September 7, 2025 • 39 mins
Today, we delve into the world of copyediting and how it applies to your self-publishing journey. In this episode, you will get a better understanding of the difference between the developmental editor and the copyeditor, when you might want to bring one onboard, common misunderstandings, preserving the author’s tone and so much more. By the end of this episode, you will have a solid grasp of what a copyeditor is and Jayne’s five best tips that you can put into play to give your manuscript a grade up.
Jayne Marshall is an author and a developmental editor at Modern Odyssey Books. Her latest book, A Line Drawn or Printed: Six Routes Through Madrid, can be found at all fine retailers. She currently resides in Spain.
You can also follow her by visiting one of her sites below:
- Website: jaynemarshall.com
- Subscribe to her Substack here: whoiaminspanish.substack.com
Have a publishing question? Email me at mica@micamerrillrice.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
What's up plot twisters and a warm welcome to
my page turners, the intriguedreaders and listeners who are
just stepping into the story.
Whatever title you fancy today,I am so happy you're here with
us.
You're listening toTraditionally Self-Published,
(00:20):
where we unravel the chaos ofself-publishing and help you
write your own success storylike a pro.
I'm your host, MikaMerrill-Rice, author with a
passion for learning and sharingthe love.
I'm bringing you real talk withpublishing pros and indie
authors just like me who flippedthe script and built thriving
author careers on their ownterms and are doing it like a
(00:42):
pro.
Whether you're rewriting yourthird novel or still plotting
your first, you're right whereyou need to be.
This episode is part of myinaugural back to school series
and covers editing 101.
Today we're unraveling themagical world of copy editing.
What is it?
And more importantly, when inthe process do you need one?
(01:02):
If you've ever wondered whatseparates a polished book from a
forgettable one, this episode isdefinitely for you.
I am joined today by the verylovely and super patient Jane
Marshall, a professional editorwho's based in Madrid and works
as an in-house developmentaleditor at Odyssey Books.
She is kind enough today, she'sdeviating from her job as a dev
(01:24):
editor to indulge us with allthings copy editing.
So today we're going to talkabout the role of the copy
editor, how an indie author canbest prepare for one, how they
preserve the author's voiceduring the process, and then
we're going to conclude with theInk Starter lightning round and
Jane's five best tips forauthors.
All right, students, class is insession.
(01:45):
So thank you, Jane, so much forjoining us.
I really am excited to do this.
Thank you for having me.
Awesome.
So Jane, tell us a little bitabout yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Well, as you mentioned, I live in Madrid in
Spain, but I'm from the UKoriginally.
I've been in Spain now for 11years and yeah, I work as a
development editor.
I'm also a writer myself and I'mjust a big old editing geek.
So I'm really glad to be here totalk about all things words.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Awesome.
All right.
So, so fun.
All right.
How did you get into the editingbusiness and what types of
editing do you do?
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Well, as you mentioned, I am a development
editor mainly, but I also docopy editing.
And as we're going to discussprobably later, there is a lot
of overlap between the two sortof disciplines.
And the way I got into it, Iguess it was a bit of a
circuitous route in some ways.
I'm a typical lifelong reader.
(02:47):
I was the kid under the blanketswith the torch, reading after
lights out and probably ruiningmy eyesight.
UNKNOWN (02:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
So I think, you know, having a love of words is
probably a good basis for anyeditor.
and then when I moved to Spainmy first job was teaching
English which I'd never donebefore and that really gave me a
great understanding of the nutsand bolts of the language and
how to answer all these reallyobscure grammar questions that
my students would come up withand then after that I studied a
(03:20):
creative writing masters whichgave me a really good
understanding of the nuts andbolts of storytelling so those
two really helped me to get myfirst job basically as an
editor, which was a Spanishpublisher here in Madrid, but
for editing in English.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
I love it.
And I love that you read underthe covers and stuck your
reading late at night.
I think many of us do this.
And yes, we are big rebels and Ilove it.
All right.
So let's get into copy editing.
Tell me first, how does itdiffer from developmental
editing, line editing,proofreading?
(04:01):
How does it all fit in there?
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Well, yeah, it's a great question.
And I just want to say first offthat I think The terminology is
really useful.
Obviously we need that, but Ithink it can also occasionally
be a little bit confusing,mainly as well, because there's
lots of different words for thesame thing.
And I think maybe that could putpeople off sometimes and make it
(04:23):
sound like the editing processis just ridiculously lengthy and
overwhelming.
So just to say that, but so mytake on it is that it comes down
to three areas, which are theones you mentioned.
So the first one is thedevelopment edit or the
structural edit.
Those are the two main terms.
So that's the big picture stuff.
The second is the copy editingor the line editing that you
(04:46):
mentioned.
And that's for polishing andconsistency.
And then thirdly, the proofing.
So for technical accuracy at thelanguage level.
And that's the order I would dothem in.
And so, yeah, the differencebetween copy editing and
development editing is likegoing from zoom out on your
(05:07):
story.
So that's the development edit.
So, yeah.
I like to imagine it like somebig empty room with your, this
might be because I'm very oldfashioned and analog, but this
is the way I imagine it.
A big empty room with yourmanuscript laid out page by page
by page.
And you get this like brilliantoverview of it.
And you can see, oh, thischapter needs moving up to more
(05:27):
to the beginning.
This theme is trailing a littlebit here.
This character is getting a bitlost in the middle.
those kind of big picture thingsor zoomed out things.
And then zooming in would be thecopy editing.
So a line level where you canreinforce those other bigger
things in a sense.
(05:48):
So where can you reinforce yourthemes and where can you make
sure it's all tallying together,but also consistency.
So I'm trying to think of a goodexample, like one I do all the
time.
I think it's a UK-US Englishthing.
So I use whilst instead ofwhile, but then sometimes I'll
switch.
So just to make sure, you know,you're consistent with all of
(06:08):
your, you know, little kind ofquirks in that way.
Yeah, but like I said before aswell, there is quite a lot of
overlap as well.
So when you're doing a lineedit, a copy edit, you might
see...
opportunities to reinforce yourstructure or your themes you
might even think oh you knowwhat I'm actually going to move
that paragraph like to the endor something like that you know
(06:30):
so there is quite a lot ofoverlap there as well
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Very nice.
All right.
Well, that's great.
I, it's so funny that you saylike you use waltzed and like we
might say, well, but I'll doboth.
And I have no idea where it evencame from.
I just do both.
But I love that you are, yourjob is so detailed because I
think like as a writer,sometimes we, we read it so
much.
We miss these things.
(06:55):
And that's why like, you know,giving it to someone like you is
so like deeply important.
So very good to know.
So now that we've We know whatcopy editing is and we're zoomed
in.
When should an author look tohire one in the writing process?
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Right.
Great.
Another great question.
So I would say when themanuscript is basically is
tight.
So your themes are set, yourthemes are clear, your structure
is stable.
It's kind of done at the levelof plot, characterization,
timing, theme, again, pace.
All of that is done.
you know, on a big level, butthere's still polishing needed
(07:33):
at a line level.
I would say that generally wouldbe around your third draft.
And I don't mean like a draft,like, I don't know, you've just
flipped through it and thenchanged a few things and that's
a new draft and not there'sanything wrong with that.
This is just the way that Iwork.
So a draft is a third draftwould be like, it's been through
(07:54):
three quite, big stages alreadyand you're pretty much happy you
know the story's out of yourhead and on the page but now you
just need to yeah like polish itall up nicely very
SPEAKER_02 (08:04):
nice yes I uh I know we talked about like it's three
main edits I think I mean itdepends on how you look at it
right it could be like 50 I canfeel like 50 it could be like
100 and I think as a writer youjust I know for me when I got to
the end of mine it was like Idon't know what else I could do
(08:26):
to this.
I can't like read this anymore.
I'm sick of my own writing.
Now it is time to give it to
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
somebody else.
Totally.
No, that's totally normal.
Yeah.
My first boss called it givingit to somebody with distant
eyes, which I always reallyliked.
It's like, yeah, my eyes aredefinitely not distant anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
I love it.
I love
SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
it.
So where in the publishingtimeline should copy editing
happen?
