LDS Dating with Jacob Orchard

Join us as we discuss dating in the LDS sphere, especially regarding expectations and preferences.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome everyone back to the Latter Day Stats podcast.
Now for those who weren't already aware, Utah Stats has
been rebranded to Latter Day Stats to more closely aligned to
the majority of our audience andthe interest in the content that
has been posted. So everything that you see on
the Instagram page, everything now that you hear on the podcast
is that of Latter Day Stats where we focus on exploring the

(00:23):
lives of Latter Day Saints and all its complexity and all of
its nuance. And we'd like to welcome Jacob
here today. Mine's also Jacob.
So we got to. We had double trouble today with
that. Yes, Sir.
Yeah, we are. We are very grateful to have
you. Yeah, I'm excited to be here.
First time. So.
Yeah, it's awesome. We tell everyone a bit about

(00:45):
your background and who you are and where you came from, what
you do. Yeah, my name is Jacob.
I'm from the Boise area of Idahoso I'm not super farm town.
I would say it's pretty similar to a lot of areas like in the
valley of Utah. And now I'm just here in Provost
studying at BYU. I'm studying biochemistry so I
spend most of my time in the Benson taking classes that

(01:06):
people hate since most people don't like chemistry.
Work in a research lab, work as a pharmacy technician right now,
and I'm actually in the bishopric in my ward.
I only mentioned that just because it might be irrelevant.
Yeah, it's awesome. It's awesome.
Wait, so you're from the Boise area?
Where in the Boise area are you from?
I'm from Meridian so just outside it's more like the
suburbs of Boise. Yeah, I'm from Nampa actually.

(01:30):
Are you really? Yeah.
I went to high school. OK, cool.
I went to Rocky Mountain. Rocky Mountain, you guys, this
cross country team crash just every year he got.
He was crazy, yeah. Yeah, Rocky is pretty, pretty
good. My 2 younger siblings, they
actually did super well in crosscountry on track and they would

(01:50):
usually go to like state and stuff so.
Very cool that's awesome So whatled you to do pre Med and also
what focus are you wanting to dothen in Med school if you're
accepted? Yeah, so I'm actually pre
dental, OK. So I'll be going to hopefully
going to dental school in the next two years.
I'll be applying not this cycle,but next.
I'm hoping to do just general dentistry.

(02:11):
I think there's a little bit more variety in that.
And when you specialize, he kindof just do the same thing over
and over and you usually get paid more for it.
But I kind of need variety in mylife, so hopefully, hopefully
I'll be doing just general dentistry in a couple years.
So I just like the lifestyle, get paid to be able to support a
family. True.

(02:31):
That's awesome. Very cool, very cool.
Well today we're going to be talking a little bit about
dating and I just want to 1st ask just how's your experience
been in Utah and how did it compare to in Idaho?
Because I know growing up in Nampa, we had a pretty strong
presence of members, and so we had a lot of casual dating that

(02:52):
happened. And I feel like that kind of
prepared me for dating in Utah and just everything else, Right.
But I wanted to ask, how was your experience both in Idaho
and now here in Utah and at BYU in dating?
What's been like? Yeah.
I would say generally it's just been a fairly positive
experience. It's a little different just

(03:13):
because most of my dating or notmost of but all of my dating in
Idaho was in high school. Then I graduated year at BYU and
then and then I went on my mission, came back and I've
dated in Utah since. Though I haven't really
experienced what post high school dating is like in Idaho.

(03:34):
And I can't really speak to whatdating in Utah and high school
is really like, but I would say overall it's pretty positive.
I would say where I grew up, there's a lot of members too.
In my high school, there's like the 30% of the students, they're
members. So it was pretty easy to find
people who are also obvious thatyou could date.
Most friend groups that I had were formed around, like, board

(03:55):
boundaries or stake boundaries. Then we had all the same
classes. And then you would go to mutual
together and then you would go to church together.
And so it was easier to find people to date who were on a
similar level of like, yeah, like we're just doing group
dates or like, this is supposed to be more planned out.
So I went to all the school dances.
And yeah, I had a girlfriend in high school.

(04:16):
And then I came here to BYU and I've had a couple relationships
and time that I've been here in Utah.
And I've used in the past datingapps extensively also, just like
casual dating with people from classes or my ward or whatever
it may be. And I would say generally it's a

(04:38):
pretty positive experience. Yeah.
That's like the general overview.
I don't know if there are any specifics you want to get into.
Yeah. Yeah, sure.
Thank you. So it sounds like you've had a
pretty positive experience overall.
So you mentioned that you've used ABS pretty extensively, and
So what has been your intention with dating?
Or rather, how seriously have you taken it and how is that

(05:01):
compared to your friends or yourroommates?
When I've dated, but it's also coming ways of whether it's more
casual or more, I guess intentional.
So freshman year and also in high school when I did have
relationships, in my mind, I never wanted to have a
girlfriend or be in a relationship when I went on a
mission. I just felt that if you wait for

(05:22):
someone when you go on a missionand you don't marry them
afterwards, that's kind of not asuper cool thing to do because
you make them wait all that timeand then you kind of just like
break up with them when you get back.
And not that there's necessarilyanything wrong with that.
I just didn't really want to make the decision of who I marry
like when I was in high school or even like my freshman year of

(05:44):
college. And so I always had that thought
in my mind that I would break upwith them and maybe I guess I
could consider after I came back, seeing if things worked
out again, but they didn't. And I didn't want to pursue any
of those relationships again. So I came back from my mission.
I got into I, I went along quitea few dates.

(06:06):
I was excited to kind of like get back into the, the dating
scene. I wasn't super, I was in a rush
to like get married or to get into relationships.
I was going on dates like here and there just from dating apps,
maybe people in the ward. And then I got into a
relationship that lasted a couple months and kind of got to
that point where we were considering like, are we going

(06:26):
to make this super serious? Like are we going to consider
marriage And then decided not to.
And then I got into this probably 3 or 4 month long
period where I was using dating apps like almost exclusively
trying everything out. And it was very casual.
Not in the sense that I was not looking for a relationship at

(06:48):
all, but that I was very intentional.
And like, I mean, they're going to pursue a relationship with
this person or I'm not going to just like date him for fun.
I almost thought that those like3 or 4 months is kind of like
practice time. I was watching a lot of like
YouTube videos and like, you know, how to hold better

(07:09):
conversations or to treat a woman nicely on dating.
I'm pretty familiar with like a lot of the online spaces.
So I never got into like the redpillar like in so stuff that was
like, you got to like be hyper masculine and like, don't give a
woman attention so that you attract her.
But you know, just like charismaand command stuff, just like

(07:29):
interesting questions to ask on a date.
And so it was kind of this like training period where I was
like, I'm going to use these dating apps to go on a lot of
dates and like treat them, treatthem nicely.
And it's like a relationship comes from it.
Like we kind of headed off. Like maybe it'll work out but I
wasn't like super serious of dating like one person in that

(07:52):
time frame. Yeah, OK.
OK. Yeah, thank you.
So you mentioned that you kind of grinded a lot on studying
almost how to date, right and like how to just have a have a
better experience, right. What's kind of like the best
thing you've learned, or like the most interesting question to
ask, or just like something thatdramatically changed your

