July 25, 2025 • 52 mins
For today’s episode, TJ, Nella, and Dr. Robin dive deep into one of the most emotionally charged life transitions: divorce. But this isn’t just about paperwork or custody. It’s about identity, healing, and the children caught in between.
The hosts share hard-earned insights from personal experience and years of therapy practice, guiding listeners through what happens to your sense of self when a marriage ends, why co-parenting often starts with parallel parenting, and how to protect your child’s emotional world, even when yours is falling apart.
Whether you’re in the thick of divorce, navigating custody, or supporting someone else, this episode offers honest, unfiltered wisdom to help you find clarity, calm, and confidence again.
IN THIS EPISODE
• Divorce is not just a breakup. It often brings an identity crisis.
• Many people lose themselves in the role of spouse or parent and don’t know who they are outside of it.
• Letting go of anger is essential for healing and personal growth.
• Divorce is grief. It’s normal to cycle through anger, sadness, confusion, and numbness.
• Just because someone was a bad partner doesn’t mean they’re a bad parent.
• Children should never be used as emotional crutches or messengers during divorce.
• Parallel parenting is a powerful tool when cooperative co-parenting isn’t possible.
• Kids feel the energy. Protecting their nervous system should come before “winning.”
• Don’t compare your children’s reactions. Every child processes divorce differently.
• Boundaries are essential, especially when toxic communication happens through phones or text.
• Support your kids’ autonomy. One day they’ll reflect on how you handled this.
BEST MOMENTS
1.05 “You can actually lose your own identity during divorce.”
7.18 “Divorce is grief… It’s going to be an emotional roller coaster.”
10.59 “When I stopped being angry at my husband, I swear my healing was so much faster.”
15.26 “Just because you’re divorced doesn’t mean that person suddenly became a bad parent.”
21.28 “You are playing Russian roulette with your child when you talk bad about their other parent.”
22.54 “Your primary goal should be to protect your child’s nervous system.”
26.47 “Co-parenting takes two. Parallel parenting works when one of you is still stuck in conflict.”
42.23 “This will be a drop of sand in your life. What matters is the relationship your child will have with you later.”
48.40 “I never wanted my child to say, ‘Why didn’t you stand up for me?’”
Therapists Unhinged is where mental health gets real. Hosted by licensed therapists who tell it like it is, this podcast dives deep into the messy, meaningful, and hilarious parts of being human. From mastering resilience to navigating the chaos of everyday life, we bring raw conversations, expert insights, and unfiltered honesty...no jargon, no BS.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Let's say yourhusband wins everything in court
because he has, you know, the 50something thousand
dollars lawyer.
Okay, let him take everything.
If he took everything from you.
He could never take youas a parent
and take your identity.
If you're going through itand you're starting to have
all that anger and resentment.
Try your best to let it go,because that's
not going to help you heal.
And if your journey is to healand find yourself, letting go of
(00:22):
the anger is the biggest thing.
And for me,and from what I see, is
when they let go of the anger,they.
So welcome everyone to episode15 of Therapist's
Unhinged welcome.
(00:44):
So today we're talkingabout a pretty important topic,
and that's about divorceand co-parent.
Teen and the kids.
Because let's get real, divorceisn't just about okay, I'm
breaking up the family, right?
You can actually lose yourown identity during divorce.
So we're going to get into thata little bit.
(01:05):
And, you know, definitely talkabout the mental health piece,
but you kind of focuson, you know,
the children involved and how,you know, kind of just
going through your identity.
So obviously,I mean, just to start.
What does it do to people likewhat we have, like with clients,
going through initially, like,who are they?
(01:27):
Especially when they've beenwith this person
for ten, 20, 30 years.
Sometimes I frequently hearthat people don't know who
they are anymorebecause they were the wife,
they were the mom.
They were involvedin this family.
And now they're like, lost.
Absolutely.
So I know that.
I see that as a big,you know, thing.
People coming in here for,you know, women, man,
(01:48):
they don't know how to processand figure out who they are.
So and I thinkit's a lot of it is to like it
depends on your age.
Yes, definitely.
Because I mean, in our age,we've seen a lot of people
that they went to school,got married.
So they've been married.
That'sbeen their whole adult life.
And then a lot of timeswhat I see is it's
when the empty nest happensand now they're going,
(02:11):
everything's changed.
Roles have changed who they are,like you said.
And they don'tthey don't have any idea
who they areand they don't have, you know,
so everything is just, a mess.
But I also, unfortunately,think it brings out the worst
in people.
You're right.
And that's where I heara lot of, like,
oh, I don't even knowwho that person was or this,
you know,this is someone different
that I'm divorcingand and things like that.
(02:34):
Absolutely. That is so true.
And, you know,I see a lot of that too,
especially in our age rangewhere they lose their identity
because they placed itin the spouse,
they placed it in the kids,you know,
you know, attending all the kidsactivities and different
things like that.
And then when the kids go offto college,
there's nothing in betweenthe two spouses but space.
(02:56):
The kids aren't thereto distract, the kids
aren't thereto go to the basketball game,
the cheerleading,you know, games
and all those different things.
And they don't know howto navigate as to empty nesters.
So a lot of, you know, thingsthat they didn't
have to focus on.
Now it's in the roomand they have to focus on it
and they don't know how.
(03:17):
Yeah.
How do you normally beginlike with a client like that.
Like saying like let's saythey've been married 20 years.
I've had a lot of clientsrecently.
It's very strange.
It's kind of all at oncewhen they got married young,
got married, you know,very young, in their late
teens or early 20s,and now they're 40s and 50s
and they're like, I don'tI don't even know what to do.
(03:38):
Like, I don't know what to do.
What do you usually say?
Like, how do you start thator what do you suggest?
I suggest we do,a lot of self-development, like
because it'salmost like a rebuilding, right?
A rebuilding or, you know, a remanifesting or re resurfacing.
Right? Because you get lostin a whole bunch of stuff.
(03:59):
So if your identityis, it's in there,
but it's like pared downbecause of everything else
that's been on it.
So it's like digging deep.
So we unpack the suitcasein the room. Okay.
You got your suitcase in here.
Let's unpack it.
You know, what are some thingsthat you've always wanted to do?
That maybe becauseyou got married and had kids.
You couldn't do.
And sometimes they'll go,oh, I don't know.
Because, you know, my,my husband was or my
wife, was my whole life.
(04:20):
And so when you break that apartfor them and say, okay, no,
no, no, let's just start here.
Let's start with one, two,three or ABCd
and then let's startputting it back together.
So we talkwe talk about interest.
What things? Interesting.
Well, before you got married,what were your interests?
Did you, you know,actually meet the
did you do those thingsthat you were interested in
or did you put themon the backburner?
(04:41):
And it doesn't matter if you didput it on the backburner,
of course,because when you have family,
sometimes you do have to put,you know,
your things on the backburner.
So we talk about the goals, talkabout what their interests are,
what what would you like to do?
You know, what do you lookforward to doing it.
And you start there and develop,you know, in that area.
And then we start tobuild on that
so that we they could discoverwho they really are outside of
(05:02):
or after the divorce.
I like that.
I was going to sayI actually am working with,
a wonderful family.
And, and it's funnybecause a lot of times
because, you know, I doI like to do the individuals
and the couples and sometimesit doesn't always happen.
It always happens. It's strange.
And it's like I'll have onethat presents and things.
(05:22):
It's this. But then,oh no, it's the marriage.
And then this isand actually we're finally
on the other side of it.
And what I have seen,kind of like what you said
is that I'm now having to go,wait a minute, wait a minute.
You weredifferent people over here
like and to say like, oh,this never happened
or oh, this in herebecause they start to discover,
(05:43):
oh, but I wanted thisand I wanted this,
and he's not given meor she's not.
I go, oh, I've got to slow down.
I said, becausethe roles that you played,
you did get all of that.
And, and like you said,and then I do a lot of like
and you were raising your kidsand that's,
that's what you were doing.
And nothing is better than that.
But this is for you now.
(06:04):
And so even when I get them inand we do some of the,
relational stuff,you can see how again, we talked
before about,you know, patterns.
And I said in their patternsof behaviors, no.
And communication stylesno longer fits where they are
and they evenand that they're not realizing
how nothing worksat this point in time.
(06:26):
And so even with that, it's likeand I do a lot of reframing
redirect and I'm going, yes,but this did happen
and that did happen.
And you guys are still togetherand, you know, and it's
almost like when it gets quiet,they're like
because they've been like,you know, we can handle
the turmoil or distractions.
You know, they don'teven realize that's what it is.
And, you know, now it's justquiet and you get to just be.
(06:48):
And they go, but be what it'slike, what what are we being?
Or if they are retired or what.
Now what the heck is that? Likethey don't have to live.
I know thattransition is so hard.
And, you know, for me,like usually
if they come in at that pointof, you know, divorce or
something, it'sit's like I noticed that,
you know, divorce seems likeit's an emotional rollercoaster
(07:09):
and you don't know where thatperson is on that roller coaster
when they're coming intothe office.
Are they on that,like super angry
and that side of the grief site?
Because really,divorce is grief.
And I tell people,I tell people that it's like,
okay, you're going to go,you're going to grieve.
So you're going tohave those stages of anger,
you know, resentment, sadness,all of those things.
(07:29):
So I just try to see, okay, hey,this is going to be
an emotional roller coaster.
Like there's no way around that.
I mean, what percentageof peaceful divorce
do you see out there?
Like very smallto where it doesn't, you know,
affect you emotionally.
So I just tell them, yep,you're on the roller coaster.
Here we go. Hold on tight.
Let's see.
You know how you're goingto go through all those things.
(07:51):
You know highs highs highs.
You're going to feel startfeeling great.
And then something's going tohappen. You're going to go low.
So I just meet themwhere they are and see okay
we're right here.
You're on a high right nowokay. You're going out dating.
You're liking to see who you areidentity wise.
Okay, good.
I'm glad you're at that space.
Have you processed though,where you have you gone back?
Like where? Where did you startin this, you know. Right.
(08:13):
So it really just depends.
But I mean, like overall you'reit doesn't matter
if you were marriedreally five years or 20 years,
you're having to redevelopwho you are. Absolutely.
And I know one thingyou said is kind of like,
what did they dobeforehand before?
Like what was their behaviorsand stuff before?
But it doesn't really matterbecause this is going to be
a whole new discoveryof who you are
(08:34):
without your spouse, you know,without being an intact
family anymore.
What about your dreams?
Maybe your dream dreamswas the white picket fence
and you thought you guyswere gonna be together
forever, right?
Because that's whypeople get married normally.
And that didn't happen.
So it's like your dreamsand every reality is crossed,
you know? So. Absolutely.
(08:55):
That's one thingthat I see a lot. Yeah.
And as I say, like,even like what you said
about the identity is thatsomebody said to me, well, he
goes, well, I'm starting over.
Okay.
Like, but why are we upset?
I mean, this clearlyand a lot of times that too.
And I thinkthere's a lot of blame and shame
and really trying to see.
And I said, listen, I saideverybody had a part in this.
(09:17):
And I said,you can continue to point out,
but if you don't point in,you're
going to repeat the process.
I said, useful change, littlefigureheads and everything.
And so even with that, I mean,there is so much self-reflection
and sometimes notand sometimes not, you know.
The ones that heal the bestand the fastest are the ones
that do have self-reflection.
(09:39):
Absolutely.
You know, and and, you know,even personally speaking,
you know,I've gone through divorce.
I'm pretty transparent about it.
And married like 15 years.
And it's one of those thingsto where it took my journey
was it tookmaybe some time to start
instead of pointing the fingerat everything he did wrong,
(09:59):
it was pointing inwardand having to do that.
But I realized that onceI was able to see my take on it
and you know, my part in it,you know, things
I was responsibleand not responsible for, right?
And it was able to just like,it's almost like clarity,
like you start to feel like,like, okay, I made these choices
because of x, y, z.
(10:21):
These were my choiceseven though I was young. Yeah.
I was, you know, 17when I met them.
I was very young, very naive.
But it's justit brings so much clarity.
So if I can encourage any,you know,
client out there, babieslisteners out
there is that, you know,if you're going through it
and you're starting to like,have all that
anger and resentmenttry your best to let it go,
because that'snot going to help you heal.
(10:43):
And if your journey is to healand find yourself, letting go of
the anger is the biggest thing.
And for me,and from what I see, is
when they let go of the anger.
Yeah, it's like dang.
Like I'm good when I start.
Stopped being angryat my husband.
Like, I swear by healing,like way faster.
Yeah, yeah.
And healing looks differentfor every person.
