November 4, 2025 • 37 mins
“Every single word has to earn its place.” - Jayne Marshall
In this episode, literary fiction author and developmental editor Jayne Marshall joins me again to talk about crafting literary fiction and how to blend fact with fiction in an engaging way.
In this conversation, we dive into:
- Her latest release, A Line Drawn or Printed: Six Routes Through Madrid, a literary fiction.
- How she crafts a story blending fact and fiction without losing her authorial voice
- Her advice for making sure every word and every character count.
- Her best tips for authors on writing literary fiction
About Jayne:
Jayne Marshall is an author and a developmental editor at Modern Odyssey Books. Her latest book, A Line Drawn or Printed: Six Routes Through Madrid, can be found at all fine retailers. She currently resides in Spain.
You can also follow her by visiting one of her sites below:
- Website: jaynemarshall.com
- Subscribe to her Substack here: whoiaminspanish.substack.com
Have a publishing question? Email me at mica@micamerrillrice.com
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"Traditionally Self-Published" theme music is written by Landon Bailey and performed and produced by LNDÖ
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
What's up, plot twisters, and a warm welcome to
my page turner, the intriguedreaders and listeners who are
just stepping into the story.
Whatever title you fancy they, Iam so happy you're here with us.
You're listening toTraditionally Self-Published,
where we unravel the chaos ofself-publishing and help you
write your own success storylike a pro.
I'm your host, Mika MerrillRice, author with a passion for
(00:30):
learning and sharing the love.
I'm bringing you real talk withpublishing pros and indie
authors just like me who flippedthe script and built thriving
author careers on their ownterms and are doing it like a
pro.
So whether you're a first-timeauthor or you're a seasoned pro,
you're right where you need tobe.
Alright, today we're talkingwith a seasoned author about her
(00:52):
new book and what it takes tocraft the perfect literary
fiction.
If you've ever wondered what ittakes to bring prose to life,
this episode is for you.
I am joined again today by JaneMarshall, a developmental editor
for Modern Odyssey Books, andshe's also the author of A Line
Drawn or Printed, Six RoutesThrough Madrid, a literary
fiction book.
(01:13):
So today we're going to talkabout crafting literary fiction,
blending fact and fiction,balancing prose and plot, and
then we're going to concludewith the Ink Starter Lightning
Round and Jane's five best tipsfor authors.
So welcome back, Jane.
It's such a pleasure to have youback with us.
SPEAKER_02 (01:30):
Thank you for having me back.
SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
Yes, absolutely.
I could not pass this up.
So today, instead of talkingabout editing, we're going to
talk about your newest book.
Again, that's a line drawn orprinted, Six Routes Through
Madrid.
This is a literary fiction.
And I my first question for youis what drew you to literary
fiction as your primary form ofstorytelling?
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Well, I think probably like a lot of authors,
simply because that's what I'dalways read from a very young
age.
And also my sister, who's threeyears older than me, she studied
English literature atuniversity.
So when she went off touniversity, she used to send me
the books that uh she had on herreading list.
Once she'd finished with them,she'd post them to me because
(02:17):
this was the 90s.
And uh so I just started from ayoung age reading like stuff
probably yeah, you wouldnormally encounter till a bit
later, like postmodernism,post-colonial fiction.
And I was discovering all theseauthors that weren't in the
local library.
So yeah, when I came to writingum or experimenting with
writing, I think that's justkind of a natural jumping off
(02:39):
point for most writers that youstart with what you know and
what you enjoy, and then fromthere you can experiment with
other genres later on, whichwhich I I did and I think we're
gonna get into later.
Yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
All right.
Uh how do you think literaryfiction differs in its demands
on both a reader and a writercompared to like genre fiction?
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
I I really think that's a great question because
I think it's good to emphasizethat full writing is difficult.
But in in the sense of that, asyou know, it do it places a lot
of demands on mind and spiritand emotions and intelligence.
Uh, and so I think that'spresent across all writing and
it just varies according to thekind of writing that you're
(03:23):
doing.
Um, I was thinking about thisbecause one thing that would
absolutely terrify me would beto try and write a children's
story, because I think that mustbe really, really difficult
thinking of my eight-year-oldniece.
She is a tough crowd, and eventhough, say maybe you're you're
talking about a 500-wordmanuscript versus 80,000 words,
(03:44):
that that would still absolutelyterrify me.
So I just think it's justdifferent demands um according
to to the genre, but it's it'sall hard work, hard but
rewarding.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Yes, definitely.
It's so funny you say thatbecause I think every writer
dreads writing something shorterthan the actual manuscript.
From um, I would never alsowrite a children's book.
I think it would be way toodifficult.
But I also have a tough timewith blurbs.
I'm like, why can I write like80,000 words that I can't write
this, like, you know, 300-wordblurb for the back of the book?
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
So yeah, that's a really good example, actually.
Yeah, because that's more likesales copy, isn't it?
And that's that's always hardfor writers, I think.
Yes, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
All right.
So in the book, you talk aboutsome deeply personal themes like
love and loss.
Um, you talk about uh love andloss from not just from a love
perspective, like you know,relationship, but also family.
And so how did you decide howmuch you were going to reveal
and how much you wanted to keepprivate?
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
I I try to stick to um the maxim of Lucia Berlin's
where she talks about writingemotional truths, uh, which is
kind of self-explanatory.
But um, for me, that kind ofmanifests as a test that I give
myself.
So once I've written somethingthat, as you say, is quite
personal, I kind of try and stepback and ask myself, almost set
(05:06):
like my ask myself, ask mywriting self, um, if if that
feels authentic to me and if itand authentic to what I'm trying
to express and to to anybody uhreading it.
So if it passes that test, umthen I leave it in.
But I do also, as I justmentioned, feel some separation.
Um, so even if something is verypersonal, and even if, say, I'm
(05:29):
writing about it likepractically word for word or
verbatim to how it how ithappened, and there's no
fictionalizing, it still in someway feels like an account, like
I'm reporting on my on my ownlife, if that makes sense.
So, and it's funny because thisquestion really did make me
think about that process, and Ithink it's is important to me to
have some distance.
(05:50):
So, although it is very personaland it's very authentic, and the
emotional truth is there,there's still something that's
left over that's just mine and abit more private.
So, I think that that kind ofseparation helps um me decide as
well, kind of how far to takeit, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
Yeah, no, it was beautifully done.
I I really enjoyed it.
So, the book, of course, um it'sthe six routes through Madrid.
So, Spain, what role did Spain,both its culture and landscape,
play as almost a character inyour book?
Because it's a pretty importantpart of the plot behind it.
SPEAKER_02 (06:24):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
And moving to Madrid withwithout a doubt was was my I
think my catalyst to startwriting, although I had written
in the past up and my it waslike suddenly I'd found um the
prism through which to examinethese topics that I'd always
been interested in, just ingeneral, but also as a reader.
(06:44):
So, like identity, belonging,and then also language and
identity, what happens when yousort of move not only country
but into a second language aswell.
So all that had still alwaysinterested me in the UK, but but
then coming here and having thisbackdrop of the unfamiliar, this
foreign place, that that waslike where I could find my my
(07:06):
incision point into this kind ofbig topic.
So in that way, I think um Spainand Madrid are well that one
word that came to mind was likea winged man in a way.
So, like, you know, she's thereor wing woman, she's kind of
there, um just helping me outwith uh with these big topics.
(07:28):
But although maybe a better wayto put it is she is like more of
a character, as you say.
So in that way, more of like aperson in the sense of someone
to bounce things off, reflectback to me these these ideas of
identity and who are you in thisnew place after you decide to
uproot yourself and then replantyourself, and how much of you
(07:48):
actually changes or how much ofyou actually is just who you
are, and that's who you are nomatter where you are in the
world.
So I think Madrid, she's likethe she is a character in the
sense that she allows me tobounce those questions off the
city, of the place, and you makeme reflect on on them with that
kind of yeah, background.
That was a bit complicated.
SPEAKER_01 (08:10):
No, I love it.
It just totally makes sense,especially when you when you
read the book.
Um because you're you're you aregoing through these different
points and these differentintersections and even different
experiences, like you know, thethe summers, uh the parties in
the summer, and you know, yourexperience with that and what's
kind of going on in thebackground, you know, in the
(08:31):
city around you, while this, youknow, without spoiling it, but
without you know, this uhexperience that you're having
with someone.