(08:14):
experience in dating for the better?
Yeah, I think two things. I think questions in general are
super good. I think people love to talk
about themselves. And so usually when I hear from
a lot of my friends who are girls who go on dates with guys,
they'll just kind of like talk about themselves.
And I get it because I feel likeguys usually won't talk about

(08:34):
themselves to other guys, if that makes sense.
Yeah. And so when there's when they go
on a date and there's finally like a girl who's kind of like
asking them questions about certain things, the guy will
love to just like gush about themselves or like all these
stories and whatever. And they don't really pay
attention to the person that they're dating.
And so I think just having like a strong interest in that

(08:55):
person, like not just oh, where are you from and what are you
studying? But like, why do you do this?
Tell me about like a time that you learn something new about
yourself or when was the last time?
I mean, maybe these aren't like first date questions, like, oh,
what was the last time you criedthat?
It's kind of intense, especiallyif this is the first time you
met someone. But just questions that kind of

(09:18):
get more out of the person just because people do love talking
about themselves and they kind of like builds A deeper
connection rather than like, that's cool that you're like
letting exercise science, you know, like that's awesome.
Very cool, very cool. So did you enter into your
current relationship when you were still in a bishopric?
Because I'm curious to ask if being in a bishopric as a single

(09:42):
guy made any impact on your dating life, especially, like,
within the ward. Right.
Because because I know, I mean, I've heard that some people are
kind of against dating within their ward and, you know, some
aren't. But has that late, like,
impacted you at all? Yeah.
I think I'll speak to that latter part initially was just
like Danny in the ward because honestly, I totally get it.

(10:04):
Like dating in the ward can be rough, especially sometimes for
people when they break up with somebody.
It's hard to like create that space if you're seeing them at
every family that we've deemed and every church meeting on
Sunday. And your roommate who got
married last summer, it was to someone in the ward.
I have two roommates. They're dating people in the

(10:25):
ward. The other bishopric member of my
ward dating someone in the ward.And so I'm blessed to be an
award that's pretty good. The people there are not very
surface level. It's not very gossipy.
At least that's been my perception or my friend's
perception. And so the people are pretty
down to earth and they're it's pretty.
So do I say it healthy? I guess you could say it

(10:47):
emotionally. And so it makes dating in within
the ward a little safer, I guessyou could say.
And I would to that point of like, has it impacted my
relationships being the bishopric?
So the relationship that I'm in currently, it started right
around the time that I actually got called his Bishop member.
So he had been dating for a couple weeks, not officially,

(11:09):
and then I got called into the bishopric.
And so that this relationship kind of preceded this, but I, I
was actually elder scoring president.
And so that's relevant just because I handled some of the
ministering assignments. And so I even had the thought I
was like, oh, like I could assign myself to this person to

(11:33):
like spend more time with them. But on the one hand, I was like
1, I don't want to abuse my search calling to kind of like
romantically pursue someone. And two, I just think that kind
of ruins the whole point of the assignment, right?
It's to. Yeah.
Minister to them and if you're trying to romantically pursue

(11:55):
them, that can kind of like makethings weird and so I
purposefully did not but myself as their ministry brother or
sister as well as other relationships within the ward or
even just like crushes. I tried to avoid putting people
within those assignments becauseI feel like that can kind of

(12:17):
like sour the the relationship a.
Little bit interesting. Yeah.
You know, I bet that's happened before with, with how many just
people have been elders from presidents or whatever.
I bet that some, some elders from presidents at BYU or
something at some point was like, you know, I kind of like
this girl, so I'm just going to assign myself to her or like, or

(12:39):
I know my buddy likes this girl,so I'm going to play matchmaker
and assign him to her, you know what I mean?
Like, like I, I, I mean, I haven't heard any stories about
that happening, but I bet that it's happened at least once.
I mean like, you know. Yeah, probably somewhere.
I mean, just like how easy it is.
Like I just, I mean, obviously you seek revelation for who will
go better with people and you counsel with the other members

(13:00):
of the bishopric. But to just make most of the
assignments, I just go on to LCRand I map out who goes with who
and then hit save and then like the bishopric approves it.
And so it's so easy that there'sgoing to happen like some others
from president or somebody who'sdone something like that.
Yeah, I would be so mad if I found out that someone's nothing

(13:22):
that that might that like, oh, man, it it like if I was a
Bishop and I found out that my elephant president was like
playing matchmaker, you know, I'd be like, what are you doing,
dude? That's that's.
Great. Yeah.
And I've heard of like bishops who kind of like have that
tendency to they, they really want to play matchmaker.
So they'll like ask members of the war to ask somebody else out

(13:44):
or like set up dating events like speed dating things within
the wards. And I get the idea because like
it is YSA single adults and they're trying to get people to
marry. But I just, I don't know, I
think that's a bit much and it creates like awkward moments.
I have a good Bishop who's not like that.
He has kids our age, but he's like super down to earth and

(14:07):
kind of, kind of gets it. That's awesome.
That's awesome. We'll surf into some stats here
and kind of dive into kind of your your experience and
relationship to them, right? First, I want to talk about just
kind of expectations for first date and just kind of what is
expected from both men and womenin this kind of sphere, right?

(14:31):
I mean, unsurprisingly, about 76% of women.
Do you expect men to make the first move in terms of
expressing interest, right? Like asking on a date or
whatever, right. But men, though, have also
expressed that they find it veryattractive and really, really
like it when women make the first move on them.
Are you able to kind of speak tosome of those numbers in this
experience? Yeah.

(14:52):
I think there's a couple things that I would speak to with that.
I would say on the women's side,I found kind of a, an opinion
change with that topic. And that originally I think I
was pretty in favor of like encouraging my friends who are
girls to like ask out the guys that they're interested in just

(15:15):
because I heard a lot of complaints of like, I'm just not
getting asked out enough. Or they're these guys that I'd
really like to go on dates with,but they're just not asking me.
And in my mind, I was like, well, why don't you just like
go, go ask them? And so I would encourage them
like if there's this guy you're interested in, you should pursue
it and you should ask him on a date.
Like I feel like guys would findthat really attractive.

(15:39):
I kind of tried that for a couple months and then was like
after talking with them. And I feel like after learning a
little bit more, like from what I've heard and sometimes been is
that usually when a guy initiates relationships, it it
goes better Because if a girl has to make some of the first

(16:01):
moves to ask a guy out, usually the guy isn't putting in enough
effort to want to really be in arelationship with that person.
And I feel like that's like an early sign of some unhealthy
relationship dynamics. So not to say that none of those
work out because that's how my roommate got married is his
current wife was actually the first one to really like make

(16:24):
some moves. But I don't know, I think it's
just that it kind of shows the women that the guy asking them
out will take initiative. And I want to say lead, but I
would say initiative. And when they do that early on,
that's a good sign for the relationship going forward.

(16:47):
So I think I've kind of switchedand not that I'm against that
all women asking out guys, but Ithink I understand a little bit
more why more women don't ask guys out just because some have.
And I thought there would be like a high rate of success, but
there's actually there actually wasn't, at least in my anecdotal
experience. OK, OK.

