20: Why Monash Serving Sizes Change — And How to Confidently Follow the Low FODMAP Diet With Dede Wilson - The GutFit Nutrition Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Those entries are telling you what that batch of food showed
for FODMAP content in lab testing.
The lab testing was accurate. Whatever that number is, it was
real, but it was real for what was tested.
Now, they didn't just test 1 grape, No one's just testing 1
grape, and no one's just testinga bunch of grapes from one

(00:23):
supermarket. What they do is they will go out
and they will buy several batches of grapes from several
different supermarkets. They'll bring them back.
All of this is combined, so it'sreally a mean.
Welcome to the Gut Fit NutritionPodcast, the show where we dive
deep into the world of gut health, nutrition and fitness to

(00:44):
help you unlock your best self from the inside out.
I'm your host Lee Morado, a registered dietitian, gut health
expert, long distance runner, and movement enthusiast on a
mission to empower you with science backed whole body
strategies to fuel your body, heal your gut, and thrive in
your active life. Whether you're here to finally
break free from IBS and digestive symptoms, optimize

(01:05):
your fitness performance, or learn how to support your gut
health natural strategies, you're in the right place.
Each week, we'll explore topics like conquering digestive
symptoms, building a gut friendly lifestyle, enhancing
endurance and strength performance, and more.
So grab a cup of your favorite gut friendly tea and settle in
because we're about to get gut fit together.

(01:26):
Today we're tackling a topic that sparks a lot of questions
and sometimes even a bit of frustration in the IBS and low
FODMAP diet community. Why do Monash FODMAP serving
sizes keep changing? If you're following the low
FODMAP diet and felt confused when your favorite food serving
suddenly changes, you're not alone.
In this episode we're breaking down why these changes happen,

(01:47):
how you can stay up to date and what this means for you if
you're following the low FODMAP diet.
I'm joined by a very special guest, Dade Wilson.
Dade is the co-owner of FODMAP Everyday, your go to resource
for high quality articles, product lists and delicious
recipes that help you thrive on the low FODMAP diet.
She's a professional recipe developer, author of over 17

(02:08):
cookbooks, former Bon Appetit magazine editor and Monash
University and FODMAP friendly accredited educator.
Dade also lives with IBS herself, which means she brings
both expert knowledge and lived experience to her work.
Together, we'll explore why foodserving sizes on the low FODMAP
diet are constantly evolving, how to make sense of these

(02:28):
changes, and the best strategiesto move forward with confidence
in your IBS and gut health journey.
Hey, welcome Dade, I'm so excited to chat with you today.
Especially with all the recent monarch FODMAP changes.
I thought this episode was very timely.
And I know you're definitely an expert in the low FODMAP diet.
So thanks so much for coming on today.

(02:50):
No, I'm excited. I mean, you've been such a great
adjunct to our FODMAP everyday team.
If, if all of you listening havenot read all of Lee's articles
yet on our website, definitely come check them out.
So yes, that's what we're all here to help.
We're here to help all of you who are dealing with digestive
issues at home. Yeah.

(03:11):
And yeah, FODMAP everyday is such an amazing resource.
I was just looking on there today and you've, I think,
published a few really great articles in the last month or so
that I bookmarked that I have toread.
There was one on, I think, the difference between having a
gastroenterologist and a dietitian and why they're both
essential and the unique roles they play.

(03:31):
So I thought that was a good one.
I'm gonna read that and share itas well after too.
So yeah, just to get started, why don't you tell us a bit more
about FODMAP everyday and reallythe how things started and and
how long you've been around for?Yeah.
So I, my initial career was in recipe development.

(03:53):
So I'm a professional recipe developer.
And I had been working, I'd beenpublishing cookbooks.
I had published about 16 books under my name.
I was an editor at Bon Appetit magazine for about 14 years.
I mean, I was deep into food andonly my immediate family knew
that I was suffering with IBS, you know, professionally.

(04:16):
My cohorts didn't know. And there were times I was
really suffering. I mean, when my kids were
little, you know, three days outof the week, they were coming
home from school and mommy was in bed, you know, with her, her
tummy, you know, problems. And I, you know, discovered the
diet about 25 years in to dealing with my IBS.

(04:39):
And at that point in time, I hadseen gastroenterologists early
in the 1990s, you know, he suggested try going dairy free,
try going gluten free. And I did and I had some measure
of relief, but certainly not complete.
And I was still getting bamboozled with, you know,

(05:01):
horrible IBS flare ups. Ended up in the hospital in
2015, was introduced to the diet.
And for me, the light bulb moment was when I had a great GI
was the one who happened to be on call.
And he said to me, and this is going back to 2015, He said to
me there's a lot of misinformation online about the

(05:22):
diet. He said just stick with Monash,
download the Monash app and follow the Monash app.
So while I was in the hospital, I did that.
And as soon as I looked at the app and I saw the red, yellow
and green lights, my recipe developer head went into gear

(05:42):
because I was very well aware that most people would look at
this, they would see the red lights, they would panic, they
would think deprivation, They would think, how can I do this?
This is horrible. But my brain started looking at
all those green lights and started saying, but you could
use this and you could use that and you could use those two
things together, can cook with these things.

(06:03):
And so I basically made a pact with myself because I, I was
crying to my husband. I was sitting there in the
hospital saying my career is over.
How the heck am I going to continue to develop recipes?
And then here this diet came along and I thought, you know
what, if this helps me, then I'mgoing to pivot.
I'm going to use my recipe development skills to help
others learned that they can eatand they can get better and the

(06:28):
diet did work for me. Fodmaps were a primary issue for
me and that's how I launched FODMAP Every day.
The the idea of the branding forFODMAP Every Day came up because
I thought to myself, OK, you're told to follow this diet.
A lot of people live in families, even if there's only
one other person or maybe you'rea family with several other

(06:50):
people who are not following thediet.
So how are you going to do this on an everyday basis?
How are you going to eat breakfast?
How are you going to make lunch and get out the door?
How are you going to make dinnerfor more than one person where
you can all eat delicious food, but the person following the
diet can still adhere to the diet.
And so that's how FODMAP Everyday came to be.