So we finished our manuscript.
We're done doing it.
Is it copy line edit first andthen of editing, which I think
you've already kind of touchedon.
But for the listeners, likewhere in the process does it
actually happen?
Is it first?
Is it second?
Last?
How does that go?
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
Well, in a word, second, I would say.
So you've got your, you know,you've had the idea, you've got
it all onto paper, you've workedwith somebody to or the editor
to develop the story and thethemes.
And then yeah, you're prettymuch like happy that it's all in
place and then you would go toto a copy editor or might be the
(09:26):
same editor um to make sure it'sjust you know really really
fantastic and then you wouldhand it over to a proofreader to
make sure all your commas are inthe right place and your eyes
are dotted and your t's arecrossed so to speak um before
you then literally get it readyfor printing or for ebook
(09:47):
Awesome
SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
and what do you feel like more authors
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
understood about this stage?
Yeah I love this questionbecause um it kind of touches on
something which is close to myheart about editing more widely
which is um well for one thing Ithink it should be fun which
might be controversial but um soI understand that it could it
(10:12):
kind of on paper, pun intended,could sound like a real pain,
you know, trawling through themanuscript line by line.
You know, it doesn't necessarilysound like something very, very
fun or rewarding, but I reallythink it is.
And I've kind of got a tip onthat later as well.
So yeah, I understand that itcan be fun and rewarding, but
(10:34):
then also with editing morewidely, it's also not a stage
that I think that we should skipor, or think, I don't know, or
that can get fixed later on.
So for example, if we're talkingabout querying, for example, you
think, oh no, the agent, they'lllike the idea, they like the
plot, you know, the kind ofpitch, then we can sort out all
(10:56):
of that other stuff later on.
I don't agree with that becauseI feel like the aim should
always be, you know, to make ourwork the best it can be.
And that's for us as writersmore than for anything else.
And obviously there's alwaysgoing to be changes.
There's always going to bethings that you see.
I don't know if you've seen thismeme going around saying, like,
the best way to edit your workis to publish it and then you
(11:18):
see all the mistakes.
Oh, yes,
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
I know that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
So there are always going to be those moments.
But I think we should always bestriving to feel proud and happy
with our work.
And that basically is the aim ofediting for me.
So that's kind of what I wouldlike authors to understand,
really.
Don't skip it and try and enjoyit.
SPEAKER_02 (11:39):
Very, very good advice.
I love it.
And on that, I just had an extraquestion that I wanted to ask.
So you talk about an agent.
Obviously, if you were going togo the traditional route, you
have to get an agent and thenthe agent's going to pitch it
and then somebody will pick upyour manuscript.
What I'm wondering is like, whotells us writers, like we write
(12:00):
the story, obviously we have anidea in our head, but maybe it's
not like, you know, it's notsomething that, you know,
readers are going to read.
Like, you know, there's certainthings that readers are into,
maybe like a trend.
Who tells us that?
Is it like...
an editor?
Or is that like the agent thatsays, I don't know, this, you
know, found family trope, let'ssay is like, this is done, like,
(12:23):
we're not doing this, you can'tdo it.
Or, hey, you know, I love thestory.
But like, first person is superhot right now.
So if you can do this, but infirst person, like, how do we
know what's trending?
So that, you know, while we'relike, kind of working through
the story, we can kind of thinklike, what would the reader
actually want?
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
yeah that's i feel that's the million dollar
question isn't it um well i'dsay there's possibly two ways of
looking at it one is to just tryand ignore trends because they
are trends and by the timeyou've actually finished your
manuscript and got it out in theworld probably the trend has
moved on to something else soyou know to it's kind of cliched
(13:04):
i guess but i i do believe itthat You've just got to go with
what you feel as the writer isthe best way to tell your story.
So that's one way, just ignoreit.
I think the other way, whichprobably happens naturally for
any writer, is just to readwidely and that way you're going
to know what's hot and what'snot.
(13:25):
In terms of who would tell usthat, I feel like an agent
might, unless they, well, yeah,if they were very, very
interested in your pitch andyour story, they might
suggest...
I love it but you know can weswitch the POV or can we set it
in a different country or timezone or something like that and
(13:47):
that also might be somethingthat you could work with the
agent on that and do like loadsof edits and then they send it
out on submission to publishersand they might have a different
opinion you know that's kind ofwhat I mean by when I say your
manuscript is done it's actuallykind of almost now done in that
sense yeah but yeah what was onelast thing I was going to say
(14:07):
about that oh yes just that anagent told me once that any
agent or publisher when theyreceive your you know the
manuscript you put your heartand soul into and so many hours
of work they will see it as afirst draft
SPEAKER_02 (14:22):
that's very good to know even as an author like we
have to remember that when youknow when we're done writing and
we choose to hire an editorwhich I think is super important
as I mentioned like That is avery good point.
Like you're going to send itoff.
It's not done.
It's going to come back.
But I, but I love your advice.
(14:43):
Like we don't have the, youknow, indie authors don't have
that ability to go to an agentand talk to them because we're
skipping that and we're goingstraight to an editor.
But I love your advice aboutreading widely.
I think this is super importantbecause you can be a writer, but
you're not going to be greatunless you're actually reading
too, you know, and reading likedifferent genres or, you know,
(15:05):
just, kind of picking apart astory what did you like what did
you not like so
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
exactly yeah I agree like you read something and you
feel really excited by it andthink oh that what they've done
there is so like you knowdifferent and yeah that's a it's
the best way to learn for sure
SPEAKER_02 (15:21):
for sure so how can us indie authors best prepare
our manuscript before hiring acopy editor um
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
um whereas yeah as i mentioned before definitely the
big picture stuff so you've gotyour you know your your plot is
working there's no holes yourcharacters are all you know well
formed and uh three-dimensionaluh timing pace all those things
because if not basically itwould just be a waste of money
because if it's not alreadytight structurally any line
(15:53):
edits that an editor will makeat that point will probably end
up being redundant because theauthor at some point will have
to go back and fix all thatother big picture stuff so so
all that money is spent on onthe on the copy edit will be you
know at least probably 50percent lost so make sure you've
got yeah your big your bigstructural changes all done and
(16:15):
then then you can hand it over
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Very good.
And what about like working withpotential client?
Like you're an editor, right?
But do you edit certain genres?
Do you like to sit down and talkto the actual writer before, you
know, getting into it?
What are like red flags for you?
What are some of the hardpasses?
Like, I don't know, like, shouldit be like, I don't know, a
dating app, you know, where youkind of like, we talk to each
(16:40):
other a little bit and you'relike, well, you might not be for
me and I might not be for you.
So maybe you need to find likeanother one or do you just take
anything and everything?
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
Well, you hit the nail on the head really.
For me, it's the dating appanalogy.
There has to be, yeah, you haveto basically get on well, I
think.
And be, I was going to say onthe same page, coming up with
all these puns I didn't know Ihad in my head.
But yeah, there has to be,feeling that you can work well
(17:11):
together in in a nutshell so ummy i was thinking earlier it's a
bit like therapists have theirown have their own therapists so
i'm i'm an editor but i alsohave my own editor for my own
work so i understand like howemotional the process can be and
and i feel apprehensive everytime i send something to to my
(17:31):
editor because I think it'shuman really, or, or at least
for writers that we, we secretlyjust want the editor to come
back and say, do you know what?
Absolutely perfect.
Don't change a word.
I think that's like the, youknow, it's equally what we want
to hear, but that's, you know,just isn't how it works.
Not even for the so-calledgeniuses.
So all that to say, like, I, Iunderstand that it's, it's a
(17:56):
very vulnerable process.
So yeah, I understand that, butat the same time, I want to work
with somebody who is open tosuggestions, who wants to work
collaboratively and make it arewarding experience for the
author to see their work go fromone thing to another.
I'm not saying that it comes tome or anyone in a bad way, but
(18:20):
you see how you can just make itshine, basically.
someone somebody that I workwith would would really have to
be open to that and I know itsounds kind of obvious but there
are people that are veryresistant to all the suggestions
that they have hired you to makeso yeah I just I would want to
work with somebody who sees thatum the value in that
(18:41):
collaborative relationshipversus like it's it's me versus
you it's writer versus editorkind of thing
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
I love that, a team
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
collaboration.
SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So when an author sends you amanuscript, what is it like?
Are you getting out your big redmarker and you're like, this is
terrible, I don't want to dothis?
Or should there be like, authorsends you a manuscript, leaves
you alone for a little bit, letsyou kind of digest it?
(19:12):
and then come back.
And then when you do come back,if that's the process, like,
should it be like a little bitback and forth?
Like, how does that work?
Like, how does thateditor-writer relationship
supposed to kind of work?
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
Yeah.
Another great question.
I do personally try not toimpose too much structure on
that because every author andevery manuscript will be
different and have differentneeds.
So it's better to let the personand the words dictate the system
that you'll use versus the otherway around.
But it is obviously verynecessary and useful to have a
(19:48):
way of working.
So the way I work, and I thinkmost editors work, is you have
sort of a pre-conversation.
So the author will come to youand let them know, obviously,
about the story and themanuscript itself, what they're
looking for.
because as we discussed with theterminology, sometimes, and it's
(20:08):
obviously perfectly normal, anauthor might come to you and
say, I want you to edit mymanuscript, but not realize, or
maybe not know, you know, thedifferent levels and terminology
and stuff.
So you just, you know, you mightask what stage are you at?
How many drafts have you done?
That kind of thing, an outline,not a pitch exactly, but you
know, a summary of what thestory is.
(20:29):
Some editors do a sample edit,but yeah, which is a good idea
too for both the author and theeditor to get to know each
other's working style.
But in my experience, generallyafter that preliminary
conversation, I'll just jumpright in to the manuscript and
go through, yeah, do my thing,send it back to the author.
(20:49):
So for me, that generally lookslike margin comments plus an
editorial letter.
So sometimes, so the editorialletter is a little bit more
touching on the structuralstuff.
So yeah, kind of things that younotice that you don't exactly
want to point out on aline-by-line level, but more
generally over the manuscript,you've noticed, like, I don't
(21:09):
know, a manuscript I worked onrecently, a sense of place
wasn't really coming through,yet it was actually very
important to the story.
So, like, just to say generallydevelop sense of place, not
obviously that, with a bit moredetail than that, you know,
that's the kind of thing I wouldput in the letter, and then
margin comments to support that.
(21:29):
And then after that, send itback, either we might have a
call like this, you know, like avideo call to discuss it or I
might do another round after theauthor has gone through my
original comments and then I'lldo another round with them
another call so it depends alsodepends on the length because I
edited a novella recently whichwas 16,000 words so that was
(21:52):
quite easy to just go back andforth a few times but Then I
also recently did an 80,000 wordmanuscript.
So that's a little bitdifferent.
You can't really just like pingback and forth on 80,000 words.
So yeah, generally it'd be around of edits and a call or a
couple of round of edits and acall.
SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
Very nice.
Awesome.
That's very, very good to know.
Just knowing that there shouldbe a little bit of back and
forth, but giving you time toget through it before you're
coming back.
And then also taking intoaccount the size of the
manuscript.
That's extremely important aswell.
All right.
So let's talk about how do youpreserve an author's voice while
(22:34):
editing their work?
Like we've done it.
I know people are maybe a littlebit apprehensive about, you
know, hiring an editor.
They're going to change my wholestory.
That's not what I want to say,but like, how do you, how do you
preserve that?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
It's yeah.
It's I love this question again,because I think probably every,
every editor me included wouldsay that was, you know,
absolutely essential, but it isalso really hard not to let your
own voice sneak in, especiallyif you're also a writer.
So I think the best way topreserve the editor's voice is
(23:09):
to make sure you get to knowthat voice before you begin.
So again, if it's somethingshort, like the novella I
mentioned, you could read thewhole thing before you make any
comments and just immerseyourself in that work.
or if it's longer, read a fewchapters before you go in and
start making edits.
(23:30):
So yeah, it's something you haveto be constantly aware of, I
think.
But the best way is just to tryand immerse yourself and block
out your own kind of aestheticpreferences.
Very
SPEAKER_02 (23:44):
good.
That has to be hard.
I just don't know if I couldever be like an editor.
You're just like, you guys areso patient and able to do that
and tune it all out.
I don't know if I could do that,but that's great.
I'm sure you could.
What about a style guide?
Now, I know you're based inMadrid.
Maybe I know like Europeaneditors may work a little bit
(24:07):
different if you're working withwriters that are, you know,
across the pond, we say, orlike, versus like an author in
the US, but like, do you have aspecific style guide that you
follow?
Like whether it's the Chicagomanual style, AP style, any,
like what, how do you do that?
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
Yeah, my, I've always used just personally as a
frame of reference to the MLAsystem, but obviously the best
way to, to check is to checkwith the author what, either
what they're using or whatthey're doing sort of naturally
so whatever is closest to howthey kind of write naturally if
that makes sense like um justrecently I was working on two
(24:46):
manuscripts and one was from aUS author and they were using
the serial comma and one wasfrom a European author and they
weren't using the serial commaso I was like okay I have to get
my head you know like in thissystem or in that system so as a
as a frame of reference formyself I like MLA but um Yes,
(25:06):
just a bit like the voice thing,really.
You have to get into themanuscript and see what's the
best system to fit, basically.
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
Very nice.
SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
Because none of them are wrong or right.
It's just whichever one you wantto use and keep using
consistently.
That's the kind of, like wementioned with copyediting,
that's the purpose of it, tokeep it all consistent.
Very good.
SPEAKER_02 (25:31):
Awesome.
And then how do you navigatethrough edits that are, they're
technically they're correct, butthey may not fit the author's
tone.
Like, how do you know this?
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
How do I know if it's correct or how do I know
which way to go?
Both, I guess.
Yeah.
Well, again, maybe because I amalso a writer, I would probably
naturally err on the side oftone versus correctness, which
might be controversial as aneditor, I don't know.
But that would be something Iwould highlight to the author
(26:06):
via a margin comment.
So something along the lines of,you know, I really like what
you've done here.
It's not, you know, strictlyspeaking correct this is the way
you would say it correctly kindof you know your call really um
because again like there areauthors that that will want
grammatical accuracy overeverything else you know that's
(26:28):
why they've hired you but thenthere are also authors that that
want uh well the opposite theywant their their voice and their
tone to come to come over morestrongly.
So one of the authors I've beenworking with recently, she, in
the nicest possible way, we havethis great back and forth, but
she always pushes back, like, Iknow what you're saying.
(26:49):
I know you're right, but itdoesn't feel right for my
writing.
And I'm like, great.
You do whatever you feel isbest, you know?
So maybe it's a little bit likebatting the ball back over, but
I would give the author theoptions and then say, you know,
your final call, basically, ifyou want to be, you know, very
very accurate do it this way ifyou want to be if you want to be
(27:12):
you do it
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
this way that is super important and you just
like brought up another likereally really good point um
we're you know I'm a writeryou're a writer we have editors
but ultimately like we we havethe final say obviously like you
know you're you're an editor andyou're making these suggestions
based on your you know knowledgeyour expertise and but we don't
(27:38):
have to necessarily doeverything that you're asking us
to do, right?
Like that's kind of the wholepoint, you know, you're making
the suggestions, trying to makeit, you know, help make the
writer's, you know, voice reallycome through, but ultimately we
can make that final decision,right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Oh yeah, absolutely, 100%.
And I'm glad you brought that upbecause I usually lead with that
actually.
You know, like we're here toadvise, we're here to, you know,
bounce ideas off, butAbsolutely.
The author has the last wordevery time.
Definitely.
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
Awesome.
All right.
We've made it to the Inkstarterlightning round.
I am so excited for this.
We're going to do like three,no, four quick questions that I
have for you.
And so let's go.
All right.
So what's your favorite editingtool or software?
SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
I might have mentioned earlier, I'm very
analog, so I don't use anysoftware, just word, track
changes, margin comments.
I have dabbled with, I thinksomeone gave me a free trial to
Scrivener and I was like, yeah,it's cool, but I can just do
this by doing my old school,putting the pages on the floor.