So um very well done.
So let's talk about those linesbetween fact and fiction.
Um, I think when people readyour book, they probably assume
(08:53):
that the entire thing iscompletely nonfiction.
Um but like we mentioned, andlike you said earlier, you sort
of draw this line between thetwo.
I don't know if that's where thetitle came into play, by the
way, but I I think it was playedvery well because there is it's
either you know, like a linethat you you've drawn in real
life or just kind of print itout.
(09:14):
Um, but you're you're yeah,that's that was it.
You're right.
Okay, good.
Because I was like, wow, thattitle is like perfect.
Um your book weaves togetherthese essays and fiction
together.
So, how did you decide where tostay true again to that lived
experience and where tofictionalize it?
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
I kind of want to say it wasn't a decision in a
way, um or not uh an exactlyconscious one because and it
comes back again to like LuciaBoleyn and her idea of emotional
truth.
Uh so in that way, I'm always Iwill always follow the story
over the over the facts such asthey are.
Um, because well, I think we'vejust we discussed this at uh in
(09:58):
another event, but um, you know,how much can you say something
is objectively true anyway,especially if you have like
different perspectives on it andum people live it differently.
Like the quote actually that I'mgoing to share later is
literally just an account ofsome friends eating eating ice
cream.
But I know that if I asked thosetwo friends who do exist, like
(10:19):
what was your experience ofthat, they would come up with
complete something completelydifferent.
They might not even remember inthe first place.
So uh so for me, I think thestory is always going to be more
important over like the hard,cold facts.
Um but I mentioned earlier aboutalso experimenting with uh
genres and things, and and Iremember when I discovered
(10:42):
creative nonfiction, because upuntil then I had been writing
what I would just blanketly callfiction, but was very much
closely based on my life and myexperiences.
And then I kind of discoveredthis creative nonfiction felt to
me like a middle way in a sense.
But then I thought, well, hangon, no, it's still non-fiction.
So, you know, I'm not an expertin in anything.
(11:03):
I can't write non-fiction,whether it's creative or or not.
And then from there I realized,well, the only thing I can be an
expert in is like my own life.
So I can have authority over mythoughts and my feelings because
they're mine.
So I can talk about those withauthority, but the rest I I
always want to leave to to thereader to to draw their own
(11:25):
conclusions about.
So that was a long way around ofsaying I try to stay true to my
truths and like what to me isthe emotional truth of a story,
but everything else is up forgrabs, basically.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Awesome.
Yeah, totally.
I I get it.
And it's um, it just worked out.
I like I said, I I I don't Ithink when I read it, and I I
like I said, I think a lot ofreaders that I've spoken to who
have read this book as well, weall kind of say the same thing.
It doesn't really matter that itthat we're trying to, you know,
it doesn't, it's not like we'resitting there with a microscope
going, did this really happen toJane?
(12:00):
Did it not happen to Jane?
It's just beautiful the way it'swritten and it feels authentic.
Um but I think we look for thattoo in fiction in some, at least
some of us, maybe not likesci-fi or fantasy, but when
you're reading like uh literaryfiction or even um even
thrillers, you're looking forsome kind of like I don't know,
(12:21):
like it has to feel real in away, you know, those emotions
have to feel real in a way.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
It's like you said, authenticity, I think is the
word, isn't it?
And and as long as that kind oftruth is there, you kind of will
go with the with with the story.
SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
Yes, for sure.
What are the risks and rewardsof blending fact and fiction, do
you think?
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
Yeah, I um I think you have more freedom to invent,
of course, with fiction, but butthen you also have have a frame.
This is the way I see it anyway.
So although I'm kind of usingthe word facts lightly, but uh
but you know, you do have kindof a framework of of uh of fact
or something that actuallyhappened, and then within that
(13:07):
like perimeter, that usefullimit of of the real, then you
can just go mad and inventstuff.
So for me, it's like the perfectcombination of uh giving, yeah,
giving you a limit so that youyou have that incision point
like I was talking aboutearlier, but then once you're in
there, you can sort of do whatyou like with the rest, which is
(13:27):
fun.
I I I like that way of writing.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Yeah, for sure.
And do you see this hybrid formas becoming more common or
appealing for writers?
SPEAKER_02 (13:38):
That's a really interesting question and a big
topic in in writing and andpublishing, as I'm sure
listeners will will know withthe uh sort of recent um
controversies around like thesalt path and that kind of
thing.
Well, although that wasobviously the controversy there
was that it was told readerswere told it was one thing and
(13:58):
then it wasn't necessarily.
So I think that kind of gets tothe the center of that question
in a way, that's how you set upthose expectations with readers.
So I think people, readersprobably maybe like do like this
hybrid form, as you say, for theauthenticity, but you do have to
kind of have be honest with yourreader and set up those
(14:19):
expectations.
So they know that it's a blend,they know that it's hybrid, they
know that's you know, yeah, thatit's a mixture of fact and
fiction, but but as long as theyknow that when they're reading,
and like we know this is readerstoo, then then that informs the
journey that they go on.
So if you don't sort of firsthave that conversation with
them, well that conversation inthe loose sense, they uh you
(14:41):
know it changes the experience,and I think that's when readers
could feel a bit deceived.
So I think it's yes popular, butyou just have to be kind of
upfront about how much is trueand how much isn't, or at least
that there's a mixture.
SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
Definitely.
No, I think uh I think you setit up pretty well and it was it
was clear.
But again, I think, you know,just going back to what I said
earlier, I think even though weknow it's it's fact and it's
fiction, we still, I mean, Idon't know, it just felt so
real.
I don't know how to describe itwithout telling people, just go
read it, you'll see what I mean.
But that's great.
(15:16):
I'm glad to hear that for sure.
Well, let's um let's move toprose and style.
So readers often describeliterary fiction as lyrical or
poetic, but how do you approachprose that's beautiful but not
like overwrought?
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
Hmm.
Yeah, I think it's partly taste,I think, because um I'm a member
of some book clubs, so as areader, I notice things that for
me are are a bit overdone, otherpeople enjoy.
So I guess there's there'salways um horses for courses,
but uh um for me, yeah, it'sdefinitely a fine balance.
(15:51):
Like one thing that comes tomind is I I really like a good
simile.
But if you put if the writerputs too many in, like
especially on the same page, andthen I get really irritated.
Like if everything else is likesomething else, then what is
actually happening here?
And I think they they're verybeautifully when they're well
done, but overused.
Yeah, as a as a reader, I getreally irritated.
(16:13):
So um that's well, that's onething that always jumps out at
me.
But I do have a few moretechniques as well, if uh if you
want me to go on.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
Yes, yes, definitely.
We definitely want to know likethe techniques that you use to
polish your sentences withoutusing that clarity.
Because I know I am definitelyguilty of this.
You will find out soon enough,I'm sure.
But um I uh I know what you meanabout like the simile usage.
Um, it can get overused, um, butit's easy, but there's got to be
(16:42):
a better way to do it.
So, what is your like, you know,your go-to, or what is your
advice for that?
SPEAKER_02 (16:49):
I used to have above above my desk, it I should put
it back up because it just felldown.
But it basically was a quotefrom uh Maggie Nelson that said,
wash it clean.
And that's always what I kind ofhave in my mind.
So yeah, basically removeanything that is superfluous, or
another quote which was fromsomebody else who has name I
(17:09):
can't remember, is uh removeanything that isn't useful or
beautiful.
So anything that yeah, thatisn't uh doing work in in the
narrative or is beautiful in itsown right.
So I have both of those thingsin my mind all the time, but um,
but it's really interesting whatyou say about clarity because uh
maybe I take that too much toheart because a piece of
feedback I often get on on earlydrafts is that I'm there isn't
(17:33):
enough detail.
So I've like washed it tooclean.
And yeah, you can prunesomething back and prune it and
prune it, it ends up just notreally making any sense and and
confusing the reader.
So so I do try and yeah, wash itclean, but now I have to also
add to that don't confusepeople.
So yeah, I have to keep both ofthose in mind.
(17:54):
But um and similes, yeah.