(07:11):
My partner Robin and I, it took us quite a while to come up with
our motto, but when we came uponthe word thrive, that's what
sealed it all for us. Because believe me, I empathize.
If you're listening to this right now and you're one of
those people that is still in somuch pain, you don't know what's
going on. You feel like every single thing

(07:31):
you put in your mouth creates havoc.
I have been there. I have been there.
And I'm telling you that we can help you not just learn to get
by, but we can help you learn tothrive on the diet.
We will help you have a positiverelationship with food.
And that's where dietitians comein.
It's so important. And today we're going to talk

(07:53):
about one of the more confusing things, which is, I mean,
certainly the reintroduction phase when you're challenging
foods is the most difficult part.
And when you know the gauges when the barometers change, that
adds a whole layer of complexity.
I don't think I've heard that full background story yet, so

(08:15):
that's interesting. No, but you really took
something that was a big challenge and a roadblock for
you and turned it into, you knowa very successful resource and
and business, which I think a lot of good businesses start
that way, you know. That's right, we're passionate.
There's something that's missingfor people and you create that
that resource and you've helped so many, so many.

(08:37):
Can I ask how many years ago wasthat that FODMAP every day?
Launched 2015 is when I discovered the diet.
By the time we launched A FODMAPevery day, it's this November,
October, November, it's going tobe 9 years, nine years, full
time educating about the diet. And it's been fantastic.
You know, we love hearing from people, you know, and that's it,

(09:01):
right? One at a time, one at a time,
just changing people's lives andhelping people get better.
Yeah, for sure. Awesome.
And can I ask how did you and Robin meet?
How did you? This is our third business.
Robin and I met. Robin and I met in college and
we we had a catering business together.
We owned a bakery together. It was always food related, but

(09:25):
brick and mortar. And this was obviously a
digitally based business, which was brand new for her.
And yeah, we love working together.
Robin doesn't have IBS. She always says she goes, I'm
lucky I don't have IBS, but she manages our business and we do
all of the, you know, important business decisions together.

(09:48):
We've always, and also, I mean just in terms of women and
businesses, like we've always run our business 5050,
everything's 5050. Like we totally respect that
what I do and what she does equally important.
None of this would happen if it weren't for the other and we
work really well together. So it's been quite enjoyable.
Yeah. And it's, we've grown into, I
think, yeah, one of the top low FODMAP diet resources.

(10:13):
We've worked very hard. Yeah, awesome.
So for those listening, I'm assuming there's going to be a
lot of listeners that are currently following the low
FODMAP diet or or low FODMAP curious let's say.
But just to set this stage for those who maybe need a refresher
on what the low FODMAP diet is. FODMAPS is an acronym stands for

(10:35):
fermentable oligosaccharides, disaccharides, monosaccharides
and polyols. Essentially they are a group of
fermentable carbohydrates that when they enter our large bowel,
they get fermented broken down by our gut bacteria in different
microbes. And in that process, there is
gas production, which in the normal healthy population does

(10:56):
not cause any issues. But for those with IBS who often
have visceral hypersensitivity, more sensitive nerves in the
gut, it can cause higher sensations of pain and
discomfort and symptoms like bloating, cramping, even loose
stool, diarrhea and gas. So the low FODMAP diet is a
process. It's not a long term diet that

(11:18):
is meant to really help you understand which Fodmaps may be
triggers for you through phase one, which is the elimination
diet where we follow low FODMAP servings of foods to the
reintroduction phase. Once you have good symptom
control, you strategically test back in FODMAP groups in
different amounts to assess whatyour tolerance levels are and

(11:39):
then the personalization phase where then you know which
Fodmaps you need to limit long term and you have a more
liberalized diet while still maintaining symptom control.
So I think it's probably something that you often tell
people or mention in your content that low FODMAP is not a
long term diet, it's meant to bea process.
Well, actually, no, I find that I think that Monash University,

(12:05):
I think Monash even contradicts themselves.
I do say it's long term because I think the biggest confusion
about the personalization phase,the final phase is that it's not
the thing that you do when it's over, you know, So the goal of
the diet, just so that we're allclear, the goal of the diet is

(12:26):
to help you eat as broadly as possible without triggering
symptoms, right? Because we all, all of you who
are, are listening to this, who want to be free of pain and
negative symptoms. I mean, that's a huge goal.
At the same time, what's going to happen simultaneously is
because you are adding more foods back and learning what you

(12:47):
can tolerate, you're going to bedeveloping a more nutritionally
sound diet than you were during elimination.
I mean, during elimination, it'smuch more structured, much more
limited. So by the time you get to the
third phase, you have broadened your diet.
But the big thing that I'm always reminding people is that
it is not static. So let's say it's September 1st,

(13:08):
right? You've been doing, you've been
doing the third phase and you'velearned a whole bunch of stuff
and you're like, now I know I can have a scoop of ice cream
every once in a while, but I can't have ice cream every day.
Like whatever it is that you've learned.
Well, that's what, you know, on September 1st, in December, your
microbiome is not static, your digestive tract is not static.

(13:31):
The FODMAP content of food, and that's what we're going to get
into is not static. And This is why Monash always
suggests that you can constantly, you know, re
challenge if there's something that you failed, try it again
down the line. And so in that sense, that third
phase is an evolutionary Phase. I consider myself on the low

(13:53):
FODMAP diet. My personal version of the low
FODMAP diet that I started in 2015 doesn't look anything like
it does today. But I am still on a protocol in
the sense that I'm not just eating everything.
I never went back to eating everything, but I'm eating a ton
more than when I started this diet.

