September 7, 2025 • 27 mins
"Don't let your plot happen to your character."
In this episode, we are sitting down with a developmental editor to talk through developmental editing. By the end of this episode, you will understand who they are and their critical role in your self-publishing journey. We covered story structure, plot, pacing and character arc and ways for an indie author to get the various parts of editing done on a budget. At the end, Nicole leaves us with five actionable tips that you can do right now to help elevate your writing.
Nicole Meier is a certified book coach, developmental editor, and author of four novels. Her books have been recognized by Booklist, Refinery29, BookBub, and Popsugar. She is the host of The Whole Writer podcast for emerging authors and co-founder of bookworks.co. Nicole lives and works in the Pacific Northwest and can be found at:
- Website: nicolemeier.com
- Substack: https://nicolemeierwrites.substack.com
Have a publishing question? Email me at mica@micamerrillrice.com
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Website: micamerrillrice.com
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"Traditionally Self-Published" theme music is written by Landon Bailey and performed and produced by LNDÖ
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
What's up, plot twisters, and a warm welcome to
my page turners, the intriguedreaders and listeners who are
just stepping into the story.
Whatever title you fancy today,I am so happy you're here with
us.
You're listening toTraditionally Self-Published,
where we unravel the chaos ofself-publishing and help you
(00:23):
write your own success storylike a pro.
I'm your host, MikaMerrill-Rice, author with a
passion for learning and sharingthe love.
I'm bringing you real talk withpublishing pros and indie
authors, just like me, whoflipped the script and built
thriving author careers on theirown terms and are doing it like
a pro.
Whether you're rewriting yourthird novel or still plotting
(00:45):
your first, you're right whereyou need to be.
This episode is part of myinaugural back to school series
and covers editing 101.
Today we are exploring allthings developmental editing.
what it is, when you need it,and why it's so important.
If you want to make this bookshine instead of fading into the
background, this episode is foryou.
(01:07):
I am joined today by thetalented Nicole Meyer, an
author, professionaldevelopmental editor, and book
coach.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe role of the developmental
editor, the importance ofcrafting a strong story, and
advice for hiring adevelopmental editor.
And then we're going to concludewith the Inkstarter lightning
(01:28):
round and the Nicole's five besttips for authors.
All right, students, class is insession.
Hello, Nicole.
I hope you're doing well today.
This is so fun.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you so much for joining.
I'm really excited about this.
So let's start with a little bitabout you.
So tell me, how did you get intothe editing business?
(01:50):
And what kind of what types ofediting do you do?
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
Yeah.
So I do developmental editing.
I'm a certified book coach.
And before that, in my previouscreative life, I was an author.
And I always had this thing inthe back of my head thinking,
there's something missing fromthe process.
I had...
You know, my writing friends, Ihad, you know, writers
association I belong to, I hadan agent, I had different
(02:14):
publishers, but I always feltlike there was something missing
that I wanted in terms of asupport system for my own
writing.
And so over the pandemic, asmany of us did, I sort of did a
pivot.
And I got certified to be a bookcoach, and I started working
with emerging authors.
And it was right at that niceVenn diagram, if you can believe
(02:37):
it or not, of being a writer,but also seeking something out
and then being trained as anexpert in something that it
clicked for me.
And I met writers and startedhelping them strengthen their
manuscripts.
I thought, ah, this is what Iwas missing the whole time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
That is awesome.
I love it.
Oh my gosh, that has to be somuch fun.
And you probably meet like a tonof people in the process.
SPEAKER_01 (02:59):
I do.
And it's really fun to see allthe different genres and the
different sources ofinspiration.
It's kind of a never endingwell.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Yeah, for sure.
Awesome.
What do you love most about, youknow, what you do?
You do a lot of things, but whatis your favorite part?
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
You know, my favorite part, it's always fun
to be surprised.
And when I say that is we allstart with that messy first or
second draft.
And that part's not surprisingwhen I meet a writer that says,
oh my gosh, I just have thismess, but I know I want to make
something of it.
I love the surprise feeling whenwe work together for a few
sessions and I do inline editsand we talk about strategy and
(03:35):
next steps and they understandthe assignment and they come
back to me with these reallystrong pages.
It's the best feeling becauseIt's like, oh, they get it and
they're on their way.
And I'm so happy to be a part ofthis.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
That is awesome.
I love it.
I love it.
Yes, I love the aha moments.
I can assure you right now I amnot having that.
I am deep in one and a halfdraft.
I'll say that.
Oh, man.
That's relatable.
Yes, for sure.
All right.
So talk to me a little bit aboutdevelopmental editing versus
copy editing when it comes tohiring an editor.
(04:10):
So these are two different.
slightly different.
Oh, actually they're pretty bigdifferences, but like, do you
hire one editor for both ofthem?
Or do you say, all right, you'regoing to do developmental
editing for me, or that's whatI'm requesting of you.
And you're going to hire anotherperson for a copy editor.
Like, how does it work?
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
Yes.
So you could have one in thesame, but that's very rare.
You really want to get someonewho specializes in one thing or
another.
And it's hard to do both becauseyou as a developmental editor
want to focus on storystructure.
So when I'm looking at someone'smanuscript pages, I'm looking
for...
pacing, plot, characterdevelopment, believability,
repetition, narrative drive.
(04:55):
I'm looking for all of that goodsort of foundational work that
builds a story.
And for a copy editor, they'regoing to kind of come in much
later in the process.
And they're going to look atthings like sentence structure,
grammar, A little bit ofproofreading, although
proofreaders are their own jobin itself, but really it's
something that is verydifferent.
(05:16):
And yes, you could find someonethat could do both, but you
don't want to split focus.
So if I had a very roughmanuscript and I wanted some
developmental edits, I want tolook at the structure, even know
if I'm headed in the rightdirection.
I don't want someone focused soearly on on, oh, this is a
grammar mistake or this sentencestructure could be strengthened.
You want them focused on thestructure because that's what
(05:38):
we're after is reallystrengthening our story.
Great.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
That's awesome.
And very good to know because Iwas under the impression that
they should all be one.
