October 26, 2025 • 29 mins
This opening episode of the first season of Therapy, Coaching & Dreams (TCD), provides an introduction to therapy and life coaching. The cohosts provide a model for understanding personality, that is based on Jungian principles.
There are two different expressions of personality; masculine and feminine. These are not gender specific designations, but rather expressions that are in everyone. (Some people refer to yin and yang. The terms may be different, but the distinction is the same: Yin, the passive feminine, and Yang, the aggressive masculine.)
There are also two different types of energy; dynamic (forward movement) and static (organizational stability).
This results in four personality styles (STIR):
1. The Stabilizer (Masculine/Static) who brings order, systems and rules to contain chaos.
2. The Transformer (Feminine/Dynamic) who is visionary, creative and spontaneous.
3. The Initiator (Masculine/Dynamic) who is leading, forward moving and problem solving.
4. The Responder (Feminine/Static) who is nurturing, affirming, organized and relational.
Most people will find one style as dominant in their life, but everyone has access to all four energies.
This model of personality styles forms the basis for this season of Therapy, Coaching & Dreams.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
I am one of your co-hosts, DeeKelly, and I'm here with Jim
Shaley.
And we are a coach and atherapist who loves talking
about the inner journey and howit might transform our lives in
ways that help us to relatebetter to one another, relate
better to ourselves in the firstplace, and relate better to the
(00:35):
circumstances that we findourselves in all the time.
This is an introduction to amodel that is really based on
some jungian background, and itgives us an opportunity to
introduce you to something thatwe have found very effective in
our respective practices and inour conversations with each
other and with one another.
(00:56):
So, Jim, tell us about how thishas played itself out in your
practice and in your journey.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Great question.
For me, when I explain tocouples, the interplay of the
masculine and feminine, andbasically it's not very clearly
it's not male-female.
It's uh expressions ofourselves, both masculine, which
basically uh errs on the side oftasks, getting things done,
accomplishing things, initiatingthose kind of things, and the m
(01:24):
and the feminine, which isbasically relationally driven.
So anything that has to do withrelationships is a feminine
energy.
The way I conceptualize it, Ithink the way Jungian talks
about it, is this it that energyis in all of us.
And sometimes we've relegated itto the male plays out the
masculine and the female playsout the feminine.
(01:47):
And I I've realized that withcouples, it's a lot of
combinations of that.
And sometimes you'll come inwith a man who has more feminine
energy, and the wife will havemore masculine energy, but
she'll be frustrated that hedoesn't have as much masculine
energy.
So that was kind of the impetusof trying to, okay, that seems
to really help couples relax alittle bit and realize, okay,
(02:09):
we're not we're not role-definedin that sense.
We can access each of thoseenergies in ourselves.
We just have to know more aboutwhat that looks like.
So then I came up with a verycommon dynamic, which is the
four quadrants of behavior.
So I came up with the acronymSTIR, which basically stands for
(02:30):
the stabilizer, the transformer,the initiator, and the
responder.
The stabilizer and the initiatorwould be the masculine
expressions.
The stabilizer brings order tothings.
It's kind of like the policedepartment or the fire
department, anything thatprovides structure to a culture
or to society.
And in a marriage, there'ssomeone who typically does that
(02:51):
naturally.
The initiator is someone whoachieves, accomplishes, sets
goals, is driven in that sense.
That's that's the masculineenergy.
So that's the S, the stabilizerand the initiator.
The T and the R are more of thefeminine expressions.
The transformer basically isspontaneous, impulsive, fun,
(03:15):
kind of carefree, creative,highly high, usually pretty high
energy.
And the responder is more of acaregiver.
So they take care of things,they anticipate needs, they're
really engaged in the care ofothers.
That's feminine energy.
Again, simply relationallydefined.
(03:36):
In fact, the feminine has moreputs more emphasis on how things
affect their relationships,whereas the masculine has more
emphasis on getting things doneor accomplishing things.
Both are really essential.
Both uh all of all four of them,in my conceptualization, and I
(03:57):
think I'm not, it's not uniqueto me, but from my
understanding, it's it's in allof us.
So the goal really is at anygiven moment, with whatever
decision I have, where do I needto be?
Do I need to bring some order tothings?
Do I need to be more creativeand think outside the box about
the possibilities?
Do I need to just initiate somethings or do I just need to take
(04:18):
care of some things and nurturethings?
So, with that said, that's kindof how I frame individuals and
couples counseling.
For me, in the beginning, itseemed to work more effectively
with couples because they werestruggling with those roles.
And for example, I'd havesomeone, again, back to what I
alluded to earlier, whereas thethe uh the wife in this
(04:41):
relationship typicallystruggling because they want the
man to the man to be moremasculine or take charge or to
lead more.
And that's not a natural energyfor them.
So I would explain the dynamicand say, this is kind of where
you're at.
And so it would diffuse the ideathat it was kind of some kind of
a personal attack to each eachof the others as far as how they
(05:01):
lived their lives, but it wasjust a natural expression of
energy for uh for thatindividual.
And that really seemed to reducethe anxiety that we have a bad
marriage or or uh we're a mess.
So that explanation just reallyhelped a lot in people taking a
deep breath and realizing, okay,there's some hope here that we
can we can see this relationshipdifferently.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
Aaron Ross Powell That's great.
Let me ask you to go a stepfurther with the distinctions
between those four personalitystyles you referred to four
quadrants.
But it's probably appropriate todescribe them as four
personality styles.
But what I hear you saying, andand correct me if I'm wrong,
that we tend to migrate to aparticular style, yet we have
(05:49):
access within us to all of thosedifferent energies.
And as we move toward health, welearn how to access those
different approaches when thesituation calls for it.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
We usually have we usually haveone natural bias that comes easy
to us for whatever reason.
And I think as you grow andunderstand, and even the tension
of relationships will bring thatout.
Probably the old school adagewould be that you you live out
the feminine, I live out themasculine, very role-defined.