(14:14):
I have an understanding of what my limits are and I'm constantly
trying to push the edges a little bit so I consider it a
long term diet, but it doesn't look the same.
It's not static. Yeah.
So I should clarify, it's the elimination phase where you're.
Absolutely. Green servings of foods which we

(14:36):
will define what that means is not long is not long term,
that's short term, but your personalized version of it where
you have or should have a more flexible version of the
elimination phase where there's foods that you eat in higher
quantities, that is long term and it right over time.
And you know, we're going to talk about that middle phase

(14:57):
that that reintroduction phase. So you know, let's talk a little
bit about the transition. So people come to the
elimination, come to the Phase 1, the elimination phase, and if
Fodmaps are their issue and theystart eating lower FODMAP and
it's not 0 FODMAP, it's not no FODMAP.

(15:18):
It's lowered, greatly lowered, reduced Fodmaps.
If Fodmaps are their problem, they're going to find some
relief pretty quickly. And what happens to a great
majority of people that we speakwith is that they start feeling
better and they go, I don't wantto move on from here.
This is the first time that I have some bowel control.

(15:39):
This is the first time that I'm not looking like I'm 8 months
pregnant and can't wear pants, you know, and, and that's the
improvement can be so powerful that we understand why you might
not want to rock the boat, right?
But you as a dietitian and me asa FODMAP educator, we understand

(16:00):
that it's vital for your microbiome, for your general
nutritional health and psychologically too, right?
You want to broaden your diet asmuch as possible for your mental
health and your physical health.And that is what that second
phase is all about. That is what the reintroduction
phase is all about is, is reallyinvestigating your unique

(16:26):
relationship to Fodmaps. And that's the other thing
rightly, that we talk about a lot.
You're on social media, I'm on social media.
Certainly there are aspects to social media that are helpful,
but there are some aspects that are really not helpful.
And one of the things that's nothelpful is, you know, let's say
you're suppose you're you're at that point where you've calmed

(16:49):
your symptoms and you're supposed to start
reintroduction. And the idea of testing Onion
has you in a tizzy, like you're afraid.
You're afraid you don't want to throw off your bowels.
You don't want to be in pain. So you go on social media and
you say, how did you guys do? How did you do with your onion

(17:11):
reintroduction? And people start saying things.
Onions are the devil. Like people literally say that,
right? Onions are evil.
I will never be able to eat onions again.
OK, So those people may believe those things, right?
But the point is that those things may not be true for you.

(17:32):
And just reading those things ona subconscious level, you're
taking that in. You're you're onions.
Onions are bad. Onions are bad.
This is the opposite of where wewant to be, right?
We want to be methodical with ourselves and understand that

(17:53):
our own digestive tract is not like that person, that person,
or that person on Reddit or Facebook or TikTok and that we
need to pay attention to our experience with these foods.
Because I use oats as a as a granular example.
So for instance, when I was doing my reintroduction and all

(18:14):
of my challenges, if you look atthe Monash app and you see that
it'll say like in theory, you should be able to eat about 40
grams of rolled oats. And in theory, that means you
could have 40 grams of oats for breakfast.
You could have 40 grams of oats at lunch, and you could have 40
grams of oats at dinner because in theory, there's enough time

(18:36):
in between. And this is the low FODMAP
amount. Well, what I discovered for me
is that I can't even eat oats 2 days in a row.
I can eat them every once in a while, but not even 2 days in a
row. Now the app doesn't tell me that
someone on social media can't tell me that they can tell me

(18:57):
what their experience was. But I had to go through the
challenges myself for my body tounderstand what my limit is.
And so if I'm going out with someone for brunch and there's
like some sort of amazing oat pancakes or some, you know,
Maple oat granola that looks incredible, I know that I can

(19:19):
have it. And then just the next day, I'm
not having oatmeal, I'm not having an oat protein bar, you
know, and this is, this is the, I think this is the joy, this is
the fascination of the reintroduction phase.
You're going to be able to learnwhat you can eat.
And that is a very powerful thing.

(19:41):
Well, yeah, even going back to your point about The Onion and
posting about it, I think I've seen that in some of the low
FODMAP Facebook groups and I always get a little bit of
stress for the person. But it speaks to like and the
psycho biological nature of IBS.Like we know there's the gut
brain component. And a lot of times in IBS people

(20:03):
will actually create or develop some anxiety before eating a
food and that can actually trigger symptoms rather than the
food alone. So it actually may be working
against you to kind of reach outand look at all these threads
online and even psych yourself out more.
Before doing a reintroduction because it actually may

(20:23):
contribute to, you know, worsened response.
And I think, yeah, there's always that connection between
what we're telling yourself and our mindset and how our body
actually feels. If we always tell ourselves
everything hurts, we're in pain.This hurts, hurts so much.
It actually we, we've seen studies that it can make make
the pain worse versus, you know,speaking to ourselves more
gently and not using such inflammatory words, which we

(20:46):
talked about. We did that recording on
visceral hypersensitivity. In fact, I have it LinkedIn
Episode 2 so people can go back if they wanna.
Learn more about. That too, yeah.
Going back a little bit, backtracking to the elimination
phase, So what I tend to see a lot with new clients who have
been on low FODMAP elimination, so not personalized, but

(21:08):
elimination for years, some of them 10 years.
I often, I often like to dig a little bit deeper and say, how
are you following the low FODMAPdiet?
What do you use to find your servings?
And you know, probably about 5060% of the time they'll say,
well, I just Googled something or I, you know, my, my GI gave

(21:30):
me a list 10 years ago and I'll look at that and I'll look on
websites or Reddit threads or whatever.
So I often have to tell them, well, you know, based on what we
know and who developed the diet.So Monash University developed
the low FODMAP diet. You'll want to use the Monash
FODMAP app because they'll have the most up to date serving

(21:50):
sizes. And then I'll also mention
FODMAP friendly. I don't know about you, but
personally I tend to default towards Monash if they don't
agree. But you can use both for
reference. What would you say about?
Sort of. You know, it's interesting, I
think the confusion, I think it's easier to default to Monash
for a variety of reasons. But I think just as you said,
you know, that their researchersdeveloped the diet and so that's

