00:53):
these debates.
They actually happen quite abit.
I'm going to lead off with thequote that probably still haunts
me to this day, when my dadrealized that we are part of a
Wesleyan church now and hequotes upon my rock or upon this
rock, I built my church.
That Peter meant the Catholicchurch and it's the only church.

(01:13):
So that still bothers me tothis day, that my father
believes that if you're notCatholic you can't go to heaven,
which I don't know why.
You don't want your dad tothink that.
But yeah, so we'll just throwthat firebomb out there and
let's jump right in.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Let's let the Catholic pick it up.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
I think what's interesting about religion?
That has kind of fascinated me,because we just got off of an
episode talking about how weneed to seek to understand and
kind of be more well-rounded andnot really take a strong
position.
The interesting thing aboutreligion is there's a lot at
stake, potentially so.

(01:55):
If you look at justChristianity in general, I think
the premise is heaven or hellfor eternity.
Right is the premise.
And what I think is interestingabout that is I was actually I
won't call them out, but it wasa family member that we were
interacting with, an immediatefamily member in our family that

(02:18):
we were interacting with theother day and they said you know
, I just with religion, I justwish everyone could kind of do
their own thing and everybodyneeds to do their own thing and
like, not infringe upon.
And this is a kind of adisposition that I had for a
very long time.
It's like, hey, you know, youdo you, I'll do me, and like
that's it.

(02:39):
What's interesting aboutreligion that challenges that
notion a little bit is what's atstake.
If, for example, I felt like Iknew the truth, let's just
hypothetically say that, and Iknow a lot of people say, well,
how do you know the truth, youknow this is all you know.
There's a lot of translationover the last 2000 years.
Let's just say I found somesort of piece or discovered
something that I knew, some sortof answer and way for both of

(03:01):
you to get to heaven foreternity, versus being in hell
for eternity, right, like, let'sgo down that hypothesis.
That is a little bit of adifferent disposition.
Now I could sit there and sayyou know what you guys just do.
You, I've got this, you know, Ireally think I've got this
answer and I could either, likeI got to have my brothers in

(03:22):
heaven for eternity, or myfamily members or my friends or
whoever, so I have got to sharethis.
Like I have somehow got to havemy brothers in heaven for
eternity, or my family membersor my friends or whoever, so I
have got to share this, I havesomehow got to convince them of
this so they can be on this sideas well.
Versus you do you?
If you end up there, great, ifyou don't, great.
Or if it is even heaven andhell at the end of the day, cool
.
So that's what's interesting tome about religion is it's a

(03:46):
little bit of a differentperspective, cause I think a lot
of people are like, don't youeven start to put your religion,
push your religion on me, likelike I'm going to do my thing,
you do yours.
But if someone truly feels likethey have the truth or the
answer, there's a little bit ofa different approach here.
If some same with me, like Imight want them to kind of push

(04:08):
on me to, you know, if they dohave something that I haven't
thought through or considered,so I can have that eternal gain.
So I'll just leave it at that.
But I think that's what'sinteresting about religion
versus a lot of these otherpositions where there's nothing
really meaningfully at stake.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
I think you know this has been interesting, as we've
talked a lot about over thecourse of our episodes the
exposure to new thoughts, newideas through new media.
And I think, when it comes toreligion, you know, for us,
being raised Catholic and on ourdad's side at least a long line
of Catholics, like that wasjust it.

(04:49):
You know, I went to a Catholicschool for eight years.
You did for a couple, youdidn't, and so you know there
was this mindlessness to it.
You just went to church, yousaid the things, you acted a
particular way.
There were a couple majorpoints that you focused on,
whether that be the TenCommandments, the Golden Rule or
whatever.
We had Bible every single dayor religion every single day, so

(05:13):
we would focus on differentpassages and it's just something
that you took at face value.
So as media has grown and aspeople have started to look at
different specific approaches ordifferent, I guess, have
different micro philosophies asit relates to the Bible or
religion and now our parentstook the Bible not all of them,

(05:37):
but you see a lot more peoplefrom back then take it literally
like to the letter, and there'sinstances that you do and you
don't on the same specific setsof scripture.
Where I struggled personally wasI didn't feel like it spoke to
my curiosity.
I want to understand the why.

(05:58):
I want to understand.
You know I don't necessarilyneed to know for sure, but if
this particular story exists inthe Bible, I need to know why it
exists.
And if we're going to take itmetaphorically, I want to
understand why we're taking itmetaphorically and how that
serves the greater good ofhumanity or how that serves.
So I've gone on a journey whereyou know I backed completely out

(06:22):
when I left high school, reallyfrom daily or twice a week mass
and in the last probably coupleof years I've been exposed to
Christianity more and morethrough you're both involved in
your churches.
The track and cross-countryclub that we deal with, that

(06:44):
we're involved in, is aChristian-based and so I've
started to go back to church andexplore this a little bit more.
But, like that's where I alwaysstruggle with it.
You know you were talking aboutevangelism and you know I see a
lot of similar approaches toreligion that you do to politics
.
Like people are, they don'tlook at the nuance and they're

(07:04):
very aggressive and it's one wayand they're evangelical in a
certain manner.
And if you don't do this.
You are this, and there's a lotof negativity around religion,
because you know, especially thepolitics religion combination
where you'll see people angry atChristians because they believe
, because a lot of times they'reso judgmental.
Yet the ethos of Christianityis the exact opposite, and so I

(07:29):
struggle with that and I've donea lot of exploring recently to
try to make some of theseconnections on my own, because,
you know, I believe it to betrue and I believe there to be a
God and I believe the tenets ofChristianity, but at the same
time, I haven't found somethingyet that speaks to me the way

(07:49):
that I want it to speak.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
I'd be interested in your guys' take, I think, where
a lot of debate is.
So there's obviouslyChristianity and there's other
religions, and again to eachtheir own, and we're going to
speak on this mostly from aChristianity standpoint, but
from different denominations andsuch.
So I would be interested tokind of dive into why do you
think there is so muchdisconnect and why is there so

(08:14):
much arguing and debate arounddenominations in general.
Like I've tried to takeChristianity as the Bible is the
truth and there is differentinterpretations of the Bible and
everyone thinks they have theversion.
But when I try to in itssimplest form, because I go back

(08:34):
to, I think religion is where alot of the legalism has come in
, because there's a lot of rulesand when you grow up in an
environment like that it can bedaunting and I think there is a
part of that that will pushpeople away.
And I'll also say all of this noone here has a seminary
background.
So we're all talking this asdads and so as though we are

(08:58):
deep in our faith.
We are talking this asnon-professionals, so I just
want to clarify that.
So there's this inner debate,denominationally, about who's
right, who's wrong, and it'slike man, it just feels like
we're all on the same team.
We all believe in Jesus.
Why do you believe that evenexists Well?

Speaker 3 (09:19):
it's a good question.
I think it probably exists forthe same reason that the
denomination split off in thefirst place, right, which is I
think it's well documented.
Over the years there's beencorruption in the church and I
would say, you know, for thefirst thousand years that was

(09:41):
the Catholic Church and thenkind of the Greek Orthodox split
off a little bit there.
But even as we think, in WesternAmerica, like that was, there
was a, there was corruption andthere was selling indulgences
and like there were some thingsthat went off the rails and
there were some people that sawthat, that imperfection that was

(10:05):
coming from human involvement,and they tried to write that
within the confines of the wallsof the church and others said,
starting with Martin Luther,like I'm out, right, here are
the reasons I'm out.
And so I think the fact thatthose were substantial enough,
because religion I mean it's ait's I think it has been

(10:30):
historically more of acenterpiece of life than it is
today in today's society, Ithink historically like and you
go back to even Jewish times,like prior to Christ, like it
was everything, and we can getinto some of that like, and we

(11:07):
can get into some of that likeand why it was such a bizarre
thing that so people didn'talign with that, I think still
holds true today and manifestsin different societal situations
.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
When you think about one of the other, the big is
spiritual versus religious, andwe hear that a lot.
So when we're talking in theform of some people like I don't
feel comfortable in a church, Idon't want to be part of a
religion, what would you say tothem?