Perhaps relationships back inthe 50s and 60s were more
(06:26):
prominent of that.
And as we as we've grown inunderstanding ourselves, we've
realized that no, we really canaccess all of those inside of
ourselves if we're if we have anincreased understanding of
ourselves, if we really seethat, okay, I'm I'm looking to
this person to kind of make mylife better or save my life, and
(06:47):
we realize they can't, and thenwe have to access some different
energies.
For example, if you want yourspouse to be more caring or more
giving or whatever, and theyjust can't access that, well,
then can I do that for myself?
Can I take care of myself?
But again, it's played out alittle differently when I'm
working with an individual orwith a couple.
(07:09):
Because the couple dynamic kindof affects what that looks like
on some level, but ultimately itcomes back to the individual
expression of that.
How do I do that inside myself?
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
Aaron Powell Which will, in a later episode, take
us down the direction ofprojection and how we impose
that inner need or desire ontoother people.
SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Absolutely.
And that's what inhibits theinternalization of this formula
in that sense.
Because I keep thinking, well,if you do if you would just do
do that, you know, we'd be okay.
In couples therapy, a lot of thetimes, they point fingers at
each other.
If you were just this way, we'dbe fine.
And that's that's never true.
(07:52):
And that's where the beginningprocess of trying to pull that
up pull that back and think backto your point about that's the
beginning of projection oridentifying it's a projection.
And what can I can I do thatmyself?
And you still want to obviouslyyou want to be interdependent.
You don't want to just beislands living together because
we're silos now and we don'tneed each other.
(08:12):
It's just working, workingthrough that with a better
understanding and explanation ofit.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Aaron Ross Powell In describing that acronym, Stir,
you took two in each category,one that is more of a masculine
ex not not one, but two that aremore masculine in their
expression, that being thestabilizer and the initiator.
Right.
And then there are two that aremore feminine in their
(08:38):
expression, the responder andthe transformer.
So could you help us tounderstand the dimension that
separates the two that arewithin each category?
So start off with the stabilizerversus the initiator.
Both of those tend to bemasculine in the way they get
expressed, but there is adifference between dynamic and
(09:04):
static or yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
That's a great way of looking at it.
That's exactly what happens.
The initiator is more dynamic,and the stabilizer is more
static.
And by that I mean basically adynamic individual keeps moving
forward.
They keep looking at newopportunities.
The static brings order to whatis.
So if there's a kind of achaotic organization, they'll
bring in someone that really hasa good handle on bringing
(09:29):
structure to things, which iskind of basically the what the
stabilizer does.
It stabilizes the system.
They err on the side of beingmaybe too static, but the
natural partner of that is theinitiator in the masculine
expression.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
So do the same thing for the feminine expressions,
the transformer and theresponder, both of those being
feminine expressions, which oneis the dynamic one and why?
And which one is the more staticenergy?
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
The dynamic one is a great one.
It's the transformer, in thesense that they're always having
fun, they're always thinkingoutside the box, they're very
creative, they're great at aparty, they just bring a
different life to them.
And they again, they don'tnecessarily think of how they're
affecting others.
They're just having a good time.
(10:23):
The responder is more static.
The responder in a different wayanticipates needs but brings
order to things as well.
So that's why it they allinterplay in some ways, but the
responder, the classic look ofthe responder is basically
anticipate needs.
So they're oftentimes matched upnaturally with the transformer
(10:45):
because the I mean uh with theuh stabilizer.
I misspoke there, but thestabilizer, because they're so
spontaneous and fun that theyneed someone to kind of bring
order to their lives.
So that oftentimes you'll findthat in a relationship, that
that's a natural attraction,just like the initiator and the
(11:05):
responder is a naturalattraction in some ways.
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
It seems to me that there can not only be a dominant
personality style, but there canbe a dominant way of expression
so that I am far more able toaccess the static side of life.
I like organization.
I can do that in a nurturingfashion, or I can do that in a
(11:32):
spreadsheet fashion.
I can do it as a stabilizer, orI can do it as a responder.
And it's the dynamic side oflife that feels a little
frightening or chaotic, and Iresist it whether it's
transformer or initiator.
And the flip side of that iswhat I was just asking about a
(11:54):
few moments ago, and that is Ican be so dominated by this
forward thinking, this movementconstantly, that I have a
natural tendency to be atransformer or an initiator, but
I also appreciate anyone who'sgetting us to move forward and
find myself attracted to thatover and over again.
(12:15):
And then I would say that Icould also simply be dominated
by a masculine expression, thatI am I am avoidant of relational
connectedness or concerns.
And I always want to default tothe logic side of things.
And so it's this masculine sideof doing things, solving
(12:39):
problems, moving forward.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
Absolutely, yes.
The masculine is basically asyou described, it wants to get
things done.
They minimize the importance ofthe relationship.
Naturally.
And if they aren't balanced, ifthey don't balance the feminine
side, you can see how that wouldaffect a relationship.
They would come across as nothaving empathy, not really
caring about the family orwhatever.
(13:03):
And the feminine would speak upand say, What are you doing?
Why are you working so much?
Well, that's that's my role.
So that's why we've, in thepast, stereotypically looked at
the masculine energy goes outand provides and protects.
The feminine energy stays homeand protects and provides
differently.
They create a nest.
The classic traditional way oflooking at the masculine and
feminine, the feminine stayshome and nests and makes the
(13:26):
family comfortable and takescare of everything.
The masculine goes out and killsthe, you know, kills the animal,
brings them home, and all that.
Well, in my mind, that's thatthat served us well.
But now I think we're movinginto a different place where
really each individual has thoseenergies.
And what does it look like toreally express those within?
(13:47):
Not not to discount the ideathat obviously you still want to
be cooperative and work inrelationships, but to carry the
load of the feminine at homesometimes, and uh for the
feminine to carry the load ofthe masculine.
That happened, you know, back inthe 70s when women started to go
back to work.
I think it really shiftedthings.
And now most places have doubleincomes.