(22:13):
where people sort of they get stuck.
But so just so everybody knows, Sue Shepherd, who went on to
found FODMAP friendly, was on that team.
She was a researcher at Monash. So I look at Monash and FODMAP
Friendly both as primary sources.
That's the way I word I use because they are both doing lab

(22:36):
testing and the labs they they have different lab protocols.
So Monash is in house primarily FODMAP friendly is not you know,
certain scientific approaches would tell you that having the
third party testing is is more appropriate in social media.
A lot of people really like FODMAP friendly because they

(23:00):
will give you the maximum amountof a serving of a low FODMAP
serving and Monash does not always do that.
So we used both and I think thisis a good Segway because they
can differ. So just so everyone's clear,
what this means is you can look up a food, right?
Green grapes. I'm and I'm just pulling.
I can't think exactly right now.One that I know for a fact is

(23:23):
different, but I'm pretty sure green grapes are.
So just take a food, any food and you can look them up in in
both of the apps and they might say different things.
Now most people default to thinking, well, one must be
right and one must be wrong and this has to be dispelled.

(23:43):
That is wrong. That's not true.
What the apps are showing you, whether you're looking at Monash
or whether you're looking at FODMAP friendly.
And we're only going to talk about those two.
Those entries are telling you what that batch of food showed
for FODMAP content in lab testing.

(24:04):
The lab testing was accurate. Whatever that number is, it was
real, but it was real for what was tested.
Now, they didn't just test 1 grape, No one's just testing 1
grape, and no one's just testinga bunch of grapes from one
supermarket. What they do is they will go out
and they will buy several batches of grapes from several

(24:25):
different supermarkets. They'll bring them back.
All of this is combined, so it'sreally a mean.
But that said, for instance, tomatoes and grapes, this is
like a huge segue into what we're really getting to talk
about here. Anybody want to guess how many
varieties of grapes there are inthe world or how many varieties

(24:46):
of tomatoes there are in the world?
For each of those, it's over 10,010 thousand different kinds
of grapes, 10,000 different kinds of tomatoes.
So even if, let's say it's August, let's say right now
Monash is saying we're going to do a retest of grapes.
They're going to go out into their markets, they're going to

(25:08):
buy several different batches ofgrapes from several different
places. But guess what?
The only grapes that they're buying are the ones that are
available right now, this particular season that come
from, you know, certain farms that are selling to the certain
stores that they're getting the grapes from.
When you think about it logically, do you think that is
even possible, that that could be representative of 10,000

(25:31):
different kinds of grapes, all grown in different
microclimates, all harvested at different levels of ripeness,
all stored in different ways. How long have those grapes been
sitting on that shelf? No, the answer is no.
So the variability, the variability in raw produce and

(25:51):
vegetables and fruits in particular and grains is
expected to change, is expected to be different.
And so I, you know, my, my belief is that when Monash
developed the diet, they had no idea that the variability was
going to be what it ended up being and showing them.

(26:14):
And a, the biggest downside to both of the apps is they can
only show you one data set at a time.
And so they default to the most current.
That doesn't mean that you know,so let's say on September 1st,
the old green grape data point goes away and the new one comes

(26:37):
in. Doesn't mean that the old one
was wrong, doesn't mean that thenew one is better.
Again, they're just representingwhat was tested at a snapshot in
time. And it is literally impossible
for the grapes that you have at home to be the same as the ones
that were lab tested. So you know it.

(27:01):
The apps are meant to be used asguides.
They are not black and white. They are not absolutes.
Monash has said this themselves.But people look at that and they
go 46 grams of whatever of XYZ. They think that means it's black
and white. It's not so.
But before you go crazy and thensay, well, then all of this is

(27:24):
just silly and and doesn't make any sense.
I mean, these are stakes in the sand.
Whatever those current amounts are, they are a reputable,
accurate stake in the sand for you to use to begin to explore
the nature of your relationship to Fodmaps that, you know, we

(27:48):
have to start somewhere, right? So they're giving us a fantastic
guide, but you know, this is howespecially with fructans, I
think, you know, they've now expanded.
So we've always had fructans arestatistically the, the FODMAP
that gives people the most problems.
So you know, not only that, but unfortunately, since garlic and

(28:11):
onion contain fructans and garlic and onion are in so many
foods, you know, garlic and onion are a huge thing.
So you know, whether we're cooking, you know it like you
read a recipe and it's like it starts with sauteing and onion
or sauteing, you know, a garlic clove or you look at a
restaurant menu or you look at apackaged food, there's garlic

(28:32):
and onion everywhere, right? So people, garlic and onion is
like a really hot, they're hot button topics, right?
So we've always had separate challenges for garlic and for
onion, and some people tolerate 1 and not the other.
And just looking at that, you know, you say, well, wait a

(28:52):
minute, if I'm intolerant to fructans, why am I okay with a
little bit of garlic, but I'm not okay with like any onion
whatsoever? It took me about two years into
the diet. And this is me full studying the
diet. So my two years could be like
your four years, I don't know, five years.
It took me a solid 2 years before I got to the point where

(29:14):
I realized, you know what, it's actually more helpful to not try
to stress and figure out every single nuance on this diet to
the point where it makes sense. Because a lot of it doesn't make
sense in, in, you know, to like a non scientific brain, which

(29:37):
most of us, right, who are sitting home with IBS, we're not
lab scientists. So as soon as you can just
accept that and just sort of go,hey, I guess I'm lucky I can eat
a little garlic, but I can't eatonion.
Don't really know why, but that's the way it is.
But what I was getting at is there's always been the separate
challenges for garlic and onion,and then there's been a separate

(30:00):
challenge for fructans and grains and fructans and
vegetables. And so there were those 4
fructan challenges. And the reason was because
Monash did see that people couldsometimes tolerate fructans in
one way and not another. In their most recent update,
they've suggested that people test bread separately.