And then sometimesI know that you get, you know,
(11:06):
you get stuck in a cyclebecause you
if you have smaller children.
And I'm not sayingthat if the kids are grown
or off to college,you see, it's any easier.
But with with the smaller kids,it can be a lot harder to
because you're in,you know, a custody battle,
you may be in a custodybattle or, you know,
you have to decide, well,who gets the kids
on these holidays.
And they're and it can be anever ending cycle.
(11:27):
But you're right.
If you start to, you know, dothe inner healing, you know,
especially for yourself,then it helps your kids as well.
Because sometimes that angerand you know,
all of those emotionsspill over into the kids.
And now they have to strugglewith those same issues.
And remembering that even thoughit is a very hard time,
(11:48):
you know, it'snot just about you
or your spouse,but if you have those kids, it's
about those kids too,and how they.
Feel, because that'sa really good point is,
you know,if you do have children in it,
whether they're youngor whether they're teenagers,
they're goingto go through their own grief.
They're goingto have to heal as well,
because their realityjust changed.
(12:09):
And the thing that I see thethe hardest is that
it's out of their control,right?
It's the adultsthat are making these decisions
that childrendon't get to have a voice in it.
So one thing that I seethat hurts the children
hurts relationshipsbetween mom and children
and dad and children iswhen you're not giving them
any voice in anything.
(12:29):
So now they have to choosebecause you're angry at your ex
and now you're like, well,you're
your mom is it's not her day.
I don't care if you have thisin this in this going on.
It's my day, it's my time.
And it's like, what about whatyour child wants, right?
This is where I say,let go of the anger.
Because if you let goof the anger
and focus on your child, to methat's the number one.
(12:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And so I actually am doing thisnow because of my divorce.
And Reagan was three.
And so I, girl,you were saying and I,
I know it was devastatingbecause there was such a
lack of control, even whenand you're
trying to do the right thing.
And a lot of timesyou don't know what
the right thing is,and especially if you've had,
(13:13):
you know, someonethat wasn't really there,
but then you feel likeand you're trying to
and you're trying to navigateand you know, doing this, I do a
lot of research and all of it,you know, I know you do a lot of
reading of your application.
Where do family mediationsand stuff.
And so first thingI tell my parents or whoever
it is, is do your research,do your research, understand
the law.
(13:34):
You know,I say again, I said, there's
there's no room for emotionsand a court of law.
I said, law is law.
Does familylaw belong in a court system?
Not really,because it's all emotional.
But you know,I had a wonderful attorney and,
you know,he really walked me through it.
But, I mean, I let them comeand they give me the emotions
and we can talk them through.
I said, because,you know, you got to go in there
and remember what it's about.
(13:56):
I said, but even with that,I said, this is not
your children's fault.
And I said,it is not their place to carry,
you know, your burden.
And I said,but you got to remember,
they're alsohalf of that person.
So if you're speaking illof your husband or your wife,
your child's taking that onbecause they are half of
(14:16):
the husband or the.
Wife,and then they feel like that
tug, like they're in the middle.
Absolutely. It's not fair.
It's just not fair at all.
And I see it so much,you know, especially I mean,
that is what I specialize inis I love doing child custody
stuff and, and reunificationand things like that.
And, you know, partlybecause of my passion,
because of my own experience,you know, kind of
brought me into that field,but also because I know
what it can do to these kids.
(14:40):
I've seen it happen.
And so, like, if I tell anyparents going through this is,
you know, don't use your childas an emotional crutch, not,
do not,you know, tell your child
what's going on, you know, adultconversation,
stay adult conversations,even if you're angry.
That's when you goand vent to your therapist
or you go into your girlfriend.
(15:01):
That is who you meant to,you know?
And I get it. It'shard. It's not easy.
Been there.
See it. It's not easy to hold.
Hold. Poker face, you know?
But you have to put those kidsfeelings and and desires first
and what is best for them.
And and just remember,I like to tell people
this too is if,if they were in an intact family
(15:22):
and let's say bothparents were involved
in the child's life,like going to football games.
Go in here, go in there.
So just because you're divorced,how does you get in divorce
all of a sudden?
Make that person a bad fatheror a bad mother?
It doesn't make them a badmaybe make them about wife
or husband and that's fine.
Have them be a terrible wifeor husband.
But did that was that parenta bad parent?
(15:44):
You have to think about thatand separate it
or you may not like them.
They need be a narcissistand maybe this and that.
But at the end of the day,do they love those kids?
They want to be in their life?
Okay then.
So they can still bea shitty person
or shitty husbandor wife and be in those.
Kids, right?
Because if they've never putthe kids in harm's way
or do things that you know,that the kids, that is risky,
(16:05):
you know, for the kids,then I agree with it.
And sometimesbecause you're holding on anger
so you don't see that,but you know,
because I was gonna saycooperative co-parenting
is the thing and it can work,you know, because I do have,
you know,just even personally, like,
I, I've never beenthrough a divorce,
but my daughter,she went through a divorce
and out of the marriage,you know, my granddaughter,
my middle granddaughter.
(16:27):
Is that, like,stuck in the middle.
And I've always told them, look,I don't care
what y'all got going on,and I don't care how
you handle it, I honestly don't.
But when it starts to affecther, that
I have a problem with itbecause she should be able
to love you out loudand love him out loud
and there should beno cross-contamination on it.
And that's how it should be,because sometimes we, you know,
(16:48):
you get caught up in the will,you know, you love him.
And I had a client or familyand the mom saying, well,
he loves her.
He loves himmore than he loves me.
And it's like, it'snot about that.
It's about both of both of youbeing loved by the child
who you all created,who has nothing to do with
what's going onbetween the two of you
(17:09):
and that's where it needsto stay between the two of you,
you know? Yeah,because that's what I tell them.
I said marriage is a choice.
Parenting is forever.
Yeah. You chose this person.
Hey, don't say that.
You know, whatever.
And a lot of times you,you said something earlier
about like you knowholding on to that anger.
One thing I do hear myselfworking with them is that
they get.
(17:30):
So I wasted thisor I did what I go.
But did youknow, I said, think about it.
Did you go into this marriagethinking about being divorced?
No, you.
But you can't put this overthere.
You did what you didbecause you wanted
to, you know, or sometimes.
Or maybe because you want to.
Do orit was the right thing to do.
(17:51):
That's what I'm saying.
So. But but holding on to thatand then shaming yourself
for that.
Because if I go but again,that's
not going to help anythingbecause that's going to keep you
stuck over hereis part of your healing.
Learn from it, learn from it.
But again, it goes back to that,you know, now,
let me ask you all this.
How would you handle thiscoming to you?
(18:12):
Because you're you're a courtlady. So let's say that, we have
a situation with a custody issueand, and which we've seen to
where parents are now trying touse the therapist or.
Yeah.
Like, you know. Yeah.
How do you.
Yeah.
You know, and that's the thingtoo, is that, you know,
I love that parents chooseto put their kids in therapy
(18:34):
during divorce,even if they don't look like
they're having a hard time.
They probably are in some way.
Maybe they're suppressing it.
And I see that.
And then it comes outfive years later
and then you're like,oh my God, what happened?
And he never processedhis feelings and emotions.
So put your kids in therapy.
If you're going througha divorce, just to say like
just to kind of test it outand let that be an outlet
for them.
But another thing is,is don't use the therapy
(18:55):
as a tool, as a weapon,so that you can use it
against your spouse in court.
First of all, in our practice,we do not have
we have a zero tolerancefor that zero
tolerance of saying, okay, well,I want the records for the last,
you know, five sessions becauseI want to show my attorney,
but no, these children'srights need to be protected
(19:17):
and this needs to bea safe place for them.
And if your agendais to use your child's
emotions and feelings and outletas a tool, as a weapon,
you need some self-reflection.
You need to look in the mirrorbecause I will call you out
and I instruct peopleto call them out.
(19:37):
Like that is a zerotolerance thing.
Now, if your child is in dangeror having, you know,
thoughts of harm, self-harm,anything dangerous,
let's say they said, oh,you know, mom's burning me
with a cigaretor something like that.
Of coursewe're going to notify you,
but if it's just their outletand letting them
express themselves,I mean, maybe they hate
mom one day and maybe they hatedad the other.
(19:58):
You don't need to know that.
They're good.
They can.
They're ready to share withthat with you
when they feel like it.
Or when we feel as a therapist,it's the right time
to share that.
But yeah,that's one thing that I see.
We see it all the timein our practice therapists,
and we just immediatelysay, no, it's not happening
because it is about that child.
And if you want that timeto go to therapy,
then let them go to therapy.
(20:18):
Let that be with the therapist.
And and see and Iof course we know it,
but I think that that isbecause we do.
We have a lot of people thatcome in and they don't know.
They really don't know.
And I know they're hurtand everything.
And I know when we onboardsome of our new clinicians
and stuff, we say, you know,if there's ever anything I said,
we got to really, you know,protect these kids and pretend
they're all hurting, you know.
And I said, butand that is one thing I know.
(20:40):
I say,I call this first and foremost.
I said, I will always advocatefor your child.
I said, you all are adults.
You all are grown.
They don't really,I said, but they have me.
I said, you know what?
And this iswhat we're going to do.
So but you know, and that's whyI said, I mean, of course
we know what we do.
But, you know,I think that that was important
because I think a lot of people,they don't understand,
they don't.
You know, and I think toalso that's important
(21:02):
when you do have a,you know, a client who they're
a minor client and their parentsare going through a divorce.
You know, I bringboth the parents in also and
I don't share with themwhat we talk about in session.
But like you said,and all of the things
that they need to know,I share with them,
such as if one parent is bashinganother parent
in front of the childand they're having, you know,
(21:24):
their emotionsare all over the place
and they're like a messin my room.
And I'll tell them,I go, look, you guys,
I use this examplefor many of my, clients.
I go, okay, that's a busy,dangerous highway out there.
Like right thereopening up at level planning.
The causeway is very busy.
It's almost like one parentis standing where the Wawa is,
(21:44):
and the other parentis standing on the other side,
and you have your kidblindfolded and one
parent has their child here,and you push that kid out
enough, and they run expectingnot to get hit,
trying to make it over to dadand vice versa.
I said, that is what you guysare doing to your kid.
You're playing Russian roulette,expecting the bullet
not to hit them.
And it does every time.
I, you know, like that. Analogybecause.
(22:06):
They don't realize it.
And one parent,she actually sat in my room
and she was like,I never thought about it
like that.
I go, that'swhat happens when you talk
about dad in front of him,and when dad talks about him
in front of you and he's in heretrying to figure out what to do
with all of thatthat you guys have in him.
And it's not fair.
No, I like that.
That's very true.
You are playing Russian roulettewith your child doing that.
(22:28):
And even as thoseeven those bullets
don't hit him,it's freezing them.
Absolutely.
He's getting away from it.
Every time you have that curseword about your dad or your mom,
they're feeling it.
And one thing I want to,you know,
reiterate with parents out thereis that it's not your job.
You're not your primary goalis to win an argument
with your ex.
(22:49):
Your primary goal should beto protect your child's
nervous systemand to protect your child.
Absolutely.
And and that's the thing is,if you stay focused on that
and focus on your own healing,things will pan out.
Things will settle out, right?
Things will eventually be okay.
And even if you'redodging the bullets,
let yourself dodge the bullets.
Okay?
(23:10):
If you're dodging these badthings in this and you're
trying to stay calmand you're like, okay, I'm
going to go visit my therapistevery week, then about it, go,
go do that.
But if you're tryingto protect your child
and putting that child first,everything else will eventually
settle down.
And you know what?
It's if it looks like,okay, let's say
that other person has the money.
(23:32):
I know that's a big thing.
One person is worth,one person has,
or one person has all the money.
Okay, but let's say your husbandwins everything in court
because he has, you know, the 50something thousand
dollar lawyer.
Okay? Let him take everything.
If he took everything from you,he could never take you
as a parentand take your identity
if he can't take you.
(23:52):
And if someone isthat controlling, let's say
you are married to someonethat's like a narcissist
or controlling,has controlling traits.
Okay, then they will never beable to take who you are
and who you are as a mom.
They won't be ableto take that from me.
So just remember,what is most important to you
is it to win an argumentis to win in the courtroom,
or is it to win for your childand your child financially?
(24:15):
Well, and we even knowthat's what I say,
because I have that situationand they're almost on the other
side of it. And I've got the,not money side.
And and, you know, that sideis she goes,
I've learned so much, you know,and that's what she said.
She goes and I said,do your research, understand?
I said, because there are laws,no state of Florida's.