(17:08):
Yeah. I feel like, I don't know.
I was asked out by a girl once in college prior to getting
married. And I remember I was like, so
confused. I was like, what does she like?
Like me? I don't think she does, but
like, like, like, what's going on?
But like, it like made my day. I was like, Oh my gosh, wow.
That's that's cool. And she just said, yeah, you
just looked looked fun. And I thought it'd be just cool.

(17:29):
And I was like, wow, my heart islike melting.
That's it's, you know, so wonderful, you know, so I don't
know. Have you ever been asked out by
a girl before? And was like if you have.
Technically a couple times, liketwo or three times at work, but
it's usually and I I say this injust like such a nice way, but

(17:53):
just some characters, some kind of like not super socially
aware, like quirky people. And they've they've like gone up
to like all the middle Co workers and they're like, do you
want to go on a date with me? They're like no, like I'm doing
this. And then they just like kind of
go around and ask all the guys in the OK place I was working
at. So I don't feel like that really
quite counts. So not really, no I.

(18:14):
OK, all right, all right. Next thing I wanted to ask about
is I had heard the stereotype, so actually I'll back up.
It's one of my favorite things to do on this page is to look
into things that people think are things, you know, like
stereotypes, whatever, right? And like actually see if there's

(18:35):
substance to them, right? And one thing that we found is I
asked women, I said, hey, what kind of people are you generally
more interested in dating? And I asked like, people in your
ward, like return missionaries, that mutual friend, you know,
like, whatever it is, right? And there is a ever so slight
preference for men who serve foreign speaking missions

(18:57):
compared to men who serve stateside speaking missions.
Now, it's not that large. About 45% of women said that
they feel more inclined to date someone who's who served
stateside, whereas about 50% ishsaid that they are more inclined

(19:20):
to date someone who served foreign.
The foreign. Have you heard that stereotype
at all? And have you experienced that at
all? I've heard it, but only from
your page. And so it's kind of, yeah, kind
of new to me. And so I haven't experienced
that or really seen that too much.
So I served in California in theAnaheim Mission, and I was

(19:43):
English speaking. So I was stateside, loved it,
loved California. Feel like it gets too much hate,
but I get it. We won't get into that today.
Yeah. I, I mean, I, I think my initial
thoughts on that would just be if it is statistically
significant, my guess or intuition would be that it's
probably a signal for something else.

(20:05):
Like I don't think that it's actually the fact that they
served foreign versus like served stateside because there
are places that are foreign thatare like super nice and wealthy
and you could say easy. Versus places in the states that
are like the boonies or like crackdown super dangerous.

(20:27):
And so I would say it's more so that the idea of like serving
foreign is like a signal or justtougher or more assertive.
And that's like a better signal for just a healthy per healthier
person emotionally or like in a relationship.
Not that that's true, but that it's just like consciously it's
just a signal for sure for that.I'm curious too, if there's like

(20:49):
a like a novelty to it, like, oh, they speak this language and
so they feel kind of new or novel or foreign, you know what
I mean? And so it's like, oh, it's it,
it's like this, you know, like a, a fancier version almost, you
know what I mean? Like, oh, yeah.
Like it's an added skill or likea like an added thing or, oh,
maybe he'll take me to Mexico tosee his mission.
I like travelling, right? You know what I mean?

(21:10):
I don't know. I don't know.
Yeah, I think there's just like something about that exotic
nature of like being out of the country and like something new
and as well as that. I think that's true.
I think that's true. I want to talk a little bit now
about first dates and things too.
So I asked women and I was curious how many women just
accept every date that they are given just to be polite, right?

(21:34):
And so I was like, OK, well, howmuch do you agree with this
statement? I accept every first date I'm
asked on just to be polite. And about 62% of them agreed to
that, right. And, and I'll break it down
about 15% strongly agreed and then about 48% somewhat agreed.
So have you ever had a conversation with those you have

(21:57):
either been been on dates with or your friends about kind of
this phenomena of just, you know, accepting a date just to
be polite? Absolutely.
I'm honestly surprised that 60, it's only 62%.
I thought it would have been higher.
And obviously my experience is alittle more anecdotal.
And then it's like basically my ward and my work and being in

(22:17):
the chemistry department, I feellike the the women in the
chemistry field are not, as you could say, stereotypically
outgoing as maybe someone in in like marketing or some other
business major. But most of the girls that I
talked to, it's really common for them to go on dates with
guys that they have 0 interest in going out with just because

(22:39):
they're afraid to say no. So earlier I kind of talked
about how I was like, oh, you girls should ask guys out more.
You should be the one to like initiate.
And this kind of ties into that.A lot of the girls that I talked
to, they're just not assertive enough to say no.
And I feel for them because it'shard, it's uncomfortable.
And so I'm always encouraging myfriends to be like, if there's a

(23:01):
guy you don't want to go out with, like, say no.
I distinctly remember one time Iwas talking with a friend and
she was telling me about how horrible the first date was.
He just talked about himself. There was even like this little
like, weird argument thing he got like upset about on the
first date. And I was like, oh, so you're
not like seeing him again? And she's like, no, I'm going on

(23:22):
a second date. And like why is she's like I
couldn't say no when he asked meout on the second date like it
was just too uncomfortable for me.
And so I feel for that. Like it sucks.
I just, I've, I feel bad that somany women here have to go on
dates with guys that they just have 0 interest in because

(23:44):
they're afraid to say no. So I wish more of them did
because I would save them a lot of time and just uncomfortable
dates. For sure, for sure.
And I feel like a lot of men honestly will sometimes get
angry at women for saying no or,you know, for me, like, how come
you aren't interested in me? You know, I'm a good guy.

(24:05):
I available all these things andalmost had the sense of
entitlement and, and try to likechase after someone who you
know, who doesn't want them. But I feel like in reality, when
women say no and are pretty quick to reject, it's honestly
better because I feel like it just saves more time, you know
what I mean? And like.
I don't know about you, but whenI was dating, I was, I don't

(24:26):
know, I, I think I'm a very analytical, very logical, like
let's get to the chase guy, right?
And so I was super direct after dates.
I was like, hey, here's how I feel.
I want to know how you feel. If you're not feeling it, you
know, it's OK. I just want to know one way or
the other, right? And I think some women were
like, oh, oh, that's kind of weird that he's that he's asking

(24:46):
that directly, right? But some were like, oh, OK,
sweet. I have space to like actually
express how I actually feel, youknow?
And so it resulted in a lot of nose, right?
But it saved me a lot of time too.
You know what I mean? So I mean, I don't know about
you, but like I mean, I think it's almost more, it's almost
helpful when you know there are faster nose, you know what I

(25:07):
mean? No I absolutely agree.
I feel like I get it, the not wanting to be so direct because
it almost feels like sometimes it, it takes a little bit of the
romance out of it, you know, like, do they like me?
Do they not like me? How's it going?
There's like a little bit of that like mystery or like
intrigue, but I feel like the communication just saves both of
you time and it's just like way more healthy.
If you're like right from the onset, you know, you don't need

(25:30):
to stay on the first date. Like, hey, are we like going to
start dating or like, what's going on here?
Yeah, but just being like super clear and honest about your
expectations. But to your earlier point, I
totally agree. Like I feel bad for the woman
who say no and like the guy getsupset.
Like literally just this week I had a friend who wanted a date
with the guy. She wasn't interested and she
had taken some of my advice of like saying no more.