(11:39):
Or maybe TJ, even from yourexample of, like you know me and
my wife when we got married wewent to a bunch of different
churches to find the right fitfor us and one of the
interesting parts is that a lotof times the church you're born
into maybe doesn't have theworship style that you love.
So there's a worship componentand then there's a sermon

(12:00):
component and with the CatholicChurch, nothing against the
Catholic church.
I was more going through themotions at that time and it was
more routine for me and theywould read the gospel and then
the sermon was maybe 15 minutes.
It was short and sweet, and Iwent to a church now where I
have one of the highestintellectual pastors around and

(12:24):
he just takes things so deep andI just find there's so much
more meaning in my life andthey're so relatable and it's
just like the passion and theworship there just suits me
better.
I'm not saying it's better thananything else, because you got
to find your style too, and sopart of this, I think, is the
style of how you worship or howyou like to receive content, and

(12:50):
where we're at now at CollegeWesleyan has allowed me to
fulfill that need.
Do you think there's anythingthere?
Would you guys talk aboutdifferent styles and trying to
find the right fit?

Speaker 2 (13:00):
I mean, that's my issue, right, and I see, I think
the spiritual side of thingspeople who are more spiritual
and I know atheists is acomplete counter to that, but I
think it is along the same lines.
Is they just like?
I think atheism a lot of timesis and I know this is a little
off, but it's like anintellectual superiority thing.

(13:22):
How can you believe about thismagic person in the sky?
There's, but but I also thinkthat's a cop-out, like that's an
easy way to just you know, Idon't want to learn about this.
I don't want to try tounderstand if there's a
physiological connection or howconscience plays into this or
all of these things.
I just want to just throw it.
And I think spirituality is.
I haven't found a substantive orset of facts that leads me to

(13:50):
believe that or that's convincedme that things happen one way
versus another.
But I also haven't found factson the other side that can
connect me specifically to aspecific God and a specific
savior, if you will.
So I think that's where youstart to go when you talk about

(14:18):
spirituality versus.
For me, I wanted to understandout of curiosity, kind of like
we've talked about in priorepisodes, like I want to be able
to make this connection.
I, I, I know there's going tobe some element of having to
have faith.
You're not being able to seesomething and believe that it's

(14:40):
there but at the same time, youknow, I want to continue to
research and uncover and, likeyou know, you talked about
Wesley Huff in a prior episode.
I love that man, you know, likesomebody who is spending their
life looking at ancient textsand finding these things and how

(15:00):
they inform other elements ofthe faith itself and how it
makes it more real, if you will.
And then some of the work that,like a Jordan Peterson's doing,
where he's trying to take theBible and tie it into our
physiology.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Those things are really helping me come full
circle because, again, I haven'tgone to a sermon, I haven't
gone to a church where there's aparticular element that is
really speaking to me, yet Ithink what I've probably heard

(15:36):
and what I align with is, in theCatholic circles, as you might
call it, is, I think most wouldsay that hour's for God, not for
you, like this is your hour tocome and kind of worship, and
not necessarily for yourenjoyment or pleasure, or like
hey, seek the setting that ismost enjoyable for you for that

(15:59):
hour.
So I would say that and I guessfor me what I have appreciated
about the Catholic Church inpart is, while the challenges
over time have been welldocumented, is the consistency
of it.
It's held pretty steadfast andgained a reputation societally

(16:19):
for being slow to change, andgained a reputation societally
for being slow to change, forbeing kind of caught up in old
times, and that's part of what Iappreciate about it is there's
just a steadfastness and there'sa consistency and it borders on

(16:41):
literal interpretation ofScripture.
Right, that's kind of where itwas founded and it's kind of
stuck to.
And for me there's an elementof that that is enticing in the
face of a society that isseeking a set of rules that are
more convenient and moreenjoyable for the lifestyles

(17:02):
that we are trying to live.
So that's where I kind of findmyself, maybe not as much
associating with a Christiandenomination, and again, some of
this you can go back to.
I think a lot of it is in theweeds of the literalness of the
words in the scripture right.
But, like when I look at eventhe symbols and this is maybe

(17:26):
relevant because it goes back tothe episode we just talked
about If you look at the symbolsof the Catholic and the
Christian church actually I haveone on the Catholic church is
Jesus is on the crucifix or onthe cross right, which is
crucifix.
So there's this element ofsuffering that I think is
embraced by the Catholic church.
I think their, their mindset isa little more of um of that.

(17:48):
Like the, there is going to bean element of suffering and
almost to the extent that thankyou, trent, you've commented on
this at times you have to earnit a little bit, Like you've got
to earn your place in heaven,where I think on the Christian
side it is more uh, as long asyou believe you're going to
heaven, there's not really asmuch of a implication or a posed

(18:12):
, not imposing as much onlifestyle choices or certain
things.
I mean some denominations thereare right, I think, in the
Wesleyan church in terms of youknow, alcohol consumption or
dancing, there are differentthings, but I do feel like on
the Christian cross, rightwithout Jesus, it's more about

(18:34):
the resurrection and theredemptiveness and more on the
focus on as long as you believe,kind of you're going there.
So those are just a couple ofthings coming off the last
episode, embracing thatsuffering a little bit.
That I just maybe align morewith as well as the literal
interpretation of the Scripturesuits me better.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
But weigh in on that.
Yeah, no, I think those aregood points.
I'm sitting here I just keptthinking about how Jesus lived
his life and for me, regardlessof religion and I would put
Catholics as Christians we allbelieve in Christ.

(19:18):
So we all have differentbeliefs within that, but we're
all our faith believers thatChrist was, the Christ is our
Savior, and so I think for meone of the interesting things is
is like Jesus lived a prettymiraculous life and I think
about, as you read through theBible, the different things he

(19:39):
did, the communities he spenttime in, the way he acted, the
way he lifted people up, and Ibelieve that true freedom and
this is where physiology andmental and spiritual and we'll
talk about this in anotherepisode is like you know,
business is a spiritual game.
It's like there's certain partsin life that you just can't get
through without some, I think,without a spiritual divine

(20:02):
intervention, at least withoutnot losing your mind.
But there's this opportunityfor us to live a life like
Christ and whatever that you runinto, or however you get to
that point, because I thinkagain, what's the point of a
church?
What's the purpose of a church?
I think for me it goes back to.

(20:24):
We've talked about gamificationand community, right, so having
a community that can helpencourage and make you
consistent, and so that's whereI think the church plays the
role.
But for me it's how can I livea life like Christ?
And if I look at how heexemplified and how he lived his
life, it was helping otherpeople.
You know it was obviouslypraying to the Father, and then

(20:46):
I think about all the differentways that he did that, and so
that's where I'm trying to alignis like, how do I come
alongside other people and help,encourage and promote?
And so that's kind of theapproach that I've taken over
the last several years and oneof the ways that we've started
to do that.

(21:07):
There's a team that I'm involvedin and a guy named Jeff Clark
has this method called preyingon offense, and we call it proof
.
But preying on offense is howcan you intercede for other
people in your circles?
And the premise around it isit's as easy as one, three, two.

(21:28):
You claim one space which couldbe your place of work If you're
a homemaker, it could be athome but you claim a space, you
pick three people, three peoplethat God's kind of laid on your
heart in that space, and thenthere's two sides of prayer.
So there's God what do you wantme to know?
And God, what do you want me todo?

(21:48):
And so I'm praying, and what'sbeen really interesting about
this process is my prayer lifeused to go into, you know,
thanking God for a bunch ofstuff, or asking him for a bunch
of stuff, and a lot of timeswhen I wouldn't get prayers
answers answered, I would leavefrustrated and be like, oh, he
never answers, never answersanything.
You know, he never healed momand I wanted to see mom still be
around.