(30:24):
And I think that this was reallysmart.
So their idea was don't use wheat bread as a test for wheat
because sandwich breads just they vary like way too much.
So unless we really know specifically what bread they
were suggesting and you know, you're eating the same thing,
you know, we don't know. So they're saying, you know, for

(30:45):
wheat, use pure wheat, like use couscous, which by the way,
folks is not a grain. It's like little tiny pieces of
they're like little balls of wheat.
It's pretty much just wheat. So you could use couscous for a
wheat test. But then if you're a sandwich
person, if you're a toast person, if you want to know
whether you can have a slice of toast in the morning with your

(31:07):
eggs or whether you can have a sandwich, then use your favorite
wheat based sandwich bread as anadditional test.
That's going to give you a more accurate representation for you
personally whether wheat in general works, whether your
sandwich bread works. Maybe one does, one doesn't.

(31:27):
So, you know, breaking it down alittle bit, I think that of
their current, their most recentsuggestions, I've really
appreciated that. Yeah, because currently what are
the test foods for fructin grains?
I think it's I'm just looking atthe Monarch shop, but I believe.
Yeah. No, I have it right here for
grains. What's the other one?

(31:48):
Wheat couscous, puff pastry and wheat pasta.
Yeah, because before they had. They did have bread because it
was the. Same as the green serving on the
app. I don't know if you remember
that. It was like they were the same
serving, right? But it had it as right.
But yeah, I was happy to change that.
It's true because it varies so much.
Like what's you know, 1 wheat bread from the Baker versus a

(32:11):
slice of wheat bread from the grocery store.
Right. Or even just two brands found in
the grocery store. But let's talk about like you've
reached out to me and you said, let's talk about these new
updates for the reintroduction foods because there were a lot
of changes. And so here's the deal.
You go through the elimination phase and another thing, you

(32:34):
know, terms of like words, in the beginning I used the word
strict and I got rid of that word years ago, you know, and I
see, I still see this a lot on social media.
People are trying to do this themselves and they'll say, I
don't understand what's going on.
I started the diet myself. I've been so strict and I'm

(32:56):
still experiencing, you know, this, this or that.
So you know as the dietitian that following the low FODMAP
elimination phase strictly is not even appropriate for
everybody. So I, I've changed the word.
I now say structured. However it needs to be for you.

(33:17):
It needs to be structured. We need to be structured and
methodical. But strict may not be the key,
right? If you have a history of eating
disorders, if you have several other concurrent medical
conditions that require certain medication or other kinds of

(33:37):
restrictive diet overlays, you know, you're diabetic, you
there's so many things that can complicate just doing the
elimination diet itself. So you have to have a structured
approach, but strict may not be right for you.
And the other thing that people need to know is, you know, you
hear percentages bandied about, right?

(33:58):
You say, oh, you know, about 75%of people will feel better
following the low FODMAP diet. Well, first of all, that's if
you're undertaking it with a trained registered dietitian or
the equivalent in your country. And people do not understand
that. And I think the biggest hole
that we have in this whole process is with the GI's not

(34:24):
giving people that information, right?
Because well over 90% of what wehear is people say, I saw my GI,
I got a diagnosis. They want me to try the low fom
F diet. Where was the mention of the
dietitian? There wasn't one.
And now this person is out on their own and the diet is very
nuanced and it's very complex and dietitians are going to be

(34:48):
able to help you navigate it. Listen, it's right.
It's never a straight line like for anybody.
There are twists and turns because it is complicated.
But the most direct route to getting to a symptom free place
is working with a registered dietitian.
And I know people say they can'tafford 1.

(35:08):
And I'm telling you that if you engage with a dietitian from the
beginning, you are not only going to save money because
you're you're going to save money not buying foods that are
not appropriate for you, not buying supplements that are not
appropriate for you, not spending money on home
intolerance tests which are garbage.

(35:29):
You know, all those things. Plus, you're not only going to
get to a symptom free place morequickly and more economically,
but psychologically, you know, you dietitians, I mean, I think
you're the unsung rock stars. You guys are going to make sure
that people maintain or maybe finally obtain a healthy

(35:50):
relationship with food. And this is huge.
This is huge because we see people all the time who, like we
said, they don't even want to gointo the reintroduction phase
because they're too afraid and they think that's OK and it's
not OK. Or we find people doing the
reintroduction phase, but they're not really doing it
right for themselves. And so they're either getting no

(36:13):
positive outcomes and then they just want to give up or they're
getting results that don't make sense to them.
And they're not dietitians. They don't know how to make
heads or tails out of what they're seeing.
So, you know, working with a dietitian is not to be
underestimated. But I keep we need to get back
to the whole reintroduction thing.
So you know, you're, you're going through the elimination

(36:35):
phase and hopefully you're working with a dietitian and
hopefully you've gotten to a point, maybe it's about, you
know, a month into it and your symptoms have calmed your whole
body, your whole whole system iscalmed down to the point where
you can start doing some food challenges and start really

(36:55):
collecting that data that's going to tell you.
Can you have a scoop of ice cream every once in a while?
Can you have oatmeal every once in a while?
Or you know, whatever it is. So Monash is constantly a few
times a year, well several timesa year now.
I mean, I don't know if they're doing it strictly quarterly.
It feels like it's about quarterly.

