November 26, 2025 • 34 mins
We unpack the Responder style—how nurturing brings safety and connection, and how over-functioning turns love into control. You’ll hear the difference between static care that over-plans every risk and dynamic care that adapts in the moment. We talk through the classic attraction dance: why unintegrated Responders often choose highly driven, aggressive partners, how dependency erodes respect, and where emotional or even physical abuse can take root. Instead of pathologizing care or ambition, we focus on integration—reclaiming voice, boundaries, and presence so giving stays generous rather than controlling.
• responder as nurture, safety and acceptance
• when responsibility crowds out spontaneity and joy
• static versus dynamic expressions of personality
• overfunctioning care as smothering and control
• underfunctioning care as neglect and abandonment
• attraction to aggressive partners and abuse risk
• reframing self-care beyond performance and goals
• mistaken beliefs, midlife reevaluation and guilt
• naming narcissistic motives hidden in giving
• core responder traits and common pitfalls
• why teams need the responder’s present-moment voice
• simple steps to expand healthy self-care
If responsibility has swallowed your spontaneity, or if your caring has become a cage, this conversation will help you find the middle path—where safety, joy, and presence can coexist.
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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I am your co-host, D.
Kelly.
With me is Jim Shaley, andtogether we love just talking
about issues that have to dowith what we've given a portion
of our lives to.
Therapy, coaching, and dreams.
So thanks for being part of it.
Jim, glad you're here.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
Thank you, Dr.
Kelly.
Is it uh it's okay if I callyou, Dr.
Kelly?
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
Absolutely okay.
Yeah, good.
We have been taking a deep diveinto different aspects,
personality expressions in thelast few weeks.
We're gonna dig a little bitdeeper into one we have
referenced over and over againand given a lot of clues as to
the responder side ofpersonality.
(00:58):
We've talked about how wonderfulit is to be around a healthy
responder because of theiranticipation of needs.
But we're gonna dig a little bitdeeper and look at when there's
too much, when there's toolittle, what it how it comes
across when people express inthis way.
And I'd love, if I could, tokind of introduce it as a bridge
(01:21):
from last week.
I have a client who was sharinga dream with me, and he
described it in this stream.
A friend was there, and thatfriend appeared at the beginning
of the stream where he wastrying to take a trip and was in
a vehicle and doing all kinds ofthings to get ready.
(01:42):
And then the vehicle was kind ofbeing consumed by the ground
that was around him.
Gave me a big description onthat.
At one point in time, I said, SoI'm just curious, this person
that you mentioned, Lena in thedream, who is she?
I've never heard you mention herbefore.
And his response was, Well,she's uh she's just a friend
(02:05):
from a long time ago, afun-loving, frivolous person.
I said, Well, she's at thebeginning of the dream and she
dis disappears.
If she's a part of who you are,what part of you might that be?
And he said, I I don't know.
And I said, Well, you are in amidst of season of life where
(02:28):
you are consumed with all kindsof responsibilities.
And he's very static-oriented.
Good expressions of bothmasculine and feminine as life,
but very static oriented.
And I said, Your responsibilityis consuming all of who you are
as you try and manage everythingthat's taken place.
So let's come back to Lenaagain, who appears at the
(02:50):
beginning and this kind ofdisappears.
And that frivolous, fun-loving,spontaneous part of you that's
completely absent now and notfinding any expression is it
didn't even wonder that you'refeeling anxiety, feeling
overwhelmed, feeling all ofthose things.
And it was this moment for himof reflection and saying, Yeah,
(03:16):
I've got no time for any ofthat.
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
And I said, okay, so maybe that's where we need to
begin exploring what it means tobe healthy and balanced, because
all of the responsibility in theworld is, you know, you do that
well, but it's certainly notgoing to bring any health to
your life.
And the pathway here is going tolead to some real dysfunctions
if you're not careful.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Is that is that his natural energy?
The be the responsibility sideor not?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it it has been his methodof success.
And so it brings rewards.
But right now it's overwhelming,and there's just no space for
the spontaneity.
So, anyway, last week we weretalking about tapping into the
spontaneity side.
Now we're looking at theresponder side and how it has
some wonderful traits, but alsosome real problematic issues if
(04:07):
it's overfunctioning orunderfunctioning.
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Absolutely.
So I didn't know if I I missed Imissed the part.
Is Lena an actual person in hislife?
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Lena's a person out of his past.
Oh, like like early college,something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
Oh, okay.
So he has he doesn't have aperson at present that that has
the responder's types.
No.
No.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
So did did you present it to youpresent that side to him as far
as what he needs to work on ornot?
SPEAKER_00 (04:41):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Okay.
How do you respond?
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
The reaction to that was I got no time for it.
Is that what he said?
But the combination of, oh, Ilong for that, but I don't have
time.
Uh it is, I have so much to toget done, I can't.
SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
That's the classic thing because we talked about a
little bit, we alluded to lastweek, the initiator, which
typically is responsible andgets things done like his
natural energy being reallyresponsible, even though it's
static, that's also masculine.
And they are almost alwaysattracted to the responder type
because they let them go beresponsible and build things.
(05:23):
And then they have somebody athome typically that nurtures and
takes care and protects and doesall those things that build a
nest for someone.
He doesn't have that in his lifeat this point?
No.
No.
Okay.
So so the challenge would beokay, we externalize it, we
marry that, or we're in arelationship with that rather
than integrating it, like we'vetalked about over the weeks.
(05:44):
And so for him, that's got to beinteresting for him to even
visualize seeing the value andtaking the time to even see what
it would look like to nurturehim, to accept him, to not judge
him, to do something that bringslife to him.
I mean, does he even have anyconcept for that?
But that would be the that's howchallenging this is to figure
(06:07):
out, okay, I don't have time forthat.
Well, wait a minute.
Well, so then what do people do?
Sometimes they'll they'll go tomassage, they'll get massages,
they'll go to the health club,they'll do things that have that
theme to it of self-care, but intheir minds it'd be more
practical or more goal-driven,because I go to the health club
(06:27):
to work out.
They don't see that as probablynurturing.
So does he work out at all?
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Good question.
I don't know that we've gotteninto that.
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Okay.
It's interesting to me.
Tell me if you think I'm wrongon this, that very responsible
people can fall on the oftenfall on the stabilizer side
where there's an organizational,yeah, that kind of static
(06:53):
masculine.
But I also view sometimes thenurturer, the responder, the
caregiver as expressing adifferent kind of
responsibility.
They take absoluteresponsibility for the care of
the home, the care of theenvironment sometimes, the care
and nurturing of whatever it isthat has captured their
(07:13):
attention and imagination.
And it's that sense ofresponsibility when over a long
period of time they don't getanything back that sometimes the
resentment sets in or sometimesdepression starts to overwhelm
them.
