July 30, 2025 • 44 mins
What makes someone become a writer? For the three Gen X hosts of Women Are Plotting, their creative origins trace back to childhood—creating elaborate storylines for Barbies, convincing neighborhood kids a shark lurked in a backyard pond, and discovering the thrilling power of bringing imaginary worlds to life with nothing but words.
This debut episode reveals the fascinating, often winding paths that led Etienne, Jane, and Heidi to writing. From the four-year-old who realized she could transport others with her stories to the aspiring filmmaker who discovered screenwriting through a scheduling conflict, each journey demonstrates that creativity finds its expression against all odds. They share how writing became not just a hobby but a necessity—a balancing force that, when abandoned, leaves them feeling "unmoored" and slowly "going insane."
The conversation explores those magical moments of validation that kept them creating even without an audience: the high school teacher who predicted publication, a second place in a short story contest coming at the perfect moment, and the experience of having others truly connect with their words. They debunk the myth of writer's block (it's really just perfectionism in disguise) and reveal their techniques for pushing through creative obstacles.
With delightful asides about Stephen King sleeping with the lights on and Ray Bradbury being "knighted" by a carnival performer, this episode celebrates the quirky inspirations that fuel creativity. The hosts make a compelling case for why authentic human storytelling—born from lived experience—will always connect with readers in ways artificial intelligence never can.
Whether you're a writer yourself or simply curious about the creative process, this warm, honest conversation invites you into the world where ideas exist as living entities, searching for the right vessel to bring them to life. Subscribe to The Women Are Plotting for more insights into creativity, writing, and the stories we tell ourselves.
Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Etienne (00:02):
Welcome listeners.
This is The Women Are Plotting.
I'm Etienne Rose Olivier, andI'm here with my friends and
co-hosts Heidi Willis and JaneGari.
With this being our firstepisode, we'll introduce
ourselves to you.
My first name is Etienne, butmy friends call me Etty.
(00:22):
I'm a 53-year-old Gen X woman.
I'm a writer.
I don't have anything publishedyet, but hopefully soon.
My latest writing that I'vebeen working on for a while now
is a memoir which covers thefirst two years after my
then-husband asked for a divorce.
I'm also a registered nurse,and I've been one since 2008.
(00:43):
I've taken care of bothchildren and adults, although
right now, I work with childrenThanks to being a writer and a
nurse.
I have a wide range ofinterests and specialties.
Jane (00:58):
I'm Jane Gari.
I'm friends with Etty.
I was an English teacher forabout 20 years and also started
writing books, also Gen X, 51years old, go Gen X, and I also
occasionally dabble in somestand-up comedy, but don't ask
me to tell a joke because I suckat it.
(01:19):
I'm just a storyteller andenjoy telling all kinds of
stories.
I do have a memoir out that'strue story family drama, and
right now I am shopping a novelcalled Love in Shakespeare's
Shadow.
So wish me luck on this writingjourney.
And also, joining us is ourother writer friend.
Heidi (01:40):
Hi, I'm Heidi Willis and I'm a screenwriter working on an
MFA right now.
We also wrote a humor booktogether, Jane and I did a few
years back, still looking for apublisher for that.
Oh and yeah, 52, gen Xer.
So yeah, we're all Gen X here,have some years under our belts.
Etienne (02:05):
Today's episode is Why W e Became Writers and we start
out with our little fun factrelated to our episode.
And today mine is about RayBradbury.
He did not go to college, heonly graduated high school.
But he said that he went intothe library and never came back
out again, like he literallyjust read.
(02:27):
And that was his collegeeducation.
And when he was 12 years old hewent to see Mr.
Electro on Labor day weekend in1932 50, 000 bolts of
electricity was pulsed throughthis guy's body and he had a
sword in his hand, a flamingsword, supposedly, and Ray
Bradbury is in the front row.
And he touched Ray Bradbury onboth shoulders Sounds a little
(02:49):
bit like he was being knightedby this guy and also on the tip
of his nose.
So if it was flaming, this isreally scary to me.
And he said live forever.
And supposedly Ray Bradburythought God, that's wonderful,
how do you do that?
And he said he left thecarnival that day and he started
writing and he never stopped.
That's how he lives forever,forever and ever, because he's
(03:11):
one of the best of all time.
Heidi (03:14):
Mine's about an author as well.
Etienne (03:16):
Oh nice.
Heidi (03:17):
My inspiration growing up was Stephen King.
That was one of the things mymom would always get me.
Was you know the latesthardcover of Stephen King.
So I was looking for fun factson Stephen King.
So he said in a 1982 interviewthat he had had a lifelong fear
of the dark and sleeps with thelight on.
Etienne (03:38):
Oh my God, really?
Heidi (03:40):
Isn't that wild?
I don't know if it's still.
That's crazy, yeah.
Etienne (03:45):
Like that.
Heidi (03:46):
Yeah, I guess he gets inspiration from you know what
he fears in the dark.
But and he's also a hugeGrateful Dead fan, yeah, so I
thought that was kind of funny,you know, piggybacking off of
our last episode.
Jane (04:04):
That is fabulous and also it's actually somehow comforting
that Stephen King is afraid ofthe dark and I'm still like I'm
only afraid of the dark if I'malone.
If someone else is with me inthe dark, I feel like I'm fine
but if I'm alone.
.
.
Etienne (04:17):
Maybe somebody is always with you in the dark.
Jane (04:20):
Thanks for that.
Heidi (04:24):
You are never alone.
Etienne (04:25):
Oh, she's turning into something.
Heidi (04:28):
None of us are alone.
Jane (04:30):
That is true, but if there is not another human being or a
dog in the room, in the darkthen I don't like it If I have a
dog in the room with me, I'mokay.
But if I am the only, if I'm theonly living thing that I can
perceive.
There you go alone in the dark.
Not a fan of that feeling.
Heidi (04:51):
What ifs right?
Yeah.
Jane (04:53):
Yes, and apparently Stephen King's did too, but he
was like you know what?
I'm gonna, I'm gonna make thislucrative as I sit here and look
at, like novellas on my
Heidi (05:02):
Yes.
Jane (05:03):
His Four Past Midnight collection up on my shelf and
also on my shelf I'm seeing outof the corner of my eye, is
Something WickedThis Way Comes by Ray
Bradbury and what you weretelling us, Etty, about the fun
fact about Ray Bradbury.
I feel like that he must havemade that true experience into
that story.
I don't know if either of youhave ever read Something Wicked
(05:24):
This Way Comes it's about thiscarnival that comes down and
this guy who's running thecarnival is trying to live
forever and the carousel playslike the song that the carousel
plays is actually the funeralmarch in reverse, and it's just
creepy creepy stuff.
Etienne (05:38):
Ooh, you give me chills .
Jane (05:39):
and it's so
Etienne (05:41):
Yeah, I did read it, but it's been a while.
Jane (05:48):
It's been a while.
taught that book when I wasstill teaching high school, back
to back with Macbeth, becausethe title Something Wicked This
Way Comes is from the witchesand there are a lot of
references to Macbeth in it.
But I just I love Ray Bradburyalso and it's super cool.
But my fun fact about writingis about writer's block and that
I was doing some research onwriter's block and the consensus
of the research is it's a myth.
Etienne (06:08):
It's a myth.
Jane (06:09):
Writer's block is a myth and what is really happening is
you're either being paralyzed byyour own perfectionism or
you're just have a fear offailure and you're afraid okay,
if I do write something, it'sgoing to be shitty, so let me
just not do it at all.
Etienne (06:23):
Oh.
I can see that.
Jane (06:25):
I find that the real cure to writer's block is just to be
okay with writing somethingshitty and fix it later, or
change my environment yeah, gofor a walk and then come back
and sit with it and be like it'sfine, it's not going to be and
to not try to edit placeholders.
Just be like all right putsomething cool in here later.
(06:46):
Yeah, great.
Etienne (06:47):
Awesome metaphor goes here.
Heidi (06:49):
She leaves.
Jane (06:53):
Oh my gosh.
Awesome metaphor goes here.
That's so great.
Heidi (06:57):
Because a lot of times, once you keep going, the
solution reveals itself later onin the story and then you're
able to go back and go oh, myGod, this is so perfect.
And now I realize why I had toskip this part, because so yeah,
it's definitely perfectionismand your own head.
Etienne (07:15):
And one thing about Ray Bradbury.
That's really cool.
I actually have.
I went to a signing, a booksigning, so I have two books
signed by him.
Heidi (07:21):
No way, oh my God.
Etienne (07:24):
Dandelion Wine.
It was the only Ray Bradburyhardcover that I owned, and
Something Wicked This Way Comespaperback.
I had him signed, so I have twothings signed by him.
I know.
Jane (07:34):
That's so great.
Etienne (07:36):
I know.
Heidi (07:37):
When was this?
Etienne (07:38):
This was in the 90s.
Yeah, this was definitely whenI was still in community college
.
Yeah, I think that's when Ifound out about I mean, I knew
of him but like found out abouthis story about how he was
self-educated with the library.
He literally was like you don'tneed to go to college, you just
go to the library.
Literally.
Heidi (07:57):
Well, that's what they say.
You know, if you want to be awriter, read.
You just read everything youcan and write as often as you
can, and yeah you're a writer.
Etienne (08:09):
In the last five years, I really upped my reading game,
so I'm reading at least a booka week now since then, and it
really has changed how easilythe words come, like the words
just come, and I know when it'sgood it flows.
It has its own rhythm, andevery time you start to read
something new you have to getinto their rhythm.
Everybody has their own rhythmof how it sounds in your brain
(08:32):
when you're reading it, and, uh,it always is like bumpy, like
the first five or ten pages, andI'm reading somebody else's
work, and then it clicks and I'mgood.
Then I can start reading at anormal pace where I feel like
they're just talking to me.
Does anybody want to go firsttalking about why they became a
writer, though?
Was the impetus or the startingpoint?
Jane (08:53):
I feel like I started telling stories before I started
writing them down.
Heidi (08:58):
Barbies.
Jane (09:00):
True to, I guess.
Heidi (09:02):
Yeah, I was creating stories with Barbies.
Jane (09:10):
They had backstories,
Etienne (09:10):
Oh backstories.
Jane (09:11):
Oh my gosh.
Heidi (09:11):
My sister was so annoyed with me because I was like I was
incontrol of the storyline
Etienne (09:16):
Oh no, did she try to add in?
And you're like
Heidi (09:19):
No, how I got it goes I was like that.
That's tired.
a tyrant.
You know, like the head writer,it will be my way
Jane (09:29):
Oh my gosh, the barbie green room.
