November 19, 2025 • 33 mins
Ever been the life of the party—and then felt the crash after? We dig into the “dynamic feminine” energy: the magnetic spark that says the unsaid, generates fun, and moves people forward, but can also ignore limits, dodge accountability, and create chaos when it runs the show. Together, we map where this energy shines at work and at home, and where it needs a counterbalance to sustain trust, health, and momentum. We call this person The Transformer.
We start with a real-world story: a caring high school librarian who finally set a clear boundary with the cleaning crew and then felt waves of guilt. That moment becomes a blueprint for integration—how to use a different energy than your default and process the feelings that follow. From there, we zoom out to childhood and parenting: the dynamic kid who tests limits, the well-meaning parent who overcorrects, and the role awareness plays in shaping a child’s range instead of shrinking it. We also unpack why the dynamic feminine often pairs with more static partners, what makes that pairing powerful, and how it frays when spontaneity slides into excess.
Therapy enters when crisis forces a pause. We talk enabling, ultimatums that actually help, and the difference between performative boldness and the quieter bold move of consistency. For thrill-seekers, structure is brave. For planners, spontaneity is the edge. You’ll hear practical ways to identify who balances you, borrow their strengths without outsourcing your growth, and build solo joy that isn’t about an audience. Expect clear phrases you can use—like naming a “bold move”—and concrete rituals for pausing before you overshare, overdrink, or overpromise.
By the end, you’ll have a simple framework to navigate energy in relationships, parenting, and work. You’ll know when to let your transformer lead—and when to hand the mic to the part of you that plans, listens, or holds the line. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs both spark and steadiness, and leave a review to help others find it.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm Dee Kelley and I'm herewith my co-host, Jim Shalley.
We're a coach and a therapistwho love talking about how inner
work can help you live withmore awareness, purpose, and
freedom.
We would like to apologize thatthis week's broadcast
experienced some audiodifficulties, and we hope it's
(00:34):
not too distracting.
In spite of that, we hope youenjoy the show.
Welcome everyone to PodcastTherapy Coaching and Dreams.
I am your co-host, Dee Kelley.
Jim Shalley is here with me,and we enjoy spending some time
talking about the things thatoccupy our vocational journey,
but spill over into everythingelse we do in life as well.
(00:55):
So this particular episode, weare going a little bit deeper
into one of the four archetypesof how people use energy, how
they live their lives, and maybegive you some insight as the
listener to whether you fit intothis particular archetype or
(01:15):
whether you might need to findways to access it in your life
because its voice isn't givingyou enough balance.
The absence of it produces someissues, and too much of it can
also produce some issues.
What does this personalitystyle look like?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Let me give an example that will lead into it.
So I had a client this weekthat came in and she's pretty
relational, very, very, I wouldsay static feminine, where she
gets a lot of stuff done, butshe loves people.
Well, she also runs a libraryin a high school.
So and they weren't cleaningthe library, the cleaning
people.
And she said, I didn't want tohurt their feelings, but it just
(02:01):
wasn't getting cleaned and Ididn't know what to do.
And so she said, Finally got soupset, I just I pulled one of
them aside and said, You know,when do you when do you guys
clean?
And she said, I got soforceful, and and I asked them
for a specific day when they'recleaning, and they said Mondays.
I said, okay, and we'll cleanthe rest of the week, but we
need you to clean on Mondays.
And then she said, I went backto my office and I felt so
(02:24):
guilty.
And I went, Oh, sure, you ofcourse you felt guilty.
And she goes, Why was it?
I said, Well, in my framework,you got in touch with a dynamic
masculine who needed to getstuff done and hold people
accountable and make progress.
But your basic style is dynamicfeminine, which is to get
things done, but also to careabout how it's affecting people.
(02:45):
So, of course, it was verypredictable for you to become
strong with the cleaning crew,but then go to your office and
feel bad about it, and then wantto bake some cookies for them.
So that's the kind of theintegration of that.
She said, But it's hard for meto get in touch with the dynamic
masculine to hold peopleaccountable.
I said, of course it is.
Your basic st your basic styleis to err on their side of
(03:09):
relationship first, and whichshe completely agreed with.
I said, but occasionally weneed the uh to access the other.
So to your point, you know, ifI'm if I'm all one style, then I
identify what I'm lacking.
Typically, I'll rely on otherpeople.
So for example, with a dynamicfeminine, if I'm not if I'm
static and I don't like change alot, then and I want to have
(03:33):
some fun, what would I do?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
You'd tap into somebody who produces that fun
for you.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Absolutely.
And then you'd have to workhard at not negating them and
saying, we can't do that.
You're gonna die.
So that's why it's so importantto be conscious because to
identify it first, I want toenjoy whatever it is, so I have
to block the voice that wouldautomatically throw up hurdles
(04:01):
and say, we that's too dangerousto do that.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So I'm gonna throw an alternative to you as opposed
to blocking the voice.
Is there at least some value inbringing that other voice into
consciousness and say, I hearyou?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, they can express that voice.
Absolutely.
That's a great point.
They they could basically say,I'm really hesitant right now,
but I'm gonna trust, trust youto have because I want to have I
want to enjoy the boat ride orwhatever it is.
But then the other person, thenif they're wise and they're
aware of it, they won't be asperhaps dynamic, feminine as
(04:39):
they would have been.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Which is the which is the balance.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I I think an example, if you're gonna use the
librarian, that if that guiltshe feels terrible, all of that
comes up, is to, oh, I get thatbecause that's not my natural
place to be, and there arereasons for that, and I
appreciate that guilt, but I'mnot gonna live into the guilt.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's there for another reason, and it doesn't
fit real well or and it wasinteresting because when I
pointed out to this client thatdynamic, they kind of relaxed
and said, Oh, yeah, that makessense as to why I I feel bad
about it.
He said, Yeah, because again,you're you're you're initiating
an energy that you know needs tohappen.
(05:25):
I said, the real growth is torealize it needs to happen and
don't wait until you get sofrustrated that you implement
it out of frustration asopposed to what needs to happen.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah.
Would you say that theindividual that often is willing
to say what nobody else iswanting to say, even though they
think it, would be thatfeminine dynamic that's I would
say yeah, stand-up comedians,they're dynamic feminine.
Yeah.
Can we maybe backtrack a littlebit to family of origin?
(06:00):
If there's a child in a family,what are some of the
characteristics you're going tosee in a child that that style
is beginning to blossom in them?
And in fact, if you're a parentand you're not sensitive to
that, you may not considerblossoming the appropriate.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Absolutely true.
You try to squelch it as fastas you can.
Obviously, they're intoeverything.
They're energetic, they see newopportunities, they're pushing
the limits, they're they're alot of fun, but they're also
exasperating because they'restill testing all the limits of
and they don't they don't thinkabout how it's going to affect.