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
Especially especially if they can't
identify that if they can't uhown the fact that they were
looking for something back.
If they can't see that part ofit, then they'll get more
depressed than frustrated orresentful.
If they get in touch with theidea that they were supposed to
get something back, then theycan get resentful.
And they have to work throughthat and then have to own the
(07:49):
part that it was partly themthat set it up that way.
The other thing that we theother thing that there's lots of
uh lots of different directionsto go with with this whole
framework, because there's alsoa negative, there's a there's a
negative and a positiveapproach, or there's a static
and a dynamic approach to eachone of these.
So a responder can be verystatic and very dynamic.
(08:11):
A transformer can be very staticand very dynamic.
A static transformer would be,let's say, a drug-addicted
person, where they're so caughtup in uh masking that energy
that they'll stay stuck, butthey'll also be doing excessive
behaviors in some ways, but theyand they won't be able to get
out of it.
So I think that's something wecan talk about at some point.
(08:33):
But that's that'd be like theresponder to your point.
They can be so good at it thatthey plan for every situation
and you almost feel stifled byit.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Great bridge, that notion of feeling stifled.
A responder this static feminineside that all of us have within
us at some level, when that isover-functioning, when it is not
only your style of expressionthat dominates, but that it
(09:06):
overoperates.
It can be an incrediblysmothering styling.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I saw one time insomething you had written the
you use the language, which Iknow is a little bit sexist
because it can be male orfemale, but that the
overfunctioning castrates theother.
(09:27):
This sense in which theresponder becomes so consumed
with safety and taking care ofthings that you keep your
children, you keep yoursignificant other from doing
anything.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
And that's and that's why the the feminine side
of that is so interestingbecause when we talk about the
stabilizer, they do somewhat ofthat.
They say do somewhat smothering,but they do it and they will
have a logical reason for it.
The responder will smother youand and and couch it with, I
love you so much.
(10:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
And both will feel like it's it's it's stifling and
smothering.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
So the masculine side will say, No, these are the
rules.
Right.
And the the responder side, thefeminine side, will say, I love
you, you can't do that.
It's not safe.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
So what about theunderfunctioning of that
responder side when they arewhen there's no voice of that in
(10:33):
your life?
It's absent.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
Well, you're I think that's what you're experiencing
in the gentleman you referredto.
I mean, that's where he's so sooverly responsible that he
hasn't doesn't have time to takecare of himself.
And then you you you can s youcan quickly move into kind of a
kind of a victim mode or youknow, feeling sorry for yourself
mode where, you know, I just gotI don't have time for that.
And so they minimize thatself-care.
(10:57):
Because on some level, theybought into the idea that
success or goal setting or beingresponsible is indeed
life-giving to them.
When really all they've done islean in, from my perspective,
they just leaned into theirnatural style of being, because
to develop the other side seemstoo stressful.
I mean, how many times have yourun into people that that know
their pattern and they've workedon it and they've not been able
(11:19):
to conquer it, and they justkind of go, you know, just kind
of who I am.
I'm tired of fighting.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's also this side where ifthere's no responder or there's
too little of it, not only willyou abandon your own work, but
sometimes you'll abandon others.
You'll you'll not find theenergy to care for and nurture a
(11:46):
relationship or nurture and carefor a project.
You just abandon it because youdon't have any of that caring
side, trying to keep somethingalive and keep it going.
SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
That's why that's why it's so important on the on
the minutest level, if you can,is find some way in which
they're expressing this energythat they're unaware of.
Because then as soon as youidentify that they do it
somewhere in their life, thathelps them realize, okay, can
can I expand that?
(12:18):
What would it look like toexpand that?
So for example, that's why I usethe example of, excuse me, going
to the health club, to see thatas self-care and not as a thing
to keep me from dying or it'sit's it's a goal I have to set,
I have to set, I have to liftthis much this many weights, or
whatever that is, but to let getthem to see that that that
(12:39):
really is the nurturing aspectthat they want to integrate and
what's it looked like to expandit.
Because again, if you if you askenough questions, you will
almost always see that eachperson expresses each of these
quadrants that we're talkingabout in some form.
Yes, there is a bias, there isone that's more natural, but
(12:59):
always there's uh somethingwe're doing that is expressing
that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
I think I'm picking up on something you've said in
the past, but I'd love for youto maybe give a little more
explanation to it if possible,that someone who is this way but
is very unaware of their owntendencies, that this style of
(13:25):
personality, the responder, willoften be drawn toward abuse or
abusive behavior.
Yeah.
Can you maybe I don't notnecessarily give an example, but
tell us why.
What is it that makes thatattraction happen?
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
Uh obviously initially initially they would
never identify that attraction.
But when you think about thenegative aspects of both of
those, so the responder sets itup so that I'm gonna make your
life so easy at home.
Let's just use the stereotype ofthe traditional setup where the
(14:04):
where the feminine will stayhome and take care of the
family, the masculine will goout and make the living.
It could be either I'll be manor woman.
But in this situation, let'sjust use the man-woman scenario.
So the woman's job and that thethe feminine, the responder's
job in that moment is to makethis man's life so comfortable
(14:25):
that he can pursue his kingdom.
So he does it.
And for the first ten years, heis he is making money.
They've bought a bigger house,he's bought his wife an
incredible SUV, an escalade withbecause it's just it's just
working.
Kids are, you know, grade schoolage, and then all of a sudden
(14:49):
the the man the man's workingall the time, all the time.
And now the responder starts tonotice they're irritable and
they're more upset than theyused to be.
And they start saying, You workall the time, you're never home.
So the responder starts gettingin touch with the negative side
of that, which is the negativestabilizer, which is you're
(15:12):
working too much.
And so now the husband staysstays out longer, doesn't come
home as often.
They start arguing more.
The next thing you know, he'sfeeling more and more
accountable or smothered.
If he has any aggressive traitsin him, which he does, because
he's if let's say he's uh he'sgot a company and he runs the
company, and all of a suddenhe's really nice at at work,
(15:34):
couple people love him at work,he comes home and the wife's
saying, You're always at work,you're never home.
I'm tired of doing this bymyself, I can't do it anymore.
Yeah, if he has any aggressiveside that he could bring that
that could the abuse could comeout, first of all, in arguing,
and then all of a sudden they'dbe screaming at each other.
So that's the that's the moregeneric setup.
(15:57):
The other one that I think youask about is that there could be
an attraction to someone who whois a who has a tendency to be
abusive because the responder isway too giving.
And so they're out of balance.
And they actually need to takecharge of their life, and if
they can't, they will beattracted to the strong,
(16:19):
aggressive, abusive masculine ofthe initiator and transformer.
And that's where I think themore extreme you are, the more
likely you are to be attractedto that type.