(28:47):
So that's just me.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
No, I'm the same way.
I print everything out.
I feel bad for the trees, but Ihave to like physically hold it
and do it.
So that's good.
What's one grammar myth you wishwould just disappear?
SPEAKER_00 (29:05):
The one about, I'm not sure the correct name of it
is, but starting a sentencewith, and, but, though, sorry,
not though, and, but, so, orbecause that, that thing, it's
just, no, just start thesentence.
how you want to start it.
Sorry if that's controversial,but yeah, just get rid of that
one.
(29:25):
Because sometimes it can changethe whole tone of the paragraph.
So start your sentence howeveryou like.
I
SPEAKER_02 (29:33):
love it.
All right.
While you're editing, coffee,tea or wine, which one are you
drinking when you're editing?
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
Because I'm in Madrid, it gets very hot in the
summer.
So it depends.
And very cold in the winter,actually.
So it depends on the season.
Always, always, always start themorning with coffee.
And I have to have that, like,you know, as soon as I wake up.
So always coffee.
And then throughout the day, itsounds really...
you know, not at all shocking,but my new addiction is ginger
(30:03):
tea.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
Oh, I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
But then if it's really hot, I might have fizzy
water.
So yeah.
And then wine for the evening,but after do the working days
then.
SPEAKER_02 (30:16):
Totally get it.
All right.
And my last one, em dashes.
All right.
Is this writer's fashion fauxpas or is this totally on trend
that we're using the em dashes?
SPEAKER_00 (30:28):
Is this the editing version of the mullet?
For
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
sure.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
This is, you know, you kind of, this is a very
controversial question.
So I like them in my own writinganyway, but I think that's
probably because I'm quite,possibly a little bit meandering
like I go off in differentdirections and they're they're
quite helpful if you want tojust take something off in a
different direction momentarilyand I think maybe it imitates
(30:59):
more using an em dash is helpfulfor imitating how we speak and
and yeah how we kind of interactmore in a more natural setting
but I do understand that it'sbecome kind of a catch-all for
lots of other differentpunctuation that we have
invented for that specificreason.
So it's kind of taking the placeof lots of other punctuation.
(31:22):
So yeah.
Yeah, I'm going to stay on thefence because I don't want to
keep males.
I love it.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (31:30):
my gosh.
All
SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
right, Jane,
SPEAKER_02 (31:32):
you've made it through the Grand Inquisition.
And now it is time.
You have prepared five must-havetips for us authors.
I can't wait to hear yours.
So give it to me.
What are your five must-havetips?
SPEAKER_03 (31:45):
Yay.
SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
Well, I'm very excited to share these.
So I put them in order of how Ido them.
But as we just mentionedearlier, it's up to the author,
you know, however it feelsnatural to you, the author's
writing process.
But this is the way I would doit.
So number one, make your ownstyle guide.
So a little bit like yourquestion previously about MLA
(32:06):
and Chicago and all thosethings.
So every publishing house willhave an in-house style guide for
consistency and professionalism.
And I say, there's no reason whywe can't have, you know, the
same.
So yeah, Keep things consistentand smooth in your manuscript.
Think about are you going to useo'clock or are you going to use
a.m., p.m.?
If you're using a.m., p.m., areyou going to use a, you know,
(32:30):
what is it in American English,period, m, period, or learned or
learnt, serial comma, no serialcomma, single speech marks,
double speech marks, that kindof thing.
So It's good if you want tochoose a system to follow as
well, but also I think it'shandy to make some notes, you
know, to follow as you're goingthrough.
(32:51):
So the main things that mightcome up so that you can say, oh,
hang on.
Yeah, am I using Learned?
Can't remember.
Where's my style guide?
That kind of thing.
So that just, you know, it mightseem...
picky I don't know but it justmakes the manuscript and the
writing a lot smoother and moreand more professional in the
same way that um would happenwithin a you know a big five or
(33:13):
something like that publishinghouse so number one make your
own style guide uh number twothis is one that I think is fun
which is to scan for inactiveverbs because we all we all do
it So to make your writing moredynamic and compelling on that
line level that we talked about,scan for inactive verbs and
(33:34):
think about how you can replacethem.
You don't always have to replacethem.
I think just we all have atendency to use think, feel,
look, sound, believe, becausethat's probably because that's
how we speak.
So sometimes it's necessary andgood to use those, but other
times, you know, you can swapthem out and have a think about
how you can rewrite them in amore kind of interesting way.
(33:57):
So I made some not verybrilliant examples here.
So instead of, for example, shethought about what he said and
felt sad every time she did youcould say something like their
conversation echoed in her headover the next few days and she
became more discouraged eachtime she remembered his words
(34:19):
you know that kind of you know Ilove that thank you so you take
out thought said feel and youjust restructure that sentence
or also with feelings likeinstead of saying a character
felt you know and then you addthe emotion you can often
rewrite those so like I insteadof I felt angry you could say
(34:42):
the anger turned my face ablotchy red my hands began to
tremble that was my otherexample so this is why I think
it's fun because you canliterally do a search in word
you know like for for thespecific words so like think
feel etc and then you can go andfind them each time and just
have some fun, like seeing howyou can rewrite those.
(35:04):
So yeah, scan for inactive verbsand rewrite if you want to.
And kind of related to that one,my third one is where can you
add texture?
So yeah, a little bit likenumber two, if you have...
I don't know, this is, again,not the best example, but if,
say, the story is set by theseaside or there's a kind of a
(35:26):
theme of water, where can youjust subtly thread that through
on a line level to reinforcethat, you know, even
subconsciously in the reader?
So this, again, is just my,like, kind of not the most
overworked examples, but insteadof she cried, you could have her
tears surging and crashingagain.
and like waves or, you know, orimplying that it's like waves.
(35:49):
So, you know, just go throughand add those little extra bits
of texture in the semanticfields.
I think that's another fun onepersonally.
And number four is read aloud.
And it's kind of obvious, butabsolutely essential because a
bit like the same as printingout and editing, it's amazing,
(36:10):
as I'm sure you know, howdifferent the experience of your
writing is when you read italoud.
And that one is particularlygood for checking your
punctuation as well, becauseyou'll stumble over anything
that's in the wrong place.
If it's like a really longdocument, sometimes for my own
writing, I'll get word to readit to me.
I don't know if you've ever usedthat automatic voice in Word.
(36:32):
I've just heard about that, butI haven't used it yet.
Sometimes I do both because thegood thing about the kind of
automatic voice is that it hasno emotion whatsoever and it has
no investment in your writing.
So you hear it reallydispassionately and that's kind
of oddly helpful because you cansee where the voice stumbles or,
(36:52):
yeah, I don't know, it kind ofgives you that distant eyes
thing, but distant ears.
UNKNOWN (36:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
uh so yeah always read aloud either yourself or or
word and then the fifth onewhich is probably the most
important is to pace yourselfbecause um it's just you know if
you think about those are myfive tips or four tips for for
line editing and then you thinkabout all the other tips for
development editing and proofinglike it it gets overwhelming so
(37:20):
pace yourself my As aprofessional editor, my absolute
maximum for a line level is 30pages a day.
And that's like 1.5 or doublespaced in Word because your
brain just stops seeing thingsin the end.
So you really do need to giveyourself time and space for the
process.
And the other thing is, if not,you just end up rushing it to
(37:44):
get over with.
So when you're in the writingprocess, it's good to schedule
that in.
So like, I don't know, just sayto yourself, right, you know,
I'm going to finish editing.
I'm going to finish writing byJuly.
And then I'm going to givemyself a whole month.
And I'm going to do this amountof pages a day or however long
it might take.
So slice the elephant,basically.
SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
I love it.
I love it.
Those are fabulous tips.
I am definitely going to betaking those into my own writing
because some of them I haven'tused.
I love the reading with the wordfor sure and the style.
I love that too.
That's something I don't think Ieven considered.
Just think about what style youwant to use and all that.
(38:25):
This has been one of the funnestconversations.
It's been so much fun.
I have really enjoyed our timetogether.
I thank you so much.
for joining us today on the showand having fun with me and
sharing this process of copyediting and giving us your five
must-have tips.