(24:36):
Everybody talksabout like state of Florida
has always beenone of the greatest states
for child advocacy.
And they have changedeverything.
And there's a lot of thingsthat happen.
You know,when you started the 8020,
then it was the 40and then it was,
you know, going for the 5050.
Now that's where they startfrom the 5050, like so I'm like,
okay, what are we really?
But I know you do.
You get so terrified of,you know,
(24:56):
is going to take my childrenbecause I was there, you know,
I was there because it was a nota great situation.
And I was a lot of fear.
And that's what I was told.
And isn't thatI didn't understand, you know.
And so that's what I said.
I said, you know, I willI never want anybody
to ever go through what I did,you know, ever.
Because it was it was awful,you know, a year and a half
(25:17):
and not knowing anything.
And it wasjust, you know, so terrifying
because you're livingin this state of confusion,
you know, so even with that,trying to make decisions
and so even one thatI kind of even tell my I go,
but we don't need to make all ofthese decisions right now.
Let's just go back to simple.
What are the basicthings that we need right now?
(25:39):
Just like,let's just go there, you know?
Because even with that,sometimes it's, you know.
Yeah.
And then and then another thingtoo, about, you know, parenting
and, you know, collaborativeparenting and co-parenting
and then, you know, everyonekind of knows what that means.
Like, you're you'rekind of you're co-parenting your
you may not like the person,but you're doing
what's right for the kids.
(25:59):
Both of you were on the samepage.
Well, then there'sthe parallel parenting.
A lot of people are startingto come around of what
that means, which is basicallyif you're dealing with somebody
a, an ex and the father,the mother, and they are just
you can't deal with them.
You like every timeeverything's a fight
and you are done fighting,let's say you've accepted it
and you're done fighting,but that other person
(26:21):
is not done fighting.
That is when youswitch from, okay,
you're not going to be ableto co-parent
with this person, right?
Because co-parenting takestwo people.
Parallel parenting though,that is when you're going
to go, this wayand you're going to do what
your part is.
You'renot going to have expectations
that this parentis going to work with you.
(26:43):
So what you do is you let themgo in their own direction. Yep.
And you just keep going your wayand you're and they're going
to go their way and use this.
That's the expectation nowbeing the bigger person
and being the bigger parent,if that's which is
let's say they do want to nowstart to co-parent
once they've healed,maybe they've gone to therapy.
Years go by, time heals, right?
(27:05):
You've let goof some of that anger.
Then you can read.
Maybe you can't co-parent again.
But in the meantime,if you can just parallel parent,
you're not attackingthe other person.
You're not having expectations.
You're just allowing yourselfto be at peace.
Absolutely doingbecause that is key.
And I got there.
I was able to finally parallelparent
(27:26):
as I went through horrible.
I can be in the same roomas my ex-husband.
We can be at the same place.
I could talk to him aboutthe kids needs no problem,
like I said.
Well,how would I think of him as
a person is differentthan who he is in my kids lives,
and he is a part of them,and it is what it is.
And now we can have totalconversation and we're okay.
And it is what it is.
(27:46):
Now we can co-parent,but the parallel parenting
is so good for peoplewho are still in that high
emotional state.
I agree with it.
I like you, I just want to.
Say parallel parking.
But but yeah, and I've heard of,you know, of course the.
Parents even heard that.
You know,I go to the park. Perfect.
But no, it is becauseyou know what that means, right?
(28:06):
Because and especiallyokay, you are in one household
and you know your two household,they may run differently, right?
They may run differently.
But both households still,you know,
keep in mind what is bestfor the children, right?
Because you know, I have parentsI like. Okay.
So bedtime at your house,you don't mind.
Like your kids can stay uptill 10:00 at night
(28:28):
and maybe at dad's house,they can only stay up to eight.
That's his rule.
Why is it hurting?
Is it hurting the kid?
No, because,I mean, the only thing is doing
what is absolutely right.
So if it's working onboth sides, the rules
don't have to look the same.
They just have to be, you know,the kid just has to have rules.
And I want to.
And I want to say something toyou as,
you said like, you know, doingwhat's best for the kids,
(28:50):
you know, there are so manygood, good parents out there
who look differently as a parentthan they do as a person.
Right?
So just because someone appearsto be a shitty person
on the outside doesn't meanthat they're not going to be
a good father or a good mother.
(29:11):
To. Their children. Right?
So that's one thingtoo, is like, oh my God,
did you see what he did?
You know how he actedand all that?
Yeah, he was pretty shitty.
Like, yeah, I wanted topunch him in the throat.
Well, you know what?
Here's your kids, like,worse off the ground.
His dad walks on that he lovesand gets excited to see his dad.
And that's the important thingwe should.
(29:31):
Exactly.
So, you know, that's one thingtoo, is I have like I had
and I still havesome great parents out there
that are in divorcesand they're just at each other.
And I'm, I see all these,the bad sides of these parents.
But I knowat the end of the day,
they love their kids, even them.
And they just the faiththat co-parenting.
And that's why I try to tellthem, do not try to go.
(29:52):
You're driving yourself crazy.
You are making it worsefor yourself and your children
because you're going to avengeand saying,
oh my God, your dad letyou have candy at 10:00, like,
that's diculouswhat kind of parent does that?
Yeah.
Is thatmaybe a healthy choice? No.
But is there teeth? Right.
You don't get to say that.
Does everybody.
Know?
Okay, then, you know,just make sure you go over
six months ago. See?
(30:13):
What can I say? Like, exactly.
Don't sweat the small stuff.
Right.
Know what I go is like await a minute.
So if you if he was orshe was parenting, you know,
y'all still be married.
Why all of a sudden do yourexpectations change when you go?
Well, we could go.
And I see that all the time.
But he shouldn't.
She should I go, oh what didthey would have already put.
(30:36):
Would you all still be togetherlike.
But now we have almostlike a higher expectation.
It's a good point,you know what I mean.
And I do and his like with you,sometimes
you just listen to him like,oh did you just hear what
you did?
They don'tthey don't like what you said.
You're like, I never thoughtabout it like that.
And then they're like this.
Yeah, I guess I just kind ofdumb, like know, but it's not.
(30:57):
But that'swhat you're conditioned to.
And so but I go, yeah.
And he's always been she'swhy are we surprised.
Right. Right.
And I think it's reallywhen they start
to slip out and stuffabout things like this,
like that little thingsthat we see as little.
But they're takingas big things, you know,
as I start to see like,okay, they're coming
from a place of anger. Yeah.
(31:18):
Then let's dig deep.
Where does that angercoming from?
Are they fighting you nowfor finances? Child's for.
Is that where you're reallyso now everything that they do
hitting you off and I get it.
You know when you don't likesomebody, it's
hard to have to deal with them.
Right?
So deal with them less.
Don't deal with themas much as possible.
Communicate. Get apps.
They have my family wizard.
Oh girl.
I have that on now that. Is.
(31:39):
No, no, that's not it.
It's all because I haveI have a parent.
We did.
We establisheda co-parenting plan
because at firstthey were doing the parallel.
And I think sometimesthey do it.
It still just depends.
But they were at that pointwhere they were like,
okay, we're readyfor the co-parenting plan.
And they do have the app.
They use an app.
You they don't reallythey don't pick up the phone,
they don'tcommunicate in crossing of,
you know, dropping offand picking up.
(32:03):
They communicate through the appand the app that they use
and everything that they need,and they're fine with it.
That's why I always recommend itwhen I as soon as I get like
almost like a first session,I'm like, would
how are you communicating?
Oh well with text it.
Nope. Let's let's put that off.
No, we're going to doyou know, instead we're going
to do some my family wizard and,and just do that
because then if,if one takes them to the doctor
(32:23):
and they have a follow up,you don't have to say Johnny's
teeth are, are good.
His next appointment is thatand then some kind of snarky
comment.
You're just asking for snarkycomments, so don't even do it.
Put it in there and then it'stheir responsibility.
Everything's in the grades,report cards, whatever it is.
Right.
Because that'sthe biggest thing.
Because when you're goingthrough the divorce
(32:45):
and that's again, it'sand we know
people are very conditionedand they allow this.
And again, but that's why I saythis is documented evidence.
Well he's not going toshe's not going to.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matterbecause the judge can't.
All they can dois with what they have.
Don't worry about it like you.
And it really does.
It's like they don't understand.
Like, I don't know, it's italmost makes it like, objective.
(33:06):
Put it out here.
But I do have a questionand I don't know
who wants to answer it,because this is one thing
that also I seenow that we didn't have,
you know, backis that not just the app, but
phones,parents contact and children
with lie about the phoneand you get that
and this is that well,this parent is berating this
(33:26):
child over here on this phone.
And that phone that's beena big thing that I've.
Had that also my whole okay,I've had where I want
parents like,well, I don't think they are
old enough to have a phone.
So I don't agree with themhaving a phone,
but mom or dad letsthem have a phone.
Okay,so when they come to your house,
(33:47):
if you don't agree with it,tell them not
to bring the phone, right?
If mom's okay with themhaving it, as long as there's
parental supervision over it,you know those things,
then that's mom's housewhen they come to your house,
if you don't agree with it,then you and mom have to come
to some type of agreement thatI don't want it at my house,
so it has to stay at yours.
So I mean, that was pretty much,you know what I've had to share
(34:08):
with like my parents who are oneis in agreement was life,
you know, but mostly I have mineare they don't
really care about the phones,you know,
as long as they can contactthe children on the phone
when they'rewith the other parent.
So maybe. Okay. So maybe okay.
So that is one thing.
But the other side is likeand I guess it happens a lot
with my teenage clients.
(34:30):
Is that there being there'shorrible messages
coming from the other side.
Through the child's like.
So if it's so say I'mthe child and it's dad and dad
is overbearing or whatever,you know, whatever.
And I'm at mom's house,but dad is reaching out to me
and telling me these like that.
I've had to navigate thata little bit, too.
I'm like, you know, how do I?
(34:51):
Because again, they're theparent, you know, how do we do?
I block. I set boundaries,I still set boundaries.
I set up boundarieswith the parent.
They're part of the they'rethey're your clients to it.
The parent is not involvedin the therapy with
let's say you have a teenagerand let's say the teenager
was 14, just for instance.
And it's the dad and the dadis not involved in therapy.
Then, you know,go ahead and say,
(35:12):
put boundaries up with your dad.
Let's talk about it.
Let's have a conversation.
What is a goodor a respectful way to put a
with dad and say,you know what, dad?
You know,I know that you're texting me
and you're angry with mom.
I would have greatlyappreciate it
if you didn't put it,because it does
damage me emotionally, you know?
Makes me very sad.
And it hurts meif he's a good parent,
which he probably is,is just saying, oh, I'm sorry,
(35:33):
I won't do that anymore.
Hopefullythat's the response, right?
But if it's not the response,then it comes to a point.
Dad, I've asked you timeand time again to please
respectfully not text meabout mom about this.
Am I talking about mom?
So and and once again, see, thisis how many dynamics we have.
But you've got kidsgoing back and forth, right?
(35:55):
And of course we know.
I mean, sometimespeople are not at their best.
It's the leave it at that.
And I have a lot of kidsthat are terrified
because they're constantlybeing berated,
even when they're not there.
And they don't say anythingbecause they have to go back.
They're constantlybeing berated by the parent.
Whichever parent does,it's a parent, a parent.
And even when they're saythey're week on, week off,
(36:16):
even when their week off,they're like, I this.
Very still set boundaries.
But then they have to go back.
So that's what I'm saying.
This is this is hard.
Well, in my when I have issueslike that, this is where if I,
if the child is my is my clientand I pull in a parent, I do
I do these sessionsand I and I ask the child,
I make sure that you know,they're okay.
He's not goingto share other stuff.
(36:38):
But this is what I thinkneeds to be addressed,
and I want you to do itin a safe place.
So why don't we bring mom inor dad in or both,
and so that we can address it?
Because that usually helpsif they're reasonable parents.
Absolutely.
You know, that usually does helpthem, you know, pause on that.
And another thing too is that,when I've had done
like reunification therapyand they're like younger
children, of course,they don't have phones.
(37:00):
The name is, I always tell them,get on a little tablet,
get them a tablet where you canstill message on the Wi-Fi.
You can FaceTime your mom or dadwhen you're not with them.
Like there's not a worryabout them having a phone,
like making like, calls.
But you can restrict it.
So then have a tablet.
Hey, this is your tabletfor when you call mom or dad,
and it can go to both houses,right?
(37:20):
Because no one'sreally paying for its own Wi-Fi.
So here you go.