So if I'm if I'm cr anincredible, let's say, pushover
or a doormat, as the phrase usedto be, I will be attracted to an
aggressive, strong masculinethat oftentimes will resent the
(16:45):
the dependency of the responder,because that's the real negative
of the responder, is they becomeincredibly dependent.
And when the initiator feelsthat dependency, they lack
respect for it, and then theycan become abusive.
That's a long explanation, butthere's a lot in there.
But that first scenario is moreuh normal in some ways as far as
(17:09):
how it plays out, and and goinginto therapy, I have a case
right now where that's basicallywhat's happened.
They're catching it at a goodtime, I hope, but that's more
normal.
The the other one is moreextreme because, again, you're
way out of balance.
Just like just like the strawmasculine initiator will be
(17:30):
attracted to that swooning,dependent personality because in
the beginning they're worshipingthe man to use that stereotype.
And yeah, that almost alwaysbecomes or can become really
abusive.
SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
Well, uh the dynamic side, really, whether it's
transformer initiator, whetherit's masculine or feminine, that
dynamic side has anattractiveness that's magnetic.
And sometimes people havedeveloped a sensitivity that it
repels them because they've hadtoo many experiences with
(18:04):
somebody who's mistreated themthat had that dynamic energy,
but that comes with time.
There's this initial attractionto the energy that you want to
ride.
You you love the people thatsurround the moment or the
circumstances, the experiencesthat surround that kind of thing
and drawn into it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Yeah.
I mean, just think about it.
If you walk into a let's justuse the the the idea of the bar.
If you walk into a bar and anattractive woman walks up to you
and they swoon over you and theycan't wait to be around you,
they they suck up to you, theythey they worship you, they tend
to that narcissistic man, that'sa setup.
(18:45):
Because that unconsciousattraction, from my perspective,
if that woman is that dependent,that man is absolutely too
aggressive.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Yeah.
Great point.
unknown (18:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Okay, so here's it's shift focus just a little bit.
You have somebody who comes intothe office, and the perspective
of this individual is nurturingresponder personality style.
Okay.
But it is so obvious that itthis approach is
overfunctioning, doing so muchto the detriment of their own
(19:19):
journey.
And it comes out in theconversation.
And it seems obvious to you, butas is often the case, it's not
obvious to the client.
How do you begin to draw out ofan individual the ways in which
this overfunctioning is actuallyhindering their growth?
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Great question.
I would start with the positivesand say, what do you provide for
the family that has workedreally well in the past and try
to get them to identify theirenergy level and that it's
different now.
So they're they're moreexhausted.
They may they may not beinitiate as much stuff with the
(20:00):
kids as they used to, somehowwhere they start expressing how
it's affecting their life.
And then I always try tovalidate how important that
energy is.
But at some point in midlife,especially, and that's where I
use my framework of a midlifecrisis, I reframe it and say
it's a it's an it's anevaluation of do I want to keep
(20:22):
doing what I've been doing.
So that sets it out of theemotional component a little
bit, and I normalize that it'sjust a part of living.
And then they they they you canfeel their energy shift a little
bit, like this is normal.
And so you're just re-evaluatingif this is still working for
you.
Sometimes they push back andsay, well, that's my role.
(20:42):
And then I'll have to have thatconversation about, well, is
that a role that's satisfyinglike it used to be, which almost
always it isn't.
And so then if and most of thetime they've already started
doing something to get in touchwith another aspect.
They'll either be hanging outwith their girlfriends more, if
it's the woman, they'll be notgoing to as many school
(21:04):
functions with the kids.
Something will be happeningsubtly that they feel guilty
about.
And then I'll point out and say,well, that's an expression of
taking care of yourself.
And maybe you neglect it.
So you you couch it obviouslyvery, you know, like what's the
word I'm looking for?
You don't make a big deal.
You just make it kind of casual,like, well, you're already kind
(21:25):
of doing that because you're youseem to be exhausted, so you're
trying to get energy fromsomeplace.
And I said that's I'll saythat's what that is.
So what would it be like to domore of that?
Well, I would feel guilty aboutthat.
And then you have to attack theguilt and where that comes from.
And typically that's where youget into false guilt.
I said you're changing yourdynamic, so you feel guilty
(21:47):
about that, but that's not trueguilt.
That's false guilt because youwant you don't want people to
not like you and be frustratedwith you changing your roles.
Which again makes sense in theirheads.
And that's that's the beginningpoint.
When it makes sense, uh theystill feel helpless as to far as
to your point.
If it's a natural energy andthat's my role, how do I get
(22:10):
past feeling guilty?
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Yeah.
The one of the pieces that Ilove of what you just said is
when it's no longer working forthem.
I think that that is often thecase.
Certainly midlife issues willbring up.
But sometimes it happens toteenagers, sometimes it happens
to young adults in college,where what they have done to
(22:33):
survive no longer works, andthere's this sense of
dissatisfaction that I'm I'm notenjoying life like I used to.
I'm not liking myself like Iused to.
It's not working.
And one of the things that Isometimes use, if it seems
appropriate in a givensituation, is to say, well,
(22:54):
let's start with being gratefulto yourself for using a
technique that helped you tosurvive, but it's now no longer
useful.
So let's not berate that you,that part of you that did that.
It helped you get through life.
So let's start with a sense ofgratitude to that, but also an
(23:15):
acknowledgement that somethingneeds to shift because it's no
longer working well.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Yeah, the Adlerian, Alfred Adler, the Adlerian that
I was trained in way back in theday, basically calls those
mistaken beliefs.
So by age five or six or seven,we've formed how we're going to
function in the world.
And so you're right.
Oftentimes, even before we getto midlife, there'll be there'll
be times when we realize they nolonger work.
(23:42):
And then you have to say, do youstill need to do that?
Because their life has changedso much.
And so you have to change, and Ialways use the phrase, you have
to change the mistaken beliefinto a new mistaken belief.
Based upon the present.
And I think that's another wayfor them to get in touch with
the idea of, okay, because youcan almost always make a
(24:04):
connection back to the way theyhandle their emotions and the
family and as to why they had todo that.
And as soon as they make thatconnection, then you can empower
them to say, okay, now youreally can take charge of the
emotional expression that youknow you want to do present time
and become more conscious.
Which is still a nice concept.
(24:26):
It's still going to be very hardto do because in the beginning
they're they're kind of madeunconsciously as a child.
Whereas an adult or a teenageror whatever, you have to do it
more on purpose, which which canfeel energy draining as well.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
Yeah, it can feel overwhelming because of the
unknown.
I've not tried that stylebefore.
Absolutely.
Where's this going to take me?
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
Yeah, but again, that's where you point out when
you when you get them a goodsense of all of these
expressions and what they looklike, you can almost always find
a way in which they'reexpressing them.
SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Great point.
Yeah.
I also think it's valuable towarn somebody that as you take
steps toward change, be preparedthat a family system, a family
of origin, coworkers, they willreact in ways that will make you
(25:21):
uncomfortable because they'reused to you being a particular
way.
Absolutely.
Yeah, what's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
Something happened.
What's wrong with you?
You're different.
Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, yeah,I'm different.
You're weird.
So knock it off.
So yeah, you're right.
And that's again, that's anothergreat point is that what keeps
us from changing so much arepeople's expectations of who
we're supposed to continue tobe.
Yeah.
And then we feel guilty orwhatever, and then we don't
embrace it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
I would propose that the personality style that we
are looking at today, theresponder probably has the
greatest sensitivity to thepushback that comes from family,
family abortion.
Absolutely true.
They had this internal reactionof, oh no, I can't mess up this.
(26:09):
I need to take care of everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
Yeah.
Because the casual way toexpress the responder is their
pleasers.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
And so you're absolutely right.
It it's almost as if it takes alittle more hand holding to say,
no, stay with it, stay with it.
This is the right thing for yourhealth and goodness and
well-being, right?
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
The most tragic yet freeing thing, and this is going
to be controversial, that canhappen for a responder is to
fall madly in love with somebodythat's not their spouse.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Because they may not act on it,they may not do anything about
it, but they it it just brings awhole thing alive in them that
(26:50):
that finally gets them to seethat, oh my word, what have I
been doing with my life?
And that's and that's the thethe transformer in them,
basically.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
I mean about and being externalized and then
needing to realize, oh, that's apart of me that's inside that I
need to pay attention to.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
And that's another really hard conversation.
I had this this week.
When you suppress a desire yourwhole life, and then something
happens where it brings italive, and everybody in your
life is telling you you can't dothat, I told this person, I
said, it's hard pressed to notgo do that because you have
suppressed it.
I said people judge it, they cancondemn it, they can do all they
(27:29):
want.
But I'm telling you what, if youhave minimized a need in your
life that now at age 45 orwhatever, has you found a way to
express it or someone expressesit, it's hard pressed to resist
the attraction.
Good, bad, right, or wrong.
And it again, that's I takeeverything proactively as a way
(27:51):
to get to know ourselves and ifwe believe in the divine, to get
to know the divine better.
Any other way is is justnegative.
So if I screw my life up, it'sabout getting to know myself and
getting to know my creatorbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
So thank you, Jim.
One last piece, we touched baseon this in a previous episode,
but I just want to come back toit.
And that is that sometimesresponders fail to recognize and
are startled when confrontedwith it, that when they are
functioning in this way and itdominates all of who they are,
(28:28):
that there's a narcissistic sideto that.
This giving to others actuallyas a service to themselves to
feel important, to feel needed,to feel like they are integrated
into whatever it is that'shappening.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:41):
That's re Yeah, and that's really difficult for them
to acknowledge.
When I when I use the phrase,well, that's just your
narcissism, because typicallythey're married to a pretty
prototypical narcissist in someways.
They're very successful and andand things like that.
And when I use that phrase, theyreally resist it.
But after a while, they smileand they go, Oh, yeah, I can see
that.
(29:01):
Because you point out the factthat it's very self-absorbed.
You need people to like you.
Well, that's all about you.
So you can say it's it's for thebetter good of everybody, but
no, it's it's about your need.
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
One last thing in kind of bringing this particular
discussion to a close.
Any one of the other threepersonality styles, what are you
missing out on if you're notpaying attention to the
responder side of you?
If that's not a part that youhave nurtured or brought that
(29:35):
voice to the table of yourdecision making, you're gonna
miss out on a very importantvoice if that's always
externalized and given over tosomebody else.
So what are you looking for?
What are you missing out on?
SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
Real briefly, I mean, real uh succinctly, is uh
you're missing out on themoment.
Because again, the responder isvery good in the moment.
Appreciate the moment.
They appreciate the time youspend with family.
They appreciate that's notalways going to be that way.
So I would say, yeah, that youyou miss, uh f for lack of a
(30:10):
better way of expressing it,smelling the smelling the
flowers or the roses or whateverthat phrase is.
Smelling something.
Smelling.
Smelling something.
Good or bad, right or wrong,you're smelling something.
I think before we go, I thinkevery time we talk about
specific traits, we didn't dothat for the responder.
Because basically they theynurture, they shelter, they
(30:32):
accept, they protect, they theyaffirm, they take care of
things, they express confidence,security, optimism, uh, they
trust is a basic value theyhave, which can be taken
advantage of.
So you can see the whole thewhole theme really is the
relationship is most important.
They will try to make it ascomfortable as they can.
They will accept every dynamic.
(30:54):
In fact, I had a real quickthing this week where uh a
friend of mine called and saidthat they had had a conversation
with someone that revealed somethings about their life that
would challenge the beliefsystem of my friend.
And my friend was basicallysaying, I think I was too
accepting.
And their natural energy is toaccept.
(31:16):
I didn't know, I don't think Ichallenged enough of their
beliefs.
And I I I smiled and I justsaid, it'll be fine.
Because basically, that personis going to feel your acceptance
whether you challenge him ornot, because they came to you
for their your acceptancebecause they're in a place where
that's the most important thingto them.
(31:37):
I said, you have to trust Godwith their journey that they'll
be thoughtful enough about theprocess to challenge themselves.
So and this pr this friend ofmine's an incredible responder.
And so, but they were worriedthat that was too extreme.
So it's exactly to your point.
It's like, wait a minute.
Uh so I gave him permission.
I go, we don't give peoplepermission or not permission.
(32:00):
They take whatever they takefrom it.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:03):
Great point and great story.
I think the the initiator, oftenplowing ahead, doesn't give a
second thought to safety issues.
And I so many times I've been ina strategic planning thing
meeting, and great ideas aregoing up on the board, and I
need a voice in there that says,Yeah, yeah, but what about the
children that are not going to,whatever the case is, safety
(32:26):
issues here?
That in some ways, theTransformer has a very prophetic
voice, and like you said, missesthe moment right now to be
present in what's taking place.
So, yeah, this is a reallyimportant voice to bring to the
table.
I will say, in that story youtold just a few moments ago, my
(32:48):
favorite part is that you have afriend.
That's great.
You're making progress, Jim.
SPEAKER_01 (32:55):
Well, you know, we we take we're hyperbole, we we
make things up.
So of course you know I made upa friend, a friend made a friend
up.
Good lord.
And the other thing that I wantto point out is so when the
initiator takes off on afour-wheeler and doesn't really
think about the family he hasand that he could die doing some
(33:16):
of the things he does, yeah,that's uh that's not taking the
responder into account.
Okay.