(25:52):
So she drafted this text to sendhim that was like, hey, like, I
just want to be friends. That wasn't really interesting
in the state. And he sends this huge paragraph
that's like, OK, like, I get that Also.
You're everything I ever wanted in the girlfriend.
Here's why you would make such, like, a good girlfriend to me.
And it's like, I just feel there's so many emotionally

(26:14):
immature men these days. And I feel like it's.
It's really. Yeah.
It's really unfortunate. Yeah.
Yeah, there's a lot I could say about that, but.
There's, there's an Instagram page called Provost Wars dates
that you may have heard of. And I see and I see some stories
and I'm just like horrified, like one of them.

(26:35):
And this is not sponsored by theway.
I think it's a great page. But there was one story where
the guy, the guy interrupt late from the date was just, I think
like in his work clothes or whatever, and was like, hey, I'm
hungry. Is it OK if we stop by and eat
something? And she's like, yeah, of course,
you know, So he picked her up late.
They go swing in to a drive through or something.

(26:58):
He orders food for himself, doesn't ask her if she wants
anything, starts to eat the foodin the parking lot, doesn't
offer her any of the food and then drives around afterwards.
And then just asked her if she wants to make out that was the
date. Yeah, it's super.
It's so unfortunate because I feel like that's just like the
stereotypical like bad Provo date like guy come comes late,

(27:21):
not interested in the girl at all, no plan you know for
anything and basically just wants to make out.
No effort. Yeah, it was just like 0 effort.
And I, I feel like when I came back to my mission and I was
ready to like get into the dating scene.
Like everyone talks about like how bad the like dating scene
here is and here in Provo is. And obviously I'm just drawing
from my anecdotal experience of like how I treat women on dates

(27:44):
and how my friends and roommatestreat women on dates.
But growing up in Idaho, you, you know, we play in the group
dates and you put a little effort in and maybe you get them
flowers a couple dates in or like, especially in a
relationship for sure. I was just confused like how
could there be so many, you know, bad, bad apples that are
like kind of tainting the water for everybody else.

(28:07):
But the more and more stories I've heard, it's just, it's so
common for even guys who are nice to put in like 0 effort on
dates. And I'll go on date or like I've
gone on dates with girls where they're like, yeah, the guy
invited me over to his place andhe said there were going to be
people and there were no people and he just asked to make out.

(28:27):
Or he invited me over to his place to just watch a movie on
the first date. Or just like.
It's scary being a woman. Like, yeah, And I I don't think
I quite understood it because inmy mind I was just like, oh,
it's Provo UT like, how bad can it really be?
Like, of course there's like some bad people and like those
bad dates are going to stick around or like stick out, you

(28:49):
know, in their head. But I don't know, the more and
more girls that I talked to and just like not even like awkward
dates, but like borderline or even fold like sexual assault on
these like dates, you know? And I feel like it's almost
harder at times. I'm not saying this to like
scare anybody, but like, it's harder at times in Utah because

(29:10):
at least when you're out of Utah, from what I hear, when you
go on a date with someone who isa member of the church, at least
if they're pretty active, it's alittle easier to tell, like if
they do have standards for how they're going to treat you.
But it's hard because you'll go on a date with a guy who's like
another's quorum president and he tries to like have you touch

(29:32):
himself like inappropriately on the first or second date.
And so it's even harder to tell like who's going to treat you
right because you can't use the usual like active member of the
church in high standing calling as like a sign for if they're
going to treat you well. Yeah, for sure.
And I actually want to touch on that a little bit because one

(29:54):
thing that I was really curious about, and for those who have
been following the page for a bit, a recent topic has been
around sexuality and the law of chastity and things like that.
And now we're transitioning backmore to some dating topics here
soon. But one thing that I was
surprised about is that at leastI've like growing up, if someone
broke the law of chastity, it was like, whoa, you're like one
in a million. You know this, you're a bad

(30:15):
person. This is this, you're alone in
this. You know, most people don't mess
up with the way you did bubble all these things.
But from the numbers, most people are having experiences,
you know, kind of on the edge ofthat law of chassis thing,
right, And whether it's and I and I want to add, you know,
there is a consensual element toit and a non conditional

(30:36):
element. He knows well too, you know what
I mean? And so when I served in the in
like my Bishop Rick, I was actually in a family ward.
I had just gotten married and I was living in Orem and you know,
obviously I wasn't the Bishop, so I didn't deal with those
things, right. But you know, it was never like
wasn't, you know, I think that was like brought up with a lot

(30:57):
of guests, you know what I mean?But I mean, I mean, I don't know
what like you heard in in your circles or you know, your
friends, but right. But like from from what I've
like seen in the data, there arekind of a lot of like folks who
aren't on the same page in firstdates with a lot of chastity and
boundaries, that kind of thing. You know what I mean?
Yeah, I know. I totally agree.
I think there's just a lack of communication.

(31:18):
Like within a lot of church spheres, you don't have a lesson
on the specific boundaries of the law of chastity.
I feel most of the time you go to a lesson and you find out
it's the law of chastity and youget a little uncomfortable
because they're they're, you know, they're, they might
probably going to bring out likea pretty bad analogy for why

(31:40):
you're a ruined cupcake if you've had sex before and nobody
else wants to have a lift cupcake or a rotten apple.
And I've just heard horror stories of, like, the way that
it's talked about. And so people don't really talk
about it. And people don't really talk
about it with their parents. I have friends who have parents
who, you know, won't even talk to them about periods.
And so the idea that those same parents would talk to them

(32:04):
about, like, the specific boundaries for what, you know,
constitutes breaking the law of chastity or what your own
personal boundaries should be. Yeah.
I feel like that's probably whatleads to a lot of the
incongruence in what people you know engage in in a relationship
for marriage. For sure, for sure.
I found a lot of success in my dating when I should have asking

(32:27):
what people's boundaries were. I don't know if you've ever kind
of like had these conversations or like, you know, heard, you
know these things, right? But like I feel like, and
actually I'll pull up the numbers, but most men are scared
to initiate kissing girls on a date, right?
64% of men either agree or strongly agree that they are

(32:49):
scared to initiate kissing, right?
But what's interesting is that alot of women are actually OK
with kissing on the first date. So if you had to guess, what
percentage of women would eitheragree or strongly agree that
that they are OK with kissing onthe 1st on the first date if it
was a good date? I was just about to say, I feel
like that depends on whether they're actually interested in

(33:11):
the guy that they're growing up with or if it was a good date.
So if it. Was a good date and they're OK
with kissing the first date. That it was a good date and they
were OK with kissing me. Maybe like 60%.
Like right on. So yeah, most I don't know about
you. One thing one thing that I also
asked was men seem to be scared to initiate kissing, but they

(33:34):
also don't want to ask because they think it's awkward to ask.
So I asked women and I said, hey, do you think that it kills
the mood if a guy asks consent or permission to kiss you?
And the vast majority of women said, no, actually consent is
sexy. You know, consent is cool, you
know, like it's actually really attractive if a guy asks to kiss

(33:54):
me. Have you ever heard any stories
from your friends or in your experience about just asking
consent against someone? Yeah, that's actually been my
experience. So I I used to not just because
like, you know, you grow up and you watch the movies and they
don't. It's all.
It's all just like natural and it all just like low super well

(34:14):
and asking feels like you can ruin the moment, especially if
it's you know, because you're kind of just like quiet and
you're sitting there or whateverthe the moment may be.
But I found that it's actually way, way better.
And I've never had a girl say noor like it killed the mood like
it was, I don't know, it just flowed super well.