You're just like no, not.
Or the writer's room,
Heidi (09:34):
Yes, yeah
Jane (09:36):
That's funny.
Etienne (09:36):
Oh my god.
Heidi (09:37):
Go ahead.
Sorry.
Jane (09:40):
I'm just thinking about.
Like I had different storylines.
I would then pick up.
I had a barbie who was in aband and they went on tour and
there were just all kinds ofthings that happened with that.
But my very first where Irealized the power of
storytelling, I was four yearsold.
I was living in Connecticut andwe had this pond in our
backyard.
Just was talking to my littlefriends that we were hanging out
playing and I was just likethere's a shark that lives in
(10:03):
this pond and if you get tooclose it eats children.
So we have to be very careful.
And I knew I was making it up.
I thought that they also knew Iwas making it up and that we
were just having fun.
But they did not.
They believed me and they werelike, oh my God.
And then what happened?
Because I was like and then youknow, years ago, and I was
making up that I gave the sharka backstory, the whole thing,
(10:24):
like you know, barbies, but withsharks and they were enthralled
.
And then I realized theybelieved me.
Now I'm not proud of this.
I should have corrected themimmediately and I'm just making
this up.
We're playing a game, but theybelieve me and I saw the power
in that and I was like maybe Iwon't tell them right away.
You know, I let it go on for alittle bit, but I was stopped
(10:45):
because some of the parents inthe neighborhood told me to stop
.
Etienne (10:48):
Oh, were you scaring them that bad?
Jane (10:50):
I was scaring them where, then they were thinking like any
body of water could have ashark in it.
Etienne (10:55):
Gosh.
Jane (10:57):
But what I realized in that moment, though, is that you
could, with your words, spin upa whole different world, and I
loved.
I also lovedyou know reading at a very young
age and I always like you know.
Heidi (11:09):
It's a library.
Jane (11:09):
Yes, it is a library, right, and my mom always took us
to the library and I loved howreading opened up worlds for me
in my head and me telling thatstory about the shark was like
me then making my own world forthe first time, and I just loved
how someone else built a worldfor me that I could explore in a
book and I just wanted to dothat for other people.
(11:29):
And then, as I grew up and hadthings happen in my life that
took my power away, I then heldon to writing even more tightly,
like I started writing storiespretty young and just and never
stopped.
And then ifI do stop.
I feel weird, you know.
I feel like imbalanced, andsometimes it'll take me a while
(11:50):
to figure out why I feelimbalanced.
I'm like, oh, it's because I'mnot having a regular writing
practice.
And as soon as I do that, thenI feel balanced again.
Etienne (11:58):
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about with
that.
I've tried to quit before acouple of times.
Jane (12:02):
It's a drug.
Etienne (12:03):
Yeah, no, no, it's just because, like you want to
create art, thinking you know,maybe eventually down the road
somebody else will see it.
It's not just you.
I've been writing since 1994,basically, I mean, 96 was when I
wrote my first novel, but Istarted writing screenplays in
94.
So I had two years of that.
(12:24):
But you go that long, that'sover 30 years of nobody else
really seeing your work, exceptfor your friends or people you
paid and look at it and help youwith it, and you start to think
why am I doing this?
Do I really?
Why am I?
Am I why?
Why?
So?
Multiple times at least twoseparate occasions I've tried to
quit and time has gone by and Istart to feel more and more
(12:48):
unmoored and just not balancedin my body and in my brain and I
start to go slowly insane.
And then, if I start to writeagain, that completely goes away
and I'm normal again and it'slike I need to be creating
something all the time.
Otherwise I just don't feelokay with myself.
(13:13):
For me my mother was a poetfamous in her own mind.
She never was out in the worldwith her writing.
I was her sole audience and sheraised me to be so positive and
tell her how brilliant she was.
So when I had to start writingpapers for school in middle
school she was a really heavyeditor of my work.
She had to see everything.
She made me show her my workand she would edit and it would
(13:35):
sound nothing like me anymoreand I would turn it in because
she made me.
I had no choice and at first Igot good grades and then finally
I hit on a teacher I think itwas in ninth grade who gave me a
C on a paper that technically Ididn't write one word of it
because my mother at that pointhad just taken over completely.
She's like what am I writingabout?
Didn't even let me even try.
(13:57):
I was stunted on my own growthof like actually being a writer
for myself.
And that teacher gave me a Cand I think it was to show me it
wasn't like the paper was bad.
She just knew, I think, that Ididn't write it and she was
trying to tell me.
I told my mom, I think I haveto be writing my own papers from
now on, otherwise I'm going tolike fail out of school.
So it took me a little while tolearn how to write at the same
(14:20):
level as my peers, and so thattook me about a couple of years
probably, but by the time I wasa senior in high school I was
definitely on the same level asall my other cohorts in school
and I still really wasn't intowriting.
Heidi (14:32):
Yeah, I saw kids having the same thing, like the parents
were doing their art projectsfor them.
Etienne (14:40):
Not surprising, I mean.
So my mom, like that was herbig claim to fame in her mind
was that she was this amazingwriter.
So we wanted to livevicariously through my school
work for some reason cause shewasn't turning in her own work
into the real world of, like,the world.
So when I was in college, I wasa Radio, TV, Film major, first
time around and I was a filmproduction emphasis.
So I was trying to be a filmdirector.
(15:07):
That's what I wanted to be.
But there was the one finalclass that I needed.
That was so impacted like itwas so hard to get this class
that I knew I'd have to stickaround school and keep taking
other classes that just to fillin the time so I could wait
around to get this one classthat it was going to take me a
year and a half possibly to getthis class and I was done with
everything else.
It was just me wasting my timeif I was waiting around for this
(15:29):
class.
And I went to my advisor and Iwas like this is ridiculous.
I just need this one class.
Why don't they just makeanother class?
Like everybody's having thisproblem.
And she's like, well, you can'tdo.
You know it's a number ofcameras, a number of editing
bays.
And I'm like, yes, I understand, but still.
And she's like, well, you couldchange to screenwriting and you
could graduate this semester.
You just have to take this oneother screenwriting class.
(15:52):
And I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, Ican do that that's fine and so
I went and I took that I had towrite a full-length screenplay
for the class and I think Iended up having like 19 units
that semester and this was threeof those was me writing a full
screenplay and having all theseother classes.
But there was one night I satdown to write and it was 10
(16:14):
o'clock at night.
I was just giving myself anhour to write and I looked up
and it was two o'clock in themorning and I was like what?
Oh my God, I just went to someplace I've never been to before
and it was amazing and I steppedinto this bubble of artistry.
Not that what I produced wasall that great, I'm just saying
I went to a place that I wantedto go to a lot.
(16:35):
That's when I decided, oh, Ilike this, this is good.
I didn't change fromscreenwritings until I realized
I'm just not a schmoozer.
I'm in LA but I'm not the rightkind of person who's going to
make the right connections andbe out there schmoozing and
doing Harvey Weinstein to likeget myself out there.
So I'm just going to write books.
So it was like in 96 when Iwrote my first book and I wrote
(16:58):
it in 30 days at my aunt's housein New Jersey and I found that
book not too long ago and readit.
It's so bad.
It's so bad, we all have to havesomething.
Yeah, we all have to startsomewhere.
Heidi (17:13):
It's great to go back to your old stuff and see how far
you've come, because you're like, oh wow, I used to think this
was awesome and this is terrible.
Etienne (17:20):
Yeah, and they'll let other people read it.
I actually got people to readthat book.
I'm like, oh, I'm soembarrassed.
How do I just go back in timeand you'd never talk about this
book.
Heidi (17:39):
Give them their time back .
I was trying today for my funfact, to try to find has there
(18:13):
ever been a writer who sort ofback-stepped into the profession
like I feel like I did?
I was really trying to not be awriter.
And my mom was making it notfun for me in the beginning,
obviously.
I was kinda pushed into it, butfound out I really liked it.
But I couldn't really findanybody.
I mean, I found some writerswhere they talked about they
don't particularly enjoy writingsometimes.
But it's not like they, youknow, came upon it like I did.
This, this is not what I meantto do with my life, but I like
it lot, you.
?
know,
You the magic of the storytelling part of it.
Yeah, yeah.
Etienne (18:17):
I really love those times.
I mean it happens to me all thetime where I just sit down and
you start and like hours aregone.
You're like how did that happen?
Like they just disappeared.
Heidi (18:28):
Oh, I've done that.
I've had periods where I'mwriting 12 hours straight.
You know like.
Etienne (18:35):
Wow, 12 hours?
Are you on something?
Heidi (18:40):
No, something.
No, and and this is when I waswith my ex and he would he would
come up and be like have youeaten anything?
Here! Drink something!
Etienne (18:49):
Have you peed?
Heidi (18:50):
yeah, yeah, like had to check on me so yeah, it's
addictive.
Etienne (18:58):
Jeez.
Jane (18:59):
Heidi, you've done a lot of screenwriting too, is that
where you wanted to start, ordid you also come to that via a
circuitous route?
Heidi (19:17):
I think I've always wanted to be, you know, make
some kind of TV or movies.
My earliest memory of movieswas watching Star Wars at the
drive-in with my parents and meand my sister are PJs in our
sleeping bag and I am watchingthis movie and it is blowing my
little mind and I just remembergoing.
I want to do that Like I want.
I want to create something likethat and then had the Barbies
(19:37):
and the play acting Anytime Iplayed with my friends it was
like we were in a Charlie'sAngels episode.
We were all Charlie'sAngels and I'm creating these
scenarios that we have to savesomebody or get out of danger,
and so I was writing from veryyoung and I used to create
little books.
(19:58):
But what was crazy is I didn'tget a whole lot of support.
Nobody really fostered that ornurtured that in me.
And then, spending 10 years inthe Air Force, I feel like I
almost got every creativeinstinct almost beaten out of me
, you know.
(20:18):
So it was perfect when Ifinally got out.
And I did ecstasy for the firsttime and it made me so creative.
And when I went to college Itook every film related because
they didn't have a film schoolat my little college that I went
to.
But I took every film relatedclass.
I could take film criticism andany kind of creative writing.
(20:40):
So my minor was in English andmy major was in journalism.
So I was never going to be ajournalist.
No, not for me.
Etienne (20:50):
You do that for the writing part?
Heidi (20:52):
Yeah, yeah, it was just it was to be able to take the
photography classes and thecommunication classes, and yeah
it was mainly just so I couldtake the classes I wanted to
take and get all the writing inthat I wanted to get in and I
kind of self-taught,screenwriting self-taught, so I
read every book I could and janewas there when I wrote my first
screenplay, which I haverevisited and
Jane (21:16):
it's awful
Heidi (21:19):
the story so So the story is actually really
good.
