Fertility challenges can be daunting, particularly when pursuing treatments like in vitro fertilization (IVF).
While IVF is a cornerstone of assisted reproductive technology, its success rates are not guaranteed, often due to physiological barriers.
Complementary medical interventions, including acupuncture, customized herbal medicine, and low-level light therapy (LLLT), can enhance IVF outcomes by improving oocyte (egg), endometrial, and sperm quality.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Deep Dive.
Today, we're tackling a topicthat's really important for a
lot of people, in vitrofertilization or IVF.
It's an amazing medical option,you know, offering a path to
parenthood, but the journeyWell, it isn't always
straightforward.
SPEAKER_01 (00:14):
Absolutely.
While IVF is a huge stepforward, success isn't
guaranteed.
It really depends on a whole mixof biological factors.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Exactly.
So for this deep dive, we'velooked at information focusing
on the Berkley Center forReproductive Wellness.
Our goal is to explore somecomplementary medical approaches
that, based on their experience,seem to potentially help improve
IVF outcomes.
SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
Yeah, and it's important to say we're looking
at potential supportivetherapies here, things designed
to work alongside the standardIVF protocols.
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Right.
Not replacements.
So the Berkley Center's workreally highlights three main
areas.
Acupuncture, customized herbalmedicine, and also low-level
light therapy, or LLLT.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
And these are considered relevant to IVF
because, well, the sources welooked at point to several
physiological things that canget in the way of success.
We're talking about things likethe quality of the eggs, the
oocytes.
SPEAKER_00 (01:06):
Okay.
How receptive the uterus is,spone quality, of course,
hormonal balance, and even justoverall systemic stress.
Okay,
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
let's maybe break down why IVF can sometimes be
challenging to begin with.
Most people know it involvesseveral stages, right?
Stimulating the ovaries,retrieving the eggs,
fertilization in the lab, andthen transferring the embryo.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
And at every one of those steps, different
biological factors really comeinto play.
Plus, we know success rates varyquite a bit.
Age is often a big factor there.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Right.
The source material really digsinto some key reasons why an IVF
cycle might not results in apregnancy.
Let's start with egg quality.
What's the main thing tounderstand there?
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Well, a big one is age.
As women get older, especiallysay past their mid-30s, the
number of eggs generally goesdown and the quality of the ones
that are left can decline too.
And that can affect whether theembryo implants properly and
develops as it should.
SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
That makes sense.
And then there's the uterinelining, the endometrium.
Why is that so critical?
You can think of the endometriumlike the soil for a seed.
For an embryo to really takeroot and grow, the lining needs
to be thick enough, usuallysomewhere between 7 and 14
millimeters.
And it needs to be receptive,sort of ready to welcome the
embryo.
If it isn't, implantation mightnot happen.
SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
Got it.
And it's not just about the eggsor the uterus, is it?
Sperm quality is a big piece ofthe puzzle too.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Oh, absolutely.
Things like the sperm count, howwell they move, that's motility
and their shape, morphology.
They're all crucial forfertilization and for creating a
healthy embryo.
So yeah, issues with sperm candefinitely impact the outcome.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
The sources also mentioned hormonal balance.
How can like imbalances messthings up?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Well, the whole reproductive process relies on
this really delicate dance ofhormones.
If things are out of balance, itcan interfere with, well, pretty
much everything from gettinghealthy eggs to develop in the
first place right through topreparing the uterus for the
embryo.
So keeping hormones stable isreally key.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Like too much or too little estrogen at the wrong
time.
SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
Exactly.
Or progesterone.
Timing and levels are critical.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
And the last point was stress, something we all
deal with.
How does that connect to IVFsuccess?
SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
When we're under chronic stress, our bodies often
pump out more cortisol.
And the source material suggeststhis high cortisol can
negatively affect differentparts of our reproductive
system.
It might make IVF lesseffective.
The thinking is it can interferewith hormones, signals, maybe
even blood flow to thereproductive organs.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
OK.
So given all these potentialhurdles, it brings us back to
the main question.
How could these complementaryapproaches, acupuncture, herbs,
LLLT, actually help?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
Well, the idea based on the experience at the Berkley
Center is that these therapiesmight be able to target some of
those underlying factors we'vejust talked about in a way that
sort of complements theconventional IVF treatment.
SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
Let's start with acupuncture then.
For people who aren't familiar,it involves inserting really
thin needles at specific points.
How could that possibly improveIVF outcomes?
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
So the basic idea is stimulating these specific
points triggers physiologicalresponses in the body.
For IVF, the source highlights afew potential benefits.
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
Such as?
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
One main one is potentially improving blood flow
perfusion to the ovaries and theuterus.
Better circulation means moreoxygen, nutrients, hormones
getting to where they need togo, which is obviously critical
for developing healthy eggs andalso for building up that
receptive uterine lining.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
And there's evidence for that?
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Interestingly, yes.
The source mentions Dopplerultrasound studies have actually
shown this increased blood flowafter acupuncture.
So it's something measurable.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Okay, that's tangible.
What else might acupuncture do?
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
It's also thought to help regulate hormones, it might
influence what's called thehypothalamic pituitary ovarian
axis.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
That sounds complicated.
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Yeah, it's basically the body's command center for
reproductive hormones.
By helping to balance thosehormone levels, acupuncture
could contribute to more regularovulation and maybe create a
better environment in the uterusfor the embryo.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
And we mentioned stress earlier.
Can acupuncture help with thestress of IVF?
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
That's another potential benefit.
Acupuncture seems to stimulatethe release of endorphins, those
natural mood-boosting chemicals.
And that process can help lowercortisol, the stress hormone,
and just promote relaxation.
Which, you know, given howstressful IVF can be, it could
be really valuable.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
The source mentioned a specific study, a randomized
controlled trial from 2002.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
Right.
That study looked at 160 peopledoing IVF.
They tested giving acupunctureright around the embryo transfer
before and after.
And the results were prettystriking.
The clinical pregnancy rate was42.5% in the acupuncture group
versus just 26.3% in the groupthat didn't get it.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
Wow, that's a big difference.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
It was statistically significant too.
The source notes a p-value lessthan 0.05, which generally means
it's unlikely the result wasjust random chance.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
That is compelling.
And timing seems important.
What does the Berkley Centerusually recommend for timing
acupuncture with IVF?
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Their advice is usually to start acupuncture
maybe two to three months beforethe IVF cycle actually begins.
begins.
Then they suggest weeklysessions while the ovaries are
being stimulated and thentreatments on the day of the
transfer itself, both before andright after.
SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
OK, let's shift gears to customized herbal
medicine.
Customized sounds very tailored.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
Exactly.
It's not a one size fits allapproach.
These herbal formulas arespecifically created for each
person.
It's based on a really thoroughassessment, their individual
constitution, medical history,any specific imbalances they
might have, according totraditional diagnostics.
And
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
how might these specific formulas help women's
fertility?
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
Well, for women, the goal is often to help regulate
hormones, support healthyovulation, and improve the
thickness and quality of theendometrial lining, that
receptivity factor again.
The source even mentions theymight help manage conditions
like PCOS or endometriosis,which can definitely make
fertility more challenging.
SPEAKER_00 (07:00):
What about for men?
Can herbs play a role inimproving sperm?
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
Yes, they can.
Certain herbal formulas are usedto try and improve sperm count,
motility, how well they swim,and their shape or morphology.
There's research suggesting thatherbal treatment over, say,
about three months might evenhelp reduce sperm DNA
fragmentation, which is good forfertilization.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
And systemic effects, too.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
Yeah, the herbs might also have broader benefits
that contribute to the overallvitality of the sperm.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
The source brought up a 2015 systematic review.
What did that find about herbsand IVF?
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Right, that review looked at 40 different studies.
The overall analysis suggestedthat when herbal medicine was
used with IVF, the odds ofgetting pregnant were about 1.5
to 2 times higher compared tojust IVF alone.
SPEAKER_00 (07:45):
Another encouraging finding.
How does the Berkley Centerhandle the herbal medicine part?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
They really emphasize working with
board-certified herbalists whoknow how to create these
personalized formulas, and theyusually recommend treatment for
about three to six months.
It takes time for the herbs tohave their intended effect.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
All right, third intervention.
Low-level light therapy, LLLT.
This sounds quite different.
What's the basic idea?
SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
Yeah, it is different.
LLT uses specific wavelengths oflight, and the idea is to
stimulate the mitochondriainside our cells.
SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
The powerhouses of the cell.
SPEAKER_01 (08:18):
Exactly.
Mitochondria produce the cell'senergy, ATP.
So this light stimulation isthought to kind of boost their
function, ramp up energyproduction, like jump-starting a
tiny battery.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
Okay, how does boosting cell energy help with
fertility?
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Well, for eggs and sperm, the thought is that
increased ATP and reducedoxidative stress could improve
their quality and viability.
The Source mentions lab studies,in vitro studies, showing better
mitochondrial activity inreproductive cells after LLLT,
which could potentially helpfight some of that age-related
decline we talked about.
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
Does it help the uterine lining too?
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
Potentially, yes.
LLLT is thought to promoteangiogenesis.
That's the formation of newblood vessels.
It might also help repair andregenerate cells in the
endometrium.
So the end result could be athicker, healthier, more
receptive lining, again boostingthe chances for implantation.
SPEAKER_00 (09:08):
There was a study mentioned about LLLT in women
with low AMH.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yes, a 2017 study.
It involved 188 women with lowanti-Mullerian hormone levels,
which often indicates lowerovarian reserve.
After getting LLLT, the studyreported a 56% pregnancy rate
and a 38% live birth rate inthat group.
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
Those are pretty notable results, especially for
that group.
And how is LLLT done?
Is it invasive?
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
No, it's not invasive.
It's usually administered aboutthree times a week.
The Berkeley Center mentionsthey use FDA-cleared Saluma
devices, so they're usingestablished technology.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
We keep coming back to the Berkeley Center for
Reproductive Wellness.
They seem to have been doingthis for a while.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
They really have.
They're based in Midtown EastManhattan, and they were
actually the first complementaryreproductive medicine center in
the U.S.
Mike Berkeley founded it back in1998.
Wow,
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
1998.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
so that's over 27 years of specializing
specifically in this kind ofintegrative fertility And
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
Mike Berkley himself, he's quite well known
in this field.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
He is.
He's a licensed acupuncturist,board-certified in oriental
reproductive medicine, andreally considered one of the
pioneers in the U.S.
focusing just on reproductivehealth with these methods.
He has a strong reputation.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
And it sounds like working with conventional
doctors is important to theirapproach.
SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
Yes, definitely.
They're known for personalizedcare and building relationships
with many top reproductiveendocrinologists, the REs in New
York City.
They work with doctors andclinics at places like RMA, NYU,
Generation Next, Fernie, NewHope, Cornell, lots of the big
names.
It points to a really integratedmodel.
MARK
SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
MIRCHANDANI, And what about patient experiences?
What does the feedback looklike?
LESLIE
SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
KENDRICK, MD, Generally, it seems very
positive.
You see a lot of reports frompatients who finally got
pregnant after previous IVFcycles hadn't worked.
Reviews often mention MikeBerkley's knowledge, how
attentive the care is, thesupportive feeling at the
center.
They've got high ratings onYelp, good testimonials on
ZocDoc, Google.
MARK
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
MIRCHANDANI, Any specific examples The
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
source mentions one case of a successful transfer
after six previous failures andanother patient who really
valued the stress relief andholistic support even into her
second trimester.
SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
That's great to hear.
And they seem to make itaccessible, too.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Yeah, they offer flexible scheduling and they
even do home visits andtelehealth, which must be a huge
help when you're going throughthe demands of fertility
treatment.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Now, the source also gave us some hard data on IVF
success rates, the age and theimpact of PGTA, that genetic
testing.
Let's get into
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
that.
Right.
So the data, this is from SARS.
in HFEA around 2020, 2021.
It clearly shows that trend.
As women using their own eggsget older, the live birth rates
per embryo transfer tend to godown if you're not doing PGTA.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
Can you give us a rough idea of those numbers?
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Sure.
So for ages 35 to 37, the livebirth rate per transfer is maybe
30% to 38%.
Okay.
Then it drops for ages 38 to 40down to maybe 17% to 25%.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Quite a drop.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Yeah.
Then 41 to 42, it's lower still,like 10% to 13%.