(37:15):
They're updating foods on the app.
And so we're assuming that all of you have the Monash app.
You should. It's my opinion that you can't
follow the diet without it, whether you're working with a
dietitian or not. And so they will, there's a
little section on the app that says new foods that says
updates. And you can go right to that
section and see things that haveeither been retested or foods

(37:41):
that that have been added for the first time.
So the confusion comes when a food that was tested before is
tested again. And sometimes the FODMAP content
is wildly and widely different. Sometimes the current test is

(38:01):
showing higher FODMAP content and the sometimes like
blueberries, it's showing lower FODMAP content.
And then the most crazy making of call is when a food is tested
and a completely different FODMAP or group of Fodmaps is
showing in that food and the layperson at home is going what

(38:25):
the you know, especially when when the Fodmaps change.
I think one of the most a mate to me, one of the most
incredible things that I learnedand thankfully I learned it
really early on was is that coldstorage can actually, what's the

(38:48):
word encourage, encourage the development of fructans.
So you can have a food that did not have fructans before and it
can go into cold storage. And believe me, unless you're
growing your own produce or you're buying from the farmers
market, your food has been, yourproduce has been in cold storage
and these foods go into cold storage and it's actually like a

(39:09):
survival mechanism. I mean, the the food is trying
to preserve itself and fructans can develop where they weren't
before. And when I learned that, and
like I said, thankfully it was pretty early on, that really
helped me understand the elasticity and the variability

(39:30):
of Fodmaps. And just like I was saying
before, sometimes this is not going to make sense and you just
kind of have to go, OK, you know, these lab tests are real,
they're accurate. They're showing me something I
don't understand. It doesn't really make sense to
me. But you have to trust in the
science. So here's where I agree with

(39:52):
Monash. Where I agree with Monash is
they're saying, look, if you didchallenges before, we just made
our recent changes because they they went in and they actually
changed. Types of food, like they're no
longer telling people to use BLAP, right?

(40:12):
But they were saying, look, if you did challenges before and
you got a handle on what you were your body was responding
to, don't panic like that's thatwas real data.
Your body responded in a certainway that was real.
You don't have to second guess that.
However, let's say you tested a food and you did not pass the

(40:39):
tests and now the Fodmaps have determined to be different or
the levels of Fodmaps have determined to be different.
Time to revisit go for it, you know, do another challenge, even
if it's been months since or a year or more since you've done
challenges, maybe you're going to be able to add a food to your

(40:59):
diet. Now here's the part I'm just did
screenshot it. So I just want to get this in
front of me because there is a part where I I don't agree with
them, or rather I feel like theykind of cheat so.
Just with the in terms of the reintroductions changing, I had

(41:21):
a few clients that were like 1-2challenges in right when they
changed it in April. And for me, I have like, well in
my IBS program, we have online modules and I explained about
the FODMAP reintroduction. So I had to change everything in
there too, which is always fun when Manas changes the servings.
But yeah, I have one client who tested honey for fructose, which

(41:41):
now Manas Manas says also contains fructins, but she
didn't tolerate it well. She ended up getting a lot of
gas as one of her symptoms. So with her, we decided just go
ahead and retest it with the newfoods for fructose, which are
now, I believe, asparagus, mangoand orange juice.
But then I've had many clients who they've finished all their
challenges, they're feeling good, no issues, personalized

(42:04):
little bitomap diet. So for them we didn't end up
retesting because honestly the reintroduction is a lot of work.
It is. It has to be right time as well,
but I just wanted to add that example.
No, absolutely. But you know, so people want to
know, you know, so what's changed?
What's changed in the reintroduction?
So Monash has said that because some foods that were previously,

(42:28):
previously used for challenges have switched FODMAP groups or,
you know, ones have appeared like the fructose and fructan
that you just mentioned or the amounts have changed.
This is why they've made the changes.
OK, I agree with that. That's cool.
We're cool. Then the next thing they say is,
you know, these changes are due to things like, and then they

(42:49):
list things like the things I'vementioned to you, right?
Change differences in the variety of the particular crop,
the climate, the growing conditions, the microclimate,
the storage practices, all that stuff.
OK, I agree with that too. Then they jump and they then
they go, you know, the good newsis that the reintroduction phase

(43:09):
hasn't changed. So, you know, you can just go
ahead and use these new parameters and go on your merry
way. Well, to me, there's a huge gap
there because they're acknowledging that there's huge
variability in produce for all the reasons listed, but then

(43:30):
they don't point out that, well,what that means is that the food
that you, the person at home arechallenging with, that food's
not going to be the same as the food that they lab tested.
So that's a huge thing to sort of skip over.
And so again, I think you just have to say, OK, it's, I don't

(43:56):
want to use the word imperfect because that would to note that
it could be perfect or should beperfect.
And because there's so much variability in individual
microbiomes and by the way, our microbiomes change too.
It's not that mine is different than yours is that mine is also
different today than it will be next week than it will be 3

(44:17):
weeks from now. Like there's this variability
going everywhere. So I don't want to use the word
perfect and I don't want to use the word imperfect.
I think that it can help psychologically for the person
at home following the diet to say, all right, there's
variability all over the place. There's variability within me,
there's variability within thesefoods.

(44:38):
So but, but I'm trying to get somewhere right.
The goal is that I'm trying to get to a place where my symptoms
are. I have much more control over my
symptoms than I do now. So I'm just going to start.
I'm going to take the current information.
I'm going to start testing myself.
I'm going to be methodical. I'm going to be structured in

(45:00):
whatever way I'm doing it. I'm going to make notations of
this data that I'm collecting. And if I fail something, I'm not
going to panic. And I'm going to say to myself,
I'll try this again in three months.
You know, early, early seasoned tomatoes, they're different than
late season tomatoes or whateverit is that we're talking about,

(45:23):
right? And then the other thing that I
think is huge is that people, asmany times as I point this out,
people overlook the non food triggers people, you know, like
if you have an upset stomach right now and your tummy's
rumbling and you're bloating, like whatever it is your
symptoms are, people always like, what did I eat?

(45:45):
You know, they go on social media.
This is what I had for breakfast.
This is what I had for dinner last night.
What do you think I did wrong? Maybe you did nothing wrong in
terms of food. Maybe it's the fact that you
need a new mattress. Maybe it's the fact that your
air conditioner conked out, you were in 98° wither with 98°
humidity, and you couldn't sleep.

(46:06):
And then, you know, one of my favorite things to point out
about stress, I mean, you mentioned, you know, the gut
brain axis, it's real people andit's a two way St.
And the thing about stress is that there is such a thing as
positive stress and people always like like, what do you
mean? And I go, OK, if you just lost
your job, that's really stressful.