Similes I just try and avoid ifI can because they're too
tempting.
They're extremely tempting.
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
Oh my goodness.
All right, well, how do youhandle pacing in a book where
theme and reflection are just asimportant as the plot?
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
Yeah, that's a really big one.
Um, I'm not sure I do handle itvery well, to be honest.
Um, I feel like plot alwayssuffers um over theme for me.
Yeah, it's uh it's a tricky one.
Um I think what I try and do isjust uh make sure there is a
journey there.
So even if it's very subtle,very subtle, very small, like
(18:35):
there's still some movement fromfrom A to B.
So something has changed fromthe beginning to the end.
Um so yeah, that's actuallysomething I also I definitely
have to also be aware of becauseyeah, for me it's easier to just
go off into a little likeidentity rabbit hole in there
and forget that there actuallyneeds to be a plot there.
(18:56):
So yeah, I'm not sure I dohandle it, but I um I handle it
by trying to be aware of it.
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
Oh my goodness.
Well, you did great.
I I wouldn't even know that thatwas even a struggle.
So I'll do which writers orbooks do you think have
influenced your voice the most?
SPEAKER_02 (19:15):
Oh, that's like the best question and the worst
question, I think, isn't it, fora writer?
But I am thinking about it, I Ithink I'm a bit of a magpie,
especially since I've beenliving in in Spain, it's a
little bit harder to get hold ofbooks in English, so I'll just
kind of take anything that'savailable.
And that was good because it'skind of expanded my reading
(19:36):
experiences.
And and in that way, I think I'ma bit sort of a magpie.
So I'll, you know, there'sthings that I'll kind of take on
board because I'm reading fromdifferent places, but I do think
probably my it was that's mysister sending me her reading
list when I was like just 15 or14.
Uh, and I think reading all ofthat post-modern and
(19:57):
post-colonial fiction, I thinkthat's where that had the
biggest influence, influence onme in terms of like themes
again, back to identity andlanguage and everything.
Um, I think that's where thatbegan and it stayed with me.
Uh, but after that, then when Idiscovered multilingual writers
like uh Lucia Berlin, who Imentioned earlier, they her and
(20:18):
people like writers like herreally showed me what you can do
on a line level with language,which is just that little bit
unexpected or outside of thenorm of somebody that maybe only
writes in one language.
Um so those two come those twowere definitely like the big
influences, I think.
Like the yeah, the identitythemes and then the language,
(20:38):
the multilingual writers.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
Very nice.
All right, so let's come back tothe editor's desk for a minute.
So, as a developmental editor,how does your editing work
influence your writing?
SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
I do think working as an editor means that I'm
stricter with my with my ownwriting.
Like I have no problem killingmy darlings.
Like that's not just not anissue for me.
In fact, like I said before, Ioften kill too many of them and
then had to add some back ins.
But that does not pain me in anyway.
And I think um I think that'spartly to do with working as an
(21:16):
editor as well.
And before working with ModernOdyssey, I was working at um a
big Spanish publisher, whichmainly published educational
material.
So that also really taught me somuch.
Like, although the actualmaterial wasn't particularly
particularly literary, that'shard to say.
It taught me so much aboutprecision, uh, especially on a
(21:37):
line level.
So that in those books, in thateducational material, every
single word had to earn itsplace, but it also had to be
perfectly like clear and crispwhat it was saying.
So I really took that, I Inoticed that I started to take
that forward into my own writingas well, when I would be sort of
editing and thinking, hang on aminute, is that is this sentence
(21:58):
actually you know clear?
And do I really need this and doI really need that?
So that really helped, I think.
Uh well, I hope so.
No, I love that.
And I think then working withmonodyssey gave me like a nice
complimentary skill.
And you've spoken with Maria,and she's very much into the
idea of letting stories surfacein in whatever way they want to
(22:19):
surface, which is reallybeautiful.
And I think before working withMaria, I was a bit stricter in
in that sense of I wanted tokind of kind of put the story
into a box in a way, I guess.
So so now working with her, uh Irealize I can I can let stories
just unfold.
So I think that's two nice kindof lessons that I've had.
(22:40):
Like one, be strict on the linelevel, but also let the story
kind of do its thing as well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
Yes.
I love that line you used.
Every word has to earn its placein your book.
That's excellent.
Um, gonna that is gonna be thething that I put on my corkboard
in the back.
I'm gonna I'm gonna use that.
Very nicely done.
All right.
What mistakes do you see writersmaking when they're tackling
literary fiction?
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Yeah, that's um that's a good one.
I think probably back to theoverwriting a little bit, um,
and going too too head-on intoreflection and and the theme and
and making sure that's I mean,this isn't everyone, obviously.
This is just yeah, somethingI've noticed.
Um, and I don't want to say thatI don't do it either, like we we
(23:28):
all have our weak spots, but umyeah, so like the theme and
reflection has to be very finelybalanced with story, so i.e.
plot.
And like I said, this issomething I have to be aware of
as well.
So that you might have somethingthat's very beautiful on a
line-by-line level, but it doeshave to have this nice
supporting like scaffold there.
So there needs to be, thereneeds to be a journey and it
(23:50):
needs to be kind of hemmed in ina sense, in a sense that yeah,
there's a there's a departurepoint and an ending point.
So I think maybe especially withnewer writers, as you're kind of
experimenting with your voice,and it's fun to just kind of
keep writing and thinking andexploring, and that is great.
But and maybe some people wouldlike to read that.
(24:11):
I suppose it's kind of stream ofconsciousness, but yeah, for me,
you also need um structurearound that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
Yeah, I agree.
And um, all right, so whatadvice would you give to indie
authors who want to experimentwith a hybrid storytelling?
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
Yeah, that's a good question too.
Um I think maybe back to lettingthe story unfold as it as it
wants to a little bit, just tryand clear your mind of any
ideas, any preconceptions, andthen just start writing.
So let the story be what itwants to be, and then you can go
(24:49):
back and and give it thisstructure that I mentioned.
So that kind of balance betweenexperimental but but but
thoughtfully done.
So yeah, I think just go for it,write, write in whatever way the
story wants to be written, andthen and then but then go back
and and add in that thatscaffolding.
And kill all your darlings.
And kill yeah, not too many.
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
Yeah, not too many.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
Okay, I have been dying to ask you this question.
You're an editor.
Does the editor need an editor?
SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
Absolutely, yes, absolutely, no doubt about it.
And I'm glad you asked.
Um, yes, we we all need thesedistant eyes on our work.
Um, and for me, it's liketherapists need therapists, it's
the same thing, absolutely thesame thing.
There's just so you know, wethere's so much, only so much
that you can see in your ownwork.
(25:42):
But um, and I think, yeah, ifyou do work as an editor,
hopefully you probably have aslightly wider vision in that
sense, but you still do needsomebody outside of the the work
to come in and go, hang on aminute, it's this here, get rid
of that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Very good.
I I love that you are uh uh youalso um you are freely admitting
that you need an editor,everybody needs an editor.
And I've said this and from thebeginning, I think editing is if
you're gonna spend moneyanywhere, it would be this.
Um I think it's the mostimportant part of the whole
(26:16):
piece because you can have abeautiful cover, you can nail
your blurb on the back, but ifthe inside of your book uh isn't
properly edited, it's gonna fallflat for readers.
SPEAKER_02 (26:26):
So I I do agree, and not just because I am an editor.
Yeah, you don't yeah, you do allof that work and then you don't
want to your reader to open upthe book all excitedly and then
kind of yeah, be pulled outbecause there is just like stuff
that could have been easilyfixed if somebody else had seen
it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
Yes, totally agree.
All right, the ever-popular InkStarter Lightning Round Jane.
Here we go.
All right.
First question favorite Spanishword or phrase you picked up
since moving?
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Oh, such a lot to choose from.
Um I'm gonna go with uh the wordganas, which is actually you
don't kind of use it on its own,you usually use it within a
phrase, but it's basically likethe same in English as, you
know, do you feel like doingsomething?
Do you fancy doing something?
You would say, Do you have ganasfor this?
And it's just so useful in somany contexts, and it's so much
(27:17):
shorter than saying it inEnglish, to the point that
sometimes now I just I get lazyand I just insert it into
English anyway, and just say,Oh, do you want to have you have
you got Ganners to see a filmtonight?