So it's good for people to knowthat they are two very distinct
processes and it's good to havethose two.
And then you mentionedproofreading, which I haven't
really touched on at all.
Do you recommend all three?
Do you recommend that a writertry to go through all three?
(06:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
You know, it depends on the publishing path they
choose.
Certainly, if you go with atraditional house, they will
have those people set in placefor you.
And you'll see there's a timeand a place, right?
The copy editor comes way beforethe proofreader.
But if you're doing indie, Ithink that you really want to
get the most bang for your buck.
So I would say, and I'm jadedbecause this is not impartial.
(06:28):
So I am an editor, but I wouldreally think about investing in
the story structure help first,and then maybe find a friend or,
you know, a referral of somebodywho says, you know what, I'm
pretty good at both copy editingand catching errors.
And they can kind of give you atwo for one.
That's, that's more realistic tofind, in my opinion.
(06:50):
And there's actually a lot ofpeople who really have fun with
it.
They enjoy copy editing, theyenjoy proofreading.
You know, some of our friends,probably in our book clubs, our
neighbors, our streets, theywould love to proofread.
There's a That's
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
great.
I hadn't thought about that.
I love that creativity forfinding somebody on a budget.
I like it.
Yes.
Awesome.
All right.
So let's talk aboutcollaboration between the author
and editor.
So now we know what adevelopmental editor is.
What's a typical workflow whensomeone hires you?
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Yeah, so it's kind of different depending on where
that writer is in their process.
Some people come to me and say,I just have three chapters.
I need to know if I'm evenstarting right because I don't
want to spend the next ninemonths going in the wrong
direction.
Some people come to me with thefirst half of the book, and some
people come to me with the fullmanuscript.
So it's really, we call it apartial developmental edit or a
(07:47):
full developmental edit.
I love doing it all.
And what happens when they cometo me is we have a
questionnaire.
I want to make sure I know thepremise of the story, the
intentions that the writer has,how they want to make the reader
feel by the time they reach theend.
It's really good to know all ofthese.
And trust me, there's plenty ofeditors out there who don't ask
these questions.
(08:07):
So to anyone listening, makesure you find someone who feels
very interested in your storyand they feel aligned with the
genre you're writing.
If I was writing rom-com, Iwouldn't pick someone that has
only done sci-fi books, to beexample.
So they would do aquestionnaire.
We talk about the story and thenthey send me their pages.
I go away and do my thing.
(08:27):
And really for me, that's a deepdive.
So I spend a lot of time witheach page.
I'm leaving comments in themargins of everything from, do
we see a scene goal in everychapter?
Am I seeing characterinteriority?
Do we have narrative drive,which is kind of, if this
happens, then what happens next?
Do we have good dialogue?
(08:48):
Is there too much exposition?
How's the pacing?
How's the setting?
And I really kind of leavecomments.
And I love to leave bothpositive and negative.
negative comments.
When I say negative, it's justareas to strengthen because I
don't think a good editor shouldbe just red penning it where you
just get all the negative thingsin the margins.
You don't want that because youwant to be able to feel like you
(09:10):
can come back to your revisionsfeeling fueled and energized and
motivated.
I like to point out what they'vedone really well because every
writer has something they can dowell.
Then I like to point out thingsthat could use strengthening.
I do all that.
I write in the margins of everysingle page.
I return it via email to thewriter and then we get together
(09:31):
on Zoom and we have like an hourconversation about all of the
feedback, all the questions.
We kind of strategize whatrevisions might look like and it
really empowers the writer to gooff and do it on their own.
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
That's great.
So you spoke about two differentways to do developmental
editing.
So you talked about a little bitabout like the halfway mark
editing and then also like afull manuscript.
So When in the process, likelet's talk about the halfway
point.
When you do a halfway point,because this is something I've
never heard of before.
(10:05):
When you do halfway point as awriter, do we like write to the
half point, make it shine andthen send it to you?
You know how like with a fullmanuscript, we sort of do some
self editing before we send itout.
Obviously, we're not going tosend you, you know, a script
that has not been read, but isthe same process kind of applied
towards that midway edit?
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
A little bit.
I've even done this myself as anauthor is I've always worked
with a developmental editor onmy end as well for my books.
And I have in the past said,here's the first hundred pages.
Can you just tell me if I'm onthe right track?
And what that means is, am Imeeting genre expectations?
Is there a clear narrativedrive?
Do we understand what thecharacter wants?
(10:49):
What's standing in their way?
How they think they're going togo about getting it?
and all of the other charactersat play.
And if an editor sends it backand says, I don't know where to
place my focus.
You got way too many thingsgoing on.
I call it the kitchen sinksyndrome where people just keep
throwing in subplot aftersubplot.
And it really helps the writersay, okay, I need to focus.
(11:09):
I need to maybe edit out amillion subplots or I need to
bring in way more charactermotivation, whatever it is,
because what you don't want todo if you're unsure, depends on
really how seasoned you are as awriter, you don't want to get
all the way to the end and havethese hair pulling iterations of
having to rip everything apartand start over.
So Again, it depends on knowyourself as a writer.
(11:33):
Do I have that little red flagkind of flickering in my head
that I keep ignoring, but I knowI shouldn't, that something's
not quite laying together withthe story?
Then yeah, get a partial edit,get the feedback.
It's really fun to know, havesomeone else point out your
strengths and weaknesses, andthen you can sort of strengthen
that first half and just writeforward for the second half.
(11:54):
That's
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
great.
That is really good advice.
Thank you.
Yeah.
What about tough feedback?
So, you know, you mentioned likedoing your red pen in the
margins, you know, like, do youget tough on people?
Do you have sort of thatbalance?
Like you did mention that youhave like, you leave some
positive and maybe some likeconstructive feedback.
(12:16):
But if you know, like, if youknow the story is just not maybe
that great, how do you give thatfeedback and kind of lead them
towards like, maybe if you didthis, it would be a little bit
better or whatnot.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll give you a pastwriter I worked with as an
example.
This person really held me onthe surface for the entire book.
I never could figure out whatthe character was feeling or
thinking.
