LDS Sexuality: Masturbation, Porn, and Confessing to Bishop with Karina Johns

In this episode, we discuss statistics relating to masturbation, porn, and confessiont to bishops among young Latter-Day Saints.

Follow for more interesting statistics in context!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome everyone to this second episode of the Utah Stats
Podcast. We're so glad you're here.
So technically, this is kind of the fourth episode because I am
not learned in the way of our inthe way of podcasting.
And I have had two instances where I have forgotten to record
the audio. So this is this is the fourth
attempt, but this is the second podcast episode, but it's

(00:23):
rolling now. So we're so excited if you're
listening to this and that meansthat we figured it out.
So we're so glad you're here, and we're so glad that our
friend Karina is here. Welcome, Karina.
Be here too, once again, once. Again, yes, Karina and I tried
to record this and then I textedher right after and said hey.
So I tried to screen record thisbut I forgot to check if it
recorded audio and it does not. And she is so gracious that she

(00:46):
is coming back to do it all overagain and we are very grateful
for her. Well, and the worst part of it
was like at the end of the call,we were both like, like,
hopefully that doesn't happen. Like it's not going to happen.
I bet you were like. You kind of happened.
And I was like. It was so sad, It was so sad.
We manifested it and it it happened, we were sad, but here
we are. Here we are, not this time, not

(01:06):
this time. It's going to work out super
great. We were thankful everyone is
here and listening. Welcome to the podcast.
We encourage you to follow. We have tons of awesome content
lined up on some really interesting topics.
Karina is a friend of mine from a workplace from a few years
ago. We used to work together at a
behavioral treatment center called the Heritage Community
back a few years ago, and it wasa wild time.

(01:29):
We we were both coaches and we worked with youth who were on
the spectrum of some kind and had other kinds of emotional
regulation and behavioral issuesand things.
And it was a great experience, Ithink.
And so, yeah. So Karina, will you tell the
listeners about yourself a little bit, just kind of where
you grew up, your background andjust kind of, you know, the
whole, the whole vibe check, right.

(01:50):
The whole person check here. I'll give everyone the rundown.
So my name is Karina Johns. I live in Utah.
Currently I live in Salt Lake County.
I am an active member of the church, but I did go through a
period of inactivity in the beginning of college, I think,
which is really common, especially for people who are
born into the church, raised in the church.
Usually I feel like everyone goes through like a little
period of inactivity right when they're let free and, you know,

(02:13):
under their parents supervision.I was born and raised in the
church. I grew up in northwestern New
Jersey where I was one of very, very, very few members in my
school environment. And I have a bachelor's degree
in deaf studies with a focus in interpreting, which is a fancy
way of saying I went to school to be a sign language
interpreter. And I currently work as a sign
language interpreter and signingparaprofessional within the

(02:36):
school districts out here in Utah.
And then currently exploring getting a master's degree in
special education and maybe switching towards being a
special education teacher. And because it is just a passion
of mine. And I think that's pretty much
it. That's awesome.
And I'm married. I should say that I am married.
How long? Almost three years.

(02:56):
It'll be three years in July, but we have been together since
2020. So we've been together for about
5 years but married for three. That's awesome.
Very cool. Well, thank you.
We're so glad to have you. What's your favorite or the most
fun sign that is just like superfun to do?
We're like, I love doing the sign where it's funny or like
what's I don't know. I mean, I think a really easy

(03:17):
one. It's a sign for bacon.
I think it's really fun, just it's like a finger gun hand
shape and then you just wiggle it out.
That's awesome. I love that.
I'm gonna start doing that like.Yeah, that's awesome.
I mean, I sign languages especially, well, I can't say
especially American Sign Language.
I think sign languages are so beautiful and they're all deeply
symbolic. If I had to say what like what

(03:37):
my favorite overall sign would be, it's actually the sign for
repentance and it's a beautiful blended what we call an
initialized sign where it takes the sign for change, which is
like 2 little hooks and they go like that.
Sorry if you're listening, you can Google it though.
It takes the sign for change andyou add the R hand shape where
it's showing like a literal process of changing is what

(03:59):
repentance is. That's cool.
A lot of religious and church signing is like deeply symbolic
and I think it's beautiful. So, you know, if you purchase
your LDS and you want to watch General Conference in a
different way, watching it in ASL is super fun.
I interned for the Conference Center briefly while I was in
school, and it was really cool to see kind of the behind the

(04:19):
scenes of all, like the broadcast, the general
leadership things and stuff, seeing the interpreters that
work super hard behind the scenes to make sure that it's
accessible for everyone. It's awesome.
Yeah, that's awesome. I I've actually seen, I saw it
in in the sign language section once a conference when I was on
my mission for conference because my, an elder, my
district knew ASL and he wanted to go and sit and be with the

(04:41):
other deaf folk. And so we went there and so.
Tabernacle. Yeah.
Were you in the Tabernacle? No, really.
Yeah, we were in the Conference Center and they had a screen in
in front of our section that waskind of broadcasting the
interpretation. And it was, it was really fun
because it also couldn't actually just brings new like
life and feeling into the words being said too.
And so and so it was. It was pretty cool.

(05:03):
Oh, and I completely agree. And it's actually really fun now
watching conference in ASL because I know a lot of the
interpreters, a lot of them are professors at Utah Valley
University in their program. And so it's super cool to be
watching it. Like this year, it was really
funny. I was watching it and usually
I'm just, I'll be like, Oh, I know that interpreter.
And I was watching it and I was like, I don't know that

(05:23):
interpreter. And then I was looking and I was
like, he looks so familiar. And I realized I had had a class
with him and I just didn't recognize him because usually he
has a mustache, but he shaved for comfort.
So I was like, oh, I was like, oh, I do know him.
Like it's just I'm not used to seeing him clean shaven so it
was really funny. That's so funny.
That's so funny. Well, awesome.
Let's hop into our topic of today.
So today we're we're going to betalking about some perspectives

(05:46):
on the law of chastity. And a lot of the data that we're
going to reference is taken froma survey we call the LDS
sexuality survey that we here atUtah Stats did or I say we, it's
it's me. It's just.
Behind the scenes. Yeah, yeah, right.
That, that I did. It has about 7 to 800 responses
ish based on the question. And that's what we're going to

(06:07):
be referencing today. So, yeah, for those who are
familiar with our Instagram page, kind of know what the
dealio is, right? We post some stats and then we
talk about it. So that's kind of what we're
going to do today. OK.
So kind of our what was that? I'm very excited.
This is a topic that I can gab about for a long time, something
that I feel super passionate about.
Well, we'll dive in. We'll dive in then the first

(06:28):
topic that we wanted to address is the perspective of sex in
general for members of the church, right?
We often hear things about like purity culture, like, oh, sex is
bad or I'm bad if I have sex, right?
And so I wanted to ask and just get like a pulse of what young
people in the church are kind offeeling about sex right now.
And so, yeah, I said, how much do you agree with the statement?

(06:49):
I believe sex is a good thing, right?
And some good news. About 9899% of members do agree
that sex is a good thing, right?So I think that that shows that
we're kind of headed, headed in a good direction and I think
also provides a good kind of foundation for the rest of this
podcast and the topics, right? So most individuals, the vast,
vast majority do believe that sex is a good thing.

(07:11):
OK. So we're going to go through and
talk about some beliefs of whereis the line prior to marriage,
right? What's OK with in marriage,
right? What are some experiences that
people have had in talking aboutthese things with their Bishop,
right. And that's kind of what we're
going to go through. So first, Karina, I wanted to
ask you and I will share a stat first about how much about sex
you were taught growing up. OK, And to clarify, this isn't

(07:33):
like sex education in school, but, but the question was how
much were you taught about sex growing up, right?
And the options were none at all, a little, a moderate
amount, a lot and a great deal. So 13% said that they received
none, none at all. 40% said thatthey received a little bit and
32% said that they received a moderate amount.
And then 11% and 3% said that they received a lot and a great

(07:57):
deal, respectively. So it sounds like most members
are getting some type of teaching about sex growing up.
So what was your experience growing up and how much were you
talked about sex and how did that kind of influence your
upbringing? Well, I think I think a lot of
the time, like I honestly was surprised with the stats that
that the a little bit wasn't like the percentage wasn't
higher. I do think that like I feel like

(08:19):
maybe my parents generation was not.
I feel like I don't know, I feellet me let me back up, let me
organize my words. I feel like my parents
generation like is probably the last generation of them being
like sex is very taboo. Like I think my grandparents
generation very taboo. You don't talk about it at all.
My parents generation and then Ifeel like I've noticed in

(08:43):
younger generations of parents like it's becoming I don't know
if it's easier to talk about because I I think about like if
I was a parent and I had to do it, I don't think it would be an
easy thing to talk about. I hope that I hope that it would
be like an open conversation, but I think that younger
generations become parents. I think it's become a more open
topic. Me personally, I think if my mom
had her way and I don't want it to be Mexican.

(09:04):
True I dearly love my mom but I think my mom had her way I would
have been opted out of every certification class in school
available so. Why do you think that is?
Because she was trying to protect that.
Do you think in exposes that youwant to be more like?
What's the? What do you think?
I don't know, I think really forher, I think it was more like,
well, I don't want you going in and learning about things that

(09:25):
we don't agree with. Like and like, I mean like my
parents very staunchly oppose abortion.
My mom has feelings about birth control that are based on her
personal experiences that I I disagree with because my
experience with birth control was completely different than
hers. But my mom's pretty anti using
hormonal birth control. Obviously they stand with the
church on their stance with abortion and I'm not really

(09:48):
going to open that can of worms on this podcast.
I feel like it's a very heated topic.
And I, I mean, I feel like I align with the church on it,
like when there are times when it's necessary, but I think my
mom really just didn't want it to be taught in a way that
wasn't in line with the church. And I don't, I don't say that to
fault her, but I think I think it was also just like my mom

(10:09):
didn't want me to be exposed to things and then like go and
search them out myself. But I think backfired on her
because I mean, I did it anyway.And it happened that like so in
my, in my high school, your junior year, you take sex Ed and
she opted me out my junior year.But then they're like, well, you
have to take, I was in like alternate health, but I was in
the senior alternate health because it was just what fit in

(10:31):
my schedule. But then my senior year they're
like, OK, well, you need to takeeither junior alternate health
or sex education. And it, neither of them worked
in my schedule and I wasn't willing to budget on some of my
electives. And so I ended up taking sex
education. And I think it was, it was
actually really informative class and I actually really
enjoyed it. It helped that I had some
friends from like my swim team on there like in that class.