(06:44):
That's why typically themasculine energy or the boys get
labeled with that more than thegirls, but it's still a lot of
girls have really strong dynamicfeminine energy.
Talk to any mother of a12-year-old daughter who has
that energy.
Yeah.
(07:21):
But do you think that childrentypically experiment with those
different styles and I thinkthat's why you know both of us
are convinced it's it's in allthose energies that are in are
in us.
And that's in my mind thenumber one job of a parent is to
navigate that.
Because if they're too muchdynamic feminine, a static
(07:44):
mother will come in and kind ofreorganize it, push back a
little bit, talk them throughit, say you can't really get
away with all these things thatyou're doing.
So it's developing the othersides.
But yeah, I do think theparenting parent involvement is
crucial to balance it out.
But think about it, if theparent doesn't isn't aware,
they're gonna have a bias.
(08:05):
So they're gonna push theirkids towards one particular way
of being, and then the kid wantsto please, so they'll they'll
squelch or not get as in touchwith the other other aspects
rather than realizing, okay,where do you need to be right
now, son or daughter?
And that's that's where I thinka parent manages the emotions
and the characteristics, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
I give you what I think is a classic parent
parent-child conflict, and thatis where a parent has tried to
put a structure in place in thehome, and their effort is
well-meaning because it's tryingto bring order to mess.
So this is mostly the masculinestatic, the one who organizes
(08:47):
things.
Right.
And the the dynamic seminant,the child, it doesn't make sense
to them.
And they will verballyquestion, sometimes they'll be
acting out just to push againstthat system.
But when the parent ischallenged, that this, whatever
the rule is, doesn't make sense,it's a moment where the if the
(09:09):
person is so bought into thatthat it's part of their
identity, it's really difficultto actually hear, oh, I think
you're right.
It doesn't make sense.
And so that push-pull can go onfor a long time.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And again, that's why self-awareness as a parent is
so important.
But think about it, when dowhen do people have children?
When they're younger.
And so they aren't as aware asthey would be later on.
That's why grandparents, eventhough they don't spend full
time with the kids, have adifferent approach.
They're going to entertain moreof the personality style,
probably, than when theyparented.
(09:44):
As a grandparent yourself, I'msure that's probably true.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I think one of the things that that contributes to
that is usually grandparents areable to give more attention,
focused attention to the child,because if you're in your 20s or
30s, you are managing multiplekids and jobs and taking care of
the home.
(10:10):
Usually all of those pulls onyour life have decreased as a
grandparent.
And so you can be moreattentive, far more so than you
could when you were a parent.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And entertain their different personalities because
you don't have to live withthem.
You only have a couple hours.
That's right.
And you can put up with thedynamic feminine for two hours.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
You know.
It's like going to thelibrarian and saying, I'd like
to check out this kid for justtwo hours.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
And that's why grandparents that watch the kids
longer than that, they'll be inthis mind of doing some
parenting things because the kidwill push boundaries.
And then does the parent parentdoes the grandparent parent, or
do they, you know, say, I'vegot to go now?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah.
Let's take this back to uhrelationship.
Two people are the relationshipis growing.
The transformer, this femininedynamic energy is magnetic.
I mean, it is attractive to bearound somebody who is not only
providing the energy, but it's atypically at the fun energy.
(11:18):
Now it can be uh reactive likea but more like a prophetic
voice who calls out somethingthat's wrong in a system.
But often it's attractivebecause the individuals say what
somebody else might be not bewilling to say.
There is a spontaneity that isvery attractive.
(11:40):
What happens when that becomesirritating?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, obviously it's too extreme.
They're caught up in their ownego and they can't they can't
they don't they don't read theroom at all.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Lack of sensitivity.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
They don't care how it comesacross.
They're so into it that they'reannoying they're annoying most
of the people in the room, butthey don't the people in the
room don't speak up because it'sbeen so entertaining.
And that's where a spouse willtypically elbow the the the
other one and says, you know,okay, enough is enough.
Because again, if you're inthat complete dynamic feminine
(12:17):
mode, you're just having a greattime.
You drink too much, you say toomuch, you do too much, you you
just do too much.
That's the extreme.
And that can lead into allkinds of negative behaviors if
it's if it's not tempered.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
And and can create chaos, Ratheries.
Yeah.
They try and come behind andban up some of the pieces that
are left from that.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
And then if it if that dynamic feminism is really
in that mode, and then they getshut down by what I would say is
the static masculine, thenthey'll pout because they're in
little kid mode.
And so that's why what we'retalking about, from I'm sure my
perspective and yourperspective, it makes so much
sense to bring balance andsaying, okay, where do I need to
(12:59):
be right now?
I've enjoyed this party, I'vehad a good time, but my wife or
my husband has just pulled at myarm and said, okay, enough.
And then you go, I should haveknown that.
I knew it was I knew.
If they pay attentioninternally, if they have any
kind of wisdom orself-awareness, they'll know
they they've crossed a line.
(13:20):
And I and I think I've saidbefore, you always look at who
people are attracted to.
The dynamic feminine, they willalmost always be attracted
naturally to a static masculine.
I mean, it could be a staticfeminine as well, but something
that's trying to pull them andcontain their energies, just
like their attraction would beto trying to pull them to some
(13:41):
fun.
I mean, the classic thing is wetalked about a few minutes ago.
If I'm on a motorcycle and youhate it, but you'll get on it
because you want to experiencethe right of it just because I
love it so much, then I'm notgoing to go 80 miles an hour.
I'm going to be really carefulabout how I do it.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, that sensitivity to the implications
of who you are applies to all ofthe characteristics.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Absolutely.
I would say just a personalexample with you, it's like when
you're with your kids and youare pushing the limits, you're
much more careful than you arewhen you're by yourself.
Because you're a nut whenyou're by yourself.
If you ride a razor or afour-wheeler by yourself,
completely different energy thanif you have one of your
grandkids on the back of it,which is a very appropriate, by
(14:29):
the way.
So but I'm sure we've scaredyour daughters over the years
with uh some things we've done.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So yeah, I I think that's actually true.
In a family system, I haveobserved at times where there is
this draw to introduce somebodyinto a family of origin, to
date somebody or marry somebodythat you can bring into your
(14:58):
family of origin that can saythe things that you can't say.
And sometimes that's thedynamic side coming through in
another person, and they're kindof using that person as a
substitute for themselves.
And and that works well unlessthe person goes too far and then
makes everyone uncomfortableand creates tension in all sorts
(15:22):
of ways.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Well, again, it's kind of like it's kind of like
uh you're an expert in the otherperson's family system.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So carry this notion that you just described a little
bit for the issue of balance.
Let's start with the person whois the transformer.
And they come to therealization that they like who
they are, but realize that theysometimes bring trouble into
(15:52):
other people's lives, and thatthat catches their attention, or
they realize that something'smissing.