I could never figure out whatwas motivating them to say or do
what they were doing.
And to me, the whole book fellflat because of it.
And so what I said to thatwriter after I went through each
(12:52):
page is I said, I'm being heldat arm's length.
As your reader, I want somethingto root for.
I want something to connect to.
I want to have empathy for yourcharacter.
And the only way to do that isto go back and add a lot more
interiority.
And here's how and here's where.
So it was really instead of mesaying, hey, look, this book
doesn't work.
(13:12):
I could care less about thecharacter.
I said what I would love to seeinstead And that helps someone
really have actionable nextsteps as opposed to this sort of
vague feedback of, yeah, itdidn't work for me.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
That's great.
I love that.
I love that you don't give up onus so easily.
We've all been there, truly.
Yes.
All right.
Well, what about making a strongstory?
What are some common storyissues that you might see in an
indie manuscript?
And I don't know if it reallyvaries, you know, like there's a
(13:44):
difference between like an indiemanuscript and like maybe
somebody who's going to apublishing house.
Do you see some of those commonstory issues?
Are they a little bit different?
UNKNOWN (13:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Yeah, again, it depends on the author, but what
happens, and I'll speak for thismyself because I have two
traditional and two hybridbooks.
And with the books that arehybrid or self-published,
there's a tendency to lean intothe rushing of it all because
you know you have the power toput that book out whenever you
want.
And when you have that power,it's like, let's go fast.
(14:19):
So when your book is with atraditional, it you know,
publishing is glacial.
It takes forever in a day.
You have so many people touchingthe work and, you know, you have
time to really reflect oneverything.
So when it comes to indie, Iwill say sometimes I noticed
that writers rushed through theprocess and it's very obvious
(14:39):
that they did not get a betareader, that they didn't seek
feedback, they didn't have aneditor, and they very well could
have.
Yes, sometimes it's aboutbudget, but you could also join
a writing group and trade pageswith friends.
And so I would just say, don'tlet the rushing be the downfall
of your great story because whatif you just waited three or four
(15:00):
more months to really getfeedback and address the
feedback?
It would be so much stronger.
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
That's a good, I love those points a lot.
And you brought up somethingelse that I had not thought of.
And that's the beta reader.
So we talk about like themanuscript, our own process of
self editing before we get readyfor an editor.
But do we want to send ourmanuscript to a beta reader
before we send it to the editor?
(15:26):
Or maybe after we send it to theeditor?
SPEAKER_01 (15:29):
Yeah, this is one of the most common questions that I
get asked.
And I will tell you my opinion.
A developmental editor isreading your book for structure.
A beta reader is reading yourbook for entertainment.
They will read it like a normalreader will read it.
So they're looking at whatthey're getting out of it.
They're looking if it feelssatisfying to them, a satisfying
(15:52):
arc of change, a fun character.
It's almost like they're lookingat how much they enjoyed it.
where an editor is saying, let'sreally look at your scene
structure, your story structure,your pacing, your plot, setting,
etc.
And they're really helping youbuild a stronger story.
So in my opinion, I always say,work with an editor first.
(16:13):
then beta readers come next.
And again, if you don't have thebudget, there are ways to go
around that.
There's plenty of people thatoffer partials that aren't as
expensive as you think.
There's contests, there'sgiveaways, there's all kinds of
ways to go about it.
But if you had a choice and youhad the freedom, I would do
editor first, beta readersecond.
SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
Awesome.
Great.
What about, okay, a potentialclient has come to you.
You have read their manuscriptor maybe you're in the process
of, and maybe there is a signthat that needs more structural
work.
I know we talked about it alittle bit, but what is like a
major red flag in one of yourmanuscripts that you've read
that you're like, okay, we gotto address this like right away.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
Yeah.
Not having a clear showing ofwhat the character wants, their
big wants.
why they want it, both on anexternal and internal level.
You know, I work with somepeople and say, well, they just
want the big job promotion.
Well, why?
Like internally, why is itimportant to them?
So show what they want, why theywant it, and then what's
(17:20):
standing in their way and howthey think they're going to go
about getting it.
You know, there's a lot of timesI see a manuscript where the
plot is happening to thecharacter and they're just sort
of reacting and bumbling along.
They don't have agency becausethey don't have anything like a
big want they're going after.
So I would say that's kind ofthe biggest thing I see is don't
let your plot happen to yourcharacter.
(17:40):
I
SPEAKER_00 (17:41):
love that.
Excellent.
It's a good way.
It's a good thing to keep in theback of the mind when we're kind
of working our way through this.
SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Awesome.
So how do you help authorsstrengthen things like character
arcs or pacing?
Like what are your words maybethat you use or I don't know,
how do you kind of show theauthor like how to get through
those things or explain it?
SPEAKER_01 (18:07):
Yeah.
Character arcs, I always love togo deeper.
I mean, I love readingcharacter-driven stories.
So interiority is something thatI will say time and again.
I'm probably on everyone'spages.
You can never have too much ofit.
So what that means is show acharacter's inner thought,
feeling, or reaction.
Don't do it with dialogue alone.
Don't do it with action alone orplot alone.
(18:29):
I want to know how things arelanding with your character.
I want to know how they'rereacting on the inside as well
as the outside.
So that's one thing.
And then you want to see themlearning lessons and evolving so
they're a different person bythe time the story reaches the
end.
It doesn't have to be a happilyever after, but we want to see
them evolved and have newinsights on the world around
(18:50):
them.
So that's one way.
And then your other question waspacing, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Yes, pacing, big
SPEAKER_01 (18:56):
one.
Pacing, right?
Yes.
So there are certain thingsthat, slow down pacing.
One is exposition.
If someone goes to a large swathof backstory, it's like three
pages of backstory that's reallyslowed your pacing.
Another thing I call treadingwater, where we see your
character just staying one placeforever.
They're not doing anything tomove through the scene.
(19:17):
So use the scene to move themforward.
Yes, they want something thatthey're going after, but show
them moving through the room andshow that setting.
Show them interacting withanother character and how it's
landing with them.