It's based it's based on adream I had and it's really good
.
I would like to eventuallyrevisit it and rewrite it
Etienne (21:31):
yeah, it just sounds like maybe you need to rewrite
it then, if it's just a goodstory, yeah
Heidi (21:34):
yeah, yeah, but it was pretty cool to finally get one
done, and that was what 2006
no, phoebe was born, so she wasborn in 2007, so this must have
been 2008.
I think is when we were bothlike hitting our stride with
working on stuff together
no, that was because that was when we first started
(21:56):
hanging out.
I was writing,
Jane (21:57):
so it so this is the second half of 2007
Heidi (22:01):
because we, we did shiterature after that.
Jane (22:04):
Yes
Etienne (22:07):
We have mentioned that on here, haven't we like?
Jane (22:10):
No
Etienne (22:10):
You don't think so?
okay.
Heidi (22:12):
I think I mentioned it really quick about me and you uh
Etienne (22:15):
maybe when we were introducing ourselves
Heidi (22:16):
humor book Shiterature, yes
Jane (22:18):
just writing fun poop stories.
But I think that we're all veryversatile in the kinds of things
that we like to write about,and I think that that's
important, because if we wereall Stephen king, just writing
scary stuff all the time, well,even he, even he,
Etienne (22:30):
yeah, he definitely doesn't just do that.
Yeah, like, one of my favoritebooks by him is oh gosh, and the
title just escaped my mind.
Jane (22:38):
Is it The Stand?
Etienne (22:40):
No, well, The Stand is definitely one of them, but no,
that's not.
Oh, it's all right I've got thefollow-up book.
It's with him and peter straubwrote it together.
Black house is the oh thetalisman.
The talisman is one of myfavorite books by him and I
would say that is not really ahorror, but I mean, it was like
supernatural you know, yeah, butthe stand yeah yeah I mean when
(23:01):
I read the stand as a kid in myhorrible, horrible like growing
up years my horrible family Iwanted so much for the world to
just go away.
I was like, if that means I gotoo, I'm fine with that.
I just wanted to live the standso badly.
Yeah, I read that at 14 and
Jane (23:20):
You were really dark.
Etienne (23:21):
Oh, yes, well, it was a dark place yeah.
I mean mentally it was a darkplace.
Yeah, it wasn't not likeactually light dark, but yeah,
sorry, but yeah, the Talisman isone of my favorite Stephen King
books of all time.
It's a great book.
Jane (23:40):
I just love, actually, his book on writing.
I reread that periodically andactually I'm going to write it
down right now.
Etienne (23:47):
Oh, it's time to read it again.
Jane (23:48):
Yeah, it is time to read it again.
I think that it is such a greatpractical strategy approach and
I love it and it's goodreminders, even though I know
what good storytelling is when Isee it.
When I sit down to do it, I'mvery inspired by the idea that I
have in my head and thensometimes it's not manifesting
(24:09):
in the way that like it felt tome internally and that becomes
really frustrating and you haveto power through that.
(24:47):
And so I love re-reading thatbook because it just reminds you
,what you already know, butsometimes you forget! This is
why I think, we've all been towriter's conferences together
and we actually all met at awriter's conference.
We were all pitching.
And I think it's importantbecause writing is such an
isolating practice and you'redoing it alone.
It's just you and the thing.
You can brainstorm with otherpeople and you can have editing
and critique sessions withgroups, but the actual, It's
just your head, your ass in theseat and you're just trying to
do it and make it happen.
So, finding community to talkabout this weird thing that we
do when we're like I make stuffup, do you make stuff up?
Like, how do you make stuff up?
Like it's kind of like we're allstill playing
Etienne (25:02):
yeah
Jane (25:02):
We all still make believe but trying to make come alive
for other people, and I lovethat.
When you go to a conference, youget the creative juices flowing
again and I think that'shilarious.
How we met and how we met wasbecause of the Shiterature
Heidi (25:14):
yeah
Jane (25:14):
stuff.
Because we were all at aconference and Etty was
volunteering Etty overheard metalking to somebody else about
this project that Heidi and Ihad about these true stories
about bodily malfunctions, andshe heard me pitch it and she
was like I'm so interested, Ihave some stories to share with
you.
And then now we've all knowneach other and been friends ever
(25:36):
since, which is pretty cool.
And Heidi and I met because wewere both working on different
creative projects and had amutual friend who introduced us
and said oh, you guys shouldknow each other because you're
writing.
And it was almost like peoplewere like oh, these weird people
who still play, make believe,need to be around each other,
because people who don't do thatsometimes they're like
(25:56):
fascinated by it, but they'realso like I don't know what to
do.
Etienne (25:59):
Well, yeah, don't you hear a lot of the time it's like
I can't write anything.
That's usually when people saylike I'm a terrible writer.
That's what they say aboutthemselves.
Heidi (26:08):
I don't say that about myself.
How many times do you get thatthey say about themselves?
Somebody's saying, oh, youshould write this, I've got this
great idea, and they try.
I don't know how many people.
It's so bad
Etienne (26:24):
Oh, it's so bad.
Heidi (26:25):
I have my own ideas, you write your own stuff, yeah
Etienne (26:26):
and I'm not even published.
Imagine like when we actuallyever like actually I mean,
you're published, Jane, and youguys have shiterature, so you
are, technically, I am notpublished.
So if we ever got to the levelof fame where normal people know
what our books are.
If we say the titles, it wouldbe like busy, because people say
that shit to me now and I don't, I don't have anything out in
the world.
(26:47):
Oh, I've got this great story.
Like my neighbor who's 90, hewants me so bad to write some
story from his growing up yearsand I'm like, hmm, oh yeah, I
just ghost write your
Jane (27:00):
My dad wants me to write his memoirs.
And I'm like, no, first of allyou're retired and he's a very
good writer.
Etienne (27:14):
Really I didn't.
Jane (27:15):
I didn't know that my dad was a good writer.
He never talked about that.
He was a good writer.
My grandfather, his father,told me when I was in high
school I started winning a lotof awards for my writing, and I
sound like so.
.
.
But, I wrote competitively.
I had English teachers whobelieved in me, shout to Mrs.
Huey, Mrs.
Patsy Huey, Mrs Westaway andMrs Ward.
They would submit my stuff tothese writing contests without
(27:46):
telling me and then when I wouldwin it they'd be like guess
what?
And I will never forget.
In my AP English writing,literature and composition
course, mrs Westaway gave us allawards at the end of the year
that were tailored to us, mostlikely to.
They were funny some of them,but mine was most likely to be
published, and when I publishedmy first book I sent it to her
(28:08):
with a picture of thatcertificate that she had made
for me to show her.
I was just like, just so youknow.
Etienne (28:15):
She had to cry when she got that.
Oh my God.
Jane (28:18):
Oh totally.
She wrote me back and she wasjust like I got that and it
meant a lot to me and it justreally choked me up.
But she needed to know.
That was really inspirational tome and actually the first
teacher who encouraged me toenter a writing contest actually
shout out to Mr Baxter, samuelCornelius Baxter,
Etienne (28:32):
wow that's a name
Jane (28:41):
Totally a name.
And he made me read my story infront of the class, which is
like kind of terrifying at thetime, but it was the first time
I had written something like notmaking up stories about sharks,
but written something that wasjust completely it was a fantasy
, and that everybody in theclass was like enthralled and I
was like, oh, I might actuallybe good at this, maybe I should
do this, and so I would just,you know, I just kept at it, but
(29:01):
anyway, I just appreciated themso much for encouraging me.
I don't know there was a reasonwhy I was bringing up my english
teachers and now I don't evenknow,
Etienne (29:11):
That's the 50 year old brains for you.
Go down the tangent forget whyyou went there.
Jane (29:19):
Usually I'm pretty good about coming back to like why I
was talking about them, but Ithink that's important to have
people encourage you
Etienne (29:27):
well, yeah, because that was that conference, when I
met you guys, was when I wasasking people to tell me these
professionals who have read someof my work you know, I signed
up for one of the critiques.
I wanted them to tell me if Ishould just stop writing, like,
tell me to stop and I will.
I will try to stop because Ithink I'm wasting my time.
And that's when I, at thatconference, I got that second
(29:49):
place for my short story.
Yes, that was encouragement.
So I'm like, well, this must bea sign that I'm not supposed to
stop.
Okay, fine, I'll keep trying.
Heidi (29:59):
isn't that funny?
it does come in at the time,because when I finally wrote
something I was really proud of,it was all on my own.
All my previous stuff had kindof been workshopped, written by
a committee.
It felt like Kind of the magichad seeped out of the stories.
I finally wrote something goodthat I was proud of and I
(30:19):
thought I'll send this off to afew contests and see if I you
know make second round.
I just wanted validation,you're on the right track and I
ended up winning a bunch ofstuff or placing really high,
and so that was kind ofoverwhelming because I just
wanted to know is this any good?
You know, I think it's good itwas.
Yeah, getting that kind ofencouragement always feels
(30:42):
really good and I think it comesin at the right time to give
you encouragement keep going.
Etienne (30:48):
and I think, the fact that I've tried to stop before
and slowly go insane and have togo back to it like you know
what.
It doesn't matter if otherpeople are ever gonna read what
I write.
It's fine, like I just have tokeep writing it because I have
to stay sane in some fashion
Heidi (31:04):
I am at the point, I'm just writing self.
You know, I'm just trying toentertain myself, create the
stories I want to see or read.
Yeah, yeah
Jane (31:16):
But then it's authentic and I think if you do that, then
that authenticity comes throughthe page and somebody else will
be receptive to it.
At this point I know the marketis just so saturated because
the barriers to entry are downwith self-publishing and that
whole phenomenon, and so there'sso much stuff in the market
that you could put out thereyourself if you want.
And now you're thinking OK, itgets a little bit overwhelming.
(31:37):
But I think if you write thestory that you enjoy.
Etienne (31:40):
That you've worked on a lot, that you've made it the
best you can make it.
Heidi (31:44):
I think it's eventually going to happen Because I mean
there's so much AI stuff outthere now Like people using AI
Etienne (31:51):
Somebody put out I think it might have been the
Atlantic or the New York Timesor somebody.
They had a story written by aperson and then they gave AI
parameters and said write astory about this and you have to
include this, this and this.
And so it was basically asimilar story and they put both
of those out and said pick whichone the AI wrote.
And I totally picked.
I was so bored, within like aparagraph of reading the AI one,
(32:14):
I was like this is the.