(14:08):
Well, we're trying to we'restarting to appreciate each of
the expressions.
For example, when a when a Ithink a woman was feeling
underappreciated at home, to usethe stereotypical frame, they
were feeling underappreciated,so they would go back to work,
whether they needed to forfinancial reasons or because
they the kids were gone and theydidn't have a a a clear focus of
(14:32):
things.
Well, why do they do that?
Well, they may have been feelingunappreciated by the masculine
who was out working andminimizing the what the feminine
was doing at home.
So then the feminine jumped intothe masculine mode to go to work
to get appreciated.
So then the masculine had tostay home and take h take care
of the kids or help with thekids.
(14:53):
And that that again gave them anappreciation of the feminine and
what the feminine did.
So I see that as the interplayof what's what's happened the
last 30 or 40 years.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
Thank you.
I'm gonna ask you to dosomething for me.
I'm gonna use the STIR acronym,and it is these personality
styles, we're gonna be referringto them throughout this season
of conversation.
Uh so I would like at thebeginning of all of this, just
to give a couple handles.
You did it well, but I'm justgonna go one by one through the
(15:28):
STIR acronym.
And when you mentionedTransformer, you said, oh,
that's it.
It's a great one because youidentified some of the positive
characteristics.
I was a little defensive becausewhen you referenced the
stabilizer, which probably iswhere I lean into, you named all
of our negative characteristics.
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
So I'm not sure what that prejudice is about.
Well, I think I think you have abias of interpreting as
negative.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
But I would actually like you to do that for all
four.
SPEAKER_00 (15:58):
So what I'm a transformer, so of course I'm
gonna think me in a good light.
I mean, of course.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
Yep.
So I would like you to say whenit's functioning well, this is
where you see it come to life.
And either in its absence or inits toxic form, what might it
look like?
Okay?
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Let's start with a stabilizer,and you can repeat the toxic
stuff that you've already said.
But start off with in its bestform, what's the stabilizer
(16:29):
doing?
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Oh man, it's it's the one that I probably over my
lifetime have struggled with themost because it tries to
contain, in my opinion, iscontain the stabilizer or the
dreamer.
So the stabilizer is So let'sstart with the toxic stuff then.
SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
Thanks, Jim.
SPEAKER_00 (16:45):
The stabilizer is absolutely essential of life.
It it brings order.
It it is such a valuable energy.
It really is.
And I I know I'm smiling becauseuh, as I'm saying it, it it
feels restrictive, but it reallyisn't.
And that's why a transformer, anatural transformer that begins
(17:08):
to appreciate the stabilizer,it's such a journey because they
they just resist it naturally somuch of the time because they
feel like it's restrictive.
When really it is such animportant dynamic.
I mean, you think about itnaturally, it's the first four
or five years of life for achild that a mother's energy
(17:30):
usually brings that stabilizingenergy because it has to.
They have to organize thatchild.
And it's so important.
Without that structure, thatbeginning four or five years of
structure, of course, the childis is a much different dynamic
in that sense to bring order tothings.
So yeah, it's it's absolutelyessential.
It's life-giving, it's alsomisunderstood most of the time.
(17:52):
And then from that point.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
And it's when it is not in balance, it does as
you've already described, itbecomes very judgmental, it's
very restrictive, and it setsboundaries that it's always
corrective.
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Yeah, the classic thing is always corrective, you
set it wrong.
And again, the transformerpersonality is so is so
impulsive and spontaneous, youcan see where the natural
attraction is.
But at the same time, it's likethe transformer brings fun to
the stabilizer, stabilizerbrings order to the transformer.
It's a really nice match, butyou have to respect the
(18:27):
differences.
And that's that's sometimes thechallenge.
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Since T Transformer is the second one in the
acronym, you've mentioned somereal positive characteristics of
the Transformer.
When the Transformer is actingin a dysfunctional way, what are
some of the things that takeplace?
SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
Aaron Powell Becomes way too excessive.
They push the limits, they pushboundaries, they're risk takers,
and the negative, real negativeside of that is oftentimes they
be they become embroiled withaddictions.
Uh because they're they're sothey're so full of energy and
spontaneous kind of dynamicsthat that they uh the pushing
(19:04):
the limits, whether it'sgambling or drugs or alcohol, uh
they can really get caught up inthat.
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
Thank you.
Let's move to the initiator,which is a dynamic masculine
energy.
When it's functioning well, howdoes it show up?
What where do you see it in yourown life or in someone else?
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
They're uh oftentimes they're just natural
leaders.
They they see what needs tohappen and they they're in a
crisis situation, they're theones that will jump in and
they'll just organize things,just how they think.
That's a natural, natural uhagain, a natural energy
expression.
They initiate to put it to Imean, how do you expand on that?
(19:46):
If they see a problem, they jumpin right away to how can we fix
this?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
And when it is out of balance, what does it look
like?
SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
They're dictatorial, but in a different sense than
the stabilizer, because thestabilizer becomes dictatorial
and judgmental.
But the initiator becomes Imean, the extreme expression
would be more like a cultleader, that they really
dominate personality types andthey don't they don't listen to
anybody, they don't payattention, they just keep moving
(20:20):
forward with their plan and thuh they can get people to follow
them, but usually it's it's morecultish in that sense.
I mean, that's really theextreme.
The the negative side of thattypically is they don't listen
to feedback at all.
They would just they would justmake a plan, implement it, not
listen to much m many negativesabout it, they would just keep
(20:42):
doing it.
And didn't they wouldn't reallycare how it affects the the
organization or the family.
It's kind of like the initiatorwould say, we're going for the
family would be like, we'regoing on this vacation.
And it wouldn't there wouldn'tbe any discussion about it,
there wouldn't be any feed ffeedback.
We would just simply go do that.
That's the vacation we're doingbecause they wanted to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
Gotcha.
And then the responder, you'vealready mentioned some of the
wonderful characteristics.
They are attentive to the needsof others and know how to do
that well.