(22:08):
And you created thisfrustration.
And throughout this processit's been really fun for me
because I'm asking differentquestions.
God, what are you doing inTodd's life that I can walk
alongside him or show me a waythat I can?
You know how should I help TJin these manners?
And I'm asking questions anddoing things that are allowing

(22:30):
me to go to God for the peoplearound me, and it fundamentally
changes my relationships.
It changes the way I think itchanges the way I approach
things, and so I'm going intoall of this and, yeah, we have
these.
We have churches andcommunities that are good, but,
like as a lay person, that isn'teducated in, you know, seminary

(22:54):
and I don't have all.
I'm trying to figure out a wayto.
I have to believe in somethinggreater than myself because I
just I just do, but I have tofind a way to intercede for the
people around me and I have todo it in a way that's not going
to make them uncomfortable.
If I have to believe insomething greater than myself,
because I just do, but I have tofind a way to intercede for the
people around me and I have todo it in a way that's not going
to make them uncomfortable.
If I came to you and said, hey,man, I'm going to pray for you
and we're going to do this thing, and you talk about making it
uncomfortable and awkward, right, it's like how can I intercede?

(23:16):
And so I'm constantly pulledback into living my life the way
Christ did, and that's reallybeen my focus and I know there's
we can talk about the detailsand we believe it's the
Eucharist or not, but it's aboutinclusivity.
It's about being part of thesegroups and bringing people
together and praying for peopleand wanting the best for people,

(23:36):
and that's kind of where I'vecentered myself on Christianity
is.
I want to live a life likeChrist, because it was so
special.
We're still talking about it2,000 years later.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah, I would say.
I think one of the things thatthe Catholic Church would say
and other apologists of theCatholic Church would say I
think Jesus' life has beenpartially misinterpreted.
So yes, and I think what youtalked about, what Jesus is
really good at, was meetingpeople where they were at right.
Socially misinterpreted.
So yes, and I think what youtalked about, what Jesus is
really good at, was meetingpeople where they were at right

(24:08):
the woman at the well or the taxcollector or whoever right.
He met these people where theywere at and he showed grace.
Right Now, in most of theseinteractions, if you look in
there, there's some sort ofstatement or similar statement
towards now go and sin, no moreright.
And I think that's thebeginning.

(24:28):
That is the beginning of thepart that I think gets left out
or misinterpreted.
Jesus was a very polarizingfigure.
I think most people and I wouldsay and again this isn't like
I'm not saying bad, but I thinkon the stereotype, on the more
Christian side is that Jesus waskind of loving and loved
everyone and it was just like hewas very passive and

(24:51):
accommodating and just.
It was all about love.
I think he was also a verypolarizing figure.
That I think doesn't get asmuch attention outside of the
Catholic circle and the Catholiccircle that is embraced a
little more to where he haschallenged people now go and sin
no more.
I mean, clearly he waspolarizing enough that they
crucified him right, like herubbed a lot of people the wrong

(25:13):
way.
He was very, um, uh, very directin how he stated things.
There was a time where he, youknow in the Bible where it talks
about like I came, you know,with a sword to divide mother
and child and divide families.
So he's used in a number of.
Again, some of this isdepending on the willingness to

(25:34):
accept the literalness of thewords in the Bible, right, but I
think he was a very polarizingfigure that while he met people
where they were at and showedgrace, also demanded uh, and was
very clear, didn't mince a lotof words about the way people
should live if they were goingto spend eternity with him in

(25:55):
heaven.
Um, so I don't know what yourthought is on that or, tj, maybe
you want to jump in on this,but I think that's a
misconception.
I think that polarizing,agitating part gets left out a
lot, because anytime people talkabout Jesus like well, jesus
was loving and he didn't right.
Well, he actually pissed peopleoff to the point where they

(26:17):
nailed his ass to a cross.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Well see, I think where you run into problems and
I found a little bit of comfortand solace in kind of some of
this approach is the more youcling to the literalness of, and
this is what's so intriguing.
Yes, christianity andCatholicism is a large religion,
but with the seeds of doubtthat are being sown through

(26:41):
consumption of media nowadays,the literalness like
interpreting the Bible literallyprovides, gives the opportunity
to sow more doubt.
What I mean by that is like,again, we talked a couple of
episodes ago about, back in theday, the newspaper was gospel.

(27:02):
Like what you got in and likethat was it, and I think you
know the bible was, for allintents and purposes, the first
really widely distributed, youknow, collection of stories um
across the old world, and andhas continued since then, and I
think it's lasted for a reason,I think what.

(27:23):
What is happening, though, is,as people are getting exposed to
different you can call themconspiracy theories or whatever
they're beginning to questionmore, and when you look at the
Bible through a literal lens, Iremember Jordan Peterson sitting
down with Richard Dawkins,right Famous atheist and Dawkins
Dawkins' story.
I appreciate Peterson.
I know that he's verypolarizing as well.

(27:45):
I appreciate him at leastthinking through different
approaches, where Dawkins justgoes back to you can't really
believe that there was a realCain and Abel, or you can't
really believe that he turnedwater into wine, or you can't
really believe that X, y, zhappened.
But in the way that Petersonwas rebutting that, refuting
that.
And the way that Peterson wasrebutting that, refuting that

(28:06):
was he was talking about some ofthese stories from a
metaphorical perspective andthat you know he made a comment
I was listening to his bookagain on the way up here that
the best leaders aren't thepeople with the.
You know, you aren't a goodleader because you have money.
You're not a good leaderbecause you have a particular
status.
You're a good leader becauseyou have money.
You're not a good leaderbecause you have a particular
status.
You're a good leader becauseyou have vision and you're a

(28:28):
great storyteller.
That's what makes someone agood leader.
And the people that havewritten the Bible, they were
great storytellers.
Looking at the Bible throughthat particular lens and not
necessarily an as literal lens,I think it provides you a better
opportunity to spread that wordright, because again, somebody
a hundred years ago, most ofwhat they're getting from a

(28:48):
written word perspective is like, I'm just okay, it's cool, like
, and they see the Bible like,that's, that's the truth,
there's nothing telling meotherwise.
Now, there's so much out therethat's telling you otherwise.
Like, how you know it's, it'sthat much easier to denounce
things and and and come and saythere's no way, like, again it
goes back to I mentioned earlierand I'll stop creationism.

(29:09):
Right, and that's highlyaligned with people who believe
the Bible to the most literalsense, that the world is 6,000
years old.
Again, you're telling themajority of the 8 billion people
in the world that every form ofscience that they've ever been
exposed to is bullshit.
Geology is bullshit, you know,like all of these other things,

(29:29):
by saying that everything in theBible.
What's intriguing to me is thatif God's purpose of
establishing this religion wasmoving it forward, you would
think that we would find a wayto adapt it so that it was more
digestible by people who haveaccess to the information we

(29:51):
have access to today.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
I would say that's a slippery slope in the sense that
if we do believe there is truthin the Bible, that we
compromise the truth simply tospread.
We've actually had this.
This has come up in quite a fewconversations with different
spiritual groups lately, andPope Francis is a very

(30:15):
polarizing figure in theCatholic Church right now
because I think he is taking alittle more of a I would say
that sort of an an approach,right, like welcome, more,
welcoming, more, like hey, youknow, um in a, in an effort to
uh, bring more people in.
Now, when I say that approach,I don't think I mean I mean just

(30:39):
within the Catholic community,right, where there's maybe this
much give, like he's like here,like here, uh, with kind of some
of the things that have beensaid, he has really pushed the
envelopes and there's been a lotof friction there and I think
the, the pushback is the truthis the truth, and if there's 10
of us at the end of the day thatare aligned to the truth, it's

(31:02):
better that that than 10 billionwhere the truth has been
compromised and have this kindof loose understanding of what
it is.
So I think to your point, oneof the things I would say about
the Bible that we have to bemindful of as we're interpreting
is terminology.
I think that's the biggestthing that it was obviously

(31:23):
written down in one language andthen it's been translated.
Now one of the things they'llsay about the Bible is, from a
historical accuracy perspective,it is one of it's unprecedented
.
The number of copies of theBible in the different languages
that so closely align with eachother in terms of the factual
documentation, like welloutperforms most of what we