What kinds of things might bemissing in that person's life
that would bring them to seeyou, that would cause conflict
and create a moment wherethey're seeking help from
somebody else?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
The dynamic feminine.
That's a great question becausemost of the time they don't
seek out therapy.
Until until the staticpersonality in their lives takes
them, forces them to again, theextreme is addictions.
They're typically addicts, soto the extreme.
(16:30):
So they're in trouble at work,they're in trouble at home.
Usually they have to be in someform of trouble, they've gone
too far.
And I think that's why thematuring process, I mean, is it
is it is it possible that peoplethat have that energy naturally
in midlife will get to a placewhere they realize they've
created so much chaos that theymight seek that out?
(16:52):
Yes.
But most of the time inmidlife, someone has encouraged
them or almost forced them toseek therapy.
I mean, think about it.
If it's if if it's fun and it'sworking, why why stop?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's it's not only agreat question in this space
where we're describing it, butit's also what a person would
say if their spouse brings themin.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's like it's like finallythis this week I had a couple
that he's recovering addict,year and a half sober.
His wife has enabled him for along time.
She's overfunctioned, she's theclassic enabler.
And they came in and and thesessions have been basically her
expressing her frustrationsbecause he doesn't listen to her
(17:44):
throughout the week because heworks, you know, works 80 hours
a week.
Uh and so he it's the one timethat he'll she has a captive
audience because I'm there.
And so she unloads on him.
So then it's not obviously veryproductive from that
perspective.
So I finally this week was ableto say one thing that she
identified that if she did this,that she would feel heard.
(18:07):
And so I was very forceful.
I said, Well, I can't I won'tsee you again until you make an
appointment and do what she justasked you to do, that you know
makes sense, but you don'treally want to do it, and you're
probably saying yes to mebecause I'm the therapist and
you're patting me on the head alittle bit.
I said, But I'm not gonna seeyou until you do something
that's gonna let her know thatyou hear her and that she has
(18:29):
really done so much for you overthe years with your kids in
your life.
You agreed to it, but we'll seewhat happens.
But that's a case of wherethere's no there's no point in
entertaining a conversation withan extreme dynamic feminine who
basically his comment is, Well,that's what my dad did.
Well, my dad did fun.
(18:49):
To which I say, Did you likeyour dad?
And he'll say, Well, no.
I said, Okay.
Does that say anything?
So again, he's that he's theextreme.
She's the other extreme of thestatic, a masculine, static
feminine, because she's verynurturing as well.
But I had to do something toget his attention, and so we'll
see what happens.
But that's the extreme case ofyou you can't make any progress
(19:11):
until they decide, wait aminute, I'm hurting my wife in
this case.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm familiar with a storywhere a person was told, I'm
offering you this job, andyou've lost your previous job,
but I'm not going to give youthis job until you go to AA
meetings throughout the courseof this month.
(19:37):
This ultimatum where you'vecrashed, and I'm not rescuing.
You've got an energy that isvery winsome and a personality
that people like to be around,but you have a track record
here.
And if you want an income,you're going to have to do
something different.
That's one of the like it's thecrisis moment.
I've come to an impasse.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And I as a therapist, I had to realize that I was
getting caught up in the systembecause uh in that sense, I I
was trying to be compassionatetowards him because he's come
from an incredibly addictedsystem who's been enabled his
whole life.
He's in his 30s, I think, withtwo small kids, and she's come
(20:18):
from this place where she'senabled for five years and is
exhausted.
So I know that if I keep seeingthem, what I'm basically doing
is I'm just gonna get caught upin this system.
So I had to be more forcefulabout pushing him to this to the
static side of himself to seeif he can do it.
If he can't do it, then theonly other thing is that she has
(20:40):
to have s make some serious, inmy mind, serious choices.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I think there's that time in a Transformers journey
where it it feels to me thatTransformers often live this
externally.
Like it is it is a in some waysa lifestyle that's a projection
of some of the things that aregoing on inside.
And fun, energy, spontaneityall provides a stimulus as as it
(21:10):
sometimes leads to addiction,the constant need to have some
something that tells me I'm notnumb.
Do you think that as timeprogresses, there's a
recognition that the outwardprojection is also saying
something about what's missinginside?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
That's a great point.
It all comes back to has thehas the world or the universe
created enough things to give mereason to pause and to
self-reflect.
Yeah.
Remember the dynamic, eitherside of it, feminine or
masculine, they don't pause toself-reflect.
But they will almost alwayshave personal relationships in
(21:48):
their lives that have thattrait.
And so when you point it out tothem and say, okay, they have
that trait, you're attracted tothat trait in them.
That's what you have tointernalize.
But yeah, no, they keep movingforward.
And they and to get them toself-reflect, their life almost
always has to come to a crisispoint, either internally or
externally, by an addiction thatI've hit bottom or my
(22:10):
relationships are going to leaveme or I've blown them all
apart.
That's the hard part of thedynamic side, period.
Whereas the static side, it'shard to get them to move beyond
their stuckness.
That's again why it's allinside of us.
And we've got to figure outthat.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
And I think when a dynamic personality has a very,
very close relationship,typically a spouse, but a very
close relationship, and also bean adult child who no longer
needs their energy becausethey've tapped into their own
inner side.
They have for years, as you'vedescribed, enabled.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Absolutely.
That's a great point.
That is a great point.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
All of a sudden they become healthier and more
balanced, and I don't need thatin you.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Absolutely.
Oh, geez.
I've had so many, and again,this is more stereotypical, but
the wife who cannot rely on thehusband's energy anymore because
it's too spontaneous, they willcreate a life.
They'll go back to school,they'll get a job, they'll do
these things, and all of asudden they're meeting with
their girlfriends.
I have a case right now whereshe plays tennis every day, and
(23:18):
she has a great life, but nolonger relies on her husband,
who unfortunately has got moreinto addictions to handle his
life.
And yeah, he's saying, Shedoesn't want to be around me.
Well, yeah, she created her ownlife.
To your point, it is sothreatening.
But it happens, that crisispoint happens in so many
conscious and unconscious ways,but that's a classic example of
(23:40):
it, where the wife will finallykids are gone, they're bored,
their husband's no longer fun.
He's not even funny anymore,even though he may still be
funny to other people, not toher.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, that's a great point because she no longer
needs that for fulfillment andhas found her own humor within
that changes the whole dynamic.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Or unfortunately, the dysfunctional side is it found
humor in someone else.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yep, absolutely.
It gets more attention to theinner journey and find that
incredibly attractive.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's so interesting.
It's like for a man who lovesto who has that energy and loves
to tell stories, they will haverun every they've run through
those stories with everybody intheir lives and they'll be
depressed because they no longerhave an audience.
Years ago, I had a client thatwas going to move to Florida,
and I basically said, because hecame in depressed, he was in
(24:32):
his 60s, I said, Well, this isgreat, you're gonna retire, you
have a whole new audience.