When that particular expressionis not healthy, how does it show
up?
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Aaron Ross Powell They're enablers.
They they don't have goodboundaries, they overfunction,
they become smothering in someways that they anticipate so
many needs that it's restrictiveof of individuals.
But it's all it's allwell-intended from their
perspective, but they become socaught up in meeting everybody's
(21:40):
needs that it can feel like it'sit's it's oppressive or
smothering.
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Aaron Ross Powell I know this is probably a tangent
for another episode, but when aresponder who is so attentive to
other people's needs eventuallyfinds that less than fulfilling
and they become resentful, isresentful a consequence of a
movement toward balance becausethey see it's not working, or is
(22:06):
it a natural consequence ofbeing a nurturer that eventually
you don't get back what you'vebeen given away?
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
That's a really good question.
Uh it's a little bit of both.
I think for the most part, whena responder, for me, for in my
work, a lady a lady might comein in her late 40s, early 50s,
and they're exhausted,depressed, and can't figure out
why.
And I ask a few questions, andit it only takes a little little
(22:35):
time to discover that they'veoverfunctioned, they've given
everything they can, the theirhusband typically works all the
time, the kids are takingadvantage of her, nobody's
respecting, nobody's helping outat home.
And I'll simply say, so itsounds like you overfunctioned
at home.
And almost immediately they'llidentify, although I may ask the
(22:55):
question, what does that mean?
And I'll describe it, that youtook care of everybody.
You anticipated everybody'sneeds, and you didn't get any of
your needs met.
And they almost always resistinitially and say, Well, that's
not what I did it.
And I go, I understand that onthe surface, but you're you're
getting really bitter and angryabout it.
So obviously there must havebeen something you were
expecting back.
And it takes them a while forthem to acknowledge that,
(23:16):
because that seems selfish.
But once they do, they realize,okay, I gave too much.
And so then unconsciously, in awhole different dynamic,
sometimes they'll they'll feelthat first and they'll go to
their husbands and say, I reallywant to go back to work.
And the husbands will be reallysupportive of that until they
actually do it.
(23:37):
Because then the husband itshakes them up because now that
they're not home taking care ofeverything.
But that's usually theunconscious way to try to
address the fact that I'm notgetting some needs met, so I
want to go back to school or Iwant to do something, I want to
go back to work.
But if they if they come to meand they're just depressed,
typically you go through theprocess saying you you've
overfunctioned and you've you'vegiven away your best.
(24:00):
And now can you even see thepossibility of giving to
yourself, which is theinternalization of what we're
talking about?
How do I use the responder totake care of me when I've used
it to take care of everybodyelse?
It's great.
SPEAKER_01 (24:12):
And let me make a bridge as kind of a last summary
piece here.
You gave some great examples,and so often the best examples,
because we can see them livedout, are in relationship.
So when a style comes intoconflict, so the very thing that
was attractive in ourrelationship at the beginning
(24:34):
becomes problematic years intothe relationship.
The very thing that attracts youdrives you nuts.
Absolutely.
And that's in part because we'veexternalized everything.
And part of this season thatwe're doing is to move that
conversation inward and say, howdo I examine my own journey so
that I might be in a healthierplace?
(24:56):
So kind of wetting our appetitefor where we're going in the
future here, if if I'm a let mesee you use the example of the
nurturer, and often attracted toan initiator.
So if I'm a responder, anurturer, and you're telling me
that I need to pay attention tothe initiator side of my life.
(25:22):
I need to I need to take chargeof some things that uh feels
like an absolutely foreignlanguage.
And where do I begin that firststep of trying to see myself as
having within me the access tothat kind of energy?
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Well, with the responder, it's pretty easy
because you basically point outhow they initiated every
possible thing for theirchildren.
And they go, Oh yeah, I mean,didn't you keep track of their
homework?
Didn't you keep track of all andthey almost go, Oh, well, yeah,
I did.
That's the initiator.
So you gave away your initiatingenergy to others as opposed to
yourself.
(26:04):
And that's that makes sense.
But again, to your point, it'sstill that's a nice concept.
But to actually try to do it, itfeels selfish.
So you have to get through theirbias as to as far as how they
see that.
And so if they see it beingselfish, I have to reframe it
and say, well, it was it was itwas pretty selfish to initiate
for others.
Because that's where yourwell-being was tied up in.
So you have to kind of do thatkind of flip as far as the
(26:26):
purpose it was serving them eventhen.
Because again, that's w we'reusing our natural expression
typically in a selfish waybecause it's how we function.
But we think we're giving itaway, especially the responder.
But yeah, that's that's a greatexample.
It's easy to it's pretty easy atsome point to get them to
identify the differentexpressions in their lives.
But again, it may be expressedin a moment when they have to,
(26:50):
so it doesn't feel like they cannaturally do it.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Yeah, to make to make a a conscious choice.
SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
Right.
Absolutely.
They have to wait till it getsso stressful that they do it, as
opposed to realizing, oh man,see, so I could really I could
really do that right now andwouldn't have to wait till it
gets really very upsettingbefore I do it or
trauma-traumatic.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
I think one of the ways by which we begin to think
inwardly is to do what we aretrying to do in this series.
We're going to start lookingback in order to move forward,
looking at our family of origin,what it was like when we were a
kid, how our families handledemotion.
And when we examine thosethings, we see a little bit of
(27:34):
maybe why we developed the waywe developed it and that it was
part of our survival.
It worked for us.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Aaron Powell Yes.
Yep.
And again, we we develop thosetypically you develop those uh
ways to cope really early on.
So we don't even know we'redoing them.
So by five or six or seven, youfigured out how to function.
That can serve you well untilobviously the classic thing,
which is until it doesn't.
So that's usually midlife.
SPEAKER_01 (28:03):
So that's usually when people seek out coaching or
therapy.
Yep.
That's so true.
Or or dreams break through intoconsciousness and startle you
away.
SPEAKER_00 (28:13):
Absolutely true.