(31:46):
consider to be common history inhistory class, like you look
like Alexander the Great or likeall these other historical
events.
Like the amount of documentationof those type of events
relative to what there is forthe Bible in that whole period
of time is even corroborationfrom non-Christian sources.
It's like wild.
And so it's like if we're goingto teach this other stuff as

(32:06):
actual history, it pales incomparison.
So I think it does come down toto what extent do you believe
Scripture is divinely inspiredand the specific, aside from the
translations and being mindfulof what words mean in Greek and
how it was translated because Ithink some of that, there is
human involvement here in thetranslations and being mindful
of what words mean in Greek andhow it was translated, because I
think some of that you know,there is human involvement here

(32:29):
in the translations you have tobe mindful of.
But it's that balance of okay,there's been some translation
here, but how to not lose thetruth in that process.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
I think that's interesting, though, because the
truth is what is beinginterpreted, and it's being
interpreted differently, I think, depending on who's
interpreting it, so wheresomeone might take something
very literal from the Bible andsome might say, no, this is a
story that's going through thesedifferent.
It's giving us life lessons,because this is the way to

(33:00):
freedom.
One of the things, though, thatI would be curious about I
think certain religions might bebetter at certain things.
What I mean by that is let'sput Christianity on a scale of 1
to 10.
And let's say, a person out of10 is a pastor for whatever

(33:22):
church, and number one is likeI've never even heard of the
Bible right, and to get people,let's.
Maybe the goal is to get peopleto attend it is, but what if you
could get a million people froma one to a three or three to a
five or five to a seven?
And one of the things that'sbeen interesting in my journey

(33:45):
is what I'm realizing working inthe business world and things
that I'm running.
At one point in time, I wasthree, Even though I was raised
Catholic.
I went through the repetitions,I was baptism, I went to
college, made a lot of differentdecisions that wouldn't have
fallen into any religion duringthat point in time.
That would be helpful.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
I think we didn't really cover kind of our
backgrounds.
I know TJ kind of mentioned it,but you and I both for 9, 15
years and you maybe thereaboutslike we were completely away
from the faith.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, yeah, left church, went to school, went to
Seattle, wasn't going to churchat all.
I think for me it triggeredwhen I started having kids again
and I'm like I got thisprecious miracle and for once in
my life I didn't feelinvincible, right.
And so that's when we startedgoing back to church and kind of
figuring out our faith.
But so I wonder this, I thinkso there was a point in time at

(34:38):
IMG when I was like I needed,like I just felt like God was
calling me to do more, and I'llnever forget that night.
I needed, like I just felt likeGod was calling me to do more,
and I'll never forget that night.
I always felt, I always feellike it's easier to send emails
at night, because at nightyou're by yourself and you just
feel a little more bold.
I was sitting there Sunday nightand I'm like we're going to do
this meeting and it's going tobe called Redefining Greatness,

(34:59):
and we have worldly greatnessand we have kingdom greatness
and life is, you know, worldlysuccess and kingdom success.
And so I sent an email to theentire company and I said, hey,
we're going to meet on Mondaymornings at the time and we're
going to meet at 8am.
It's completely voluntary, butwe're going to talk about
worldly greatness and kingdomgreatness and we're going to
talk about spiritual things, butlife things.

(35:21):
And this was I don't know howmany years ago maybe five to
seven years ago and the wholecompany showed up and I remember
just sweating.
It's like okay, everyone's here, and it was like I just kind of
went into it of like God wascalling me to do more and that
stage of my life I was stillprobably only a five or a four,
but I was talking to people thatwere maybe ones, twos and

(35:41):
threes and not all of them were,and then that's evolved over
time.
Now it's a biweekly thing thatwe do at the company, still like
seven years later, and it'sjust I don't believe in my
current role that I'm ever goingto probably get to a 10, nor
that I'm going to be the onethat's trying to get someone to
a 10, but I'm trying to havethese conversations and one of

(36:03):
the things I struggle with fromand I hate to go back and not
like I'm picking on Catholicism,but it's not as welcoming.
It's like I go in there I can'tget the Eucharist.
Now I know why, and we can havethat debate here in a minute.
But like the part aboutwelcoming people in to get the
ones and twos and threes, to getcurious enough, and maybe
Catholicism is better about thepeople that are super intense

(36:26):
and want to be super literal,and like there's a point that
they may say well, I, I want to,you know, dive deeper and then
they end up switching toCatholicism because that's
better for that.
I don't know.
But trying to get people foreach of us.
We have a circle of influenceand you have people around you
from one step to the next andthen trying to get people for

(36:46):
each of us.
We have a circle of influenceand you have people around you
from one step to the next andthen trying to get yourself from
one step to the next.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah, I think that's 100% spot on.
I think that's what Jesus didvery well at.
He met people where they wereat, and I think that's the
design of it.
To what extent, I mean, god'sonly the one who's going to make
an actual conversion or movepeople along that line.
To your point, faith and worksLike we're coworkers out there.
If he is putting us in people'slives to um, you know, provide

(37:15):
that, uh, be exemplary alongthose lines or share information
about that.
I think that's what we do, umto the best of our ability, and
he will do the rest.
But to your point, I thinkmeeting people where they are at
is very important and I think,in terms of Catholicism's rules

(37:38):
and the exclusivity of it,certainly there are a lot of
what you might call barriers toentry, and I think there's a
double-edged sword to that.
There's a beauty in that whichis like this is not easy.
You don't just show up and takethe body and blood and go to
heaven forever.
It's just like there's aprocess, there's a learning,

(37:59):
there's a suffering, there's anenduring, there's a journey here
to get to the place whereyou're going to spend eternity
with Jesus, versus like, hey,I'm just going to show up and
believe and I'm there.
So I think to your point,though the problem, the downside
of that is it comes across asexclusive, like you're not good
enough to be here, you haven'tgotten far enough in your

(38:21):
journey or whatever.
So I think and that's what PopeFrancis has been interestingly
polarizing about, and I thinkyou'll find even different
priests and bishops take alittle bit of a different line
on that.
I think it's always in theCatholic church like it coming
from within, even the sermons onEaster, and are very

(38:42):
encouraging towards those peoplelike come and show up to church
.
Yeah, maybe not take theEucharist right, because there's
a lot of meaning behind that Inthe Catholic Church it's not
just a symbol, it's actually thechurch would teach that's
actually the body and blood ofJesus, like literally, which is
kind of a hard thing for some toprocess.

(39:05):
But that extent of that meaningis why it's kind of like hey,
you can't just show up and takethis, there's more, more to it.
So I totally get theexclusivity perception, um, and
as well as the other side of whyit is there are more barriers
to entry yeah, I mean, see that,for me, you mentioned something

(39:27):
earlier about divineinspiration and I really don't
care one way or the other.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
meaning that another thing that I may have mentioned
to both of you maybe not is thatone of the topics of
conversation in the conversationI referenced earlier was
whether it's divinely inspiredfrom the top down or bottom up
doesn't really matter.
Meaning that whether God spoketo the gospel writers and or the
writers of the Old Testamentand divinely inspired them to go

(39:52):
write these manuscripts, versusthat, over time, there were
these stories that resonatedwith how we are wired as humans.
I heard a verse in the Biblethis morning, something about
the meek voice right, and Idon't know the Bible as much as
I used to anymore, but anywaysor the quiet little voice

(40:15):
essentially saying God ispresent in our conscience.
Right, and I think, as humanity, we are all wired with
particular.
We know what's right.
You have to have that, you haveto have a way to perceive the
world, you have to have storiesto perceive the world through,

(40:37):
and so you know.
Again, going back to this, Idon't.
For me it doesn't matter whetheror not it was divinely inspired
or that these stories resonatedwith those internal beliefs or
those internal moral compasses,enough to be the ones that were
curated over time and ultimatelylasted, because those are the
most aligned with how we'rewired as human beings.