And sure enough, he went downthere and moved in, I think, the
villages, and he created awhole audience telling all of
his stories, and his wife wouldjust roll her eyes and go to
some other room.
But he loved it because again,but the problem is it sustained
his basic approach, and that mayhave an endpoint as well, if he
(24:53):
if he lived long enough.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
It's also true that it reaches an endpoint and and
nothing changes.
Like a relationship, we'retogether, it's convenient, but
it's ended.
It just hasn't resulted in usleaving each other, and that has
its own dynamic long.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, and you know this as we as we age, if you're
wise at all, you become more ofa spectator.
So that if you had the dynamicfeminine energy and you were the
life of the party in yourfamily system, and now you're in
your 70s, and your son orgrandson or daughter, they're
funny, and they come in and theytake over the room, then you
have to you learn to step backand enjoy that.
(25:36):
A person who doesn't do thatwill still be competitive and
they'll not want to go to thefamily family parties and stuff
because they can't live thatpart out.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah, the competitive nature of that is kind of a
fascinating dynamic,particularly within a family
system or a work group wherethere is a vying for that.
So you started thisconversation.
I'd like you to take it alittle bit further.
The other styles, the staticstyles and then the masculine
dynamic style, what are the waysby which those individuals
(26:10):
become aware of that dynamicseminant, that transformative
voice within them?
Sometimes somebody becomesaware of it just because of who
they're attracted to, but thereare other reasons why you might
need it in order to accomplishsomething, bring about a shift
in your own journey because ithas a real strong energy to it.
(26:33):
Can you help us a little bitfor those who aren't
transformers?
Whether or not they live withone, what is it that they are
looking for or that they'remissing out on that you can
bring to their attention?
Have you ever noticed that youdon't aren't able to do this or
something like that?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah.
For me, the phrase that I usewith people that are they they
come in stuck, I'll use thephrase, maybe you need a bold
move.
And they'll go, you know,they'll ask what do you mean?
I said, well, maybe to get outof the mindset or the feeling of
being stuck, you need to do abold move.
Like, do you like your job?
(27:10):
And they'll typically say,well, no, it's not really.
So, and their kids are maybegone, or something's changed in
their lives that kept them fromidentifying their need for more
spontaneity.
And I said, it a bold movetypically happens consciously or
unconsciously.
I said, early in our lives,there's a lot of bold moves that
happen that we aren't aware ofthat are as bold as they were
(27:32):
really are.
Whether it's a job change orgetting married, all those are
bold moves.
But they're pretty unconscious.
I said, midlife, you bring anawareness to your life that
says, okay, I'm I'm feeling kindof like stagnant.
So what's the bold move?
Well, I can I guess I couldchange jobs.
No, I can't I can't do that.
That'd be crazy.
I I'm only five years fromretirement.
(27:54):
They talk themselves out of itrather than realizing, okay, if
a bold move, if I don't takecharge of the bold move, it's
going to happen one way or theother.
And I think if I can get themto see that and then not and
then notice what the bold moveshave been in their lives, that
they have to acknowledge, yeah,that was a bold move.
And so why'd you do it backthen?
Well, I got a promotion and uhthey moved me across country.
(28:17):
I said, yeah, but it was stilla bold move.
The company just made it, notyou.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, good quote.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
And I think that's a real challenging thing.
And it could be as simple as goto the health club every day
instead of like you sign up andthen go two weeks and then quit.
He said the bold move could besimply staying disciplined with
something you know you need todo.
I got I have a guy right now,he's in his fifties, he's
overweight, and the bold movefor him was to be more aware of,
(28:47):
and I g gave him this phrase,then feels better than food
tastes good.
So he's been saying that tohimself, and he said, I feel
more in the moment.
I said, Yeah, that's the boldmove, is being in the moment,
knowing what you're eating, howthe effect is gonna what the
effect is gonna have on you, andjust your energy level.
That's the bold move.
But doesn't look, you know,bold sounds like whoa, rather
(29:10):
than no, it's a bold move tostay consistent with it.
Especially for someone who'smore and he's much more of a tr
a lot more of a transformer.
And that that bold move seemsweird because in his mind, a
bold move is like, let's have aparty, let's be crazy.
No, the bold move is to bringmore structure to your life.
And that's again, that'sanother way of looking at it.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Would you agree that sometimes we think of bold moves
that impact other people, butsometimes a bold move is to
simply say, on my own, I'm goingto go do this thing that I this
adventure, this I'm gonnaschedule a something that I I
wouldn't normally do.
I wouldn't normally do this onfor myself, but it feels like
(29:55):
maybe it's spontaneous enoughand I'm worth it.
Uh Sometimes I go sailing bymyself when the boat go out.
Or I do I've done wave runnersby myself just to We still need
to buy those.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
We still need to buy those, by the way.
I'm just just saying.
Is that your bold move?
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Don't do I know.
I'll do my bold move today, sobut I think it's a statement to
myself of I enjoy this.
It's spontaneous.
It is energizing, invigorating,and here I go.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And you also, if you're like me, you say, okay,
it probably would be moreenjoyable to share it, but I've
got to get in touch with howenjoyable it is for me just to
do it by myself.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Doing it with others is doing it for others.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yes, absolutely true.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah.
So a combination of those.
I mean, sometimes doing it foryourself leads to that wonderful
relational experience of, and Ienjoy doing it with others now.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Or or you connect with people that are doing it as
well, and they love doing it,and you love doing it, and then
we all love doing it.
So Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
What I love your adage, and I'm I'm gonna mess it
up, so I'm gonna ask you to doit about if you're wanting to
find somebody that likes whatyou like.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Oh yeah.
If you if you want to to marrya a uh a San Diego Padres fan,
you have to go to this to thethe game by yourself and meet
someone who's there bythemselves.
Because then you know they're agenuine fan and they're not
just there to please you oryou're there to please them.
Yeah, I use that analogy allthe time with people.
It's like if I if I uh start todate someone, I use this with
(31:38):
people that are divorced andstarting to date.
I say, from the third date, youlove to go to Home Depot on a
Saturday night.
Take her or him to a Home Depoton a Saturday night, see how
they like it on the third date.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
In the first date, they'll go with you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Exactly.
Absolutely.
And at some point, if you wantto meet somebody who likes home
improvement, go there byyourself.
They're there by themselves,and yes, you'll know they like
it.
Or they're not there justtrying to buy something because
their spouse made them go do it.
I don't know.
But yeah, that's that's how youknow there's a natural energy
in.
And again, it's got ups anddowns to it, but that's that's
(32:15):
how you know.
I'm not dragging you to to asporting event when you don't
really want to go.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I think the Home Depot workers might think you're
a little creepy, but then youuh Yeah, this is our third date.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yeah, she stayed in the car.