That's absolutely true.
Yeah, I'm looking forward tothat series with you as well.
SPEAKER_01 (28:18):
Aaron Powell Wonderful.
Uh we hope all of you will joinus in this journey and we are
looking forward to where thistakes us.
Thanks, Jim.
Good to be with you.
Great, good to be with you.
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
(28:42):
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing.
(29:04):
Stay curious and take good careof yourself.
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams.
I am one of your co-hosts, DeeKelly, and I'm here with Jim
Shaley.
And we are a coach and atherapist who loves talking
about the inner journey and howit might transform our lives in
ways that help us to relatebetter to one another, relate
better to ourselves in the firstplace, and relate better to the
(00:35):
circumstances that we findourselves in all the time.
This is an introduction to amodel that is really based on
some jungian background, and itgives us an opportunity to
introduce you to something thatwe have found very effective in
our respective practices and inour conversations with each
other and with one another.
(00:56):
So, Jim, tell us about how thishas played itself out in your
practice and in your journey.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Great question.
For me, when I explain tocouples, the interplay of the
masculine and feminine, andbasically it's not very clearly
it's not male-female.
It's uh expressions ofourselves, both masculine, which
basically uh errs on the side oftasks, getting things done,
accomplishing things, initiatingthose kind of things, and the m
(01:24):
and the feminine, which isbasically relationally driven.
So anything that has to do withrelationships is a feminine
energy.
The way I conceptualize it, Ithink the way Jungian talks
about it, is this it that energyis in all of us.
And sometimes we've relegated itto the male plays out the
masculine and the female playsout the feminine.
(01:47):
And I I've realized that withcouples, it's a lot of
combinations of that.
And sometimes you'll come inwith a man who has more feminine
energy, and the wife will havemore masculine energy, but
she'll be frustrated that hedoesn't have as much masculine
energy.
So that was kind of the impetusof trying to, okay, that seems
to really help couples relax alittle bit and realize, okay,
(02:09):
we're not we're not role-definedin that sense.
We can access each of thoseenergies in ourselves.
We just have to know more aboutwhat that looks like.
So then I came up with a verycommon dynamic, which is the
four quadrants of behavior.
So I came up with the acronymSTIR, which basically stands for
(02:30):
the stabilizer, the transformer,the initiator, and the
responder.
The stabilizer and the initiatorwould be the masculine
expressions.
The stabilizer brings order tothings.
It's kind of like the policedepartment or the fire
department, anything thatprovides structure to a culture
or to society.
And in a marriage, there'ssomeone who typically does that
(02:51):
naturally.
The initiator is someone whoachieves, accomplishes, sets
goals, is driven in that sense.
That's that's the masculineenergy.
So that's the S, the stabilizerand the initiator.
The T and the R are more of thefeminine expressions.
The transformer basically isspontaneous, impulsive, fun,
(03:15):
kind of carefree, creative,highly high, usually pretty high
energy.
And the responder is more of acaregiver.
So they take care of things,they anticipate needs, they're
really engaged in the care ofothers.
That's feminine energy.
Again, simply relationallydefined.
(03:36):
In fact, the feminine has moreputs more emphasis on how things
affect their relationships,whereas the masculine has more
emphasis on getting things doneor accomplishing things.
Both are really essential.
Both uh all of all four of them,in my conceptualization, and I
(03:57):
think I'm not, it's not uniqueto me, but from my
understanding, it's it's in allof us.
So the goal really is at anygiven moment, with whatever
decision I have, where do I needto be?
Do I need to bring some order tothings?
Do I need to be more creativeand think outside the box about
the possibilities?
Do I need to just initiate somethings or do I just need to take
(04:18):
care of some things and nurturethings?
So, with that said, that's kindof how I frame individuals and
couples counseling.
For me, in the beginning, itseemed to work more effectively
with couples because they werestruggling with those roles.
And for example, I'd havesomeone, again, back to what I
alluded to earlier, whereas thethe uh the wife in this
(04:41):
relationship typicallystruggling because they want the
man to the man to be moremasculine or take charge or to
lead more.
And that's not a natural energyfor them.
So I would explain the dynamicand say, this is kind of where
you're at.
And so it would diffuse the ideathat it was kind of some kind of
a personal attack to each eachof the others as far as how they
(05:01):
lived their lives, but it wasjust a natural expression of
energy for uh for thatindividual.
And that really seemed to reducethe anxiety that we have a bad
marriage or or uh we're a mess.
So that explanation just reallyhelped a lot in people taking a
deep breath and realizing, okay,there's some hope here that we
can we can see this relationshipdifferently.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
Aaron Ross Powell That's great.
Let me ask you to go a stepfurther with the distinctions
between those four personalitystyles you referred to four
quadrants.
But it's probably appropriate todescribe them as four
personality styles.
But what I hear you saying, andand correct me if I'm wrong,
that we tend to migrate to aparticular style, yet we have
(05:49):
access within us to all of thosedifferent energies.
And as we move toward health, welearn how to access those
different approaches when thesituation calls for it.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
We usually have we usually haveone natural bias that comes easy
to us for whatever reason.
And I think as you grow andunderstand, and even the tension
of relationships will bring thatout.
Probably the old school adagewould be that you you live out
the feminine, I live out themasculine, very role-defined.
Perhaps relationships back inthe 50s and 60s were more
(06:26):
prominent of that.
And as we as we've grown inunderstanding ourselves, we've
realized that no, we really canaccess all of those inside of
ourselves if we're if we have anincreased understanding of
ourselves, if we really seethat, okay, I'm I'm looking to
this person to kind of make mylife better or save my life, and
(06:47):
we realize they can't, and thenwe have to access some different
energies.
For example, if you want yourspouse to be more caring or more
giving or whatever, and theyjust can't access that, well,
then can I do that for myself?
Can I take care of myself?
But again, it's played out alittle differently when I'm
working with an individual orwith a couple.