(10:51):
And so it was a really fun class.
I enjoyed the teacher for sure. And so I really enjoyed sex
education. I think honestly, like taking
our kids out of sex education and not giving them like
effective and like, I don't know, not not educating them
about sex is like a huge disservice to them because like
anything, like if we don't know about something, if we don't

(11:14):
have access to it, we are going to seek it out.
And so like for me, I wish that I had had like more sex
education when I was growing up.So I knew like what?
Because like, I think a lot of people think that like sex
education is they're teaching you how to have sex, what types
of sex? And like, like, sure, we talk
about like the different kinds of sex just so we know, but it's
mostly about like contraception,what happens when you become

(11:36):
pregnant, the process of pregnancy, what, what a healthy
relationship looks like, which are all things that fall under
sex education. And I think to not provide that
for kids or seize the opportunities given to them is a
disservice to them. Because then like when they are
entering, like when those students are entering into
relationships or sexual relationships, they don't know

(11:58):
what they're doing. Like I remember like my husband,
for example, when we were dating, we would, we'd go for
drives and talk for hours. And I remember we had, I swear
we had like 1/2 hour conversation, maybe an hour
conversation just about different kinds of
contraceptives and birth control.
He had no idea. Whereas there, because at the
time I had the birth control implant that goes in your arm.
Yeah. And I was like, Oh yeah, feel
it. And he's like, oh, that's weird.

(12:19):
I don't like it. It's a little, a little hormonal
birth control this big and they just insert it into your arm and
you can feel it in your arm. And I don't have it anymore.
But he was like, oh, that's weird.
And he's like, I also didn't know that existed.
And I was like, well, that's crazy.
And in talking to my sister in laws later, my husband has two
older brothers. They're like, oh, we had the
exact same conversation with ourhusbands.

(12:40):
Like, like, I feel like you should know these things.
You should know what types of birth control there are because
I think especially in like a marriage, knowing and having
conversations about what birth control or ways of
contraceptives you want to use like that should be a like a
conversation that involves both partners.
And so I was like, I think birthcontrol is just a really

(13:01):
important thing and having access to sex education is like
so critical. And I think, I think, I, I hope
that younger generations of parents within the church are
more supportive of going into classes and education like that,
even though it can be a hard topic.
I can't imagine having a conversation like that with with
a teenager. But I hope that we see a gradual

(13:25):
increase in people who are willing to have their kids go
into sex education, even if theythemselves can't.
They don't feel comfortable doing it as a parent, like a lot
of them to go to school and do that.
Or I think like there are there are resources through like the
state that like you can get access to different kinds, I
don't know, different education about it.
So yeah, for sure. That's fair response.

(13:48):
Yeah. So thank you for that.
So, so one thing that I, I hear a lot from the DMS on my page
and such, and I want to ask if you kind of resonate with this,
is that a lot of people say thatthey, they were educated about
what they shouldn't do in regards to sex, but weren't
educated about how to prepare for marital sexuality and how

(14:10):
to, you know, right. So what was kind of your
experience in that regard? Like were you told a lot like,
hey, Karina, don't, don't do this, don't do this, don't do
this. But we are going to tell you
about, you know, how to actuallyenjoy a marriage or like how to
be safe and that kind of thing, right?
Or like. I really don't feel like my
parents talked a lot about it. Hold on, my cat is trying to

(14:31):
break in. You are a goblin.
You are supposed to be spending time with dad right now
actually. I'm going to leave the door
cracked so she can get out if needed.
Nice. We would like to introduce
everyone to Karina's cat. I know, here we go.
I have two cats. This is Tofu.
She's my younger cat and she is certifiably A goblin.

(14:52):
And then my other cat, Petunia, is rolled up in a little
croissant. Yeah, she's the one.
Do you want to come get her? Well, I let her in because she
was throwing her body at the door to restrain her earlier and
she still was fighting. Nice.
Came and collected her. Nice.
I know you should just play withher.

(15:12):
She's obsessed with me. I am the preferred cat parent of
at least Petunia or at least tofu.
Petunia is neutral with me. OK, what was the question?
How to prepare for marriage? I really don't think my parents
told me much of anything. I don't know.
But I think it's also because myparents knew without me
explicitly telling them. But I think my parents knew that

(15:32):
I had been experimenting like beforehand.
I mean, it's but it started in high school.
And so I think they, I think they knew and were like, had
seen, yeah, seen me grow. And we're like, I don't really
have to have this conversation with you.
Not that my parents were OK withwhat I was doing.
They were definitely not. But when it came to
transitioning to marriage, I don't think, I don't think my

(15:53):
parents said anything to me about it.
I mean, with my sister getting married, who I mean, she, my
sister identified as asexual like her whole life until she
met her husband, who actually I met her husband.
And I was like, you need to meetmy sister.
And he's been the only person she's ever been attracted to
ever. And I think there's a label for
that, but I'm not really sure where.
It's like you have you have to have like a deep bond with
someone to feel romantically interested in them, something

(16:15):
like that. I wonder if they had
conversations with her leading up to leading up to her wedding.
I'm not really sure, but I mean,I know.
So my husband and I did. We took a marriage prep class at
BYU, called anxiously engaged. And in all honesty, we we did it
for two reasons. 1A good friend of ours who had served in my

(16:39):
husband's same mission and then she married one of my husband's
mission companions. He it was her capstone for her
marriage and family degree and she was teaching it.
And so we're like, oh, we're going to support her.
And then it also gave us a discount on our marriage
license. And so we took, we took
anxiously engaged. And I think that like, I mean, I
mean that I think is a good resource for people who are

(16:59):
getting ready to get married where it talks about like that
transition into marriage. It is, I believe it is a course
like developed through the church.
And so I think it is specifically designed with the
idea that like there hasn't beenlike not, I wouldn't say like,
like physical intimacy, but there hasn't been sexual
intimacy, Yeah, between them. And so it's like how to develop

(17:19):
that? And so I can hear him like
trying to wrangle her outside. That's so funny.
And so, I mean, I thought it wasa really great course.
I think we took it. So we took it at BYU and I want
to say there were like six or seven other couples in it.
And I remember there is one section that's about
transitioning to sexual intimacywith partner.

(17:42):
And they also talked about, theybriefly touched on like hormonal
or like talked about birth control.
And I had already been on birth control for years at that point.
Yeah. I don't remember like raising my
hand and being like, well, like if you haven't started already
and your wedding is like impending, you need to get on
birth control now because it changes all these things about
your body. And I would hate for you to like

(18:03):
not fit in your wedding dress because sometimes you gain
weight to be be dealing with super crazy mood swings or have
horrible acne like do now. So like you're a little bit used
to it. Or it's like, if you start it
three days before your wedding, it's not going to be effective.
Had never heard that before. And then we're horrified when
you said that. We're like, wait, what?
Yes, yes. And I remember there were like

(18:25):
probably 3 or 4 of the girls that like looked up and were
like, what? Like, and I was like, part of me
was like, how do you not know? How do you not know?
And so I'm like, you can't just,you know, go pick up the pill
like 3 days before your wedding and expect it to be effective.
Like it's hormones, it changes your body like having for you
gain 10 lbs and not fit in your wedding dress because of your
birth control or like you get horrible acne before your

(18:48):
wedding. Like I would hate for that to
happen to you. And I just remember being like,
I feel like I really need to share this because it wasn't
talked about as much where they were like, you know, these are,
these are some options. And I was like, let's talk about
them like. You saved some weddings that
day. I know, hopefully, hopefully.
I'm sure every single couple hasa kid already I would guess.
Yeah. Or they're divorced, No.

(19:09):
Or that. Wow.
That's cynical. I hope they're not.
I hope they're all doing well. Any of them.
Yeah. But I mean, I think that that
was actually a really good course.
I think honestly the most beneficial thing from that
course for my husband and I werereally just like about how to
maintain our relationship when living together because like we
were really inseparable for, youknow, the two years leading up

(19:31):
to our wedding, like in meeting,becoming best friends, kind of
dating, actually dating for likethe two years leading up to
that. So ours like what we really
benefited what from was like howto continue to like deepen our
relationship and our love for each other, whether after
marriage, cuz like, I don't know, I don't, I feel like some
people are like, oh, it's just easy cuz you live together and
like, it makes you hate them, you know?

(19:52):
Yeah, it gets harder actually. Yeah, it actually gets harder
cuz like what if you hate the way they brush their teeth?
Yeah, right. Right.
But I mean, my husband and I were super, super close.
So I feel like our transition towards marriage was actually
like super easy. That's good.
But some people I I feel like you have a really hard time
transitioning into marriage and people intimacy.
Speaking of transition, actually, that brings us to our

(20:13):
next statistic I want to share. I asked married couples, how was
your transition into marriage essentially, right.
So and specifically, how was your transition into a sexual
relationship? Was it rough?
Was it not rough? Was it like, you know, like, how
was it right? And so here's kind of the
breakdown. Women understandably had a
rougher time transitioning into marriage.
OK, 33% ish, right. So about 1/3 of women say that

(20:39):
that that they had a rough time transitioning into marriage and
only about 17% or 18% of men saythat they had a rough time
transitioning into marriage. So the majority didn't, but
there's still a good chunk who did.
In your experience and understand your conversations
and just, you know, and your thoughts, what do you think kind

(21:01):
of can contribute to a married couple having a rough transition
into a sexual relationship? Especially after having been
told, hey, don't have sex beforemarriage and then all of a
sudden being told, hey, go for it, You know, great, do it,
right? Especially with with these stats
kind of leaning more towards women having more unfavorable

(21:22):
transitions I think. I think, I feel like, I feel
like it. I think it's easy for men to
transition to marriage because Ithink by nature, and I mean this
could be a complete generalization, but I feel like
men are horny. Men are horny like they are like
let's go. I think for women, I feel like
like it is a completely new thing.