Get on the tabletand agree to that.
And that's usually a good mediumthat I found.
It's like, okay, well mom,or even if a same thing of one,
if a mom is okay with the phone,the dad doesn't like phone
because he wants themto focus on school and stuff.
Okay, then have the tabletbe a home base of just calls
(37:40):
and texts with mom. Yep.
And I think it is.
And I think with parents,even when we work with this,
one of the thingsI think they get stuck on too,
I go, your your kids are goingto continue to grow.
Thingsare always going to change.
And even with,you know, and again, you know,
I love asking the questionsbecause we know what we do
here, you know,and we're always like,
no, you bring in the parents,you know, of course we do.
(38:02):
And, you know,because I even tell the clients,
I said, ifnothing else, accountability
is now heldbecause if nothing else,
that they know that I know,you know.
And so that's a first stepis bring the village in so, so.
And set the expectationson the first session.
And I doand I tell them if I have to, if
(38:23):
I reach out to you then it'sbecause something has been said.
I need more clarification on itdoesn't really involve the
it involves the kid,but it's way above what he or
she should be dealingwith. Right?
And and I always get agreements,you know, they're like, oh,
no problem or okay,so if you set that expectation
the first time,you won't really have
(38:45):
that much of a problemthroughout the set.
And it's made methink about to like having
understandingthat you may have 2
or 3 kids, let's say,and they're all, let's say even
they're all around the same age.
Let's sayyou had like IRAs planned.
You know your part two years.
Don't expect to see one child's,let's say they're
they're functioning fine.
(39:06):
They're still excellingin school.
They're communicating,have a good relationship
with everybody.
Don't expect thatthat other child will have
the same response to the divorceand what's going on.
I don't hold them both.
Well, Johnny's fine.
He's dealing with everything'sfine. Like, why is it you know,
Mary doing,you know, doing as well?
Why is she, like,so angry with me?
(39:27):
You know, you know, meand Johnny are perfectly fine.
Why does Mary hate me and stufflike,
like, don't don't look at it as,you know, those two don't.
Yeah.
Don't compareand think that both kids
are going to respondand be healing the same way
because maybe Johnny is,you know,
just his mindset and his,his development is his different
or his response,his emotional response
(39:49):
is different.
So just that's another thingI want to point out
is I have to tell parents,it's like, okay, I get that
one kid is very close to you,and then this
your other daughterdoesn't want anything to do
with you.
She's having her own experienceand her own perspective of
and that is her reality.
So you need to respect that.
And we have to go whereshe's at,
not where your other child's at.
Absolutely.
(40:12):
And it's funnybecause the one that I'm working
with has something she does.
It's so beautiful.
She says, you know,I know that there's
always going to besome unbalance and emotional,
you know, in transition,no matter
good, bad or indifferent.
And she says, I just, you know,made a point that the first day
(40:32):
that we make that transition,it's kind of like no rules.
She goes, if they want to be inthe room, they're in the room.
If they want to cuddle with me,they cuddle with me.
They need help with homework.
If they want to eat cerealfor dinner
because I just kind of have saidI set the parameters,
this is what we can do.
And she was and I let them be.
And I was like, thank you.
I said, because again,so many times we know
even as adults that we get it'sthey're again
(40:56):
still trying to processtheir parents divorce
because they weren't allowed.
To see them. Right.
And you have adults thatI shared with some parents
before I go, you know, I gobecause one thing I don't want
you guys to do is play,you know, play
this child against, you know,I said, because you know what?
At the end of the day,when they grow up,
they're going to sit on my couchand they're going
(41:17):
to talk about you, about you.
I go,and it ain't going to be pretty,
because I think sometimesthe parent tries to like,
you know, you say, oh, well,he loves
her more than me or whatever.
And they try to, like, be thethe friend of their child
at that point.
They try, you know,because I've had kids that
come in and go, mom,my mom overshare,
(41:37):
you know, so they like you said,they start talking
about divorce.
So they start talking aboutadult stuff
and, you know, and the parentthink that they're doing
their child a service by,oh, we're going to get closer.
I'm going to pull themcloser to me.
So they won't like thator they won't like mom.
But no, they're going to talkabout you two.
Yeah.
Well and that's a good pointtoo, is, you know,
(41:58):
if you could think of handlike so I know if,
let's say a listener outthere is thinking like they're
in survival mode right now.
Right? They're not in thehealing journey.
They're in survivalat this point.
Right.
In the thick of itis if you can just think that
in ten years,five years, what a difference
you'll place, you'll be in,and this will all be a little
(42:18):
drop of sand in your life.
And just think ofhow old your child will be
at that point, right?
Depending onhow old the children are
when they are adults,they see and they will remember
how you reactedand how you treated them and how
you responded to the divorce.
And they will rememberhow dad or mom did vice versa.
(42:41):
So if you can remain as theeven if you're the only one
that is really focused onthe kids, let's say
you are like the better parent,you know, quote unquote,
and your focus on the childand you're
the one putting the child firstand you're doing everything
that you know.
You are your child,when they are grown, will know,
and they'll be able to see that.
And the what relationship willyou have with them at that time?
(43:04):
You will havea great relationship
because they're going to respectyou as being that parent.
That was like, you know what?
My mom and dad went through it.
But you know what?
My mom, she had you know,she was strength.
She showed maturity, sisters.
She was consistent.
She was focused on us,and she was always there for us
versus let's say, dad,you know, unstable,
(43:25):
different relationships,always mad at mom, always this.
They're going to remember thatone day
they may be only five nowand it may be coming in or out,
or maybe they're only ten,however old they are,
they're going toremember that feeling.
So even though they don'tremember
the context of situations,they're gonna remember
the feeling they hadwhen they were with mom or dad.
So try to keep that in mind.
A lot of times, too.
(43:45):
I say, you know, you got tostay out of that relationship.
I said, that is betweenthat child and that parent.
I said, and that is a wholeI mean, yes, you're
there, you're open, you'reauthentic and, you know,
and you just always stay.
Of course, you know,he loves you and she loves you.
And yes, that is terrible.
But you know, you are loved.
You are loved.
You are loved.
The capacity of love.
Does it always feel like that?
(44:07):
You know, and that's what I say.
You always give.
I mean, for your child,whether you feel it or not.
Of course your father loves you.
Of course your mother loves you.
And you know, it'sshe's having a rough time
right now and it hurts, but,you know,
so it's like the more we caninstill that confidence in them,
you know,because I've seen a lot of times
too, where, you know,I look at the kids
(44:28):
and, you know, as these grown,I said,
you are going to be the reasonthat your parents feel,
you know, Isaid, because look at all this.
But and I and thisjust really wise young people
and they and I'm like, wow,where did y'all come from?
I have some.
Of them, you know,and they give their parents
way more grace than I do.
And I kind of go on them.
They did whatI'm like in my head going
and they just go, you know what?
(44:50):
But that's just who they are.
And I go, wow, like,I mean, it's great.
And you actually just remind meis I have,
I have one, young personas well.
And in, in their 20sand had that divorce
and had one very toxic parent,I would say a toxic parent.
I don't know him that well,but that
description is like a toxic typeof controlling parent.
(45:13):
And he says all the timethat, you know,
there's there's no relationshipbetween him and dad, but
we're coming to terms of like,okay, are you going to accept
that that's who your dad is nowyou're in their 20s,
you get the choice.
Now, you didn't havea choice when you were 12,
but now that you're in your 20s,you do have a choice.
So your relationship with dadis now your choice.
(45:36):
That should feel empowered,you know, like
and trying to set up boundarieswith with them now.
Because guess what?
No one has control over you now.
You are control over you.
So that's another thing is likeif you are in your 20s
and I have a stigmaand you know, there's
another one there,great relationship with mom.
And she still struggles with,you know, mom still pours out
now that she's in her 20s.
(45:56):
Oh, that's likeher emotional support for
the boundaries.
And she's like, I love my mom.
You know, we haveI love that, you know,
we have a great relationship.
But sometimes I don't wantto be her therapist.
Like it's too much for me to seeand hear
what she's going through.
And I'm like, well,then you got to tell her,
because she clearly thinks thatbecause you're older,
that you can handlethese emotional things,
but you're just because you're25, does that mean
(46:18):
that you need to have,you know, your 50 year old
mothertelling you about her struggles
every day?
Because it does. Itdrains this person.
So I said, now we're talkingabout the boundary.
So even likeI said, this carries
with your kids as they're older.
So, you know, parents out thereand you keep in mind, yeah,
you need to keep it in mindthat it's going to affect
them in one way or another.
(46:40):
So divorce is not easy.
And divorce can be the bestthing for your children too.
And I know that's, you know, abig controversial statement is,
oh no, everyone needs to staytogether for their kids sake.
And, you know, peopleare entitled to their opinion.
I don't believe in thatbecause I think there's
very much toxic households.
And, you know,just because you're married
(47:00):
and you sleep in separate roomsand you hate each other
and stuff,that's not a healthy environment
for your children.
It's like, and people doand still happens every day.
They're like, well,we don't believe in divorce.
Okay.
So you're living ondifferent sides of the house
and you basically don'tspeak to each other,
and you sit down for dinnerand you guys go to your separate
ways.
That is what that is what nowyou're instilling in your
children of whatever you're.
(47:22):
You know, it'sokay to be miserable. Yeah.
So as long as you're the guestand you have no authority
over your life choices.
And then I have to.
And thenI have to check the parents.
If I have a parentlike that, I'm like,
so you're okay with thisand you believe in
that's totally respects youpeople's opinions that
that's that's what they believe.
But now if you're focusedon your children,
how would you feel if your childwas in that type of marriage?
(47:43):
What would you sayto your own child,
when I know you love your kid,I know your kid is a world.
So if your kid is a worldand you want the best for them,
then why would you think thatthat's okay for you?
If you don't want thatfor your own children?
Because that'swhat they're growing up.
They're grown up saying,yeah, this is marriage straight.
They're either notgoing to want to get married.
So you're right.
I don't want a marriagelike that.
That is wrong.
And they're going to startresenting
(48:04):
some one parent or both. I mean.
They're getting me one day.
So like I don't want that. Yeah.
That's crazy.
Or they're going to get marriedand they're
going to be miserable and thenbe like, well, this is my left.
Well, and I'mso glad you said that because I
mean, again,you know, good co-parenting.
I mean, I've been divorced20 years now, which is crazy,
(48:24):
but that was evenone thing with me,
because I was a childof divorce, and it was
very difficult.
And I just knew that, you know,I never wanted my child to ever
look at me and say, mom,why didn't you stand up for me?
Why were you not strong enoughto put me first?
(48:44):
And I mean,because that was always
my question with, you know what?
My family and,and everybody, you know,
and everything is what it is.
And everything was different.
Different times.
And, you know, as you grow,you start to see people
for who they are, you know?
And that's why I sayeven sometimes when they go
from parent to person,that's a hard transition to.
But, you know, and I love thatyou said that because, you know,
(49:05):
I have had people say,you know, oh, well, you know,
are you married?
Are you divorced?
Are you this or he's outI go one it's not about me.
I go into,you know, I'm here for you,
I said, but I'm you know,all I can say is that,
you know, we were better parentsthan we were partners.
And I said, you know, I am.
So that's the case with.
Yeah, you know, the factand we're very appreciative.
(49:27):
And, you know, even when my ex,you know, said he goes, hey,
you know, you raisedI thank you, thank you.
He goesbecause we have a great kid,
you know, and a great young man.
And he goes, you know.
Yeah.
So I mean and there isI mean there's a lot of that
and that's alland it is what it is, you know.
But again,it was like that's the thing
we sometimes think we're do it.
(49:47):
But are youthis here's the thing.
These are childrenlooking at you going,
hey mom, what do wedo? Hey dad, what do we do.
Oh, we're not doing anything.
We're not we. Okay.
Well nobody's happy.
This is horrible.
You know, like what am I.
And then you startand then the kids of course
they want to get out of there.
They don't want to. And then.
Yeah but you didn't do anything.
(50:07):
And it's emotionally abusive.
It really is. It's neglectand and it's sad.
And like I said,and a lot of people don't know.
And again, I could see itgenerationally.
Their own emotions.
They're in their own feelingsand they're not focused on
the children at the time.
They're just going through it.
And that's why I saylike survival mode
when you're in that survivalmode, you know,
that is the self reflection.
(50:28):
I've been there too, you know,but I think I've shared on
like one of the earlier podcaston, my mom had to tell me,
nella, what are you doing?
Like, you need to get your shittogether.
And I'm like, oh my God,you're right, you know?