Show them making decisions,which means having agency.
And I like to use this formulaif you really want to get the
(19:39):
pacing going, is if yourcharacter has decision followed
by an action followed by aconsequence.
And you can put that on repeat,decision, action, consequence,
decision, action, consequence.
That will really get your pacinggoing faster.
SPEAKER_00 (19:54):
I love it.
Excellent.
I love all this advice.
Oh my goodness.
So many great things out ofthis.
All right.
So moving on to revision.
So how many rounds ofdevelopmental editing do most
authors need?
Like, is it one and we're justkind of going back and forth for
a little bit?
Is it, I need a developmentaleditor midway.
(20:16):
I need another one at the end.
Is it, you know, like constantlyhiring?
I will let you answer.
I have my opinion about this,but go ahead.
Oh, I want to hear your opinion.
Oh, no, I just, I assume, okay,this is what I think, that you
would need it, you could eitherdo the midpoint, of course, but
if I gave a full manuscript atthe end, I would assume that
(20:39):
some kind of timeline isestablished, and we're going to
say, like, okay, we're going todo this for one month, this is a
one-month project, I am going togo through edits and provide you
feedback maybe weekly, or maybebi-weekly, I don't And so I
guess that's kind of what I'mwondering, like, is it one
(20:59):
project that just kind of inthis little time gap or do you
need to do it several differenttimes?
SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
Yeah, I think you're totally right with that.
So I have clients, I'll just usemy own clients as example.
I have some clients that send me25 pages every two weeks and we
just keep a steady clip ofmoving forward.
I edit those pages, send themback.
They send me a fresh submission.
We keep going until the book isdone.
And then I have people that sendme the whole manuscript and I'll
read all of that and I'll do adeep dive with notes.
(21:30):
We have a call and I trust themunless they have questions to
understand my notes enough to goback and work on their own.
And really they don't come backto me for another developmental
edit unless they're feeling sounsure about themselves but
honestly a good editor should beexplaining it clearly enough so
that you can take it away and goon your own
SPEAKER_00 (21:50):
great that's good to know I love that And what advice
do you give authors who feeloverwhelmed?
Maybe they just got their firstedit back.
There's a ton of information.
I am sure that you probably notonly do like maybe track
changes, but maybe you also likewrite a letter on the side and
kind of explain things along theway.
(22:12):
But what advice do you sort ofgive them when you're giving
this edited manuscript back?
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
Yeah.
Number one, even the mostseasoned of writers gets a lot
of feedback.
So this writer's not alone.
And number two is I have seensome of the messiest drafts turn
into beautiful gems at theoutset.
So anyone can achieve it as longas they really, really put the
(22:40):
work in.
I personally go through a lot ofrange of emotions.
When I get feedback, it's like,That's good to know.
Yeah.
Very good to know.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
All right, Nicole, we have made it to the Ink
Starter lightning round.
So I'm going to ask you fourdifferent questions, and you're
just going to quickly answerwhatever comes to mind.
So you mentioned you are also awriter.
What kind are you?
Are you a plotter, a pantser, ora planser?
(23:27):
Both.
I
SPEAKER_01 (23:28):
did pantser for the first book, which is super fun.
But then I wound up plotting thenext ones because I was on
contract with a publisher and Iwas forced to show them my
outline.
So
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
I'm both.
I guess I'm a plantser.
Okay, a plancer.
I love it.
And did you prefer that over theplotting?
Or do you prefer like kind ofhaving that flexibility between
the boat with between the two ofthem?
I
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
really like the flexibility.
I love making discoveries alongthe way.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
yeah, I totally agree.
All right.
What is one book you wish youcould have edited?
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
Oh man.
Is this because I love the bookor because it needs editing?
I
SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
would say, let's say because you love the book.
SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
Okay.
So I have a writer friend, AmyPapel, who wrote a book that
just came out called Far andAway.
And I loved it so much that I,she certainly doesn't need my
help, but I wish I could havebeen involved in.
It was about two families fromother countries that swap
houses.
And I just loved it so much.
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
Oh my goodness.
I'm gonna have to look that oneup.
I love that.
Okay.
Because I'm a big holidayperson.
and, you know, they were likeswapping houses.
So that is right up my alley.
All right.
What snacks are you bringing tothe editing session?
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (24:42):
I have snacks here because I always have food on my
desk.
So these are crackers, GoodThins crackers.
SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
Love it.
I love it.
All right.
And what is one actionable tipthat writers can do right now,
like right after this episodethat is going to help improve
their manuscript?
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
Yeah.
Let's go back to that formulathat I mentioned before is
decision, action, consequence.
If you can follow that in yourscenes, I bet you you'll find
ways to move them forwardbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
Awesome.
I love it.
I am definitely taking that formy own and I hope I can deliver.
Nice.
All right.
Five tips.
We are here.
You are going to give us yourfive best tips for us authors.
SPEAKER_01 (25:28):
Oh my gosh.
I think the very first one ismindset.
Just know that tenacity mostoften wins over talent.
As long as you keep showing upto the page, you're already
winning.
So I would say that's the firstone.
The second one is make sure youunderstand what your character
is after and why.
(25:49):
The next one is...
Make sure to find a trustedwriter friend or writer group
who you feel comfortable with.
Sometimes it takes a minute tofind your people and see if they
might want to gather, support,or trade pages.
The next one is in your freetime, even if you're watching TV
(26:09):
at the same time, do research.
Research books in your genre.
Research agents, editors, indiepublishers, anybody in your
genre because knowledge ispower.
And then I have a fifth one,right?
One more.
Never stop learning.
This industry changes on a dime.
(26:29):
And what I came into in theindustry in 2014 is wildly
different from it is now.
So just keep on, you know,subscribing to those newsletters
to keep learning about theindustry.
And again, knowledge is power.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Awesome.
I love it.
I love your tips.
Everything about today.
Nicole, thank you so much forjoining today and having some
fun with me sharing this processof developmental editing because
I'm super passionate aboutgetting books edited, making
sure that we're doing it theright way.
And of course, for your fivemust have tips.