(21:43):
Like especially like sex in general, like that's a really
big thing. And like, I feel like
especially, I feel like especially LDS women, I don't
want to generalize and see that modesty is for covering up
because I firmly believe that that is not the case.
But like, there is a lot if you are, you know, really strictly
following modesty, like you aren't showing your body a lot.

(22:03):
And to be able to like be naked with someone for the first time
can be really, really embarrassing, can be really like
overexposing. I mean, I have I have many
friends. I can only back up and say it
was not difficult for my husbandand I at all.
But that's also because, you know, my husband and I have such
AI mean not, I'm not trying to brag about my relationship, but
we have such my husband and I have a such a strong bond.

(22:26):
And I think it's from us dating a lot longer than is normal,
normal for this area in Utah. Usually it's like you see less
than a year of dating and they're getting married and
engaged and stuff like that. My husband and I were together
for almost two years when we gotmarried.
And so our transition was super easy because I was like, you've
seen my whole soul, like you might as well see my body now.

(22:46):
And I mean, obviously, like we pushed boundaries to leading it
like after we were engaged because like, I mean, they talk
about it, it is hard. It's super hard once you're
like, well we are going to get married.
Like. Like this, it's super hard, but
like I can imagine, I mean, I have many friends who are like,
it is it was really hard for us to transition.
Like I have a couple friends whohave said, you know, on our

(23:08):
wedding night, like we didn't have sex like, and I think
that's fine. Like I think it's a journey and
a process for everyone. And like people shouldn't feel
bad if they haven't or they don't.
They choose not to have sex Like, and I think, I think I can
imagine that would be why some women struggle more with that
transition because maybe some women aren't ready for all of

(23:30):
that. Like it can feel really
overexposing and vulnerable, butthen they feel like they have to
because there's like that the title partner of the wedding
night. And it's like, oh, well, this is
what I have to be doing. So it's like I'm putting, I'm
pushing myself past what I'm comfortable with because I feel
like I have to, not because the spouse is pushing it or
anything, or they feel like theycan't talk to their spouse about

(23:52):
it is what I imagine. And I, I can understand why that
would be a really hard transition.
But like I want, I want listeners to know if you're
coming up, like if you're engaged now, you're coming up on
a wedding or you're thinking about it for the future.
Like it you, you do not have to to have sex on your first, on
your first nightmare. Like let me tell you, your
wedding day is like the most exhausting day of your life.

(24:14):
Like it is so busy, it is so chaotic.
There's so much stress, like all.
Your mind is blooded and. My wedding day is take a nap
because you've been you've been so stressed.
It's so busy. You are talking to all these
different people. You have so much going on and
like you're so brave by the end of it.
So like, like my husband and I, like we, I mean, we were just

(24:36):
like, I just wanna lay down likeI'm tired.
And so like, if there are peoplethat are coming up on, you know,
getting married, like it should be an open conversation with
your partner, your fiance, or even someone that, like you guys
are talking seriously about getting engaged and getting
married. It should be an open
conversation about like the expectations or even setting

(24:58):
boundaries where it's like, I don't know if I like just
letting them know. Being on the same page is like,
if I feel like I'm not ready, then it's OK.
And it's not like I don't like you.
It's not that I don't want to. It's not that I'm not attracted
to you. It's just a lot and you
shouldn't feel bad about that. I have many friends who are
like, I just, it was too much. And so I, we, we had to take it
really slow and effective relationships.

(25:20):
You should be able to have the conversation, have the respect,
have the love to understand. Like maybe, maybe that's not
something that will happen that first night, but that doesn't
mean it will never happen. Yeah, it's true.
And for some people, going from absolutely nothing, you know,
like perhaps no more than kissing all the way to
penetration is like. That's.
A overwhelming that. That's a massive.

(25:42):
Jump that. That's wild, you know, and and I
mean, I feel like we naturally are kind of at least like in my
mind, I kind of I kind of compartmentalized things into,
you know, sex versus non sexual stuff, right?
And so I was like, OK, well, youknow, this is what's this is
what comes after kissing, right?And right, right.

(26:03):
And, and to clarify, sex, sex does not equal penetration,
right? There is, there is, there is so,
so, so much beyond that. And honestly, it's so much
better when I feel like you don't focus on that, you know
what I mean? I feel like for so long, this
kind of male centric view of sexhas kind of dominated most of,
you know, thought and behavior and, and relationships, right?

(26:24):
And so right. And so, I mean, I think you're
right. You know, there are a lot of
couples who understandably are too exhausted on their wedding
night. And, you know, it's like, hey,
you have your whole marriage ahead of you.
You know what I mean? You have tomorrow.
Yeah. You have the rest of the week.
You have the rest of your life. You know, I think, I think, I
mean, my heart goes out to people who like have rough

(26:46):
experiences on their wedding night because they felt like
this is what they had to do because it's what expected of
them. You do not have to do anything
that you are not comfortable with on your wedding night.
Yeah. And like a healthy relationship
will support that. And I also feel like for the 18%
or whatever of the men who had ahard time transitioning, I

(27:09):
really do wonder, like if it is,you know, you're so excited,
you're so nervous. Anxiety about it?
Yeah, that you like can't get anerection.
Yeah. And I feel like that would be
that would be really hard. Yeah.
Where you're like, no, I promise.
Like I want to and I don't know what my body's doing and I don't
understand and all these things.And also just like I do feel
like there is with going back tosex education, I feel like there

(27:32):
is a disparity, especially amongst women, maybe amongst
men. I can't speak for men because
I'm not a man, but I do think there's a disparity in just
knowing our own bodies and our anatomy and what feels true.
And so like, I can see that like, you know, if you are
sexually inexperienced going into marriage and you, you like,

(27:53):
you know, it might just be easy to be like, well, sex is done
when he's done, you know, so with.
PSA is not true. I know it is not true, like sex
is supposed to be enjoyed and pleasurable for both people and
I feel like if your partner isn't willing or doesn't know
how to, I mean well isn't if they're not willing to do the

(28:16):
work for it to be enjoyable for both people, Red flag.
Big red flag. But if they don't know how to,
then that can be a journey for both of you.
You know? It should be.
That's why I think, like they always tell us growing up, sex
is a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful journey for two
people, especially because I feel like the male sexual
experience is very linear. Like we start here, we end here,

(28:39):
boom, women. It is like a roller coaster and
like figuring that out and knowing it for yourself I think
is a journey. And it can be really beautiful
and really intimate for a coupleto figure that out.
And it's so much more rewarding when you do.
That's true. I agree.
I agree. One thing you mentioned that I
wanted to kind of segue into is a lot of people intermarriage,
not understanding their own bodies and not knowing just how

(29:02):
the sexual response cycle works,right?
One thing that has been interesting is there are is
there are a lot of kind of sex educators and even within the
church who who have been kind ofalluding to encouraging women
who are pushing marriage to masturbate in some sense to kind
of learn themselves and learn what they like.
So they can communicate that andshare that with that their

(29:22):
husband, right? Because I mean, I mean, if, if a
wife has a hard time understanding her, then the then
the husband definitely won't understand how to please.
And he's like, he's like, I've never seen a woman before.
I have no idea what I'm doing. Right.
Yeah, right. And so, so I wanted to ask just
in general, right, what do most Latter Day Saints think about

(29:45):
masturbation? Right.
I think especially years ago it,it, it was more explicitly
talked about in conference and Ithink in handbooks and things
like that. And now it's, it's a little bit
less so. And so I wanted to kind of share
some statistics here. I asked about 720 young Latter
Day Saints, mostly living in Utah and between the ages of 18
and 30, what they've thought about masturbation.

(30:07):
I asked them is it morally wrongto masturbate as a single person
specifically Right. 31.4% strongly agree that it is
morally wrong to masturbate. 28.5 agree.
So added up that's about what like 59% ish right?
Who who believe it's wrong? And then about 20% were neutral

(30:28):
on the subject and then about 19%.
OK so almost 1/5 of young Latterday Saints disagree that it is
morally wrong to masturbate. So, so I wanted to ask where do
you kind of fall in your agreement of this?
And also and also, is it contextbased?
Does does it change when you're single or when you're in a
relationship? And if so, how?

(30:49):
Yeah, I, I mean, I think I fall under, I like to consider myself
very sex positive. Do you think that there is a lot
of nuance behind a lot of thingswhen it comes to sex?
I think I fall under it is all about context.
I think as a single person, likethey're, I especially like young
teenagers, like you're going through puberty, you're
experiencing hormones. I think it's completely natural

(31:11):
to experiment because you're figuring out your body.
It's a, there's a lot of stuff going on.
And so I don't think that like as a teenager, like trying it
out a couple times, I don't think that that's morally wrong.
I think it is something that is habitual, something that is an
addiction, something that we're seeking out pornography for.

(31:31):
I think that is when it becomes kind of a moral issue.
But then again, I say that very lightly.
Like, I don't think that becausesomeone did that they are wrong
or they are a bad person. Like, I don't think that at all.
Like, you know, what you do in your life is your choice.
But I think especially as someone who is approaching
marriage or someone who is married, I really don't think
that masturbation is like an issue with like, but it is all

(31:56):
dependent on your intent. So like people who are, and I
say this especially to women, people who are approaching
marriage, I highly encourage to like get a mirror and figure out
what's going on down there, especially if you never have.
Because like, like I said, thereis so much of like a roller
coaster that goes into the female experience.
Knowing what feels good and whatdoes not feel good or what hurts

(32:18):
is important to share with your partner so it can be an
enjoyable experience for both ofyou.
And then within marriage, I think that honestly, it's not a
problem. I think that if it once again,
if it's like you're masturbating, but you are, I
would say not being open with your partner about it or you are
seeking out pornography to do so, then I think it would be a

(32:39):
problem. But like if you have open
communication with your spouse about it, like I think things
like even and I was going back to our marriage prep class, I
was actually really, I'm not like surprised in a bad way, but
I was actually really interestedthat they had mentioned Co
masturbation as something to tryas a couple after you get
married, which I was actually really surprised about because I

(33:00):
don't think I'd ever heard in a like in a church context
encouragement towards masturbation.
So that was a really interestingthing that I and that was like
probably the first time I had heard that so.
Together, right? Didn't know what Co masturbation
was but like to hear it in like from a church supported thing.
Actually really interesting and I was like.
For those who don't know, what is Co?