So I'm thinking this is ourlast date.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah.
Uh actually that exploration ofthose that are like you, those
that are different than you, howyou're attracted, why you're
attracted.
That's a great discussion,maybe for a future episode to
explore how we become more awareof those attractions and what
they mean about our projection.
Eventually we need to spendsome time on that projection
(32:58):
side in future episodes.
This has been great, though.
Next week we'll dig intoanother personality approach
that takes us in a completelydifferent direction.
But I hope the audience isbeginning to see how all of this
intertwines and leads us togreater health if we'll pay
attention to it.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Me too.
Great.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yep, thanks.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, anduntil next time, keep growing,
stay curious, and take good careof yourself.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams.
I'm Dee Kelley and I'm herewith my co-host, Jim Shalley.
We're a coach and a therapistwho love talking about how inner
work can help you live withmore awareness, purpose, and
freedom.
We would like to apologize thatthis week's broadcast
experienced some audiodifficulties, and we hope it's
(00:34):
not too distracting.
In spite of that, we hope youenjoy the show.
Welcome everyone to PodcastTherapy Coaching and Dreams.
I am your co-host, Dee Kelley.
Jim Shalley is here with me,and we enjoy spending some time
talking about the things thatoccupy our vocational journey,
but spill over into everythingelse we do in life as well.
(00:55):
So this particular episode, weare going a little bit deeper
into one of the four archetypesof how people use energy, how
they live their lives, and maybegive you some insight as the
listener to whether you fit intothis particular archetype or
(01:15):
whether you might need to findways to access it in your life
because its voice isn't givingyou enough balance.
The absence of it produces someissues, and too much of it can
also produce some issues.
What does this personalitystyle look like?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Let me give an example that will lead into it.
So I had a client this weekthat came in and she's pretty
relational, very, very, I wouldsay static feminine, where she
gets a lot of stuff done, butshe loves people.
Well, she also runs a libraryin a high school.
So and they weren't cleaningthe library, the cleaning
people.
And she said, I didn't want tohurt their feelings, but it just
(02:01):
wasn't getting cleaned and Ididn't know what to do.
And so she said, Finally got soupset, I just I pulled one of
them aside and said, You know,when do you when do you guys
clean?
And she said, I got soforceful, and and I asked them
for a specific day when they'recleaning, and they said Mondays.
I said, okay, and we'll cleanthe rest of the week, but we
need you to clean on Mondays.
And then she said, I went backto my office and I felt so
(02:24):
guilty.
And I went, Oh, sure, you ofcourse you felt guilty.
And she goes, Why was it?
I said, Well, in my framework,you got in touch with a dynamic
masculine who needed to getstuff done and hold people
accountable and make progress.
But your basic style is dynamicfeminine, which is to get
things done, but also to careabout how it's affecting people.
(02:45):
So, of course, it was verypredictable for you to become
strong with the cleaning crew,but then go to your office and
feel bad about it, and then wantto bake some cookies for them.
So that's the kind of theintegration of that.
She said, But it's hard for meto get in touch with the dynamic
masculine to hold peopleaccountable.
I said, of course it is.
Your basic st your basic styleis to err on their side of
(03:09):
relationship first, and whichshe completely agreed with.
I said, but occasionally weneed the uh to access the other.
So to your point, you know, ifI'm if I'm all one style, then I
identify what I'm lacking.
Typically, I'll rely on otherpeople.
So for example, with a dynamicfeminine, if I'm not if I'm
static and I don't like change alot, then and I want to have
(03:33):
some fun, what would I do?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
You'd tap into somebody who produces that fun
for you.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Absolutely.
And then you'd have to workhard at not negating them and
saying, we can't do that.
You're gonna die.
So that's why it's so importantto be conscious because to
identify it first, I want toenjoy whatever it is, so I have
to block the voice that wouldautomatically throw up hurdles
(04:01):
and say, we that's too dangerousto do that.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So I'm gonna throw an alternative to you as opposed
to blocking the voice.
Is there at least some value inbringing that other voice into
consciousness and say, I hearyou?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, they can express that voice.
Absolutely.
That's a great point.
They they could basically say,I'm really hesitant right now,
but I'm gonna trust, trust youto have because I want to have I
want to enjoy the boat ride orwhatever it is.
But then the other person, thenif they're wise and they're
aware of it, they won't be asperhaps dynamic, feminine as
(04:39):
they would have been.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Which is the which is the balance.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I I think an example, if you're gonna use the
librarian, that if that guiltshe feels terrible, all of that
comes up, is to, oh, I get thatbecause that's not my natural
place to be, and there arereasons for that, and I
appreciate that guilt, but I'mnot gonna live into the guilt.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's there for another reason, and it doesn't
fit real well or and it wasinteresting because when I
pointed out to this client thatdynamic, they kind of relaxed
and said, Oh, yeah, that makessense as to why I I feel bad
about it.
He said, Yeah, because again,you're you're you're initiating
an energy that you know needs tohappen.
(05:25):
I said, the real growth is torealize it needs to happen and
don't wait until you get sofrustrated that you implement
it out of frustration asopposed to what needs to happen.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah.
Would you say that theindividual that often is willing
to say what nobody else iswanting to say, even though they
think it, would be thatfeminine dynamic that's I would
say yeah, stand-up comedians,they're dynamic feminine.
Yeah.
Can we maybe backtrack a littlebit to family of origin?
(06:00):
If there's a child in a family,what are some of the
characteristics you're going tosee in a child that that style
is beginning to blossom in them?
And in fact, if you're a parentand you're not sensitive to
that, you may not considerblossoming the appropriate.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Absolutely true.
You try to squelch it as fastas you can.
Obviously, they're intoeverything.
They're energetic, they see newopportunities, they're pushing
the limits, they're they're alot of fun, but they're also
exasperating because they'restill testing all the limits of
and they don't they don't thinkabout how it's going to affect.
(06:44):
That's why typically themasculine energy or the boys get
labeled with that more than thegirls, but it's still a lot of
girls have really strong dynamicfeminine energy.
Talk to any mother of a12-year-old daughter who has
that energy.
Yeah.
(07:21):
But do you think that childrentypically experiment with those
different styles and I thinkthat's why you know both of us
are convinced it's it's in allthose energies that are in are
in us.
And that's in my mind thenumber one job of a parent is to
navigate that.
Because if they're too muchdynamic feminine, a static
(07:44):
mother will come in and kind ofreorganize it, push back a
little bit, talk them throughit, say you can't really get
away with all these things thatyou're doing.
So it's developing the othersides.
But yeah, I do think theparenting parent involvement is
crucial to balance it out.
But think about it, if theparent doesn't isn't aware,
they're gonna have a bias.