People like, well.
It's just for me, it's just sucha great useful word.
I'm sorry, I'm not very good atlightning round because I just
(27:38):
taught too much.
SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
Oh no, you're fine.
Oh my gosh, you're fine.
All right, a book that changedyour perspective on life or
writing.
SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Uh well, if I'm such a boy, I always make reference
to Nabakov, but um, he deservesto be referred to in in my own
personal literary pantheonbecause when I when I discovered
him, I just never read anyonewho wrote like that.
And he really showed me thiskind of this phrase I keep
seeing around lately about sayit wrong to say it right.
(28:08):
So his it wasn't that hisEnglish was incorrect.
Um Lolita was the first novelthat he wrote originally in
English, and that was the onethat I discovered him through.
So he wasn't incorrect, um, butit was just unusual, and and
then coupled with his talent asa storyteller was just a really
arresting combination.
And I remember lending it to afriend actually, you know, doing
(28:29):
that thing where you're like,you have to read this, you have
to read this.
And I was with him when hefinished it, and he just closed
the book and he just was like,Why would anyone ever write
another novel again?
I think that kind of summed itup for me.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Very nice.
All right, red sangria or whitewine chain.
SPEAKER_02 (28:47):
This is an easy word, white wine.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Agreed.
SPEAKER_01 (28:52):
All right, favorite quote from your own book.
I've I've before you evenanswer, okay, I want you to know
that I have about 10 quotes thatI love from your book, but I
would love to know yours.
Do you have one that you justwrote and you're like, ah,
that's it?
SPEAKER_02 (29:06):
It's so hard because um uh yeah, it probably changes
like hour on hour, minute onminute.
Um thank you for havingmultiple.
Uh the one I decided to go withwas because I've got summer
holidays on my mind today,because I'm about to take my
summer holiday.
And also I've been thinking alot about writing in place
(29:28):
because I'm setting up an eventabout that in Madrid.
So I've got those two things onmy mind.
So I have one that I picked out,which is basically about like
going out for an ice cream on ahot summer's night.
Did you want me to read it or doI Yes?
Go ahead.
I was like, hang on, do I justchoose it or do I read it?
Okay, so I'll I'll read it.
(29:50):
Natalia, Audrey, and I stand inPlata Chueca, like one of those
bad jokes.
A Venezuelan born in Argentina,a French Canadian, and me.
The ice cream is cold and softand sweet.
I see some people I know andraise a sticky hand in greeting.
When I get home a few hourslater, the cat is waiting for
(30:11):
me, having, for reasons knownonly to himself, forsaken his
own evening passeo.
I get into bed, a slight breezecuts through the heat every now
and then.
He curls up in the crook of mylegs, and we stay that way until
morning.
SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
I love it.
And if somebody can't pick upthe book after that, I don't
know.
I'm just not sure about that.
Yes, it's the way you bring itall to life, I think, was the
best part for me in your book,is just the the way you describe
things.
It just, I don't know.
It just works.
So I love your quote that youpicked out.
(30:47):
Thank you so much.
Of course.
And then, all right, one lastone.
One writing rule that you'dbreak anytime for the love of
the story.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
Well, yeah, I'm a fan of breaking the rules, I
think, in general, but I thinkI'll go back to that one.
Um say it wrong to say it right.
So I would break I would breakthe rule of making sure
everything is uh technicallycorrect.
Break that rule in order to saysomething in a more beautiful,
interesting way.
(31:18):
Very nice.
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
I love that.
All right, and your five besttips for writing literary
fiction.
SPEAKER_02 (31:25):
This was much harder than the five tips for writing.
Oh, sorry, editing, actually.
So I'm not sure what's saysabout me.
And some of them might overlap,actually.
But um, these are the ones thatimmediately came to mind.
So not sexy at all, but listsare very useful.
So depending on how long thepieces that you're you're
(31:47):
sitting down to write, um, makean outline before you start,
even if you don't stick to it.
Uh, and even if it's a longer,like a novel, like make a
spreadsheet.
I'm gonna, you know, do it.
You don't have to stick to it,but it gives you, you know, you
have that lovely, you know, thatlovely tingling of a new idea
that just won't leave you alone.
And I think it's good to followthat, but also before maybe you
(32:11):
really start writing, just thinkabout okay, I need I need my
themes, and but I need a storyas well.
So just have a little thinkabout that.
So, yeah, lists is number one orplans.
Um, number two would be uh it'skind of a little bit related,
slash in opposition to the firstone, like but definitely just
(32:32):
write, right, right, right,right.
Um even if you never look atthat list again, you've done the
groundwork.
So when you come to write, youcan write with no censorship and
then come back and edit itlater.
So just write without censoringyourself.
Um, but then when you do come toedit, be rigorous.
And I would say ask yourself,and this is what I do for sure,
(32:54):
over and over again, like everyfive minutes, what is this
about?
What am I trying to say?
And why should people care aboutit?
I think people call it the sowhat test.
So just keep asking yourselflike why, why, why, why?
Um number four is once I have agood draft, uh like a good solid
draft, I will print it out andI'll I feel like I might mention
(33:17):
this one in the editing round.
But uh, you know, there'sthere's it's worth saying again.
Uh so I print it out and I dotwo edits.
So one and then with differentcolor pens.
So one's uh for themes and plot.
So that's like the horizontal,your plot, and the vertical your
themes.
Um so I do that edit, and thenafter that I go line by line, uh
(33:39):
word by word, like I mentionedearlier.
Like, is this word pulling itsway?
And anything that makes mecringe, even like five percent,
it's gotta go.
So any cringe is out.
And then the last one would bewhen you are looking at the line
by line level.
Um it was five tips.
Yes, okay, good.
(34:00):
Um, when you're looking at lineby line level, always look at
opportunities where you can saysomething just a little bit
differently.
Uh so I was thinking about, Idon't know if you remember one
of the stories in my book, itjust starts with, so anyway.
And I picked that up fromanother writer who not that
exact phrase, but uh who startedtheir stories just with like
(34:22):
kind of a weird construction orlike grammatically a bit off,
but it just was so much moreinteresting than so I was in a
house in the mountains and thenblah blah blah.
So I don't know, just for me, Ilike I that kind of thing of
appeals as a reader, but also asa writer.
So just to look for where youcan just change up a little bit,
you know.
It's it's good that you're clearabout what you're saying and
(34:43):
you're you're placing the readerin the story, but can you do
that a slightly more interestingway?
Smile.
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
Awesome.
I love it.
I am gonna take some of these.
I'm gonna put your quote on mycorkboard.
I've had so much fun with youtoday.
So a line drawn or printed SixRoutes Through Madrid by my
friend Jane Marshall.
Where can listeners find yourbook?
SPEAKER_02 (35:07):
In the bookshop.
Uh so go into your localbookshop and ask for it, they
can get it for you.
Um, or you can go to the ModernOdyssey website, which is
modernodyssebooks.com, and thatwill take you through to places
online where you can buy it aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (35:22):
All right.
And if they're writers and theyare interested in your freelance
developmental editing, where canthey connect with you?
SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
Um thank you, Fraski.
Uh, you can go to my website,janemarshall.com, and there's a
contact form there where you canget in touch, and I'll be happy
to speak to anybody.
I love working with writers.
SPEAKER_01 (35:44):
And uh, what is next for you as both a writer and an
editor?
SPEAKER_02 (35:49):
Oh, I was gonna say my holiday, who's the next thing
in the career realm.
Well, I do, I am working on twothings simultaneously for
writing.
So something that in some wayswould might be like the second
volume after a line drawn orprinted.
(36:11):
Um, so like a really a relatedkind of um short novel.
And on the other side, um I'mwant to write a collection of
short stories, but and I havethe theme, but that's about all
I've all I've got so far.
So we'll see how that developsand editing.
Um, I'm just about to finish upa big old manuscript for a
client that's been great.
(36:32):
I've been working on it allsummer, so I've been immersed in
this this world that this uhthat the writer created.
Um also have my holiday.
So after that, after that, umwe're going to be doing some
events as well in Madrid.
So a bit of a mixed bag once Iget back off holiday.