(33:22):
Masturbation, let's give contextto that.
So Co masturbation is when you you are masturbating but the
partners are doing it for each other, if that makes sense.
Is that is that clear? Yeah, yeah.
You're masturbating together or you are masturbating for each
other if. That makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah.
There, there. There is another word for it
called mutual masturbation as well.

(33:42):
Some may be. See, and I mislabeled it again.
We talked about it in our first run and I.
You're totally wine. Labeled it once again, no.
You're going to sell the same thing.
I just want to make sure everyone knew what we were
talking about. Like what?
Like I have no idea what this mean.
Yeah. And so honestly, for couples, I
really do encourage that even like if you don't feel ready on
your wedding night to have penetrative sex, like even even
mutual masturbation, I think is is a really easy.

(34:04):
I wouldn't say easy because it still is really overexposing,
but I think that like. Gradual transition.
Yeah, a very gradual transition.Like if you don't feel ready for
oral sex, like even something, Ifeel like it is like a little
step back. Yeah.
You're still exploring, You're still having a sexual experience
with them, but you aren't going,I don't know, going.
I guess you're just familiarizing yourself with each

(34:26):
other's bodies, which I think isa really natural step for a lot
of people who just get married. And so I think within marriage,
there's just a lot of context with it.
So it's like, I think once again, if there's like secrecy
or like the involvement and use of pornography, then I feel like
there's a little bit more iffiness with me because I think
that's when I would feel hurt asa spouse.

(34:46):
Like if that was what's happening within my marriage, I
would feel hurt. I would feel a little betrayed.
But like, I think it's, it's a really, really beneficial thing.
Like, and one thing that comes to mind is like for
transparency, like my husband and I are are actively trying to
conceive. And so, and so I think about
like, and we have many friends who are having babies right now.
And I think honestly, like afteryou have a baby, like there is a

(35:07):
lot of stuff going on. And so like, you know, it would
be painful or it's not medicallyrecommended or like you're just
tired. Like, I think that is a really
easy way to continue to have like a sexual relationship if
you're not physically. And once again, do whatever, do
whatever you think is, is right.I think when it what it comes

(35:28):
down to for me, especially with sexual relationships, is it all
comes down to your your consent.Consent and your consent in
marriage is still a thing. There is still consent, yes.
And that goes back to our wedding night thing.
It is all about consent. Like if you're doing stuff and
you're not comfortable, you should be able to and you should
like you should be able to tell them that you're not comfortable

(35:49):
and there should be the expectation that it would stop.
Yeah, no one owns the other is very true.
And this is also something I'm really passionate in the church
because, and I say this because I passed like the Billboard for
the Secret Lives of Mormon Wivesshow.
And then I saw a good sponsored ad for it on my Instagram today
where they're like, there's an attitude in the church that
women are supposed to be submissive.
And I was like, I do not know where you got that idea because

(36:13):
I have never felt or never been taught that women are submissive
to men in this church. And I've, I've, I've been in
this church for almost 26 years and I have never felt that.
So like, like, I feel like, I feel like we need to correct
that where we are right now, like there we are equal partners
in this and one person doesn't get to decide when we have sex

(36:36):
and when we don't. And if we stop and if we go,
that's not a thing. And that's not healthy in sexual
relationships. It should be both partners
consenting, going and doing things that both partners are
comfortable with. Point blank, period.
Take take a guess at the statistic.
This is one of my favorite things to do is to quiz my

(36:56):
guests and things I should have quizzed Spencer on our first
episode, but it's OK he. Probably would have gotten all
of them right. Maybe, maybe he's pretty smart.
Like running the test in his head actively.
Like, he's so smart. Yeah, right.
He is so smart. If you ever watched episode one,
please do. It's a it's a very different
vibe and topic, but it very, very, very interesting.
Yes. And I have, I have a great

(37:17):
relationship with Spencer. He is.
I'm actually married to my best friend and I think, I think
we're like distantly related or something.
My mom's maiden name is Clark and so.
Really. Yeah, when they started dating,
we like looked it up and I thinkwe're like distantly related or
something like that. That's awesome.
So guess what percentage of Latter Day Saints believe it is
morally wrong to masturbate together in marriage?

(37:39):
How many believe that it is wrong to do it together within
marriage? 18 to 30 living in Utah, active
and I believe less active are included in this analysis.
Let me see. No, it's just active.
OK, just active members. I feel like, I mean, I feel like
when it comes to these stats, I tend to guess higher than it is
because I, I have this idea thatlike, it's Utah and they're
like, yeah. So I'm like.

(38:00):
Yeah, it's freaky, bro. 45% of them think it's wrong or
something like that. Yeah, but I feel like often
times the stats surprise me where I'm like, oh, we actually
are like. Yeah, we're pretty good.
I was like you guys, we're a little bit more open with our
beliefs and stuff like that bad way, but like you guys, you guys
get it the. One, what's interesting is his
super briefly 11 debate that arose on on the page recently,

(38:22):
was Utah members different than other members?
And if so, how? So now briefly, I'm doing a
brief survey that is that is meant to measure members all
across the United States and group them into different, you
know, regions, right? And I don't have a lot of sample
size in like the East or the South or you know, it's about
like 40, maybe 100 in those regions, right.
But so far there there's pretty much no difference in attitudes

(38:47):
towards sexuality between like Utah and the other.
However, the only difference that that I have seen is that
those who were born and raised internationally do seem to be
much more conservative compared to those born and raised in
Utah. Is very interesting.
Yeah, right. Because I feel like a lot of the
times I hear things like, well, internationally, you know, like

(39:09):
in other countries, you know, wedon't sexualize this or, you
know, like we're. More.
Open up. You know, Utah tends to lean
more open to things a little bitmore quick word liberal, right?
Those born internationally are more strict in those regards.
Just just an interesting thing I'd share.

(39:29):
But so the answer to the question I asked it is about
27.2% of. See, I like almost doubled it.
Yeah, right. 27.2 do believe that it is morally wrong to
masturbate tailored marriage. So you and you mentioned that in
marriage there's you know, there's a lot of context that is
important to two factor and so so I want to ask this next

(39:49):
question. Is it morally wrong to
masturbate when your partner isn't in the mood for sex?
I think that that is a nuanced question and I think it really
depends on on the couple and also like if.
I don't know, like I I try to imagine the situation in my own
marriage and I admit that this has never happened in my

(40:10):
marriage, but I would think thatlike if I'm not in the mood for
sex and my husband were to be like, well, I am really like,
like if you were to be like, well, is it OK if I masturbate
that asking then I'm fine. Like I would be fine with that.
But if it was like out of spite where it's like, well, I'm not
in the mood, I'm not really feeling it today, then being

(40:30):
like, well, fine, I'm gonna go do it.
Then I would feel like that is not I would feel like that is
hurtful. But then again, doing anything
out of spite sexually is it is hurtful.
So I, I think that it's all kindof about context and about the
situation. If, if it was done out of spite,
then I'd be like, that is that is wrong.
Like, because that's not how youtreat your partner.

(40:51):
You don't do things out of spite, especially sexually.
You don't do things out of spiteor like out of anger towards
your partner. Like that's not healthy.
That's not conducive with like with, well, it's not conducive
with like the way that God wantsus to have our relationships.
We are not meant to like we are.We are meant to respect our
partners. We are meant to be equal in

(41:12):
this. And so if we're doing things out
of anger and out of spite, that is not, that doesn't invite the
spirit into our marriage. Gotcha.
OK, OK. So what percentage do you think?
I believe it's OK to masturbate when the other partner is on the
mood. Like OK or is there like it's
right? Is there not further like it's

(41:32):
yes or no? It's yes or no.
So I asked, do you believe that this is morally wrong to do in
marriage? Then the item was actuating when
the other partner is not in the mood.
So. So how many believe it is not
morally wrong? Or in other words, how many
believe that it is morally acceptable?
Well, maybe I'll flip it around and say it's 40%.
That's maybe I'll be like, well,I missed the mark with 40% on

(41:54):
the first time, so maybe it's 40% say it's fine.
Yeah, about 44, yeah. Like look at me go guy.
There you go. Yeah.
So about 44%. So pretty much like roughly 50%
of members believe that it's OK and about the other half don't,
right. So it's, yeah, it's quite split.
And I imagine it's because of that new ones you said.
So I probably should have asked him like, hey, is it OK if it's

(42:17):
done out of spite, like with consent or like, you know,
whatever. So yeah.
Well, because I can see how that's misconstrued, where it's
like, well, they're not in the mood, so they're just gonna go
do it. Yeah.
Where it's all about like the ads.
It's a replacement instead of like.
Yeah, and it's also like, I think back to like mentioning
like post pregnancy, like there's a lot of stuff going on.
Maybe like honestly, well, like doctors will recommend there's a

(42:39):
certain amount like X amount of time post childbirth, whether
it's vaginal or caesarean that you should probably avoid having
sex just to be safe and to heal.But many people don't don't
follow it. And that's fine.
Like it's whatever you feel comfortable with.
Just there could be health complications.
But even thinking about that once again, where it's like, you
know, maybe I'm not in the mood or like maybe I just like I

(43:01):
could be in the mood, but also it, there's pain, you think
thinking of that like I, I wouldunderstand being like, you know,
like I'm not physically able right now or it's painful for
me. Like I'd be OK with that if it's
like a mutual agreement as as a partnership.
For sure. Sure.
OK, thank you. Thank you.
I wanted to ask and dive into the topic of pornography now a

(43:25):
little bit, which I know is one of your favorites too.
I know is it is a good one. Yeah, Karina loves porn.
No, I'm just kidding. Sorry.
I'm just kidding. Sorry.
I just had to do that. Just kidding.
No. So slander.
Yeah, Slander. Sorry.
Report me. I did.
Not consent to this. OK, so most letter to Saints do
believe that pornography is morally wrong, right?