So if you're interested inlearning more about Nicole Myers
(27:05):
editing service and the book shehas written, you can check the
show notes for her website, herpublications and places you can
purchase her book.
Thank you, Nicole.
Thanks so much.
I loved it.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Traditionally
Self-Published.
If this episode helped yousubscribe, leave a review and
share with your author andreader friends like and be sure
(27:27):
to check the first episode whereI share a bit about how this all
came to be and why building ahelpful community is so
important.
Until next time, be bold, writesmart and keep turning those
pages.
What's up, plot twisters, and a warm welcome to
my page turners, the intriguedreaders and listeners who are
just stepping into the story.
Whatever title you fancy today,I am so happy you're here with
us.
You're listening toTraditionally Self-Published,
where we unravel the chaos ofself-publishing and help you
(00:23):
write your own success storylike a pro.
I'm your host, MikaMerrill-Rice, author with a
passion for learning and sharingthe love.
I'm bringing you real talk withpublishing pros and indie
authors, just like me, whoflipped the script and built
thriving author careers on theirown terms and are doing it like
a pro.
Whether you're rewriting yourthird novel or still plotting
(00:45):
your first, you're right whereyou need to be.
This episode is part of myinaugural back to school series
and covers editing 101.
Today we are exploring allthings developmental editing.
what it is, when you need it,and why it's so important.
If you want to make this bookshine instead of fading into the
background, this episode is foryou.
(01:07):
I am joined today by thetalented Nicole Meyer, an
author, professionaldevelopmental editor, and book
coach.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe role of the developmental
editor, the importance ofcrafting a strong story, and
advice for hiring adevelopmental editor.
And then we're going to concludewith the Inkstarter lightning
(01:28):
round and the Nicole's five besttips for authors.
All right, students, class is insession.
Hello, Nicole.
I hope you're doing well today.
This is so fun.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you so much for joining.
I'm really excited about this.
So let's start with a little bitabout you.
So tell me, how did you get intothe editing business?
(01:50):
And what kind of what types ofediting do you do?
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
Yeah.
So I do developmental editing.
I'm a certified book coach.
And before that, in my previouscreative life, I was an author.
And I always had this thing inthe back of my head thinking,
there's something missing fromthe process.
I had...
You know, my writing friends, Ihad, you know, writers
association I belong to, I hadan agent, I had different
(02:14):
publishers, but I always feltlike there was something missing
that I wanted in terms of asupport system for my own
writing.
And so over the pandemic, asmany of us did, I sort of did a
pivot.
And I got certified to be a bookcoach, and I started working
with emerging authors.
And it was right at that niceVenn diagram, if you can believe
(02:37):
it or not, of being a writer,but also seeking something out
and then being trained as anexpert in something that it
clicked for me.
And I met writers and startedhelping them strengthen their
manuscripts.
I thought, ah, this is what Iwas missing the whole time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
That is awesome.
I love it.
Oh my gosh, that has to be somuch fun.
And you probably meet like a tonof people in the process.
SPEAKER_01 (02:59):
I do.
And it's really fun to see allthe different genres and the
different sources ofinspiration.
It's kind of a never endingwell.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Yeah, for sure.
Awesome.
What do you love most about, youknow, what you do?
You do a lot of things, but whatis your favorite part?
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
You know, my favorite part, it's always fun
to be surprised.
And when I say that is we allstart with that messy first or
second draft.
And that part's not surprisingwhen I meet a writer that says,
oh my gosh, I just have thismess, but I know I want to make
something of it.
I love the surprise feeling whenwe work together for a few
sessions and I do inline editsand we talk about strategy and
(03:35):
next steps and they understandthe assignment and they come
back to me with these reallystrong pages.
It's the best feeling becauseIt's like, oh, they get it and
they're on their way.
And I'm so happy to be a part ofthis.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
That is awesome.
I love it.
I love it.
Yes, I love the aha moments.
I can assure you right now I amnot having that.
I am deep in one and a halfdraft.
I'll say that.
Oh, man.
That's relatable.
Yes, for sure.
All right.
So talk to me a little bit aboutdevelopmental editing versus
copy editing when it comes tohiring an editor.
(04:10):
So these are two different.
slightly different.
Oh, actually they're pretty bigdifferences, but like, do you
hire one editor for both ofthem?
Or do you say, all right, you'regoing to do developmental
editing for me, or that's whatI'm requesting of you.
And you're going to hire anotherperson for a copy editor.
Like, how does it work?
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
Yes.
So you could have one in thesame, but that's very rare.
You really want to get someonewho specializes in one thing or
another.
And it's hard to do both becauseyou as a developmental editor
want to focus on storystructure.
So when I'm looking at someone'smanuscript pages, I'm looking
for...
pacing, plot, characterdevelopment, believability,
repetition, narrative drive.
(04:55):
I'm looking for all of that goodsort of foundational work that
builds a story.
And for a copy editor, they'regoing to kind of come in much
later in the process.
And they're going to look atthings like sentence structure,
grammar, A little bit ofproofreading, although
proofreaders are their own jobin itself, but really it's
something that is verydifferent.
(05:16):
And yes, you could find someonethat could do both, but you
don't want to split focus.
So if I had a very roughmanuscript and I wanted some
developmental edits, I want tolook at the structure, even know
if I'm headed in the rightdirection.
I don't want someone focused soearly on on, oh, this is a
grammar mistake or this sentencestructure could be strengthened.
You want them focused on thestructure because that's what
(05:38):
we're after is reallystrengthening our story.
Great.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
That's awesome.
And very good to know because Iwas under the impression that
they should all be one.
So it's good for people to knowthat they are two very distinct
processes and it's good to havethose two.
And then you mentionedproofreading, which I haven't
really touched on at all.
Do you recommend all three?
Do you recommend that a writertry to go through all three?
(06:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
You know, it depends on the publishing path they
choose.
Certainly, if you go with atraditional house, they will
have those people set in placefor you.
And you'll see there's a timeand a place, right?
The copy editor comes way beforethe proofreader.
But if you're doing indie, Ithink that you really want to
get the most bang for your buck.