And sometimes you need peoplelike that to tell you. So,
but yeah, so pretty muchoverall, I think this is a
really good topic.
Definitely. And covered a lot.
(50:49):
Yes, absolutely.
So if you're out thereand either
you're going through a divorce,just remember that,
you know, healing is a journeyand is an emotional roller
coaster.
It's not going to be easyaccepting the fact
that it's not going to be easy.
You're going to have good daysif you have bad days
and find a support system.
If you don't have a supportsystem, then go get an outside
like a therapist,because then we can help you
(51:09):
process all this stuff.
Absolutely.
And if you are going throughdivorce and you have children,
focus on those children.
And if you can't co-parentwith your child right now,
then do parallel parenting rightnow, get an app and,
just do that for now.
Maybe one day you can co-parent.
That's the goal is co-parenting,but it's not reality
in the beginning. It's just not.
(51:31):
So I think if everyone staysfocused on the end game
and how happinesswill come out of it,
if you're focused on thatand your own journey,
your own responsibility,hold yourself accountable
and that's all you arein control of. Absolutely.
So yes.
And Mike, very,very good, very good, very good.
We'll say well. Yeah.
(51:52):
So don'tforget to like and subscribe.
But yet is so. Strong. Yes.
All right.
See you next time. Bye bye.
Let's say yourhusband wins everything in court
because he has, you know, the 50something thousand
dollars lawyer.
Okay, let him take everything.
If he took everything from you.
He could never take youas a parent
and take your identity.
If you're going through itand you're starting to have
all that anger and resentment.
Try your best to let it go,because that's
not going to help you heal.
And if your journey is to healand find yourself, letting go of
(00:22):
the anger is the biggest thing.
And for me,and from what I see, is
when they let go of the anger,they.
So welcome everyone to episode15 of Therapist's
Unhinged welcome.
(00:44):
So today we're talkingabout a pretty important topic,
and that's about divorceand co-parent.
Teen and the kids.
Because let's get real, divorceisn't just about okay, I'm
breaking up the family, right?
You can actually lose yourown identity during divorce.
So we're going to get into thata little bit.
(01:05):
And, you know, definitely talkabout the mental health piece,
but you kind of focuson, you know,
the children involved and how,you know, kind of just
going through your identity.
So obviously,I mean, just to start.
What does it do to people likewhat we have, like with clients,
going through initially, like,who are they?
(01:27):
Especially when they've beenwith this person
for ten, 20, 30 years.
Sometimes I frequently hearthat people don't know who
they are anymorebecause they were the wife,
they were the mom.
They were involvedin this family.
And now they're like, lost.
Absolutely.
So I know that.
I see that as a big,you know, thing.
People coming in here for,you know, women, man,
(01:48):
they don't know how to processand figure out who they are.
So and I thinkit's a lot of it is to like it
depends on your age.
Yes, definitely.
Because I mean, in our age,we've seen a lot of people
that they went to school,got married.
So they've been married.
That'sbeen their whole adult life.
And then a lot of timeswhat I see is it's
when the empty nest happensand now they're going,
(02:11):
everything's changed.
Roles have changed who they are,like you said.
And they don'tthey don't have any idea
who they areand they don't have, you know,
so everything is just, a mess.
But I also, unfortunately,think it brings out the worst
in people.
You're right.
And that's where I heara lot of, like,
oh, I don't even knowwho that person was or this,
you know,this is someone different
that I'm divorcingand and things like that.
(02:34):
Absolutely. That is so true.
And, you know,I see a lot of that too,
especially in our age rangewhere they lose their identity
because they placed itin the spouse,
they placed it in the kids,you know,
you know, attending all the kidsactivities and different
things like that.
And then when the kids go offto college,
there's nothing in betweenthe two spouses but space.
(02:56):
The kids aren't thereto distract, the kids
aren't thereto go to the basketball game,
the cheerleading,you know, games
and all those different things.
And they don't know howto navigate as to empty nesters.
So a lot of, you know, thingsthat they didn't
have to focus on.
Now it's in the roomand they have to focus on it
and they don't know how.
(03:17):
Yeah.
How do you normally beginlike with a client like that.
Like saying like let's saythey've been married 20 years.
I've had a lot of clientsrecently.
It's very strange.
It's kind of all at oncewhen they got married young,
got married, you know,very young, in their late
teens or early 20s,and now they're 40s and 50s
and they're like, I don'tI don't even know what to do.
(03:38):
Like, I don't know what to do.
What do you usually say?
Like, how do you start thator what do you suggest?
I suggest we do,a lot of self-development, like
because it'salmost like a rebuilding, right?
A rebuilding or, you know, a remanifesting or re resurfacing.
Right? Because you get lostin a whole bunch of stuff.
(03:59):
So if your identityis, it's in there,
but it's like pared downbecause of everything else
that's been on it.
So it's like digging deep.
So we unpack the suitcasein the room. Okay.
You got your suitcase in here.
Let's unpack it.
You know, what are some thingsthat you've always wanted to do?
That maybe becauseyou got married and had kids.
You couldn't do.
And sometimes they'll go,oh, I don't know.
Because, you know, my,my husband was or my
wife, was my whole life.
(04:20):
And so when you break that apartfor them and say, okay, no,
no, no, let's just start here.
Let's start with one, two,three or ABCd
and then let's startputting it back together.
So we talkwe talk about interest.
What things? Interesting.
Well, before you got married,what were your interests?
Did you, you know,actually meet the
did you do those thingsthat you were interested in
or did you put themon the backburner?
(04:41):
And it doesn't matter if you didput it on the backburner,
of course,because when you have family,
sometimes you do have to put,you know,
your things on the backburner.
So we talk about the goals, talkabout what their interests are,
what what would you like to do?
You know, what do you lookforward to doing it.
And you start there and develop,you know, in that area.
And then we start tobuild on that
so that we they could discoverwho they really are outside of
(05:02):
or after the divorce.
I like that.
I was going to sayI actually am working with,
a wonderful family.
And, and it's funnybecause a lot of times
because, you know, I doI like to do the individuals
and the couples and sometimesit doesn't always happen.
It always happens. It's strange.
And it's like I'll have onethat presents and things.
(05:22):
It's this. But then,oh no, it's the marriage.
And then this isand actually we're finally
on the other side of it.
And what I have seen,kind of like what you said
is that I'm now having to go,wait a minute, wait a minute.
You weredifferent people over here
like and to say like, oh,this never happened
or oh, this in herebecause they start to discover,
(05:43):
oh, but I wanted thisand I wanted this,
and he's not given meor she's not.
I go, oh, I've got to slow down.
I said, becausethe roles that you played,
you did get all of that.
And, and like you said,and then I do a lot of like
and you were raising your kidsand that's,
that's what you were doing.
And nothing is better than that.
But this is for you now.
(06:04):
And so even when I get them inand we do some of the,
relational stuff,you can see how again, we talked
before about,you know, patterns.
And I said in their patternsof behaviors, no.
And communication stylesno longer fits where they are
and they evenand that they're not realizing
how nothing worksat this point in time.
(06:26):
And so even with that, it's likeand I do a lot of reframing
redirect and I'm going, yes,but this did happen
and that did happen.
And you guys are still togetherand, you know, and it's
almost like when it gets quiet,they're like
because they've been like,you know, we can handle
the turmoil or distractions.
You know, they don'teven realize that's what it is.
And, you know, now it's justquiet and you get to just be.
(06:48):
And they go, but be what it'slike, what what are we being?
Or if they are retired or what.
Now what the heck is that? Likethey don't have to live.
I know thattransition is so hard.
And, you know, for me,like usually
if they come in at that pointof, you know, divorce or
something, it'sit's like I noticed that,
you know, divorce seems likeit's an emotional rollercoaster
(07:09):
and you don't know where thatperson is on that roller coaster
when they're coming intothe office.
Are they on that,like super angry
and that side of the grief site?
Because really,divorce is grief.
And I tell people,I tell people that it's like,
okay, you're going to go,you're going to grieve.
So you're going tohave those stages of anger,
you know, resentment, sadness,all of those things.
(07:29):
So I just try to see, okay, hey,this is going to be
an emotional roller coaster.
Like there's no way around that.
I mean, what percentageof peaceful divorce
do you see out there?
Like very smallto where it doesn't, you know,
affect you emotionally.
So I just tell them, yep,you're on the roller coaster.
Here we go. Hold on tight.
Let's see.
You know how you're goingto go through all those things.
(07:51):
You know highs highs highs.
You're going to feel startfeeling great.
And then something's going tohappen. You're going to go low.
So I just meet themwhere they are and see okay
we're right here.
You're on a high right nowokay. You're going out dating.
You're liking to see who you areidentity wise.
Okay, good.
I'm glad you're at that space.
Have you processed though,where you have you gone back?
Like where? Where did you startin this, you know. Right.
(08:13):
So it really just depends.
But I mean, like overall you'reit doesn't matter
if you were marriedreally five years or 20 years,
you're having to redevelopwho you are. Absolutely.
And I know one thingyou said is kind of like,
what did they dobeforehand before?
Like what was their behaviorsand stuff before?
But it doesn't really matterbecause this is going to be
a whole new discoveryof who you are
(08:34):
without your spouse, you know,without being an intact
family anymore.
What about your dreams?
Maybe your dream dreamswas the white picket fence
and you thought you guyswere gonna be together
forever, right?
Because that's whypeople get married normally.
And that didn't happen.
So it's like your dreamsand every reality is crossed,
you know? So. Absolutely.
(08:55):
That's one thingthat I see a lot. Yeah.
And as I say, like,even like what you said
about the identity is thatsomebody said to me, well, he
goes, well, I'm starting over.
Okay.
Like, but why are we upset?
I mean, this clearlyand a lot of times that too.
And I thinkthere's a lot of blame and shame
and really trying to see.
And I said, listen, I saideverybody had a part in this.
(09:17):
And I said,you can continue to point out,
but if you don't point in,you're
going to repeat the process.
I said, useful change, littlefigureheads and everything.
And so even with that, I mean,there is so much self-reflection
and sometimes notand sometimes not, you know.
The ones that heal the bestand the fastest are the ones
that do have self-reflection.
(09:39):
Absolutely.
You know, and and, you know,even personally speaking,
you know,I've gone through divorce.
I'm pretty transparent about it.
And married like 15 years.
And it's one of those thingsto where it took my journey
was it tookmaybe some time to start
instead of pointing the fingerat everything he did wrong,
(09:59):
it was pointing inwardand having to do that.
But I realized that onceI was able to see my take on it
and you know, my part in it,you know, things
I was responsibleand not responsible for, right?
And it was able to just like,it's almost like clarity,
like you start to feel like,like, okay, I made these choices
because of x, y, z.
(10:21):
These were my choiceseven though I was young. Yeah.
I was, you know, 17when I met them.
I was very young, very naive.
But it's justit brings so much clarity.
So if I can encourage any,you know,
client out there, babieslisteners out
there is that, you know,if you're going through it
and you're starting to like,have all that
anger and resentmenttry your best to let it go,
because that'snot going to help you heal.
(10:43):
And if your journey is to healand find yourself, letting go of
the anger is the biggest thing.
And for me,and from what I see, is
when they let go of the anger.
Yeah, it's like dang.
Like I'm good when I start.
Stopped being angryat my husband.
Like, I swear by healing,like way faster.
Yeah, yeah.
And healing looks differentfor every person.
And then sometimesI know that you get, you know,
(11:06):
you get stuck in a cyclebecause you
if you have smaller children.
And I'm not sayingthat if the kids are grown
or off to college,you see, it's any easier.
But with with the smaller kids,it can be a lot harder to
because you're in,you know, a custody battle,
you may be in a custodybattle or, you know,
you have to decide, well,who gets the kids
on these holidays.
And they're and it can be anever ending cycle.
(11:27):
But you're right.
If you start to, you know, dothe inner healing, you know,
especially for yourself,then it helps your kids as well.
Because sometimes that angerand you know,
all of those emotionsspill over into the kids.
And now they have to strugglewith those same issues.
And remembering that even thoughit is a very hard time,
(11:48):
you know, it'snot just about you
or your spouse,but if you have those kids, it's
about those kids too,and how they.
Feel, because that'sa really good point is,
you know,if you do have children in it,
whether they're youngor whether they're teenagers,
they're goingto go through their own grief.
They're goingto have to heal as well,
because their realityjust changed.
(12:09):
And the thing that I see thethe hardest is that
it's out of their control,right?
It's the adultsthat are making these decisions
that childrendon't get to have a voice in it.