(07:09):
Because the couple dynamic kindof affects what that looks like
on some level, but ultimately itcomes back to the individual
expression of that.
How do I do that inside myself?
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
Aaron Powell Which will, in a later episode, take
us down the direction ofprojection and how we impose
that inner need or desire ontoother people.
SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Absolutely.
And that's what inhibits theinternalization of this formula
in that sense.
Because I keep thinking, well,if you do if you would just do
do that, you know, we'd be okay.
In couples therapy, a lot of thetimes, they point fingers at
each other.
If you were just this way, we'dbe fine.
And that's that's never true.
(07:52):
And that's where the beginningprocess of trying to pull that
up pull that back and think backto your point about that's the
beginning of projection oridentifying it's a projection.
And what can I can I do thatmyself?
And you still want to obviouslyyou want to be interdependent.
You don't want to just beislands living together because
we're silos now and we don'tneed each other.
(08:12):
It's just working, workingthrough that with a better
understanding and explanation ofit.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Aaron Ross Powell In describing that acronym, Stir,
you took two in each category,one that is more of a masculine
ex not not one, but two that aremore masculine in their
expression, that being thestabilizer and the initiator.
Right.
And then there are two that aremore feminine in their
(08:38):
expression, the responder andthe transformer.
So could you help us tounderstand the dimension that
separates the two that arewithin each category?
So start off with the stabilizerversus the initiator.
Both of those tend to bemasculine in the way they get
expressed, but there is adifference between dynamic and
(09:04):
static or yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
That's a great way of looking at it.
That's exactly what happens.
The initiator is more dynamic,and the stabilizer is more
static.
And by that I mean basically adynamic individual keeps moving
forward.
They keep looking at newopportunities.
The static brings order to whatis.
So if there's a kind of achaotic organization, they'll
bring in someone that really hasa good handle on bringing
(09:29):
structure to things, which iskind of basically the what the
stabilizer does.
It stabilizes the system.
They err on the side of beingmaybe too static, but the
natural partner of that is theinitiator in the masculine
expression.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
So do the same thing for the feminine expressions,
the transformer and theresponder, both of those being
feminine expressions, which oneis the dynamic one and why?
And which one is the more staticenergy?
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
The dynamic one is a great one.
It's the transformer, in thesense that they're always having
fun, they're always thinkingoutside the box, they're very
creative, they're great at aparty, they just bring a
different life to them.
And they again, they don'tnecessarily think of how they're
affecting others.
They're just having a good time.
(10:23):
The responder is more static.
The responder in a different wayanticipates needs but brings
order to things as well.
So that's why it they allinterplay in some ways, but the
responder, the classic look ofthe responder is basically
anticipate needs.
So they're oftentimes matched upnaturally with the transformer
(10:45):
because the I mean uh with theuh stabilizer.
I misspoke there, but thestabilizer, because they're so
spontaneous and fun that theyneed someone to kind of bring
order to their lives.
So that oftentimes you'll findthat in a relationship, that
that's a natural attraction,just like the initiator and the
(11:05):
responder is a naturalattraction in some ways.
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
It seems to me that there can not only be a dominant
personality style, but there canbe a dominant way of expression
so that I am far more able toaccess the static side of life.
I like organization.
I can do that in a nurturingfashion, or I can do that in a
(11:32):
spreadsheet fashion.
I can do it as a stabilizer, orI can do it as a responder.
And it's the dynamic side oflife that feels a little
frightening or chaotic, and Iresist it whether it's
transformer or initiator.
And the flip side of that iswhat I was just asking about a
(11:54):
few moments ago, and that is Ican be so dominated by this
forward thinking, this movementconstantly, that I have a
natural tendency to be atransformer or an initiator, but
I also appreciate anyone who'sgetting us to move forward and
find myself attracted to thatover and over again.
(12:15):
And then I would say that Icould also simply be dominated
by a masculine expression, thatI am I am avoidant of relational
connectedness or concerns.
And I always want to default tothe logic side of things.
And so it's this masculine sideof doing things, solving
(12:39):
problems, moving forward.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
Absolutely, yes.
The masculine is basically asyou described, it wants to get
things done.
They minimize the importance ofthe relationship.
Naturally.
And if they aren't balanced, ifthey don't balance the feminine
side, you can see how that wouldaffect a relationship.
They would come across as nothaving empathy, not really
caring about the family orwhatever.
(13:03):
And the feminine would speak upand say, What are you doing?
Why are you working so much?
Well, that's that's my role.
So that's why we've, in thepast, stereotypically looked at
the masculine energy goes outand provides and protects.
The feminine energy stays homeand protects and provides
differently.
They create a nest.
The classic traditional way oflooking at the masculine and
feminine, the feminine stayshome and nests and makes the
(13:26):
family comfortable and takescare of everything.
The masculine goes out and killsthe, you know, kills the animal,
brings them home, and all that.
Well, in my mind, that's thatthat served us well.
But now I think we're movinginto a different place where
really each individual has thoseenergies.
And what does it look like toreally express those within?
(13:47):
Not not to discount the ideathat obviously you still want to
be cooperative and work inrelationships, but to carry the
load of the feminine at homesometimes, and uh for the
feminine to carry the load ofthe masculine.
That happened, you know, back inthe 70s when women started to go
back to work.
I think it really shiftedthings.
And now most places have doubleincomes.
(14:08):
Well, we're trying to we'restarting to appreciate each of
the expressions.
For example, when a when a Ithink a woman was feeling
underappreciated at home, to usethe stereotypical frame, they
were feeling underappreciated,so they would go back to work,
whether they needed to forfinancial reasons or because
they the kids were gone and theydidn't have a a a clear focus of
(14:32):
things.
Well, why do they do that?
Well, they may have been feelingunappreciated by the masculine
who was out working andminimizing the what the feminine
was doing at home.
So then the feminine jumped intothe masculine mode to go to work
to get appreciated.
So then the masculine had tostay home and take h take care
of the kids or help with thekids.
(14:53):
And that that again gave them anappreciation of the feminine and
what the feminine did.