And by ages 43 to 45, it'ssignificantly lower, maybe 4% to
6% per transfer without PGTA.
And the miscarriage risks,unfortunately, go up with age,
too.
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
So that's where PGTA, the preimplantation
genetic testing for aneuploidy,comes in.
Explain that again briefly.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
Right.
PGTA is basically screening theembryos before transfer.
It checks for the wrong numberof chromosomes that's
aneuploidy.
By picking embryos that have theright number, the euploid ones,
the aim is to boost the chanceof implantation and cut data.
down the miscarriage risk.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
And does the data show it makes a big difference,
especially for older women?
SPEAKER_01 (12:38):
Yes, it really seems to.
For that 35-37 group, using PGTAto choose a upload embryo can
push the live birth rate pertransfer up to maybe 40-50% and
lower miscarriage risk.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
That's significant.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
And the benefit gets even clearer as women get older
because the chance of havingchromosomally abnormal embryos
naturally increases quite a lot.
The source estimates it's maybe50-70% by age 40 and could be
80-90% by age 45.
So for that 43-45 group, findingand transferring a euploid
embryo could potentially givelive birth rates of, say, 25-35%
(13:11):
per transfer.
Much better odds.
SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
So PGTA definitely improves the odds for that
specific transfer, especiallywhen aneuploidy risk is higher
due to age.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Exactly.
But there's an important pointthe source makes.
While PGTA improves per transfersuccess rate, it doesn't
necessarily increase the overallchance of having a baby across
multiple cycles because thetesting itself might mean you
find fewer embryos that aresuitable for transfer overall.
SPEAKER_00 (13:37):
Ah, okay.
That's a critical distinction,fewer shots on goal potentially,
but each shot is maybe morelikely to score.
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Sort of, yeah.
That's a decent analogy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
So pulling it all together, how does the Berkley
Center suggest actuallyintegrating all this, the
acupuncture, the herbs, the LLLTwith the conventional IVF?
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
Well, based on their experience, they outline a few
key steps.
First, choose qualifiedpractitioners.
Their team are licensed pros,and crucially, they coordinate
with the patients' Okay,
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
collaboration is key.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
Yes.
Second, start early.
Ideally, begin thesecomplementary therapies about
three months before the IVFcycle kicks off.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Why three months?
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
It's thought that's roughly how long eggs and sperm
take to mature.
So starting early gives time topotentially optimize their
quality and the uterineenvironment, too.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
Makes sense.
Consistency matters, too, Iimagine.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
Absolutely.
They advise sticking to aregular schedule, typically
twice-weekly acupuncture, takingthe prescribed herbs
consistently, doing the LLLTsessions.
And they also mentioned that ifpregnancy occurs, they often
continue modified acupunctureweekly up to about week 13 to
support the early stages.
SPEAKER_00 (14:43):
And what about managing the stress component we
talked about?
SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
They highlight acupuncture's potential there,
specifically its ability to helpreduce anxiety and emotional
stress.
That can be a huge supportduring such a demanding process.
Coordinated care, just ensuringeverything works together
seamlessly with the patient'smain IVF plan.
Offering things like home visitsand telehealth helps make that
integration easier.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
So summing up, it sounds like adding these
complementary approaches couldoffer real hope, maybe improve
chances, particularly for peoplein that, say, 35 to 45 age
bracket where IVF success ratestend to dip.
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
That seems to be the key takeaway.
Using acupuncture, tailoredherbs, LLLT, the goal is to
directly address some of thosecritical factors, egg quality,
sperm health, uterinereceptivity, that can really
hinder IVF success.
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
And the Berkley Center for Reproductive Wellness
clearly positions itself as avery experienced place for this
kind of integrated approach.
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Yeah, definitely.
With over, what, 27 years doingthis and that focus on
personalized, evidence-informedcare, they offer a pretty
comprehensive way to supportpeople trying to build their
families.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
So if you listening are interested in learning more
about the Berkeley Center, theirmethods, you can reach them at
212-685-0985 or check out theirwebsite.
It's www.berkeleycenter.com.
It sounds like they really workon individual plans to help
optimize IVF outcomes.
You
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
know, this whole discussion really highlights the
potential of looking at thingsmore holistically, proactively
addressing differentphysiological factors,
integrating various therapies.