(34:37):
And so I'm not particularly surprised by the stat of like
how many women actually don't think it kills the mood if you
ask. And so I've encouraged more and
more of my guy friends, like if you don't know, like just ask
and it makes it, you know, it makes the girl feel so much more
comfortable and seen and like communicated to.
And so I think it's just a healthier way to go about it.

(34:59):
I remember the very first time Ithink I asked, it was kind of
uncomfortable in my part becauseI'm like, am I really asking,
like, if I can kiss this girl? Like, how dare I be so forward
with, like, my intentions or like the way I'm feeling right
now? But I think it's just way
better, yeah. Yeah, and, and I feel like too,

(35:21):
like you're, you're probably more likely to have girls be
open to engaging with you more if you ask in the 1st place.
You know what I mean? Like I think girls will be more
interested in you when when theyrealize, oh, he's actually
asking about me and he's curiousabout me and my boundaries and
my perspectives, my beliefs. You know, he, he's actually
interested in me, right? Because I feel like, you know,

(35:43):
it's different if, if someone asks if your boundaries,
universities, if they just kind of go forward and they're trying
to just take what they want, youknow what?
I mean, yeah, no, I totally agree.
Now I want to go through some qualitative responses.
So we are going to go through and I asked a ton of men who who
are members of the church what their red flags are in women,

(36:06):
right. And so, so I'll go through and
I'll read one or two and then I'll ask you kind of your
personal perspective and also what what you've heard from your
friends as well, OK. How's that?
Sounds great. So OK, so here's one and this is
a whole list. This man found that his biggest

(36:27):
red flags were women who were stereotypical Utah white girls.
High maintenance and overly clinging and overly sarcastic.
Loud, big scenes and that sort of thing.
What's kind of your take on the whole, you know, what is a
stereotypical Utah white girl, you know, does that actually

(36:51):
have any meaning or like, you know, and what about this idea
of high maintenance? And what does that mean to you
and to others you think? Yeah, no, great.
The stereotypical Utah girl kindof signals to people or is there
a typical Utah guy kind of signals something to people?
And it kind of signals like a bit of like shallowness.
And I would say probably like a level of high maintenance.

(37:13):
And, you know, to that point, I think it's popular enough like
the bleach blonde hair and the spray tans and the, you know,
super baggy jeans. Like there's a reason like
certain things are popular. And so obviously there is like a
demand for that, I guess you could say, but I think it just

(37:33):
kind of signals to people like alevel of, of shallowness or
surface level personality that people aren't super interested
in. And so I haven't really come
across those stereotypical people.
I mean, obviously I'm about a Commission major.
I I have a business minor. And so I spend a bit of time in
the Tanner building. And so stereotypically, I mean,

(37:55):
I feel like you would see those people more, but maybe that's
just me being such mental. So yeah.
OK. OK.
Thank you. Thank you.
I'll move on to a few more. Can I actually add real quick,
yeah, yeah, please about like the the high maintenance thing,
I feel like Oh yeah, yeah, this is something that I've probably

(38:16):
learned more about recently, just in the last couple years.
I would ask like what high maintenance means to certain
people because just with a lot of the girls that I've talked to
and just I like the bar of standards for like how they guys
should treat the girl is so low,right?
Putting effort into planning a date, wearing something nice,

(38:36):
getting the door for the girl, making sure that they feel nice,
you know, just like simple things.
I wonder if they would consider that to be high maintenance,
right? Is high maintenance just as like
a caveat for I have to do any effort at all?
Or if that just means like I feel like stereotypically high
maintenance would mean like theyrequire a lot of like financial

(38:59):
money of like dating a lot of money for their nails or getting
their hair done or like their spray tans or their clothes or
whatever it is. So I'd be interested to see what
they mean by that. Yeah, One thing that was brought
up to me because so our previouspodcast guest was Connor Snap,
who owns the Pull Up Utah Instagram page.
And he mentioned because becausehe's dated his fair share of

(39:23):
girls who are high maintenance, as he said.
And what he said was that, and he gave a definition that I
hadn't, hadn't heard, but it wasthat they, they were more
preoccupied with how they lookedand everything that they
couldn't like enjoy the moment. And so, and he gave a story
about how he had a girl he was dating one time who said who was

(39:48):
trying to oh, sorry. She said that she wouldn't post
a picture or of them together onher feed because none of them
matched the aesthetic of her Instagram feed.
And so from his perspective, High Maintenance was valuing
appearance more than relationships like that.
And and I was like, huh, I hadn't thought of that before.

(40:11):
You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I would totally agree
with that. I think for me, when I'm trying
to describe that same idea of like not being surface level, I
kind of refer to them as like, are they down to Earth, right?
Do they have like a more like personal relationship with
people? Like, do they care about like

(40:31):
the aesthetic of things and likeparents of things, or do they
actually care about meaningful stuff?
Yeah, yeah, it's true. So people are different and
everyone has their different kinds of, you know, preferences
for ideologies in a partner, right?
And so example, some men's foundit a red flag if they were

(40:53):
feminist or, you know, focus toomuch on their career, as they
said in their words. However, they're also men who
said that that they found it to be a red flag if they didn't
have any any other plans or desires in their future other
than to be a, you know, a stay at home mom, right?
And so what's kind of been your take in that regard on what you

(41:15):
feel of the conversation has been with men and with women,
you know, in this dating scene regarding women's careers and
their, you know, roles as mothers and things like that?
Yeah, no, I, I love this topic. Actually, this is one that I'm
passionate about. See, initially going off of
those questions about like, it'sa red flag if a woman's like a

(41:36):
feminist or like want to focus on their career, I feel like
once again, those are signals for something probably a little
bit more political than it is actual like practical in their
day-to-day life. Yeah.
Rather than, you know, like I, Idon't think that they would
really have an issue if like their wife wanted to work.
I think those are just kind of like signals for something else

(41:59):
that they've probably seen online or in media.
But to the point more generally feel like this is more of like a
societal thing than it is like a, and we see it on like a micro
level here in Utah. I think generally speaking, in
the last, you know, 100 years plus, women have done a pretty
good job taking on more masculine roles or masculine