(46:28):
And if you're getting married this weekend, that's really
stressful. Like one of them is really
positive and one of them is negative.
They're both stress. Stress doesn't just have to be
bad. Stress isn't just, you know,
like your car just broke down or, you know, you broke your
leg. It could be, you know, we're
moving and you're, like, really excited about this new part of

(46:52):
your life that's about to happen.
But you know what? It's incredibly stressful.
Yeah, I think to that point it'smore even just how you perceive
the stress, like someone can be stressed about giving a
presentation, but if you flip that and you say I'm, you know,
I'm going to use this for excitement and to energize
myself that. Scare my message, right?

(47:13):
Than being in anxiety. So stress is a whole nother
thing. For those interested in that,
the book Upside of Stress by Kelly Mcgonagall is excellent
and she talks about how we respond to different stressors
differently and how it actually impacts our body.
And not all stress is bad stresslike you said and some stresses.
I will definitely check that out.
I hadn't heard of that. Yeah.
And you know, I just want to go back to what you were saying

(47:35):
about honey. You know, the other thing about
the app that I find so helpful. And again, this might be
frustrating for people, but if you look up honey right now on
the Monash app, there are three entries and the low FODMAP
amounts range from 1g to 3 gramsto 5g.
So there's one kind of honey that is five times different

(47:59):
than the honey on the other sideof the spectrum.
So again, you that might seem crazy, right?
You're like, well, I just want, I just want to know about
Honeywell. The lab tests are telling us
that honey can be as variable asgrapes or whatever.
So just start. I mean, I think that, you know,

(48:23):
knowing that there's light at the end of the tunnel.
And I think that that, you know,if social media can help in one
way, I think it's with the pot. Actually on Reddit two weeks ago
or three weeks ago, it was a Monday morning and I'd had a
great weekend. I had had the opportunity to eat
a whole bunch of really great food and I had my fadzim.
I knew I was going to be eating out.

(48:45):
And I made a post and I had pictures.
And it's like, here's some of the stuff I ate this weekend.
And I did really well. And, you know, I used Fadzim to
help me, and someone said it gotlike 40.
There was so much engagement. People were like, so excited
about talking about successes. And someone said, Oh my God, we

(49:06):
should do this every week. And so now every Monday, I've
been starting out in the Reddit FODMAP community by posting a
positivity post. And I think that that is just as
important to see, you know, as asking the questions about how
badly did Onion kill you, right?Yeah.

(49:29):
You know there are successes, and knowing that there's light
at the end of the tunnel, that you can see people who have
figured out a way to navigate this is really powerful.
And the stories are there. Definitely, yeah.
And to all that like because as you, as we've talked about, like
the low FODMAP diet, there's so much variability, nuance, I'm

(49:50):
sure a lot of people listening are like, what the heck?
Like it seems like it's more work than it's and then it's
worth. But to that I always just say
like IBS in itself is complex and what's contributing to your
visceral or hypersensitivity could be a lot of things.
Your microbiome, your intestinalbarrier health, your nervous
system health, even past trauma,all of these things.

(50:10):
That's why low FODMAP diet should just be one tool in the
toolkit and you need to work on,you know, supporting your mental
health, supporting the gut brainconnection, still making sure
you're getting a nutrient, nutrient dense diet because you
can be eating potatoes and carrots all day, but you may be
lacking in nutrients, even if it's low fiber.
But your gut is a complex set oforgans that needs nutrition to

(50:35):
thrive and work its best. There's so many other parts of
that picture and I think people can see that in a positive way
to remember like, oh, there's somany other things I can work on
and control. And it's not just about
stressing about the low FODMAP diet and getting everything
perfect and making sure, you know, I know exactly my food
triggers because there's so manyother things that can contribute
that you can work on and that will make such an impact on your

(50:58):
IBS symptoms too. I just started, this is my third
round in, I don't know, five year, no, how long has thought
sound been around? I'm trying to remember.
I mean, excuse me, NERVA. I just started.
I just started doing NERVA again.
So you know, Nerva is a gut, gutdirected hypnotherapy app.

(51:19):
There are many ways that people at home can access gut directed
hypnotherapy. I happened to find NERVA to be
really convenient and really helpful.
And what happened was they had come to us when they were new.
And just so people know, gut directed hypnotherapy is
clinically proven to be as effective as the diet, as

(51:40):
effective, not along with the diet, but as effective,
effective on its own. And so one of the things I love
about a program like NERVA is that no matter what you're
doing, right, like whether you're working with a
gastroenterology, I mean a dietitian or not, you can add
gut directed hypnotherapy to whatever you're doing because
there's no contraindication. So why not?

(52:02):
And so when they came to us whenthe product was new, I thought,
you know what, I should do the six week course because I want
to be able to know what I'm talking about as I bring it to
our community. And I'm very type A, I'm not
someone who like ever sits still.
And the idea of like, like, you know, almost like meditating or

(52:23):
you know, for 15 minutes I was just like, I'm not going to be
able to do this. And then after like 2 sessions,
I was so hooked. It's so relaxing, it's so
fantastic. So I did it for the six weeks
way back when. I think it's fantastic and I've
used it as maintenance every nowand then.
And right now, between now and the end of November, I've got a

(52:45):
lot going on in my life. I mean, there's just a lot and
some of it's positive stress, but it's stress.
And so just three days ago I said to myself, you know what,
I'm going to go back in, I'm going to go back in and start
doing NERVA again. And so like you said, your
toolbox, so nervous in my toolbox, Fodzyme's in my
toolbox. My knowledge of what I've gained

(53:08):
over the years is in my toolbox.So for instance, I was somewhere
two weeks ago and there was thisamazing, you know, little town
ice cream stand. Like they were known for their
ice cream, really good ice cream.
And so I always have my Lactaid with me.
You know, I have FAZA, I'm with me all the time.