(40:59):
If we were here without thatkind of general aim as to
knowing what's good and what'snot good, we couldn't perceive
the world.
It would just be, you know,you'd look at a wall and there'd
be no way to perceive it.
You'd see all these things andit would be coming at you in a
particular way.
So you know, for me I look atthe Bible Again.
I've been looking at it, Ithink, a little bit more

(41:20):
metaphorically.
I think there's a lot of goodlessons there.
I think there are a lot ofthings that we've talked about
in our first eight or nineepisodes that are underpinned by
some of those stories in theBible, and for me that allows me
to embrace it as opposed totaking it literally, because I
think there are some things whenyou take it literally that
would make it difficult for meto engage in any way.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
I mean to your point.
I think the cultural benefitsof the Bible could come from
either one of those, whether thestories just resonated or it
was divinely inspired scripture.
I think the cultural benefit ofthe Bible is going to be intact
either way, because people havelatched onto this From a

(42:03):
religious or spiritualperspective.
I would challenge the fact thatif Jesus didn't actually rise
from the dead, it's a wholedifferent animal.
It's more of a code of what asuccessful, happy, joyful,
fulfilled even.
You know, I think, based on theexistence of some other

(42:25):
religions, there could be somebelieve in God, but maybe not
Jesus, and so I thinkChristianity would, in the Bible
, change as drastically.
If there's not an underlyingtruth to those stories, outside
of the cultural impact it couldstill have the same positive
cultural impact, but if hedidn't actually rise from the
dead, I would say it's a wholedifferent animal.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Are you saying that every story in the Bible is 100%
literal?
Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 3 (42:55):
I would say there are some.
No, I think there are somesituations, particularly Genesis
, that is more allegory innature.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
Go to the New Testament.
Do you think?
Every single thing, every storyin the New Testament is 100%?

Speaker 3 (43:19):
I would say literal.
That's a big question.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Well, but it's the foundation of how you pick which
story you're going to.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
If you look at the New Testament, I would say I
would tend to say yes, again aword here or there, but I would
say absolutely.
I would lean towards that morebeing absolutely literal.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
You would basically have to, because you can't say
well, the resurrection, youcan't pick and choose.

Speaker 3 (44:01):
Correct.
Well, and that's the challenge.
Right, that's where it getsinteresting?

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Yes, again, none.
That's the challenge, right?
That's where it getsinteresting, of like.
And so again, none of us arescholars and we're not here to
browbeat each other, but it's tounderstand that.
That's the way you interpret it, correct.
John 6 is the good example.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
And I'm completely the opposite, right Like for me,
if the purpose, if the Bible isour railroad tracks, if this is
the railroad tracks forhumanity to end up where it's
supposed to the ultimate, theseare the railroad tracks.
I don't really care how they gotthere.
If the story of Jesus'resurrection was found to be the

(44:38):
most compelling story and thething that allowed this to
perpetuate in a manner that allof these rules that are the
Bible resonated with more peopleand it was more broadly
accepted and we had a better, Idon't care if it happened or
didn't happen, but obviouslythat story resonated in a way
that allowed this to propagatethroughout humanity and stay
around for a couple of thousandyears.

(44:58):
And we're seeing, with theshift of people towards
Christianity and a lot of thesecultural Christians coming about
, everybody's realizing thatthese are the rules, man, these
you know, even the allegoricstuff earlier on in the Old
Testament, like the underlyingmeaning that you're finding
through these things.
It is what it is, you know.

(45:21):
This is the true path forwardand for me that's where it was
like oh, okay, and it doesn'tmean I don't believe in Jesus or
that he did it, but I do.
I see it just a littledifferently.
So that's my thing.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
I think it's an and, and I do think I mean in the
research that I've done.
We all know I like to analyzethings.
There is a mountain of evidenceof a lot of what happened, not
only just the accuracy of thescripture, uh, of different
copies of things, because if alot of this was storytelling?

(45:55):
right, I'm saying it doesn'tmatter, no I understand that to
me because you're focused on thecultural benefit of it, which,
which is totally fine.
I just want to say like yes,you're within the confines of
the cultural benefit.
Uh, you're right, it doesn'tmatter.
I would say, and irrespectiveof how it was formed, I'm saying
, and I think there is amountain of evidence that does

(46:16):
point to it actually being trueUh, and part of me, I w, I was
at a place and you know when Istarted talking about I stepped
away for 15 years.
I was very much at a place whereI was like I had no affiliation
.
I remember going to confessionfor the first time in 17 years.
I thought the church was goingto burn down and it didn't.
But I've gone through differentphases and evolutions and

(46:39):
research on this stuff and I'vejust been surprised at how much
evidence has stacked up tosupport kind of what went down.
Again, not only the accuracy,but if you look at even at we
talked about religion how backin that day it was and this has
nothing to do with Catholicversus Christian, this is just
more the principles If you goback in that day, like Jewish

(47:03):
tradition was like that was oneA like religion and those sorts
of traditions and practices andthings.
That and everything else waskind of noise right.
That was the focus and when youlook back at this point in time
, like for a for society thatwas that rich in that tradition,
to have so many people shift soquickly to this different set

(47:27):
of beliefs, slash religion, waslike it's very difficult to
comprehend in historicalpurposes, to the point where
they say like something had tohave happened.
That was completely ridiculous,that wouldn't have, because
anything that would havehappened in the confines of
normal society would not havegenerated this sort of activity.

(47:51):
When you look at there's justdifferent things that the Case
for Christ and the Case forJesus are two really good books
for those of you who areanalytical and are looking to
explore more into this are tworeally good books that get into
some of the basis and foundationand talks about when the
gospels were written.
And obviously a lot of peopleknow that a lot of this was
passed down via storytelling fora period of decades in some

(48:15):
cases before it was actuallywritten down right.
And a lot of us are like therewere times where I was like,
okay, I can't even remember whathappened five years ago, let
alone I'm going to recallsomething from 30 years ago and
get it right, word for wordright.
But when you actually dig intothe historical context of the
time, storytelling was exactlyhow everything was conveyed.

(48:38):
People were better at it, theywere unbelievable, they could
memorize hundreds of pages ofthings and so they were able to,
over the course of time, veryaccurately pass on these stories
.
And then you hear about thedifferent people that are
attributed to the Gospels andhow quickly it got written down

(48:58):
relatively, and then again theaccuracy of those.
So it is interesting when youdig into it.
I was pleasantly surprised.
Well, I was surprised.
Pleasantly surprised.
Well, clearly I was pleasantlysurprised where I'm in, where I
am versus where I was in myfaith.
But I do think there was a lot,and I do tend to think there is
an element of literalness.
I mean, I guess I'm kind of ayou know for me, while, again,

(49:24):
you have to be mindful ofcertain words and translations.
I am going to err on the sideof a literal interpretation.
Here's the question, because Ithink just real quickly it gets.
It's a slippery slope when youstop?

Speaker 1 (49:41):
I think that's my question.
If someone gets to point A to B, does it matter and like, is
there a reason that you have toprove that everything in there
is 100% accurate or that thisabsolutely like?
If someone believes like inTJ's case, where he's like I
don't care if it did or didn't,it's got me from point A to B,
me from point A to B, why do wefeel like we need to prove a

(50:05):
point of no, it 100% is literaland this 100% happened or this
is 100% the true.
This is his body and his blood.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Why do you have to believe it to that extent and
push that on other people, Iwould say, to go back to what I
started the conversation with,which is, technically, if right
you say the hypothetical I knowyou guys don't sit on the side
of the fence, but if yoursalvation depended on it, right?
If, like John 6, for example wetalked about that the other day
he?
says in there well, john 6 isbasically when he feeds the

(50:39):
5,000 and they basically say hey, or he says hey, you're only
interested in me because I'mfeeding you.
I am the true body and blood.
It's through me that you'll getto heaven.
He goes through these three orfour iterations of this where
people are like dude, what areyou talking about?
You're talking about eatingyour actual body and blood.