(42:21):
traits, right? Women have come more into the
workplace. There's more women working,
there's more graduating college and doing well academically and
kind of getting into these male spaces.
And I feel like generally men haven't done a great job of
taking on more feminine traits, you know, being more sociable
with other people, having like good emotional intelligence,

(42:46):
being able to communicate how they feel or the way that they
treat other people. And so I feel like you probably
see that like in the micro level, like men have a are
having like a little bit more ofan issue with like women working
because that kind of like, you know, takes over that role of

(43:06):
maybe leading the family more that men see it.
And there's a number of reasons why that could be true, but I
feel like part of it may just bethe behavior that was modeled to
them from their parents or whatever it may be for.
Sure. Yeah.
And I'm curious, too, about how that narrative background is

(43:28):
changing, right? Because so I have a friend and
he very much is looking for a woman who will just stay home
with the kids, do all, all of the home things, right.
And then my friend intends to, you know, totally provide
monetarily and do all of the more stereotypically, you know,
masculine things, you know, fix things around the house, you

(43:50):
know, all that, right? You know, And so a very divided,
you know, role, right? And it's interesting because he
doesn't seem super open to a kind of divided set of
responsibilities in terms of sharing things, You know what I
mean, right? And so I'm curious how much of
it is, it is a matter of preference.
Like I would rather just have mymy role and you have your role.

(44:14):
And I'm curious how much of it is kind of side of the
proclamation, like, well, this is my role, so I should morally
do this, if you know what I mean.
My wife and I, my wife's mom wasthe breadwinner growing up
because she worked as a nurse and then as like a nurse Co
director of a hospital, right? And her husband was a a teacher

(44:37):
in middle school, right? And so she did like everything.
And her husband was the one who would cook food in the evening,
that kind of thing, right. And so my wife kind of grew up
thinking like, OK, you know, I also am going to provide.
That's just kind of how things are, you know what I mean?
So I'm curious if, if you, if you have had friends, you know,
who have kind of, you know that a little bit and, and, and just

(44:59):
what you know your experience has been like with that.
Conversation. Yeah, no, absolutely.
From what I've seen, I think typically, you know, I don't
think you can blame your parentsfor everything.
You know, I have a couple friends who have siblings who
like, you know, they're going totherapy now and they've blame
their parents for every single bad thing that's in their life.
But I think going into a lot of like romantic relationships or

(45:21):
family dynamics, I think usuallymodel our behavior after what
we've seen or what we've grown up with.
For me, so my mom has her master's and she's a speech
pathologist. And then my dad also works as a
as a sales manager at this company.
And so both of my parents worked.
But because my mom was a speech pathologist, she was on a school

(45:43):
timetable. So I effectively had a stay at
home mom, but because my dad would work at typical 9:00 to
5:00, but then my mom was at work while we were at school and
because she was also working at a school and then she was off
during the summer. And so I grew up in a household
where my mom worked a lot, but she's still provided a lot
within the home. And my current girlfriend, she

(46:04):
wants to be APA. And so there's kind of a lot of
influences around me of hard working women.
I have an aunt who's an internalmedicine doctor and she's a
great example to me. And so I think I've had strong
female personalities in my life that have shown me that like,
you can be a mom and work and I think obviously can be a dad and

(46:28):
work. I, I don't want to call out
anybody, but I think it kind of goes back to that.
Like I feel like women have donea good job of taking on those
masculine traits. And I feel like men just haven't
done a good job of taking on those feminine traits.
And I feel like there's a part of this not wanting their wife

(46:49):
to work that would that comes from a place of like, I don't
want to be the one to do the home duties.
I don't want to be washing dishes.
I don't want to be doing the laundry and taking care of the
kids. And I'm not saying like every
guy who wants their wife to be astay at home mom, just like
hates their kids and doesn't want to do like house duties.
But I think there's a part of that where like the the guy just

(47:12):
doesn't want to like pick up anddivide a little bit more of the
the house responsibilities, right?
Like, I see a lot of things online where it's the
stereotypical after Thanksgivingdinner, all the the moms and
aunts get up and they do the dishes.
And then all the, like, female grandkids and cousins, they're

(47:33):
also, like, doing a little dishes while the guys get to
just, like, sit around the tableand watch football.
Stereotypical behavior that justgets modelled in homes that we
kind of want to upkeep. And so a lot of these guys, I
feel like, just don't really know how to switch that dynamic
and, like, operate more. Yeah.
With divided responsibilities. Yeah, for sure.

(47:54):
So I want to ask, so I want to ask you then what's kind of your
perspective or ideal in your future relationship or in your
future marriage, right. I know that for me and, and I'll
share a little bit. Well, what do you think?
But I always grew up in a household where things were
very, very assigned and very divided.
And so that we had our tour chart and they rotated.

(48:16):
So I was like, OK, on this Saturday, I am exclusively
responsible for this. And that's it, you know, and so
I always knew, you know, what toexpect.
I had my own dish night and all these things, right?
And then I got married and my wife grew up in a household
where everyone helps together with dinner, everyone helped
with help with cleanup and everything like that.
And it was a lot more communal help out kind of, you know, ebb

(48:36):
and flow, right? And so then we clashed a little
bit, you know, because I was like, you told me what you need
me to do, and I will do it consistently every time.
And I'll take care of my thing. You do your thing.
And she was like, I think I'd rather work together on these
things. And, you know, kind of like
heaven flow, you know, like, youknow what I mean?
And so, so we kind of had to find find our balance, right?
You know, so now example, like she does all of the cooking, but

(48:59):
I do all the dishes, right? But on some things we are still
together. Like, OK, we go shopping
together or we'll we'll take turns making the bed, you know,
whatever, right? And So what what it's kind of
like your ideal for what you think you would enjoy the most
in in a relationship and is thatrelated at all to kind of how
you grew up or like what do you think?

(49:20):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I feel like I would probably my
childhood would probably align more with with your wife's in
that it was a little more communal in my house.
I had, you know, I shout out my mom for like a strong female
personality and I also like shout out my dad for a strong
male personality and that they were good role models for me and

(49:40):
how that they would divide responsibility.
But I, I wouldn't say I grew up in like a carefree environment,
but I grew up in in an environment where things weren't
super big issues, right? Like if somebody didn't do the
dishes or like something wasn't clean, like it wasn't going to
devolve into like an argument orlike whatever it may be, because

(50:01):
at the end of the day, it's not a big deal.
And so I probably found more in that alignment of just like an
ebb and flow. That's kind of how I, I work
with my roommates. And it's a hard dynamic, you
know, to reach to, especially ifyou don't know somebody super
well, because it requires like some communication to be like,
hey, I don't like it when the dishes stack up in the sink.