AI one.
This cannot be a real person.
This is is horrible.
Heidi (32:18):
Oh yeah, it's garbage.
There's got to be some humanityin the writing.
Jane (32:23):
Well, it's missing the human element.
Heidi (32:26):
They can replace writers with AI.
Etienne (32:29):
Maybe, eventually, maybe eventually but, I think it
would have to be at a time whenthe AI actually has its own
intelligence, like if it has itsown humanity.
Heidi (32:40):
But it's never going to have that first love.
It's never going to go.
Gonna have that first love.
It's never gonna go throughthat first heartbreak.
You know it's never gonna bethe target of bullies like
seriously, it's never going tohave the experience and so how
can it write with any kind ofauthenticity that's going to
resonate with other human beingsright like it can never have
(33:05):
the depth and the creativitythat a human has
Jane (33:08):
because we are actually going to do a whole episode on
ai writing.
I think we should dive into it
Heidi (33:12):
fear of death.
Jane (33:13):
There's no I think that it also doesn't have the capacity
to die in the same way that wedo, and like I think that.
I think that if you don't havethat existential stuff going on,
it isn't going to ring true,but it'll.
It'll be able to haveexperiences,
Heidi (33:27):
I think it's a great tool , like I think.
If writers are using it as likea tool, yay, but it's never
going to be able to crank out anovel that's compelling or
interesting
Etienne (33:40):
or that's original.
Heidi (33:42):
It's not possible.
Jane (33:43):
It can only do derivative stuff, and I think that we get
our ideas from the ether.
There's a book called Big Magicthat I know, heidi, you and I
both read.
Okay, so Big Magic is byElizabeth Gilbert, who wrote Eat
Pray, love and the Signature ofAll Things, and she's like a
phenomenal writer, but hertheory is that and I've heard
(34:04):
other people actually articulatethis theory too, but that ideas
are living entities, right, andthey're just kind of.
They exist in the ethersomewhere and we don't.
Science maybe one day will beexplaining it to us, but they're
looking for the vessel throughwhich they could tell the story,
and that's maybe like wherethis idea of the muse comes from
, right.
So if you're waiting, you, ok,come on you know like they're
(34:26):
looking for like which vehicleis the most open and ready to
tell the story?
For whatever lived experiencethey've had, that's going to
make them
Etienne (34:33):
oh wow Really
Jane (34:35):
Time to bring this to life .
Heidi (34:36):
Mmhh
Jane (34:37):
.
Because sometimes you feel like,ok, this just came from
somewhere, I don't know, andmaybe that's what it is.
And if you don't latch onto itand run with it, that's kind of
like why you have thatexperience of you know, six
months later somebody else wrotethe thing that you were
thinking about, but you didn'tact on it.
Well, that idea probably saidwell, I knocked on your door,
you didn't respond.
(34:57):
I got to get into the worldsome way.
So they go to the next personwho maybe will have the
discipline to bring it all theway there.
And I do think that there'ssomething to that, because there
are some times where the ideais based on something
autobiographical, and then Ithink that it's mostly you, and
then maybe a muse is like okay,but what if it?
But what if it reads minds?
And you're like Ooh, thank you.
(35:17):
Weird idea that came fromnowhere, you know, and then you
just make that happen and it'slike a true fusion.
And then there are other thingsthat hit you that you're like I
have no idea what that is, butI'm going to run with it and I
think that there's maybesomething to there being like
some kind of weird spiritualsymbiosis.
That goes on and you hearsongwriters talk like I'm
obsessed with the Beatles andPaul McCartney talked about that
(35:38):
with like a couple of songs.
Like he just woke up andyesterday was just a tune that
he had in his head and he has noidea where it came from
Heidi (35:44):
having wonder and awe of the world and being yeah, being
open to getting those downloadsfrom the ether from the universe
.
Jane (35:52):
So I think being open is kind of like the first rule
Etienne (35:55):
and every body of water There could be a shark in a
puddle.
Jane (36:00):
Yeah, next thing you know there's a shark that lives in
your backyard
Etienne (36:03):
oh, I mean I knew I was afraid of the deep, that there
was a diving section at the poolthat I went to when I was a kid
and I saw jaws probably tooyoung and I thought the jaws
could be in any deep body ofwater.
So I really did not like goingin that diving area.
I would try to stay veryshallow in it.
(36:23):
I wouldn't try to dive deep.
I'd be like I'm just going togo feet first, I'm not going to
get swallowed by the shark inthe pool.
So, jane, yeah, I'm right,along with all those kids, I
would have totally believed yourstory of the shark in the pond.
It was a pond, right?
Jane (36:39):
It was a pond.
My friend Greg, who is actuallyhas an irrational fear that
there could be a shark anywhere,at any time, in any body of
water
Etienne (36:46):
Like anywhere any time in the bathtub.
Jane (36:48):
He would probably be like well, listen, one of those
suckers could have gone on theriver because the pond was
connected to a river and endedup in your pond.
But sometimes he would be in apool and be like looking around,
like I don't know, maybe I waslike that's too many
psychedelics for you.
You're done now.
Heidi (37:04):
I've had a dream of a shark in the swimming pool and
then, right after that happened,that shark came out of its tank
in the Bahamas and went downthe water slide,
Etienne (37:14):
went down the water slide.
Heidi (37:15):
Yes, yes, and it went into the pool.
Etienne (37:18):
Oh, come on.
Heidi (37:19):
Everything was closed Like it was in the middle of the
night, so nobody was going toget hurt.
But it got out of its tank,went down the water slide and
was in the swimming pool.
So I was right after I had thatshark in the pool dream and I
thought, oh my God, it actuallyhappened.
Etienne (37:39):
Maybe he had just been really, really wanting to use
that water slide.
so he found a way
Heidi (37:42):
he wanted to get out of there.
Jane (37:44):
I don't blame him, poor.
Thing.
I don't think he was living outhis water slide dream.
He was just trying to escape bywhatever means necessary,
Etienne (37:51):
get the hell out of here.
Heidi (37:55):
Can you imagine if that had happened during the day,
though
Etienne (37:58):
In the daytime?
Oh my God, Kid goes down theslide shark following.
I'm like what the hell?
Heidi (38:05):
It would be something out of a horror movie.
Etienne (38:08):
She was like the mom's, like I thought it was bad when
I found the lady would tickle inthe aura of the cactus so now
there's a freaking shark behindmy kid
Jane (38:15):
like a hundred percent but I think
Heidi (38:17):
, and if you haven't listened to episode two about
the tickling of the cactus, yes,and go, go back Be safe
Jane (38:25):
with your psychedelics, but they can also inspire
stories and I think thatsometimes people like you look
at a news story and then that'swhere you get inspiration, right
.
So somebody saw that and said,okay, let's make a story where a
shark is escaping an aquariumor like something like that.
I know that Edgar Allan Poe didthat with the Cask of a
Montalado, like he read anewspaper story about they found
(38:48):
evidence of somebody havingbeen buried alive in a wall you
know, somewhere and he was like,ooh, like, what would make
somebody do that?
And the real life corpse thatwas found chained to a wall
happened in Virginia.
But then he sets it in Italyand adds all of these other
elements of someone being justfeeling so insulted at the core
(39:08):
of them that the only revenge islike I'm going to lure this
person into a catacomb and wallthem up there alive and just
leave them there and you're justthinking, oh my God, the kicker
in that story is that you neverfind out what the insult was.
Etienne (39:20):
And like what actually the inciting incident of why
this happened?
Jane (39:24):
No, I used to have wonderful discussions with my
students of like, okay, what,what could it have been,
Etienne (39:30):
what would be so awful that would.
Or it's just a psychotic personwho needs hardly any inciting
incident.
They're like, yeah, he calledme an asshole.
Jane (39:38):
Yeah, and therefore he must die, yeah,
Heidi (39:58):
and the most horrible way
Jane (40:00):
But, I think that that's one of the awesome things about
writing is that it's a safeplace to explore all kinds of
things.
Nobody actually gets hurt, juston the page.
Although, one of the fun factsI was gonna bring today--as
you're writing, your brainactually is going to those
places where it may actually go,if you're experiencing it for
real, and so it makes mesometimes a little bit wary of
what am I going to write aboutand what places am I willing to
go, and it can be a safe placeto experiment with things.
And also you need to be like,okay, what kind of headspace do
(40:21):
I want to be in and for how long?
But I've put that idea out intothe universe, so I haven't had
any ideas come to me yet that Iwasn't willing to take on, and
actually that's not true.
My next book is one that I havebeen holding on to for a very
long time, but it is going to bethe next thing.
Heidi (40:38):
It's going to be awesome.
Jane (40:39):
I'm going to do it and it's different than what I
thought it was going to be,because I have started outlining
it and I've written like thefirst chapter.
But it's definitely it's goingto be weird and yeah, I'm just
going to definitely not be alonewhen I write about it.
I'm going to have to have.
I'm going to have to getanother dog.
I need to have two dogs in thedark with me now.
Etienne (40:56):
You need two dogs.
Jane (40:57):
I need two dogs.
Etienne (41:02):
This is a two dog book, so I need two dogs.
Jane (41:05):
It's a two dog story and, like Stephen King, this actually
came the seed forIt was from a dream, so you know
,
I've been anticipating this forhow long now?
20 years.
Oh my God
Heidi (41:19):
Almost 20 years.
I remember you telling me
Etienne (41:22):
what the story is and you can't talk about it.
No, no, no, get off, yeah, andso I remember you telling me I
might not know what the story isand you can't talk about it on
here, so we're going to have toget off so you can tell me.
Heidi (41:28):
I've been anticipating this one.
It's going to be good.
Etienne (41:33):
Everybody's like that's not fair
Heidi (41:35):
and what's great is nobody else has written it, so
this story is being so patientwith her waiting all this time
Etienne (41:45):
you're so lucky it didn't move on.
It's the whole muse thing Likeit's going to move on to the
next person.
You're lucky if it's been 20years.
Heidi (41:51):
No, this she's born.
To write this she's born towrite this.
Jane (41:54):
I think that it didn't move on because it's grounded in
multiple things personal dreams, family history, other stuff.
So I think that's why I didn'tmove on.
So don't move on, I'm gonna doit, I'm gonna do it
Heidi (42:06):
it's way to this long.
It's yours,
Etienne (42:08):
I mean you're in chapter one
Heidi (42:10):
I can't wait.
Etienne (42:17):
Holy cow.
Heidi (42:17):
yeah
Jane (42:17):
yeah.
Thank you for hanging andlisten to us talk about what
inspired us to become writers.