(50:59):
This is weird.
And he basically doubles downand he's like yeah, that's
exactly what I'm saying.
I'm talking about this is truefood, my body and my blood.
Like that is the true way toheaven.
And then everyone like starts tolike they say they quarreled
among them.
Like people were like whoa,like this is ridiculous, and
even people who had droppedeverything and came and followed

(51:20):
him or whatever.
He says it again.
And like people start to peaceout, like everyone's leaving,
like this dude's, like he's offhis rocker, he's lost his
marbles, and then it's now.
It's like him and the apostles,so this is like everything he's
built.
And they're like this is reallyhard, like what, what?
And he's like do you want toleave too?
Like he's like this is likethis is my body and my blood, uh

(51:50):
.
And so he like triples down onthat, so that being the
foundation for the Eucharist inthe Catholic church, right, they
call it the discourse, thebread of life discourse, and so
if I were to say that's to beliterally interpreted, and
someone who is not, you know,taking the body and blood, if he
does say in there I forgetexactly what the words are, but
there's something to the effectof this is, how to get to heaven

(52:11):
is through my body and my blood.
And I believe that, if Ibelieve that you guys are going
to spend just hypothetically,right, if I believe you're going
to spend eternity in hell andI'm not saying that's the case
because I think the grace of Godand I think, beyond religions,
even denominations of otherreligions, people that are, I
think the grace of God will playa big role in this over time.
But if I believe this is a wayyou can guarantee right, then

(52:36):
that would be the reason that Ithink I would be interested, or
others would be interested, inquote unquote, pushing it on you
.
And quote unquote pushing it onyou because it's a it's a very
clear uh statement that says nowyou could say ah, you know,
didn't mean that, even though hetripled down or quadrupled down
on it, still figurative, stilla symbol, or there are other
things.
Yeah, I know he said this, buthe just kind of meant this or

(52:58):
I'm not, you know.
I think that's where it's aslippery slope.
It's a slippery slope and Idon't feel knowledgeable enough
to and this is where I've had toset my ego aside at times.
I don't feel knowledgeableenough to make that
determination on my own.
There's a magisterium of theCatholic Church who studies this
stuff and it's been not onlythe experience but in studying

(53:19):
for years and years and years,but passed down through a direct
lineage of people who have kindof set the standards for this.
And I guess I have had to.
It's been difficult, I have hadto kind of submit myself to
that body of knowledge andexperience that far exceeds my
own.
Because I think when peoplestart to read the Bible and make
their own interpretationswithout scholarly knowledge and

(53:42):
experience, that's where I thinkit gets to be a slippery slope
and with the pressures oftoday's society, why you can get
denominations and or religionsthat basically just mold to
whatever is convenient forsociety today.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, I think there's a problem there, but I also
think there's, like this happymedium which I think and again
I'm going to speak maybe alittle out of turn, you can
correct me if I make anystatements that are off kilter
but you make the comment thatPope Francis is by limited
exposure.
You say he's polarizing becausehe's a little more inclusive in
terms of the things that he'ssaying.

(54:15):
And I wonder because you made acomment earlier about if we're
the 10 people that have thewhole truth.
That's more impactful than ifthere's a million people that
have half the truth or somethingto that effect.
For me, that's more impactfulthan if there's a million people
that have half the truth orsomething to that effect.
For me, that's a foundationalproblem.
If you have something that isnot able to grow, then if you're
the tenant, it dies with you.
And I'm wondering and this islike making a lot of assumptions

(54:36):
and really maybe posturing ondivine intervention but is Pope
Francis in the role that PopeFrancis is in?
Because the Catholic faith hashit a point where, if we
continue to interpret the truththis particular way, we're going
to continue to see a declineand eventually this faith that

(55:00):
is supposed to be the way intoheaven is gone and God has
essentially failed humanity interms of providing them a
roadmap to the end.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
It's a fair question.
I think continuing to meetpeople where they're at is the
most important thing.
We've even had debates aboutthe chosen.
Like the chosen is a greatexample where they have taken
some liberties in theirinterpretation of the Bible and
scripture to where some withinthe Catholic circles, who are
very rigorous and strict, areless than pleased with some of

(55:34):
the liberties that they took.
However, it is attracting amuch broader audience and, on
the whole, bringing more peopleprobably towards Christianity
and or piquing an interest inChristianity.
That will at least again movethem in the right direction and
potentially pique curiosity fordeeper diving and deeper

(55:56):
discovery.
So I think you have to continueto meet people where they're at
.
I think that's important and Ithink the Catholic Church.
There are pros and cons to beingslow to change.
I think they're slow to change,to give in to the pressures of
society and the lifestyles thatwe're all wanting to live this
day and age.
I think there are somechallenges with being able to

(56:18):
also relate to people who areliving lifestyles that are
different from when the churchwas founded, who are living
lifestyles that are differentfrom when the church was founded
, and so we've got to figure.
I think as a church.
We're trying to figure outCatholic church I think even
Christianity too falls into thistrying to figure out how to
relate to people outside of thewalls.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
You're constantly redeveloping, like you're
redefining yourself to try torelate to people.
I think the one thing thatsticks in my mind is that whole
this is my body and my true bodyand blood, as that could be
interpreted as the way to heavenis through me, could be literal
you're eating my actual flesh.
Or it could be like I am thespirit, I am one.
I am like this is a very and sowhen you take other religions

(57:05):
that don't interpret it that way, that have the same amount of
research, the same amount ofscholarly, the same amount of
all that, and it's interpretedtwo different ways, it's like,
okay, no, this, and so I thinkthat's where it gets interesting
.
And then, at what point, froman ego standpoint, do we feel

(57:27):
like we have to?
I think you hit it.
It's like, well, if I'mresponsible for someone else's
salvation, I think that's aninteresting thing about religion
, because I don't think Godwould make someone else fully
responsible for another person'ssalvation.
However, there's the wholeevangelistic side of things,
which is really a lot, probablymore progressive in some of the

(57:48):
other denominations or jehovahwitnesses.
So there is something about,you know, going out and
preaching the good word and thegospel.
So there's a component of that.
I don't think someone'ssalvation completely rides on
your ability to go out and, andyou know, bullhorn it.
I think it's throughintercession with God.
I think that's where we really,when we go to war in prayer for

(58:10):
other people, I think inprivate, that is a very positive
way to intercede in someone'slife.
But I just think it'sinteresting because, regardless
of the topic or regardless ofthe interpretation, we get so
dead set in this is it?
This is the interpretation.
And back to TJ's point is I'mnot sure it matters.

(58:32):
I'm not sure it matters if it'sliteral or not.
Literal in the sense of, likeyou need to prove to me that
it's literal.
So I know you're right and Ineed to prove to you that it's
not literal, because this is theway I interpret it.
But at the end of the day,we're both living a life of
faith, with Christ at theforefront, trying to help people
.

Speaker 3 (58:51):
It only matters if it's not literal.
Not necessarily.
My point is if it's not literal, then it matters, right.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
I mean, if it's not?

Speaker 2 (59:01):
literal it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
But if it actually is literal, and it is truly the
case, that right, it's almostlike that friend.
They say like the friend, thetrue friend, will tell you, like
when you're screwing up atsomething, and they'll give you
that candid feedback.
And the ones who aren't, we'lljust kind of like, let you do
your thing.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
But you're never going to know that with
certainty.
Well, I know you're never goingto know that with certainty.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
Well, I know you're never going to know that with
certainty, but that's wherebelief and faith comes in.
So I think that's the toughthing is like well, because I
can't prove it to you, that thisverse, this is what Jesus meant
in this verse, right, eventhough people said well, that's
weird.
Yes, eat my flesh, drink myblood, wait what?
Yeah, no, so because that isand I think that's the case with

(59:44):
a lot of this because you don'thave 100% certainty, if I still
believe that your salvation foreternity is on the line, should
I just like well, I can't proveit, so you do your thing.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
Well, if you're saying that's the only way into
heaven, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
It only matters if it's not literal.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Well, even if that story, literal or non-literal,
if you're saying that's the onlyway into heaven, is taking the
Eucharist on a regular basis ina Catholic church, then I think
we got another problem right.
So if it's literal ornon-literal and you're saying
that's the only way into heaven,and that again is problematic
for me in general, because Idon't think that's the case, no,

(01:00:21):
I don't think the and I wouldsay, which makes it not as
important if it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
I love the fact that you disclosed all of this with
we're not scholars or educatedon all this.
We're all talkingprofessionalism, but I want to
say there is, the Catholicswould not, like the Catholic
community would not, say wedon't say who does go to heaven
and who doesn't go to heaven.
We are not.
Nobody can guarantee or saysomeone has or hasn't gone to
heaven.
I think the saints that's alittle bit of a gray area,

(01:00:44):
because the Catholic Church doesbelieve the saints are in
heaven, based on the fact thatthey performed miracles or
achieved other kind of criteriaalongside that.
Where were we going?
I just lost my train of thoughtthere.
What were you just saying?
I'm not sure where you weregoing.
Actually, I think it's maybejust the literalness of oh.