So I would say, and I'm jadedbecause this is not impartial.
(06:28):
So I am an editor, but I wouldreally think about investing in
the story structure help first,and then maybe find a friend or,
you know, a referral of somebodywho says, you know what, I'm
pretty good at both copy editingand catching errors.
And they can kind of give you atwo for one.
That's, that's more realistic tofind, in my opinion.
(06:50):
And there's actually a lot ofpeople who really have fun with
it.
They enjoy copy editing, theyenjoy proofreading.
You know, some of our friends,probably in our book clubs, our
neighbors, our streets, theywould love to proofread.
There's a That's
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
great.
I hadn't thought about that.
I love that creativity forfinding somebody on a budget.
I like it.
Yes.
Awesome.
All right.
So let's talk aboutcollaboration between the author
and editor.
So now we know what adevelopmental editor is.
What's a typical workflow whensomeone hires you?
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Yeah, so it's kind of different depending on where
that writer is in their process.
Some people come to me and say,I just have three chapters.
I need to know if I'm evenstarting right because I don't
want to spend the next ninemonths going in the wrong
direction.
Some people come to me with thefirst half of the book, and some
people come to me with the fullmanuscript.
So it's really, we call it apartial developmental edit or a
(07:47):
full developmental edit.
I love doing it all.
And what happens when they cometo me is we have a
questionnaire.
I want to make sure I know thepremise of the story, the
intentions that the writer has,how they want to make the reader
feel by the time they reach theend.
It's really good to know all ofthese.
And trust me, there's plenty ofeditors out there who don't ask
these questions.
(08:07):
So to anyone listening, makesure you find someone who feels
very interested in your storyand they feel aligned with the
genre you're writing.
If I was writing rom-com, Iwouldn't pick someone that has
only done sci-fi books, to beexample.
So they would do aquestionnaire.
We talk about the story and thenthey send me their pages.
I go away and do my thing.
(08:27):
And really for me, that's a deepdive.
So I spend a lot of time witheach page.
I'm leaving comments in themargins of everything from, do
we see a scene goal in everychapter?
Am I seeing characterinteriority?
Do we have narrative drive,which is kind of, if this
happens, then what happens next?
Do we have good dialogue?
(08:48):
Is there too much exposition?
How's the pacing?
How's the setting?
And I really kind of leavecomments.
And I love to leave bothpositive and negative.
negative comments.
When I say negative, it's justareas to strengthen because I
don't think a good editor shouldbe just red penning it where you
just get all the negative thingsin the margins.
You don't want that because youwant to be able to feel like you
(09:10):
can come back to your revisionsfeeling fueled and energized and
motivated.
I like to point out what they'vedone really well because every
writer has something they can dowell.
Then I like to point out thingsthat could use strengthening.
I do all that.
I write in the margins of everysingle page.
I return it via email to thewriter and then we get together
(09:31):
on Zoom and we have like an hourconversation about all of the
feedback, all the questions.
We kind of strategize whatrevisions might look like and it
really empowers the writer to gooff and do it on their own.
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
That's great.
So you spoke about two differentways to do developmental
editing.
So you talked about a little bitabout like the halfway mark
editing and then also like afull manuscript.
So When in the process, likelet's talk about the halfway
point.
When you do a halfway point,because this is something I've
never heard of before.
(10:05):
When you do halfway point as awriter, do we like write to the
half point, make it shine andthen send it to you?
You know how like with a fullmanuscript, we sort of do some
self editing before we send itout.
Obviously, we're not going tosend you, you know, a script
that has not been read, but isthe same process kind of applied
towards that midway edit?
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
A little bit.
I've even done this myself as anauthor is I've always worked
with a developmental editor onmy end as well for my books.
And I have in the past said,here's the first hundred pages.
Can you just tell me if I'm onthe right track?
And what that means is, am Imeeting genre expectations?
Is there a clear narrativedrive?
Do we understand what thecharacter wants?
(10:49):
What's standing in their way?
How they think they're going togo about getting it?
and all of the other charactersat play.
And if an editor sends it backand says, I don't know where to
place my focus.
You got way too many thingsgoing on.
I call it the kitchen sinksyndrome where people just keep
throwing in subplot aftersubplot.
And it really helps the writersay, okay, I need to focus.
(11:09):
I need to maybe edit out amillion subplots or I need to
bring in way more charactermotivation, whatever it is,
because what you don't want todo if you're unsure, depends on
really how seasoned you are as awriter, you don't want to get
all the way to the end and havethese hair pulling iterations of
having to rip everything apartand start over.
So Again, it depends on knowyourself as a writer.
(11:33):
Do I have that little red flagkind of flickering in my head
that I keep ignoring, but I knowI shouldn't, that something's
not quite laying together withthe story?
Then yeah, get a partial edit,get the feedback.
It's really fun to know, havesomeone else point out your
strengths and weaknesses, andthen you can sort of strengthen
that first half and just writeforward for the second half.
(11:54):
That's
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
great.
That is really good advice.
Thank you.
Yeah.
What about tough feedback?
So, you know, you mentioned likedoing your red pen in the
margins, you know, like, do youget tough on people?
Do you have sort of thatbalance?
Like you did mention that youhave like, you leave some
positive and maybe some likeconstructive feedback.
(12:16):
But if you know, like, if youknow the story is just not maybe
that great, how do you give thatfeedback and kind of lead them
towards like, maybe if you didthis, it would be a little bit
better or whatnot.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll give you a pastwriter I worked with as an
example.
This person really held me onthe surface for the entire book.
I never could figure out whatthe character was feeling or
thinking.
I could never figure out whatwas motivating them to say or do
what they were doing.
And to me, the whole book fellflat because of it.
And so what I said to thatwriter after I went through each
(12:52):
page is I said, I'm being heldat arm's length.
As your reader, I want somethingto root for.
I want something to connect to.
I want to have empathy for yourcharacter.
And the only way to do that isto go back and add a lot more
interiority.
And here's how and here's where.
So it was really instead of mesaying, hey, look, this book
doesn't work.