And if you're out there lookingto do that, if you've been
telling yourself stories or youwere playing with your Barbies
and you want to explore thatspace again and be playful, then
just do it.
It's therapeutic, it'sexhilarating, frustrating,
exhausting, but always worth it.
Etienne (42:32):
Yes, definitely
Heidi (42:33):
Tell your story.
Go for it.
Etienne (42:35):
Leave the world a better place than how you found
it.
And hopefully that means givingyour stories out in the world,
getting your art out there,whatever that art may be.
Heidi (42:45):
And that's our show.
You've been listening to theWomen Are Plotting.
If you have a story you'd liketo share or have any comments,
we'd love to hear from you.
Email us at info@thewomenareplottingcom, and, of
course, you can find us on allthe socials.
Thanks and until next time.
Be safe and be excellent toeach other.
Thank you.
Welcome listeners.
This is The Women Are Plotting.
I'm Etienne Rose Olivier, andI'm here with my friends and
co-hosts Heidi Willis and JaneGari.
With this being our firstepisode, we'll introduce
ourselves to you.
My first name is Etienne, butmy friends call me Etty.
(00:22):
I'm a 53-year-old Gen X woman.
I'm a writer.
I don't have anything publishedyet, but hopefully soon.
My latest writing that I'vebeen working on for a while now
is a memoir which covers thefirst two years after my
then-husband asked for a divorce.
I'm also a registered nurse,and I've been one since 2008.
(00:43):
I've taken care of bothchildren and adults, although
right now, I work with childrenThanks to being a writer and a
nurse.
I have a wide range ofinterests and specialties.
Jane (00:58):
I'm Jane Gari.
I'm friends with Etty.
I was an English teacher forabout 20 years and also started
writing books, also Gen X, 51years old, go Gen X, and I also
occasionally dabble in somestand-up comedy, but don't ask
me to tell a joke because I suckat it.
(01:19):
I'm just a storyteller andenjoy telling all kinds of
stories.
I do have a memoir out that'strue story family drama, and
right now I am shopping a novelcalled Love in Shakespeare's
Shadow.
So wish me luck on this writingjourney.
And also, joining us is ourother writer friend.
Heidi (01:40):
Hi, I'm Heidi Willis and I'm a screenwriter working on an
MFA right now.
We also wrote a humor booktogether, Jane and I did a few
years back, still looking for apublisher for that.
Oh and yeah, 52, gen Xer.
So yeah, we're all Gen X here,have some years under our belts.
Etienne (02:05):
Today's episode is Why W e Became Writers and we start
out with our little fun factrelated to our episode.
And today mine is about RayBradbury.
He did not go to college, heonly graduated high school.
But he said that he went intothe library and never came back
out again, like he literallyjust read.
(02:27):
And that was his collegeeducation.
And when he was 12 years old hewent to see Mr.
Electro on Labor day weekend in1932 50, 000 bolts of
electricity was pulsed throughthis guy's body and he had a
sword in his hand, a flamingsword, supposedly, and Ray
Bradbury is in the front row.
And he touched Ray Bradbury onboth shoulders Sounds a little
(02:49):
bit like he was being knightedby this guy and also on the tip
of his nose.
So if it was flaming, this isreally scary to me.
And he said live forever.
And supposedly Ray Bradburythought God, that's wonderful,
how do you do that?
And he said he left thecarnival that day and he started
writing and he never stopped.
That's how he lives forever,forever and ever, because he's
(03:11):
one of the best of all time.
Heidi (03:14):
Mine's about an author as well.
Etienne (03:16):
Oh nice.
Heidi (03:17):
My inspiration growing up was Stephen King.
That was one of the things mymom would always get me.
Was you know the latesthardcover of Stephen King.
So I was looking for fun factson Stephen King.
So he said in a 1982 interviewthat he had had a lifelong fear
of the dark and sleeps with thelight on.
Etienne (03:38):
Oh my God, really?
Heidi (03:40):
Isn't that wild?
I don't know if it's still.
That's crazy, yeah.
Etienne (03:45):
Like that.
Heidi (03:46):
Yeah, I guess he gets inspiration from you know what
he fears in the dark.
But and he's also a hugeGrateful Dead fan, yeah, so I
thought that was kind of funny,you know, piggybacking off of
our last episode.
Jane (04:04):
That is fabulous and also it's actually somehow comforting
that Stephen King is afraid ofthe dark and I'm still like I'm
only afraid of the dark if I'malone.
If someone else is with me inthe dark, I feel like I'm fine
but if I'm alone.
.
.
Etienne (04:17):
Maybe somebody is always with you in the dark.
Jane (04:20):
Thanks for that.
Heidi (04:24):
You are never alone.
Etienne (04:25):
Oh, she's turning into something.
Heidi (04:28):
None of us are alone.
Jane (04:30):
That is true, but if there is not another human being or a
dog in the room, in the darkthen I don't like it If I have a
dog in the room with me, I'mokay.
But if I am the only, if I'm theonly living thing that I can
perceive.
There you go alone in the dark.
Not a fan of that feeling.
Heidi (04:51):
What ifs right?
Yeah.
Jane (04:53):
Yes, and apparently Stephen King's did too, but he
was like you know what?
I'm gonna, I'm gonna make thislucrative as I sit here and look
at, like novellas on my
Heidi (05:02):
Yes.
Jane (05:03):
His Four Past Midnight collection up on my shelf and
also on my shelf I'm seeing outof the corner of my eye, is
Something WickedThis Way Comes by Ray
Bradbury and what you weretelling us, Etty, about the fun
fact about Ray Bradbury.
I feel like that he must havemade that true experience into
that story.
I don't know if either of youhave ever read Something Wicked
(05:24):
This Way Comes it's about thiscarnival that comes down and
this guy who's running thecarnival is trying to live
forever and the carousel playslike the song that the carousel
plays is actually the funeralmarch in reverse, and it's just
creepy creepy stuff.
Etienne (05:38):
Ooh, you give me chills .
Jane (05:39):
and it's so
Etienne (05:41):
Yeah, I did read it, but it's been a while.
Jane (05:48):
It's been a while.
taught that book when I wasstill teaching high school, back
to back with Macbeth, becausethe title Something Wicked This
Way Comes is from the witchesand there are a lot of
references to Macbeth in it.
But I just I love Ray Bradburyalso and it's super cool.
But my fun fact about writingis about writer's block and that
I was doing some research onwriter's block and the consensus
of the research is it's a myth.
Etienne (06:08):
It's a myth.
Jane (06:09):
Writer's block is a myth and what is really happening is
you're either being paralyzed byyour own perfectionism or
you're just have a fear offailure and you're afraid okay,
if I do write something, it'sgoing to be shitty, so let me
just not do it at all.
Etienne (06:23):
Oh.
I can see that.
Jane (06:25):
I find that the real cure to writer's block is just to be
okay with writing somethingshitty and fix it later, or
change my environment yeah, gofor a walk and then come back
and sit with it and be like it'sfine, it's not going to be and
to not try to edit placeholders.
Just be like all right putsomething cool in here later.
(06:46):
Yeah, great.
Etienne (06:47):
Awesome metaphor goes here.
Heidi (06:49):
She leaves.
Jane (06:53):
Oh my gosh.
Awesome metaphor goes here.
That's so great.
Heidi (06:57):
Because a lot of times, once you keep going, the
solution reveals itself later onin the story and then you're
able to go back and go oh, myGod, this is so perfect.
And now I realize why I had toskip this part, because so yeah,
it's definitely perfectionismand your own head.
Etienne (07:15):
And one thing about Ray Bradbury.
That's really cool.
I actually have.
I went to a signing, a booksigning, so I have two books
signed by him.
Heidi (07:21):
No way, oh my God.
Etienne (07:24):
Dandelion Wine.
It was the only Ray Bradburyhardcover that I owned, and
Something Wicked This Way Comespaperback.
I had him signed, so I have twothings signed by him.
I know.
Jane (07:34):
That's so great.
Etienne (07:36):
I know.
Heidi (07:37):
When was this?
Etienne (07:38):
This was in the 90s.
Yeah, this was definitely whenI was still in community college
.
Yeah, I think that's when Ifound out about I mean, I knew
of him but like found out abouthis story about how he was
self-educated with the library.
He literally was like you don'tneed to go to college, you just
go to the library.
Literally.
Heidi (07:57):
Well, that's what they say.
You know, if you want to be awriter, read.
You just read everything youcan and write as often as you
can, and yeah you're a writer.
Etienne (08:09):
In the last five years, I really upped my reading game,
so I'm reading at least a booka week now since then, and it
really has changed how easilythe words come, like the words
just come, and I know when it'sgood it flows.
It has its own rhythm, andevery time you start to read
something new you have to getinto their rhythm.
Everybody has their own rhythmof how it sounds in your brain
(08:32):
when you're reading it, and, uh,it always is like bumpy, like
the first five or ten pages, andI'm reading somebody else's
work, and then it clicks and I'mgood.
Then I can start reading at anormal pace where I feel like
they're just talking to me.
Does anybody want to go firsttalking about why they became a
writer, though?
Was the impetus or the startingpoint?
Jane (08:53):
I feel like I started telling stories before I started
writing them down.
Heidi (08:58):
Barbies.
Jane (09:00):
True to, I guess.
Heidi (09:02):
Yeah, I was creating stories with Barbies.
Jane (09:10):
They had backstories,
Etienne (09:10):
Oh backstories.
Jane (09:11):
Oh my gosh.
Heidi (09:11):
My sister was so annoyed with me because I was like I was
incontrol of the storyline
Etienne (09:16):
Oh no, did she try to add in?
And you're like
Heidi (09:19):
No, how I got it goes I was like that.
That's tired.
a tyrant.
You know, like the head writer,it will be my way
Jane (09:29):
Oh my gosh, the barbie green room.
You're just like no, not.
Or the writer's room,
Heidi (09:34):
Yes, yeah
Jane (09:36):
That's funny.
Etienne (09:36):
Oh my god.
Heidi (09:37):
Go ahead.
Sorry.
Jane (09:40):
I'm just thinking about.
Like I had different storylines.
I would then pick up.
I had a barbie who was in aband and they went on tour and
there were just all kinds ofthings that happened with that.
But my very first where Irealized the power of
storytelling, I was four yearsold.
I was living in Connecticut andwe had this pond in our
backyard.
Just was talking to my littlefriends that we were hanging out
playing and I was just likethere's a shark that lives in
(10:03):
this pond and if you get tooclose it eats children.
So we have to be very careful.
And I knew I was making it up.
I thought that they also knew Iwas making it up and that we
were just having fun.