So one thing that I seethat hurts the children
hurts relationshipsbetween mom and children
and dad and children iswhen you're not giving them
any voice in anything.
(12:29):
So now they have to choosebecause you're angry at your ex
and now you're like, well,you're
your mom is it's not her day.
I don't care if you have thisin this in this going on.
It's my day, it's my time.
And it's like, what about whatyour child wants, right?
This is where I say,let go of the anger.
Because if you let goof the anger
and focus on your child, to methat's the number one.
(12:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And so I actually am doing thisnow because of my divorce.
And Reagan was three.
And so I, girl,you were saying and I,
I know it was devastatingbecause there was such a
lack of control, even whenand you're
trying to do the right thing.
And a lot of timesyou don't know what
the right thing is,and especially if you've had,
(13:13):
you know, someonethat wasn't really there,
but then you feel likeand you're trying to
and you're trying to navigateand you know, doing this, I do a
lot of research and all of it,you know, I know you do a lot of
reading of your application.
Where do family mediationsand stuff.
And so first thingI tell my parents or whoever
it is, is do your research,do your research, understand
the law.
(13:34):
You know,I say again, I said, there's
there's no room for emotionsand a court of law.
I said, law is law.
Does familylaw belong in a court system?
Not really,because it's all emotional.
But you know,I had a wonderful attorney and,
you know,he really walked me through it.
But, I mean, I let them comeand they give me the emotions
and we can talk them through.
I said, because,you know, you got to go in there
and remember what it's about.
(13:56):
I said, but even with that,I said, this is not
your children's fault.
And I said,it is not their place to carry,
you know, your burden.
And I said,but you got to remember,
they're alsohalf of that person.
So if you're speaking illof your husband or your wife,
your child's taking that onbecause they are half of
(14:16):
the husband or the.
Wife,and then they feel like that
tug, like they're in the middle.
Absolutely. It's not fair.
It's just not fair at all.
And I see it so much,you know, especially I mean,
that is what I specialize inis I love doing child custody
stuff and, and reunificationand things like that.
And, you know, partlybecause of my passion,
because of my own experience,you know, kind of
brought me into that field,but also because I know
what it can do to these kids.
(14:40):
I've seen it happen.
And so, like, if I tell anyparents going through this is,
you know, don't use your childas an emotional crutch, not,
do not,you know, tell your child
what's going on, you know, adultconversation,
stay adult conversations,even if you're angry.
That's when you goand vent to your therapist
or you go into your girlfriend.
(15:01):
That is who you meant to,you know?
And I get it. It'shard. It's not easy.
Been there.
See it. It's not easy to hold.
Hold. Poker face, you know?
But you have to put those kidsfeelings and and desires first
and what is best for them.
And and just remember,I like to tell people
this too is if,if they were in an intact family
(15:22):
and let's say bothparents were involved
in the child's life,like going to football games.
Go in here, go in there.
So just because you're divorced,how does you get in divorce
all of a sudden?
Make that person a bad fatheror a bad mother?
It doesn't make them a badmaybe make them about wife
or husband and that's fine.
Have them be a terrible wifeor husband.
But did that was that parenta bad parent?
(15:44):
You have to think about thatand separate it
or you may not like them.
They need be a narcissistand maybe this and that.
But at the end of the day,do they love those kids?
They want to be in their life?
Okay then.
So they can still bea shitty person
or shitty husbandor wife and be in those.
Kids, right?
Because if they've never putthe kids in harm's way
or do things that you know,that the kids, that is risky,
(16:05):
you know, for the kids,then I agree with it.
And sometimesbecause you're holding on anger
so you don't see that,but you know,
because I was gonna saycooperative co-parenting
is the thing and it can work,you know, because I do have,
you know,just even personally, like,
I, I've never beenthrough a divorce,
but my daughter,she went through a divorce
and out of the marriage,you know, my granddaughter,
my middle granddaughter.
(16:27):
Is that, like,stuck in the middle.
And I've always told them, look,I don't care
what y'all got going on,and I don't care how
you handle it, I honestly don't.
But when it starts to affecther, that
I have a problem with itbecause she should be able
to love you out loudand love him out loud
and there should beno cross-contamination on it.
And that's how it should be,because sometimes we, you know,
(16:48):
you get caught up in the will,you know, you love him.
And I had a client or familyand the mom saying, well,
he loves her.
He loves himmore than he loves me.
And it's like, it'snot about that.
It's about both of both of youbeing loved by the child
who you all created,who has nothing to do with
what's going onbetween the two of you
(17:09):
and that's where it needsto stay between the two of you,
you know? Yeah,because that's what I tell them.
I said marriage is a choice.
Parenting is forever.
Yeah. You chose this person.
Hey, don't say that.
You know, whatever.
And a lot of times you,you said something earlier
about like you knowholding on to that anger.
One thing I do hear myselfworking with them is that
they get.
(17:30):
So I wasted thisor I did what I go.
But did youknow, I said, think about it.
Did you go into this marriagethinking about being divorced?
No, you.
But you can't put this overthere.
You did what you didbecause you wanted
to, you know, or sometimes.
Or maybe because you want to.
Do orit was the right thing to do.
(17:51):
That's what I'm saying.
So. But but holding on to thatand then shaming yourself
for that.
Because if I go but again,that's
not going to help anythingbecause that's going to keep you
stuck over hereis part of your healing.
Learn from it, learn from it.
But again, it goes back to that,you know, now,
let me ask you all this.
How would you handle thiscoming to you?
(18:12):
Because you're you're a courtlady. So let's say that, we have
a situation with a custody issueand, and which we've seen to
where parents are now trying touse the therapist or.
Yeah.
Like, you know. Yeah.
How do you.
Yeah.
You know, and that's the thingtoo, is that, you know,
I love that parents chooseto put their kids in therapy
(18:34):
during divorce,even if they don't look like
they're having a hard time.
They probably are in some way.
Maybe they're suppressing it.
And I see that.
And then it comes outfive years later
and then you're like,oh my God, what happened?
And he never processedhis feelings and emotions.
So put your kids in therapy.
If you're going througha divorce, just to say like
just to kind of test it outand let that be an outlet
for them.
But another thing is,is don't use the therapy
(18:55):
as a tool, as a weapon,so that you can use it
against your spouse in court.
First of all, in our practice,we do not have
we have a zero tolerancefor that zero
tolerance of saying, okay, well,I want the records for the last,
you know, five sessions becauseI want to show my attorney,
but no, these children'srights need to be protected
(19:17):
and this needs to bea safe place for them.
And if your agendais to use your child's
emotions and feelings and outletas a tool, as a weapon,
you need some self-reflection.
You need to look in the mirrorbecause I will call you out
and I instruct peopleto call them out.
(19:37):
Like that is a zerotolerance thing.
Now, if your child is in dangeror having, you know,
thoughts of harm, self-harm,anything dangerous,
let's say they said, oh,you know, mom's burning me
with a cigaretor something like that.
Of coursewe're going to notify you,
but if it's just their outletand letting them
express themselves,I mean, maybe they hate
mom one day and maybe they hatedad the other.
(19:58):
You don't need to know that.
They're good.
They can.
They're ready to share withthat with you
when they feel like it.
Or when we feel as a therapist,it's the right time
to share that.
But yeah,that's one thing that I see.
We see it all the timein our practice therapists,
and we just immediatelysay, no, it's not happening
because it is about that child.
And if you want that timeto go to therapy,
then let them go to therapy.
(20:18):
Let that be with the therapist.
And and see and Iof course we know it,
but I think that that isbecause we do.
We have a lot of people thatcome in and they don't know.
They really don't know.
And I know they're hurtand everything.
And I know when we onboardsome of our new clinicians
and stuff, we say, you know,if there's ever anything I said,
we got to really, you know,protect these kids and pretend
they're all hurting, you know.
And I said, butand that is one thing I know.
(20:40):
I say,I call this first and foremost.
I said, I will always advocatefor your child.
I said, you all are adults.
You all are grown.
They don't really,I said, but they have me.
I said, you know what?
And this iswhat we're going to do.
So but you know, and that's whyI said, I mean, of course
we know what we do.
But, you know,I think that that was important
because I think a lot of people,they don't understand,
they don't.
You know, and I think toalso that's important
(21:02):
when you do have a,you know, a client who they're
a minor client and their parentsare going through a divorce.
You know, I bringboth the parents in also and
I don't share with themwhat we talk about in session.
But like you said,and all of the things
that they need to know,I share with them,
such as if one parent is bashinganother parent
in front of the childand they're having, you know,
(21:24):
their emotionsare all over the place
and they're like a messin my room.
And I'll tell them,I go, look, you guys,
I use this examplefor many of my, clients.
I go, okay, that's a busy,dangerous highway out there.
Like right thereopening up at level planning.
The causeway is very busy.
It's almost like one parentis standing where the Wawa is,
(21:44):
and the other parentis standing on the other side,
and you have your kidblindfolded and one
parent has their child here,and you push that kid out
enough, and they run expectingnot to get hit,
trying to make it over to dadand vice versa.
I said, that is what you guysare doing to your kid.
You're playing Russian roulette,expecting the bullet
not to hit them.
And it does every time.
I, you know, like that. Analogybecause.
(22:06):
They don't realize it.
And one parent,she actually sat in my room
and she was like,I never thought about it
like that.
I go, that'swhat happens when you talk
about dad in front of him,and when dad talks about him
in front of you and he's in heretrying to figure out what to do
with all of thatthat you guys have in him.
And it's not fair.
No, I like that.
That's very true.
You are playing Russian roulettewith your child doing that.
(22:28):
And even as thoseeven those bullets
don't hit him,it's freezing them.
Absolutely.
He's getting away from it.
Every time you have that curseword about your dad or your mom,
they're feeling it.
And one thing I want to,you know,
reiterate with parents out thereis that it's not your job.
You're not your primary goalis to win an argument
with your ex.
(22:49):
Your primary goal should beto protect your child's
nervous systemand to protect your child.
Absolutely.
And and that's the thing is,if you stay focused on that
and focus on your own healing,things will pan out.
Things will settle out, right?
Things will eventually be okay.
And even if you'redodging the bullets,
let yourself dodge the bullets.
Okay?
(23:10):
If you're dodging these badthings in this and you're
trying to stay calmand you're like, okay, I'm
going to go visit my therapistevery week, then about it, go,
go do that.
But if you're tryingto protect your child
and putting that child first,everything else will eventually
settle down.
And you know what?
It's if it looks like,okay, let's say
that other person has the money.
(23:32):
I know that's a big thing.
One person is worth,one person has,
or one person has all the money.
Okay, but let's say your husbandwins everything in court
because he has, you know, the 50something thousand
dollar lawyer.
Okay? Let him take everything.
If he took everything from you,he could never take you
as a parentand take your identity
if he can't take you.
(23:52):
And if someone isthat controlling, let's say
you are married to someonethat's like a narcissist
or controlling,has controlling traits.
Okay, then they will never beable to take who you are
and who you are as a mom.
They won't be ableto take that from me.
So just remember,what is most important to you
is it to win an argumentis to win in the courtroom,
or is it to win for your childand your child financially?
(24:15):
Well, and we even knowthat's what I say,
because I have that situationand they're almost on the other
side of it. And I've got the,not money side.
And and, you know, that sideis she goes,
I've learned so much, you know,and that's what she said.
She goes and I said,do your research, understand?
I said, because there are laws,no state of Florida's.
(24:36):
Everybody talksabout like state of Florida
has always beenone of the greatest states
for child advocacy.
And they have changedeverything.
And there's a lot of thingsthat happen.
You know,when you started the 8020,
then it was the 40and then it was,
you know, going for the 5050.
Now that's where they startfrom the 5050, like so I'm like,
okay, what are we really?
But I know you do.
You get so terrified of,you know,
(24:56):
is going to take my childrenbecause I was there, you know,
I was there because it was a nota great situation.
And I was a lot of fear.
And that's what I was told.
And isn't thatI didn't understand, you know.
And so that's what I said.
I said, you know, I willI never want anybody
to ever go through what I did,you know, ever.
Because it was it was awful,you know, a year and a half
(25:17):
and not knowing anything.
And it wasjust, you know, so terrifying
because you're livingin this state of confusion,
you know, so even with that,trying to make decisions
and so even one thatI kind of even tell my I go,
but we don't need to make all ofthese decisions right now.
Let's just go back to simple.
What are the basicthings that we need right now?
(25:39):
Just like,let's just go there, you know?
Because even with that,sometimes it's, you know.
Yeah.
And then and then another thingtoo, about, you know, parenting
and, you know, collaborativeparenting and co-parenting
and then, you know, everyonekind of knows what that means.