Sorry, I'm so obsessed with myholiday.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
I would be obsessed with the holiday too.
I hope you have so much fun.
Thank you so much for joining meagain, Jane.
This has been a pleasure, and Ilook forward to speaking again
with you soon.
SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you.
SPEAKER_01 (37:07):
Thanks.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Traditionally
Self-Published.
If this episode helped you,subscribe, leave a review, and
share with your author andreader friends alike.
And be sure to check the firstepisode where I share a bit
about how this all can be andwhy building a helpful community
is so important.
Until next time, be bold, writesmart, and turn those papers.
What's up, plot twisters, and a warm welcome to
my page turner, the intriguedreaders and listeners who are
just stepping into the story.
Whatever title you fancy they, Iam so happy you're here with us.
You're listening toTraditionally Self-Published,
where we unravel the chaos ofself-publishing and help you
write your own success storylike a pro.
I'm your host, Mika MerrillRice, author with a passion for
(00:30):
learning and sharing the love.
I'm bringing you real talk withpublishing pros and indie
authors just like me who flippedthe script and built thriving
author careers on their ownterms and are doing it like a
pro.
So whether you're a first-timeauthor or you're a seasoned pro,
you're right where you need tobe.
Alright, today we're talkingwith a seasoned author about her
(00:52):
new book and what it takes tocraft the perfect literary
fiction.
If you've ever wondered what ittakes to bring prose to life,
this episode is for you.
I am joined again today by JaneMarshall, a developmental editor
for Modern Odyssey Books, andshe's also the author of A Line
Drawn or Printed, Six RoutesThrough Madrid, a literary
fiction book.
(01:13):
So today we're going to talkabout crafting literary fiction,
blending fact and fiction,balancing prose and plot, and
then we're going to concludewith the Ink Starter Lightning
Round and Jane's five best tipsfor authors.
So welcome back, Jane.
It's such a pleasure to have youback with us.
SPEAKER_02 (01:30):
Thank you for having me back.
SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
Yes, absolutely.
I could not pass this up.
So today, instead of talkingabout editing, we're going to
talk about your newest book.
Again, that's a line drawn orprinted, Six Routes Through
Madrid.
This is a literary fiction.
And I my first question for youis what drew you to literary
fiction as your primary form ofstorytelling?
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Well, I think probably like a lot of authors,
simply because that's what I'dalways read from a very young
age.
And also my sister, who's threeyears older than me, she studied
English literature atuniversity.
So when she went off touniversity, she used to send me
the books that uh she had on herreading list.
Once she'd finished with them,she'd post them to me because
(02:17):
this was the 90s.
And uh so I just started from ayoung age reading like stuff
probably yeah, you wouldnormally encounter till a bit
later, like postmodernism,post-colonial fiction.
And I was discovering all theseauthors that weren't in the
local library.
So yeah, when I came to writingum or experimenting with
writing, I think that's justkind of a natural jumping off
(02:39):
point for most writers that youstart with what you know and
what you enjoy, and then fromthere you can experiment with
other genres later on, whichwhich I I did and I think we're
gonna get into later.
Yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
All right.
Uh how do you think literaryfiction differs in its demands
on both a reader and a writercompared to like genre fiction?
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
I I really think that's a great question because
I think it's good to emphasizethat full writing is difficult.
But in in the sense of that, asyou know, it do it places a lot
of demands on mind and spiritand emotions and intelligence.
Uh, and so I think that'spresent across all writing and
it just varies according to thekind of writing that you're
(03:23):
doing.
Um, I was thinking about thisbecause one thing that would
absolutely terrify me would beto try and write a children's
story, because I think that mustbe really, really difficult
thinking of my eight-year-oldniece.
She is a tough crowd, and eventhough, say maybe you're you're
talking about a 500-wordmanuscript versus 80,000 words,
(03:44):
that that would still absolutelyterrify me.
So I just think it's justdifferent demands um according
to to the genre, but it's it'sall hard work, hard but
rewarding.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Yes, definitely.
It's so funny you say thatbecause I think every writer
dreads writing something shorterthan the actual manuscript.
From um, I would never alsowrite a children's book.
I think it would be way toodifficult.
But I also have a tough timewith blurbs.
I'm like, why can I write like80,000 words that I can't write
this, like, you know, 300-wordblurb for the back of the book?
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
So yeah, that's a really good example, actually.
Yeah, because that's more likesales copy, isn't it?
And that's that's always hardfor writers, I think.
Yes, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
All right.
So in the book, you talk aboutsome deeply personal themes like
love and loss.
Um, you talk about uh love andloss from not just from a love
perspective, like you know,relationship, but also family.
And so how did you decide howmuch you were going to reveal
and how much you wanted to keepprivate?
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
I I try to stick to um the maxim of Lucia Berlin's
where she talks about writingemotional truths, uh, which is
kind of self-explanatory.
But um, for me, that kind ofmanifests as a test that I give
myself.
So once I've written somethingthat, as you say, is quite
personal, I kind of try and stepback and ask myself, almost set
(05:06):
like my ask myself, ask mywriting self, um, if if that
feels authentic to me and if itand authentic to what I'm trying
to express and to to anybody uhreading it.
So if it passes that test, umthen I leave it in.
But I do also, as I justmentioned, feel some separation.
Um, so even if something is verypersonal, and even if, say, I'm
(05:29):
writing about it likepractically word for word or
verbatim to how it how ithappened, and there's no
fictionalizing, it still in someway feels like an account, like
I'm reporting on my on my ownlife, if that makes sense.
So, and it's funny because thisquestion really did make me
think about that process, and Ithink it's is important to me to
have some distance.
(05:50):
So, although it is very personaland it's very authentic, and the
emotional truth is there,there's still something that's
left over that's just mine and abit more private.
So, I think that that kind ofseparation helps um me decide as
well, kind of how far to takeit, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
Yeah, no, it was beautifully done.
I I really enjoyed it.
So, the book, of course, um it'sthe six routes through Madrid.
So, Spain, what role did Spain,both its culture and landscape,
play as almost a character inyour book?
Because it's a pretty importantpart of the plot behind it.
SPEAKER_02 (06:24):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
And moving to Madrid withwithout a doubt was was my I
think my catalyst to startwriting, although I had written
in the past up and my it waslike suddenly I'd found um the
prism through which to examinethese topics that I'd always
been interested in, just ingeneral, but also as a reader.
(06:44):
So, like identity, belonging,and then also language and
identity, what happens when yousort of move not only country
but into a second language aswell.
So all that had still alwaysinterested me in the UK, but but
then coming here and having thisbackdrop of the unfamiliar, this
foreign place, that that waslike where I could find my my
(07:06):
incision point into this kind ofbig topic.
So in that way, I think um Spainand Madrid are well that one
word that came to mind was likea winged man in a way.
So, like, you know, she's thereor wing woman, she's kind of
there, um just helping me outwith uh with these big topics.
(07:28):
But although maybe a better wayto put it is she is like more of
a character, as you say.
So in that way, more of like aperson in the sense of someone
to bounce things off, reflectback to me these these ideas of
identity and who are you in thisnew place after you decide to
uproot yourself and then replantyourself, and how much of you
(07:48):
actually changes or how much ofyou actually is just who you
are, and that's who you are nomatter where you are in the
world.
So I think Madrid, she's likethe she is a character in the
sense that she allows me tobounce those questions off the
city, of the place, and you makeme reflect on on them with that
kind of yeah, background.
That was a bit complicated.
SPEAKER_01 (08:10):
No, I love it.
It just totally makes sense,especially when you when you
read the book.
Um because you're you're you aregoing through these different
points and these differentintersections and even different
experiences, like you know, thethe summers, uh the parties in
the summer, and you know, yourexperience with that and what's
kind of going on in thebackground, you know, in the
(08:31):
city around you, while this, youknow, without spoiling it, but
without you know, this uhexperience that you're having
with someone.
So um very well done.
So let's talk about those linesbetween fact and fiction.
Um, I think when people readyour book, they probably assume
(08:53):
that the entire thing iscompletely nonfiction.
Um but like we mentioned, andlike you said earlier, you sort
of draw this line between thetwo.
I don't know if that's where thetitle came into play, by the
way, but I I think it was playedvery well because there is it's
either you know, like a linethat you you've drawn in real
life or just kind of print itout.