(43:47):
And let me actually pull it up right now because, huh, the
majority. But I'm going to find the actual
statistics, so I'm not, you know, I was.
Like give the number. Heresies right now, so yeah.
You need to be spreading truths over here.
Yes, yes, yes. OK, let's do that.
So yeah, So about 90% believe it's morally wrong to view

(44:09):
pornography, right. So the vast majority do believe
it is wrong to view pornography,right.
And there was a slight adjustment though when when we
asked is it morally acceptable to view it together as a married
couple in marriage with both consenting, right.
So I wanted to ask your perspective on on that.

(44:30):
Do you think it is morally wrongif two people are consenting to
watch porn together? 16% of active members do believe
that it is morally acceptable towatch pornography together
during marriage, assuming both consent of course.
So what's your perspective on those kinds of situations?
Is that more acceptable in your opinion?
Or, you know, what's your take? You know, I want, I want to

(44:52):
preface it with like, if, even if I say that I don't think
something is more like acceptable, I'm not judging
people that do like what you do in your life is your choice.
And I am not here to judge people for my for my marriage
and my relationship. I would not, I would not think
that that is acceptable. I mean, my husband and I talked
about this yesterday where like,because we had we had done the

(45:12):
podcast and then failed that recipes, that iteration of the
podcast. Yep, we were talking about that.
And he's like, I just like both of us have, have pretty strong
feelings against pornography andit's for a multitude of
different reasons. And it's not necessarily
entirely tied to our religious beliefs.
I have. I mean, both of us have had our
own individual struggles with pornography at different points

(45:33):
throughout our lives, particularly mostly as
teenagers, because I think that's when most people either
struggle with it or view it as when they're younger or when
they're older and wanting and they're curious.
I actually, I actually have the statistic on that.
So it's a place. That maybe I'm wrong.
No, you're right. Oh am I.
What percentage of men do you think indicated that they watch

(45:56):
pornography as a teenager? I'd say it's probably a high
percentage. I would go like 70, sixty, 70%.
77% of men indicated that they had viewed porn as a as a
teenager and about 30% of women.So almost 1/3 of women indicated
that as a teenager they had intentionally viewed porn.

(46:17):
I feel like, and I feel like it was shocking to me because I
think I remember when you postedthis and I remember being a
little bit, I remember this caused some discourse on your
page. Did.
And I think we had in our, in our group chat with another
friend that we had worked with, we had a discussion about it.
But I was actually surprised at the women's number because I
felt like it was fairly low really, because I think, I mean,
and I, and I think there's a multitude of reasons for this,

(46:39):
but I was actually surprised by that because I feel like a lot
more women look at porn than than is said, you know, and
maybe maybe it's just because they're not explicitly seeking
out like like video content or like actual content.
I know that it caused a huge disruption about like, what if
they're smart and everything like that?

(47:00):
Yeah, yeah, right. And like, I mean, I do, I do, I
don't know, I just felt like it was really low.
But I also think that maybe for women, like I think in society,
and I think Spencer touched on this a little bit in his women,
women in society are incredibly sexualized.
And so I think like even popularmedia that has a lot of like, I
mean, even now I feel like full frontal female nudity.

(47:23):
Richardson. Just kidding.
Leave Bridgeton out of this. OK, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. No.
You're fine. You're fine.
I love me some Bridgerton. No.
Don't. Nice.
I love Bridgerton, but but even still, I'm getting into getting
into talking about outed, but I feel like even like even just in
movies, there's there's a lot more female nudity.

(47:46):
Like things that come to mind are like even even movies that
won Oscars this year. Like I, I was curious.
I hadn't seen many of the moviesthat won Oscars this year.
So I was like, what is the Nora even about?
And it was, I was like, Oh my goodness, there's so much nudity
in this of nudity. And, and same with what is it
pretty thing that won an Oscar last year, tons of nudity.
And, and so I think there is a lot of like female sexualization

(48:09):
in media. And so for, for people who
consume pornography, I would, I would assume that you're
watching whichever person that you would be like attracted to,
whether it's the man or the woman or whatever, you're
usually watching them. You're not watching the other
person. And so I think it, for people
who are attracted to women, it'seasy to watch pornography
because it's very normal to see that in media.

(48:31):
But I think for women that and like the the female body
beautiful. We love it.
Good job, good job women men's bodies like and male genitalia.
I'm so sorry gross. Hey, it's I don't think, I don't
think it's necessarily like as. It's not aesthetic.
It's not as aesthetic. And so, like, I think if you are
like sexually inexperienced and you haven't seen male genitalia

(48:54):
before, if you go to porn, you're like, what is that like?
What I'm hearing is men's bodiesare oppressed and I think we
need more bodies. I'm just kidding.
Be ashamed of yourselves. But I do this like for women,
like it might be just a little bit more jarring to watch
pornography just because of you're like, yeah.

(49:16):
So I mean, I still am very surprised by how in love with
the women's number is so. How many, how many men do you
think indicated that they have viewed porn in the last year?
And again, active members, Yeah.Part of me is still like, it's
probably high, but then again, it might be active members.
So I know there are a lot of people where it's like, you

(49:37):
know, it was something that I did in my teen years, but now,
now I don't. But I don't know.
Yeah. I don't know 20%. 53% of men
indicate that that that they have viewed it in the last year.
Once again, not shocking, I meanthat that reaction was crazy,
but like. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but like, once again, it'snot surprising.

(49:57):
And also it's I don't think it'ssomething that we need to shame
people for, you know? Like, I know here on this
podcast, we're not advocating for shaming anyone for anything.
But like, but like, that is, I mean, I guess that's about what
I would expect is like, because like within the last year, that
could be this week, that could be 10 months, you know?
Yeah, but it's different for everyone.
Yeah, yeah. So I think for me, what was what

(50:19):
was most interesting is that when things aren't talked about
and people don't want want to talk about a lot of these
things, it's easy to feel isolated and alone and like
you're the only one who deals with this, right.
But I mean, if this statistic isaccurate, then that means that
every other man that you know, you were sitting with in soccer
meeting has viewed point in lastyear, right?

(50:39):
Is on their own journey and is, you know, right, You know, you
are very much in good company, you know what I mean?
Yes, and I think especially thatwith that with women, I would
say, I mean the fact that I was shocked that the number was so
low. I feel like pornography viewing
is often seen as like a man's a man, like a male dominated thing
because people like men are pigs.
They're all watching sex all thetime.

(51:00):
But yeah, right. And I think for that it can make
women who do struggle with usageof porn.
Feel even worse? I played them alone and I think
and like my husband and I were talking about this yesterday
where like I think it really is like it is my belief that when
we are struggling with certain things as far as like breaking,
I don't want to call them the rules, but like breaking things

(51:23):
that we're like doing things that we were asked.
Not misaligned with our values. Kind of.
Yes, like doing something we know we shouldn't.
So like, I think that it is truly like Satan, like that
feeling of isolation and alone and of loneliness.
Like that idea where it's like, you know, you do something, you
feel bad about it. It's like, I can't believe that
you're the only one that's doingthat.

(51:44):
It can't be forgiven. Everyone, yeah, everyone is like
going to be so disappointed in you because you're the only one
struggling with it. That is straight from Satan.
He wants you to feel alone because it keeps you in those
cycles. He wants you to feel like you
can't repent. He wants you to feel like you
are a bad person because that's how he like can completely take

(52:04):
over your life and your idea of yourself worth.
And like, I mean, my favorite, my favorite favorite favorite,
like principle of the gospel is we are, we are that we might
have joy and like if we are engaging in things or like just
feeling like we like, we don't deserve to be happy.
We don't like because I did this, I am alone and no one

(52:25):
knows my struggle that is not ofGod.
Like that feeling and that belief is not of God.
God wants us to know that we arenever alone.
He wants us to know that He loves us infinitely regardless
of what we do. He wants us to know that like we
can always turn to Him and we can always come back to Him and
nothing, nothing we do ever disqualifies us from that.

(52:46):
Oh my goodness. Big yawn.
It never disqualifies us from his love.
Sorry. There's we overlooked the pool
at our apartment complex and there's some kids walking on
like the pool cover and I'm like, please don't die.
Nice, that's so funny. Like please don't fall in and
drown. Well, you're about to watch
someone drown on on the podcast.Right now I'm like, there's

(53:08):
probably going to be effects from our from our management
tomorrow being like, please don't do this.
Please watch your kids. Yep, anyway.
Thank you for that great sense. Like I never want.
Yeah. Like for people who are
struggling. And because I know this feeling
so, so deeply, especially throughout my adolescence, my
early college years, that feeling of like I am the only

(53:29):
any person that messes up and keeps messing up.
And like, Oh my goodness. Like my friends would think I'm
like terrible. Like if they knew like what I do
or all these things. When in actuality my friends
probably have struggled with thesame, excuse me, with the same
things. Your friends probably struggle
with the same things you do right now honestly.
Like. I would say.
And statistically, that's probably true.

(53:50):
Yeah, you are not alone. And like, even if you're on the
in the process of repenting, like you don't, you don't walk
that path alone ever, point blank, period.
And that has been something thatI've drawn like that I have a
really deep testimony of it's like we do not have to suffer in
this life alone because that is not why we are here.
Men are that they might have joy.