It makes you think, doesn't it,about how combining the
strengths of conventionalmedicine and these complementary
approaches might really shiftthe landscape for fertility
treatment in the future,empowering people more on their
journey.
Welcome to the Deep Dive.
Today, we're tackling a topicthat's really important for a
lot of people, in vitrofertilization or IVF.
It's an amazing medical option,you know, offering a path to
parenthood, but the journeyWell, it isn't always
straightforward.
SPEAKER_01 (00:14):
Absolutely.
While IVF is a huge stepforward, success isn't
guaranteed.
It really depends on a whole mixof biological factors.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Exactly.
So for this deep dive, we'velooked at information focusing
on the Berkley Center forReproductive Wellness.
Our goal is to explore somecomplementary medical approaches
that, based on their experience,seem to potentially help improve
IVF outcomes.
SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
Yeah, and it's important to say we're looking
at potential supportivetherapies here, things designed
to work alongside the standardIVF protocols.
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Right.
Not replacements.
So the Berkley Center's workreally highlights three main
areas.
Acupuncture, customized herbalmedicine, and also low-level
light therapy, or LLLT.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
And these are considered relevant to IVF
because, well, the sources welooked at point to several
physiological things that canget in the way of success.
We're talking about things likethe quality of the eggs, the
oocytes.
SPEAKER_00 (01:06):
Okay.
How receptive the uterus is,spone quality, of course,
hormonal balance, and even justoverall systemic stress.
Okay,
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
let's maybe break down why IVF can sometimes be
challenging to begin with.
Most people know it involvesseveral stages, right?
Stimulating the ovaries,retrieving the eggs,
fertilization in the lab, andthen transferring the embryo.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
And at every one of those steps, different
biological factors really comeinto play.
Plus, we know success rates varyquite a bit.
Age is often a big factor there.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Right.
The source material really digsinto some key reasons why an IVF
cycle might not results in apregnancy.
Let's start with egg quality.
What's the main thing tounderstand there?
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Well, a big one is age.
As women get older, especiallysay past their mid-30s, the
number of eggs generally goesdown and the quality of the ones
that are left can decline too.
And that can affect whether theembryo implants properly and
develops as it should.
SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
That makes sense.
And then there's the uterinelining, the endometrium.
Why is that so critical?
You can think of the endometriumlike the soil for a seed.
For an embryo to really takeroot and grow, the lining needs
to be thick enough, usuallysomewhere between 7 and 14
millimeters.
And it needs to be receptive,sort of ready to welcome the
embryo.
If it isn't, implantation mightnot happen.
SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
Got it.
And it's not just about the eggsor the uterus, is it?
Sperm quality is a big piece ofthe puzzle too.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Oh, absolutely.
Things like the sperm count, howwell they move, that's motility
and their shape, morphology.
They're all crucial forfertilization and for creating a
healthy embryo.
So yeah, issues with sperm candefinitely impact the outcome.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
The sources also mentioned hormonal balance.
How can like imbalances messthings up?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Well, the whole reproductive process relies on
this really delicate dance ofhormones.
If things are out of balance, itcan interfere with, well, pretty
much everything from gettinghealthy eggs to develop in the
first place right through topreparing the uterus for the
embryo.
So keeping hormones stable isreally key.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Like too much or too little estrogen at the wrong
time.
SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
Exactly.
Or progesterone.
Timing and levels are critical.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
And the last point was stress, something we all
deal with.
How does that connect to IVFsuccess?
SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
When we're under chronic stress, our bodies often
pump out more cortisol.
And the source material suggeststhis high cortisol can
negatively affect differentparts of our reproductive
system.
It might make IVF lesseffective.
The thinking is it can interferewith hormones, signals, maybe
even blood flow to thereproductive organs.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
OK.
So given all these potentialhurdles, it brings us back to
the main question.
How could these complementaryapproaches, acupuncture, herbs,
LLLT, actually help?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
Well, the idea based on the experience at the Berkley
Center is that these therapiesmight be able to target some of
those underlying factors we'vejust talked about in a way that
sort of complements theconventional IVF treatment.
SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
Let's start with acupuncture then.
For people who aren't familiar,it involves inserting really
thin needles at specific points.