(09:14):
Um, but you're you're yeah,that's that was it.
You're right.
Okay, good.
Because I was like, wow, thattitle is like perfect.
Um your book weaves togetherthese essays and fiction
together.
So, how did you decide where tostay true again to that lived
experience and where tofictionalize it?
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
I kind of want to say it wasn't a decision in a
way, um or not uh an exactlyconscious one because and it
comes back again to like LuciaBoleyn and her idea of emotional
truth.
Uh so in that way, I'm always Iwill always follow the story
over the over the facts such asthey are.
Um, because well, I think we'vejust we discussed this at uh in
(09:58):
another event, but um, you know,how much can you say something
is objectively true anyway,especially if you have like
different perspectives on it andum people live it differently.
Like the quote actually that I'mgoing to share later is
literally just an account ofsome friends eating eating ice
cream.
But I know that if I asked thosetwo friends who do exist, like
(10:19):
what was your experience ofthat, they would come up with
complete something completelydifferent.
They might not even remember inthe first place.
So uh so for me, I think thestory is always going to be more
important over like the hard,cold facts.
Um but I mentioned earlier aboutalso experimenting with uh
genres and things, and and Iremember when I discovered
(10:42):
creative nonfiction, because upuntil then I had been writing
what I would just blanketly callfiction, but was very much
closely based on my life and myexperiences.
And then I kind of discoveredthis creative nonfiction felt to
me like a middle way in a sense.
But then I thought, well, hangon, no, it's still non-fiction.
So, you know, I'm not an expertin in anything.
(11:03):
I can't write non-fiction,whether it's creative or or not.
And then from there I realized,well, the only thing I can be an
expert in is like my own life.
So I can have authority over mythoughts and my feelings because
they're mine.
So I can talk about those withauthority, but the rest I I
always want to leave to to thereader to to draw their own
(11:25):
conclusions about.
So that was a long way around ofsaying I try to stay true to my
truths and like what to me isthe emotional truth of a story,
but everything else is up forgrabs, basically.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Awesome.
Yeah, totally.
I I get it.
And it's um, it just worked out.
I like I said, I I I don't Ithink when I read it, and I I
like I said, I think a lot ofreaders that I've spoken to who
have read this book as well, weall kind of say the same thing.
It doesn't really matter that itthat we're trying to, you know,
it doesn't, it's not like we'resitting there with a microscope
going, did this really happen toJane?
(12:00):
Did it not happen to Jane?
It's just beautiful the way it'swritten and it feels authentic.
Um but I think we look for thattoo in fiction in some, at least
some of us, maybe not likesci-fi or fantasy, but when
you're reading like uh literaryfiction or even um even
thrillers, you're looking forsome kind of like I don't know,
(12:21):
like it has to feel real in away, you know, those emotions
have to feel real in a way.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
It's like you said, authenticity, I think is the
word, isn't it?
And and as long as that kind oftruth is there, you kind of will
go with the with with the story.
SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
Yes, for sure.
What are the risks and rewardsof blending fact and fiction, do
you think?
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
Yeah, I um I think you have more freedom to invent,
of course, with fiction, but butthen you also have have a frame.
This is the way I see it anyway.
So although I'm kind of usingthe word facts lightly, but uh
but you know, you do have kindof a framework of of uh of fact
or something that actuallyhappened, and then within that
(13:07):
like perimeter, that usefullimit of of the real, then you
can just go mad and inventstuff.
So for me, it's like the perfectcombination of uh giving, yeah,
giving you a limit so that youyou have that incision point
like I was talking aboutearlier, but then once you're in
there, you can sort of do whatyou like with the rest, which is
(13:27):
fun.
I I I like that way of writing.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Yeah, for sure.
And do you see this hybrid formas becoming more common or
appealing for writers?
SPEAKER_02 (13:38):
That's a really interesting question and a big
topic in in writing and andpublishing, as I'm sure
listeners will will know withthe uh sort of recent um
controversies around like thesalt path and that kind of
thing.
Well, although that wasobviously the controversy there
was that it was told readerswere told it was one thing and
(13:58):
then it wasn't necessarily.
So I think that kind of gets tothe the center of that question
in a way, that's how you set upthose expectations with readers.
So I think people, readersprobably maybe like do like this
hybrid form, as you say, for theauthenticity, but you do have to
kind of have be honest with yourreader and set up those
(14:19):
expectations.
So they know that it's a blend,they know that it's hybrid, they
know that's you know, yeah, thatit's a mixture of fact and
fiction, but but as long as theyknow that when they're reading,
and like we know this is readerstoo, then then that informs the
journey that they go on.
So if you don't sort of firsthave that conversation with
them, well that conversation inthe loose sense, they uh you
(14:41):
know it changes the experience,and I think that's when readers
could feel a bit deceived.
So I think it's yes popular, butyou just have to be kind of
upfront about how much is trueand how much isn't, or at least
that there's a mixture.
SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
Definitely.
No, I think uh I think you setit up pretty well and it was it
was clear.
But again, I think, you know,just going back to what I said
earlier, I think even though weknow it's it's fact and it's
fiction, we still, I mean, Idon't know, it just felt so
real.
I don't know how to describe itwithout telling people, just go
read it, you'll see what I mean.
But that's great.
(15:16):
I'm glad to hear that for sure.
Well, let's um let's move toprose and style.
So readers often describeliterary fiction as lyrical or
poetic, but how do you approachprose that's beautiful but not
like overwrought?
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
Hmm.
Yeah, I think it's partly taste,I think, because um I'm a member
of some book clubs, so as areader, I notice things that for
me are are a bit overdone, otherpeople enjoy.
So I guess there's there'salways um horses for courses,
but uh um for me, yeah, it'sdefinitely a fine balance.
(15:51):
Like one thing that comes tomind is I I really like a good
simile.
But if you put if the writerputs too many in, like
especially on the same page, andthen I get really irritated.
Like if everything else is likesomething else, then what is
actually happening here?
And I think they they're verybeautifully when they're well
done, but overused.
Yeah, as a as a reader, I getreally irritated.
(16:13):
So um that's well, that's onething that always jumps out at
me.
But I do have a few moretechniques as well, if uh if you
want me to go on.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
Yes, yes, definitely.
We definitely want to know likethe techniques that you use to
polish your sentences withoutusing that clarity.
Because I know I am definitelyguilty of this.
You will find out soon enough,I'm sure.
But um I uh I know what you meanabout like the simile usage.
Um, it can get overused, um, butit's easy, but there's got to be
(16:42):
a better way to do it.
So, what is your like, you know,your go-to, or what is your
advice for that?
SPEAKER_02 (16:49):
I used to have above above my desk, it I should put
it back up because it just felldown.
But it basically was a quotefrom uh Maggie Nelson that said,
wash it clean.
And that's always what I kind ofhave in my mind.
So yeah, basically removeanything that is superfluous, or
another quote which was fromsomebody else who has name I
(17:09):
can't remember, is uh removeanything that isn't useful or
beautiful.
So anything that yeah, thatisn't uh doing work in in the
narrative or is beautiful in itsown right.
So I have both of those thingsin my mind all the time, but um,
but it's really interesting whatyou say about clarity because uh
maybe I take that too much toheart because a piece of
feedback I often get on on earlydrafts is that I'm there isn't
(17:33):
enough detail.
So I've like washed it tooclean.
And yeah, you can prunesomething back and prune it and
prune it, it ends up just notreally making any sense and and
confusing the reader.
So so I do try and yeah, wash itclean, but now I have to also
add to that don't confusepeople.
So yeah, I have to keep both ofthose in mind.
(17:54):
But um and similes, yeah.
Similes I just try and avoid ifI can because they're too
tempting.
They're extremely tempting.
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
Oh my goodness.
All right, well, how do youhandle pacing in a book where
theme and reflection are just asimportant as the plot?
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
Yeah, that's a really big one.
Um, I'm not sure I do handle itvery well, to be honest.
Um, I feel like plot alwayssuffers um over theme for me.
Yeah, it's uh it's a tricky one.
Um I think what I try and do isjust uh make sure there is a
journey there.
So even if it's very subtle,very subtle, very small, like
(18:35):
there's still some movement fromfrom A to B.