Thank you for that poignantconfrontational moment.
And I'm so glad that persondoesn't have anybody along with
him when we're do when on thosetrips, because it would inhibit
some of the risk taking that weso casually do that we keep to
(33:39):
ourselves most of the time.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
So that's good.
I appreciate it, Jim.
Hey, as always, great to be withyou.
We're gonna come back thefollowing week and try and bring
some closure to these fourquadrants and see where it takes
us.
So as always.
Thanks, man.
Yep.
That's it for this episode ofTherapy, Coaching, and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
(34:02):
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I am your co-host, D.
Kelly.
With me is Jim Shaley, andtogether we love just talking
about issues that have to dowith what we've given a portion
of our lives to.
Therapy, coaching, and dreams.
So thanks for being part of it.
Jim, glad you're here.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
Thank you, Dr.
Kelly.
Is it uh it's okay if I callyou, Dr.
Kelly?
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
Absolutely okay.
Yeah, good.
We have been taking a deep diveinto different aspects,
personality expressions in thelast few weeks.
We're gonna dig a little bitdeeper into one we have
referenced over and over againand given a lot of clues as to
the responder side ofpersonality.
(00:58):
We've talked about how wonderfulit is to be around a healthy
responder because of theiranticipation of needs.
But we're gonna dig a little bitdeeper and look at when there's
too much, when there's toolittle, what it how it comes
across when people express inthis way.
And I'd love, if I could, tokind of introduce it as a bridge
(01:21):
from last week.
I have a client who was sharinga dream with me, and he
described it in this stream.
A friend was there, and thatfriend appeared at the beginning
of the stream where he wastrying to take a trip and was in
a vehicle and doing all kinds ofthings to get ready.
(01:42):
And then the vehicle was kind ofbeing consumed by the ground
that was around him.
Gave me a big description onthat.
At one point in time, I said, SoI'm just curious, this person
that you mentioned, Lena in thedream, who is she?
I've never heard you mention herbefore.
And his response was, Well,she's uh she's just a friend
(02:05):
from a long time ago, afun-loving, frivolous person.
I said, Well, she's at thebeginning of the dream and she
dis disappears.
If she's a part of who you are,what part of you might that be?
And he said, I I don't know.
And I said, Well, you are in amidst of season of life where
(02:28):
you are consumed with all kindsof responsibilities.
And he's very static-oriented.
Good expressions of bothmasculine and feminine as life,
but very static oriented.
And I said, Your responsibilityis consuming all of who you are
as you try and manage everythingthat's taken place.
So let's come back to Lenaagain, who appears at the
(02:50):
beginning and this kind ofdisappears.
And that frivolous, fun-loving,spontaneous part of you that's
completely absent now and notfinding any expression is it
didn't even wonder that you'refeeling anxiety, feeling
overwhelmed, feeling all ofthose things.
And it was this moment for himof reflection and saying, Yeah,
(03:16):
I've got no time for any ofthat.
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
And I said, okay, so maybe that's where we need to
begin exploring what it means tobe healthy and balanced, because
all of the responsibility in theworld is, you know, you do that
well, but it's certainly notgoing to bring any health to
your life.
And the pathway here is going tolead to some real dysfunctions
if you're not careful.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Is that is that his natural energy?
The be the responsibility sideor not?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it it has been his methodof success.
And so it brings rewards.
But right now it's overwhelming,and there's just no space for
the spontaneity.
So, anyway, last week we weretalking about tapping into the
spontaneity side.
Now we're looking at theresponder side and how it has
some wonderful traits, but alsosome real problematic issues if
(04:07):
it's overfunctioning orunderfunctioning.
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Absolutely.
So I didn't know if I I missed Imissed the part.
Is Lena an actual person in hislife?
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Lena's a person out of his past.
Oh, like like early college,something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
Oh, okay.
So he has he doesn't have aperson at present that that has
the responder's types.
No.
No.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
So did did you present it to youpresent that side to him as far
as what he needs to work on ornot?
SPEAKER_00 (04:41):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Okay.
How do you respond?
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
The reaction to that was I got no time for it.
Is that what he said?
But the combination of, oh, Ilong for that, but I don't have
time.
Uh it is, I have so much to toget done, I can't.
SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
That's the classic thing because we talked about a
little bit, we alluded to lastweek, the initiator, which
typically is responsible andgets things done like his
natural energy being reallyresponsible, even though it's
static, that's also masculine.
And they are almost alwaysattracted to the responder type
because they let them go beresponsible and build things.
(05:23):
And then they have somebody athome typically that nurtures and
takes care and protects and doesall those things that build a
nest for someone.
He doesn't have that in his lifeat this point?
No.
No.
Okay.
So so the challenge would beokay, we externalize it, we
marry that, or we're in arelationship with that rather
than integrating it, like we'vetalked about over the weeks.
(05:44):
And so for him, that's got to beinteresting for him to even
visualize seeing the value andtaking the time to even see what
it would look like to nurturehim, to accept him, to not judge
him, to do something that bringslife to him.
I mean, does he even have anyconcept for that?
But that would be the that's howchallenging this is to figure
(06:07):
out, okay, I don't have time forthat.
Well, wait a minute.
Well, so then what do people do?
Sometimes they'll they'll go tomassage, they'll get massages,
they'll go to the health club,they'll do things that have that
theme to it of self-care, but intheir minds it'd be more
practical or more goal-driven,because I go to the health club
(06:27):
to work out.
They don't see that as probablynurturing.
So does he work out at all?
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Good question.
I don't know that we've gotteninto that.
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Okay.
It's interesting to me.
Tell me if you think I'm wrongon this, that very responsible
people can fall on the oftenfall on the stabilizer side
where there's an organizational,yeah, that kind of static
(06:53):
masculine.
But I also view sometimes thenurturer, the responder, the
caregiver as expressing adifferent kind of
responsibility.
They take absoluteresponsibility for the care of
the home, the care of theenvironment sometimes, the care
and nurturing of whatever it isthat has captured their
(07:13):
attention and imagination.
And it's that sense ofresponsibility when over a long
period of time they don't getanything back that sometimes the
resentment sets in or sometimesdepression starts to overwhelm
them.
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
Especially especially if they can't
identify that if they can't uhown the fact that they were
looking for something back.
If they can't see that part ofit, then they'll get more
depressed than frustrated orresentful.
If they get in touch with theidea that they were supposed to
get something back, then theycan get resentful.
And they have to work throughthat and then have to own the
(07:49):
part that it was partly themthat set it up that way.
The other thing that we theother thing that there's lots of
uh lots of different directionsto go with with this whole
framework, because there's alsoa negative, there's a there's a
negative and a positiveapproach, or there's a static
and a dynamic approach to eachone of these.
So a responder can be verystatic and very dynamic.