(08:05):
So they're gonna push theirkids towards one particular way
of being, and then the kid wantsto please, so they'll they'll
squelch or not get as in touchwith the other other aspects
rather than realizing, okay,where do you need to be right
now, son or daughter?
And that's that's where I thinka parent manages the emotions
and the characteristics, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
I give you what I think is a classic parent
parent-child conflict, and thatis where a parent has tried to
put a structure in place in thehome, and their effort is
well-meaning because it's tryingto bring order to mess.
So this is mostly the masculinestatic, the one who organizes
(08:47):
things.
Right.
And the the dynamic seminant,the child, it doesn't make sense
to them.
And they will verballyquestion, sometimes they'll be
acting out just to push againstthat system.
But when the parent ischallenged, that this, whatever
the rule is, doesn't make sense,it's a moment where the if the
(09:09):
person is so bought into thatthat it's part of their
identity, it's really difficultto actually hear, oh, I think
you're right.
It doesn't make sense.
And so that push-pull can go onfor a long time.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And again, that's why self-awareness as a parent is
so important.
But think about it, when dowhen do people have children?
When they're younger.
And so they aren't as aware asthey would be later on.
That's why grandparents, eventhough they don't spend full
time with the kids, have adifferent approach.
They're going to entertain moreof the personality style,
probably, than when theyparented.
(09:44):
As a grandparent yourself, I'msure that's probably true.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I think one of the things that that contributes to
that is usually grandparents areable to give more attention,
focused attention to the child,because if you're in your 20s or
30s, you are managing multiplekids and jobs and taking care of
the home.
(10:10):
Usually all of those pulls onyour life have decreased as a
grandparent.
And so you can be moreattentive, far more so than you
could when you were a parent.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And entertain their different personalities because
you don't have to live withthem.
You only have a couple hours.
That's right.
And you can put up with thedynamic feminine for two hours.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
You know.
It's like going to thelibrarian and saying, I'd like
to check out this kid for justtwo hours.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
And that's why grandparents that watch the kids
longer than that, they'll be inthis mind of doing some
parenting things because the kidwill push boundaries.
And then does the parent parentdoes the grandparent parent, or
do they, you know, say, I'vegot to go now?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah.
Let's take this back to uhrelationship.
Two people are the relationshipis growing.
The transformer, this femininedynamic energy is magnetic.
I mean, it is attractive to bearound somebody who is not only
providing the energy, but it's atypically at the fun energy.
(11:18):
Now it can be uh reactive likea but more like a prophetic
voice who calls out somethingthat's wrong in a system.
But often it's attractivebecause the individuals say what
somebody else might be not bewilling to say.
There is a spontaneity that isvery attractive.
(11:40):
What happens when that becomesirritating?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, obviously it's too extreme.
They're caught up in their ownego and they can't they can't
they don't they don't read theroom at all.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Lack of sensitivity.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
They don't care how it comesacross.
They're so into it that they'reannoying they're annoying most
of the people in the room, butthey don't the people in the
room don't speak up because it'sbeen so entertaining.
And that's where a spouse willtypically elbow the the the
other one and says, you know,okay, enough is enough.
Because again, if you're inthat complete dynamic feminine
(12:17):
mode, you're just having a greattime.
You drink too much, you say toomuch, you do too much, you you
just do too much.
That's the extreme.
And that can lead into allkinds of negative behaviors if
it's if it's not tempered.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
And and can create chaos, Ratheries.
Yeah.
They try and come behind andban up some of the pieces that
are left from that.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
And then if it if that dynamic feminism is really
in that mode, and then they getshut down by what I would say is
the static masculine, thenthey'll pout because they're in
little kid mode.
And so that's why what we'retalking about, from I'm sure my
perspective and yourperspective, it makes so much
sense to bring balance andsaying, okay, where do I need to
(12:59):
be right now?
I've enjoyed this party, I'vehad a good time, but my wife or
my husband has just pulled at myarm and said, okay, enough.
And then you go, I should haveknown that.
I knew it was I knew.
If they pay attentioninternally, if they have any
kind of wisdom orself-awareness, they'll know
they they've crossed a line.
(13:20):
And I and I think I've saidbefore, you always look at who
people are attracted to.
The dynamic feminine, they willalmost always be attracted
naturally to a static masculine.
I mean, it could be a staticfeminine as well, but something
that's trying to pull them andcontain their energies, just
like their attraction would beto trying to pull them to some
(13:41):
fun.
I mean, the classic thing is wetalked about a few minutes ago.
If I'm on a motorcycle and youhate it, but you'll get on it
because you want to experiencethe right of it just because I
love it so much, then I'm notgoing to go 80 miles an hour.
I'm going to be really carefulabout how I do it.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, that sensitivity to the implications
of who you are applies to all ofthe characteristics.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Absolutely.
I would say just a personalexample with you, it's like when
you're with your kids and youare pushing the limits, you're
much more careful than you arewhen you're by yourself.
Because you're a nut whenyou're by yourself.
If you ride a razor or afour-wheeler by yourself,
completely different energy thanif you have one of your
grandkids on the back of it,which is a very appropriate, by
(14:29):
the way.
So but I'm sure we've scaredyour daughters over the years
with uh some things we've done.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So yeah, I I think that's actually true.
In a family system, I haveobserved at times where there is
this draw to introduce somebodyinto a family of origin, to
date somebody or marry somebodythat you can bring into your
(14:58):
family of origin that can saythe things that you can't say.
And sometimes that's thedynamic side coming through in
another person, and they're kindof using that person as a
substitute for themselves.
And and that works well unlessthe person goes too far and then
makes everyone uncomfortableand creates tension in all sorts
(15:22):
of ways.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Well, again, it's kind of like it's kind of like
uh you're an expert in the otherperson's family system.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So carry this notion that you just described a little
bit for the issue of balance.
Let's start with the person whois the transformer.
And they come to therealization that they like who
they are, but realize that theysometimes bring trouble into
(15:52):
other people's lives, and thatthat catches their attention, or
they realize that something'smissing.
What kinds of things might bemissing in that person's life
that would bring them to seeyou, that would cause conflict
and create a moment wherethey're seeking help from
somebody else?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
The dynamic feminine.
That's a great question becausemost of the time they don't
seek out therapy.
Until until the staticpersonality in their lives takes
them, forces them to again, theextreme is addictions.
They're typically addicts, soto the extreme.
(16:30):
So they're in trouble at work,they're in trouble at home.
Usually they have to be in someform of trouble, they've gone
too far.
And I think that's why thematuring process, I mean, is it
is it is it possible that peoplethat have that energy naturally
in midlife will get to a placewhere they realize they've
created so much chaos that theymight seek that out?
(16:52):
Yes.
But most of the time inmidlife, someone has encouraged
them or almost forced them toseek therapy.
I mean, think about it.