So if you're interested inlearning more about Jane
(38:46):
Marshall's editing services orcheck out her latest release
because she has a brand new bookherself coming out, check the
show notes for her website, herSubstack publication, and places
you can purchase her books.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Traditionally
Self-Published.
If this And be sure to check thefirst episode where I share a
(39:12):
bit about how this all came tobe and why building a helpful
community is so important.
Until next time, be bold, writesmart, and keep turning those
pages.
What's up plot twisters and a warm welcome to
my page turners, the intriguedreaders and listeners who are
just stepping into the story.
Whatever title you fancy today,I am so happy you're here with
us.
You're listening toTraditionally Self-Published,
(00:20):
where we unravel the chaos ofself-publishing and help you
write your own success storylike a pro.
I'm your host, MikaMerrill-Rice, author with a
passion for learning and sharingthe love.
I'm bringing you real talk withpublishing pros and indie
authors just like me who flippedthe script and built thriving
author careers on their ownterms and are doing it like a
(00:42):
pro.
Whether you're rewriting yourthird novel or still plotting
your first, you're right whereyou need to be.
This episode is part of myinaugural back to school series
and covers editing 101.
Today we're unraveling themagical world of copy editing.
What is it?
And more importantly, when inthe process do you need one?
(01:02):
If you've ever wondered whatseparates a polished book from a
forgettable one, this episode isdefinitely for you.
I am joined today by the verylovely and super patient Jane
Marshall, a professional editorwho's based in Madrid and works
as an in-house developmentaleditor at Odyssey Books.
She is kind enough today, she'sdeviating from her job as a dev
(01:24):
editor to indulge us with allthings copy editing.
So today we're going to talkabout the role of the copy
editor, how an indie author canbest prepare for one, how they
preserve the author's voiceduring the process, and then
we're going to conclude with theInk Starter lightning round and
Jane's five best tips forauthors.
All right, students, class is insession.
(01:45):
So thank you, Jane, so much forjoining us.
I really am excited to do this.
Thank you for having me.
Awesome.
So Jane, tell us a little bitabout yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Well, as you mentioned, I live in Madrid in
Spain, but I'm from the UKoriginally.
I've been in Spain now for 11years and yeah, I work as a
development editor.
I'm also a writer myself and I'mjust a big old editing geek.
So I'm really glad to be here totalk about all things words.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Awesome.
All right.
So, so fun.
All right.
How did you get into the editingbusiness and what types of
editing do you do?
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Well, as you mentioned, I am a development
editor mainly, but I also docopy editing.
And as we're going to discussprobably later, there is a lot
of overlap between the two sortof disciplines.
And the way I got into it, Iguess it was a bit of a
circuitous route in some ways.
I'm a typical lifelong reader.
(02:47):
I was the kid under the blanketswith the torch, reading after
lights out and probably ruiningmy eyesight.
UNKNOWN (02:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
So I think, you know, having a love of words is
probably a good basis for anyeditor.
and then when I moved to Spainmy first job was teaching
English which I'd never donebefore and that really gave me a
great understanding of the nutsand bolts of the language and
how to answer all these reallyobscure grammar questions that
my students would come up withand then after that I studied a
(03:20):
creative writing masters whichgave me a really good
understanding of the nuts andbolts of storytelling so those
two really helped me to get myfirst job basically as an
editor, which was a Spanishpublisher here in Madrid, but
for editing in English.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
I love it.
And I love that you read underthe covers and stuck your
reading late at night.
I think many of us do this.
And yes, we are big rebels and Ilove it.
All right.
So let's get into copy editing.
Tell me first, how does itdiffer from developmental
editing, line editing,proofreading?
(04:01):
How does it all fit in there?
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Well, yeah, it's a great question.
And I just want to say first offthat I think The terminology is
really useful.
Obviously we need that, but Ithink it can also occasionally
be a little bit confusing,mainly as well, because there's
lots of different words for thesame thing.
And I think maybe that could putpeople off sometimes and make it
(04:23):
sound like the editing processis just ridiculously lengthy and
overwhelming.
So just to say that, but so mytake on it is that it comes down
to three areas, which are theones you mentioned.
So the first one is thedevelopment edit or the
structural edit.
Those are the two main terms.
So that's the big picture stuff.
The second is the copy editingor the line editing that you
(04:46):
mentioned.
And that's for polishing andconsistency.
And then thirdly, the proofing.
So for technical accuracy at thelanguage level.
And that's the order I would dothem in.
And so, yeah, the differencebetween copy editing and
development editing is likegoing from zoom out on your
(05:07):
story.
So that's the development edit.
So, yeah.
I like to imagine it like somebig empty room with your, this
might be because I'm very oldfashioned and analog, but this
is the way I imagine it.
A big empty room with yourmanuscript laid out page by page
by page.
And you get this like brilliantoverview of it.
And you can see, oh, thischapter needs moving up to more
(05:27):
to the beginning.
This theme is trailing a littlebit here.
This character is getting a bitlost in the middle.
those kind of big picture thingsor zoomed out things.
And then zooming in would be thecopy editing.
So a line level where you canreinforce those other bigger
things in a sense.
(05:48):
So where can you reinforce yourthemes and where can you make
sure it's all tallying together,but also consistency.
So I'm trying to think of a goodexample, like one I do all the
time.
I think it's a UK-US Englishthing.
So I use whilst instead ofwhile, but then sometimes I'll
switch.
So just to make sure, you know,you're consistent with all of
(06:08):
your, you know, little kind ofquirks in that way.
Yeah, but like I said before aswell, there is quite a lot of
overlap as well.
So when you're doing a lineedit, a copy edit, you might
see...
opportunities to reinforce yourstructure or your themes you
might even think oh you knowwhat I'm actually going to move
that paragraph like to the endor something like that you know
(06:30):
so there is quite a lot ofoverlap there as well
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Very nice.
All right.
Well, that's great.
I, it's so funny that you saylike you use waltzed and like we
might say, well, but I'll doboth.
And I have no idea where it evencame from.
I just do both.
But I love that you are, yourjob is so detailed because I
think like as a writer,sometimes we, we read it so
much.
We miss these things.
(06:55):
And that's why like, you know,giving it to someone like you is
so like deeply important.
So very good to know.
So now that we've We know whatcopy editing is and we're zoomed
in.
When should an author look tohire one in the writing process?
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Right.
Great.
Another great question.
So I would say when themanuscript is basically is
tight.
So your themes are set, yourthemes are clear, your structure
is stable.
It's kind of done at the levelof plot, characterization,
timing, theme, again, pace.
All of that is done.
you know, on a big level, butthere's still polishing needed
(07:33):
at a line level.
I would say that generally wouldbe around your third draft.
And I don't mean like a draft,like, I don't know, you've just
flipped through it and thenchanged a few things and that's
a new draft and not there'sanything wrong with that.
This is just the way that Iwork.
So a draft is a third draftwould be like, it's been through
(07:54):
three quite, big stages alreadyand you're pretty much happy you
know the story's out of yourhead and on the page but now you
just need to yeah like polish itall up nicely very
SPEAKER_02 (08:04):
nice yes I uh I know we talked about like it's three
main edits I think I mean itdepends on how you look at it
right it could be like 50 I canfeel like 50 it could be like
100 and I think as a writer youjust I know for me when I got to
the end of mine it was like Idon't know what else I could do
(08:26):
to this.
I can't like read this anymore.
I'm sick of my own writing.
Now it is time to give it to
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
somebody else.
Totally.
No, that's totally normal.
Yeah.
My first boss called it givingit to somebody with distant
eyes, which I always reallyliked.
It's like, yeah, my eyes aredefinitely not distant anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
I love it.
I love
SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
it.
So where in the publishingtimeline should copy editing
happen?
So we finished our manuscript.
We're done doing it.
Is it copy line edit first andthen of editing, which I think
you've already kind of touchedon.
But for the listeners, likewhere in the process does it
actually happen?
Is it first?
Is it second?
Last?
How does that go?
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
Well, in a word, second, I would say.
So you've got your, you know,you've had the idea, you've got
it all onto paper, you've workedwith somebody to or the editor
to develop the story and thethemes.