(54:11):
We are not here to suffer. We are here to learn.
And that is through our trials, like we're here to learn, but
that like our ultimate purpose, like we don't have, we don't
believe in a deity that wants topunish us.
Like he wants to live and be like have vibrant, beautiful
lives with happiness. They don't.
He doesn't want us to wallow, tofeel alone, to walk alone, to

(54:32):
feel ashamed. He doesn't want that.
Like he. He is infinitely loving.
Yeah. There is there is a philosopher
named Heidegger and he has a really interesting quote about a
concept called I think it's called days in or something like
that. And let me pull this up because
you mentioned that how you know,we aren't meant to be alone,
right? And I just wanted to read this,

(54:53):
this philosophy that I think just is true and beautiful,
right? I think it's.
The cat walking outside anyway. Yeah.
It's not. I'm just kidding, that's so
funny. So many cats.
We're getting more cats. You're a cat magnet, Karina.
I love cats. So Daisy N?
I'm probably totally mispronouncing.
That is a German term that literally means being there, but

(55:15):
Heidegger uses it to refer to human existence.
Unlike objects that simply exist, Daisy N is unique because
it is aware of its own existenceand constantly interprets its
place in the world. A key feature of this is being
in the world, which means that human existence is always
situated in a world that has meaning shaped by relationships,
history, and culture. Heidegger argues that Daisian is

(55:36):
fundamentally future oriented. We exist by projecting ourselves
toward the future, making choices that define us.
Instead of passively existing, humans actively engage with the
world together with others. The last thing is that.
It's everything I believe, I think like we are.
These humans are deeply relational people and to think
that we don't need other people in this life, I think is, I

(55:56):
mean, you might. I think it's a thinking error to
think that we don't need people.You might need people in
different capacities than other other people might like someone
might really need a deep supportsystem with many, many people,
and some people might just have a couple people that they need.
But I think to think that we need to walk this life alone or
we don't need other people is completely asinine.

(56:17):
It's so true. I also realized we had this
discussion on pornography, but Inever really explicitly said my
views on it. But when it comes to
pornography, I think it is morally wrong and it isn't
entirely based in my religion. Yes, our religion says that it
is, is something that is very wrong for me.
It is based on, I mean personal experience and also just like my

(56:40):
research that I've done about it.
I think that, like I say this not to say that sex workers are
inherently wrong because they aspeople are fine, but I do I
think that pornography is just ablight on humanity.
Like once again, not to say thatthe people involved are a
blight, but just saying that like it is so addictive, it is
so destructive. There's so there's so much

(57:00):
scientific research and evidenceto show that it has so many
negative lasting effects on people.
And we talked earlier about different, different resources
for that. One of my favorite favorite
favorite non religion backed pages that is is fully like
research on like pornography andits negative effects from like
science based research and from personal accounts fight the new

(57:24):
drug. They have a website, they're on
Instagram, they're on basically all social media platforms, but
they post like scientific research based on like kind of
just showing the damage and the harm that pornography brings.
Yeah, think it is. It is so damaging.
I also I have I firmly believe there is no such thing as
ethical porn. There is so much exploitation
and coercion and all these things within the porn industry

(57:47):
that I just vehemently disagree with.
And so I am very anti porn. But that's not to say that I'm
anti people who struggle with that.
Like I I have the same love and compassion for people who
struggle with that that I do anyother thing.
I just think that like if it. You're better off without it.
Yeah, I was like, you are betteroff without it.
I mean, it's a drug and it is asbad as, if not worse than many,

(58:11):
many, many hard drugs. Like it has the same effects.
And I think that to look at it as something that is healthy is
very unhealthy. Like it, especially if you're
going to to like look up or liketo base your idea of what sex
should be is. Very not real.
It's not real. The people in it, like
oftentimes, I mean, there's beenplenty of articles of people who

(58:33):
are like, you know, I was, I wastold it would be one thing.
And then we get in there and they do something that I'm not
comfortable with, but then they tell me they're not going to pay
me for my time. So I have to do it.
And so I just am very, very adamantly against porn.
Like if there's one thing that, you know, I think about raising
my children one day and being like, if there's one thing that
I want them to know, it is it isdo not, do not like you are so

(58:55):
much better off without it and you know.
More harm than good? Just don't like, I know that
you're going to be curious and you're going to be like, well,
don't why? And it's like it's just not
good. Like and if you start with that,
you are fine. Like you are not a bad person.
It's just, it's addictive and it's not your fault, you know?
Yeah, for sure. I'm curious because, you know,

(59:19):
the scientific findings are that, you know, pretty much
always, you know, porn news compulsively is not good for the
brain, is not good for relationships, it's not good for
your well-being, right. And I'm curious because
statistically, most individuals actually do go to their Bishop
about porn news and things like that, right?
And so I was curious about what people's experience with their

(59:40):
Bishop has been like. Right there.
That's actually the current topic of the Utah Stats
Instagram page we have. We had so story responses about
all kinds of experiences with bishops, and if you are one of
them, thank you for your contribution.
It's so interesting to hear yourstories and experiences and
things. I mean, and it's very vulnerable
thing to, to talk about. So I'm, I'm always, I mean, and

(01:00:00):
I love to, I'd love to talk about it too.
But I think it's also a very vulnerable thing because it is
admitting to other people that there is, I mean, because a lot
of times they're lit, they're monitored in the church as like
serious sins. And so it's like open it like
being able to open up and admit to.
Something like that is very likea very brave thing to do.

(01:00:20):
Yeah, it is. It is, it's, it's it's hard.
And I and I wanted to share, youknow, because we hear, I'm sure
all of you have heard horror stories about bad bishops or bad
experiences with bishops, right?One good note that I was that I
was honestly really surprised tohear is that the majority of
Latter Day Saints report having good experiences with their
bishops. OK, So this is taken from

(01:00:41):
individuals who have gone through a repentance process
with their Bishop and then when asked about that, responded to
the question, how would you describe your experience meeting
with your Bishop overall? And about almost 90% of men
report having a positive experience and about 83 or 84%

(01:01:02):
of women report having a positive experience.
Women are statistically more likely to have a negative
experience, but that was only about 9% of them who reported
having a mostly negative or a very negative experience.
I wanted to ask what what are your thoughts on that?
Why do we hear about all these horror stories and the datasets
that is actually like pretty good.

(01:01:23):
And and also one thing to note is that when we break it down by
activity level, those who are less and inactive currently are
statistically more likely to have to reported having a
negative experience with their Bishop.
So that is one note too. But what kind of like you're
taking experience with that? For me, like that, that last
thing you mentioned is not not surprising at all.

(01:01:44):
I think that having a very, verynegative experience with a
Bishop can be in my eyes, a veryvalid reason to take a step back
from the church or even leave. Like that is something that that
would not surprise me like especially if they said very
negative experience like that would be really hard.
Like, that would be a serious blow to someone's testimony to
have someone who is supposed to lead and to have a super then

(01:02:07):
yeah. Like, that would be like, I, I
don't blame them at all. And I don't, I don't judge
people that leave the church. Like you have your agency and we
were sent here with our agency. And that's not my place to
judge. But it is it is good to hear
that there are a lot of people that have positive experiences
with their bishops. And I think that is largely
because it's a lot more common than we think to go to your

(01:02:27):
Bishop about something because as the stats show, a lot of
these things that people struggle with are a lot more
common than people think. Like talk about how it's like,
you know, you feel so alone, so isolated.
I'm the only person that is struggling with that when that
really is very not true. And so I'm glad to see those
those things. And for the people that did have

(01:02:47):
mostly negative or very negativeexperiences, my heart goes out
to you. I am so sorry.
Like, I can't imagine. I'm very blessed that in my
repentance process, I had a mostly positive, very positive
experience with it. Really.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that like it was easy because going
to Bishop about anything is, is scary.
Like you have to be, I mean, especially if you have like, so

(01:03:09):
for example, I mean, I didn't goto my Bishop in my home ward.
This was once again in in college when I was getting my
life together to think about going like the thought of going,
well, let me back up. So in high school, there were
things that I should have gone to my Bishop about.
But the hard thing was in New Jersey, my ward family was
literally like my family in New Jersey.
It's very common for all of us not live geographically close to

(01:03:32):
our extended family here in Utah.
You know, my, my grandparents live down the road or whatever.
So we go to grandma and grandpa's.
We don't spend a lot of time with outside of church with the
members of our ward. We're in New Jersey and it might
be exclusive to my ward, but those people, those members
became my family. They became my aunts and uncles,
my godfather, my great, my grandparents, like they were

(01:03:53):
like my siblings and things likethat.
So the thought of going to the Bishop was really scary because
I was like, he's a really good family friend, he's someone that
has known me my whole life. Yeah, yeah.
So that was really intimidating.And so it actually actually kind
of dissuaded me from going to myBishop in high school.
And also as a teenager, like if you are a teenager and you go to

(01:04:14):
your Bishop about something likeof your own volition, like props
to you because that takes balls.Like that is sexy.
Like that's a hard thing to do, especially if especially if
like, I mean, especially if you're young, like I can't
imagine. So if you, if you did, I'm

(01:04:35):
really, really proud of you and like props to you.
But I went, I went to the Bishopin college and it was, I had a
lot of things. It started probably about when I
was about 16 and went up until Iwas about 2021.
I really struggled with the law of chastity specifically because

(01:04:56):
I had really low self esteem andlike honestly, growing up they
were like, oh, choose today thatyou're not going to, you know,
have sex with people before marriage.
I would sit in those classes in your women's and be like, well,
if the opportunity arises, I'm lucky going to take it because
like I feel like would ever loveme.
And that was that was a really sad thing that I was struggling
with emotionally. So when the opportunities did

(01:05:17):
arise, I took them. So I'm looking back and I now
currently I have the blessing ofbeing called to serve with our
young women now. And I work specifically with
girls that are about like entering high school.
So 14 to 16. Well, 13 to 16 is specifically
what I work with. My cat is trying to get into a
suitcase. Can you maybe not She like

(01:05:39):
looked at me from the closet with like her glowing eyes
because it's dark. You miss Korean.
But I have the blessing of working with them and I'm very
open with them about what I struggled with in high school
because I'm like, if I can help you guys avoid the turmoil that
I went through, then that is that is a success to me.
And so I'm very open with them about that because like thinking

(01:06:02):
back like as a teenager, like you are a kid and like adding.
You're a child. Religion side, adding a sexual
aspect to a relationship that young is too much.
It's too much, it's too adult. Your brain is not fully
developed. You are not ready for like that
level of intimacy and also potential consequences of said
intimacy. Like you're not you're not

(01:06:22):
equipped for that. And I definitely wasn't and I
thought I was. I'm so adult.
I can handle my things. These are my relationships and
they you love me, I love them. No, you don't.
Yeah, right. You don't understand, like you
are young. And I know that that for young
people that is really hard to hear.
But like hindsight is 2020 and Iwas not ready for that.
And like, like, am I with any ofthose people today?