Like, you're you'rekind of you're co-parenting your
you may not like the person,but you're doing
what's right for the kids.
(25:59):
Both of you were on the samepage.
Well, then there'sthe parallel parenting.
A lot of people are startingto come around of what
that means, which is basicallyif you're dealing with somebody
a, an ex and the father,the mother, and they are just
you can't deal with them.
You like every timeeverything's a fight
and you are done fighting,let's say you've accepted it
and you're done fighting,but that other person
(26:21):
is not done fighting.
That is when youswitch from, okay,
you're not going to be ableto co-parent
with this person, right?
Because co-parenting takestwo people.
Parallel parenting though,that is when you're going
to go, this wayand you're going to do what
your part is.
You'renot going to have expectations
that this parentis going to work with you.
(26:43):
So what you do is you let themgo in their own direction. Yep.
And you just keep going your wayand you're and they're going
to go their way and use this.
That's the expectation nowbeing the bigger person
and being the bigger parent,if that's which is
let's say they do want to nowstart to co-parent
once they've healed,maybe they've gone to therapy.
Years go by, time heals, right?
(27:05):
You've let goof some of that anger.
Then you can read.
Maybe you can't co-parent again.
But in the meantime,if you can just parallel parent,
you're not attackingthe other person.
You're not having expectations.
You're just allowing yourselfto be at peace.
Absolutely doingbecause that is key.
And I got there.
I was able to finally parallelparent
(27:26):
as I went through horrible.
I can be in the same roomas my ex-husband.
We can be at the same place.
I could talk to him aboutthe kids needs no problem,
like I said.
Well,how would I think of him as
a person is differentthan who he is in my kids lives,
and he is a part of them,and it is what it is.
And now we can have totalconversation and we're okay.
And it is what it is.
(27:46):
Now we can co-parent,but the parallel parenting
is so good for peoplewho are still in that high
emotional state.
I agree with it.
I like you, I just want to.
Say parallel parking.
But but yeah, and I've heard of,you know, of course the.
Parents even heard that.
You know,I go to the park. Perfect.
But no, it is becauseyou know what that means, right?
(28:06):
Because and especiallyokay, you are in one household
and you know your two household,they may run differently, right?
They may run differently.
But both households still,you know,
keep in mind what is bestfor the children, right?
Because you know, I have parentsI like. Okay.
So bedtime at your house,you don't mind.
Like your kids can stay uptill 10:00 at night
(28:28):
and maybe at dad's house,they can only stay up to eight.
That's his rule.
Why is it hurting?
Is it hurting the kid?
No, because,I mean, the only thing is doing
what is absolutely right.
So if it's working onboth sides, the rules
don't have to look the same.
They just have to be, you know,the kid just has to have rules.
And I want to.
And I want to say something toyou as,
you said like, you know, doingwhat's best for the kids,
(28:50):
you know, there are so manygood, good parents out there
who look differently as a parentthan they do as a person.
Right?
So just because someone appearsto be a shitty person
on the outside doesn't meanthat they're not going to be
a good father or a good mother.
(29:11):
To. Their children. Right?
So that's one thingtoo, is like, oh my God,
did you see what he did?
You know how he actedand all that?
Yeah, he was pretty shitty.
Like, yeah, I wanted topunch him in the throat.
Well, you know what?
Here's your kids, like,worse off the ground.
His dad walks on that he lovesand gets excited to see his dad.
And that's the important thingwe should.
(29:31):
Exactly.
So, you know, that's one thingtoo, is I have like I had
and I still havesome great parents out there
that are in divorcesand they're just at each other.
And I'm, I see all these,the bad sides of these parents.
But I knowat the end of the day,
they love their kids, even them.
And they just the faiththat co-parenting.
And that's why I try to tellthem, do not try to go.
(29:52):
You're driving yourself crazy.
You are making it worsefor yourself and your children
because you're going to avengeand saying,
oh my God, your dad letyou have candy at 10:00, like,
that's diculouswhat kind of parent does that?
Yeah.
Is thatmaybe a healthy choice? No.
But is there teeth? Right.
You don't get to say that.
Does everybody.
Know?
Okay, then, you know,just make sure you go over
six months ago. See?
(30:13):
What can I say? Like, exactly.
Don't sweat the small stuff.
Right.
Know what I go is like await a minute.
So if you if he was orshe was parenting, you know,
y'all still be married.
Why all of a sudden do yourexpectations change when you go?
Well, we could go.
And I see that all the time.
But he shouldn't.
She should I go, oh what didthey would have already put.
(30:36):
Would you all still be togetherlike.
But now we have almostlike a higher expectation.
It's a good point,you know what I mean.
And I do and his like with you,sometimes
you just listen to him like,oh did you just hear what
you did?
They don'tthey don't like what you said.
You're like, I never thoughtabout it like that.
And then they're like this.
Yeah, I guess I just kind ofdumb, like know, but it's not.
(30:57):
But that'swhat you're conditioned to.
And so but I go, yeah.
And he's always been she'swhy are we surprised.
Right. Right.
And I think it's reallywhen they start
to slip out and stuffabout things like this,
like that little thingsthat we see as little.
But they're takingas big things, you know,
as I start to see like,okay, they're coming
from a place of anger. Yeah.
(31:18):
Then let's dig deep.
Where does that angercoming from?
Are they fighting you nowfor finances? Child's for.
Is that where you're reallyso now everything that they do
hitting you off and I get it.
You know when you don't likesomebody, it's
hard to have to deal with them.
Right?
So deal with them less.
Don't deal with themas much as possible.
Communicate. Get apps.
They have my family wizard.
Oh girl.
I have that on now that. Is.
(31:39):
No, no, that's not it.
It's all because I haveI have a parent.
We did.
We establisheda co-parenting plan
because at firstthey were doing the parallel.
And I think sometimesthey do it.
It still just depends.
But they were at that pointwhere they were like,
okay, we're readyfor the co-parenting plan.
And they do have the app.
They use an app.
You they don't reallythey don't pick up the phone,
they don'tcommunicate in crossing of,
you know, dropping offand picking up.
(32:03):
They communicate through the appand the app that they use
and everything that they need,and they're fine with it.
That's why I always recommend itwhen I as soon as I get like
almost like a first session,I'm like, would
how are you communicating?
Oh well with text it.
Nope. Let's let's put that off.
No, we're going to doyou know, instead we're going
to do some my family wizard and,and just do that
because then if,if one takes them to the doctor
(32:23):
and they have a follow up,you don't have to say Johnny's
teeth are, are good.
His next appointment is thatand then some kind of snarky
comment.
You're just asking for snarkycomments, so don't even do it.
Put it in there and then it'stheir responsibility.
Everything's in the grades,report cards, whatever it is.
Right.
Because that'sthe biggest thing.
Because when you're goingthrough the divorce
(32:45):
and that's again, it'sand we know
people are very conditionedand they allow this.
And again, but that's why I saythis is documented evidence.
Well he's not going toshe's not going to.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matterbecause the judge can't.
All they can dois with what they have.
Don't worry about it like you.
And it really does.
It's like they don't understand.
Like, I don't know, it's italmost makes it like, objective.
(33:06):
Put it out here.
But I do have a questionand I don't know
who wants to answer it,because this is one thing
that also I seenow that we didn't have,
you know, backis that not just the app, but
phones,parents contact and children
with lie about the phoneand you get that
and this is that well,this parent is berating this
(33:26):
child over here on this phone.
And that phone that's beena big thing that I've.
Had that also my whole okay,I've had where I want
parents like,well, I don't think they are
old enough to have a phone.
So I don't agree with themhaving a phone,
but mom or dad letsthem have a phone.
Okay,so when they come to your house,
(33:47):
if you don't agree with it,tell them not
to bring the phone, right?
If mom's okay with themhaving it, as long as there's
parental supervision over it,you know those things,
then that's mom's housewhen they come to your house,
if you don't agree with it,then you and mom have to come
to some type of agreement thatI don't want it at my house,
so it has to stay at yours.
So I mean, that was pretty much,you know what I've had to share
(34:08):
with like my parents who are oneis in agreement was life,
you know, but mostly I have mineare they don't
really care about the phones,you know,
as long as they can contactthe children on the phone
when they'rewith the other parent.
So maybe. Okay. So maybe okay.
So that is one thing.
But the other side is likeand I guess it happens a lot
with my teenage clients.
(34:30):
Is that there being there'shorrible messages
coming from the other side.
Through the child's like.
So if it's so say I'mthe child and it's dad and dad
is overbearing or whatever,you know, whatever.
And I'm at mom's house,but dad is reaching out to me
and telling me these like that.
I've had to navigate thata little bit, too.
I'm like, you know, how do I?
(34:51):
Because again, they're theparent, you know, how do we do?
I block. I set boundaries,I still set boundaries.
I set up boundarieswith the parent.
They're part of the they'rethey're your clients to it.
The parent is not involvedin the therapy with
let's say you have a teenagerand let's say the teenager
was 14, just for instance.
And it's the dad and the dadis not involved in therapy.
Then, you know,go ahead and say,
(35:12):
put boundaries up with your dad.
Let's talk about it.
Let's have a conversation.
What is a goodor a respectful way to put a
with dad and say,you know what, dad?
You know,I know that you're texting me
and you're angry with mom.
I would have greatlyappreciate it
if you didn't put it,because it does
damage me emotionally, you know?
Makes me very sad.
And it hurts meif he's a good parent,
which he probably is,is just saying, oh, I'm sorry,
(35:33):
I won't do that anymore.
Hopefullythat's the response, right?
But if it's not the response,then it comes to a point.
Dad, I've asked you timeand time again to please
respectfully not text meabout mom about this.
Am I talking about mom?
So and and once again, see, thisis how many dynamics we have.
But you've got kidsgoing back and forth, right?
(35:55):
And of course we know.
I mean, sometimespeople are not at their best.
It's the leave it at that.
And I have a lot of kidsthat are terrified
because they're constantlybeing berated,
even when they're not there.
And they don't say anythingbecause they have to go back.
They're constantlybeing berated by the parent.
Whichever parent does,it's a parent, a parent.
And even when they're saythey're week on, week off,
(36:16):
even when their week off,they're like, I this.
Very still set boundaries.
But then they have to go back.
So that's what I'm saying.
This is this is hard.
Well, in my when I have issueslike that, this is where if I,
if the child is my is my clientand I pull in a parent, I do
I do these sessionsand I and I ask the child,
I make sure that you know,they're okay.
He's not goingto share other stuff.
(36:38):
But this is what I thinkneeds to be addressed,
and I want you to do itin a safe place.
So why don't we bring mom inor dad in or both,
and so that we can address it?
Because that usually helpsif they're reasonable parents.
Absolutely.
You know, that usually does helpthem, you know, pause on that.
And another thing too is that,when I've had done
like reunification therapyand they're like younger
children, of course,they don't have phones.
(37:00):
The name is, I always tell them,get on a little tablet,
get them a tablet where you canstill message on the Wi-Fi.
You can FaceTime your mom or dadwhen you're not with them.
Like there's not a worryabout them having a phone,
like making like, calls.
But you can restrict it.
So then have a tablet.
Hey, this is your tabletfor when you call mom or dad,
and it can go to both houses,right?
(37:20):
Because no one'sreally paying for its own Wi-Fi.
So here you go.
Get on the tabletand agree to that.
And that's usually a good mediumthat I found.
It's like, okay, well mom,or even if a same thing of one,
if a mom is okay with the phone,the dad doesn't like phone
because he wants themto focus on school and stuff.
Okay, then have the tabletbe a home base of just calls
(37:40):
and texts with mom. Yep.
And I think it is.
And I think with parents,even when we work with this,
one of the thingsI think they get stuck on too,
I go, your your kids are goingto continue to grow.
Thingsare always going to change.
And even with,you know, and again, you know,
I love asking the questionsbecause we know what we do
here, you know,and we're always like,
no, you bring in the parents,you know, of course we do.
(38:02):
And, you know,because I even tell the clients,
I said, ifnothing else, accountability
is now heldbecause if nothing else,
that they know that I know,you know.
And so that's a first stepis bring the village in so, so.
And set the expectationson the first session.
And I doand I tell them if I have to, if
(38:23):
I reach out to you then it'sbecause something has been said.
I need more clarification on itdoesn't really involve the
it involves the kid,but it's way above what he or
she should be dealingwith. Right?
And and I always get agreements,you know, they're like, oh,
no problem or okay,so if you set that expectation
the first time,you won't really have
(38:45):
that much of a problemthroughout the set.