But they did not.
They believed me and they werelike, oh my God.
And then what happened?
Because I was like and then youknow, years ago, and I was
making up that I gave the sharka backstory, the whole thing,
(10:24):
like you know, barbies, but withsharks and they were enthralled
.
And then I realized theybelieved me.
Now I'm not proud of this.
I should have corrected themimmediately and I'm just making
this up.
We're playing a game, but theybelieve me and I saw the power
in that and I was like maybe Iwon't tell them right away.
You know, I let it go on for alittle bit, but I was stopped
(10:45):
because some of the parents inthe neighborhood told me to stop
.
Etienne (10:48):
Oh, were you scaring them that bad?
Jane (10:50):
I was scaring them where, then they were thinking like any
body of water could have ashark in it.
Etienne (10:55):
Gosh.
Jane (10:57):
But what I realized in that moment, though, is that you
could, with your words, spin upa whole different world, and I
loved.
I also lovedyou know reading at a very young
age and I always like you know.
Heidi (11:09):
It's a library.
Jane (11:09):
Yes, it is a library, right, and my mom always took us
to the library and I loved howreading opened up worlds for me
in my head and me telling thatstory about the shark was like
me then making my own world forthe first time, and I just loved
how someone else built a worldfor me that I could explore in a
book and I just wanted to dothat for other people.
(11:29):
And then, as I grew up and hadthings happen in my life that
took my power away, I then heldon to writing even more tightly,
like I started writing storiespretty young and just and never
stopped.
And then ifI do stop.
I feel weird, you know.
I feel like imbalanced, andsometimes it'll take me a while
(11:50):
to figure out why I feelimbalanced.
I'm like, oh, it's because I'mnot having a regular writing
practice.
And as soon as I do that, thenI feel balanced again.
Etienne (11:58):
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about with
that.
I've tried to quit before acouple of times.
Jane (12:02):
It's a drug.
Etienne (12:03):
Yeah, no, no, it's just because, like you want to
create art, thinking you know,maybe eventually down the road
somebody else will see it.
It's not just you.
I've been writing since 1994,basically, I mean, 96 was when I
wrote my first novel, but Istarted writing screenplays in
94.
So I had two years of that.
(12:24):
But you go that long, that'sover 30 years of nobody else
really seeing your work, exceptfor your friends or people you
paid and look at it and help youwith it, and you start to think
why am I doing this?
Do I really?
Why am I?
Am I why?
Why?
So?
Multiple times at least twoseparate occasions I've tried to
quit and time has gone by and Istart to feel more and more
(12:48):
unmoored and just not balancedin my body and in my brain and I
start to go slowly insane.
And then, if I start to writeagain, that completely goes away
and I'm normal again and it'slike I need to be creating
something all the time.
Otherwise I just don't feelokay with myself.
(13:13):
For me my mother was a poetfamous in her own mind.
She never was out in the worldwith her writing.
I was her sole audience and sheraised me to be so positive and
tell her how brilliant she was.
So when I had to start writingpapers for school in middle
school she was a really heavyeditor of my work.
She had to see everything.
She made me show her my workand she would edit and it would
(13:35):
sound nothing like me anymoreand I would turn it in because
she made me.
I had no choice and at first Igot good grades and then finally
I hit on a teacher I think itwas in ninth grade who gave me a
C on a paper that technically Ididn't write one word of it
because my mother at that pointhad just taken over completely.
She's like what am I writingabout?
Didn't even let me even try.
(13:57):
I was stunted on my own growthof like actually being a writer
for myself.
And that teacher gave me a Cand I think it was to show me it
wasn't like the paper was bad.
She just knew, I think, that Ididn't write it and she was
trying to tell me.
I told my mom, I think I haveto be writing my own papers from
now on, otherwise I'm going tolike fail out of school.
So it took me a little while tolearn how to write at the same
(14:20):
level as my peers, and so thattook me about a couple of years
probably, but by the time I wasa senior in high school I was
definitely on the same level asall my other cohorts in school
and I still really wasn't intowriting.
Heidi (14:32):
Yeah, I saw kids having the same thing, like the parents
were doing their art projectsfor them.
Etienne (14:40):
Not surprising, I mean.
So my mom, like that was herbig claim to fame in her mind
was that she was this amazingwriter.
So we wanted to livevicariously through my school
work for some reason cause shewasn't turning in her own work
into the real world of, like,the world.
So when I was in college, I wasa Radio, TV, Film major, first
time around and I was a filmproduction emphasis.
So I was trying to be a filmdirector.
(15:07):
That's what I wanted to be.
But there was the one finalclass that I needed.
That was so impacted like itwas so hard to get this class
that I knew I'd have to stickaround school and keep taking
other classes that just to fillin the time so I could wait
around to get this one classthat it was going to take me a
year and a half possibly to getthis class and I was done with
everything else.
It was just me wasting my timeif I was waiting around for this
(15:29):
class.
And I went to my advisor and Iwas like this is ridiculous.
I just need this one class.
Why don't they just makeanother class?
Like everybody's having thisproblem.
And she's like, well, you can'tdo.
You know it's a number ofcameras, a number of editing
bays.
And I'm like, yes, I understand, but still.
And she's like, well, you couldchange to screenwriting and you
could graduate this semester.
You just have to take this oneother screenwriting class.
(15:52):
And I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, Ican do that that's fine and so
I went and I took that I had towrite a full-length screenplay
for the class and I think Iended up having like 19 units
that semester and this was threeof those was me writing a full
screenplay and having all theseother classes.
But there was one night I satdown to write and it was 10
(16:14):
o'clock at night.
I was just giving myself anhour to write and I looked up
and it was two o'clock in themorning and I was like what?
Oh my God, I just went to someplace I've never been to before
and it was amazing and I steppedinto this bubble of artistry.
Not that what I produced wasall that great, I'm just saying
I went to a place that I wantedto go to a lot.
(16:35):
That's when I decided, oh, Ilike this, this is good.
I didn't change fromscreenwritings until I realized
I'm just not a schmoozer.
I'm in LA but I'm not the rightkind of person who's going to
make the right connections andbe out there schmoozing and
doing Harvey Weinstein to likeget myself out there.
So I'm just going to write books.
So it was like in 96 when Iwrote my first book and I wrote
(16:58):
it in 30 days at my aunt's housein New Jersey and I found that
book not too long ago and readit.
It's so bad.
It's so bad, we all have to havesomething.
Yeah, we all have to startsomewhere.
Heidi (17:13):
It's great to go back to your old stuff and see how far
you've come, because you're like, oh wow, I used to think this
was awesome and this is terrible.
Etienne (17:20):
Yeah, and they'll let other people read it.
I actually got people to readthat book.
I'm like, oh, I'm soembarrassed.
How do I just go back in timeand you'd never talk about this
book.
Heidi (17:39):
Give them their time back .
I was trying today for my funfact, to try to find has there
(18:13):
ever been a writer who sort ofback-stepped into the profession
like I feel like I did?
I was really trying to not be awriter.
And my mom was making it notfun for me in the beginning,
obviously.
I was kinda pushed into it, butfound out I really liked it.
But I couldn't really findanybody.
I mean, I found some writerswhere they talked about they
don't particularly enjoy writingsometimes.
But it's not like they, youknow, came upon it like I did.
This, this is not what I meantto do with my life, but I like
it lot, you.
?
know,
You the magic of the storytelling part of it.
Yeah, yeah.
Etienne (18:17):
I really love those times.
I mean it happens to me all thetime where I just sit down and
you start and like hours aregone.
You're like how did that happen?
Like they just disappeared.
Heidi (18:28):
Oh, I've done that.
I've had periods where I'mwriting 12 hours straight.
You know like.
Etienne (18:35):
Wow, 12 hours?
Are you on something?
Heidi (18:40):
No, something.
No, and and this is when I waswith my ex and he would he would
come up and be like have youeaten anything?
Here! Drink something!
Etienne (18:49):
Have you peed?
Heidi (18:50):
yeah, yeah, like had to check on me so yeah, it's
addictive.
Etienne (18:58):
Jeez.
Jane (18:59):
Heidi, you've done a lot of screenwriting too, is that
where you wanted to start, ordid you also come to that via a
circuitous route?
Heidi (19:17):
I think I've always wanted to be, you know, make
some kind of TV or movies.
My earliest memory of movieswas watching Star Wars at the
drive-in with my parents and meand my sister are PJs in our
sleeping bag and I am watchingthis movie and it is blowing my
little mind and I just remembergoing.
I want to do that Like I want.
I want to create something likethat and then had the Barbies
(19:37):
and the play acting Anytime Iplayed with my friends it was
like we were in a Charlie'sAngels episode.
We were all Charlie'sAngels and I'm creating these
scenarios that we have to savesomebody or get out of danger,
and so I was writing from veryyoung and I used to create
little books.
(19:58):
But what was crazy is I didn'tget a whole lot of support.
Nobody really fostered that ornurtured that in me.
And then, spending 10 years inthe Air Force, I feel like I
almost got every creativeinstinct almost beaten out of me
, you know.
(20:18):
So it was perfect when Ifinally got out.
And I did ecstasy for the firsttime and it made me so creative.
And when I went to college Itook every film related because
they didn't have a film schoolat my little college that I went
to.
But I took every film relatedclass.
I could take film criticism andany kind of creative writing.
(20:40):
So my minor was in English andmy major was in journalism.
So I was never going to be ajournalist.
No, not for me.
Etienne (20:50):
You do that for the writing part?
Heidi (20:52):
Yeah, yeah, it was just it was to be able to take the
photography classes and thecommunication classes, and yeah
it was mainly just so I couldtake the classes I wanted to
take and get all the writing inthat I wanted to get in and I
kind of self-taught,screenwriting self-taught, so I
read every book I could and janewas there when I wrote my first
screenplay, which I haverevisited and
Jane (21:16):
it's awful
Heidi (21:19):
the story so So the story is actually really
good.
It's based it's based on adream I had and it's really good
.
I would like to eventuallyrevisit it and rewrite it
Etienne (21:31):
yeah, it just sounds like maybe you need to rewrite
it then, if it's just a goodstory, yeah
Heidi (21:34):
yeah, yeah, but it was pretty cool to finally get one
done, and that was what 2006
no, phoebe was born, so she wasborn in 2007, so this must have
been 2008.
I think is when we were bothlike hitting our stride with
working on stuff together
no, that was because that was when we first started
(21:56):
hanging out.
I was writing,
Jane (21:57):
so it so this is the second half of 2007
Heidi (22:01):
because we, we did shiterature after that.