(08:11):
A transformer can be very staticand very dynamic.
A static transformer would be,let's say, a drug-addicted
person, where they're so caughtup in uh masking that energy
that they'll stay stuck, butthey'll also be doing excessive
behaviors in some ways, but theyand they won't be able to get
out of it.
So I think that's something wecan talk about at some point.
(08:33):
But that's that'd be like theresponder to your point.
They can be so good at it thatthey plan for every situation
and you almost feel stifled byit.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Great bridge, that notion of feeling stifled.
A responder this static feminineside that all of us have within
us at some level, when that isover-functioning, when it is not
only your style of expressionthat dominates, but that it
(09:06):
overoperates.
It can be an incrediblysmothering styling.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I saw one time insomething you had written the
you use the language, which Iknow is a little bit sexist
because it can be male orfemale, but that the
overfunctioning castrates theother.
(09:27):
This sense in which theresponder becomes so consumed
with safety and taking care ofthings that you keep your
children, you keep yoursignificant other from doing
anything.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
And that's and that's why the the feminine side
of that is so interestingbecause when we talk about the
stabilizer, they do somewhat ofthat.
They say do somewhat smothering,but they do it and they will
have a logical reason for it.
The responder will smother youand and and couch it with, I
love you so much.
(10:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
And both will feel like it's it's it's stifling and
smothering.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
So the masculine side will say, No, these are the
rules.
Right.
And the the responder side, thefeminine side, will say, I love
you, you can't do that.
It's not safe.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
So what about theunderfunctioning of that
responder side when they arewhen there's no voice of that in
(10:33):
your life?
It's absent.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
Well, you're I think that's what you're experiencing
in the gentleman you referredto.
I mean, that's where he's so sooverly responsible that he
hasn't doesn't have time to takecare of himself.
And then you you you can s youcan quickly move into kind of a
kind of a victim mode or youknow, feeling sorry for yourself
mode where, you know, I just gotI don't have time for that.
And so they minimize thatself-care.
(10:57):
Because on some level, theybought into the idea that
success or goal setting or beingresponsible is indeed
life-giving to them.
When really all they've done islean in, from my perspective,
they just leaned into theirnatural style of being, because
to develop the other side seemstoo stressful.
I mean, how many times have yourun into people that that know
their pattern and they've workedon it and they've not been able
(11:19):
to conquer it, and they justkind of go, you know, just kind
of who I am.
I'm tired of fighting.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's also this side where ifthere's no responder or there's
too little of it, not only willyou abandon your own work, but
sometimes you'll abandon others.
You'll you'll not find theenergy to care for and nurture a
(11:46):
relationship or nurture and carefor a project.
You just abandon it because youdon't have any of that caring
side, trying to keep somethingalive and keep it going.
SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
That's why that's why it's so important on the on
the minutest level, if you can,is find some way in which
they're expressing this energythat they're unaware of.
Because then as soon as youidentify that they do it
somewhere in their life, thathelps them realize, okay, can
can I expand that?
(12:18):
What would it look like toexpand that?
So for example, that's why I usethe example of, excuse me, going
to the health club, to see thatas self-care and not as a thing
to keep me from dying or it'sit's it's a goal I have to set,
I have to set, I have to liftthis much this many weights, or
whatever that is, but to let getthem to see that that that
(12:39):
really is the nurturing aspectthat they want to integrate and
what's it looked like to expandit.
Because again, if you if you askenough questions, you will
almost always see that eachperson expresses each of these
quadrants that we're talkingabout in some form.
Yes, there is a bias, there isone that's more natural, but
(12:59):
always there's uh somethingwe're doing that is expressing
that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
I think I'm picking up on something you've said in
the past, but I'd love for youto maybe give a little more
explanation to it if possible,that someone who is this way but
is very unaware of their owntendencies, that this style of
(13:25):
personality, the responder, willoften be drawn toward abuse or
abusive behavior.
Yeah.
Can you maybe I don't notnecessarily give an example, but
tell us why.
What is it that makes thatattraction happen?
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
Uh obviously initially initially they would
never identify that attraction.
But when you think about thenegative aspects of both of
those, so the responder sets itup so that I'm gonna make your
life so easy at home.
Let's just use the stereotype ofthe traditional setup where the
(14:04):
where the feminine will stayhome and take care of the
family, the masculine will goout and make the living.
It could be either I'll be manor woman.
But in this situation, let'sjust use the man-woman scenario.
So the woman's job and that thethe feminine, the responder's
job in that moment is to makethis man's life so comfortable
(14:25):
that he can pursue his kingdom.
So he does it.
And for the first ten years, heis he is making money.
They've bought a bigger house,he's bought his wife an
incredible SUV, an escalade withbecause it's just it's just
working.
Kids are, you know, grade schoolage, and then all of a sudden
(14:49):
the the man the man's workingall the time, all the time.
And now the responder starts tonotice they're irritable and
they're more upset than theyused to be.
And they start saying, You workall the time, you're never home.
So the responder starts gettingin touch with the negative side
of that, which is the negativestabilizer, which is you're
(15:12):
working too much.
And so now the husband staysstays out longer, doesn't come
home as often.
They start arguing more.
The next thing you know, he'sfeeling more and more
accountable or smothered.
If he has any aggressive traitsin him, which he does, because
he's if let's say he's uh he'sgot a company and he runs the
company, and all of a suddenhe's really nice at at work,
(15:34):
couple people love him at work,he comes home and the wife's
saying, You're always at work,you're never home.
I'm tired of doing this bymyself, I can't do it anymore.
Yeah, if he has any aggressiveside that he could bring that
that could the abuse could comeout, first of all, in arguing,
and then all of a sudden they'dbe screaming at each other.
So that's the that's the moregeneric setup.
(15:57):
The other one that I think youask about is that there could be
an attraction to someone who whois a who has a tendency to be
abusive because the responder isway too giving.
And so they're out of balance.
And they actually need to takecharge of their life, and if
they can't, they will beattracted to the strong,
(16:19):
aggressive, abusive masculine ofthe initiator and transformer.
And that's where I think themore extreme you are, the more
likely you are to be attractedto that type.
So if I'm if I'm cr anincredible, let's say, pushover
or a doormat, as the phrase usedto be, I will be attracted to an
aggressive, strong masculinethat oftentimes will resent the
(16:45):
the dependency of the responder,because that's the real negative
of the responder, is they becomeincredibly dependent.
And when the initiator feelsthat dependency, they lack
respect for it, and then theycan become abusive.
That's a long explanation, butthere's a lot in there.
But that first scenario is moreuh normal in some ways as far as
(17:09):
how it plays out, and and goinginto therapy, I have a case
right now where that's basicallywhat's happened.
They're catching it at a goodtime, I hope, but that's more
normal.