If it's if if it's fun and it'sworking, why why stop?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's it's not only agreat question in this space
where we're describing it, butit's also what a person would
say if their spouse brings themin.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's like it's like finallythis this week I had a couple
that he's recovering addict,year and a half sober.
His wife has enabled him for along time.
She's overfunctioned, she's theclassic enabler.
And they came in and and thesessions have been basically her
expressing her frustrationsbecause he doesn't listen to her
(17:44):
throughout the week because heworks, you know, works 80 hours
a week.
Uh and so he it's the one timethat he'll she has a captive
audience because I'm there.
And so she unloads on him.
So then it's not obviously veryproductive from that
perspective.
So I finally this week was ableto say one thing that she
identified that if she did this,that she would feel heard.
(18:07):
And so I was very forceful.
I said, Well, I can't I won'tsee you again until you make an
appointment and do what she justasked you to do, that you know
makes sense, but you don'treally want to do it, and you're
probably saying yes to mebecause I'm the therapist and
you're patting me on the head alittle bit.
I said, But I'm not gonna seeyou until you do something
that's gonna let her know thatyou hear her and that she has
(18:29):
really done so much for you overthe years with your kids in
your life.
You agreed to it, but we'll seewhat happens.
But that's a case of wherethere's no there's no point in
entertaining a conversation withan extreme dynamic feminine who
basically his comment is, Well,that's what my dad did.
Well, my dad did fun.
(18:49):
To which I say, Did you likeyour dad?
And he'll say, Well, no.
I said, Okay.
Does that say anything?
So again, he's that he's theextreme.
She's the other extreme of thestatic, a masculine, static
feminine, because she's verynurturing as well.
But I had to do something toget his attention, and so we'll
see what happens.
But that's the extreme case ofyou you can't make any progress
(19:11):
until they decide, wait aminute, I'm hurting my wife in
this case.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm familiar with a storywhere a person was told, I'm
offering you this job, andyou've lost your previous job,
but I'm not going to give youthis job until you go to AA
meetings throughout the courseof this month.
(19:37):
This ultimatum where you'vecrashed, and I'm not rescuing.
You've got an energy that isvery winsome and a personality
that people like to be around,but you have a track record
here.
And if you want an income,you're going to have to do
something different.
That's one of the like it's thecrisis moment.
I've come to an impasse.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And I as a therapist, I had to realize that I was
getting caught up in the systembecause uh in that sense, I I
was trying to be compassionatetowards him because he's come
from an incredibly addictedsystem who's been enabled his
whole life.
He's in his 30s, I think, withtwo small kids, and she's come
(20:18):
from this place where she'senabled for five years and is
exhausted.
So I know that if I keep seeingthem, what I'm basically doing
is I'm just gonna get caught upin this system.
So I had to be more forcefulabout pushing him to this to the
static side of himself to seeif he can do it.
If he can't do it, then theonly other thing is that she has
(20:40):
to have s make some serious, inmy mind, serious choices.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I think there's that time in a Transformers journey
where it it feels to me thatTransformers often live this
externally.
Like it is it is a in some waysa lifestyle that's a projection
of some of the things that aregoing on inside.
And fun, energy, spontaneityall provides a stimulus as as it
(21:10):
sometimes leads to addiction,the constant need to have some
something that tells me I'm notnumb.
Do you think that as timeprogresses, there's a
recognition that the outwardprojection is also saying
something about what's missinginside?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
That's a great point.
It all comes back to has thehas the world or the universe
created enough things to give mereason to pause and to
self-reflect.
Yeah.
Remember the dynamic, eitherside of it, feminine or
masculine, they don't pause toself-reflect.
But they will almost alwayshave personal relationships in
(21:48):
their lives that have thattrait.
And so when you point it out tothem and say, okay, they have
that trait, you're attracted tothat trait in them.
That's what you have tointernalize.
But yeah, no, they keep movingforward.
And they and to get them toself-reflect, their life almost
always has to come to a crisispoint, either internally or
externally, by an addiction thatI've hit bottom or my
(22:10):
relationships are going to leaveme or I've blown them all
apart.
That's the hard part of thedynamic side, period.
Whereas the static side, it'shard to get them to move beyond
their stuckness.
That's again why it's allinside of us.
And we've got to figure outthat.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
And I think when a dynamic personality has a very,
very close relationship,typically a spouse, but a very
close relationship, and also bean adult child who no longer
needs their energy becausethey've tapped into their own
inner side.
They have for years, as you'vedescribed, enabled.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Absolutely.
That's a great point.
That is a great point.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
All of a sudden they become healthier and more
balanced, and I don't need thatin you.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Absolutely.
Oh, geez.
I've had so many, and again,this is more stereotypical, but
the wife who cannot rely on thehusband's energy anymore because
it's too spontaneous, they willcreate a life.
They'll go back to school,they'll get a job, they'll do
these things, and all of asudden they're meeting with
their girlfriends.
I have a case right now whereshe plays tennis every day, and
(23:18):
she has a great life, but nolonger relies on her husband,
who unfortunately has got moreinto addictions to handle his
life.
And yeah, he's saying, Shedoesn't want to be around me.
Well, yeah, she created her ownlife.
To your point, it is sothreatening.
But it happens, that crisispoint happens in so many
conscious and unconscious ways,but that's a classic example of
(23:40):
it, where the wife will finallykids are gone, they're bored,
their husband's no longer fun.
He's not even funny anymore,even though he may still be
funny to other people, not toher.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, that's a great point because she no longer
needs that for fulfillment andhas found her own humor within
that changes the whole dynamic.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Or unfortunately, the dysfunctional side is it found
humor in someone else.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yep, absolutely.
It gets more attention to theinner journey and find that
incredibly attractive.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's so interesting.
It's like for a man who lovesto who has that energy and loves
to tell stories, they will haverun every they've run through
those stories with everybody intheir lives and they'll be
depressed because they no longerhave an audience.
Years ago, I had a client thatwas going to move to Florida,
and I basically said, because hecame in depressed, he was in
(24:32):
his 60s, I said, Well, this isgreat, you're gonna retire, you
have a whole new audience.
And sure enough, he went downthere and moved in, I think, the
villages, and he created awhole audience telling all of
his stories, and his wife wouldjust roll her eyes and go to
some other room.
But he loved it because again,but the problem is it sustained
his basic approach, and that mayhave an endpoint as well, if he
(24:53):
if he lived long enough.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
It's also true that it reaches an endpoint and and
nothing changes.
Like a relationship, we'retogether, it's convenient, but
it's ended.
It just hasn't resulted in usleaving each other, and that has
its own dynamic long.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, and you know this as we as we age, if you're
wise at all, you become more ofa spectator.
So that if you had the dynamicfeminine energy and you were the
life of the party in yourfamily system, and now you're in
your 70s, and your son orgrandson or daughter, they're
funny, and they come in and theytake over the room, then you
have to you learn to step backand enjoy that.