And then yeah, you're prettymuch like happy that it's all in
place and then you would go toto a copy editor or might be the
(09:26):
same editor um to make sure it'sjust you know really really
fantastic and then you wouldhand it over to a proofreader to
make sure all your commas are inthe right place and your eyes
are dotted and your t's arecrossed so to speak um before
you then literally get it readyfor printing or for ebook
(09:47):
Awesome
SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
and what do you feel like more authors
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
understood about this stage?
Yeah I love this questionbecause um it kind of touches on
something which is close to myheart about editing more widely
which is um well for one thing Ithink it should be fun which
might be controversial but um soI understand that it could it
(10:12):
kind of on paper, pun intended,could sound like a real pain,
you know, trawling through themanuscript line by line.
You know, it doesn't necessarilysound like something very, very
fun or rewarding, but I reallythink it is.
And I've kind of got a tip onthat later as well.
So yeah, I understand that itcan be fun and rewarding, but
(10:34):
then also with editing morewidely, it's also not a stage
that I think that we should skipor, or think, I don't know, or
that can get fixed later on.
So for example, if we're talkingabout querying, for example, you
think, oh no, the agent, they'lllike the idea, they like the
plot, you know, the kind ofpitch, then we can sort out all
(10:56):
of that other stuff later on.
I don't agree with that becauseI feel like the aim should
always be, you know, to make ourwork the best it can be.
And that's for us as writersmore than for anything else.
And obviously there's alwaysgoing to be changes.
There's always going to bethings that you see.
I don't know if you've seen thismeme going around saying, like,
the best way to edit your workis to publish it and then you
(11:18):
see all the mistakes.
Oh, yes,
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
I know that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
So there are always going to be those moments.
But I think we should always bestriving to feel proud and happy
with our work.
And that basically is the aim ofediting for me.
So that's kind of what I wouldlike authors to understand,
really.
Don't skip it and try and enjoyit.
SPEAKER_02 (11:39):
Very, very good advice.
I love it.
And on that, I just had an extraquestion that I wanted to ask.
So you talk about an agent.
Obviously, if you were going togo the traditional route, you
have to get an agent and thenthe agent's going to pitch it
and then somebody will pick upyour manuscript.
What I'm wondering is like, whotells us writers, like we write
(12:00):
the story, obviously we have anidea in our head, but maybe it's
not like, you know, it's notsomething that, you know,
readers are going to read.
Like, you know, there's certainthings that readers are into,
maybe like a trend.
Who tells us that?
Is it like...
an editor?
Or is that like the agent thatsays, I don't know, this, you
know, found family trope, let'ssay is like, this is done, like,
(12:23):
we're not doing this, you can'tdo it.
Or, hey, you know, I love thestory.
But like, first person is superhot right now.
So if you can do this, but infirst person, like, how do we
know what's trending?
So that, you know, while we'relike, kind of working through
the story, we can kind of thinklike, what would the reader
actually want?
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
yeah that's i feel that's the million dollar
question isn't it um well i'dsay there's possibly two ways of
looking at it one is to just tryand ignore trends because they
are trends and by the timeyou've actually finished your
manuscript and got it out in theworld probably the trend has
moved on to something else soyou know to it's kind of cliched
(13:04):
i guess but i i do believe itthat You've just got to go with
what you feel as the writer isthe best way to tell your story.
So that's one way, just ignoreit.
I think the other way, whichprobably happens naturally for
any writer, is just to readwidely and that way you're going
to know what's hot and what'snot.
(13:25):
In terms of who would tell usthat, I feel like an agent
might, unless they, well, yeah,if they were very, very
interested in your pitch andyour story, they might
suggest...
I love it but you know can weswitch the POV or can we set it
in a different country or timezone or something like that and
(13:47):
that also might be somethingthat you could work with the
agent on that and do like loadsof edits and then they send it
out on submission to publishersand they might have a different
opinion you know that's kind ofwhat I mean by when I say your
manuscript is done it's actuallykind of almost now done in that
sense yeah but yeah what was onelast thing I was going to say
(14:07):
about that oh yes just that anagent told me once that any
agent or publisher when theyreceive your you know the
manuscript you put your heartand soul into and so many hours
of work they will see it as afirst draft
SPEAKER_02 (14:22):
that's very good to know even as an author like we
have to remember that when youknow when we're done writing and
we choose to hire an editorwhich I think is super important
as I mentioned like That is avery good point.
Like you're going to send itoff.
It's not done.
It's going to come back.
But I, but I love your advice.
(14:43):
Like we don't have the, youknow, indie authors don't have
that ability to go to an agentand talk to them because we're
skipping that and we're goingstraight to an editor.
But I love your advice aboutreading widely.
I think this is super importantbecause you can be a writer, but
you're not going to be greatunless you're actually reading
too, you know, and reading likedifferent genres or, you know,
(15:05):
just, kind of picking apart astory what did you like what did
you not like so
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
exactly yeah I agree like you read something and you
feel really excited by it andthink oh that what they've done
there is so like you knowdifferent and yeah that's a it's
the best way to learn for sure
SPEAKER_02 (15:21):
for sure so how can us indie authors best prepare
our manuscript before hiring acopy editor um
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
um whereas yeah as i mentioned before definitely the
big picture stuff so you've gotyour you know your your plot is
working there's no holes yourcharacters are all you know well
formed and uh three-dimensionaluh timing pace all those things
because if not basically itwould just be a waste of money
because if it's not alreadytight structurally any line
(15:53):
edits that an editor will makeat that point will probably end
up being redundant because theauthor at some point will have
to go back and fix all thatother big picture stuff so so
all that money is spent on onthe on the copy edit will be you
know at least probably 50percent lost so make sure you've
got yeah your big your bigstructural changes all done and
(16:15):
then then you can hand it over
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Very good.
And what about like working withpotential client?
Like you're an editor, right?
But do you edit certain genres?
Do you like to sit down and talkto the actual writer before, you
know, getting into it?
What are like red flags for you?
What are some of the hardpasses?
Like, I don't know, like, shouldit be like, I don't know, a
dating app, you know, where youkind of like, we talk to each
(16:40):
other a little bit and you'relike, well, you might not be for
me and I might not be for you.
So maybe you need to find likeanother one or do you just take
anything and everything?
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
Well, you hit the nail on the head really.
For me, it's the dating appanalogy.
There has to be, yeah, you haveto basically get on well, I
think.
And be, I was going to say onthe same page, coming up with
all these puns I didn't know Ihad in my head.
But yeah, there has to be,feeling that you can work well
(17:11):
together in in a nutshell so ummy i was thinking earlier it's a
bit like therapists have theirown have their own therapists so
i'm i'm an editor but i alsohave my own editor for my own
work so i understand like howemotional the process can be and
and i feel apprehensive everytime i send something to to my
(17:31):
editor because I think it'shuman really, or, or at least
for writers that we, we secretlyjust want the editor to come
back and say, do you know what?
Absolutely perfect.
Don't change a word.
I think that's like the, youknow, it's equally what we want
to hear, but that's, you know,just isn't how it works.
Not even for the so-calledgeniuses.
So all that to say, like, I, Iunderstand that it's, it's a
(17:56):
very vulnerable process.
So yeah, I understand that, butat the same time, I want to work
with somebody who is open tosuggestions, who wants to work
collaboratively and make it arewarding experience for the
author to see their work go fromone thing to another.
I'm not saying that it comes tome or anyone in a bad way, but
(18:20):
you see how you can just make itshine, basically.
someone somebody that I workwith would would really have to
be open to that and I know itsounds kind of obvious but there
are people that are veryresistant to all the suggestions
that they have hired you to makeso yeah I just I would want to
work with somebody who sees thatum the value in that
(18:41):
collaborative relationshipversus like it's it's me versus
you it's writer versus editorkind of thing
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
I love that, a team
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
collaboration.
SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So when an author sends you amanuscript, what is it like?
Are you getting out your big redmarker and you're like, this is
terrible, I don't want to dothis?
Or should there be like, authorsends you a manuscript, leaves
you alone for a little bit, letsyou kind of digest it?
(19:12):
and then come back.