(01:06:42):
No, because it destroyed the relationship because it was it
was too much. And so in college, you know, I
was wanting to, I was wanting tobe better because I was really
struggling mentally. And I was like, you know, I
really feel like I should get myown endowment.
But I was like, I'm not like if I'm going to go and get my
endowment, I want to do it worthily.

(01:07:03):
And I want to feel, I want to feel like I'm not going in and
being. I want to feel like I'm not
being dishonest and doing it. And so I went to my Bishop in my
YSA ward. And for, if you're not familiar
with the terminology, it's a young single adult's ward.
I'm sorry, it's a young single adult's ward.
It's people 18 to like 20 something, I don't know.
And I went to my Bishop and I was like, you know, I want to

(01:07:24):
get endowed, but I have to tell you something.
And my first Bishop, bless his soul, was so sweet, so nice,
kind of an awkward guy. And he was like, OK, like, this
is something we can we can take care of together.
The first thing you did was cometo me and you did the first
step. That's so great.
And so he and I, we talked all about it.

(01:07:46):
I cried all these things becauseit's really vulnerable to talk
about it. And my heart goes out to
bishops. I can't imagine all that they
hear, all that they have to likethe, the responsibility of
having to, to take on people's burdens and stuff like that.
And so I can't imagine. So like props to people who are

(01:08:06):
bishops. And granted, there are some
people who don't handle situations perfectly, but also
we're and so. But I can't imagine glad that I,
I'm, I'm hopefully safe from ever being a Bishop.
But yeah, you never know. Yeah, but that's a whole other
can of worms that I could talk to you talk about for hours.
But but my first Bishop was veryloving, very sweet, very

(01:08:30):
understanding. I was like, oh, yes, like, thank
you for coming to me like you did.
Like, I'm really proud of you. Like, that's not easy.
I'm really like that. Like I'm, it was a big step that
you took and I'm glad. And we had decided that we would
meet every week before church todiscuss where I was at.
And it would be every week. I was like, well, I messed up
again. I went over to that guy's house.
Things happened. I feel bad about it, like,

(01:08:50):
especially because I know that like, like I'll be in the moment
being like, well, I'm going to have to go tell Bishop about
this on Sunday and like activelyknowing, but choosing anyway.
And then, and then my Bishop wasreleased because in, in
especially in Utah, Well, actually might be church wide,
but generally bishops served forabout 5 years and then they're
released and there's a new Bishop assigned called.

(01:09:12):
And so my Bishop was released and I was like, Dang it, I love
that man. He's so nice to me.
And our new Bishop got called and I met with him that Sunday
and he's like, your Bishop has filled me in on everything, like
all these things. And he was, well, not the first
time, but the next time, at the next, I came in and I was like,
yeah, I messed up. I went over to that guy's house
again, Like, things happened, all these things.

(01:09:33):
And he was really hard on me. Like, he was like, I don't
understand why you're going to keep meeting with me every week
to tell me that you're doing thesame things.
Like, that shows me that you're not committed to this.
Like, my gosh. Yeah.
Like he was really, really hard on me.
And like, I will say, like, I believe firmly in my heart that
he used his discernment, his keys of discernment as a Bishop

(01:09:54):
to know that that was what I needed to hear.
Really. Like I don't, I firmly, I do not
believe that he was like that with everyone because like I was
in, he was my Bishop for years. He came to my ceiling.
We are, we are very, very close still.
And I never heard people say badthings about him ever.
But he, he was very much, he wasvery hard on me and he was like,

(01:10:15):
I want you to come back and meetwith me when you are serious
about your repentance process because right now this is not
you being serious. And I was like, OK.
I'd be ticked like and. I, I was, I was like, because
that started like it was a couple, it was a couple weeks of
that where he's like, you can come back when you, you can
schedule a meeting with me when you are ready to be serious

(01:10:37):
about this. That was after a couple weeks or
maybe even a couple months of that, maybe a month or two of
that. Wow.
I was like, I hate this guy. Like he's the worst.
He doesn't care about me. I want my old Bishop back.
He was so nice to me, so loving,so sweet.
But now, and even as I was actually doing my, like when I
started going back and meeting it with him, and even when it

(01:10:58):
was starting, I was like, you know what?
This is actually what I need. Like, like in my process, like
God knew that I needed someone to get started, to have someone
who would be super sweet, super gentle, super loving, so I would
feel comfortable enough to open up, but then actually change.
I needed someone to be brutally honest with me about my
shenanigans. I mean, like, no, you're not

(01:11:19):
serious. Like you're not going to change
if you're going to come to me every week and say you did the
same thing over and over again. And so I'm like, once again, I'm
still very close with that Bishop.
He came to my wedding like all these things.
But like, like that could have been a really negative
experience for me. But like in hindsight, I'm so
grateful that he was able to be hard on me because that that is

(01:11:41):
what got me to be able to be endowed to at that time.
Like I had already kind of met my husband.
My husband was, I love him to death.
My husband had like recently gotten off his mission and I was
like, the second I saw him, I knew we would get married.
I was like, it was just like feeling like he's going to be
very important in your life. But I was like, I am not the

(01:12:01):
kind of person that he would marry where I am now.
I don't think he would marry me.And obviously that was being
very self deprecating, but I wasalso like, I want to be the kind
of person that he would take seriously, but I don't know, I
don't want to, I don't want to make my husband sound like a
prick. He's not.
But like I want to be the kind of person that like he can see

(01:12:22):
marrying. He can't take the temple.
Like I wanted to be married in the temple.
I wanted like that was somethingthat I valued.
And so I was like, I need to make serious changes if I want
like my goals in life to be accomplished.
And like right now, I'm like nottaking things seriously.
And so like through that, like that repentance process and
like, even like my husband was there for a lot of it because we

(01:12:42):
were, we were good friends at the time and we were like kind
of dating, but not putting labels on it.
And I think honestly, it's because he was like, I don't
know where she's at. Interesting.
But that helped me be able to take out my own endowment.
My husband tells me all the time, he's like, you are 100% a
different person than who I met.Like I met one person, we worked

(01:13:06):
together. He's like when I first met you
and where you are now. He's like being there for your
whole repentance process and like being actively part of it
and like knowing everything thatyou've gone through.
He was like, he's like, it made you so much more attractive to
me to see that like you made goals and you changed on your
own and you decided that and it was, it was, it's like a really

(01:13:28):
special part of our relationship.
I think is like interesting tells me all the time, like
whereas, you know, sometimes I think back to like who you were
when we met and like I love you so much more now because you
decided to improve yourself, notbecause of me, but because you
wanted to. Interesting.
Yeah. And so again, my heart goes out
to people that don't have that same experience.

(01:13:50):
Like I want to acknowledge that.Like, I don't know if my
experience is, I wouldn't say that it's like rare, but I do
know that there are people whereit's like if they had a Bishop
be really hard on them that thatcould be a serious blow to their
testimony and have them wonder like if that is something like
if that is of God and stuff likethat being like, I think you're
just judging me and that's why you're being hard on me.

(01:14:11):
Like I want to acknowledge that like that, like my experience is
probably like it was specific tome.
I remember my, I have two sisters.
Well, I have four sisters. So I had two sisters that I
lived with in college. I have one older and one
younger. And at one point we, we read
each other's patriarchal blessings, which was a really

(01:14:33):
special experience. We all like felt like it was
something that was right. And both my sisters like
specifically had like you will never break the word of wisdom
or you will never break like thelaw of chastity or something
like that. And mine doesn't.
Like you're going crazy, Karina,have fun.
Like not. But I was like, I was looking at
that and I was like hindsight, like, you know, both my sisters

(01:14:54):
are very, very devoutly religious.
But I think it's, it was divinely inspired that mine said
that it didn't have those specific things because if it
did specifically say those things and I struggled with them
anyway, I think that would have been harder for me.
But like, I think that, you know, my patriarch, who I love,
he's, he's a great man. My patriarch knew that like I

(01:15:15):
would struggle. And I think God knew that I
would struggle. But that's how I like, that's
how that's what I needed to do in order to learn the why and my
personal why for why I follow these things and why I believe
what I do. Like I need to experience the
bad first in order to see the good.
Interesting. OK, Thank you.
I appreciate. That was really long, Linded.

(01:15:37):
I'm sorry. That was all over the.
Place No, it's OK. Listeners I have ADHD and I like
to my thoughts connect all over the place and so.
I have a follow up question and kind of a tricky question that I
want to ask you in regards to meeting with your Bishop,
especially as a woman. One thing that is a somewhat
common sentiment that I've heardon the page is a middle-aged man

(01:16:01):
who I don't know, shouldn't be asking me detailed questions
about my sexual encounters and that kind of thing, right?
And so I want to ask kind of kind of your perspective as
someone who has kind of gone through that process.
How much is having a positive experience with a Bishop when
you know it is pretty common, you know, for them to ask

(01:16:21):
questions in order to clarify, you know, and understand the
situation? How do you kind of like?
Reconcile that. And, and how do you, you know,
feel about, you know, it it being a middle-aged man who, who
is asking you these questions and, and everything?

(01:16:41):
I've heard stories and I've heard thoughts and opinions
about, you know, including a member from the religious
society or just some other womanin, in their pendants process
meetings, right? You know, just to help them, you
know. Yeah, like what?
Are your thoughts on just kind of like this process and the
system that the church has in place?
I mean, I think I was lucky. Well, actually, I don't think I

(01:17:03):
should say that I'm lucky, but neither Bishop that I, that I
worked with was ever asking for details about what happened.
They were pretty fine with me saying like, you know, I had a
sexual encounter with this person or like, if anything,
they would. It was mostly like, you know, it
was this guy who's also a memberand he'd be like, can I, can I
know their ward so I can discusswith their Bishop if it is

(01:17:26):
necessary and stuff like that, Which is also kind of a hard
thing to ask because you're like, I don't want to get them
in trouble. Like, yeah, they're not ready to
talk about it kind of thing. But I was, I was very fortunate
that, you know, neither one of my bishops really pride for
details. Like they just let me tell it as
I was. They would only ever like if
they felt like I was like being flippant about something.