(13:12):
I could care less about thecharacter.
I said what I would love to seeinstead And that helps someone
really have actionable nextsteps as opposed to this sort of
vague feedback of, yeah, itdidn't work for me.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
That's great.
I love that.
I love that you don't give up onus so easily.
We've all been there, truly.
Yes.
All right.
Well, what about making a strongstory?
What are some common storyissues that you might see in an
indie manuscript?
And I don't know if it reallyvaries, you know, like there's a
(13:44):
difference between like an indiemanuscript and like maybe
somebody who's going to apublishing house.
Do you see some of those commonstory issues?
Are they a little bit different?
UNKNOWN (13:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Yeah, again, it depends on the author, but what
happens, and I'll speak for thismyself because I have two
traditional and two hybridbooks.
And with the books that arehybrid or self-published,
there's a tendency to lean intothe rushing of it all because
you know you have the power toput that book out whenever you
want.
And when you have that power,it's like, let's go fast.
(14:19):
So when your book is with atraditional, it you know,
publishing is glacial.
It takes forever in a day.
You have so many people touchingthe work and, you know, you have
time to really reflect oneverything.
So when it comes to indie, Iwill say sometimes I noticed
that writers rushed through theprocess and it's very obvious
(14:39):
that they did not get a betareader, that they didn't seek
feedback, they didn't have aneditor, and they very well could
have.
Yes, sometimes it's aboutbudget, but you could also join
a writing group and trade pageswith friends.
And so I would just say, don'tlet the rushing be the downfall
of your great story because whatif you just waited three or four
(15:00):
more months to really getfeedback and address the
feedback?
It would be so much stronger.
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
That's a good, I love those points a lot.
And you brought up somethingelse that I had not thought of.
And that's the beta reader.
So we talk about like themanuscript, our own process of
self editing before we get readyfor an editor.
But do we want to send ourmanuscript to a beta reader
before we send it to the editor?
(15:26):
Or maybe after we send it to theeditor?
SPEAKER_01 (15:29):
Yeah, this is one of the most common questions that I
get asked.
And I will tell you my opinion.
A developmental editor isreading your book for structure.
A beta reader is reading yourbook for entertainment.
They will read it like a normalreader will read it.
So they're looking at whatthey're getting out of it.
They're looking if it feelssatisfying to them, a satisfying
(15:52):
arc of change, a fun character.
It's almost like they're lookingat how much they enjoyed it.
where an editor is saying, let'sreally look at your scene
structure, your story structure,your pacing, your plot, setting,
etc.
And they're really helping youbuild a stronger story.
So in my opinion, I always say,work with an editor first.
(16:13):
then beta readers come next.
And again, if you don't have thebudget, there are ways to go
around that.
There's plenty of people thatoffer partials that aren't as
expensive as you think.
There's contests, there'sgiveaways, there's all kinds of
ways to go about it.
But if you had a choice and youhad the freedom, I would do
editor first, beta readersecond.
SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
Awesome.
Great.
What about, okay, a potentialclient has come to you.
You have read their manuscriptor maybe you're in the process
of, and maybe there is a signthat that needs more structural
work.
I know we talked about it alittle bit, but what is like a
major red flag in one of yourmanuscripts that you've read
that you're like, okay, we gotto address this like right away.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
Yeah.
Not having a clear showing ofwhat the character wants, their
big wants.
why they want it, both on anexternal and internal level.
You know, I work with somepeople and say, well, they just
want the big job promotion.
Well, why?
Like internally, why is itimportant to them?
So show what they want, why theywant it, and then what's
(17:20):
standing in their way and howthey think they're going to go
about getting it.
You know, there's a lot of timesI see a manuscript where the
plot is happening to thecharacter and they're just sort
of reacting and bumbling along.
They don't have agency becausethey don't have anything like a
big want they're going after.
So I would say that's kind ofthe biggest thing I see is don't
let your plot happen to yourcharacter.
(17:40):
I
SPEAKER_00 (17:41):
love that.
Excellent.
It's a good way.
It's a good thing to keep in theback of the mind when we're kind
of working our way through this.
SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Awesome.
So how do you help authorsstrengthen things like character
arcs or pacing?
Like what are your words maybethat you use or I don't know,
how do you kind of show theauthor like how to get through
those things or explain it?
SPEAKER_01 (18:07):
Yeah.
Character arcs, I always love togo deeper.
I mean, I love readingcharacter-driven stories.
So interiority is something thatI will say time and again.
I'm probably on everyone'spages.
You can never have too much ofit.
So what that means is show acharacter's inner thought,
feeling, or reaction.
Don't do it with dialogue alone.
Don't do it with action alone orplot alone.
(18:29):
I want to know how things arelanding with your character.
I want to know how they'rereacting on the inside as well
as the outside.
So that's one thing.
And then you want to see themlearning lessons and evolving so
they're a different person bythe time the story reaches the
end.
It doesn't have to be a happilyever after, but we want to see
them evolved and have newinsights on the world around
(18:50):
them.
So that's one way.
And then your other question waspacing, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Yes, pacing, big
SPEAKER_01 (18:56):
one.
Pacing, right?
Yes.
So there are certain thingsthat, slow down pacing.
One is exposition.
If someone goes to a large swathof backstory, it's like three
pages of backstory that's reallyslowed your pacing.
Another thing I call treadingwater, where we see your
character just staying one placeforever.
They're not doing anything tomove through the scene.
(19:17):
So use the scene to move themforward.
Yes, they want something thatthey're going after, but show
them moving through the room andshow that setting.
Show them interacting withanother character and how it's
landing with them.
Show them making decisions,which means having agency.
And I like to use this formulaif you really want to get the
(19:39):
pacing going, is if yourcharacter has decision followed
by an action followed by aconsequence.
And you can put that on repeat,decision, action, consequence,
decision, action, consequence.
That will really get your pacinggoing faster.
SPEAKER_00 (19:54):
I love it.
Excellent.
I love all this advice.
Oh my goodness.
So many great things out ofthis.
All right.
So moving on to revision.
So how many rounds ofdevelopmental editing do most
authors need?