So something has changed fromthe beginning to the end.
Um so yeah, that's actuallysomething I also I definitely
have to also be aware of becauseyeah, for me it's easier to just
go off into a little likeidentity rabbit hole in there
and forget that there actuallyneeds to be a plot there.
(18:56):
So yeah, I'm not sure I dohandle it, but I um I handle it
by trying to be aware of it.
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
Oh my goodness.
Well, you did great.
I I wouldn't even know that thatwas even a struggle.
So I'll do which writers orbooks do you think have
influenced your voice the most?
SPEAKER_02 (19:15):
Oh, that's like the best question and the worst
question, I think, isn't it, fora writer?
But I am thinking about it, I Ithink I'm a bit of a magpie,
especially since I've beenliving in in Spain, it's a
little bit harder to get hold ofbooks in English, so I'll just
kind of take anything that'savailable.
And that was good because it'skind of expanded my reading
(19:36):
experiences.
And and in that way, I think I'ma bit sort of a magpie.
So I'll, you know, there'sthings that I'll kind of take on
board because I'm reading fromdifferent places, but I do think
probably my it was that's mysister sending me her reading
list when I was like just 15 or14.
Uh, and I think reading all ofthat post-modern and
(19:57):
post-colonial fiction, I thinkthat's where that had the
biggest influence, influence onme in terms of like themes
again, back to identity andlanguage and everything.
Um, I think that's where thatbegan and it stayed with me.
Uh, but after that, then when Idiscovered multilingual writers
like uh Lucia Berlin, who Imentioned earlier, they her and
(20:18):
people like writers like herreally showed me what you can do
on a line level with language,which is just that little bit
unexpected or outside of thenorm of somebody that maybe only
writes in one language.
Um so those two come those twowere definitely like the big
influences, I think.
Like the yeah, the identitythemes and then the language,
(20:38):
the multilingual writers.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
Very nice.
All right, so let's come back tothe editor's desk for a minute.
So, as a developmental editor,how does your editing work
influence your writing?
SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
I do think working as an editor means that I'm
stricter with my with my ownwriting.
Like I have no problem killingmy darlings.
Like that's not just not anissue for me.
In fact, like I said before, Ioften kill too many of them and
then had to add some back ins.
But that does not pain me in anyway.
And I think um I think that'spartly to do with working as an
(21:16):
editor as well.
And before working with ModernOdyssey, I was working at um a
big Spanish publisher, whichmainly published educational
material.
So that also really taught me somuch.
Like, although the actualmaterial wasn't particularly
particularly literary, that'shard to say.
It taught me so much aboutprecision, uh, especially on a
(21:37):
line level.
So that in those books, in thateducational material, every
single word had to earn itsplace, but it also had to be
perfectly like clear and crispwhat it was saying.
So I really took that, I Inoticed that I started to take
that forward into my own writingas well, when I would be sort of
editing and thinking, hang on aminute, is that is this sentence
(21:58):
actually you know clear?
And do I really need this and doI really need that?
So that really helped, I think.
Uh well, I hope so.
No, I love that.
And I think then working withmonodyssey gave me like a nice
complimentary skill.
And you've spoken with Maria,and she's very much into the
idea of letting stories surfacein in whatever way they want to
(22:19):
surface, which is reallybeautiful.
And I think before working withMaria, I was a bit stricter in
in that sense of I wanted tokind of kind of put the story
into a box in a way, I guess.
So so now working with her, uh Irealize I can I can let stories
just unfold.
So I think that's two nice kindof lessons that I've had.
(22:40):
Like one, be strict on the linelevel, but also let the story
kind of do its thing as well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
Yes.
I love that line you used.
Every word has to earn its placein your book.
That's excellent.
Um, gonna that is gonna be thething that I put on my corkboard
in the back.
I'm gonna I'm gonna use that.
Very nicely done.
All right.
What mistakes do you see writersmaking when they're tackling
literary fiction?
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Yeah, that's um that's a good one.
I think probably back to theoverwriting a little bit, um,
and going too too head-on intoreflection and and the theme and
and making sure that's I mean,this isn't everyone, obviously.
This is just yeah, somethingI've noticed.
Um, and I don't want to say thatI don't do it either, like we we
(23:28):
all have our weak spots, but umyeah, so like the theme and
reflection has to be very finelybalanced with story, so i.e.
plot.
And like I said, this issomething I have to be aware of
as well.
So that you might have somethingthat's very beautiful on a
line-by-line level, but it doeshave to have this nice
supporting like scaffold there.
So there needs to be, thereneeds to be a journey and it
(23:50):
needs to be kind of hemmed in ina sense, in a sense that yeah,
there's a there's a departurepoint and an ending point.
So I think maybe especially withnewer writers, as you're kind of
experimenting with your voice,and it's fun to just kind of
keep writing and thinking andexploring, and that is great.
But and maybe some people wouldlike to read that.
(24:11):
I suppose it's kind of stream ofconsciousness, but yeah, for me,
you also need um structurearound that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
Yeah, I agree.
And um, all right, so whatadvice would you give to indie
authors who want to experimentwith a hybrid storytelling?
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
Yeah, that's a good question too.
Um I think maybe back to lettingthe story unfold as it as it
wants to a little bit, just tryand clear your mind of any
ideas, any preconceptions, andthen just start writing.
So let the story be what itwants to be, and then you can go
(24:49):
back and and give it thisstructure that I mentioned.
So that kind of balance betweenexperimental but but but
thoughtfully done.
So yeah, I think just go for it,write, write in whatever way the
story wants to be written, andthen and then but then go back
and and add in that thatscaffolding.
And kill all your darlings.
And kill yeah, not too many.
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
Yeah, not too many.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
Okay, I have been dying to ask you this question.
You're an editor.
Does the editor need an editor?
SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
Absolutely, yes, absolutely, no doubt about it.
And I'm glad you asked.
Um, yes, we we all need thesedistant eyes on our work.
Um, and for me, it's liketherapists need therapists, it's
the same thing, absolutely thesame thing.
There's just so you know, wethere's so much, only so much
that you can see in your ownwork.
(25:42):
But um, and I think, yeah, ifyou do work as an editor,
hopefully you probably have aslightly wider vision in that
sense, but you still do needsomebody outside of the the work
to come in and go, hang on aminute, it's this here, get rid
of that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Very good.
I I love that you are uh uh youalso um you are freely admitting
that you need an editor,everybody needs an editor.
And I've said this and from thebeginning, I think editing is if
you're gonna spend moneyanywhere, it would be this.
Um I think it's the mostimportant part of the whole
(26:16):
piece because you can have abeautiful cover, you can nail
your blurb on the back, but ifthe inside of your book uh isn't
properly edited, it's gonna fallflat for readers.
SPEAKER_02 (26:26):
So I I do agree, and not just because I am an editor.
Yeah, you don't yeah, you do allof that work and then you don't
want to your reader to open upthe book all excitedly and then
kind of yeah, be pulled outbecause there is just like stuff
that could have been easilyfixed if somebody else had seen
it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
Yes, totally agree.
All right, the ever-popular InkStarter Lightning Round Jane.
Here we go.
All right.
First question favorite Spanishword or phrase you picked up
since moving?
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Oh, such a lot to choose from.
Um I'm gonna go with uh the wordganas, which is actually you
don't kind of use it on its own,you usually use it within a
phrase, but it's basically likethe same in English as, you
know, do you feel like doingsomething?
Do you fancy doing something?
You would say, Do you have ganasfor this?
And it's just so useful in somany contexts, and it's so much
(27:17):
shorter than saying it inEnglish, to the point that
sometimes now I just I get lazyand I just insert it into
English anyway, and just say,Oh, do you want to have you have
you got Ganners to see a filmtonight?
People like, well.
It's just for me, it's just sucha great useful word.
I'm sorry, I'm not very good atlightning round because I just
(27:38):
taught too much.
SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
Oh no, you're fine.
Oh my gosh, you're fine.
All right, a book that changedyour perspective on life or
writing.
SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Uh well, if I'm such a boy, I always make reference
to Nabakov, but um, he deservesto be referred to in in my own
personal literary pantheonbecause when I when I discovered
him, I just never read anyonewho wrote like that.