And then when you do come back,if that's the process, like,
should it be like a little bitback and forth?
Like, how does that work?
Like, how does thateditor-writer relationship
supposed to kind of work?
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
Yeah.
Another great question.
I do personally try not toimpose too much structure on
that because every author andevery manuscript will be
different and have differentneeds.
So it's better to let the personand the words dictate the system
that you'll use versus the otherway around.
But it is obviously verynecessary and useful to have a
(19:48):
way of working.
So the way I work, and I thinkmost editors work, is you have
sort of a pre-conversation.
So the author will come to youand let them know, obviously,
about the story and themanuscript itself, what they're
looking for.
because as we discussed with theterminology, sometimes, and it's
(20:08):
obviously perfectly normal, anauthor might come to you and
say, I want you to edit mymanuscript, but not realize, or
maybe not know, you know, thedifferent levels and terminology
and stuff.
So you just, you know, you mightask what stage are you at?
How many drafts have you done?
That kind of thing, an outline,not a pitch exactly, but you
know, a summary of what thestory is.
(20:29):
Some editors do a sample edit,but yeah, which is a good idea
too for both the author and theeditor to get to know each
other's working style.
But in my experience, generallyafter that preliminary
conversation, I'll just jumpright in to the manuscript and
go through, yeah, do my thing,send it back to the author.
(20:49):
So for me, that generally lookslike margin comments plus an
editorial letter.
So sometimes, so the editorialletter is a little bit more
touching on the structuralstuff.
So yeah, kind of things that younotice that you don't exactly
want to point out on aline-by-line level, but more
generally over the manuscript,you've noticed, like, I don't
(21:09):
know, a manuscript I worked onrecently, a sense of place
wasn't really coming through,yet it was actually very
important to the story.
So, like, just to say generallydevelop sense of place, not
obviously that, with a bit moredetail than that, you know,
that's the kind of thing I wouldput in the letter, and then
margin comments to support that.
(21:29):
And then after that, send itback, either we might have a
call like this, you know, like avideo call to discuss it or I
might do another round after theauthor has gone through my
original comments and then I'lldo another round with them
another call so it depends alsodepends on the length because I
edited a novella recently whichwas 16,000 words so that was
(21:52):
quite easy to just go back andforth a few times but Then I
also recently did an 80,000 wordmanuscript.
So that's a little bitdifferent.
You can't really just like pingback and forth on 80,000 words.
So yeah, generally it'd be around of edits and a call or a
couple of round of edits and acall.
SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
Very nice.
Awesome.
That's very, very good to know.
Just knowing that there shouldbe a little bit of back and
forth, but giving you time toget through it before you're
coming back.
And then also taking intoaccount the size of the
manuscript.
That's extremely important aswell.
All right.
So let's talk about how do youpreserve an author's voice while
(22:34):
editing their work?
Like we've done it.
I know people are maybe a littlebit apprehensive about, you
know, hiring an editor.
They're going to change my wholestory.
That's not what I want to say,but like, how do you, how do you
preserve that?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
It's yeah.
It's I love this question again,because I think probably every,
every editor me included wouldsay that was, you know,
absolutely essential, but it isalso really hard not to let your
own voice sneak in, especiallyif you're also a writer.
So I think the best way topreserve the editor's voice is
(23:09):
to make sure you get to knowthat voice before you begin.
So again, if it's somethingshort, like the novella I
mentioned, you could read thewhole thing before you make any
comments and just immerseyourself in that work.
or if it's longer, read a fewchapters before you go in and
start making edits.
(23:30):
So yeah, it's something you haveto be constantly aware of, I
think.
But the best way is just to tryand immerse yourself and block
out your own kind of aestheticpreferences.
Very
SPEAKER_02 (23:44):
good.
That has to be hard.
I just don't know if I couldever be like an editor.
You're just like, you guys areso patient and able to do that
and tune it all out.
I don't know if I could do that,but that's great.
I'm sure you could.
What about a style guide?
Now, I know you're based inMadrid.
Maybe I know like Europeaneditors may work a little bit
(24:07):
different if you're working withwriters that are, you know,
across the pond, we say, orlike, versus like an author in
the US, but like, do you have aspecific style guide that you
follow?
Like whether it's the Chicagomanual style, AP style, any,
like what, how do you do that?
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
Yeah, my, I've always used just personally as a
frame of reference to the MLAsystem, but obviously the best
way to, to check is to checkwith the author what, either
what they're using or whatthey're doing sort of naturally
so whatever is closest to howthey kind of write naturally if
that makes sense like um justrecently I was working on two
(24:46):
manuscripts and one was from aUS author and they were using
the serial comma and one wasfrom a European author and they
weren't using the serial commaso I was like okay I have to get
my head you know like in thissystem or in that system so as a
as a frame of reference formyself I like MLA but um Yes,
(25:06):
just a bit like the voice thing,really.
You have to get into themanuscript and see what's the
best system to fit, basically.
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
Very nice.
SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
Because none of them are wrong or right.
It's just whichever one you wantto use and keep using
consistently.
That's the kind of, like wementioned with copyediting,
that's the purpose of it, tokeep it all consistent.
Very good.
SPEAKER_02 (25:31):
Awesome.
And then how do you navigatethrough edits that are, they're
technically they're correct, butthey may not fit the author's
tone.
Like, how do you know this?
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
How do I know if it's correct or how do I know
which way to go?
Both, I guess.
Yeah.
Well, again, maybe because I amalso a writer, I would probably
naturally err on the side oftone versus correctness, which
might be controversial as aneditor, I don't know.
But that would be something Iwould highlight to the author
(26:06):
via a margin comment.
So something along the lines of,you know, I really like what
you've done here.
It's not, you know, strictlyspeaking correct this is the way
you would say it correctly kindof you know your call really um
because again like there areauthors that that will want
grammatical accuracy overeverything else you know that's
(26:28):
why they've hired you but thenthere are also authors that that
want uh well the opposite theywant their their voice and their
tone to come to come over morestrongly.
So one of the authors I've beenworking with recently, she, in
the nicest possible way, we havethis great back and forth, but
she always pushes back, like, Iknow what you're saying.
(26:49):
I know you're right, but itdoesn't feel right for my
writing.
And I'm like, great.
You do whatever you feel isbest, you know?
So maybe it's a little bit likebatting the ball back over, but
I would give the author theoptions and then say, you know,
your final call, basically, ifyou want to be, you know, very
very accurate do it this way ifyou want to be if you want to be
(27:12):
you do it
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
this way that is super important and you just
like brought up another likereally really good point um
we're you know I'm a writeryou're a writer we have editors
but ultimately like we we havethe final say obviously like you
know you're you're an editor andyou're making these suggestions
based on your you know knowledgeyour expertise and but we don't
(27:38):
have to necessarily doeverything that you're asking us
to do, right?
Like that's kind of the wholepoint, you know, you're making
the suggestions, trying to makeit, you know, help make the
writer's, you know, voice reallycome through, but ultimately we
can make that final decision,right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Oh yeah, absolutely, 100%.
And I'm glad you brought that upbecause I usually lead with that
actually.
You know, like we're here toadvise, we're here to, you know,
bounce ideas off, butAbsolutely.
The author has the last wordevery time.
Definitely.
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
Awesome.
All right.
We've made it to the Inkstarterlightning round.
I am so excited for this.
We're going to do like three,no, four quick questions that I
have for you.
And so let's go.
All right.
So what's your favorite editingtool or software?
SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
I might have mentioned earlier, I'm very
analog, so I don't use anysoftware, just word, track
changes, margin comments.
I have dabbled with, I thinksomeone gave me a free trial to
Scrivener and I was like, yeah,it's cool, but I can just do
this by doing my old school,putting the pages on the floor.
(28:47):
So that's just me.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
No, I'm the same way.
I print everything out.
I feel bad for the trees, but Ihave to like physically hold it
and do it.
So that's good.
What's one grammar myth you wishwould just disappear?
SPEAKER_00 (29:05):
The one about, I'm not sure the correct name of it
is, but starting a sentencewith, and, but, though, sorry,
not though, and, but, so, orbecause that, that thing, it's
just, no, just start thesentence.
how you want to start it.