So I see that as the interplayof what's what's happened the
last 30 or 40 years.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
Thank you.
I'm gonna ask you to dosomething for me.
I'm gonna use the STIR acronym,and it is these personality
styles, we're gonna be referringto them throughout this season
of conversation.
Uh so I would like at thebeginning of all of this, just
to give a couple handles.
You did it well, but I'm justgonna go one by one through the
(15:28):
STIR acronym.
And when you mentionedTransformer, you said, oh,
that's it.
It's a great one because youidentified some of the positive
characteristics.
I was a little defensive becausewhen you referenced the
stabilizer, which probably iswhere I lean into, you named all
of our negative characteristics.
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
So I'm not sure what that prejudice is about.
Well, I think I think you have abias of interpreting as
negative.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
But I would actually like you to do that for all
four.
SPEAKER_00 (15:58):
So what I'm a transformer, so of course I'm
gonna think me in a good light.
I mean, of course.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
Yep.
So I would like you to say whenit's functioning well, this is
where you see it come to life.
And either in its absence or inits toxic form, what might it
look like?
Okay?
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Let's start with a stabilizer,and you can repeat the toxic
stuff that you've already said.
But start off with in its bestform, what's the stabilizer
(16:29):
doing?
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Oh man, it's it's the one that I probably over my
lifetime have struggled with themost because it tries to
contain, in my opinion, iscontain the stabilizer or the
dreamer.
So the stabilizer is So let'sstart with the toxic stuff then.
SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
Thanks, Jim.
SPEAKER_00 (16:45):
The stabilizer is absolutely essential of life.
It it brings order.
It it is such a valuable energy.
It really is.
And I I know I'm smiling becauseuh, as I'm saying it, it it
feels restrictive, but it reallyisn't.
And that's why a transformer, anatural transformer that begins
(17:08):
to appreciate the stabilizer,it's such a journey because they
they just resist it naturally somuch of the time because they
feel like it's restrictive.
When really it is such animportant dynamic.
I mean, you think about itnaturally, it's the first four
or five years of life for achild that a mother's energy
(17:30):
usually brings that stabilizingenergy because it has to.
They have to organize thatchild.
And it's so important.
Without that structure, thatbeginning four or five years of
structure, of course, the childis is a much different dynamic
in that sense to bring order tothings.
So yeah, it's it's absolutelyessential.
It's life-giving, it's alsomisunderstood most of the time.
(17:52):
And then from that point.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
And it's when it is not in balance, it does as
you've already described, itbecomes very judgmental, it's
very restrictive, and it setsboundaries that it's always
corrective.
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Yeah, the classic thing is always corrective, you
set it wrong.
And again, the transformerpersonality is so is so
impulsive and spontaneous, youcan see where the natural
attraction is.
But at the same time, it's likethe transformer brings fun to
the stabilizer, stabilizerbrings order to the transformer.
It's a really nice match, butyou have to respect the
(18:27):
differences.
And that's that's sometimes thechallenge.
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Since T Transformer is the second one in the
acronym, you've mentioned somereal positive characteristics of
the Transformer.
When the Transformer is actingin a dysfunctional way, what are
some of the things that takeplace?
SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
Aaron Powell Becomes way too excessive.
They push the limits, they pushboundaries, they're risk takers,
and the negative, real negativeside of that is oftentimes they
be they become embroiled withaddictions.
Uh because they're they're sothey're so full of energy and
spontaneous kind of dynamicsthat that they uh the pushing
(19:04):
the limits, whether it'sgambling or drugs or alcohol, uh
they can really get caught up inthat.
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
Thank you.
Let's move to the initiator,which is a dynamic masculine
energy.
When it's functioning well, howdoes it show up?
What where do you see it in yourown life or in someone else?
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
They're uh oftentimes they're just natural
leaders.
They they see what needs tohappen and they they're in a
crisis situation, they're theones that will jump in and
they'll just organize things,just how they think.
That's a natural, natural uhagain, a natural energy
expression.
They initiate to put it to Imean, how do you expand on that?
(19:46):
If they see a problem, they jumpin right away to how can we fix
this?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
And when it is out of balance, what does it look
like?
SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
They're dictatorial, but in a different sense than
the stabilizer, because thestabilizer becomes dictatorial
and judgmental.
But the initiator becomes Imean, the extreme expression
would be more like a cultleader, that they really
dominate personality types andthey don't they don't listen to
anybody, they don't payattention, they just keep moving
(20:20):
forward with their plan and thuh they can get people to follow
them, but usually it's it's morecultish in that sense.
I mean, that's really theextreme.
The the negative side of thattypically is they don't listen
to feedback at all.
They would just they would justmake a plan, implement it, not
listen to much m many negativesabout it, they would just keep
(20:42):
doing it.
And didn't they wouldn't reallycare how it affects the the
organization or the family.
It's kind of like the initiatorwould say, we're going for the
family would be like, we'regoing on this vacation.
And it wouldn't there wouldn'tbe any discussion about it,
there wouldn't be any feed ffeedback.
We would just simply go do that.
That's the vacation we're doingbecause they wanted to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
Gotcha.
And then the responder, you'vealready mentioned some of the
wonderful characteristics.
They are attentive to the needsof others and know how to do
that well.
When that particular expressionis not healthy, how does it show
up?
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Aaron Ross Powell They're enablers.
They they don't have goodboundaries, they overfunction,
they become smothering in someways that they anticipate so
many needs that it's restrictiveof of individuals.
But it's all it's allwell-intended from their
perspective, but they become socaught up in meeting everybody's
(21:40):
needs that it can feel like it'sit's it's oppressive or
smothering.
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Aaron Ross Powell I know this is probably a tangent
for another episode, but when aresponder who is so attentive to
other people's needs eventuallyfinds that less than fulfilling
and they become resentful, isresentful a consequence of a
movement toward balance becausethey see it's not working, or is
(22:06):
it a natural consequence ofbeing a nurturer that eventually
you don't get back what you'vebeen given away?