How could that possibly improveIVF outcomes?
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
So the basic idea is stimulating these specific
points triggers physiologicalresponses in the body.
For IVF, the source highlights afew potential benefits.
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
Such as?
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
One main one is potentially improving blood flow
perfusion to the ovaries and theuterus.
Better circulation means moreoxygen, nutrients, hormones
getting to where they need togo, which is obviously critical
for developing healthy eggs andalso for building up that
receptive uterine lining.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
And there's evidence for that?
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Interestingly, yes.
The source mentions Dopplerultrasound studies have actually
shown this increased blood flowafter acupuncture.
So it's something measurable.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Okay, that's tangible.
What else might acupuncture do?
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
It's also thought to help regulate hormones, it might
influence what's called thehypothalamic pituitary ovarian
axis.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
That sounds complicated.
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Yeah, it's basically the body's command center for
reproductive hormones.
By helping to balance thosehormone levels, acupuncture
could contribute to more regularovulation and maybe create a
better environment in the uterusfor the embryo.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
And we mentioned stress earlier.
Can acupuncture help with thestress of IVF?
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
That's another potential benefit.
Acupuncture seems to stimulatethe release of endorphins, those
natural mood-boosting chemicals.
And that process can help lowercortisol, the stress hormone,
and just promote relaxation.
Which, you know, given howstressful IVF can be, it could
be really valuable.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
The source mentioned a specific study, a randomized
controlled trial from 2002.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
Right.
That study looked at 160 peopledoing IVF.
They tested giving acupunctureright around the embryo transfer
before and after.
And the results were prettystriking.
The clinical pregnancy rate was42.5% in the acupuncture group
versus just 26.3% in the groupthat didn't get it.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
Wow, that's a big difference.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
It was statistically significant too.
The source notes a p-value lessthan 0.05, which generally means
it's unlikely the result wasjust random chance.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
That is compelling.
And timing seems important.
What does the Berkley Centerusually recommend for timing
acupuncture with IVF?
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Their advice is usually to start acupuncture
maybe two to three months beforethe IVF cycle actually begins.
begins.
Then they suggest weeklysessions while the ovaries are
being stimulated and thentreatments on the day of the
transfer itself, both before andright after.
SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
OK, let's shift gears to customized herbal
medicine.
Customized sounds very tailored.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
Exactly.
It's not a one size fits allapproach.
These herbal formulas arespecifically created for each
person.
It's based on a really thoroughassessment, their individual
constitution, medical history,any specific imbalances they
might have, according totraditional diagnostics.
And
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
how might these specific formulas help women's
fertility?
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
Well, for women, the goal is often to help regulate
hormones, support healthyovulation, and improve the
thickness and quality of theendometrial lining, that
receptivity factor again.
The source even mentions theymight help manage conditions
like PCOS or endometriosis,which can definitely make
fertility more challenging.
SPEAKER_00 (07:00):
What about for men?
Can herbs play a role inimproving sperm?
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
Yes, they can.
Certain herbal formulas are usedto try and improve sperm count,
motility, how well they swim,and their shape or morphology.
There's research suggesting thatherbal treatment over, say,
about three months might evenhelp reduce sperm DNA
fragmentation, which is good forfertilization.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
And systemic effects, too.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
Yeah, the herbs might also have broader benefits
that contribute to the overallvitality of the sperm.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
The source brought up a 2015 systematic review.
What did that find about herbsand IVF?
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Right, that review looked at 40 different studies.
The overall analysis suggestedthat when herbal medicine was
used with IVF, the odds ofgetting pregnant were about 1.5
to 2 times higher compared tojust IVF alone.
SPEAKER_00 (07:45):
Another encouraging finding.
How does the Berkley Centerhandle the herbal medicine part?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
They really emphasize working with
board-certified herbalists whoknow how to create these
personalized formulas, and theyusually recommend treatment for
about three to six months.
It takes time for the herbs tohave their intended effect.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
All right, third intervention.
Low-level light therapy, LLLT.
This sounds quite different.
What's the basic idea?
SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
Yeah, it is different.
LLT uses specific wavelengths oflight, and the idea is to
stimulate the mitochondriainside our cells.
SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
The powerhouses of the cell.
SPEAKER_01 (08:18):
Exactly.