The the other one is moreextreme because, again, you're
way out of balance.
Just like just like the strawmasculine initiator will be
(17:30):
attracted to that swooning,dependent personality because in
the beginning they're worshipingthe man to use that stereotype.
And yeah, that almost alwaysbecomes or can become really
abusive.
SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
Well, uh the dynamic side, really, whether it's
transformer initiator, whetherit's masculine or feminine, that
dynamic side has anattractiveness that's magnetic.
And sometimes people havedeveloped a sensitivity that it
repels them because they've hadtoo many experiences with
(18:04):
somebody who's mistreated themthat had that dynamic energy,
but that comes with time.
There's this initial attractionto the energy that you want to
ride.
You you love the people thatsurround the moment or the
circumstances, the experiencesthat surround that kind of thing
and drawn into it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Yeah.
I mean, just think about it.
If you walk into a let's justuse the the the idea of the bar.
If you walk into a bar and anattractive woman walks up to you
and they swoon over you and theycan't wait to be around you,
they they suck up to you, theythey they worship you, they tend
to that narcissistic man, that'sa setup.
(18:45):
Because that unconsciousattraction, from my perspective,
if that woman is that dependent,that man is absolutely too
aggressive.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Yeah.
Great point.
unknown (18:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Okay, so here's it's shift focus just a little bit.
You have somebody who comes intothe office, and the perspective
of this individual is nurturingresponder personality style.
Okay.
But it is so obvious that itthis approach is
overfunctioning, doing so muchto the detriment of their own
(19:19):
journey.
And it comes out in theconversation.
And it seems obvious to you, butas is often the case, it's not
obvious to the client.
How do you begin to draw out ofan individual the ways in which
this overfunctioning is actuallyhindering their growth?
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Great question.
I would start with the positivesand say, what do you provide for
the family that has workedreally well in the past and try
to get them to identify theirenergy level and that it's
different now.
So they're they're moreexhausted.
They may they may not beinitiate as much stuff with the
(20:00):
kids as they used to, somehowwhere they start expressing how
it's affecting their life.
And then I always try tovalidate how important that
energy is.
But at some point in midlife,especially, and that's where I
use my framework of a midlifecrisis, I reframe it and say
it's a it's an it's anevaluation of do I want to keep
(20:22):
doing what I've been doing.
So that sets it out of theemotional component a little
bit, and I normalize that it'sjust a part of living.
And then they they they you canfeel their energy shift a little
bit, like this is normal.
And so you're just re-evaluatingif this is still working for
you.
Sometimes they push back andsay, well, that's my role.
(20:42):
And then I'll have to have thatconversation about, well, is
that a role that's satisfyinglike it used to be, which almost
always it isn't.
And so then if and most of thetime they've already started
doing something to get in touchwith another aspect.
They'll either be hanging outwith their girlfriends more, if
it's the woman, they'll be notgoing to as many school
(21:04):
functions with the kids.
Something will be happeningsubtly that they feel guilty
about.
And then I'll point out and say,well, that's an expression of
taking care of yourself.
And maybe you neglect it.
So you you couch it obviouslyvery, you know, like what's the
word I'm looking for?
You don't make a big deal.
You just make it kind of casual,like, well, you're already kind
(21:25):
of doing that because you're youseem to be exhausted, so you're
trying to get energy fromsomeplace.
And I said that's I'll saythat's what that is.
So what would it be like to domore of that?
Well, I would feel guilty aboutthat.
And then you have to attack theguilt and where that comes from.
And typically that's where youget into false guilt.
I said you're changing yourdynamic, so you feel guilty
(21:47):
about that, but that's not trueguilt.
That's false guilt because youwant you don't want people to
not like you and be frustratedwith you changing your roles.
Which again makes sense in theirheads.
And that's that's the beginningpoint.
When it makes sense, uh theystill feel helpless as to far as
to your point.
If it's a natural energy andthat's my role, how do I get
(22:10):
past feeling guilty?
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Yeah.
The one of the pieces that Ilove of what you just said is
when it's no longer working forthem.
I think that that is often thecase.
Certainly midlife issues willbring up.
But sometimes it happens toteenagers, sometimes it happens
to young adults in college,where what they have done to
(22:33):
survive no longer works, andthere's this sense of
dissatisfaction that I'm I'm notenjoying life like I used to.
I'm not liking myself like Iused to.
It's not working.
And one of the things that Isometimes use, if it seems
appropriate in a givensituation, is to say, well,
(22:54):
let's start with being gratefulto yourself for using a
technique that helped you tosurvive, but it's now no longer
useful.
So let's not berate that you,that part of you that did that.
It helped you get through life.
So let's start with a sense ofgratitude to that, but also an
(23:15):
acknowledgement that somethingneeds to shift because it's no
longer working well.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Yeah, the Adlerian, Alfred Adler, the Adlerian that
I was trained in way back in theday, basically calls those
mistaken beliefs.
So by age five or six or seven,we've formed how we're going to
function in the world.
And so you're right.
Oftentimes, even before we getto midlife, there'll be there'll
be times when we realize they nolonger work.
(23:42):
And then you have to say, do youstill need to do that?
Because their life has changedso much.
And so you have to change, and Ialways use the phrase, you have
to change the mistaken beliefinto a new mistaken belief.
Based upon the present.
And I think that's another wayfor them to get in touch with
the idea of, okay, because youcan almost always make a
(24:04):
connection back to the way theyhandle their emotions and the
family and as to why they had todo that.
And as soon as they make thatconnection, then you can empower
them to say, okay, now youreally can take charge of the
emotional expression that youknow you want to do present time
and become more conscious.
Which is still a nice concept.
(24:26):
It's still going to be very hardto do because in the beginning
they're they're kind of madeunconsciously as a child.
Whereas an adult or a teenageror whatever, you have to do it
more on purpose, which which canfeel energy draining as well.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
Yeah, it can feel overwhelming because of the
unknown.
I've not tried that stylebefore.
Absolutely.
Where's this going to take me?
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
Yeah, but again, that's where you point out when
you when you get them a goodsense of all of these
expressions and what they looklike, you can almost always find
a way in which they'reexpressing them.
SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Great point.
Yeah.
I also think it's valuable towarn somebody that as you take
steps toward change, be preparedthat a family system, a family
of origin, coworkers, they willreact in ways that will make you
(25:21):
uncomfortable because they'reused to you being a particular
way.
Absolutely.
Yeah, what's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
Something happened.
What's wrong with you?
You're different.
Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, yeah,I'm different.
You're weird.
So knock it off.
So yeah, you're right.
And that's again, that's anothergreat point is that what keeps
us from changing so much arepeople's expectations of who
we're supposed to continue tobe.
Yeah.