Jane (22:04):
Yes
Etienne (22:07):
We have mentioned that on here, haven't we like?
Jane (22:10):
No
Etienne (22:10):
You don't think so?
okay.
Heidi (22:12):
I think I mentioned it really quick about me and you uh
Etienne (22:15):
maybe when we were introducing ourselves
Heidi (22:16):
humor book Shiterature, yes
Jane (22:18):
just writing fun poop stories.
But I think that we're all veryversatile in the kinds of things
that we like to write about,and I think that that's
important, because if we wereall Stephen king, just writing
scary stuff all the time, well,even he, even he,
Etienne (22:30):
yeah, he definitely doesn't just do that.
Yeah, like, one of my favoritebooks by him is oh gosh, and the
title just escaped my mind.
Jane (22:38):
Is it The Stand?
Etienne (22:40):
No, well, The Stand is definitely one of them, but no,
that's not.
Oh, it's all right I've got thefollow-up book.
It's with him and peter straubwrote it together.
Black house is the oh thetalisman.
The talisman is one of myfavorite books by him and I
would say that is not really ahorror, but I mean, it was like
supernatural you know, yeah, butthe stand yeah yeah I mean when
(23:01):
I read the stand as a kid in myhorrible, horrible like growing
up years my horrible family Iwanted so much for the world to
just go away.
I was like, if that means I gotoo, I'm fine with that.
I just wanted to live the standso badly.
Yeah, I read that at 14 and
Jane (23:20):
You were really dark.
Etienne (23:21):
Oh, yes, well, it was a dark place yeah.
I mean mentally it was a darkplace.
Yeah, it wasn't not likeactually light dark, but yeah,
sorry, but yeah, the Talisman isone of my favorite Stephen King
books of all time.
It's a great book.
Jane (23:40):
I just love, actually, his book on writing.
I reread that periodically andactually I'm going to write it
down right now.
Etienne (23:47):
Oh, it's time to read it again.
Jane (23:48):
Yeah, it is time to read it again.
I think that it is such a greatpractical strategy approach and
I love it and it's goodreminders, even though I know
what good storytelling is when Isee it.
When I sit down to do it, I'mvery inspired by the idea that I
have in my head and thensometimes it's not manifesting
(24:09):
in the way that like it felt tome internally and that becomes
really frustrating and you haveto power through that.
(24:47):
And so I love re-reading thatbook because it just reminds you
,what you already know, butsometimes you forget! This is
why I think, we've all been towriter's conferences together
and we actually all met at awriter's conference.
We were all pitching.
And I think it's importantbecause writing is such an
isolating practice and you'redoing it alone.
It's just you and the thing.
You can brainstorm with otherpeople and you can have editing
and critique sessions withgroups, but the actual, It's
just your head, your ass in theseat and you're just trying to
do it and make it happen.
So, finding community to talkabout this weird thing that we
do when we're like I make stuffup, do you make stuff up?
Like, how do you make stuff up?
Like it's kind of like we're allstill playing
Etienne (25:02):
yeah
Jane (25:02):
We all still make believe but trying to make come alive
for other people, and I lovethat.
When you go to a conference, youget the creative juices flowing
again and I think that'shilarious.
How we met and how we met wasbecause of the Shiterature
Heidi (25:14):
yeah
Jane (25:14):
stuff.
Because we were all at aconference and Etty was
volunteering Etty overheard metalking to somebody else about
this project that Heidi and Ihad about these true stories
about bodily malfunctions, andshe heard me pitch it and she
was like I'm so interested, Ihave some stories to share with
you.
And then now we've all knowneach other and been friends ever
(25:36):
since, which is pretty cool.
And Heidi and I met because wewere both working on different
creative projects and had amutual friend who introduced us
and said oh, you guys shouldknow each other because you're
writing.
And it was almost like peoplewere like oh, these weird people
who still play, make believe,need to be around each other,
because people who don't do thatsometimes they're like
(25:56):
fascinated by it, but they'realso like I don't know what to
do.
Etienne (25:59):
Well, yeah, don't you hear a lot of the time it's like
I can't write anything.
That's usually when people saylike I'm a terrible writer.
That's what they say aboutthemselves.
Heidi (26:08):
I don't say that about myself.
How many times do you get thatthey say about themselves?
Somebody's saying, oh, youshould write this, I've got this
great idea, and they try.
I don't know how many people.
It's so bad
Etienne (26:24):
Oh, it's so bad.
Heidi (26:25):
I have my own ideas, you write your own stuff, yeah
Etienne (26:26):
and I'm not even published.
Imagine like when we actuallyever like actually I mean,
you're published, Jane, and youguys have shiterature, so you
are, technically, I am notpublished.
So if we ever got to the levelof fame where normal people know
what our books are.
If we say the titles, it wouldbe like busy, because people say
that shit to me now and I don't, I don't have anything out in
the world.
(26:47):
Oh, I've got this great story.
Like my neighbor who's 90, hewants me so bad to write some
story from his growing up yearsand I'm like, hmm, oh yeah, I
just ghost write your
Jane (27:00):
My dad wants me to write his memoirs.
And I'm like, no, first of allyou're retired and he's a very
good writer.
Etienne (27:14):
Really I didn't.
Jane (27:15):
I didn't know that my dad was a good writer.
He never talked about that.
He was a good writer.
My grandfather, his father,told me when I was in high
school I started winning a lotof awards for my writing, and I
sound like so.
.
.
But, I wrote competitively.
I had English teachers whobelieved in me, shout to Mrs.
Huey, Mrs.
Patsy Huey, Mrs Westaway andMrs Ward.
They would submit my stuff tothese writing contests without
(27:46):
telling me and then when I wouldwin it they'd be like guess
what?
And I will never forget.
In my AP English writing,literature and composition
course, mrs Westaway gave us allawards at the end of the year
that were tailored to us, mostlikely to.
They were funny some of them,but mine was most likely to be
published, and when I publishedmy first book I sent it to her
(28:08):
with a picture of thatcertificate that she had made
for me to show her.
I was just like, just so youknow.
Etienne (28:15):
She had to cry when she got that.
Oh my God.
Jane (28:18):
Oh totally.
She wrote me back and she wasjust like I got that and it
meant a lot to me and it justreally choked me up.
But she needed to know.
That was really inspirational tome and actually the first
teacher who encouraged me toenter a writing contest actually
shout out to Mr Baxter, samuelCornelius Baxter,
Etienne (28:32):
wow that's a name
Jane (28:41):
Totally a name.
And he made me read my story infront of the class, which is
like kind of terrifying at thetime, but it was the first time
I had written something like notmaking up stories about sharks,
but written something that wasjust completely it was a fantasy
, and that everybody in theclass was like enthralled and I
was like, oh, I might actuallybe good at this, maybe I should
do this, and so I would just,you know, I just kept at it, but
(29:01):
anyway, I just appreciated themso much for encouraging me.
I don't know there was a reasonwhy I was bringing up my english
teachers and now I don't evenknow,
Etienne (29:11):
That's the 50 year old brains for you.
Go down the tangent forget whyyou went there.
Jane (29:19):
Usually I'm pretty good about coming back to like why I
was talking about them, but Ithink that's important to have
people encourage you
Etienne (29:27):
well, yeah, because that was that conference, when I
met you guys, was when I wasasking people to tell me these
professionals who have read someof my work you know, I signed
up for one of the critiques.
I wanted them to tell me if Ishould just stop writing, like,
tell me to stop and I will.
I will try to stop because Ithink I'm wasting my time.
And that's when I, at thatconference, I got that second
(29:49):
place for my short story.
Yes, that was encouragement.
So I'm like, well, this must bea sign that I'm not supposed to
stop.
Okay, fine, I'll keep trying.
Heidi (29:59):
isn't that funny?
it does come in at the time,because when I finally wrote
something I was really proud of,it was all on my own.
All my previous stuff had kindof been workshopped, written by
a committee.
It felt like Kind of the magichad seeped out of the stories.
I finally wrote something goodthat I was proud of and I
(30:19):
thought I'll send this off to afew contests and see if I you
know make second round.
I just wanted validation,you're on the right track and I
ended up winning a bunch ofstuff or placing really high,
and so that was kind ofoverwhelming because I just
wanted to know is this any good?
You know, I think it's good itwas.
Yeah, getting that kind ofencouragement always feels
(30:42):
really good and I think it comesin at the right time to give
you encouragement keep going.
Etienne (30:48):
and I think, the fact that I've tried to stop before
and slowly go insane and have togo back to it like you know
what.
It doesn't matter if otherpeople are ever gonna read what
I write.
It's fine, like I just have tokeep writing it because I have
to stay sane in some fashion
Heidi (31:04):
I am at the point, I'm just writing self.
You know, I'm just trying toentertain myself, create the
stories I want to see or read.
Yeah, yeah
Jane (31:16):
But then it's authentic and I think if you do that, then
that authenticity comes throughthe page and somebody else will
be receptive to it.
At this point I know the marketis just so saturated because
the barriers to entry are downwith self-publishing and that
whole phenomenon, and so there'sso much stuff in the market
that you could put out thereyourself if you want.
And now you're thinking OK, itgets a little bit overwhelming.
(31:37):
But I think if you write thestory that you enjoy.
Etienne (31:40):
That you've worked on a lot, that you've made it the
best you can make it.
Heidi (31:44):
I think it's eventually going to happen Because I mean
there's so much AI stuff outthere now Like people using AI
Etienne (31:51):
Somebody put out I think it might have been the
Atlantic or the New York Timesor somebody.
They had a story written by aperson and then they gave AI
parameters and said write astory about this and you have to
include this, this and this.
And so it was basically asimilar story and they put both
of those out and said pick whichone the AI wrote.
And I totally picked.
I was so bored, within like aparagraph of reading the AI one,
(32:14):
I was like this is the.
AI one.
This cannot be a real person.
This is is horrible.
Heidi (32:18):
Oh yeah, it's garbage.
There's got to be some humanityin the writing.
Jane (32:23):
Well, it's missing the human element.
Heidi (32:26):
They can replace writers with AI.
Etienne (32:29):
Maybe, eventually, maybe eventually but, I think it
would have to be at a time whenthe AI actually has its own
intelligence, like if it has itsown humanity.
Heidi (32:40):
But it's never going to have that first love.
It's never going to go.
Gonna have that first love.
It's never gonna go throughthat first heartbreak.
You know it's never gonna bethe target of bullies like
seriously, it's never going tohave the experience and so how
can it write with any kind ofauthenticity that's going to
resonate with other human beingsright like it can never have
(33:05):
the depth and the creativitythat a human has
Jane (33:08):
because we are actually going to do a whole episode on
ai writing.