Like, is it one and we're justkind of going back and forth for
a little bit?
Is it, I need a developmentaleditor midway.
(20:16):
I need another one at the end.
Is it, you know, like constantlyhiring?
I will let you answer.
I have my opinion about this,but go ahead.
Oh, I want to hear your opinion.
Oh, no, I just, I assume, okay,this is what I think, that you
would need it, you could eitherdo the midpoint, of course, but
if I gave a full manuscript atthe end, I would assume that
(20:39):
some kind of timeline isestablished, and we're going to
say, like, okay, we're going todo this for one month, this is a
one-month project, I am going togo through edits and provide you
feedback maybe weekly, or maybebi-weekly, I don't And so I
guess that's kind of what I'mwondering, like, is it one
(20:59):
project that just kind of inthis little time gap or do you
need to do it several differenttimes?
SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
Yeah, I think you're totally right with that.
So I have clients, I'll just usemy own clients as example.
I have some clients that send me25 pages every two weeks and we
just keep a steady clip ofmoving forward.
I edit those pages, send themback.
They send me a fresh submission.
We keep going until the book isdone.
And then I have people that sendme the whole manuscript and I'll
read all of that and I'll do adeep dive with notes.
(21:30):
We have a call and I trust themunless they have questions to
understand my notes enough to goback and work on their own.
And really they don't come backto me for another developmental
edit unless they're feeling sounsure about themselves but
honestly a good editor should beexplaining it clearly enough so
that you can take it away and goon your own
SPEAKER_00 (21:50):
great that's good to know I love that And what advice
do you give authors who feeloverwhelmed?
Maybe they just got their firstedit back.
There's a ton of information.
I am sure that you probably notonly do like maybe track
changes, but maybe you also likewrite a letter on the side and
kind of explain things along theway.
(22:12):
But what advice do you sort ofgive them when you're giving
this edited manuscript back?
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
Yeah.
Number one, even the mostseasoned of writers gets a lot
of feedback.
So this writer's not alone.
And number two is I have seensome of the messiest drafts turn
into beautiful gems at theoutset.
So anyone can achieve it as longas they really, really put the
(22:40):
work in.
I personally go through a lot ofrange of emotions.
When I get feedback, it's like,That's good to know.
Yeah.
Very good to know.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
All right, Nicole, we have made it to the Ink
Starter lightning round.
So I'm going to ask you fourdifferent questions, and you're
just going to quickly answerwhatever comes to mind.
So you mentioned you are also awriter.
What kind are you?
Are you a plotter, a pantser, ora planser?
(23:27):
Both.
I
SPEAKER_01 (23:28):
did pantser for the first book, which is super fun.
But then I wound up plotting thenext ones because I was on
contract with a publisher and Iwas forced to show them my
outline.
So
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
I'm both.
I guess I'm a plantser.
Okay, a plancer.
I love it.
And did you prefer that over theplotting?
Or do you prefer like kind ofhaving that flexibility between
the boat with between the two ofthem?
I
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
really like the flexibility.
I love making discoveries alongthe way.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
yeah, I totally agree.
All right.
What is one book you wish youcould have edited?
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
Oh man.
Is this because I love the bookor because it needs editing?
I
SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
would say, let's say because you love the book.
SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
Okay.
So I have a writer friend, AmyPapel, who wrote a book that
just came out called Far andAway.
And I loved it so much that I,she certainly doesn't need my
help, but I wish I could havebeen involved in.
It was about two families fromother countries that swap
houses.
And I just loved it so much.
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
Oh my goodness.
I'm gonna have to look that oneup.
I love that.
Okay.
Because I'm a big holidayperson.
and, you know, they were likeswapping houses.
So that is right up my alley.
All right.
What snacks are you bringing tothe editing session?
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (24:42):
I have snacks here because I always have food on my
desk.
So these are crackers, GoodThins crackers.
SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
Love it.
I love it.
All right.
And what is one actionable tipthat writers can do right now,
like right after this episodethat is going to help improve
their manuscript?
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
Yeah.
Let's go back to that formulathat I mentioned before is
decision, action, consequence.
If you can follow that in yourscenes, I bet you you'll find
ways to move them forwardbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
Awesome.
I love it.
I am definitely taking that formy own and I hope I can deliver.
Nice.
All right.
Five tips.
We are here.
You are going to give us yourfive best tips for us authors.
SPEAKER_01 (25:28):
Oh my gosh.
I think the very first one ismindset.
Just know that tenacity mostoften wins over talent.
As long as you keep showing upto the page, you're already
winning.
So I would say that's the firstone.
The second one is make sure youunderstand what your character
is after and why.
(25:49):
The next one is...
Make sure to find a trustedwriter friend or writer group
who you feel comfortable with.
Sometimes it takes a minute tofind your people and see if they
might want to gather, support,or trade pages.
The next one is in your freetime, even if you're watching TV
(26:09):
at the same time, do research.
Research books in your genre.
Research agents, editors, indiepublishers, anybody in your
genre because knowledge ispower.
And then I have a fifth one,right?
One more.
Never stop learning.
This industry changes on a dime.
(26:29):
And what I came into in theindustry in 2014 is wildly
different from it is now.
So just keep on, you know,subscribing to those newsletters
to keep learning about theindustry.
And again, knowledge is power.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Awesome.
I love it.
I love your tips.
Everything about today.
Nicole, thank you so much forjoining today and having some
fun with me sharing this processof developmental editing because
I'm super passionate aboutgetting books edited, making
sure that we're doing it theright way.
And of course, for your fivemust have tips.
So if you're interested inlearning more about Nicole Myers
(27:05):
editing service and the book shehas written, you can check the
show notes for her website, herpublications and places you can
purchase her book.
Thank you, Nicole.
Thanks so much.
I loved it.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Traditionally
Self-Published.
If this episode helped yousubscribe, leave a review and
share with your author andreader friends like and be sure
(27:27):
to check the first episode whereI share a bit about how this all
came to be and why building ahelpful community is so
important.
Until next time, be bold, writesmart and keep turning those
pages.
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