(25:36):
A person who doesn't do thatwill still be competitive and
they'll not want to go to thefamily family parties and stuff
because they can't live thatpart out.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah, the competitive nature of that is kind of a
fascinating dynamic,particularly within a family
system or a work group wherethere is a vying for that.
So you started thisconversation.
I'd like you to take it alittle bit further.
The other styles, the staticstyles and then the masculine
dynamic style, what are the waysby which those individuals
(26:10):
become aware of that dynamicseminant, that transformative
voice within them?
Sometimes somebody becomesaware of it just because of who
they're attracted to, but thereare other reasons why you might
need it in order to accomplishsomething, bring about a shift
in your own journey because ithas a real strong energy to it.
(26:33):
Can you help us a little bitfor those who aren't
transformers?
Whether or not they live withone, what is it that they are
looking for or that they'remissing out on that you can
bring to their attention?
Have you ever noticed that youdon't aren't able to do this or
something like that?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah.
For me, the phrase that I usewith people that are they they
come in stuck, I'll use thephrase, maybe you need a bold
move.
And they'll go, you know,they'll ask what do you mean?
I said, well, maybe to get outof the mindset or the feeling of
being stuck, you need to do abold move.
Like, do you like your job?
(27:10):
And they'll typically say,well, no, it's not really.
So, and their kids are maybegone, or something's changed in
their lives that kept them fromidentifying their need for more
spontaneity.
And I said, it a bold movetypically happens consciously or
unconsciously.
I said, early in our lives,there's a lot of bold moves that
happen that we aren't aware ofthat are as bold as they were
(27:32):
really are.
Whether it's a job change orgetting married, all those are
bold moves.
But they're pretty unconscious.
I said, midlife, you bring anawareness to your life that
says, okay, I'm I'm feeling kindof like stagnant.
So what's the bold move?
Well, I can I guess I couldchange jobs.
No, I can't I can't do that.
That'd be crazy.
I I'm only five years fromretirement.
(27:54):
They talk themselves out of itrather than realizing, okay, if
a bold move, if I don't takecharge of the bold move, it's
going to happen one way or theother.
And I think if I can get themto see that and then not and
then notice what the bold moveshave been in their lives, that
they have to acknowledge, yeah,that was a bold move.
And so why'd you do it backthen?
Well, I got a promotion and uhthey moved me across country.
(28:17):
I said, yeah, but it was stilla bold move.
The company just made it, notyou.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, good quote.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
And I think that's a real challenging thing.
And it could be as simple as goto the health club every day
instead of like you sign up andthen go two weeks and then quit.
He said the bold move could besimply staying disciplined with
something you know you need todo.
I got I have a guy right now,he's in his fifties, he's
overweight, and the bold movefor him was to be more aware of,
(28:47):
and I g gave him this phrase,then feels better than food
tastes good.
So he's been saying that tohimself, and he said, I feel
more in the moment.
I said, Yeah, that's the boldmove, is being in the moment,
knowing what you're eating, howthe effect is gonna what the
effect is gonna have on you, andjust your energy level.
That's the bold move.
But doesn't look, you know,bold sounds like whoa, rather
(29:10):
than no, it's a bold move tostay consistent with it.
Especially for someone who'smore and he's much more of a tr
a lot more of a transformer.
And that that bold move seemsweird because in his mind, a
bold move is like, let's have aparty, let's be crazy.
No, the bold move is to bringmore structure to your life.
And that's again, that'sanother way of looking at it.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Would you agree that sometimes we think of bold moves
that impact other people, butsometimes a bold move is to
simply say, on my own, I'm goingto go do this thing that I this
adventure, this I'm gonnaschedule a something that I I
wouldn't normally do.
I wouldn't normally do this onfor myself, but it feels like
(29:55):
maybe it's spontaneous enoughand I'm worth it.
Uh Sometimes I go sailing bymyself when the boat go out.
Or I do I've done wave runnersby myself just to We still need
to buy those.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
We still need to buy those, by the way.
I'm just just saying.
Is that your bold move?
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Don't do I know.
I'll do my bold move today, sobut I think it's a statement to
myself of I enjoy this.
It's spontaneous.
It is energizing, invigorating,and here I go.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And you also, if you're like me, you say, okay,
it probably would be moreenjoyable to share it, but I've
got to get in touch with howenjoyable it is for me just to
do it by myself.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Doing it with others is doing it for others.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yes, absolutely true.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah.
So a combination of those.
I mean, sometimes doing it foryourself leads to that wonderful
relational experience of, and Ienjoy doing it with others now.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Or or you connect with people that are doing it as
well, and they love doing it,and you love doing it, and then
we all love doing it.
So Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
What I love your adage, and I'm I'm gonna mess it
up, so I'm gonna ask you to doit about if you're wanting to
find somebody that likes whatyou like.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Oh yeah.
If you if you want to to marrya a uh a San Diego Padres fan,
you have to go to this to thethe game by yourself and meet
someone who's there bythemselves.
Because then you know they're agenuine fan and they're not
just there to please you oryou're there to please them.
Yeah, I use that analogy allthe time with people.
It's like if I if I uh start todate someone, I use this with
(31:38):
people that are divorced andstarting to date.
I say, from the third date, youlove to go to Home Depot on a
Saturday night.
Take her or him to a Home Depoton a Saturday night, see how
they like it on the third date.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
In the first date, they'll go with you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Exactly.
Absolutely.
And at some point, if you wantto meet somebody who likes home
improvement, go there byyourself.
They're there by themselves,and yes, you'll know they like
it.
Or they're not there justtrying to buy something because
their spouse made them go do it.
I don't know.
But yeah, that's that's how youknow there's a natural energy
in.
And again, it's got ups anddowns to it, but that's that's
(32:15):
how you know.
I'm not dragging you to to asporting event when you don't
really want to go.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I think the Home Depot workers might think you're
a little creepy, but then youuh Yeah, this is our third date.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yeah, she stayed in the car.
So I'm thinking this is ourlast date.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah.
Uh actually that exploration ofthose that are like you, those
that are different than you, howyou're attracted, why you're
attracted.
That's a great discussion,maybe for a future episode to
explore how we become more awareof those attractions and what
they mean about our projection.
Eventually we need to spendsome time on that projection
(32:58):
side in future episodes.
This has been great, though.
Next week we'll dig intoanother personality approach
that takes us in a completelydifferent direction.
But I hope the audience isbeginning to see how all of this
intertwines and leads us togreater health if we'll pay
attention to it.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Me too.
Great.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yep, thanks.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching,
and Dreams.
If you're enjoying the podcast,we'd love for you to follow,
rate, or share it with someonewho might appreciate it as well.
Thanks for being here, anduntil next time, keep growing,
stay curious, and take good careof yourself.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, no, that's good stuff.
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