(01:17:49):
Like if you was like feel like you're kind of being flippant,
like can you, can you tell me what actually happened?
Or like I was minimizing something that they thought was
serious. And that's kind of why my Bishop
was like, come back to me when you're when you're ready to be
serious because I was kind of like minimizing it and stuff
like that or being like, yeah, like whatever.
And he was like, well, no. Like if you, if you do consider
this a serious thing, you're notbeing serious about it.

(01:18:11):
And honestly, it is my personal opinion.
I mean, it is important to remember like our bishops are
not paid. They're not, they're not experts
and things. They are.
They're just men who are called.They're just dudes.
Yeah, they're just like, like my, my dad has never been a
Bishop, but my dad has been in like, like the Bishop Rick
before and like, which is alwayskind of a weird thing where

(01:18:35):
you're like my dad like. But I think it's important to
remember that like our bishops are just people and they are
doing their best. It is my opinion, though, that
like bishops should not be asking for details of like what
exactly did you do or like explain what you did to me or
like asking things like, did youorgasm or something?
Like I don't think that's appropriate.

(01:18:56):
And I don't also don't think that's necessary to the
conversation. So, I mean, I have, I have seen
articles or read articles where it's like bishops are like
prying into like specifics and stuff.
And I'm like, there are some things where I'm like, I really
don't think that that's necessary to know in an
understanding of like what occurred.
You don't need to have a play byplay.
Yeah. And that's just my personal

(01:19:16):
feelings about it. So I think, I mean, yeah, yeah.
Personal experience. I didn't have to be super
explicit with what happened, butyeah, so.
And if you did, I'm sorry, because that probably was really
invasive and really embarrassing.
Yeah. And so my heart goes out if they
were like, I can't imagine, especially with like a
middle-aged man like I, that waspart of the reason that I felt

(01:19:39):
so like it was so difficult. And when I was in high school,
especially, like, especially living with my parents, like
having to explain that I had a meeting with the Bishop, like
then I feel like they'd have to involve my parents and then my
parents know, like, that's terrifying.
I don't want my parents to know that.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
It's like, I don't want my parents to know that I was
getting frisky with someone. That's weird.

(01:19:59):
Yeah, right. And so.
Yeah. So like as a teenager, I feel
like, yeah, I definitely was like kind of aware.
But I also think it was more of,I mean, I mentioned it earlier,
it was more of that everyone knew everyone in my ward.
Like we all very tight knit. We all knew each other's
business because we're from New Jersey.
I mean, we talk. Yeah, right.

(01:20:20):
But obviously the Bishop didn't.He had great discretion.
But that was something that was that was scary for me.
Like you're an adult figure. I feel like as I became an adult
and processed my repentance as an adult, I mean, granting that
was like 19/20/21. Yeah, adult.
Yeah, right. Like I was able to look at it.

(01:20:44):
It felt less daunting because I felt more on like a level
playing field. Like you're going to treat me
like an adult rather than like, yeah, being parented, you know,
'cause I have, maybe it's part of my ADHD, but I have some
things about feeling parented. Like we're like, don't do that.
Like I'm I'm. Like the natural opposition.
Yeah, well, I don't know if it'slike I naturally oppose things,
but I just don't think sometimesmy husband will do something

(01:21:06):
like stop parenting me like I can.
Yeah. It's like, I'm very stubborn,
very independent, always have been.
My parents tell me all the time.And so I think repenting as an
adult felt easier because we were both sitting in it
approaching where, like I said, if you did that as a teenager,
props to you because that must have been so hard.
Yeah, so it sounds like good buthard.

(01:21:28):
Was your experience scary but hard but but also positive?
Yeah, no, overwhelmingly positive.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that I had a negative experience
looking back, I'm sure in the moment.
And I was like, dude, I hate this Bishop.
But then as I progressed in my, in my repentance process, I was
like, oh, actually he was doing exactly what I needed to what

(01:21:49):
exactly what I needed to be ableto like, actually commit to like
changing my life. It helped me so much, like in
every aspect. Interesting.
Thank you. Thank you.
I appreciate you sharing all that.
I think it's these vulnerable stories and experiences that
that really make you know everything that you test at so

(01:22:10):
much more real and personal. Thank you so much.
Well. Yeah, and I'm feeling sorry.
Go ahead. Sharing our stories helps other
people feel less alone or like, you know, like going to the
Bishop is never easy. Yeah.
And if it feels easy then like good, but also, you know.
You might be doing it wrong. Yeah, you might be doing it

(01:22:30):
wrong. You might be going at it with
the wrong attitude. Like, yeah, when we go through
our repentance process, like I remember I had to do a lot of
studying on like what godly sorrow is.
And that didn't. Godly sorrow doesn't mean that
God wants me to be upset, but itjust is acknowledging like the
best way I looked at it, I thinkabout it is like my perspective

(01:22:51):
on godly sorrow is kind of acknowledging like when Christ
was in Gethsemane, bleeding fromevery pore, how many drops were
me? You know, how drops of blood
were specifically for the thingsthat I did and my struggles and
my pain. And I think that really puts in
context like just the brevity ofthe sacrifice that Christ made.
So we can, we can have our agency, so we can, you know, use

(01:23:13):
our lives, learn, you know, like, yeah, how many stupid
things have I done that he bled for?
You know, and like, that really put into perspective like when I
go and I do these things over and over again, like that was
something that Christ bled for and that that didn't make me be
like, oh, my goodness, I'm a terrible person.
But I'm like, Oh my goodness. Like the love that that price

(01:23:34):
has for me that he, that he sat there and suffered even though I
came back every week and was like, yeah, well, I went to that
guy's house again, like, oops. Like he, he willingly did that.
And for me, that put into context, like, you know, what if
he suffered for me in that context, like, I should be able
to stop making decisions and cutthis douche bag out of my life.

(01:23:56):
Like, yeah. You mentioned that godly sorrow,
and Neely Maxwell describes thatsame kind of feeling as divine
discontent. And I really love that phrase.
And I think to me, it means, youknow, I think that at least
growing up, I feel like I had a very, I was very blessed to have

(01:24:18):
a very clear understanding of guilt versus shame.
So it's like I was taught, you know, shame means that you
aren't good because you made a mistake and you can't change and
you're a bad person, whereas guilt says you did make a
mistake, but it doesn't mean you're a bad person and you can
still grow and you aren't defined by that mistake, right?

(01:24:39):
And so because of that, I feel like I was really able to have
pretty healthy repentance. You know, I feel like when we
talk about like repentance, it'salways just repentance.
But but I'm curious how many people go through all this shame
in their repentance, perhaps because of the way they're
raised or because just the pointof standing or because from
attacks of the adversary. You know what I mean?

(01:25:00):
Yeah, I'm. Curious.
You feel like you have to be shameful.
Yeah, I have to hate myself in order to.
I feel bad enough to repent almost right?
Perspective is never was is was I never will be what the plan
is. You know the plan was never for
us to come here and suffer like it was for us to come here learn

(01:25:23):
and become like him. You know, like we will suffer
obviously, because that's how welearn.
And if it's not for, if it's notlike we experience those things
because that's how we learn to see beauty in the opposites, you
know. And so like, I mean, I
understand like, like feeling the shame of like this, like,

(01:25:46):
well, but like, I think sitting back and being like, is this
feeling of shame coming from Godor is it coming from how I think
other people would react to it? Because God does not want us to
feel ashamed of ourselves. Like he loved us infinitely.
And that is a beautiful thing. And so to think of, to think of
God as someone who wants us to sit there and feel shame for our

(01:26:06):
choices, like that is such a sadexpression of deity.
Like I don't think I don't believe in a vengeful, wrathful
God. I don't like.
I believe in the God that wants us to be our best selves.
He wants us to be like him and so like, through these things,
like he'll never condemn us. Like.
I don't know. Yeah, Thing I had a really good

(01:26:27):
line and I had a zinger. And then I like the point of us
coming here. Like the expectation was never
for perfection. Yeah.
But we were never sent here withthe idea that you're going to
come here and you will be perfect all the time or you have
to be perfect. That is not the expectation for
literally any of us. Yeah.
Like like Christ was perfect, yes, but that was the entire

(01:26:48):
point of his existence was for him to be a perfect example for
us so that we can emulate him inour lives.
But the plan that was presented to us was never you're going to
come here and it's going to be you have to be perfect or I will
not love you and you will not come back to me and you have to.
Suffer. Yeah, that was never the plan
and so. Yeah.

(01:27:11):
When we're in the trenches of like these repentance processes
or struggling with certain things like addiction, thinking
and having the context to be able or like having the ability
to step back and be like, you know what?
I was never sent here to be perfect.
It's such a healing way to startbecause like, yes, I would go
back for a couple months every week and be like, yeah, I like

(01:27:33):
screwed up again and everything like that.
But like, it took progress, not perfection.
Like there were weeks that I went in and I was like, yeah, I
kind of screwed up and all thesethings.
And my Bishop was like, you know, like, that's that's hard
to hear. But we need to remember that
we're looking at progress. We went how long without, you
know, without meeting with this guy?

(01:27:54):
And then he'd be like, you know what?
Like you're telling me about this guy.
He doesn't sound great. Like he's like, yeah, I was
like, he's kind of the worst. Like, yeah.
And I have no idea how he's doing now.
Hopefully he's fine. Yeah.
But I also, I don't care becauseI'm married and happily, but
like looking at that progress and honestly, like his counsel
about being like, you know what,Like this doesn't sound like a

(01:28:16):
healthy relationship. This doesn't sound like you're
being respected or it doesn't seem like he's encouraging you.
Like, like if you've voiced thatthis is what you want to do, it
doesn't sound like he's supporting you in that.
And so like, you know, I'm not going to tell you to like get
rid of him or, you know, I'm notgoing to try and force you to do
that. But like for me as an outside

(01:28:36):
person, it sounds like that's not healthy.
And like I'm going to let you form your own ideas of what you
should do about that. And honestly, that was really,
really like a blessing to have him be like, you know what?
Like, from my knowledge, this doesn't sound like a healthy
relationship. And like, I think we should
evaluate if that's something that should be in your life, if

(01:28:56):
these are your goals. And like, that made all the
difference. Well, thank you, Karina.
We really appreciate you coming on.
We do have a Part 2 plan, so we're excited to have you on for
that. You there guys?