I think we should dive into it
Heidi (33:12):
fear of death.
Jane (33:13):
There's no I think that it also doesn't have the capacity
to die in the same way that wedo, and like I think that.
I think that if you don't havethat existential stuff going on,
it isn't going to ring true,but it'll.
It'll be able to haveexperiences,
Heidi (33:27):
I think it's a great tool , like I think.
If writers are using it as likea tool, yay, but it's never
going to be able to crank out anovel that's compelling or
interesting
Etienne (33:40):
or that's original.
Heidi (33:42):
It's not possible.
Jane (33:43):
It can only do derivative stuff, and I think that we get
our ideas from the ether.
There's a book called Big Magicthat I know, heidi, you and I
both read.
Okay, so Big Magic is byElizabeth Gilbert, who wrote Eat
Pray, love and the Signature ofAll Things, and she's like a
phenomenal writer, but hertheory is that and I've heard
(34:04):
other people actually articulatethis theory too, but that ideas
are living entities, right, andthey're just kind of.
They exist in the ethersomewhere and we don't.
Science maybe one day will beexplaining it to us, but they're
looking for the vessel throughwhich they could tell the story,
and that's maybe like wherethis idea of the muse comes from
, right.
So if you're waiting, you, ok,come on you know like they're
(34:26):
looking for like which vehicleis the most open and ready to
tell the story?
For whatever lived experiencethey've had, that's going to
make them
Etienne (34:33):
oh wow Really
Jane (34:35):
Time to bring this to life .
Heidi (34:36):
Mmhh
Jane (34:37):
.
Because sometimes you feel like,ok, this just came from
somewhere, I don't know, andmaybe that's what it is.
And if you don't latch onto itand run with it, that's kind of
like why you have thatexperience of you know, six
months later somebody else wrotethe thing that you were
thinking about, but you didn'tact on it.
Well, that idea probably saidwell, I knocked on your door,
you didn't respond.
(34:57):
I got to get into the worldsome way.
So they go to the next personwho maybe will have the
discipline to bring it all theway there.
And I do think that there'ssomething to that, because there
are some times where the ideais based on something
autobiographical, and then Ithink that it's mostly you, and
then maybe a muse is like okay,but what if it?
But what if it reads minds?
And you're like Ooh, thank you.
(35:17):
Weird idea that came fromnowhere, you know, and then you
just make that happen and it'slike a true fusion.
And then there are other thingsthat hit you that you're like I
have no idea what that is, butI'm going to run with it and I
think that there's maybesomething to there being like
some kind of weird spiritualsymbiosis.
That goes on and you hearsongwriters talk like I'm
obsessed with the Beatles andPaul McCartney talked about that
(35:38):
with like a couple of songs.
Like he just woke up andyesterday was just a tune that
he had in his head and he has noidea where it came from
Heidi (35:44):
having wonder and awe of the world and being yeah, being
open to getting those downloadsfrom the ether from the universe
.
Jane (35:52):
So I think being open is kind of like the first rule
Etienne (35:55):
and every body of water There could be a shark in a
puddle.
Jane (36:00):
Yeah, next thing you know there's a shark that lives in
your backyard
Etienne (36:03):
oh, I mean I knew I was afraid of the deep, that there
was a diving section at the poolthat I went to when I was a kid
and I saw jaws probably tooyoung and I thought the jaws
could be in any deep body ofwater.
So I really did not like goingin that diving area.
I would try to stay veryshallow in it.
(36:23):
I wouldn't try to dive deep.
I'd be like I'm just going togo feet first, I'm not going to
get swallowed by the shark inthe pool.
So, jane, yeah, I'm right,along with all those kids, I
would have totally believed yourstory of the shark in the pond.
It was a pond, right?
Jane (36:39):
It was a pond.
My friend Greg, who is actuallyhas an irrational fear that
there could be a shark anywhere,at any time, in any body of
water
Etienne (36:46):
Like anywhere any time in the bathtub.
Jane (36:48):
He would probably be like well, listen, one of those
suckers could have gone on theriver because the pond was
connected to a river and endedup in your pond.
But sometimes he would be in apool and be like looking around,
like I don't know, maybe I waslike that's too many
psychedelics for you.
You're done now.
Heidi (37:04):
I've had a dream of a shark in the swimming pool and
then, right after that happened,that shark came out of its tank
in the Bahamas and went downthe water slide,
Etienne (37:14):
went down the water slide.
Heidi (37:15):
Yes, yes, and it went into the pool.
Etienne (37:18):
Oh, come on.
Heidi (37:19):
Everything was closed Like it was in the middle of the
night, so nobody was going toget hurt.
But it got out of its tank,went down the water slide and
was in the swimming pool.
So I was right after I had thatshark in the pool dream and I
thought, oh my God, it actuallyhappened.
Etienne (37:39):
Maybe he had just been really, really wanting to use
that water slide.
so he found a way
Heidi (37:42):
he wanted to get out of there.
Jane (37:44):
I don't blame him, poor.
Thing.
I don't think he was living outhis water slide dream.
He was just trying to escape bywhatever means necessary,
Etienne (37:51):
get the hell out of here.
Heidi (37:55):
Can you imagine if that had happened during the day,
though
Etienne (37:58):
In the daytime?
Oh my God, Kid goes down theslide shark following.
I'm like what the hell?
Heidi (38:05):
It would be something out of a horror movie.
Etienne (38:08):
She was like the mom's, like I thought it was bad when
I found the lady would tickle inthe aura of the cactus so now
there's a freaking shark behindmy kid
Jane (38:15):
like a hundred percent but I think
Heidi (38:17):
, and if you haven't listened to episode two about
the tickling of the cactus, yes,and go, go back Be safe
Jane (38:25):
with your psychedelics, but they can also inspire
stories and I think thatsometimes people like you look
at a news story and then that'swhere you get inspiration, right
.
So somebody saw that and said,okay, let's make a story where a
shark is escaping an aquariumor like something like that.
I know that Edgar Allan Poe didthat with the Cask of a
Montalado, like he read anewspaper story about they found
(38:48):
evidence of somebody havingbeen buried alive in a wall you
know, somewhere and he was like,ooh, like, what would make
somebody do that?
And the real life corpse thatwas found chained to a wall
happened in Virginia.
But then he sets it in Italyand adds all of these other
elements of someone being justfeeling so insulted at the core
(39:08):
of them that the only revenge islike I'm going to lure this
person into a catacomb and wallthem up there alive and just
leave them there and you're justthinking, oh my God, the kicker
in that story is that you neverfind out what the insult was.
Etienne (39:20):
And like what actually the inciting incident of why
this happened?
Jane (39:24):
No, I used to have wonderful discussions with my
students of like, okay, what,what could it have been,
Etienne (39:30):
what would be so awful that would.
Or it's just a psychotic personwho needs hardly any inciting
incident.
They're like, yeah, he calledme an asshole.
Jane (39:38):
Yeah, and therefore he must die, yeah,
Heidi (39:58):
and the most horrible way
Jane (40:00):
But, I think that that's one of the awesome things about
writing is that it's a safeplace to explore all kinds of
things.
Nobody actually gets hurt, juston the page.
Although, one of the fun factsI was gonna bring today--as
you're writing, your brainactually is going to those
places where it may actually go,if you're experiencing it for
real, and so it makes mesometimes a little bit wary of
what am I going to write aboutand what places am I willing to
go, and it can be a safe placeto experiment with things.
And also you need to be like,okay, what kind of headspace do
(40:21):
I want to be in and for how long?
But I've put that idea out intothe universe, so I haven't had
any ideas come to me yet that Iwasn't willing to take on, and
actually that's not true.
My next book is one that I havebeen holding on to for a very
long time, but it is going to bethe next thing.
Heidi (40:38):
It's going to be awesome.
Jane (40:39):
I'm going to do it and it's different than what I
thought it was going to be,because I have started outlining
it and I've written like thefirst chapter.
But it's definitely it's goingto be weird and yeah, I'm just
going to definitely not be alonewhen I write about it.
I'm going to have to have.
I'm going to have to getanother dog.
I need to have two dogs in thedark with me now.
Etienne (40:56):
You need two dogs.
Jane (40:57):
I need two dogs.
Etienne (41:02):
This is a two dog book, so I need two dogs.
Jane (41:05):
It's a two dog story and, like Stephen King, this actually
came the seed forIt was from a dream, so you know
,
I've been anticipating this forhow long now?
20 years.
Oh my God
Heidi (41:19):
Almost 20 years.
I remember you telling me
Etienne (41:22):
what the story is and you can't talk about it.
No, no, no, get off, yeah, andso I remember you telling me I
might not know what the story isand you can't talk about it on
here, so we're going to have toget off so you can tell me.
Heidi (41:28):
I've been anticipating this one.
It's going to be good.
Etienne (41:33):
Everybody's like that's not fair
Heidi (41:35):
and what's great is nobody else has written it, so
this story is being so patientwith her waiting all this time
Etienne (41:45):
you're so lucky it didn't move on.
It's the whole muse thing Likeit's going to move on to the
next person.
You're lucky if it's been 20years.
Heidi (41:51):
No, this she's born.
To write this she's born towrite this.
Jane (41:54):
I think that it didn't move on because it's grounded in
multiple things personal dreams, family history, other stuff.
So I think that's why I didn'tmove on.
So don't move on, I'm gonna doit, I'm gonna do it
Heidi (42:06):
it's way to this long.
It's yours,
Etienne (42:08):
I mean you're in chapter one
Heidi (42:10):
I can't wait.
Etienne (42:17):
Holy cow.
Heidi (42:17):
yeah
Jane (42:17):
yeah.
Thank you for hanging andlisten to us talk about what
inspired us to become writers.
And if you're out there lookingto do that, if you've been
telling yourself stories or youwere playing with your Barbies
and you want to explore thatspace again and be playful, then
just do it.
It's therapeutic, it'sexhilarating, frustrating,
exhausting, but always worth it.
Etienne (42:32):
Yes, definitely
Heidi (42:33):
Tell your story.
Go for it.
Etienne (42:35):
Leave the world a better place than how you found
it.
And hopefully that means givingyour stories out in the world,
getting your art out there,whatever that art may be.
Heidi (42:45):
And that's our show.
You've been listening to theWomen Are Plotting.
If you have a story you'd liketo share or have any comments,
we'd love to hear from you.
Email us at info@thewomenareplottingcom, and, of
course, you can find us on allthe socials.
Thanks and until next time.
Be safe and be excellent toeach other.
Thank you.
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