(53:28):
But if it's just dairy, I've gotmy Lactaid and you know, I maybe
eat ice cream like 4 * a year. Like, I don't eat a lot of ice
cream because I probably would eat it every day and then I
would, I'd be 500 lbs. But the point is that I knew I
could have some because I had done the work.
I understood my relationship to lactose.

(53:50):
I knew that for me having a nicebig fat cup with sprinkles on
it, you know, along with my Lactaid was going to be fine.
You know, knowing and you know, you could say no, but you're
using the Lactaid. And so it's not really like your
tolerance or intolerance. But you know, we talked about
the psychological aspect. I had a woman come to me years

(54:11):
ago and she said, and it was about ice cream and she said,
you know, my daughter's school, it's a grade elementary level
age child. They were having an ice cream
social and she said knowing thatshe, the adult, the mom who had
IBS, knowing that she could go and she could partake and she

(54:33):
could have ice cream with all the kids and with all the other
parents and not look like the odd woman out, right?
Psychologically for her, that was huge.
It was normalizing. And This is why it is so
important for us, for all of youto move beyond that, that
stricter, more restrictive elimination phase.

(54:56):
Because not only do you need thenutrition, the broadness of the
nutrition that you're going to bring into your diet, but
psychologically this is going tohelp you.
You're going to be able to live your life better.
Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's such an impact
that having social network and social connections, going out
and engaging in different life experiences impacts our mental

(55:18):
health and our physical health and our well-being.
So we we don't want to get into the point with IBS where we're
isolating ourselves from all those experiences because in
turn, it can actually make things worse by then worsening
our from mental health and senseof hope.
So yeah, to that point, like just being able to improve our
quality of life also has so many, you know, cascading

(55:39):
benefits too. Yeah, it's just been a great,
lots of lots of good points today day, day.
What's the biggest myth you would say when it comes to
following the low FODMAP diet that you feel like you're you're
always working to dispel or maybe change people's opinions
on whether it's on FODMAP every day or, you know, engaging in

(56:01):
the online groups that you're a part of, what would you say?
Think that in people's frustration, they often and
because there's so much variability within the diet and
so much nuance, some people are just like this is BS like
they're just like. And I think that I want people

(56:22):
to know that there is hope. I want people to know that there
is light at the end of the tunnel.
Whatever you are experiencing right now, whether you're an
IBSD person, an IBSD, you have mixed whether bloating, like for
me, my painful bloating, I mean,that was my major thing.
Whether it's stress and anxiety around food, like wherever it is

(56:44):
that you're coming from right now, I want you to know that you
can get better, that you can move beyond where you are right
now and the you need an accuratediagnosis, self diagnosis.
You're, you're if, if so many people are still self diagnosing
and that means you're starting on an incorrect footing and
everything from there on is, is throw it out.

(57:07):
So you have to get an accurate diagnosis and whatever it is
that you have that you're experiencing with a registered
dietitian, this is so huge. You can figure it out.
They will help you figure it out.
You can be pain free, you can besymptom free or largely.
And I just want people to know that they can get there that

(57:27):
they can. And you know, resources like
yours and us at FODMAP everyday.That's why we're we're there for
you. So don't I know how demoralizing
it can feel when you feel like every single thing you put in
your mouth is against you. And just know you're not alone
and there are resources to help.Absolutely.

(57:49):
I know. Yep, I've had many clients who
have gotten better. I don't, I'm not sure if you
guys share like stories on your website, but I've got a lot of
client testimonials and stories that are proof that you can get
better. It's just, you know.
Having we should put something together for sure.
Yeah, yeah. I think it would be very
inspiring for people again looking at, you know, more of
the positive in the winds. So with all that, do you have

(58:11):
any anything else to add or do you think we?
No, I think you know, just just.Today.
It can we're here to help you and you can get better.
Those that those are the big, the big messages and and don't
listen, Monash is going to make changes again after this.
I in fact, I promise you there are going to be changes.

(58:33):
So, you know, the whole thing isjust to stay flexible and move
forward and understand that yourgut is unique, your relationship
to Fodmaps is unique. And the the key is figuring out
what works for you. Yeah.
Awesome. Thank you.

(58:54):
Yeah. If anyone is interested, you can
go back on episode 2 where we talk about visceral
hypersensitivity and then episode 5 on anxiety and IBS,
which was a good discussion. So it's here on the podcast and
also on YouTube and on FODMAP everyday.
You have it on YouTube as well and then we've got a couple
articles there. And then be sure to check out
FODMAP Everyday if you're not not yet subscribed to their

(59:17):
e-mail newsletter. I think you guys send out emails
maybe 2-3 times a week about. On the home page.
And then, you know, we do have an article that discusses when a
FODMAP lab testing differs, and it's one of our most popular
articles. So if you want to get sort of
even deeper into it, that article can help you out.

(59:37):
Awesome. OK, I will link the website and
I'll link that article in the show notes.
Great. Well, well, thank you so much.
Today. Thank you.
Great conversation for anyone listening.
If you have any comments, questions, you can leave it in
the in the show notes and we will definitely look at those as
well. All right.
Bye. That's a wrap for today's

(59:59):
episode. Thank you so much for listening
and being a part of our community here.
If the Gut Fit Nutrition podcastis giving you value, helped your
digestion and fitness, made you rethink how you approach your
gut health, consider leaving a review on Apple, Spotify, or
wherever you're getting your podcasts.
If you have questions for my Listener Q&A episodes, you can
submit them as a comment on thisepisode or send me an e-mail at

(01:00:22):
lee@leemorado.com. For more digestible IBS gut
health and fitness tips, be sureto follow me on Instagram at Lee
Morado under score Rd. and to apply for coaching, shop the
resource suite or grab a freebie, visit
gutfitnutrition.com. Thanks for tuning in.
We'll be in touch soon.

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20: Why Monash Serving Sizes Change — And How to Confidently Follow the Low FODMAP Diet With Dede Wilson

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}20: Why Monash Serving Sizes Change — And How to Confidently Follow the Low FODMAP Diet With Dede Wilson