(50:22):
I don't like it when there's like clothes all over the floor,
you know. And so I think if you establish
with that person, like what those are going to be, I think
it really works out for anybody.But for me personally, it's
probably just going to be some level of like, maybe I'll do the
dishes like tonight and you do it tomorrow, and maybe you're
working more this week. And so I need to pick up more of

(50:42):
their responsibilities. Like at the end of the day, it,
you know, those kinds of things just aren't a huge deal.
And so whatever works best is, yeah, what I'll do well.
It sounds like it's. It really relies on when
communicating with those you're,you know, involved with and two,
just not making a huge deal of things like, hey, it's OK if
someone forgets something. We just throw each other out and

(51:04):
we just kind of just go with theflow, right?
Absolutely. Yeah, it makes sense.
It makes sense. I'll read a few more here in
closing because I know we're almost up on our hour here.
But it's one thing I did I did want to bring up, which I think
is a very interesting topic is so there, there is a lot of
tension around preferences and whether people see them as valid

(51:27):
or not valid, right? I see a lot of things on
Instagram where it's the whole debate of, you know, women
having height requirements and then men saying, well, then I
can have a weight requirement, right?
And so I was curious about that.And I asked about what women saw
as the minimum height requirement for a man that they
date. And I also asked men how much
they cared about, you know, physical appearance.

(51:50):
So the average minimum requirement that women have for
men is 5 foot 9. So on average, you know, if we
took 200 women and and asked them how tall does men have to
be at minimum for you to consider dating him?
On average, it's 5 foot 9, right?
And I don't know about you, but as a man who was 5 foot five, I

(52:12):
was actually a little bit more pleased and surprised because I
was like, I hear so much about 6foot being the gold standard.
You know what I mean? And so is that the thing that
that you hear among your friends, men and women, and is
that, you know, actually a huge issue or is it just kind of
blown up on social media for clout or, you know, what's like,

(52:33):
you think? Yeah, I think it's definitely
exacerbated by social media and what's online maybe.
I feel like, at least this has been my experience talking with
friends and talking with family,women tend to be a little less
picky than they actually say. I feel like from the stories
that I've heard and the experiences that I've had, the
women typically tend to be a little bit more lenient and

(52:56):
like, being willing to go on a few more dates with a guy, even
if initially it didn't really work out.
Whereas guys and even me are a little more like first date,
like, didn't really work out. Like, yeah, like it's not
happening. Yeah.
And so even though it says, like, the minimum height is
like, fine, I don't think that would actually be like a

(53:17):
disqualifier for a guy who had every other single, like, green
flag for that person. I think usually women prefer a
guy who's at least taller than them.
And that typically works out formost guys because women on
average tend to be shorter than guys.
I think for the most part it's not actually as big of a deal as

(53:39):
people make it out to be. It's true, it's true.
And I actually ran the stats on that Tennessee and it and it
shows women who are taller have higher height requirements for
men because they just want them to at least be taller than them,
right? Yeah, it, it has got to be so
hard for my tall girls out there.

(54:00):
Like it is rough because all of the tall guys I know, they just
go for like shorties, like the 5253 girls and then all these
like 6263 girls I know are just like just have such, such a hard
time, you know, like it's not upto my short kings, I guess.
But girls don't normally want a guy who's shorter than them on

(54:20):
average. And so it's just harder for for
those taller girls. Yeah, for sure.
Short kings, I stand in solidarity with you as one
myself. I actually, my wife is actually
5 foot 0, so she is. But her boyfriend in high school
was like 6 foot one. Yeah.
And so. I don't know what that dynamic
is I'm. A She prefers me in my height

(54:42):
because she was like, wow, yeah,that was really, really
uncomfortable because I have to like stand up and lean and
almost get picked up just to kiss him.
You know what? I.
Mean. So like, yeah, it's a weird,
weird height. Few short guys out there who was
relevant to get dates if you're on mutual, adjust your height
filter to just be like 4 foot 10to like your height.
And then just like you know, because statistically most women

(55:04):
are going to swipe down on you if you if you are shorter than
them. So just like I don't know, I
don't know. I took a very a very optimized
efficiency kind of route in my use of mutual kind of.
And so I was like, OK, these aregoing to show me the women who
are most likely to swipe back onme.
So I'm going to like do and everything.

(55:25):
So I was but yeah, I was yeah, yeah, yeah.
So women often cite height for men as being a thing, right?
And the men retort and say, well, I won't date a woman who
is over this weight or whatever,right.
And so I asked and I said, OK, men, what is the most important
physical feature of a woman in determining her overall
attractiveness, right? You know, is it, you know, hair,

(55:47):
skin, eyes, you know, smile, youknow, figure, right, whatever,
right. But very strongly body shape and
physique was the number one mostcommonly cited factor in terms
of in terms of physical attractiveness, according to two
men. Whereas for women it was
extremely split. There actually was no pattern at

(56:07):
all. It was some some women said it
was hair, some said it was, you know, smile, some said it was
jawline, You know, whatever was right.
But men were pretty dominantly in favor of physique, right?
So can't can you speak to that from a male perspective And also
just, you know, in the conversations you've had with
your, you know, your girlfriendsand you know kind of what that

(56:30):
you know, is like, right? Yeah, I think that kind of goes
back to my earlier point that kind of justifies that.
I feel like women tend to give guys a little bit more of a
chance then guys sometimes will give girls a chance.
Yeah. I know it doesn't always seem to
be that way on social media and it always seems to be like,

(56:51):
well, girls only ever go for thehot guys.
But like, you know, it's not true.
You better bet these guys are, you know, lining up to it's,
it's tough. And so I, I feel bad for a lot
of those people who are judged so quickly or something like
their weight or their physique, but it certainly is a lot more

(57:14):
prevalent, right? Like guys are way more
judgmental about the physique orthe body weight of a girl then a
guy would, or a girl would be for a guy.
And so, yeah, it sounded like itwas even more like conclusive
for weight than it was for height for girls.
Is that right? Yeah.
Yeah. So I, I've been blessed.

(57:35):
I have a lot of my pretty much all of my guy friends and all my
girlfriends like they're very respectful people.
Like I've never heard a joke from one of my guy friends being
like, you know, that that chick is fat or like super overweight.
Like never. Like I don't know.
My friends and I have never talked about like the overall

(57:57):
like physique of women or like tried to objectify women even in
like a joking way. That's and that's probably just
my anecdotal experience. Like that's probably more common
than then I would think, but at least from the guys that I've
talked to, it's never been derogatory or objectifying in
those ways, so. Yeah, yeah.

(58:17):
And one thing that I found was interesting too was that in
terms of overall attractiveness.So I divided it into two
questions. I said, you know, what
determines physical attractiveness the most and what
determines overall attractiveness the most, right.
And men did say the personality,they contribute more to overall

(58:39):
attractiveness than, you know, like physical attractiveness,
right? But when it came to physical
attractiveness, you know, was that physique, right?
But one thing that was interesting was that when I read
through a lot of these red flagsand green flags, one sentiment
that I get like regarding weights and this kind of, you
know, tense subject is is a lot of men express just wanting a
woman who will take care of herself.

(59:02):
Is verbage that I often read is,you know, it's a green flag if
she takes care of herself or it's a red flag if she doesn't,
right? Or is it it's a green flag if
she works out or, or is fit, right?
And so I'm curious how much of it is a matter of like, I'm just
not attracted to you if you're this way and how much of it is,
you know, more of what it says about them.