And then we feel guilty orwhatever, and then we don't
embrace it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
I would propose that the personality style that we
are looking at today, theresponder probably has the
greatest sensitivity to thepushback that comes from family,
family abortion.
Absolutely true.
They had this internal reactionof, oh no, I can't mess up this.
(26:09):
I need to take care of everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
Yeah.
Because the casual way toexpress the responder is their
pleasers.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
And so you're absolutely right.
It it's almost as if it takes alittle more hand holding to say,
no, stay with it, stay with it.
This is the right thing for yourhealth and goodness and
well-being, right?
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
The most tragic yet freeing thing, and this is going
to be controversial, that canhappen for a responder is to
fall madly in love with somebodythat's not their spouse.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Because they may not act on it,they may not do anything about
it, but they it it just brings awhole thing alive in them that
(26:50):
that finally gets them to seethat, oh my word, what have I
been doing with my life?
And that's and that's the thethe transformer in them,
basically.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
I mean about and being externalized and then
needing to realize, oh, that's apart of me that's inside that I
need to pay attention to.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
And that's another really hard conversation.
I had this this week.
When you suppress a desire yourwhole life, and then something
happens where it brings italive, and everybody in your
life is telling you you can't dothat, I told this person, I
said, it's hard pressed to notgo do that because you have
suppressed it.
I said people judge it, they cancondemn it, they can do all they
(27:29):
want.
But I'm telling you what, if youhave minimized a need in your
life that now at age 45 orwhatever, has you found a way to
express it or someone expressesit, it's hard pressed to resist
the attraction.
Good, bad, right, or wrong.
And it again, that's I takeeverything proactively as a way
(27:51):
to get to know ourselves and ifwe believe in the divine, to get
to know the divine better.
Any other way is is justnegative.
So if I screw my life up, it'sabout getting to know myself and
getting to know my creatorbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
So thank you, Jim.
One last piece, we touched baseon this in a previous episode,
but I just want to come back toit.
And that is that sometimesresponders fail to recognize and
are startled when confrontedwith it, that when they are
functioning in this way and itdominates all of who they are,
(28:28):
that there's a narcissistic sideto that.
This giving to others actuallyas a service to themselves to
feel important, to feel needed,to feel like they are integrated
into whatever it is that'shappening.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:41):
That's re Yeah, and that's really difficult for them
to acknowledge.
When I when I use the phrase,well, that's just your
narcissism, because typicallythey're married to a pretty
prototypical narcissist in someways.
They're very successful and andand things like that.
And when I use that phrase, theyreally resist it.
But after a while, they smileand they go, Oh, yeah, I can see
that.
(29:01):
Because you point out the factthat it's very self-absorbed.
You need people to like you.
Well, that's all about you.
So you can say it's it's for thebetter good of everybody, but
no, it's it's about your need.
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
One last thing in kind of bringing this particular
discussion to a close.
Any one of the other threepersonality styles, what are you
missing out on if you're notpaying attention to the
responder side of you?
If that's not a part that youhave nurtured or brought that
(29:35):
voice to the table of yourdecision making, you're gonna
miss out on a very importantvoice if that's always
externalized and given over tosomebody else.
So what are you looking for?
What are you missing out on?
SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
Real briefly, I mean, real uh succinctly, is uh
you're missing out on themoment.
Because again, the responder isvery good in the moment.
Appreciate the moment.
They appreciate the time youspend with family.
They appreciate that's notalways going to be that way.
So I would say, yeah, that youyou miss, uh f for lack of a
(30:10):
better way of expressing it,smelling the smelling the
flowers or the roses or whateverthat phrase is.
Smelling something.
Smelling.
Smelling something.
Good or bad, right or wrong,you're smelling something.
I think before we go, I thinkevery time we talk about
specific traits, we didn't dothat for the responder.
Because basically they theynurture, they shelter, they
(30:32):
accept, they protect, they theyaffirm, they take care of
things, they express confidence,security, optimism, uh, they
trust is a basic value theyhave, which can be taken
advantage of.
So you can see the whole thewhole theme really is the
relationship is most important.
They will try to make it ascomfortable as they can.
They will accept every dynamic.
(30:54):
In fact, I had a real quickthing this week where uh a
friend of mine called and saidthat they had had a conversation
with someone that revealed somethings about their life that
would challenge the beliefsystem of my friend.
And my friend was basicallysaying, I think I was too
accepting.
And their natural energy is toaccept.
(31:16):
I didn't know, I don't think Ichallenged enough of their
beliefs.
And I I I smiled and I justsaid, it'll be fine.
Because basically, that personis going to feel your acceptance
whether you challenge him ornot, because they came to you
for their your acceptancebecause they're in a place where
that's the most important thingto them.
(31:37):
I said, you have to trust Godwith their journey that they'll
be thoughtful enough about theprocess to challenge themselves.
So and this pr this friend ofmine's an incredible responder.
And so, but they were worriedthat that was too extreme.
So it's exactly to your point.
It's like, wait a minute.
Uh so I gave him permission.
I go, we don't give peoplepermission or not permission.
(32:00):
They take whatever they takefrom it.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:03):
Great point and great story.
I think the the initiator, oftenplowing ahead, doesn't give a
second thought to safety issues.
And I so many times I've been ina strategic planning thing
meeting, and great ideas aregoing up on the board, and I
need a voice in there that says,Yeah, yeah, but what about the
children that are not going to,whatever the case is, safety
(32:26):
issues here?
That in some ways, theTransformer has a very prophetic
voice, and like you said, missesthe moment right now to be
present in what's taking place.
So, yeah, this is a reallyimportant voice to bring to the
table.
I will say, in that story youtold just a few moments ago, my
(32:48):
favorite part is that you have afriend.
That's great.
You're making progress, Jim.
SPEAKER_01 (32:55):
Well, you know, we we take we're hyperbole, we we
make things up.
So of course you know I made upa friend, a friend made a friend
up.
Good lord.
And the other thing that I wantto point out is so when the
initiator takes off on afour-wheeler and doesn't really
think about the family he hasand that he could die doing some
(33:16):
of the things he does, yeah,that's uh that's not taking the
responder into account.
Okay.
Thank you for that poignantconfrontational moment.
And I'm so glad that persondoesn't have anybody along with
him when we're do when on thosetrips, because it would inhibit
some of the risk taking that weso casually do that we keep to
(33:39):
ourselves most of the time.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
So that's good.
I appreciate it, Jim.
Hey, as always, great to be withyou.
We're gonna come back thefollowing week and try and bring
some closure to these fourquadrants and see where it takes
us.
So as always.
Thanks, man.
Yep.
That's it for this episode ofTherapy, Coaching, and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
(34:02):
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, and untilnext time, keep growing, stay
curious, and take good care ofyourself.
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