And it's made methink about to like having
understandingthat you may have 2
or 3 kids, let's say,and they're all, let's say even
they're all around the same age.
Let's sayyou had like IRAs planned.
You know your part two years.
Don't expect to see one child's,let's say they're
they're functioning fine.
(39:06):
They're still excellingin school.
They're communicating,have a good relationship
with everybody.
Don't expect thatthat other child will have
the same response to the divorceand what's going on.
I don't hold them both.
Well, Johnny's fine.
He's dealing with everything'sfine. Like, why is it you know,
Mary doing,you know, doing as well?
Why is she, like,so angry with me?
(39:27):
You know, you know, meand Johnny are perfectly fine.
Why does Mary hate me and stufflike,
like, don't don't look at it as,you know, those two don't.
Yeah.
Don't compareand think that both kids
are going to respondand be healing the same way
because maybe Johnny is,you know,
just his mindset and his,his development is his different
or his response,his emotional response
(39:49):
is different.
So just that's another thingI want to point out
is I have to tell parents,it's like, okay, I get that
one kid is very close to you,and then this
your other daughterdoesn't want anything to do
with you.
She's having her own experienceand her own perspective of
and that is her reality.
So you need to respect that.
And we have to go whereshe's at,
not where your other child's at.
Absolutely.
(40:12):
And it's funnybecause the one that I'm working
with has something she does.
It's so beautiful.
She says, you know,I know that there's
always going to besome unbalance and emotional,
you know, in transition,no matter
good, bad or indifferent.
And she says, I just, you know,made a point that the first day
(40:32):
that we make that transition,it's kind of like no rules.
She goes, if they want to be inthe room, they're in the room.
If they want to cuddle with me,they cuddle with me.
They need help with homework.
If they want to eat cerealfor dinner
because I just kind of have saidI set the parameters,
this is what we can do.
And she was and I let them be.
And I was like, thank you.
I said, because again,so many times we know
even as adults that we get it'sthey're again
(40:56):
still trying to processtheir parents divorce
because they weren't allowed.
To see them. Right.
And you have adults thatI shared with some parents
before I go, you know, I gobecause one thing I don't want
you guys to do is play,you know, play
this child against, you know,I said, because you know what?
At the end of the day,when they grow up,
they're going to sit on my couchand they're going
(41:17):
to talk about you, about you.
I go,and it ain't going to be pretty,
because I think sometimesthe parent tries to like,
you know, you say, oh, well,he loves
her more than me or whatever.
And they try to, like, be thethe friend of their child
at that point.
They try, you know,because I've had kids that
come in and go, mom,my mom overshare,
(41:37):
you know, so they like you said,they start talking
about divorce.
So they start talking aboutadult stuff
and, you know, and the parentthink that they're doing
their child a service by,oh, we're going to get closer.
I'm going to pull themcloser to me.
So they won't like thator they won't like mom.
But no, they're going to talkabout you two.
Yeah.
Well and that's a good pointtoo, is, you know,
(41:58):
if you could think of handlike so I know if,
let's say a listener outthere is thinking like they're
in survival mode right now.
Right? They're not in thehealing journey.
They're in survivalat this point.
Right.
In the thick of itis if you can just think that
in ten years,five years, what a difference
you'll place, you'll be in,and this will all be a little
(42:18):
drop of sand in your life.
And just think ofhow old your child will be
at that point, right?
Depending onhow old the children are
when they are adults,they see and they will remember
how you reactedand how you treated them and how
you responded to the divorce.
And they will rememberhow dad or mom did vice versa.
(42:41):
So if you can remain as theeven if you're the only one
that is really focused onthe kids, let's say
you are like the better parent,you know, quote unquote,
and your focus on the childand you're
the one putting the child firstand you're doing everything
that you know.
You are your child,when they are grown, will know,
and they'll be able to see that.
And the what relationship willyou have with them at that time?
(43:04):
You will havea great relationship
because they're going to respectyou as being that parent.
That was like, you know what?
My mom and dad went through it.
But you know what?
My mom, she had you know,she was strength.
She showed maturity, sisters.
She was consistent.
She was focused on us,and she was always there for us
versus let's say, dad,you know, unstable,
(43:25):
different relationships,always mad at mom, always this.
They're going to remember thatone day
they may be only five nowand it may be coming in or out,
or maybe they're only ten,however old they are,
they're going toremember that feeling.
So even though they don'tremember
the context of situations,they're gonna remember
the feeling they hadwhen they were with mom or dad.
So try to keep that in mind.
A lot of times, too.
(43:45):
I say, you know, you got tostay out of that relationship.
I said, that is betweenthat child and that parent.
I said, and that is a wholeI mean, yes, you're
there, you're open, you'reauthentic and, you know,
and you just always stay.
Of course, you know,he loves you and she loves you.
And yes, that is terrible.
But you know, you are loved.
You are loved.
You are loved.
The capacity of love.
Does it always feel like that?
(44:07):
You know, and that's what I say.
You always give.
I mean, for your child,whether you feel it or not.
Of course your father loves you.
Of course your mother loves you.
And you know, it'sshe's having a rough time
right now and it hurts, but,you know,
so it's like the more we caninstill that confidence in them,
you know,because I've seen a lot of times
too, where, you know,I look at the kids
(44:28):
and, you know, as these grown,I said,
you are going to be the reasonthat your parents feel,
you know, Isaid, because look at all this.
But and I and thisjust really wise young people
and they and I'm like, wow,where did y'all come from?
I have some.
Of them, you know,and they give their parents
way more grace than I do.
And I kind of go on them.
They did whatI'm like in my head going
and they just go, you know what?
(44:50):
But that's just who they are.
And I go, wow, like,I mean, it's great.
And you actually just remind meis I have,
I have one, young personas well.
And in, in their 20sand had that divorce
and had one very toxic parent,I would say a toxic parent.
I don't know him that well,but that
description is like a toxic typeof controlling parent.
(45:13):
And he says all the timethat, you know,
there's there's no relationshipbetween him and dad, but
we're coming to terms of like,okay, are you going to accept
that that's who your dad is nowyou're in their 20s,
you get the choice.
Now, you didn't havea choice when you were 12,
but now that you're in your 20s,you do have a choice.
So your relationship with dadis now your choice.
(45:36):
That should feel empowered,you know, like
and trying to set up boundarieswith with them now.
Because guess what?
No one has control over you now.
You are control over you.
So that's another thing is likeif you are in your 20s
and I have a stigmaand you know, there's
another one there,great relationship with mom.
And she still struggles with,you know, mom still pours out
now that she's in her 20s.
(45:56):
Oh, that's likeher emotional support for
the boundaries.
And she's like, I love my mom.
You know, we haveI love that, you know,
we have a great relationship.
But sometimes I don't wantto be her therapist.
Like it's too much for me to seeand hear
what she's going through.
And I'm like, well,then you got to tell her,
because she clearly thinks thatbecause you're older,
that you can handlethese emotional things,
but you're just because you're25, does that mean
(46:18):
that you need to have,you know, your 50 year old
mothertelling you about her struggles
every day?
Because it does. Itdrains this person.
So I said, now we're talkingabout the boundary.
So even likeI said, this carries
with your kids as they're older.
So, you know, parents out thereand you keep in mind, yeah,
you need to keep it in mindthat it's going to affect
them in one way or another.
(46:40):
So divorce is not easy.
And divorce can be the bestthing for your children too.
And I know that's, you know, abig controversial statement is,
oh no, everyone needs to staytogether for their kids sake.
And, you know, peopleare entitled to their opinion.
I don't believe in thatbecause I think there's
very much toxic households.
And, you know,just because you're married
(47:00):
and you sleep in separate roomsand you hate each other
and stuff,that's not a healthy environment
for your children.
It's like, and people doand still happens every day.
They're like, well,we don't believe in divorce.
Okay.
So you're living ondifferent sides of the house
and you basically don'tspeak to each other,
and you sit down for dinnerand you guys go to your separate
ways.
That is what that is what nowyou're instilling in your
children of whatever you're.
(47:22):
You know, it'sokay to be miserable. Yeah.
So as long as you're the guestand you have no authority
over your life choices.
And then I have to.
And thenI have to check the parents.
If I have a parentlike that, I'm like,
so you're okay with thisand you believe in
that's totally respects youpeople's opinions that
that's that's what they believe.
But now if you're focusedon your children,
how would you feel if your childwas in that type of marriage?
(47:43):
What would you sayto your own child,
when I know you love your kid,I know your kid is a world.
So if your kid is a worldand you want the best for them,
then why would you think thatthat's okay for you?
If you don't want thatfor your own children?
Because that'swhat they're growing up.
They're grown up saying,yeah, this is marriage straight.
They're either notgoing to want to get married.
So you're right.
I don't want a marriagelike that.
That is wrong.
And they're going to startresenting
(48:04):
some one parent or both. I mean.
They're getting me one day.
So like I don't want that. Yeah.
That's crazy.
Or they're going to get marriedand they're
going to be miserable and thenbe like, well, this is my left.
Well, and I'mso glad you said that because I
mean, again,you know, good co-parenting.
I mean, I've been divorced20 years now, which is crazy,
(48:24):
but that was evenone thing with me,
because I was a childof divorce, and it was
very difficult.
And I just knew that, you know,I never wanted my child to ever
look at me and say, mom,why didn't you stand up for me?
Why were you not strong enoughto put me first?
(48:44):
And I mean,because that was always
my question with, you know what?
My family and,and everybody, you know,
and everything is what it is.
And everything was different.
Different times.
And, you know, as you grow,you start to see people
for who they are, you know?
And that's why I sayeven sometimes when they go
from parent to person,that's a hard transition to.
But, you know, and I love thatyou said that because, you know,
(49:05):
I have had people say,you know, oh, well, you know,
are you married?
Are you divorced?
Are you this or he's outI go one it's not about me.
I go into,you know, I'm here for you,
I said, but I'm you know,all I can say is that,
you know, we were better parentsthan we were partners.
And I said, you know, I am.
So that's the case with.
Yeah, you know, the factand we're very appreciative.
(49:27):
And, you know, even when my ex,you know, said he goes, hey,
you know, you raisedI thank you, thank you.
He goesbecause we have a great kid,
you know, and a great young man.
And he goes, you know.
Yeah.
So I mean and there isI mean there's a lot of that
and that's alland it is what it is, you know.
But again,it was like that's the thing
we sometimes think we're do it.
(49:47):
But are youthis here's the thing.
These are childrenlooking at you going,
hey mom, what do wedo? Hey dad, what do we do.
Oh, we're not doing anything.
We're not we. Okay.
Well nobody's happy.
This is horrible.
You know, like what am I.
And then you startand then the kids of course
they want to get out of there.
They don't want to. And then.
Yeah but you didn't do anything.
(50:07):
And it's emotionally abusive.
It really is. It's neglectand and it's sad.
And like I said,and a lot of people don't know.
And again, I could see itgenerationally.
Their own emotions.
They're in their own feelingsand they're not focused on
the children at the time.
They're just going through it.
And that's why I saylike survival mode
when you're in that survivalmode, you know,
that is the self reflection.
(50:28):
I've been there too, you know,but I think I've shared on
like one of the earlier podcaston, my mom had to tell me,
nella, what are you doing?
Like, you need to get your shittogether.
And I'm like, oh my God,you're right, you know?
And sometimes you need peoplelike that to tell you. So,
but yeah, so pretty muchoverall, I think this is a
really good topic.
Definitely. And covered a lot.
(50:49):
Yes, absolutely.
So if you're out thereand either
you're going through a divorce,just remember that,
you know, healing is a journeyand is an emotional roller
coaster.
It's not going to be easyaccepting the fact
that it's not going to be easy.
You're going to have good daysif you have bad days
and find a support system.
If you don't have a supportsystem, then go get an outside
like a therapist,because then we can help you
(51:09):
process all this stuff.
Absolutely.
And if you are going throughdivorce and you have children,
focus on those children.
And if you can't co-parentwith your child right now,
then do parallel parenting rightnow, get an app and,
just do that for now.
Maybe one day you can co-parent.
That's the goal is co-parenting,but it's not reality
in the beginning. It's just not.
(51:31):
So I think if everyone staysfocused on the end game
and how happinesswill come out of it,
if you're focused on thatand your own journey,
your own responsibility,hold yourself accountable
and that's all you arein control of. Absolutely.
So yes.
And Mike, very,very good, very good, very good.
We'll say well. Yeah.
(51:52):
So don'tforget to like and subscribe.
But yet is so. Strong. Yes.
All right.
See you next time. Bye bye.
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