Sorry if that's controversial,but yeah, just get rid of that
one.
(29:25):
Because sometimes it can changethe whole tone of the paragraph.
So start your sentence howeveryou like.
I
SPEAKER_02 (29:33):
love it.
All right.
While you're editing, coffee,tea or wine, which one are you
drinking when you're editing?
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
Because I'm in Madrid, it gets very hot in the
summer.
So it depends.
And very cold in the winter,actually.
So it depends on the season.
Always, always, always start themorning with coffee.
And I have to have that, like,you know, as soon as I wake up.
So always coffee.
And then throughout the day, itsounds really...
you know, not at all shocking,but my new addiction is ginger
(30:03):
tea.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
Oh, I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
But then if it's really hot, I might have fizzy
water.
So yeah.
And then wine for the evening,but after do the working days
then.
SPEAKER_02 (30:16):
Totally get it.
All right.
And my last one, em dashes.
All right.
Is this writer's fashion fauxpas or is this totally on trend
that we're using the em dashes?
SPEAKER_00 (30:28):
Is this the editing version of the mullet?
For
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
sure.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
This is, you know, you kind of, this is a very
controversial question.
So I like them in my own writinganyway, but I think that's
probably because I'm quite,possibly a little bit meandering
like I go off in differentdirections and they're they're
quite helpful if you want tojust take something off in a
different direction momentarilyand I think maybe it imitates
(30:59):
more using an em dash is helpfulfor imitating how we speak and
and yeah how we kind of interactmore in a more natural setting
but I do understand that it'sbecome kind of a catch-all for
lots of other differentpunctuation that we have
invented for that specificreason.
So it's kind of taking the placeof lots of other punctuation.
(31:22):
So yeah.
Yeah, I'm going to stay on thefence because I don't want to
keep males.
I love it.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (31:30):
my gosh.
All
SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
right, Jane,
SPEAKER_02 (31:32):
you've made it through the Grand Inquisition.
And now it is time.
You have prepared five must-havetips for us authors.
I can't wait to hear yours.
So give it to me.
What are your five must-havetips?
SPEAKER_03 (31:45):
Yay.
SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
Well, I'm very excited to share these.
So I put them in order of how Ido them.
But as we just mentionedearlier, it's up to the author,
you know, however it feelsnatural to you, the author's
writing process.
But this is the way I would doit.
So number one, make your ownstyle guide.
So a little bit like yourquestion previously about MLA
(32:06):
and Chicago and all thosethings.
So every publishing house willhave an in-house style guide for
consistency and professionalism.
And I say, there's no reason whywe can't have, you know, the
same.
So yeah, Keep things consistentand smooth in your manuscript.
Think about are you going to useo'clock or are you going to use
a.m., p.m.?
If you're using a.m., p.m., areyou going to use a, you know,
(32:30):
what is it in American English,period, m, period, or learned or
learnt, serial comma, no serialcomma, single speech marks,
double speech marks, that kindof thing.
So It's good if you want tochoose a system to follow as
well, but also I think it'shandy to make some notes, you
know, to follow as you're goingthrough.
(32:51):
So the main things that mightcome up so that you can say, oh,
hang on.
Yeah, am I using Learned?
Can't remember.
Where's my style guide?
That kind of thing.
So that just, you know, it mightseem...
picky I don't know but it justmakes the manuscript and the
writing a lot smoother and moreand more professional in the
same way that um would happenwithin a you know a big five or
(33:13):
something like that publishinghouse so number one make your
own style guide uh number twothis is one that I think is fun
which is to scan for inactiveverbs because we all we all do
it So to make your writing moredynamic and compelling on that
line level that we talked about,scan for inactive verbs and
(33:34):
think about how you can replacethem.
You don't always have to replacethem.
I think just we all have atendency to use think, feel,
look, sound, believe, becausethat's probably because that's
how we speak.
So sometimes it's necessary andgood to use those, but other
times, you know, you can swapthem out and have a think about
how you can rewrite them in amore kind of interesting way.
(33:57):
So I made some not verybrilliant examples here.
So instead of, for example, shethought about what he said and
felt sad every time she did youcould say something like their
conversation echoed in her headover the next few days and she
became more discouraged eachtime she remembered his words
(34:19):
you know that kind of you know Ilove that thank you so you take
out thought said feel and youjust restructure that sentence
or also with feelings likeinstead of saying a character
felt you know and then you addthe emotion you can often
rewrite those so like I insteadof I felt angry you could say
(34:42):
the anger turned my face ablotchy red my hands began to
tremble that was my otherexample so this is why I think
it's fun because you canliterally do a search in word
you know like for for thespecific words so like think
feel etc and then you can go andfind them each time and just
have some fun, like seeing howyou can rewrite those.
(35:04):
So yeah, scan for inactive verbsand rewrite if you want to.
And kind of related to that one,my third one is where can you
add texture?
So yeah, a little bit likenumber two, if you have...
I don't know, this is, again,not the best example, but if,
say, the story is set by theseaside or there's a kind of a
(35:26):
theme of water, where can youjust subtly thread that through
on a line level to reinforcethat, you know, even
subconsciously in the reader?
So this, again, is just my,like, kind of not the most
overworked examples, but insteadof she cried, you could have her
tears surging and crashingagain.
and like waves or, you know, orimplying that it's like waves.
(35:49):
So, you know, just go throughand add those little extra bits
of texture in the semanticfields.
I think that's another fun onepersonally.
And number four is read aloud.
And it's kind of obvious, butabsolutely essential because a
bit like the same as printingout and editing, it's amazing,
(36:10):
as I'm sure you know, howdifferent the experience of your
writing is when you read italoud.
And that one is particularlygood for checking your
punctuation as well, becauseyou'll stumble over anything
that's in the wrong place.
If it's like a really longdocument, sometimes for my own
writing, I'll get word to readit to me.
I don't know if you've ever usedthat automatic voice in Word.
(36:32):
I've just heard about that, butI haven't used it yet.
Sometimes I do both because thegood thing about the kind of
automatic voice is that it hasno emotion whatsoever and it has
no investment in your writing.
So you hear it reallydispassionately and that's kind
of oddly helpful because you cansee where the voice stumbles or,
(36:52):
yeah, I don't know, it kind ofgives you that distant eyes
thing, but distant ears.
UNKNOWN (36:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
uh so yeah always read aloud either yourself or or
word and then the fifth onewhich is probably the most
important is to pace yourselfbecause um it's just you know if
you think about those are myfive tips or four tips for for
line editing and then you thinkabout all the other tips for
development editing and proofinglike it it gets overwhelming so
(37:20):
pace yourself my As aprofessional editor, my absolute
maximum for a line level is 30pages a day.
And that's like 1.5 or doublespaced in Word because your
brain just stops seeing thingsin the end.
So you really do need to giveyourself time and space for the
process.
And the other thing is, if not,you just end up rushing it to
(37:44):
get over with.
So when you're in the writingprocess, it's good to schedule
that in.
So like, I don't know, just sayto yourself, right, you know,
I'm going to finish editing.
I'm going to finish writing byJuly.
And then I'm going to givemyself a whole month.
And I'm going to do this amountof pages a day or however long
it might take.
So slice the elephant,basically.
SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
I love it.
I love it.
Those are fabulous tips.
I am definitely going to betaking those into my own writing
because some of them I haven'tused.
I love the reading with the wordfor sure and the style.
I love that too.
That's something I don't think Ieven considered.
Just think about what style youwant to use and all that.
(38:25):
This has been one of the funnestconversations.
It's been so much fun.
I have really enjoyed our timetogether.
I thank you so much.
for joining us today on the showand having fun with me and
sharing this process of copyediting and giving us your five
must-have tips.
So if you're interested inlearning more about Jane
(38:46):
Marshall's editing services orcheck out her latest release
because she has a brand new bookherself coming out, check the
show notes for her website, herSubstack publication, and places
you can purchase her books.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Traditionally
Self-Published.
If this And be sure to check thefirst episode where I share a
(39:12):
bit about how this all came tobe and why building a helpful
community is so important.
Until next time, be bold, writesmart, and keep turning those
pages.
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