(01:01:11):
The Catholic community does notguarantee or know who's going
to heaven or not.
Their ability is we're going tointerpret the scripture to the
best of our abilities.
What Jesus expects of usanticipates us.
We are going to be as true tothat as we possibly can because
we believe that gives us thebest chance to get to heaven and
be with him for eternity.
Now, no one in their right mindshould be.

(01:01:33):
If they're looking atChristians of other
denominations.
I don't think any goodpracticing, well-formed Catholic
would say you're not going toheaven or you're not going to
heaven.
That would be taboo from aCatholic perspective.
But we would go as far to saythese are the things that we
feel do move us in thatdirection of being more likely

(01:01:56):
to spend heaven.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Now that I like the way you articulated it, but
earlier you said well, if yourguys' going to heaven or hell is
on the line because you don'tbelieve this and you don't take
the Eucharist, and if you don'ttake the Eucharist, then you're
not going to heaven or hell.
That's a very literalinterpretation of we believe
that this is going to help usget there, versus in the absence
of this, you guys are SOL.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
No, I think that's what.
When you had said.
What prompted that comment washey, what's it matter?
Why do you need to push it onme?
And I said I don't need to pushit on you and it doesn't matter
, as long as the Bible was notintended to be taken literally.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
So if, at the end of the day, all that matters is,
but even if it was literally,you're saying, even if it was
literal, whether I believe thatexact story or not, interpret
the way it is and participate inthat.
That is, I guess I'm trying toeither get into heaven or not,
even if that's literal, I haveto do that to get into heaven Is
that what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
I'm not saying I can't ever make the
determination.
I think what I could go as farto say is the Catholic Church
believes that the Eucharist is acomponent of giving yourself a
greater likelihood of getting toheaven.
And so for someone that's notdoing that if I knew I couldn't
guarantee right, but I knew thatwas going to push you guys in
the right direction if you weretaking the Eucharist on a weekly

(01:03:18):
basis and it was the differencepotentially could be the
difference right Of you spendingheaven or you know, because I
think what's interesting aboutsome of this is, you know,
taking the Eucharist on a weeklybasis, like what compound and
what triggers and what otherbehavioral changes might that
prompt and things in your life?
I think there's maybe more tothis, but if that were the case,

(01:03:41):
that would be the reason why Iwould quote push it on you for
sake of being the good friendand maybe telling you something
you don't want to hear, eventhough I think it might
ultimately benefit you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
I think, at the end of the day, for me, again, going
back to my kind of perspectiveon this, it all has to be
metaphorical and I'm just.
This is again.
You know it's just it's a funjuxtaposition.
The reason I say that is becauseI think the stories need to
evolve and I think there arecertain beliefs and certain
things that are, that areinstilled in cultures and are
acceptable at particular times,that if you perceive something
literally would be again kind ofa tenet of the faith, like one

(01:04:20):
of the things that's interestingwith Catholicism and the
exposure and maybe Christianityin general.
Right, we were talking the otherday about drugs and different
levels of substances and alcohol, ranking near cocaine in terms
of the way that it affects thebody, in terms of damaging the
body over a longer period oftime and how bad it can be.
In my experience when we wereCatholics, drinking is a major

(01:04:43):
part of that community.
And then, of course, there isthe element of the Eucharist
with the wine itself and again,that's nuanced and maybe a
little bit over the top.
But if everything is so literalin the component because a lot
of the Bible is celebrating inthat manner if it is literal and
not figurative and it's notreally about the underlying

(01:05:05):
meaning of the story, then Ithink over time some of those
traditions or some of thosethings that are baked into the
literalness of the Bible becomeless digestible by future
civilizations, future culturesand therefore again, stops the
spread of it all.
So that's kind of my close.

Speaker 3 (01:05:27):
Don't you think it's fascinating, though, that the
Bible hasn't changed at all andit has lasted through an
incredible number?

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
of civilizations, but if it's metaphorical, it
doesn't need to change.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
Well, but you said the stories need to evolve.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
No, I said—.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
Maybe just clarify that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
Yeah, that's my bad.
No, my point is that if it islooked upon as being
metaphorical or allegoric, thatyou can perceive it however you
want relative to the time youlive in.
Now, again, I think you'reright.
In a sense, I do agree with you.
There's a fine line there.
Right, because and it goes backto a lot of the premise of
everything we've discussed inall of our podcasts is the
second that you start to justsay oh, I want to live this way,

(01:06:04):
this way, this way, this way,this way and this way.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
Let's call it this denomination.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Let's call it.
I think that where I takesolace is that it is in our
collective moral wiring.
We've made the comment in priorpodcasts about everybody
probably wants this at the endof the day, and it's these
generic, high level assumptionsthat categorize and stereotype
people without having a fullconversation with them to

(01:06:30):
understand.
And I think that this is verysimilar.
We're all kind of morally wiredthe same way and so for the
most part, we're going toperceive these lessons as it
relates to that physiologicalwiring or mental wiring, and
then the things that areanecdotal to that time period

(01:06:50):
kind of don't matter as muchanymore and can age in whatever
way they see fit.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
I'd like to shift just a little bit and we've kind
of talked about Christianity asa whole and differences and
some of those nuances that existjust within our three families.
Right, and I would say, for youand your family there's
probably differences and, again,we've tried to be open and have
good dialogue and debate, eventhough we clearly believe things

(01:07:21):
that are slightly different.
But Christianity as a whole, orhaving faith and believing in
something, maybe we could eachtouch on that a little bit
individually, like how that hasimpacted your psyche or how that
plays into your day-to-day,because I believe mental,
physical, spiritual there'sthree layers in us and maybe you

(01:07:42):
think it's different and I'dlove that if you do.
But if you have spiritual,mental and physical, talk about
the spiritual component in yourlife and how important it is,
regardless of what denominationyou are, regardless of what you
believe, how has spiritualityimpacted your life and your
beliefs?

Speaker 3 (01:08:00):
I'll just say for me it's given me a considerable
amount of purpose, is the bigthing Honoring God with the
gifts and talents I've beengiven and trying to deploy those
and have as much impact aspossible with those.
And I think that perspectivehas allowed me to get much more
out of myself than I wouldnormally if I am kind of more

(01:08:25):
solving for my own outcomes.
And so I would just pull backjust a second to say that I also
, when I was in that 15-year gap, I got to a point where, like,
I was even exploring theexistence of God.
Right, it was like, okay, thisis a very convenient story.
Every religion you know, forthe, you know it was the Greek
gods, it was that, and thenthese.

(01:08:47):
It's like there's been allthese different versions of this
and how is our God?
You know, because I even in mytime at Liberty Mutual, in my
prior career, I worked with alot of people overseas in India
who have completely differentfaith practices and you know,
knowing them as human beings andpeople and having that exposure
kind of challenged me a littlebit to this was interesting

(01:09:09):
about it as I started to diginto this and I don't know that
I necessarily went through allthat.
But I think sometimes, tj youmentioned, things aren't well
thought out.
It's like I'm just not going tobelieve that there's this, like
you know, creator or whatever,this magic person out there
that's moving all the piecesaround.
It's like when you start tothink about the alternatives of
like this coming from nothingand of nothing of nothing, and

(01:09:31):
then like something just came ofsomething from nothing is just
like.
To me it starts to get a lotmore interesting when you weigh
the alternatives right.
And I think that's evensimilarly biblically.
And that's where I started toshift.
As I was watching these debatesbetween agnostics or atheists
and archbishops, that's where Istarted to shift.
It was like hold on a second.