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
That's a really good question.
Uh it's a little bit of both.
I think for the most part, whena responder, for me, for in my
work, a lady a lady might comein in her late 40s, early 50s,
and they're exhausted,depressed, and can't figure out
why.
And I ask a few questions, andit it only takes a little little
(22:35):
time to discover that they'veoverfunctioned, they've given
everything they can, the theirhusband typically works all the
time, the kids are takingadvantage of her, nobody's
respecting, nobody's helping outat home.
And I'll simply say, so itsounds like you overfunctioned
at home.
And almost immediately they'llidentify, although I may ask the
(22:55):
question, what does that mean?
And I'll describe it, that youtook care of everybody.
You anticipated everybody'sneeds, and you didn't get any of
your needs met.
And they almost always resistinitially and say, Well, that's
not what I did it.
And I go, I understand that onthe surface, but you're you're
getting really bitter and angryabout it.
So obviously there must havebeen something you were
expecting back.
And it takes them a while forthem to acknowledge that,
(23:16):
because that seems selfish.
But once they do, they realize,okay, I gave too much.
And so then unconsciously, in awhole different dynamic,
sometimes they'll they'll feelthat first and they'll go to
their husbands and say, I reallywant to go back to work.
And the husbands will be reallysupportive of that until they
actually do it.
(23:37):
Because then the husband itshakes them up because now that
they're not home taking care ofeverything.
But that's usually theunconscious way to try to
address the fact that I'm notgetting some needs met, so I
want to go back to school or Iwant to do something, I want to
go back to work.
But if they if they come to meand they're just depressed,
typically you go through theprocess saying you you've
overfunctioned and you've you'vegiven away your best.
(24:00):
And now can you even see thepossibility of giving to
yourself, which is theinternalization of what we're
talking about?
How do I use the responder totake care of me when I've used
it to take care of everybodyelse?
It's great.
SPEAKER_01 (24:12):
And let me make a bridge as kind of a last summary
piece here.
You gave some great examples,and so often the best examples,
because we can see them livedout, are in relationship.
So when a style comes intoconflict, so the very thing that
was attractive in ourrelationship at the beginning
(24:34):
becomes problematic years intothe relationship.
The very thing that attracts youdrives you nuts.
Absolutely.
And that's in part because we'veexternalized everything.
And part of this season thatwe're doing is to move that
conversation inward and say, howdo I examine my own journey so
that I might be in a healthierplace?
(24:56):
So kind of wetting our appetitefor where we're going in the
future here, if if I'm a let mesee you use the example of the
nurturer, and often attracted toan initiator.
So if I'm a responder, anurturer, and you're telling me
that I need to pay attention tothe initiator side of my life.
(25:22):
I need to I need to take chargeof some things that uh feels
like an absolutely foreignlanguage.
And where do I begin that firststep of trying to see myself as
having within me the access tothat kind of energy?
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Well, with the responder, it's pretty easy
because you basically point outhow they initiated every
possible thing for theirchildren.
And they go, Oh yeah, I mean,didn't you keep track of their
homework?
Didn't you keep track of all andthey almost go, Oh, well, yeah,
I did.
That's the initiator.
So you gave away your initiatingenergy to others as opposed to
yourself.
(26:04):
And that's that makes sense.
But again, to your point, it'sstill that's a nice concept.
But to actually try to do it, itfeels selfish.
So you have to get through theirbias as to as far as how they
see that.
And so if they see it beingselfish, I have to reframe it
and say, well, it was it was itwas pretty selfish to initiate
for others.
Because that's where yourwell-being was tied up in.
So you have to kind of do thatkind of flip as far as the
(26:26):
purpose it was serving them eventhen.
Because again, that's w we'reusing our natural expression
typically in a selfish waybecause it's how we function.
But we think we're giving itaway, especially the responder.
But yeah, that's that's a greatexample.
It's easy to it's pretty easy atsome point to get them to
identify the differentexpressions in their lives.
But again, it may be expressedin a moment when they have to,
(26:50):
so it doesn't feel like they cannaturally do it.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Yeah, to make to make a a conscious choice.
SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
Right.
Absolutely.
They have to wait till it getsso stressful that they do it, as
opposed to realizing, oh man,see, so I could really I could
really do that right now andwouldn't have to wait till it
gets really very upsettingbefore I do it or
trauma-traumatic.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
I think one of the ways by which we begin to think
inwardly is to do what we aretrying to do in this series.
We're going to start lookingback in order to move forward,
looking at our family of origin,what it was like when we were a
kid, how our families handledemotion.
And when we examine thosethings, we see a little bit of
(27:34):
maybe why we developed the waywe developed it and that it was
part of our survival.
It worked for us.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Aaron Powell Yes.
Yep.
And again, we we develop thosetypically you develop those uh
ways to cope really early on.
So we don't even know we'redoing them.
So by five or six or seven, youfigured out how to function.
That can serve you well untilobviously the classic thing,
which is until it doesn't.
So that's usually midlife.
SPEAKER_01 (28:03):
So that's usually when people seek out coaching or
therapy.
Yep.
That's so true.
Or or dreams break through intoconsciousness and startle you
away.
SPEAKER_00 (28:13):
Absolutely true.
That's absolutely true.
Yeah, I'm looking forward tothat series with you as well.
SPEAKER_01 (28:18):
Aaron Powell Wonderful.
Uh we hope all of you will joinus in this journey and we are
looking forward to where thistakes us.
Thanks, Jim.
Good to be with you.
Great, good to be with you.
Well, that's it for this episodeof Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
(28:42):
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to share it
with someone who mightappreciate it as well.
And if you are interested inworking with either of the co
hosts, you can do so at theirrespective websites, Dr.
Shally at AFCcounselors.com orDr.
Kelly at inyourdreams.coach.
Thanks for being here.
And until next time, keepgrowing.
(29:04):
Stay curious and take good careof yourself.
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