Mitochondria produce the cell'senergy, ATP.
So this light stimulation isthought to kind of boost their
function, ramp up energyproduction, like jump-starting a
tiny battery.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
Okay, how does boosting cell energy help with
fertility?
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Well, for eggs and sperm, the thought is that
increased ATP and reducedoxidative stress could improve
their quality and viability.
The Source mentions lab studies,in vitro studies, showing better
mitochondrial activity inreproductive cells after LLLT,
which could potentially helpfight some of that age-related
decline we talked about.
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
Does it help the uterine lining too?
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
Potentially, yes.
LLLT is thought to promoteangiogenesis.
That's the formation of newblood vessels.
It might also help repair andregenerate cells in the
endometrium.
So the end result could be athicker, healthier, more
receptive lining, again boostingthe chances for implantation.
SPEAKER_00 (09:08):
There was a study mentioned about LLLT in women
with low AMH.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yes, a 2017 study.
It involved 188 women with lowanti-Mullerian hormone levels,
which often indicates lowerovarian reserve.
After getting LLLT, the studyreported a 56% pregnancy rate
and a 38% live birth rate inthat group.
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
Those are pretty notable results, especially for
that group.
And how is LLLT done?
Is it invasive?
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
No, it's not invasive.
It's usually administered aboutthree times a week.
The Berkeley Center mentionsthey use FDA-cleared Saluma
devices, so they're usingestablished technology.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
We keep coming back to the Berkeley Center for
Reproductive Wellness.
They seem to have been doingthis for a while.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
They really have.
They're based in Midtown EastManhattan, and they were
actually the first complementaryreproductive medicine center in
the U.S.
Mike Berkeley founded it back in1998.
Wow,
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
1998.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
so that's over 27 years of specializing
specifically in this kind ofintegrative fertility And
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
Mike Berkley himself, he's quite well known
in this field.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
He is.
He's a licensed acupuncturist,board-certified in oriental
reproductive medicine, andreally considered one of the
pioneers in the U.S.
focusing just on reproductivehealth with these methods.
He has a strong reputation.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
And it sounds like working with conventional
doctors is important to theirapproach.
SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
Yes, definitely.
They're known for personalizedcare and building relationships
with many top reproductiveendocrinologists, the REs in New
York City.
They work with doctors andclinics at places like RMA, NYU,
Generation Next, Fernie, NewHope, Cornell, lots of the big
names.
It points to a really integratedmodel.
MARK
SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
MIRCHANDANI, And what about patient experiences?
What does the feedback looklike?
LESLIE
SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
KENDRICK, MD, Generally, it seems very
positive.
You see a lot of reports frompatients who finally got
pregnant after previous IVFcycles hadn't worked.
Reviews often mention MikeBerkley's knowledge, how
attentive the care is, thesupportive feeling at the
center.
They've got high ratings onYelp, good testimonials on
ZocDoc, Google.
MARK
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
MIRCHANDANI, Any specific examples The
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
source mentions one case of a successful transfer
after six previous failures andanother patient who really
valued the stress relief andholistic support even into her
second trimester.
SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
That's great to hear.
And they seem to make itaccessible, too.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Yeah, they offer flexible scheduling and they
even do home visits andtelehealth, which must be a huge
help when you're going throughthe demands of fertility
treatment.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Now, the source also gave us some hard data on IVF
success rates, the age and theimpact of PGTA, that genetic
testing.
Let's get into
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
that.
Right.
So the data, this is from SARS.
in HFEA around 2020, 2021.
It clearly shows that trend.
As women using their own eggsget older, the live birth rates
per embryo transfer tend to godown if you're not doing PGTA.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
Can you give us a rough idea of those numbers?
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Sure.
So for ages 35 to 37, the livebirth rate per transfer is maybe
30% to 38%.
Okay.
Then it drops for ages 38 to 40down to maybe 17% to 25%.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Quite a drop.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Yeah.
Then 41 to 42, it's lower still,like 10% to 13%.
And by ages 43 to 45, it'ssignificantly lower, maybe 4% to
6% per transfer without PGTA.
And the miscarriage risks,unfortunately, go up with age,
too.
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
So that's where PGTA, the preimplantation
genetic testing for aneuploidy,comes in.