And he really showed me thiskind of this phrase I keep
seeing around lately about sayit wrong to say it right.
(28:08):
So his it wasn't that hisEnglish was incorrect.
Um Lolita was the first novelthat he wrote originally in
English, and that was the onethat I discovered him through.
So he wasn't incorrect, um, butit was just unusual, and and
then coupled with his talent asa storyteller was just a really
arresting combination.
And I remember lending it to afriend actually, you know, doing
(28:29):
that thing where you're like,you have to read this, you have
to read this.
And I was with him when hefinished it, and he just closed
the book and he just was like,Why would anyone ever write
another novel again?
I think that kind of summed itup for me.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Very nice.
All right, red sangria or whitewine chain.
SPEAKER_02 (28:47):
This is an easy word, white wine.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Agreed.
SPEAKER_01 (28:52):
All right, favorite quote from your own book.
I've I've before you evenanswer, okay, I want you to know
that I have about 10 quotes thatI love from your book, but I
would love to know yours.
Do you have one that you justwrote and you're like, ah,
that's it?
SPEAKER_02 (29:06):
It's so hard because um uh yeah, it probably changes
like hour on hour, minute onminute.
Um thank you for havingmultiple.
Uh the one I decided to go withwas because I've got summer
holidays on my mind today,because I'm about to take my
summer holiday.
And also I've been thinking alot about writing in place
(29:28):
because I'm setting up an eventabout that in Madrid.
So I've got those two things onmy mind.
So I have one that I picked out,which is basically about like
going out for an ice cream on ahot summer's night.
Did you want me to read it or doI Yes?
Go ahead.
I was like, hang on, do I justchoose it or do I read it?
Okay, so I'll I'll read it.
(29:50):
Natalia, Audrey, and I stand inPlata Chueca, like one of those
bad jokes.
A Venezuelan born in Argentina,a French Canadian, and me.
The ice cream is cold and softand sweet.
I see some people I know andraise a sticky hand in greeting.
When I get home a few hourslater, the cat is waiting for
(30:11):
me, having, for reasons knownonly to himself, forsaken his
own evening passeo.
I get into bed, a slight breezecuts through the heat every now
and then.
He curls up in the crook of mylegs, and we stay that way until
morning.
SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
I love it.
And if somebody can't pick upthe book after that, I don't
know.
I'm just not sure about that.
Yes, it's the way you bring itall to life, I think, was the
best part for me in your book,is just the the way you describe
things.
It just, I don't know.
It just works.
So I love your quote that youpicked out.
(30:47):
Thank you so much.
Of course.
And then, all right, one lastone.
One writing rule that you'dbreak anytime for the love of
the story.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
Well, yeah, I'm a fan of breaking the rules, I
think, in general, but I thinkI'll go back to that one.
Um say it wrong to say it right.
So I would break I would breakthe rule of making sure
everything is uh technicallycorrect.
Break that rule in order to saysomething in a more beautiful,
interesting way.
(31:18):
Very nice.
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
I love that.
All right, and your five besttips for writing literary
fiction.
SPEAKER_02 (31:25):
This was much harder than the five tips for writing.
Oh, sorry, editing, actually.
So I'm not sure what's saysabout me.
And some of them might overlap,actually.
But um, these are the ones thatimmediately came to mind.
So not sexy at all, but listsare very useful.
So depending on how long thepieces that you're you're
(31:47):
sitting down to write, um, makean outline before you start,
even if you don't stick to it.
Uh, and even if it's a longer,like a novel, like make a
spreadsheet.
I'm gonna, you know, do it.
You don't have to stick to it,but it gives you, you know, you
have that lovely, you know, thatlovely tingling of a new idea
that just won't leave you alone.
And I think it's good to followthat, but also before maybe you
(32:11):
really start writing, just thinkabout okay, I need I need my
themes, and but I need a storyas well.
So just have a little thinkabout that.
So, yeah, lists is number one orplans.
Um, number two would be uh it'skind of a little bit related,
slash in opposition to the firstone, like but definitely just
(32:32):
write, right, right, right,right.
Um even if you never look atthat list again, you've done the
groundwork.
So when you come to write, youcan write with no censorship and
then come back and edit itlater.
So just write without censoringyourself.
Um, but then when you do come toedit, be rigorous.
And I would say ask yourself,and this is what I do for sure,
(32:54):
over and over again, like everyfive minutes, what is this
about?
What am I trying to say?
And why should people care aboutit?
I think people call it the sowhat test.
So just keep asking yourselflike why, why, why, why?
Um number four is once I have agood draft, uh like a good solid
draft, I will print it out andI'll I feel like I might mention
(33:17):
this one in the editing round.
But uh, you know, there'sthere's it's worth saying again.
Uh so I print it out and I dotwo edits.
So one and then with differentcolor pens.
So one's uh for themes and plot.
So that's like the horizontal,your plot, and the vertical your
themes.
Um so I do that edit, and thenafter that I go line by line, uh
(33:39):
word by word, like I mentionedearlier.
Like, is this word pulling itsway?
And anything that makes mecringe, even like five percent,
it's gotta go.
So any cringe is out.
And then the last one would bewhen you are looking at the line
by line level.
Um it was five tips.
Yes, okay, good.
(34:00):
Um, when you're looking at lineby line level, always look at
opportunities where you can saysomething just a little bit
differently.
Uh so I was thinking about, Idon't know if you remember one
of the stories in my book, itjust starts with, so anyway.
And I picked that up fromanother writer who not that
exact phrase, but uh who startedtheir stories just with like
(34:22):
kind of a weird construction orlike grammatically a bit off,
but it just was so much moreinteresting than so I was in a
house in the mountains and thenblah blah blah.
So I don't know, just for me, Ilike I that kind of thing of
appeals as a reader, but also asa writer.
So just to look for where youcan just change up a little bit,
you know.
It's it's good that you're clearabout what you're saying and
(34:43):
you're you're placing the readerin the story, but can you do
that a slightly more interestingway?
Smile.
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
Awesome.
I love it.
I am gonna take some of these.
I'm gonna put your quote on mycorkboard.
I've had so much fun with youtoday.
So a line drawn or printed SixRoutes Through Madrid by my
friend Jane Marshall.
Where can listeners find yourbook?
SPEAKER_02 (35:07):
In the bookshop.
Uh so go into your localbookshop and ask for it, they
can get it for you.
Um, or you can go to the ModernOdyssey website, which is
modernodyssebooks.com, and thatwill take you through to places
online where you can buy it aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (35:22):
All right.
And if they're writers and theyare interested in your freelance
developmental editing, where canthey connect with you?
SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
Um thank you, Fraski.
Uh, you can go to my website,janemarshall.com, and there's a
contact form there where you canget in touch, and I'll be happy
to speak to anybody.
I love working with writers.
SPEAKER_01 (35:44):
And uh, what is next for you as both a writer and an
editor?
SPEAKER_02 (35:49):
Oh, I was gonna say my holiday, who's the next thing
in the career realm.
Well, I do, I am working on twothings simultaneously for
writing.
So something that in some wayswould might be like the second
volume after a line drawn orprinted.
(36:11):
Um, so like a really a relatedkind of um short novel.
And on the other side, um I'mwant to write a collection of
short stories, but and I havethe theme, but that's about all
I've all I've got so far.
So we'll see how that developsand editing.
Um, I'm just about to finish upa big old manuscript for a
client that's been great.
(36:32):
I've been working on it allsummer, so I've been immersed in
this this world that this uhthat the writer created.
Um also have my holiday.
So after that, after that, umwe're going to be doing some
events as well in Madrid.
So a bit of a mixed bag once Iget back off holiday.
Sorry, I'm so obsessed with myholiday.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
I would be obsessed with the holiday too.
I hope you have so much fun.
Thank you so much for joining meagain, Jane.
This has been a pleasure, and Ilook forward to speaking again
with you soon.
SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you.
SPEAKER_01 (37:07):
Thanks.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Traditionally
Self-Published.
If this episode helped you,subscribe, leave a review, and
share with your author andreader friends alike.
And be sure to check the firstepisode where I share a bit
about how this all can be andwhy building a helpful community
is so important.
Until next time, be bold, writesmart, and turn those papers.
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