(01:09:52):
Yeah, this might be unlikely.
You could say this is unlikely.
Hell, yeah, it's unlikely thatsomeone raised from the dead and
it's unlikely.
But how does it compare to this?
Is this any more likely?
No, not at all, far less likely.
And so for me that's where eventhe existence of a God shifted.

(01:10:13):
And then, of course, over thetime of really digging in and
researching things that led meto where I am.
But I would say, to go back toyour question, for me it has
taken some pressure off as well.
It has allowed me to instillhumility and, exemplifying
certain characteristics andtraits that Jesus did.
I think it's allowed me to growin some of those ways

(01:10:34):
vulnerability that have allowedme to again better deploy those
gifts and talents, taking thepressure off that I don't feel
like it's all got to be me andI've got to do this.
It's like I have support andpsychologically there's some
freedom in that, so I'll leaveit at that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
I mean very similar.
It's helped me to establish atrue north and my kids are
especially Kay because of bodyand training is exposed to a lot
of scripture and I think itjust reinforces the set of rules
and morality through examplesin Christ that help us live our

(01:11:10):
best lives and end up where wewant to be.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
I would say for me, um, I got a point.
I got to a point in my lifewhere I couldn't cope or handle
the pressures that I was I wasbeing given and, um, as a young
business owner at age 34, Ithink you have the opportunity
to turn to a vice, right?
You can drinking infidelity youcan, I mean, you can get into a

(01:11:40):
lot of different things, and Iwas lucky to have God put some
really good people in my lifeand that, you know, led me to
Christ, you know, as kind of thefocal point.
And so the other thing is,during that same period of time,
I focused from an inward lifeto an outward life, where I was
spending a lot of time focusingon myself, what I wanted, what I

(01:12:03):
needed, what I wanted toachieve, and it allowed me to
start focusing on others.
And I think you talked aboutpurpose.
There's a lot there that we can.
When you believe in a higherbeing, higher being, it does
take pressure off, um, you knowbelieving in god and and jesus,
um, and everyone was created andand we're trying to live a life

(01:12:25):
to help other people.
It's just, it is a freeingthing.
And and going back to, you knowpraying on offense.
Going to god for other peoplehas been an incredible
transformation for me personallybecause, again, when you want
the best for everybody andyou're willing to go to war for
other people, it'stransformational.
And I've found that when I'mnot focusing on myself, I'm much

(01:12:47):
happier.
It's hard like when I'm thinkingabout other people.
It's really hard to be like, oh, get down on myself.
Or oh, I don't have this, andit's just like, oh, if I'm just
trying to focus on other people,this, this actually works a lot
better.
So it's been a huge componentin my life as a leader and it
continues to be a huge influencein my life.
I'd like to close on one thing.

(01:13:09):
I'm going to do this kind ofspontaneously, but I think this
would be a great episode too, soI'm going to let Todd talk
about this and you'll get aclose up.
But he developed a cross.
It's called Eternize Cross orCrucifix.
Why don't you tell everybodykind of the premise behind it

(01:13:30):
and where they can get it?

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
yeah, so this was just as part of my faith journey
I mentioned I had stepped awayfor 15 plus years and as I was
getting back into the faithjourney, I really struggled to
do so in today's society,because you want to stay
spiritually mindful and it'sreally hard to do in today's
society.
There are so many distractionsand you're pulled in so many
different directions that Ifound myself you know I would go

(01:13:54):
to church on Sunday or even, asI grew in my faith, I would
have these other events eitherevery so often, immersive type
events or other things thatmaybe go to adoration, the gap
in between and really like stayspiritually mindful and embed my
spiritual mindset intoeverything I was doing day to
day.
I just really really struggledwith that, and so over the
course of the last seven yearsnow this has gone from idea yeah

(01:14:14):
, seven, almost seven yearssince I first mentioned the idea

(01:14:42):
to a friend and the amount ofpeople that God has put I truly
believe, a lot of the ideas thathave come from this just they
and the people God has put inthe way of this journey to keep
me on this path.
I mean, you think about sevenyears, like sticking with
something that has not hit themarket, been on shelves,
anything.
There's no revenue, there's nonothing.

(01:15:03):
The.
The ability to stick with thisis well beyond my own personal
capabilities, but, uh, really,what this does is it is, uh, it
has haptic feedback.
It vibrates throughout the dayto whatever schedule or pattern
or intensity that you deem to bemost appropriate for yourself.
It vibrates to just pull youback in mentally to feel that

(01:15:26):
strength.
Could be a frustrating momentat work where you're ready to
lose yourself and you get thatnotification to pull it back in,
find a way to channel thatenergy productively, find a way
to get on the other side of thatsituation without doing
reputational damage, or you'vegot a kid or kids at home and
you're just ready to completelyfreak out.

(01:15:47):
You could feel his strength andhis patience come through you
in this.
So, the different times thatthis has hit me, I've been
wearing a prototype and we'vehad 15 to 20 others that have
been heavily testing this out toreally refine this experience
and distill it down to where wehave it now.

(01:16:07):
It is the amount of feedbackthat we've gotten ways.
This has helped people withinthe moments and win these
critical moments that we'refaced with each day.
And then more broadly, justkind of integrating that
spiritual mindset into theirsecular lives has been super
powerful, and myeternizecom isthe website.

(01:16:31):
We're going to be launching aKickstarter campaign here soon
to kick things off.
That will probably be the bestplace to get them most
discounted, so when we have thatavailable, we can post that in
the notes or more informationabout it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
But yeah, I just want to share one story of an
experience I had with the crossabout staying present.
To share one story of anexperience I had with the cross
about staying present.
I was at a place where I wasasked to speak on praying on
offense.
I was there with another friendand we were speaking to this
group of leaders and I have mycross set to the Holy Spirit

(01:17:08):
mode, which I love because itvibrates randomly throughout the
day.
I have no idea.
So like, if it's at eighto'clock, I get used to it at 8
o'clock, so this goes offwhenever.
It's probably some algorithmthat programs it, no clue.
So we get to the end of thispresentation and me and my buddy
are sitting there and the guysays I'm going to ask one of you
guys to pray.
I'm going to ask one of you tocommit one more fearless act of

(01:17:31):
humility.
I'd like you to pray for thisentire group.
And immediately, as he saidthat, I was like thinking, okay,
I'm going to talk first.
I'm going to be like, hey, mybuddy's going to pray, because I
don't feel comfortable prayingin front of a bunch of people,
and so I already got this kindof in my mind that he's going to
pray and then, as he's talking,it's like God was saying no,
this is your time, this is yourprayer.

(01:17:53):
And it went off right.
I mean the fact I don't knowhow many seconds there are on a
day, but it went off in a fivesecond window that it could only
go off, and I took thatopportunity.
And so, when the moment I was,I'm like you know what God's
telling me, this is myopportunity, I'm going to jump
in and I'm going to take thisprayer here.
So, there, I think there iseven some divine intervention in
things like this.
So, eternize, unbelievableproduct and, looking forward to

(01:18:18):
that, helping a lot of peoplewin their moments.
You guys got anything else fora wrap?

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
Way to go.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
This has been fun, a lot of good debates.
Again you kind of can see theflavor that we all have a little
bit of differences, believingin something.
We've all kind of gone awayfrom Christianity and back into
our faith and it's become acritical component of our life.
We all look at it just a littlebit differently but at the end

(01:18:49):
of the day we're trying to focuson other people and do things
outwardly, trying to help people.
So hope you guys found somegold and we look forward to
seeing you next time.