Explain that again briefly.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
Right.
PGTA is basically screening theembryos before transfer.
It checks for the wrong numberof chromosomes that's
aneuploidy.
By picking embryos that have theright number, the euploid ones,
the aim is to boost the chanceof implantation and cut data.
down the miscarriage risk.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
And does the data show it makes a big difference,
especially for older women?
SPEAKER_01 (12:38):
Yes, it really seems to.
For that 35-37 group, using PGTAto choose a upload embryo can
push the live birth rate pertransfer up to maybe 40-50% and
lower miscarriage risk.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
That's significant.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
And the benefit gets even clearer as women get older
because the chance of havingchromosomally abnormal embryos
naturally increases quite a lot.
The source estimates it's maybe50-70% by age 40 and could be
80-90% by age 45.
So for that 43-45 group, findingand transferring a euploid
embryo could potentially givelive birth rates of, say, 25-35%
(13:11):
per transfer.
Much better odds.
SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
So PGTA definitely improves the odds for that
specific transfer, especiallywhen aneuploidy risk is higher
due to age.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Exactly.
But there's an important pointthe source makes.
While PGTA improves per transfersuccess rate, it doesn't
necessarily increase the overallchance of having a baby across
multiple cycles because thetesting itself might mean you
find fewer embryos that aresuitable for transfer overall.
SPEAKER_00 (13:37):
Ah, okay.
That's a critical distinction,fewer shots on goal potentially,
but each shot is maybe morelikely to score.
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Sort of, yeah.
That's a decent analogy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
So pulling it all together, how does the Berkley
Center suggest actuallyintegrating all this, the
acupuncture, the herbs, the LLLTwith the conventional IVF?
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
Well, based on their experience, they outline a few
key steps.
First, choose qualifiedpractitioners.
Their team are licensed pros,and crucially, they coordinate
with the patients' Okay,
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
collaboration is key.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
Yes.
Second, start early.
Ideally, begin thesecomplementary therapies about
three months before the IVFcycle kicks off.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Why three months?
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
It's thought that's roughly how long eggs and sperm
take to mature.
So starting early gives time topotentially optimize their
quality and the uterineenvironment, too.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
Makes sense.
Consistency matters, too, Iimagine.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
Absolutely.
They advise sticking to aregular schedule, typically
twice-weekly acupuncture, takingthe prescribed herbs
consistently, doing the LLLTsessions.
And they also mentioned that ifpregnancy occurs, they often
continue modified acupunctureweekly up to about week 13 to
support the early stages.
SPEAKER_00 (14:43):
And what about managing the stress component we
talked about?
SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
They highlight acupuncture's potential there,
specifically its ability to helpreduce anxiety and emotional
stress.
That can be a huge supportduring such a demanding process.
Coordinated care, just ensuringeverything works together
seamlessly with the patient'smain IVF plan.
Offering things like home visitsand telehealth helps make that
integration easier.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
So summing up, it sounds like adding these
complementary approaches couldoffer real hope, maybe improve
chances, particularly for peoplein that, say, 35 to 45 age
bracket where IVF success ratestend to dip.
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
That seems to be the key takeaway.
Using acupuncture, tailoredherbs, LLLT, the goal is to
directly address some of thosecritical factors, egg quality,
sperm health, uterinereceptivity, that can really
hinder IVF success.
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
And the Berkley Center for Reproductive Wellness
clearly positions itself as avery experienced place for this
kind of integrated approach.
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Yeah, definitely.
With over, what, 27 years doingthis and that focus on
personalized, evidence-informedcare, they offer a pretty
comprehensive way to supportpeople trying to build their
families.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
So if you listening are interested in learning more
about the Berkeley Center, theirmethods, you can reach them at
212-685-0985 or check out theirwebsite.
It's www.berkeleycenter.com.
It sounds like they really workon individual plans to help
optimize IVF outcomes.
You
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
know, this whole discussion really highlights the
potential of looking at thingsmore holistically, proactively
addressing differentphysiological factors,
integrating various therapies.
It makes you think, doesn't it,about how combining the
strengths of conventionalmedicine and these complementary
approaches might really shiftthe landscape for fertility
treatment in the future,empowering people more on their
journey.
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