(59:24):
And if people are quick to to tojudge, like, oh, if they're
overweight, then then they must not take care of themselves.
You know what I mean? I don't know.
What do you? Think.
I yeah, I think those guys are lying.
I think that they're trying to justify, you know, I feel, I

(59:44):
feel like it's valid for people to have have preferences and
have certain kinds of people that you're attracted to versus
not. You know, if we go through that
hypothetical, I don't think thatthose same guys would consider
the same, you know, overweight girls.
If they found out that that girl, like I've been going to

(01:00:06):
the gym every single day and they were super disciplined with
like a schedule and like all of those things.
I just don't think that that canactually be the case because if
that girl was still like super overweight or didn't have the
like, you know, hourglass physique that they were looking
for, I don't think that. They would change their mind.

(01:00:27):
I think they're just trying to get justification for why they
don't find that person attractive.
Which is fine if that's what youare not attracted to.
OK, OK. Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you.
Call them out. I like it.
Yeah, it's. Good.
Yeah. So in closing, I just want to
ask and well, first thank you for your time in being here.

(01:00:49):
And two, I, I want to just kind of ask like your closing
thoughts on how 1 can be successful dating within the
church and how to balance all ofdifferent factors that are
within a person. One thing I hear a lot is, you
know, there are so many people and it's competitive almost.

(01:01:10):
There is a sense of there are somany people and I want to get
noticed and I want to be appreciated.
And there are just so many good people out there that I just get
ground out, right. So what are kind of your
thoughts and experience, you know, related to having a
successful and just happy datinglife and being able to, you
know, wade through hard experiences?

(01:01:34):
Yeah, no, those are great questions.
I think it's different for the the guys and the girls in the
church. I feel like I've been kind of on
not both sides of that, but bothsides of the kind of feeling
like you can't really compete because there's like a lot of
competition and they're like, it's so hard.
There's like so many people. And I feel, and this is just my

(01:01:56):
anecdotal experience, I feel like it's a little easier for
for guys to be successful just because the standards right now
are pretty Dang low. Like if you plan a nice date and
you treat them well, you know, open the door for them, ask
questions about them, treat themnicely, don't like act weird.

(01:02:20):
And it's like, what does it meanto like, not be weird?
Like just don't be creepy, Not try to like rush into a
relationship or like talk about those serious things on the
first date. Do a fun activity, get a nice
treat and drop them off and justmake sure that they're safe.
Like, those things go so far forso many women that I know that,

(01:02:42):
like, you would be amazed at howsuccessful you'll be.
And I know a lot of guys can kind of think like, oh, I'm not
tall enough, I'm not handsome enough.
I'm not I'm not rich enough. I know that's another one talked
about online. And it's true that like women
are definitely getting like moreattention then like guys get

(01:03:02):
attention from girls, but most of that attention that the girls
get are unwanted. I'll speak to to my personal
experience. So my, my current girlfriend,
she is beautiful and amazing andshe is always getting people
guys liking her story sliding into her DMS, guys who are
married, who are in relationships, who are single,

(01:03:24):
who are just like liking every single one of her stories.
See, you know, just this week she was showing me this DM from
a guy who from his Instagram stories, he had been in this
relationship with this girl for like 2-3 years.
And he's like signing into her DMS, you know, this last
December and he's like, you're ahottie.
Like when you get back in town, like we should hang out 'cause

(01:03:45):
like my family is going to be around.
And so it's just to say that like, it's true that like women
are getting a lot of attention. I thought I was going to like
strike out. You know, she, she's beautiful.
She's going out on these dates with like these 62 like big
Samoan guys, these football players, all these guys sliding

(01:04:07):
into her DMS and I'm like this 5859 white guy with a mustache
from Idaho. And I'm like, I've got no shot.
But I just started talking to her at some church events.
Nothing crazy, just cracking a couple jokes.
Sometimes I text her but nothingserious.
I'm not trying to rush into anything.

(01:04:28):
And then after an event I just walk up to her and I as part of
the conversation beforehand, this was last January, she had
told me that she had made a resolution that she was not
going to go on any dates this year because all the dates she
had gone on last year had like sucked like just treated
horribly. You know, these like good

(01:04:49):
looking, tall, whatever guys andI just walked up to her, asked
if she'd like to go on a date. Obviously I was like kind of
nervous and I told her I had planned the whole thing out as
part of the conversations beforehand for me talking to
her, she had mentioned she likedthis food or this activity.

(01:05:11):
And so I took note of that and Ihad the date planned out and she
tells me even beforehand she waslike, oh, this is like just like
a friend thing or whatever. And then one on the date and she
kind of started like the effort that I was putting in and like
how genuine I was being. And then obviously we've been
going out since then. And so I think it's a lot easier

(01:05:34):
for for guys to have success, especially with dating in the
church than they would think. It just requires a little bit of
confidence, a little bit of emotional intelligence to be
able to communicate the way thatyou're feeling and humbling
yourself to really like put someeffort into the girl that you're
you're wanting to go on a date with.

(01:05:55):
Amen. Thank you.
And I, and I just want to, for those who may be doubting his
experience here, like wealth, I do do effort and it doesn't
work, blah, blah, blah. Right.
All of the green flags like thatI read from women in the survey
responses talk about actually putting forth effort, right?
Planning dates, asking about thegirl doing things that are

(01:06:16):
related to her interests and herhobbies.
And yeah, so that's it's true. No, I totally agree.
And it can't just be like your version of effort, right?
Like you hit it right in the nose.
Girls literally eat it up. Like if they mentioned the
conversation that they love acaibowls and then that's like what

(01:06:37):
you take them on a date to do and you kind of mention that.
They will remember that. Like they, yeah, that like
sticks out to them. I don't know.
It's been amazing to me. Just like, not like how easy it
is necessarily to like impress agirl who's genuine about those
kinds of things, but like, the standards are so low that like a
bouquet of flowers, paying attention to something that they

(01:06:58):
said in the conversation. Like, it is, it's that it's that
simple in a way. And it's not going to win over
everybody, but a little confidence and a little bit of
effort goes a long way. So real Amen, brother.
Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your time and your
thoughts and your insights that you shared on the podcast.
Is there anything else that you want to share as we wrap this

(01:07:20):
one up? I think I've mostly said
everything I want to. I think I just wished that guys
put in more effort and that theytried to learn a little bit more
about communication. And it's like so general, but I
felt like it would go such a long way.
I know a lot of friends who are girls who are single who are
trying to just find some good guys.

(01:07:40):
So yeah, they're out there. Yeah, they're out there.
Men ask, ask some women out. Be nice, put forth effort.
It'll pay off. We promise.
So yeah, well, thank you everyone for listening.
If you are listening to this, then you've made it all the way
through. We are very grateful for you
listening and we hope that you will follow along on our podcast

(01:08:02):
and in our Instagram. We have some pretty exciting
stuff coming. I mentioned earlier that I am
working on a website right now for latter day stats and it's
going to be pretty cool. So I hope that you guys will
stick around. We got some cool stuff coming.
Thank you for joining us. And yeah, let's keep on
exploring the lifestyles of members of the church.

(01:08:26):
Super interesting, and there's alot that we can learn.
Yeah. Thank you for listening
everyone, and we hope you have agreat rest of your day.